MBB: Duke 83, St. John's 76 Post Game Thread

[Bob Green]

The five freshmen were a tough out. Discuss the game here.

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Tucknut]

Harkless doesn't shake hands with Coach K. Classy guy...

[Bob Green]

Harkless doesn't shake hands with Coach K. Classy guy...

I didn't notice that, but I did see him slam the ball off the court in frustration as time expired. Perhaps the young man has some anger management issues which need worked through.

[DukeBlueHeart4]

St. John's did exactly what they needed to do in the second half. They weren't quite as foul happy, got tougher on the boards, and seriously limited our ability to go inside to Mason. We made some silly errors throughout the game. In the future I think we need to focus on controlling the ball a little better, helping on defense, and not letting ourselves get rattled when the shots don't fall.

[Duvall]

Harkless doesn't shake hands with Coach K. Classy guy...

I don't think that's true. He definitely didn't blow Krzyzewski off.

[Bluedog]

Harkless doesn't shake hands with Coach K. Classy guy...

He shook his hand. I just watched it again on slow motion. Put his hand out, just couldn't see the actually exchange since a camera was blocking their hands.

Overall, disappointing that we let a 22-point slip away and had to knock down free throws to get the victory. But a win is a win, I suppose. It's been good to see Mason be a force the past couple of game. We really need to exploit those mismatches and try to get him more touches in the post. Austin's aggressiveness on getting to the rack is great and he has some nice finishes, but the decisions in transition perhaps could improve. Curry's stroke has been off lately; I thought we settled for too many 3s this game when we clearly had the advantage on the interior. Our defense again was not very good; especially help side D. We're lucky they shot poorly from 3 for the majority of the game; they were 1-11 before going on a 4-9 streak. Our offense shows some promise for sure and we have the capacity to be a really good team, but our defensive struggles continued unfortunately. I personally like have Miles in the lineup as he has shown some good defensive skills and doesn't back down. Kelly just doesn't have the strength of Miles in my opinion, although Kelly certainly brings some positives on the offensive end. We obviously need to improve our defense if we want to be a Final Four contender.

[SupaDave]

The team had a total of 15 assists. Not bad at all. I think if this team can tighten up their execution then K would let them loose.

30 and 13 from Harkless is a beast move. He had his mind made up but one man can't beat 5 and Duke played as a team today.

[_Gary]

I didn't notice that, but I did see him slam the ball off the court in frustration as time expired. Perhaps the young man has some anger management issues which need worked through.

It's funny you put it that way, Bob, because that is literally what my daughter said when he slammed the ball down. :D

[RoyalBlue08]

I can't remember hearing K that negative on the radio after a win. I also couldn't agree more. Sometimes team can be proud of how they fought after a loss, but the lack of effort for Duke in large stretches today was disheartening. I hope the guys can use this as motivation to increase their focus and toughness going forward. I have a feeling they are in for a tough week of practice.

[BlueDGal]

coach k just spoke to bob Harris. He was very unhappy with the last 10 min........I've never heard him sound like that. He was almost whispering.....very, very upset.

[DesertDevil]

I didn't notice that, but I did see him slam the ball off the court in frustration as time expired. Perhaps the young man has some anger management issues which need worked through.

Meh, seen worse reactions. I'll give the kid a bit of slack on this one. He played his butt off trying to bring his team back & they came up short.

[RockyMtDevil]

We almost got Bootsied by Harckless

[NM Duke Fan]

He shook his hand. I just watched it again on slow motion. Put his hand out, just couldn't see the actually exchange since a camera was blocking their hands.

Overall, disappointing that we let a 22-point slip away and had to knock down free throws to get the victory. But a win is a win, I suppose. It's been good to see Mason be a force the past couple of game. We really need to exploit those mismatches and try to get him more touches in the post. Austin's aggressiveness on getting to the rack is great and he has some nice finishes, but the decisions in transition perhaps could improve. Curry's stroke has been off lately; I thought we settled for too many 3s this game when we clearly had the advantage on the interior. Our defense again was not very good; especially help side D. We're lucky they shot poorly from 3 for the majority of the game; they were 1-11 before going on a 4-9 streak. Our offense shows some promise for sure and we have the capacity to be a really good team, but our defensive struggles continued unfortunately. I personally like have Miles in the lineup as he has shown some good defensive skills and doesn't back down. Kelly just doesn't have the strength of Miles in my opinion, although Kelly certainly brings some positives on the offensive end. We obviously need to improve our defense if we want to be a Final Four contender.

In preseason I mentioned that defense by the guards was my biggest concern, and that hasn't changed. Regarding your last sentence, I would say that we obviously need to improve our defense if we want to make it into the sweet sixteen.

[Bluealum]

coach k just spoke to bob Harris. He was very unhappy with the last 10 min........I've never heard him sound like that. He was almost whispering.....very, very upset.

There are three guys on this team that appear to show up in every game. They may struggle or be off, but you can see a fire in them.

Mason Plumlee
Austin Rivers
Tyler Thornton

I salute those guys for bringing the energy. The crowd and the rest of the guys are just hit and miss this year so far. That more than anything has got to be frustrating for Coach K.

[diveonthefloor]

A whole lot to criticize in this win.

Horrible ball handling. Poor freshman decisions. Leaky perimeter defense.
Mediocre (or worse) foul shooting.

K probably has heartburn thinking about the dumb mistakes from a relatively listless team on the last ten minutes.

Good think it's still January.

[stixof96]

this team better get real or they will be blown out when march comes........you can penetrate the lane in a wheel chair against this defense..........it's that bad........total lack of effort going down the stretch today........coach k needs to go to the whip with this bunch......

[Duvall]

A whole lot to criticize in this win.

Horrible ball handling. Poor freshman decisions. Leaky perimeter defense.
Mediocre (or worse) foul shooting.

Hey!





Free throw shooting was fine (76.2%)

[marinbobbyduhon]

There are three guys on this team that appear to show up in every game. They may struggle or be off, but you can see a fire in them.

Mason Plumlee
Austin Rivers
Tyler Thornton

I salute those guys for bringing the energy. The crowd and the rest of the guys are just hit and miss this year so far. That more than anything has got to be frustrating for Coach K.

Do you have some kind of meter attached to your monitor that let's you know when a player has shown up for the game? I would like to get one of those, if you do.

I don't think every player physically shows you the fire within. I think that Seth is one of those guys who is there every game. Miles and Ryan, too.

Now the team defense isn't what I would hope it to be, but I am sure that Coach K is working hard for them to get it.

[KandG]

coach k just spoke to bob Harris. He was very unhappy with the last 10 min........I've never heard him sound like that. He was almost whispering.....very, very upset.

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

[Saratoga2]

Just before the half and then continuing through the second half, St John turned up the defensive pressure and were aggressive on offense as well. We seemed to be rattled by the intensity and got beat to loose balls and rebounds. Our shooting also went cold. It wasn't until the game got really close that I think coach K got their attention and we also started to play with intensity. We made a lot of silly mistakes caused by the pressure and we weren't able to get into the paint as easily. It's a win, but a disappointing one. Every team seems to have people who have their best games against us. It has to be our defense.

[roywhite]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

Yet the team is 18-3, tied for first place in the ACC, won the Maui Tournament, has played a tough schedule, and is ranked in the Top 10.

This IMO is a perfect example of how legitimate criticisms of this team's performance are sometimes made without the perspective of the overall record, and how some fans are spoiled by the past achievements of Duke teams.

[HDB]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Thinking back to Maui I really felt optimistic about this team's chances to develop into a very good team. It seems like since that point we've regressed. Not sure why this is happening. Good thing there is still the entire month of February to get better --- just wish I was seeing some signs that that was a possibility.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.


I wouldn't be so hard on them. Sure the last 10 minutes were nail biting. St. John's had all the momentum and Harkless/Harrison seemed to be making everything, but what I've learned is that when you're on the road and you're losing by so much, you tend to lighten up because you have nothing to lose. Especially as freshmen, they just started playing basketball and started hitting shots; all of a sudden, we're the team that has all of the pressure on them. I still think this team has potential. The good thing is, we have these learning experiences, but along the way we get to 18-3. Not too shabby.

I don't know if were good enough this year to get to a Final Four, but if you took this crew next year minus Miles, we have a good shot. I think we need to develop Mike Gbinije. He just looks like a competitor and he can guard multiple positions. I want to see this kid get minutes before the season is done to get him a little more expereince going into next year.

[RoyalBlue08]

Yet the team is 18-3, tied for first place in the ACC, won the Maui Tournament, has played a tough schedule, and is ranked in the Top 10.

This IMO is a perfect example of how legitimate criticisms of this team's performance are sometimes made without the perspective of the overall record, and how some fans are spoiled by the past achievements of Duke teams.

I don't agree with a lot of the posters that think the are fundamental flaws in the make up our team and what they can achieve. I do think I have been spoiled by past Duke teams though. What I witnessed today was not Duke basketball.

[hq2]

they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

That's a little strong. Certainly, an upsettable team, but one that could sneak into the final
four too with the right bracket. They played O.K. today for about 30 minutes, then just sort
of hung on down the stretch. Nice ball movement in the first 30 minutes. However, going the
last 6 and a half minutes without a field goal won't get it done in the NCAAs., free throw
shooting regardless. Andre was O.K. from 3 point range, Mason played strong against a
less than imposing front line. D in the second half was clearly not that good.

[Kedsy]

But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

Hey, off-topic, but where'd you get your crystal ball? I'd love to get one, as long as it's not too expensive. Or do you use a ouija board? Chicken entrails?

In my opinion, Duke is a better team, right now, than all four of last year's Final Four teams. Even at tournament time, I don't think too many people expected any of those teams to get that far. So you never know what's going to happen, or at least I don't. Perhaps you do, which is why I'm asking about your future-viewing device.


But they keep blowing leads...

To my knowledge, the only game in which we've blown a lead was the Florida State game. And that lead was never bigger than 9 (and that only once, near the end of the first half; it reached 8 briefly in the middle of the 2nd half). They've let a few other leads dwindle, but they didn't "blow" any of those. Other than Florida State, they won them all.

In today's game, Coach K may not have been pleased with our effort in the last 10 minutes, but that wasn't when the lead dwindled. In a three minute stretch just before that (from 12:39 to 9:48), the lead dropped from 19 to 10, after that it bounced from a bit better than 10 to a bit worse than 10, until it ended with us winning by 7. That doesn't sound like "blowing a lead" to me.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

I love every player, love their effort, love to see them develop. But they keep blowing leads, keep experiencing facepalm moments, allow just about any overmatched team a chance. I wonder whether they'll eventually take the next step forward, or whether that happens next year. Most of the second half today was just awful.


I wouldn't be so hard on them. Sure the last 10 minutes were nail biting. St. John's had all the momentum and Harkless/Harrison seemed to be making everything, but what I've learned is that when you're on the road and you're losing by so much, you tend to lighten up because you have nothing to lose. Especially as freshmen, they just started playing basketball and started hitting shots; all of a sudden, we're the team that has all of the pressure on them. I still think this team has potential. The good thing is, we have these learning experiences, but along the way we get to 18-3. Not too shabby.

I don't know if were good enough this year to get to a Final Four, but if you took this crew next year minus Miles, we have a good shot. I think we need to develop Mike Gbinije. He just looks like a competitor and he can guard multiple positions. I want to see this kid get minutes before the season is done to get him a little more expereince going into next year.

[throatybeard]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui. There are obviously years that are rebuilding years, or years where there's more ups and downs because of the mix of young guys and veterans. Or there's just a glaring hole once in a while (no big man, no PG). But this is such a sub-optimal mix of talent (shooting guards that aren't physical enough, only one elite shot creator with wild ups and downs who's learning on the fly, bigs that play hard but make questionable decisions of their own, bad perimeter defense, etc etc) that they seem a certainty to go out in the first weekend of the tournament.

Certainty. I was pretty certain Virginia Commonwealth wouldn't survive the first weekend last year. Jay Bilas, too.

[Saratoga2]

There are three guys on this team that appear to show up in every game. They may struggle or be off, but you can see a fire in them.

Mason Plumlee
Austin Rivers
Tyler Thornton

I salute those guys for bringing the energy. The crowd and the rest of the guys are just hit and miss this year so far. That more than anything has got to be frustrating for Coach K.

I agree with your 3 bringing it. On the other hand, I think Seth had a so-so game until the last couple of minutes, where he seemed to pick it up. Like coach K said, we didn't finish well around the basket. Miles and Ryan in particular had a lot of opportunities in close but couldn't finish those. There isn't a need for a shakeup, just a need for self realization of our players. They have to play with intensity and intelligence to be a special team.

[FerryFor50]

That is what's maddening about this team. Good enough to beat top 10 teams and lead in games by 20+ points. Bad enough to lose to Temple and give up those 20+ point leads.

[DBFAN]

Dont know how many of ya listened to the post game interview on the radio, but K said the team made more mistakes in the last 10 min than any other team he has ever had. I hope they don't let this kind of thing happen again. They just seem to lose focus so easily. Im sure they will get better at that

[weezie]

I can't remember hearing K that negative on the radio after a win....I have a feeling they are in for a tough week of practice.

Sometimes young teen-aged men act just that way, like teenagers. Their skulls are pretty thick. It looked as if they responded to K's tirades during the time outs for at least a few plays but then the dopey decisions began to add up again.

[arnie]

Do you have some kind of meter attached to your monitor that let's you know when a player has shown up for the game? I would like to get one of those, if you do.

I don't think every player physically shows you the fire within. I think that Seth is one of those guys who is there every game. Miles and Ryan, too.

Now the team defense isn't what I would hope it to be, but I am sure that Coach K is working hard for them to get it.

I don't think effort is the problem at all. We just don't match up defensively with a lot of teams. Kelly can't possibly keep up with quick forwards and we don't have another player that can. The group of guards simply aren't great defenders either. Mason, IMO, is by far our best defender.

We'll win games cause of our offense this year.

[NYBri]

We are spoiled, I'm afraid. We have had some amazing teams and amazing player step up.

This year's team is very talented, but there is no Nolan...no Scheyer...no face of the team...no heart of the team...no sense that there is a leader who refuses to lose.

That's not a complaint, just an observation and a potential reason we play without focus for long stretches.

I like a lot of the players on this squad, but I am having trouble getting a sense of its personality.

Lack of defense is a real problem and its going to be an issue big time come March.

[CLW]

the crowd was awful today

the team's effort/energy wasn't good either

the D once again got lit up for 47 in the 2nd half to the 180th best offense in the country

i'm starting to think at this point the team is what it is and very little will change the rest of the way

the scary part is (assuming MP2 and Rivers both bolt) we appear to be setup for the exact same team we have this year only with less talent

EDIT: K was/is really unhappy with the team's performance as well.

