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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 73, Maryland 55 Post-Game Thread



rthomas
02-11-2012, 05:17 PM
That's all I got to say. 22 rebounds.

ArkieDukie
02-11-2012, 05:18 PM
That's all I got to say. 22 rebounds.

QFE. I'd also like to add that I'd love for this to be a Zoubekian coming out party for MP1. Stellar game for the senior co-captain.

mgtr
02-11-2012, 05:19 PM
Well, now, I already know who my MOTM is.

JBDuke
02-11-2012, 05:24 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

PumpkinFunk
02-11-2012, 05:27 PM
QFE. I'd also like to add that I'd love for this to be a Zoubekian coming out party for MP1. Stellar game for the senior co-captain.

We can talk about this as a coming out party, but MP1 has been having a stellar season. If you look on KenPom, he's 99th in the country in Offensive Efficiency (of all players), 8th in Offensive Rebounding Rate, and 166th in Defensive Rebounding Rate. Much like 2010 Zoubek, he's been playing well all season, but nobody has been noticing quite as much as he's deserved in large part due to foul trouble and tendency to focus on the mistakes he has made. That being said, this game was spectacular, and it's good to see him get the recognition he deserves.

SupaDave
02-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Way to wake up in the second half. Our bigs dominated.

roywhite
02-11-2012, 05:29 PM
Way to go, Miles!

And good games also from Mason and Seth Curry.

Thought our defense was strong throughout; offense, not sharp at times, but eventually got the job done.
On to the next one.

arnie
02-11-2012, 05:30 PM
Way to wake up in the second half. Our bigs dominated.

Picked the right game to miss alot of close in shots and free throws. Can Miles keep it up - if so I see him with more minutes than Kelly most of rest of season.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-11-2012, 05:31 PM
Ummm, did Miles out rebound Maryland by himself??? 22 rebounds, that is sick.

Please keep it up Miles!! No more Houdini(sp) acts. Definitely the MOTM.

Another rough one from the charity stripe, but luckily we didn't really need them. Good defense from the boys and another nice game from Seth too. I really really enjoy when Seth is playing well because then ESPN will show his mom more. I know i know, maybe a little inappropriate, but i can't help it.

Well done boys!!!

jv001
02-11-2012, 05:32 PM
After a sluggish start, the guys stepped it up. Especially Miles and Mason. Good game for Seth as well. Good shooting and some good passes. Austin played consistently through out. I agree with roywhite, the defense was pretty good in this game. GoDuke!

ArkieDukie
02-11-2012, 05:33 PM
We can talk about this as a coming out party, but MP1 has been having a stellar season. If you look on KenPom, he's 99th in the country in Offensive Efficiency (of all players), 8th in Offensive Rebounding Rate, and 166th in Defensive Rebounding Rate. Much like 2010 Zoubek, he's been playing well all season, but nobody has been noticing quite as much as he's deserved in large part due to foul trouble and tendency to focus on the mistakes he has made. That being said, this game was spectacular, and it's good to see him get the recognition he deserves.

That is a fair point, o fellow chemistry alumnus. Miles has had several solid games, and his contributions are not always reflected by his stat line. I guess I meant that I'd like to see him put up the big numbers from here on out.

ArkieDukie
02-11-2012, 05:36 PM
Picked the right game to miss alot of close in shots and free throws. Can Miles keep it up - if so I see him with more minutes than Kelly most of rest of season.

I disagree with the notion of Miles' minutes coming at RK's expense. AR's big shot at the end of the UNC game overshadowed the fact that Kelly played a huge role in our comeback. Maybe a better answer would be that minutes between our very 3 talented bigs could be more evenly distributed.

DukieInBrasil
02-11-2012, 05:46 PM
I disagree with the notion of Miles' minutes coming at RK's expense. AR's big shot at the end of the UNC game overshadowed the fact that Kelly played a huge role in our comeback. Maybe a better answer would be that minutes between our very 3 talented bigs could be more evenly distributed.

Well, how can those 3 players rotate between 2 positions if one of them doesn't consume another's minutes? Now, maybe Miles takes some of Mason's minutes, but i have to imagine that some are gonna come from Ryan as well. That is if MP I plays to the level of getting more.

hq2
02-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Well, it was Maryland where Zoubs had his senior coming out party a couple of years ago. Nice to see
Miles have a big game too. However, I'd have to say his performance against Zeller and Henson on Wednesday
was a little more revealing. We'll see how he looks in the last few games. Still, nice to see him step it up, at least
in this one.

1999ballboy
02-11-2012, 05:48 PM
So how long has it been since a Duke player had 22 rebounds? When Miles hit 20, ESPN showed that it was the most since Elton Brand got 21 in 1998. But Miles had 2 more boards after that. Who was the last to get 22? Cherokee Parks? G-Man? Someone way back before that?

ArkieDukie
02-11-2012, 05:53 PM
Well, how can those 3 players rotate between 2 positions if one of them doesn't consume another's minutes? Now, maybe Miles takes some of Mason's minutes, but i have to imagine that some are gonna come from Ryan as well. That is if MP I plays to the level of getting more.

That's what I meant, but I didn't state it very clearly. I was objecting to Miles getting more minutes solely at Ryan Kelly's expense. What I was trying to say, obviously quite poorly, was that stronger play from Miles gives Coach K the luxury of spreading the minutes a bit more evenly between the bigs.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Who guarded Stoglin most? I thought we did a really great job sticking with him and making him take tough shots. Loved the tenacity of our players stay in front of him so well. And it looks to me like the bigs are becoming quite effective on their hedges. You can see them playing the right angle without fouling and then hustling to recover their position. And I've noticed the other big man down low generally doing a great job rotating over and helping. Loving it!

Chris Randolph
02-11-2012, 06:05 PM
Nice win after an emotionally draining game a few days ago. Plumlees and Curry were great. If Miles can be effective against all levels of opponents then that could be huge for this team. I wouldn't compare it to 2010 because Zoubek had 3 all americans surrounding him and just a better team. As stated already Miles seems to vanish or shrink against better interior teams but Zoubs used to do the same thing before he gained the confidence. Here is to hoping Miles does as well and that his teammates can elevate themselves as well. Glad to see that Curry is building game after game like we all thought he would. Ryan is inconsistent, really has been up and down since being named Maui MVP. It drives me crazy but hopefully he can find a consistent groove going into the homestretch.

Verga3
02-11-2012, 06:06 PM
So how long has it been since a Duke player had 22 rebounds? When Miles hit 20, ESPN showed that it was the most since Elton Brand got 21 in 1998. But Miles had 2 more boards after that. Who was the last to get 22? Cherokee Parks? G-Man? Someone way back before that?

Last player to top Miles was Randy Denton v. Davidson in 1969. Last with 22 was Mike Lewis v. Temple in 1968.

Congrats Miles!! One for the ages!!

cspan37421
02-11-2012, 06:07 PM
Another rough one from the charity stripe,

Give credit to the MD FT defense. Uh, wait a sec ....

cspan37421
02-11-2012, 06:09 PM
I disagree with the notion of Miles' minutes coming at RK's expense. AR's big shot at the end of the UNC game overshadowed the fact that Kelly played a huge role in our comeback. Maybe a better answer would be that minutes between our very 3 talented bigs could be more evenly distributed.

Me too, they may both be tall, but that's about where the comparison ends. Otherwise very different roles.

Saratoga2
02-11-2012, 06:16 PM
We were totally dominated inside by UNC and we returned the favor to a much weaker Maryland team. Maryland came out and focused on stopping our outside shots and that opened it up for the Plumlees and Kelly. We dominated inside and that was the difference in the game.

Why the heck do we come out so slowly? That was the primary issue to deal with, otherwise it was a good defensive game and several players looked more mature out there.

