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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 74, Maryland 61 Post-Game Thread



hurleyfor3
01-25-2012, 11:04 PM
Discuss here.

cruxer
01-25-2012, 11:07 PM
Good road win in a tough place. I love watching this team develop. I must say the 2010 season made me really appreciate team development and has helped me not to panic after losses or tight games. Aren't ACC road wins supposed to be hard?

Loved the inside game tonight that showed up when the outside game wasn't clicking. Loved that Mason had other post moves to go to when the turtles finally shut off the jump hook. All in all, I'm quite pleased with the win. Mase is the obvious MOM...

-c

jipops
01-25-2012, 11:07 PM
Maryland I believe hit the 20pt mark after about 9 minutes - on pace for a 100pt game. For the final 31 minutes they were held to 41 points. Very nice defense.

lotusland
01-25-2012, 11:07 PM
A really ugly win but I'll take it. Mason Plumlee is a complete stud. Props to coach Wojo!

Duke79UNLV77
01-25-2012, 11:08 PM
1. Will Mason break Woods' consecutive FT record?

2. Is Duke just a big men's school where guards just make interior passes and shoot FTs at the end of the game?

UrinalCake
01-25-2012, 11:08 PM
Not a thing of beauty but played much better in the second half. Mason was a beast, dont know why they never chose to double down on him. Keys to the game were Mason's play and free throws (we hit ours, they didn't and that alone would be the difference in the game)

sporthenry
01-25-2012, 11:08 PM
Very frustrating team to watch b/c unlike most other Duke teams, this team will shoot itself in the foot. They still play some very dumb basketball from time to time. But a road win in the ACC is just that. Nobody remembers how they were won, just how many. This team just seems to take two steps forward and one step back. They continue to show glimpses but then resort back to dumb mistakes. Hopefully, it will just click at some point this season.

ScreechTDX1847
01-25-2012, 11:08 PM
Mason's best game. Mason and Ryan killed what could have become some big Maryland runs in the first 8 minutes.

CLW
01-25-2012, 11:09 PM
#1 - Mason Plumlee obviously I was most impressed with his free throw form as he is clearly worked on it and I to me looks more confident at the line.

#2 - Maryland is REALLY bad

#3 - Our defense is still not very good. Maryland blew a bunch of open jumpers, layups etc....

#4 - Rivers has a TON of potential but has virtually no "feel" for the game. He may be 1 and done but IMHO he is no where near ready for the next level on either the offensive or especially the defensive end.

Bob Green
01-25-2012, 11:10 PM
Aren't ACC road wins supposed to be hard?

Absolutely! Tonight was a big road victory to improve to 5-1 in the ACC. Our guards struggled to score the ball, but the inside game clicked and the team persevered. A solid effort by all.

JNort
01-25-2012, 11:11 PM
Seth- at least he can still hit free throws and he never gave up on offense. It just was not meant to be for him tonight. His defense was bad

Andre- Best magic act ever, one game he is there the next he is not.

Tyler- Played ok

Austin- Played very well on offense and decent enough on defense

Miles- Played well

Ryan- was silent but very solid again

Mason- A force tonight! One sequence during this game really defined how he played: Mason with the bucket on offense runs back down to play defense and blocks the shot then hustles for the loose ball.

Greg_Newton
01-25-2012, 11:11 PM
Best performance by a Duke big since...?

Austin was huge too, with four big drives for layups during crucial points in the second half. They could have opened up a significant lead at a few points.

Also thought Thornton was quietly effective, aside from a few bad defensive plays.

Great win considering the foe and place, and that Curry and Dawkins were nonexistent.

Chris Randolph
01-25-2012, 11:11 PM
Mason just beasted Maryland, very nice to see. Miles was solid, Austin had a good 2nd half for the most part. Ryan was solid.

Duke should play inside out through Mason and Miles the rest of the year. They've shown all year the ability to score in the post. Defenses will have to adjust or just keep giving up buckets. This could help our guards get more catch and shoot (which we are better at as opposed to dribble shoot) 3's.

Despite the first 11 minutes (Maryland was super jacked, understandable: big game/Duke/Gary night) the defense was pretty good. I do think a big part of it is Maryland not being good but I will take it

flyingdutchdevil
01-25-2012, 11:11 PM
Mason has had no development in his 3 years at Duke. What a terrible game. It's not like he led the team in points, rebounds, and assists. In a hostile environment.

If I were Coach K, I'd put Mason in the doghouse and bench him for the rest of the year. Talk about a liability...

NOTE: If you do not understand sarcasm, please go back to school.

Side note: Is Mason the best passer on the team? Me thinks yes.

OZ
01-25-2012, 11:11 PM
... and the first game on Gary's newly dedicated court is a Duke win. Gary has to be loving that!

DUKIE V(A)
01-25-2012, 11:12 PM
Huge game by Mason...

Unsung hero...TT...after Stoglin started second half 3 for 3 from the field in the first couple minutes...he held him to 6 pts for the remainder of the game (17+ minutes)...Also went 4 for 4 from the line to seal the game...

Rivers took over for a stretch in the second half with four nice buckets...

Team hit 17 for 18 from the line...

Never easy to win in MD...I'll take it...

OZZIE4DUKE
01-25-2012, 11:12 PM
Good win. Bad outside shooting but great Plumlee! Even from the foul line! :cool:

CLW
01-25-2012, 11:12 PM
Absolutely! Tonight was a big road victory to improve to 5-1 in the ACC. Our guards struggled to score the ball, but the inside game clicked and the team persevered. A solid effort by all.

Meh. Maryland played with more intensity but they are still a bad team (157th overall in the country with the 112th best O and 225th rated defense). It was a W and they all count but this team still has a LONG way to go.

60's Devil
01-25-2012, 11:12 PM
Great to see that we can get a win on a night the threes are not going in. Not sure how we did it but we sure stopped penetration in the second half. Hooray for Tyler and 4 clutch free throws at the end.

bluedevilfan1998
01-25-2012, 11:13 PM
I really enjoyed this game. It had me nervous at some points, though.
I thought Mason played great. A win by 13 points ain't bad, especially on
a road game.

Sixthman
01-25-2012, 11:14 PM
It looks like the free throws are coming around. Outstanding second half, as the defense was improved over first half and almost no wasted offensive possessions. Very encouraging step forward!

jipops
01-25-2012, 11:14 PM
#3 - Our defense is still not very good. Maryland blew a bunch of open jumpers, layups etc....


While the first part of that may be true, I don't think it was bad tonight. The first 10 minutes Maryland was getting a ton of scores by getting into the lane rather easily with a dump off for a layup or dunk. Did you notice that didn't exist for the terps in the 2nd half? And I don't recall seeing many open looks in the 2nd half for the terps. The defense adjusted mid-game and was very successful this time.

RoyalBlue08
01-25-2012, 11:15 PM
I think this was a huge win for the guys. Outside shooting let us down and Maryland came out like they were fired out of a cannon. Lots of toughness and lots of great play from Mason got us the W. I think this should be one that the team is very proud of.

DukeGirl4ever
01-25-2012, 11:17 PM
#3 - Our defense is still not very good. Maryland blew a bunch of open jumpers, layups etc....

#4 - Rivers has a TON of potential but has virtually no "feel" for the game. He may be 1 and done but IMHO he is no where near ready for the next level on either the offensive or especially the defensive end.

#3 - I can not stand to watch us hedge any more on high ball screens. We did it for 3/4 of the game and it was pathetic. That last 1/4 the game, it seemed like we were still hedging, but they were weaker hedges at times which allowed the on-ball defender to get through the screen and our bigs to get back a lot quicker. I think that helped us.

#4 - Boy are you correct. I watch Austin and don't get me wrong, he's talented and aggressive, but I've never seen a kid who has been around the game as much as he has be so clueless about in-game situations. Maybe it's just his will to win that has him jacking up 3's with around 4 minutes left to play when we need to run the clock and get a good shot. That being said, I love the kid, he's a freshman, he will learn....but he needs to stay.

ChrisP
01-25-2012, 11:17 PM
Obviously, Mason had a HUGE game - major props to him. I was really upset with AR in the first half but I thought he played very well for the last 12-14 minutes tonight. Also, you have to give the team credit for their performance at the line - over 94% in a VERY hostile environment. Loved the way Tyler and Seth stepped up and hit their 'throws at the end.

We had 14 assists and only 9 to's tonight, too. After some truly dreadful defense for the first quarter or so of the game, we really tightened it up for the rest of the game. It wasn't the prettiest game, for sure, but it's a big road win (they all are, folks) and we shot pretty terribly from 3 point range (`19%). Think about it, guys, if we'd just shot a little better from 3, this game would have been a blowout. Overall, I'm happy because I thought we showed the ability to adjust and learn during the game and we - for once - closed it out strong! Go DUKE!!!

jv001
01-25-2012, 11:19 PM
Good win in a very hostile arena. Looked like our defense was much better in the 2nd half. Mason with some great hedge plays up top. Austin hit some big shots down the stretch. Miles was steady and Tyler hit the free throws late in the game. Ryan played a good game as well. Made some baskets early an came through with some blocks. But the man tonight was Mason. A great all around game for our big guy. He made his free throws to boot. "that's what I'm talking about". GoDuke!

jipops
01-25-2012, 11:20 PM
Meh. Maryland played with more intensity but they are still a bad team (157th overall in the country with the 112th best O and 225th rated defense). It was a W and they all count but this team still has a LONG way to go.

Don't take wins like these for granted. EVER. It was a road ACC win against an opponent completely jacked to take us down. We could have easily lost this one and the win was huge in terms of ACC standings. Maryland would not be 157th overall if they played with this type of intensity every game, which they don't.

I'm hoping we saw something in our defense to build on tonight.

Billy Dat
01-25-2012, 11:21 PM
Not a thing of beauty but played much better in the second half. Mason was a beast, dont know why they never chose to double down on him. Keys to the game were Mason's play and free throws (we hit ours, they didn't and that alone would be the difference in the game)

Agree with this. Truly a tale of two halves. Actually, we looked pretty bad at the start of the second half, too, until the first timeout. Coming out of that Rivers actually played really well, hitting two consecutive runners that stopped the MD run. Then, we kept going to Mason and he kept delivering. Then, Rivers got those two drive lay-ups where no help came. That allowed us to get a 5-7 point cushion which we never really gave up. Aside from a couple of bad decisions, I thought Rivers was a huge key to the second half. But, this was Mason's night. What a performance on both ends!!!

Tyler, despite getting burnt on many drives, also managed to keep Stoglin in front of him a few times, and did a pretty good job running the team. He had to, because Seth was very erratic, and Andre was, too. Kelly had a pretty solid game, and I though Miles was decent, too. Again, most of this commentary refers to the second half because the first, aside from Mason's play, was tough to watch.

Where's Wheat with his analysis of us throwing the ball inside? I don't think I have ever seen us throw it inside as much - ever.

A couple of random observations:
-Loved seeing Mason's trademark reverse slam on a nice pass from Rivers. It's been a long time since Mason did one of those.
-How about Mason's sweet feed to Kelly for the late dunk?
-Who else wanted to kick something when Faust hit those two shot that rainbowed, hit from rim, bounced straight up, and went in?
-Nice rebound by Miles when he was laying on his back yet he managed to still rip it away from MD and get it to Thornton
-Both teams had a couple of possessions where they got 2 or 3 offensive boards and made shots at the end - all were big sequences
-The MD fans don't seem as nasty without Gary prowling the sideline. We'll miss you, oh sweaty one

burnspbesq
01-25-2012, 11:23 PM
Mason's FT stroke is fundamentally OK. if he can sustain his confidence, there's no reason he can't shoot 70 percent for the rest of the season.

weezie
01-25-2012, 11:23 PM
... and the first game on Gary's newly dedicated court is a Duke win. Gary has to be loving that!

Ehhh, Gary's used to it.

I love watching how teams really get gassed at the end of games against us. Even during our losses, the opposing team always looks utterly exhausted.

Rudy
01-25-2012, 11:23 PM
With the exception of Thornton's defense and Rivers stretch of offense in the second half, the guard play on both ends wasn't good. Nice to have the bigs play well, Mason of course, at the top. His best effort I've seen, playing with a lot of confidence offensively. I hope this marks his turning point the rest of the season. If so he may convince scouts he's ready for the big show.

