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View Full Version : MBB: Florida State 76, Duke 73 Post Game Thread



Bob Green
01-21-2012, 06:17 PM
Oh well, at least we didn't lose by 33...

muzikfrk75
01-21-2012, 06:17 PM
Oh the free throws....

1 24 90
01-21-2012, 06:17 PM
I really wish that bizarre 3 at the half didn't go in.

2 buzzer beaters by Snaer.

Ugh.

hurleyfor3
01-21-2012, 06:18 PM
When was the last time we lost on a true buzzer-beater -- that is, a shot to decide the game with no time remaining? Pretty sure there was time left against vcu in 2007.

dcar1985
01-21-2012, 06:18 PM
How Dre fell asleep on that play is beyond me....helluva game though

feldspar
01-21-2012, 06:18 PM
I really wish that bizarre 3 at the half didn't go in.


Yeah no kidding. Rivers' 3 goes in and that one doesn't, and we win by 3.

Oh well. FSU's turning into a monster team. They play the kind of defense we should be playing. Frustrating.

CLW
01-21-2012, 06:19 PM
It's really simple this team just isn't very good defensively.

Against the 117 best offense in the country (according to Kenpom):

Gave up 50 points in the 2nd half; allowed 54% for the game from the field and only forced 13 turnovers.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-21-2012, 06:19 PM
Our defense just couldn't stop them, pure and simple. Offensively, I thought we played pretty well. Our defense just couldn't get it done. Credit their offense or rip our defense? I don't know. Great, great game, though.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 06:20 PM
Poor shooting by the Blue Devils, an opponent who plays their best game and officials who are (again) incredibly poor at their job...and it takes a lucky three for the win. Tough loss.

And Len Elmore could barely contain his glee...

Chris Randolph
01-21-2012, 06:21 PM
Dawkins was a spectator on that last play. Not paying attention to his man, just staring at the ball handler. We've known he can be a defensive liability at times and he definitely was there.

Biggest story of the game was our horrendous defense in the 2nd half. They got WHATEVER shot they wanted. Amazes me how they get their bigs open touches right around the block area yet we can't get our bigs anything close to an open touch.

Very disappointing loss. I understand that FSU is hot right now but they are an unranked opponent. You gotta protect your home court in conference play, especially against unranked teams

BigZ
01-21-2012, 06:22 PM
That game winning 3 shouldn't have happened, Austin Rivers should have been on the foul line

lotusland
01-21-2012, 06:22 PM
I thought Duke played better defensively than they have all year but there were a few lapses. We had some opportunities at the end but AR and Ryan missed Free Throws and Seth missed a wide open 3. I'd say FSU was a little better and certainly executed better at the end. Wish we could havde forced a tougher shot with only 4.9 remaining but give the guy credit for knocking it down. Would have been a big win for Duke but next play.

anon
01-21-2012, 06:23 PM
Oh the free throws....

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but we shot 13-17 today. Unless we made all of them, free throws would not have won us the game. We shot a lot better this game from the line than we have in recent memory.

FellowTraveler
01-21-2012, 06:23 PM
How Dre fell asleep on that play is beyond me....helluva game though

He didn't. He and Austin both hedged toward the center of the court because nobody was in front of the ball-handler after Seth got caught on a screen at the other end of the court. Couldn't recover in time.

moonpie23
01-21-2012, 06:23 PM
dre didn't cover....


austin SHOULD have been shooting the +1 on his last basket.....


arrghh...

rsvman
01-21-2012, 06:24 PM
The end of the first half was pretty rough. We get Austin's ball to stay down and Snaer doesn't hit a circus shot, and we're up by 12 at the half.

Austin made a critical error with about 2 minutes left in the game, right after Dawkins made a huge 3 from the corner, Austin drives the baseline from the left side of the court and Dawkins is wide open for another attempt at 3, but Austin forces the shot up amongst two almost-7-footers instead. This ends up to be a turnover.

Obviously, he came up huge on our last possession, though.



Oh well. Next play and all........

lotusland
01-21-2012, 06:24 PM
That game winning 3 shouldn't have happened, Austin Rivers should have been on the foul line

Yep he was definitely fouled. It's not unusual for the officials to swallow their whistle in that situation unless you are Michael Jordan though.

CLW
01-21-2012, 06:25 PM
In re: Dre on the final play. I haven't watched it again but from the live action it looked to me that if he had stayed with his man that gave the FSU ball handler a wide open lane for a lay up at the buzzer.

If that is correct I think Dre did the right thing as a 3 is certainly harder than a layup.

dcar1985
01-21-2012, 06:26 PM
He didn't. He and Austin both hedged toward the center of the court because nobody was in front of the ball-handler after Seth got caught on a screen at the other end of the court. Couldn't recover in time.

Yea watch it again....all I got

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-21-2012, 06:26 PM
I thought Duke played better defensively than they have all year but there were a few lapses.

I strongly disagree. We had several chances to put them away but the defense could never get consistent stops.

They shot 54% for the game and pretty much got whatever they wanted.

I thought the poor defense cost us that game.

HDB
01-21-2012, 06:26 PM
That game winning 3 shouldn't have happened, Austin Rivers should have been on the foul line

I thought Austin got fouled as well, but think we got one in our favor on the blocking call on Kelly.

Our defense is the real culprit --- can't give up 50 in half against FSU and expect to win.

muzikfrk75
01-21-2012, 06:27 PM
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but we shot 13-17 today. Unless we made all of them, free throws would not have won us the game. We shot a lot better this game from the line than we have in recent memory.


I'll be specific...Kelly and his missed FTs near the end of the game...

anon
01-21-2012, 06:27 PM
In re: Dre on the final play. I haven't watched it again but from the live action it looked to me that if he had stayed with his man that gave the FSU ball handler a wide open lane for a lay up at the buzzer.

If that is correct I think Dre did the right thing as a 3 is certainly harder than a layup.

Yes, he was essentially charged with covering two men.

jv001
01-21-2012, 06:28 PM
Dawkins was a spectator on that last play. Not paying attention to his man, just staring at the ball handler. We've known he can be a defensive liability at times and he definitely was there.

Biggest story of the game was our horrendous defense in the 2nd half. They got WHATEVER shot they wanted. Amazes me how they get their bigs open touches right around the block area yet we can't get our bigs anything close to an open touch.

Very disappointing loss. I understand that FSU is hot right now but they are an unranked opponent. You gotta protect your home court in conference play, especially against unranked teams

I agree that Andre did fall asleep on the last play, but he showed me today that he can play defense if he wants to. He just has mental lapses. As for their bigs getting open, our bigs played terrible defense in the 2nd half. I don't know if it was the foul trouble, but they sure let up on defense. From what I've seen FSU may be the best team in the ACC right now. It sure isn't us. Not at this point in the season. We're good but not very good. Got to pick up the defense to be very good. GoDuke!

Chris Randolph
01-21-2012, 06:28 PM
He didn't. He and Austin both hedged toward the center of the court because nobody was in front of the ball-handler after Seth got caught on a screen at the other end of the court. Couldn't recover in time.

Look again, Ryan Kelly is near the top of the key in front of the ball handler. Dawkins is just standing at the elbow, not coming over to help.

feldspar
01-21-2012, 06:29 PM
officials who are (again) incredibly poor at their job...

I just really don't know where people get off with this kind of attitude. You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about.

It's one thing to say you didn't like a call or even that you disagreed with all of the calls. But to say three guys who are ACC veterans are poor at their jobs is just ludicrous, and it makes you look foolish.

Son of Mojo
01-21-2012, 06:29 PM
There were some defensive lapses, but what about relatively easy shots that should've been hit? Austin trying to do a fingerroll that gets blocked, Ryan shot faking the 3 but missing the 10' shot, and Seth missing a WIDE open 3. Not to mention the FT's. AND near the end Seth trying to throw an unnecessary alley oop to Mason. JUST GET THE POINTS!!! Give FSU their credit--they're good and improving. I would like to hear the gentle sounds of Len Elmore chok.........think good thoughts, think good thoughts..........NEXT.

CameronDuke
01-21-2012, 06:30 PM
Two of the bigger plays of the game that stand out to me are the bizarre 3 pointer they hit right before the half and obviously the final shot.

Benching Rivers the last game against Wake has obviously lit a fire under him. Two straight games of 19 or 20 points. Great to see the coaching staff have confidence in him as our go to guy when we needed a basket to tie it at the end. I thought he was fouled.

Our big men played their hearts out (Miles and Mason) but could not stop FSU's big men from scoring around the basket. It seemed like they could easily get into the paint and shoot high percentage shots the entire second half. We also got up by 9 I believe in the second half and had a chance to deliver the hay maker but missed a 3 and gave up two baskets, and it was a 4 point game again. We lack the killer instinct right now.

Credit FSU. They have two top five wins this week and should be ranked or very near ranked next week. The ACC games we play will all be close and a war from here on out, we aren't going to blow many teams out this season. It's just not that type of team. It really makes each victory we achieve special and something we shouldn't take for granted.