Miles of course gets a lot of credit for turning it on and getting to ball after ball. Mason and Kelly all played with some fire after a slow start.

I thought Austin had another very good game. Opponents will focus on stopping him. He will have to get what becomes available without getting frustrated. The good news is that Curry had an excellent overall game. We need him to continue to play well for us to win the big games.

Now a lot from out point or from Dawkins. Until Andre has the confidence to put the ball on the floor, he will be limited against teams that guard the perimeter.

devildeac
02-11-2012, 06:32 PM
The Plumlee Plumlee double double double double. Would that make it a Plumlee quadruple:rolleyes:?

Plumtastic?

Zoubekian?

Zincredible?

Plumnomenal?

OK, I'll quit there:o.

roywhite
02-11-2012, 06:44 PM
Official Boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205378418)

21 offensive rebounds (7 by Mason and 9 by Miles) vs 7 total offensive rebounds for the Terps

40 minutes played for Austin

Verga3
02-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Official Boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205378418)

21 offensive rebounds (7 by Mason and 9 by Miles) vs 7 total offensive rebounds for the Terps

40 minutes played for Austin

32 total Plumlee rebounds. All-time NCAA record?

RockyMtDevil
02-11-2012, 06:51 PM
Very solid and mature game today coming off the incredible comeback against UNC. Obviously Miles and Mason were wonderful, but kudos to Seth, Austin and Thornton for just playing strong, both offensively and defensively. Andre continues to be a mystery. Seriously, has he hit a two point jumper all season? I really do not believe he has. I know he's hit layups, but can anyone ever remember him taking two dribbles and sinking a 15 footer?

Very good, yeoman effort tonight. We seem older, and that's a good thing...

-bdbd
02-11-2012, 06:52 PM
A very solid game all around.....after a sluggish start. That was such an incredible comeback win Wed. night that I was sincerely worried about a hangover today. With P. Howard out now for the year, I didn't think MD would have the talent or depth to hang aoround all game, but they played us very well. Especially solid efforts from Curry, Miles and Mason. I agree that our frontline really needed to assert itself, after getting a bit outworked on Wed., certainly against an opponent without much frontcourt size or experience/depth. But what I really liked most was Miles' scrappiness -- quite a lot of those Rebounds came through second effort and sheer determination. I hope that extra effort, which is very senior-like to see from MP1, becomes contagious. Because we haven't consistently shown it this year.

Good, workmanlike result today guys! Now, no letdowns as we play a couple very winable games coming up. The sked, as they pointed out on TV today, doesn't look all that unfavorable for us the rest of the way...

Focus. Focus. Focus.


Go Duke!

WakeDevil
02-11-2012, 07:19 PM
It appears that Stoglin has vented his frustration on Twitter. It's been removed but the MD 24/7 board has a screenshot. There will be a prayer meeting between the coach and him.

COYS
02-11-2012, 07:22 PM
With some more made freethrows, this game would've been a laugher. It was our best defensive game since . . . well, the last time we played Maryland. Always good to see us able to dominate another team even when we're not shooting well from anywhere. And, of course, MAJOR props to Miles for an incredible game. We can only hope we'll be able to draw parallels to Miles vs. Maryland this year and Zoubs vs. Maryland two years ago.

Pantone #287
02-11-2012, 07:27 PM
Seriously, has he hit a two point jumper all season? I really do not believe he has. I know he's hit layups, but can anyone ever remember him taking two dribbles and sinking a 15 footer?

I believe Andre has done this a few times throughout the season - I seem to remember a shot of precisely this description from the right wing/baseline area in the last Maryland game - but your point is well-taken: an effective mid-range game would be a huge addition to his overall contribution to the offense. Andre's playing time and effectiveness seem to be limited at present by a few factors:

(1) Foul trouble - Some of this he can avoid, some of it he may not be able to. The 4th foul called on him today was, to me, particularly egregious, as he and the Maryland player should have had equal right to elevate and contend for the ball in that situation. A good no-call if I ever saw one.
(2) Ineffective ball handling - I believe this has been thoroughly discussed previously.
(3) Occasional mental lapses on defense - This has, in reality, been an issue for nearly every player this year, but in combination with the aforementioned factors, Andre's contributions haven't counterbalanced this enough for the coaching staff to overlook it, IMO. I thought his defense was quite effective today, and, in general, he has recently been doing a better job of not getting caught flat-footed on D (an area that is still a struggle for both Seth and Tyler in on-ball defense - they both have a tendency to get rocked back on their heels, which is how so many drivers get past them). He had some fouls called on perhaps overly aggressive defensive plays today, but I'll take those over flat-footed blow-by and reach plays any day.

On another topic, what was Mike Patrick talking about today in saying that Mason's free throws are better off without any rotation on them? That is one of the more ignorant comments I've heard in awhile, and that's saying something. Flies right in the face of the laws of physics governing shooting accuracy. Geez...

roywhite
02-11-2012, 07:33 PM
It appears that Stoglin has vented his frustration on Twitter. It's been removed but the MD 24/7 board has a screenshot. There will be a prayer meeting between the coach and him.

30 minutes 4-16 from the field; 0-6 from 3-pt

Uhhh, Terrell, two words for you:
Scoreboard
Scorebook :)

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-11-2012, 07:43 PM
On another topic, what was Mike Patrick talking about today in saying that Mason's free throws are better off without any rotation on them? That is one of the more ignorant comments I've heard in awhile, and that's saying something. Flies right in the face of the laws of physics governing shooting accuracy. Geez...

Patrick is so hammered, I don't know how he can tell what is and what is not spinning.;)

BTW, I really enjoyed Patrick and Elmore arguing about Faust's driving/3 pt ability. Patrick was a bottle and a half deep and didn't have a care in the world, but you could tell Elmore was irritated with Patrick and the Terps. Delicious listening.

1 24 90
02-11-2012, 07:44 PM
32 total Plumlee rebounds. All-time NCAA record?

Withey & Robinson from Kansas combined for 34 rebounds today.

dukelifer
02-11-2012, 07:49 PM
32 total Plumlee rebounds. All-time NCAA record?

I wonder for two brothers in the same game- but probably not.

anon
02-11-2012, 07:50 PM
I wonder for two brothers in the same game- but probably not.

The question was whether any other team has had more Plumlee rebounds. I believe not. :)

mapei
02-11-2012, 07:57 PM
So what did Stoglin's tweet say, exactly?

anon
02-11-2012, 08:03 PM
So what did Stoglin's tweet say, exactly?

“Loved sittin that bench today. [Smh] wow,” Stoglin wrote in a tweet deleted within an hour. ("[Smh]" was changed from "Smfh", for "shaking my f*cking head".)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/11/maryland-duke-terrell-stoglin-plumlee-turgeon-howa/

Neals384
02-11-2012, 08:05 PM
I disagree with the notion of Miles' minutes coming at RK's expense. AR's big shot at the end of the UNC game overshadowed the fact that Kelly played a huge role in our comeback. Maybe a better answer would be that minutes between our very 3 talented bigs could be more evenly distributed.

Well I think at this point Miles may take minutes from Josh, who is averaging 6 minutes in conference play. Miles is averaging 19.7 minutes in conference and if he can go 24 minutes or so without getting in foul trouble, i could see shortening the bench.

OldSchool
02-11-2012, 08:11 PM
What Stoglin tweeted: “Loved sittin that bench today. Smh wow”

What Stoglin SHOULD have tweeted: "Props to Thornton, Cook and Curry for shutting me down today"

SilkyJ
02-11-2012, 08:14 PM
We can talk about this as a coming out party, but MP1 has been having a stellar season. If you look on KenPom, he's 99th in the country in Offensive Efficiency (of all players), 8th in Offensive Rebounding Rate, and 166th in Defensive Rebounding Rate. Much like 2010 Zoubek, he's been playing well all season, but nobody has been noticing quite as much as he's deserved in large part due to foul trouble and tendency to focus on the mistakes he has made. That being said, this game was spectacular, and it's good to see him get the recognition he deserves.

