PDA

View Full Version : Joe Paterno (1926-2012)



sagegrouse
01-21-2012, 06:42 PM
So much so, that there are unconfirmed reports that the extended family has been summoned to his bedside to say good-bye and that a respirator has been disconnected. No comment from family -- here's the link (http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/01/21/reports-paterno-gravely-ill-family-summoned-to-state-college/related/).

I wish the best for Joe and his family.

sagegrouse

#1Duke
01-21-2012, 06:52 PM
Yes, I saw that too and it's very sad.
What has been done to and said about that man in his last days is a crime and a terrible injustice.

My heart goes out to his family and friends. I will always remember Joe Paterno as the excellent football coach that he was and not the elderly sick man who had the world dumped on his shoulders, his legacy ripped from him, and his death brought on faster than it should have by the idiots that blamed the FOOTBALL COACH for all the problems.

I guess that sometimes excellence and success can bring out the worst people... bring out the jealousy and hatred enough to tar and feather the wrong man.

Godspeed Joe...... there's a better world waiting for you.

CameronDuke
01-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Such a heartbreaking ending to college football's best coach of all time. I have so much respect for Mr. Paterno even after the scandal that ultimately ended his career at Penn State. You have to wonder if the stress and agony brought on my the entire situation added any duress to his condition.

Regardless of your opinion on the situation at Penn State, I hope everyone can show Mr. Paterno the respect he earned during these last few days. I think the amount of good influence he had on this world and the lives of so many young men far outweighs the decisions he made that were uncovered and led to his firing.

Godspeed, Mr. Paterno. When the Lord finally calls you home, this world will have lost a legend and decent man.

Bob Green
01-21-2012, 07:40 PM
This is a sad day for America. Coach Paterno is an Icon.

MCFinARL
01-21-2012, 08:23 PM
This is unspeakably sad. When we saw the crawl on ESPN my spouse said, "dying of a broken heart." Probably right--hard to fight cancer when you don't have a fierce desire to keep going.

I understand why the BOT at Penn State felt they had to do what they did--but I also understand how easy it must have been for JoePa to conclude that he wasn't equipped to handle this situation and bump it to the AD. I grew up cheering for Penn State (my dad was a grad) and it's been hard all along--but this part is the saddest.

SMO
01-21-2012, 08:24 PM
This is a sad day for America. Coach Paterno is an Icon.

I wonder if the past few months have given folks time to reflect or if the sports media will dance on his grave.

DukeGirl4ever
01-21-2012, 09:01 PM
Report is he has now passed away:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/21/joe-paterno-dead-ex-penn-state-football-coach_n_1221289.html

SMO
01-21-2012, 09:11 PM
What will the people that said his cancer was a ploy to gain sympathy say now? How sad.

DukeGirl4ever
01-21-2012, 09:36 PM
Looks like that article was premature. Jay Paterno is tweeting that his Dad is still alive....

Social media has turned in to a nightmare in this day and age.

hurleyfor3
01-21-2012, 09:37 PM
Social media has turned in to a nightmare in this day and age.

Not if you stay the hell off it.

DukeGirl4ever
01-21-2012, 11:53 PM
Hurley, I've gotta laugh at the irony here....you are a moderator for an online basketball forum. :)

In any event, most of us now have iPhones that give us notifications on important news....who would have thought a paper would post that prematurely.

As of now, several sites are reporting that he has passed, while others are saying he's still alive.
As others have mentioned, media in general (specifically ESPN) has made this whole fiasco unbearable. I can't even watch anything about Sandusky because my mind has had it. Everywhere you turned when this came to light, that's what you saw.

I can't help but wonder how things would have turned out for Joe if this had happened 20 years ago. ESPN and sports media did not have the dominance they have now.....I think Joe would still have a job if this all came to light years ago.

Anyway, I have mixed thoughts on this...I think Joe could have done more about this situation, but I am also saddened to know this is how the man lived out his last few days and months. He had to have been an emotional mess. When he was fired, I said to my husband, "This is the type of instance where you see someone pass away in a month or two." I have seen many instances where people spend their whole life at their job, retire, and then pass away. Such a sad, sad story all around.

My heart goes out to the Paterno family.

hurleyfor3
01-22-2012, 12:09 AM
Hurley, I've gotta laugh at the irony here....you are a moderator for an online basketball forum.

Fair enough; I grew up before the era when every thought and action needed to be broadcasted to the world and where you can become someone's "friend" just by asking.

Espn is usually not first on non-game-related breaking news items such as this. They generally want to make sure they have the story 100% right. I give them credit for this.

DukeGirl4ever
01-22-2012, 12:14 AM
Fair enough; I grew up before the era when every thought and action needed to be broadcasted to the world and where you can become someone's "friend" just by asking.

Espn is usually not first on non-game-related breaking news items such as this. They generally want to make sure they have the story 100% right. I give them credit for this.

:D Whew, glad you can see the humor! We've all had a rough night.

I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm in my 30's so I've kind of grown up with the technological advances. I will be the first to admit that I've become too dependent on it.


I agree about ESPN. Even as I was reading about his supposed death online, they were still reporting that he was in serious condition.

davekay1971
01-22-2012, 10:22 AM
I just saw on morning news that Joe Paterno has passed.

May he rest in peace, and prayers and thoughts for his family.

Note: this appears to be real news, not related to the erroneous reports recently broadcast.

Bob Green
01-22-2012, 10:27 AM
Coach Paterno's passing is being reported as Breaking News on CNN and ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7489238/joe-paterno-ex-penn-state-nittany-lions-coach-dies-85-2-month-cancer-fight?eleven=twelve

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/22/us/pennsylvania-obit-paterno/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

A sad, sad day for America. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Paterno family.

roywhite
01-22-2012, 10:37 AM
As a long-time Penn State fan (my brother, father, uncle, and grandfather are graduates) and Joe Paterno fan, this is sad news indeed. He was a true legend.

