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View Full Version : MBB: Miami 78, Duke 74 (OT) Post Game Thread



Bob Green
02-05-2012, 04:18 PM
Discuss the game here.

DukeCrow
02-05-2012, 04:19 PM
0-6.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 04:20 PM
If profanity were allowed on the boards... I'd set a record.

I think this was a disappointing loss, to say the least. The lack of effort, then the complete turnaround in the 2nd half, followed by something I thought I'd never see by a Duke team - 6 missed FTs in a row in OT.

Terrible, but I don't think this hurts going in to Wed's game.

BleedsP287
02-05-2012, 04:20 PM
I think we're playing for third in the ACC now. This team has the talent, but we're not playing harder than the other guy. You have to want it to win. wtb some urgency.

hq2
02-05-2012, 04:21 PM
0-6

'nuf said!

CLW
02-05-2012, 04:21 PM
Sad effort in the 1st half + the free throw game coming back to bite us (as many predicted it would in tight games) = L

This team just doesn't have that edge; intensity; heart; desire; toughness; focus; etc.... to be great and they are probably not going to survive the 1st weekend in the NCAA tourny.


13/22 from the free throw line and 0/6 in OT. (and Mason was 2/3 for the game from the line so it wasn't all him).

DukieInBrasil
02-05-2012, 04:21 PM
Duke put roughly 80% FT shooters on the line for 6 FTs, where only making 4-6 would be a poor showing. They made 0-6.
And then there's also Quinn's plays at the end to throw the game away too.
I've not seen such disorganized ball at the end of a game since Jr High JV games.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-05-2012, 04:21 PM
0-6.


I love Quinn Cook, he played a nice 2nd half, but wow he kinda blew it there at the end.

Probably one of the most disappointing losses I can remember as a Duke fan. Unacceptable.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 04:22 PM
To add insult to injury, ESPN plays the Fab Five documentary right after. Do they play it after every Duke game?

CoachJ10
02-05-2012, 04:23 PM
Duke put roughly 80% FT shooters on the line for 6 FTs, where only making 4-6 would be a poor showing. They made 0-6.
And then there's also Quinn's plays at the end to throw the game away too.
I've not seen such disorganized ball at the end of a game since Jr High JV games.

Very surprised we did not take a timeout to set up a play (when we were down by 1).

IBleedBlue
02-05-2012, 04:23 PM
The 6 missed free throws in OT was the difference.
And I also cringe every time Ryan Kelly gets the ball at perimeter. Unless he shoots a three pointer, its either a turn over or an empty possession.

I think the article on the front page about who can beat Kentucky is a little biased towards Duke. I watched UK vs SC game yesterday. With the kind of defense UK plays, this Duke team is definitely not one of the teams that can beat them.

Son of Mojo
02-05-2012, 04:23 PM
There's a cloud of profanity hanging over my house right now.........horrid first half, finally came to play with 10 minutes left in the 2nd half, and then the missed FT's in OT......that hurt. That hurt bad. I just hope that, finally, the guys get the collective fire in the belly needed for the remainder of the year. You have GOT to want it more than the other guy and FIGHT them for it better than this play lately. NEXT.

gotoguy
02-05-2012, 04:23 PM
Turned the game on at 5:00 to check the score and it was the beginning of overtime. Wow. Thought we played great defense in the OT,but...0 for 6 and that rushed shot by Cook sealed our fate. Why didn't Mason play at the start of OT?

GTHC GTH

rsvman
02-05-2012, 04:24 PM
It's like they were so relieved to get into the OT that they just let off the gas pedal. It looked like they believed they had the game just because they survived regulation. Really sad not to be able to make any free throws in the OT.

HateCarolina
02-05-2012, 04:24 PM
I think the title somes it up. Piss poor defense and rebounding in the paint and can't get a timeout called. I'm so ticked off on so many levels right now. I have been nonplussed about the Super Bowl, but now I'm just hoping its a good game to take my mind off the loss.

#1Duke
02-05-2012, 04:24 PM
If profanity were allowed on the boards... I'd set a record.

I think this was a disappointing loss, to say the least. The lack of effort, then the complete turnaround in the 2nd half, followed by something I thought I'd never see by a Duke team - 6 missed FTs in a row in OT.

Terrible, but I don't think this hurts going in to Wed's game.

You don't?? Getting beat by an unranked team on your floor?? In your house??
Really, it's OK to remain positive but be realistic, this was a terrible loss at a terrible time. I'm so upset I don't know what to say!!

DesertDevil
02-05-2012, 04:25 PM
I didn't get to see the game, but I was looking at the ESPN box score & I notice they had Mason listed as a bench player. Is that correct & if so, why didn't he start?

Obviously, I'm not questioning K, just curious if there was a reason given.

Bluedevil114
02-05-2012, 04:26 PM
0-6 from the line are you serious? Down 1 and Cook drives out of control then throws up an off balance shot, why? Mason disappeared for most of the game. Hairston misses easy shots around the basket early second half.

I know these guys played more minutes then most of the year but fatigue should not have been an issue when you are at the line. The worst half of the year followed by Duke basketball in the second half followed by a team that looked nervous in OT.

Reggie Johnson was great tonight. Never got sped up and Miami benefited from some lucky shots in the second half.

This was a bad loss.

cameroncrazy3104
02-05-2012, 04:26 PM
0-6
terrible late game management
no low post defense
and I really hate to say it....Karl Hess

DukeCrow
02-05-2012, 04:26 PM
I love Quinn Cook, he played a nice 2nd half, but wow he kinda blew it there at the end.

Probably one of the most disappointing losses I can remember as a Duke fan. Unacceptable.

A TO would have been nice on that possession by Cook where he threw up a prayer. Or at least getting the ball to Curry or Rivers to settle down the team a bit and reset the offense.

Losses outside of the tourney are only bad if you don't learn from them. A lot of teaching points in this game. Now the players have to internalize the lessons.

moonpie23
02-05-2012, 04:27 PM
I don't think this hurts going in to Wed's game.

we're gonna hurt a lot more coming OUT of wed's game.... :( ugh

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 04:27 PM
You don't?? Getting beat by an unranked team on your floor?? In your house??
Really, it's OK to remain positive but be realistic, this was a terrible loss at a terrible time. I'm so upset I don't know what to say!!

It's the classic "trap game." UNC almost suffered the same fate at Maryland, but had a lenient whistle to bail them out a few times.

Duke lost, but they didn't get blown out. And they fought back after being down big. Some positives to take out of the game and going in to the UNC game. If Duke hits their FTs we talk about what a grind it out win they had. Sure it's disappointing, but I don't think they'll lack in effort on Wed.

snowdenscold
02-05-2012, 04:28 PM
One play I remember in the first half: Austin puts up a 3 that just rims out, but then Hairston grabs the rebound. Unfortunately he misses the putback, but at least Mason gets another OR. Then he's called for traveling as he's dragged to the floor.

I thought "I hope we don't need those 2 points later...".


I'm torn in my emotions between knowing we put up a good fight to come back down from 16, and all the ways we still blew it.

I don't think I've screamed (shrieked?) at the TV that loudly in quite awhile.

johnny2001
02-05-2012, 04:29 PM
rivers and cook generally make "ok" decisions with the ball however the decision making in OT was well below "ok". cook! what are you thinking???!! that's the kind of shot you take at the buzzer...and only at at the buzzer. losing to FSU and the U at home in the same season has got to sting. i can't stand watching this right now. i'm starting to feel the pain of nolan smith's and singler's departure right now more than ever before. there is no defining player on this team. no one to stand up and encourage a great play on defense and no one who seems willing or more importantly capable, to carry the team on offense when it's needed. rivers seems willing but incapable because his outside shot is way too inconsistent.

this team is 3rd best in ACC and my prediction for the remainder of the season is 2nd week of NCAAs at best. for a die hard duke fan like myself i think i duped myself into thinking this year's team had the talent and drive to somehow make the loss of last year's talent somehow not be felt. well the reality is that this year's team is in the middle of a likely a 2 to 3 year rebuilding process back to final four caliber play.

i wish i could get a tape of the 1/2 time locker room talk. coach k must be disgusted with the effort of this year's team at times and no more so than after the first half of this game.

gcashwell
02-05-2012, 04:31 PM
Duke should not have been in the position they were in. The comeback was great, but led to costly fatigue. Hopefully they learn (again) to play with intensity because they are going to need it Thursday.

Class of '94
02-05-2012, 04:31 PM
I'm actually encouraged about the heart and hustle this team played in the second half and in overtime. In an ideal world, I'd love for them to have played the whole game with that inetensity; but I'd rather see them do it in the second half than play hard in the first and let up in the second half. This is where I acxtually think the team bein "young and inexperienced" showed up and they'll learn from this and I belive they will groow and be a better team. As far as the missed FTs, I'm wondering if those missed were due to fatigue. Afterall, most of that lineup played a majority of the second half and overtime. And while I refuse to ever blame the refs, they blew it at the end of OT with missing Coach K asking for a timeout. I'm not saying we would've tied the game but we would've had enough time to take better shot than what Ryan had. Again, it shouldn't have come to that last play; we should've made the FTs and played harder in the first half; but that said, I think the team will be ready to play UNC on Wednesday.

DukeDevil
02-05-2012, 04:35 PM
So I told myself at one point in the second half that the team's newfound intensity made it so that even if we lost, I'd be ok with it, because at least they played with respect and hunger. I'd by lying if I said I wasn't at all upset, the free throws being the primary reason in OT, but I will say this, at least they had the strength to bring it the second half and internalize K's message. We could discuss the nitty gritty of what they did right, wrong, etc. all day and night, and likely will, but I'm just going to take some comfort in that.

Secondly, I want to commend the crazies. They really brought it this game. They were LOUD LOUD LOUD. I think they heard the talk on the street as well, and took it to heart. They really brought it this game, even in the first half when the team was playing dismally.

MaxAMillion
02-05-2012, 04:35 PM
rivers and cook generally make "ok" decisions with the ball however the decision making in OT was well below "ok". cook! what are you thinking???!! that's the kind of shot you take at the buzzer...and only at at the buzzer. losing to FSU and the U at home in the same season has got to sting. i can't stand watching this right now. i'm starting to feel the pain of nolan smith's and singler's departure right now more than ever before. there is no defining player on this team. no one to stand up and encourage a great play on defense and no one who seems willing or more importantly capable, to carry the team on offense when it's needed. rivers seems willing but incapable because his outside shot is way too inconsistent.

this team is 3rd best in ACC and my prediction for the remainder of the season is 2nd week of NCAAs at best. for a die hard duke fan like myself i think i duped myself into thinking this year's team had the talent and drive to somehow make the loss of last year's talent somehow not be felt. well the reality is that this year's team is in the middle of a likely a 2 to 3 year rebuilding process back to final four caliber play.

i wish i could get a tape of the 1/2 time locker room talk. coach k must be disgusted with the effort of this year's team at times and no more so than after the first half of this game.

I can recall some disappointment when Singler and Smith were underclassmen. Inconsistent play happens from a lot of freshmen. The unfortunate part is that next year when the freshmen become sophomores, we will lose experienced big men.

#1Duke
02-05-2012, 04:35 PM
It's the classic "trap game." UNC almost suffered the same fate at Maryland, but had a lenient whistle to bail them out a few times.

Duke lost, but they didn't get blown out. And they fought back after being down big. Some positives to take out of the game and going in to the UNC game. If Duke hits their FTs we talk about what a grind it out win they had. Sure it's disappointing, but I don't think they'll lack in effort on Wed.

The important words here are " at Maryland " not at UNC.

Good to know that that they won't have the same lack of effort on UNC's floor playing a ranked team as they had on their floor playing an unranked team.

I'm going for a walk and relax a bit.

MCFinARL
02-05-2012, 04:35 PM
I didn't get to see the game, but I was looking at the ESPN box score & I notice they had Mason listed as a bench player. Is that correct & if so, why didn't he start?

Obviously, I'm not questioning K, just curious if there was a reason given.

He did start. Often the ESPN box scores are wrong, especially during and immediately after the game. I think the ESPN box score has now been corrected.

It was not, however, Mason's most effective game, which may explain why he did not start in overtime.

CDu
02-05-2012, 04:35 PM
I didn't get to see the game, but I was looking at the ESPN box score & I notice they had Mason listed as a bench player. Is that correct & if so, why didn't he start?

Obviously, I'm not questioning K, just curious if there was a reason given.

Mason started along with Hairston, Dawkins, Rivers, and Thornton. ESPN sometimes seems to just lists the top five scorers as the starters.

rsvman
02-05-2012, 04:36 PM
I'm actually encouraged about the heart and hustle this team played in the second half and in overtime. In an ideal world, I'd love for them to have played the whole game with that inetensity; but I'd rather see them do it in the second half than play hard in the first and let up in the second half. This is where I acxtually think the team bein "young and inexperienced" showed up and they'll learn from this and I belive they will groow and be a better team. As far as the missed FTs, I'm wondering if those missed were due to fatigue. Afterall, most of that lineup played a majority of the second half and overtime. And while I refuse to ever blame the refs, they blew it at the end of OT with missing Coach K asking for a timeout. I'm not saying we would've tied the game but we would've had enough time to take better shot than what Ryan had. Again, it shouldn't have come to that last play; we should've made the FTs and played harder in the first half; but that said, I think the team will be ready to play UNC on Wednesday.

I disagree that they played with intensity in the overtime. For the three minutes of it they waltzed and watched Miami play ball.
Otherwise, I agree with your post.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 04:37 PM
The important words here are " at Maryland " not at UNC.

Good to know that that they won't have the same lack of effort on UNC's floor playing a ranked team as they had on their floor playing an unranked team.

I'm going for a walk and relax a bit.

Doesn't matter. A loss isn't worth more at home than away.

DukeCrow
02-05-2012, 04:37 PM
Coach K never sounded so disappointed in a team in his post-game comments to Bob Harris. Very upset that the team didn't play with heart and intensity for the full game.

RockyMtDevil
02-05-2012, 04:38 PM
I've never been more disappointed in a Duke team than I am today. I don't know that anyone knows what to say, it's sad but this team just doesn't have it. I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid. The chemistry, defense, communication and heart are all but gone on this team, if it ever existed...

Done. I can't believe we allowed a Miami team to come in and absolutely embarres us on our home court. Wow.

BlueTeuf
02-05-2012, 04:40 PM
Thought they may have grown up a bit in the second half; competed much better on the boards, defended on the perimeter with greater energy and intellect.

Saw Cook's end game turnover as a lob that Mason never went for. We're pretty well in to the season for that kind of miscommunication or misunderstanding, but K's not exactly got the roles defined yet.

Since game 10, I'd abandoned idea that this is a top ten team - but 2nd half seemed to show it's still possible.

BlueTeuf
02-05-2012, 04:43 PM
Nice assist to the fans. Kept the energy up when it looked pretty gloomy.

duke09hms
02-05-2012, 04:46 PM
I'm actually encouraged about the heart and hustle this team played in the second half and in overtime. In an ideal world, I'd love for them to have played the whole game with that inetensity; but I'd rather see them do it in the second half than play hard in the first and let up in the second half. This is where I acxtually think the team bein "young and inexperienced" showed up and they'll learn from this and I belive they will groow and be a better team. As far as the missed FTs, I'm wondering if those missed were due to fatigue. Afterall, most of that lineup played a majority of the second half and overtime. And while I refuse to ever blame the refs, they blew it at the end of OT with missing Coach K asking for a timeout. I'm not saying we would've tied the game but we would've had enough time to take better shot than what Ryan had. Again, it shouldn't have come to that last play; we should've made the FTs and played harder in the first half; but that said, I think the team will be ready to play UNC on Wednesday.

Except this team isn't young and inexperienced. St. Johns is young and inexperienced. Duke having 4 juniors/seniors playing heavy minutes to 1 freshmen is not young and inexperienced. No excuse for the play in the first half. Down 16 to an unranked team on your homecourt? That's worse than UNC-FSU. At least FSU was ranked and it was AT FSU.

lotusland
02-05-2012, 04:46 PM
After a first half melt-down and furious comeback Duke really needed some poise in OT. You can say a lot of nice things about the game played by Seth, AR and QC except that they all faded at the line in OT. I think Rivers has to be the guy on this team and his next step is to be the man at crunch time. He played tough defense (including a great block that he got whistled for) the whole game, collected 9 rebounds, provided life support for our offense for the first 25 minutes, picked up a few assists and would have had a few more if his teamates could have thrown it in the ocean early. The only thing he didn't do is knock down a three anfd/or a couple of free throws when we needed it in OT. He keeps proving the doubters wrong so I think he becomes a great crunch time player soon.

Nice to see Seth get his groove back from outside. I thought the announcer was right that Seth looks for a foul instead of finishing strong inside though and how does a 90% free throw shooter miss 2 straight in OT? Cook played a great second half including good defense on the ball for the most part but he tried to do way too much on those 2 possessions late in the game where he got bailed out by a foul and then threw up a desparation heave the next time down.

Our Bigs were underwhelming for the most part and Dre didn't get much burn with Seth, QC and AR playing well in the second half. I thought it was interesting that Mason didn't start in OT and Quinn played the whole period.

I wonder if K asks AR to check HB Wed?

Bob Green
02-05-2012, 04:49 PM
I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid.

When I head off to work tomorrow morning, I'll be wearing my Duke sweatshirt.

arnie
02-05-2012, 04:51 PM
Coach K never sounded so disappointed in a team in his post-game comments to Bob Harris. Very upset that the team didn't play with heart and intensity for the full game.

I don't agree that it's all lack of intensity - the team lacks quickness at a lot of positions. If Kelly's not hitting, he becomes a huge liability on the defensive end and we just don't have anyone else to play in his place.

I think they will recover, but easily see 4 more conference losses (the last half is much harder than the first half).

CajunDevil
02-05-2012, 04:52 PM
I've never been more disappointed in a Duke team than I am today. I don't know that anyone knows what to say, it's sad but this team just doesn't have it. I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid. The chemistry, defense, communication and heart are all but gone on this team, if it ever existed...

Done. I can't believe we allowed a Miami team to come in and absolutely embarres us on our home court. Wow.


Seriously?? What embarrasses me is that another Duke "fan" would actually think this about the current Duke team, let alone write something like this on a message board.

The first half was ridiculously bad, but the second half was very positive. Cook got some much needed crunch time minutes and his youth showed... but we will be much better for it in March, when he makes the smart decisions down the stretch. I'm excited about this team and our potential!

dukepsy1963
02-05-2012, 04:53 PM
Many have voiced their encouragement about what the future brings based on what they witnessed today....
Well, I am just happy that no one literally "died."
Other than that, I don't have anything to say that's printable...

you win some, you lose some really badly...



Go Duke!!

mgtr
02-05-2012, 04:53 PM
I don't understand why our offense isn't based on this: Get it inside to Mason or Miles, who immediately takes it hard to the basket. Three probable outcomes - a basket, a block or a foul on the defense. Two of three good outcomes. That was a good bit of the Miami offense. Granted, Johnson can shove his way in because of bulk, but Mason and Miles can jump a lot higher. I wonder how many of our offensive sets involved getting it inside? Not too many.
I have to focus on such minutiae to avoid ranting and getting a nasty penalty!