Next Play. I guarantee College Park is ready for us to come Wednesday. That will be another battle.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-21-2012, 06:31 PM
our bigs played terrible defense in the 2nd half. I don't know if it was the foul trouble, but they sure let up on defense.

Yeah, they had a rough day on the defensive end. There was one sequence in the second half where Mason made some great moves and blew a layup. I watched him coming back down the floor seeing how he would react. He kind of just stood around on D, got picked and gave up a wide open alley-oop dunk. It was frustrating to watch.

feldspar
01-21-2012, 06:31 PM
That game winning 3 shouldn't have happened, Austin Rivers should have been on the foul line

It makes no difference if Austin gets the call and hits a FT. FSU still has the same amount of time on the clock and still hits 3-pointer to win by 2.

RoyalBlue08
01-21-2012, 06:31 PM
I guess I must be biased, but I think Austin gets fouled at the rim about 500% more often than he gets the call. Man he is getting beat up this season. Still, I think this game turned on the banked in prayer at the end of the first half. We go in up 9 and I don't think they have the same spirit in the second half. Only other thought is....how is this the same FSU team that played in nonconference. They look like they have all the pieces to be a really good team, would love to see a game from earlier in the year to see what has changed. All I can think is a combination of effort and confidence gained during the UNC game has got them rolling.

dcar1985
01-21-2012, 06:32 PM
There were some defensive lapses, but what about relatively easy shots that should've been hit? Austin trying to do a fingerroll that gets blocked, Ryan shot faking the 3 but missing the 10' shot, and Seth missing a WIDE open 3. Not to mention the FT's. AND near the end Seth trying to throw an unnecessary alley oop to Mason. JUST GET THE POINTS!!! Give FSU their credit--they're good and improving. I would like to hear the gentle sounds of Len Elmore chok.........think good thoughts, think good thoughts..........NEXT.

On Seth's oop, if he didn't throw the oop he woulda took the floater, same difference in my eyes and most likely same result....I get your point though

HDB
01-21-2012, 06:32 PM
It makes no difference if Austin gets the call and hits a FT. FSU still has the same amount of time on the clock and still hits 3-pointer to win by 2.

I don't know that I agree with this. Know telling what happens if the foul is called at the end.

FellowTraveler
01-21-2012, 06:33 PM
Look again, Ryan Kelly is near the top of the key in front of the ball handler. Dawkins is just standing at the elbow, not coming over to help.

Start looking sooner. The ballhandler has a clear path, with Kelly in front but 25 feet away from him, once he gets past the screen. (Through no fault of his own) Kelly isn't in position to stop ball because of the distance between him and the ballhanders. Rivers and Dawkins hedge towards the middle, as they should. You can tell from the angle of their bodies as much as the position.

I'm not saying Dawkins played *good* defense on the play -- the television broadcast didn't show enough of what was going on at that end of the court for me to know. But he didn't fall asleep or just stand there, he was pretty clearly reacting to the danger in the center of the court. Once Seth got caught on the screen, there was a very good chance FSU was going to get a clean shot off. It came from the wing 'cause Dawkins hedged; had he not done so, it would've come from elsewhere.

Chris Randolph
01-21-2012, 06:34 PM
I stated earlier defense was our biggest problem and it most definitely was. FSU ran nice sets/screens to get their bigs open touches down low, mostly the whole 2nd half....

How in the world can Duke not get those same kind of touches???? I'm not talking for just today's game, I mean in general. Think about it: with the 3 pt shooters we have and how much defenses try to defend and sometimes over defend that, we could use our shooters to screen for the bigs to get them more looks (use the over aggression defenses use to help on shooters). You see it by other teams (cough cough FSU) but not so much Duke. I know our offense is pretty good this year and we score points but we have a viable strength inside that if we used it would only make our shooters that much better, maybe wear down their bigs/get them in foul trouble which in turn keeps them from being so effectively offensively

burnspbesq
01-21-2012, 06:34 PM
Man, there are some short memories around here.

This is exactly what ACC basketball is supposed to be. Every game is supposed to be difficult.

This was what those of us of a certain age grew up with. The only thing missing was having Thacker and Packer calling the game.

I hate that we lost, but that was a great game.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 06:35 PM
It makes no difference if Austin gets the call and hits a FT. FSU still has the same amount of time on the clock and still hits 3-pointer to win by 2.

if he is on the line (like he should have been) we have time to set up our defense...so that definitely changes the dynamic of the last 4 seconds.

Chicken Little
01-21-2012, 06:35 PM
FSU's turning into a monster team. They play the kind of defense we should be playing. Frustrating.

What's frustrating to me is that FSU will inevitably fall apart in a few weeks, barely sneak into the NCAA tournament, and end up getting bounced in the first round so badly that I'm left wondering how the hell we lost to them.

feldspar
01-21-2012, 06:35 PM
But he didn't fall asleep or just stand there, he was pretty clearly reacting to the danger in the center of the court.

Agreed. I don't know how you can fault Andre for trying to do two things at once: stay close enough to both stop penetration (which you would assume FSU is going to do with the score tied) and cover the open 3 point shooter.

He did the best he could given the situation.

DukeGirl4ever
01-21-2012, 06:35 PM
It makes no difference if Austin gets the call and hits a FT. FSU still has the same amount of time on the clock and still hits 3-pointer to win by 2.

I don't agree with this statement at all. It makes a world of difference because it is a different scenario.
If Austin makes the foul shot, it allows our defense to set or K to call a time out (if we had any - I don't know at that point).


If he misses, again, it's a scramble, but I would hope we'd have someone back and established on defense.

SCMatt33
01-21-2012, 06:35 PM
Duke just gave up 50 points in a half at home to an offense ranked 117th in the country. I'm struggling to see how that gets fixed. It's nothing new either. The individual defense is pretty mediocre, but the team defense is really bad. Guys get lost on simple screens. There are a ton of uncontested entry passes. Everything FSU got in the second half came on shots 6 feet and in, at the foul line, or at the 3 point line. Duke did nothing to make them take contested jumpers, layups moving away from the rim, or anything mid range. You could just say, "give credit to FSU," but when they aren't even a top 100 offense and you're at home, there is absolutely no excuse.

That's not to say that Duke didn't do anything good either. They did a great job being tough against them, they rebounded really well, and I saw some really improved decision making by some guys. That's actually did a lot of things well, which is probably the most troubling thing about this loss. They didn't commit too many turnovers, even though they missed some at the end, they shot 76% free throws. There's no one thing that you can say "that was an aberration," or "that's a simple fix."

I saw two problems. First was the defense in the 2nd half, which I already discussed. The second was shot selection inside the arc. Duke shot 43% from 3, yet, under 38% from 2. This team really settles for bad shots when they put the ball on the floor. No one besides Austin even tries to get to the rim unless they are completely uncontested. They're all worried about charging or getting the shot blocked. They don't want to play through contact. Even in the tough games at the beginning of the year, Duke did a great job getting to the foul line, but their FT rate in this game was only 27%, which is just bad. You can't just settle for an 8 foot or a pass to the perimeter every time. Even when the big guys have it, they have little options other than a pass out or a back to the basket move from 10 feet because its really rare to see someone cut to the rim on the back side.

I saw a play tonight where Ryan has the ball, back to the basket 10 feet out on the wing. Everyone, including Ryan, knows that he is at a disadvantage there, yet, he had to try and come across the lane for a baby hook that got blocked because the other four guys literally stood still.

I know I'm venting a little, but Duke did so many things well in this game, that's its a crime that they lost. They outplayed FSU in most facets of this game, but lost because they settled for tough shots and couldn't make FSU take tough shots.

trinity79
01-21-2012, 06:37 PM
our frontcourt is a little slow and unathletic. our backcourt is a year or 2 away from being awesome. As has been the case for at least 3 or 4 years now, we could really use what's known as a true POWER FORWARD. We'll be lucky to survive the second round of the NCAA tournament. Strickland's gone for the season, thus UNC's not going all the way this year, so that's not a worry. In closing, to paraphrase Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce: "From where the sun now stands, I shall post no more this season." Enjoy your Kentucky vs Syracuse final.

HDB
01-21-2012, 06:40 PM
our frontcourt is a little slow and unathletic. our backcourt is a year or 2 away from being awesome. As has been the case for at least 3 or 4 years now, we could really use what's known as a true POWER FORWARD. We'll be lucky to survive the second round of the NCAA tournament. Strickland's gone for the season, thus UNC's not going all the way this year, so that's not a worry. In closing, to paraphrase Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce: "From where the sun now stands, I shall post no more this season." Enjoy your Kentucky vs Syracuse final.

I don't agree that our frontcourt is slow and unathletic. Miles and Mason are as athletic as any big men in the country.

Chris Randolph
01-21-2012, 06:42 PM
Start looking sooner. The ballhandler has a clear path, with Kelly in front but 25 feet away from him, once he gets past the screen. (Through no fault of his own) Kelly isn't in position to stop ball because of the distance between him and the ballhanders. Rivers and Dawkins hedge towards the middle, as they should. You can tell from the angle of their bodies as much as the position.