I'm very sorry that the events of the Sandusky scandal have tarnished his reputation. He did so much for the University and the state of Pennsylvania.

One of my favorite memories concerning Joe is a recent one---the meeting and joint appearance that he had with Coach K as presented this summer on ESPN. Always felt they were two of a kind, and I'm not sure a Duke fan can think of a higher compliment.

mph
01-22-2012, 10:40 AM
Rest in peace JoePa. A heartbreaking end to a heartbreaking tragedy.

g-money
01-22-2012, 12:48 PM
Was Joe killed by cancer or by a media witch hunt? I think it's the latter as much as the former, but somehow I doubt there will be any soul searching by the talking heads who were so eager to judge. RIP Coach Paterno.

HS Dukie
01-22-2012, 02:19 PM
They just interviewed Coach K about Coach Paterno's passing away. As a Penn State and Duke alum, I couldn't be more proud of what Coach K said. He was heartfelt, honest, and not afraid to express his opinion that Coach Paterno was vilified by the media and the PSU Board of Trustees. Rest in peace, Coach. And God Bless you, Coach Krzyzewski!

DukieInKansas
01-22-2012, 04:02 PM
I always admired JoePa. The Sandusky affair didn't change that - it just proved to me that he was human. No one knows how they would have handled that situation. You can only make the best decision you can at the time. As days and years pass, may all the good he did stand out more clearly in everyone's mind.

My condolences to his family, his friends, and the many legions of people who loved JoePa.

mph
01-22-2012, 04:10 PM
They just interviewed Coach K about Coach Paterno's passing away. As a Penn State and Duke alum, I couldn't be more proud of what Coach K said. He was heartfelt, honest, and not afraid to express his opinion that Coach Paterno was vilified by the media and the PSU Board of Trustees. Rest in peace, Coach. And God Bless you, Coach Krzyzewski!

Here's the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGEWI4EooeE). Great interview.

moonpie23
01-22-2012, 04:25 PM
I always admired JoePa. The Sandusky affair didn't change that - it just proved to me that he was human. No one knows how they would have handled that situation. .

i didn't "know" the man, all i "knew" was what was on my TV screen, however i DO KNOW what I would have done in the situation that has been detailed in the reports, so please don't lump me in with "no one knows"......

If indeed what was reported to him provoked no further action, then my perception of what i saw on the Tv screen has changed drastically.

it's a sad situation all around...

sporthenry
01-22-2012, 04:57 PM
I always admired JoePa. The Sandusky affair didn't change that - it just proved to me that he was human. No one knows how they would have handled that situation. You can only make the best decision you can at the time. As days and years pass, may all the good he did stand out more clearly in everyone's mind.

My condolences to his family, his friends, and the many legions of people who loved JoePa.

I would agree with this sentiment. I almost wish he said a bit more about what he knew b/c I honestly think he was thrown under the bus by the media. I just don't understand how people expected him to just call the cops on a longtime friend b/c a graduate assistant conveyed that he thought some horsing around was going on the day before. McQueary and JoePa both admitted that the sense of sodomy wasn't presented in their conversation but that it was serious.

Instead, Joe Pa recognized it was a conflict of interest and he wasn't competent to handle the investigation so he forwarded it to his superiors. You know the ones who covered it all up. Certainly, Joe Pa could have done more and followed up and for that he is at fault but he became the scapegoat in this whole thing for mostly the failure of others. Joe Pa made the mistake of putting his fate in others' hands but if McQueary called the cops then or the administration didn't lie, then Joe Pa is still coaching Penn State.

sagegrouse
01-22-2012, 11:36 PM
Sally Jenkins (http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joe-paterno-dies-leaving-a-record-for-others-to-debate/2012/01/22/gIQA24bsIQ_story.html)did Paterno's last interview. Joe had known her father for 40+ years.

killerleft
01-23-2012, 09:11 AM
Both my parents died from lung cancer. Having seen how the disease creeps up on people and leaves them without the ability to think clearly, I'm not sure at all that JoePa was really able to defend himself properly during the media onslaught against him.

I remember that my dad (a retired sportswriter) one day asked me to proofread a freelance sports column he had written about the Bald Head Island golf course, which we had visited the week before. He had asked me to drive because he didn't trust himself. I was surprised with both requests, because he had certainly not needed my help before, and didn't usually ask for help with anything. His work had numerous typos and several incomplete sentences. When he saw the results, he called the magazine and said he didn't expect to write for them again.

To make a long story short, this was five months before he died, and still a month before he was diagnosed with cancer.

So, I've wondered all along if Paterno was incapacitated enough at "Sandusky time" to forget key incidents and little bits of conversation that may have helped him to defend himself better. Who knows? I doubt he really did.

slower
01-23-2012, 12:38 PM
Seems like Paterno should be neither vilified nor deified.

mkline09
01-23-2012, 04:22 PM
For me the mark of a man or woman for that matter can always be felt by the emotions of people when they pass. Some people leave scarcely a stain on life that is quickly washed away by time. The reaction upon those people's departure is minimal at best. The great ones, the ones that leave an indelible mark, usually pass and their departure resonates for some time. I think we see that with Paterno. I know several Penn State folks and they are still very upset at his departure. Still none approved of his handling of the Sandusky case, but they all know what he meant for Penn State and that 99.9 percent of his actions were honorable. That isn't to say that that .1 percent will or should be forgotten or forgiven. We all make mistakes in this life. Some of them small, some of them big. Paterno's legacy is still yet to be determined but I'm willing to bet that over time many will distinguish his huge mistake from the rest of his life which was spent doing things the right way. He left a mark and I feel was a good man who made an extremely poor judgment. That isn't consolaton to the victims of Sandusky's henious crimes, but to those that knew Paterno and what was really in his heart and the good he did, they know him to be one of those great honorable men that are hard to forget.