CoachJ10
02-05-2012, 04:54 PM
Except this team isn't young and inexperienced. St. Johns is young and inexperienced. Duke having 4 juniors/seniors playing heavy minutes to 1 freshmen is not young and inexperienced. No excuse for the play in the first half. Down 16 to an unranked team on your homecourt? That's worse than UNC-FSU. At least FSU was ranked and it was AT FSU.

Actually the FSU loss was at Cameron.

Class of '94
02-05-2012, 04:55 PM
Except this team isn't young and inexperienced. St. Johns is young and inexperienced. Duke having 4 juniors/seniors playing heavy minutes to 1 freshmen is not young and inexperienced. No excuse for the play in the first half. Down 16 to an unranked team on your homecourt? That's worse than UNC-FSU. At least FSU was ranked and it was AT FSU.

We started 2 sophmores, 1 freshman and 2 juniors; and outside of possibly Seth and Mason, no one played a consitently significant role on last year's team. They're still learning. That said, there's no excuse for the lack of intensity, passion and heart that this year's team has shown; and I'm not sure that this team will develop those qualities consistently over the remaining games of the season. But based on their second half effort, I believe they still have a chance to. It's still just the beginning of February and they have a month to bring it all together.

KandG
02-05-2012, 04:59 PM
I'm still proud to be a Duke fan, and though I've been vocal about the team's shortcomings, I think this group has another leap forward in it. Still can't see them getting past the first weekend of the tournament, but this is a good group of players. Even the better teams in the last few years had bad losses.

Today, though, was too reminiscent of the McBob/Paulus team in 2007.

sagegrouse
02-05-2012, 05:02 PM
What a disappointment!

Here, IMHO (where the H is always silent), are the few bright spots:


Curry played well and shot well.

Austin had another very good game overall.

Quinn Cook may have earned himself a start at UNC.

Miles seemed to do a better job on Johnson than anyone.


Not a positive but a hopeful prediction: Mason could not do worse on offense than he did today -- look for better.

Another sign of hope, however small: We knew this team would be up-and-down. Let's hope this was the low point.

sagegrouse

duke09hms
02-05-2012, 05:02 PM
Actually the FSU loss was at Cameron.

Im referring to the UNC-FSU loss which was in Tallahassee

sagegrouse
02-05-2012, 05:04 PM
Im referring to the UNC-FSU loss which was in Tallahassee

Although FSU ws unranked at the time and became ranked again only after beating both UNC and Duke. -- sage

Kfanarmy
02-05-2012, 05:05 PM
I missed most of the game...saw the last two minutes and the overtime. Don't recollect Duke guards ever missing 6 FTs in a row...simply don't ever remember it. But what was the offense trying to do in the OT. Wow what were they trying to do on offense...go one on one, I get, but when three guys close on you, isn't someone else open? Isn't QC supposed to be a distributor?

DukieInBrasil
02-05-2012, 05:05 PM
I think Rivers has to be the guy on this team and his next step is to be the man at crunch time. He played tough defense (including a great block that he got whistled for) the whole game, collected 9 rebounds, provided life support for our offense for the first 25 minutes, picked up a few assists and would have had a few more if his teamates could have thrown it in the ocean early. The only thing he didn't do is knock down a three anfd/or a couple of free throws when we needed it in OT. He keeps proving the doubters wrong so I think he becomes a great crunch time player soon.
He played great everywhere today except at either the 3pt line or the FT line. He is far too poor of FT shooter to be the guy who always has it at crunch time. I knew he would miss one of those in the OT, i didn't think he'd miss both. One good thing bout Rivers though, at the beginning of the game, he was the only Devil that was there to play. He seems like the type of player who will come out with a vengeance to redeem himself next game.
It took Curry a while to get into it, but he had his best game in a long time, which is good to see going into next game.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 05:06 PM
I don't understand why our offense isn't based on this: Get it inside to Mason or Miles, who immediately takes it hard to the basket. Three probable outcomes - a basket, a block or a foul on the defense. Two of three good outcomes. That was a good bit of the Miami offense. Granted, Johnson can shove his way in because of bulk, but Mason and Miles can jump a lot higher. I wonder how many of our offensive sets involved getting it inside? Not too many.
I have to focus on such minutiae to avoid ranting and getting a nasty penalty!

I've been saying the same all year. This team needs to play a mix of inside-out and dribble/drive/kick instead of having the guards dominate the ball. We have some talented shooters but not a lot of talented creators. The more spot up jumpers, the better our chances. I feel like when Mason is getting shots, teams have to collapse and that leaves shooters open for him to find, similar to how Zoubek would find shooters on offensive rebounds.

cspan37421
02-05-2012, 05:07 PM
To invert the name of a popular business book ....

We don't stink. We are good. We can be very good, and at times, great. But also, at times we can really appear lackadaisical, esp. on defense.

Coach K is facing his biggest coaching challenge in quite some time this year. He's always adapted his system to his personnel, and it appears that part of that this year has been to run deeper bench than normal. I'm not sure why that is - perhaps there's a lot of parity on the team talent-wise, leadership-wise. But I wonder if he's second guessing that. No one is a floor general out there. It's leadership by committee and that has led to a diffusion of responsibility. No one is "the man" out there. Austin has lately played some tough D and really gotten after the rebounds. Not that he's doing everything right - there are plenty of mistakes to go around (turnovers esp.) - but he clearly is busting his rump out there to win.

Anyway I wonder if, at this point in the season, Coach will shorten his bench and just let the tie go to the ones with more experience. Ride upperclassman leadership and see what happens. One would hope experience would pay dividends at crunch time.

It will be hard to decide. Some players clearly are better on D than on O, you do have to factor in turnovers, assists, FT%, propensity to foul, ... it's not easy. But I think we're confused out there too often, and for all our offensive efficiency, we could be even better on the O end. Just witness that shot/lob? that cook threw up.

DukieInBrasil
02-05-2012, 05:07 PM
Actually the FSU loss was at Cameron.

UNC lost to FSU at FSU.

CoachJ10
02-05-2012, 05:07 PM
Im referring to the UNC-FSU loss which was in Tallahassee

Doh, casualty of reading while angry. Duly noted...

1 24 90
02-05-2012, 05:09 PM
I agree that today was a disappointment but I wonder if Austin makes both free throws at the end of regulation and we win 70-69 after Miami can't get anything going in the last 12 seconds if everyone is a little less harsh with their thoughts and they are raving about the second half comeback? Sorry for the run-on sentence.

Mhgraham
02-05-2012, 05:09 PM
This team's chance of winning is like flipping a coin. You have no idea which team is going to show up. I respect the response at halftime and fight to actually make it a game, but lets be honest the game was lost in the 1H. I truly believe if K starts that same five against UNC it will be a quick 10-12 to 0. Our point production goes down significantly when that 5 starts. I have been a duke fan for as long as I have been alive, but I can not remember a team that just does not put two full halfs together in one game. We are so inconsistent. We occasionally start off so slow with poor defense and it shows in the end result. I just have a couple things to take away from today:

1. Free throws. We were 0-6 from the line in OT. Make them, we win. It take the life out of the opponent.
2. Kelly and Dawkins can absolutely not go 4-15 from the field and to make it worse 3-11 from 3s
3. Rivers played well.
4. Glad to see Curry finally have a breakout game. This may light a spark in the second half of the ACC season.
5. MP2 still seems intimidated and soft when playing a larger F/C. He needs to come back for another year. He will get shredded in NBA.

Kfanarmy
02-05-2012, 05:10 PM
I agree that today was a disappointment but I wonder if Austin makes both free throws at the end of regulation and we win 70-69 after Miami can't get anything going in the last 12 seconds if everyone is a little less harsh with their thoughts and they are raving about the second half comeback? Sorry for the run-on sentence.

but that ain't what happened is it?

Mike Corey
02-05-2012, 05:12 PM
Lost our mental focus in overtime, I thought. After that wonderful comeback, I suspect too many assumed or suspected that Miami would lay down for us in overtime. When you miss six free throws, something's wrong with your concentration.

Someone said it above, and I agree wholeheartedly: this is Coach K's toughest coaching challenge in some time. There's something about this team that has lent itself toward unpredictability.

I'm a little tired and a little too fired up to posit any solutions. I'll leave that for those that know this team.

As a fan, I'm trying to keep this in perspective: the bad games make the good games all the more enjoyable and we're watching a team go through the schizophrenic fits and starts that we've been fortunate enough not to have too often in Durham.

Kfanarmy
02-05-2012, 05:18 PM
that's two ACC losses in a row at home...7-3 in the last ten with 8 games left...what will the final record be?

dukeman28428
02-05-2012, 05:18 PM
I had hoped Duke would come out today and play with passion and as a team.
We looked flat and lacked desire in first half and for first 4 minutes or so of second half.
In Coach K's interview on the radio, he was obviously very disappointed as am I. Cameron
was loud enough but missed free throws, turn overs and only playing hard for 16 minutes will
not get it done. We are young but this is not like Duke.

Hope we come out very mad and focused next Wednesday or it could be a long night.

Let's GO DUKE

duke09hms
02-05-2012, 05:32 PM
that's two ACC losses in a row at home...7-3 in the last ten with 8 games left...what will the final record be?

I think we'll likely finish the regular season 24-7, with two losses to UNC and one to FSU at FSU. But hey you never know, especially with this team.

Anyone else nervous for next Wednesday? I just hope we show up and fight.

RockyMtDevil
02-05-2012, 05:37 PM
It's more than just a political sound bite, my frustration is that I don't have faith that these guys can take care of business nor do I have any hope at all that we can figure things out down the stretch. Seriously, does anyone really believe that all of a sudden we are going to start playing defense, we are going to show up and play hard for 40 minutes, to actually have a vocal floor leader and to make smart decisions down the stretch?

I just don't have any hope that these things can be fixed with this squad and with the mental talent we have. 24-7 and a 4 seed with a one and done is the trajectory we are on. A 2007 meltdown is also now in the equation and I would have never, ever dreamed that of this team.

It's february and we're playing our worst basketball, at least there's no fear of peaking early.

jipops
02-05-2012, 05:54 PM
that's two ACC losses in a row at home...7-3 in the last ten with 8 games left...what will the final record be?

My 10-6 prediction is looking good. Well, not good. Didn't want to be right about that.

mapei
02-05-2012, 05:58 PM
My thought is that Miami beat us more than we lost to them. And here's why:


Rebounding. Miami simply has more strength than we do. They got all the contested ones, even in the second half. Does K sacrifice strength for skills in recruiting? Not at all sure about that, but for whatever reason Miami had about 3 guys stronger than any of ours.

Reggie Johnson. He's certainly strong, but also surprisingly skilled. We had no answer for him whatever. What a game by him: that hug with his mom afterward is for every heavy-set kid who felt self-conscious as a youngster but found redemption in something he does very well.

Stupid freshman mistakes toward the end of the game, not just in overtime. We rushed shots time and again, and that last play was hideous. So that's the part that's on us. Somehow I see the missed FTs as part of this, since the chances weren't really coming out of good plays.


I don't think desire and heart had anything to do with it.

Greg_Newton
02-05-2012, 06:10 PM
Man, I hope Cook isn't set back too much by this latest knee tweak. He definitely reaggravated the knee with the brace on that last, weird-looking shot in overtime, though he got up and played through it. That's the last thing we need.

I thought Austin was the only one who showed up in the first half, and was the only thing keeping us from getting blown out by 20+. I thought Cook was a huge spark in the second half on both ends, and probably earned his starting spot back - which is why I hated to see him writhing in pain and holding his knee. Curry also got in his zone in the second half; sure, we missed 6 FTs in OT, but I put this one squarely on our big guys. Doubleteams and rotations were pathetic, hands were weak, and they played with no purpose on offense. Mason's worst game of the season, by far, IMO.

One thing that struck me was how Cook and Rivers are our only two players who look at the opponent, stand up to them, if you will. Kelly, in particular, is always looking at the bench, looking at the refs, his teammates. That's all well and good and has its place, but sometimes you've got to have the fire to look your opponent in the eyes and decide he's not going to beat you. Think Laettner, Wojo, etc. They weren't trying to be "Duke basketball players" and let the coaches guide them to a win, they took things onto their own shoulders. Quinn's defensive scowl when he gets pumped is my favorite thing about him.

Greg_Newton
02-05-2012, 06:14 PM
Side note, anyone think K would get to the point of trying a full-time trapping press? It worked great today, and if we're going to give up a lot of points anyway, we may as well do it on our terms, and wreak some havoc and create some turnovers in the process. And if there's one thing we've got, it's backcourt depth...

Devilsfan
02-05-2012, 06:18 PM
I remember in years past when someone would say by February they're not Freshmen any more. Today our guys showed they are still Freshmen. When one shows they're very nervous at the free throw line and almost walks to the top of the other key why put the ball in his hands at the end of the overtime? Today was no one in particulars fault, it was a team effort (or lack of) with everyone on the same page for about 23 minutes. Then they seemed to wake up, but at the end their was no one to lead us with the game on the line so we gave it to our Freshmen to win or lose.

WiJoe
02-05-2012, 06:29 PM
Duke missed seven of its last eight free throws. Rivers made 1 of 2 with 21 seconds to play in regulation.

CameronDuke
02-05-2012, 06:30 PM
I haven't read much of this thread, but can someone explain the line of thinking to have the ball down 1 and with the shot clock off and to start your offense with 20 seconds still remaining? I believe Duke did that in regulation and in OT. Even if we scored we give Miami the ball back with a chance to win. Why not start our offense down 1 with 10 seconds left? This prevents the other team from getting the ball last. Questionable late game management in my opinion.

xblade
02-05-2012, 06:32 PM
I think we'll likely finish the regular season 24-7, with two losses to UNC and one to FSU at FSU. But hey you never know, especially with this team.

Anyone else nervous for next Wednesday? I just hope we show up and fight.

Why be nervous? It's pretty much a guaranteed loss at this point.

lotusland
02-05-2012, 06:41 PM
I haven't read much of this thread, but can someone explain the line of thinking to have the ball down 1 and with the shot clock off and to start your offense with 20 seconds still remaining? I believe Duke did that in regulation and in OT. Even if we scored we give Miami the ball back with a chance to win. Why not start our offense down 1 with 10 seconds left? This prevents the other team from getting the ball last. Questionable late game management in my opinion.

2 for 1. You don't run fdown the clock when you are behind. For instance we rebounded after Austin's missed three and should have called timeout to re-set. If we milk the clock we only get one shot.

lotusland
02-05-2012, 06:43 PM
Side note, anyone think K would get to the point of trying a full-time trapping press? It worked great today, and if we're going to give up a lot of points anyway, we may as well do it on our terms, and wreak some havoc and create some turnovers in the process. And if there's one thing we've got, it's backcourt depth...

I don't know if we have the speed to do it but it was really cool to see us disrupt their offense and force some turnovers during that comeback. They really looked out of sorts during that stretch which is usually a staple for Duke.

gumbomoop
02-05-2012, 06:52 PM
Losses outside of the tourney are only bad if you don't learn from them. A lot of teaching points in this game. Now the players have to internalize the lessons.

In making the following comments, I want to acknowledge up front that unlike so many of you, I do not live among avid Heel fans, so I don't have the burden of dealing with a disappointing loss while putting up with crap.

That out of the way, DC's point here is important to me. I always yearn to get some inside glimpses of how K teaches. As luck would have it, his TV program yesterday morn [taped, I think, before the VT game] was about film sessions. Andre was sort of the featured player, and his comments and K's gave some good examples of how they use film.

Now, how will the staff use film of this game? What teaching points will they emphasize? Beyond what will surely be some continuing focus on porous defense, I wonder whether - and definitely prefer that - K emphasizes that "every point counts." Seems obvious, but each time I see one of our bigs blow a near-certain 2 points with a one-handed thunder-dunk - Miles being the chief culprit - I cuss. So.....


One play I remember in the first half: Austin puts up a 3 that just rims out, but then Hairston grabs the rebound. Unfortunately he misses the putback.... I thought "I hope we don't need those 2 points later..."

.... this play was dismaying in the extreme, for Josh missed the putback because he attempted a thunder-dunk instead of a straightforward lay in, or 2-handed dunk.

Similarly, Mason gave up an easy 2 in the 2d half when, as is his habit, he took a rhythm dribble rather than lay the ball in. The dribble and hunching down allowed the D to get to him. Didn't score.

I don't know that film can teach guys to make FTs. I assume - but do not know to a certainty - that K believes that every point counts. So I'd genuinely like to know - but cannot - whether, in his film sessions with the team collectively and with individuals, such blown opportunities for near-certain points will get clear attention.

It's obvious that each player will make mistakes in the game. Some mistakes - those that cost near-certain points - seem especially egregious. Clearly Austin, Seth, and Quinn will feel horrible about their missed FTs. I doubt that anything on film will teach them better form [though I'm aware that some will say Austin's shot-form generally is flawed]. But any really foolish habit that can in fact be identified as such - one-handed thunder-dunks, ill-advised rhythm dribbles/bringing the ball down, the cuss-inducing lazy cross-court pass that leads to a gimme for the opponent - these might be teachable moments.

CameronDuke
02-05-2012, 06:58 PM
2 for 1. You don't run fdown the clock when you are behind. For instance we rebounded after Austin's missed three and should have called timeout to re-set. If we milk the clock we only get one shot.

If you are down 1, it is almost like being tied because any type of made basket puts you ahead (2 and 3 pointer). Giving the other team the ball back at the end of the game leaves ten with the chance of beating you. If you are down 2 or 3, I see the benefit of starting the offense with 20 secs left. But being down 1 won't give you a 2 for 1. If you make a basket an go up 1 or 2 with say 10 secs left t so, you won't be getting the ball back. The other team will have a chance to tie or win and will run the clock out doing either. You won't get the ball back.

gofurman
02-05-2012, 07:00 PM
0-6
terrible late game management
no low post defense
and I really hate to say it....Karl Hess

first, I thought many here underestimated Miami - I saw them beat MD without Kadji (who I knew was good after being a Florida player and now is a RS Junior like Curry) and they beat MD also with Johnson on the bench and one of the two best guards on the bench (foul trouble) - I was kinda pissed at seeing how entitled we sometimes think we are. This is a decent Miami team since R Johnson came back.

Dont blame the FTs in the OT, play D in the first half and it never matters. Play D. that simple.

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-05-2012, 07:01 PM
This is the least upset I have been after a Duke loss in, well, not sure I can remember....

The defense stunk in the first half, but they made up for it in the second half. The offense had kind of an off game. A couple more 3's or free throws go down and we win.

There were, however, 2 plays that really ticked me off....

1)How does Reggie Johnson beat both Miles and Ryan down the floor for a wide open layup (and one)?
2)Mason fouled one of the Miami guards about 40 ft from the basket with around 4 minutes left putting him at the line for a one and one. I know K won't call off the dogs in terms of extending the defense, even when you can argue this team is not made for that.......but, Mason?

Austin is metamorphasizing (is that a word?) before our eyes. By the end of the year, he will be the man. This kid wants to win more than anyone else on the team. It's becoming your team, kid, hopefully the other guys get on board with what you want to do.

This team has the potential to go so many different ways at this point. It is very much a work in progress. We'll see what happens on Wednesday night.....(!)

