MBB: North Carolina at Miami

[Duke12]

...could be interesting

[Duvall]

...could be interesting

Two fouls on Johnson by the second TV timeout. Maybe the first.

[MChambers]

Two fouls on Johnson by the second TV timeout. Maybe the first.

And Kadji in foul trouble shortly thereafter.

[Albert]

And Kadji in foul trouble shortly thereafter.

And IC will respond with caterwauling about Seth Curry's travel.

[devildeac]

And Kadji in foul trouble shortly thereafter.

I already predicted on another thread that each of these guys would pick up 2 fouls in the lay-up line pre-game and Zeller and Henson would go wild from the opening tip.

[MChambers]

I already predicted on another thread that each of these guys would pick up 2 fouls in the lay-up line pre-game and Zeller and Henson would go wild from the opening tip.

When Henson hangs on the rim, Daniel Ewing will get the technical.

[Lar77]

When Henson hangs on the rim, Daniel Ewing will get the technical.


They only showed McAdoo's steal against UVa and running dunk about 20 times on the news. I'm not an expert on what constitutes a T in that situation, but none was called.

[Duvall]

They only showed McAdoo's steal against UVa and running dunk about 20 times on the news. I'm not an expert on what constitutes a T in that situation, but none was called.

In McAdoo's defense, he is not Andre Dawkins.

[DUKIE V(A)]

If Miami plays smart, aggressive basketball throughout, I like their chances for an upset. Larkin needs to take it to the hole repeatedly, and Johnson needs to stay in the game and clean up the glass. Anything short of that and they inch closer to an NIT bid.

[ChillinDuke]

If Miami plays smart, aggressive basketball throughout, I like their chances for an upset. Larkin needs to take it to the hole repeatedly, and Johnson needs to stay in the game and clean up the glass. Anything short of that and they inch closer to an NIT bid.

Agree with this.

I think Larkin is the biggest key for a Miami win. He needs to outplay Marshall from tip to buzzer which I believe he is capable of doing (offensively). Johnson needs to avoid foul trouble (which I also agree is probably not going to happen).

If these two things happen then I think Miami has a shot.

If either does not, I think Miami is in for it.

- Chillin

[MChambers]

They only showed McAdoo's steal against UVa and running dunk about 20 times on the news. I'm not an expert on what constitutes a T in that situation, but none was called.

Did the announcer call him James Michael McAdoo? Why do they use three names for him? I thought that was reserved for presidential assassins. His full name is James Michael Ray McAdoo, according to wikipedia (I know).

[BluDvlsN1]

Road game in Fla!
Really dislike rooting for Miami, all things considered!
But today is an exception, today, their our 2nd favorite team,
Unless I'm mistaken!! :cool:

[devildeac]

When Henson hangs on the rim, Daniel Ewing will get the technical.

I actually think they have forgotten about Daniel Ewing now as Dre seems to be the new target:mad:.

[oldnavy]

And IC will respond with caterwauling about Seth Curry's travel.

Goes way beyond the non travel call, they are complaining about the air ball shot by Ryan that they ruled was touched, the push on Zeller on the tip in, and of course HB was tripped when he charged at the end of the game. LOVE IT!!!!!

[hurleyfor3]

Don't waste your time. They'll lose again, but only when you least expect it.

[oldnavy]

I actually think they have forgotten about Daniel Ewing now as Dre seems to be the new target:mad:.

Can anyone remember seeing the hanging on the rim called in anyother game this year??

[elvis14]

Goes way beyond the non travel call, they are complaining about the air ball shot by Ryan that they ruled was touched, the push on Zeller on the tip in, and of course HB was tripped when he charged at the end of the game. LOVE IT!!!!!

I've heard every one of those multiple times from guys that are dead serious. These same guys give Duke 0 credit for winning; it was all refs or Zeller (they have thrown him under the bus all week, no support). Sickening.

When I read the thread topic the first thing that popped into my head: I think I effin hate Carolina, that's what I think

[biscuit30]

Can anyone remember seeing the hanging on the rim called in anyother game this year??

Nope and it seems other players hang on a lot longer than Dre did.

[elvis14]

Nope and it seems other players hang on a lot longer than Dre did.

Is that what people mean when they say "Duke gets all the calls"? :D

[throatybeard]

I have more trouble rooting for Miami than another other school over Carolina.

[Duvall]

I have more trouble rooting for Miami than another other school over Carolina.

Huh. Why? Miami basketball just hasn't made much of an impact during their time in the league.

[throatybeard]

Huh. Why? Miami basketball just hasn't made much of an impact during their time in the league.

Spillover animus from football. It's the same school.

UNC chess probably hasn't made a huge impact, but I'm not rooting for them.

[BluDvlsN1]

Given the circumstances, and with only two options!
I guess it boils down to a "best of the worst" option!:(

[gumbomoop]

Posted part of this on the "ACC's final 3 weeks thread." Belongs here right now.....

I saw a good amount of the second half of the recent Miami-FSU game, and what I saw seemed to confirm Larranaga's comment that Reggie doesn't recover quickly after a game. The Canes had one of those quick turnarounds, having played the late game last Thurs eve, then had to travel to FSU for early game Sat aft. In the second half, Bernard James took over, and Reggie just wore out. Glad he should be rested for the Heels tonight.

I don't remember much about the first Canes-Heels game in CH, except it seemed over in the first half. Box score says Dexter played well, so Heels might miss him if Malcolm Grant gets hot. Reggie and Kadji have to stay out of foul trouble, and DeQuan Jones has to get some rebounds when he subs in for either Johnson or Kadji. I assume Durand Scott will want to play Barnes rigorously and vigorously. Canes have to hit their 3s, and they shoot lots of them, maybe second most in ACC, behind Duke. Shane Larkin is playing well, and the Canes have good wing size off the bench to shoot 3s. Might be a really exciting game.