roywhite
01-23-2012, 04:35 PM
For me the mark of a man or woman for that matter can always be felt by the emotions of people when they pass. Some people leave scarcely a stain on life that is quickly washed away by time. The reaction upon those people's departure is minimal at best. The great ones, the ones that leave an indelible mark, usually pass and their departure resonates for some time. I think we see that with Paterno. I know several Penn State folks and they are still very upset at his departure. Still none approved of his handling of the Sandusky case, but they all know what he meant for Penn State and that 99.9 percent of his actions were honorable. That isn't to say that that .1 percent will or should be forgotten or forgiven. We all make mistakes in this life. Some of them small, some of them big. Paterno's legacy is still yet to be determined but I'm willing to bet that over time many will distinguish his huge mistake from the rest of his life which was spent doing things the right way. He left a mark and I feel was a good man who made an extremely poor judgment. That isn't consolaton to the victims of Sandusky's henious crimes, but to those that knew Paterno and what was really in his heart and the good he did, they know him to be one of those great honorable men that are hard to forget.


I generally agree with your comments and I hesitate to get into this, since there are some strongly held opinions about the Sandusky scandal.

But I really don't agree that he made an "extremely poor judgment". He reported an incident concerning an ex-employee that he heard second hand, and reported it within one day to his superiors at Penn State. Comments from the Grand Jury personnel are that he was a cooperative witness who was not charged with wrongdoing. Jerry Sandusky, athletic director Tim Curley, and administrator Gary Schultz were charged with crimes. President Spanier, who IMO dropped the ball here big-time, lost his job. Yet we hear comparatively little blame for them. Joe did his job in this incident (did not go over and above); if the other individuals had done their job, Sandusky could have been stopped in 2002.

By the way, Coach K's comments about Paterno and his legacy were outstanding. They are linked in post #21 by mph in this thread. I encourage anyone who has not heard or read these comments to take a few minutes and do so.

SoCalDukeFan
01-23-2012, 05:00 PM
I generally agree with your comments and I hesitate to get into this, since there are some strongly held opinions about the Sandusky scandal.

But I really don't agree that he made an "extremely poor judgment". He reported an incident concerning an ex-employee that he heard second hand, and reported it within one day to his superiors at Penn State. Comments from the Grand Jury personnel are that he was a cooperative witness who was not charged with wrongdoing. Jerry Sandusky, athletic director Tim Curley, and administrator Gary Schultz were charged with crimes. President Spanier, who IMO dropped the ball here big-time, lost his job. Yet we hear comparatively little blame for them. Joe did his job in this incident (did not go over and above); if the other individuals had done their job, Sandusky could have been stopped in 2002.

By the way, Coach K's comments about Paterno and his legacy were outstanding. They are linked in post #21 by mph in this thread. I encourage anyone who has not heard or read these comments to take a few minutes and do so.

I agree completely with this.

If all this is true than Sandusky is a sick man. Curley, Schultz and Spanier really failed Penn State, Joe Paterno, and most importantly the victims of Sandusky's sickness.

SoCal
"

Duvall
01-23-2012, 05:04 PM
I generally agree with your comments and I hesitate to get into this, since there are some strongly held opinions about the Sandusky scandal.

But I really don't agree that he made an "extremely poor judgment". He reported an incident concerning an ex-employee that he heard second hand, and reported it within one day to his superiors at Penn State. Comments from the Grand Jury personnel are that he was a cooperative witness who was not charged with wrongdoing. Jerry Sandusky, athletic director Tim Curley, and administrator Gary Schultz were charged with crimes. President Spanier, who IMO dropped the ball here big-time, lost his job. Yet we hear comparatively little blame for them. Joe did his job in this incident (did not go over and above); if the other individuals had done their job, Sandusky could have been stopped in 2002.

And after they failed, one phone call from Joe Paterno could have stopped Sandusky in 2002, or 2003, or 2004...

That will also be part of his legacy. The reason why we have heard little blame Curley, Schultz and Spanier is that they won't *have* legacies to discuss.

cspan37421
01-23-2012, 07:45 PM
But I really don't agree that he made an "extremely poor judgment". He reported an incident concerning an ex-employee that he heard second hand, and reported it within one day to his superiors at Penn State.

Joe was a great football coach - arguably, the greatest ever. Yet he could have been even greater if, instead of treating McQueary's claims as potential NCAA violations, he treated them as a report of a crime, and said, "Mike, you need to say to the police what you just said to me. Here, use my phone and call them."

And it's one thing to not distinguish the two in the moment, but with days, weeks, years to reflect?

SMO
01-23-2012, 08:53 PM
Joe was a great football coach - arguably, the greatest ever. Yet he could have been even greater if, instead of treating McQueary's claims as potential NCAA violations, he treated them as a report of a crime, and said, "Mike, you need to say to the police what you just said to me. Here, use my phone and call them."

And it's one thing to not distinguish the two in the moment, but with days, weeks, years to reflect?

What exactly did McQueary say to him that would have prompted that response? Please reference McQueary's exact words.

bundabergdevil
01-23-2012, 09:36 PM
I'm just not convinced that knowing exactly what McCreary told Paterno really makes that much of a difference because whatever it was, it was enough that both Paterno and McCreary knew that Sandusky was doing something extremely inappropriate with a child. I believe McCreary used the language "horsing around" but obviously it was enough to convey the implications and when those implications involve a man and a child in a shower, you'll quickly lose any allowances for a gray area, in my opinion. Listen, say McCreary came in and said "Coach, I saw Sandusky horsing around in the showers with one of your grandchildren." You don't think the situation would have been handled differently? All that being said, I also try to put my 80 year old grandmother in that situation and I'm just not sure she would be equipped to appropriately deal with it.