Bluealum
02-05-2012, 07:18 PM
I'm actually encouraged about the heart and hustle this team played in the second half and in overtime. In an ideal world, I'd love for them to have played the whole game with that inetensity; but I'd rather see them do it in the second half than play hard in the first and let up in the second half. This is where I acxtually think the team bein "young and inexperienced" showed up and they'll learn from this and I belive they will groow and be a better team. As far as the missed FTs, I'm wondering if those missed were due to fatigue. Afterall, most of that lineup played a majority of the second half and overtime. And while I refuse to ever blame the refs, they blew it at the end of OT with missing Coach K asking for a timeout. I'm not saying we would've tied the game but we would've had enough time to take better shot than what Ryan had. Again, it shouldn't have come to that last play; we should've made the FTs and played harder in the first half; but that said, I think the team will be ready to play UNC on Wednesday.

You know I actually feel better about this loss than the St. Johns win or after watching the dismantling at Ohio St. Those were much lower points.

I was encouraged by Miles defense on Reggie, he was the only one that made him work, and in the second half Reggie had to make some very tough shots. Sometimes they fall anyway.

I continue to be encouraged by the tenacity that Austin shows. He is getting better by the game. I thought it was very unfortunate that his so-so dump off after a drive (to Miles which he fumbled) didn't turn into the dunk it should have been. Austin stopped looking for teammates as much after that. He needs to stick with distributing even if his teammates don't always finish.

I thought Quin was a dynamo and really hope he learns from this. He made some beautiful passes, really disrupted Miami's defense and changed our dynamic. His dribble through turn around 2 was also sweet. If he quits taking contested 3's and the crazy shot at the end was pretty bad, he makes the ceiling on this team much higher. I really hope his knee is okay as I get the feeling he is a key to us finding another gear.

Seth regaining his shooting touch was also a breath of fresh air. Nice to see a little swagger to his game today.

I thought we played some really sensational defense for a stretch in the second half. At times this season I have wondered if we actually could play defense at that level. With all the height discussion about our guards, I agree with those who say it's much more about intensity. I thought the trio of Austin, Quin, and Seth played very, very well together in the second half especially defensively. I hope they play a lot together at the nose-dome.

Mason will not have many games as bad as this one. I believe he will be fired up for Carolina.

The 0-6 was stomach churning...but I want guys like Quin and Austin to face those situations now. They are our two most dynamic play-makers and I would rather them learn now by taking their lumps and succeed in the tourney, than not have the chance to play through these situations during crunch time till later in the season.

Mason has made quantum leaps in free throw shooting. This is not a small thing for this team as the games get tougher and more meaningful.

The best news is that we aren't going to have a lot of time to wallow in self pity. The Carolina game will be very telling. If the team competes like crazy (win or lose) I will be hopeful. If they come out flat then I will temper expectations further. K was down in the post game, this year is certainly wearing on him. We need self belief to come from team members not just the coaching staff, if it does we shall see it soon enough. I get the feeling he will let the team get up for the game Wednesday internally and will keep it pretty low key to see who and how individuals step into the leadership void.

Finally, kudos to the Crazies...you were heard today!

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 07:18 PM
This is the least upset I have been after a Duke loss in, well, not sure I can remember....

The defense stunk in the first half, but they made up for it in the second half. The offense had kind of an off game. A couple more 3's or free throws go down and we win.

There were, however, 2 plays that really ticked me off....

1)How does Reggie Johnson beat both Miles and Ryan down the floor for a wide open layup (and one)?
2)Mason fouled one of the Miami guards about 40 ft from the basket with around 4 minutes left putting him at the line for a one and one. I know K won't call off the dogs in terms of extending the defense, even when you can argue this team is not made for that.......but, Mason?

Austin is metamorphasizing (is that a word?) before our eyes. By the end of the year, he will be the man. This kid wants to win more than anyone else on the team. It's becoming your team, kid, hopefully the other guys get on board with what you want to do.

This team has the potential to go so many different ways at this point. It is very much a work in progress. We'll see what happens on Wednesday night.....(!)

You mean missing 6 FTs in a row didn't tick you off?

Especially considering this guy can hit them at a record clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=718ldCsCECk

Saratoga2
02-05-2012, 07:24 PM
Due to a house party I was unable to watch. Sorry they lost, but in looking at the stats of the inside players, they fell short when compared to recent games. MP2 dd get 13 rebounds, so that was a positive.

I would hope the guys will play with energy going forward. Austin Rivers has come on, maybe Seth is returning to form and Quinn has gotten better despite his mistakes at the end. These are good things to build on going forward. Go Duke

devildeac
02-05-2012, 07:25 PM
We got "hessed" (the other ref not named Natili also felt K's ire numerous times, too) on multiple occasions in that game (Mason's takedown/travel, missed 5 second calls, multiple hanstravels by Johnson, shooters fouled in/after their shots and no calls), but, in the end, we "hessed" ourselves with poor decision making/shot selection (and giving up a snowbird:mad:) late in regulation and OT, 38% FG and 59% FT with a stunning 0-7 to finish the game (or was it 1/8?).

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-05-2012, 07:27 PM
You mean missing 6 FTs in a row didn't tick you off?

Especially considering this guy can hit them at a record clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=718ldCsCECk

They made me put my head in my hands, but it didn't tick me off. The other plays I referenced showed a lack of smarts/hustle, the missed free throws were unfortunate, but not due to a lack of effort.

gumbomoop
02-05-2012, 07:38 PM
This is a decent Miami team since R Johnson came back.

Yes. Reggie was superb. Didn't much care for his he-man preening that one time, but otherwise, he seems to just play.

Miami is in a sneaky good position in the ACC. They're 5-3. And among their final 8 ACC games, 5 are at home: 3 they should win [VT, Wake, BC], plus FSU and UNC. I guess Reggie might have a much tougher time with FSU's and UNC's front lines, but it's not inconceivable that Miami could win one of these. They also play at FSU. And for that one - although I know most posters don't pay much attention to whether one team gets more prep days than its opponent - in that particular case, Miami has a 9:00 Thurs eve game, followed by a trip to Tallahassee for an early aft starting time on Sat. Hope Reggie's a he-man.

Not their concern right now, as they have to be thinking they're on a roll and looking for a top 4 ACC-finish.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 07:40 PM
Yes. Reggie was superb. Didn't much care for his he-man preening that one time, but otherwise, he seems to just play.


What I want to know is, how is *that* not taunting, but Andre saying something after a 3 is?

dyedwab
02-05-2012, 07:40 PM
The game made me as angry and frustrated as I've ever been as a Duke fan.

The lack of intensity and focus and the poor decision making have been characteristic of this team all year. We've been successful because our talent is better, not because we've played to our talent level.

We've broken down the X's and O's of this team but it seems to me that the failures we are experiencing have more to do with the mental side of the game then the physical side. And, when we follow up what might have been the worst 24 minutes played by a Duke team in Cameron in years with 16 minutes of just outstanding basketball, it seems that this team could adjust to its physical limitations if if could bring effort, intensity, focus, and good decision-making for 40 minutes every game.

But right now, this team can't.

PSurprise
02-05-2012, 07:46 PM
I root for this team night in and night out, but as I see it right now, our biggest issue is how much have we improved since the beginning of the year? Looking back through the Maui Tournament, we've played some very good basketball, but I've not seen much improvement to get us "over the top" compared to some other teams since then. Look at Kansas. Do you think at this point in the season we could beat Kansas? Right now, I very much doubt it. The OSU (and other) loss(es) have illustrated that we have need some improvement to become an elite team this season; with the likes of the OSUs, UKs, and Syracuses. Yes, we've played a difficult schedule, but much of that has been earlier in the year. Other teams have improved-have we? If our level of play continues as it did today, I don't give us much hope for getting past the Sweet Sixteen. I do think that this team has the potential to become an elite-level team, but as of right now, unless everybody wants to become better, unless the team wants to gel on the defensive end, communicate and take pride in stopping the opponents from scoring, this team does have a ceiling. And unfortunately, I think we may have seen it unless the team becomes dedicated to playing defense on an elite level. Just my .02.

diveonthefloor
02-05-2012, 07:51 PM
When I head off to work tomorrow morning, I'll be wearing my Duke sweatshirt.

I only spent 3 years as an undergrad (damn those AP credits and summer classes.)
1980-81 through 1982-83.
You don't have to be much of a Duke historian to know what that means.
We sat behind press row every game and didn't leave until our voices were gone. (And usually gone for at least several more hours.)
Today you had Karl Hess, back then we had Lenny Wirtz.

Yeah, we lost a game we should've won today.

But I'm with Bob. Got all my Duke stuff pressed and ready to wear tomorrow.
True fandom never takes a day off.

TampaDuke
02-05-2012, 07:52 PM
Thought they may have grown up a bit in the second half; competed much better on the boards, defended on the perimeter with greater energy and intellect.

Saw Cook's end game turnover as a lob that Mason never went for. We're pretty well in to the season for that kind of miscommunication or misunderstanding, but K's not exactly got the roles defined.

Haven't seen a replay, but it looked to me like Cook was about 6 seconds in to a 5 second call and was keenly aware of it. Should have called a TO, but no one came to get the ball so he drove to the basket and threw one up rather than getting called for a 5 second call. Speculation, but that's what my initial reaction was as the play was happening.

jv001
02-05-2012, 08:00 PM
Seems like a very young Christian Laettner missed a big free throw his freshman year. That didn't seem to phase him one bit. Matter of fact, he used that fateful game to make himself into probably one of the all-time Duke greats. I look for Austin and Quinn to shake off those misses. What I'm unsure of is how we play defense the rest of the year. GoDuke!

cascadedevil
02-05-2012, 08:02 PM
I've never been more disappointed in a Duke team than I am today. I don't know that anyone knows what to say, it's sad but this team just doesn't have it. I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid. The chemistry, defense, communication and heart are all but gone on this team, if it ever existed...

Done. I can't believe we allowed a Miami team to come in and absolutely embarres us on our home court. Wow.


Any fan that lets one tough loss cause them to hide their Duke clothes belongs in College Park. You can likely get a direct flight to BWI. You will find many members of your tribe there. Have fun. We will send you a postcard from the Final Four.

Bleeding Blue!
Go Duke!

lotusland
02-05-2012, 08:11 PM
If you are down 1, it is almost like being tied because any type of made basket puts you ahead (2 and 3 pointer). Giving the other team the ball back at the end of the game leaves ten with the chance of beating you. If you are down 2 or 3, I see the benefit of starting the offense with 20 secs left. But being down 1 won't give you a 2 for 1. If you make a basket an go up 1 or 2 with say 10 secs left t so, you won't be getting the ball back. The other team will have a chance to tie or win and will run the clock out doing either. You won't get the ball back.

I've never seen a team intentional run down the clock to keep the opponent from having the last posession when trailing. The object is to get a good shot as quickly as possible. What would you think if they dribbled around at half court until the 10 second mark and then didn't get a decent shot off?

Channing
02-05-2012, 08:11 PM
I am very jealous of those of you who were able to watch this game and find encouragement or confidence in this team's poise. I don't understand the thinking behind starting Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston. I may be mistaken ... but did I see Hairston airball a dunk in the 2nd half? I just find them to be best used in spurts off the bench rather than key cogs on the team. I don't think there is any question that this team's post season success is going to be predicated by Cook's ability to step up and play good strong minutes at the PG (much like Marshall for UNC last year).

Speaking of Cook ... when I saw that thought I assumed it was an alley oop toss that was just ill conceived, but on replay, it looked like a shot. Did he not understand how much time was left? That may have been the most ill advised and worst shot I have ever seen in any format ... and that includes years of playing ball at the Jewish community center as well as video games.

I was thrilled by Austin's play today. He took some ill advised 3s, but he clearly had the most "want-to" on the court for us today, or at least as far as I could tell. I was also glad to see Seth break out of his slump ... although he took a really ill advised baseline floater towards the end when it looked like he was trying to draw contact.

Has anyone heard any reason why Mike G isn't getting any burn. Surely he can offer some decent minutes at least on par with Hairston. Also, where was Dawkins in the 2nd half? Has his defense been THAT bad that K didn't think it would be worthwhile to have our best shooter on the court when we needed a 3?

Channing
02-05-2012, 08:12 PM
I've never seen a team intentional run down the clock to keep the opponent from having the last posession when trailing. The object is to get a good shot as quickly as possible. What would you think if they dribbled around at half court until the 10 second mark and then didn't get a decent shot off?

agreed ... but there is no need to rush a horrible ill advised shot with 15 seconds left on the clock.

moonpie23
02-05-2012, 08:14 PM
I've never been more disappointed in a Duke team than I am today. I don't know that anyone knows what to say, it's sad but this team just doesn't have it. I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid. The chemistry, defense, communication and heart are all but gone on this team, if it ever existed...

Done. I can't believe we allowed a Miami team to come in and absolutely embarres us on our home court. Wow.

we're not gonna miss you .....you're either a dukie, or not....

Mr.Analogy
02-05-2012, 08:17 PM
When I head off to work tomorrow morning, I'll be wearing my Duke sweatshirt.

You obviously don't live in North Carolina lol.

The hole fans are salivating, they can't wait to attack come tomorrow morning. I fear it'll be even worse come Thursday morning.....ugh......

moonpie23
02-05-2012, 08:22 PM
i live in NC....and i left the game and went str8 to a super bowl party FULL of tarholes.....

wearing my duke pullover.....i didn't FEEL good.....but i'm not gonna take off my gear because of a loss....


no "part time" dukie.....that sounds like those fans down the road...

Sgt. Dingleberry
02-05-2012, 08:22 PM
I don't understand the thinking behind starting Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston. I may be mistaken ... but did I see Hairston airball a dunk in the 2nd half?

K starts Thornton and Hairston because they scrap their tails off when they are in there. If the rest of the guys (besides Austin) matched Tyler and Josh's intensity we would have won today.

BTW, yes, Hairston did airball a dunk.

Mr.Analogy
02-05-2012, 08:26 PM
i live in NC....and i left the game and went str8 to a super bowl party FULL of tarholes.....

wearing my duke pullover.....i didn't FEEL good.....but i'm not gonna take off my gear because of a loss....


no "part time" dukie.....that sounds like those fans down the road...

I can only imagine the venom you had to avoid......

SupaDave
02-05-2012, 08:28 PM
You obviously don't live in North Carolina lol.

The hole fans are salivating, they can't wait to attack come tomorrow morning. I fear it'll be even worse come Thursday morning.....ugh......

I'm from Durham, North Carolina and I would rock my Duke gear in Time Out on Franklin St right after a Duke loss to UNC in the Dean Dome. Need I say more?

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 08:35 PM
I'm from Durham, North Carolina and I would rock my Duke gear in Time Out on Franklin St right after Duke loss to UNC in the Dean Dome. Need I say more?

Not if Julius Peppers was there... :p

http://carolinasucks.com/images/rsjuliuspeppers.htm

WiJoe
02-05-2012, 08:43 PM
I'm from Durham, North Carolina and I would rock my Duke gear in Time Out on Franklin St right after a Duke loss to UNC in the Dean Dome. Need I say more?

Instant poll:

1. Brave

B. Unwise

LOYAL is NOT an option

:cool:

DukeDevilDeb
02-05-2012, 08:50 PM
We've said a lot about poor decision making and execution by some of the freshmen, but I'd like to know what was wrong with Mason tonight. Did he oil his hands before taking the floor? I sit near what is our basket in the first half and watched more balls jump out of and away from his hands tonight than I've seen in a long time. The entire time we had that basket, Mason did not go strong to it once... not once. And on one play, he moved about six feet, then looked shocked that the ref whistled him for traveling! No one gets to move that much! The official scorer gave him only 4 TOs. I think he had a few more.

Their bigs were... well, big, and we couldn't do a thing. I liked the idea of giving Josh another start, but he just couldn't compete with guys were were that tall and that wide. At one point near the end of the game, Johnson had the ball and both Miles and Ryan were standing over him, almost like they were about to envelop him... and he scored anyway.

Today's loss is how UNC would feel if Clemson beat them at the Smith Center. Don't get me wrong... I'd love to see Clemson win there. But Miami had never won a game in Cameron. (:

I'm going to send Mason a towel! :)

WiJoe
02-05-2012, 08:50 PM
Instant poll:

1. Brave

B. Unwise

LOYAL is NOT an option

:cool:

I'd love to be down there to have your back (if I had the proper weapons, of course)

fisheyes
02-05-2012, 08:56 PM
OK...what did everyone say about the Giants mid-season?

Need I say more?

Life is a journey...

NSDukeFan
02-05-2012, 08:59 PM
It's more than just a political sound bite, my frustration is that I don't have faith that these guys can take care of business nor do I have any hope at all that we can figure things out down the stretch. Seriously, does anyone really believe that all of a sudden we are going to start playing defense, we are going to show up and play hard for 40 minutes, to actually have a vocal floor leader and to make smart decisions down the stretch?

I just don't have any hope that these things can be fixed with this squad and with the mental talent we have. 24-7 and a 4 seed with a one and done is the trajectory we are on. A 2007 meltdown is also now in the equation and I would have never, ever dreamed that of this team.

It's february and we're playing our worst basketball, at least there's no fear of peaking early.
I am an optimist and love watching college basketball players improve, so of course I believe that this team is going to play better defense, play hard for 40 minutes and make smart decisions down the stretch after some learning situations during the season. I don't think this team will have a vocal floor leader, but I am hoping they can succeed without it.

Why be nervous? It's pretty much a guaranteed loss at this point.
If Duke plays its best and UNC plays like at FSU, Duke will blow out UNC. I think that is unlikely, but I will definitely watching Wednesday, thinking Duke has a reasonable chance to win the game. I expect the staff and players will be expecting to win.

Side note, anyone think K would get to the point of trying a full-time trapping press? It worked great today, and if we're going to give up a lot of points anyway, we may as well do it on our terms, and wreak some havoc and create some turnovers in the process. And if there's one thing we've got, it's backcourt depth...
Definitely an interesting idea, as it would be nice to be able to use this team's depth effectively, but I don't think the team is disciplined enough in the half-court, let alone full-court at this point.
Next play! Any good games coming up?

Edit: I remember during the last championship year, coach K saying that team never had a bad practise. I bet you he would not say the same for this team, which makes things a lot more interesting/challenging for the coaching staff.

loldevilz
02-05-2012, 09:01 PM
K starts Thornton and Hairston because they scrap their tails off when they are in there. If the rest of the guys (besides Austin) matched Tyler and Josh's intensity we would have won today.

BTW, yes, Hairston did airball a dunk.

The real question is why Curry played point guard for like 10 minutes today during which the other team made a huge run. Quinn should be running the point for 35 minutes a game. The 5 other minutes should be stall ball at the end of the game.

brumby041
02-05-2012, 09:06 PM
Yes. Reggie was superb. Didn't much care for his he-man preening that one time, but otherwise, he seems to just play.



Last game, (also reffed by the Hess), I believe Dawkins got a T for taunting. How was Johnson's display not worthy of a T? Oh, wait, never mind - he's not a Duke player.

Hess is a disgrace.

#1Duke
02-05-2012, 09:11 PM
Last game, (also reffed by the Hess), I believe Dawkins got a T for taunting. How was Johnson's display not worthy of a T? Oh, wait, never mind - he's not a Duke player.

Hess is a disgrace.

