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mr. synellinden
02-01-2012, 06:51 PM
Now The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/02/sports/ncaabasketball/dukes-cameron-crazies-lose-their-enthusiasm.html?_r=1&hpw) is on the story that the Cameron Crazies have lost their mojo.

I don't want to go so far as to say current students have an obligation to make sure the tradition and standards of the Cameron crowd are upheld because most people don't go to college to be a basketball fan, but I hope that current Duke students have enough pride to want to maintain the reputation that has been built over many decades and years of winning and losing records. Cameron is "Our House" always, but only the current residents can control how much of a Mad House it is.

I have faith the current Duke students that they'll rise to the occasion the rest of the season, as will the team they support.

Mike Corey
02-01-2012, 07:02 PM
Not that it matters, but I will be writing a rebuttal tonight.

This whole thing has gotten out of hand.

blazindw
02-01-2012, 07:07 PM
Not that it matters, but I will be writing a rebuttal tonight.

This whole thing has gotten out of hand.

I look forward to reading, retweeting and sharing it, Mike. Get 'em.

Duvall
02-01-2012, 07:19 PM
I don't want to go so far as to say current students have an obligation to make sure the tradition and standards of the Cameron crowd are upheld because most people don't go to college to be a basketball fan, but I hope that current Duke students have enough pride to want to maintain the reputation that has been built over many decades and years of winning and losing records.

Well, unless they want to create traditions and reputations of their own. That's cool too.

throatybeard
02-01-2012, 08:34 PM
Oh goody. We haven't had a thread on this in, like, four days.

throatybeard
02-01-2012, 09:41 PM
OK, I read it. I was expecting sensationalism, but the NYT article seems pretty fair.

For years I've been seeing people argue we need to either expand Cameron, or build a new bigger arena. Wake Forest, another teeny weeny private school did this in the late 1980s. They have a 14.5K arena that is overrun with UNC fans for that game. Heck, I got easy primo seats for Duke there in 2002.

Cameron works well financially because it creates scarcity. This is why people are willing to donate five figures just for the right to buy tickets. The people who run the athletic Dept know what's going on. I assume one or two of them figured out linear programming in Algebra I. They know how to maximize Cameron for maximum revenue.

The powers that be have figured out how to maximize upstairs. And as the kids have less interest, they've sold downstairs. Honestly, I fail to see what the problem is, other than we'd all love the entire lower bowl to be filled with pogo-sticking 20 year olds. Which ain't happening at this point.

Lord Ash
02-01-2012, 10:59 PM
How long until the first slew of articles ranking venues that don't have Cameron at the top come out? It won't be long... people will jump at the chance to badmouth Cameron in list form, and be able to say "Well look, the NYT said so too!"

Greg_Newton
02-01-2012, 11:18 PM
Seems like kind of a no-win situation for the current students at this point. It's kind of a Catch-22 if you're cheering in an attempt to satisfy a bunch of complaining old-timers' expectations of what your culture should be, you're never going to recreate the kind of edgy fun that made Cameron great.

You're either drunk and yelling hilariously mean things at the other team, or you're not.

Greg_Newton
02-01-2012, 11:19 PM
How long until the first slew of articles ranking venues that don't have Cameron at the top come out? It won't be long... people will jump at the chance to badmouth Cameron in list form, and be able to say "Well look, the NYT said so too!"

I'll make sure to create a new thread for every Bleacher Report masterpiece to grace the internet with its presence. :p

gep
02-02-2012, 12:26 AM
Well, unless they want to create traditions and reputations of their own. That's cool too.


Seems like kind of a no-win situation for the current students at this point. It's kind of a Catch-22 if you're cheering in an attempt to satisfy a bunch of complaining old-timers' expectations of what your culture should be, you're never going to recreate the kind of edgy fun that made Cameron great.

You're either drunk and yelling hilariously mean things at the other team, or you're not.