I'm not saying Dawkins played *good* defense on the play -- the television broadcast didn't show enough of what was going on at that end of the court for me to know. But he didn't fall asleep or just stand there, he was pretty clearly reacting to the danger in the center of the court. Once Seth got caught on the screen, there was a very good chance FSU was going to get a clean shot off. It came from the wing 'cause Dawkins hedged; had he not done so, it would've come from elsewhere.

He has a clear path up until 30 feet from the basket and then Kelly is in position to stop the ball because he IS in front of the ball, haha. Dawkins has 2 feet in the lane, which is over comitted way too much. At the time he gets pass midcourt the guy isn't going to get to the rim in that amount of time with Kelly standing there and Mason trailing right behind his dominant hand. Dawkins can be in a help position, yes, but not all the way to the lane under those circumstances with a 3 point shooter standing on the wing.

Dukehky
01-21-2012, 06:42 PM
Ryan needs to quit being such a primary ball handler, it all goes to Hell when he stands at the top of the key and holds the ball for 10 seconds at a time. More Miles, and Mason needs to stop disappearing from the game.

Austin's 3 at the end of the first half should have counted, it didn't hit anything but the rim and then the bottom of the net, fact, i was sitting right at the basket during the game.

CameronDuke
01-21-2012, 06:42 PM
our frontcourt is a little slow and unathletic. our backcourt is a year or 2 away from being awesome. As has been the case for at least 3 or 4 years now, we could really use what's known as a true POWER FORWARD. We'll be lucky to survive the second round of the NCAA tournament. Strickland's gone for the season, thus UNC's not going all the way this year, so that's not a worry. In closing, to paraphrase Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce: "From where the sun now stands, I shall post no more this season." Enjoy your Kentucky vs Syracuse final.

I wouldn't write us off yet as a team that will lose in the 2nd round. This is the same team that won the Maui Invitational and beat Kansas. This is a team that is still 16 and 3. Please keep it in perspective.

By the way, Syracuse is currently losing by 15 to Notre Dame.

Bob Green
01-21-2012, 06:43 PM
The only thing missing was having Thacker and Packer calling the game.

Jim Thacker and the Pilot Life song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HznVEfzaEl8)...ah, you're stirring pleasant memories in my mind!

SCMatt33
01-21-2012, 06:43 PM
Forgot this in my earlier post, but I think we saw one huge silver lining in this game. We were able to give Austin the ball at the end of the game and he really made some good things happen. That last drive was ridiculously good. We knew going into the year that to be great, Austin had to be the man down the stretch. He had a couple of great drive beyond that last one and set up Seth for a really good look (even though he missed it) on one of the other possessions near the end.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 06:44 PM
I just really don't know where people get off with this kind of attitude. You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about.

It's one thing to say you didn't like a call or even that you disagreed with all of the calls. But to say three guys who are ACC veterans are poor at their jobs is just ludicrous, and it makes you look foolish.

If you don't think grabbing and holding is a foul, that's fine...but it is my least favorite part of the game. I see too much of that here in Big 10+2 games. These "veterans" missed a lot of that today. Sounds like you did as well.

jv001
01-21-2012, 06:45 PM
He has a clear path up until 30 feet from the basket and then Kelly is in position to stop the ball because he IS in front of the ball, haha. Dawkins has 2 feet in the lane, which is over comitted way too much. At the time he gets pass midcourt the guy isn't going to get to the rim in that amount of time with Kelly standing there and Mason trailing right behind his dominant hand. Dawkins can be in a help position, yes, but not all the way to the lane under those circumstances with a 3 point shooter standing on the wing.

This is the same way I see when replayed. Andre is in the lane with his eyes on the dribbler until the ball is passed. GoDuke!

MartyClark
01-21-2012, 06:45 PM
I thought we played hard. FSU is always tough. We don't match up very well against long, athletic, tough defensive teams like FSU. I agree with others, though, that we did pretty well offensively and our defense was lacking.

I'm puzzled by our low post offense. It seems that both Plumlees get the ball a little too far from the basket. I don't like them dribbling, attempting to back in when they are 10 or 12 feet from the basket. Why don't they re-post? Kick the ball out and move in to catch another pass when they are closer? Any thoughts appreciated.

Let's beat Maryland next game!

Chris Randolph
01-21-2012, 06:45 PM
Things I liked from the game:

Miles rebounding.
Rivers in general.
Dawkins offensive game.
Crazies were into it more, still could use a little more "oomph"

Things I didn't like from the game:
Losing.
Len Elmore.
Len Elmore.

BluDvlsN1
01-21-2012, 06:48 PM
Agreed. I don't know how you can fault Andre for trying to do two things at once: stay close enough to both stop penetration (which you would assume FSU is going to do with the score tied) and cover the open 3 point shooter.

He did the best he could given the situation.

My 1st knee jerk reaction was he missed an assignment, on replay he had to protect against penetration and then cover the three ball shooter as secondary!

Games are not won or lost on 1 play!

jv001
01-21-2012, 06:54 PM
My 1st knee jerk reaction was he missed an assignment, on replay he had to protect against penetration and then cover the three ball shooter as secondary!

Games are not won or lost on 1 play!

This game was not lost on that one play. Missed FTs, bad decisions on offense, foul trouble, and the biggest reason was the lack of defense in the 2nd half. We played hard, but did not play the smartest I've seen a Duke team play. Being a Christian, I know I'm not suppose to hate anyone, but I come awful close to hating Len Elmore. GoDuke!

mike88
01-21-2012, 06:56 PM
Man, there are some short memories around here.

This is exactly what ACC basketball is supposed to be. Every game is supposed to be difficult.

This was what those of us of a certain age grew up with. The only thing missing was having Thacker and Packer calling the game.

I hate that we lost, but that was a great game.

this game reminded me of the 84-85 season- strong experienced opponent, close throughout, coming down to who makes plays at the end- just what ACC basketball should be

How we play vs Md Wednesday will show us a lot about this team

WakeDevil
01-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Did Duke have a timeout at the end?

anon
01-21-2012, 07:00 PM
Did Duke have a timeout at the end?

No, we used it before the layup.

grossbus
01-21-2012, 07:01 PM
no, we did not

tbyers11
01-21-2012, 07:03 PM
Andre did need to be closer to Snaer. He got caught ball watching a bit. Loucks was never going to get as deep as he was and Ryan was in front of him to stop Loucks as well. My bigger problem is how Seth and Mason played defense in the backcourt. Seth has to get close enough to Loucks to not let him catch the ball with a running start. Make his first move be lateral. Mason also got caught on the wrong side when the FSU player set the pick on Curry. Play this better and Loucks is probably taking a running 30 footer instead of dishing. Not a defensive play that gets practiced much but should hopefully be instinctive.

Credit FSU on that play though. Loucks knew the time situation well. A lot of players shoot the ball with a second or two left on the clock.

As for the refs, I thought they called a fine game overall. They let a lot of contact go on drives to the basket. That favors FSU over us but they were consistent with it. However, James had a LOT of body contact on Rivers' game-tying shot. If Austin had missed that I would be screaming if he hadn't got sent to the line. Are the refs supposed to swallow the whistle because he made the layup in an end game situation?

Duvall
01-21-2012, 07:03 PM
I just really don't know where people get off with this kind of attitude. You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about.

It's one thing to say you didn't like a call or even that you disagreed with all of the calls. But to say three guys who are ACC veterans are poor at their jobs is just ludicrous, and it makes you look foolish.

Oh, I suspect this crew called this game exactly the way the league wanted it to be called.

OldSchool
01-21-2012, 07:03 PM
The end of the first half was killer for us. The sequence in which AR's 3-pointer was disallowed and then FSU hit the last-second three was deflating, so that instead of a 12-point lead at the half we go in up only 6 after having worked so hard in the first half against an FSU team that was playing tough.

As others have said, we aren't going to win very many games giving up 50 points in a half. Our big guys have improved quite a bit defensively over the last couple of years, but they are not quite there yet. It's not a lack of athleticism, our guys are very athletic, it's just recognizing things quicker and making our second and third help rotations faster.

And the perimeter guys can't just watch when the ball gets into the paint, they need to get in and dig at the ball from the weak side and make the help rotations too. Because our perimeter guys are not lock-down defenders, the team as a whole needs to recognize what is happening, anticipate the action and make the defensive rotations more quickly. Of course, which is more easily said than done.

One benefit of this game was another experience of having the team in a high-pressure situation late in the game. Hopefully they'll come out with the W next time they are in that situation.

anon
01-21-2012, 07:07 PM
One benefit of this game was another experience of having the team in a high-pressure situation late in the game. Hopefully they'll come out with the W next time they are in that situation.

Absolutely. I hate that we lost this game, but I thought the team looked more mature today, and hopefully they'll grow even more in the post-game.