Johnson wasn't taunting an opposing teams player ( he wasn't in anyone's face ) nor did he say a word...... his little pose was not the same thing as running your mouth at another player.... at least that's what I think.

ACCBBallFan
02-05-2012, 09:17 PM
Here are the +/- for the rotations sorted in PT order:

Duke Miami +/- Min

26 18 08 12.7 Seth-Austin-Ryan-Miles-Quinn *6

11 05 06 5.8 Seth-Austin-Mason-Quinn-Josh *2

02 06 (4) 5.1 Austin-Mason-Dre-Tyler-Josh *2

10 10 00 4.6 Seth-Austin-Mason-Miles-Quinn

09 08 01 3.9 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Quinn *2

00 08 (8) 3.4 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Dre *2

5 5 0 2.2 Seth-Mason-Ryan-Dre-Tyler

6 6 0 2.2 Seth-Austin-Ryan-Dre-Miles *2

5 3 2 2.2 Seth-Austin-Ryan-Tyler-Miles

0 4 (4) 1.4 Austin-Mason-Dre-Miles-Quinn

0 2 (2) 0.8 Seth-Austin-Mason-Dre-Miles

0 2 (2) 0.5 Seth-Austin-Mason-Tyler-Josh

0 1 (1) 0.2 Seth-Austin-Ryan-Dre-Quinn

74 78 (4.0) 45.0 Game totals

Rotations where the +/- was more than a three-pointer one way or other are bolded.

Duke guards outplayed the outstanding Miami guards but the Duke bigs were man handled by underpublicised Miami bigs:

Duke Miami +/- Metrics Total Duke

72 (68) 4 70 74 Seth Curry, G

69 (73) (4) 69 65 Austin Rivers, G

56 (46) 10 40 50 Quinn Cook, G

51 (49) 02 39 41 Ryan Kelly, F

47 (43) 04 29 33 Miles Plumlee, F

37 (50) (13) 41 28 Mason Plumlee, F

13 (13) 00 15 15 Josh Hairston, F

12 (16) (4) 11 07 Tyler Thornton, G

13 (32) (19) 17 (2) Andre Dawkins, G

370 (390) (20) TOTALS
74 (78) (4)

Quinn had a very respectable +10 while Dre was -19 and Mason -13 on other extreme.

Column labelled Metrics is sum of all positive stats like rebounds, points, assists minus TO's minus fouls.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 09:17 PM
Johnson wasn't taunting an opposing teams player ( he wasn't in anyone's face ) nor did he say a word...... his little pose was not the same thing as running your mouth at another player.... at least that's what I think.

So flexing after taking a bump to show how manly you were for making the shot isn't taunting?

OldPhiKap
02-05-2012, 09:21 PM
We did not lose because of the refs.

We lost because Miami was tougher on the boards, and tougher on the defensive end.

The team that wanted it more won. Congratulations to them.

Now, we're either going to play with that intensity or it's going to be an ugly February. It's up to the players -- not the refs -- to earn the wins.

#1Duke
02-05-2012, 09:21 PM
So flexing after taking a bump to show how manly you were for making the shot isn't taunting?

I don't think so... kind of like someone who screams and mugs after they make a monster dunk, happens all the time and I've never seen a taunting call on those.
I'm just saying it's not the same as running your mouth and directing a comment at an opposing player..... that's all.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 09:23 PM
We did not lose because of the refs.

We lost because Miami was tougher on the boards, and tougher on the defensive end.

The team that wanted it more won. Congratulations to them.

Now, we're either going to play with that intensity or it's going to be an ugly February. It's up to the players -- not the refs -- to earn the wins.

I don't get where people are saying Miami was tougher on the boards. They only outrebounded Duke by 2.

But they did shoot 5 more FTs than Duke... at Cameron.

The refs didn't cost Duke the game... the missed FTs did. But the refs sure didn't help. (especially in terms of my blood pressure)

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 09:25 PM
I don't think so... kind of like someone who screams and mugs after they make a monster dunk, happens all the time and I've never seen a taunting call on those.
I'm just saying it's not the same as running your mouth and directing a comment at an opposing player..... that's all.

Both times Andre got T'd up for taunting, it was borderline, just like the Reggie Johnson flex. That's what I'm trying to convey. If they're supposed to be cracking down on the taunting, crack down on it.

loldevilz
02-05-2012, 09:39 PM
Both times Andre got T'd up for taunting, it was borderline, just like the Reggie Johnson flex. That's what I'm trying to convey. If they're supposed to be cracking down on the taunting, crack down on it.

I think the difference here is that there was an explicit warning to Dre and Hudson to knock off the taunting during the previous possession.

uh_no
02-05-2012, 09:39 PM
I don't get where people are saying Miami was tougher on the boards. They only outrebounded Duke by 2.

But they did shoot 5 more FTs than Duke... at Cameron.

The refs didn't cost Duke the game... the missed FTs did. But the refs sure didn't help. (especially in terms of my blood pressure)

I think that's fair, but what's important is that we can't control what the refs do, so what good does it do to complain so much about something that is largely a perception anyway?

What we can control is giving up 42 points in the first half

what we can control is making our free throws

what we can control is scoring fewer than 30 points in the first half

when we master those, THEN we can start blaming refs for losses

duke09hms
02-05-2012, 09:40 PM
Both times Andre got T'd up for taunting, it was borderline, just like the Reggie Johnson flex. That's what I'm trying to convey. If they're supposed to be cracking down on the taunting, crack down on it.

Most recently, Andre got T'ed up for taunting an opposing player after the refs and Coach K on two previous occasions had told him to tone it down and not talk to the other players.
Whereas, it seems like Reggie's was more of a general outburst, not directed at anyone in particular.

And come on, you can't be blaming the refs after today's atrocious defense and overall lack of focus.

ncexnyc
02-05-2012, 09:48 PM
First off I want to apologize to the team. When they got down by 16 and looked DOA, I turned on the DVR and watched, "The Man in the Iron Mask." Needles to say while viewing the playback I was treated to one heck of a comeback. However, the basketball gods didn't forgive me for my lack of faith as the DVR cutoff at the end of regulation time so I missed the heartbreaking OT finish.

This team continues it's up and down play. They looked horrible for nearly 30 minutes of the game and then kicked it into warp drive for the final 10.
Loved the pressure, trapping defense. We've got the bodies so why not play aggressively like this more often? I wondered earlier this year if Coach K would ever turn the keys over to Austin and tell him this team is yours. I think we are fast approaching that point in time. The kid is really going all out and he's truly developing into a bigtime player right before our eyes.

Did fatigue cost us? Yes, it clearly did. They burned so much energy in that comeback they had to be running on fumes in the OT. Let's also remember the Quinn hasn't been getting a lot of PT due to being sick and tweaking his knee. A tired body not only makes physical mistakes, but mental ones as well.

I know we'll be ready for the heels and I also know that I'll never turn off the live feed of the game again. The talent is there it's just a matter of bringing it for F O R T Y M I N U T E S!

Neals384
02-05-2012, 09:58 PM
Well, there were a few positives in this game:

1) The big comeback
2) Austin just gets better and better
3) Seth is back
4) We have our point guard (hope Quinn's knee is OK)

Here's the question - what's up with Miami not putting anyone on the blocks when they shoot free throws?

dyedwab
02-05-2012, 09:59 PM
The talent is there it's just a matter of bringing it for F O R T Y M I N U T E S!

To me, this is the key point, and, it seems to me, why we haven't seen radical strategic changes in what we do on both ends of the floor. The plays extremely well for sustained period of time - but those stretches aren't long enough and haven't happened late in games. But those stretches are tantalizing, and show what our ceiling is...but can we reach it?

AsiaMinor
02-05-2012, 10:01 PM
A fan of a team is a fan of a team, come rain or come shine.
(Insert sax music here).
You can get frustrated, but to say you wouldn't wear the colors is downright shameful.

Newton_14
02-05-2012, 10:06 PM
Johnson wasn't taunting an opposing teams player ( he wasn't in anyone's face ) nor did he say a word...... his little pose was not the same thing as running your mouth at another player.... at least that's what I think.

Nice try. It was taunting (does not have to be directed at a player) and he should have been T'd up. Gerald Henderson got a T at Vatech for simply screaming after a dunk. (Wasn't in anyone's face) nor did he say a word.

He got rang up. Johnson should have as well.

FerryFor50
02-05-2012, 10:14 PM
Most recently, Andre got T'ed up for taunting an opposing player after the refs and Coach K on two previous occasions had told him to tone it down and not talk to the other players.
Whereas, it seems like Reggie's was more of a general outburst, not directed at anyone in particular.

And come on, you can't be blaming the refs after today's atrocious defense and overall lack of focus.

Where did I say the refs cost us the game? I pretty consistently said it was missed fts...

hq2
02-05-2012, 10:19 PM
Today, though, was too reminiscent of the McBob/Paulus team in 2007.

Yeah, this year feels a lot like that one. They lost some top quality players from the year before
and couldn't really quite get it together. That team started 18-3 too, and proceeded to basically collapse
down the stretch. I could see this team doing it too; they've got some tough games ahead, they're not
playing all that great, and no one is really stepping up to lead the team. Could be multiple Ls and a low
NCAA seed ahead. Could be a tough February.

Dukehky
02-05-2012, 10:20 PM
I don't think we've needed a win like we do on Wednesday in a while. Carolina's comin too, which doesn't exactly bode well for us. Miles and Mason need to bang Zeller and Henson around hard in the first 3 minutes to get them scared like they were in the tourny last year.

Who was that number 35 character for Miami who seemed to go 5-6 from three? Oh hey Ryan, lets keep hedging 40 feet out and leaving this hombre wide open. I hate the hedge that far out, it does nothing but get us out of position. Just go under the dag nabbed screen.

#1Duke
02-05-2012, 10:29 PM
Nice try. It was taunting (does not have to be directed at a player) and he should have been T'd up. Gerald Henderson got a T at Vatech for simply screaming after a dunk. (Wasn't in anyone's face) nor did he say a word.

He got rang up. Johnson should have as well.

It wasn't a "try", just an attempt at an explantation. While Henderson got the T, it USUALLY isn't called for yelling and mugging after a dunk. Much more often than not, it is ignored and no call is made.
Ya really have to go back THAT far for an example?? Of all the problems we exhibited in this game, that "no call" shouldn't even be on the radar.

gofurman
02-05-2012, 10:34 PM
Yeah, this year feels a lot like that one. They lost some top quality players from the year before
and couldn't really quite get it together. That team started 18-3 too, and proceeded to basically collapse
down the stretch. I could see this team doing it too; they've got some tough games ahead, they're not
playing all that great, and no one is really stepping up to lead the team. Could be multiple Ls and a low
NCAA seed ahead. Could be a tough February.

Nope - Ill go on record saying this team is better than that. That team went out in first round to maynor and VCU. THis team will get out of the first weekend and will not collapse. I dont think they will win Wednesday but what I see of Austin and Mason (generally) and others leads me to believe this team has a shot. I think 11-5 is minimum in ACC and at least get to 2nd weekend in march. A lot rides on Q keeping on improving at the point and even more rides on the team wanting to play D for 40 minutes. Bear in mind this is like UNC at MD the other day - trap game pre UNC... UNC finally turned it on late at collegpark, they just hadnt gotten in quite as big a hole. Hard for D or UNC to play 40 great minutes when lookin' ahead

Play D. If this team can do that they are far better than 07. 07 was freshman scheyer, thomas and zoubs. this team has more "upperclassmen" in curry, mason, dawkins, etc and austin doesn't look like a FR. he is impressive and gettin' better

RockyMtDevil
02-05-2012, 10:46 PM
18-3, 19-3 and the wheels on the bus came completely off.

Talent wise, this shouldn't happen again, but mental wise I could see it happen easily. We are not mentally strong and we don't have a floor general who will rally the troops and will them to win. Austin may become that player next year, but Seth, Mason and Miles just don't have it in them to be leaders. To sum up all the frustration on this team, it is leadership, or a lake thereof. K can only do so much, and then he has to rely on his men to be men, and so far his men have been boys. If you break down this team individual by individual, you'll find a huge lack of leadership at almost every person.

Let's look at the Obvious choices:
Seth: upperclassmen, starter, etc..: but, he's quiet, not vocal at all, doesn't command respect
Mason: ditto: To me, this has been the most frustrating aspect of Mason's development, his lack of ability to lead. He has the physical tools and the moxy but for whatever reason, that hasn't translated into him busting balls and getting guys to follow him.
Miles: well, whatever
Austin: Maybe the only hope at this point, but he is so young and has yet to step into that roll

Others:
Thornton: Probably the only real hope of leadership we have, but he is limited physically and probably shouldn't start. Great glue guy but you can't lead with a glue guy
Dawkins: I don't get this kid. Is it mental? What is missing? i don't see leadership at all
Kelly: Next. Ryan is a great kid, but he doesn't command a presence and demand respect. He's a follower and that is ok, but we need a leader on the court.

If you take our roster person by person, we've yet to establish a leader and it is killing us. Someone who enters the huddle down 10 against an inferior Miami team at home and says, "this crap ends now. We are better, we are at home and we are going to bury these guys." We don't have THAT GUY.

And it makes me sad...

DUKIE V(A)
02-05-2012, 10:57 PM
I've never been more disappointed in a Duke team than I am today. I don't know that anyone knows what to say, it's sad but this team just doesn't have it. I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid. The chemistry, defense, communication and heart are all but gone on this team, if it ever existed...

Done. I can't believe we allowed a Miami team to come in and absolutely embarres us on our home court. Wow.


RockyMtTiger? Is that you? :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOE9S1K5hc4

Giving up on your team because of a poorly played half and 6 missed free throws?! AHHHHHHHHH, See ya!

RockyMtDevil
02-05-2012, 11:21 PM
I'm not wearing my Duke stuff this week because of pride, not because I've given up on the team. When I put on a Duke T-shirt, it stands for something. From a pure basketball perspective, the brand is integrity, toughness, heart, passion, intensity, excellence, purity, talent and sustainability. This team has yet to show these brand dimensions and therefore I don't feel confidant wearing the colors because we aren't living up to our brand promise.

We are Duke. And that means something. I'll not wear a shirt if the brand has changed to mean half-hearted, no passion, disinterested, unengaged and entitled. We aren't entitled to anything, except to take everyone's best shot and respond with excellence. That is the duty and responsibility of every Duke team, to own knowing you will receive each team's best game of the season. That's a high honor and one to be cherished.

Until this roster chages its brand, the shirts stay in the closet. I'm not a proud fan today, I am mind-blown that anyone could be.

Kedsy
02-05-2012, 11:43 PM
I was proud of the way we came back today. I really liked our second half defense.


Down 16 to an unranked team on your homecourt? That's worse than UNC-FSU. At least FSU was ranked and it was AT FSU.

Except FSU wasn't ranked and they blew UNC out by 33. How is losing to a pretty good Miami team in OT worse than that?


Why be nervous? It's pretty much a guaranteed loss at this point.

I wasn't going to respond to this because it's such a ridiculous statement, but I can't help myself: Are you serious?


I don't think there is any question that this team's post season success is going to be predicated by Cook's ability to step up and play good strong minutes at the PG (much like Marshall for UNC last year).

I think there's plenty of question about this. In my opinion, this team's post-season success will be entirely predicated on how well we play defense and whether we bring the intensity for the entire game.


I'm not a proud fan today, I am mind-blown that anyone could be.

I'm always proud of my team. And I'm mind-blown that anyone could say stuff like you've been saying in this thread. Does being so negative help you feel better? Speaking only for myself, I don't care whether you wear your Duke gear or not.

brumby041
02-06-2012, 12:21 AM
Most recently, Andre got T'ed up for taunting an opposing player after the refs and Coach K on two previous occasions had told him to tone it down and not talk to the other players.
Whereas, it seems like Reggie's was more of a general outburst, not directed at anyone in particular.

And come on, you can't be blaming the refs after today's atrocious defense and overall lack of focus.

I'm not blaming the refs for the loss - the team took care of that part.

What I'm doing is hating on Karl Hess. His inconsistency and bias make him a disgrace to the profession.

What are the chances that we go 3-in-a-row and get him for the UNC (9F!) game as well?

Kewlswim
02-06-2012, 12:37 AM
Hi,

I think the team thought it would win this game because they were playing at home and have the words "Duke" written across their chests. Buildings and jerseys don't win, it is the people inside the jerseys and how they play that win games. Duke does not beat Miami just because it is Duke playing Miami.

I feel the team might have been thinking ahead to Wednesday.

A loss here or there in regular season, if the team learns something from it, is not that big a deal. Would you rather the lesson that a motivated team can beat Duke on any given night if the team isn't playing for 40 minutes be learned today or in March?

Congratulations to the Miami Hurricanes. I hope this gets you into the NCAA tournament.

As for Duke, I am not going to give up on them. I still think we can win on Wednesday. I am not giving up on my team...EVER.

GO DUKE!

UrinalCake
02-06-2012, 12:40 AM
I haven't watched today's game yet, but I will make a general comment on T's... there's a whole lot that is said on the court between the refs, coaches, and players that we as fans aren't privy to. I remember a game in Cameron against Maryland circa 1997 where right before tipoff the refs told the captains of both teams that profanity wouldn't be tolerated at all (this is what was reported to the media after the game). Somehow the Maryland players didn't hear the message, and three different players picked up T's in the first ten minutes of play. Gary managed to pick up two himself and get tossed. Under normal circumstances these technicals would be completely unmerited, but the refs gave fair warning before they happened.

That's essentially what happened to Andre last game. Two plays prior there was a gathering of bodies under the basket and the refs told everyone to cool it. Then Andre makes a great defensive play and starts woofing - not directed at anyone, but still pretty demonstrative. You can see Coach K telling him to tone it down. Then he hits a three and keeps on going, I mean the refs have no choice but to T him up.

So Reggie Johnson flexes his muscles, yeah that's a form of taunting but is it any worse than Dahntay Jones doing pushups or Gerald Henderson's reaction after his monster slam against Maryland in that game where Nolan got knocked out? For all we know the refs warned Johnson after his display. But regardless, like others have said if we're concerned about his taunting then we need to worry about not letting him go all beast mode on us in the first place.

tommy
02-06-2012, 01:48 AM
I've never been more disappointed in a Duke team than I am today. I don't know that anyone knows what to say, it's sad but this team just doesn't have it. I'm normally proud to wear by duke gear after any loss, but not today my friends, and maybe not at all the rest of the season. Put it away until next year I am afraid. The chemistry, defense, communication and heart are all but gone on this team, if it ever existed...

Done. I can't believe we allowed a Miami team to come in and absolutely embarres us on our home court. Wow.

So then I guess there's no reason for you to watch on Wednesday then, right? You know, because you're "done."

tommy
02-06-2012, 01:54 AM
A couple of posters have mentioned how this is a particularly difficult team for Coach K to figure out, hard to motivate consistently, tough to tell how the pieces fit together. I agree with all of that.

He also seems to be extremely frustrated. Maybe I'm not remembering, but I don't recall any previous seasons in which he has called his guys out as frequently as he has this year in press conferences or post-games. I don't remember nearly this much in-your-face yelling and screaming during timeouts.