I've wanted to say this for a few days... and maybe here's the place to do it. As I recall recent Duke home games at Cameron, it appears that the Crazies do the *same thing* that's been done for at least 10+ years. There's nothing new. And, I really think that the demographics of Duke students today, compared to 10+ years ago, is definitely different. Just look at the online, social networking stuff going on. Add to that, that college education today is *much* more competitive that it was, and the typical Duke student is not now as invested in Duke basketball as before. One of my cousin's daughters applied to Duke in mid-1990's just to be a part of the Cameron Crazies... *only* reason Duke was her first choice (she ended up at Columbia... not accepted to Duke, much to her disappointment). I remember, when I first became an avid Duke basketball fan, I watched the Duke home games as much for the Cameron Crazies as for the game. There always seem to have been something to laugh about. But recently, only the "same old stuff".

So... maybe the current Crazies are not as "invested", and therefore not as spontaneous as in the past... and if they do what the "think" they should be doing... well... that's "how it is", I guess... :confused:

uh_no
02-02-2012, 08:58 AM
How long until the first slew of articles ranking venues that don't have Cameron at the top come out? It won't be long... people will jump at the chance to badmouth Cameron in list form, and be able to say "Well look, the NYT said so too!"

Honestly, its been reputation that's kept it at the top. If you watch tv games, other stadium's students are no less crazy than ours. The location of the students (right next to the court in full view of the camera) combined with an extremely low roof (relative to most other place) make it loud, and reputation does the rest.

At the final 4 2 years ago, the MSU fans were every bit as crazy as the duke ones....

Mike Corey
02-02-2012, 09:06 AM
So... maybe the current Crazies are not as "invested", and therefore not as spontaneous as in the past... and if they do what the "think" they should be doing... well... that's "how it is", I guess... :confused:

Excerpt from a letter to the editor of the Duke Chronicle in 2001:


“These fans are supposed to be the masters of creative cheers and taunts, the heart of Duke’s home court advantage at Cameron Indoor Stadium. But is that heart even beating? These crazies seem more than happy to rest on their laurels and recycle the same old chants of years past.”

Steven43
02-02-2012, 09:18 AM
OK, I read it. I was expecting sensationalism, but the NYT article seems pretty fair.

For years I've been seeing people argue we need to either expand Cameron, or build a new bigger arena. Wake Forest, another teeny weeny private school did this in the late 1980s. They have a 14.5K arena that is overrun with UNC fans for that game. Heck, I got easy primo seats for Duke there in 2002.

Cameron works well financially because it creates scarcity. This is why people are willing to donate five figures just for the right to buy tickets. The people who run the athletic Dept know what's going on. I assume one or two of them figured out linear programming in Algebra I. They know how to maximize Cameron for maximum revenue.

The powers that be have figured out how to maximize upstairs. And as the kids have less interest, they've sold downstairs. Honestly, I fail to see what the problem is, other than we'd all love the entire lower bowl to be filled with pogo-sticking 20 year olds. Which ain't happening at this point.

I agree with throatybeard that the scarcity of available tickets creates greater demand and leads to larger donations to the Iron Dukes than people would otherwise be willing to give. Sure, if there were more tickets available more would be sold, but there would probably be a few games that would not sell out, causing the mystique of a Duke ticket to be somewhat devalued. If the mystique were to go away to a degree, there might be fewer people willing to pony up the big bucks to the Iron Dukes. I think it makes more financial sense to keep it the way it is. But even if it doesn't make financial sense, I think the size of Cameron is just right. It makes Duke unique, particularly for a school at the very top level of college basketball. That's what makes it all the more frustrating that the intensity of support among Duke students might have slipped recently.

killerleft
02-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Not that it should affect cheering for the team one way or the other, but when I look at the students nowadays it looks like they thought they were going to a taping of "Let's Make A Deal".

snowdenscold
02-02-2012, 10:20 AM
I've wanted to say this for a few days... and maybe here's the place to do it. As I recall recent Duke home games at Cameron, it appears that the Crazies do the *same thing* that's been done for at least 10+ years. There's nothing new. And, I really think that the demographics of Duke students today, compared to 10+ years ago, is definitely different. Just look at the online, social networking stuff going on. Add to that, that college education today is *much* more competitive that it was, and the typical Duke student is not now as invested in Duke basketball as before. One of my cousin's daughters applied to Duke in mid-1990's just to be a part of the Cameron Crazies... *only* reason Duke was her first choice (she ended up at Columbia... not accepted to Duke, much to her disappointment). I remember, when I first became an avid Duke basketball fan, I watched the Duke home games as much for the Cameron Crazies as for the game. There always seem to have been something to laugh about. But recently, only the "same old stuff".