UrinalCake
01-25-2012, 11:24 PM
When was the last time a big man was our #1 scoring option? Maybe Laettner?

weezie
01-25-2012, 11:27 PM
Oh, and the md warm-up jackets looked like figure skating costumes.

Reilly
01-25-2012, 11:28 PM
... and the first game on Gary's newly dedicated court is a Duke win. Gary has to be loving that!

Gary set a standard of losing to Duke and had things in place so that tradition could continue even after he left.

ncexnyc
01-25-2012, 11:28 PM
Huge game by Mason...

Unsung hero...TT...after Stoglin started second half 3 for 3 from the field in the first couple minutes...he held him to 6 pts for the remainder of the game (17+ minutes)...Also went 4 for 4 from the line to seal the game...

Never easy to win in MD...I'll take it...

Nice post! For as much garbage that was written about TT during the game thread a quick look at SCACC Hoops has some very interesting +/- numbers posted for the young man. Say what you want about Tyler, but the kid is a winner.

UrinalCake
01-25-2012, 11:30 PM
#4 - Boy are you correct. I watch Austin and don't get me wrong, he's talented and aggressive, but I've never seen a kid who has been around the game as much as he has be so clueless about in-game situations. Maybe it's just his will to win that has him jacking up 3's with around 4 minutes left to play when we need to run the clock and get a good shot. That being said, I love the kid, he's a freshman, he will learn....but he needs to stay.

I think that in high school Austin was The Man and had the ball in his hands every possession and it was fine for him to jack up 30 foot shots with abandon. Now he's having to adjust to sharing the ball and getting his teammates involved. Yet there are still times that we need him to be selfish and take over. It's a tough juggling act but he's learning and seems to have the right attitude. Definitely not ready for the nba.

jipops
01-25-2012, 11:32 PM
Reading many of these posts I'm starting to think I must have watched a completely different game than many others.

We played an ACC road game against a psuedo-rival and shot about 50% as a team, had more assists than turnovers, won the battle of the boards, got 44pts from our trio of bigs (and 2 more from Josh), opponent shot 40%, we shot 94% from the free throw line.... oh yeah, and we won.

happy times

Bluealum
01-25-2012, 11:32 PM
1. Will Mason break Woods' consecutive FT record?

2. Is Duke just a big men's school where guards just make interior passes and shoot FTs at the end of the game?

Great post!

I used to wonder why Dawkins would get in K's doghouse so fast and not play for long stretches the last two years. With all the amazing micro analysis of possessions going on this year on DBR I have been watching Dawkins on D away from the ball a lot more and I now fully appreciate why he doesn't get consistent minutes.

I believe our D got better in the 2nd half because he played a lot less. As amazing as his outside shot is, he just doesn't stay focused when his man doesn't have the ball. He forces others into continual help and recover scenarios. It's a shame but I will no longer be rooting for more minutes and more leeway for him untill he shows defensive consistency and focus. The combination of TT, Seth, and Austin was our best defensive combination, and perhaps that has been so all year long. With all of our worry over guard height, I think that overall even with TT and Seth being small, those 3 are our best defensive perimeter. Hopefully QC can get healthy and show some improvement in that area, but he has a lot to prove much like Dawkins.

Finally, what a brilliant game by Mason! Wow that was fun to watch. I think he just elevated himself into the 1st team all ACC conversation, hope he keeps that up. The up and under move was a thing of beauty.

Duke79UNLV77
01-25-2012, 11:36 PM
Mason's FT stroke is fundamentally OK. if he can sustain his confidence, there's no reason he can't shoot 70 percent for the rest of the season.

He seems to be getting the ball out of his palms and into his fingers more. I'm sure he'll still struggle at times, but hopefully his 40% days are a thing of the past. Great improvement.

sporthenry
01-25-2012, 11:39 PM
Great post!

I used to wonder why Dawkins would get in K's doghouse so fast and not play for long stretches the last two years. With all the amazing micro analysis of possessions going on this year on DBR I have been watching Dawkins on D away from the ball a lot more and I now fully appreciate why he doesn't get consistent minutes.

Yeah, he just seems to lose focus. He will be big in games where he can come in and get 20 points on 7 shots but he lacks consistency. The guy has so many natural tools and even his ability to put it on the deck is underrated but the guy is at the point where it means either NBA or Europe.

The one play which really stood out to me was when he ran at Faust got way too close watched him blow by while the guy was a 19% 3 point shooter out of rhythym. I have to assume that was an execution mistake as they have to know who was a shooter.

Saratoga2
01-25-2012, 11:48 PM
With the exception of Thornton's defense and Rivers stretch of offense in the second half, the guard play on both ends wasn't good. Nice to have the bigs play well, Mason of course, at the top. His best effort I've seen, playing with a lot of confidence offensively. I hope this marks his turning point the rest of the season. If so he may convince scouts he's ready for the big show.

Where was Quinn in this game. The guards weren't playing that well, but still no Quinn. I wonder why?

Billy Dat
01-25-2012, 11:48 PM
Mason led the team in points (23), rebounds (12) AND assists (4).

I am not sure how many 3s we had taken by halftime, but it is a sign of how strong we are inside that when the 3s weren't falling, we stopped taking them and really focused on looking inside. Kelly's 14 and 4 in 24 minutes wasn't too shabby, either.

Without going back an examining the game play-by-play, I wonder if Rivers' two uncontested drives forced MD to stop doubling Mason in the post? After he was killing them in the first half, they started to double on the post-catch and it kind of worked. But, for long stretches of the second half, they left poor Len, the 7 footer, by himself and he was getting destroyed.

jv001
01-25-2012, 11:50 PM
Mason, Ryan and Miles combined for 44 pts on 17-24 shooting. Our guards combined for 13 rebs but shot poorly from the field. Team had 33 rebs to 28 for Md. We shot poorly on 3s as we went 3-16. We went 17-18 on free throws while the Terps went 11-21. This was huge in this fairly close game. GoDuke!

tbyers11
01-25-2012, 11:50 PM
Where was Quinn in this game. The guards weren't playing that well, but still no Quinn. I wonder why?

Neither Quinn or Gbinije made the trip to Md because of illness

jv001
01-25-2012, 11:52 PM
Where was Quinn in this game. The guards weren't playing that well, but still no Quinn. I wonder why?

Quinn and Michael G were home in Durham. Neither made the trip. Bob Harris said they were ill. GoDuke!

Kedsy
01-25-2012, 11:57 PM
Our perimeter rebounding really stepped up today: Austin had 5 boards, Seth and Andre had 4 each. That's a great sign, if they can keep it up. The line was 11 and we won by 13, on a night where Maryland came out super-fired up. I don't understand how people can be unhappy with that.

Having said that, our performance will probably hurt our defensive efficiency on Pomeroy. Our raw defensive efficiency was 98.3, against a so-so offense. The good news is our 2nd half D was better than our first half D.


Andre- Best magic act ever, one game he is there the next he is not.

Clever line, if completely inaccurate. Andre had played four excellent games in a row, coming into tonight's game. Over those four games, he averaged 17.3 ppg, shooting 50% from 3 (on 34 attempts!), 63% on 2s, and 89% on FTs. Tonight his shot wasn't falling but he still managed 4 rebounds and a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Give the kid a break.


Ryan- was silent but very solid again

Ryan had 14 points, shooting 67% on 3s, 75% on 2s, and 100% on FTs, and had 3 blocked shots. The only way this could be described as "silent" is if the speaker has wax in his ears.


Dear Seth Curry,

I know you are finding out this season that life without Nolan Smith is very difficult. You really benefited from defenses focusing on him and leaving you open. But Duke needs you to make a run to any kind of championship. Please get it together. Starts with attitude.

Love, concerned Duke fans

Oh, puhleeeese. Seth's shot was off. If he hits even one of his threes it would have put him into double-figures scoring, as well as 4 rebounds and 2 assists. Not his best game, but certainly not deserving the above snarkiness. And for the season Seth is doing pretty darned well, in my opinion.

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 12:00 AM
The one play which really stood out to me was when he ran at Faust got way too close watched him blow by while the guy was a 19% 3 point shooter out of rhythym. I have to assume that was an execution mistake as they have to know who was a shooter.

If I'm thinking of the same play you are, Andre was trying for a steal on that play. Perhaps not the best decision, but it had nothing to do with trying to stop a 3.

tbyers11
01-26-2012, 12:04 AM
Meh. Maryland played with more intensity but they are still a bad team (157th overall in the country with the 112th best O and 225th rated defense). It was a W and they all count but this team still has a LONG way to go.

I'm not saying Maryland is very good but their efficiency numbers are a bit misleading as they played without Howard and Len for almost all their non-conference games.

Good game tonight especially when our 3's aren't falling. Mason was awesome and Ryan played quite well too. Defense was much better for the majority of the 2nd half.

This team still has lapses where they just seem to lose focus for 3 or 4 possessions at a time. The sequence tonight where 1) Mason fumbled the missed FT out of bounds followed by Howard hitting a 3 then 2) Andre fumbling away a fairly easy pass that led to a Md basket then 3) Kelly missing a wide open Mason by 2 feet on a lob was horribly frustrating at the start of the 2nd half. Seems like if they can maintain their focus and not let one bad play lead to 2 or 3 more they will be so much more effective.

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 12:05 AM
We shot poorly on 3s as we went 3-16.

This is a good point. We shot 18.8% on our three-pointers and still won a road game against a fired-up opponent by double-figures. If we hit even 30% on threes it's a 19 point win; if we hit just a bit below our average (let's say 37.5% instead of our 41% average), we win by 22.

JNort
01-26-2012, 12:23 AM
Clever line, if completely inaccurate. Andre had played four excellent games in a row, coming into tonight's game. Over those four games, he averaged 17.3 ppg, shooting 50% from 3 (on 34 attempts!), 63% on 2s, and 89% on FTs. Tonight his shot wasn't falling but he still managed 4 rebounds and a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. Give the kid a break.



Ryan had 14 points, shooting 67% on 3s, 75% on 2s, and 100% on FTs, and had 3 blocked shots. The only way this could be described as "silent" is if the speaker has wax in his ears.


Huh? Well I see what you are saying but I was referring to Andre on a whole not just 4 games. Even if you include those 4 games it still stands. He would play well in one half then settle down the next. By that line I kind of meant I am not to surprised anymore if he comes out and gets 20 points but the next game gets 2, although one good thing about him in this game is he actually was still working on offense. He usually kind of drifts off when his shot is not going.

Yeah I am aware of how Ryan did but with how well Mason played and how poorly the guards (outside of Rivers) did you never really heard much about Ryan today. He was stellar today but was in Mason's shadow which is fine with me, Mason playing like a boss down low opens things up for Kelly.

Dev11
01-26-2012, 12:38 AM
1. Everybody got out alive. That is the first victory in CP ALWAYS.

2. I actually enjoyed this game more than I've enjoyed a game in a while. This whole dominant big-man thing is pretty cool. Once Mason hit the hook in the second half with his left, I was pretty sure we were on the way to victory. The reverse two-hander signature move made a great appearance, too. If you couldn't enjoy this performance by our bigs, well, I'd say you've been watching too much Duke Basketball :)

3. Though I had to watch on tape delay, I didn't fast forward through all the little timeouts as I would normally when Elmore and Patrick are commentating. I don't know what kind of magic powers Shulman has, but he has figured out how to sit there with Knight and extract every useful bit of basketball knowledge he can without Knight getting angry or cursing for a whole game. Listening to Knight enhances the game experience significantly, particularly given who we normally have to listen to.

greybeard
01-26-2012, 12:45 AM
Not a thing of beauty but played much better in the second half. Mason was a beast, dont know why they never chose to double down on him. Keys to the game were Mason's play and free throws (we hit ours, they didn't and that alone would be the difference in the game)

Game plan: Take away the threes; make the big guys beat you. The Big Guys obliged. There were off-the ball screens set for Mason and perhaps Miles and Ryan. Mason rarely was asked to catch with a guy sealed on his back. He often caught it 12 feet out, faced up. The defender HAD to guard, take away the baseline, or at least try, which left Mason with advantage towards the middle. I really liked seeing Mason and Miles become integral to the passing game, also Ryan when he was playing the second low post guy (when he plays the three position, I think Ryan is the best pass penetrator Duke has). The Plumlees threw some real nice passes for baskets.