"To me, it was a loss today for me," "I didn't like today. And if my team doesn't like today, then we'll get better. If my team is OK about today, then we're going to fight a little bit, because I'm not going to change on this."

"We did enough to win, which almost makes me sick to say that," "I hate saying that we did enough to win. I mean, that's not who I am and not who this program is. You don't do `enough to win.' We play really good basketball, and then hopefully we win. But that's the story. ... I'm not pleased with today one bit. One bit."

[davekay1971]

I get it, I really do. During that stretch in the middle 10 minutes of the second half, I was grumbling/growling/cussin.

Let's keep it in perpective. As noted previously, we're talking about a team that lost it's top 3 scorers (ppg, not total points in the season, given Kyrie's shortened season) from last season, and 2 of those losses were absolutely dominant senior leaders. And yet this team has managed an 18-3 record against the toughest schedule in the nation and remains solidly in the top 10. So, why are we so frustrated?

1) Past seasons - obviously there's the whole 1986-now standard of excellence thing which feeds into our expectations. More importantly, I believe, there was the amazing and unexpected 2010 natty, then the 2011 season which was a roller coaster with the top-o-the-world beginning, the crushing loss of Kyrie, the exciting ride to the ACC championship without Kyrie and the number 1 seed with all the hope that we'd work Kyrie in for a run to the title...15 months of wild basketball emotions. The 2011-12 Devils are not only trying to reload/rebuild, but they're doing so after 2 of the wildest years in Duke history. It's a very hard recent history for this team to live up to. The 1995 team had it rougher...but that's about it.

2) Mental lapses - ie: the middle 10 minutes of the 2nd half today. That's something we're not used to with Duke, but it's a reality with this team. It's been discussed time and time again on DBR and many of us are confused and frustrated by it. Is it the lack of a clear emotional leader? A fairly softspoken (or at least not a demonstrative) upperclass? One too many grandbabies for Coach K to bounce on his knee? Nate-o-penia? Whatever the cause, it's a trait of the team and I suspect as frustrating for the guys in the jerseys as it is for us.

3) Hype/expectation - Obviously our bigs are performing about as well as we could have hoped and I see relatively less frustration on DBR boards about the performance of our bigs compared to the frustration aimed at the guards. The complaints I read boil down to: "Dre is inconsistent. Thornton fouls too much. Rivers isn't the Second Coming of Kyrie. Curry can't dribble. None of them can defend. Silent G is the answer, or maybe Cook is. Etc." The article about Dre, with his frank thoughts about his own lack of consistency, was illuminating in that the young man clearly is as frustrated and confused by his tendency to disappear as we are. Basically, we've got some very good players on the perimeter, but 2 true PGs who are limited (one by lack of offensive game no matter how big his heart, the other by youth and injury), and we don't have a lock down on-the-ball defender, and our most talented perimeter player is absolutely one of our best players but, unlike Kyrie, plays like a freshman. Essentially, we all see flaws in our perimeter at both ends of the court, but, tying into point number 1, those flaws may be related to our own expectations after having 2 years of Nolan/Scheyer then Nolan/Irving, as well as our expectations and hopes given the hype of Rivers and the expected maturation/development of Curry and hoped for increase in consistency in Dawkins. Basically, we had the preseason number 1 backcourt in the nation, and that feeds into our perception of how these talented but imperfect kids are performing.

4) Defense - we're Duke, we're used to cheering on a team that consistently plays high-pressure, intense defense. These guys don't. There's a misperception that defense is all about heart and effort. Bull. Most teams that take the court against us want it as badly as we do, but in most years our defense is better than our opponent's. A lot of defense is system, execution, and talent...along with heart, focus, and effort. Our perimeter defense is suffering, and we can argue about which factors are leading to it, but suffice it to say that we, the fans, aren't used to it. And, I believe, we get more frustrated than we probably should because WE believe it's just a matter of the guys trying harder.

In short, I think there's a high level of frustration with this team because of a combination of true flaws we're not used to (lapses in concentration, and poor perimeter defense) and perceptions that we are bringing to the table.

In my view this is a good team. I think their record backs it up. It's also a team that struggles on defense and struggles to play a consistent 40 minutes of basketball. I'd caution, however, against writing them off as doomed to fail in the first weekend of the tournament. First of all this team, today, could very easily make a run in the NCAAT. Secondly, there are a lot of games between now and the post-season, and the team may improve on some of these flaws. Even if they don't, however, I think we should always take that moment to reflect inwardly when we get frustrated and ask, how much of my frustration is coming from what these guys are doing on the court, and how much is coming from what I want/expect them to do?

As for today's game, it's another learning opportunity. The tape of the 2nd 10 minutes of the first half should show our guys how well they are capable of playing. The tape of minutes 15-end of the 2nd half should show them what happens when they lose their focus, even against an obviously inferior opponent.

[Kedsy]

Mason, IMO, is by far our best defender.

IMO, Mason isn't even the best defender in his own family.

[dukereport]

This team is definitely still trying to figure out who they are, coaches included. One game Andre is a bum, then the next he's dropping 20. Same can be said about Curry and the Plumlee's. Austin has to learn when to take over and when to make the extra pass. Defensively, we are slow-footed at most positions and that isn't going to change. That doesn't mean we can't play good team defense, but they are going to have to fight harder than they are now. With that said, we are no where near our ceiling, so I look to forward to seeing there growth for this rest of this season.

[Kedsy]

It's worth noting that on this weekend, two years ago, we got crushed by Georgetown. A lot of people said we'd be knocked out of the tournament in the first weekend. They weren't right.

[Atlanta Duke]

Dont know how many of ya listened to the post game interview on the radio, but K said the team made more mistakes in the last 10 min than any other team he has ever had. I hope they don't let this kind of thing happen again. They just seem to lose focus so easily. Im sure they will get better at that

Do not know if these are the radio interview quotes or not but K is not happy

“We did enough to win, which almost makes me sick to say that,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. “I hate saying that we did enough to win. That’s not who I am, and it’s not who this program is. We don’t do enough to win – we play really good basketball, and then hopefully we win." …

“I’m going to read all my books and see what I’m missing because there’s something missing,” he said. “It’s not resonating with our team.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/28/1813432/live-updates-duke-hosting-st-johns.html

[Kedsy]

One game Andre is a bum, then the next he's dropping 20.

One thing I've noticed about DBR (not singling you out) is that we often complain about things long after they cease to be issues.

Andre's last six games (scoring totals, most recent to less recent): 14, 3, 14, 21, 24, 10. This doesn't look like the one game on, one game off pattern that so many posters continue to talk about.

Will he turn around and lay an egg next game? I don't know. But I do know he's had five good games out of the last six, and that hardly seems something to complain about.

[wsb3]

Such a frustrating team to watch this year, especially since returning from Maui.

What has been most discouraging for me is it is almost February and I think we might have actually gone backwards since Maui. Their has been improvement individually. Mason has made huge strides offensively and with decision making. Rivers has learned to find the open man better when he drives. But as a team particularly defensively we really struggle. We can't decide who our point guard is and the lack of a true small forward in the line up has been a problem since we said bye to Kyle.

I know their are only so many minutes for the bigs but I love the toughness Miles brings to this team. 9 minutes...? Maybe their is a reason I am not aware of but we need him to play big if we are going to do anything constructive in March.

[dukereport]

One thing I've noticed about DBR (not singling you out) is that we often complain about things long after they cease to be issues.

Andre's last six games (scoring totals, most recent to less recent): 14, 3, 14, 21, 24, 10. This doesn't look like the one game on, one game off pattern that so many posters continue to talk about.

Will he turn around and lay an egg next game? I don't know. But I do know he's had five good games out of the last six, and that hardly seems something to complain about.

I don't disagree, he has been more consistent recently, but I was just generalizing our guys play over the entire season. I pick a POTG for every game at my site and its just amazing how its almost always a different person each game. Sometimes that can be a positive, I just wished everyone could string a good game at the same time. :)

[Kedsy]

I know their are only so many minutes for the bigs but I love the toughness Miles brings to this team. 9 minutes...? Maybe their is a reason I am not aware of but we need him to play big if we are going to do anything constructive in March.

Possibly because St. John's started five guards/small forwards? I noticed at least some of the time we countered St. John's lack of size by playing one big and four guards.

[Kedsy]

I don't disagree, he has been more consistent recently, but I was just generalizing our guys play over the entire season. I pick a POTG for every game at my site and its just amazing how its almost always a different person each game. Sometimes that can be a positive, I just wished everyone could string a good game at the same time. :)

Personally, I like the idea that different players step up in different games. And pretty much every game enough guys step up on the offensive end, even if as individuals they don't do it consistently. There's nothing wrong with our offense. If our defense this season was up to Duke standards, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[MartyClark]

It's worth noting that on this weekend, two years ago, we got crushed by Georgetown. A lot of people said we'd be knocked out of the tournament in the first weekend. They weren't right.

Good point. I can't predict tomorrow, let alone the 1st game of the tournament, but this team worries me. I don't think we have enough speed or ball handling ability to make a run. Our guards, other than Austin, don't beat anyone off the dribble. Kedsy, a significant difference between this team and the 2010 team is Jon Scheyer. In an unconventional way, he was a remarkable point guard.

I hope I'm wrong but I don't think this team makes significant improvement between now and the tournament. 20 games into the season, I think we see the both the talent and limitations of this team.

I'm not complaining or criticizing the players. This team just seems to be missing a part or two.

[Kedsy]

I'm not complaining or criticizing the players. This team just seems to be missing a part or two.

You may be right. I don't know. But I remember the threads after the 2010 Georgetown game and a *lot* of posters thought the same thing about that team. Or worse.

[MartyClark]

You may be right. I don't know. But I remember the threads after the 2010 Georgetown game and a *lot* of posters thought the same thing about that team. Or worse.

Not only true, but I was one of those guys.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

It's clear that St.John's knew our weakness was defense. They'd make us play it for at least half of each possession.

Will whoever is the leader of this team PLEASE step up?
Love, Ima

[roywhite]

Do not know if these are the radio interview quotes or not but K is not happy

“We did enough to win, which almost makes me sick to say that,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. “I hate saying that we did enough to win. That’s not who I am, and it’s not who this program is. We don’t do enough to win – we play really good basketball, and then hopefully we win." …

“I’m going to read all my books and see what I’m missing because there’s something missing,” he said. “It’s not resonating with our team.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/28/1813432/live-updates-duke-hosting-st-johns.html

With the game ending early on Saturday afternoon, and the next game not until Thursday evening, the next few practices should be interesting. I'm tempted to say they'll be very tough and intense, but maybe part of this will be therapy and diagnosis....what is this malady that strikes us periodically and how do we deal with it?

[Duke76]

I think K needs to get them up at 4:00a.m. and drill them on moving their feet and lower body to stay
In front of their man....I really have never seen a Duke team so deficient in basic defense stance, posture and movement of feet side to side. I know they are trying hard but it doesn't appear they really are concentrating on staying front of their men the right way.

[Starter]

Yet the team is 18-3, tied for first place in the ACC, won the Maui Tournament, has played a tough schedule, and is ranked in the Top 10.

This IMO is a perfect example of how legitimate criticisms of this team's performance are sometimes made without the perspective of the overall record, and how some fans are spoiled by the past achievements of Duke teams.

This is right on the money. I'll only add that I do believe it's fine to objectively criticize certain things because, well, it's a sports team and that's what we do. But on the whole, the general comment is real talk. This team isn't frustrating for me to watch at all. They lost Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler and Kyrie Irving off last year's team and are replacing them with lesser players and freshmen. And yet they're 18-3, 5-1 in the conference with the one loss coming on a last-second three, and they're as big a threat as any in a watered-down NCAA landscape to put it all together and go deep. (If that Butler team made the finals last year, anything is possible, especially for a team with clear blue-chip talent and a frontcourt better than anyone thought it would be.)

You want frustrating? I'm a Mets, Knicks and Dolphins fan. This team, program and coach are all a joy to watch and make me proud to have gone to Duke, even if I don't always agree with the deployment of personnel and such.

Mind you, Krzyzewski isn't satisfied with what he's seeing, but that's what makes him successful: Nothing is ever enough. Notice his reticence to calling any of his teams great, even if they clearly are; they're always just very good. He knows there are buttons to push here that he hasn't been able to push yet, since the talent is there. He'll get it done.

[sagegrouse]

When I have a moment, I would like to (or even better have someone else like to) break down the game into four kinds of possessions for St. John's---

1. In-bounds after Duke scores or on alternating possession.

2. Defensive rebound.

3. Duke turnover.

4. Offensive rebound.

St. John's made some shots and maybe the Duke defense could be better, but I think St. John's was taking advantage of our really lousy second-half offense -- turnovers galore; rotten shooting, even on lay-ups; and the complete absence of offensive rebounds, which propelled the Devils in the 1st half. I thought our halfcourt set wasn't too bad in the 2nd half, although the Johnnies made some shots they missed in the first half. But we were spewing TOs and missing makable shots, giving them a chance to score in transition or before the defense was set.

sagegrouse

[Albert]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong . . .

But for coach to say "that's not who I am . . . "

I don't think I've ever seen a statement from him that I could compare to that. His statements are always about school, program, team, and the kids. I think it clearly comes across as a call-out to the team. It may be connected to this latest plateau of greatness coach has reached, but I take the statement as, more or less, I'm Coach K, and you guys embarrassed me today. I would expect the players to notice this.

So, as we talk about this team over the rest of the season, and how things will or will not change, unless I'm missing something, at least you can say that this team has been called out by the Coach in an unprecedented way. Again, if I'm wrong, nevermind.

I know we spend a lot of time talking about the defense, but for my part, the obscenities I hurled at the TV at times in the second half were related to rebounding. If a horrible shooting team like SJU is going to start hitting threes, what are you going to do? A rational team wouldn't guard them out there in any case. But how do we allow them to get the rebounds and second-chance points they got in the second half?

[Bluealum]

I get it, I really do. During that stretch in the middle 10 minutes of the second half, I was grumbling/growling/cussin.

Let's keep it in perpective. As noted previously, we're talking about a team that lost it's top 3 scorers (ppg, not total points in the season, given Kyrie's shortened season) from last season, and 2 of those losses were absolutely dominant senior leaders. And yet this team has managed an 18-3 record against the toughest schedule in the nation and remains solidly in the top 10. So, why are we so frustrated?

1) Past seasons - obviously there's the whole 1986-now standard of excellence thing which feeds into our expectations. More importantly, I believe, there was the amazing and unexpected 2010 natty, then the 2011 season which was a roller coaster with the top-o-the-world beginning, the crushing loss of Kyrie, the exciting ride to the ACC championship without Kyrie and the number 1 seed with all the hope that we'd work Kyrie in for a run to the title...15 months of wild basketball emotions. The 2011-12 Devils are not only trying to reload/rebuild, but they're doing so after 2 of the wildest years in Duke history. It's a very hard recent history for this team to live up to. The 1995 team had it rougher...but that's about it.