So... maybe the current Crazies are not as "invested", and therefore not as spontaneous as in the past... and if they do what the "think" they should be doing... well... that's "how it is", I guess... :confused:

You touch on what I've assumed (purely based on gut/opinion, with no backing data) when I hear about the issue:

The makeup of the student body has probably changed significantly over the past decade. With applications increasing and a higher quality pool to draw from (and thus greater selectivity), it could be that nowadays more of the students who are accepted are more academically focused than in the past, and less likely to want to spend a lot of time investing in basketball.

On the flip side, it seems to take less of a time commitment now to get non-premium seats due to all the open spots. Say 2.5 hours per game instead of 5+.

Also, I'd be curious how other non-academic activities on campus compare to the past: Greek/selective houses and corresponding activities, IM teams, musical groups, religious groups, etc. Do Duke students still find the same amount of time, interest, and dedication to these pursuits?

rsvman
02-02-2012, 10:56 AM
Not that it should affect cheering for the team one way or the other, but when I look at the students nowadays it looks like they thought they were going to a taping of "Let's Make A Deal".

Perhaps, but there's always been a lot of "random" at Cameron.

Mhgraham
02-02-2012, 11:00 AM
This article has to fire up the crazies who are leaving early at halftime, not coming, etc. I have wanted to say that the crowd has been dismal this season since the beginning of the season. I expect/hope we will see a filled seats for Miami because of how embarissing this article was for the "greatest student section ever."

killerleft
02-02-2012, 12:21 PM
Perhaps, but there's always been a lot of "random" at Cameron.

Not really, at least not in the wardrobe department. There have always been a few, and they stood out and looked cool. But (perhaps somebody could help me out) sometime in the mid-to late 90s, all those blue, gray, and white t-shirts with the block-letter "DUKE" on them started to be replaced with the garb that is standard today. Until that happened it was actually cool just to be "a Duke student in Cameron".

Duvall
02-02-2012, 12:22 PM
Not really, at least not in the wardrobe department. There have always been a few, and they stood out and looked cool. But (perhaps somebody could help me out) sometime in the mid-to late 90s, all those blue, gray, and white t-shirts with the block-letter "DUKE" on them started to be replaced with the garb that is standard today. Until that happened it was actually cool just to be "a Duke student in Cameron".

Why does that matter, even a little?

cf-62
02-02-2012, 12:42 PM
Okay,

Everybody be honest with yourself - and answer this question:
When was the last time the crazies made you laugh?

If you answer that honestly, you get at the heart of the real problem.

I feel the need to quote Al McGuire: "This place is a zoo!" Guess what. If you could say that about Cameron today, you'd likely be referring to a set of students wearing animal costumes to the game.

MulletMan
02-02-2012, 12:47 PM
Okay,

Everybody be honest with yourself - and answer this question:
When was the last time the crazies made you laugh?

If you answer that honestly, you get at the heart of the real problem.

I feel the need to quote Al McGuire: "This place is a zoo!" Guess what. If you could say that about Cameron today, you'd likely be referring to a set of students wearing animal costumes to the game.

Saturday against St. John's when an undergrad was dressed as Jesus with a sign over his head that read, "No... I'M God's Gift."

Then again in the second half when he parted the Grad Students and DUMB during a FT distraction.

Oh... was that not on TV or quoted in the NY Times? My bad.