The media has probably unfairly focused on Paterno, my guess is for two reasons: 1) Obviously he's the most famous; and 2) His role, IMO, is fraught with the greatest moral questions, which is obvious from this board's discussion. I think everyone agrees that McCreary could have done significantly more and my disappointment with him is way more than with Paterno. And obviously the leadership is standing trial. So there's no arguments there. They screwed up big time and are being held legally responsible. But Paterno, he met his legal duty but, as it turned out, it just wasn't enough and terrible things continued to happen. So, it shouldn't surprise us that so much of the coverage has focused on Paterno.

A lot of posters have said they wonder if the media onslaught hastened Paterno's demise. I sort of wonder the opposite. Was he reflecting on his own motives, on what he could have done instead? If I were in that same situation and made the same decisions as Paterno, I would be going through a very personal and painful period of introspection. One that would be especially difficult to manage with lung cancer. It would be something that haunted me for a long time if I could not absolutely be certain that I did the right thing. Paterno's interviews after the scandal indicate that there might have been some soul searching but it is impossible to say. Maybe my inclination is to look inward before attacking others but it is something that I wonder.

cspan37421
01-24-2012, 12:30 AM
What exactly did McQueary say to him that would have prompted that response? Please reference McQueary's exact words.

If you didn't already know, McQueary's exact words are not provided in the Grand Jury presentment. However, it does state that McQueary said that after he witnessed the boy being anally raped, he [eventually] went to Paterno's house, "where he reported what he had seen."

Paterno then reported to Curley that McQueary told him that Sandusky was "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a boy." [interesting how it got less specific]

As an aside, the benign "horsing around" wording was claimed by Curley, and his denial that he was informed of anything more specific was deemed by the grand jury to have been a materially false statement. You can read it all in the Presentment, and if you haven't done so already, I encourage you to read it.

SMO
01-24-2012, 06:25 AM
If you didn't already know, McQueary's exact words are not provided in the Grand Jury presentment. However, it does state that McQueary said that after he witnessed the boy being anally raped, he [eventually] went to Paterno's house, "where he reported what he had seen."

Paterno then reported to Curley that McQueary told him that Sandusky was "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a boy." [interesting how it got less specific]

As an aside, the benign "horsing around" wording was claimed by Curley, and his denial that he was informed of anything more specific was deemed by the grand jury to have been a materially false statement. You can read it all in the Presentment, and if you haven't done so already, I encourage you to read it.

I actually did read it. I was surprised to see you prescribe exactly what Paterno should have said in response so I thought perhaps you had more specific knowledge of their conversation. Despite that not being the case, you see fit to judge the man upon news of his death behind the anonymity of an Internet forum. How dignified.

cspan37421
01-24-2012, 07:17 AM
I actually did read it. I was surprised to see you prescribe exactly what Paterno should have said in response so I thought perhaps you had more specific knowledge of their conversation. Despite that not being the case, you see fit to judge the man upon news of his death behind the anonymity of an Internet forum. How dignified.

There is no need to take that tone.

Nearly every person on this thread (with the exception of Bob Green and Roy White) is judging the man upon news of his death behind the anonymity of an internet forum. Most of those judgments are extremely positive and unqualified. A couple, including mine, were positive yet qualified, like most news reports of his passing. What's the big deal about that?

-jk
01-24-2012, 09:17 AM
Let's not get into personal fights, please.

-jk

greybeard
01-24-2012, 12:21 PM
For what it is worth, I still don't know that, had Paterno consulted a knowledgeable, experienced criminal attorney immediately after McQuearey's visit, the attorney would not have instructed his client to do exactually and no more the what Paterno did. Everyone seems to agree that Paterno acted appropriately by reporting immediately to his superiors who were responsible for such matters what he had been told. Now, by suggesting that he should have done "more" it seems that people are faulting Paterno for not going to those guys and saying, "What's up, is there an invesstigation going on?" However, this event occurred in Paterno's building, undoubtedly could have detrimental implications for his program, and raised the spectre that an investigation might have included the question "What did Joe know and when did he know it." Suppose he went to his superiors to get the skinny; would people be saying, "Joe had alot of yank, made this inquiry to find out where things were going so that he could protect his program and perhaps, more importantly, himself."

Once this thing came to light years later, Paterno was indeed called before the grand jury, and, while he had not been indicted, nothing I have read or heard suggests that he was not a "person of interest" or would not become one. To the contrary, during an ensuing press conference, the Attorney General herself, when asked about Paterno's status, said something to the effect that the investigaion was on-going. And, while scades of sports commentators in all sorts of media have expressed their views to the effect that Joe should have done the proverbial "more," others have speculated that he had done more than enough--that Joe must have done what he could to deep six this story by placing the matter in the hands of professionals whom he knew would deep six it, and some have gone so far as to suggest that he must have been complicitous in such an effort.

One can only wonder what the talk would have been had Paterno followed up with Curry and the other guy and pressed to know where the matter stood. That, it seems to me, had its own can of worms, potentially much more swarmy than the can that has been opened by Paterno's having done what everyone concedes was the logical, appropriate, and proper step. If anyone has thought through the implications of Joe's having chosen to do "more" when even a child would have to have appreciated the obvious conflict of interest that such an inquiry would have implicated, I haven't heard it. Personally, I have never thought myself equiped to know what proper legal advice would have dictated and have not tried to unravel the possible scenarios that might have been spun.