Rivers, I thought was huge. The two very tough back to back floaters going right came at an important time when the lead could have gone either way. The layups from the left side going left were TERRIFICALLY masked clear outs. TERRIFICALLY! Maryland's commitment to stopping the three had outside defenders cheating some to the screener so they could go over the screen, whenever possible or leave very little time before Maryland's big could return to guard the shooter. Rivers' first step, a cross over got his shoulder past the defender everytime. No one could keep up with him in that circumstance (you gotta body him to semi keep up with him and funnel him to one, most often two bigs who smoother him. He's beaten these triples with several types of floaters (Curry made a real jnice one too).

Miles I thought was terrific. HERE IS AN EDUCATED (VERY EDUCATED) GUESS: it is NOT that Miles has bad hands, not in the least. What it is I think that Miles is literally mistaken about which muscles are used to come from a bent over position to a more erect position in preparation for elevating, and once he does is still confused about staying relatively erect. Let me explain. If you bend in a relative V shape, your flexor muscles (core in this instance) do the work. Flexors are not made to work for the long hall; they impart real force for short periods. If one group of flexors articulate joints--your forarm toward your shoulder, your heal toward your butt, your chin toward your chest, among others are all firing. Now, if, as I surmise, Miles thinks that his core muscles are responsible for standing up straight, coming from a flexed position to a straight one, then he will keep those flexor muscles constricted. So, when he goes to bring the ball up to shooting, you have all these flexor muscles working against the erectors to accomplish that task and then to hold on as he finishes. His arms move up much faster than the rest of him-I haven't looked carefully and he might even be bringing his arms up relatively flexed--the rest of him is fiercely keeping his chest toward his knees, his chin toward his pectorials, and his hamstrings are fighting his quads against straightening. So, Miles has to exert considerable force to overcome himself--when he breaks through, it's like opening a damn and then the body speeds into straightening, putting even more pressure on his hands to hold onto the ball then when his arms were coming up and the rest of him was being impeded and only started to move and move much slower. Ergo, the arms fling up, get stopped by his phsyiology, and the ball keeps going.

On dunks, he needs to overcome two, perhaps three, crucial flexors, the second of which is likely to be the biggest problem. The first flexor he has to overcome is his bicept. So the arm extension which should be smooth,fluid, graceful and easy is anything but. It requires the weaker erectors (tricepts and the muscle that goes from mid back up through your neck to your jaw and outside your eyes) have to work like crazy to overcome the bicepts and the pectorial muscles which are pulling the arms down along with the head. Again, the timing is way off, and the burst starts to slow down as it approaches full extension, the ball doesn't, which make the ball harder to hold onto, much. Now for the second and perhaps more crucial flexors--the ones that close your hand and fingers. That's right sports fans; you chronically hold your lower belly in, the less subtle and elongated your grip becomes--in other words, the hand and fingers are pulled toward forming a fist. This is Mason's issue--he literally has to become aware of what he does habitually, toes to head, toes to fingers, when he wants to lengthen, and then play around with a sequence of constraints and aides imposed in each of my Man's lessons, to discover something else that is much easier, more effective and pleasing. Even thinking to soften his belly, to let it soften and expand on the exhale as he prepares and moves through extension into jumping will, I believe pay huge dividends.

As it is, I see him making great contributions on both ends of the court. He is playing smart, moving well, rebounding well, making athletic catches and good choices. I loved it when Mason had it on the foul line with no one in front, saw his brother low with the defender around on the inside to defeat a bounce pass in, and so Mason took a dribble towards the basket, forced the guy to come to him, and boom goes the dynamite--a terrific, soft, arching lob to his brother, who did not begin from a flexed position and finished.

Ryan: here are the three main offensive things that I really liked: his move to the middle from the low post to finish left and other moves when he caught it inside; his first three, the placement of his left hand was much further to the side than normal, the shot looked much softer and easier and had more backspin and to me looked like it was in during the delivery and especially the release--I think that that is the way to go for him. I also liked seeing him pass up the three in favor of closing space and taking a much more money two. Ditto for Curry. One other thing about Ryan's game: he did a terrific job of beating his guy from 15 feet with a cross over to the left but did not seem to consistently have the speed to get to the basket and finish without encountering considerable help. How about a pull up off the backboard or a floater or creating a little angle to finish flairing to his left and hooking it high off the board (it really is not a difficult shot even though the angle seems impossible to look at it).

Maryland's offense was really impressive, in my opinion. Their ability to break people down, finish, stop and shoot, and dish to create a scoring chance for the receiver, often uncontested, or with the receiver making a second pass inside for an easy one or outside for an uncontested three. Great spacing, timing, skill, hands, good decision making, by most everyone on the court. The guards are real good. Great win.

I'm still seeing a much smoother (only a very slight hitch but not STOP before release; power generated through the legs pushing into the floor and transfered up the body animating the extension, its tempo and vector and the release, all of which seem easy, smooth, with a relzed quality to his entire body. Good for Mason!

Great decision making by Mason, great job of getting Mason the ball as a first option most of the time by everyone, including Rivers, and athletic catches inside. The decision by Maryland to take away the three (not let Duke trade 3s for 2s at the percentage open Dukies shoot 3s) was a pretty good strategy. Duke defeated it, by going inside to an extremely talented and ever more versatile Mason, who is being joined with some inside scoring by others. I think that the other bigs will have to score more inside, the pass penetration at times can come much more quickly, as one of the bigs come clear with a first step into the middle, and we will need to see much more of these clear out plays (very cool to see both bigs coje high, one of them get it rather high on one side, the other go off a back screen to a wide open path to the basket.

Duke must do this to draw defenses in, to make them give help, and to open opportunities for Duke to get some open threes. I thought that there were too many forced threes by guys who received a pass with room to shoot but could not make a clean catch in shooting position but had to reach down to catch, come up to shooting relatively off balance, and have to rush a bit. Those shots are costly. I am not underestimating the difficulty in getting it delivered in a situation that you are supposed to shoot, you have gotten what Duke lives on, what K is after, but it is just giving the ball away to take those shots, expecially when it is relatively early in the clock.

Maryland was ready and played a terrific offensive game. Duke figured out, undoubtedly with a little help from K, how to diffuse the effectiveness of that inside passing game after dribble penetration, and those easy baskets by Rivers, three of them easy, was too much for Maryland. And, Mason did make those foul shots. A very satisfying game to watch.

Sir Stealth
01-26-2012, 12:50 AM
Hopefully this game was enjoyable for some of the folks out there who worry that we cannot be successful if we are not shooting well from the outside. Plumlees looked great, Kelly was working it from all spots on the floor, and Austin and Seth had some nice drives to the basket in the second half. A healthy Quinn Cook can only help us in this area, and there won't be many games where we shoot 3-16 on 3s or whatever it was.

Utley
01-26-2012, 12:51 AM
It was the MD game in 2010 when Zoubeard emerged and we went on a magic ride. Obviously a tough act to follow but the inside game tonight felt like that big step we needed to take to go to the next level - something that could be really potent with a little outside game to go with it - which we know will come.

I'm still not sold on the D yet but it does seem like the combo of Curry, Austin and Tyler gives us our best shot there as noted earlier.

I got to go the game - the Gary ceremony was really short. I think it was kind of a let down to the MD side. It was very strange - the whole area shut down an hour or two early for about a one minute speech.

Lots of celebs at the game - bunch of MD hoops alumni - Dixon, Hayes - football alumni - Torry Smith, Baltimore Ravens - Ed Reed and of course Scott Van Pelt.

Did anyone else notice that the players were all slipping right around the Gary Williams court signs - does even his signature sweat?

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 01:10 AM
...it does seem like the combo of Curry, Austin and Tyler gives us our best shot there as noted earlier.

Maybe against small teams like Maryland, who started a 6'1, 6'3, 6'4 perimeter against us. Against big perimeters Tyler/Seth/Austin is too small (in my opinion), and our best defensive perimeter is Seth/Austin/Andre.

dcar1985
01-26-2012, 01:25 AM
Maybe against small teams like Maryland, who started a 6'1, 6'3, 6'4 perimeter against us. Against big perimeters Tyler/Seth/Austin is too small (in my opinion), and our best defensive perimeter is Seth/Austin/Andre.

Dre only looks good on defense when he's scoring on offense....Just my opinion of course

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 01:35 AM
Dre only looks good on defense when he's scoring on offense....Just my opinion of course

Andre's goofs are more noticeable, and he doesn't recover well from his mistakes. But he stays in front of his man way better than either Tyler or Quinn and he's harder to shoot over than Tyler or Quinn as well. A lot of people tend to sell Andre short, especially for his defense, but most of the time I believe it's an unfair rap.

Right now, I don't think any of our defensive options on the perimeter are ideal. Each of our perimeter guys have his own strengths and weaknesses. I guess Coach K needs to mix and match more than he usually does.

loldevilz
01-26-2012, 01:46 AM
There is always the hope that Gbinije starts playing some meaningful minutes. I think the ideal perimeter is Curry Rivers Gbinije or Thornton Rivers Dawkins. When Curry and Dawkins are out there together things often get messy.

Olympic Fan
01-26-2012, 01:57 AM
It's always fun to visit opposing message boards after a win, just to lick their tears (a la Cartman and Sxott Tennerman).

It's educational too ... the basic theme on the Maryland boards (and the UNC boards) is that Duke only won the way they always win, because they got all the calls from the refs.

Amazing perception in a game where a bigger, more-inside oriented Duke team was out-shot from the foul line 21-18. And it was only that close because the Terps gave Duke eight free throws in the final 1:17 as they fouled semi-intentionally. Before the closing seconds, Duke had shot just 10 free throws.

I heard the same thiong about our Kansas win (when Kansas outshot us 20-17).

It's interesting that in six ACC games, Duke has attempted eight more free throws than their opponents, barely one more a game.

In five ACC games, Maryland has attempted 40 more free throws than their opponents, eight more a game.

In four ACC games, UNC has attempted 27 more free throws than their opponents, just under seven more a game.

Of course, when bias is so deeply ingrained, facts aren't going to get in the way of the Duke haters' storyline. Heck, I heard Wake fans whining about Duke refs after the outshot us 35-23 in a game we dominated!

sporthenry
01-26-2012, 02:57 AM
If I'm thinking of the same play you are, Andre was trying for a steal on that play. Perhaps not the best decision, but it had nothing to do with trying to stop a 3.

Not at all. I went back to watch it just in case my eyes deceived me, it was at the 9:24 mark. Faust catches the ball above the 3 point line, Dre was coming off a screen. The guy was 35 feet away from the basket and Dre inched closer to Faust and when Faust made a move, Dre wasn't even close to keeping him in front. Again, I'm not sure who is to blame, whether K really wants him pressuring 35 feet from the hoop when its clear he can't stay in front or if Dre is just trying too hard. But we have to get back to that sagging off we did in 2010 and only defend along the 3 point line unless a shooter changes that.

tommy
01-26-2012, 03:15 AM
Great post!

I used to wonder why Dawkins would get in K's doghouse so fast and not play for long stretches the last two years. With all the amazing micro analysis of possessions going on this year on DBR I have been watching Dawkins on D away from the ball a lot more and I now fully appreciate why he doesn't get consistent minutes.

I believe our D got better in the 2nd half because he played a lot less. As amazing as his outside shot is, he just doesn't stay focused when his man doesn't have the ball. He forces others into continual help and recover scenarios.

You, sir, are correct.

Starter
01-26-2012, 03:20 AM
I really, really hope Cook's knee is okay. Thornton hung in there better than he had been in previous games, but if you strip away four late free throws when Maryland was in foul mode, he had three points, two assists and four turnovers in 29 minutes. This offense is so much more fluid when someone with the capacity to make plays has the ball, which is why Duke pulled away late when Rivers was making things happen out there off the bounce. I also think it helps Curry to have Cook out there with him. Wasn't someone tracking his stats with Thornton, and they were horrendous -- for seemingly obvious reasons?

All that said, a good road victory at a traditionally hostile environment. I love when Rivers is as aggressive as he was tonight, and Mason was tremendous. As for Gary Williams? Well, I have no love lost for Gary Williams.

tommy
01-26-2012, 03:24 AM
There were off-the ball screens set for Mason and perhaps Miles and Ryan. Mason rarely was asked to catch with a guy sealed on his back. He often caught it 12 feet out, faced up.