How about we get off the backs of a bunch of 19 year-olds and be honest with ourselves... why is this such a big deal to a bunch of adults who may or may not have ever attended Duke? Can it be better in Cameron? Probably. Are there kids trying to make it so? Probably. Will constantly being told that you suck eventually make you want to stop trying? Probably.

cf-62
02-02-2012, 12:52 PM
The makeup of the student body has probably changed significantly over the past decade. With applications increasing and a higher quality pool to draw from (and thus greater selectivity), it could be that nowadays more of the students who are accepted are more academically focused than in the past...

That argument is total garbage. While we know that the 70s and 80s marked a bigger party atmosphere, it was in the scope of work hard, play hard - not an all out party school. I also haven't looked at stats, but I don't think a higher percentage of today's students go on to grad school - and we had just as many "gotta get into Med/Law/Biz school or else" students back then. If we're getting more selective, then you would assume that the students being accepted have even harder to craft "resumes" than we did - that 4 extracurricular activities won't cut it. If you could do Key - and Beta - and Student Council - and Track - and Honor Society - and Choir - and Yearbook in high school, then spending 3 hours at a basketball game isn't going to cramp your success.

You know the thing that really ticks me off most about this argument, though? They sit and watch the game on their tv's and online. So it ain't about the time. It's really about a lack of pride, effort, and dedication to something that is extremely important to many alumni.

This isn't about basketball. The basketball team will succeed or fail based on the funding it receives and our coaching staff & players.

This is strictly about pride in a Duke Institution. Would you let the Primate Center close? How about the Med Center? Would you stop Handel's Messiah from being performed every year?

Cameron Indoor Stadium is of similar ilk. Oh sure, it may not be as culturally relevant outside of basketball fans "dahhhling" - but there is no doubt that Cameron IS Duke University.

cf-62
02-02-2012, 12:53 PM
Saturday against St. John's when an undergrad was dressed as Jesus with a sign over his head that read, "No... I'M God's Gift."

Then again in the second half when he parted the Grad Students and DUMB during a FT distraction.

Oh... was that not on TV or quoted in the NY Times? My bad.

How about we get off the backs of a bunch of 19 year-olds and be honest with ourselves... why is this such a big deal to a bunch of adults who may or may not have ever attended Duke? Can it be better in Cameron? Probably. Are there kids trying to make it so? Probably. Will constantly being told that you suck eventually make you want to stop trying? Probably.

I was there - didn't see any of that.

Duvall
02-02-2012, 12:58 PM
Okay,

Everybody be honest with yourself - and answer this question:
When was the last time the crazies made you laugh?

If you answer that honestly, you get at the heart of the real problem.

What problem? It's a basketball crowd, not a comedy troupe.

The Gordog
02-02-2012, 01:07 PM
Saturday against St. John's when an undergrad was dressed as Jesus with a sign over his head that read, "No... I'M God's Gift."

Then again in the second half when he parted the Grad Students and DUMB during a FT distraction.

Oh... was that not on TV or quoted in the NY Times? My bad.

How about we get off the backs of a bunch of 19 year-olds and be honest with ourselves... why is this such a big deal to a bunch of adults who may or may not have ever attended Duke? Can it be better in Cameron? Probably. Are there kids trying to make it so? Probably. Will constantly being told that you suck eventually make you want to stop trying? Probably.

+1

I'm not sure what year it was, but in my day (1983-86 seasons) we got shirts that quoted Ken Denlinger of the Washington Post, who said that Duke students were "Majoring in smart-[redacted]". So there is a long tradition of big "liberal" papers busting our students. Whatever.

Personally, if I was a student I probably would not want to take the time to paint myself blue for every game. I imagine it takes a while to clean up afterwards. Perhaps some feel that if they aren't blue they should not go. I say as long as your yelling voice is in shape you should be there.

cf-62
02-02-2012, 01:10 PM
What problem? It's a basketball crowd, not a comedy troupe.

I can't believe you're seriously asking this question, so I assume you are simply being adversarial (matching your previous notes). If you don't think wit and humor are hallmarks of CIS, then you're kidding yourself over what the Cameron experience really is. If I want a loud, boisterous crowd that cares heart and soul what happens to their team on the court, I'll go over to Raleigh. At least they fill their student sections.