"MP1 is having a stellar season." Stellar? Really? That's a little strong.

The offensive redounding rate is nice, but how does being "99th" in something, "166th" in something, and averaging 6 and 6 equate to a "stellar season"?? Miles has shown a couple flashes, but struggled against big centers and the eye test says that he has largely underachieved this season. He's the most athletic player on the team according to many, the only senior, and yet has played <10mins twice in the last 4 games. That tells you how much K trusts him.

Today could be a big, big step for him, but to date I've been underwhelmed. That said, I would have said the same about Zoubek this time in 2010. Here's to hoping a similar transformation is taking place.


That's what I meant, but I didn't state it very clearly. I was objecting to Miles getting more minutes solely at Ryan Kelly's expense. What I was trying to say, obviously quite poorly, was that stronger play from Miles gives Coach K the luxury of spreading the minutes a bit more evenly between the bigs.

Well I don't think Miles' minutes are going to come at the expense of Mason's. Mason is clearly our best post player and our 2nd best player overall behind Austin. Both Ryan and Miles will play significant minutes, but K will have to decide based on matchups and momentum who plays in certain situations.

Greg_Newton
02-11-2012, 08:20 PM
I'll echo all of the positive/encouraged sentiments already voiced, but one thing continues to really irritate me. Why does 6'11 Ryan Kelly's version of weak-side defense consist putting his hands below his waist, sliding over under a driving player, and flopping? It drives me CRAZY - not only does it result in many more blocking fouls and and-ones than charges, but it's just a terrible mentality for a 6'11 guy with decent timing to have. Just get in position, PUT YOUR HANDS UP, play tall, jump for the block if you happen to have the angle, and you'll affect the shot and protect the rim. Simple as that. Why have the coaches not corrected this?

(Rant over...)

roywhite
02-11-2012, 08:35 PM
I'll echo all of the positive/encouraged sentiments already voiced, but one thing continues to really irritate me. Why does 6'11 Ryan Kelly's version of weak-side defense consist putting his hands below his waist, sliding over under a driving player, and flopping? It drives me CRAZY - not only does it result in many more blocking fouls and and-ones than charges, but it's just a terrible mentality for a 6'11 guy with decent timing to have. Just get in position, PUT YOUR HANDS UP, play tall, jump for the block if you happen to have the angle, and you'll affect the shot and protect the rim. Simple as that. Why have the coaches not corrected this?

(Rant over...)

I hear you, though I wonder if that's the type of defense the staff wants Ryan to play?
The Plumlees to contest shots and go for blocks, and Ryan look to draw charges?
As great a defender as Shane Batttier was, it seemed he went for the charge a lot as opposed to straight-up defense, at least early in his Duke days.

OldSchool
02-11-2012, 08:46 PM
Miles has shown a couple flashes, but struggled against big centers and the eye test says that he has largely underachieved this season. He's the most athletic player on the team according to many, the only senior, and yet has played <10mins twice in the last 4 games. That tells you how much K trusts him.


Miles suffers the most from the fact that our guards are not great passers. Ryan can score with his 3-pt shooting and Mason can back his man down and shoot a hook shot, but Miles is under-utilized offensively because he needs someone to get the ball to him when he is open. If there was someone with (I hate to name a tarheel) Kendall Marshall's vision and timing, Miles would be collecting a lot more buckets. Conversely, if UNC did not have Marshall their bigs would have significantly lower scoring averages.

I will give props on two passes today. At the beginning of the second half, Thornton delivers a great long bounce pass to Mason who is under the basket and dunks it. This was a design play that they ran with perfect timing, but still it was a good pass.

The best pass of the day was at the 6:38 mark in the 2d half. Curry and Mason run the pick and roll, and when Mason's man hedges, Curry delivers a perfect pass over the top to Mason who flushes it. With Mason's athleticism that type of play is available at numerous times in a game to any of our guards who are able to deliver that pass. Curry made that pass over Len, the 7-footer. Miles is also capable of completing that play if our guards can get the ball to him.

Also, Austin had a couple of good lobs to one of our bigs when he drove the lane today, showing improving court vision.

-jk
02-11-2012, 09:07 PM
Who guarded Stoglin most? I thought we did a really great job sticking with him and making him take tough shots. Loved the tenacity of our players stay in front of him so well. And it looks to me like the bigs are becoming quite effective on their hedges. You can see them playing the right angle without fouling and then hustling to recover their position. And I've noticed the other big man down low generally doing a great job rotating over and helping. Loving it!

We had various guards on him, but more importantly, we consistently steered him into a trap. Every time he drove, he found himself running into a big. Great team defense! Completely got into his head.

-jk

Greg_Newton
02-11-2012, 09:07 PM
I hear you, though I wonder if that's the type of defense the staff wants Ryan to play?
The Plumlees to contest shots and go for blocks, and Ryan look to draw charges?
As great a defender as Shane Batttier was, it seemed he went for the charge a lot as opposed to straight-up defense, at least early in his Duke days.

Seems like it must be, which perplexes me. Watching his 6'11 frame crumple as a 6'2 guard soars over him for a layup is just pathetic... I mean, he's even a good shot blocker!

Another "area of improvement" I see is hitting the screener off of pick and rolls; I can't count how many times Miles was wide open for the lob today. Curry in particular does not seem to be looking for this at all, but it's there quite often.

Newton_14
02-11-2012, 09:27 PM
Awesome performance by Miles. Thought it was cool that rebound number 20 came via the putback dunk which rocked the house. As expected, there was a bit of a hangover from the emotional win over UNC at the start. The good thing is the hangover was limited to the offensive end. Despite struggling to score for the first 10 minutes, the guys did not let it impact their defense. I was worried they were going to dig themselves another large hole to dig out of, but fortunately they buckled down on defense and kept the score close until the offense kicked in gear. Thought Mason had a really strong game on both ends as well. Was active all day.

Seth had another strong game, as did Austin, even though he did not shoot it great. Still hit some timely 3's, played good defense, and distributed the ball well. I thought the foul trouble limited both Ryan and Andre. The team did a really good job containing Stoglin too.

To me it is a big deal (especially given the Psyche of this team) to play a strong game and get the win coming off the UNC game. Losing today would have been a dagger and would have wiped out most of the good from the UNC win. It wasn't easy, but to put the terps away down the stretch and win by 18 was big. Now they get a few days to rest and re-energize themselves before taking on the Wolfpack. Winning the regular season is still very much attainable, but requires focus and hard work.

Glad to see Gbinije get in there today even though it was just a minute or so. Capel said the Gbinije has been putting in a lot of extra work and focusing on getting better. Maybe he can provide a boost in spot minutes down the stretch. If he can contribute some here and there on defense it could give the guys one more piece to help improve the team defense. Pulling hard for that kid. Capel did note that Mike's attitude has been great as well.

On another note, we had 4 mouthy Terp fans behind us today, one of which yelled "You Suck" at Austin on a free throw attempt in the first half. My blood pressure hit the roof and if looks could kill all 4 would be dead! After every fan in the immediate area glared at him, that phrase was not used again. Once the score got out of hand, they slumped in their seats and were about as loud as the UNC fans Wed night when the clock struck 00.00.

Kedsy
02-11-2012, 09:27 PM
Until Andre has the confidence to put the ball on the floor, he will be limited against teams that guard the perimeter.