Rarely? That's exactly what Mason did. All. Night. Long. He established strong post position down low, with his back to the basket. He received good, solid entry passes, and he made his move. Usually with a dribble or two into the middle for the little hook, but also made an up-and-under (or two) and that was it. No face-ups, no drives from anywhere near 12 feet out.

mkline09
01-26-2012, 07:08 AM
Was a really weird game. At times it felt like Duke should be down by like 15 instead they were withing one or two early and then took a slim lead that they held on to for most of the game. I think they only trailed once after half time. Everyone else said Mason was a beast so don't need to go back over that.

Good win on the road in a hostile environment. And for the first time I felt that Duke showed signs of that killer instict. They built on a slim late lead instead of having it disappear. Hit free throws and my God who is that guy wearing No. 5 shooting free throws? I thought Mason Plumlee wore No. 5.

Again a good win, but Maryland doesn't seem to be a great team, but they are scrappy and I couldn't help but wondering if this game might have come out a bit differently had old Gary been coaching.

jv001
01-26-2012, 07:42 AM
There is always the hope that Gbinije starts playing some meaningful minutes. I think the ideal perimeter is Curry Rivers Gbinije or Thornton Rivers Dawkins. When Curry and Dawkins are out there together things often get messy.

I think Michael Gbinije will be a good player for Duke, but I don't see Michael getting many minutes this year even when healthy. I would say that his defense may be the worst on the team. I believe tommy's charting has proved this out. As for Andre he has come a long way in defending, but he still has a way to go. It's not physical limitations but lack of focus. He loses sight of his man too often, but this can be corrected. I agree that when he's making 3s he seems to play a better all around game. But last night was not a terrible game for Andre. Not good, not bad, just average. He can't shoot lights out every night. His previous 4 games were very good. GoDuke!

77devil
01-26-2012, 08:02 AM
Our perimeter defense was poor again against a weak team and is not improving. In fact, defensive performance is getting worse statistically. We're ranked in the 80s in adj. defensive efficiency having never been below 20 before in 10 years and frequently in the top 10, if not the top 5. No doubt Coach K is doing what he can in practice, but this year we clearly don't have the quickness on the perimeter, and possibly the willingness of some on the court to play hard D all the time.

DukeGirl4ever
01-26-2012, 08:09 AM
I think that in high school Austin was The Man and had the ball in his hands every possession and it was fine for him to jack up 30 foot shots with abandon. Now he's having to adjust to sharing the ball and getting his teammates involved. Yet there are still times that we need him to be selfish and take over. It's a tough juggling act but he's learning and seems to have the right attitude. Definitely not ready for the nba.

From the games that I watched him play in high school (and that was limited to what was on TV), I absolutely agree. He would single-handedly try to bring his team back from a double digit deficit by shooting 3's most times down the court. That's what competitive people do and I think he is our most competitive guy.

It takes a lot to get out of that mind set and I do see improvements from him. He just wants to win and wants to help his team do that in any way he can. The one thing I want to see him improve on is when he gets in the lane, I want him to be able to read the defense, not always put up a shot, and find his open teammates. I'm still baffled at some of the weird shots he takes in end game situations, but that comes from his competitive nature and will to win. He will improve on that.

I like what I saw from him against FSU at the end of the game. I really like the drives he had against Maryland in the second half when both our bigs were at the high post and we cleared the lane for him. He's improving...I think he just needs more time with THE MASTER.

Ichabod Drain
01-26-2012, 08:18 AM
Rarely? That's exactly what Mason did. All. Night. Long. He established strong post position down low, with his back to the basket. He received good, solid entry passes, and he made his move. Usually with a dribble or two into the middle for the little hook, but also made an up-and-under (or two) and that was it. No face-ups, no drives from anywhere near 12 feet out.

He definitely faced up a few times throughout the night because i specifically remember him pump faking and me thinking "come on mason, we all know your not going to shoot from there".

moonpie23
01-26-2012, 08:57 AM
i don't want to say anything out loud, but, SOMEONE ( i won't name names, but their initials are MASON PLUMLEE) was wicked-tough on the free throw line last night.....


shhhh...

DukieInBrasil
01-26-2012, 09:09 AM
He definitely faced up a few times throughout the night because i specifically remember him pump faking and me thinking "come on mason, we all know your not going to shoot from there".

I may be wrong but i think the OP was referring to actually taking face-up jumpers, which Mason did not do. GB's original OP referred to face-ups and i don't think he meant taking jumpers, but rather receiving the ball facing the basket.
I remember one sequence in the 2nd half where MP II got the ball about 10 ft out w Len on him, and Len just backed off daring MP II to shoot the jumper and he didn't. He dribbled into Len's body, got him on his back and attempted a jump hook in the lane.

DukeCO2009
01-26-2012, 09:20 AM
I was really pleased with the team's resolve tonight, particularly in such a hostile environment. It's always good to come out of College Park with a win, and to get one on a night when your bread-and-butter (the 3-ball) isn't falling is huge for a young team. That said, I noticed the continuation of a few trends/habits that, IMO, the Devils need to work in if they want to become an elite team:

1) Austin really, really doesn't like laying it up lefty. It's gotten him into trouble a lot this year, but against a smaller team like Maryland it didn't show as much. A couple of his lay-ups last night, both of which were huge momentum shots, were right-handed lay-ups shot from the left side of the basket. Against taller teams, Austin needs to learn to use his ride hand to shield his shot and go up strong with his left hand. Going up with the wrong hand not only makes shots easier to block; it effectively turns the rim into a second defender.

2) As others have discussed in the defense thread, Duke's rotation on drives needs work. When a big guy steps up to help after opposing guards drive by our guards, the other post players do a poor job rotating to cover the help-side defender's man. Most of the time, this results in an easy lay-in for the other team. The big men did a better job moving in the second half, which was encouraging. The first half was ugly.

3) Communication on defense isn't where it should be at this point in the season, which manifests itself in a several ways. The two main ways are poor rotation (see above), and poor screen play. Duke got caught doubling the ball-handler several times and is lucky Maryland didn't do a better job capitalizing. Other teams have taken advantage of Duke this year by setting lots of ball screens and either rolling the screener to the basket or flairing him our for a wide open jumper. It's not like these teams have a Stockton and Malone combo, either. The guy defending the ball and the guy defending the screener need to TALK and establish whether or not they're going to switch on a given pick. IMO, given Duke's relative lack of lateral quickness this year, the guys need to do more switching and not hedge so hard.

Reilly
01-26-2012, 09:27 AM
.... I couldn't help but wondering if this game might have come out a bit differently had old Gary been coaching.

MD looked like they played awfully hard and smart -- I don't think Gary's fire and sweat would have changed last night's outcome. Curious as to Gary's career stats ... if I counted correctly, Gary at Maryland was 14-39 against Duke (26%), 12-39 against K (24%). From the 1999-00 season through the 2006-07 season, Duke did only hold an 11-9 advantage. In half of his years (11 of 22 on the bench), he didn't win a game against Duke.

Duke won the season series 3-0 4x (90, 92, 09, 11).
Duke won the season series 2-0 7x (91, 93, 94, 98, 99, 06, 08).
Duke won the season series 3-1 1x (01).
Duke won the season series 2-1 3x (96, 00, 04).
The series was tied 1-1 4x (97, 02, 03, 10).
MD won the season series 2-0 3x (95, 05, 07).

rsvman
01-26-2012, 09:29 AM
Andre's goofs are more noticeable, and he doesn't recover well from his mistakes. But he stays in front of his man way better than either Tyler or Quinn and he's harder to shoot over than Tyler or Quinn as well. A lot of people tend to sell Andre short, especially for his defense, but most of the time I believe it's an unfair rap.

......

+1. I've been saying this all season. If you watch Andre play defense when his man does not have the ball, most of the time he not only does an adequate job, he does a very good job, especially in denying his man the ball. When he has defensive breakdowns, they're obvious and sometimes spectacular, so they get noticed. Thereafter, people LOOK for him to make errors, and notice them when he does; but they don't look for his successes, nor do they notice them.

If he could cut out those 1-3 errors during the course of a game, I feel like he would not only not be a liability, but he would be a huge asset on D. Depending on match-ups, there are times when we really need his length on the defensive side of the court.

superdave
01-26-2012, 09:36 AM
There is always the hope that Gbinije starts playing some meaningful minutes. I think the ideal perimeter is Curry Rivers Gbinije or Thornton Rivers Dawkins. When Curry and Dawkins are out there together things often get messy.

I would not hold my breath on Silent G getting big minutes unless something goes bad like an injury or total disappearing act for 2 of the guys in our current perimeter rotation. I dont think Mike has earned his way into big minutes yet, and at this point in the season it seems unlikely.

jjasper0729
01-26-2012, 09:37 AM
3) Communication on defense isn't where it should be at this point in the season, which manifests itself in a several ways. The two main ways are poor rotation (see above), and poor screen play. Duke got caught doubling the ball-handler several times and is lucky Maryland didn't do a better job capitalizing. Other teams have taken advantage of Duke this year by setting lots of ball screens and either rolling the screener to the basket or flairing him our for a wide open jumper. It's not like these teams have a Stockton and Malone combo, either. The guy defending the ball and the guy defending the screener need to TALK and establish whether or not they're going to switch on a given pick. IMO, given Duke's relative lack of lateral quickness this year, the guys need to do more switching and not hedge so hard.

I noticed this a few times as well. The most striking was in the first half when the MD guard drove the left baseline and we had three (count them 3) defenders on him. He did a wrap around pass to a big for an easy dunk. If the communication had been there, then someone would have stayed "home" and the pass wouldn't have been available.

superdave
01-26-2012, 09:42 AM
Rarely? That's exactly what Mason did. All. Night. Long. He established strong post position down low, with his back to the basket. He received good, solid entry passes, and he made his move. Usually with a dribble or two into the middle for the little hook, but also made an up-and-under (or two) and that was it. No face-ups, no drives from anywhere near 12 feet out.


He definitely faced up a few times throughout the night because i specifically remember him pump faking and me thinking "come on mason, we all know your not going to shoot from there".

I thought Mason got the ball further out this game than you would think was ideal, like in the 12 - 15 foot range. He was not getting entry passes on the blocks. He was far enough out to where he had to make a move or two to get closer in otherwise he's shooting a low percentage jumper over his defender. I think was the point that was made in the original post. I would not describe his position as "down low" but more of a clearout/isolation position. His typical move was two to three dribbles into the paint then a quick step and a hook shot.

Bob Green
01-26-2012, 09:47 AM
Meh. Maryland played with more intensity but they are still a bad team (157th overall in the country with the 112th best O and 225th rated defense). It was a W and they all count but this team still has a LONG way to go.

Perhaps your glass is half empty, while mine is half full.

fuse
01-26-2012, 09:52 AM
As much as we would all like to see a season where we stomp on everyone by 20+ points and finish the ACC 16-0, this is not that season. I enjoy watching the team play but we lack a killer instinct to put games away, and our defense is uncharacteristically poor relative to past expectations.

I am sure we will have a great season but I also expect every game to be competitive up to the end. Approaching the season this way is saving me a great deal of heartburn and angst.

-g

Saratoga2
01-26-2012, 10:11 AM
Maybe against small teams like Maryland, who started a 6'1, 6'3, 6'4 perimeter against us. Against big perimeters Tyler/Seth/Austin is too small (in my opinion), and our best defensive perimeter is Seth/Austin/Andre.

I am with you on Austin and Andre as the best options for guard in the game on defense. I think their size and mobility is best and also the turnover versus successful plays is better than some others. I am not as sold on Seth in that regard. I do think he has quick hands and should know the defense but I still don't like his handle and playmaking ability that much.

In my view, some matchups might dictate having a quick ball handler in the game or a hardnosed defender in the game. That is especially true when Seth is taking a significant number of the teams shots and is hitting very few. The last two games in particular have been examples of this. Quinn hasn't been available so Tyler was the only real option. Perhaps Quinn and Michael will be available for the next game and if so I hope the coaches remain flexible based on what is happening on the floor. Michael seems to have regressed a little recently, but the size and mobility he has could still become important in later games.

