Jeremy Lin

[Ping Lin]

In his first start, became the first player to register at least 28 points and 8 assists in his first start since Isaiah Thomas, over 30 years ago.

In his second start, became the first player to register at least 20 points and 8 assists in his first two starts since Lebron James, 9 nine years ago.

In his third start, became the player with the most points in his first three starts since the NBA/ABA merger. (More than MJ, Lebron, Larry Legend, Shaq, etc. etc.)

Unbelievable!

Ping "no relation...I wish" Lin

[moonpie23]

he's ballin

[darthur]

Anyone following him? I know DBR ran a couple stories but I haven't seen any discussion. Just a refresher for those people who don't follow the NBA:

- He was not given a scholarship offer to any university.
- He was not drafted in the NBA.
- Last year he played 29 games for the Warriors and averaged a grand total of 2.6 points per game on 39% shooting.
- After being waived by two NBA teams this year, the Knicks picked him up because one of their guards was injured.
- He has now played 5 games for the Knicks. In the last 4, he has scored 25, 28, 23, and 38 points, shooting over 50% in all four games. During those games, the Knicks have been 4-0 even though their two stars have been out. They had gone 2-12 the previous 14 games.
- At halftime tonight, Magic Johnson compared him to Steve Nash and John Stockton.
- Oh and he's a Harvard grad and the first Asian American to ever play in the NBA.

I have never seen anything like it. Will this go down as the beginning of one of the all-time great feel-good stories in sports?

[InSpades]

It's an amazing story no doubt. In his 1st 3 starts he's put up #s that basically no one outside of Lebron James has put up.

I'm a bit worried about what will happen when the Knicks stars return however. He can probably play w/ Amare (who will appreciate having him there to run the pick and roll) but Carmelo is used to having the ball in his hands. Hopefully they can peacefully co-exist. The Knicks offense looks 10 times better with Lin at the helm.

And what a humble kid. He's been sleeping on his brother's couch since he didn't have a guaranteed contract and didn't know if he'd stick w/ the team. In the interview after the game tonight he was asked how it felt to score 38 points and all he talked about what his teammates.

[sagegrouse]

Anyone following him? I know DBR ran a couple stories but I haven't seen any discussion. Just a refresher for those people who don't follow the NBA:

- He was not given a scholarship offer to any university.
- He was not drafted in the NBA.
- Last year he played 29 games for the Warriors and averaged a grand total of 2.6 points per game on 39% shooting.
- After being waived by two NBA teams this year, the Knicks picked him up because one of their guards was injured.
- He has now played 5 games for the Knicks. In the last 4, he has scored 25, 28, 23, and 38 points, shooting over 50% in all four games. During those games, the Knicks have been 4-0 even though their two stars have been out. They had gone 2-12 the previous 14 games.
- At halftime tonight, Magic Johnson compared him to Steve Nash and John Stockton.
- Oh and he's a Harvard grad and the first Asian American to ever play in the NBA.

I have never seen anything like it. Will this go down as the beginning of one of the all-time great feel-good stories in sports?

I doubted your point that he had received no scholarship offers, but -- according to the Wiki folks -- it is apparently true.

I noted that his Wikipedia article has already been updated for last night's 38 points. I guess going to Palo Alto High and Harvard had something to do with it.

sage

[theAlaskanBear]

Oh man, this is great. Lin has been phenominal. I think the Knicks have found their point guard. It's cool to see how much better the Knicks are when someone which ball movement and court vision dominates the ball as opposed to score first,second,third Melo. Hopefully you hear all the New Yorkers shut up about how D'Antoni can't coach. Point guards matter!

I don't think its quite accurate to compare his first starts with LeBron though...LeBron was 19 and coming out of highschool. Jeremy Lin spent what 3-4 years in school, bounced around the league for 2...

You can tell he sees this as his shot to make it in the NBA and he is seizing it. He will not be denied. Its a great story.I might be able to root for the Knicks again (I stopped after the Melo trade Walsh leaving).

[moonpie23]

i loved watching him last night.....he is the ANTI typical nba character.....

[sagegrouse]

Oh man, this is great. Lin has been phenominal. I think the Knicks have found their point guard. It's cool to see how much better the Knicks are when someone which ball movement and court vision dominates the ball as opposed to score first,second,third Melo. Hopefully you hear all the New Yorkers shut up about how D'Antoni can't coach. Point guards matter!

I don't think its quite accurate to compare his first starts with LeBron though...LeBron was 19 and coming out of highschool. Jeremy Lin spent what 3-4 years in school, bounced around the league for 2...

You can tell he sees this as his shot to make it in the NBA and he is seizing it. He will not be denied. Its a great story.I might be able to root for the Knicks again (I stopped after the Melo trade Walsh leaving).

The performance and win against the road-weary Lakers came without Amare and Carmelo in the lineup. It'll be interesting to see how Lin's role adjusts when the two stars return. Also, is Baron Davis expected back at any time?

sagegrouse

[TigerDevil]

- Oh and he's a Harvard grad and the first Asian American to ever play in the NBA.


According to one article I read, he's actually the fourth Asian American to play in the NBA.

[pamtar]

Hopefully the fact that he played for Amaker will be enough to keep this thread on the EKB.

I was kinda skeptical so I watched the game last night and oh my god, this kid is legit. Great quote from Tyson Chandler after the game saying along the lines of "you can tell when a guy is not very good but has a group of games when he's just on - this isn't like that.". I felt that Lin might be one of those anomalies as well. But once you make dropping 38 and 7 on the lakers look easy, you have arrived.

Im kinda worried how he'll incorporate into a Carmelo/Amar'e offense. Carmelo has shown he can play well with a decent PG (Billups/Lawson). Amar'e learned under Nash so no problem there. My only question is how do you fit all three on the floor at the same time and still play team ball? Carmelo is gonna want his touches whether he's earned them or not. D'antoni may need to refer to his days as K's Olympic assistant. Also, what if Baron Davis plays decent? Too many good players is a great problem to have but it looks like somebody is gonna have to sacrifice some minutes at some point.

I'd trade Carmelo for two good wings.

[juise]

According to one article I read, he's actually the fourth Asian American to play in the NBA.

Yesterday on NPR they said he was the first USA-born Asian-Amercian to play in the NBA (check out this link (http://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146709347/college-basketball-season-heats-up), which starts with conversation about Duke-UNC).

[roywhite]

Hopefully the fact that he played for Amaker will be enough to keep this thread on the EKB.

I was kinda skeptical so I watched the game last night and oh my god, this kid is legit. Great quote from Tyson Chandler after the game saying along the lines of "you can tell when a guy is not very good but has a group of games when he's just on - this isn't like that.". I felt that Lin might be one of those anomalies as well. But once you make dropping 38 and 7 on the lakers look easy, you have arrived.

Im kinda worried how he'll incorporate into a Carmelo/Amar'e offense. Carmelo has shown he can play well with a decent PG (Billups/Lawson). Amar'e learned under Nash so no problem there. My only question is how do you fit all three on the floor at the same time and still play team ball? Carmelo is gonna want his touches whether he's earned them or not. D'antoni may need to refer to his days as K's Olympic assistant. Also, what if Baron Davis plays decent? Too many good players is a great problem to have but it looks like somebody is gonna have to sacrifice some minutes at some point.

I'd trade Carmelo for two good wings.

Is it a better question to ask how Carmelo will incorporate into Lin's offense?

With Lin at PG, the Knicks, who were sub-.500 previously, are 4-0, or 3-0 in games he has started. In addition to Lin's scoring, he is also moving the ball well and the team in general is playing well. Stoudamire IMO should adjust fairly well to this offense. Carmelo is another question; he has tremendous one-on-one and scoring skills but holds the ball for long periods of time, which is not the way the Knicks have played with Lin in the lineup.

I'd say the team has to go the way of the successful point guard play, and not a style where Carmelo dominates the ball. Not an easy issue though.

[pamtar]

Is it a better question to ask how Carmelo will incorporate into Lin's offense?

With Lin at PG, the Knicks, who were sub-.500 previously, are 4-0, or 3-0 in games he has started. In addition to Lin's scoring, he is also moving the ball well and the team in general is playing well. Stoudamire IMO should adjust fairly well to this offense. Carmelo is another question; he has tremendous one-on-one and scoring skills but holds the ball for long periods of time, which is not the way the Knicks have played with Lin in the lineup.

I'd say the team has to go the way of the successful point guard play, and not a style where Carmelo dominates the ball. Not an easy issue though.

Totally agree here. That's why I said I'd trade Carmelo. (Is that even possible based on his contract?) Assuming Lin keeps this up it has become his offense. I'd really hate to see the Knicks go back to the slower pace after Carmelo comes back. If D'antoni can figure out how to make everyone happy, and keep winning, he'll keep his job.

[Chris Randolph]

Love to watch this kid play the game. Smart, crafty, confident, and has more quicks than defenders give him credit for. It truly is amazing what he is doing for this team. They are winning games, I'll be it against 3 terrible teams and 1 good team, and he has very little help around him. I do feel a little sorry for the kid because the hype machine is out of control. I don't think the kid can get much better right now so when he comes down to earth and the Knicks start losing games (which we know will happen, haha) those NY fans can be harsh. In the meantime, keep it up Lin!

I think the biggest issue for Lin and the Knicks is Carmelo Anthony. As it has already been stated, Carmelo is a ball hog/give it to him and get out of his way. He doesn't want to share the ball or play defense. I've always said Carmelo is overrated and I get so tired of hearing how Carmelo is the "best pure scorer in the world." Give me a break, he is a volume shooter, no volume shooter can be the best scorer IN THE WORLD!

D'Antoni is probably hoping Carmelo stays hurt, haha, because he could have a Phoenix Suns like combo of Nash/Stoudemire, who won a lot of games years ago, with Lin/Stoudemire. I think Amare will thrive when he returns next week because Lin will find him. Should be interesting to watch unfold over the next few months.

[allenmurray]

Carmelo will come back. Lin will get relegated to sub minutes. The team will revert to "me-first" basketball. The Knicks will tank.

Sad, but if I was a gambler I'd put big money on that scenario.

[dukelifer]

No matter what happens- this is the fantasy of anyone who ever shot a basketball - to play in the NBA and have a star performance- even if just for a night. He has done it now for several night in a row. Can he keep it up? Who knows but right now this is what sports is all about. No matter what happens- he had his moment and very few who have played the game in the driveway or D1 ever do.

[Kfanarmy]

watched the last 10 minutes or so of the game last night....what I couldn't believe was that even with his team mates throwing the ball directly to the Lakers on three posessions in the last two minutes, the knicks were able to get back on D and maintain the lead. Lakers did look a little gassed last night, Lin seemed to be one of the fastest guys on the floor.

[hq2]

Got to watch Jeremy play at a Chinese restaurant last night. The waiters and patrons were going over
to watch him; they looked pretty impressed. He's huge in the Asian community.

[Verga3]

If our guards are depleted and if Lin continues to impress, what do you think about his chances to play for his country in London, and for his coach (D'Antoni)? He seems to be a high-character, team guy. Coach K would no doubt love him. Out of the question?

[Indoor66]

If our guards are depleted and if Lin continues to impress, what do you think about his chances to play for his country in London, and for his coach (D'Antoni)? He seems to be a high-character, team guy. Coach K would no doubt love him. Out of the question?