2) Mental lapses - ie: the middle 10 minutes of the 2nd half today. That's something we're not used to with Duke, but it's a reality with this team. It's been discussed time and time again on DBR and many of us are confused and frustrated by it. Is it the lack of a clear emotional leader? A fairly softspoken (or at least not a demonstrative) upperclass? One too many grandbabies for Coach K to bounce on his knee? Nate-o-penia? Whatever the cause, it's a trait of the team and I suspect as frustrating for the guys in the jerseys as it is for us.

3) Hype/expectation - Obviously our bigs are performing about as well as we could have hoped and I see relatively less frustration on DBR boards about the performance of our bigs compared to the frustration aimed at the guards. The complaints I read boil down to: "Dre is inconsistent. Thornton fouls too much. Rivers isn't the Second Coming of Kyrie. Curry can't dribble. None of them can defend. Silent G is the answer, or maybe Cook is. Etc." The article about Dre, with his frank thoughts about his own lack of consistency, was illuminating in that the young man clearly is as frustrated and confused by his tendency to disappear as we are. Basically, we've got some very good players on the perimeter, but 2 true PGs who are limited (one by lack of offensive game no matter how big his heart, the other by youth and injury), and we don't have a lock down on-the-ball defender, and our most talented perimeter player is absolutely one of our best players but, unlike Kyrie, plays like a freshman. Essentially, we all see flaws in our perimeter at both ends of the court, but, tying into point number 1, those flaws may be related to our own expectations after having 2 years of Nolan/Scheyer then Nolan/Irving, as well as our expectations and hopes given the hype of Rivers and the expected maturation/development of Curry and hoped for increase in consistency in Dawkins. Basically, we had the preseason number 1 backcourt in the nation, and that feeds into our perception of how these talented but imperfect kids are performing.

4) Defense - we're Duke, we're used to cheering on a team that consistently plays high-pressure, intense defense. These guys don't. There's a misperception that defense is all about heart and effort. Bull. Most teams that take the court against us want it as badly as we do, but in most years our defense is better than our opponent's. A lot of defense is system, execution, and talent...along with heart, focus, and effort. Our perimeter defense is suffering, and we can argue about which factors are leading to it, but suffice it to say that we, the fans, aren't used to it. And, I believe, we get more frustrated than we probably should because WE believe it's just a matter of the guys trying harder.

In short, I think there's a high level of frustration with this team because of a combination of true flaws we're not used to (lapses in concentration, and poor perimeter defense) and perceptions that we are bringing to the table.

In my view this is a good team. I think their record backs it up. It's also a team that struggles on defense and struggles to play a consistent 40 minutes of basketball. I'd caution, however, against writing them off as doomed to fail in the first weekend of the tournament. First of all this team, today, could very easily make a run in the NCAAT. Secondly, there are a lot of games between now and the post-season, and the team may improve on some of these flaws. Even if they don't, however, I think we should always take that moment to reflect inwardly when we get frustrated and ask, how much of my frustration is coming from what these guys are doing on the court, and how much is coming from what I want/expect them to do?

As for today's game, it's another learning opportunity. The tape of the 2nd 10 minutes of the first half should show our guys how well they are capable of playing. The tape of minutes 15-end of the 2nd half should show them what happens when they lose their focus, even against an obviously inferior opponent.


I think most level headed posters would agree with this entire write-up. Great post. Our expectations are certainly extraordinarily high. I do think the remarkable individual talents of these players actually exacerbates these frustrations.

I think an argument can be made (just an argument mind you - not a definitive assertion) that we have never had 3 better guys collectively manning the interior.

You can make an argument that Curry & Dawkins are as good a PAIR of shooters as we have had.

You can make an argument that Rivers is one of the most remarkable freshmen we have ever had at Duke. He is in the discussion with greats like Johnny D. and Kyrie most recently as one of the most productive freshmen we have ever had.

It's not just the insane history of Duke under K, it's the talent we have this year. Somehow it doesn't feel like the team is as good as the sum of it's parts. There is still plenty of time and there is plenty of hope despite all of the angst among the fans. It's because of all that tantalizing potential that we keep awaiting some cathartic moment when the team hits a new gear and we can all celebrate the enduring genius of Coach K in finding the levers to push and the combinations that mesh and make this great talent an excellent team.

There simply is no question that this is a good team, with a very good record. It's just that you get this feeling that they COULD be so much better. I still have hope that we may see that potential realized...

[moonpie23]

In my opinion, Duke is a better team, right now, than all four of last year's Final Four teams. Even at tournament time, I don't think too many people expected any of those teams to get that far. .

i hate to be debbie downer here, but, you're joking, right? the way our team makes repeated mental errors would put them at a severe disadvantage against any of those 4 teams.

this team has problems focusing under pressure....there's no "leader" and the "go to guys" (mason and rivers) play in spurts....talent? sure, there's plenty......but as a cohesive unit, they don't show consistency...

the upper-tier acc talent we have to face (unc and fsu) will, imho, hammer us at their house and unc will prolly have a sweep.

I'll definitely come back and eat some crow, but the way they play right now looks like a 3rd place acc finish and a first weekend exit in the big dance...

i hope i'm wrong...

[Mike Corey]

At present, this is most certainly not a team capable of making the Final Four.

But it's January, so that's okay. We still have a great opportunity to be that good in March.

That is why, in part, Coach K is coming down on them so hard. He saw some great basketball for stretches of the game that helped us go up 22 on an extremely talented though young team. And then he saw them fail--again--to close well.

I'd go so far as to say Coach is working harder with this team than with any team he's coached in quite a while. Everything he's doing has a purpose of sorts, including the chastisement of this team in the post-game presser.


"I am not pleased. Not pleased at all. Not one bit."

"Something's not working. Something's not resonating."

He's working to make it resonate and identify that something. Or those somethings.

[Bob Green]

but the way they play right now looks like a 3rd place acc finish and a first weekend exit in the big dance...

i hope i'm wrong...

Jeez moonpie, calm down. The team is 18-3. Yes, we have some issues with focus and playing a full 40 minutes but the sky isn't falling. It'll be okay, I promise. :cool:

[moonpie23]

Jeez moonpie, calm down. The team is 18-3. Yes, we have some issues with focus and playing a full 40 minutes but the sky isn't falling. It'll be okay, I promise. :cool:

bob, i am calmed down....in fact, i'm almost comatose......my wife even noticed the other night how quiet i was while watching the game...

i need a cold water, face blistering of watching duke tear some team up.....i wanna see this team stomp some other team hard....

[Bob Green]

bob, i am calmed down....

Good, I was worried about you. :)



.....i wanna see this team stomp some other team hard....

As do I, as do I. We are definitely in agreement here.

[roywhite]

So, as we talk about this team over the rest of the season, and how things will or will not change, unless I'm missing something, at least you can say that this team has been called out by the Coach in an unprecedented way. Again, if I'm wrong, nevermind.

I know we spend a lot of time talking about the defense, but for my part, the obscenities I hurled at the TV at times in the second half were related to rebounding. If a horrible shooting team like SJU is going to start hitting threes, what are you going to do? A rational team wouldn't guard them out there in any case. But how do we allow them to get the rebounds and second-chance points they got in the second half?

In the completely unscientific, heat of the moment, "guys that roywhite yells at during the game" poll

Ryan Kelly is #1 (incurs my wrath for not hustling, being passive, missing chippies, looking puzzled)
Tyler Thornton is #2 (starts the offense from 30 feet away, and is more apt to go in reverse, instead of toward the basket)

FWIW

[Duvall]

i hate to be debbie downer here, but, you're joking, right? the way our team makes repeated mental errors would put them at a severe disadvantage against any of those 4 teams.


I think you may have forgotten how bad those teams were last January. Or all regular season, really.

[Chris Randolph]

St. Johns is a bad shooting team and they out shot us. They started 5 freshmen in Cameron and committed 5 less turnovers than we did. We are brutal on defense.

I will always support Duke and watch Duke. And going into every year and throughout the year I always believe they will get better and be good enough to win the whole thing. This year, I will continue to support Duke by watching the games. But this team will get blasted by UNC twice, not make the ACC final and be done on the first weekend in the tourney. Hurts to say it, but seems so true at this point.

[hq2]

Defense - we're Duke, we're used to cheering on a team that consistently plays high-pressure, intense defense. These guys don't. There's a misperception that defense is all about heart and effort. Bull. Most teams that take the court against us want it as badly as we do, but in most years our defense is better than our opponent's. A lot of defense is system, execution, and talent...along with heart, focus, and effort. Our perimeter defense is suffering, and we can argue about which factors are leading to it, but suffice it to say that we, the fans, aren't used to it. And, I believe, we get more frustrated than we probably should because WE believe it's just a matter of the guys trying harder.

However, part of defense is having the physical talent to excel at it. Physically, this team simply doesn't have the quickness to be a good defensive team,
period. Neither Seth nor Andre, our best offensive guards, have great lateral quickness, and Andre is a couple of inches too short to be a good defender
at small forward, and Seth is small at the 2 and a little slow to guard quick point guards. Our bigs, except for Mason, don't have (for their positions) great
quickness either. The reality is, people can scream and yell and jump up and down all they want about lack of effort, but physically, the talent to do it isn't there. The guards are too short and too slow to handle big, quick penetrating guards, (see Temple) and our bigs are too slow to either rotate over on penetrators, or to guard quick 3s one on one. I'm not spending my time getting upset about the effort, because I think they're trying their best, but they just aren't up to doing much better.

[magjayran]

I'm watching the replay and there were a lot of missed opportunities to get Mason the ball. We need to be thinking of getting the ball inside first. Mase is a good enough passer to get it back out if he's doubled. FEED THE BEAST BOYS!!!

[Billy Dat]

On this past Monday's ESPNU College Basketball podcast, the uber-polarizing Doug Gottlieb made an interesting point about Duke. Andy Katz asked him what he thought about Duke's current state - pointing to his impression that the team's play hasn't improved since Maui. Gottlieb said that because of the China and Dubai trip, plus the trip to Maui, it may just be that these guys are sick of each other. He said that's natural for a team, but it usually happens in mid to late February and then the postseason rush begins and everyone gets swept up. Because Duke has been together so much longer than other team's this year, and taken so many long trips, that ennui may have struck earlier. It's an added dimension for a team trying to establish new leaders and a new identity and an aspect of things I hadn't really considered and found interesting.

[Bob Green]

But this team will get blasted by UNC twice, not make the ACC final and be done on the first weekend in the tourney. Hurts to say it, but seems so true at this point.

it is way too early to be making these predictions of impending doom.

[SupaDave]

On this past Monday's ESPNU College Basketball podcast, the uber-polarizing Doug Gottlieb made an interesting point about Duke. Andy Katz asked him what he thought about Duke's current state - pointing to his impression that the team's play hasn't improved since Maui. Gottlieb said that because of the China and Dubai trip, plus the trip to Maui, it may just be that these guys are sick of each other. He said that's natural for a team, but it usually happens in mid to late February and then the postseason rush begins and everyone gets swept up. Because Duke has been together so much longer than other team's this year, and taken so many long trips, that ennui may have struck earlier. It's an added dimension for a team trying to establish new leaders and a new identity and an aspect of things I hadn't really considered and found interesting.

I saw that and while he was trying his best to be negative about the team, he still managed to say that this team had final four potential.

[BlueandWhite]

St. Johns is a bad shooting team and they out shot us. They started 5 freshmen in Cameron and committed 5 less turnovers than we did. We are brutal on defense.

I will always support Duke and watch Duke. And going into every year and throughout the year I always believe they will get better and be good enough to win the whole thing. This year, I will continue to support Duke by watching the games. But this team will get blasted by UNC twice, not make the ACC final and be done on the first weekend in the tourney. Hurts to say it, but seems so true at this point.

I don't post often. Like everyone else, I hated watching the 2nd half of today's game and the lack of effort and multiple mistakes.
I, too, will continue to support Duke and watch the games.
Reading the excerpts of Coach K's comments - I take these comments to mean that he really means business now. How'd you like to be a fly on the wall at Duke's practices the next couple of days? I expect the message to get through, and the team's defense to significantly improve as the season progresses. I really believe this. As for play against UNC... greater teams than this year's have been "blasted" by UNC at the Dean Dome..I expect two close games and Duke to win at CIS. Why can't they make the ACC final or even win another title? Why can't they make at least the Sweet 16?

[SupaDave]

St. Johns is a bad shooting team and they out shot us. They started 5 freshmen in Cameron and committed 5 less turnovers than we did. We are brutal on defense.

I will always support Duke and watch Duke. And going into every year and throughout the year I always believe they will get better and be good enough to win the whole thing. This year, I will continue to support Duke by watching the games. But this team will get blasted by UNC twice, not make the ACC final and be done on the first weekend in the tourney. Hurts to say it, but seems so true at this point.

Strangely, a team of 5 freshmen took a #1 ranked Duke team to overtime in 1991 and only lost by 3 points. Yep, that same year they won the championship.

[TWRX5284]

Duke should have won by 20+ for sure. Yes, there is a lack of defensive effort or tenacity down the stretch. Anyone else noticed that this team starts losing leads when they go to stall ball? It's like they're stalling their defense too and just slacking. I believe there were ~7 minutes left in the game against FSU and Duke was up 5. If I remember correctly they started to slow down the offense at that point. They ended up losing focus on defense and eventually the game. Maybe with this team you need to keep the pedal on the metal. Or go to stall ball if we're up by 30 then maybe they won't blow it...

[Duvall]

Duke should have won by 20+ for sure. Yes, there is a lack of defensive effort or tenacity down the stretch. Anyone else noticed that this team starts losing leads when they go to stall ball? It's like they're stalling their defense too and just slacking. I believe there were ~7 minutes left in the game against FSU and Duke was up 5. If I remember correctly they started to slow down the offense at that point. They ended up losing focus on defense and eventually the game. Maybe with this team you need to keep the pedal on the metal. Or go to stall ball if we're up by 30 then maybe they won't blow it...

That bears no resemblance to my recollection of the FSU game, in which FSU shredded Duke's defense for the entire second half. Don't think Duke ever stopped trying to score in that game, they just *got* stopped a few too many times.

[SupaDave]

Duke should have won by 20+ for sure. Yes, there is a lack of defensive effort or tenacity down the stretch. Anyone else noticed that this team starts losing leads when they go to stall ball? It's like they're stalling their defense too and just slacking. I believe there were ~7 minutes left in the game against FSU and Duke was up 5. If I remember correctly they started to slow down the offense at that point. They ended up losing focus on defense and eventually the game. Maybe with this team you need to keep the pedal on the metal. Or go to stall ball if we're up by 30 then maybe they won't blow it...