I don't agree that his ability to put it on the floor is what causes his low scoring games. I think it's completely about how hard he tries to get open when he doesn't have the ball. If he's standing on the perimeter and he's open and he gets the ball, a good defender can get to him in time to cause him to think about the shot and/or not take it. Because the guy knows where he is, even if he appears open. If he's cutting on the perimeter, using screens, and weaving through bodies, if he gets the ball once he gets open nobody can get to him in time to stop the shot.

Against Clemson and Wake (and Michigan State), Andre worked and cut like crazy to hunt his shot. The past several games (including today's game) he seems to more often move to an open spot and stand there. Put another way, when he's moving well without the ball, he won't need to put the ball on the floor.


Seriously, has he hit a two point jumper all season? I really do not believe he has. I know he's hit layups, but can anyone ever remember him taking two dribbles and sinking a 15 footer?

Yes. Several times.


I'll echo all of the positive/encouraged sentiments already voiced, but one thing continues to really irritate me. Why does 6'11 Ryan Kelly's version of weak-side defense consist putting his hands below his waist, sliding over under a driving player, and flopping? It drives me CRAZY - not only does it result in many more blocking fouls and and-ones than charges, but it's just a terrible mentality for a 6'11 guy with decent timing to have. Just get in position, PUT YOUR HANDS UP, play tall, jump for the block if you happen to have the angle, and you'll affect the shot and protect the rim. Simple as that. Why have the coaches not corrected this?

Well, Ryan did have 3 blocks today in only 17 minutes. So he doesn't go for the charge every time. Plus, I thought he was planted and stationary every time he tried it today. The one time I recall a defensive foul was called (when K put his hands on his head), the foul was on someone else (I believe Andre), and presumably came before the offensive player plowed into a perfectly set Ryan. So I don't have a problem with it.

Olympic Fan
02-11-2012, 09:31 PM
The fact is that we match up very well with Maryland. Their so-called bigs can't handle either Plumlee and Stoglin is a small guard that our small defenders can handle.

He's had two mediocre games against Duke. The guy is leading the ACC in scoring ... he's had three games under 20 points in the ACC this season and two of them are against Duke.

In five career games against Duke, Stoglin has not hit a 3-pointer against Duke. Wow, I just checked his numbers. In five career games, he's:

2011 in Durham -- 1-10 0-6 3 pts.
2011 in College Park -- 1-4 0-0 2 pts.
2011 in Greensboro (ACC Tourney opener) -- 2-10 0-1 6 pts.
2012 in College Park 7-14 0-4 16 points
2012 in Durham 4-16 0-6 13 points

Five games 15-54 (25.9 percent) 0-17 3 pts 40 points 8.0

No wonder he's venting his frustration on twitter

killerleft
02-11-2012, 09:34 PM
The Plumlee Plumlee double double double double. Would that make it a Plumlee quadruple:rolleyes:?

Plumtastic?

Zoubekian?

Zincredible?

Plumnomenal?

OK, I'll quit there:o.

Colonel Plum in the Lane with the Vise Grips!:p

UrinalCake
02-11-2012, 09:44 PM
Why does 6'11 Ryan Kelly's version of weak-side defense consist putting his hands below his waist, sliding over under a driving player, and flopping? It drives me CRAZY - not only does it result in many more blocking fouls and and-ones than charges, but it's just a terrible mentality for a 6'11 guy with decent timing to have.

plus it eliminates any chance at a rebound, and takes him completely out of the remainder of the play as he lays on the ground. Basically if he doesn't get the charge call then it's going to be a bucket for the other team. He seems to be doing this a lot more recently; earlier in the season he played better straight up D and did it pretty well.

duke09hms
02-11-2012, 09:47 PM
Tyler with 4 fouls in 21 minutes, the kid has got to learn not to foul. He's averaging 1 foul every 7 minutes this season . . . that almost counteracts any benefit his supposed stellar defense is supposed to bring us.

UMD's 7-foot freshman Alex Len looks like he is going to be a big pain for us these next few years. At least we'll definitely have Marshall to faceoff with him.

Verga3
02-11-2012, 10:19 PM
I wonder for two brothers in the same game- but probably not.

We will claim the Plumlee's 32 rebounds is the NCAA single-game record for two (or more) brothers until someone shoots it down.

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-11-2012, 10:34 PM
We will claim the Plumlee's 32 rebounds is the NCAA single-game record for two (or more) brothers until someone shoots it down.

For comparison's sake, the Wear brothers combined for 8 rebounds in a 10 point home loss to Cal.

Greg_Newton
02-11-2012, 11:47 PM
We will claim the Plumlee's 32 rebounds is the NCAA single-game record for two (or more) brothers until someone shoots it down.

I'm pretty sure the Griffin brothers never had that many. They combined for a measly 30 against Texas Tech on 2/14/09 (mostly thanks to Blake's 23), but never did better than that!

snowdenscold
02-11-2012, 11:50 PM
So I have it on good authority that the Duke / Maryland rivalry is still alive and kicking, and hasn't dropped a beat since the early 2000's. And anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant freshman. Oh wait, that authority is Len Elmore, so scratch that.

Seriously though, is ESPN making him say stuff like that all game just to hype things up, or does he believe it? From this fan's perspective, the "rivalry" had cooled by the mid 2000's, Greivis antics notwithstanding (that was more of an individual player thing than a team rivalry). We had beaten them 10 of the past 11 going into this game... shouldn't that indicate something?

The faux hype was embarrassing.

PumpkinFunk
02-12-2012, 06:15 AM
"MP1 is having a stellar season." Stellar? Really? That's a little strong.

The offensive redounding rate is nice, but how does being "99th" in something, "166th" in something, and averaging 6 and 6 equate to a "stellar season"?? Miles has shown a couple flashes, but struggled against big centers and the eye test says that he has largely underachieved this season. He's the most athletic player on the team according to many, the only senior, and yet has played <10mins twice in the last 4 games. That tells you how much K trusts him.

Today could be a big, big step for him, but to date I've been underwhelmed. That said, I would have said the same about Zoubek this time in 2010. Here's to hoping a similar transformation is taking place.

I wouldn't say it's strong. In several ACC games, Miles has gotten into foul trouble. Much like Zoubek, he hasn't been passing the eye test because he can be sloppy. But like Zoubek, the numbers don't lie. 99th and 166th are out of every single player on every D1 team (all 300-some of them). And the numbers are close in there. I'm sure those numbers will have gone up on KenPom after this game, when he really was outstanding. Miles hasn't struggled against big centers as much as you think. If you watch the tape, he's played good defense all season, albeit not flashy defense. Sure, on offense, he's had issues, but he barely gets touches on that end. The turning point against Ohio State was when Miles went out (he played good D on Sullinger). The issue most of the season has been foul trouble and the fact that people haven't recognized his good plays even though he doesn't pass the eye test. Is he as good at rebounding as Zoubs was? No, absolutely not. But he's much better on offense, more athletic, better at shooting jumpers, etc. Miles hasn't put it all together for the season like he did this game, and that's why people haven't noticed. Mostly because of early foul trouble.

Matches
02-12-2012, 07:39 AM
Players' roles seem to be rounding into shape.

It looks like we have a pretty solid 7.5/ 8 man rotation (depending on Cook's minutes). Rivers has emerged as the leader and go-to guy. Both the front court and back court rotations are pretty well-defined. We look a little better defensively than before - still not great but trending in the right direction. We're potent offensively.

Still lots of room for improvement, but one can't help but be encouraged by the last week. Next step will be a tough and rested Wolfpack team - big game in the ACC standings.

