ACC Lax Expansion: The Time Is Now!

[burnspbesq]

Was interesting to look at IL's pre-season MCLA (non-NCAA college lacrosse) poll and see four ACC schools in the top 25, led by BC at number five. Every ACC school that doesn't play NCAA D1 men's lax has a thriving MCLA program.

Michigan and Marquette have proven that it's possible to add D1 men's lax without falling out of compliance with Title IX. The we-can't-afford-it excuse is invalidated by the new ESPN deal.

It's time for (at a minimum) BC, Clemson, and Georgia Tech to make the move. What are y'all waiting for?

[MCFinARL]

This would be great to see. With Syracuse coming into the ACC, even one of these teams adding lax would give the ACC enough for an "official" tournament with a guaranteed NCAA tournament spot (though, of course,the ACC teams have been so strong they have all regularly snapped up at large spots even without the tournament.

[Native]

Long overdue, IMO. With the addition of Syracuse, 9 of the last twelve championships have been won by an ACC school. We have the best conference bar none in college lacrosse. Expansion would be awesome, and with football/soccer stadiums already in place the infrastructure is already there.

I could see Virginia Tech, Boston College, and Florida State fielding really good teams for a variety of reasons. A lot of lacrosse recruits would love to go play down in Florida and a Virginia Tech/Virginia rivalry in lacrosse could be really great. Boston is in New England and with the right resources could make a recruiting coup of the top talent from up North.

[johnb]

Is there a culture for lacrosse at Clemson, Florida State, and Virginia Tech? While lacrosse has spread a bit outside of Long Island and DC/Baltimore, it's still--imho--a sport for east coast prep school jocks.

It seems as likely as thinking that Big East honchos can create college football fanaticism in the northeast corridor by reshuffling their schedule and signing on some B List teams from football country. Storrs simply can't be Tuscaloosa anytime in the foreseeable future, and I don't think good lacrosse players from Landon and Long Island parochial schools are going to be eager to go to Clemson. And if they did, the new teams would get STOMPED by the existing teams and would be performing in front of tiny crowds.

Now BC is a different matter. While perhaps on the geographic fringe of interest in lacrosse, it could presumably field a competitive team within a few years, and the tournament would be a nice touch.

[MCFinARL]

Is there a culture for lacrosse at Clemson, Florida State, and Virginia Tech? While lacrosse has spread a bit outside of Long Island and DC/Baltimore, it's still--imho--a sport for east coast prep school jocks.

It seems as likely as thinking that Big East honchos can create college football fanaticism in the northeast corridor by reshuffling their schedule and signing on some B List teams from football country. Storrs simply can't be Tuscaloosa anytime in the foreseeable future, and I don't think good lacrosse players from Landon and Long Island parochial schools are going to be eager to go to Clemson. And if they did, the new teams would get STOMPED by the existing teams and would be performing in front of tiny crowds.

Now BC is a different matter. While perhaps on the geographic fringe of interest in lacrosse, it could presumably field a competitive team within a few years, and the tournament would be a nice touch.

Can't speak to Clemson or Florida State, but club and high school lacrosse are growing fast in Virginia and could provide a solid starting point for a program at Tech, especially because in-state public tuition would help to make up for the fact that scholarships in lax are very limited. It would be a while before they would compete seriously with Virginia or the more established lacrosse schools for players, but I think they would have a base for a start.

Also, it's amazing what schools can do if they make a commitment. The University of Florida women's program is an example--when they decided to start a program, they hired a top flight coach and went all out in recruiting, drawing lots of HS stars from Md. and NY. In their second season (last year), they lost only 4 games all year, including their NCAA quarterfinal loss to Duke. In some ways, the women's game may not be as developed as the men's, but since there are more women's teams out there, the competition for players is presumably a little tougher. At least in theory, a men's team at a place like Clemson or Florida State could do something similar.

As for playing in front of small crowds, even the good lacrosse teams often do that (except, maybe, Syracuse--and Hopkins, for which lacrosse is their biggest sport).