Cameron is not the Duke version of Haas, or Gample, or Crisler, ... WE ARE THE STANDARD. To make an argument that "it's a basketball crowd" means you either don't get it, or you are intentionally being adversarial.

CrazyNotCrazie
02-02-2012, 01:13 PM
Most of the most creative aspects of Cameron are not visible to us sitting home watching the game on TV. However, from home you can get a good sense of the volume and level of enthusiasm, and usually we can read reports of particularly creative cheers on DBR from someone who made it to the game. If undergrads don't want to fill the seats, I would prefer the extras be given to grad students than sold to alums - optically it looks a lot better to have a grad student in the student section than a gray hair (no offense - I'll be one soon myself).

This might have been discussed on other threads, but what pains me almost as much as the empty seats is the lack of interest of many of those who are there. During the St. John's game, I saw multiple crowd shots where there were a bunch of students staring at their iphones rather than watching the game. I guess I would rather they be there not paying attention than having more empty seats, but they really should put the phones away for two hours and savor the moment.

This week's game against Miami should be a good test for the Crazies. This article and other bad press should provide some inspiration. And though I have a lot of respect for Coach Larranaga and what he is trying to do at Miami, the scandals of the last year with the rogue booster should provide a lot of fodder.

Duvall
02-02-2012, 01:21 PM
This is strictly about pride in a Duke Institution. Would you let the Primate Center close? How about the Med Center? Would you stop Handel's Messiah from being performed every year?

Cameron Indoor Stadium is of similar ilk. Oh sure, it may not be as culturally relevant outside of basketball fans "dahhhling" - but there is no doubt that Cameron IS Duke University.

It really isn't, though. (The Medical Center is a tad bit more important.) If the current students want to build new institutions, new traditions instead of trying to maintain the old ones, what difference does it make?

It's just a game. Actually, it's not a game - it's people *attending* a game. If that's more than one tiny facet of a complex institution, it really doesn't speak well of Duke.

MulletMan
02-02-2012, 02:11 PM
I was there - didn't see any of that.

Wait... you didn't see a guy dressed up as Jesus stand on the floor (not the court, but the floor) under a basket where a FT was about to occur? And you didn't see a coordinated movement of roughly 500 people who split down the middle behind said basket during said FT? And you missed the loud cheer when the FT missed? And you missed said Jesus taking a bow between FTs?

Well, if the criticizers are unable to notice the amusement that they're asking for, what exactly can these kids do?

cf-62
02-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Wait... you didn't see a guy dressed up as Jesus stand on the floor (not the court, but the floor) under a basket where a FT was about to occur? And you didn't see a coordinated movement of roughly 500 people who split down the middle behind said basket during said FT? And you missed the loud cheer when the FT missed? And you missed said Jesus taking a bow between FTs?

Well, if the criticizers are unable to notice the amusement that they're asking for, what exactly can these kids do?

I really didn't. And honestly, nobody around me saw it either. We sit directly across from it, too. I would have thought that to be funny, so would have reset my "laugh clock" :-)

Now I know why I missed it - I always watch the tubas - I do now remember the tubas "parting" but totally missed Jesus - and the fact that other fans also parted.

UrinalCake
02-02-2012, 02:37 PM
Al Featherston was on the local radio station a couple days ago discussing the issue and brought up a lot of the same points that have been discussed here:

- Student body has changed: not only is Duke more academically focused but the number of international students has grown considerably, it now makes up something like 20-25% of the student body. These students as a whole tend to not be as interested in basketball.
- Technology: why spend several hours going to the game when you can watch online or on a high-def TV?
- Spoiled by success: after going undefeated at home for two straight years, students assume we're going to win and don't get fired up for non-marquee games. In the early years (mid to late 80's) Duke was just coming into prominence while UNC and State were established programs, so students had more of a chip on their shoulder.

He also brought up a good point that attendance is down across the entire country, not just at Duke. He mentioned a couple other games among top programs on National TV in which you could see scores of empty seats.

cf-62
02-02-2012, 02:40 PM
Let's change the timbre of the thread a little bit.