This team has a tendency to get on their heels when another team makes a push instead of effectively snuffing it out by communicating on the court and executing the necessary defensive effort. When/if they get to that level then Coach K will indeed loosen the reigns and let them open up the throttle. Unfortunately, when you're playing on your heels it's very hard to dig in on the offensive side. This is when you get rushed shots, passes out of bounds, and silly offensive fouls. This is where the team must develop.

[TWRX5284]

That bears no resemblance to my recollection of the FSU game, in which FSU shredded Duke's defense for the entire second half. Don't think Duke ever stopped trying to score in that game, they just *got* stopped a few too many times.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I remembered them slowing down the offense at some point. Oh well.

[Chris Randolph]

Strangely, a team of 5 freshmen took a #1 ranked Duke team to overtime in 1991 and only lost by 3 points. Yep, that same year they won the championship.

Fair comparison for that one game. You are going to have close games throughout a season regardless of how good you are, that is the game of basketball. But come on, that team had Laetner, Hurley and Hill. This team has nothing close to those 3. That team moved forward from that game with 3 of the greatest players in program history.

We are 21 games into the season and in my opinion the defense hasn't improved, maybe regressed even. Could it get better? Sure. But it seems that this team is who they are. They are offensive minded. They are a team that doesn't take pride in defense. They are inconsistent and lack mental toughness and leadership. Sometimes I think these guys might feel entitled, you know: they play for DUKE, wear the DUKE jersey so they are already great because of it.

[Chris Randolph]

I don't post often. Like everyone else, I hated watching the 2nd half of today's game and the lack of effort and multiple mistakes.
I, too, will continue to support Duke and watch the games.
Reading the excerpts of Coach K's comments - I take these comments to mean that he really means business now. How'd you like to be a fly on the wall at Duke's practices the next couple of days? I expect the message to get through, and the team's defense to significantly improve as the season progresses. I really believe this. As for play against UNC... greater teams than this year's have been "blasted" by UNC at the Dean Dome..I expect two close games and Duke to win at CIS. Why can't they make the ACC final or even win another title? Why can't they make at least the Sweet 16?

I understand your point of "being a fly on the wall at practices" because it is going to be intense from a coaching standpoint. But don't you think the coaches have been that way all year??????? I mean this is Coach K, a guy who former players say the number 1 thing they noticed about the guy is he gave you everything he had each and every day.

[lotusland]

However, part of defense is having the physical talent to excel at it. Physically, this team simply doesn't have the quickness to be a good defensive team,
period. Neither Seth nor Andre, our best offensive guards, have great lateral quickness, and Andre is a couple of inches too short to be a good defender
at small forward, and Seth is small at the 2 and a little slow to guard quick point guards. Our bigs, except for Mason, don't have (for their positions) great
quickness either. The reality is, people can scream and yell and jump up and down all they want about lack of effort, but physically, the talent to do it isn't there. The guards are too short and too slow to handle big, quick penetrating guards, (see Temple) and our bigs are too slow to either rotate over on penetrators, or to guard quick 3s one on one. I'm not spending my time getting upset about the effort, because I think they're trying their best, but they just aren't up to doing much better.

Duke played good defense last season and we have the same bigs this year. The difference this season is on the perimeter.

[Dukehky]

Sooooooooooo slow. I would love to see them pack it in more like 2010. I hate the hedges 10 feet beyond the 3 pt. line, just go under and stay in front. Or play a freaking zone I don't care, but the only person who can possibly stay in front of a relatively stud perimeter player is Austin, and he only likes playing defense when somebody pisses him off. More Quinn Cook.

[Devilsfan]

I can't zero in on what's wrong with this team but as much as I can't stand him Gottlieb might have hit a cord but is smart enough not to elaborate on what he noticed first hand in Asia.

[Kedsy]

i hate to be debbie downer here, but, you're joking, right? the way our team makes repeated mental errors would put them at a severe disadvantage against any of those 4 teams.

Sorry, deb, not joking at all.

UConn lost 7 of its last 11 games before the Big East tournament and finished in a three way tie for 9th in the Big East (with 9 league losses). Kentucky lost 4 of 7 games in the middle of the season and lost 6 of its first 13 SEC games, finishing 3rd in their conference. VCU lost 5 of its last 11 games going into the NCAAT, and finished 4th in the Colonial. Butler at one point lost 4 out of 5 games to Horizon league opponents.

Even if we finished 3rd in the ACC this year, with three or four more losses (which in my mind is close to a worst case scenario), this year's Duke team will be significantly more accomplished than any of those teams, and in my opinion a better team. The only argument to the contrary would have to consider their NCAAT performances, but I think that's circular logic.

[SouthPointDFan]

What's up with Michael Gbinije? From what I have seen, other players could play as well if not better given the chance.

[Newton_14]

What's up with Michael Gbinije? From what I have seen, other players could play as well if not better given the chance.

He's recovering from the Flu and did not even travel to the Maryland game. If he were 100% I think it likely he gets some PT today. It will take a few days to get the conditioning level back...

[roywhite]

He's recovering from the Flu and did not even travel to the Maryland game. If he were 100% I think it likely he gets some PT today. It will take a few days to get the conditioning level back...

Silent G has an opportunity if he's ready (and he may not be ready just based on what we've seen).

But Duke could use help on defense and Gbinije has physical tools and is in a size range that is lacking.
Looking back just a few years, Elliot Williams played very little until he was inserted in the lineup (vs St. John's, actually) on February 19 and then became a key player.
Coach K is not afraid to make major lineup changes, even in the second half of the season.

[Kedsy]

Or go to stall ball if we're up by 30 then maybe they won't blow it...

They didn't "blow it" today. Or any other day this season in which we went into stall ball. So whatever leads they've had have been sufficient, wouldn't you say?


I can't zero in on what's wrong with this team but as much as I can't stand him Gottlieb might have hit a cord but is smart enough not to elaborate on what he noticed first hand in Asia.

Except I'm pretty sure Gottlieb didn't go to Asia. I read somewhere that he called the games while watching a monitor. If true, he couldn't have noticed anything about how the team got along.


Sooooooooooo slow. I would love to see them pack it in more like 2010. I hate the hedges 10 feet beyond the 3 pt. line, just go under and stay in front. Or play a freaking zone I don't care, but the only person who can possibly stay in front of a relatively stud perimeter player is Austin, and he only likes playing defense when somebody pisses him off. More Quinn Cook.

After that whole rant about defense, you demand more Quinn? Have you seen him playing great defense so far this season? If so, when?


What's up with Michael Gbinije? From what I have seen, other players could play as well if not better given the chance.

Michael hasn't played much this season, but when he has played, he hasn't looked ready, and his defense seems very raw. I doubt he's the answer this season.


Elliot Williams played very little until he was inserted in the lineup (vs St. John's, actually) on February 19 and then became a key player.

I usually agree with you, Roy, but this just isn't true. Elliot averaged 14 mpg in the pre-season (all games before ACC games started), and had played double figure minutes in 3 of the 5 ACC games before he was inserted into the starting lineup against St. John's. Totally different situation from Michael's.


Reading the excerpts of Coach K's comments - I take these comments to mean that he really means business now.

My guess is the comments were a psychological ploy intended to wake the team up. He doesn't go after his players like that for no reason. He wouldn't say that stuff unless he believed they have the potential to be really good (and wants to shock them into it). If he thought anything similar to what some posters are saying about this team (not you, BlueandWhite -- I agree with your post) just not being good enough or having little room for improvement, his comments would have been entirely different.

[roywhite]

Looking at season stats, recently updated

Duke stats after 21 games (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/820852.pdf?ATCLID=205370024&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

One of the first things I notice is the drop-off in Seth Curry's shooting; in our Phase 1, he was shooting great, over 50% from 3-pt for quite a while if I recall.
He is now shooting a cumulative 43.9% on FG and 36.3% on 3-pt shots.

I certainly have a mental picture of Seth missing a good number of open 3-pt shots over the last several games.
Confidence? Role confusion? A little fatigue? Maybe just a regular old slump?

[Kedsy]

Looking at season stats, recently updated

Duke stats after 21 games (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/820852.pdf?ATCLID=205370024&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

One of the first things I notice is the drop-off in Seth Curry's shooting; in our Phase 1, he was shooting great, over 50% from 3-pt for quite a while if I recall.
He is now shooting a cumulative 43.9% on FG and 36.3% on 3-pt shots.

I certainly have a mental picture of Seth missing a good number of open 3-pt shots over the last several games.
Confidence? Role confusion? A little fatigue? Maybe just a regular old slump?

I think it's partially because he's been guarded more by taller players. When he's playing alongside Tyler or Quinn, the PG is generally being guarded by the other team's smallest guy and Seth draws someone 2, 3, or 4 inches taller than he is. Today, St. John's guards were almost all significantly taller than Seth, so even when he was out there with Austin and Andre he was probably trying to shoot over a taller guy.

A lot of players tend to rush their shots when guarded by a taller player, even when the defender isn't close enough to block their shot, and maybe that's happening to Seth. And once you start rushing your shots, it's easy to get into a slump and not so easy to break out of it. I have no idea if that's really what's going on with Seth, but it's a theory.

[roywhite]

Michael hasn't played much this season, but when he has played, he hasn't looked ready, and his defense seems very raw. I doubt he's the answer this season.

I usually agree with you, Roy, but this just isn't true. Elliot averaged 14 mpg in the pre-season (all games before ACC games started), and had played double figure minutes in 3 of the 5 ACC games before he was inserted into the starting lineup against St. John's. Totally different situation from Michael's.



I'll quibble on the Elliot Williams point. That year, he did play early, but beginning in January he played an average of 6.6 minutes for 10 games.
He was then inserted in the lineup and played more than 30 minutes each of the next 7 games; so it was an abrupt change.

Elliot Williams stats (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=2735&season=2008-09)

On the (more important) point of whether Mike Gbinije is ready for that type of role or being a real significant help, I agree with you that we haven't seen much sign of that happening. Maybe next year, but not likely for this year.

On Coach K's post-game comments, I encourage fans to watch his press conference.
The link is on this page from goduke.com (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205370024&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

K was clearly not happy, very subdued, some combination of major disappointment and anger, I'd guess.
Not his usual demeanor, certainly not after a win.

[sagegrouse]

When I have a moment, I would like to (or even better have someone else like to) break down the game into four kinds of possessions for St. John's---

1. In-bounds after Duke scores or on alternating possession.

2. Defensive rebound.

3. Duke turnover.

4. Offensive rebound.

St. John's made some shots and maybe the Duke defense could be better, but I think St. John's was taking advantage of our really lousy second-half offense -- turnovers galore; rotten shooting, even on lay-ups; and the complete absence of offensive rebounds, which propelled the Devils in the 1st half. I thought our halfcourt set wasn't too bad in the 2nd half, although the Johnnies made some shots they missed in the first half. But we were spewing TOs and missing makable shots, giving them a chance to score in transition or before the defense was set.

sagegrouse

So, I went through the play-by-play and came up with the following numbers:

In the first half, StJ scored on 7 out of 18 possessions (39%) triggered by an inbounds play (after a Duke score, e.g.) and on 6 of 16 possessions (38%) triggered by a live ball TO or rebound. Thus, the scoring conveersions were about the same, and as a total, StJ scored on 13 of 35 possessions (38%).

In the second half StJ scored on 15 out of 22 possessions (yikes -- 68%) triggered by an inbounds play and only 9 of 25 possessions (36%) following a rebound or turnover. This is just the opposite of what I expected. In total, in the second half the Johnnies scored on 24 of 47 possessions (51%).

In other words, Duke's defense was as good (really, better) following a liveball change of possession as in a dead ball change of possession.

sagegrouse
'BTW my definition of possession is probably not the same as the usual def. I looked at the ultimate outcome once Duke gave up the ball until it got it back again. And then, I surely made some errors, but probably not enough to change the basic result'

[Kedsy]

I'll quibble on the Elliot Williams point. That year, he did play early, but beginning in January he played an average of 6.6 minutes for 10 games. He was then inserted in the lineup and played more than 30 minutes each of the next 7 games; so it was an abrupt change.

Elliot averaged 14 mpg for our first 12 (non-conference) games, then didn't play much for five games, then averaged 9.4 mpg for 5 games. Then jumped into the starting lineup playing 30+ mpg. So, yes, it was a large and abrupt change, but nowhere near the scale it would be if Michael jumped into the starting lineup -- Michael averaged 6.6 mpg for our first 14 (non-conference) games, then has played almost none at all (a combined total of 10 minutes) for 7 games.

[duke09hms]

In my opinion, Duke is a better team, right now, than all four of last year's Final Four teams.


In today's game, Coach K may not have been pleased with our effort in the last 10 minutes, but that wasn't when the lead dwindled. In a three minute stretch just before that (from 12:39 to 9:48), the lead dropped from 19 to 10, after that it bounced from a bit better than 10 to a bit worse than 10, until it ended with us winning by 7. That doesn't sound like "blowing a lead" to me.

The first part of this is an extreme case of blue-tinted glasses/drinking the blue kool-aid. You really think this year's team, given what they've displayed for most of the season, is better than Kentucky last year? Wow. I mean, I love Duke and am a huge fan, but COME ON.

I think having a 22-pt lead and allowing a team of 5 freshmen to whittle down to 4 pts (79-75) counts a blowing a lead, even if we end up winning by 7. Blowing a lead does not necessitate losing. If we played a NCAA womens team, led by 30 at half, and won by 1 point, would you still argue that doesn't sound like blowing a lead?

Our team is very talented and COULD go far in the tournament, but they play really dumb and unfocused basketball for long stretches. I'd be satisfied with making the Sweet 16.

[Kedsy]

So, I went through the play-by-play and came up with the following numbers:

In the first half, StJ scored on 7 out of 18 possessions (39%) triggered by an inbounds play (after a Duke score, e.g.) and on 6 of 16 possessions (38%) triggered by a live ball TO or rebound. Thus, the scoring conveersions were about the same, and as a total, StJ scored on 13 of 35 possessions (38%).

In the second half StJ scored on 15 out of 22 possessions (yikes -- 68%) triggered by an inbounds play and only 9 of 25 possessions (36%) following a rebound or turnover. This is just the opposite of what I expected. In total, in the second half the Johnnies scored on 24 of 47 possessions (51%).