Out of the question. He has far too much to prove before he is ready for the National Team. A couple good games do not a career make.

[Mike Corey]

Lin started to really make some noise in summer 2010, when he showed up John Wall in a summer league game:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvkXmMcGfLo


Of course, he first burst onto the national stage when he put 30 up on Kemba Walker and the Huskies in 2009:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ2mng5e95w&feature=related

[The Gordog]

Anyone following him? I know DBR ran a couple stories but I haven't seen any discussion. Just a refresher for those people who don't follow the NBA:

- He was not given a scholarship offer to any university.
- He was not drafted in the NBA.
- Last year he played 29 games for the Warriors and averaged a grand total of 2.6 points per game on 39% shooting.
- After being waived by two NBA teams this year, the Knicks picked him up because one of their guards was injured.
- He has now played 5 games for the Knicks. In the last 4, he has scored 25, 28, 23, and 38 points, shooting over 50% in all four games. During those games, the Knicks have been 4-0 even though their two stars have been out. They had gone 2-12 the previous 14 games.
- At halftime tonight, Magic Johnson compared him to Steve Nash and John Stockton.
- Oh and he's a Harvard grad and the first Asian American to ever play in the NBA.

I have never seen anything like it. Will this go down as the beginning of one of the all-time great feel-good stories in sports?

This is why I hate the NBA. It's NOT a meritocracy. Big stars play and it's all marketing. Lin did not suddenly become good. Somebody became desperate enough to overcome their racism and favoritism toward those with established names that they can market.

[Verga3]

Out of the question. He has far too much to prove before he is ready for the National Team. A couple good games do not a career make.

You are probably right...even if he keeps it up. What if Kyrie keeps it up? Both have much more to prove, but if guard injuries deplete our roster, K & D will have to bring in someone.

[darthur]

This is why I hate the NBA. It's NOT a meritocracy. Big stars play and it's all marketing. Lin did not suddenly become good. Somebody became desperate enough to overcome their racism and favoritism toward those with established names that they can market.

Three different NBA teams have given him a go in two years, which is more than can be said for the colleges he applied to. If it's racism that prevented him from getting a chance to shine up until now, it is alive and well at all levels, not just the NBA. And anyway, for whatever reason, he really was nowhere near this good last year. Similarly, his college numbers were fine, but nothing that suggested he had a big future in the NBA.

Also: believe me, Jeremy Lin is marketable. He was one of the most popular players on the Warriors even last year.

[pamtar]

This is why I hate the NBA. It's NOT a meritocracy. Big stars play and it's all marketing. Lin did not suddenly become good. Somebody became desperate enough to overcome their racism and favoritism toward those with established names that they can market.

Then why has JJ rode the pine all these years? Conversely, why has Battier held starter minutes for most of his career? I'm not saying I completely disagree with you, but I think NBA marketability is circumstantial. Trust me, if a guy can play than he's gonna get the minutes he deserves. In Lin's case, I'm guessing he's riding a wave of confidence that he may not have had before. Clearly his always had some talent, but when the mental game and the physical game click it can produce dramatic results. Lin just found that combo when the Knicks were short 3 point guards.

[Kdogg]

Anyone following him? I know DBR ran a couple stories but I haven't seen any discussion. Just a refresher for those people who don't follow the NBA:

- He was not given a scholarship offer to any university.
- He was not drafted in the NBA.
- Last year he played 29 games for the Warriors and averaged a grand total of 2.6 points per game on 39% shooting.
- After being waived by two NBA teams this year, the Knicks picked him up because one of their guards was injured.
- He has now played 5 games for the Knicks. In the last 4, he has scored 25, 28, 23, and 38 points, shooting over 50% in all four games. During those games, the Knicks have been 4-0 even though their two stars have been out. They had gone 2-12 the previous 14 games.
- At halftime tonight, Magic Johnson compared him to Steve Nash and John Stockton.
- Oh and he's a Harvard grad and the first Asian American to ever play in the NBA.




- He has a sense of humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9yVnKQNj58

I worry what will happen when the black hole that is Carmelo (and to a lesser extent Amare) return. And to the poster asking him about the national team in London - Not a snow ball's chance in Chapil Hill. The short list is Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Deron Williams. He's no where close to those guys and even if they were all injured Lebron would start at the one. His success is in part to his talent but also in part to the D'Antonio's system.

[Ping Lin]

- He has a sense of humor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9yVnKQNj58

I worry what will happen when the black hole that is Carmelo (and to a lesser extent Amare) return.

Perhaps I'm too close, being situated in NYC and all, but I really don't get the Melo hate. He ran iso to death earlier this season, true, but that's because Douglas was an embarrassment as a PG (and Bibby isn't much better). He really didn't have a choice. When he's been put in a system where the ball is shared -- have we already forgotten the Olympic team with Coach K, where he was one of the most important players on the squad? -- he does just fine, thank you.

And on top of that, Anthony has *already* played on the same court as Lin, when the latter broke out against the Nets. Didn't stop them from winning, and he certainly didn't get in the way of Lin ringing up 25...on the last possessions of that game, he was content to let Lin have the ball in his hands instead.

That said, it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for Melo to take up the slack when he returns... Jeremy is exhausted at this point. (Witness the utterly awful 1-for-13 performance in the second half against Minny this evening.)

[johnb]

Got to watch Jeremy play at a Chinese restaurant last night. The waiters and patrons were going over
to watch him; they looked pretty impressed. He's huge in the Asian community.

I'm not sure which is more amazing, that Lin was able to play another game after stomping the Lakers, or that he chose to do so in a Chinese restaurant (and having been to many NYC Chinese restaurants, it's not like there's a lot of room between tables).

[darthur]

That said, it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for Melo to take up the slack when he returns... Jeremy is exhausted at this point. (Witness the utterly awful 1-for-13 performance in the second half against Minny this evening.)

I think efficiency has to be his biggest concern right now. Clearly he can create off the dribble. But will he fall into the high-turnover low-percentage trap that hit him tonight?

Of course he still got 20 points, a bunch of assists, a bunch of rebounds, some steals, and a win on the road in a back-to-back against a decent team while Melo and Amare were out.

It's fun to follow, although I wish more of his game were on national TV.

[Starter]

As a Knicks fan, I obviously think Lin is pretty amazing. He's pretty much the only thing I like about the team, especially when considering the wretched owner, the clueless and rudderless front office, and the lack of any credible point guards on the team with the exception of Lin. In terms of efficiency, he's actually among the absolute best in the sport in his limited time, and I agree with the poster who pointed out that his turnovers rise and shooting percentage lowers late in games when he's totally exhausted. Lin's been playing heavy minutes due to no credible backup, a sure-fire way to burn him out sooner than later in this offense. People forget, but Chris Duhon was a pretty credible point guard in D'Antoni's system for a couple months before playing with no backup caught up to him and he fell off the table.

Another player who seamlessly fits into D'Antoni's offense when it's working right is Amar'e Stoudemire. Stoudemire has 30 points in one game this year; expect that to change this coming week with a pretty light schedule and a pick and roll point guard. Carmelo... well, who knows? The main problem with Melo isn't that he's not good enough or something, but more that Dolan chose to give up four starters and a couple first-rounders to get him when he could have just waited him out. This would have been a much different, deeper team had that not happened. Melo is a ball-stopper, to be certain, but I'm hoping Lin is going to set him up well enough on fast breaks and pick and rolls that it'll just work. We'll see how it goes; Melo hasn't had much time with Lin and Amar'e has had none.

But there's no reason to expect Lin to regress or anything. He's really got talent (he looked good in very limited time for Golden State), and he's gaining confidence. I think expecting a poor man's Steve Nash is completely acceptable..

[NYC Duke Fan]

As a Knicks fan, I obviously think Lin is pretty amazing. He's pretty much the only thing I like about the team, especially when considering the wretched owner, the clueless and rudderless front office, and the lack of any credible point guards on the team with the exception of Lin. In terms of efficiency, he's actually among the absolute best in the sport in his limited time, and I agree with the poster who pointed out that his turnovers rise and shooting percentage lowers late in games when he's totally exhausted. Lin's been playing heavy minutes due to no credible backup, a sure-fire way to burn him out sooner than later in this offense. People forget, but Chris Duhon was a pretty credible point guard in D'Antoni's system for a couple months before playing with no backup caught up to him and he fell off the table.

Another player who seamlessly fits into D'Antoni's offense when it's working right is Amar'e Stoudemire. Stoudemire has 30 points in one game this year; expect that to change this coming week with a pretty light schedule and a pick and roll point guard. Carmelo... well, who knows? The main problem with Melo isn't that he's not good enough or something, but more that Dolan chose to give up four starters and a couple first-rounders to get him when he could have just waited him out. This would have been a much different, deeper team had that not happened. Melo is a ball-stopper, to be certain, but I'm hoping Lin is going to set him up well enough on fast breaks and pick and rolls that it'll just work. We'll see how it goes; Melo hasn't had much time with Lin and Amar'e has had none.

But there's no reason to expect Lin to regress or anything. He's really got talent (he looked good in very limited time for Golden State), and he's gaining confidence. I think expecting a poor man's Steve Nash is completely acceptable..

I agree with your point that Dolan gave up way too much for Melo but disagree that the Knicks could have waited. There was an NBA lockout looming and Melo wanted to be sure of his money now. There was also the possibility that he could have gotten hurt playing out the season in Denver. If the Knicks did not make the trade Melo probably would have wound up playing for the Nets instead of Deron Williams.

[Ping Lin]

Updated:

In his fourth start, became the only player in NBA history to register at least 20 points and 7 assists a game in his first four starts. Also has scored the most points in his first four starts than anyone since the NBA/ABA merger (topping Iverson).

[duke74]

Forbes' take on the application of Jeremy's rise (seizing his opportunity) to business:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericjackson/2012/02/11/9-lessons-jeremy-lin-can-teach-us-before-we-go-to-work-monday-morning/

[Starter]

I agree with your point that Dolan gave up way too much for Melo but disagree that the Knicks could have waited. There was an NBA lockout looming and Melo wanted to be sure of his money now. There was also the possibility that he could have gotten hurt playing out the season in Denver. If the Knicks did not make the trade Melo probably would have wound up playing for the Nets instead of Deron Williams.

In that case, the Knicks would most likely have had Deron Williams, who Donnie Walsh liked and who would have fit in much better than Carmelo with what they already had. it's not like having Carmelo was the be-all and end-all of basketball. And Carmelo wanted the Knicks above all, he just wouldn't come out and specifically say that, which didn't help matters. What killed them was idiot owner Jimmy Dolan cutting Walsh out of the Carmelo negotiations, destroying all of their leverage. They could have absolutely waited out Carmelo and made him pick between coming to the team he actually wanted to play for, in the biggest market and with the best endorsements, and a different team for more money and less satisfaction. If he picked the latter, you go in another direction.

[COYS]

Perhaps I'm too close, being situated in NYC and all, but I really don't get the Melo hate. He ran iso to death earlier this season, true, but that's because Douglas was an embarrassment as a PG (and Bibby isn't much better). He really didn't have a choice. When he's been put in a system where the ball is shared -- have we already forgotten the Olympic team with Coach K, where he was one of the most important players on the squad? -- he does just fine, thank you.