Finally, it struck me at the time, and still does, as passing strange that the authors of the Grand Jury report, that would be the subordinates to the Attorney General for the State of Pennsyvania, provided all sorts of sordid details in the report about who said what about what was alleged to have occurred but that they somehow forgot to provide us with in hoc verba McQuearey's testimony about what he told Joe the morning after--whether he claimed that he told Joe that he had witnessed an anal rape or contradicted in any material respect Joe's testimony on this crucial matter which the report did spell out.. Actually, they did leave us with a clue about McQuearey's testimony was--Joe was not indicted along with the others for perjury. Perhaps more telling was the failure of the report to speak to whether McQuearey did anything on the spot to put a stop to what was going on (please don't tell me this was a devil or the deep blue sea situation to excuse the clear inference that McQuearey did nothing until the following morning--I'm not buying it (there were several options short of walking in and tearing Sandusky off, if not apart, that would have worked.)

So, Joe's program and University were losing blood badly, and the powers that be decided that Joe needed to take the hit along with others to help stop the bleeding to the extent possible. There is enough here, the length of time that this stuff was going on, to sully all those around Sandusky's continued relationship with the University and the program, Joe chief among them. "That's the way it goes." Leonard Cohen, Everybody Knows (a more than pretty good listen, by the way, especially the cover by Rufus Wainright).

SMO
01-24-2012, 12:22 PM
There is no need to take that tone.

Nearly every person on this thread (with the exception of Bob Green and Roy White) is judging the man upon news of his death behind the anonymity of an internet forum. Most of those judgments are extremely positive and unqualified. A couple, including mine, were positive yet qualified, like most news reports of his passing. What's the big deal about that?

I think we'd be better off relying on the words of those close to Paterno (former players, etc) and those closest to the Sandusky investigation (PA attorneys general) rather than rehashing our own conjecture on what he should have done and what kind of man he was.

Among those he has some critics, but a pattern emerges that suggests he was much more than a great football coach, which was the extent of your qualified praise.

roywhite
01-24-2012, 02:19 PM
The pending legal cases against Penn State administrators Curley and Schultz will apparently by impacted by Paterno's death, as noted in this NYT article:

Testimony from Paterno is no Longer Admissible (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/sports/ncaafootball/paternos-death-costs-state-a-key-witness.html)


The death of Joe Paterno on Sunday will partly weaken the state’s prosecution of two former university officials who have been charged in connection with the child sexual abuse case involving Jerry Sandusky.

Paterno was expected to testify at the trials of Tim Curley, the former Penn State athletic director, and Gary Schultz, the university’s former senior vice president for finance and business. However, it is unclear how much of an effect the lack of that testimony will have on the state’s case against Curley and Schultz....

“Now that Paterno is deceased, this charge will have to stand only on the report by McQueary,” said Geoff Moulton, a former federal prosecutor and an associate professor at Widener School of Law. “With respect to Victim 2 and the charges against Curley and Schultz, McQueary’s testimony, which has always been critical, is even more so.”

throatybeard
01-24-2012, 04:55 PM
Posnanski remembrance:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/joe_posnanski/01/24/joe.paterno/index.html?xid=cnnbin

Kfanarmy
01-25-2012, 01:57 AM
And after they failed, one phone call from Joe Paterno could have stopped Sandusky in 2002, or 2003, or 2004...

That will also be part of his legacy. The reason why we have heard little blame Curley, Schultz and Spanier is that they won't *have* legacies to discuss. I suspect that most who have the greatest outrage about what Joe Paterno didn't do...that is use his influence to further an investigation that he didn't even know had to go further...would be the first to villify him if he had made that call, gotten someone fired, only to find out after the fact that the allegation had been determined to be unfounded. Unfortunately for Joe, there was no right answer here. Those people who are always looking to drag down icons, would have found fault in him simply for the fact that the allegation occurred on his watch. Not using his influence when he could have or using his influence when he shouldn't have are the only two realities they are capable of seeing.

Indoor66
01-25-2012, 07:36 AM
I suspect that most who have the greatest outrage about what Joe Paterno didn't do...that is use his influence to further an investigation that he didn't even know had to go further...would be the first to villify him if he had made that call, gotten someone fired, only to find out after the fact that the allegation had been determined to be unfounded. Unfortunately for Joe, there was no right answer here. Those people who are always looking to drag down icons, would have found fault in him simply for the fact that the allegation occurred on his watch. Not using his influence when he could have or using his influence when he shouldn't have are the only two realities they are capable of seeing.

Well said. Fault finders always find fault.

bundabergdevil
01-25-2012, 11:46 AM
I think "fault finders will find fault" is not a fair characterization of those in the media and those of us on this board who think its possible to include in Paterno's legacy both his obvious good works and his role in this scandal. It's possible to discuss other public figures (I'm thinking of several politicians in particular) both in terms of their great deeds and the events in their lives that some would consider personal failings. As someone earlier in the thread said, Paterno should neither be vilified or deified. It seems to me that those who disagree with the conclusion that Paterno could have done more are jumping to the conclusion that those of us who do think he could have done more are somehow vilifying him. I don't think that's the case at all - Paterno was obviously not just a great football coach but a moral man who did a tremendous amount of good in the world.

And, in the context of the Sandusky tragedy, his moral involvement, IMO, is a 1 next to McCreary's 10 and the AD's 10. But he was one of the 4 individuals that knew of the situation. He was a part of the chain of information that linked a child getting assaulted in a restroom to adults in a position of power to act. Sandusky continued to be around Penn State facilities for another 8 years, in full view of the 4 individuals who knew of the shower incident, yet nothing happened. For that, I don't understand how he could not be part of the discussion of what went wrong...of the debate over how those 4 individuals failed to see it properly investigated.