Reilly
01-26-2012, 10:22 AM
As much as we would all like to see a season where we stomp on everyone ... this is not that season. ... I am sure we will have a great season ...

In the past fifteen years (1997-98 to the present), after twenty games, Duke was:

19-1: 8 times (1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, 2011)
18-2: 3 times (2000, 2005, 2009)
17-3: 3 times (2007, 2010, 2012)
16-4: 1 time (2003)

I agree we seem less strong and more fragile this year, even though 17-3. Interesting the fine distinctions we can make in our assessments, given the rare air (16-4 to 19-1 range) that Duke plays in -- a testament to how closely we follow, I guess. The casual fan may see top 10 Duke team, 17-3, and think it's all the same.

MCFinARL
01-26-2012, 10:36 AM
I notice the mods haven't started an MOTM thread yet--is it because it's so obviously Mason that they don't feel they need to bother? ;)

DUKIE V(A)
01-26-2012, 10:41 AM
Dre only looks good on defense when he's scoring on offense....Just my opinion of course

I have noticed that Dre tends to get going offensively after a nice steal and dunk.

COYS
01-26-2012, 10:44 AM
I couldn't watch the game until this morning, but I managed to avoid finding out the score ahead of time. I don't see how anyone could be anything but happy with this win. We all know that away games are a different beast and, more importantly, away games against Maryland are always tough. Also, while I love Kenpom and his site, remember that Maryland wasn't at full strength for the entire first part of the season. Maryland is not an upper-echelon ACC team, but they are better than their current ranking and I suspect will move up a bit as the season goes on.

With all of that being considered, Duke came in, got punched in the face early on in the game but punched back quite nicely. I was disappointed in our execution down the stretch in the first half. We had a chance to change our seven point lead into double digits or at least make it 9 before the half. Instead we let Maryland claw their way back. However, we fought hard again in the second half when we were punched in the mouth again, adjusted to what the defense was giving us, and built and maintained a lead all the way through to the end. Maryland did a very good job staying home on our three point shooters, which meant that Mason couldn't kick out from the post to an open shooter on the perimeter as frequently as we usually do. However, the flip-side of that strategy was to give Mason the lane . . . and he took full advantage. There were a few possessions when we were threatening to run away with the game that we failed to get him the ball in the post, but for the most part, we kept going back to Mason, who capitalized on the opportunities he got. Even though Maryland took away some of our usual opportunities from the arc, we also missed a fair number of open ones. Austin, Andre and Seth all badly missed wide open shots in the game. However, we didn't let those misses derail our offense.

Defensively, the team buckled down and played well after the first 10 minutes of the game or so, with a few lapses in the second half, as well. I doubt Duke is going to transform into a defensive juggernaut overnight, but if we can just avoid those stretches where our defense is absent on multiple possessions in a row, it will go a long way toward making us a better team.

Anyway, Mason was obviously MOTM with Kelly playing a nice supporting role despite some minor foul trouble (those mid-range jumpers were killers). Austin made some mistakes, but he also played a major role in helping us rebuild our lead in the second half after Maryland had cut it down to a few points. He took an ill-advised three and made a bad drive to the basket while we were nursing our lead. However, he made some excellent reads that built the lead in the first place. I don't think his feel is "terrible" as some say. I just think he's still learning. Tonight, especially in the second half, most of his decisions were good.

Finally, nothing worries me about Seth right now. He missed some open shots, and that is surprising because he's usually so good. However, give him those open shots again and he'll hit 'em. The Terps were lucky he had an off-night. Otherwise this game would've been over much sooner.

DUKIE V(A)
01-26-2012, 10:44 AM
It's always fun to visit opposing message boards after a win, just to lick their tears (a la Cartman and Sxott Tennerman).

It's educational too ... the basic theme on the Maryland boards (and the UNC boards) is that Duke only won the way they always win, because they got all the calls from the refs.

Amazing perception in a game where a bigger, more-inside oriented Duke team was out-shot from the foul line 21-18. And it was only that close because the Terps gave Duke eight free throws in the final 1:17 as they fouled semi-intentionally. Before the closing seconds, Duke had shot just 10 free throws.

I heard the same thiong about our Kansas win (when Kansas outshot us 20-17).

It's interesting that in six ACC games, Duke has attempted eight more free throws than their opponents, barely one more a game.

In five ACC games, Maryland has attempted 40 more free throws than their opponents, eight more a game.

In four ACC games, UNC has attempted 27 more free throws than their opponents, just under seven more a game.

Of course, when bias is so deeply ingrained, facts aren't going to get in the way of the Duke haters' storyline. Heck, I heard Wake fans whining about Duke refs after the outshot us 35-23 in a game we dominated!


Why must you insist on the facts? ;)

Thanks for sharing this...

DUKIE V(A)
01-26-2012, 10:54 AM
I really, really hope Cook's knee is okay. Thornton hung in there better than he had been in previous games, but if you strip away four late free throws when Maryland was in foul mode, he had three points, two assists and four turnovers in 29 minutes. This offense is so much more fluid when someone with the capacity to make plays has the ball, which is why Duke pulled away late when Rivers was making things happen out there off the bounce. I also think it helps Curry to have Cook out there with him. Wasn't someone tracking his stats with Thornton, and they were horrendous -- for seemingly obvious reasons?

All that said, a good road victory at a traditionally hostile environment. I love when Rivers is as aggressive as he was tonight, and Mason was tremendous. As for Gary Williams? Well, I have no love lost for Gary Williams.

I'm with you on wanting Cook back healthy and soon, but Tyler did not have any turnovers last night (and in fact only has 3 total in the 6 ACC games so far).

toooskies
01-26-2012, 11:06 AM
It's educational too ... the basic theme on the Maryland boards (and the UNC boards) is that Duke only won the way they always win, because they got all the calls from the refs.


I think this specifically has to do with the charge called against MD which Thornton took, followed up soon after by a block on the Thornton drive. To my untrained eye, they looked like very similar plays that should've been called the same way (either both charges or both blocking; they were borderline). Duke benefitted from both close calls in a decisive period of the game.

It's not the ratios; it's whatever stood out in their mind as wrong. When your team loses, you don't want to have to blame them.

Luckily, we Dukies know the line, "to be good enough to win, you must overcome poor officiating."

MCFinARL
01-26-2012, 11:36 AM
I think this specifically has to do with the charge called against MD which Thornton took, followed up soon after by a block on the Thornton drive. To my untrained eye, they looked like very similar plays that should've been called the same way (either both charges or both blocking; they were borderline). Duke benefitted from both close calls in a decisive period of the game.

It's not the ratios; it's whatever stood out in their mind as wrong. When your team loses, you don't want to have to blame them.

Luckily, we Dukies know the line, "to be good enough to win, you must overcome poor officiating."

Although I don't remember the two calls you mention well enough to comment on them specifically, your intuition seems right that a couple of key calls, rather than totals, are usually driving this kind of perception.

There have actually been studies that show--not surprisingly--that being a fan of a particular team biases one's evaluation of officiating. Shown videos of close or disputed calls, fans of each team tend to see the call as correct if it favored their team and wrong if it went against their team; neutral observers break more evenly. Add that natural bias to the chronic "Duke gets all the calls" meme and it's no wonder opposing fan bases react this way when they play Duke.

It is irritating though, especially when one can usually find (and last night is no exception) seemingly bad calls that went against Duke as well as ones that favored them.

FerryFor50
01-26-2012, 11:51 AM
Although I don't remember the two calls you mention well enough to comment on them specifically, your intuition seems right that a couple of key calls, rather than totals, are usually driving this kind of perception.

There have actually been studies that show--not surprisingly--that being a fan of a particular team biases one's evaluation of officiating. Shown videos of close or disputed calls, fans of each team tend to see the call as correct if it favored their team and wrong if it went against their team; neutral observers break more evenly. Add that natural bias to the chronic "Duke gets all the calls" meme and it's no wonder opposing fan bases react this way when they play Duke.

It is irritating though, especially when one can usually find (and last night is no exception) seemingly bad calls that went against Duke as well as ones that favored them.

I remember the calls.

The reason why Thornton's drive wasn't a charge is because he was fouled by the *other* Maryland defender on the layup before he "charged" into the Maryland player trying to draw the foul. Once the block was called on the other defender, the play is dead, unless the player picks up a technical foul.

The one Thornton drew, I could see why a Maryland fan would not like it. He was moving in to the Maryland player, plus the ref was very indecisive in making the call and had to get help from his colleague. Add that to the "Duke gets all the calls" mentality, as well as the idea that Duke somehow invented taking a charge and you get the gist of why Maryland fans wanted to cry about it. Well, that, and they're Maryland fans.

greybeard
01-26-2012, 11:52 AM
I really, really hope Cook's knee is okay. Thornton hung in there better than he had been in previous games, but if you strip away four late free throws when Maryland was in foul mode, he had three points, two assists and four turnovers in 29 minutes. This offense is so much more fluid when someone with the capacity to make plays has the ball, which is why Duke pulled away late when Rivers was making things happen out there off the bounce. I also think it helps Curry to have Cook out there with him. Wasn't someone tracking his stats with Thornton, and they were horrendous -- for seemingly obvious reasons?

All that said, a good road victory at a traditionally hostile environment. I love when Rivers is as aggressive as he was tonight, and Mason was tremendous. As for Gary Williams? Well, I have no love lost for Gary Williams.

When Curry was missing from long, often on shots that were rushed or off low passes that made shooting improvident, it was as good (bad) as a giveaway. In that circumstance, I think that the game is better left in Tyler's hands. He settles the offense, and more often than not, is a facilitator not initiator, and tends to generate better ball and player movement and overall better play in the half court. Maybe it is because, K tends to call more set pieces that come later in the offense and the team is to play safe until the offensive set, and its options, is initiated, or maybe it is because, Tyler leads by example (it is possible that Tyler's presence in the game is a signal that K wants everyone playing that way), or both.

Tyler defends in a way that no other Duke player does--you know you have been defender by one tough, solid, and all out defender, who will stripe dive, try to take charges that will leave you worse for wear. Tyler will also make you go where the outside help is, in the lefty kid's case, it was to his right and once the help was there, sometimes two guys, an outside player and an interior defender moving to cut off the midrange, Tyler seemed intent on cutting off reversal to his left. The kid went off early through the middle of the second half, but seemed to be quieted through the last ten minutes. If so, that is what Tyler does for you.

I thought Curry took some improvident shots and was having a difficult time getting decent looks or decent opportunities off penetration that are usually available. Duke's offense the second half I thought was quite effective. We don't notice Tyler, but he is out there, his man does not leave him, and when he does, Tyler will make him pay and more often than not succeed.

So, Tyler is the one guy on Duke who can wear a hot and quick guard down, he will cause and get all kinds of loose balls and let people know that he was there if he doesn't, and, on offense, insures that the guys who can score and make plays, which more and more involve pass penetration, do. How come the kid he was guarding missed all those free throws, especially in the second half? Bad luck, I guess.

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 12:12 PM
Wasn't someone tracking his stats with Thornton, and they were horrendous -- for seemingly obvious reasons?

It was me, and I've stopped tracking it, but last night would appear to be another data point in favor of the idea that Tyler is not good for Seth's offense.


But we have to get back to that sagging off we did in 2010 and only defend along the 3 point line unless a shooter changes that.

Actually, I think this is a popular misconception about our 2010 team. That team held opponents to by far the lowest percentage from 3-land in the last 16 years. In 2010, we held opponents to 28.3% on threes, and our 2nd best performance since 1997 in this area was 30.1% in 1999. Our national champion 2001 team allowed opponents to hit 34.4% of their threes.

In fact, as I pointed out in the "what's wrong with our defense" thread, if you analyze the "four factors" that contribute to defensive efficiency, it appears the main reason our defense was so strong in 2010 was our three-point D.

Of course, that team went 6'2, 6'5, 6'8 on the perimeter, so long bodies and arms may have allowed them to pack it in and still close out well on three-point shooters. I don't know if this year's team has that luxury, so I'm not sure getting back to 2010-style D would help us that much.

Duvall
01-26-2012, 12:32 PM
I remember the calls.

The reason why Thornton's drive wasn't a charge is because he was fouled by the *other* Maryland defender on the layup before he "charged" into the Maryland player trying to draw the foul. Once the block was called on the other defender, the play is dead, unless the player picks up a technical foul.