And on top of that, Anthony has *already* played on the same court as Lin, when the latter broke out against the Nets. Didn't stop them from winning, and he certainly didn't get in the way of Lin ringing up 25...on the last possessions of that game, he was content to let Lin have the ball in his hands instead.

That said, it really wouldn't be such a bad thing for Melo to take up the slack when he returns... Jeremy is exhausted at this point. (Witness the utterly awful 1-for-13 performance in the second half against Minny this evening.)

I think this is a great point, Ping Lin. 'Melo has gotten the reputation as a whiner who can't win even though he willed a Syracuse team to an improbable NCAA title as a freshman. He was picked after Lebron and before Wade in the draft in 2003 and, admittedly, isn't as good as either of those two players. That being said, he's an excellent rebounder for his position in addition to being a devastating scorer. No, he isn't a killer defender, but he also has yet to play for a coach that stresses defense (Karl . . . no way. D'Antoni has a worse rep for D than he deserves, but still has never presided over a killer defenses team). Melo has some flaws, but he's a dang good player who has had no trouble playing within the team concept before. He wasn't any more whiney than the average NBA star angling for a trade. He's also probably slightly less selfish when it comes to assist rate than Durant, who is also still suspect as a defender. Durant is better (of course, he's played with better players overall, than Melo has), to be sure. Personally, I'd take Durant, Lebron, Rose, Wade and a few others ahead of Melo if I had my choice to start a team. That being said, if I were "stuck" with Melo I wouldn't feel like I was in such bad shape.

[Verga3]

Anyone see this piece by our own former Chronicle writer, Ben Cohen?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577209274190816522.html

[Ping Lin]

Anyone see this piece by our own former Chronicle writer, Ben Cohen?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204136404577209274190816522.html

Rubbish! Jeremy Lin is nothing like Tim Tebow.

...Jeremy actually knows how to pass.

Ping "thank you, I'll be here all week" Lin

[Verga3]

Rubbish! Jeremy Lin is nothing like Tim Tebow.

...Jeremy actually knows how to pass.

Ping "thank you, I'll be here all week" Lin

Well played...I love it! And Jeremy also knows how to win!

[subzero02]

If our guards are depleted and if Lin continues to impress, what do you think about his chances to play for his country in London, and for his coach (D'Antoni)? He seems to be a high-character, team guy. Coach K would no doubt love him. Out of the question?

Absolutely no way he makes the roster... Let's see how he does when Carmelo and Amare return. Two guys who could play huge roles for us in London, Chandler and Melo, are Knicks... Lin will not be joining them. I would put Irving, Curry, Jennings, Ellis, and Lawson ahead of Lin in the race to replace Billups.

[Verga3]

Absolutely no way he makes the roster... Let's see how he does when Carmelo and Amare return. Two guys who could play huge roles for us in London, Chandler and Melo, are Knicks... Lin will not be joining them. I would put Irving, Curry, Jennings, Ellis, and Lawson ahead of Lin in the race to replace Billups.

I'm not as sure. It's a long, winding NBA season. If you are forming an opinion based on today, I can't completely disagree with you (only on a couple of guys you have mentioned). But, my premise is that Jeremy continues to improve and sustains his momentum. And also, that Billups and other selected guards cannot go due to injury, etc. If Lin doesn't keep his mojo going, then we all know that he will not be selected. If he does, having D'Antoni and K evaluating him will work to his benefit, I believe. D'Antoni knows him. K will listen to D'Antoni, as well as form his own strategic thoughts on Lin's potential benefit on the floor and in the lockeroom. K loves character guys and leaders. If the stars align and on a toss ball, Jeremy may have a shot. Don't count him out this early.

[subzero02]

If our guards are depleted and if Lin continues to impress, what do you think about his chances to play for his country in London, and for his coach (D'Antoni)? He seems to be a high-character, team guy. Coach K would no doubt love him. Out of the question?


I'm not as sure. It's a long, winding NBA season. If you are forming an opinion based on today, I can't completely disagree with you (only on a couple of guys you have mentioned). But, my premise is that Jeremy continues to improve and sustains his momentum. And also, that Billups and other selected guards cannot go due to injury, etc. If Lin doesn't keep his mojo going, then we all know that he will not be selected. If he does, having D'Antoni and K evaluating him will work to his benefit, I believe. D'Antoni knows him. K will listen to D'Antoni, as well as form his own strategic thoughts on Lin's potential benefit on the floor and in the lockeroom. K loves character guys and leaders. If the stars align and on a toss ball, Jeremy may have a shot. Don't count him out this early.


If Lin were a standout long range shooter he might have the slimmest of chances to get an invitation as a finalist. A lack of a consistent outside shot = not even a remote outside chance to make the roster

[tommy]

Lin just found that combo when the Knicks were short 3 point guards.

This is the angle to this story that nobody is talking about, and I think it's the most important one.

Lin didn't just find that combo. He's had it all along. The Warriors, the Rockets, and until very recently the Knicks weren't willing to be even a little bit open to the possibility that this kid could be a player. What are these coaching staffs looking at in pre-season, in in-season practices -- what were they looking at when they scouted him in college? If a guy is tearing it up, as I'll bet dollars-to-donuts Lin has been with all 3 of these teams in practice, do the coaches not notice? Do they not care?

If I'm running a team and I have a coaching staff/GM that is so invested in other players we've drafted, signed, traded for, or whatever, that they're not even open to the possibility that one of the bench guys could actually be a better player than the guy starting in front of him -- if they're that blind, that closed off, or whatever you want to call it, then I don't want them working for me.

[DukieInBrasil]

This is the angle to this story that nobody is talking about, and I think it's the most important one.

Lin didn't just find that combo. He's had it all along. The Warriors, the Rockets, and until very recently the Knicks weren't willing to be even a little bit open to the possibility that this kid could be a player. What are these coaching staffs looking at in pre-season, in in-season practices -- what were they looking at when they scouted him in college? If a guy is tearing it up, as I'll bet dollars-to-donuts Lin has been with all 3 of these teams in practice, do the coaches not notice? Do they not care?

If I'm running a team and I have a coaching staff/GM that is so invested in other players we've drafted, signed, traded for, or whatever, that they're not even open to the possibility that one of the bench guys could actually be a better player than the guy starting in front of him -- if they're that blind, that closed off, or whatever you want to call it, then I don't want them working for me.
but they're not color blind. Racism is a nasty and pervasive thing.

[Billy Dat]

This is the angle to this story that nobody is talking about, and I think it's the most important one.

Lin didn't just find that combo. He's had it all along. The Warriors, the Rockets, and until very recently the Knicks weren't willing to be even a little bit open to the possibility that this kid could be a player. What are these coaching staffs looking at in pre-season, in in-season practices -- what were they looking at when they scouted him in college? If a guy is tearing it up, as I'll bet dollars-to-donuts Lin has been with all 3 of these teams in practice, do the coaches not notice? Do they not care?

If I'm running a team and I have a coaching staff/GM that is so invested in other players we've drafted, signed, traded for, or whatever, that they're not even open to the possibility that one of the bench guys could actually be a better player than the guy starting in front of him -- if they're that blind, that closed off, or whatever you want to call it, then I don't want them working for me.

I can't speak to last year, but this year, there was no pre-season and there have been no practices. Lin got the chance because D'Antoni literally had no other options. He also barely got recruited to Harvard - no one wanted this guy. It is really some kind of miracle! But, I also think back to John Starks who was bagging groceries when he got a chance with the Knicks! What about Roy Hobbs?

[Des Esseintes]

I can't speak to last year, but this year, there was no pre-season and there have been no practices. Lin got the chance because D'Antoni literally had no other options. He also barely got recruited to Harvard - no one wanted this guy. It is really some kind of miracle! But, I also think back to John Starks who was bagging groceries when he got a chance with the Knicks! What about Roy Hobbs?

And Boozer was a second round pick. The Curry brothers got scant scholarship attention, despite NBA bloodlines. There are countless examples of the system's inefficiency. In many ways, a player such as Lin is the kind that is *supposed* to be overlooked. Not a high prospect out of high school, not a dominant force in college. There are hundreds of thousands of these guys, and pretty much none of them could make it in the Association, much less star. It wasn't that people were blind as much as it was Lin is a magnificently better player now than he used to be. Could smarter eyes have seen it coming? Perhaps, but I think Carlos dropping to the second round is a greater demonstration of collective fog than Lin's emergence.

[phaedrus]

This is the angle to this story that nobody is talking about, and I think it's the most important one.

Lin didn't just find that combo. He's had it all along. The Warriors, the Rockets, and until very recently the Knicks weren't willing to be even a little bit open to the possibility that this kid could be a player. What are these coaching staffs looking at in pre-season, in in-season practices -- what were they looking at when they scouted him in college? If a guy is tearing it up, as I'll bet dollars-to-donuts Lin has been with all 3 of these teams in practice, do the coaches not notice? Do they not care?

If I'm running a team and I have a coaching staff/GM that is so invested in other players we've drafted, signed, traded for, or whatever, that they're not even open to the possibility that one of the bench guys could actually be a better player than the guy starting in front of him -- if they're that blind, that closed off, or whatever you want to call it, then I don't want them working for me.

I think what this really shows is the circumstantial nature of NBA success for nearly everyone other than the biggest stars. Do you really think an NBA coach, whose multimillion dollar job is on the line, ignores a player in practice who is "tearing it up", who the coach thinks gives the team the best chance to win? Or maybe Lin, like most players, had to find the right combination of opportunity and the right line-up to shine in the right role?

Lin played for multiple teams, played minutes, and wasn't impressive. It's true that he didn't suddenly get better, but it's also true that this wasn't his first opportunity. It's just the first opportunity he's had where he has the freedom to look impressive, plays with the right line-up, and frankly, was probably asked to carry more of the load.

Look at the success Duke players have had. JJ improved a lot after college, but it wasn't until the Magic had a more favorable lineup for him that he got serious minutes. Duhon played spot minutes, then started for the Bulls, and now plays spot minutes again. Shane Battier scored 14.4 ppg as a rookie, and has barely cracked double digits since - not because he's worse, but because his role has been defined differently since then. Or look at Kevin Martin's emergence years ago. Steve Nash.

It's not about talent. Almost every player in the NBA has enough talent that, if they were leaned on heavily in the right circumstances, they could put up big numbers. It's about finding players who play the right role on the right team with the right other players. Lin and the Knicks seem to have found that role, for now. It's an extreme example of a pattern that plays out over and over again in the NBA.

[Billy Dat]

I just listened to Mike D'Antoni be interviewed by WFAN's Mike Francesa. Here were the key points:

-The were intrigued by Lin out of Harvard, had him in for pre-draft workouts, but Golden State drafted him. The Knicks forgot about him.
-For point guard, they had been using a duet of former ACC players who were natural 2s, Toney Douglas and Iman Shumpert, and neither was comfortable in that spot. Mike Bibby was their only other natural PG because Baron Davis was still out injured. The picked Lin up off waivers.
-Lin was signed to a 10 day contract and the end of that contract was coming up which pushed the issue. They tried him against Boston and, although he was ineffectual because he kept fouling, they thought they saw something. The next game was the Nets game where he led them to a win. Afterwards, the coaches sat around like "they'd inhaled helium" - they were giddy and laughing.