Better now than in March.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 07:09 PM
Andre did need to be closer to Snaer. He got caught ball watching a bit. Loucks was never going to get as deep as he was and Ryan was in front of him to stop Loucks as well. My bigger problem is how Seth and Mason played defense in the backcourt. Seth has to get close enough to Loucks to not let him catch the ball with a running start. Make his first move be lateral. Mason also got caught on the wrong side when the FSU player set the pick on Curry. Play this better and Loucks is probably taking a running 30 footer instead of dishing. Not a defensive play that gets practiced much but should hopefully be instinctive.

Credit FSU on that play though. Loucks knew the time situation well. A lot of players shoot the ball with a second or two left on the clock.

As for the refs, I thought they called a fine game overall. They let a lot of contact go on drives to the basket. That favors FSU over us but they were consistent with it. However, James had a LOT of body contact on Rivers' game-tying shot. If Austin had missed that I would be screaming if he hadn't got sent to the line. Are the refs supposed to swallow the whistle because he made the layup in an end game situation?

No, they are not. They are supposed to make that call. #butithoughtdukegetsallthecalls

feldspar
01-21-2012, 07:12 PM
If you don't think grabbing and holding is a foul, that's fine...but it is my least favorite part of the game. I see too much of that here in Big 10+2 games. These "veterans" missed a lot of that today. Sounds like you did as well.

You sound like a typical fan who has no clue whatsoever about what basketball officiating is really all about.

loldevilz
01-21-2012, 07:13 PM
Man, there are some short memories around here.

This is exactly what ACC basketball is supposed to be. Every game is supposed to be difficult.

This was what those of us of a certain age grew up with. The only thing missing was having Thacker and Packer calling the game.

I hate that we lost, but that was a great game.

I agree. Its nice to have the ACC on the upswing even if that means a few more loses for Duke.

As for my thought:

With our bigs in foul trouble Hairston should've played. Instead Kelly and Mason played extremely soft down the stretch and it cost us the game. FSU just kept throwing the ball inside.

Quinn could've made a difference, but I'm not sure how big of a difference.

Austin was our best overall player today. He is starting to play like the star he was projected to be.

feldspar
01-21-2012, 07:16 PM
Are the refs supposed to swallow the whistle because he made the layup in an end game situation?

Once again, you have to understand the way college basketball has been called over the last 20 or so years. It's been dominated by the advantage/disadvantage philosophy. Yes, John Adams is trying to move away from that (rightfully so). Yes, it makes for a lot of physical contact. Yes, it can be maddening to try and decipher how the officials are trying to call the game.

These are three long-time ACC officials steeped in the traditions of advantage disadvantage. The contact on Austin on that last play didn't affect his shot. It went in perfectly clean. Of course you could make a valid argument that there was illegal contact on an airborne shooter. But it all comes down to officiating philosophy, and what I saw was an official making a no-call based on the fact that Austin got the shot up clean.

Greg_Newton
01-21-2012, 07:17 PM
If you don't think grabbing and holding is a foul, that's fine...but it is my least favorite part of the game. I see too much of that here in Big 10+2 games. These "veterans" missed a lot of that today. Sounds like you did as well.

Seriously. They allowed FSU to completely set the tone in the first ten minutes of the game, by letting them grab the dribbler with both hands whenever we put the ball on the floor. COMPLETELY changed the game.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 07:18 PM
You sound like a typical fan who has no clue whatsoever about what basketball officiating is really all about.

Yup, you got it. I will hang with my typical fans in my complete ignorance of basketball and let such a high and mighty atypical fan as yourself do your thing.

feldspar
01-21-2012, 07:20 PM
Yup, you got it. I will hang with my typical fans in my complete ignorance of basketball and let such a high and mighty atypical fan as yourself do your thing.

I didn't say ignorance of basketball. I said ignorance of officiating.

elvis14
01-21-2012, 07:23 PM
Always bummed after a loss. This was a tough, hard fought game where both teams did lots of things right. I thought there were a few instances in the flow of the game where we had a lead and an open shot to open up the game. We missed every time. Add that to our bigs having lots of fouls and having to play soft and two miracle buzzer beaters and we lose. Bummed.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 07:25 PM
I didn't say ignorance of basketball. I said ignorance of officiating.

They are the same thing, my friend.

Next play.

arnie
01-21-2012, 07:27 PM
Always bummed after a loss. This was a tough, hard fought game where both teams did lots of things right. I thought there were a few instances in the flow of the game where we had a lead and an open shot to open up the game. We missed every time. Add that to our bigs having lots of fouls and having to play soft and two miracle buzzer beaters and we lose. Bummed.

At the game and totally amazed at the lack of class by the FSU players - thought the one player (after taking off his shirt) was going into the student section.

Also, how bad is Cook's injury? Assume he's hurt since he didn't play but a minute.

feldspar
01-21-2012, 07:32 PM
At the game and totally amazed at the lack of class by the FSU players - thought the one player (after taking off his shirt) was going into the student section.



Well, when you spend the whole game taking a verbal beating from the student section, you should be allowed to give a little back after sticking a dagger in their hearts.

calltheobvious
01-21-2012, 07:33 PM
They are the same thing, my friend.

Next play.

Yeah, this is just false, and takes away from your credibility on the "basketball" side of things.

Look, if you want to talk plays, then let's rock. But throwing out blanket stuff without referencing lots of specific plays makes your criticisms of both the game officials and Feldspar ring pretty hollow.

And if you're going to bring up plays, let's be intellectually honest about the exercise and not limit the list to plays that went against your (and my) team.

jipops
01-21-2012, 07:34 PM
I wonder what the percentage of offensive possesions FSU scored on in the 2nd half. It had to be close to 90%. I had no problems with how our offense performed against such a vaunted defense. But that had to be the poorest showing on defense we have seen so far, and there have been some poor performances. The final sequence summed up the game perfectly. When we needed a stop we couldn't get one. FSU is very good and the better team won today. As of right now we are not the 2nd best team in the ACC, maybe not even the 3rd best.

The offense looks really good overall. The D has a long long way to go.

arnie
01-21-2012, 07:36 PM
Well, when you spend the whole game taking a verbal beating from the student section, you should be allowed to give a little back after sticking a dagger in their hearts.

But you will not see a K coached team do that.

Greg_Newton
01-21-2012, 07:37 PM
Well, when you spend the whole game taking a verbal beating from the student section, you should be allowed to give a little back after sticking a dagger in their hearts.

Are you Karl Hess, or Len Elmore?

Maybe sit this one out for a couple of hours instead of trying to incite posters who are already upset at a loss.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-21-2012, 07:43 PM
Well, when you spend the whole game taking a verbal beating from the student section, you should be allowed to give a little back after sticking a dagger in their hearts.

Put yourself in their shoes after dealing with the crazies all afternoon.......

elvis14
01-21-2012, 07:44 PM
Hey guys, could we use this forum to discuss the game and minimize the bickering back and forth. It's bad enough we lost, we don't need to impersonate IC and make things worse. "Can't we call just get along?"

Hope I'm not being out of line but I've been reading DBR for over 10 years and I've seen us do better.

calltheobvious
01-21-2012, 07:45 PM
Are you Karl Hess, or Len Elmore?

Maybe sit this one out for a couple of hours instead of trying to incite posters who are already upset at a loss.

Yeah, heaven forbid anyone try to provide some perspective as we're salving our wounds with big scoops of smug.

Whoever wrote that we'd never see a K-coached player do that is right. I'd go a step further and say that you'll also never hear K talking about how much more righteous his kids are than anyone else's. Let's follow that lead, mkay?

PSurprise
01-21-2012, 07:47 PM
One of the things that I see (or don't see) is that team really doesn't force a lot of turnovers. There was a stretch in the 2nd half where we had a steal and an over-and-back and converted on those, but I think this team is different from years past because it seems that we don't get many fast break points from turnovers. In years past, while Jon Sheyer was not the quickest, he had long arms, Nolan Smith WAS quick, and had the ability to disrupt passes in the backcourt. Whether it's a lack of quickness, positioning, or just a lack of "length", I think that the lack of turnovers and easy fast-break points hampers our defense. I'm not sure how to correct (if it's even correctable), but I think this has a fairly significant impact on the defensive end.

PSurprise
01-21-2012, 07:50 PM
I agree with some posters that I thought the officials did a pretty good job (for a change). I'm glad they were not the ones that decided the game at the end as we have seen in the past.

elvis14
01-21-2012, 07:51 PM
I agree with some posters that I thought the officials did a pretty good job (for a change). I'm glad they were not the ones that decided the game at the end as we have seen in the past.

Although I agree with what you've said I will say that not making a call that should have been made and/or was earned decides a game just as much as making a call decides a game.

CoachJ10
01-21-2012, 07:53 PM
Yeah, this is just false, and takes away from your credibility on the "basketball" side of things.

Look, if you want to talk plays, then let's rock. But throwing out blanket stuff without referencing lots of specific plays makes your criticisms of both the game officials and Feldspar ring pretty hollow.