In other words, Duke's defense was as good (really, better) following a liveball change of possession as in a dead ball change of possession.

sagegrouse
'BTW my definition of possession is probably not the same as the usual def. I looked at the ultimate outcome once Duke gave up the ball until it got it back again. And then, I surely made some errors, but probably not enough to change the basic result'

Wow, that's pretty interesting. Is it possible that on the live ball change of possession the St. John's players were moving too quickly trying to take advantage and thus screwed up, while on the dead ball changes they took their time and played a more controlled and comfortable pace? It's the sort of thing I imagine might happen on a team of all freshmen.

If so, your observation may say more about St. John's than it does about Duke.

[Kedsy]

The first part of this is an extreme case of blue-tinted glasses/drinking the blue kool-aid. You really think this year's team, given what they've displayed for most of the season, is better than Kentucky last year? Wow. I mean, I love Duke and am a huge fan, but COME ON.

Kentucky lost to Georgia, Alabama, Ole Miss, Vanderbilt, Florida, and Arkansas last season, most of which weren't particularly good teams. Kentucky was very talented, yes, but they weren't such a great team.

Kentucky's record was 22-8 last season going into the SEC tournament. Duke has a better record this season against a much tougher schedule. How else would you measure which team is better?

[Kedsy]

If we played a NCAA womens team, led by 30 at half, and won by 1 point, would you still argue that doesn't sound like blowing a lead?

Sorry, but yes I would. Blowing a lead means blowing a lead. It doesn't mean almost blowing a lead.

[Greg_Newton]

Saw excerpts K's PC earlier, but IMO it's worth watching the video. (http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=840977&ATCLID=205370024&ATCLPID=&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

Perhaps it's time for him to bring in a guest speaker:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EChnZTJicw

[duke09hms]

Kentucky lost to Georgia, Alabama, Ole Miss, Vanderbilt, Florida, and Arkansas last season, most of which weren't particularly good teams. Kentucky was very talented, yes, but they weren't such a great team.

Kentucky's record was 22-8 last season going into the SEC tournament. Duke has a better record this season against a much tougher schedule. How else would you measure which team is better?

If our record is significantly better than 22-8 going into the ACC tournament, sure perhaps THEN I would agree Duke 2012 is better than UK 2011. It's all about where you choose your time points:
20 games into last season, UK was 16-4.
20 games into this season, Duke was 17-3.

UK finished the regular season 22-8. We are now 18-3 with 10 regular season games remaining with 2 games against UNC and 1 against FSU away.

From observation, correct me if I'm wrong, but UK did not really have the glaring defensive weaknesses (#15 D) that we have this year (#86 D), and they had the excuse of starting practically all freshmen.

Anyway, I see your point - this year's team has performed well and won a lot of games against a tough schedule although they've won ugly without solid defense. We'll see how it turns out. Hopefully K can get in these kids' heads.

[Kedsy]

If our record is significantly better than 22-8 going into the ACC tournament, sure perhaps THEN I would agree Duke 2012 is better than UK 2011.

I fully expect our record going into the ACCT will be better than 22-8. If it's not, perhaps then I'd agree with you. ;)


From observation, correct me if I'm wrong, but UK did not really have the glaring defensive weaknesses (#15 D) that we have this year (#86 D), and they had the excuse of starting practically all freshmen.

The numbers can move a lot if you win four or five or six games in a row. Going into the NCAAT, Kentucky's adjusted defensive efficiency was 38th (92.4). Not as bad as ours (86th, 95.5), but not so hot, either.

For additional reference, going into the NCAAT UK's adjusted offensive efficiency was 7th. UConn was 32nd in offense and 32nd in defense. Butler was 37th in offense and 96th in defense. VCU was 68th in offense and 156th in defense.

[weezie]

Perhaps it's time for him to bring in a guest speaker:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EChnZTJicw

Wow: simple, eloquent and inspiring. I'm actually a little choked up and ready to follow this guy anywhere.

[Indoor66]

Wow: simple, eloquent and inspiring. I'm actually a little choked up and ready to follow this guy anywhere.

Who let the dogs out? (http://www.downloads.nl/music/Who+Let+The+Dogs+Out)

[Papa John]

My guess is the comments were a psychological ploy intended to wake the team up. He doesn't go after his players like that for no reason. He wouldn't say that stuff unless he believed they have the potential to be really good (and wants to shock them into it). If he thought anything similar to what some posters are saying about this team (not you, BlueandWhite -- I agree with your post) just not being good enough or having little room for improvement, his comments would have been entirely different.

Agree... My take on K's comments after yesterday is that he was quietly calling the team out, and doing so in a manner that gives them an opportunity to come together and begin to solve this problem themselves before he steps in to lay down the wood.

I think the main element missing in this team is chemistry. Lack of chemistry seems to be stemming from a lack of leadership... Nobody has truly stepped up and taken on the mantle of the roles that Nolan and Kyle played on the floor last season. As a result, we sometimes look rudderless and confused, lacking cohesion through a lack of communication.

This is why our defense struggles at times, because we're not communicating effectively, thus we're not playing as a cohesive unit through the entire possession, leading to small breakdowns that lead to easy baskets. Our guards get a lot of heat for giving up penetration, but the defense is designed to contest the perimeter and force guys to the interior where there will be help. We're breaking down often when the help is too slow to arrive or never arrives at all.

I believe what K is hoping will happen is that the some of the guys on the team get everyone together for a "come to Jesus" discussion, to get everyone on the same page, and to demonstrate who the true leaders are going to be from this point forward. In my opinion, the guys who need to step up and do that are some mixture of Curry, Kelly, Miles and Mason.

In any event, I'm sure having fun watching these guys... One thing is for certain, win or lose, they make much every game interesting, and they've done a heck of a lot more winning than losing in the process. Will be interesting to see whether they get the message K is trying to send, and who steps up to take on the mantle of leader...

[Saratoga2]

I'll quibble on the Elliot Williams point. That year, he did play early, but beginning in January he played an average of 6.6 minutes for 10 games.
He was then inserted in the lineup and played more than 30 minutes each of the next 7 games; so it was an abrupt change.

Elliot Williams stats (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/logs.php?playerid=2735&season=2008-09)

On the (more important) point of whether Mike Gbinije is ready for that type of role or being a real significant help, I agree with you that we haven't seen much sign of that happening. Maybe next year, but not likely for this year.

On Coach K's post-game comments, I encourage fans to watch his press conference.
The link is on this page from goduke.com (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205370024&DB_OEM_ID=4200)

K was clearly not happy, very subdued, some combination of major disappointment and anger, I'd guess.
Not his usual demeanor, certainly not after a win.

If you go back and look at Scout.com ratings for Players, Michael ranked 27th while D'Angelo Harrison ranked 63 and I couldn't find a rating for Moe Harkness. Either those ratings were way off base, or St. Johns is getting more out of their new recruits than we are. Quinn was rated 37 by the way.

The small forward sized guys we are playing and the quick guards are causing us a lot of problems. The small forwards are too quick for Ryan and seem to be too difficult for Andre to handle, while the quick guards cause us difficultly with penetration. Is it that we are not playing up to potential on defense or we are and the potential is just lower than our expectations? I think the answer involves a little bit of each of these and Coach K really needs to explore all alternatives further.

[JMarley50]

Wow: simple, eloquent and inspiring. I'm actually a little choked up and ready to follow this guy anywhere.

I think what Coach Bennett was trying to say might actually apply to this team. I feel like some of the guys are a little too concerned with trying to be a twitter celebrity and proving their "haters" wrong, etc. Maybe its time for K to take drastic measures and strip away some of the luxuries that these guys have, just to remind them of why they are really there, and what the players that came before them had to do in order to get all of those nice privileges they are enjoying. Then maybe they will have less distractions and be able to focus a little more on learning how to properly play Duke defense.

[hustleplays]

However, part of defense is having the physical talent to excel at it. Physically, this team simply doesn't have the quickness to be a good defensive team,
period. Neither Seth nor Andre, our best offensive guards, have great lateral quickness, and Andre is a couple of inches too short to be a good defender
at small forward, and Seth is small at the 2 and a little slow to guard quick point guards. Our bigs, except for Mason, don't have (for their positions) great
quickness either. The reality is, people can scream and yell and jump up and down all they want about lack of effort, but physically, the talent to do it isn't there. The guards are too short and too slow to handle big, quick penetrating guards, (see Temple) and our bigs are too slow to either rotate over on penetrators, or to guard quick 3s one on one. I'm not spending my time getting upset about the effort, because I think they're trying their best, but they just aren't up to doing much better.

I agree with you, and many other posters, that our team has physical defensive liabilities. But it is not at all uncommon to see players and teams with physical limits prevail on defense, because of Heart. Heart is more than playing hard, it's the killer instinct, refusing to lose, etc. According to Coach K, we played excellent defense [evidently despite our limitations] against FSU in the first half, the entire game at Maryland, and much of the first half against. St. J. Please look at K's PC. For him, it is about will. He said we let up. He said that it's not in this team's nature to play defense [at a high level]. That our team is offense-minded, but not defense-minded. He said that something is missing, something is not resonating. That is not a lack of height and foot speed, important as these are.

For many of us, using our eyeballs, the lack of gritty will is evident. Ryan [whom I respect and admire greatly] just goes passive on defense sometimes, not others. Our team often reacts badly to pressure. How many times have we seen, and Coach and players have confirmed, that they were "knocked back" by the intensity of the other teams. Our guys need the inner steel to overcome "normal" human reasons for not playing excellent, tough basketball.

On being "spoiled," I've been working on that ever since I heard Coach call us out on that last year. But my disappointment is not about seeing "X" number of wins or dazzling talent. What I have become accustomed to is Duke teams playing with true Heart. Not being puzzled, as Ryan was, over 20 games into the season, about why they play hard and well sometimes but not others. I'm disappointed in not having enough tough floor leaders step up, to calm, focus and push the team when confronting game pressure. As Coach, said in his PC, there is only one champion, and there are only several programs that have higher, special standards. He reaffirmed that Duke is one of those programs. He was majorly disappointed in this team's effort [and it wasn't just about this particular game.] He had to say, "This isn't who I am...I'm not going to change." Coach said that it's now up to the team to decide who they are. They can't grow height or quickness, but they can, hopefully, take on Heart. So, Coach is spoiled too. He has expected and expects excellence, at least in Heart.

[G man]

I believe there are a few issues that this team needs to address.


A true leader/ alpha dog
ability to guard the ball
ability to guard the ball screen (specifically Austin getting really tired of watching him reach around screens instead of fighting through)
offesnsive consistency



I think not having a true floor leader has lead to offensive inconsistency, and lack of a defensive personality. On the flip side I think we should change our defensive approach to what we were doing in 2010. Pull the defense back to three point line. This would help with guys allowing penetration to the middle of the paint. We are big enough to control the glass against 98% of teams. This same defense is working for UVA. It should work for us as well. That being said Coach K and staff know way more about basketball than I do, but I think this is worth considering.

[Class of '94]

I agree with you, and many other posters, that our team has physical defensive liabilities. But it is not at all uncommon to see players and teams with physical limits prevail on defense, because of Heart. Heart is more than playing hard, it's the killer instinct, refusing to lose, etc. According to Coach K, we played excellent defense [evidently despite our limitations] against FSU in the first half, the entire game at Maryland, and much of the first half against. St. J. Please look at K's PC. For him, it is about will. He said we let up. He said that it's not in this team's nature to play defense [at a high level]. That our team is offense-minded, but not defense-minded. He said that something is missing, something is not resonating. That is not a lack of height and foot speed, important as these are.

For many of us, using our eyeballs, the lack of gritty will is evident. Ryan [whom I respect and admire greatly] just goes passive on defense sometimes, not others. Our team often reacts badly to pressure. How many times have we seen, and Coach and players have confirmed, that they were "knocked back" by the intensity of the other teams. Our guys need the inner steel to overcome "normal" human reasons for not playing excellent, tough basketball.

On being "spoiled," I've been working on that ever since I heard Coach call us out on that last year. But my disappointment is not about seeing "X" number of wins or dazzling talent. What I have become accustomed to is Duke teams playing with true Heart. Not being puzzled, as Ryan was, over 20 games into the season, about why they play hard and well sometimes but not others. I'm disappointed in not having enough tough floor leaders step up, to calm, focus and push the team when confronting game pressure. As Coach, said in his PC, there is only one champion, and there are only several programs that have higher, special standards. He reaffirmed that Duke is one of those programs. He was majorly disappointed in this team's effort [and it wasn't just about this particular game.] He had to say, "This isn't who I am...I'm not going to change." Coach said that it's now up to the team to decide who they are. They can't grow height or quickness, but they can, hopefully, take on Heart. So, Coach is spoiled too. He has expected and expects excellence, at least in Heart.

Excellent Post! IMO, the supposed lack of height and foot speed has nothing to do with this team's inconsistent D. It's all about them making the decision to be completely committed, focused and dedicated for 40 minutes to playing defense and having pride in it. I think Coach K said it best in the PC that the team has offensive minded players that need to be defensive players that play offense. The team has to continue to improve their communication and staying connected on the defensive end in order becoming a good defensive "team" that masks the deficiencies of some individual players. As a team, the players appear to react late to defensive situations (i.e., they may stop the opposing player's initial move but slow to react that player's second or third move); and that's just focus and commitment to detail on defense. I don't care how tall or fast (laterally) a player is, if that player is slow to react defensively, it doesn't matter what physical tools the defensive player has. I hope true leaders step up (even if it's not the team captains) and lead this team by example. One of the nice things about past teams is that many of our team leaders were our best defensive players and led by example (like Nolan, Kyle, Lance, etc); and they set the tone. As many posters have said, we need someone to step up and lead this team on the defensive end.

[Kedsy]

If you go back and look at Scout.com ratings for Players, Michael ranked 27th while D'Angelo Harrison ranked 63 and I couldn't find a rating for Moe Harkness. Either those ratings were way off base, or St. Johns is getting more out of their new recruits than we are. Quinn was rated 37 by the way.

Personally, I prefer the RSCI, which is a composite of many rankings, including Scout. Harkless (maybe that's why you didn't find him, I think you spelled his name wrong) was rated 38; Harrison was rated 47. Michael was rated 28 and Quinn 31.

Clearly, from watching him yesterday, Harkless was underrated by the recruiting services. It happens. As for Harrison, if we gave Quinn 34 mpg (which is Harrison's average playing time), he'd probably have better stats and look like a better player than Harrison. Michael would probably be better than Greene or Pointer or Garrett. That doesn't mean St. John's gets more from their freshmen than we do. It means they have no choice but to play the freshmen and that's why they're 9-12. While we don't have to throw our new players into the fire and we're 18-3. That's my take, anyway.

[Ian]

I think Coach K said it pretty plainly when he said that the other team was "hungry to score", and that we weren't "hungry to stop them". I think that's the key, that to play good defense you have to want to get the stop as much as the other team wants to score, that every defensive possession where you win is as gratifying as every offensive possession where you score. This team simply does not have that mentality. They want to score, playing defense is what they happen to do between offensive possessions, not something they do because they want to play defense. That's what he means that we don't have it in us to play defense. He's not talking about natural abilities, he's talking about mental makeup and attitude.