And I agree with devildeac that this is pretty close to a "play-in" game for the Canes.


Plus, I caught a few minutes of Lunardi on the phone on espn yesterday and he thinks Miami is one of the "first four out" so I hope the 'Canes realize tonight is one of their "play-in" games and they'd better bring a high quality effort

I'd guess the Canes' win over Duke is not quite enough to get them into the NCAAT. They need to win the ones they should win [home v. Wake and BC, @ Md], and 1 of the 3 toughies [home to UNC and FSU, @ NCSt]. That would get them to 10-6. Might as well start tonight, and plan to get to 11-5.

But I think the Heels will win. Is the crowd ever a factor down there?

[Duvall]

Reggie and Kadji have to stay out of foul trouble

That seems...unlikely.

[Bluedog]

Stadium looks empty in the upper level and not even full in lower level. I can't imagine that being the case if Duke came to town. Is Duke really that much bigger of a pull than UNC? I didn't think so, but maybe we are. Very strange to me that more people in Miami aren't interested in watching this game.

Edit: Reggie with two quick fouls. Sitting down after 3 minutes of game time.

[Duvall]

Two fouls on Johnson by the second TV timeout. Maybe the first.

3 minutes, 34 seconds.

[77devil]

3 minutes, 34 seconds.

9 minutes gone in the first half and no fouls called on UNC yet. Soft defense or?

[sporthenry]

It took 11 minutes for UNC to get 1 single foul called. Miami fans just had a nice tribute to Austin Rivers chanting his name at UNC after a timeout. Never saw/heard that before.

[SupaDave]

Stadium looks empty in the upper level and not even full in lower level. I can't imagine that being the case if Duke came to town. Is Duke really that much bigger of a pull than UNC? I didn't think so, but maybe we are. Very strange to me that more people in Miami aren't interested in watching this game.

I thought the same when UNC played Maryland.

[devildeac]

Stadium looks empty in the upper level and not even full in lower level. I can't imagine that being the case if Duke came to town. Is Duke really that much bigger of a pull than UNC? I didn't think so, but maybe we are. Very strange to me that more people in Miami aren't interested in watching this game.

Edit: Reggie with two quick fouls. Sitting down after 3 minutes of game time.


3 minutes, 34 seconds.


9 minutes gone in the first half and no fouls called on UNC yet. Soft defense or?


It took 11 minutes for UNC to get 1 single foul called. Miami fans just had a nice tribute to Austin Rivers chanting his name at UNC after a timeout. Never saw/heard that before.

This kinda stuff even has my level-headed/fair-minded wife shaking her head.

Has anyone posted these facts over on IC?

Sheesh. Un-freaking-believable.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

What concerns me about this UNC team is their focus. I've harped on it all season.

Barnes an Henson are both standing around way too much. They're watching plays, not getting involved in them when they are off they ball.

Bullock and Zellar are playing tough D.

Shooting is still a problem. Their confidence is starting to look low to take the good looks they do see.

I think they have to get Barnes some distance shots up in the second half because he's the only shooter wanting to shoot. If he can get a few to fall it would give the rest some confidence.

[cspan37421]

9 minutes gone in the first half and no fouls called on UNC yet. Soft defense or?

I would suggest that most of us chafe when someone points out foul differentials involving Duke. Better teams can play tough defense without fouling (as much). The real stats are a) the number of fouls called among those committed, and b) the number of fouls called when there was no foul committed. [all this based on replay, tv angles, etc).

If you had said "9 minutes gone and there have been 7 obvious fouls which were not called on UNC", that would be different. So would phantom calls on Miami. Call me crazy, but on the off chance that UNC did not foul in those 9 minutes, it seems that no fouls called on them is the right outcome.

Now in most cases, sure, refs will miss some. Are they systematically missing calls one way or another? Perhaps they're allowing more contact from both teams? Point is, foul differential is evidence of nothing by itself - and it's important for us to remember that, because it's usually brought up as evidence that K "works the refs" and thus has them in his pocket. A little application of the Golden Rule is appropriate here, IMO.

[sporthenry]

I would suggest that most of us chafe when someone points out foul differentials involving Duke. Better teams can play tough defense without fouling (as much). The real stats are a) the number of fouls called among those committed, and b) the number of fouls called when there was no foul committed. [all this based on replay, tv angles, etc).

If you had said "9 minutes gone and there have been 7 obvious fouls which were not called on UNC", that would be different. So would phantom calls on Miami. Call me crazy, but on the off chance that UNC did not foul in those 9 minutes, it seems that no fouls called on them is the right outcome.

Now in most cases, sure, refs will miss some. Are they systematically missing calls one way or another? Perhaps they're allowing more contact from both teams? Point is, foul differential is evidence of nothing by itself - and it's important for us to remember that, because it's usually brought up as evidence that K "works the refs" and thus has them in his pocket. A little application of the Golden Rule is appropriate here, IMO.

I completely disagree with this but the bolded part would seem to correct itself and make foul calls pretty equal would they not? Yes, some teams are more prone to foul calls and others are good at drawing calls but foul differential is a good indication of the type of game being called. 6 foul calls in the first 11 minutes to 1 on the other team usually means the refs are calling the game different for both teams. 6 fouls in 11 minutes puts you at 12 for the half and 24 for the game. That is a fairly high number which would indicate a fairly tight game yet to only have 1 called on the other team is rather absurd even if you are Duke and chucking up 3's.