And if you're going to bring up plays, let's be intellectually honest about the exercise and not limit the list to plays that went against your (and my) team.

You either watched the game and saw the grabbing and holding or you didn't. I can't help the latter. It is only part of the reason we lost today (poor perimeter defense in particular), but a component nonetheless.

calltheobvious
01-21-2012, 07:54 PM
Although I agree with what you've said I will say that not making a call that should have been made and/or was earned decides a game just as much as making a call decides a game.

Fun with framing. +1

MCFinARL
01-21-2012, 07:57 PM
Forgot this in my earlier post, but I think we saw one huge silver lining in this game. We were able to give Austin the ball at the end of the game and he really made some good things happen. That last drive was ridiculously good. We knew going into the year that to be great, Austin had to be the man down the stretch. He had a couple of great drive beyond that last one and set up Seth for a really good look (even though he missed it) on one of the other possessions near the end.

Yes--but he is still a work in progress. His decision to drive to the basket when well covered late in the second half, which led to what Mike Patrick called (correctly, I think) the first fast break basket by FSU in the game, was a key turning point in the wrong direction. So, lots of good, but still some things to work on.


Andre did need to be closer to Snaer. He got caught ball watching a bit. Loucks was never going to get as deep as he was and Ryan was in front of him to stop Loucks as well. My bigger problem is how Seth and Mason played defense in the backcourt. Seth has to get close enough to Loucks to not let him catch the ball with a running start. Make his first move be lateral. Mason also got caught on the wrong side when the FSU player set the pick on Curry. Play this better and Loucks is probably taking a running 30 footer instead of dishing. Not a defensive play that gets practiced much but should hopefully be instinctive.



On the Andre call, I lean toward the "not his fault" side, especially given how quickly everything developed--but I think you have identified the key problem here--Duke didn't do enough to slow down FSU as they were moving up court. I'm no expert, but given there were just under 5 seconds left, would it have been smarter to keep three people back to slow the progress of the ball and send two to the other end of the court, rather than the other way around? I can see how that strategy presents its own risks, so I'd like to hear what others with more knowledge of defensive strategy think about this--

feldspar
01-21-2012, 08:02 PM
Maybe sit this one out for a couple of hours instead of trying to incite posters who are already upset at a loss.

I'm not trying to incite anything. Just pointing out the "what do you expect" aspect of the situation.

MCFinARL
01-21-2012, 08:02 PM
I agree with some posters that I thought the officials did a pretty good job (for a change). I'm glad they were not the ones that decided the game at the end as we have seen in the past.

Yes--although if Duke had won, I'm pretty sure we would be hearing a lot about how calling a block instead of a charge when Ryan Kelly went to the line near the end of the game determined the outcome. Right after that, the refs did not call a jump ball when Seth tied up the FSU player, determining that FSU had called a timeout first--another call that could have gone the other way, although it probably balanced the block call.

Not criticizing the refs overall--I can't even begin to imagine how hard it is to call a game in live action. Just saying, if you want to argue that the refs have decided a close game, you can usually find a way to argue that they did (and people whose teams lose to Duke pretty much always do).

calltheobvious
01-21-2012, 08:03 PM
You either watched the game and saw the grabbing and holding or you didn't. I can't help the latter. It is only part of the reason we lost today (poor perimeter defense in particular), but a component nonetheless.

I saw lots of things. Liked some of 'em, disliked others. I will reiterate my earlier point: if you want to talk about the officiating, cite plays. Otherwise, "grabbing and holding" and "they're just bad at their jobs" simply read like the grousing of frustrated, strongly biased fans.

CinANC
01-21-2012, 08:05 PM
This game and its outcome remind me of the 1998 Alaska Shootout championship game with Cincinnati... a similar games in several respects – UC's strengths and style of play reminds me of FSU at this point this season (though I greatly disliked UC and do not feel that way about FSU), and Duke's 98-99 team profile was similar to this year's. But mostly that game comes to mind because it also left the crowed gasping at an improbable finish when Kenyon Martin threw a perfect full court pass (home run play) to Melvin Levett for a dunk with one second left. In that loss Trajan Langdon was the Duke player who failed to front Levett and became a helpless bystander. (Trajan and Andre: more similarities in player strengths and weaknesses.) That too was a tough loss, especially for Trajan in his hometown arena filled with hometown fans.

Devilsfan
01-21-2012, 08:06 PM
This is a team with a lot of individuals exhibiting a lot of talent. Maybe it's me but I don't see the same chemistry as teams in the past. Were winning on talent. Individuals playing very hard but not always together. I don't see the hugs, high fives, etc. that I've seen in the past. I've watched a player get dinged and shun teammates that came over to help him. I see players trying to win games by themselves instead of relying on teammates for help. Maybe it's the changes in the staff or maybe it's the recruits or maybe it's that we are very young but I would rather see a team like two years ago playing together. FSU is a very good team but we could have put them away in the first half. Maybe we learn from this game and move on. Go Devils.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-21-2012, 08:07 PM
I saw lots of things. Liked some of 'em, disliked others. I will reiterate my earlier point: if you want to talk about the officiating, cite plays. Otherwise, "grabbing and holding" and "they're just bad at their jobs" simply read like the grousing of frustrated, strongly biased fans.

I remember thinking to myself that Seminole and Tar Heel fans must hate the refs for the calls in the first half. I thought we caught a couple of breaks. I remember one play, specifically, where Seth body checked a guy on a drive with no call.

We didn't lose because of the refs. We lost because our defense stunk.

jbmaverick
01-21-2012, 08:08 PM
Oh well, at least we didn't lose by 33...

I guess the moral of this whole story is: Don't play Florida State on Saturday afternoon. :)

tbyers11
01-21-2012, 08:11 PM
Once again, you have to understand the way college basketball has been called over the last 20 or so years. It's been dominated by the advantage/disadvantage philosophy. Yes, John Adams is trying to move away from that (rightfully so). Yes, it makes for a lot of physical contact. Yes, it can be maddening to try and decipher how the officials are trying to call the game.

These are three long-time ACC officials steeped in the traditions of advantage disadvantage. The contact on Austin on that last play didn't affect his shot. It went in perfectly clean. Of course you could make a valid argument that there was illegal contact on an airborne shooter. But it all comes down to officiating philosophy, and what I saw was an official making a no-call based on the fact that Austin got the shot up clean.

I fully understand the advantage/disadvantage concept having played soccer my entire life. I haven't memorized the rule book and defer to your experience as a ref but i didn't think this concept was in the rules and therefore shouldn't be called as such. If this how officials are supposed to call the game shouldn't it be stated this way for all to know?

James' contact did not bother Austin's arms, but to say that the body contact did not affect his shot and how he shot it seems like a totally incorrect statement. I always thought a body foul on a shooter shooting the ball was still a foul. It definitely seems like a case of (as you say) illegal contact on an airborne shooter to me. Thanks for explaining how the referee may have interpreted this as not a foul

_Gary
01-21-2012, 08:13 PM
50 points in the 2nd half. Is there really a whole lot more to say than that? And a vast majority of those (minus the buzzer 3 for the win) were either layups/dunks or shots inside 5 feet. I mean we got brutalized by some pretty decent half court offense. Could we have played much better defensively? Sure. But my hat is off to FSU in that one area. They were very methodical at times and kinda carved us up. Having said that, we still played well enough offensively to make them have to hit some pretty crazy and/or difficult shots to pull off the upset.

I can see both sides of the Andre issue at the end. But I think he has to stay a step closer to a shooter that's clearly spotting up in the corner. I don't believe the dribbler had anything close to a clear path so I don't buy that Dre had to hedge as far away from the shooter as he did. Don't get me wrong. I don't think it was a grevious miscalculation or anything like that. I just would have thought the better position would have been to anticipate a pass to the corner and be a step closer so the shooter didn't get such a wide open look. But it is what it is and this loss really shouldn't be laid on any one player. Not by a long shot. There was plenty of defensive blame to go around for the entire 2nd half, imho. You just can't give up 50 points, especially when the majority of them were layups/dunks or close in shots, and expect to win against a quality ACC team.

jbmaverick
01-21-2012, 08:15 PM
I remember thinking to myself that Seminole and Tar Heel fans must hate the refs for the calls in the first half. I thought we caught a couple of breaks. I remember one play, specifically, where Seth body checked a guy on a drive with no call.

We didn't lose because of the refs. We lost because our defense stunk.

A very smart coach once told his players, "To play well enough to win, you have to play well enough to overcome bad officiating." There's just never any point in criticizing the refs, as it's never going to change a single call they made during a game. I'm pretty sure Kentucky is still complaining about "the Laettner stomp"...but even after 20 years of complaining, Duke's still the winner of that game.

jbmaverick
01-21-2012, 08:18 PM
50 points in the 2nd half. Is there really a whole lot more to say than that? And a vast majority of those (minus the buzzer 3 for the win) were either layups/dunks or shots inside 5 feet. I mean we got brutalized by some pretty decent half court offense. Could we have played much better defensively? Sure. But my hat is off to FSU in that one area. They were very methodical at times and kinda carved us up. Having said that, we still played well enough offensively to make them have to hit some pretty crazy and/or difficult shots to pull off the upset.