It took a child to finally come forward. It took a mother to ignore the defensiveness of a school principal and teacher and go directly to the authorities.

The man himself said, ""This is a tragedy, it is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

I think that is an apt description of what most of us are saying. It's an absolutely tragic moment in an otherwise brilliant life. It was a horrible situation to be involved in and, in many ways, is unfair to all those swept up in it but in retrospect, he had the opportunity to do more (and he absolutely could have done any number of things differently) and he simply did not. And that's regretful

roywhite
01-25-2012, 12:05 PM
I think "fault finders will find fault" is not a fair characterization of those in the media and those of us on this board who think its possible to include in Paterno's legacy both his obvious good works and his role in this scandal. It's possible to discuss other public figures (I'm thinking of several politicians in particular) both in terms of their great deeds and the events in their lives that some would consider personal failings. As someone earlier in the thread said, Paterno should neither be vilified or deified. It seems to me that those who disagree with the conclusion that Paterno could have done more are jumping to the conclusion that those of us who do think he could have done more are somehow vilifying him. I don't think that's the case at all - Paterno was obviously not just a great football coach but a moral man who did a tremendous amount of good in the world.

And, in the context of the Sandusky tragedy, his moral involvement, IMO, is a 1 next to McCreary's 10 and the AD's 10. But he was one of the 4 individuals that knew of the situation. He was a part of the chain of information that linked a child getting assaulted in a restroom to adults in a position of power to act. Sandusky continued to be around Penn State facilities for another 8 years, in full view of the 4 individuals who knew of the shower incident, yet nothing happened. For that, I don't understand how he could not be part of the discussion of what went wrong...of the debate over how those 4 individuals failed to see it properly investigated.

It took a child to finally come forward. It took a mother to ignore the defensiveness of a school principal and teacher and go directly to the authorities.

The man himself said, ""This is a tragedy, it is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

I think that is an apt description of what most of us are saying. It's an absolutely tragic moment in an otherwise brilliant life. It was a horrible situation to be involved in and, in many ways, is unfair to all those swept up in it but in retrospect, he had the opportunity to do more (and he absolutely could have done any number of things differently) and he simply did not. And that's regretful

I'd say that's a pretty fair and reasonable summary, not necessarily how I look at it, but entirely reasonable.

One of the things that bothered me is that for a person who was 1 on your scale compared to others who were 10, Joe certainly caught a lot of the flak.
In addition to McQueary and AD Curley, I also count adminstrator Schultz, President Spanier, and almost certainly some of the Board of Trustees as those that had more moral and even practical involvement in this not getting stopped. And, if we wanted to go a step further, the State of PA Attorney General's office investigated this for 2 years+ before even arresting Sandusky, which is time lost.

The Board of Trustees included a number of very well connected people in the Penn State community who could well have known about the 2002 incident and even about the 1998 incident, for which no charges were ultimately brought. In addition, they were informed in March of 2011 that the Grand Jury investigation had taken testimony from a number of high-rankign officials and that Sandusky could face serious charges. Yet they were totally unprepared for the scandal when it hit. In trying to get ahead of things, they ultimately met and fired Joe, and not in a respectful way.

The best disinfectant for this scandal is sunlight. We still need to hear from Schultz, Curley, Spanier, most of the Board of Trustees as to their roles.

I think Penn State will overcome this, and I think Paterno's legacy, while not spotless, will eventually be far more positive than negative.

killerleft
01-25-2012, 12:18 PM
bundabergdevil says:

The man himself said, ""This is a tragedy, it is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

Is this an indictment of just Paterno, or does it go for the hundreds of others who might truthfully say the same thing? With the benefit of hindsight, I would have stopped the Kennedy assassination.

PADukeMom
01-25-2012, 12:34 PM
When I was 6 my big brother went away to attend Penn State Main. He gave me his old beat-up AM radio. I remember listening to my first Penn State football game that September. I had no clue at that time how football was play, what a quarterback was or why everyone called Penn State Linebacker U. Listening to football made me feel closer to my brother so when he came home I could talk to him about football & Joe Paterno who I was quickly told was always called JoePa. When he came home with a Penn State cheerleader's pompom & a Penn State T shirt I was SOLD! I fondly remember not being able to wait for the Saturday after Thanksgiving for our arch rival Pitt game. Who cared about Christmas when New Year's Day meant seeing Penn State in a bowl game.

I believe I was 15 when I finally got to see my very first football game at Penn State. It was against TCU. I could not wait to see the players but more importantly seeing JoePa in his thick glasses & rolled up pant legs. That is when I made my decision I was going to attend Penn State myself.

Joe Paterno was the father of Pennsylvania & I will miss him terribly. Rest In Peace JoePa.

Kfanarmy
01-25-2012, 03:46 PM
bundabergdevil says:

The man himself said, ""This is a tragedy, it is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

Is this an indictment of just Paterno, or does it go for the hundreds of others who might truthfully say the same thing? With the benefit of hindsight, I would have stopped the Kennedy assassination. Though i don't know for sure, I believe Joe Paterno meant exactly what he said: "I wish I had done more"...not "I should have done more." There are a million unjust acts that people wish they could go back and fix...that doesn't mean they are even partially responsible for them. I simply don't find that he was in any way complicit in the acts that Sandusky has been accused of.

bundabergdevil
01-25-2012, 03:46 PM
bundabergdevil says:

The man himself said, ""This is a tragedy, it is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."

Is this an indictment of just Paterno, or does it go for the hundreds of others who might truthfully say the same thing? With the benefit of hindsight, I would have stopped the Kennedy assassination.