[hq2]

So, in the end, it's sort of a combination of both lack of quickness/backcourt height and lack of desire/leaderhship. Overall, it makes
for a situation where Duke clearly does not scare a lot of teams on defense. Unfortunately, short of some Zoubs-Maryland
type moment, I don't see it changing at this point in the season. Not sure how the team can turn it around now.

[Kedsy]

I don't see it changing at this point in the season. Not sure how the team can turn it around now.

I totally disagree. And my guess is Coach K would disagree too. As I said in another thread, Coach K wouldn't have made that press conference public challenge to the team if he didn't think it might fix the problem.

[Bob Green]

Not sure how the team can turn it around now.

Seeing that we are 18-3, I don't think we need to turn it around. It is more a situation where some fine tuning is in order. This team has beaten four teams currently ranked in the AP Top 25: Michigan State, Michigan, Kansas and Virginia. Two of our three losses were to Top 25 teams: Ohio State and Florida State. Temple is the only loss that we should be shaking our head about and we all know stuff happens now and then. Yes, there is room for improvement but there is no requirement for a ground up overhaul.

[CoachJ10]

However, part of defense is having the physical talent to excel at it. Physically, this team simply doesn't have the quickness to be a good defensive team,
period. Neither Seth nor Andre, our best offensive guards, have great lateral quickness, and Andre is a couple of inches too short to be a good defender
at small forward, and Seth is small at the 2 and a little slow to guard quick point guards. Our bigs, except for Mason, don't have (for their positions) great
quickness either. The reality is, people can scream and yell and jump up and down all they want about lack of effort, but physically, the talent to do it isn't there. The guards are too short and too slow to handle big, quick penetrating guards, (see Temple) and our bigs are too slow to either rotate over on penetrators, or to guard quick 3s one on one. I'm not spending my time getting upset about the effort, because I think they're trying their best, but they just aren't up to doing much better.

In addition to the lack of quickness...I think our perimeter players are simply not very strong (a necessary attribute to play the tough man to man defense that K asks for out of his guards). Alas, that is usually only rectified by time. Of recent note, look at the physical transformations that Scheyer and Nolan (and even Kyle to some degree) went thru from their freshman to senior seasons. They all put the time in during the offseasons to change their bodies, making themselves much better defenders as a result. Seth (while having a slender frame) in particular could definitely put in some work to strengthen himself.

[Chris Randolph]

Seeing that we are 18-3, I don't think we need to turn it around. It is more a situation where some fine tuning is in order. This team has beaten four teams currently ranked in the AP Top 25: Michigan State, Michigan, Kansas and Virginia. Two of our three losses were to Top 25 teams: Ohio State and Florida State. Temple is the only loss that we should be shaking our head about and we all know stuff happens now and then. Yes, there is room for improvement but there is no requirement for a ground up overhaul.

Bob, I respect a lot of the posts you make on here as I feel you have good persepctive on things. I agree with you that an "overhaul" is not necessary at all and that based on who we beat and our record we are having a really nice year considering the loss of Irving, Smith and Singler....

If anything was in much need of improving at this point in the season, defense would be it. And to this point in the year, our extended pressure defense hasn't seemed to "click" with this team. It has been discussed by myself and others the idea of backing off on defense, like the 2010 championship team. Yet, Coach K hasn't seemed to do this. And I don't think it is a hard or difficult change to implement. I'm curious as to your thoughts on maybe why we haven't adopted the style of 2010 and if you think it would be better for this team to "sag" more on defense.

[roywhite]

Seth Curry's comments after the game from goduke.com (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205370024&DB_OEM_ID=4200)


“It was bad. It was pretty much an embarrassment to go out there and play well for 20 minutes and then in the second half, be a totally different team. That’s totally on my shoulders to go out there and try and handle the ball and not turn it over and try and get us in a position to win games. We didn’t do that.”...

On Duke’s missing piece at the end of games:
“I don’t know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it’s my role as the point guard out there at the end of the games to handle the ball and get us in the right situation to finish off games. Maybe I’m not doing that as much as I should be right now.”



I suspect this personal acceptance of responsibility is just what Coach K wants to see, and appears to be a good sign.

So far we think Seth is not particularly suited for the traditional PG role and for team leadership. A good player, but a square peg in the round hole type of thing.
But we didn't really think Jon Scheyer was a natural for those two roles either, and he did a terrific job.

Not saying this means Seth will perform as well as Jon Scheyer did, but I look at his comments as a big step toward improvement.

[Greg_Newton]

If anything was in much need of improving at this point in the season, defense would be it. And to this point in the year, our extended pressure defense hasn't seemed to "click" with this team. It has been discussed by myself and others the idea of backing off on defense, like the 2010 championship team. Yet, Coach K hasn't seemed to do this. And I don't think it is a hard or difficult change to implement. I'm curious as to your thoughts on maybe why we haven't adopted the style of 2010 and if you think it would be better for this team to "sag" more on defense.

I'm not Bob, but my take on your question is that we don't have the size. That team could sag and still take away jump shots pretty well (although they still weren't a great 3PT-defense team) because they were 6'3-6'5-6'8 and solidly built through the guard spots; this team is 6'2-6'4-6'4 or smaller.

Having guards who are both laterally and vertically challenged presents a difficult challenge defensively. The only solution, really, is to be incredibly active and efficient in your rotations and have a swarming help defense like Butler and UVA, but that's another area where we've had issues - and perhaps the area where we should hope to see improvement.

I am starting to kind of think that K is going to need to break down and rebuild the psyches of certain players for this to happen, though. As he said, we're a team of offensive players right now, and it's not a simple thing to change a player's fundamental approach to the game.

[Bob Green]

I'm curious as to your thoughts on maybe why we haven't adopted the style of 2010 and if you think it would be better for this team to "sag" more on defense.

It is obvious to everyone that improvement is needed on the defensive end of the court so I am hoping we see some sort of adjustment or fine tuning over the next month as March is rapidly approaching. I have no idea what kind of change we will see but I'm certain Coach K has no shortage of ideas. Perhaps a half court trap or a personnel change...

In regard to the 2010 style, my eye test response is the 2010 team dominated the glass on both ends of the court while the 2012 team doesn't (I'll have to go look at the stats to verify). Additionally, the 2010 team had superior individual defensive players at both forward positions (Lance Thomas and Kyle Singler). Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins are not players who would excel in a defense that sags.

You pose an interesting question so I'll give it additional thought and see if I can come up with something more profound to offer in response. The one profound thought I have to offer at this point is whatever change Coach K decides to implement (assuming he changes something) must include Andre Dawkins. Simply stated, we need Dawkins firepower on the court as he is capable of scoring a lot of points in a hurry. Moreover, when our opponents have to focus upon defending Dawkins' 3 point shot, it opens up the middle for our big men to operate.

[Chris Randolph]

I'm not Bob, but my take on your question is that we don't have the size. That team could sag and still take away jump shots pretty well (although they still weren't a great 3PT-defense team) because they were 6'3-6'5-6'8 and solidly built through the guard spots; this team is 6'2-6'4-6'4 or smaller.

Having guards who are both laterally and vertically challenged presents a difficult challenge defensively. The only solution, really, is to be incredibly active and efficient in your rotations and have a swarming help defense like Butler and UVA, but that's another area where we've had issues - and perhaps the area where we should hope to see improvement.

I am starting to kind of think that K is going to need to break down and rebuild the psyches of certain players for this to happen, though. As he said, we're a team of offensive players right now, and it's not a simple thing to change a player's fundamental approach to the game.

Good point on the lack of height and length at the guard position to challenge shooters. And I see where a Butler like defense is necessary with smaller guards. Unfortunately, extended pressure defense hasn't been consistently effective for Duke this season. Despite our lack of height on the perimeter, I still believe our best chance defensively is to back off the perimeter pressure at all positions. I'd rather teams shoot from 16-21 feet as opposed to 3-8 feet.


It is obvious to everyone that improvement is needed on the defensive end of the court so I am hoping we see some sort of adjustment or fine tuning over the next month as March is rapidly approaching. I have no idea what kind of change we will see but I'm certain Coach K has no shortage of ideas. Perhaps a half court trap or a personnel change...

In regard to the 2010 style, my eye test response is the 2010 team dominated the glass on both ends of the court while the 2012 team doesn't (I'll have to go look at the stats to verify). Additionally, the 2010 team had superior individual defensive players at both forward positions (Lance Thomas and Kyle Singler). Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins are not players who would excel in a defense that sags.

You pose an interesting question so I'll give it additional thought and see if I can come up with something more profound to offer in response. The one profound thought I have to offer at this point is whatever change Coach K decides to implement (assuming he changes something) must include Andre Dawkins. Simply stated, we need Dawkins firepower on the court as he is capable of scoring a lot of points in a hurry. Moreover, when our opponents have to focus upon defending Dawkins' 3 point shot, it opens up the middle for our big men to operate.

I definitely agree with you that '10 team rebounded much better. I think the biggest difference was that the '10 team involved all 5 guys going to the boards on defense. This year's team, our guards like to hang out on the perimeter to get to offense quicker. Interested as to why you think Kelly and Dawkins would not excel by backing off defenders and making them shooters instead of drivers? They seem to get beat a lot off dribble.

Regardless of style of defense, you have to have personnel that are good at playing defense, meaning they mentally prepare and take pride in their defense. I've always thought if a player is really good on offense/scoring they can be really good on defense. They have the ability, it is a mindset. Since this team doesn't seem to have the right mindset for defense and continues to give up lay-ups and points in the paint, I just assume back off and make them shoot from distance. At least the percentages say that making a basket is tougher from 16-21 feet than 3-8 feet :)

[Kedsy]

I'm not Bob, but my take on your question is that we don't have the size. That team could sag and still take away jump shots pretty well (although they still weren't a great 3PT-defense team) because they were 6'3-6'5-6'8 and solidly built through the guard spots; this team is 6'2-6'4-6'4 or smaller.

I agree with you that the reason this year's team wouldn't be as good at that style as the 2010 team is 3-point defense. But man are you wrong that the 2010 team "[was]n't a great 3PT-defense team." The 2010 team had the BEST 3-point shooting defense in Duke history. The table below shows our opponent's 3-point percentage every year since the 3-pointer was instituted in 1987:



Year 3made 3att 3pct
2012 97 298 0.326
2011 176 543 0.324
2010 158 559 0.283
2009 183 542 0.338
2008 167 507 0.329
2007 139 441 0.315
2006 143 471 0.304
2005 128 420 0.305
2004 176 543 0.324
2003 164 474 0.346
2002 168 555 0.303
2001 207 602 0.344
2000 197 551 0.358
1999 191 635 0.301
1998 156 512 0.305
1997 149 438 0.340
1996 161 480 0.335
1995 180 462 0.390
1994 145 489 0.297
1993 118 409 0.289
1992 170 451 0.377
1991 164 473 0.347
1990 128 380 0.337
1989 125 391 0.320
1988 114 325 0.351
1987 84 251 0.335



In regard to the 2010 style, my eye test response is the 2010 team dominated the glass on both ends of the court while the 2012 team doesn't (I'll have to go look at the stats to verify).

The 2010 team was historically dominant on the offensive glass, but this year's team is a slightly better defensive rebounding team. We currently grab 68% of the available defensive boards, while the 2010 team grabbed 67.5%.

[Greg_Newton]

I agree with you that the reason this year's team wouldn't be as good at that style as the 2010 team is 3-point defense. But man are you wrong that the 2010 team "[was]n't a great 3PT-defense team." The 2010 team had the BEST 3-point shooting defense in Duke history. The table below shows our opponent's 3-point percentage every year since the 3-pointer was instituted in 1987:

Thanks for the correction, I must have remembered your table backwards; it must have been 2-point percentage that they didn't particularly excel at?

I retract my caveat, then; that team could back off on the perimeter but still disrupt jump shots VERY well!

[Kedsy]

Thanks for the correction, I must have remembered your table backwards; it must have been 2-point percentage that they didn't particularly excel at?

I retract my caveat, then; that team could back off on the perimeter but still disrupt jump shots VERY well!

Well said. ;)

And yes, that team was only average at defending the two. The current team is average at defending the three and really bad at defending the two.

Interestingly enough, our 2010 opponents attempted the 2nd most threes ever against us at the same time they were missing at a historic rate. Like we lured them into thinking it was a good shot then closed quickly enough to disrupt it.

[cspan37421]

Good job providing relevant, factual data. Thank you!

[Sandman]

It seems that every Duke player that gets on the court plays really hard as an individual and is passionate about wanting to help his team win. However, this individual effort is not translating into TEAM effort for some reason. Maybe it's communication, or lack of an accepted leader, or a lack of physical ability for the body to complete what the brain directs, or something else entirely. Regardless, the end result is the defensive problems we see this year. Maybe, for whatever reason, this team just cannot perform at the historical levels of "Duke defense" that we all expect. Perhaps this team needs to go in a different direction -- maybe even to a zone (yes, I said it!) or to some variant of the Virginia defense (which is quite impressive).

[Acymetric]

I think people who say lack of chemistry are spot on. I want to clarify that "lack of chemistry" is not the same as "bad chemistry" in that I don't think we have a cancer in the locker room or guys that don't like each other (although obviously there is no way for me to know that, it is not my impression). But the guys just don't seem comfortable playing with each other, particularly on defense, and perhaps more importantly they don't seem to feed off of each other's energy.

I think this is something that can change, and hopefully we will see that devolop in the coming month as we head into the home stretch of ACC season and the tournament.

[ChillinDuke]

Well said. ;)

And yes, that team was only average at defending the two. The current team is average at defending the three and really bad at defending the two.

Interestingly enough, our 2010 opponents attempted the 2nd most threes ever against us at the same time they were missing at a historic rate. Like we lured them into thinking it was a good shot then closed quickly enough to disrupt it.

Kedsy, your staunch defense of this Duke team with reasonable, level-headed analysis throughout this thread is admirable. I would like to add that I am in complete agreement with most of your assessment of this team, the St John's game, and the situation in general.

I am genuinely surprised (perhaps I shouldn't be) at the amount and degree of criticism being directed at this team. We, as a community, knew there would be growing pains this year. We discussed them at length during the offseason. Yet now, when they actually surface, we act shocked, confused, and dejected.

IMO, looking at the entire body of work to date, this team has played well. Not superb. Not dominant. But we've played well.