I can see both sides of the Andre issue at the end. But I think he has to stay a step closer to a shooter that's clearly spotting up in the corner. I don't believe the dribbler had anything close to a clear path so I don't buy that Dre had to hedge as far away from the shooter as he did. Don't get me wrong. I don't think it was a grevious miscalculation or anything like that. I just would have thought the better position would have been to anticipate a pass to the corner and be a step closer so the shooter didn't get such a wide open look. But it is what it is and this loss really shouldn't be laid on any one player. Not by a long shot. There was plenty of defensive blame to go around for the entire 2nd half, imho. You just can't give up 50 points, especially when the majority of them were layups/dunks or close in shots, and expect to win against a quality ACC team.

You can blame Andre for very poor defense on that last shot, but it's the whole team's fault that they were in a position where that last shot even mattered. He didn't lose the game by himself - he had plenty of help.

SMO
01-21-2012, 08:19 PM
But you will not see a K coached team do that.

Feldspar will quickly point out that coach K should in fact allow his players to do so. It's one of the shortcomings K has demonstrated during Feldspar's many years of watching college hoops.

Yes, sarcasm poking fun at Feldspar's typical defense of anything that didn't go Duke's way. A guy has to differentiate himself somehow I suppose.

DukieInBrasil
01-21-2012, 08:21 PM
this loss can entirely be attributed to lack of leadership. No one wanted to step up and take charge in the final 5 minutes. Ryan Kelly continues to surprise me with his lack of clutchness, making terrible turn overs in the closing minutes when he is in there specifically b/c he's reputed to be good withe ball. Missing a key FT late hurt too. We missed several FTs late in the game.

Devilsfan
01-21-2012, 08:27 PM
Maybe the lack of chemistry I see is actually a lack of leadership. When a new recruit came in he was partly controlled by the teams leaders. He didn't just walk right in and start without proving himself to not only the coaches but the other members on the team. Earn your playing time used to be the rule.

lotusland
01-21-2012, 08:38 PM
50 points in the 2nd half. Is there really a whole lot more to say than that? And a vast majority of those (minus the buzzer 3 for the win) were either layups/dunks or shots inside 5 feet. I mean we got brutalized by some pretty decent half court offense. Could we have played much better defensively? Sure. But my hat is off to FSU in that one area. They were very methodical at times and kinda carved us up. Having said that, we still played well enough offensively to make them have to hit some pretty crazy and/or difficult shots to pull off the upset.



Watching the game I didn't think the 2nd half defense was horrible but 50 pts is a lot to give up to FSU so I'm reconsidering that. I thought in general we played a soft man to man on the perimeter which seemed intentional. I think it's a reasonable strategy given that our guards have a hard time staying in front of their man. Obviously we need to do better but I don't think this team is capable of pressuring and denying the ball or disrupting the opponent without giving up a lot of lay ups. A sag or soft man to man D is probably our best option even though it is not typical Duke D.

lotusland
01-21-2012, 08:41 PM
Maybe the lack of chemistry I see is actually a lack of leadership. When a new recruit came in he was partly controlled by the teams leaders. He didn't just walk right in and start without proving himself to not only the coaches but the other members on the team. Earn your playing time used to be the rule.

I'd say AR has earned his PT same as Kyrie last year.

SCMatt33
01-21-2012, 08:41 PM
Yes--but he is still a work in progress. His decision to drive to the basket when well covered late in the second half, which led to what Mike Patrick called (correctly, I think) the first fast break basket by FSU in the game, was a key turning point in the wrong direction. So, lots of good, but still some things to work on.

He still had a very good half. This also kind of feeds into what I said in my post before the one you quoted. Besides Austin, everyone is suddenly afraid to turn it over. We had 10 turnovers in the game, so its not like we had too much of a problem in that area. Instead, Duke ended up taking a ton of low percentage two point shots. I'll take that turnover, plus all the great drives over a bunch of possessions where you settle for a mediocre shot but don't get any turnovers.

jv001
01-21-2012, 08:41 PM
We scored 73 points on the best defense in the ACC(used to say that about Duke). We normally score around 81-82 pts per game. So our offense was not all that bad. Defense is the reason for this defeat. Way too many layups and dunks and I think our poor defense is more mental than a lack of physical ability. Bad defense is what is keeping this team from being one of the best teams we've had. Can't wait for tommy's defense breakdown for this one. GoDuke!

Kewlswim
01-21-2012, 08:45 PM
Hi,

I think the Blue Devils learned a lot from the game. I think they will be better for having played it. I think streaks are made to be broken. Here's to starting a new home winning streak! Lastly, I don't think the Devils played badly, I think FSU played really well. Let's congratulate the winners of this match, there is a lot of ball left to be played.

GO DUKE!!

Mr.Analogy
01-21-2012, 08:48 PM
this loss can entirely be attributed to lack of leadership. No one wanted to step up and take charge in the final 5 minutes. Ryan Kelly continues to surprise me with his lack of clutchness, making terrible turn overs in the closing minutes when he is in there specifically b/c he's reputed to be good withe ball. Missing a key FT late hurt too. We missed several FTs late in the game.

It would have been great to have Kyle and Nolan out there tonight.

rthomas
01-21-2012, 08:52 PM
Hi,

I think the Blue Devils learned a lot from the game. I think they will be better for having played it. I think streaks are made to be broken. Here's to starting a new home winning streak! Lastly, I don't think the Devils played badly, I think FSU played really well. Let's congratulate the winners of this match, there is a lot of ball left to be played.

GO DUKE!!

I agree. This was a game where they really had to play physical and they did. I was pretty impressed with both teams today.

Bob Green
01-21-2012, 08:57 PM
It would have been great to have Kyle and Nolan out there tonight.

But it is college basketball and players graduate and move on. I would have liked to have Billy King down the stretch but he is busy being a General Manager in the NBA. We have the requsite tools on this team...16-3 ain't shabby.

duke09hms
01-21-2012, 09:02 PM
Hi,

I think the Blue Devils learned a lot from the game. I think they will be better for having played it. I think streaks are made to be broken. Here's to starting a new home winning streak! Lastly, I don't think the Devils played badly, I think FSU played really well. Let's congratulate the winners of this match, there is a lot of ball left to be played.

GO DUKE!!

Agree except, do you REALLY think we didn't play badly? Our defense was atrocious. Our defense was ranked 60th coming into the FSU game and after getting carved up by the 110th ranked offense, it will only drop. 50pts in the 2nd half to FSU is unbelievable. This year's defense may be historically bad for Duke, as in one of the worst of coach K's career. Since 2003, our defense has been at worst 20th in 2009 (www.kenpom.com).

For a long time, I was an advocate of starting Cook at PG based on his offensive play-creating abilities. Honestly, right now I don't care about offense given it's our defense that's been costing us games. And it's not just "one bad game" folks, this is a season-long pattern.

Since we've been grinding out ugly wins for a while now, I was hopeful that this would be like 2010, except that team featured consistently strong defense day-in and day-out except for some true aberrations (GTown and NC State).

The good news is that there's still "time." The bad news is there's only 12 games left in the regular season. Maybe we can be like the NE Patriots and score ourselves deep into the postseason.

sagegrouse
01-21-2012, 09:05 PM
It would have been great to have Kyle and Nolan out there tonight.

WRT the absence of senior leadership (All-Americans, by the way): this team is a work in progress. We have eight players that at times have played brilliantly -- and each one at times has disappeared. We made some mistakes at the end, but our players on the floor were not shrinking violets and made some really good plays as well -- esp., Austin, Seth, and Dre.

I thought FSU was stronger, and we wore down a bit in the second half.

I credit FSU for our poor shooting overall -- but we'll have many better days -- even against this team when we play again.

While I saw some defensive lapses in the second half, I give them credit for knocking down a high percentage of hard shots.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot was that piece of junk by Snaer at the end of the first half? I saw two ridiculous shots made last March by Arizona, and I hope we have had our quota of lucky tosses by opponents for this year.

sagegrouse

stixof96
01-21-2012, 09:05 PM
This team better learn how to go in for the kill. Anytime you are competing at a high level you must know how to put your competitor away when the opportunity presents itself. I don't think this team has a clue how to do that. Coach K should make them watch Bobby Hurley films for 12 hours non-stop. Maybe they will get it then. This team is soft, even though they played physical today at times, they must learn how to nail the coffin shut. Very disappointed today.

ncexnyc
01-21-2012, 09:09 PM
It would seem that many of you had the mute button turned on because Elmore was doing the game. Those of us who left the sound on heard the stats that were mentioned concerning FSU's offensive output the past few games. They've definitely righted the ship and aren't playing like a team that's 100+ in the nation.