I also don't think it was coincidence that you saw 4 straight called on UNC after it was 6-0 in favor of Miami at some point. Just like while Duke seemed to get screwed in the first half of the UNC game, you saw Duke get quite a few calls in the 2nd half. There are fouls on every play and you could have called over the back on UNC all game when they played Duke. It isn't so much about getting every call but when the refs call it very unequal which 6-1 would appear to be since it appeared both teams were playing similar.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Let's See...

Larkin a non-factor
Johnson in foul trouble
Miami fumbling away rebound after rebound
Miami not getting many calls
Still only down by 2...

I like their chances.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You guys are looking for bias calls that just aren't there.

Every trip down the floor, each way, has it's own decisions from the refs. They are allowing some physical play on both sides, and I'd bet the total number of fouls ends up about even in this one.

[Duvall]

I have no idea what sport these officials think they are watching. Nice hip check from McAdoo there.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Kadji having trouble finishing over Henson...

[DUKIE V(A)]

You guys are looking for bias calls that just aren't there.

Every trip down the floor, each way, has it's own decisions from the refs. They are allowing some physical play on both sides, and I'd bet the total number of fouls ends up about even in this one.

Won't be a good night for you if it does end up about even...

[SupaDave]

As much as I think the refs caused a few UNC swings, Miami has made WAY too many unforced turnovers. I count at least three passes out of bounds, one back court, a couple of times stepping on the line, a ball off the foot, and so on and so forth...

[DUKIE V(A)]

Nice game by Barnes...a couple key threes by Bullock...Good offensive rebounding and defense by Carolina...

[sporthenry]

You guys are looking for bias calls that just aren't there.

Every trip down the floor, each way, has it's own decisions from the refs. They are allowing some physical play on both sides, and I'd bet the total number of fouls ends up about even in this one.

Only in UNC land is the other team having 50% more fouls called against them even. 18-12? That didn't cost Miami the game although it took Reggie Johnson out of his game. Miami played very poorly but the point is, UNC is constantly getting the benefit of the calls yet everyone says it is Duke. UNC has led the league in foul differential even when they went 5-11 in conference.

It isn't really looking for a bias, but more just pointing statistics out. The game just isn't called the same way both ways or else I think Zeller and Henson would be a lot less aggressive on the offensive boards.

[UrinalCake]

Watching Reggie Johnson against UNC, I can't believe that is the same human being that went crazy against the Plumlees. He looks uncoordinated, has poor hands, has no elevation, and disappears on offense. He tries to dribble way too much in the paint. In one possession he got blocked twice, once by a guard. I know Henson and Zeller have some length, but how in the world did he drop 27 on us?!?

[_Gary]

Yeah, when talking about UNC and foul calls, it really is a pretty simple thing to just look at the stats. They don't lie. On top of that empirical evidence, my eye test tells me that UNC gets away with many more over the backs/push in the backs for offensive rebounds than any team I have ever seen. This has been a constant with the program for many, many years so there's no way it's going to change any time soon. But I'll be darned if someone is going to tell me I'm just looking at that from a biased point of view. Yes, I am biased. But the over the backs are clear as day and only UNC consistently gets away with it.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Only in UNC land is the other team having 50% more fouls called against them even. 18-12? That didn't cost Miami the game although it took Reggie Johnson out of his game. Miami played very poorly but the point is, UNC is constantly getting the benefit of the calls yet everyone says it is Duke. UNC has led the league in foul differential even when they went 5-11 in conference.

It isn't really looking for a bias, but more just pointing statistics out. The game just isn't called the same way both ways or else I think Zeller and Henson would be a lot less aggressive on the offensive boards.

UNC is plus 7 fouls per game this year. Duke is plus 2.6. Once again, UNC has a wide lead over every other team in the conference.

[BlueHeaven]

Stadium looks empty in the upper level and not even full in lower level. I can't imagine that being the case if Duke came to town. Is Duke really that much bigger of a pull than UNC? I didn't think so, but maybe we are. Very strange to me that more people in Miami aren't interested in watching this game.

Edit: Reggie with two quick fouls. Sitting down after 3 minutes of game time.



We went to the game at UM last year and it was packed as were all of the surrounding bars/restaurants beforehand. It was on a Sunday evening and there were tons of Dukies. I think people's disdain for Duke is always a big draw. BTW, we lost that game last year.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

UNC is plus 7 fouls per game this year. Duke is plus 2.6. Once again, UNC has a wide lead over every other team in the conference.

That's what happens when a team dedicates play to feeding two athletically gifted, offensively minded, 7 footers in the post.
And there's also a factor of teams often playing from behind and fouling to extend the games.

It's really not that complicated and certainly no vast conspiracy.

[gumbomoop]

I think they have to get Barnes some distance shots up in the second half because he's the only shooter wanting to shoot. If he can get a few to fall it would give the rest some confidence.

I was impressed with Barnes in 2d half. He definitely wanted the shot, and his teammates tried, often successfully, to get him the ball. His handle is still an issue, but at least it's a plus intermittently. And he does have a sweet jumper, with distance.


Kadji having trouble finishing over Henson...

Sure enough. IMO, the best way to attack Henson is... to attack Henson, by which I mean drive right into his chest and chin. Better odds of drawing a foul than avoiding a block. I realize this will draw some guffaws from those who are emphasizing the foul discrepancy this eve, but I'll stick with this view until persuaded it's ill-founded. Got to go hard up and into Henson's chest and chin. Hard.


Miami has made WAY too many unforced turnovers. I count at least three passes out of bounds, one back court, a couple of times stepping on the line, a ball off the foot, and so on and so forth...

Amen. UNC's defense was much better in 2d than in 1st half. but Canes played blockhead-ball, esp in 2d half.