We can get better, sure. And we probably will get better. But we are winning games right now. They aren't routs, and I get frustrated at our play sometimes just like many of you. But we are winning games. Anyone saying definitively that we can't or won't beat this team or that team is off the reservation. I will take a 7-point home win against St. Johns. And I would also take a 1-point home win against Grambling (the worst rated team in Division 1 basketball according to KenPom). Why? Because they are wins, and that is the only metric that matters at the end of the day.

We can discuss the nuances of these games and groan and grunt and debate. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I continue to believe that this team can beat any team in college basketball on any day, regardless of how aesthetically pleasing it might be. And that's all that matters.

I repeat, we've played well. And our record reflects that.

- Chillin

[MCFinARL]

It is obvious to everyone that improvement is needed on the defensive end of the court so I am hoping we see some sort of adjustment or fine tuning over the next month as March is rapidly approaching. I have no idea what kind of change we will see but I'm certain Coach K has no shortage of ideas. Perhaps a half court trap or a personnel change...

In regard to the 2010 style, my eye test response is the 2010 team dominated the glass on both ends of the court while the 2012 team doesn't (I'll have to go look at the stats to verify). Additionally, the 2010 team had superior individual defensive players at both forward positions (Lance Thomas and Kyle Singler). Ryan Kelly and Andre Dawkins are not players who would excel in a defense that sags.

You pose an interesting question so I'll give it additional thought and see if I can come up with something more profound to offer in response. The one profound thought I have to offer at this point is whatever change Coach K decides to implement (assuming he changes something) must include Andre Dawkins. Simply stated, we need Dawkins firepower on the court as he is capable of scoring a lot of points in a hurry. Moreover, when our opponents have to focus upon defending Dawkins' 3 point shot, it opens up the middle for our big men to operate.

I totally agree with this (not that that is a surprise, since as others have noted, you (Bob) are an astute observer). Like a lot of DBR posters, I am a big fan of Andre, and a defender when others get on him, so I may not be completely objective here. I recognize that he has some defensive weaknesses, especially with lateral quickness, though unlike some commenters here, I don't see lack of effort as an issue. Everything Andre has said in interviews, everything he has shown on the court and the bench this season, suggests he is fully engaged and really wants to do well for the team. It appears defense, including defensive decision-making, doesn't come naturally to him, but this season at least I have never doubted for a minute that he wants to, and is trying to, play effective defense.
As long as that is the case, I don't see how he can be left out of the offensive equation. Teams can't afford to ignore him even when he doesn't appear to be shooting well, because--as we have seen many times--he often can hit several in a row even after throwing up a brick or two. While he is streaky, his overall FG percentage is close to Austin's and Seth's and his 3 point percentage is noticeably higher.

[Bob Green]

IMO, looking at the entire body of work to date, this team has played well. Not superb. Not dominant. But we've played well.

We can get better, sure. And we probably will get better. But we are winning games right now.

- Chillin

Thanks for the excellent, level headed commentary! It is nice to read a post with grounded perspective.

[moonpie23]

there doesn't seem to be that comradery ........

[Acymetric]

there doesn't seem to be that comradery ........

Jeff Caple gave an answer after one of the recent games (maybe FSU?) about why he was sitting in the middle of the bench. Part of the explanation was (paraphrased) that the coaches wanted to "make sure the guys were saying positive things" or something along those lines.

[DBFAN]

Do not know if these are the radio interview quotes or not but K is not happy

“We did enough to win, which almost makes me sick to say that,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. “I hate saying that we did enough to win. That’s not who I am, and it’s not who this program is. We don’t do enough to win – we play really good basketball, and then hopefully we win." …

“I’m going to read all my books and see what I’m missing because there’s something missing,” he said. “It’s not resonating with our team.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/28/1813432/live-updates-duke-hosting-st-johns.html

I was talkin about the interview that the Duke radio Network did after the game. That's when he made the comments about the mistakes

[DBFAN]

I predict that this team will indeed get better. And that is the whole point of playing for Duke and K. Just enjoy the ride. Duke Basketball is much more than X's And O's

[dukelifer]

There is no question this team has been frustrating to watch. This team has the potential to be so much better. K sees this as well and that is why he vented at his press conference. Sloppy passes, porous D and forcing drives that are not there can easily turn a big lead into a small one. But we have seen glimpses from this team all season- they just are not consistent for 40 minutes. Duke had a huge lead on St Johns and for a time looked outstanding -then the wheels fell off. Still - they hit their throws and pulled it out. This team is definitely frustrating to watch- but they have another month to figure it out. For years, posters on this board have worried about peaking too early. This team has not yet peaked. And while we all like blowouts, it is important to learn how to win when there is game pressure. So far this team is getting a lot of experience winning close games and that can pay dividends- just ask UNC. Last year's UNC team had games in which they won 62-56, 64-61, 74-71, 64-62, 48-46, 72-70, 61-59, 92-87 (OT) and 86-83 - and they got to the Final 8. Very hard to judge a team that does not look great but still wins.

[tux]

When St. Johns got down 22 in the second half, they tried (and succeeded) at speeding up the game. They changed their defense and started pressuring out to half court and trapping some. I personally thought at that point Duke wasn't quite sure if they wanted to slow it down or not. Often a big guy (Ryan or Mason) was up past the time line playing catch with one of our guards, when honestly we could have just attacked that defense and made them pay for extending it. (I guess an experienced Duke team would have done both: taken their time and made the defense pay, but this team isn't quite there yet.)

Surveying the rest of college basketball, I'm confident we can figure it out.

[Greg_Newton]

While maintaining a calm perspective is admirable (and some posts to the contrary are certainly a little extreme), I think it's important to note that this team does have real problems that are more severe than the ones that cause the standard annual meltdowns.

We've been winning games, yes, but let's not forget how terrible the ACC is. If we weren't winning games right now, it would be shocking. We're 18-3, sure, but we've had exactly one win against a tournament team since we left Maui to go with three losses.

But mainly... our defense. This isn't 2008 or 2009 where we didn't pass the eye test, but were still pretty effective at the end of the day. According to the adjusted numbers, we've been the 96th best defensive team in the country this year. Barely top 100. That's exponentially worse than we've been since the stat was taken, and my hunch is you'd be hard pressed to find a Kryzewski Duke team with a worse rating if you crunched the numbers back to '86 or so.

So while it may sound hyperbolous for someone to post "This is the worst defensive Duke team I've ever seen!", well... if they're only 30 or so, they may actually be right.

[gep]

Do not know if these are the radio interview quotes or not but K is not happy

“We did enough to win, which almost makes me sick to say that,” Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. “I hate saying that we did enough to win. That’s not who I am, and it’s not who this program is. We don’t do enough to win – we play really good basketball, and then hopefully we win." …

“I’m going to read all my books and see what I’m missing because there’s something missing,” he said. “It’s not resonating with our team.”

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/28/1813432/live-updates-duke-hosting-st-johns.html

I watched the post game news conference posted on goduke.com. Coach K said both quotes there. I thought it was interesting that he mentioned reading his books... because he's missing something.

Also during the post game news conference, Coach K mentioned one other thing that caught my attention. He said that there's an "energy cycle" that happens to all teams during a season. Someone else posted somewhere that Doug Gottlieb mentioned on a podcast(?) that Duke has spent a lot of time together... China, Dubai, Maui... long trips together, getting "sick of each other", etc. And then Coach K mentions "energy cycle"... ups and downs. But, Coach K did say that if you are at the bottom of the cycle, you find a way to not have if affect your pre-game, and definitely not affect you in-game... you find it in you to fight through that. After the game, then you can "recharge". I got the feeling that Coach K thinks this team is at or near the bottom of this "energy cycle". With the next game not till Thursday, I got the feeling that Coach K will somehow address this "energy cycle"... he did mention it a few times during the news conference.

[ChillinDuke]

While maintaining a calm perspective is admirable (and some posts to the contrary are certainly a little extreme), I think it's important to note that this team does have real problems that are more severe than the ones that cause the standard annual meltdowns.

We've been winning games, yes, but let's not forget how terrible the ACC is. If we weren't winning games right now, it would be shocking. We're 18-3, sure, but we've had exactly one win against a tournament team since we left Maui to go with three

I'm not entirely sold the ACC is as bad as is often said. Especially when these teams play us its a completely different beast than other ACC games. I've seen a lot of fight throughout the conference this year that I didn't necessarily see last year. Don't get me wrong though...it's not good either.

That said, your point is obviously well taken. We do have problems. We have been discussing them as the games go by. I don't think anyone is denying that. But the "we won't beat team X" and "we won't get past the first NCAAT weekend" proclamations are simply off base.

I can't think of a single team that we could not beat on any given day.

- Chillin

[DukieInBrasil]

But mainly... our defense. This isn't 2008 or 2009 where we didn't pass the eye test, but were still pretty effective at the end of the day. According to the adjusted numbers, we've been the 96th best defensive team in the country this year. Barely top 100. That's exponentially worse than we've been since the stat was taken, and my hunch is you'd be hard pressed to find a Kryzewski Duke team with a worse rating if you crunched the numbers back to '86 or so.

So while it may sound hyperbolous for someone to post "This is the worst defensive Duke team I've ever seen!", well... if they're only 30 or so, they may actually be right.

I'm nearly 40 and that bold statement is true for me. I've been a Duke fan since i was 10, '86. No team has been so poor defensively with K at the helm in that time. Still at 18-3, they're "good enough to win" most of 'em. I hope the focus improves substantially, cuz we've got some big games coming up quick.

[devildeac]

Jeff Caple gave an answer after one of the recent games (maybe FSU?) about why he was sitting in the middle of the bench. Part of the explanation was (paraphrased) that the coaches wanted to "make sure the guys were saying positive things" or something along those lines.
He also said it was to provide immediate and continued coaching feedback/communication to someone just subbed out or getting ready to be subbed in during the flow of the game. Key word he stressed was communication.

[Kfanarmy]

I think to a large degree, where this team may fall a little short is on the intensity side. Duke should be able to outscore most teams with the good shooters they have as long as they play reasonable defense. The problem they seem to have is matching the intensity of a team that refuses to submit--continues to believe and fight for the full 40. In two of the three losses, OSU and FSU, I'm not sure Duke players matched the intensity of those teams for long stretches. in the Saint Johns game, Duke had a large enough lead that they began to feel comfortable and simply let off the gas a lot earlier than many would have hoped, including coach K. Still they didn't let off so early that they ever gave up the lead. The long-term problem with allowing teams to "almost come back" is that the tendancy to take the foot off the accelarator too early gives incentive to teams Duke will face in the future. The "lack" of 40 minute intensity gives confidence to teams in the top 25. I haven't really decided this is a concentration issue, so much as it is lack of a killer instinct that causes the defensive intensity to drop and the focus on getting a good offensive posession to waver once the team gets a significant lead. I do think, it may put the team in a bad position when a full 40 minutes of intense effort is required against a good team. I'm not certain slapping the floor means anything...as a motivational tool, that's more about personality than anything. It works for some guys, but others just don't feel it. One thing I do notice that does enflame team passion is having someone giving their all for every loose ball. There have been exceptions, but I haven't really noticed this team consistently going to the floor to win the 50/50 ball. Maybe it is a leadership issue...that is a lack of someone on the floor who takes over emotionally when the intensity begins to fade, but to me there are clearly lapses in intensity that can be troublesome.

[roywhite]

I think to a large degree, where this team may fall a little short is on the intensity side. Duke should be able to outscore most teams with the good shooters they have as long as they play reasonable defense. The problem they seem to have is matching the intensity of a team that refuses to submit--continues to believe and fight for the full 40. In two of the three losses, OSU and FSU, I'm not sure Duke players matched the intensity of those teams for long stretches. in the Saint Johns game, Duke had a large enough lead that they began to feel comfortable and simply let off the gas a lot earlier than many would have hoped, including coach K. Still they didn't let off so early that they ever gave up the lead. The long-term problem with allowing teams to "almost come back" is that the tendancy to take the foot off the accelarator too early gives incentive to teams Duke will face in the future. The "lack" of 40 minute intensity gives confidence to teams in the top 25. I haven't really decided this is a concentration issue, so much as it is lack of a killer instinct that causes the defensive intensity to drop and the focus on getting a good offensive posession to waver once the team gets a significant lead. I do think, it may put the team in a bad position when a full 40 minutes of intense effort is required against a good team. I'm not certain slapping the floor means anything...as a motivational tool, that's more about personality than anything. It works for some guys, but others just don't feel it. One thing I do notice that does enflame team passion is having someone giving their all for every loose ball. There have been exceptions, but I haven't really noticed this team consistently going to the floor to win the 50/50 ball. Maybe it is a leadership issue...that is a lack of someone on the floor who takes over emotionally when the intensity begins to fade, but to me there are clearly lapses in intensity that can be troublesome.

Just my opinion, but I think we have a team of nice guys.

Lacking the Danny Meagher, Christian Laettner, Shane Battier types....or more recently, gung-ho players like Lance Thomas and Kyle Singler.
Can a team of nice guys develop a collective personality of constant aggressiveness and consistent effort?

Maybe so, but it will be a challenge.

[SupaDave]

The team really needs to learn to play controlled and with reckless abandon at the same time.

[jimsumner]

The team really needs to learn to play controlled and with reckless abandon at the same time.

"Be quick but don't hurry." J. Wooden.

[superdave]

The team really needs to learn to play controlled and with reckless abandon at the same time.


"Be quick but don't hurry." J. Wooden.

I for one am glad Duke is coached by Coach K and not by message board emerging consensus.

Also, I take heart in knowing that you can win the NCAA tournaments you're not supposed to win like Duke did in 2010. Although that sometimes means you dont win the ones you probably ought to win like 2011, 2002, 1999.

Duke has not come close to hitting it's ceiling as a team this year. There's a lot to be optimistic about!

[moonpie23]

like 2011, 2002, 1999.



we DID win 02, they just didn't call the foul........:mad:

[throatybeard]

"Be quick but don't hurry." J. Wooden.

"Festina lente." --Horace

[MartyClark]

I for one am glad Duke is coached by Coach K and not by message board emerging consensus.

Also, I take heart in knowing that you can win the NCAA tournaments you're not supposed to win like Duke did in 2010. Although that sometimes means you dont win the ones you probably ought to win like 2011, 2002, 1999.

Duke has not come close to hitting it's ceiling as a team this year. There's a lot to be optimistic about!

Okay Superdave, I admire you "glass half full" guys. But honestly, why do you think this team will significantly improve in the next 30 days? We had the advantage of China-Dubai for preseason advantage. I think at this point that what you have seen is what you get. It is unlikely that the team will start playing good defense. It is unlikely that they will develop the type of chemistry they seem to lack. It is unlikely that they will improve their ball handling skills.

The team is pretty good. I have especially enjoyed Mason's progress. I don't think they will significantly improve. Tell me why I am wrong.

[UrinalCake]

I don't think they will significantly improve. Tell me why I am wrong.