RockyMtDevil
02-12-2012, 08:15 AM
One thing that continues to baffle is our inability to close out the first half and K's insistence on going 2 for 1 and it has NEVER worked!! Please stop doing this. For 30 years we've ended halfs well and began the secon half strong but for some strange reason, we just can't finish a half this year. I hate the 2 for 1, it doesn't work, especially with a young team. We launch a three with 38 seconds left expecting to get the ball back and we never hit, allowing the opposing team to take the full 35 seconds and bury a jumper.

jimsumner
02-12-2012, 08:48 AM
One thing that continues to baffle is our inability to close out the first half and K's insistence on going 2 for 1 and it has NEVER worked!! Please stop doing this. For 30 years we've ended halfs well and began the secon half strong but for some strange reason, we just can't finish a half this year. I hate the 2 for 1, it doesn't work, especially with a young team. We launch a three with 38 seconds left expecting to get the ball back and we never hit, allowing the opposing team to take the full 35 seconds and bury a jumper.

K has run two-for-one for his entire career. So, if Duke has ended halves well for 30 years, it suggests that two-for-one does, in fact, sometimes work.

moonpie23
02-12-2012, 09:07 AM
It appears that Stoglin has vented his frustration on Twitter. It's been removed but the MD 24/7 board has a screenshot. There will be a prayer meeting between the coach and him.

link?

bonanzajellydog
02-12-2012, 09:15 AM
link?

http://i.imgur.com/bnNTQ.jpg

and here's a thread discussing it:

at IC (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=8693894), unfortunately.

moonpie23
02-12-2012, 09:18 AM
wow.....i can only imagine what K would do with a player twitting that....

Fish80
02-12-2012, 09:25 AM
The Plumlee Plumlee double double double double. Would that make it a Plumlee quadruple:rolleyes:?

Plumtastic?

Zoubekian?

Zincredible?

Plumnomenal?

OK, I'll quit there:o.

plumerical? plumposterous? pludicrous?

OldPhiKap
02-12-2012, 11:36 AM
http://i.imgur.com/bnNTQ.jpg

and here's a thread discussing it:

at IC (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=78&f=1410&t=8693894), unfortunately.

Props to this IC post:


Well, it's good to see that a college education has not gone wasted on this articulate young scholar-athlete.

RockyMtDevil
02-12-2012, 12:33 PM
K has run two-for-one for his entire career. So, if Duke has ended halves well for 30 years, it suggests that two-for-one does, in fact, sometimes work.

Name one time it has worked this year? I'm not talking about the last 30 years, I'm talking about the ability of this team to run 2 for 1.

uh_no
02-12-2012, 12:43 PM
plumerical? plumposterous? pludicrous?

Plumjoy, Plumionnaire, Plumamanjaro, plumming spree, double plum, plumpocalypse

roywhite
02-12-2012, 01:10 PM
Plumjoy, Plumionnaire, Plumamanjaro, plumming spree, double plum, plumpocalypse

Pluperfect.

Ultrarunner
02-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Name one time it has worked this year? I'm not talking about the last 30 years, I'm talking about the ability of this team to run 2 for 1.

Against MSU, Seth Curry scores with 47 seconds left on the clock without using the full shot clock. Miles rebounds a MSU miss with 17 seconds. Austin is fouled, Duke gets the ball back, Austin travels. I'd define that as working though we only got one bucket instead of two unless of course you are demanding a perfect shooting percentage on these shots. In the above example, even if Duke holds the ball, MSU will have a chance to shoot though with less time on the clock. Not sure that sacrificing a possession helps us overall but feel free to fill in the details....

We similarly executed it in the Davidson, Tennessee and Temple games.

We're still getting two possessions to one and, on my limited search - something you probably could do too! - it looks we're pretty effective on the first shot with the second being less successful. I'm pretty sure that if I wanted to devoted the time to it, I could find more examples. Also, the success rate should go up as this young team practices the scenario in end of half and endgame situations. That's the usual process - practice something that you perform poorly until you perform better. This applies to teams and strategies just as much as individual player development. Expecting perfection at the beginning of the process seems unreasonable.

In the post that Jim Sumner was responding to you stated that


One thing that continues to baffle is our inability to close out the first half and K's insistence on going 2 for 1 and it has NEVER worked!!

Jim responded specifically to that comment and you immediately moved the goalposts. Not sporting.

RockyMtDevil
02-12-2012, 02:27 PM
In our last 11 games, we are a -20 points cumulative against our opponents in the final 60 seconds of the half. In every scenario, the two for one has not worked at all. The major strategy is for Seth to launch a three with about :51 left and then chaos insues.

Against Ga. Tech, we were -3 in the final minute
Va. Tech, -3
UNC: -3
UVA: -1
MD, game one: -2
Wake: -2

I won't list them all. That's a 20 point deficit in just 11 minutes of the final half of those 11 games. Not only that, the carryover to the second half has is an emotional killer...It's so glaring because we are historically so good at this facet of the game...

OldPhiKap
02-12-2012, 02:34 PM
Name one time it has worked this year? I'm not talking about the last 30 years, I'm talking about the ability of this team to run 2 for 1.

Hopefully, the next one. Isn't that why you practice this in game situations?

Assuming that we agree it is a good strategy if executed properly, and assuming arguendo that we take it as given that this team struggles with it, we have two choices:

1. Abandon a proven strategy because our guys just can't do it; or
2. Keep practicing it in game situations until we get it right.

I favor the latter, I take it you favor the former. No?

Ultrarunner
02-12-2012, 03:23 PM
In our last 11 games, we are a -20 points cumulative against our opponents in the final 60 seconds of the half. In every scenario, the two for one has not worked at all. The major strategy is for Seth to launch a three with about :51 left and then chaos insues.

Against Ga. Tech, we were -3 in the final minute
Va. Tech, -3
UNC: -3
UVA: -1
MD, game one: -2
Wake: -2

I won't list them all. That's a 20 point deficit in just 11 minutes of the final half of those 11 games. Not only that, the carryover to the second half has is an emotional killer...It's so glaring because we are historically so good at this facet of the game...

Yet again, you move the goalposts. At first it was that it never worked. Then, it hasn't worked for this years team. Now it's the last 11 games. And even then, you don't include stats for all of them and do not distiguish better halves that closed on a 2for1 option and those that didn't.

So, working backward....

MD +5, Ryan with a 3, Mason with two FT, Miles with a rebound with 5 seconds left, Thornton misses a half-court shot.

Oh wait - it never works? It did in the very last game we played.....but let's go down the list.

UNC - we don't play 2for1 and hold the ball. Quin gets blocked, Seth turns it over, Bullock scores. Fail to see how this is an improvement.

Miama - Ryan misses with 43 seconds left to the half. Miami scores on a FT after 2 offensive rebounds. We never get the ball back after the first miss. A defensive rebounding failure, not a strategy failure.

VT- Duke gets the ball at 47 seconds. Quin puts up a 3 that misses at 36 seconds - 2for1 does apply since there is not enough differential on the clock. First Duke shot was a made 3 at 1:12 on the clock by Quin. Over the last 2 minutes, we play even.

SJU - Off a made shot by SJU at 1:06, Seth shoots at the :57 and misses. If Seth holds the ball and misses and SJU still makes their shot (at :17) but slid for the time that we helf the ball, Ryan's dunk at :06 doesn't happen. 2for1 operated successfully.

MD (1) - After Tyler converts shot +1 for a three point play at 1:09, we get two possessions, take one shot. At 40 seconds we hold instead of going 2for1 and Austin fouls at :08.

FSU - Austin hits a 3 at 1:01, Mason blocks James at :045. Duke holds the ball for 33 seconds before missing a shot.

WF - Andre misses a 3 with 51 seconds left in the half and 11 seconds into the shot clock, Wake comes down and hits a layup. Austin hits a layup for 2 points with :09 on the clock. Just like the SJU game, we hold the ball, we lose a bucket as Wake plays for last shot.