It is amazing that the big concern now is whether or not Amare and Melo, who have been injured for this whole run, are going to fit in with Lin. The concern is, especially, Melo because everyone things Amare will be fine because he is used to the D'Antoni system of PG-dominated orchestration.

[subzero02]

I just listened to Mike D'Antoni be interviewed by WFAN's Mike Francesa. Here were the key points:

-The were intrigued by Lin out of Harvard, had him in for pre-draft workouts, but Golden State drafted him. The Knicks forgot about him.
-For point guard, they had been using a duet of former ACC players who were natural 2s, Toney Douglas and Iman Shumpert, and neither was comfortable in that spot. Mike Bibby was their only other natural PG because Baron Davis was still out injured. The picked Lin up off waivers.
-Lin was signed to a 10 day contract and the end of that contract was coming up which pushed the issue. They tried him against Boston and, although he was ineffectual because he kept fouling, they thought they saw something. The next game was the Nets game where he led them to a win. Afterwards, the coaches sat around like "they'd inhaled helium" - they were giddy and laughing.

It is amazing that the big concern now is whether or not Amare and Melo, who have been injured for this whole run, are going to fit in with Lin. The concern is, especially, Melo because everyone things Amare will be fine because he is used to the D'Antoni system of PG-dominated orchestration.

Lin was undrafted in 2010... He was signed by Golden state during summer league play

[ice-9]

And Boozer was a second round pick. The Curry brothers got scant scholarship attention, despite NBA bloodlines. There are countless examples of the system's inefficiency. In many ways, a player such as Lin is the kind that is *supposed* to be overlooked. Not a high prospect out of high school, not a dominant force in college. There are hundreds of thousands of these guys, and pretty much none of them could make it in the Association, much less star.

I was in agreement until this part...


It wasn't that people were blind as much as it was Lin is a magnificently better player now than he used to be. Could smarter eyes have seen it coming? Perhaps, but I think Carlos dropping to the second round is a greater demonstration of collective fog than Lin's emergence.

He was always a pretty good player -- he didn't just magically acquire all these skills and talent overnight.

- In high school, Lin led his team to a 32-1 record and upset Mater Dei and was named Northern California player of the year by nearly every publication. Yet, he failed to get any scholarship offers. You don't think a team like Cal, Stanford or UCLA could have used a Northern California POY?

- At Harvard, Lin was one of the 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award. He also torched U-Conn for 30 points and 9 rebounds. I do get that college success does not necessarily translate to selection to an NBA team but...

- ...he then matched up well against John Wall during a summer league game, scoring 13 points on 6-for-12 shooting in 28 minutes. He killed it every time he was sent to the D-League; e.g. while with the Warriors he averaged 21.5 points, 6.0 rebounds, 5.5 assists and 3.5 steals for the Bighorns. But the Warriors dropped him and the Rockets waived him.

Lin has done well practically EVERY CHANCE he was given to play extended minutes, from high school to college to summer league to the development league...and now, the NBA.

No, he did not magically become good, he was always good, he was just never given the chance to show it.

[Dev11]

I was in agreement until this part...



He was always a pretty good player -- he didn't just magically acquire all these skills and talent overnight.

- In high school, Lin led his team to a 32-1 record and upset Mater Dei and was named Northern California player of the year by nearly every publication. Yet, he failed to get any scholarship offers. You don't think a team like Cal, Stanford or UCLA could have used a Northern California POY?

- At Harvard, Lin was one of the 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award. He also torched U-Conn for 30 points and 9 rebounds. I do get that college success does not necessarily translate to selection to an NBA team but...

- ...he then matched up well against John Wall during a summer league game, scoring 13 points on 6-for-12 shooting in 28 minutes. He killed it every time he was sent to the D-League; e.g. while with the Warriors he averaged 21.5 points, 6.0 rebounds, 5.5 assists and 3.5 steals for the Bighorns. But the Warriors dropped him and the Rockets waived him.

Lin has done well practically EVERY CHANCE he was given to play extended minutes, from high school to college to summer league to the development league...and now, the NBA.

No, he did not magically become good, he was always good, he was just never given the chance to show it.

I'd like to add to this that personally, I bought tickets to Harvard-Georgetown at the Verizon Center Lin's final year, just so I could watch him play. I thought he was the best player on the court, but unfortunately, the next 5 or 6 best were all in gray (and not playing for Duke). Lin looked around a lot for open teammates, but usually the best he could do was drive to the rim and try to make things happen. He was pretty good at that.

I agree, Lin's lack of NBA looks at the end of his senior season were not a result of his lack of performance in college. That said, I hate that something this awesome is happening to the Knicks.

[Li_Duke]

It's ESPN insider, but I like Telep's blog about Lin.
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/dave-telep/post/_/id/927/harvard-was-the-right-choice-for-jeremy-lin

He asked a guy he trusted as a skills evaluator what he would have thought of Lin coming out of HS:
“In your one-line deal you would have said something like low-major plus but not the kind of kid you’d bet against,” Reveno said.

As a freshman at Harvard, Lin played 18 minutes a game and averaged 4.8 points on a team that went 12-16. He improved his sophomore year, but it wasn't until his junior year that he really improved.

“During his junior year he was really good and that’s when Coach Amaker said he could make money playing basketball,” Wade said. “He started getting confidence his junior year. We believed he was better than he thought he was. He didn’t know how good he was.”

He goes on to talk about Steph Curry and whether Curry would have developed as well if he had gone to Virgina Tech and not played as a freshman. How much is experience worth in the development of talent? Both Lin and Curry put on weight in college. They were both frail coming out of HS.

Personally I think race may have had a factor in him being dismissed out of HS and in the NBA - but only so much. If a player is phenomenal, he'll get noticed regardless of his race. The summer league explosion he had resulted in him getting offers from Golden State (and a few other teams). The same was true of Marco Belinelli and Anthony Randolph. All of them sit at the end of benches. Lin got an opportunity, and he seized it.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Good practices doesn't always translate to good game playing. Some players need that adrenaline from playing in games to be effective. On the flip-side, some players are significantly better in practice (see Plumlee, Miles. Coach K has said time and time again that Miles is our best big man in practice).

I believe that Lin must be okay in practice but stellar in game play.

[Des Esseintes]

I was in agreement until this part...



He was always a pretty good player -- he didn't just magically acquire all these skills and talent overnight.

- In high school, Lin led his team to a 32-1 record and upset Mater Dei and was named Northern California player of the year by nearly every publication. Yet, he failed to get any scholarship offers. You don't think a team like Cal, Stanford or UCLA could have used a Northern California POY?

- At Harvard, Lin was one of the 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award. He also torched U-Conn for 30 points and 9 rebounds. I do get that college success does not necessarily translate to selection to an NBA team but...

- ...he then matched up well against John Wall during a summer league game, scoring 13 points on 6-for-12 shooting in 28 minutes. He killed it every time he was sent to the D-League; e.g. while with the Warriors he averaged 21.5 points, 6.0 rebounds, 5.5 assists and 3.5 steals for the Bighorns. But the Warriors dropped him and the Rockets waived him.

Lin has done well practically EVERY CHANCE he was given to play extended minutes, from high school to college to summer league to the development league...and now, the NBA.

No, he did not magically become good, he was always good, he was just never given the chance to show it.

I hear you, but I think it's worth mentioning how many people who don't make it--don't come even close to making it--fit the bill you're describing. The Cousy Award is a perfect example. The other finalists: Sherron Collins, Matt Bouldin, Devan Downey, Kalin Lucas, Trevon Hughes, Ronald Moore, Scottie Reynolds, Jon Scheyer (hooray!), Greivis Vasquez, aaaand John Wall. Wall aside, this list is laden with excellent seniors who've enjoyed great careers and put it all together in the final season. It is not a list of potential lottery picks. I'm not saying Lin didn't have a fine college career. He did. But so did Matt Bouldin, and Kobe *actually* doesn't know who Matt Bouldin is. A dominant career, though? Stephen Curry is the standard for an overlooked player with a dominant college career, and Lin's was nothing like that. The truth of the matter is a college senior coming off a non-NPOY campaign isn't generally considered lottery material. And Jeremy Lin right now looks like a top five pick if they had a 2010 draft do-over. So something has changed, and I think it's logical to believe it's Lin.

Let me put it another way. Was Lin better than Jon Scheyer in college? I say no. I love Scheyer. I want his jersey retired; I thought and continue to think he has a role in the NBA. But does anyone on this board expect Jon Scheyer to do *this* in the NBA?

[tommy]

I was in agreement until this part...



He was always a pretty good player -- he didn't just magically acquire all these skills and talent overnight.

- In high school, Lin led his team to a 32-1 record and upset Mater Dei and was named Northern California player of the year by nearly every publication. Yet, he failed to get any scholarship offers. You don't think a team like Cal, Stanford or UCLA could have used a Northern California POY?

- At Harvard, Lin was one of the 11 finalists for the Bob Cousy Award. He also torched U-Conn for 30 points and 9 rebounds. I do get that college success does not necessarily translate to selection to an NBA team but...

- ...he then matched up well against John Wall during a summer league game, scoring 13 points on 6-for-12 shooting in 28 minutes. He killed it every time he was sent to the D-League; e.g. while with the Warriors he averaged 21.5 points, 6.0 rebounds, 5.5 assists and 3.5 steals for the Bighorns. But the Warriors dropped him and the Rockets waived him.

Lin has done well practically EVERY CHANCE he was given to play extended minutes, from high school to college to summer league to the development league...and now, the NBA.

No, he did not magically become good, he was always good, he was just never given the chance to show it.

Agree with you.

But my question, rhetorical though it may be, is what on earth were Mike D'Antoni and the rest of the staff LOOKING at when they had Lin in pre-season camp (I know it was truncated this year) and what have they been LOOKING at during practices that they did not see this talent? Same can be said of the staffs in Houston and Golden State of course. Why were they unwilling to say, "hey, that kid actually looks pretty good with the ball. I know he's from Harvard and all, but he looks like he could run the screen/roll. Let's give him some reps with Amare and the first teamers just to see how it goes." Why, after seeing him play every single day, weren't they open to the possibility that Lin could be a more effective player than Toney Douglas or Mike Bibby or Shumpert or whoever else they were playing in the backcourt? Lin didn't just get better in the last 2 months since training camp, when they were ready to cut him. The talent was there, but until they had no other choices, the Knicks staff was shut down mentally to the possibility that this kid could be a real player, and there's just no excuse for that in my book.

[Jderf]

Agree with you.

But my question, rhetorical though it may be, is what on earth were Mike D'Antoni and the rest of the staff LOOKING at when they had Lin in pre-season camp (I know it was truncated this year) and what have they been LOOKING at during practices that they did not see this talent? Same can be said of the staffs in Houston and Golden State of course. Why were they unwilling to say, "hey, that kid actually looks pretty good with the ball. I know he's from Harvard and all, but he looks like he could run the screen/roll. Let's give him some reps with Amare and the first teamers just to see how it goes." Why, after seeing him play every single day, weren't they open to the possibility that Lin could be a more effective player than Toney Douglas or Mike Bibby or Shumpert or whoever else they were playing in the backcourt? Lin didn't just get better in the last 2 months since training camp, when they were ready to cut him. The talent was there, but until they had no other choices, the Knicks staff was shut down mentally to the possibility that this kid could be a real player, and there's just no excuse for that in my book.