But obviously, starting a team is a risk and everyone needs to be prepared to endure a couple of lean years if they do.

[burnspbesq]

<<<While lacrosse has spread a bit outside of Long Island and DC/Baltimore, it's still--imho--a sport for east coast prep school jocks. >>>

Your opinion is based on facts that are way, way out of date.

Take a drive around the suburbs of Philly, or San Diego, or Denver, or Atlanta or Chicago on a weekday afternoon in the spring. Lacrosse is THE game at the high school level. Better and better athletes are getting involved. Check out, for example, Roy Lang of Cornell, a certain first-team A-A this year who hails from St. Ignatius Prep in San Francisco. Chase Carraro, one of the best players on Denver's Final Four team of last year, is from Louisville.

This year's Duke roster includes players from twelve states. And that's not an outlier. Look at any major D-1 roster (even Hopkins) and you'll see something similar.

It's the fastest growing game in America, bar none. There are enough guys who can play at the D-1 level to stock over 100 D-1 programs.

Michigan, which hasn't played a game yet, has a top-20 recruiting class coming in next fall, and may have a top-10 recruiting class for 2013. Kids want to play, and they'll go where they can play.

BC, GaTech, and Clemson won't have problems getting players, and they won't have problems with scheduling. BC can fill out a non-conference schedule without ever spending more than 90 minutes on the bus. Every cold-weather school will be willing to play at Clemson or GaTech early in the season, for the same reason they've always been willing to play at Duke or Carolina early in the season.

[burnspbesq]

Circle April 14 on your calendar. Michigan - Ohio State at the Big House. That could be a real eye-opener for the skeptics.

[Duvall]

Was interesting to look at IL's pre-season MCLA (non-NCAA college lacrosse) poll and see four ACC schools in the top 25, led by BC at number five. Every ACC school that doesn't play NCAA D1 men's lax has a thriving MCLA program.

Michigan and Marquette have proven that it's possible to add D1 men's lax without falling out of compliance with Title IX. The we-can't-afford-it excuse is invalidated by the new ESPN deal.

It's time for (at a minimum) BC, Clemson, and Georgia Tech to make the move. What are y'all waiting for?

Are they waiting to break even on everything else? Are any ACC athletic departments close to being on stable enough financial footing to add sports instead of dropping them? I don't know about Marquette's situation, but Michigan has the advantage of being flush with cash from the Bigs House and Ten.

[burns15]

<<<While lacrosse has spread a bit outside of Long Island and DC/Baltimore, it's still--imho--a sport for east coast prep school jocks. >>>

Your opinion is based on facts that are way, way out of date.

Take a drive around the suburbs of Philly, or San Diego, or Denver, or Atlanta or Chicago on a weekday afternoon in the spring. Lacrosse is THE game at the high school level. Better and better athletes are getting involved. Check out, for example, Roy Lang of Cornell, a certain first-team A-A this year who hails from St. Ignatius Prep in San Francisco. Chase Carraro, one of the best players on Denver's Final Four team of last year, is from Louisville.

This year's Duke roster includes players from twelve states. And that's not an outlier. Look at any major D-1 roster (even Hopkins) and you'll see something similar.

It's the fastest growing game in America, bar none. There are enough guys who can play at the D-1 level to stock over 100 D-1 programs.

Michigan, which hasn't played a game yet, has a top-20 recruiting class coming in next fall, and may have a top-10 recruiting class for 2013. Kids want to play, and they'll go where they can play.

BC, GaTech, and Clemson won't have problems getting players, and they won't have problems with scheduling. BC can fill out a non-conference schedule without ever spending more than 90 minutes on the bus. Every cold-weather school will be willing to play at Clemson or GaTech early in the season, for the same reason they've always been willing to play at Duke or Carolina early in the season.


I'm sorry but that's completely false. Baseball is still king in San Diego and Atlanta, and always will be. Furthermore, coming from a school that is a perennial national powerhouse in high school lacrosse...the difference in level of play between the Long Island and DC/Baltimore areas and the rest of the country is vast...not even close

[ForkFondler]

How about adding Hopkins as a Lax only school? I figure if the NCAA can give them an exception, so can the ACC.