Nice game by Barnes...a couple key threes by Bullock...Good offensive rebounding and defense by Carolina...

Yep. Really nice O-execution by UNC in 2d half. And O-rebounding. While many may have seen over-the-back fouls on UNC, I saw awful, i.e, non-existent, block-outs by Miami wings and guards. Ball-watching. Every play counts. K's "attention to detail." Ball-watching = lousy concentration. Every play counts. UNC played that way, mostly, in the 2d half. Miami - not even close.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

?... But I'll be darned if someone is going to tell me I'm just looking at that from a biased point of view. Yes, I am biased. But the over the backs are clear as day and only UNC consistently gets away with it.

Gary..about as biased as all the moving screens I see in every Duke game? No way! :)

[throatybeard]

That's what happens when a team dedicates play to feeding two athletically gifted, offensively minded, 7 footers in the post.
And there's also a factor of teams often playing from behind and fouling to extend the games.

It's really not that complicated and certainly no vast conspiracy.

I hate to stick up for Wheat, but people clinging to raw foul counts, while ignoring style of play in a given game, these folks are just whining. There's no conspiracy. We're making ourselves look foolish here.

[Duke79UNLV77]

That's what happens when a team dedicates play to feeding two athletically gifted, offensively minded, 7 footers in the post.
And there's also a factor of teams often playing from behind and fouling to extend the games.

It's really not that complicated and certainly no vast conspiracy.

2010 did not pass the straight-face test. Larry Drew, Ginyard, and the heavy-set smoker pressuring defenses for a 5-11 team, with Zeller and Davis still developing and often injured, and they still led the conference easily in foul differential? Duke has had a lot of guys who can penetrate and pressure defenses and the best cumulative record by far but hasn't led in foul differential this century. Find another 5-11 team with no creators that leads its conference in foul differential by a wide margin.

[JasonEvans]

I hate to stick up for Wheat, but people clinging to raw foul counts, while ignoring style of play in a given game, these folks are just whining. There's no conspiracy. We're making ourselves look foolish here.

Bingo. Carolina pushes the ball inside, a style of play that will likely result in more foul calls. Duke tends to sometimes bomb from the outside, a style of play that results in fewer fouls. Frankly, with Kendall penetrating and dishing to big men, it is no surprise that Carolina gets lots of foul calls.

-Jason "Wheat is a good guy... go easy ;) " Evans

[sporthenry]

I hate to stick up for Wheat, but people clinging to raw foul counts, while ignoring style of play in a given game, these folks are just whining. There's no conspiracy. We're making ourselves look foolish here.

So please explain how UNC's 2010 team led the conference in foul differential as Duke/UNLV pointed out? I'm not ignoring style of play at all but people also seem to put too much into style of play now a days. At some point, it is just basketball and like plays in the NFL there are just fouls on every team all the time such as rebounds or hand checks.

UNC has a 328 FT differential, Duke is at 179 and FSU at 33. UNC has a +7 foul differential, next highest is Maryland at +3.8. Duke is at 2.8 and FSU at -.1. So the whole argument about winning or being ahead shouldn't come into play that much. And on a national level, in the top 25, the next closest was Mizzou at 5.1 and UK as the only other one above a differential of 4 at 4.1. Mizzou doesn't pound it down low, certainly they create mismatches with having guards on bigs but even at that, 2 fouls a game is a fairly big gap. Difference between say Mason or Zeller fouling out perhaps? And yes, UNC does shoot the most 2's in the country but Syracuse is #5 in 2PM, employ a zone yet only enjoy a foul differential of 2 so I wouldn't necessarily say that solves the whole argument (I'm aware this is a simplification but I still think it gets my point across).

I just find it very weird that no other team has mimicked what UNC does since it works so well. They really must play some great defense and are just so much better than everyone else at drawing fouls.

[davekay1971]

It's the pastel blue. The eyes of the refs are naturally inclined to avoid seeing it. The color is simply so hideous, it creates a blind spot in the eyes of the refs. So, by instinct, they see a foul happening, but they have trouble seeing the UNC player involved in the foul. They only see the opposing team player and therefore, the player that their mind is willing to see is called for the foul. It's not the fault of the refs...their minds are simply doing what is necessary for self preservation by refusing to see that horrible, hideous shade of blue.

So Wheat is absolutely right that it's not a conspiracy.

It's survival.

[Wander]

As much as I think the refs caused a few UNC swings, Miami has made WAY too many unforced turnovers. I count at least three passes out of bounds, one back court, a couple of times stepping on the line, a ball off the foot, and so on and so forth...

This. Miami had at least three occasions where they fumbled an easy rebound out of bounds when there wasn't a Carolina player within 10 feet.

Also, how did this thread get this far without anyone mentioning that the Miami students chanted "Austin Rivers!" at Zeller when he shot free throws? Hilarious (and he went 0-2 on that trip).

[JNort]

This. Miami had at least three occasions where they fumbled an easy rebound out of bounds when there wasn't a Carolina player within 10 feet.

Also, how did this thread get this far without anyone mentioning that the Miami students chanted "Austin Rivers!" at Zeller when he shot free throws? Hilarious (and he went 0-2 on that trip).

It was mentioned already...

[Des Esseintes]

So please explain how UNC's 2010 team led the conference in foul differential as Duke/UNLV pointed out? I'm not ignoring style of play at all but people also seem to put too much into style of play now a days. At some point, it is just basketball and like plays in the NFL there are just fouls on every team all the time such as rebounds or hand checks.