Our species has shown time and time again that it is really hard for us to spot something that we aren't already looking for*. With something as incredibly subjective as basketball talent, it really doesn't surprise me that people could have categorized Lin's "breakout talent" as simply "above average." Since they weren't looking for a point guard with breakout talent, they didn't realize they had one sitting on their roster. But, when they started looking for it, suddenly Lin's talent appeared "out of nowhere." Typical homo sapiens...



(*Then again, when we are looking for something, we tend to overshoot in the opposite direction, seeing it in places were it isn't actually present.)

[ice-9]

I hear you, but I think it's worth mentioning how many people who don't make it--don't come even close to making it--fit the bill you're describing. The Cousy Award is a perfect example...A dominant career, though? Stephen Curry is the standard for an overlooked player with a dominant college career, and Lin's was nothing like that.

First, Curry was selected seventh overall in the draft. Hardly "overlooked." Even if the 2009 draft had to be redone again, I'm not sure Curry's position would be all that different: Blake Griffin, Ricky Rubio and Brandon Jennings would certainly be above him, and probably Ty Lawson too.

Second, I'm not sure what Lin would have had to do in Harvard to indicate that he had chops all along. He had a fantastic college career. Does a guy need to have a "dominant" college career to show that he always had talent and capabilities?


The truth of the matter is a college senior coming off a non-NPOY campaign isn't generally considered lottery material. And Jeremy Lin right now looks like a top five pick if they had a 2010 draft do-over. So something has changed, and I think it's logical to believe it's Lin.

Let me put it another way. Was Lin better than Jon Scheyer in college? I say no. I love Scheyer. I want his jersey retired; I thought and continue to think he has a role in the NBA. But does anyone on this board expect Jon Scheyer to do *this* in the NBA?

Let's go further along with your logic. Just when did Jeremy Lin all of a sudden become good? When the Knicks almost cut him? When he was waived by Houston? Or when he was dropped by Golden State? At what point did he go through this dramatic transformation? It must have been days, minutes before the Knicks decided to play him against the Nets, because they certainly didn't know prior to it.

I think it's illogical to think he improved that dramatically. If he did, people would have noticed, and it wouldn't have required a "last resort" scenario to prove it. A coach would have remarked to himself, "Wow this Jeremy Lin guy has improved a LOT. Time to give him real minutes." Yet we know that was not what had transpired. No, more likely, it was because he was continually overlooked.

[MCFinARL]

but they're not color blind. Racism is a nasty and pervasive thing.




Personally I think race may have had a factor in him being dismissed out of HS and in the NBA - but only so much. If a player is phenomenal, he'll get noticed regardless of his race.

It's easy--and dangerous--to start talking about racism in a situation like this, dangerous particularly because it suggests something very intentional. If race did play a role here, I suspect it was unconscious. What people see is influenced by their expectations, and people who have to make a lot of decisions about personnel may fall back on some expectations and snap judgments to save time. In Blink Malcolm Gladwell tells a story about a woman who was selected to play trombone in a European symphony orchestra in a blind audition. The judges knew right away that she was the musician they wanted, but were astonished when she came out from behind the screen. Not only was she a woman--not thought to have the lung power to be top trombonists--but she was a musician they knew and had always assumed to be an adequate but not special musician.

Even when we want to get beyond stereotypes, it can be difficult. I agree that a player who is phenomenal is likely to get noticed, but if he misses some opportunities to get noticed because coaches and scouts unwittingly screen him out without realizing why, his path might be a little longer than some other folks'. At the same time, I think it's pretty unlikely that conscious racism was ever in play here.

[ice-9]

Note I'm not necessarily saying it's all about race, though I do think that plays a part (probably unconsciously). There may be dozens of other players with star talent in the NBA who haven't been given the opportunity -- the right coach, the right system, the right team -- to showcase his true capabilities because of this or that reason.

I'm not a baseball guy but it's like that guy with a weird pitch in Moneyball: sometimes a player's appearance can blind you to his capabilities.

[duke09hms]

Jeremy Lin has said somewhere that in all the draft workouts he went to, the teams had him playing 2v2 and 3v3, and that was something he really wasn't good at, all the while excelling at 5v5, which is probably why he went undrafted.

If true, I think it's extremely likely this happened to Scheyer as well. Jon could probably manage the game as well as Jeremy but is slightly less athletic. Definitely a type to stand out more in 5v5 than 2v2/3v3.

[Duvall]

It's easy--and dangerous--to start talking about racism in a situation like this, dangerous particularly because it suggests something very intentional. If race did play a role here, I suspect it was unconscious. What people see is influenced by their expectations, and people who have to make a lot of decisions about personnel may fall back on some expectations and snap judgments to save time. In Blink Malcolm Gladwell tells a story about a woman who was selected to play trombone in a European symphony orchestra in a blind audition. The judges knew right away that she was the musician they wanted, but were astonished when she came out from behind the screen. Not only was she a woman--not thought to have the lung power to be top trombonists--but she was a musician they knew and had always assumed to be an adequate but not special musician.

Even when we want to get beyond stereotypes, it can be difficult. I agree that a player who is phenomenal is likely to get noticed, but if he misses some opportunities to get noticed because coaches and scouts unwittingly screen him out without realizing why, his path might be a little longer than some other folks'. At the same time, I think it's pretty unlikely that conscious racism was ever in play here.

Does that matter, though? The kind of unconscious discrimination you describe here seems fairly destructive in its own right.

[DukieInBrasil]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe JL just DID that! Knicks down 5 with 2 minutes to play, JL had 19 pts. JL finished with 27pts (and 11 asts) and the NY won by 3. KID CAN PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dukelifer]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't believe JL just DID that! Knicks down 5 with 2 minutes to play, JL had 19 pts. JL finished with 27pts (and 11 asts) and the NY won by 3. KID CAN PLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just amazing. Trailing the whole game and he hits the three to win it. Just an unbelievable run so far for this kid. Basketball is such a great game.

[mr. synellinden]

Jeremy Lin just went all Austin Rivers on the Raptors.

[JNort]

He had a great game but his defense at least in the first was beyond bad and he turned it over way to much early on.

[Billy Dat]

I can't believe what I just watched. While the real turning point was Shumpert shutting down Calederon (who was killing the Knicks), Lin still put up 27 pts and 11 assists. This is too special to nitpick the turnovers and defense...we're talking about, essentially, a walk-on starting his 5th NBA game...of course he's going to have turnovers and play some bad D. Aside from the game winning 3, had had the game tying drive+1 on the play before. Holy cow, man, it keeps getting better.

[mr. synellinden]

He had a great game but his defense at least in the first was beyond bad and he turned it over way to much early on.

And he acknowledged that following the game - saying his teammates bailed him out and taking responsibility for getting shredded in defense. Pretty remarkable to hear from an NBA player.

[Verga3]

And he acknowledged that following the game - saying his teammates bailed him out and taking responsibility for getting shredded in defense. Pretty remarkable to hear from an NBA player.

Very remarkable. This guy is refreshing and REALLY good. The best is probably yet to come for Jeremy. Hard not to root for him. David Stern is very happy.

[darthur]

Second, I'm not sure what Lin would have had to do in Harvard to indicate that he had chops all along. He had a fantastic college career. Does a guy need to have a "dominant" college career to show that he always had talent and capabilities?

Right, and how many Harvard players have played in the NBA before Lin? Don't take this the wrong way, but the perfect hindsight on this board is silly.

Here are Jeremy Lin's shooting percentages in his first three months at Golden State, during which he played 17 games:

- 20%
- 36%
- 20%

He did not once shoot over 50% and he scored over 3 points only twice. His college career consisted of being the best player on a good (but only by Ivy League standards) team. People did see promise in him, which is why NBA teams kept taking him, but when you're a point guard with middling defense, a turnover problem, and a poor shooting percentage in NBA games, you are not going to get much time until you can improve what you do with the time you have... or until someone gets desperate. Remember: NBA teams play about three times as many games as college teams. They do not rely on practices to decide who plays - they rely on games, and Jeremy Lin simply did not show he could be this player last year.

Anyway, it's awesome to watch. People should sit back and enjoy the show, not point fingers. There was a fat lot of nobody saying Lin could be this player even two weeks ago.

[JNort]

And he acknowledged that following the game - saying his teammates bailed him out and taking responsibility for getting shredded in defense. Pretty remarkable to hear from an NBA player.

I love all his interviews! Every time he answers questions he always gives credit to his teammates or includes them with his success.


Very remarkable. This guy is refreshing and REALLY good. The best is probably yet to come for Jeremy. Hard not to root for him. David Stern is very happy.

David Stern =:D:cool::D:cool:

[ice-9]

Here are Jeremy Lin's shooting percentages in his first three months at Golden State, during which he played 17 games:
- 20%
- 36%
- 20%

I don't know where you got those stats but according to ESPN Jeremy Lin shot 39% while at Golden State in less than 10 minutes per game in games he actually played.


He did not once shoot over 50% and he scored over 3 points only twice.

He shot 50% against Denver for 2 points in 14 minutes of play, 80% against Houston for 8 points in 13 minutes, 67% against New Orleans for 4 points in 9 minutes, 67% against Utah for five points in 9 minutes, 80% against Memphis for 8 points in 17 minutes, 100% against Dallas for 4 points in 7 minutes, 63% against Portland for 12 points in 24 minutes. When he wasn't DNP on the Warrior's bench.


His college career consisted of being the best player on a good (but only by Ivy League standards) team. People did see promise in him, which is why NBA teams kept taking him, but when you're a point guard with middling defense, a turnover problem, and a poor shooting percentage in NBA games, you are not going to get much time until you can improve what you do with the time you have... or until someone gets desperate.

Or you give the guy real minutes and a real opportunity run the team. Every time he had that -- high school, college, summer league, development league -- he showed that he can play. He was never given that in the NBA until the Nets game with the Knicks.


Remember: NBA teams play about three times as many games as college teams. They do not rely on practices to decide who plays - they rely on games, and Jeremy Lin simply did not show he could be this player last year.

Anyway, it's awesome to watch. People should sit back and enjoy the show, not point fingers. There was a fat lot of nobody saying Lin could be this player even two weeks ago.

Who's pointing fingers? The argument presented was that Jeremy Lin wasn't overlooked, he simply was never that good. I'm challenging that argument, not assigning blame. He was always pretty good, just never given the opportunity in the NBA to really showcase what he can do.

Didn't we all feel that too about Redick for the longest time?

[darthur]

I don't know where you got those stats but according to ESPN Jeremy Lin shot 39% while at Golden State in less than 10 minutes per game in games he actually played.

First three months, which is when he was giving out first impressions. He actually had to improve to reach 39% on the year. You're right about him shooting 50% in a couple games though - not sure where I got that.


Or you give the guy real minutes and a real opportunity run the team. Every time he had that -- high school, college, summer league, development league -- he showed that he can play. He was never given that in the NBA until the Nets game with the Knicks.

But that's just not the deal. Unless you are expected to be a franchise player, you get a chance to *lead* an NBA team only after you prove you can be a good support player on an NBA team, which Jeremy Lin got ample opportunity to do before this. There are a zillion people who have been leaders at every level of play up until the NBA, and most of them can never reproduce it in the NBA. It's just the way it is, and it has nothing to do with marketing.