It was not meant to be an indictment of Paterno. They're his words and I spent most of that post trying to respectfully discuss why those of us who believe he could have done more are not trying to vilify him. I'm also not sure how the JFK example is relevant as I'm assuming you are not one of four people who had knowledge that Lee Harvey was going to do what he did...unless you spend a lot of time hanging around grassy knolls!

The media scrutiny of Paterno is not fair but he's the most famous person in the case and that's just the way it is. His place in this whole mess is also the most morally ambiguous which means its the most ripe for heated disagreement. As I state in my post above, I consider his moral involvement a 1 next to the 10s of some of the other players. As roywhite rightly notes, there are a lot of other folks whose actions deserve to be dissected as well but from a combination of Paterno's iconic status and his muddled role, the focus has fallen on him.

I'll put my position another way. I believe Paterno did the right thing. However, I believe there were many "right" and "wrong" courses of action from which he could have chosen. He could have told McCreary to ignore it as an example of a wrong action. He could have also said to McCreary, "If you are confident in what you saw then you need to go to the (not campus) police. I'll let my superiors know that we have a problem." That's an alternative "right" course of action to the one that Paterno ultimately decided on. It's also one that is perfectly reasonable and is required by law in other states (not Pennsylvania). In my opinion, while he chose a right course of action, there were several that I personally would have considered "better right", if that makes sense.

I'll contextualize my point of view by saying that I'm very close with someone who spent many years in the child exploitation field and from all those stories my gut position will always be "what could have been done to make sure this did not happen." My goal isn't to find fault or accuse of Paterno of anything, it's to ask what can we learn from this. My hope is that from a mess like this, there is a greater emphasis on ownership of a moral dilemma at every node in the flow of information. That is, the buck stops with everyone. In this case, the hope would have been that McCreary especially, but also Paterno, continued to own the problem when it became clear that nothing was being done and Sandusky was still wandering around the facilities.

Kfanarmy
01-25-2012, 03:53 PM
I'll contextualize my point of view by saying that I'm very close with someone who spent many years in the child exploitation field and from all those stories my gut position will always be "what could have been done to make sure this did not happen." My goal isn't to find fault or accuse of Paterno of anything, it's to ask what can we learn from this. My hope is that from a mess like this, there is a greater emphasis on ownership of a moral dilemma at every node in the flow of information. That is, the buck stops with everyone. In this case, the hope would have been that McCreary especially, but also Paterno, continued to own the problem when it became clear that nothing was being done and Sandusky was still wandering around the facilities. Perhaps before going down too many roads of "lessons learned," we should also wait and find out if a jury agrees these events did happen and that Mr Sandusky is guilty of having committed them.

killerleft
01-25-2012, 05:00 PM
It was not meant to be an indictment of Paterno. They're his words and I spent most of that post trying to respectfully discuss why those of us who believe he could have done more are not trying to vilify him. I'm also not sure how the JFK example is relevant as I'm assuming you are not one of four people who had knowledge that Lee Harvey was going to do what he did...unless you spend a lot of time hanging around grassy knolls!

The media scrutiny of Paterno is not fair but he's the most famous person in the case and that's just the way it is. His place in this whole mess is also the most morally ambiguous which means its the most ripe for heated disagreement. As I state in my post above, I consider his moral involvement a 1 next to the 10s of some of the other players. As roywhite rightly notes, there are a lot of other folks whose actions deserve to be dissected as well but from a combination of Paterno's iconic status and his muddled role, the focus has fallen on him.

I'll put my position another way. I believe Paterno did the right thing. However, I believe there were many "right" and "wrong" courses of action from which he could have chosen. He could have told McCreary to ignore it as an example of a wrong action. He could have also said to McCreary, "If you are confident in what you saw then you need to go to the (not campus) police. I'll let my superiors know that we have a problem." That's an alternative "right" course of action to the one that Paterno ultimately decided on. It's also one that is perfectly reasonable and is required by law in other states (not Pennsylvania). In my opinion, while he chose a right course of action, there were several that I personally would have considered "better right", if that makes sense.

I'll contextualize my point of view by saying that I'm very close with someone who spent many years in the child exploitation field and from all those stories my gut position will always be "what could have been done to make sure this did not happen." My goal isn't to find fault or accuse of Paterno of anything, it's to ask what can we learn from this. My hope is that from a mess like this, there is a greater emphasis on ownership of a moral dilemma at every node in the flow of information. That is, the buck stops with everyone. In this case, the hope would have been that McCreary especially, but also Paterno, continued to own the problem when it became clear that nothing was being done and Sandusky was still wandering around the facilities.

Your position is not unfair, and learning from this situation and preventing other people from committing such acts is a noble goal.

I would only caution people that what we've heard does not encompass everything that might or might not have been said or done. Was Paterno sold a story by Schultz and/or Curley (the alleged liars, if I remember correctly) that led him to believe that the situation was being taken care of in the correct way? Remember, it was not Joe Paterno who allegedly witnessed these acts. He pushed the story up the ladder as was correct. Was Joe to just assume that Sandusky was guilty and keep pushing, or trust that a proper investigation took place?

I don't know the answers, but neither do any of us on this board. And there are many other questions that haven't been answered. That's why I can't figure out how so many people can pretend they do know.

But I can assure you that if I had the benefit of hindsight, I could make a lot of money gambling on football games.

roywhite
01-26-2012, 06:41 PM
During a memorial service for Joe Paterno held today (1/26) on Penn State's campus, Nike chairman Phil Knight delivered a stirring address.

In this portion, Knight ripped the Penn State trustees (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/knight-rips-trustees-at-paterno-memorial)


“There is a villain in this tragedy, it lies in that investigation, not in Joe Paterno’s response to it,” Knight said to a huge ovation.