Just because that team was bad didn't mean they played a different style than other Carolina teams. They did it poorly was all. The strength of that team was in Zeller, Davis, and Deon Thompson, and that remained true in spite of the rash of injuries. Any Williams team will work hard to feed its bigs. And an offense run through the big men will rack up fouls, even if the team consistently scores less points than the opposition. I'm with those who feel the conspiracy talk diminishes us. Isn't it Inside Carolina that has the delusions of referee bias?

[oldnavy]

Unc fans are the only fans I know that can lead the nation in foul differential and still whine about not getting enough calls. The whole 4 years that Hanstravel was at UNC the complaint was that he never got a call, yet he set records for the number of trips to the foul line. Point that out and the UNC faithfull will say, "yea but he should have gone more". Now, when Duke was (is) using a penetrating aggressive offensive style and going to the line more than opponents it was a conspiracy by the refs... When UNC does benefits from essentially the same thing it is because of style of play.

Honestly I don't really care that UNC gets more fouls called on their opponents and less on them than any team in the country. I just wish they would shut up about how unfair the refs are towards them. The refs gave Duke the game, not UNC's turnovers, missed fouls shots or inability to run clock... it was the refs!!

Oh, and try this on for logic... a UNC fan was asking me how they could not call Seth for a travel in the UNC game on his three pointer. I replied with a question of my own on how Hansbrough could take 3-6 steps almost every possession for four years and rarely ever get called for a travel. The answer was "oh, well that's in the paint, Curry was out in the open".... like refs can't see footwork in the paint....

You can't win an logical arguement when dealing with emotional fans.... just laugh and say we pay the refs better and your school shouldn't be so cheap!

[oldnavy]

Watching Reggie Johnson against UNC, I can't believe that is the same human being that went crazy against the Plumlees. He looks uncoordinated, has poor hands, has no elevation, and disappears on offense. He tries to dribble way too much in the paint. In one possession he got blocked twice, once by a guard. I know Henson and Zeller have some length, but how in the world did he drop 27 on us?!?

All of what you said, plus I think our interior play that game, especially the first half was incredibly weak... We allowed Johnson to get the ball too easily and did not put much pressure on his shots, and he got into a rythmn and went off...

[elvis14]

Unc fans are the only fans I know that can lead the nation in foul differential and still whine about not getting enough calls. The whole 4 years that Hanstravel was at UNC the complaint was that he never got a call, yet he set records for the number of trips to the foul line. Point that out and the UNC faithfull will say, "yea but he should have gone more". Now, when Duke was (is) using a penetrating aggressive offensive style and going to the line more than opponents it was a conspiracy by the refs... When UNC does benefits from essentially the same thing it is because of style of play.

Honestly I don't really care that UNC gets more fouls called on their opponents and less on them than any team in the country. I just wish they would shut up about how unfair the refs are towards them. The refs gave Duke the game, not UNC's turnovers, missed fouls shots or inability to run clock... it was the refs!!

Oh, and try this on for logic... a UNC fan was asking me how they could not call Seth for a travel in the UNC game on his three pointer. I replied with a question of my own on how Hansbrough could take 3-6 steps almost every possession for four years and rarely ever get called for a travel. The answer was "oh, well that's in the paint, Curry was out in the open".... like refs can't see footwork in the paint....

You can't win an logical arguement when dealing with emotional fans.... just laugh and say we pay the refs better and your school shouldn't be so cheap!

oldnavy's post points out the issue perfectly. It's hard not to look at the calls when every UNC fan I've seen all week has informed me that Duke won last week because of the refs. The issue isn't the refs, it's the UNC@CH fans and their illogical droning about the refs. And don't even get me started about HansCheater...

[ChillinDuke]

So please explain how UNC's 2010 team led the conference in foul differential as Duke/UNLV pointed out? I'm not ignoring style of play at all but people also seem to put too much into style of play now a days. At some point, it is just basketball and like plays in the NFL there are just fouls on every team all the time such as rebounds or hand checks.

UNC has a 328 FT differential, Duke is at 179 and FSU at 33. UNC has a +7 foul differential, next highest is Maryland at +3.8. Duke is at 2.8 and FSU at -.1. So the whole argument about winning or being ahead shouldn't come into play that much. And on a national level, in the top 25, the next closest was Mizzou at 5.1 and UK as the only other one above a differential of 4 at 4.1. Mizzou doesn't pound it down low, certainly they create mismatches with having guards on bigs but even at that, 2 fouls a game is a fairly big gap. Difference between say Mason or Zeller fouling out perhaps? And yes, UNC does shoot the most 2's in the country but Syracuse is #5 in 2PM, employ a zone yet only enjoy a foul differential of 2 so I wouldn't necessarily say that solves the whole argument (I'm aware this is a simplification but I still think it gets my point across).

I just find it very weird that no other team has mimicked what UNC does since it works so well. They really must play some great defense and are just so much better than everyone else at drawing fouls.

Nice post, SH.

While I think there is a ton of bias in this debate and won't directly opine on it, these statistics are pretty surprising. Would never have thought that the disparity is that large for UNC on a national level.

Really and truly, if that sentence read "Duke has a +7 foul differential...Mizzou at 5.1...UK at 4.1 and no one else over 4", I would be embarrassed. Maybe embarrassed isn't the right word, but I certainly would not be proud of that stat.

- Chillin

[dukeballboy88]

Most teams that are turbl as unc's 2010, dont lead in many things.

Handsburry broke the free throw attempts recrod midway through is jr year. Really?

UNC is the only team in the nation that feeds the post?

Miami has 2 legit bigs who touch the ball alot and went 6-8 from the line at home? 6-8 at home? Really?