Didn't we all feel that too about Redick for the longest time?

Yes, like we all feel about every Duke player in the NBA! JJ, like almost all young players in the NBA, earned his expanded role by first succeeding in limited minutes.

[ice-9]

But that's just not the deal. Unless you are expected to be a franchise player, you get a chance to *lead* an NBA team only after you prove you can be a good support player on an NBA team, which Jeremy Lin got ample opportunity to do before this. There are a zillion people who have been leaders at every level of play up until the NBA, and most of them can never reproduce it in the NBA. It's just the way it is, and it has nothing to do with marketing.

Well, then the "deal" is an inefficient method of surfacing talented players if there was a player as good as Jeremy Lin who was dropped by two teams and nearly waived by a third. Who knows who else is out there like Lin, versus players on fat contracts who really should be sitting instead of playing.

Seems like there's room for improvement.

[rotogod00]

Well, then the "deal" is an inefficient method of surfacing talented players if there was a player as good as Jeremy Lin who was dropped by two teams and nearly waived by a third. Who knows who else is out there like Lin, versus players on fat contracts who really should be sitting instead of playing.

Seems like there's room for improvement.

Apparently the Knicks were considering releasing him last month too, to pick up ......(wait for it) ....... Mike James

[Doug.I.Am]

Heard on local radio today that he just broke the record for most points scored in the first 5 games of a career. Can anyone substantiate this? Never ever seen anything like this in the NBA.

[sagegrouse]

Heard on local radio today that he just broke the record for most points scored in the first 5 games of a career. Can anyone substantiate this? Never ever seen anything like this in the NBA.

How about 43-36-41-30-32? Average -- 36.4. Those were Wilt's stats his first five games with the Philadelphia Warriors in 1959.

Moreover, these are Lin's first five "starts," not first five games.

sagegrouse

[Doug.I.Am]

How about 43-36-41-30-32? Average -- 36.4. Those were Wilt's stats his first five games with the Philadelphia Warriors in 1959.

Moreover, these are Lin's first five "starts," not first five games.

sagegrouse

My bad, Sage. I meant to say starter. It appears he broke Shaq's record for most points in his first 5 starts since the ABA/NBA merger in 1976. Not bad for an undrafted kid from Harvard.

[darthur]

Well, then the "deal" is an inefficient method of surfacing talented players if there was a player as good as Jeremy Lin who was dropped by two teams and nearly waived by a third. Who knows who else is out there like Lin, versus players on fat contracts who really should be sitting instead of playing.

Seems like there's room for improvement.

The whole point is something like this has simply never happened before. Yes, sometimes a player gets an expanded role and proves a little better than expected, but Jeremy Lin has been something else entirely. Sometimes you need to forget about generalizations and just enjoy a single story for the amazingness it is.

[sagegrouse]

The Jeremy Lin phenomenom has four components, all (more or less) equally important:

1. New York #1: "The unknown understudy becomes the star and conquers Broadway." This is a really great story, no matter who it involves. A guy not drafted and cut twice starts setting records. And, especially in combination with ....

2. New York #2: "This is New York. Anything that happens here is important to the whole world. Let me repeat. Anything that happens here...." Boston and LA are close but not the same.

3. Harvard: "Harvard, really? He played at Hah-vuhd?" I mean, no sports fan ever heard of Harvard basketball. Princeton or Penn, maybe, but Harvard?

4. Ethnic Chinese: "When was the last Chinese-American who became a star in the NBA?"

The last is getting all the play (wouldn't you like to be his agent for Taiwan and China?), but I don't think it would mean nearly as much if Lin had been a really good player at a strong program in the Big Ten or PAC-10, or if it were happening with the T-Wolves, or if he had come up from Directional State instead of through the Ivy League.

sagegrouse

[Des Esseintes]

First, Curry was selected seventh overall in the draft. Hardly "overlooked." Even if the 2009 draft had to be redone again, I'm not sure Curry's position would be all that different: Blake Griffin, Ricky Rubio and Brandon Jennings would certainly be above him, and probably Ty Lawson too.

Second, I'm not sure what Lin would have had to do in Harvard to indicate that he had chops all along. He had a fantastic college career. Does a guy need to have a "dominant" college career to show that he always had talent and capabilities?

Let's go further along with your logic. Just when did Jeremy Lin all of a sudden become good? When the Knicks almost cut him? When he was waived by Houston? Or when he was dropped by Golden State? At what point did he go through this dramatic transformation? It must have been days, minutes before the Knicks decided to play him against the Nets, because they certainly didn't know prior to it.

I think it's illogical to think he improved that dramatically. If he did, people would have noticed, and it wouldn't have required a "last resort" scenario to prove it. A coach would have remarked to himself, "Wow this Jeremy Lin guy has improved a LOT. Time to give him real minutes." Yet we know that was not what had transpired. No, more likely, it was because he was continually overlooked.

You misunderstood my Curry example, which is probably on me because the wording is unclear. What I meant was that Curry and Lin were both lightly regarded coming out of high school, hence Davidson and Harvard. But then Curry almost immediately and for the duration of his college career demonstrated elite talent. *That's* what an out-of-nowhere player suddenly showing major NBA game looks like at the college level. Not Lin, who was a fine player for Harvard but hardly one who carried his team on multiple deep NCAA runs. And what happened for Curry in the wake of these excellent seasons? Lottery pick.

Lin wasn't this good in college. He got better after graduation. I don't think you have to be snide and perform a reduction ad absurdum with what seems a straightforward proposition. When did he get better? I have no idea. Maybe he could have done something like these past six games while with Golden State last year, and maybe he couldn't. But I feel safe saying that was not the guy people saw play in Ivy League games for four years. Curry was a national sensation; Lin, as we are seeing right now, would have been a national sensation. Here is a guy who has obviously transformed himself in the past two years, and it takes nothing away from his ability--it only indicates his drive and work-ethic--to acknowledge that spectacular growth.

[ice-9]

The whole point is something like this has simply never happened before. Yes, sometimes a player gets an expanded role and proves a little better than expected, but Jeremy Lin has been something else entirely. Sometimes you need to forget about generalizations and just enjoy a single story for the amazingness it is.

Believe me, I am enjoying it, but your dismissive post about Lin as a player in the past (presented with inaccurate facts no less) merited a response. Your unsolicited advice to "forget about generalizations and just enjoy" and "not point fingers" probably didn't help either.




Lin wasn't this good in college. He got better after graduation.

I think you can say that of pretty much any player. Players do tend get better over time!


I don't think you have to be snide and perform a reduction ad absurdum with what seems a straightforward proposition. When did he get better? I have no idea. Maybe he could have done something like these past six games while with Golden State last year, and maybe he couldn't. But I feel safe saying that was not the guy people saw play in Ivy League games for four years. Curry was a national sensation; Lin, as we are seeing right now, would have been a national sensation. Here is a guy who has obviously transformed himself in the past two years, and it takes nothing away from his ability--it only indicates his drive and work-ethic--to acknowledge that spectacular growth.

I apologize for my snide tone, but I just don't see how you can come to the conclusion that you did. Of course the guy improved, but does that improvement explain why he was never given an opportunity?

Here are the theories I've heard that make sense to me...

- Lin is good because he makes good decisions directing a team. This is somewhat harder to see in practices; difficult to notice in limited, sporadic minutes in real games; and impossible in 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 drills that are the norm in workouts

- Lin rises to the occasion; the kind of player that shines in games and dulls in practices

- He needed the right system, the right coach

- Players on contract get priority over those who can be cut, and Lin always had such players in front of him whether at Golden State, Houston or New York

- People see an Asian guy who's not particularly athletic, not particularly tall, little loopy shot, and quickly dismiss him as unworthy without taking the time to understand his game

Any or a combination of the above make more sense to me then the proposition that he was a lousy player who blossomed sometime between when a team last evaluated him and judged him insufficient to the time he destroyed the Nets.

There was a line from an ESPN article (http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7574087/overlooking-jeremy-lin) related to this topic that I like: "Players this good don't just become. They are."

[Des Esseintes]

I apologize for my snide tone, but I just don't see how you can come to the conclusion that you did. Of course the guy improved, but does that improvement explain why he was never given an opportunity?

Here are the theories I've heard that make sense to me...

- Lin is good because he makes good decisions directing a team. This is somewhat harder to see in practices; difficult to notice in limited, sporadic minutes in real games; and impossible in 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 drills that are the norm in workouts

- Lin rises to the occasion; the kind of player that shines in games and dulls in practices

- He needed the right system, the right coach

- Players on contract get priority over those who can be cut, and Lin always had such players in front of him whether at Golden State, Houston or New York

- People see an Asian guy who's not particularly athletic, not particularly tall, little loopy shot, and quickly dismiss him as unworthy without taking the time to understand his game

Any or a combination of the above make more sense to me then the proposition that he was a lousy player who blossomed sometime between when a team last evaluated him and judged him insufficient to the time he destroyed the Nets.

There was a line from an ESPN article (http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/7574087/overlooking-jeremy-lin) related to this topic that I like: "Players this good don't just become. They are."

But what about Lin getting the same exact chance as, say, Scottie Reynolds or Jon Scheyer? Because those were guys with similar, if not more distinguished, college careers than Lin. They barely sniffed an NBA bench. There are a huge number of guys like them, and until recently Lin was among their number. Four-year college guards do not tend to make great lottery choices. For every exception there are a hundred that prove the rule. Like everyone with a pulse, I love what Lin is doing. I don't think it indicates a need for team's to fundamentally alter how they search for talent.

For myself, I think Lin wasn't sought out for precisely the reason that nothing about his game--good pick & roll guy, shaky defense, shaky outside shot--suggested he could be a star at the next level *while he was in college.* The things that foretell NBA excellence both in statistical production and in the scout's eye, he just didn't have at Harvard. And that was the overwhelming data to be looked at when a team considered picking him up.

It's of course true as you say that players improve over time. However, the number of players who undergo a complete revolution in their game at Lin's age--and 23 is actually quite late to demonstrate NBA worthiness--is vanishingly small. It's why Wesley Johnson looks like a bust in only his second year while Mike Conley was given plenty of rope. The earlier you demonstrate a skill set, the better chance you have to make it. Lin's case is special. It just is.

[UrinalCake]

A topic that I don't think has been discussed in this thread is Lin's impact on the NBA's overseas markets. Since Yao's retirement I would imagine the NBA took a major hit in viewership in China and perhaps other Asian countries. Now Lin gives them another star to promote. There are literally billions of dollars at stake if Lin can keep it going as an established upper-level player.

As a side note, the other Asian players I can think of are Yao, Wang Zhi-zhi (probably misspelled that, played for Dallas for a season or two), and Yi Jianlan (again, sorry for the misspelling). But as others have noted, those guys were all international players and I don't think they were American citizens.

[-jk]

A topic that I don't think has been discussed in this thread is Lin's impact on the NBA's overseas markets. Since Yao's retirement I would imagine the NBA took a major hit in viewership in China and perhaps other Asian countries. Now Lin gives them another star to promote. There are literally billions of dollars at stake if Lin can keep it going as an established upper-level player.

And presumably he'd get to keep the money.