But then in today's game, on more than one occasion in the first half when Miami was just taking it to us, I saw something on K's face that bothered me far more. I saw something that looked like resignation. Something as if he was saying "I don't know what else I can do with you people. I don't have any more answers. You guys just don't want it enough, you don't want to fight for this thing, and I can't make you want it. There's nothing more for me to say."

I sure hope I'm wrong, but that's what I thought I detected.

CameronDuke
02-06-2012, 06:02 AM
I've never seen a team intentional run down the clock to keep the opponent from having the last posession when trailing. The object is to get a good shot as quickly as possible. What would you think if they dribbled around at half court until the 10 second mark and then didn't get a decent shot off?

Really? I have. VCU actually beat us doing this in 2007. Eric Maynor waited until about 3 seconds were left to hit a game winning jumper on us an eliminate us in the first round.

CameronBornAndBred
02-06-2012, 06:04 AM
I'm suprised that so many people are happy with Austin's play. In the game I watched, I saw a player who was determined to put the game on his back with little effect. Austin needs to learn there are 4 other people on the court. He got so predictable by game's end yesterday that every time he touched the ball my girlfriend and I yelled "Noooooooo"! The one time he did pass, Mason wasn't expecting it. Nobody else in Cameron was either.
I might have a different attitude about him if he actually made his free throws, but I doubt it. I'm not saying all of his drives were bad ideas, but often he had another teammate with a better look. (One that stands out is a missed layup when he had Mason trailing behind for an easy dunk.) He still has a lot to learn about playing with a team. This is no longer his HS in Florida, and he is no longer the best player on the floor. He is ONE of the best. We are not playing as a team right now, and his play is an example why. Luckily, there is still some time to figure things out, but it's awfully late in the season.

DukieInBrasil
02-06-2012, 06:31 AM
I'm suprised that so many people are happy with Austin's play. In the game I watched, I saw a player who was determined to put the game on his back with little effect. Austin needs to learn there are 4 other people on the court. He got so predictable by game's end yesterday that every time he touched the ball my girlfriend and I yelled "Noooooooo"! The one time he did pass, Mason wasn't expecting it. Nobody else in Cameron was either.
I might have a different attitude about him if he actually made his free throws, but I doubt it. I'm not saying all of his drives were bad ideas, but often he had another teammate with a better look. (One that stands out is a missed layup when he had Mason trailing behind for an easy dunk.) He still has a lot to learn about playing with a team. This is no longer his HS in Florida, and he is no longer the best player on the floor. He is ONE of the best. We are not playing as a team right now, and his play is an example why. Luckily, there is still some time to figure things out, but it's awfully late in the season.
Well, Mason not being ready for the pass is all on Mason, not AR. however, it was probably set up by the following bolded part. I was also pissed on that play, we had a 3 on 1 and AR took it to the rim when he could have dumped it back to Mason for an energy and confidence building dunk. But rather than thinking about the team, AR thought about himself. He ended up missing one of those FTs, which came back to bite us in the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.. For someone whose game is so dependent on driving into the lane to score, his FT% is a serious flaw in his game. He needs to be shooting above 75%, but is instead closer to 65%. He's almost in Hack-a-Rivers territory.

Reilly
02-06-2012, 06:40 AM
.... He also seems to be extremely frustrated. .... I saw something on K's face ... something that looked like resignation. ... that's what I thought I detected.

It was an interesting look, for sure. Frustration, to be sure. I thought I saw K struggling with what to do next: just go explode in the locker room, or take his foot off the gas and ease up and try some different tactic. Not so much resignation, but almost confusion in a way. And for a coach who knows 99% of the time what buttons to push, that must be doubly frustrating. K doesn't quit or resign, but this is frustrating and then some.

MCFinARL
02-06-2012, 07:23 AM
I'm suprised that so many people are happy with Austin's play. In the game I watched, I saw a player who was determined to put the game on his back with little effect. Austin needs to learn there are 4 other people on the court. He got so predictable by game's end yesterday that every time he touched the ball my girlfriend and I yelled "Noooooooo"! The one time he did pass, Mason wasn't expecting it. Nobody else in Cameron was either.
I might have a different attitude about him if he actually made his free throws, but I doubt it. I'm not saying all of his drives were bad ideas, but often he had another teammate with a better look. (One that stands out is a missed layup when he had Mason trailing behind for an easy dunk.) He still has a lot to learn about playing with a team. This is no longer his HS in Florida, and he is no longer the best player on the floor. He is ONE of the best. We are not playing as a team right now, and his play is an example why. Luckily, there is still some time to figure things out, but it's awfully late in the season.

Well, I think people give a nod to Austin here because the effort and desire were more visible in him than in some of the other players yesterday. Granted, he still needs to work on his decision making, and there were a couple of obvious passing opportunities that he missed. But in fairness, a lot of other options weren't working all that well yesterday. Passes to the open outside shooters mostly resulted in missed shots; passes into Mason often resulted in turnovers or missed hook shots.

Your post points out something, though, that seemed painfully obvious yesterday, going beyond just Austin--for long stretches there wasn't much sense of a team out there. These players often don't seem to know each other's moves and tendencies well enough--they throw passes that the recipients aren't expecting (or don't cut to at all, as with one of Andre's early pass/turnovers yesterday), they mis-time alley oops, they miss defensive rotations, they don't get into a smooth flow, they get stuck in awkward places with the ball and teammates not coming to help them out fast enough. Obviously, there are times when this isn't the case--when they both work hard and all seem to be on the same page. But sometimes, even though the effort seems to be there, the confidence and coordination that come from really knowing each other without having to think about it don't seem to be there. This might be "chemistry," it might be "leadership," it might just be the bad luck of a lot of talented parts that don't really fit together into a whole, or that have some pieces missing that they can't quite overcome. But I suspect it is at least as dismaying to them as it is to us (probably much more).

I'm not disappointed in this team. But I am disappointed for them, because I suspect they are as puzzled and frustrated as Coach K seems to be.

tbyers11
02-06-2012, 07:31 AM
I'm not wearing my Duke stuff this week because of pride, not because I've given up on the team. When I put on a Duke T-shirt, it stands for something. From a pure basketball perspective, the brand is integrity, toughness, heart, passion, intensity, excellence, purity, talent and sustainability. This team has yet to show these brand dimensions and therefore I don't feel confidant wearing the colors because we aren't living up to our brand promise.

We are Duke. And that means something. I'll not wear a shirt if the brand has changed to mean half-hearted, no passion, disinterested, unengaged and entitled. We aren't entitled to anything, except to take everyone's best shot and respond with excellence. That is the duty and responsibility of every Duke team, to own knowing you will receive each team's best game of the season. That's a high honor and one to be cherished.

Until this roster chages its brand, the shirts stay in the closet. I'm not a proud fan today, I am mind-blown that anyone could be.

This is the definition of fair-weather fandom. Your team should be your team through thick and thin. I disagree with you that this team doesn't show passion or intensity. They certainly did in the last 16 minutes. The play in the 2nd half shows me that this team wants to win. Their play in the first half shows me that they don't understand the consistent intensity and aggressiveness that is required to do so. I, along with everyone else, am perplexed as to why this is but this is an issue of execution not effort.

Now, I am not happy with the result or the execution for most of the game but I am still a proud fan because of the effort and am disappointed that anyone could not be.

lotusland
02-06-2012, 07:34 AM
Really? I have. VCU actually beat us doing this in 2007. Eric Maynor waited until about 3 seconds were left to hit a game winning jumper on us an eliminate us in the first round.

Yeah really. The score was tied in that game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCphWpDnAcU

Obviously when OT is secured you don't give the the opponent another shot to win it. Totally differenty story when you are trailing even if just by a point.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-06-2012, 07:57 AM
Yeah really. The score was tied in that game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCphWpDnAcU

Obviously when OT is secured you don't give the the opponent another shot to win it. Totally differenty story when you are trailing even if just by a point.

Clearly there are lots of way to manage different end of game situations. See: end of Duke-Butler game... no small debate about that one.

I have no problem with us being down 1 and taking the last shot. It's a gutsy call. But I was shocked at how it unfolded - ball in the hands of an inexperienced freshman who played the possession exactly that way. I would much rather have seen AR with the ball again - or Seth. And knowing they would likely be clogging the lane, it would have been nice to see Dre in the game and increase our perimeter options (I don't think he was in at that point). Some here are beating on AR and I don't get it. Yeah he messes up sometimes, but he's getting it right more frequently than he was earlier in the season. I just don't understand why K let Cook have the game in his hands in that situation. We had 2 timeouts and more than 20 seconds left if I recall correctly. It's not like we were trying to catch Miami off guard or anything. They had plenty of time to set their defense either way. So I see no reason we didn't use a timeout to get set up and call exactly the play we wanted. We had options. But IMO (and all free throw discussion aside) we didn't execute well - either on or off the floor - in that last possession.

CameronBornAndBred
02-06-2012, 08:08 AM
Clearly there are lots of way to manage different end of game situations. See: end of Duke-Butler game... no small debate about that one.

I have no problem with us being down 1 and taking the last shot. It's a gutsy call. But I was shocked at how it unfolded - ball in the hands of an inexperienced freshman who played the possession exactly that way. I would much rather have seen AR with the ball again - or Seth. And knowing they would likely be clogging the lane, it would have been nice to see Dre in the game and increase our perimeter options (I don't think he was in at that point). Some here are beating on AR and I don't get it. Yeah he messes up sometimes, but he's getting it right more frequently than he was earlier in the season. I just don't understand why K let Cook have the game in his hands in that situation. We had 2 timeouts and more than 20 seconds left if I recall correctly. It's not like we were trying to catch Miami off guard or anything. They had plenty of time to set their defense either way. So I see no reason we didn't use a timeout to get set up and call exactly the play we wanted. We had options. But IMO (and all free throw discussion aside) we didn't execute well - either on or off the floor - in that last possession.
I thought it was very interesting that Chris Collins drew the end of game play up, not Coach K. K sat back and watched in the huddle.

dukeENG2003
02-06-2012, 08:15 AM
Why are people freaking out so bad about this loss?

We played a half of bad basketball, and about another 5 minutes after that.

We then played ~20 minutes of tough, hard fought basketball, and some of the best on ball defense I've seen from this team. Frankly, I'm encouraged going into UNC, if we play like we finished that game out (free throws aside of course) I like our chances.

I want to slap the next person I hear criticize Austin Rivers. He played GREAT. Offensively, he carried us, because he had to. The 3 on 1 where he chose to take it to the rim, he did that b/c a pass to Mason is a guaranteed foul. With the weak way he was taking it to the rim, it might have been a walk. Austin almost finished the play as it was for 3. He is our best player, and in crunch time, coach wanted the ball in his hands (if you watched coach, he was yelilng at Austin for not coming to get the ball down the stretch). The box score shows zero assists, but I counted at least 3 where we either missed the kick out 3 off his pass or our bigs fumbled a pass they should have caught. And a guard getting NINE rebounds? Our bigs let us down bigtime on the glass, and he picked it up. Coach Capel has stressed that to him, and he is clearly listening.

Defensively, he LOCKED DOWN Durand Scott (3-12 on FG), who is a great 1 on 1 player . He did all this with NO REST (check the box score, he played 43 minutes). From a freshman, that is a man's performance.

To me, the most disappointing performance was Mason. He got owned by Johnson. He played terrible defense on him, and made soft moves inside against him. There was a reason Miles was in the game in crunch time. Andre also had a terrible game defensively. But all is not lost, I like our chances against the 'holes. Next play, GTHC ES!

brumby041
02-06-2012, 08:21 AM
To me, the most disappointing performance was Mason. He got owned by Johnson. He played terrible defense on him, and made soft moves inside against him. There was a reason Miles was in the game in crunch time. Andre also had a terrible game defensively. But all is not lost, I like our chances against the 'holes. Next play, GTHC ES!

Dykes (announcer) mentioned several times during the game that Mason listed R Johnson as the toughest guy to play against in the league. Seemed to me that Johnson was in Mason's head all game. (I thought, for example, that Miles did a better job on Johnson defensively - which I wouldn't have expected.)

allenmurray
02-06-2012, 08:24 AM
The 3 on 1 where he chose to take it to the rim, he did that b/c a pass to Mason is a guaranteed foul.

In his last four games Mason has been 14 for 18 from the free throw line (77%). Rivers has been 8 for 14 (57%). Mason going to the line is a better bet than Austin going to the line.

Zeke
02-06-2012, 08:37 AM
I Think that our team gave it all that they had at that time. Some days it just isn't there. I've seen them in some years get tired and run out of gas late in the seaso but that is not happening yet this year.They just woke up in the morning and it wasn't there. It is a coaches fault if a team comes out sluggish and he can't turn them around. The traditional way is to switch to a full court press and fast break to get them moving. Although they didn't use much full court press yesterday they did go to a trap in the 2nd half and it worked in spades. Why didn't they go to it earlier? You just don't throw you team under the bus, just as you don't throw the students under the bus. Lead by example. This is a team loss and that includes the coaches.

Lid
02-06-2012, 08:44 AM
I thought, for example, that Miles did a better job on Johnson defensively - which I wouldn't have expected.
Agree. My husband was calling for more Miles early in the game, and he was right -- I thought he was a huge part of the defensive difference in the second half. He did a much better job setting up to stop Johnson down low than anyone else did.

BlueDevilCorvette!
02-06-2012, 08:44 AM
I wish I knew how Silent G was performing in practice. Coming out of high school he was considered a smart, athletic and crafty player. I'd like to see him play (at least some) but for whatever reason he is stuck on the bench. Folks are constantly saying Duke is too slow, too small, too unathletic but IMHO Silent G could possibly be the answer (just speculation). I don't feel he could do any worse defensively than what some players are already doing but then again he just might surprise us all.

lotusland
02-06-2012, 08:46 AM
I want to slap the next person I hear criticize Austin Rivers. He played GREAT. Offensively, he carried us, because he had to. The 3 on 1 where he chose to take it to the rim, he did that b/c a pass to Mason is a guaranteed foul. With the weak way he was taking it to the rim, it might have been a walk. Austin almost finished the play as it was for 3. He is our best player, and in crunch time, coach wanted the ball in his hands (if you watched coach, he was yelilng at Austin for not coming to get the ball down the stretch). The box score shows zero assists, but I counted at least 3 where we either missed the kick out 3 off his pass or our bigs fumbled a pass they should have caught. And a guard getting NINE rebounds? Our bigs let us down bigtime on the glass, and he picked it up. Coach Capel has stressed that to him, and he is clearly listening.

Defensively, he LOCKED DOWN Durand Scott (3-12 on FG), who is a great 1 on 1 player . He did all this with NO REST (check the box score, he played 43 minutes). From a freshman, that is a man's performance.



YES! Seems like some folks can't be pleased. He's always in attack mode on offense so occasionally he takes a bad three or tries to get to the rack when nothing is there. Actually he takes a lot of "bad" threes and out of control drives but the only problem with that statement is that he makes so many of them. You gotta accept a few bricks and forced plays to get the points. Otherwise we are just passing the ball around the perimeter. There's plenty of room for improvement in his game but he's already become a defensive stopper and I'm reaklly enjoying watching this kid play. He is the most ferocious player Duke has had since Laettner IMO.

NSDukeFan
02-06-2012, 08:47 AM
Things would have been a lot simpler if Miami had done the right thing and come into Cameron, been intimidated and laid down so that Duke could get the W. They had another chance in OT to realize they had put up a good fight, but it was Duke's great comeback victory. Did they not read the script?

I guess this Duke team is going to have to learn to play with more intensity, more consistently.

devildeac
02-06-2012, 08:51 AM
Dykes (announcer) mentioned several times during the game that Mason listed R Johnson as the toughest guy to play against in the league. Seemed to me that Johnson was in Mason's head all game. (I thought, for example, that Miles did a better job on Johnson defensively - which I wouldn't have expected.)

Also looks like we changed our approach and had Miles front him several times to try and prevent the entry pass. Like Jim Sumner said in his Home Page write-up that it's not a foul unless it's called. I would have liked to see a couple elbows/forearms/shoulders called as offensive fouls as he bulled his way into the lane.

Devilsfan
02-06-2012, 08:59 AM
I was proud to see the comeback staged in the second half. Now I hope Duke does the right thing and refunds half the price of admission since we only play less than a half of a game. Haha.

Albert
02-06-2012, 09:00 AM
Things would have been a lot simpler if Miami had done the right thing and come into Cameron, been intimidated and laid down so that Duke could get the W. They had another chance in OT to realize they had put up a good fight, but it was Duke's great comeback victory. Did they not read the script?

I guess this Duke team is going to have to learn to play with more intensity, more consistently.

I guess we should count our blessings that we didn't get the "[insert visiting team] is not backing down" mantra, although we got numerous references to freshman Larkin not being intimidated by the stage, which was OK with me, anyway. How would a team "back down?" Not try? Even if they're getting blown out, the other team usually tries, right?

Not hanging the loss on officiating (hanging it on free throws), but I thought we got consistently hosed. Ryan was fouled on that drive to the rim at the end of regulation. That might have been the game there.

Anyway, nuff respect to Miami -- they played a great game. Count me among those that don't feel all that badly about this one.

BlueDevilCorvette!
02-06-2012, 09:03 AM
Seems like every team plays zone against Duke. Why doesn't Duke play zone more especially since we currently have so many defensive weaknesses?

stixof96
02-06-2012, 09:07 AM
This is the first Duke team that I have ever seen that lacks committment. They play as if their mother is the coach and she will still love them no matter how bad they play. Miami started playing horribly and that is the only reason for the come back. I look for a slaughter on Wednesday hight. These children need to grow up and start leaving some pain on that floor.

Duvall
02-06-2012, 09:22 AM
This is the first Duke team that I have ever seen that lacks committment.

What a strange complaint. What does this even mean?

ChicagoHeel
02-06-2012, 09:38 AM
I only saw the second half, but my sense is that had this game turned out differently, it could have been a momentum builder/ wake-up call that would have served you well going into Wednesday's game. A lot of things went right in the second half- the D was alive and active, Curry found his stroke, Rivers was aggressive, and overall the team fought hard. You came back from 16 down against a solid team even with some of your shooters (esp. Kelly) missing shots they normally make. But the comeback probably took too much out of you, you relaxed during OT thinking UM would fold, and the rest is history. Even though all that good stuff happened in the second half, the outcome over-shadows it.

So the question is what does it do to the team going forward? Does it undermine confidence and chemistry? Possibly. I think this loss does make the first 5-10 minutes of Wednesday's game that much more important- if you fall behind, you really may lose whatever mental edge remains. It is also possible that the team realizes at a much deeper level that it needs to play with the energy displayed in the final 15 minutes of the game and your D is sharper against us. We'll see soon.

rtnorthrup
02-06-2012, 10:25 AM
A lot of emotional, knee-jerk reactions on this board again. I have only seen a handful of people actually give any credit to Miami, and even seen some posters go so far as to call Miami a bad basketball team. That is laughable. They have two legitimate ACC post players and Larkin gives them another dimension on the perimeter. They came in with poise and a game plan and executed flawlessly the first 20 minutes. They made shots, the passed the ball, they defended and most importantly they busted their behinds on the offensive glass. You can say that we didnt play with enough effort in the first half, but you also have to give Miami credit. Where we were weak, they took advantage. Now that they are at full strength, Miami will give teams fits the remainder of the way. Larranaga is a tough coach, and I don't think ours will be the last scalp they get this year. Add in the fact that Miami has played us tough the last few years, and yesterday was really not that surprising.

