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Channing
03-04-2007, 11:21 PM
I have seen a number of posts upset with Carolina for continuing to run their offense in the last minute. I would just like people to take a step back and realize Duke was not letting up at all. They were pressuring full court and still taking threes themselves. I do not believe it was unclassy at all for UNC to run their offense. You cant expect them to run the clock out with the Duke D coming at them in full effect. I think it would have been more of a slap in the face for them to empty their bench with a few minutes left than to keep playing hard.

just my $.02

tux
03-05-2007, 09:45 AM
UNC having a handful of their regular rotation in doesn't really bother me. The game is 40 minutes, and everyone's free to play as they see fit. I think one difference that I see between K and William's approach though, is that in the last couple of minutes of a decided game, Duke may have starters in, but they are pretty much running out the clock. UNC was still trying to get fast-break dunks --- Hansborough should have dribbled back out when he got the rebound at that point --- no sense going up for another dunk... But I don't blame him; he's 19 and it's a rivalry game, etc. I think Gerald was being very very aggressive. He often goes up for vicious blocks, and I think the moment got the best of him. Without the blood, I think it may have just been a technical foul but not an ejection.

The State game seems like a big red flag to me, no pun intended. I'm having memories of 97... Someone reassure me that we'll see Friday in the ACC tourney...

Highlander
03-05-2007, 10:02 AM
You cant expect them to run the clock out with the Duke D coming at them in full effect.

Just for the record, Duke always runs the clock out every time they have a comfortable lead late in the game and the other team's defense comes at them in full effect. So what people "expected" of UNC is what Duke does in similar situations.

Apparently that was too much to ask. UNC took 4 shots during the last 45 seconds of the game, 3 while the shot clock was off, 3 of which were dunks or dunk attempts. All of those were with a 12 point lead. So yes, I think UNC was trying to run up the score on Duke.

I'm not criticizing Williams for leaving one of his starters in late in a game that was over. I am a bit disappointed that UNC felt the need to continue to stretch out the lead in that situation.

Just to be clear, this discussion has no bearing on Henderson's foul.

BluBones
03-05-2007, 10:17 AM
Just for the record, Duke always runs the clock out every time they have a comfortable lead late in the game and the other team's defense comes at them in full effect.

That's what Duke does this year, because they are thin. It makes sense to slow the game down and save the player's legs. When Duke has been as deep as UNC they have come at teams full force for the full 40 minutes. I have no problem at all w/ UNC trying to score as much on us as they can. We're Duke.

bird
03-05-2007, 10:32 AM
No quarter asked, no quarter given. Ok by me.

Highlander
03-05-2007, 10:32 AM
I disagree. Pretty much every single game I can remember from the past 10 years, when Duke has a comfortable lead and the shot clock is off, they don't try to score. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Duvall
03-05-2007, 10:35 AM
I disagree. Pretty much every single game I can remember from the past 10 years, when Duke has a comfortable lead and the shot clock is off, they don't try to score. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

And? It's still not something worth complaining about.

BluBones
03-05-2007, 10:38 AM
I disagree. Pretty much every single game I can remember from the past 10 years, when Duke has a comfortable lead and the shot clock is off, they don't try to score. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

In 1999, winning by 20 wasn't enough. 30 wasn't enough. 40 wasn't enough. Every minute we had the ball the coaching staff wanted the team to score quickly. They did just that. The usual suspects criticized Coach K for that, but his point was he didn't want anyone on the team to have muscle memory for slacking off ever. He had the depth to play that way that year, so he did.

bird
03-05-2007, 10:44 AM
In past years, I recall distinct pleasure in blowout scores, anxiously waiting to reach a 100, "more than double" and "more than triple." If UNC wants to try to put one down rather than running out the clock, I feel in a poor position to criticize based on sportsmanship. Whether it is smart basketball is another question.

A-Tex Devil
03-05-2007, 10:49 AM
True. But if Tyler is going to go up like that into 3 of our defenders after an offensive board on a frickin FREE THROW miss, we oughta continue to play hard too. So I'm not complaining about Carolina's play as much as I am the anti-Duke crowd and people like Forde's rants that Duke should have stopped trying to foul/play tough defense. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this board, but I'd love to see someone explain to me why Duke shouldn't play tough D or foul Hansborough if he's gonna go after offensive boards with the shot clock off?

The elbow was an accident. There are no 2 ways about it.

camion
03-05-2007, 10:54 AM
I don't remember the end of game situations in '99 that way, but that's really irrelevant. It's not a coach's job to set ettiquette for the other team. He coaches his own team and deals with whatever the other coach is doing. So, if another team is trying to run up the score, coach accordingly and stop them. Don't complain.

I think it's perfectly all right for Duke to pull the ball out with a safe lead and that's the way I would prefer it to be done. If someone else doesn't do it that way then that's fine too. Deal with what's happening on the court.