-jk

[hq2]

For myself, I think Lin wasn't sought out for precisely the reason that nothing about his game--good pick & roll guy, shaky defense, shaky outside shot--suggested he could be a star at the next level *while he was in college.* The things that foretell NBA excellence both in statistical production and in the scout's eye, he just didn't have at Harvard. And that was the overwhelming data to be looked at when a team considered picking him up.

Yes, but there are intangibles that are hard to measure, including work ethic, drive to win, and ability to score in the clutch. Larry Bird didn't have great physical ability either (although he had incredible hand-eye coordination) but his intangibles were off the charts. Pro scouts have a hard time measuring these sorts of things. And, apparently, Jeremy has them in abundance (which he also had in college). It was just that the pros hadn't given him a chance to show them.

Also agree with another poster that four year college guards these days rarely do that well in the pros; if they were really pro level, they would have left earlier.

[mike88]

It is pretty well documented that people (not just NBA scouts, but everyone) tend to evaluate performance based on pre-conceived expectations. Some of it comes from cognitive bias and some from the difficulty in going against the status quo. These type of errors get propagated (wins state championship in high school, but only gets recruited to Harvard; plays great at Harvard, but doesn't get drafted; makes NBA team, but rides the bench) until (at least in this case) an opportunity arises to let the "true signal" overcome the noise/error (whereas the lottery pick will keep getting opportunities even when he fails multiple times) . But what Lin is doing is off the charts so far - pretty amazing. I bet it is giving NBA GMs/scouts some second thoughts about whether to take more "risks" in their drafting / signing of players rather than relying on the status quo.

[g-money]

Jeremy Lin just went all Austin Rivers on the Raptors.

A very similar thought went through my head when I saw Lin's shot: He got the idea for that play from Austin!

I just hope the concept of a guard jacking up, errr shooting a three at the end of close games (i.e. <3 pt differential) doesn't become a trend. It worked beautifully for Duke and the Knicks, but sooner than later the percentages will catch up.

Anyway, a bit of a tangent to this thread celebrating Jeremy Lin's ascendancy. Any way you slice it, it has been fun to watch.

[MartyClark]

Bomani Jones, on television with Doug Gottlieb and other alleged experts, just graded Lin at a "B-" thus far. Go figure.

[johnb]

Good practices doesn't always translate to good game playing. Some players need that adrenaline from playing in games to be effective. On the flip-side, some players are significantly better in practice (see Plumlee, Miles. Coach K has said time and time again that Miles is our best big man in practice).

I believe that Lin must be okay in practice but stellar in game play.


People here in New York are genuinely excited about Lin, and the newspapers are working overtime to come up with headlines that are Linspirational. Having said that, his defense and turnovers aren't ideal, and it's a long season.

But that's not why I'm typing. Instead, I'm thinking, "why isn't Miles a star?" He's been said to be the best practicing big man and the best athlete and jumper on the team. He looks tough. He plays hard. I'm kinda hoping it's because his mojo gets worn down by the many touch fouls that are called on him. Makes him tentative. Diminishes his ability to move and shoot and play defense. At the next level, he won't be the most athletic or the toughest, but those fouls won't get called, and I can see him making a team and even contributing. And if Jeremy can do it...

[gep]

Yes, but there are intangibles that are hard to measure, including work ethic, drive to win, and ability to score in the clutch. Larry Bird didn't have great physical ability either (although he had incredible hand-eye coordination) but his intangibles were off the charts. Pro scouts have a hard time measuring these sorts of things. And, apparently, Jeremy has them in abundance (which he also had in college). It was just that the pros hadn't given him a chance to show them.


Well, Red Auerbach apparently saw these things... enough so, that he picked Bird as a junior with the 6th pick but retained his rights for one year, knowing that Bird was going to complete his senior year in college before going to the NBA. I wonder what Red would have said about Jeremy Lin... :confused:

[Billy Dat]

People here in New York are genuinely excited about Lin, and the newspapers are working overtime to come up with headlines that are Linspirational. Having said that, his defense and turnovers aren't ideal, and it's a long season.

But that's not why I'm typing. Instead, I'm thinking, "why isn't Miles a star?" He's been said to be the best practicing big man and the best athlete and jumper on the team. He looks tough. He plays hard. I'm kinda hoping it's because his mojo gets worn down by the many touch fouls that are called on him. Makes him tentative. Diminishes his ability to move and shoot and play defense. At the next level, he won't be the most athletic or the toughest, but those fouls won't get called, and I can see him making a team and even contributing. And if Jeremy can do it...

Miles has an NBA body and NBA athleticism in terms of jumping and ability to run the floor. I'm not as sold on his quickness or hands, but I can't imagine that someone won't invite him to Summer League based on his positives. From there, he'll need to do really well and get lucky.

[SupaDave]

Just wow...

ESPN just stated that they have run out of not only Lin merchandise in China but even all of the BOOTLEG Lin merchandise available in China (which is ya know, like next to impossible in China). DBR has always been high on him but this is impressive.

[UrinalCake]

ESPN just stated that they have run out of not only Lin merchandise in China but even all of the BOOTLEG Lin merchandise available in China (which is ya know, like next to impossible in China).

Well to be fair, the shelves probably weren't stocked with piles of the stuff to begin with. Obviously that will change.

[cato]

For myself, I think Lin wasn't sought out for precisely the reason that nothing about his game--good pick & roll guy, shaky defense, shaky outside shot--suggested he could be a star at the next level *while he was in college.* The things that foretell NBA excellence both in statistical production and in the scout's eye, he just didn't have at Harvard.

I suppose people have seen this by now, but in 2010 an amateur stats-head looked at exactly those things, and concluded that (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577225562995441868.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories), if Lin could improve on his passing and leadership at the point, he "is a good enough player to start in the NBA and possibly star." So, apparently the statistical profile was there, but most people just missed it. Or maybe the scouts eye (and how difficult it is to break into an NBA rotation) were more determinative.

[Duke Mom]

Jeremy Lin is the most exciting thing to happen to the Knicks since.....(you fill in the blank) and - I am one of 2.5 million New Yorkers unable to watch the games on television. Time Warner Cable is in a dispute with MSG - and has blacked the station out. How frustrating is that!

[Des Esseintes]

I suppose people have seen this by now, but in 2010 an amateur stats-head looked at exactly those things, and concluded that (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204880404577225562995441868.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories), if Lin could improve on his passing and leadership at the point, he "is a good enough player to start in the NBA and possibly star." So, apparently the statistical profile was there, but most people just missed it. Or maybe the scouts eye (and how difficult it is to break into an NBA rotation) were more determinative.

That's super-interesting, and thanks for that link. It speaks to the continuing value advanced stats can have in improving how teams are run. It's one thing to predict success for somebody such as Paul Milsap, who led the NCAA in rebounding at a low-profile. Another thing entirely to pinpoint a talent such as Lin, whose traditional line was admirable if not astounding. Especially odd, then, that the Rockets let him go. Morey is generally regarded as the most statistics-progressive GM in the NBA. Theo Epstein has had his missteps, too, of course.

[Li_Duke]

That's super-interesting, and thanks for that link. It speaks to the continuing value advanced stats can have in improving how teams are run. It's one thing to predict success for somebody such as Paul Milsap, who led the NCAA in rebounding at a low-profile. Another thing entirely to pinpoint a talent such as Lin, whose traditional line was admirable if not astounding. Especially odd, then, that the Rockets let him go. Morey is generally regarded as the most statistics-progressive GM in the NBA. Theo Epstein has had his missteps, too, of course.

Morey did have 3 other PGs on the roster. I'm wondering how the advanced stats would have described Dragic and Flynn.

[Des Esseintes]

Morey did have 3 other PGs on the roster. I'm wondering how the advanced stats would have described Dragic and Flynn.

Maybe he thought Lin could play some 2? Anyway, it's a good question about the others. I've liked Dragic's game, at least when he was with Phoenix, and thought that selling on Aaron Brooks was a smart move. (I admit that a solid portion of my goodwill for Dragic sprang from his feud with MACHINE, who I hope we all agree was the most despicable cog of those great recent Laker teams.) Flynn seemed like a David Kahn mistake from jump.

[JasonEvans]

I thought folks might enjoy this takedown (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2012/2/17/2804593/the-worst-column-written-about-sports-ever-published) of a column written by the NYTimes David Brooks about Lin. The author says Brooks' column is the worst column about sports ever written.

--Jason "Brooks asserts Lin is different from other sports heroes because... wait for it... Lin is religious" Evans

[MCFinARL]

Does that matter, though? The kind of unconscious discrimination you describe here seems fairly destructive in its own right.

Late getting back to this thread--you raise a good question that I wanted to answer. In one sense, of course, and probably the most important sense, you are right--it doesn't matter at all, because the effects are essentially the same. In another sense, though, it matters, because of the way we view and judge people who consciously practice discrimination as compared to those who make decisions that are unconsciously influenced by racial or other stereotypes. Once we are using words like "racism" and "nasty," as the poster I was responding to did, we run the risk of making people angry and defensive and ending the opportunities for dialogue and/or learning experiences that can break down unconscious attitudes.

But now I'm just starting to sound like an after school special, so I think I will get off my soap box. :o

[Ping Lin]

Well, now that Linsanity is going to wane a little bit after the Knicks sustained their first loss of the season with Lin starting, I thought I'd add this puzzling coda:

Kim Kardashian supposedly interested in Jeremy Lin. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1068668-kim-kardashian-rumored-to-be-interested-in-jeremy-lin)

If Jeremy actually dates that human-shaped vacuole, I'm going to demand physical proof of his Harvard diploma, Birther-style.

[sagegrouse]

So, once the Knicks lost the game with Sir Jeremy in the saddle, what do you think the ESPN on-line site used as a headline? Surely not, "Chink in the Armor," you would say. No! That's what ESPN used. Here's the story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46447076).

As I key this in, the Knicks are leading the Mavs in the last minute by five.

sagegrouse

[Ping Lin]

So, once the Knicks lost the game with Sir Jeremy in the saddle, what do you think the ESPN on-line site used as a headline? Surely not, "Chink in the Armor," you would say. No! That's what ESPN used. Here's the story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46447076).

As I key this in, the Knicks are leading the Mavs in the last minute by five.

sagegrouse

And just like that (http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/daily-take/201202/espn-fires-lin-headline-writer), someone's out of a job. Unusual speed and sensitivity shown by ESPN there...

And what the heck, on the heels of the Knicks' impressive win against Dallas:

Updated:

Jeremy Lin is the only player since the NBA/ABA merger to register at least 6 turnovers in 6 straight games.

Ping "oh well, nobody's perfect" Lin

[Verga3]

And just like that (http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/daily-take/201202/espn-fires-lin-headline-writer), someone's out of a job. Unusual speed and sensitivity shown by ESPN there...

And what the heck, on the heels of the Knicks' impressive win against Dallas:

Updated:

Jeremy Lin is the only player since the NBA/ABA merger to register at least 6 turnovers in 6 straight games.

Ping "oh well, nobody's perfect" Lin

Pretty typical stuff from the "hip" and "edgy" staff at ESPN. Internally, it's really competitive there. How far the envelope can be pushed is a part of the culture. Disgraceful that the final ESPN authority didn't quash this (incidently, today they still have a job) before it was published...the headline writer took the bullet. How predictable. Even worse is that it took initial public outcry and a day and a half for ESPN to say something. What a tepid response from ESPN. They are crossing their fingers that this will just go away. Business as usual.