Our defense was outstanding in the 1st half, the 2nd not so good. I'll chalk that up to fatigue from playing so hard in the 1st half. We lost to a very good team and it took a buzzer beater to do it. What's the big deal?

Andre has really picked up his game. To me that's a continuing positive. Is he a defensive stud? No, he isn't, but we've known all along that isn't his strong suit. As long as he continues to score and be aggressive taking the ball to the hoop, both things he's done, then I'm happy.

Austin continues to show why he was so highly rated coming out of high school. Sure he'll make a bad play every now and then, but cut the kid some slack as he's just a freshman.

Tyler had a solid game. No, he's not the most gifted player on the court, but he sure got his hands on a number of balls and made a pest of himself, along with hitting several shots.

Quinn's knee must really be hurting as he barely sniffed the court.

Ryan continued his aggressive play. Unfortunately he got several bad bounces, but I do like the effort. I'd rather see a kid make a bad play because they are trying than for them to fade away, like he did in our losses to OSU and Temple.

Miles had another nice game as did Mason. Hey, they both hit free throws, what more do you want?

Seth's shooting touch was a tad off today. These things do happen, especially against a team like FSU.

Would I have loved a win? Sure, but at least we got to see one heck of a game. Enjoy it for what it was.

jv001
01-21-2012, 09:10 PM
I think we'll see how this loss will affect us on Wednesday night against a not so good Maryland team. If we play as hard as we did today and tighten up the defense, we'll win. If we don't come out and play as team, then we're in trouble. Playing Maryland on the road is tough and with their rabid fans acting like fools our guys will have to be tough. Let's hope we shake off this defeat and come out fired up. GoDuke!

MCFinARL
01-21-2012, 09:14 PM
He still had a very good half. This also kind of feeds into what I said in my post before the one you quoted. Besides Austin, everyone is suddenly afraid to turn it over. We had 10 turnovers in the game, so its not like we had too much of a problem in that area. Instead, Duke ended up taking a ton of low percentage two point shots. I'll take that turnover, plus all the great drives over a bunch of possessions where you settle for a mediocre shot but don't get any turnovers.

Well, yeah, that is a fair point.

OldSchool
01-21-2012, 09:19 PM
This is a team with a lot of individuals exhibiting a lot of talent. Maybe it's me but I don't see the same chemistry as teams in the past. Were winning on talent. Individuals playing very hard but not always together. I don't see the hugs, high fives, etc. that I've seen in the past. I've watched a player get dinged and shun teammates that came over to help him. I see players trying to win games by themselves instead of relying on teammates for help. Maybe it's the changes in the staff or maybe it's the recruits or maybe it's that we are very young but I would rather see a team like two years ago playing together. FSU is a very good team but we could have put them away in the first half. Maybe we learn from this game and move on. Go Devils.

We DO have a lot of talent as individuals.

There is another thread in which someone was complaining about how he or she isn't very excited about this team. I for one AM excited about this team because there is so much talent and they aren't anywhere near what their ceiling is as a basketball team.

I have been waiting years for such a collection of athletic, big and experienced front line players. To my eyes, they have progressed light years from where they were a couple of years ago. But the collection of parts is nowhere near as good as they could be as a collective sum.

I don't see it as lack of athleticism or lack of lateral quickness or lack of chemistry or lack of leadership. I see it as not-yet-fully-developed basketball IQ.

Some players see the court and see the game and get it all very quickly. Example, Kyrie Irving. Others get better year over year as they understand the game better and start to anticipate the action based on accumulated experience. Example, Nolan Smith's improvement each year during his college career. Nolan was talented and athletic when he stepped on the floor as a freshman - what he improved mostly during his career was basketball IQ.

Defensively, our guys need to see the game better and be mentally sharper. We could be an outstanding defensive team, certainly in the paint, with the players we have. They simply haven't developed to their potential.

Offensively, our ceiling is much, much higher than they have progressed to so far. Take Austin and Mason (or even Austin and Miles) as an example. Those two guys could be a devastating combination in the pick-and-roll as their court vision and basketball IQ improve. Once Austin turns the corner on the hedger and forces the defense to react, he potentially has a tremendous weapon in Mason slipping the screen not to mention our great shooters whose defender might leave them open or who might come into the post for a dish. But except for the rare prodigy like Kyrie, it just takes time to develop that ability and court vision even for a great athlete like Mason and a tremendous talent like Austin. Stockton-Malone wasn't built in a day.

Maybe this team will get better or maybe they'll plateau. If they do get better, we could be quite a force in March.

NYC Duke Fan
01-21-2012, 09:28 PM
Is it just possible that we are not as good as we all think we are ?

We have a good season because we have a great coach but we are not a championship team....is that horrible no it is not , but as Duke fans we expect only the very, very best !!

jv001
01-21-2012, 09:32 PM
We DO have a lot of talent as individuals.

There is another thread in which someone was complaining about how he or she isn't very excited about this team. I for one AM excited about this team because there is so much talent and they aren't anywhere near what their ceiling is as a basketball team.

I have been waiting years for such a collection of athletic, big and experienced front line players. To my eyes, they have progressed light years from where they were a couple of years ago. But the collection of parts is nowhere near as good as they could be as a collective sum.

I don't see it as lack of athleticism or lack of lateral quickness or lack of chemistry or lack of leadership. I see it as not-yet-fully-developed basketball IQ.

Some players see the court and see the game and get it all very quickly. Example, Kyrie Irving. Others get better year over year as they understand the game better and start to anticipate the action based on accumulated experience. Example, Nolan Smith's improvement each year during his college career. Nolan was talented and athletic when he stepped on the floor as a freshman - what he improved mostly during his career was basketball IQ.

Defensively, our guys need to see the game better and be mentally sharper. We could be an outstanding defensive team, certainly in the paint, with the players we have. They simply haven't developed to their potential.

Offensively, our ceiling is much, much higher than they have progressed to so far. Take Austin and Mason (or even Austin and Miles) as an example. Those two guys could be a devastating combination in the pick-and-roll as their court vision and basketball IQ improve. Once Austin turns the corner on the hedger and forces the defense to react, he potentially has a tremendous weapon in Mason slipping the screen not to mention our great shooters whose defender might leave them open or who might come into the post for a dish. But except for the rare prodigy like Kyrie, it just takes time to develop that ability and court vision even for a great athlete like Mason and a tremendous talent like Austin. Stockton-Malone wasn't built in a day.

Maybe this team will get better or maybe they'll plateau. If they do get better, we could be quite a force in March.

As I said in a previous post, it's mostly a mental thing with this team The talent is there but the team concept is not. However it could get there sooner than we think. Your comment on the big guys sums it up best for me. There have been years I wished we had one good big player. Now we have 3 who can on any given night/day be MOTM. GoDuke!

mkline09
01-21-2012, 09:40 PM
Not much I can say other than the defense isn't good. It was too easy for FSU to get the ball into the interior either off the dribble or with passes. Once Duke's bigs got in foul trouble they played passively on defense. And you can't allow a team to shoot great than 50 percent while you shoot only 39 percent and expect to win many games.

I thought Duke missed Quinn Cook tonight too.

FerryFor50
01-21-2012, 09:52 PM
I actually would have liked to see Hairston in there some to give some more physicality and save some fouls on the Plumlees. Good effort overall though. FSU finally stopped settling for long perimeter shots and worked it inside more. Bernard James woke up in the 2nd half, unfortunately. I feel like Duke needs to play more inside-out with Mason and the perimeter shooters. That seems to get the best shot opportunities.

NSDukeFan
01-21-2012, 10:11 PM
But it is college basketball and players graduate and move on. I would have liked to have Billy King down the stretch but he is busy being a General Manager in the NBA. We have the requsite tools on this team...16-3 ain't shabby.

I think Billy King has probably lost a bit of quickness over the last few years, and am not sure he would have helped that much. :)

I thought the first half was one of the best defensive halves the team has played all year and I was very happy with the toughness the team showed (mostly offensively) all game. There was a lot of contact (that's how FSU plays and they are also very good positionally, is that a word?) but I though Duke's guys played through it and played strong with the ball. Kelly made a few mistakes trying to take it in, but agree with the poster earlier who commented that it is better to make errors trying to make something happen than shying away from contact. I thought Curry had a tough shooting game, but it never changed the way he played and I thought he was very good defensively.

That was a very exciting game and a great learning experience for this team. I think it was also a good demonstration of how you play intense defense and I hope the team learns from it, so they can keep improving defensively and have 40 good minutes on D and not just one half.

UrinalCake
01-21-2012, 10:24 PM
Agree that our defense was excellent in the first half. ESPN put up some made up "toughness stats" graphic that looked at rebounds, second chance points, and points in the paint, and we were winning or even in those three areas. That three at the buzzer was a killer, it was eerily reminiscent of the 30 footer Derrick Williams hit last year with Kelly right in his face to also leave us up by only 6.