[Duke79UNLV77]

As far as style of play, compare the number of times that Hansbrough and Shelden Williams, two physical inside players, had 4 or 5 fouls in a game in their careers. There is a huge disparity in Hansbrough's favor.

No one on 2010 UNC should have been particularly adept at drawing fouls. The perimeter was very poor at attacking. Davis and Zeller both missed a lot of games, and neither was developed offensively at that point. Also, people always point to bigs, but attacking perimeter players also tend to draw fouls. I think we would stack up very favorably to UNC in that category since 2000, not to mention Boozer, Shelden Williams, and some others inside, and yet we still have not led the conference in foul differential, while UNC almost always does.

Clearly, winning tends to correlate to foul differential, based on fouls at the end of the game and general superiority of talent. Al Featherston did an excellent multi-year statistical analysis looking at winning and foul differential several years ago. Guess which ACC team fared better than the numbers would have predicted?

[grit74]

Carolina has been committing over-the-back rebounding non-called fouls for decades.

Ask Al Wood's broken nose.

[Reilly]

Unc fans are the only fans I know that can lead the nation in foul differential and still whine about not getting enough calls. ... I just wish they would shut up ...

Well, they had an agent runner on their football staff, and appalling academic fraud, and still believe they are an example of how to do things the right way. "Delusion: The Carolina Way."

[aheel4ever]

I've been saying for quite some time that this message board is becoming more similar to Inside Carolina's every day. This thread is a perfect example.

[SupaDave]

I've been saying for quite some time that this message board is becoming more similar to Inside Carolina's every day. This thread is a perfect example.

That would require us to allow a whole bunch of "+1", blank responses, "lol's", the analysis of a 2nd grader, throwing the team under the bus, and personal attacks on people. Not gonna happen...

[UrinalCake]

That would require us to allow a whole bunch of "+1", blank responses, "lol's", the analysis of a 2nd grader, throwing the team under the bus, and personal attacks on people. Not gonna happen...

Don't forget the gleeful cheers of "in in one" from people quick enough to post on the first page of a new thread.

Also an interface that doesn't distinguish at all between old/quoted text and new content. Of course, in the case of IC they're pretty much the same thing.

[Jderf]

I've been saying for quite some time that this message board is becoming more similar to Inside Carolina's every day. This thread is a perfect example.


That would require us to allow a whole bunch of "+1", blank responses, "lol's", the analysis of a 2nd grader, throwing the team under the bus, and personal attacks on people. Not gonna happen...


Don't forget the gleeful cheers of "in in one" from people quick enough to post on the first page of a new thread.

Also an interface that doesn't distinguish at all between old/quoted text and new content. Of course, in the case of IC they're pretty much the same thing.

(1) SupaDave and UrinalCake's posts, (2) the fact that this thread has input from both sides of the argument, and (3) the fact that aheel4ever's post was not removed in the first place -- these are all clear reasons why the original point is simply way, way off the mark.

[aheel4ever]

(1) SupaDave and UrinalCake's posts, (2) the fact that this thread has input from both sides of the argument, and (3) the fact that aheel4ever's post was not removed in the first place -- these are all clear reasons why the original point is simply way, way off the mark.

Nah, it's not way off the mark. I didn't say you are there, but getting closer. There are several reasonable posts in this thread, but most are of IC caliber (or IC as you think of it).

By the way, most every thread I've read at IC on the game, including the ones that focused on some calls/non-calls in the final stretch, include posts from those that insist that blaming refs is a losers approach, or something along those lines. A lot of bad stuff, but some good stuff too (just like this thread).

Hey, congrats on your great victory last week. There was quite a lot to discuss of what happened in the last 2.5 minutes. Duke made the plays to win; UNC did not. Hope that turns around when they play again. FWIW, if we have to split, and I had my pick of which game UNC wins, I'd pick the one in Durham.

[UrinalCake]

The game in Cameron should be another epic battle. UNC will be fired up for sure, and Duke's intensity at home hasn't been very consistent for whatever reason. Hopefully for us we'll get a little more out of Miles and continue our hot shooting from outside.

Agree that we should all quit whining about the refs. We should get an NC State fan in here, would love to see his reaction to a thread where Duke and UNC fans argue over who gets more calls. I bet his head would explode 8-)

[ChicagoHeel]

Some things you see with regularity on ICC are (1) complaints about how Duke always gets the calls (2) mockery of inane posts on the TDD following a Duke loss (3) accusations that Coach K is a man of low character (4) bashing of the Duke fan base and (5) a burning hatred of Karl Hess and Len Elmore. In that regard, DBR and ICC are not as dissimilar as most here would like them to be.

That is not to say the two boards are the same. I received a number of extremely sympathetic private messages following my post in the wake of last week's debacle. It was really impressive and even- dare I say- touching. Who would have thought that DBR would be a source of comfort to a UNC fan following a loss to Duke? What universe have I entered? In any case, I don't think a Duke poster would have received the same treatment on ICC.

As for the foul discrepancy, as a UNC fan I do not believe we receive a disproportionate share of favorable calls. Yes, certain types of players benefit from the calls. For those who are claiming that UNC benefits from the refs, I'm curious as to your explanation. How exactly have we managed to convince an entire set of referees to favor us year in and year out? Why are we so much better at it than every other ACC team? It's a formidable accomplishment and I'm wondering how we've pulled it off.

A couple of years ago I posted my thoughts about fouls here on DBR. Just to (re)offer my two cents' worth...officiating is almost never a factor in deciding the outcome. If I had my way, discussion of the officiating would be non-existent, at least anything that takes the form of harping about bad or missed calls.