So it worked this weekend, for the SJU and WFU games. We didn't employ it at the end of half at UNC (and got burned), didn't properly employ it at VT but play them even over the last two minutes, didn't use it against FSU (and got burned). At Miami, we broke down on the boards which makes the whole process moot - we could hold the ball for the full 35 seconds but if we give them three shots to close out the half, it won't end well.

I would say that, when we have gone two for one, we have done reasonably well getting at least one bucket. When we haven't attacked, we have suffered which just feeds into a pet theory of mine that this team needs to be in attack mode on offense constantly and, when they are, the defense is better.

So, where do you intend to move the goalposts to now?

RockyMtDevil
02-12-2012, 04:07 PM
You have a lot of time on your hands to personally go after an argument about 2 for 1. Good for you!

None of what I posted is inaccurate. We haven't executed it well in the last 11 straight games giving us a -20 deficit in the final minute of those games. St. John's was a 0 plus or minus, so no harm there, but the other end of halfs didn't end well. I can't find a game in these 11 where we came out on top based on the execution of this strategy. Can you?

I'm sure I overstated in saying "it never works", but good grief let's allow a bit of hyperbole. 11 straight times would lead someone to say that, don't you think?

And your analagy of moving goal posts...you must have played baseball, or is it soccer?

DesertDevil
02-12-2012, 04:13 PM
Props to this IC post:


Stoglin is from here in Tucson. A friend of mine was his conditioning coach, so I've met him a couple times. He's actually a pretty nice kid, but Turgeon won't put up with that kind of stuff. I have a feeling you'll see a game suspension on this one.

RockyMtDevil
02-12-2012, 04:16 PM
Hopefully, the next one. Isn't that why you practice this in game situations?

Assuming that we agree it is a good strategy if executed properly, and assuming arguendo that we take it as given that this team struggles with it, we have two choices:

1. Abandon a proven strategy because our guys just can't do it; or
2. Keep practicing it in game situations until we get it right.

I favor the latter, I take it you favor the former. No?

I'm not sure I have a stance, other than tactically we seem to struggle putting two good possessions together in the final seconds. I'd say if there is more than 55 seconds left, it's a good strategy to employ, if we execute it well. If less time than this, I'm not sure I like it because we either rush a shot just to get a shot up, or when we do get a decent shot, it's with roughly 38 seconds left, meaning we really won't get a second shot after all. In most cases, I'd rather run one really good set that we believe will work and hope to get 1 stop, going into the half on an upswing. Especially depending on who gets the ball first in the second half...Just think we've been greedy with a young, inexperienced team and it's not worked well.

Newton_14
02-12-2012, 04:43 PM
You have a lot of time on your hands to personally go after an argument about 2 for 1. Good for you!

None of what I posted is inaccurate. We haven't executed it well in the last 11 straight games giving us a -20 deficit in the final minute of those games. St. John's was a 0 plus or minus, so no harm there, but the other end of halfs didn't end well. I can't find a game in these 11 where we came out on top based on the execution of this strategy. Can you?

I'm sure I overstated in saying "it never works", but good grief let's allow a bit of hyperbole. 11 straight times would lead someone to say that, don't you think?

And your analagy of moving goal posts...you must have played baseball, or is it soccer?

Except that Ultra just showed you that it has worked in some of the last 11 games, yet you insist on sticking with your line "It hasn't worked on 11 straight games". Hyperbole is one thing. Being absolutely wrong is another matter altogether.

Greg_Newton
02-12-2012, 04:47 PM
Funny thing is I can remember being frustrated in the past because we didn't take advantage of 2-for-1 situations. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but it seems like we often failed to go for the 2-for-1 in the Singler/Scheyer/Smith years.

It's really just simple math, though. I mean, obviously you don't want to rush a shot with 38 seconds left, but it's hard to argue against taking a shot at ~50-55 seconds. Sounds like your issue is more with execution and clock awareness.

RockyMtDevil
02-12-2012, 05:26 PM
Except that Ultra just showed you that it has worked in some of the last 11 games, yet you insist on sticking with your line "It hasn't worked on 11 straight games". Hyperbole is one thing. Being absolutely wrong is another matter altogether.

He left out that Va Tech ended the half with a 3 and so did FSU. He actually "changes the goalposts" himself by bringing in the last two minutes of the half, instead of the original argument of the last 60 seconds of the half. it has not worked to our advantage in these games. Why would you take his word over mine except that their is a bias going on once again....If ending the last 60 seconds "even" means it has worked, then sure. Ending the last 60 seconds of the half with a numerical advantage is what I am referring to, and each time that has not happened.

Ultrarunner
02-12-2012, 05:42 PM
You have a lot of time on your hands to personally go after an argument about 2 for 1. Good for you!

None of what I posted is inaccurate. We haven't executed it well in the last 11 straight games giving us a -20 deficit in the final minute of those games. St. John's was a 0 plus or minus, so no harm there, but the other end of halfs didn't end well. I can't find a game in these 11 where we came out on top based on the execution of this strategy. Can you?

I'm sure I overstated in saying "it never works", but good grief let's allow a bit of hyperbole. 11 straight times would lead someone to say that, don't you think?

And your analagy of moving goal posts...you must have played baseball, or is it soccer?

In the world of what have you done for me lately, Maryland. +5 in the last 1:01, +2 in the last minute.

We scored at the 1:01 mark (conveniently outside your "last minute" limit) at FSU. We held the ball for 33 seconds, got another shot off, missed. FSU hits their last shot. Over the last 1:01, even. Big shot by Snaer? You bet but not a result of going 2 for 1. At some point, the other team is allowed to have the ball. They executed on offense and we didn't on defense. Fault our defense it you like but it has nothing with trying to go 2for1.

Wake Forest was even over the last minute or so but we shot at :51 of the clock on our next to last attempt and making 1-2 with the second shot dropping after holding the ball on the last possession for 32 seconds. So we were successful there in gaining the additional opportunity and, with it, the second field goal.

You are defining success as outscoring the opponent over x time. In doing so, you are ignoring the defensive end of the floor (Miami got two offensive rebounds which negates the strategy as you don't gain the second possession anyway), events happening within the window that a 2for1 one can occur (35 second shot clock puts us at 1:10) rather than an arbitrary time frame (1 minute), and shooting percentages. Even if we get two shots for one, the odds are we'll only make slightly less one of them on average since we shoot 47.6 percent from the field.

So that's three occassions in the last several weeks that we have been successful in running a 2for1 option on offense. Ending with extra points is nice but doing it 100 percent of the time is wildly unrealistic. The goal is to gain additional opportunities to score.

Ultrarunner
02-12-2012, 05:44 PM
He left out that Va Tech ended the half with a 3 and so did FSU. He actually "changes the goalposts" himself by bringing in the last two minutes of the half, instead of the original argument of the last 60 seconds of the half. it has not worked to our advantage in these games. Why would you take his word over mine except that their is a bias going on once again....If ending the last 60 seconds "even" means it has worked, then sure. Ending the last 60 seconds of the half with a numerical advantage is what I am referring to, and each time that has not happened.

The fact that both VT and FSU hit shots is not an indictment of going 2 for 1. It is an indictment of the defense.

Acymetric
02-12-2012, 07:20 PM
Funny thing is I can remember being frustrated in the past because we didn't take advantage of 2-for-1 situations. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but it seems like we often failed to go for the 2-for-1 in the Singler/Scheyer/Smith years.

It's really just simple math, though. I mean, obviously you don't want to rush a shot with 38 seconds left, but it's hard to argue against taking a shot at ~50-55 seconds. Sounds like your issue is more with execution and clock awareness.