What are your favorite Cameron moments?

My two absolute favorites are:

Chris Washburn game - at player intro, the air was thick with record covers, record jackets, records, walkmen, and headphones. To this day, an image that will never escape me
Olden Polynice game - he had skipped the previous year simply to avoid Cameron


And we had one game, the year Duke Basketball in the modern era was put on the map where we played a top 10 GT team that had beaten us by 7 in Atlanta. We won by 15, but it was one of those "Jet Engine" games for noise. The student reporter from Tech was sitting in front of us, and about half way through the second half, she wrote in her notes "why are we even here?" It was the first time I ever experienced the high of the over the top noise levels in Cameron.

The rest of mine, in no particular order are:

Sneaker-gate (NC State) - hundreds of high tops showered from the stands
Lorenzo Charles Pizza Gate (NC State) seems to be a pattern here - pizza boxes flooded the air
Spud Webb Taters (NC State) - this one wasn't mean spirited, tossing potatos on the floor for Spud Webb
Dennis Scott Twinkies - After losing 50 pounds or so, being showered with Twinkies
Steve Hale- In-Hale, Ex-Hale: bordering on mean spirited, but Hale had a good attitude about it, so was funny
Pat Sullivan - Oh No, Not Sullivan (the original Oh No... cheer)
Rick Fox - Rick's Got a big ol' butt, oh yeahh

Reisen
02-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Cameron jumped the shark the moment they put in air conditioning. It's never been the same since.:rolleyes:

Steven43
02-02-2012, 02:49 PM
'Casey Sanders!' 'Colonel Sanders!'.......'Casey Sanders!' 'Colonel Sanders!'

I was there for that one, and it was awesome. I'll always remember the target of that chant, Nigel Dixon ('Colonel Sanders'), laughing along with us good-naturedly. It was a special moment.

throatybeard
02-02-2012, 05:08 PM
How about we get off the backs of a bunch of 19 year-olds and be honest with ourselves... why is this such a big deal to a bunch of adults who may or may not have ever attended Duke?

This. ^

This really cuts to the heart of the matter as far as the discourse on the board. Everybody's got their right to an opinion, but I can't understand why what the nineteen year-olds at Duke do or do not do is such a huge deal to anyone who has been out of college more than about three years. Those first couple seasons, if you went to Duke, you're still getting your head out of undergrad-land, but the degree of opprobrium (here and on FaceBook) that I'm seeing from people my age or older just baffles me. I don't know about everybody, but for me, my kid, my mortgage, my job security, my cholesterol, peak oil, and the general state of the world are much bigger concerns than whether some nineteen year-olds were hilarious enough at a basketball game.

Something I think some of us forget, when we make these grand pronouncements about how if the kids don't want to be there then we would be there in a second, is what a physical toll being a hardcore Crazy takes on the body. Really doing it like it's "supposed to be done." I mean really, jumping and screaming and sweating for two and a half hours takes a lot out of you. When you're nineteen, you bounce back quickly. But my last season in gradskool, when I was 27, that whole deal was getting to be a pain in the butt. Well really, the lower back. I'm 35, and If I tried to do that now, I'd pass out or have an infarction. You know when I stopped giving 110% at games, maybe except for the Carolina game? After Maryland in 2001, I had to teach the next day, with no voice. That's a fail.

Please let up on the kids. Or at least, can we have one active thread complaining about them instead of two or three?

Cell-R
02-02-2012, 05:10 PM
You know the thing that really ticks me off most about this argument, though? They sit and watch the game on their tv's and online. So it ain't about the time. It's really about a lack of pride, effort, and dedication to something that is extremely important to many alumni.


I know many, many students who don't even watch the game on TV.

I would argue that yes, Duke academics are most certainly harder than they used to be, but the biggest time sucker is the extra-curricular activities needed to be a competitive applicant to a grad. school. (Internships, research, clinical experience, student groups) Putting "Cameron Crazie" on an application, while it definitely shows devotion, isn't going to prove that you'll make a better lawyer, doctor, or businessman.