If you are a die-hard fan the officiating is always the same:

the calls that work in my team's favor are good calls (and thus easily forgotten);
the calls against my team are at best questionable and sometimes blatantly wrong (and thus easily remembered);
my team never gets enough good calls and gets shafted at least a couple times a game;
my team's rival routinely gets favorable treatment from the refs.

[PSurprise]

I agree that I don't think refs win or lose games. I also don't believe in any conspiracies with any teams. And of course, all good coaches "work" the refs for favorable treatment. That's probably in their job description. For me, in regards to the refs, the issue is consistency within a game. When a ref will call a charge on one end of the court, and the exact same scenario occurs on the other end and the whistle isn't blown, is when I have a problem with refereeing. And I'm sure the players and coaches do too.
If I see a bad call, I'll usually concede that, even if the call favors Duke-maybe a bad charge call that should have been a block or something.

For me, I'm fine with calls that go against Duke, as long as the calls also go against the opponent for the same foul. It seems though in the past, that reputations can precede the actual play, and that I think is unfair. Who remembers Zoubek as an underclassmen getting a huge amount of calls against him for plays that he either didn't foul on; or, non-calls that happened to him in similar situations on the other end. I think the same could be said for Miles earlier in his career. How much of reputation actually affects the refs, who knows? But there is some human element associated with it, I think.

Refereeing is never going to be perfect. And there will always be those nincompoops that blame the refs for every loss. That's just the way it is.

[Jderf]

Nah, it's not way off the mark. I didn't say you are there, but getting closer. There are several reasonable posts in this thread, but most are of IC caliber (or IC as you think of it).

Okay, okay. If that is your position, then I will cede you a small amount of rhetorical ground. DBR, like any public message board, is occasionally prone to displaying the uglier side of the interwebz. But though we may sometimes slide a tiny bit down the spectrum in IC's direction, our mods typically manage to keep things the way we like it.

And I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[sagegrouse]

A couple of years ago I posted my thoughts about fouls here on DBR. Just to (re)offer my two cents' worth...officiating is almost never a factor in deciding the outcome. If I had my way, discussion of the officiating would be non-existent, at least anything that takes the form of harping about bad or missed calls.

If you are a die-hard fan the officiating is always the same:

the calls that work in my team's favor are good calls (and thus easily forgotten);
the calls against my team are at best questionable and sometimes blatantly wrong (and thus easily remembered);
my team never gets enough good calls and gets shafted at least a couple times a game;
my team's rival routinely gets favorable treatment from the refs.


Thanks for your thoughtful post. I tend to agree with you that officiating judgment rarely affects the outcomes of games -- and then usually it comes down to a call or non-call on the last possession.

One game, much discussed here, where the officiating throughout the game did affect the outcome was the FF game between Duke and UConn in 2004. The officials called a very tight game -- they really ruined the whole thing -- so that Okafor sat much of the first half with two fouls and Duke's big men, Shelden and Shav, fouled out in the second on ticky-tack fouls. Then when UConn led by two at the end and JJ drove to the basket, he was knocked to the floor by Okafor and one other player, and the refs swallowed their whistles. I understand third-hand that the game was shortly afterwards used in NCAA training of refs as an example of "how not to referee."

sagegrouse

[MCFinARL]

Some things you see with regularity on ICC are (1) complaints about how Duke always gets the calls (2) mockery of inane posts on the TDD following a Duke loss (3) accusations that Coach K is a man of low character (4) bashing of the Duke fan base and (5) a burning hatred of Karl Hess and Len Elmore. In that regard, DBR and ICC are not as dissimilar as most here would like them to be.

Fair enough--although to be honest I have never seen anyone on DBR accuse Coach K of being a man of low character. ;) (yes, I know that is not what you meant, if the smiley doesn't make that clear....)



If you are a die-hard fan the officiating is always the same:

the calls that work in my team's favor are good calls (and thus easily forgotten);
the calls against my team are at best questionable and sometimes blatantly wrong (and thus easily remembered);
my team never gets enough good calls and gets shafted at least a couple times a game;
my team's rival routinely gets favorable treatment from the refs.



Yes--as I think I posted on another thread recently, they have actually done studies that demonstrate this "myside bias." They showed clips of disputed calls to people who were fans of each team and people who were not fans of either team. The majority of team fans thought calls in favor of their team were correct and calls against their team were wrong; people who were not fans of either team tended to split evenly on all the calls.


I agree that I don't think refs win or lose games. I also don't believe in any conspiracies with any teams. And of course, all good coaches "work" the refs for favorable treatment. That's probably in their job description. For me, in regards to the refs, the issue is consistency within a game. When a ref will call a charge on one end of the court, and the exact same scenario occurs on the other end and the whistle isn't blown, is when I have a problem with refereeing. And I'm sure the players and coaches do too.
If I see a bad call, I'll usually concede that, even if the call favors Duke-maybe a bad charge call that should have been a block or something.

For me, I'm fine with calls that go against Duke, as long as the calls also go against the opponent for the same foul. It seems though in the past, that reputations can precede the actual play, and that I think is unfair. Who remembers Zoubek as an underclassmen getting a huge amount of calls against him for plays that he either didn't foul on; or, non-calls that happened to him in similar situations on the other end. I think the same could be said for Miles earlier in his career. How much of reputation actually affects the refs, who knows? But there is some human element associated with it, I think.

Refereeing is never going to be perfect. And there will always be those nincompoops that blame the refs for every loss. That's just the way it is.

I agree with your post generally--refs are going to make mistakes, and it's likely that errors will even out, or come close, over the course of a game. Calls that happen at the end of a game may seem more important, but the situation at that time is a product of everything that went before in the game. It is frustrating, though, when calls don't seem to be consistent--although my guess is which team is hurt by that in a game can be pretty random.