The one Thornton drew, I could see why a Maryland fan would not like it. He was moving in to the Maryland player, plus the ref was very indecisive in making the call and had to get help from his colleague.

Unintended consequences - refs now give nearly unlimited latitude to players as long as they remain outside the all-important charge circle. They've been getting those calls wrong all year.

Duke71
01-26-2012, 12:55 PM
In fact, as I pointed out in the "what's wrong with our defense" thread, if you analyze the "four factors" that contribute to defensive efficiency, it appears the main reason our defense was so strong in 2010 was our three-point D.

Of course, that team went 6'2, 6'5, 6'8 on the perimeter, so long bodies and arms may have allowed them to pack it in and still close out well on three-point shooters. I don't know if this year's team has that luxury, so I'm not sure getting back to 2010-style D would help us that much.

Kedsy:

That's actually a good, plausible bit of analytical conjecture. I can buy that possibility from a player's vantage point. Ultimately stats by themselves have only limited value. The understanding and interpretation of what the ongoing issues are is far more important. I like that you're keeping your brain engaged beyond the pure numbers. Each team, also, has to "find" its own personality that it can predictably rely on. Ours hasn't found it yet, and alas there is no stat that will make all of us nod our heads when and if that happens.

-bdbd
01-26-2012, 01:24 PM
Regarding the opponent message boards - I too really enjoy lurking there occasionally. It is interesting to see the other perspective. You also quickly get the "sense" of a team's fanbase. MD fans, for instance, seem much more inclined to irrational ranting (and nobody triues to inject rationality). If you come from the indefensibly irrational "Duke gets all the calls" and "the refs try to help Duke" mentality, then EVERY call that goes for Duke, no matter how valid, is just "proof" in the conspiracy...

I was at the game last night. (BTW, I thought the crowd was less belligerent/obscene than in years past. The MD Admin had done a couple things to tone it down - moreso than Gary and Yow ever did.) Lots of Duke fans in blue attire and I didn't see any attacks. And none of the usual oscene chants from the crowd.

I was trying to stay pretty quiet, but wanted to share a couple observations from the crowd. In the second half, when MD finally got their second foul, about 8 minutes in (!), on a play that was completely screened from our seats, one MD fan sitting immediately behind us turned to another MD fan next to him and just screamed, "We can't BUY a foul call!!" My brother-in-Law, a MD grad, sitting next to me, just turned to me and rolled his eyes - b/c at the time I think the 2nd half foul totals were 5 against Duke and now 2 against MD... A group sitting in front of us, all game long, screamed at the "f___ing blind refs!" with EVERY call that went against MD or for Duke." Honestly, all night long, I never heard a single MD fan say (or counter their irrational pals) that a pro-Duke call was the right one. And the final foul tally for the night, which I admit doesn't tell the whole story of the reffing, was 17 against us and 18 against them - even AFTER 4-5 late "intentional" fouls by the Terps.

I think it is in the nature of fans. Many people go to these games just to vent. As an "outlet." And a school like MD, which I think has a lot of folks predisposed to a sense of persecution - others here have called in 'an inferiority complex' - there's no check to try to force any reasonable-ness. Not like we don't have fans in CIS screaming at the refs too, but I just see more of a peer-pressure thing there to keep it at least somewhat rational...

The good news was that there were no riots afterwards. On the MD radio station they were talking about the local and state troopers out "in force" and "highly visible" around College Park right after the game. See, they CAN learn! :rolleyes:



It's always fun to visit opposing message boards after a win, just to lick their tears (a la Cartman and Sxott Tennerman).

It's educational too ... the basic theme on the Maryland boards (and the UNC boards) is that Duke only won the way they always win, because they got all the calls from the refs.

Amazing perception in a game where a bigger, more-inside oriented Duke team was out-shot from the foul line 21-18. And it was only that close because the Terps gave Duke eight free throws in the final 1:17 as they fouled semi-intentionally. Before the closing seconds, Duke had shot just 10 free throws.

I heard the same thiong about our Kansas win (when Kansas outshot us 20-17).

It's interesting that in six ACC games, Duke has attempted eight more free throws than their opponents, barely one more a game.

In five ACC games, Maryland has attempted 40 more free throws than their opponents, eight more a game.

In four ACC games, UNC has attempted 27 more free throws than their opponents, just under seven more a game.

Of course, when bias is so deeply ingrained, facts aren't going to get in the way of the Duke haters' storyline. Heck, I heard Wake fans whining about Duke refs after the outshot us 35-23 in a game we dominated!

Someone on here a couple years ago went back, I think, and looked at FT totals for the preceeding X number of years (10?) in the ACC, and UNC had the biggest advantage, by far, of any team in the conference. I think Duke was maybe third. Urban legends die hard, especially with some media and fan folks who have a vested interest in perpetuatiing them. My fave example of all time was Stuart Scott in Sport Center following up a Duke game at FSU about 6 years ago, with a story headlined "Does Duke get all of the calls?" They then showed a highlight from the game of Sheldon blocking a shot and asking, "for example, shouldn't this have been a goal-tending call?" (honest answer: NO) But the story hinted strongly that there was, indeed, a disparity in the league favoring Duke with foul calls. It is funny b/c, in the game that preceded SC, Duke had lost to FSU by three I believe, and had more than double the number of fouls as FSU (like 15-30) and had every single starter foul out. And so the myth is perpetuated in the face of reality.

I think this specifically has to do with the charge called against MD which Thornton took, followed up soon after by a block on the Thornton drive. To my untrained eye, they looked like very similar plays that should've been called the same way (either both charges or both blocking; they were borderline). Duke benefitted from both close calls in a decisive period of the game.

It's not the ratios; it's whatever stood out in their mind as wrong. When your team loses, you don't want to have to blame them.

Luckily, we Dukies know the line, "to be good enough to win, you must overcome poor officiating."


Although I don't remember the two calls you mention well enough to comment on them specifically, your intuition seems right that a couple of key calls, rather than totals, are usually driving this kind of perception.

There have actually been studies that show--not surprisingly--that being a fan of a particular team biases one's evaluation of officiating. Shown videos of close or disputed calls, fans of each team tend to see the call as correct if it favored their team and wrong if it went against their team; neutral observers break more evenly. Add that natural bias to the chronic "Duke gets all the calls" meme and it's no wonder opposing fan bases react this way when they play Duke.

It is irritating though, especially when one can usually find (and last night is no exception) seemingly bad calls that went against Duke as well as ones that favored them.
I strongly agree with this point. Fans never seem to recall the close ones that went in favor of their team, just those "incompetent refs" calling any close ones against them. Selective memories. It's part of being a fan. :rolleyes: Obviously there were many "close" calls that went against Duke last night too. But good luck pointing that out to those fans!


I remember the calls.

The reason why Thornton's drive wasn't a charge is because he was fouled by the *other* Maryland defender on the layup before he "charged" into the Maryland player trying to draw the foul. Once the block was called on the other defender, the play is dead, unless the player picks up a technical foul.

The one Thornton drew, I could see why a Maryland fan would not like it. He was moving in to the Maryland player, plus the ref was very indecisive in making the call and had to get help from his colleague. Add that to the "Duke gets all the calls" mentality, as well as the idea that Duke somehow invented taking a charge and you get the gist of why Maryland fans wanted to cry about it. Well, that, and they're Maryland fans.

dukejim1
01-26-2012, 02:17 PM
Best performance by a Duke big since...?

Austin was huge too, with four big drives for layups during crucial points in the second half. They could have opened up a significant lead at a few points.

Also thought Thornton was quietly effective, aside from a few bad defensive plays.

Great win considering the foe and place, and that Curry and Dawkins were nonexistent.


since.... Mason last year 25 and 12 against Marquette
2010 Zoubek against Maryland and Brian Williams 16 and 17 in 22 mins

superdave
01-26-2012, 02:20 PM
I think Al Featherston did an extensive analysis of foul statistics during the J.J. Redick years. (Also...anyone remember J.J. having to get a new jersey after a few games because it was ripped-stretched from guys just grabbing and holding him?)

No one got more calls than Hansborough. That guy crawled up and over the back of a couple hundred ACC opponents in his four college years and got to shoot free throws for his trouble. Even Maryland fans would agree with us on that one.

devildeac
01-26-2012, 02:30 PM
I think Al Featherston did an extensive analysis of foul statistics during the J.J. Redick years. (Also...anyone remember J.J. having to get a new jersey after a few games because it was ripped-stretched from guys just grabbing and holding him?)

No one got more calls than Hansborough. That guy crawled up and over the back of a couple hundred ACC opponents in his four college years and got to shoot free throws for his trouble. Even Maryland fans would agree with us on that one.

And State fans...

And Wake fans...

and...

MChambers
01-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Having said that, our performance will probably hurt our defensive efficiency on Pomeroy. Our raw defensive efficiency was 98.3, against a so-so offense. The good news is our 2nd half D was better than our first half D.
Close, but not quite. Defensive efficiency improved a little, to 87th. Of course, that could have been due to other results, such as deterioration by teams with similar efficiency numbers or outstanding performances by our earlier opponents.

Still very poor, by Duke standards.

lotusland
01-26-2012, 03:12 PM
There have actually been studies that show--not surprisingly--that being a fan of a particular team biases one's evaluation of officiating. Shown videos of close or disputed calls, fans of each team tend to see the call as correct if it favored their team and wrong if it went against their team; neutral observers break more evenly. Add that natural bias to the chronic "Duke gets all the calls" meme and it's no wonder opposing fan bases react this way when they play Duke.

.


Thank goodness Duke fans aren't biased about the refs and announcers being biased;)

Starter
01-26-2012, 03:42 PM
I'm with you on wanting Cook back healthy and soon, but Tyler did not have any turnovers last night (and in fact only has 3 total in the 6 ACC games so far).

Ah yes, my bad. I meant to say four fouls.

Starter
01-26-2012, 04:01 PM
When Curry was missing from long, often on shots that were rushed or off low passes that made shooting improvident, it was as good (bad) as a giveaway. In that circumstance, I think that the game is better left in Tyler's hands. He settles the offense, and more often than not, is a facilitator not initiator, and tends to generate better ball and player movement and overall better play in the half court. Maybe it is because, K tends to call more set pieces that come later in the offense and the team is to play safe until the offensive set, and its options, is initiated, or maybe it is because, Tyler leads by example (it is possible that Tyler's presence in the game is a signal that K wants everyone playing that way), or both.

Tyler defends in a way that no other Duke player does--you know you have been defender by one tough, solid, and all out defender, who will stripe dive, try to take charges that will leave you worse for wear. Tyler will also make you go where the outside help is, in the lefty kid's case, it was to his right and once the help was there, sometimes two guys, an outside player and an interior defender moving to cut off the midrange, Tyler seemed intent on cutting off reversal to his left. The kid went off early through the middle of the second half, but seemed to be quieted through the last ten minutes. If so, that is what Tyler does for you.

I thought Curry took some improvident shots and was having a difficult time getting decent looks or decent opportunities off penetration that are usually available. Duke's offense the second half I thought was quite effective. We don't notice Tyler, but he is out there, his man does not leave him, and when he does, Tyler will make him pay and more often than not succeed.

So, Tyler is the one guy on Duke who can wear a hot and quick guard down, he will cause and get all kinds of loose balls and let people know that he was there if he doesn't, and, on offense, insures that the guys who can score and make plays, which more and more involve pass penetration, do. How come the kid he was guarding missed all those free throws, especially in the second half? Bad luck, I guess.

I literally couldn't disagree more on a lot of this. I don't think the offense flows better with Thornton -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and I think you dramatically overstate his impact on defense. He's pesky, but I'd probably make that the extent of it. It's not like I've seen him destroying people this year like Chris Carrawell used to do to Steve Francis. (Also, I think it's a bit of a reach to give him credit for somehow causing an opponent to miss free throws.)

That said, I've always particularly liked you, and I have no problem with you steadfastly sticking up for a kid in whom you see positive qualities that don't necessarily show themselves on the surface. This is a good game for you to point to; Thornton played gritty ball last night and added some value in the process. All we can ask, basically. And I really do like Thornton's attitude and temperament, he no question adds to the team dynamic with that. At risk of beating a dead horse, however, he's just far better utilized in a spot role where he won't be overexposed for his inability to score or put pressure on a defense, much less keep up physically over an extended period of time with much more talented and athletically gifted players. (My estimation) I'd love if Cook can get right in time to create that dynamic, since it seemed like we were headed in that direction, but I'm afraid my feeling is that it doesn't look likely. If Thornton is playing 29 minutes in tournament games for Duke, I think there's a definitive ceiling that wouldn't exist if that were not the case. But I can't fault his effort in the least.