This is an awkward team at the moment. The first one in many years that the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. Austin Rivers is a terrific ballhandler, who can get to the rim as well as anyone, but he doesnt exactly create shots for other teammates on a consistant basis. Mason is a terrific post player, his Player of the week award was not an accident, but he isnt overly physical and has trouble against players like Johnson and Sullinger. Dawkins and Curry are excellent scorers, but both are streaky and have trouble creating their own shots. Kelly has a good shooting touch, but can be a matchup problem for us on the defensive end. What is odd, is that they have not learned to gel. They may not ever get there, but this is certainly a talented basketball team. The second half yesterday showed that.

Remember, these are still the same players who beat Michigan State, Tenn, Michigan and Kansas. And they are the same team that struggled to put away Belmont in Cameron. The same team that struggled against Ga Tech at times.

It's easier if you accept what we are, meaning we are going to have really good games, and some really tough games against mid-level opponents. This is a good basketball team, not a great one, but they still deserve support. Yes, we may lose in the secound round of the NCAA tourney, go ahead and accept that. But take a look at any Bracketology right now, and you wont see a lot of teams that we can't beat either. This was always UNC's conference to lose this year. Don't put expectations on Duke this year and you will enjoy the season a lot more, and this team just may surprise you down the road.

dukeballboy88
02-06-2012, 10:31 AM
Im was upset after the game but I went and watched it back during the Super Bowl, (my team got Tebowed and I couldnt watch any more football after that) I saw some things that made excited about going to the snooze dome this week.

First of all, Seth looks like he may have his jumper and his swag back heading into face a team he smoked last year, so thats good.

Austin is a game changer. He plays with intensity and passion and a love for the game that I wished everyone would display. Im so glad we have him because he can carry us the rest of the way and I look for him to be amped come wed. He gets murdered on several drives and doesnt get the call. If he played for UNC he would have Handsburrys numbers from the line like 16 attempts a game.

Quin brings a lil swag and a different speed to the game than anyone else we play at the point. From here on out he should start and play the most minutes at the point if he is ok. I know he looked turbl on that play at the end of the game but the game would not have been close if he didnt amp up the engergy. I like us more when he is in.

Ryan is shooting it with more confidence from 3 than I have seen him before. It may not go in but at least he isnt double clutching and looking un sure of hisself. He is catching and shooting like he is JJ and that to me is a good sign. He is a good shooter and eventually he will be knocking down 4 3's game.

0-6 from the line in ot is bad. I will say some people have that clutch gene and some dont. I dont think our players have it right now but I will say Austin will get it. He wants the ball with the game on the line and he doesnt settle for a long j like Lebron James does to avoid the pressure. Now he just needs to knock the clutch free throws down.

killerleft
02-06-2012, 10:32 AM
You mean missing 6 FTs in a row didn't tick you off?

Especially considering this guy can hit them at a record clip?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=718ldCsCECk

If you get ticked off when college players who are making their best effort miss free throws, then maybe you should watch sundowns instead. I assume that means you get mad.

I hated to see those free throws miss, I was disappointed (for both the player shooting and for all of us Duke fans), but conjuring up anger just doesn't compute. If a player ever WILLFULLY does something that costs us, THEN I will get mad.

Frustration, now that's a word and a feeling I am most familiar with!:o

For the record, I thought the free throw misses could be attributed to a bit of exhaustion, caused by the enormous energy we expended during the comeback. We played badly, made a great comeback against a good team, but ran out of gas. The last two minutes of regulation was when this began to really show. We made some bad decisions that kept us from winning in regulation, and we were just not there mentally in overtime.

mike88
02-06-2012, 10:36 AM
A lot of emotional, knee-jerk reactions on this board again. I have only seen a handful of people actually give any credit to Miami, and even seen some posters go so far as to call Miami a bad basketball team. That is laughable. They have two legitimate ACC post players and Larkin gives them another dimension on the perimeter. They came in with poise and a game plan and executed flawlessly the first 20 minutes. They made shots, the passed the ball, they defended and most importantly they busted their behinds on the offensive glass. You can say that we didnt play with enough effort in the first half, but you also have to give Miami credit. Where we were weak, they took advantage. Now that they are at full strength, Miami will give teams fits the remainder of the way. Larranaga is a tough coach, and I don't think ours will be the last scalp they get this year. Add in the fact that Miami has played us tough the last few years, and yesterday was really not that surprising.

This is an awkward team at the moment. The first one in many years that the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts. Austin Rivers is a terrific ballhandler, who can get to the rim as well as anyone, but he doesnt exactly create shots for other teammates on a consistant basis. Mason is a terrific post player, his Player of the week award was not an accident, but he isnt overly physical and has trouble against players like Johnson and Sullinger. Dawkins and Curry are excellent scorers, but both are streaky and have trouble creating their own shots. Kelly has a good shooting touch, but can be a matchup problem for us on the defensive end. What is odd, is that they have not learned to gel. They may not ever get there, but this is certainly a talented basketball team. The second half yesterday showed that.

Remember, these are still the same players who beat Michigan State, Tenn, Michigan and Kansas. And they are the same team that struggled to put away Belmont in Cameron. The same team that struggled against Ga Tech at times.

It's easier if you accept what we are, meaning we are going to have really good games, and some really tough games against mid-level opponents. This is a good basketball team, not a great one, but they still deserve support. Yes, we may lose in the secound round of the NCAA tourney, go ahead and accept that. But take a look at any Bracketology right now, and you wont see a lot of teams that we can't beat either. This was always UNC's conference to lose this year. Don't put expectations on Duke this year and you will enjoy the season a lot more, and this team just may surprise you down the road.

This is spot-on. If you are feeling frustrated today, that's understandable, but improvement is not linear- it comes in "starts and stops" - and we still have a lot of regular season to go. I am really interested to see how K manages the team going forward- in some senses, it feels to me like we are just waiting for Quinn and Austin to get experience. Once they get to the point where they can play up to their true talent levels consistently, then I think we have enough other pieces (front court depth, other shooters) to make a good run in March. But I don't see us going far in March (or winning a lot in February) unless we play better and more consistently on defense, and that is going to require a full team effort.

FerryFor50
02-06-2012, 10:46 AM
If you get ticked off when college players who are making their best effort miss free throws, then maybe you should watch sundowns instead. I assume that means you get mad.

I hated to see those free throws miss, I was disappointed (for both the player shooting and for all of us Duke fans), but conjuring up anger just doesn't compute. If a player ever WILLFULLY does something that costs us, THEN I will get mad.

Frustration, now that's a word and a feeling I am most familiar with!:o

For the record, I thought the free throw misses could be attributed to a bit of exhaustion, caused by the enormous energy we expended during the comeback. We played badly, made a great comeback against a good team, but ran out of gas. The last two minutes of regulation was when this began to really show. We made some bad decisions that kept us from winning in regulation, and we were just not there mentally in overtime.

I never question the effort. To me, I look at it this way...

*I* could hit 70-80% of my free throws and I am not a D1 college player at a major university. I'm not even DIII grade.

Players that shoot well everywhere but the FT line amaze me. Was fatigue involved? Maybe. But I doubt it.... I think it was nerves.

sagegrouse
02-06-2012, 10:49 AM
If you get ticked off when college players who are making their best effort miss free throws, then maybe you should watch sundowns instead. I assume that means you get mad.

I hated to see those free throws miss, I was disappointed (for both the player shooting and for all of us Duke fans), but conjuring up anger just doesn't compute. If a player ever WILLFULLY does something that costs us, THEN I will get mad.

Frustration, now that's a word and a feeling I am most familiar with!:o

For the record, I thought the free throw misses could be attributed to a bit of exhaustion, caused by the enormous energy we expended during the comeback. We played badly, made a great comeback against a good team, but ran out of gas. The last two minutes of regulation was when this began to really show. We made some bad decisions that kept us from winning in regulation, and we were just not there mentally in overtime.

Here's the probability of these three players with FT percentages of 67%, 87%, and 78% all missing two FTs -- 0.000089, or fewer than one chance in ten thousand.

Of course, being good statisticians we recognize that there is an assumption of statistical independence, i.e., that one miss had no effect on the next shot (or the next), which seems like a poor assumption in these circumstances.

sagegrouse

kmspeaks
02-06-2012, 11:34 AM
Is it time for an "It's Over" thread?

Kedsy
02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Miami started playing horribly and that is the only reason for the come back.

This is funny. When Miami was beating us it was because we played poorly, not because they played well? And when we caught up it was because Miami "started playing horribly" and had nothing to do with us playing well? Good luck with your half-empty glass.


I look for a slaughter on Wednesday hight.

Yeah, because UNC has shown they never lose intensity when playing a team from Florida. Oh, wait...

Kewlswim
02-06-2012, 11:46 AM
Hi,

Maybe the Devils were looking ahead to Wednesday. I know people who follow the Devils weren't...we take it one game at a time, never looking ahead...it wouldn't be proper. :-p

GO DUKE!

Kewlswim
02-06-2012, 11:51 AM
Is it time for an "It's Over" thread?

A "Sky is Falling" thread. :)

GO DUKE!

DukieInBrasil
02-06-2012, 11:57 AM
First of all, Seth looks like he may have his jumper and his swag back heading into face a team he smoked last year, so thats good.
Totally agree, that's the best thing to take from the game.


Austin is a game changer. He plays with intensity and passion and a love for the game that I wished everyone would display. Im so glad we have him because he can carry us the rest of the way and I look for him to be amped come wed. He gets murdered on several drives and doesnt get the call. If he played for UNC he would have Handsburrys numbers from the line like 16 attempts a game.
again, agreed, but such is the life of a Fr.


0-6 from the line in ot is bad. I will say some people have that clutch gene and some dont. I dont think our players have it right now but I will say Austin will get it. He wants the ball with the game on the line and he doesnt settle for a long j like Lebron James does to avoid the pressure. Now he just needs to knock the clutch free throws down.
but he does do that on a regular basis throughout the game and in crucial moment-swing times, and often from 5ft beyond the NBA line. It is infuriating b/c it shows his selfishness more than his desire to help the team win. He needs to learn that good looks at 3 are usually the result of a good pass, not his preferred method of dribbling solo for 5 seconds and the hoisting up a long, long brick. Also his clutchness", or lack thereof, can be seen in his pressure-time FT shooting, which is bad, even though his FTs in general are weak for a prolific scorer. With his ability to get free at will and get to the rim, or just get open, he ought to be our go-to clutch-time player, but his decision-making ability in clutch time and throughout the game need to improve for him to be a quality CTPer. I think Austin has played a couple of inspiring games in a row, and that is a good thing, but his tendency to hoist up ill-timed long Js needs improvement.

ncexnyc
02-06-2012, 12:08 PM
I'm surprised by some of the comments that are being directed at Austin. Considering his background as the go to guy in high school, I think he's done an excellent job of trying to be a fully rounded team player. Yes, he still does make an ill advised play now and then, but please, he's only a freshman surrounded by upper classmen who can't or won't step-up like they should and provide this team with the leadership that is required. Don't fault the guy for attempting to fill a role others should be doing.

And as long as I'm ranting, I think it's pretty lame that we have to look towards Austin and Quinn to pull our proverbial fat out of the fire. That responsiblity should be falling on Andre, Ryan, and Seth.

allenmurray
02-06-2012, 12:15 PM
*I* could hit 70-80% of my free throws and I am not a D1 college player at a major university. I'm not even DIII grade.


Really? After playing in an incredibly physical game for 40+ minutes, and while on national television, you could hit 70 - 80% of your free throws. Wow!

Cell-R
02-06-2012, 12:33 PM
If you get ticked off when college players who are making their best effort miss free throws, then maybe you should watch sundowns instead. I assume that means you get mad.

I hated to see those free throws miss, I was disappointed (for both the player shooting and for all of us Duke fans), but conjuring up anger just doesn't compute. If a player ever WILLFULLY does something that costs us, THEN I will get mad.

Frustration, now that's a word and a feeling I am most familiar with!:o

For the record, I thought the free throw misses could be attributed to a bit of exhaustion, caused by the enormous energy we expended during the comeback. We played badly, made a great comeback against a good team, but ran out of gas. The last two minutes of regulation was when this began to really show. We made some bad decisions that kept us from winning in regulation, and we were just not there mentally in overtime.

I agree with this completely. Shooting free throws is a completely different facet of the game that can't be treated the same way as the rest. For one, a large part of it is mental. If an 18 or 19-year old kid is nervous or thrown a little off by shooting game-deciding free throws on national television, I don't think they can be faulted. Now, if they miss the free throws because of a lack of practice or conditioning, perhaps that can be blamed on them.

I, for one, am not upset at all over the missed free throws. It should have never gotten to that point. If we had played with intensity for the rest of the game, we wouldn't have had to make those free throws. Heck, the fact that we even got to take free throws made me feel a little better. The players were attacking the basket instead of sitting back and shooting contested jumpers. Driving and getting fouled without turning it over or throwing up a bad shot was a positive in my eyes, and I think the focus should be shifted towards the effort the players showed driving to draw the fouls rather than their mental performance at the free throw line (assuming it wasn't fatigue or lack of practice).

If we want to criticize for a lack of effort throughout the earlier portions of the game, fine. I just don't know if lamenting missed free throws is the best way to express our discontent.

superdave
02-06-2012, 12:37 PM
I listened to a few minutes of it. Glenn tweeted a decent summary of the exchange:

David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow

Coach K: "I hope we would never judge a person by one mistake. I hope that won't happen with Coach Paterno."
16m David Glenn Show David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow


Coach K: "UNC is most talented offensive team in the country"
17m David Glenn Show David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow


Coach K talking a lot about lack of leadership on this team.
20m David Glenn Show David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow


Coach K: "We're two possessions away from being undefeated in the conference but two other possessions away from being 4-4"
21m David Glenn Show David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow

Coach K on Miami: it's not so much win losses, it's if we perform well or don't perform well.
27m David Glenn Show David Glenn Show @DavidGlennShow

jv001
02-06-2012, 12:46 PM
I watched the game again without all the emotion I displayed yesterday watching it live. While I'm still disappointed, I not devastated. Had we played the first half with the same intensity we displayed in the second half, we most likely win by 7-10 points, imo. Mason after winning National player of the week had one of his worst games in a long while. His defense was poor and he looked intimidated by Johnson. I'm not upset over the missed free throws as I'm sure the guys were drained from the energy it took to get back into the game. I know several fans(including me) have been wanting to see Quinn get more minutes at pg. But we need to remember when a freshman not named Kyrie Irving, plays in big games many times they will fail. Yesterday was one of those game. The wild shot that Quinn took yesterday under great pressure was unnecessary and had Coach K and coach Collins asking why? That one play alone did not lose the game. Our terrible first half did. Just playing in a game like this will make Quinn better. So I say, Next play! Beat the tarholes. GoDuke!

78 Forever's team
02-06-2012, 12:57 PM
0-6.

Since when can't a Duke team make free throws? They're shooting 70% this year, tied for 125th in the nation. Not our usual style...is it a matter of practice? With the exception of Mason Plumlee, I don't think so. Missing free throws in OT says more about character and confidence, which to me indicates that the chemistry is not there yet. That's K's job and you better believe he's on it...so don't write this season off quite yet. As has been already said, no one would be crying and wailing if we hit 70% of our last 6 free throws. We'd be talking about a character building win.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Since when can't a Duke team make free throws? They're shooting 70% this year, tied for 125th in the nation. Not our usual style...is it a matter of practice? With the exception of Mason Plumlee, I don't think so. Missing free throws in OT says more about character and confidence, which to me indicates that the chemistry is not there yet. That's K's job and you better believe he's on it...so don't write this season off quite yet. As has been already said, no one would be crying and wailing if we hit 70% of our last 6 free throws. We'd be talking about a character building win.

I think it says a lot about their ability (or lack thereof) to concentrate at a crucial moment. Hard to say that's a confidence issue, but maybe. Either way, I don't think it's fair to question their character.

Duke12
02-06-2012, 01:27 PM
Could have used some time outs before the Quinn Cook half lob possession (give the freshman some instruction as he has not been in that situation before) as well as before some of the OT free throws to get legs back....like to see a little more responsibility be taken by the coaching staff. Next play.

78 Forever's team
02-06-2012, 01:42 PM
I think it says a lot about their ability (or lack thereof) to concentrate at a crucial moment. Hard to say that's a confidence issue, but maybe. Either way, I don't think it's fair to question their character.

I don't claim to be able to crawl inside anyone's head, but it does seem fairly obvious that free-throw shooting and confidence go hand in hand. I did not intend to question anyone's character but to observe that, as a team, this group is still developing. Hopefully, by March they will have deleoped the CHARACTER as a team to CONFIDENTLY nail free throws in big moments.

Neals384
02-06-2012, 01:44 PM
Looking on the bright side:
1) The big comeback
2) Austin just gets better and better
3) Seth is back
4) We have our point guard (hope Quinn's knee is ok)

And my question - what's up with Miami not putting anyone on the blocks when they shoot free throws?

OldSchool
02-06-2012, 01:49 PM
A few thoughts:

1. When Austin and Mason run the pick and roll, it doesn't help to do it on the side where Josh is. They need to run the play with a shooter in the corner or on the wing to keep the defense honest. Also, occasionally instead of taking it to the rim or kicking it out for a jump shot or trying to feed a bounce pass to a big, I would like to see Austin draw the hedge and then throw it over the defense to Mason and let Mason make a play in the post. Same with Miles. Those guys can play above the rim, use them. I think that may have been the problem with the miscommunication with Miles, in which Austin tried to drop off a bounce pass but Miles was moving toward the rim - I think Miles was looking for the ball over the top when Austin drew the double team. If Austin continues to get better into March, this team has a very high ceiling, provided they can maintain a sharp mental edge on defense. The Austin - Mason combination is the key to unlocking the rest of our offense. Establishing them early gives space for our other weapons like Seth, Andre and Ryan to operate.

2. For some reason the players seem to need to feel a sense of desperation before they bring the intensity on defense. But it doesn't do any good to play with intensity without also playing smart, or we just get burned on back door cuts or making silly fouls. The defensive shortcoming is in my view under-developed collective team basketball IQ.

3. Austin played very well. He's getting better at finding teammates when he draws a double or triple team. I think he is feeling more confident, which is making him more comfortable mentally, which is letting him see the floor better when he drives. Seeing the floor better is enabling him to make better decisions and making the team more potent as a whole offensively.

4. Quinn has a lot of talent and I think he has a bright future ahead of him as a Blue Devil. But I am skeptical that if in March we are handing the ball to Quinn at the end of a close game and telling him to win it for us, whether we are going to be cutting down many nets. It's no knock on Quinn, and I might feel differently if Quinn had been healthy at the beginning of the season and running the team from the point from the very beginning. In crunch time I think it should be Austin or Seth, at least until Quinn has more experience running the team.