Duvall
01-26-2012, 06:49 PM
During a memorial service for Joe Paterno held today (1/26) on Penn State's campus, Nike chairman Phil Knight delivered a stirring address.

Understandable. (http://www.clc.com/clcweb/publishing.nsf/Content/Rankings+Annual+FY2011+Rankings)

Duvall
01-26-2012, 06:53 PM
I suspect that most who have the greatest outrage about what Joe Paterno didn't do...that is use his influence to further an investigation that he didn't even know had to go further...would be the first to villify him if he had made that call, gotten someone fired, only to find out after the fact that the allegation had been determined to be unfounded. Unfortunately for Joe, there was no right answer here. Those people who are always looking to drag down icons, would have found fault in him simply for the fact that the allegation occurred on his watch. Not using his influence when he could have or using his influence when he shouldn't have are the only two realities they are capable of seeing.

That doesn't actually make sense. Think about what you are suggesting - a third-party adult eyewitness had come forward to describe what was, in Paterno's words, inappropriate fondling of a child, and you can conceive of a scenario in which Paterno would have been criticized for doing more than making a couple of phone calls? That strains credulity past the breaking point.


Though i don't know for sure, I believe Joe Paterno meant exactly what he said: "I wish I had done more"...not "I should have done more." There are a million unjust acts that people wish they could go back and fix...that doesn't mean they are even partially responsible for them. I simply don't find that he was in any way complicit in the acts that Sandusky has been accused of.

It is important to remember that complicity and responsibility are two very different concepts. It is possible for someone in a position of authority to have moral responsibilities even when he is in no way complicit in the underlying acts.

Paterno may well not have believed that he should have done more. Based on his own description of events, he was wrong.

roywhite
01-26-2012, 06:56 PM
Understandable. (http://www.clc.com/clcweb/publishing.nsf/Content/Rankings+Annual+FY2011+Rankings)

Well, that seems a little snarky.

I encourage you to watch the entire address, a little over 10 minutes.

Phil Knight speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTZQAGx9rDY)

Knight calls Paterno his personal hero. Knight has also reached a point in his life where he has considerable fame and fortune, and speaks his mind.

PADukeMom
01-27-2012, 10:38 AM
During a memorial service for Joe Paterno held today (1/26) on Penn State's campus, Nike chairman Phil Knight delivered a stirring address.

In this portion, Knight ripped the Penn State trustees (http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/knight-rips-trustees-at-paterno-memorial)

I watched the entire service yesterday afternoon. Thank you Phil Knight for your amazing tribute. Your words touched the heart of the wounded Penn State Nation. Phil, if you are looking for a new hero I believe there is a guy down in Durham that instills those same values as JoePa. I can't vouch on his ability to sing "Wild Thing" with a nasally Brookyln accent.

I can not even imagine not seeing JoePa pacing the sidelines anymore. I hope & pray the Coach O'Brien continues those values that was Penn State Pride & PLEASE don't change those plain uniforms.

Kfanarmy
01-27-2012, 12:37 PM
That doesn't actually make sense. Think about what you are suggesting - a third-party adult eyewitness had come forward to describe what was, in Paterno's words, inappropriate fondling of a child, and you can conceive of a scenario in which Paterno would have been criticized for doing more than making a couple of phone calls? That strains credulity past the breaking point.

It is important to remember that complicity and responsibility are two very different concepts. It is possible for someone in a position of authority to have moral responsibilities even when he is in no way complicit in the underlying acts.

Paterno may well not have believed that he should have done more. Based on his own description of events, he was wrong.

While it is always good to have someone standing on the moral high ground telling you what to do, seldom do they point out their lofty position in time to take responsibility for their recommendations.

The facts as I understand them:
--A witness described to the head football coach what he believed to be sexual assault.
--The witness did/had not called the police nor had he related an attempt to stop the assault.
--The alleged perpetrator was a former employee, some three years retired, who had access to campus through the athletic department. He was the face of a major child-oriented charity that was supported by the university (indirectly at least).
--The coach informed the athletic director; who in turn informed the University President.
--The alleged victim made no report
--The University President controlled the campus police.



What I believe based on the news
--The witness never followed up
--The alleged victim, in this incident only, has stated that McQuery's testimony is incorrect and there was no sexually oriented contact.
--The coach never followed up
--The athletic director banned Sandusky from using the faciliites
--the University President, did not inform the campus police, and those in senior leadership at the university weren't real interested in staining the university's rep.

Without the witness putting in writing what he saw and/or giving the report to the police, Joe Paterno's hearsay wasn't worth much. While people may think Joe Paterno was all-powerful, his influence was waning when this whole incident occurred...he was in his 70's and there were significant numbers of people who thought he should retire. Less than two years later, a delegation went to his house to ask him to retire. The Athletic director on the other hand, could and did restrict Sandusky from the facilities and forward the report to the University President, who had access to the head of campus police. The university president didn't direct the campus police to investigate. At that point, it was up to the witness to tell the local police...Joe Paterno had no authority off-campus, and at the time, probably did not have overpowering influence with the university president. I am one who thinks he had no moral responsibilty to go further than reporting what he was told...Had he been in McQuery's shoes or had McQuery followed up with him, I would feel differently.

I believe it is not only conceivable that Paterno would have been villified if he had inadvertantly gotten Sandusky removed from his charity only to have him later proven innocent; it is likely. It is also likely that the greatest outcry would have come from the same moral high ground.

Pghdukie
01-27-2012, 02:07 PM
As a PSU grad, one cannot fathom how devistated we were when the news broke. I urge all of you to enjoy the Duke ride as well as we Nit Lion Alum have. And please, be thankful for the pleasures that the Duke Blue Devils program has given us.