As far as the trailing team continuing to apply pressure I also have no problem with that. It's good training for future games and I would expect most coaches to do it.

bluebear
03-05-2007, 10:57 AM
I remember winning by a lot in 99 but I don't remember us trying to score in the final minute when up big..could be true..just don't remember
As for reaching 100..I remember plenty of games when I wanted the team to score 100 but not reaching it because they chose instead to run out the clock..
The game was over when TH got that board..there was NO chance of Duke coming back..the shot clock was not about to expire..he could have passed it out or dribbled out himself..I'm not blaming him for getting hit in the nose..(GH was out of control on that play though does not deserve the suspension) but that is what happens when you play like that...you open up the possibility of your players being hurt either out of frustration or by pure accident..

crimsonandblue
03-05-2007, 10:58 AM
It's smart basketball to take a sure two rather than pull the ball out where you'll be fouled or could turn the ball over. Had Duke stopped pressing and fouling, I'm certain UNC would have pulled the ball out. But when you're pressing full court with a minute to play and cut the lead from 15 to 11, when exactly was UNC to throw on the brakes? Frasor pulled the ball out and was fouled. He missed the free throw. Hansbrough rebounded and was fouled. Hansbrough rebounded the missed free throw under the basket and would have been wise to pitch it out, but didn't and...

I seem to recall folks on this board last year lamenting Redick racking up 37 minute performances in blowouts. Is it just the last minute that's the magic no starters period?

That said, this isn't a first for Roy. Kansas beat Kentucky 150-95 when Pitino refused to stop pressing. Roy's position was basically that if they're going to keep playing, we're going to keep playing. Kentucky later pounded us to return the favor once Pitino got his championship teams together.

Highlander
03-05-2007, 11:38 AM
Bluebones, please re-read my post. I said when Duke has a comfortable lead and the shot clock is off.... I'm not talking about margin of victory as you implied. If you have the ball in your hand with a lead and 35+ seconds on the clock, you have to shoot the ball. So you run a set to get a good shot. Duke did that with big leads. UNC did too. That's not my issue.

Once the shot clock goes off, you no longer have to shoot to win. You can dribble out the clock without penalty. THAT'S what Duke does in EVERY instance I can recall. UNC most clearly did not, in that they took 3 shots during the last 35 seconds of the game, including a three point attempt.

dball
03-05-2007, 11:39 AM
[QUOTE=tux;2605]... But I don't blame him; he's 19 and it's a rivalry game, etc. QUOTE]


Hansbrough is 21.

Duvall
03-05-2007, 11:42 AM
Once the shot clock goes off, you no longer have to shoot to win. You can dribble out the clock without penalty. THAT'S what Duke does in EVERY instance I can recall. UNC most clearly did not, in that they took 3 shots during the last 35 seconds of the game, including a three point attempt.

Who cares? It's not Roy's job to stop UNC from scoring.

Highlander
03-05-2007, 11:48 AM
Who cares? It's not Roy's job to stop UNC from scoring.

When the game is over, and the shot clock is off, it most certainly is the Coach's job to call off the attack. That's my opinion. I care. So sue me.

johnb
03-08-2007, 10:40 AM
Duke hardly ever gets blown out, but if we're getting smoked, and the other coach wants to use guys from his primary rotation until the bitter end, fine. And if they're in, they should play as well as they can. They're 20 and on television: do you really want them to practivce throwing balls into the stands. It's a good opportunity to practice slow ball (which Duke often does when it gets ahead), but I believe whoever's on the court should keep playing. It's not football, where you can just run the ball and run out the clock and try to not get somebody injured. Bball injuries are relatively unusual (compared to football).

And anyway, I dare a team with a 10 point lead with a minute to play to dog it against Duke. Our players are very talented and have a belief they can win. Carolina might have had a couple of starters in, but we were fouling and trying to score. We hadn't given up (nor should we), and so they hadn't.

And 1999 was unusual. I still think it was the most talented team we've ever had... they would have creamed even most Duke teams.

captmojo
03-08-2007, 12:05 PM
There is no such thing as a 12 point play. In all my 50 years of observation I've never seen one. Even the great comeback against the toiltles by JWill.

DukeVu
03-08-2007, 01:52 PM
It's smart basketball to take a sure two rather than pull the ball out where you'll be fouled or could turn the ball over. Had Duke stopped pressing and fouling, I'm certain UNC would have pulled the ball out. But when you're pressing full court with a minute to play and cut the lead from 15 to 11, when exactly was UNC to throw on the brakes? Frasor pulled the ball out and was fouled. He missed the free throw. Hansbrough rebounded and was fouled. Hansbrough rebounded the missed free throw under the basket and would have been wise to pitch it out, but didn't and...

I seem to recall folks on this board last year lamenting Redick racking up 37 minute performances in blowouts. Is it just the last minute that's the magic no starters period?

That said, this isn't a first for Roy. Kansas beat Kentucky 150-95 when Pitino refused to stop pressing. Roy's position was basically that if they're going to keep playing, we're going to keep playing. Kentucky later pounded us to return the favor once Pitino got his championship teams together.

A 'sure two'?? It looks more like a "Sure Bloody Nose" with multiple defenders under the basket.

kjo3444
03-08-2007, 03:48 PM
It's smart basketball to take a sure two rather than pull the ball out where you'll be fouled or could turn the ball over. Had Duke stopped pressing and fouling, I'm certain UNC would have pulled the ball out. But when you're pressing full court with a minute to play and cut the lead from 15 to 11, when exactly was UNC to throw on the brakes? Frasor pulled the ball out and was fouled. He missed the free throw. Hansbrough rebounded and was fouled. Hansbrough rebounded the missed free throw under the basket and would have been wise to pitch it out, but didn't and...


Exactly. People who are complaining that Carolina was 'running up the score' seem to forget that Frasor had just broken the press, and was retreating from the hoop with his back to the basket, 40 feet away from the basket, to run out the clock. And then was fouled by Paulus (his fifth). Not certain how that fits with the 'running up the score' meme.

Anyway, it's over - let's all watch some tourney hoops!