[ForkFondler]

I'm sorry but that's completely false. Baseball is still king in San Diego and Atlanta, and always will be. Furthermore, coming from a school that is a perennial national powerhouse in high school lacrosse...the difference in level of play between the Long Island and DC/Baltimore areas and the rest of the country is vast...not even close

The biggest growth area, both in terms of volume and quality of play, is the midwest. Not only are there a few new D1 programs, there are lots of new DIII and HS programs. The teams aren't as good, but there are lots of good players, and lots of fans. So, I wouldn't group San Diego and Atlanta in with Ohio and Michigan.

Also, the difference in level of play between the Long Island and DC/Baltimore areas and the rest of the country is not as vast as it used to be. Ditto for the difference in the level of play between private and public schools.

Also, the Australians are getting to be pretty tough.

[MCFinARL]

I'm sorry but that's completely false. Baseball is still king in San Diego and Atlanta, and always will be. Furthermore, coming from a school that is a perennial national powerhouse in high school lacrosse...the difference in level of play between the Long Island and DC/Baltimore areas and the rest of the country is vast...not even close

It's one thing to argue that the difference in level of play on a team basis between these areas and the rest of the country is vast--but another to say that there aren't lots of good athletes playing lacrosse and lots of good individual players developing elsewhere in the country. Burnspbesq's point about the rosters of good D1 college teams is correct--more and more players are coming from other places, and some of them are very, very good. Duke, for example, has several key returning players this year from the Philadelphia area (Wigrizer and Connors, among others), as well as Costabile from Connecticut, Lawson from Massachusetts, and Hipps from Texas. Change may not be happening overnight, but it is happening.

Interestingly, Duke just picked up an interesting commit from the class of 2014 (sophomore verbals are surprisingly common in lacrosse), according to insidelacrosse.com--Jake Seau, a highly ranked midfielder from California--and the son of Junior Seau.

[Verga3]

How about adding Hopkins as a Lax only school? I figure if the NCAA can give them an exception, so can the ACC.

Hopkins is DIII in everything but Lax. Interesting...not happening, but like your thinking.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Interestingly, Duke just picked up an interesting commit from the class of 2014 (sophomore verbals are surprisingly common in lacrosse), according to insidelacrosse.com--Jake Seau, a highly ranked midfielder from California--and the son of Junior Seau.
Maybe he can play football, too!

[MCFinARL]

Maybe he can play football, too!

It's a thought. But maybe he prefers not to compete against Dad's legacy head to head (that worked out okay for Grant Hill, as I recall....).

[ForkFondler]

Here's my other idea that won't happen:

1. Let Notre Dame in for everything but football.
2. Give the ND FB spot to Navy, and while we're at it, take them for lacrosse too.

[hughgs]

Here's my other idea that won't happen:

1. Let Notre Dame in for everything but football.
2. Give the ND FB spot to Navy, and while we're at it, take them for lacrosse too.

Navy is set to join the Big East:

http://articles.courant.com/2012-01-24/sports/hc-navy-big-east-0125-20120124_1_john-marinatto-navy-athletic-director-football-independence

[Duvall]

Navy is set to join the Big East:

http://articles.courant.com/2012-01-24/sports/hc-navy-big-east-0125-20120124_1_john-marinatto-navy-athletic-director-football-independence

If there's one thing that the ACC has continued to do well in recent years, it's liberating schools from the Big East.

Another plan:

1. Invite Notre Dame for all sports;
2. Invite Navy for football; and
3. Invite Georgetown for everything except football.

[hughgs]

If there's one thing that the ACC has continued to do well in recent years, it's liberating schools from the Big East.

Another plan:

1. Invite Notre Dame for all sports;
2. Invite Navy for football; and
3. Invite Georgetown for everything except football.

I suspect that the people that run the ACC don't think of Navy in the same terms as the teams that were "liberated".