The best I can think of is to direct you to last year's loss at UNC, followed by our victory against them in the ACC tournament final a week later. It was like watching two completely different teams. Part of it was just hitting shots, which is a seemingly random factor from the standpoint of a fan, and we did have more depth which helped when playing in three consecutive days. But beyond that, we completely dominated them inside in that second game, while Smith and company threw Marshall totally out of rhythm. It was a complete turn of events separated by SEVEN DAYS, played with the exact same players.

So while others may be clamoring for lineup changes, zone defense, moving Austin to the point, etc., I will contend that at the college level a huge component of the team's outcome comes down to effort, desire, and of course coaching.

[ncexnyc]

The best I can think of is to direct you to last year's loss at UNC, followed by our victory against them in the ACC tournament final a week later. It was like watching two completely different teams. Part of it was just hitting shots, which is a seemingly random factor from the standpoint of a fan, and we did have more depth which helped when playing in three consecutive days. But beyond that, we completely dominated them inside in that second game, while Smith and company threw Marshall totally out of rhythm. It was a complete turn of events separated by SEVEN DAYS, played with the exact same players.

So while others may be clamoring for lineup changes, zone defense, moving Austin to the point, etc., I will contend that at the college level a huge component of the team's outcome comes down to effort, desire, and of course coaching.

I don’t think anyone really believes we can’t beat anyone in the nation on any given night. The real question is, “Can we string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams?”

[Greg_Newton]

The next couple weeks should tell us a lot about how much the team can improve. It's gut check time, and how the players respond will dictate the tone for rest of the season.

[Kedsy]

But honestly, why do you think this team will significantly improve in the next 30 days?

How about because we have seen Duke teams significantly improve from January 30 to March 1 so many times it's difficult to count. Nobody can honestly say that the team will improve, but based on history, the odds are better that they will than that they won't.

What I don't understand is why there are so many "what you've seen is what you'll get" people out there, when historically that's rarely the case.

[throatybeard]

I don’t think anyone really believes we can’t beat anyone in the nation on any given night. The real question is, “Can we string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams?”

The above post seems to be predicated upon the idea that "the real question" is whether we won a national championship in a given year. There's a lot more to this sport than that. Even by the standards of our outrageously successful coach, he's batting (.111) on that count. Which is pretty damn good, but a really crazy way to look at things.

[hustleplays]

Kedsy, your staunch defense of this Duke team with reasonable, level-headed analysis throughout this thread is admirable. I would like to add that I am in complete agreement with most of your assessment of this team, the St John's game, and the situation in general.

I am genuinely surprised (perhaps I shouldn't be) at the amount and degree of criticism being directed at this team. We, as a community, knew there would be growing pains this year. We discussed them at length during the offseason. Yet now, when they actually surface, we act shocked, confused, and dejected.

IMO, looking at the entire body of work to date, this team has played well. Not superb. Not dominant. But we've played well.

We can get better, sure. And we probably will get better. But we are winning games right now. They aren't routs, and I get frustrated at our play sometimes just like many of you. But we are winning games. Anyone saying definitively that we can't or won't beat this team or that team is off the reservation. I will take a 7-point home win against St. Johns. And I would also take a 1-point home win against Grambling (the worst rated team in Division 1 basketball according to KenPom). Why? Because they are wins, and that is the only metric that matters at the end of the day.

We can discuss the nuances of these games and groan and grunt and debate. But until I see evidence to the contrary, I continue to believe that this team can beat any team in college basketball on any day, regardless of how aesthetically pleasing it might be. And that's all that matters.

I repeat, we've played well. And our record reflects that.

- Chillin

Needless to say, I fully respect your view that winning is what matters. But this is certainly not the way Coach K [and many of us] look at it. He knows our W/L record, but he is not happy at all. He explicitly said in his St. John's PC that it makes him sick to see his team play just good enough to win. He wants to see excellent basketball, which for him begins on the defensive end, and then that "hopefully" [in his words] amounts to wins. Coach said that the St. Johns win felt like a loss. He said that he will fight if his team is ok with what they did against St. Johns, because he will not change.

Many of us are disappointed, not shocked or dejected. But it is confusing to us, and it is evidently confusing to Coach K himself. He said that he would go back and read all of his own books because what he has been doing with this team is not resonating. This is not fine tuning, evidently there needs to be a fundamental change of attitude.

[Mcluhan]

The above post seems to be predicated upon the idea that "the real question" is whether we won a national championship in a given year. There's a lot more to this sport than that. Even by the standards of our outrageously successful coach, he's batting (.111) on that count. Which is pretty damn good, but a really crazy way to look at things.

This!

I'm fascinated with this team at this point in time. Life is fascinating. And life is about trying to get better.

[camion]

I don’t think anyone really believes we can’t beat anyone in the nation on any given night. The real question is, “Can we string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams?”

The answer is, "No." Every year, for every team.

A realer question is, "Can we compete with any team in the tournament?"

[ChillinDuke]

Needless to say, I fully respect your view that winning is what matters. But this is certainly not the way Coach K [and many of us] look at it. He knows our W/L record, but he is not happy at all. He explicitly said in his St. John's PC that it makes him sick to see his team play just good enough to win. He wants to see excellent basketball, which for him begins on the defensive end, and then that "hopefully" [in his words] amounts to wins. Coach said that the St. Johns win felt like a loss. He said that he will fight if his team is ok with what they did against St. Johns, because he will not change.

Yes, he did. And then he dialed it back in the N&O article linked on the front page this morning after the heat of the game had passed.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/30/1817875/coach-k-keeps-focus-on-dukes-defense.html

“Overall, we’ve had to play pretty (darn) good defense in order to have the record we have against the competition we have,” Krzyzewski said. “I don’t care what stats there are out there.”

So, it does sound that Coach K is complimentary of our defense when you look at our "entire body of work" as I said in my earlier post. Especially, he notes the level of competition we have played and the fact that we have won 18 games against 3 losses. I stand by my post and still think crestfallen attitudes are over the top. We have things to work on absolutely, but I do not agree that we need fundamental changes. I can't speak for Coach K as to which view he would support, but I doubt he believes we need fundamental changes as a team. The same team that is, again, 18 and 3.


Many of us are disappointed, not shocked or dejected. But it is confusing to us, and it is evidently confusing to Coach K himself. He said that he would go back and read all of his own books because what he has been doing with this team is not resonating. This is not fine tuning, evidently there needs to be a fundamental change of attitude.

I am disappointed, too. At times. But, again, over the entire body of work, I am pleased. We are not as dominant as last year, but we weren't supposed to be! We are still winning, and we look quite good in spurts. Likewise, we look quite shaky in spurts. But the sum of the quite good's and the quite shaky's has led us to 18-3. Coach K points to consistency. And I think that's the key word to look for here.

Va Tech will be a nice game to see if we can start stringing together enough quite good's to say the word consistent.

- Chillin

[sagegrouse]

The above post seems to be predicated upon the idea that "the real question" is whether we won a national championship in a given year. There's a lot more to this sport than that. Even by the standards of our outrageously successful coach, he's batting (.111) on that count. Which is pretty damn good, but a really crazy way to look at things.

Uhh... 4 divided by 31 equals 0.129. But your point is well taken. -- sage

[MCFinARL]

The answer is, "No." Every year, for every team.

A realer question is, "Can we compete with any team in the tournament?"

I assume you mean "every year, for every team except one." Because one team does, in fact, do this every year.

[Kedsy]

I assume you mean "every year, for every team except one." Because one team does, in fact, do this every year.

I think his point was before the tournament starts the odds are stacked heavily against any team any year to do it.

[jimsumner]

Uhh... 4 divided by 31 equals 0.129. But your point is well taken. -- sage

Perhaps we're factoring in the five years at West Point.

[Albert]

There was a very thoughtful post earlier, pointing out the misconception that "talent" has no bearing on defensive performance, and that the only variables are "intensity" and "effort."

So, I suppose you could conclude that this team lacks some mix of defensive talent and defensive effort. However, I think of talent as a non-changing quality -- coaches "develop" talent, or talent succeeds or fails in reaching "potential," but it is a fixed quantity.

But more generally, and turning the astutely distilled misconception on its head, if you think this team will not improve, do you then conclude that this end of January juncture represents how good this team should be, given its quantum of "talent?" I think that, in terms of defense, yes, there is talent, there is intensity and effort, but, as I tell American kids trying to play soccer, there is also "knowing where to stand."

Sorry, one of my first posts . . . I just don't think I understand how a Duke fan could look at this team and conclude they can't or won't improve.

[MChambers]

Sorry, one of my first posts . . . I just don't think I understand how a Duke fan could look at this team and conclude they can't or won't improve.
Sometimes it's hard to envision how things could change. I think it was the late, great Dan Quisenberry who said "I have seen the future and it looks like the present, only longer."

[davekay1971]

I don’t think anyone really believes we can’t beat anyone in the nation on any given night. The real question is, “Can we string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams?”

Can we? Yes, sure, of course we can.

Will we? Odds are against that every year. This year, at this point, odds are more against us than they were on January 31, 1992 or January 31, 1999. But, as Kedsy pointed out in another thread, the odds against UConn putting together 6 consecutive victories against tournament level teams on January 31, 2011 were probably longer than ours are now. Same with NCSU on January 31, 1983, and Villanova on January 31, 1985, etc, etc, etc.

A more interesting question is what do we need to do, as a team, to maximize our odds of putting together 6 consecutive victories against tournament level teams.

My list would include:
1) Defensive consistency
2) Defensive consistency
3) Defensive consistency
4) Continuing to make getting the ball into Mason and Miles a priority. On nights where the 3s aren't falling, those guys can keep us alive, as long as we have...
5) Defensive consistency
6) Get Curry going offensively
7) Defensive consistency
8) Keep Dawkins confidence level high - he's got his mojo now, and we need him to keep it. We're a much more potent offense when he's on.
9) Defensive consistency
10) Defensive consistency

[NSDukeFan]

I don’t think anyone really believes we can’t beat anyone in the nation on any given night. The real question is, “Can we string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams?”

I doubt that this team can string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams. But... this team might be able to win that first tournament of first and second round games to advance to the sweet 16. If that happens, they might get into a couple of good match-ups, or have improved enough defensively, or get hot shooting, or play with sufficient intensity to play a couple of good games and win a Regional. If this team advances to the Final Four, it would be time to re-evaluate, look at who else is there and see if Duke could find some way to win the first game to get in the final. If that were to happen, who knows?

[NSDukeFan]

Can we? Yes, sure, of course we can.

Will we? Odds are against that every year. This year, at this point, odds are more against us than they were on January 31, 1992 or January 31, 1999. But, as Kedsy pointed out in another thread, the odds against UConn putting together 6 consecutive victories against tournament level teams on January 31, 2011 were probably longer than ours are now. Same with NCSU on January 31, 1983, and Villanova on January 31, 1985, etc, etc, etc.

A more interesting question is what do we need to do, as a team, to maximize our odds of putting together 6 consecutive victories against tournament level teams.

My list would include:
1) Defensive consistency
2) Defensive consistency
3) Defensive consistency
4) Continuing to make getting the ball into Mason and Miles a priority. On nights where the 3s aren't falling, those guys can keep us alive, as long as we have...
5) Defensive consistency
6) Get Curry going offensively
7) Defensive consistency
8) Keep Dawkins confidence level high - he's got his mojo now, and we need him to keep it. We're a much more potent offense when he's on.
9) Defensive consistency
10) Defensive consistency

Would you be hinting that you think defensive consistency might be an important factor in this team's chances at success this year? :p Tell us how you really feel.

[toooskies]

I doubt that this team can string 6 consecutive victories together against tournament level teams. But... this team might be able to win that first tournament of first and second round games to advance to the sweet 16. If that happens, they might get into a couple of good match-ups, or have improved enough defensively, or get hot shooting, or play with sufficient intensity to play a couple of good games and win a Regional. If this team advances to the Final Four, it would be time to re-evaluate, look at who else is there and see if Duke could find some way to win the first game to get in the final. If that were to happen, who knows?

I would argue that 5 of our first 7 wins this year look like tournament-level teams and we won them all. This is how Lunardi seeds them:

Belmont (14)
Davidson (13)
Michigan (4)
MSU (3)
Kansas (2)

If Duke gets a 1 seed (based on our strong SOS/RPI), then we're looking at Belmont/Davidson as the equivalent of 16/8 seeds, then Michigan at a 4, Michigan State coming from the other half of the Regional, then Kansas in a Final Four game. (And ultimately, we lose to Ohio State in the championship...)

So, this team has demonstrated it has a tournament run in it, the only question is if we're getting better throughout the season.

[MCFinARL]

I think his point was before the tournament starts the odds are stacked heavily against any team any year to do it.

Most likely you are right--that that was his point, I mean; you are certainly right that before the tournament the odds are stacked heavily against any team any year to do it. I was just reading literally and trying (apparently in vain) to be a bit humorous. I'll add the smiley face next time--or forget the post altogether.

[Kedsy]

Most likely you are right--that that was his point, I mean; you are certainly right that before the tournament the odds are stacked heavily against any team any year to do it. I was just reading literally and trying (apparently in vain) to be a bit humorous. I'll add the smiley face next time--or forget the post altogether.

Sorry, it really is hard to tell sometimes.

[UrinalCake]

If Duke gets a 1 seed (based on our strong SOS/RPI), then we're looking at Belmont/Davidson as the equivalent of 16/8 seeds, then Michigan at a 4, Michigan State coming from the other half of the Regional, then Kansas in a Final Four game. (And ultimately, we lose to Ohio State in the championship...)

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I often hear people say that you need to play six solid games to win a championship, and I would argue that as a #1 seed you can get out of the first weekend without playing all that well. FSU is currently projected as a 6 seed, so if we can beat them at home despite playing the worst half of defense that has ever been played in the history of college basketball (:)), then I think we can beat an 8/9 on a neutral court without playing our best game. So you really only need to string together FOUR solid games, which is still tough but statistically less of an anomaly.

On the other hand, Temple is currently bracketed as a 9, so they could bounce us in the second round. We'll see...

[MCFinARL]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I often hear people say that you need to play six solid games to win a championship, and I would argue that as a #1 seed you can get out of the first weekend without playing all that well. FSU is currently projected as a 6 seed, so if we can beat them at home despite playing the worst half of defense that has ever been played in the history of college basketball (:)), then I think we can beat an 8/9 on a neutral court without playing our best game. So you really only need to string together FOUR solid games, which is still tough but statistically less of an anomaly.

On the other hand, Temple is currently bracketed as a 9, so they could bounce us in the second round. We'll see...

Well, but we didn't beat them at home. Granted, we came very close to beating them, and even should have beaten them, despite that terrible half to defense, but we didn't.