[elvis14]

I got a chance to watch the Knicks play today agains the Mavs. Lin scored 28, had a bunch of assists and a bunch of turn overs. Outside of the stats, however, I just really like the way Lin managed the game. It had a good flow to it. His passes had good timing and were delivered in good places. He has a bit of flair to this game (something that feeds into the Linsanity). In interviews he is well spoken, constantly gives credit to his teammates. Credited the Mavs for making him adjust by double teaming him off the pick and roll.

Highlights are nice but it was cool to see a whole game and see what Super Lintendo is really about. Hope I get to see him play again soon and I hope he can keep it up. With Carmelo coming back and JR Smith joining the roster, the Knicks could do some damage.

[JayBean]

Highlights are nice but it was cool to see a whole game and see what Super Lintendo is really about. Hope I get to see him play again soon and I hope he can keep it up. With Carmelo coming back and JR Smith joining the roster, the Knicks could do some damage.

I watched the game today and came away impressed as well. His turnovers will probably come done, especially when he has Carmelo out there.

If the Knicks can get everyone on the same page, I would really enjoy a Heat-Knicks series. May not happen, but man it would be fun to see.

[JNort]

I watched the game today and came away impressed as well. His turnovers will probably come done, especially when he has Carmelo out there.

If the Knicks can get everyone on the same page, I would really enjoy a Heat-Knicks series. May not happen, but man it would be fun to see.

Wow can you imagine a game 7? Those rating would be off the charts.

[uh_no]

many many new york fans have been waiting for the knicks to be relevent for a long long time

[brevity]

So, once the Knicks lost the game with Sir Jeremy in the saddle, what do you think the ESPN on-line site used as a headline? Surely not, "Chink in the Armor," you would say. No! That's what ESPN used. Here's the story (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46447076).

It's nice of Jeremy Lin to assume that its use was unintentional, but I call foul.

I cannot think of a single reason why the phrase "chink in the armor" would come up naturally and accidentally in this situation. Did anyone use this phrase when Kentucky, Syracuse, or Murray State lost its first game? It's deliberate wordplay, which would be fine if it weren't also offensive.


The Jeremy Lin phenomenom has four components, all (more or less) equally important:

1. New York #1: "The unknown understudy becomes the star and conquers Broadway." This is a really great story, no matter who it involves. A guy not drafted and cut twice starts setting records. And, especially in combination with ....

2. New York #2: "This is New York. Anything that happens here is important to the whole world. Let me repeat. Anything that happens here...." Boston and LA are close but not the same.

3. Harvard: "Harvard, really? He played at Hah-vuhd?" I mean, no sports fan ever heard of Harvard basketball. Princeton or Penn, maybe, but Harvard?

4. Ethnic Chinese: "When was the last Chinese-American who became a star in the NBA?"

You left off the most important component, but so did everyone else. The one thing I've heard no one say about this story is this: Jeremy Lin would not be nearly as big a story if the NFL season were still going on. If this were a master plan by an all-knowing newsmaker or PR handler, you'd want to start generating the buzz just as soon as the New York media ran out of things to say about the Giants.

The skeptic in me wants to push forward the "Mike D'Antoni is an evil genius" theory, but that would mean that he canned the first month or so of the season on purpose.

(The big loser in all this? College basketball, which normally enjoys some of the attention during the post-Super Bowl hangover. But not this year. A lot of people have been too busy with Jeremy Lin to even think about hating Duke.)

[Reilly]

The Jeremy Lin phenomenom has four components ...

2. New York #2: "This is New York. Anything that happens here is important to the whole world. Let me repeat. Anything that happens here...." ...

NY is 8-2 in its last 10 games. Miami is 9-1. San Antonio is 10-0. 10-0!

[Ping Lin]

NY is 8-2 in its last 10 games. Miami is 9-1. San Antonio is 10-0. 10-0!


That San Antonio stat would be far more impressive without the whole Chris Paul thing.

Ping "here, have some OT, it's on me" Lin

[darthur]

A lot of people have been too busy with Jeremy Lin to even think about hating Duke.

Psht, that's just because there's nothing to hate!

[ice-9]

But what about Lin getting the same exact chance as, say, Scottie Reynolds or Jon Scheyer? Because those were guys with similar, if not more distinguished, college careers than Lin. They barely sniffed an NBA bench. There are a huge number of guys like them, and until recently Lin was among their number. Four-year college guards do not tend to make great lottery choices. For every exception there are a hundred that prove the rule. Like everyone with a pulse, I love what Lin is doing. I don't think it indicates a need for team's to fundamentally alter how they search for talent.

For myself, I think Lin wasn't sought out for precisely the reason that nothing about his game--good pick & roll guy, shaky defense, shaky outside shot--suggested he could be a star at the next level *while he was in college.* The things that foretell NBA excellence both in statistical production and in the scout's eye, he just didn't have at Harvard. And that was the overwhelming data to be looked at when a team considered picking him up.

It's of course true as you say that players improve over time. However, the number of players who undergo a complete revolution in their game at Lin's age--and 23 is actually quite late to demonstrate NBA worthiness--is vanishingly small. It's why Wesley Johnson looks like a bust in only his second year while Mike Conley was given plenty of rope. The earlier you demonstrate a skill set, the better chance you have to make it. Lin's case is special. It just is.


You should read this article, and the articles referenced within: http://venturebeat.com/2012/02/20/jeremy-lin-women-in-vc-and-the-bigotry-of-pattern-matching/

Here's a key passage:


Prior to the 2010 draft (where all 30 NBA teams passed on Lin) their analysis ranked Lin #10 out of all players, and #1 among undrafted players. This analysis is purely statistical; the models don’t consider height, vertical leap, foot speed, and perhaps most importantly, skin color. They simply look at statistical contributions made during basketball games.

Statistical analysis continued to rate Lin highly on his rookie season [at Golden State]. He produced .157 wins per 48 minutes played, or more than 50% better than the average player, who produces .100 wins per 48 minutes played. (Incidentally, Carmelo Anthony produced .140 wins per 48 minutes played that season).

He also shone in the NBA’s Developmental League (a minor league of basketball), where he produced at a .211 clip.

I hope this will give you pause and credence to the idea that Jeremy Lin's actual production in the past merited far more than he got. The dude is a special case only in the sense that his capabilities far exceeded what chances were given. He didn't magically improve; he was simply overlooked.

[-jk]

You should read this article, and the articles referenced within: http://venturebeat.com/2012/02/20/jeremy-lin-women-in-vc-and-the-bigotry-of-pattern-matching/

Here's a key passage:



I hope this will give you pause and credence to the idea that Jeremy Lin's actual production in the past merited far more than he got. The dude is a special case only in the sense that his capabilities far exceeded what chances were given -- he was simply overlooked.

That's all well and good. But did he pass the (infamous) "eye-ball" test? Lots of players and teams fail that one, and any stats that don't confirm that failure are deemed misleading. (c.f., Duke 2010.)

-jk

[snowdenscold]

It's nice of Jeremy Lin to assume that its use was unintentional, but I call foul.

I cannot think of a single reason why the phrase "chink in the armor" would come up naturally and accidentally in this situation. Did anyone use this phrase when Kentucky, Syracuse, or Murray State lost its first game? It's deliberate wordplay, which would be fine if it weren't also offensive.



From http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregorymcneal/2012/02/18/espn-uses-chink-in-the-armor-line-twice-did-linsanity-just-go-racist/ :


Unlike an on-air comment, most writers and editors obsess over the headline even after they click the publish button. So my sense of things is that whoever posted the headline thought about it, giggled, and clicked publish. In fairness to the writer/editor, the term “chink in the armor” has been used over 3,000 times on ESPN.com, but just because it is a frequently used term doesn’t absolve the writers and editors of responsibility to use common sense.

[Des Esseintes]

You should read this article, and the articles referenced within: http://venturebeat.com/2012/02/20/jeremy-lin-women-in-vc-and-the-bigotry-of-pattern-matching/

Here's a key passage:

I hope this will give you pause and credence to the idea that Jeremy Lin's actual production in the past merited far more than he got. The dude is a special case only in the sense that his capabilities far exceeded what chances were given. He didn't magically improve; he was simply overlooked.

All right, dude. Let's pretend that this one advanced model--which looks impressive, by the way--is the only advanced draft model in existence and that there are no others that considered Lin a marginal prospect. Let's pretend that 100% of the smart money thought Lin is the draft's tenth best player.

Now consider this: Lin's career averages at Harvard are 12.9 points and 3.5 assists. His senior season he averaged 16.4 and 4.5. You know what is averages are since his Nets breakthrough and the nine starting games that have followed? 24.6 and 9.2. Think about that for a minute.

If you can find me ANY player who spent four years in college and in his second season in the pros was scoring 10 points a game more and doubling his assists over his (injury-free) senior year, if you can find me such a player, I will be very impressed. I'm sure he exists, especially if we go back to the days when everyone played four-year careers at the college level. The reason why it will be hard to find a guy like that, however, why there are very few examples of a such an arc, is that it speaks to spectacular, almost-unique growth for a player at an age most athletes have stopped improving as dramatically as they do in their late teens. Which was my original point.

Lin is not just better according to natural athletic progression. His improvement is ultra-rare. Models such the one you've linked and statistical arguments such as cato linked earlier in the thread show the NBA was negligent in not looking more closely at Lin. But even if we grant that, he is still so much better than anyone would have any right to expect.

And regarding that model, I wonder if its prediction of Lin's success isn't more due to a bug than a feature. Consider this complete list of the 4-year college guys the advanced model thought were the tenth best players their draft years. Darnell Jackson, DeMarre Carroll, Chris Robinson, Wayne Simien, Tayshaun Prince, Terence Morris, Kenny Thomas, Bryce Drew, Eric Washington. Prince is an excellent player, and Thomas has been decent. The rest of these guys? Zeroes. Would have been wasted picks. Among that group Morris, Robinson, Washington, and Jackson were the ones taken second round or later, and they are even greater (lesser?) zeroes than the others. Each time in the past when NBA teams disagreed with this guy's model on a four-year player at that draft slot, the NBA teams were absolutely correct, and this guy was wrong. The model performs across the board quite well, but it does appear to have a weakness for four-year college guys. On Jeremy Lin, though, he was right, and they were wrong. Sometimes a statistic raises the right player for the wrong reasons, and I think it is at least possible that happened in this case. It's hard to pick good players.

[nyesq83]

This is a great film, with appearances by Tommy Amaker and Kenny Blakeney.

[thewoosh31]

This is a great film, with appearances by Tommy Amaker and Kenny Blakeney.

Saw Linsanity in theaters yesterday and cannot wait for the blu ray to come out.

It really does tell the whole story of how all of this came about and reveals quite a bit of the struggles that he went through dealing with 'perceptions', racism, and etc.

Oh, and he completely outplayed Patrick Beverly tonight, who got the starting nod, even though he also outplayed him in the pre-season.

But his benching may be the best thing for him. He's at his best when he is an underdog and he won't have two ball hogs (James Harden and Dwight Howard) to keep feeding.

[throatybeard]

Is Blakeney wearing socks halfway up his thigh. Because I loved that.*

* I kind of did. I'm not just satirizing the mid 1990s.