It's not easy to balance school, extra-curriculars, and basketball. I'm trying to do it right now. Or maybe it's just harder for me because I can't stand not being on the front row...

As for the "pride" factor, attendance at a sporting event does not necessarily correlate to the amount of "pride" a Duke student has for his or her school. There are plenty of other ways to be proud of Duke, make an effort to support Duke, and be dedicated to Duke without being in Cameron Indoor.

It may not seem like it from this post, but I am a pretty dedicated Cameron Crazie. I also happen to know that there is much, much more that goes on at Duke outside of Cameron than inside it, and that a basketball game cannot trump your activities that will prepare you for the rest of your life. If you can manage both, then great, but I think that comparing Duke students now vs. Duke students 10, 20, 30 years ago is comparing apples to oranges. We can see clearly from this message board that Duke students then had different values than Duke students now.

Either way, I would absolutely love for Cameron to be filled to the brim, but I think it is unfair to associate student's lack of willingness to go to basketball games with their lack of pride and devotion to the University. Duke is known primarily as an academic school now.

MulletMan
02-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Something I think some of us forget, when we make these grand pronouncements about how if the kids don't want to be there then we would be there in a second, is what a physical toll being a hardcore Crazy takes on the body. Really doing it like it's "supposed to be done." I mean really, jumping and screaming and sweating for two and a half hours takes a lot out of you.

This right here, is a stone cold fact. Everyone wants to sit here and say they could do it better, but let me tell you that every home game for an entire season... if you're doing what we did... is a grind.

MulletMan
02-02-2012, 05:22 PM
I know many, many students who don't even watch the game on TV.

I would argue that yes, Duke academics are most certainly harder than they used to be, but the biggest time sucker is the extra-curricular activities needed to be a competitive applicant to a grad. school. (Internships, research, clinical experience, student groups) Putting "Cameron Crazie" on an application, while it definitely shows devotion, isn't going to prove that you'll make a better lawyer, doctor, or businessman.

It's not easy to balance school, extra-curriculars, and basketball. I'm trying to do it right now. Or maybe it's just harder for me because I can't stand not being on the front row...

As for the "pride" factor, attendance at a sporting event does not necessarily correlate to the amount of "pride" a Duke student has for his or her school. There are plenty of other ways to be proud of Duke, make an effort to support Duke, and be dedicated to Duke without being in Cameron Indoor.

It may not seem like it from this post, but I am a pretty dedicated Cameron Crazie. I also happen to know that there is much, much more that goes on at Duke outside of Cameron than inside it, and that a basketball game cannot trump your activities that will prepare you for the rest of your life. If you can manage both, then great, but I think that comparing Duke students now vs. Duke students 10, 20, 30 years ago is comparing apples to oranges. We can see clearly from this message board that Duke students then had different values than Duke students now.

Either way, I would absolutely love for Cameron to be filled to the brim, but I think it is unfair to associate student's lack of willingness to go to basketball games with their lack of pride and devotion to the University. Duke is known primarily as an academic school now.

Your post is dead on for a number of reasons.

Unfortunately, you are going to get skewered for this comment. Good luck.

cf-62
02-02-2012, 05:38 PM
I know many, many students who don't even watch the game on TV.

Blasphemy :-)


It may not seem like it from this post, but I am a pretty dedicated Cameron Crazie.

I believe you - just like, believe it or not, I'm extremely proud of our beloved alma mater, its alumni, the institution, and our current student body for things that have absolutely nothing to do with basketball. And at times, I wonder just how much value is left in scholastic sports for Duke.

But in this venue (called DBR), how the current batch of students perform in Cameron is definitely fair game.

blazindw
02-02-2012, 05:41 PM
I would argue that yes, Duke academics are most certainly harder than they used to be, but the biggest time sucker is the extra-curricular activities needed to be a competitive applicant to a grad. school. (Internships, research, clinical experience, student groups) Putting "Cameron Crazie" on an application, while it definitely shows devotion, isn't going to prove that you'll make a better lawyer, doctor, or businessman.