5. For some reason it's off-putting hearing K try to motivate the team by implying they are not playing up to his standards or pointing to the banners in the rafters. From that it makes me wonder if he's run out of ways to effectively push them forward.

jv001
02-06-2012, 01:59 PM
A few thoughts:

1. When Austin and Mason run the pick and roll, it doesn't help to do it on the side where Josh is. They need to run the play with a shooter in the corner or on the wing to keep the defense honest. Also, occasionally instead of taking it to the rim or kicking it out for a jump shot or trying to feed a bounce pass to a big, I would like to see Austin draw the hedge and then throw it over the defense to Mason and let Mason make a play in the post. Same with Miles. Those guys can play above the rim, use them. I think that may have been the problem with the miscommunication with Miles, in which Austin tried to drop off a bounce pass but Miles was moving toward the rim - I think Miles was looking for the ball over the top when Austin drew the double team. If Austin continues to get better into March, this team has a very high ceiling, provided they can maintain a sharp mental edge on defense. The Austin - Mason combination is the key to unlocking the rest of our offense. Establishing them early gives space for our other weapons like Seth, Andre and Ryan to operate.

2. For some reason the players seem to need to feel a sense of desperation before they bring the intensity on defense. But it doesn't do any good to play with intensity without also playing smart, or we just get burned on back door cuts or making silly fouls. The defensive shortcoming is in my view under-developed collective team basketball IQ.

3. Austin played very well. He's getting better at finding teammates when he draws a double or triple team. I think he is feeling more confident, which is making him more comfortable mentally, which is letting him see the floor better when he drives. Seeing the floor better is enabling him to make better decisions and making the team more potent as a whole offensively.

4. Quinn has a lot of talent and I think he has a bright future ahead of him as a Blue Devil. But I am skeptical that if in March we are handing the ball to Quinn at the end of a close game and telling him to win it for us, whether we are going to be cutting down many nets. It's no knock on Quinn, and I might feel differently if Quinn had been healthy at the beginning of the season and running the team from the point from the very beginning. In crunch time I think it should be Austin or Seth, at least until Quinn has more experience running the team.

5. For some reason it's off-putting hearing K try to motivate the team by implying they are not playing up to his standards or pointing to the banners in the rafters. From that it makes me wonder if he's run out of ways to effectively push them forward.

Wonder if tarhole fans are saying Coach K is throwing his players under the bus? In any event, Coach is not calling out players individually. GoDuke!

78 Forever's team
02-06-2012, 02:00 PM
A few thoughts:

1. When Austin and Mason run the pick and roll, it doesn't help to do it on the side where Josh is. They need to run the play with a shooter in the corner or on the wing to keep the defense honest. Also, occasionally instead of taking it to the rim or kicking it out for a jump shot or trying to feed a bounce pass to a big, I would like to see Austin draw the hedge and then throw it over the defense to Mason and let Mason make a play in the post. Same with Miles. Those guys can play above the rim, use them. I think that may have been the problem with the miscommunication with Miles, in which Austin tried to drop off a bounce pass but Miles was moving toward the rim - I think Miles was looking for the ball over the top when Austin drew the double team. If Austin continues to get better into March, this team has a very high ceiling, provided they can maintain a sharp mental edge on defense. The Austin - Mason combination is the key to unlocking the rest of our offense. Establishing them early gives space for our other weapons like Seth, Andre and Ryan to operate.

2. For some reason the players seem to need to feel a sense of desperation before they bring the intensity on defense. But it doesn't do any good to play with intensity without also playing smart, or we just get burned on back door cuts or making silly fouls. The defensive shortcoming is in my view under-developed collective team basketball IQ.

3. Austin played very well. He's getting better at finding teammates when he draws a double or triple team. I think he is feeling more confident, which is making him more comfortable mentally, which is letting him see the floor better when he drives. Seeing the floor better is enabling him to make better decisions and making the team more potent as a whole offensively.

4. Quinn has a lot of talent and I think he has a bright future ahead of him as a Blue Devil. But I am skeptical that if in March we are handing the ball to Quinn at the end of a close game and telling him to win it for us, whether we are going to be cutting down many nets. It's no knock on Quinn, and I might feel differently if Quinn had been healthy at the beginning of the season and running the team from the point from the very beginning. In crunch time I think it should be Austin or Seth, at least until Quinn has more experience running the team.

5. For some reason it's off-putting hearing K try to motivate the team by implying they are not playing up to his standards or pointing to the banners in the rafters. From that it makes me wonder if he's run out of ways to effectively push them forward.

At the post game press conference, K basically said they weren't listening. Maybe Kyrie's not-nearly-one and done and early success has had an impact on communication in the locker room.

OldSchool
02-06-2012, 02:27 PM
At the post game press conference, K basically said they weren't listening. Maybe Kyrie's not-nearly-one and done and early success has had an impact on communication in the locker room.

It seems to be a frustrating position for K. I can't remember seeing him on the bench with his head buried in his hands looking so resigned.

A basketball team thrives best when there is a clear team leader, or at least a couple of leaders who are very closely aligned. Yet our most talented player and our most intense player is Austin, who is a freshman widely viewed as one-and-done. It's all the more amazing that last year, in the case of a returning national championship team led by veteran seniors pre-season All-American Kyle and All-American-to-be Nolan Smith, the coaches handed the ball to a guy coming out of high school viewed as one-and-done and gave him ownership of the team, and that it went as smoothly as it did until Kyrie's injury.

rsvman
02-06-2012, 02:42 PM
It seems to be a frustrating position for K. I can't remember seeing him on the bench with his head buried in his hands looking so resigned.

A basketball team thrives best when there is a clear team leader, or at least a couple of leaders who are very closely aligned. Yet our most talented player and our most intense player is Austin, who is a freshman widely viewed as one-and-done. It's all the more amazing that last year, in the case of a returning national championship team led by veteran seniors pre-season All-American Kyle and All-American-to-be Nolan Smith, the coaches handed the ball to a guy coming out of high school viewed as one-and-done and gave him ownership of the team, and that it went as smoothly as it did until Kyrie's injury.

They gave Kyrie the reins because Kyrie was the best player on that team. I'm not sure that Austin is the best player on this team, but he's close.

Billy Dat
02-06-2012, 02:48 PM
They gave Kyrie the reins because Kyrie was the best player on that team. I'm not sure that Austin is the best player on this team, but he's close.

If minutes played is kind of a coaching equivalent of voting with your feet, Austin has played 40 minutes more than any other player this year. I think he's our best player because he's the best combination of talent, smarts, fearlessness and fire in the belly.

78 Forever's team
02-06-2012, 02:49 PM
It seems to be a frustrating position for K. I can't remember seeing him on the bench with his head buried in his hands looking so resigned.

A basketball team thrives best when there is a clear team leader, or at least a couple of leaders who are very closely aligned. Yet our most talented player and our most intense player is Austin, who is a freshman widely viewed as one-and-done. It's all the more amazing that last year, in the case of a returning national championship team led by veteran seniors pre-season All-American Kyle and All-American-to-be Nolan Smith, the coaches handed the ball to a guy coming out of high school viewed as one-and-done and gave him ownership of the team, and that it went as smoothly as it did until Kyrie's injury.

You're spot on about the lack of a true leader. Despite Kyrie's role, I still think Smith and Singler were the go-to guys on leadership last year. The 2010 team was loaded with chemistry and it spilled over to 2011. Miles Plumlee is the only significant holdover from the 2010 team and he is playing behind his younger brother, so there goes that. I guess I wasn't aware that Rivers was one and done. Seems like he could use another year.

OldSchool
02-06-2012, 03:05 PM
I guess I wasn't aware that Rivers was one and done. Seems like he could use another year.

I don't know whether he is or not, but I think it's fair to say that was the prevailing view when he was recruited. I would not be surprised to see him stay another year.

SupaDave
02-06-2012, 03:14 PM
This is spot-on. If you are feeling frustrated today, that's understandable, but improvement is not linear- it comes in "starts and stops" - and we still have a lot of regular season to go. I am really interested to see how K manages the team going forward- in some senses, it feels to me like we are just waiting for Quinn and Austin to get experience. Once they get to the point where they can play up to their true talent levels consistently, then I think we have enough other pieces (front court depth, other shooters) to make a good run in March. But I don't see us going far in March (or winning a lot in February) unless we play better and more consistently on defense, and that is going to require a full team effort.

TOTALLY saw Quinn being allowed to run the game with no input. This post is spot on.

mike88
02-06-2012, 04:10 PM
TOTALLY saw Quinn being allowed to run the game with no input. This post is spot on.

Quinn has a ways to go - I thought he did many good things yesterday, but he made a couple of key errors, too. I would have liked for Coach K to have called a time out as soon as the primary play they were trying to run got stifled by Miami's overplay; maybe a more experienced point guard could have worked through it, but Quinn (not surprisingly) got flustered and tried to make a play but ended up with a (really) bad shot. But his basic set of skills, court vision, and even his defense are enough of an upgrade that I hope he gets more opportunities and experience, because by March I think we have the best chance of winning with him at the point for 25-30 minutes per game.

ChicagoCrazy84
02-06-2012, 04:30 PM
Quinn has a ways to go - I thought he did many good things yesterday, but he made a couple of key errors, too. I would have liked for Coach K to have called a time out as soon as the primary play they were trying to run got stifled by Miami's overplay; maybe a more experienced point guard could have worked through it, but Quinn (not surprisingly) got flustered and tried to make a play but ended up with a (really) bad shot. But his basic set of skills, court vision, and even his defense are enough of an upgrade that I hope he gets more opportunities and experience, because by March I think we have the best chance of winning with him at the point for 25-30 minutes per game.


I agree. From the point we were recruiting Quinn Cook, I always liked him and his skillset. I have no issues whatsoever him being our PG for the next few years. I think he could develop into a Chris Duhon when it's all said and done. But I have trouble putting our future in the hands of freshmen like him or Rivers because they will always try to force things with their athleiticism rather than let their games come to them. This is what we saw with Cook yesterday and it's what we have seen with Rivers (though he has gotten better). Unless our freshman is an Anthony Davis type, who is just a monster, I get uneasy thinking about it. These guys will get better as the year goes on, I just hope their confidence and defense comes with it, because that's what we need big time.

#1Duke
02-06-2012, 04:43 PM
5.
For some reason it's off-putting hearing K try to motivate the team by implying they are not playing up to his standards or pointing to the banners in the rafters. From that it makes me wonder if he's run out of ways to effectively push them forward.

Just what is a coach suppose to do?? The team is not playing up to his standards are they?? His standards are VERY high after all, it's why he has been so successful. Ever played an organized sport??
It's what coach's do. At this level, everybody does not get a trophy or a kind word for showing up.
Whatever it takes within reason to motivate the players has to be done.... period.

The only thing I didn't care for in the post game interview was coach K calling out the fans which was not necessary IMO.
Other than that, he has to light a fire under these guys. That's his job.

OldSchool
02-06-2012, 05:09 PM
5.

Just what is a coach suppose to do?? The team is not playing up to his standards are they?? His standards are VERY high after all, it's why he has been so successful. Ever played an organized sport??
It's what coach's do. At this level, everybody does not get a trophy or a kind word for showing up.
Whatever it takes within reason to motivate the players has to be done.... period.

The only thing I didn't care for in the post game interview was coach K calling out the fans which was not necessary IMO.
Other than that, he has to light a fire under these guys. That's his job.

Of course his job is to motivate the team. What caught my attention was the way in which he is now approaching it.

Typically K speaks of each team as being its own thing, even teams that have a lot of the same personnel from the year before. He hates to be drawn into comparisons of teams from different years and I can't remember an instance in which he called out a team for not living up to the accomplishments of teams from the past. And I wonder how effective pointing to the banners in the rafters is anyway. It seems a bit like, I've tried A, and B, and C to light a fire under this team and I'm down to D.

And K almost never speaks in personal terms, as in "what I've accomplished" and "the standard I have set" and so on. Even when he was breaking the record for most wins, he down-played the focus on himself personally. So when K says something along the lines of the team is not living up to my standard of accomplishment, the statement seems jarring coming directly from K. When he does that, my sense is that he must be down to playing the last card in his hand in terms of motivating them.

No doubt K, like many of us, sees the very high potential for this team and is trying to find ways to provoke them into achieving that.

Zeke
02-06-2012, 05:56 PM
5.

Just what is a coach suppose to do?? The team is not playing up to his standards are they?? His standards are VERY high after all, it's why he has been so successful. Ever played an organized sport??
It's what coach's do. At this level, everybody does not get a trophy or a kind word for showing up.
Whatever it takes within reason to motivate the players has to be done.... period.

The only thing I didn't care for in the post game interview was coach K calling out the fans which was not necessary IMO.
Other than that, he has to light a fire under these guys. That's his job.

When things aren't working out the easiest and least effective thing a coach can do is to say that the team is not playing hard enough and every thing would be fine if they would just play harder. It is a lot easier than saying that we coaches set up the game wrong and didn't know what to do. I am viscerally sure that every one of these players are giving 100% of what they have at that particularly time.

shoutingncu
02-06-2012, 07:19 PM
Wonder if tarhole fans are saying Coach K is throwing his players under the bus? In any event, Coach is not calling out players individually. GoDuke!

This 'hole knows it's only Practice 25, so he still has time to get the bus started. ;)

#1Duke
02-06-2012, 07:22 PM
When things aren't working out the easiest and least effective thing a coach can do is to say that the team is not playing hard enough and every thing would be fine if they would just play harder. It is a lot easier than saying that we coaches set up the game wrong and didn't know what to do. I am viscerally sure that every one of these players are giving 100% of what they have at that particularly time.

I'll just answer this with the two totally different halfs we witnessed Sunday. First half we were sluggish and under performing. Second half we played strong for the most part and looked like a different team.
The difference? Hustle, determination, execution... all things out of the coaches control. Missed foul shots and bad shot choices?? All out of the control of the coach for the most part.
I am not as down on this team as it may seem and I don't think coach K is either. I think he's frustrated in the inability of the guys to put together 40 minutes of hard play in one game.
I don't think the coaching staff set up the game wrong at all. I think it was the lack of hustle and desire that did us in and I think that is a fair statement for anyone to make.

Matches
02-06-2012, 07:33 PM
Austin may be the most unfairly-maligned Duke player I can remember. He's seriously good, ya'll. He plays hard all the time, he's got mad skills, and he never backs down. He's the one player on the team who has gotten demonstrably better since the season started. No, he is not a defensive whiz and probably won't be this year, but he's nowhere near as bad on defense as his rep.

Is it a timing thing? Is everyone just down on him because he's not Kyrie? I recognize AR has flaws in his game - but so does just about everyone else, not just at Duke but everywhere.

Devilsfan
02-06-2012, 07:56 PM
It might be following one of the best guards ever to wear a Duke jersey in Kyrie. Kyrie led, be it for only nine games. It's hard for a freshmen to come in and be a leader. You have to earn your teammates respect and that usually takes time. Austin does have talent and a lot of it, though.

Newton_14
02-06-2012, 08:10 PM
I haven't watched today's game yet, but I will make a general comment on T's... there's a whole lot that is said on the court between the refs, coaches, and players that we as fans aren't privy to. I remember a game in Cameron against Maryland circa 1997 where right before tipoff the refs told the captains of both teams that profanity wouldn't be tolerated at all (this is what was reported to the media after the game). Somehow the Maryland players didn't hear the message, and three different players picked up T's in the first ten minutes of play. Gary managed to pick up two himself and get tossed. Under normal circumstances these technicals would be completely unmerited, but the refs gave fair warning before they happened.

That's essentially what happened to Andre last game. Two plays prior there was a gathering of bodies under the basket and the refs told everyone to cool it. Then Andre makes a great defensive play and starts woofing - not directed at anyone, but still pretty demonstrative. You can see Coach K telling him to tone it down. Then he hits a three and keeps on going, I mean the refs have no choice but to T him up.

So Reggie Johnson flexes his muscles, yeah that's a form of taunting but is it any worse than Dahntay Jones doing pushups or Gerald Henderson's reaction after his monster slam against Maryland in that game where Nolan got knocked out? For all we know the refs warned Johnson after his display. But regardless, like others have said if we're concerned about his taunting then we need to worry about not letting him go all beast mode on us in the first place.

I was there. The refs did warn Johnson once they realized what he was doing and FWIW Johnson immediately apologized. My beef is with the continued inconsistency with ACC refs. One kid hangs on the rim and its a Tech, another kid does the same thing and no call. One kid hits a 3 and heads up the floor yelling something to himself and gets a T, another kid taunts the crowd and only draws a warning. Just be consistent for the love of sanity.

The refs did not cost Duke the game by any stretch of the imagination and I don't think anyone is saying that here. As for calls, the play where Josh and Miles had Johnson double teamed and Johnson literally knocked Josh down to clear space to make a layup was the most egregious to me. I could not tell if Mason fell down on the travel or was pulled down so no comment there.

The loss was a combination of uninspired play for 24 minutes, incredible shooting by Kadji, inmature decisions with the game on the line, and free throw shooting down the stretch. Improve in just 1 of those areas, and its a win.

Newton_14
02-06-2012, 08:39 PM
I never question the effort. To me, I look at it this way...

*I* could hit 70-80% of my free throws and I am not a D1 college player at a major university. I'm not even DIII grade.

Players that shoot well everywhere but the FT line amaze me. Was fatigue involved? Maybe. But I doubt it.... I think it was nerves.

So you could have stood at the line yesterday, in Cameron, with 24 seconds on the clock, Duke down by 1, the crowd watching, millions more on TV, and calmly knocked down 2 free throws to win the game for Duke? Seriously?

Those kids shoot under so much game pressure, that the common man would crap in his pants and never get the ball to the rim. There is zero comparison to you or me or anyone else shooting in our backyards or in our rec leagues.

The 3 kids that missed had all been on the floor for the last 17 minutes of regulation (20 for Austin), and all of overtime, playing fullcourt pressure defense for most of those minutes, as well as having to erase a 16 point deficit. 2 of the 3 were freshman. It stinks that all of them went 0 for 2, but sorry, to sit there an suggest you would have made them in the same circumstance is ludicrous.

tbyers11
02-06-2012, 09:53 PM
The refs did not cost Duke the game by any stretch of the imagination and I don't think anyone is saying that here. As for calls, the play where Josh and Miles had Johnson double teamed and Johnson literally knocked Josh down to clear space to make a layup was the most egregious to me. I could not tell if Mason fell down on the travel or was pulled down so no comment there.

The loss was a combination of uninspired play for 24 minutes, incredible shooting by Kadji, inmature decisions with the game on the line, and free throw shooting down the stretch. Improve in just 1 of those areas, and its a win.

With benefit of DVR (I watched each play multiple times), it looked to me like Josh kind of flopped at minimal contact on the play you cited. However, Mason was definitely pulled down by a hand on his shoulder by a Clemson player. Not sure how the refs missed that one.

Newton_14
02-06-2012, 10:09 PM
With benefit of DVR (I watched each play multiple times), it looked to me like Josh kind of flopped at minimal contact on the play you cited. However, Mason was definitely pulled down by a hand on his shoulder by a Clemson player. Not sure how the refs missed that one.

Thanks. Have not seen it on TV. In person it looked like Reggie bowled him over with a shoulder to the chest. If it looked like a flop on TV, Josh sold it well. It honestly looked like he got creamed live. I had a bad angle on Mason's play, but sounds like that one was a pull down.

To reiterate, the refs did not cause the loss. Not saying that at all. They blew their share of calls, but if our guys play ball it doesn't matter.