Same for me...I remember for a long time wishing we went for the 2 for 1 more often. I guess I'll defer to Jim's memory on this one but it seems to me going 2 for 1 is a recent development for Duke. Either way, I think its a strong strategy.

sagegrouse
02-12-2012, 11:53 PM
Same for me...I remember for a long time wishing we went for the 2 for 1 more often. I guess I'll defer to Jim's memory on this one but it seems to me going 2 for 1 is a recent development for Duke. Either way, I think its a strong strategy.

The other point that can be made is that "2-for-1 is an arrow in the quiver of the Duke basketball team." To use it, the team needs to practice it. Therefore, we do, even if the results are not so great. It is a lesser version of the "slowdown at the end of the game." While sometimes the slowdown produces bad results, it is really good to be able to slow down the game without losing offensive efficiency. So, we practice it. Seems like a good idea, although the only teams in my memory that were really good at executing the slowdown had Nolan Smith in the backcourt. But K presumably thinks that the 2-for-1 and the slowdown are useful, and that we need to improve; therefore, we continue to use them.

On the subject of the slowdown, I was amused to see that State, with a 4-6 point lead late against Ga. Tech, was running its normal offense and getting off shots in 10-15 seconds instead of milking the clock for 25-30 seconds. Seemed weird to me.

sagegrouse

UrinalCake
02-13-2012, 08:24 AM
Anyone catch Mark Turgeon's comments about Stoglin after the game? They were pretty harsh.


Well, they just weren't going to let Terrell beat them. That's the reason [Coach K] has won 900-something games. He is no dummy. They weren't going to let Terrell beat them, and he can't handle it. Then, we get frustrated because he throws out of the double team, and guys aren't making plays. So he gets frustrated. His shot selection wasn't great. It was hurting us. We cut it to four without him, so we took him out. We've got to learn from it. We can't shoot shots like that and be a good team on the road, but he has carried us. He has carried us. So, it is just one game. Hopefully we will learn from it and be better on Thursday.

I've not heard a coach call out a player like that. Will be interesting to see how this plays out down the road.

cruxer
02-13-2012, 09:02 AM
I'm not sure I have a stance, other than tactically we seem to struggle putting two good possessions together in the final seconds. I'd say if there is more than 55 seconds left, it's a good strategy to employ, if we execute it well. If less time than this, I'm not sure I like it because we either rush a shot just to get a shot up, or when we do get a decent shot, it's with roughly 38 seconds left, meaning we really won't get a second shot after all. In most cases, I'd rather run one really good set that we believe will work and hope to get 1 stop, going into the half on an upswing. Especially depending on who gets the ball first in the second half...Just think we've been greedy with a young, inexperienced team and it's not worked well.

I've never thought of the 2 for 1 strategy as being geared towards getting 2 good possessions at the end. Isn't it really about exactly what it says, getting 2 shots to the other guys 1 and making sure you shoot last? I would imagine statistically getting 2 marginal shots is better than 1 good shot since even good shooting teams rarely reach 50% shooting for a game. Of course getting 2 shots is predicated on doing things like defending and rebounding when the other guy gets their shot. At times we've struggled in those 2 aspects of the game regardless of time on the clock.

-c

Billy Dat
02-13-2012, 10:13 AM
I had DVRed the game and found out the result before watching it so it took me a few days to get to it. After watching it, a couple of things stood out that I hadn't seen discussed yet. Before getting to that, I agree that the defense looked really good, that we are a bad match-up for the Terps because of our size, etc.

-All year long, I didn't feel like we were the stereotypical Duke "live by the 3, die by the 3" squad because we often started possessions with some kind of entry pass. However, in the UNC game, because of their inside strength, we started shooting them a lot more. I saw that trend continue in the Maryland game. Checking the stats, we were averaging just under 20 3 point attempts per game prior to the Miami game. Over the last 3 games, we have averaged 30 per game (24, 36 and 31). With the Miami and UNC bigs clogging the middle, I can understand that, but we shot 24 against Maryland...I wonder if the coaches suggested we hunt that shot more, or is it simply Austin's growing confidence in the shot, because his 3 point attempts per game have also jumped recently.

-I am sure that many of you are keeping tabs on the Jeremy Lin phenomenon in the NBA. As a Knicks fan, I have watched every game of this 5 game winning streak the Knicks are on and it has been a revelation. Via one point guard who penetrates to keep the defense honest and looks to get guys shots in the right spot, the Knicks offense went from clogged toilet (to use a Simmonsism) to open and flowing. I bring this up because despite our offensive efficiency, our offense still is not pretty. Rivers has gotten a lot better at drawing the defense and passing, but his passes are still just a little off - they are a second slow or to the wrong side of the recipient meaning that the guy isn't quite ready to shoot upon catch. I disclaim that his lobs typically don't have this problem, but his drive and kicks do. Much of our offense comes from guys breaking down the D with individual moves...Rivers, Curry, Mason, Kelly. I think Rivers is our best hope, for this season, at having a Lin-like play maker.

-I wish Curry would keep hunting for that midrange floater, using his 3 point shooting rep to lure the close-out and blow by for that teardrop. It's so effective and really keeps the D guessing.

-In several recent games, we have now seen Ryan Kelly burst (is that giving him too much credit for speed) through a seam and finish at the rim with dunks. I just wanted to say how much I like that.

DukieInBrasil
02-13-2012, 10:38 AM
-I wish Curry would keep hunting for that midrange floater, using his 3 point shooting rep to lure the close-out and blow by for that teardrop. It's so effective and really keeps the D guessing.

-In several recent games, we have now seen Ryan Kelly burst (is that giving him too much credit for speed) through a seam and finish at the rim with dunks. I just wanted to say how much I like that.

Good observations, which i have also pondered. I have been especially pleased with the Ryan Kelly Blow-by Thunder-dunk Express ;) (ok, so maybe that's a bit hyperbolically named)

gus
02-13-2012, 11:07 AM
-I wish Curry would keep hunting for that midrange floater, using his 3 point shooting rep to lure the close-out and blow by for that teardrop. It's so effective and really keeps the D guessing.

I'm not so sure the mid-range floater is a worthwile shot in college basketball. I think the drop in accuracy stepping back a few feet behind the arc is more than made up for with the extra point.

COYS
02-13-2012, 11:57 AM
I'm not so sure the mid-range floater is a worthwile shot in college basketball. I think the drop in accuracy stepping back a few feet behind the arc is more than made up for with the extra point.

I think the floater within 10 feet of the goal is a very good shot. And Seth seems pretty adept at hitting it. Also, keep in mind that Seth's ability to get by defenders and hit that floater will only make it easier for him to get outside shots. If the floater were Seth's only offense, I'd be more concerned. However, if he can use it to force defenders to sag off of him more at the perimeter, then it only increases his chances of getting quality looks from three.

roywhite
02-13-2012, 12:05 PM
I think the floater within 10 feet of the goal is a very good shot. And Seth seems pretty adept at hitting it. Also, keep in mind that Seth's ability to get by defenders and hit that floater will only make it easier for him to get outside shots. If the floater were Seth's only offense, I'd be more concerned. However, if he can use it to force defenders to sag off of him more at the perimeter, then it only increases his chances of getting quality looks from three.

We've also seen observations here that Seth has some trouble when going against taller defenders, guards in the 6'4" to 6'6" range.
Use of the shot fake, more drives, using pull-ups, and floaters are all weapons against some of those defenders, which will in turn lead to more room for good looks from 3-pt. I see Seth's game picking up after a bit of a slump, as we head down the stretch.

gus
02-13-2012, 12:16 PM
I think the floater within 10 feet of the goal is a very good shot. And Seth seems pretty adept at hitting it. Also, keep in mind that Seth's ability to get by defenders and hit that floater will only make it easier for him to get outside shots. If the floater were Seth's only offense, I'd be more concerned. However, if he can use it to force defenders to sag off of him more at the perimeter, then it only increases his chances of getting quality looks from three.