I would disagree with the bold part of this statement. Being a Cameron Crazie (and LM and HLM) is exactly what makes me a better lawyer. Not just for the passion reasons, but the fact is I can manage my time better than 99% of lawyers out there, and I know how to work hard and still enjoy life, to be on time for things and, of course, making sure I don't miss a single game on TV or in person. I have scheduling my free time around K-Ville to thank for that. Plus, it's always a conversation starter on any interview, whether the interviewer loves or hates Duke.


Your post is dead on for a number of reasons.

Unfortunately, you are going to get skewered for this comment. Good luck.

Hopefully I didn't break out the kabobs on this one.

sagegrouse
02-02-2012, 05:54 PM
I know many, many students who don't even watch the game on TV.

I would argue that yes, Duke academics are most certainly harder than they used to be, but the biggest time sucker is the extra-curricular activities needed to be a competitive applicant to a grad. school. (Internships, research, clinical experience, student groups) Putting "Cameron Crazie" on an application, while it definitely shows devotion, isn't going to prove that you'll make a better lawyer, doctor, or businessman.

It's not easy to balance school, extra-curriculars, and basketball. I'm trying to do it right now. Or maybe it's just harder for me because I can't stand not being on the front row...



With respect to time pressures, let me offer the point that Duke averages 16 home games a year in hoops, several of which occur while school is not in session. So, say 12. That seems like 24 to 36 hours of fun and enjoyment spread over four months. I don't get it. It seems to me, either you are really into college hoops or you aren't. Me, several decades ago, I was into college hoops, and so I went to the games.

Now, if the argument is that it is a 4-5 hour time commitment, due to the lines and difficulty of getting in, then the calculus is different. But there seems to be "space available" in Cameron, judging from the other comments here.

sagegrouse

Cell-R
02-02-2012, 10:32 PM
Hopefully I didn't break out the kabobs on this one.

No, your comment was definitely fair! Seeing as I'm still in school, I can only go off of what I've been told about getting a job, and it's quite possible that my pre-conceived notions deviate from the reality. Perhaps being a devoted Crazie does, in fact, carry more weight than I thought it did. Maybe that's another part of the problem, because I think a large portion of the Duke students see their other "activities" as more valuable to their long range plan.

I'm not trying to stick up for students who have the free time, or could make the free time to go to games, only the ones who would truly overcommit themselves by spending that time at games...

As for the fact that students can get into Cameron right up until tip-off, I wonder if they know that? I haven't talked to many about this, but could it just be the fact that they don't know that they don't have to wait for hours to get into the games? I'm sure all they've heard are stories of people waiting for hours upon hours and sleeping out overnight on the sidewalk for games... I just wonder, if they aren't signed up for the Crazies listserv, if they know the reality. I can definitely do my part by making it clear to all of my friends that they don't have to sleep out overnight to get into most games.

Sorry, I'm just frustrated with both sides. The students who could go to games, but don't (although I understand some of their sentiments), as well as the fact that the constant "skewering" of the Crazies has begun to take the fun out of attending games at Cameron. The thing is, I understand both sides of the argument. I'm beginning to realize the only thing to do is for us to work as hard as we can to make Cameron legendary again. It will not be the same as it was in the 80s and 90s, but then again, since when was Cameron known for being a static, unchanging place?

devildeac
02-02-2012, 10:44 PM
Wait... you didn't see a guy dressed up as Jesus stand on the floor (not the court, but the floor) under a basket where a FT was about to occur? And you didn't see a coordinated movement of roughly 500 people who split down the middle behind said basket during said FT? And you missed the loud cheer when the FT missed? And you missed said Jesus taking a bow between FTs?

Well, if the criticizers are unable to notice the amusement that they're asking for, what exactly can these kids do?

Maybe Native (Jesus) can turn water into whine when unc visits?

Native
02-02-2012, 10:54 PM
Maybe Native (Jesus) can turn water into whine when unc visits?

I think there'll be enough whine in Cameron that day to begin with. :p