Yet Another Devil Lawyer
01-26-2012, 04:16 PM
I was at the game last night. (BTW, I thought the crowd was less belligerent/obscene than in years past. The MD Admin had done a couple things to tone it down - moreso than Gary and Yow ever did.) Lots of Duke fans in blue attire and I didn't see any attacks. And none of the usual oscene chants from the crowd.


I was also at the game and agree that the crowd was less belligerent than it has been. They did get in a stadium-wide "BLEEP Duke" chant right before tip-off. The best/worst crowd moment, however, was during the ceremonial team handshake in support of the ACC's sportsmanship week (or something). The crowd boo'd. That's right -- they boo'd the sportsmanship handshake. Stay classy, Maryland.

Mason was the Bishop from Caddyshack last night.

wilko
01-26-2012, 04:19 PM
Mason was the Bishop from Caddyshack last night.

The dude that was having the game of his life in the rain misses the last lost and forsakes the Lord and turns to drink?
I hope for better for him than that for the rest of the year...

loldevilz
01-26-2012, 05:11 PM
I literally couldn't disagree more on a lot of this. I don't think the offense flows better with Thornton -- quite the opposite, in fact -- and I think you dramatically overstate his impact on defense. He's pesky, but I'd probably make that the extent of it. It's not like I've seen him destroying people this year like Chris Carrawell used to do to Steve Francis. (Also, I think it's a bit of a reach to give him credit for somehow causing an opponent to miss free throws.)

That said, I've always particularly liked you, and I have no problem with you steadfastly sticking up for a kid in whom you see positive qualities that don't necessarily show themselves on the surface. This is a good game for you to point to; Thornton played gritty ball last night and added some value in the process. All we can ask, basically. And I really do like Thornton's attitude and temperament, he no question adds to the team dynamic with that. At risk of beating a dead horse, however, he's just far better utilized in a spot role where he won't be overexposed for his inability to score or put pressure on a defense, much less keep up physically over an extended period of time with much more talented and athletically gifted players. (My estimation) I'd love if Cook can get right in time to create that dynamic, since it seemed like we were headed in that direction, but I'm afraid my feeling is that it doesn't look likely. If Thornton is playing 29 minutes in tournament games for Duke, I think there's a definitive ceiling that wouldn't exist if that were not the case. But I can't fault his effort in the least.

I agree. You have to stick with Curry simply because he is a good enough shooter that he could lead this team to a championship. There are really only a handful of shooters in the country that are his equal. I also disagree that Curry is rushing that shot simply because I think Coach K wants him to shoot whenever he is open. He should be able to make those shots. That being said he has definitely cooled off since his hot start. My personal opinion is that the position change really undermined Curry's confidence.

As for Thornton I'm still not sold. Everyone says he has all these intangibles but I just don't see it. Personally I find him very difficult to watch. He doesn't make the offense work. On defense he fouls at an absurd rate (which is why he gets steals) and he is not able to actually guard people. He just forces them one way or another. He's clearly Coach K's favorite player because there is simply no other reason why he should take time away from Curry and Cook.

UrinalCake
01-26-2012, 05:28 PM
I agree with Tommy regarding Mason's position - I thought he generally got the ball pretty far out of the box, usually on the left side, and held the ball for several seconds, then dribbled a few times, then made his move which usually resulted in a running hook. The exceptions were a couple of alley-oops and his beautiful up and under move. I thought the defense had PLENTY of time that they could have brought over a help defender if they wanted to double team. They simply chose not too. In fact, if I was to say anything at all critical of Mason's performance (and it wouldn't be a DBR message board if I didn't) it's that if he really wants to prepare himself for the next level, he should work on making his decision on what to do a little quicker instead of holding the ball that long. But again, hard to knock the guy at all for his performance.

Also, Bobby Knight kept decrying our three point shots, which makes sense when we weren't hitting and we were so effective going inside, but at the same time I thought they were mostly good shots. With the exception of Austin jacking up his mandatory 30 footer, most of our threes were open and in the flow of the offense. We just missed them. In retrospect sure we can say that we shouldn't have shot those, but during the game I'd have said to keep shooting them IF we're open.

kmspeaks
01-26-2012, 06:14 PM
I think Al Featherston did an extensive analysis of foul statistics during the J.J. Redick years. (Also...anyone remember J.J. having to get a new jersey after a few games because it was ripped-stretched from guys just grabbing and holding him?)

No one got more calls than Hansborough. That guy crawled up and over the back of a couple hundred ACC opponents in his four college years and got to shoot free throws for his trouble. Even Maryland fans would agree with us on that one.

Tyler Hansborough didn't crawl anywhere. He did however WALK all over the court :D

Scorp4me
01-26-2012, 06:30 PM
As for Thornton I'm still not sold. Everyone says he has all these intangibles but I just don't see it. Personally I find him very difficult to watch. He doesn't make the offense work. On defense he fouls at an absurd rate (which is why he gets steals) and he is not able to actually guard people. He just forces them one way or another. He's clearly Coach K's favorite player because there is simply no other reason why he should take time away from Curry and Cook.

Oh come on, at some point you have to quit calling what Thornton does luck. Somehow he is always in the right place, the player he is guarding always seems to have trouble, good things simply happen when he is around. Call it luck at first, but by now you call it a pattern. As for the fouls, part of that is the aggressive play. He's doing what he is being asked to do, which normally isn't 40 minutes a game but all out for half the game. I simply cannot understand the lack of respect Thornton gets on this board. Even when he does good it's always with the caveat that someone else probably could have done better. The kid deserves better and when I say I cannot understand the lack of respect, that's not an insult it's honest confusion.

ncexnyc
01-26-2012, 06:57 PM
Oh come on, at some point you have to quit calling what Thornton does luck. Somehow he is always in the right place, the player he is guarding always seems to have trouble, good things simply happen when he is around. Call it luck at first, but by now you call it a pattern. As for the fouls, part of that is the aggressive play. He's doing what he is being asked to do, which normally isn't 40 minutes a game but all out for half the game. I simply cannot understand the lack of respect Thornton gets on this board. Even when he does good it's always with the caveat that someone else probably could have done better. The kid deserves better and when I say I cannot understand the lack of respect, that's not an insult it's honest confusion.

It would appear you and I are the only members of the Tyler Thornton fan club. On second thought, let me add Coach K as he is obviously the President of that small club.
Yeah, it’s hard to understand the disrespect shown Tyler week after week, but for some strange reason K keeps trotting the kid out on the court. What is it that K sees, which the statmeisters fail to grasp?
Does he have a perfect stroke like Dre? No, but he is currently 12 of 21 from beyond the arc, which happens to lead the team. Is he a gifted playmaker like Quinn? Nope, but his 27 assists to only 16 turnovers is way better than the trio of Austin, Seth, and Dre that some people continue to tout as our Dream Backcourt.
Yes, our proverbial redheaded step-child keeps garnering the disdain of fans everywhere, but he keeps finding his way onto the court and I guess as long as Coach K believes in him then maybe we should just sit back with a big grin on our faces and let the doubters continue to look for reasons why TT should be on the bench.

Scorp4me
01-26-2012, 07:16 PM
It would appear you and I are the only members of the Tyler Thornton fan club. On second thought, let me add Coach K as he is obviously the President of that small club.
Yeah, it’s hard to understand the disrespect shown Tyler week after week, but for some strange reason K keeps trotting the kid out on the court. What is it that K sees, which the statmeisters fail to grasp?
Does he have a perfect stroke like Dre? No, but he is currently 12 of 21 from beyond the arc, which happens to lead the team. Is he a gifted playmaker like Quinn? Nope, but his 27 assists to only 16 turnovers is way better than the trio of Austin, Seth, and Dre that some people continue to tout as our Dream Backcourt.
Yes, our proverbial redheaded step-child keeps garnering the disdain of fans everywhere, but he keeps finding his way onto the court and I guess as long as Coach K believes in him then maybe we should just sit back with a big grin on our faces and let the doubters continue to look for reasons why TT should be on the bench.

I liked Tyler at first because he was a tough hard nosed kid. Good things just seemed to happen around him, sometimes inexplicably. But now I got no other explanation than it's him. And as you say his stats are very solid. He doesn't rack up points, assist, or highlights, but he keeps the negative to a minimum too. I mean I can see where Quin or Dre is a more exciting player I mean I really can, just don't see where Tyler's 20 mins a game takes away from that at all. Especially when he is so steady, yet so many seem to think a minute of Tyler on the floor means so much less of Duke's potential. Which I couldn't disagree with more.

Starter
01-26-2012, 08:05 PM
I don't see the point to specifically pick Thornton's game apart any further -- it's kind of like eating your own -- but my general stance is that if Thornton is playing heavy minutes for this team (anything over 15 mpg, IMO), it stunts our offense, weakens our defense and yes, caps our potential. I believe his limitations are clear as day, which I wouldn't expect to be subjective, but here we are. Regardless, I hope the scenario exists this year where he can settle into a role that best suits him and our team. As I've said, I love his attitude and such and believe he's a fine representative of the program.

Steven43
01-26-2012, 08:23 PM
It would appear you and I are the only members of the Tyler Thornton fan club. On second thought, let me add Coach K as he is obviously the President of that small club.
Yeah, it’s hard to understand the disrespect shown Tyler week after week, but for some strange reason K keeps trotting the kid out on the court. What is it that K sees, which the statmeisters fail to grasp?
Does he have a perfect stroke like Dre? No, but he is currently 12 of 21 from beyond the arc, which happens to lead the team. Is he a gifted playmaker like Quinn? Nope, but his 27 assists to only 16 turnovers is way better than the trio of Austin, Seth, and Dre that some people continue to tout as our Dream Backcourt.
Yes, our proverbial redheaded step-child keeps garnering the disdain of fans everywhere, but he keeps finding his way onto the court and I guess as long as Coach K believes in him then maybe we should just sit back with a big grin on our faces and let the doubters continue to look for reasons why TT should be on the bench.

The numbers I saw for Tyler are 13-29 from three-point range with 43 assists and 19 turnovers. Not sure if these numbers are correct, but that's what I found.

Anyway, I used to be really down on Tyler for several reasons. Namely, he doesn't create good looks at the basket for other players, which is the primary offensive responsibility of a point guard. He can't really create for himself and can usually only score when he is basically wide open. And he is not quick and can't stay in front of most point guards. However, I have begun to see value in his play outside of those shortcomings. He can hit an open shot. His free throw shooting is pretty good. He seems composed under pressure. He doesn't make a lot of turnovers. He plays hard at all times and seems to have a competitive and positive attitude. He is willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the team. And finally, he shows respect to his coaches, teammates, and opponents. While I do think Quinn is more talented and has a greater upside, that doesn't take away from Tyler's value. He is an important part of the team and I'm glad he's a Blue Devil.

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 08:52 PM
Does he have a perfect stroke like Dre? No, but he is currently 12 of 21 from beyond the arc, which happens to lead the team. Is he a gifted playmaker like Quinn? Nope, but his 27 assists to only 16 turnovers is way better than the trio of Austin, Seth, and Dre that some people continue to tout as our Dream Backcourt.


The numbers I saw for Tyler are 13-29 from three-point range with 43 assists and 19 turnovers. Not sure if these numbers are correct, but that's what I found.

Not to take anything away from Tyler, but Steven43's numbers are correct. ncexync appears to be using the GoDuke stats, which haven't been updated in four games. Tyler is 1 for his last 8 three point attempts. His recent 16 to 3 a/to ratio is pretty impressive, though 8 of the assists came in one game and were mostly throwing the ball to Andre and watching him bury a three.

ncexnyc
01-26-2012, 09:37 PM
Not to take anything away from Tyler, but Steven43's numbers are correct. ncexync appears to be using the GoDuke stats, which haven't been updated in four games. Tyler is 1 for his last 8 three point attempts. His recent 16 to 3 a/to ratio is pretty impressive, though 8 of the assists came in one game and were mostly throwing the ball to Andre and watching him bury a three.
See that's exactly one of the intangibles we're talking about when we discuss Tyler. At least he had the good sense to feed the hot hand.:D

Kedsy
01-26-2012, 10:44 PM
See that's exactly one of the intangibles we're talking about when we discuss Tyler. At least he had the good sense to feed the hot hand.:D

Can't argue with that. He's a smart kid.