FerryFor50
02-06-2012, 10:34 PM
So you could have stood at the line yesterday, in Cameron, with 24 seconds on the clock, Duke down by 1, the crowd watching, millions more on TV, and calmly knocked down 2 free throws to win the game for Duke? Seriously?

Those kids shoot under so much game pressure, that the common man would crap in his pants and never get the ball to the rim. There is zero comparison to you or me or anyone else shooting in our backyards or in our rec leagues.

The 3 kids that missed had all been on the floor for the last 17 minutes of regulation (20 for Austin), and all of overtime, playing fullcourt pressure defense for most of those minutes, as well as having to erase a 16 point deficit. 2 of the 3 were freshman. It stinks that all of them went 0 for 2, but sorry, to sit there an suggest you would have made them in the same circumstance is ludicrous.

Did I say I could shoot under those conditions? I'm not a D1 player at a top school. But I can say that in my "high pressure" rec league games I could calmly knock those FTs down. :D

My point is, if you are a top player at a top school and you're know for your shooting prowess, you knock down at least 80% of those FTs. This wasn't Mason Plumlee missing FTs. These were our shooters.

And honestly... how much pressure is there for these kids shooting FTs at home, against a non-rival, when you just came back from a huge deficit and have all the momentum?

And millions watching on TV? On ESPNU? A regional game? Eh.... I doubt it.

FerryFor50
02-06-2012, 10:39 PM
Austin may be the most unfairly-maligned Duke player I can remember. He's seriously good, ya'll. He plays hard all the time, he's got mad skills, and he never backs down. He's the one player on the team who has gotten demonstrably better since the season started. No, he is not a defensive whiz and probably won't be this year, but he's nowhere near as bad on defense as his rep.

Is it a timing thing? Is everyone just down on him because he's not Kyrie? I recognize AR has flaws in his game - but so does just about everyone else, not just at Duke but everywhere.

I think it's partly following Kyrie, but also partly his overall demeanor. He just always looks like he has a chip on his shoulder. It rubbed me the wrong way at first but I've gotten over it.... especially since he's the closest thing to a leader this team has right now.

JNort
02-07-2012, 03:53 AM
So you could have stood at the line yesterday, in Cameron, with 24 seconds on the clock, Duke down by 1, the crowd watching, millions more on TV, and calmly knocked down 2 free throws to win the game for Duke? Seriously?

Those kids shoot under so much game pressure, that the common man would crap in his pants and never get the ball to the rim. There is zero comparison to you or me or anyone else shooting in our backyards or in our rec leagues.

The 3 kids that missed had all been on the floor for the last 17 minutes of regulation (20 for Austin), and all of overtime, playing fullcourt pressure defense for most of those minutes, as well as having to erase a 16 point deficit. 2 of the 3 were freshman. It stinks that all of them went 0 for 2, but sorry, to sit there an suggest you would have made them in the same circumstance is ludicrous.

1st part I would say no I prob could not because I only hit about 40 to 60% from the line and that's when i'm on fire

2nd part I must completely disagree with. Just because you play college ball on a big stage does not automatically give you the ability to handle pressure better and not playing on the big stage does not take away the ability to handle pressure. It just does not work like that! You either can handle it well or you do not.

Also my .02 was that they did not miss entirely because of pressure but more due to other factors (Due to miss, tired from playing 20 straight mins, getting fouled hard and being shaken up, or lack of focus.). Pressure may have effected some but I doubt it was a difference maker or at least entirely.

3rd part Yeah I don't know why someone would suggest that so I agree, maybe the poster was JJ Redick so therefore he does feel he could make it...




Quinn and Austin in particular were fouled very hard before their free throws and could be a part of the reason for the misses.

FerryFor50
02-07-2012, 07:56 AM
1st part I would say no I prob could not because I only hit about 40 to 60% from the line and that's when i'm on fire

2nd part I must completely disagree with. Just because you play college ball on a big stage does not automatically give you the ability to handle pressure better and not playing on the big stage does not take away the ability to handle pressure. It just does not work like that! You either can handle it well or you do not.

Also my .02 was that they did not miss entirely because of pressure but more due to other factors (Due to miss, tired from playing 20 straight mins, getting fouled hard and being shaken up, or lack of focus.). Pressure may have effected some but I doubt it was a difference maker or at least entirely.

3rd part Yeah I don't know why someone would suggest that so I agree, maybe the poster was JJ Redick so therefore he does feel he could make it...




Quinn and Austin in particular were fouled very hard before their free throws and could be a part of the reason for the misses.

If you read the post I didn't suggest anything. I said "if I can hit FTs, these top college players should be able to hit FTs."

Anyone who thinks missing FTs, especially 6 in a row, is acceptable at any level of play, they're rationalizing. Saying "it's the pressure" or "they were tired" is basically saying "maybe they should play another sport."

Kedsy
02-07-2012, 08:55 AM
Anyone who thinks missing FTs, especially 6 in a row, is acceptable at any level of play, they're rationalizing. Saying "it's the pressure" or "they were tired" is basically saying "maybe they should play another sport."

Except nobody missed 6 in a row. Three guys missed 2 in a row each. Big difference.

Also, these things build on each other. Once you miss the first, it sometimes becomes even harder to make the second. Once you see someone else miss two, you put more pressure on yourself not to do the same, which makes it even harder. I'm not making excuses or rationalizing, just saying the way it is. There's just no way we should get angry because a kid misses a shot. Or even six.

DukieInBrasil
02-07-2012, 09:48 AM
As Kedsy mentioned on the UNC pre-game thread, that Miami is a very good team since RJs return, well, sorta. They've lost 3 games in that span, granted 2 of those losses were in back-to-back road games several games after his return, so he wasn't totally out of game shape, but not as in shape as he is now. Both losses were to ranked teams, UVA and UNC. UNC blew them out. 2 games later they lost at home, to NC State. Then they won 3 in a row prior to facing Duke. 8-3 (prior to Duke) since RJ's return with the 1st 3 or 4 of those games coming OOC, not sure that qualifies as a great or very good team, tho' certainly better than mediocre.
However, as much trouble as MP II, or any of our bigs for that matter, had with RJ, the bigger concern for me was the complete inability to control Larkin. He was getting past the perimeter and getting the ball to the big man (as he should) in great position to score. Slow Larkin down, and RJ doesn't chew us up inside.
Kadji was also a monster vs us, but he has been playing great since RJs return, so that's not much of an anomaly.

Kedsy
02-07-2012, 09:58 AM
As Kedsy mentioned on the UNC pre-game thread, that Miami is a very good team since RJs return, well, sorta. They've lost 3 games in that span, granted 2 of those losses were in back-to-back road games several games after his return, so he wasn't totally out of game shape, but not as in shape as he is now. Both losses were to ranked teams, UVA and UNC. UNC blew them out. 2 games later they lost at home, to NC State. Then they won 3 in a row prior to facing Duke. 8-3 (prior to Duke) since RJ's return with the 1st 3 or 4 of those games coming OOC, not sure that qualifies as a great or very good team, tho' certainly better than mediocre.

To be fair to Miami, the loss to Virginia was by 1 point on the road. The loss to NC State (which I also think is a pretty good team) was by just 5, although as you note it was at home for Miami. But plenty of top 25 teams have lost three games since December 17 (Johnson's first game back) against similar schedules. Including Duke, which I consider to be a very good team.

Charlieyca
02-07-2012, 10:29 AM
Watching the last few seconds before quinn cook's shot, I found myself screaming TIMEOUT TIMEOUT. It took me a few minutes after the game was over to find a reason why K didnt burn a timeout when he had two. some thoughts
1. we had two so there was no need to save your last timeout for drawing up fullcourt play
2. There was approx 20 secs left, not a rush to get off a shot
3. He did not want a TO until after Kelly got the rebound.

I (not a HOF coach) believe he wanted Quinn Cook to be in that situation before wednesday and before Feb 1(UNC game). To my knowledge, I have not seen Cook in that pressure situation at the end of the game. I only remember seeing him in end game situations when we were up.

At first I thought K missed a chance to teach Cook how to handle that situation by not calling a timeout, but looking back I see what he could have been trying to do.

(Please dont compare this to the coach up the road who consistently ends close games with 2 or 3 TOs remaining:D)

Zeke
02-07-2012, 10:42 AM
I'll just answer this with the two totally different halfs we witnessed Sunday. First half we were sluggish and under performing. Second half we played strong for the most part and looked like a different team.
The difference? Hustle, determination, execution... all things out of the coaches control. Missed foul shots and bad shot choices?? All out of the control of the coach for the most part.
I am not as down on this team as it may seem and I don't think coach K is either. I think he's frustrated in the inability of the guys to put together 40 minutes of hard play in one game.
I don't think the coaching staff set up the game wrong at all. I think it was the lack of hustle and desire that did us in and I think that is a fair statement for anyone to make.

The traditional thing that coaches do whenever their team comes out sluggish is to start an all court press/trap and fast break to get the juices flowing. It's better to do it earlier rather than later. Duke didn't start trapping till the 2nd half and it worked pretty well, and did only an occasional fast break. Poor shot selection can be from the player's insecurity or the fact that the defense is playing well. I don't for a moment believe that any of the Duke players did not hustle or were not determined. Execution is another matter - the defense has something to say about that.
I was very impressed with Wes Welker after the Super Bowl when he said that it was his fault that he didn't catch THE pass. I would be more impressed if Coach K would say the at least part of the fault was his and not that the players aren't 1) listening 2) believing 3) tough enough. Gee's these are college students and he's a pro.
There is another thing. If you're hearing this every day in practice and reading it in the newspapers, how long does it take before it become a self fulfilling prophecy.

fgb
02-07-2012, 11:02 AM
I would be more impressed if Coach K would say the at least part of the fault was his and not that the players aren't 1) listening 2) believing 3) tough enough.

it's worth considering that k was possibly calling his guys out, as opposed to throwing them under the bus.

oldnavy
02-07-2012, 11:06 AM
I'm not blaming the refs for the loss - the team took care of that part.

What I'm doing is hating on Karl Hess. His inconsistency and bias make him a disgrace to the profession.

What are the chances that we go 3-in-a-row and get him for the UNC (9F!) game as well?

I was actually at this game. Let me tell you I enjoyed the Maui games much more!! Anyway, the reason I say that I was there because I watched the officials alot during dead balls. Karl Hess actually told Austin that he had a clean block up top, but got him with the body.... I had a bad angle to see that because Austin's back was to me, but it looked very clean... did anyone get a good look at it on replay?

I also had a great view of the travel call when Miles (?) was pulled down on the floor after an offensive rebound in the first half. He got hacked about 3 times before he was pulled down... a horrible call. All in all the refs were pretty bad, but we played worse... not a great combination. One other comment, K's daughter Debbie that was sitting a little in front of me and a few rows down, MAN is she into the games!! She has her dad's passion. At one point she was yelling at the refs that they had called 9 Duke fouls to only 3 Miami fouls.... I got a kick out of that.

Before I hear it from anyone, let me be very clear, the refs DID NOT cost us this game nor, did they really have much of an impact IMO even though I think they were really bad.

This team is going to give me an ulcer.... Lot's of talent, not the best MIX of talent, and no floor leader..... Still have time to turn it around, let's knock off UNC tomorrow night!!

FerryFor50
02-07-2012, 11:09 AM
Except nobody missed 6 in a row. Three guys missed 2 in a row each. Big difference.

Also, these things build on each other. Once you miss the first, it sometimes becomes even harder to make the second. Once you see someone else miss two, you put more pressure on yourself not to do the same, which makes it even harder. I'm not making excuses or rationalizing, just saying the way it is. There's just no way we should get angry because a kid misses a shot. Or even six.

Fair enough. But I get mad when anyone under 6'8" misses a FT. :)

oldnavy
02-07-2012, 11:27 AM
Did I say I could shoot under those conditions? I'm not a D1 player at a top school. But I can say that in my "high pressure" rec league games I could calmly knock those FTs down. :D

My point is, if you are a top player at a top school and you're know for your shooting prowess, you knock down at least 80% of those FTs. This wasn't Mason Plumlee missing FTs. These were our shooters.

And honestly... how much pressure is there for these kids shooting FTs at home, against a non-rival, when you just came back from a huge deficit and have all the momentum?

And millions watching on TV? On ESPNU? A regional game? Eh.... I doubt it.

I think the real point is that we should have never been in the position that one or six missed free throws determine the outcome of the game. The first 25 minutes of lackluster play cost us this game not the FT misses.

jimsumner
02-07-2012, 11:27 AM
The traditional thing that coaches do whenever their team comes out sluggish is to start an all court press/trap and fast break to get the juices flowing. It's better to do it earlier rather than later. Duke didn't start trapping till the 2nd half and it worked pretty well, and did only an occasional fast break. Poor shot selection can be from the player's insecurity or the fact that the defense is playing well. I don't for a moment believe that any of the Duke players did not hustle or were not determined. Execution is another matter - the defense has something to say about that.
I was very impressed with Wes Welker after the Super Bowl when he said that it was his fault that he didn't catch THE pass. I would be more impressed if Coach K would say the at least part of the fault was his and not that the players aren't 1) listening 2) believing 3) tough enough. Gee's these are college students and he's a pro.
There is another thing. If you're hearing this every day in practice and reading it in the newspapers, how long does it take before it become a self fulfilling prophecy.

After the SJU game, K was asked who was responsible for fixing the problems he had earlier identified. He pointed to himself and said emphatically "Me. Me. Me."

That's consistent with his M.O. I don't think any suggestion that he's deflecting blame onto his players is fair or accurate.

That said, if you follow Duke basketball, you know that K is trying to instill leadership, responsibility and accountability. So, there is a line here. He's not on the floor, he didn't miss any foul shots and these guys do have to motivate themselves and be accountable for what happens. Individually and collectively.

You're right that these guys are 18-22 and they have the same responsibilites and distractions as their student cohorts. They have classes, papers, tests, girlfriends, roommates, siblings, annoying parents (all parents are annoying)., they get colds, they have bad days and good days, they have friends and not friends, some on the team, some not.

Just like real people.

And then they get to perform on national TV and if their efforts don't measure up, they get to go on internet message boards and read that anyone should be able to make foul shots.

A word about the post-game comments you read here and elsewhere. The Duke locker room was opened about five minutes after the end of the Miami game. A horde of people with lights, cameras and recording devices descend on these kids. They've just lost a tough game in overtime, they're angry, they're frustrated, they're upset. But they don't get to process any of this. They have to answer questions about those missed foul shots, the losses at home, why this team isn't as good as the mythical teams of the past.

And they almost always do this with a poise and honesty and degree of reflection that I would have found way beyond my skill set at that age. I think that deserves some acknowledgment.

Don't get me wrong. These guys knew what they were getting into when they signed on the dotted line and they're coached up on how to handle the media. I don't think for a minute that Seth Curry is sharing his inner-most secrets when I stick a recorder in his face. But I do think he's doing his level best to give me--and by extension, you--his most accurate view of what went on and how it went on and what it means.

But your core point is right on. They're kids, doing the best they can and if we invest too much of our identity in this, then maybe we need to look in the mirror.


As for Welker, no way that was his fault. He was open and Brady just missed him.

Kewlswim
02-07-2012, 12:04 PM
I think it's partly following Kyrie, but also partly his overall demeanor. He just always looks like he has a chip on his shoulder. It rubbed me the wrong way at first but I've gotten over it.... especially since he's the closest thing to a leader this team has right now.

Hi,

I LOVE that. I wish all our (Duke's) kids played with a chip on their shoulder. I couldn't be happier with Austin. I think he needs another year at Duke (if he decides to leave), but I could also understand his going to the NBA. I am enjoying watching him play while he is a Dukie.

GO DUKE!

JNort
02-07-2012, 01:02 PM
If you read the post I didn't suggest anything. I said "if I can hit FTs, these top college players should be able to hit FTs."

Anyone who thinks missing FTs, especially 6 in a row, is acceptable at any level of play, they're rationalizing. Saying "it's the pressure" or "they were tired" is basically saying "maybe they should play another sport."

Uhh I do not believe I ever responded to you....

Zeke
02-07-2012, 02:04 PM
After the SJU game, K was asked who was responsible for fixing the problems he had earlier identified. He pointed to himself and said emphatically "Me. Me. Me."

That's consistent with his M.O. I don't think any suggestion that he's deflecting blame onto his players is fair or accurate.

That said, if you follow Duke basketball, you know that K is trying to instill leadership, responsibility and accountability. So, there is a line here. He's not on the floor, he didn't miss any foul shots and these guys do have to motivate themselves and be accountable for what happens. Individually and collectively.

You're right that these guys are 18-22 and they have the same responsibilites and distractions as their student cohorts. They have classes, papers, tests, girlfriends, roommates, siblings, annoying parents (all parents are annoying)., they get colds, they have bad days and good days, they have friends and not friends, some on the team, some not.
As for leadership "follow me" is the best leadership. Difficulties should be kept "in house" K. expects that from his players and they should expect it from him too,
As for Wes Welker - I agree completely. The point is he said it was his fault - not Brady's. It was Brady's wife who pointed to the receivers - much like Coach K is doing to his team.

Just like real people.

And then they get to perform on national TV and if their efforts don't measure up, they get to go on internet message boards and read that anyone should be able to make foul shots.

A word about the post-game comments you read here and elsewhere. The Duke locker room was opened about five minutes after the end of the Miami game. A horde of people with lights, cameras and recording devices descend on these kids. They've just lost a tough game in overtime, they're angry, they're frustrated, they're upset. But they don't get to process any of this. They have to answer questions about those missed foul shots, the losses at home, why this team isn't as good as the mythical teams of the past.

And they almost always do this with a poise and honesty and degree of reflection that I would have found way beyond my skill set at that age. I think that deserves some acknowledgment.

Don't get me wrong. These guys knew what they were getting into when they signed on the dotted line and they're coached up on how to handle the media. I don't think for a minute that Seth Curry is sharing his inner-most secrets when I stick a recorder in his face. But I do think he's doing his level best to give me--and by extension, you--his most accurate view of what went on and how it went on and what it means.

But your core point is right on. They're kids, doing the best they can and if we invest too much of our identity in this, then maybe we need to look in the mirror.


As for Welker, no way that was his fault. He was open and Brady just missed him.

Yes, I have followed Duke Basketball - for almost 60 years now. I can tell when the current players' quotes and interviews on TV when they are "on message". I also played for some coaches who were "locker slammers" - it was impressive the first time or two - then it became a bet as to how many time he would abuse the locker. That was in the day when a coach was more able to do those things than with players now. .
As for leadership. The best leadership is "follow me". Any differences should be kept "in house" I'm sure Coach K expects that from his players and should follow that himself.
As for Wes Welker - the point is he was the one who said it was his fault - not Tom Brady's. It was Brady's wife who blamed it on the receivers and just like K she couldn't make the receptions etc. etc. K is acting more like Brady's wife than Welker.

FerryFor50
02-07-2012, 07:09 PM
Uhh I do not believe I ever responded to you....

Directly? No. You responded to a response to my post, referencing my post. So, I responded to you for context.

JNort
02-07-2012, 08:31 PM
Directly? No. You responded to a response to my post, referencing my post. So, I responded to you for context.

I thought you were making it seem like I spoke for you. I was just disagreeing with Newton from my own perspective