[CrazyNotCrazie]

A few thoughts:
- I am fairly sure that BC used to have varsity men's lax - I recall Duke playing them in the 90s
- I'm guessing the reason BC no longer has a team is the same reason why it will be hard for other schools to add men's teams - Title 9. In this day and age when schools are cutting men's sports to get in balance with this rule, it is very hard to add a men's varsity sport. I will save my editorial comments on the merits of Title 9 for another thread.
- The sport is definitely growing rapidly throughout the country. Duke has had a lot of success with kids from the edges of the usual hot beds - we've had lots of great players from NJ (Crotty), Mass. (Quinzani), Philly, and I believe Coach Pressler was from Connecticut, and though there wasn't the depth of talent there that there is in Baltimore and on Long Island, there were still plenty of top tier players, and he got more than his share.
- Great news about Jake Seau. Between him and Jake Tripucka, we will have cornered the market on "lacrosse players named Jake who are the children of former pro athletes"

[WSW77]

Feel like I need to chime in on this:

1. The vast difference in Northeast lacrosse and the rest of the US is not that vast anymore. I played here in Durham in high school 16 years ago and it was decently popular then. Now there are huge feeder systems here starting at age 5. My son is 9 and has been playing in leagues here since he was 6. And the coaches are past college players, college coaches, and Duke & Carolina are VERY involved.

2. NC State used to have a Div 1 program years ago so that's another that could start back up. The play in the MCLA right now.

3. I am totally pumped that lacrosse season is starting!

Go Devils!

[ricks68]

I'm sorry but that's completely false. Baseball is still king in San Diego and Atlanta, and always will be. Furthermore, coming from a school that is a perennial national powerhouse in high school lacrosse...the difference in level of play between the Long Island and DC/Baltimore areas and the rest of the country is vast...not even close

Sorry, but I respectfully beg to differ. I have watched my nephew give up baseball for lacrosse in Atlanta. He was a great high school baseball prospect, excelling at pitching and catching, and on almost all of the different league wish list rosters in his part of town (Alpharetta). He fell in love with lacrosse, however, and gave up baseball for it. I attended a number of both his baseball and lacrosse games when visitng Atlanta the past few years. He was a really, really good young baseball player, but would rather try to work his way into the starting lineup playing lacrosse than be a starter in baseball. In talking with the players and parents, they are in agreement that lacrosse is the hottest sport around in the Atlanta suburbs.

As far as the level of play, I have absolutely no experience in that realm. My money would be on your opinion, however, in that regards----but I could be wrong. But what about Denver? Where did their players come from? From just looking at their roster now, I see a lot of kids from California and Colorado. I certainly expected NE kids, but California and Colorado for a Lax FF team? While I would still bet on your knowlege in that area, I think that opinion may well be somewhat questionable in the future. (Remember, the future extends to like a very long time, right? ;))

ricks

[53n206]

Dallas (other places in Tx), Denver, So. Ca., Atlanta. It growa.

[MCFinARL]

A few thoughts:
--Title 9. In this day and age when schools are cutting men's sports to get in balance with this rule, it is very hard to add a men's varsity sport. I will save my editorial comments on the merits of Title 9 for another thread.
I'll try to respect your choice not to open the whole title 9 debate here. But I feel the need to say just a little. First, yes, Title 9 is often a reason universities don't add new men's sports. But this is a choice, not a necessity. If the NCAA and its football coaches didn't feel the need to allow 85 full scholarships (plus additional "counters") for that sport, it wouldn't be so difficult to achieve balance with women's sports. Alternatively, Title 9 might be restructured, legislatively or through implementing regulations, so as not to fully count football in measuring compliance. But in principle, at least, Title 9 is a good thing, and it's done a great deal for women's sports and for athletically talented women who would like to attend college.

- Great news about Jake Seau. Between him and Jake Tripucka, we will have cornered the market on "lacrosse players named Jake who are the children of former pro athletes"
;) yes, it's a highly selective category, and a valuable one!