But your point about reputation is interesting. Again, there is no inherent reason this problem should generally hurt one team more than another, but it obviously could hurt particular players (and if one of those players is on your team, it will hurt the team). I'm sure refs try to avoid pre-judging things, but games move fast, and if you expect to see a particular player pushing or going over the back, you may be more likely to see it. It's not that dissimilar from what sometimes happens in school classrooms, where students who have struggled academically or acted out in class in the past have trouble breaking out of that situation with teachers who expect them to perform in a certain way.

[ChicagoHeel]

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I tend to agree with you that officiating judgment rarely affects the outcomes of games -- and then usually it comes down to a call or non-call on the last possession.

One game, much discussed here, where the officiating throughout the game did affect the outcome was the FF game between Duke and UConn in 2004. The officials called a very tight game -- they really ruined the whole thing -- so that Okafor sat much of the first half with two fouls and Duke's big men, Shelden and Shav, fouled out in the second on ticky-tack fouls. Then when UConn led by two at the end and JJ drove to the basket, he was knocked to the floor by Okafor and one other player, and the refs swallowed their whistles. I understand third-hand that the game was shortly afterwards used in NCAA training of refs as an example of "how not to referee."

sagegrouse

I remember that game, although in my memory JJ committed an offensive foul and then flopped. Duke got away with one there. Ha, ha, just kidding.

Actually, I think UNC fans are tending to focus on the refs in last week's loss for somewhat similar reasons. In the second half the game seemed to be called pretty tightly- the refs were very quick to blow their whistles. I think an announcer suggested that it was likely a response to the chippiness displayed toward the end of the first half, which seems plausible. In any case, it didn't really advantage either side as both of us had people in foul trouble and were in the bonus relatively early. Actually, if I recall Duke was in the bonus really early. Nonetheless, when the refs, who seemingly had been blowing the whistle the whole second half, missed Curry's extra steps at such a critical juncture it just seemed like the universe was hating on us. But again, hit a foul shot, avoid a TO, or play a little tighter D on those late threes and Curry's walk doesn't matter.

[davekay1971]

Agree that we should all quit whining about the refs. We should get an NC State fan in here, would love to see his reaction to a thread where Duke and UNC fans argue over who gets more calls. I bet his head would explode 8-)

As an NC State friend of mine put it: when State plays at the Dean Dome, ALL of State's starters begin the game with 2 fouls. When State plays at Cameron, only MOST of State's starters begin the game with 2 fouls.

[davekay1971]

Actually, I think UNC fans are tending to focus on the refs in last week's loss for somewhat similar reasons. In the second half the game seemed to be called pretty tightly- the refs were very quick to blow their whistles. I think an announcer suggested that it was likely a response to the chippiness displayed toward the end of the first half, which seems plausible. In any case, it didn't really advantage either side as both of us had people in foul trouble and were in the bonus relatively early. Actually, if I recall Duke was in the bonus really early. Nonetheless, when the refs, who seemingly had been blowing the whistle the whole second half, missed Curry's extra steps at such a critical juncture it just seemed like the universe was hating on us. But again, hit a foul shot, avoid a TO, or play a little tighter D on those late threes and Curry's walk doesn't matter.

Not to mention the offensive foul that Barnes committed shortly before Curry's stutter-step-stop, which was pretty obvious but missed. Bottom line, when Duke and UNC get together, there's usually not much obvious or blatant bias, certainly not enough to alter the results of the game. Missed calls happen both ways. I honestly think the refs missed the travel on Curry, but they also missed the one on Barnes, and so on back through the game. Still, emotions run deep in that game, it was a stunning comeback, and if it had been Duke blowing a 10 point lead at home against Carolina, I'd probably be irritated at everything that I thought contributed to the loss.

[-jk]

I think the foul disparity is simple to explain - Roy doesn't ask them to play defense. If you don't defend aggressively you won't foul as much.

Ok, I know it's a reach. Sorta.

-jk

[sporthenry]

I really don't see how any of this borders on anything IC related. This is a fairly well-reasoned conversation with actual facts and figures to prove a point that Duke doesn't get nearly the amount of calls UNC does. Again, I have a hard time just saying its UNC's style of play and thats all b/c this isn't just about comparing UNC to the ACC but to anyone else in the NCAA. So they are the only one who plays that style. I'm sure I'll get some rebuke that nobody plays it as good as UNC but I can't find numbers past this year to see if this is the case for most years.

That said, here are some more numbers for ACC conference play. Duke only holds a free throw differential of 5 over its opponents and is actually called for .2 more fouls than its opponents. UNC has a FT differential of 77 and foul disparity of 4.2 per game (double of next closest MD). I won't say anything b/c apparently that is only allowed by IC but I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Now I am of the firm belief that a team should overcome bad calls if they are supposedly that good so I'm at that point where I think Duke should be able to overcome any bad calls that may come its way. But when a team like Va. Tech or NC State is playing a Duke or UNC, they have a much harder time trying to overcome these bad calls b/c the talent disparity is already big enough. It is just one variable and as Miami showed, you can shoot yourself in the foot a whole lot worse, but those numbers should be a bit eye-popping to say the least.

[ForkFondler]

But again, hit a foul shot, avoid a TO, or play a little tighter D on those late threes and Curry's walk doesn't matter.

Also, avoid divine intervention - which is the only possible explanation for the own goal. Had you noticed that the sky seems a bit darker lately?

[UrinalCake]

Also, avoid divine intervention - which is the only possible explanation for the own goal. Had you noticed that the sky seems a bit darker lately?

I thought Kelly was fouled on the attempt that led to that play. Let's just say he would have made two out of three and call it even 8-)