Scorp4me
01-27-2012, 06:22 PM
I don't see the point to specifically pick Thornton's game apart any further -- it's kind of like eating your own -- but my general stance is that if Thornton is playing heavy minutes for this team (anything over 15 mpg, IMO), it stunts our offense, weakens our defense and yes, caps our potential. I believe his limitations are clear as day, which I wouldn't expect to be subjective, but here we are. Regardless, I hope the scenario exists this year where he can settle into a role that best suits him and our team. As I've said, I love his attitude and such and believe he's a fine representative of the program.

I'm curious if the "Behind The Numbers" article linked on the front page change your view. You wanted an objective measure and that seems pretty clear as day to me. I think Thornton's biggest problem is perception. So articles like that are very beneficial I think.

Kedsy
01-27-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm curious if the "Behind The Numbers" article linked on the front page change your view. You wanted an objective measure and that seems pretty clear as day to me. I think Thornton's biggest problem is perception. So articles like that are very beneficial I think.

Well, it's a start. Small sample size and unadjusted, this is really only a fancy plus/minus. And don't get people around here started on how meaningless plus/minus is in a small sample size.

In this case, for example, Tyler Thornton was on the floor during Andre Dawkins explosion against Wake and not on the floor so much during our defensive collapse against FSU. You can argue cause and effect, but not particularly persuasively for either side.

Not only that, but just looking at them, the results seems sort of random. For example:

Curry-Rivers-Dawkins-Kelly-MaPlumlee: -22.7
Curry-Rivers-Dawkins-Kelly-MiPlumlee: +48.6

Yes, Miles is a better defensive player than Mason, but Mason has been playing much better offense than Miles and also rebounding better. Does anybody really think a lineup with Miles in it would beat the same lineup except with Mason in it by 50 points (that's the 70 difference adjusted down to a 70 possession game)?

So I don't think it's clear as day, nor do I believe we can draw any objective conclusions from the article.

ChrisP
01-27-2012, 06:46 PM
I'm curious if the "Behind The Numbers" article linked on the front page change your view. You wanted an objective measure and that seems pretty clear as day to me. I think Thornton's biggest problem is perception. So articles like that are very beneficial I think.

Agreed. I love TT - intangibles and all. I guess I like him mainly for so many of the reasons other posters seem to hate on him - he's not flashy, not cocky, not a great shooter, not a great passer, not a great defender but the bottom line is that he's a winner. He gets the job done. Period.

One other thing - he tends to hit his FT's at crunch time when the game's on the line. I don't honestly know his FT% offhand, but I am pretty sure it's not all that impressive, overall, and so when he makes them at the end of tight games, it's all the more impressive to me. I really like Thornton's passion and his energy. So, add me to the TT fan club, I guess and there'll be at least three of us :cool:

Scorp4me
01-27-2012, 06:51 PM
Well, it's a start. Small sample size and unadjusted, this is really only a fancy plus/minus. And don't get people around here started on how meaningless plus/minus is in a small sample size.

In this case, for example, Tyler Thornton was on the floor during Andre Dawkins explosion against Wake and not on the floor so much during our defensive collapse against FSU. You can argue cause and effect, but not particularly persuasively for either side.

Not only that, but just looking at them, the results seems sort of random. For example:

Curry-Rivers-Dawkins-Kelly-MaPlumlee: -22.7
Curry-Rivers-Dawkins-Kelly-MiPlumlee: +48.6

Yes, Miles is a better defensive player than Mason, but does anybody really think a lineup with Miles in it would beat a lineup with Mason in it by 50 points (that's the 70 difference adjusted down to a 70 possession game)?

So I don't think we can draw any objective or clear conclusions from the article.

Alright I'll agree it's not definitive, but it's better than a simple subjective appraisal...which I think is mainly what Thornton gets. And numbers are not always deceiving, I'm sure you know that. The numbers you put out are very informative. If the numbers said, let's say we're much better when Rivers is playing Center I'd agree with you more. But the numbers seem to support Coach K's appraisal of him.

I know the biggest problem with Thornton is perception (in Starters defense I'll even agree with that), even when he is doing good it isn't flashy or anything. And yet he seems to get negative attributed more often than not (for example in another thread I believe 3 turnovers are attributed to him when he committed none). I guess I just don't understand why even articles like this are explained away instead of simply support Tyler's good play.

devildeac
01-27-2012, 07:00 PM
Agreed. I love TT - intangibles and all. I guess I like him mainly for so many of the reasons other posters seem to hate on him - he's not flashy, not cocky, not a great shooter, not a great passer, not a great defender but the bottom line is that he's a winner. He gets the job done. Period.

One other thing - he tends to hit his FT's at crunch time when the game's on the line. I don't honestly know his FT% offhand, but I am pretty sure it's not all that impressive, overall, and so when he makes them at the end of tight games, it's all the more impressive to me. I really like Thornton's passion and his energy. So, add me to the TT fan club, I guess and there'll be at least three of us :cool:

After his Plumlee-esqe 5/5 showing at Cole, he is now 19/27 on the year for a 70.4% FT accuracy.

Kedsy
01-27-2012, 07:05 PM
Alright I'll agree it's not definitive, but it's better than a simple subjective appraisal...which I think is mainly what Thornton gets. And numbers are not always deceiving, I'm sure you know that. The numbers you put out are very informative. If the numbers said, let's say we're much better when Rivers is playing Center I'd agree with you more. But the numbers seem to support Coach K's appraisal of him.

I know the biggest problem with Thornton is perception (in Starters defense I'll even agree with that), even when he is doing good it isn't flashy or anything. And yet he seems to get negative attributed more often than not (for example in another thread I believe 3 turnovers are attributed to him when he committed none). I guess I just don't understand why even articles like this are explained away instead of simply support Tyler's good play.

Yes, I suppose it's better than a subjective appraisal. On the other hand, it's just looking at 6 games over the course of a 20 game season. I understand these are the most recent games and also the league games, but it does seem a bit like cherry picking. My recollection from Troublemaker's plus/minus figures (through I think the first 15 games) is Tyler did all right, but his numbers weren't nearly as rosy as in the article.

In addition, I wonder if part of the difference has to do with how Coach K deploys his lineups. If, for example, he uses lineup A in the most difficult situations (e.g., crunch time against FSU) and lineup B in easier situations (e.g., while we're rolling against Wake Forest), it would follow that lineup B might have much better numbers than lineup A, but it wouldn't necessarily mean lineup B is better than lineup A.

throatybeard
01-27-2012, 09:33 PM
It's always fun to visit opposing message boards after a win, just to lick their tears (a la Cartman and Scott Tenorman).

Indeed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7mdTrYgeCc&feature=related

Starter
01-27-2012, 11:31 PM
Alright I'll agree it's not definitive, but it's better than a simple subjective appraisal...which I think is mainly what Thornton gets. And numbers are not always deceiving, I'm sure you know that. The numbers you put out are very informative. If the numbers said, let's say we're much better when Rivers is playing Center I'd agree with you more. But the numbers seem to support Coach K's appraisal of him.

I know the biggest problem with Thornton is perception (in Starters defense I'll even agree with that), even when he is doing good it isn't flashy or anything. And yet he seems to get negative attributed more often than not (for example in another thread I believe 3 turnovers are attributed to him when he committed none). I guess I just don't understand why even articles like this are explained away instead of simply support Tyler's good play.

Thanks for the defense, but I'd say more than perception, I'll reiterate that my issue with Thornton is that he can't score, doesn't set people up and I'm not crazy about his defense. I can't deny the efficiency numbers in terms of playing with Thornton vs. playing without any semblance of an actual point guard, though I'd contend it's a pretty small sample size. As Kedsy pointed out, he was on the court for Dawkins' majestic game. I think I could have put up some pretty strong efficiency numbers at point guard in that scenario. The small sample size, by the way, is especially true for Cook, who was presumably only healthy for three of the six games, two of which he scored 10 points apiece. He limped through (somewhat inexplicably) 14 minutes against Wake Forest after injuring his knee and hasn't really been seen since.

I hate to have to do this, but what it boils down for to me is that Thornton in no way resembles a championship-level point guard. I feel Cook has an excellent chance to grow into that; I look forward to finding out. With some health, I really thought he could have been our answer to last year's Kendall Marshall-esque freshman infusion of talent and energy. But I see little upside in Thornton, and I'd be surprised if he played very much next year with Sulaimon added, especially if Cook gets totally healthy and continues to blossom and Rivers returns, which he very well could.

By the way, again, it was me that erroneously said Thornton had four turnovers against Maryland. I simply mistyped, it was four fouls.

Papa John
01-28-2012, 08:11 AM
Alright I'll agree it's not definitive, but it's better than a simple subjective appraisal...which I think is mainly what Thornton gets. And numbers are not always deceiving, I'm sure you know that. The numbers you put out are very informative. If the numbers said, let's say we're much better when Rivers is playing Center I'd agree with you more. But the numbers seem to support Coach K's appraisal of him.

I know the biggest problem with Thornton is perception (in Starters defense I'll even agree with that), even when he is doing good it isn't flashy or anything. And yet he seems to get negative attributed more often than not (for example in another thread I believe 3 turnovers are attributed to him when he committed none). I guess I just don't understand why even articles like this are explained away instead of simply support Tyler's good play.

Or why people who are suggesting that an article presenting recent data that supports the idea that TT is having a positive impact is "cherry-picking" data might also brush off a positive statistic about Tyler in the same breath that they are presenting a negative one, in this manner?...


Tyler is 1 for his last 8 three point attempts. His recent 16 to 3 a/to ratio is pretty impressive, though 8 of the assists came in one game and were mostly throwing the ball to Andre and watching him bury a three.

Yeah... I'm kinda stumped, too...

Kedsy
01-28-2012, 08:18 AM
But the numbers seem to support Coach K's appraisal of him.

I've been thinking about this, and here's why I don't believe the numbers support Coach K's appraisal of anything: those same numbers "support" the idea that the lineup Coach K uses most often is one of his worst lineups. In fact, of the six lineups listed in the article, three of his four most common lineups are the three worst. Also, according to the article, the frontcourt Coach K has started the past three games is our least effective frontcourt. The frontcourt he started before that is our second least effective frontcourt. Our most effective frontcourt I don't think has started a game all season.

So the numbers support Coach K's decision making in some areas and reject his decision making in others. Which to me means they don't say much of anything.

Kedsy
01-28-2012, 08:21 AM
Yeah... I'm kinda stumped, too...

Well, if you're going to ridicule someone for something like this, you ought to at least use the whole quote. I was responding to someone who was using five game old data and the numbers that stumped you were Tyler's performance in the games the earlier poster missed.

ncexnyc
01-28-2012, 03:20 PM
So I finally got around to watching the game this morning after work. I’m not surprised to see that the in game comments had little to do with what I witnessed. Unfortunately, working at night leaves me with only the box score and the in game thread, but I’ve adjusted my expectations and have come to realize there are some extremely shrill voices out there who would be better served taking a valium or two prior to watching the game.
I’m extremely proud of the way the team took a haymaker to the chin and pulled themselves up off the canvass. Maryland was fired up and they came to play. It would have been very easy for us to fold up like a cheap suit once we got down 18-10.
I was also very impressed with the effort from our frontcourt, they clearly won the game for us as our backcourts was nearly invisible, except for Austin who had a solid second half.
Will the D ever improve? I’m really wondering if it will. We see the same things game in and game out. It’s nice to keep saying it will finally click for some of the players, but at some point in time we need to realize, what you see is what you get. As I asked on another thread is it time for Coach K to realize this and start investing more time into the offensive end of things as this seems to be this team’s strong suit. I’m also disturbed by the glaring lack of consistency we see from several of the players . Based on what’s transpired so far this season, I’d say Mason has been our most consistent player game in and game out.
This is a talented team, but unless they can get consistent results night after night from everyone, I’d say our chances of going deep in the tourney aren’t that good.