Billy said "floater" and I was thinking of an entirely different shot: a midrange jumpshot (~15-18 ft).

Newton_14
02-13-2012, 07:00 PM
I had DVRed the game and found out the result before watching it so it took me a few days to get to it. After watching it, a couple of things stood out that I hadn't seen discussed yet. Before getting to that, I agree that the defense looked really good, that we are a bad match-up for the Terps because of our size, etc.

-All year long, I didn't feel like we were the stereotypical Duke "live by the 3, die by the 3" squad because we often started possessions with some kind of entry pass. However, in the UNC game, because of their inside strength, we started shooting them a lot more. I saw that trend continue in the Maryland game. Checking the stats, we were averaging just under 20 3 point attempts per game prior to the Miami game. Over the last 3 games, we have averaged 30 per game (24, 36 and 31). With the Miami and UNC bigs clogging the middle, I can understand that, but we shot 24 against Maryland...I wonder if the coaches suggested we hunt that shot more, or is it simply Austin's growing confidence in the shot, because his 3 point attempts per game have also jumped recently.-I am sure that many of you are keeping tabs on the Jeremy Lin phenomenon in the NBA. As a Knicks fan, I have watched every game of this 5 game winning streak the Knicks are on and it has been a revelation. Via one point guard who penetrates to keep the defense honest and looks to get guys shots in the right spot, the Knicks offense went from clogged toilet (to use a Simmonsism) to open and flowing. I bring this up because despite our offensive efficiency, our offense still is not pretty. Rivers has gotten a lot better at drawing the defense and passing, but his passes are still just a little off - they are a second slow or to the wrong side of the recipient meaning that the guy isn't quite ready to shoot upon catch. I disclaim that his lobs typically don't have this problem, but his drive and kicks do. Much of our offense comes from guys breaking down the D with individual moves...Rivers, Curry, Mason, Kelly. I think Rivers is our best hope, for this season, at having a Lin-like play maker.

-I wish Curry would keep hunting for that midrange floater, using his 3 point shooting rep to lure the close-out and blow by for that teardrop. It's so effective and really keeps the D guessing.

-In several recent games, we have now seen Ryan Kelly burst (is that giving him too much credit for speed) through a seam and finish at the rim with dunks. I just wanted to say how much I like that.

Good post Billy. Regarding the strategy with the 3 Ball, Coach K explained this in a "read between the lines" kind of way in his post game interview with Bob Harris in the locker room after the Maryland game. He said that the gameplan for the UNC game had a different "approach" than the Maryland game, but he felt that in the first half of the Maryland game, the guy's were still somewhat stuck in the UNC game plan.

Translation: The game plan for the UNC game was to take advantage of UNC's defensive weakness and shoot way more 3's than normal. The game plan for Maryland was to take advantage of Maryland's defensive weakness and pound the ball inside as well as attacking the basket off the dribble. The guy's shot too many 3's in the first half and the staff had to rein them in and remind them to stick to the Maryland game plan.

The funny thing to me is how dense most of the media heads are. If you listen to the talking heads, Duke shoots 36 3's every game and they can't score any other way. Thus the "Live By the 3, Die by the 3" mantra. Not true at all. That was a UNC specific game plan. Throughout the season, there has been great balance on the offensive end.
Duke uses the 3 as a component of the offense, but has also used post offense with the bigs, as well as dribble penetration. Very diverse offense with multiple options.

subzero02
02-13-2012, 08:14 PM
I'm not so sure the mid-range floater is a worthwile shot in college basketball. I think the drop in accuracy stepping back a few feet behind the arc is more than made up for with the extra point.


Ed Cota made a living off the Cota Floata

Billy Dat
02-14-2012, 10:25 AM
Ed Cota made a living off the Cota Floata

Agree...to me, the absolute maestro of that shot was Charles Smith of Georgetown. Feel free to insert a comment about how it didn't make much of a difference in the 1988 East Regional Final.

jimsumner
02-14-2012, 10:27 AM
Agree...to me, the absolute maestro of that shot was Charles Smith of Georgetown. Feel free to insert a comment about how it didn't make much of a difference in the 1988 East Regional Final.

That would be 1989. But you knew that.

Chris Duhon developed that shot nicely. Beat Wake Forest with it in 2001.

Indoor66
02-14-2012, 11:14 AM
That would be 1989. But you knew that.

Chris Duhon developed that shot nicely. Beat Wake Forest with it in 2001.

Chris still uses the shot quite effectively with Orlando in the NBA.

oldnavy
02-14-2012, 11:20 AM
Anyone catch Mark Turgeon's comments about Stoglin after the game? They were pretty harsh.



I've not heard a coach call out a player like that. Will be interesting to see how this plays out down the road.

Well to be fair to Turgin I have not seen a player that played more selfish than Stoglin in some time. My guess is that Turgin has had multiple private discussions with him and is now at his wits end and is trying a little public tounge lashing to see it that gets the point across. I don't follow the terps and don't know enough about what has happened in this dynamic... but you raise a very good point, that it will be interesting to see how it plays out...

UrinalCake
02-14-2012, 11:23 AM
Kind of reminds me of John Gilchrist, another uber-talented point guard of theirs who didn't have the mental maturity.

Billy Dat
02-14-2012, 04:00 PM
That would be 1989. But you knew that.

Chris Duhon developed that shot nicely. Beat Wake Forest with it in 2001.

Good call, Jim...I guess that's why publications have fact checkers! In my haste, I forgot to credit Duhon. In at least one of K's books, he talks about the Duhon teardrop extensively, calling it the "Giant Killer".

BluDvlsN1
02-14-2012, 04:44 PM
Good post Billy. Regarding the strategy with the 3 Ball, Coach K explained this in a "read between the lines" kind of way in his post game interview with Bob Harris in the locker room after the Maryland game. He said that the gameplan for the UNC game had a different "approach" than the Maryland game, but he felt that in the first half of the Maryland game, the guy's were still somewhat stuck in the UNC game plan.

Translation: The game plan for the UNC game was to take advantage of UNC's defensive weakness and shoot way more 3's than normal. The game plan for Maryland was to take advantage of Maryland's defensive weakness and pound the ball inside as well as attacking the basket off the dribble. The guy's shot too many 3's in the first half and the staff had to rein them in and remind them to stick to the Maryland game plan.

The funny thing to me is how dense most of the media heads are. If you listen to the talking heads, Duke shoots 36 3's every game and they can't score any other way. Thus the "Live By the 3, Die by the 3" mantra. Not true at all. That was a UNC specific game plan. Throughout the season, there has been great balance on the offensive end.
Duke uses the 3 as a component of the offense, but has also used post offense with the bigs, as well as dribble penetration. Very diverse offense with multiple options.


Newt,
I think this is spot on thinking!!

When I taped the nc game and because of the overtime the 1st 1min 45ish sec weren't there!
Watching the Espn edited game replay, I rewatched that 1st segment over a few times!
Austin got off quick, so did Mason , actually Mason 1st took it off the dribble for the score!
He was energized on defense with a block and was well positioned in the post for a feed that he didnt get!

It's only 2 min,yes, but I think the more touches he gets early in the possession the more effective he and the team will be going forward, and can only open up the wings and 3ball even more!'

Even when the post move wasnt there it created some situations to get the other bigs in foul trouble !

With the way these guys are looking for one another, really good things can continue to materialize!

We have a lot of tools to adapt to various competitor team makeups as you pointed out very well!