Foul trouble hurt us in the second half as both Plumlees finished with 4. I think they try for blocks at times when they might be better off staying in good position and then securing the rebound, but at any rate they had to back off because of the fouls. And our free throw shooting which had been excellent most of the game disappeared in the last 4-5 minutes.

Anyone else notice that Miles got absolutely hammered from behind on that dunk attempt? They even showed the replay (which they usually don't do whenever Duke gets hosed by a call) and all Elmore could say is that Miles wasn't being strong with the ball or some crap like that. I mean the defender slammed his arm down over Miles forearms, what do you expect? I will give Miles credit though, shortly afterward he got the ball in close and laid it in while getting fouled. Most of the time he goes for the impossible one-handed slam that has no chance, but this time he stayed in control.

ChicagoHeel
01-21-2012, 10:26 PM
I don't think it was that bad of a loss, although that may be because my basis of comparison is a 33-point thrashing. True, giving up 50 second half points at home is not good, but I thought FSU was also doing a great job knocking down shots. I thought you guys looked very very solid on the offensive end- so many different guys knocking down shots. Most teams would have folded when you went up by 8 or 9 late. FSU is playing with a ton of confidence and is there anythhing more critical in college basketball? Sometimes you just catch a team at the wrong time.

Kfanarmy
01-21-2012, 10:31 PM
I just really don't know where people get off with this kind of attitude. You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about.

It's one thing to say you didn't like a call or even that you disagreed with all of the calls. But to say three guys who are ACC veterans are poor at their jobs is just ludicrous, and it makes you look foolish. I thought the game was pretty evenly officiated...some missed calls both ways. I thought Duke got away with a couple of charges, and FSU got away with a multitude of moving screens, including on the final play...a generally decent job, but geez feldspar you don't allow anyone to make a comment about the officials without acting like no one else knows anything about the rules but yourself,,,know you must have officiated once somewhere but they ain't perfect; you don't need to challenge everyone who calls out the quality of officiating. Let people vent once in a while.

ChrisP
01-21-2012, 10:33 PM
Clearly, this is not (well, not yet anyway) a great Duke team. We have plenty of talent, but as a previous poster mentioned, we don't always play with a high basketball IQ. It seems that guys are still settling in to their roles and I still see a lack of leadership. So, yes, we have problems.

But let's keep things in perspective here: There were a bunch of really close games for top 25 teams today - along with several upsets. #1 Syracuse, who many pundits seem to think will waltz to the Final Four and possibly the NC, lost to a 12-8 Notre Dame team. #3 Baylor lost - at home - to Mizzou. Granted, Missouri is currently ranked 5th in the nation, but still. #2 Kentucky struggled - at Rupp - to beat a not-very-good 'Bama team by 6 points. #7 Kansas beat a pretty mediocre TX team by only 3 points. Tennessee, a team with a LOSING record, beat #11 UConn.

And of course, #4 Duke, despite letting their opponent shoot nearly 67% - SIXTY FREAKING SEVEN!!! - in the second half, including 80% on 4-5 three pointers, lost on a last-second shot to a very good, tough, talented, and very big FSU team. And, don't even get me started on that ridiculous prayer of a 3 by Snaer at the end of the first half. Or Austin's seemingly legal 3 right before that was disallowed. Or the terrific defense by Curry late in the game that resulted in a clear held ball situation that would have given it back to Duke with a chance to regain the lead (if the ref hadn't wimped out and allowed the FSU player to get a time out). Or the fact that an FSU player basically put a choke hold on Ryan as they scrambled for a loose ball but wasn't called for a foul.

I HATE that we lost and I really hate losing to FSU but they played extremely well today and deserved to win. We don't have much margin for error and we made lots of mistakes toward the end of the game and it cost us. So, it sucks but considering what happened to a lot of other top teams today, I can deal with it and will devote my energy to hoping that Duke continues to grow and improve.

Kfanarmy
01-21-2012, 10:37 PM
It makes no difference if Austin gets the call and hits a FT. FSU still has the same amount of time on the clock and still hits 3-pointer to win by 2. I tend to disagree with this....part of the problem on the last play was that FSU was taking the ball out while Duke was still celebrating...they weren't really ready for the inbound. Second whether a make or a miss on a ft, the set up is completely different. on a make, Duke sets a defense; on a miss, theres significant likelihood that a second or so goes off the clock while the rebound is secured...while I agree that the time wouldn't have changed, all the pieces on the court would have been in completely different positions after a free throw and the difficulty of getting the ball up in the same amount of time would have been different.

UrinalCake
01-21-2012, 10:37 PM
I don't think it was that bad of a loss, although that may be because my basis of comparison is a 33-point thrashing.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, FSU is indeed playing great right now and certainly came into this game believing they were going to win. I think most Duke fans knew that this was going to be a tough game and after having a chance to take a step back, a three-point loss at the buzzer isn't such a hard pill to swallow. With that said, I think we also feel like there are a lot of things within our control that we could have done differently to win this game.

Out of curiosity, anyone know when was the last time that a team beat both Duke and UNC within 8 days?

uh_no
01-21-2012, 10:40 PM
Tennessee, a teams with a LOSING record, beat #11 UConn.

Then again, who hasn't beaten uconn lately?


And of course, #4 Duke, despite letting their opponent shoot nearly 67% - SIXTY FREAKING SEVEN!!!

Do they even shoot that well in the pregame layup line? Not to make fun, but its just ludicrous. I think this is at least the second time we've given up 50+ in the second half.

I think K sums it up perfectly:

"And we'll only get better by being in games like this. So having it take something out of you and then having to execute is part of how you win championships. The only way you do that is to get the experience of being in these games."

hurleyfor3
01-21-2012, 10:40 PM
Out of curiosity, anyone know when was the last time that a team beat both Duke and UNC within 8 days?

VPI did it in back-to-back games in 2007 I think. NCSU did it in the 1987 ACC Tournament.

1999ballboy
01-21-2012, 10:47 PM
There really isn't much to say about this game. Both teams played incredibly hard at a very high level. We played this game the same way we played most games this year, and we got beat by a (barely) better team. Of course there were mistakes, but nothing new. I didn't learn anything about our team this game. We're good, not great. We can still beat Florida State or most any other team in the country on a good day. Still plenty of reasons to root this Duke team on.

Kfanarmy
01-21-2012, 10:57 PM
Yeah, heaven forbid anyone try to provide some perspective as we're salving our wounds with big scoops of smug.

Whoever wrote that we'd never see a K-coached player do that is right. I'd go a step further and say tha you'll also never hear K talking about how much more righteous his kids are than anyone else's. Let's follow that lead, mkay? I always find fan reactions interesting...there are those who vent about the officiating (understandable) or the players (understandable) or a few specific plays (understandable) and those who try to make themselves feel better by telling everyone else how bad of fans they are. give it rest

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-21-2012, 11:09 PM
I'm surprised not to hear more about Austin's disallowed 3pt shot. They never showed a clean angle on tv. Len seemed certain it hit something. At least one poster here said it hit nothing. Does anyone know if that is something they could have reviewed? And if so, why didn't they? No one seemed to put up much of a fight. So maybe it did hit something. Just curious since they only showed two angles and then left the discussion pretty quickly.

UrinalCake
01-21-2012, 11:18 PM
I'm surprised not to hear more about Austin's disallowed 3pt shot.

My guess is that it hit the cable way above the shot clock that extends diagonally up and towards the center of the roof. I couldn't actually see it on the replay but it's the only thing I can think of. It didn't hit the shot clock itself (which would have been inbounds anyways), nor did it hit the top of the backboard.

I'm not too heartbroken over the call, I mean it was a crazy shot after our offense couldn't generate anything. Austin gets sucked into taking those shots when our offense stalls and he hits a decent percentage of them but I'd much rather we work to generate a better shot.

nmduke2001
01-21-2012, 11:23 PM
I think that it is ridiculous that Dre is getting hammered for the last play. Dre did exactly what he was supposed to do in that circumstance. You are taught to get between the ball and the rim in a scramble situation. You never give up a layup. If a jump shot beats you, so be it.

Duke79UNLV77
01-21-2012, 11:28 PM
Once again, you have to understand the way college basketball has been called over the last 20 or so years. It's been dominated by the advantage/disadvantage philosophy. Yes, John Adams is trying to move away from that (rightfully so). Yes, it makes for a lot of physical contact. Yes, it can be maddening to try and decipher how the officials are trying to call the game.

These are three long-time ACC officials steeped in the traditions of advantage disadvantage. The contact on Austin on that last play didn't affect his shot. It went in perfectly clean. Of course you could make a valid argument that there was illegal contact on an airborne shooter. But it all comes down to officiating philosophy, and what I saw was an official making a no-call based on the fact that Austin got the shot up clean.

Based on that logic, there could never be an and-one foul because the shot would always have gone in. That's obviously never been the case. I see the advantage philosophy as not calling a foul when it would actually stop an advantage for the offense (e.g., a fast break), so that the foul would actually be a disadvantage to the offense. Calling a foul on Austin's last shot wouldn't have done that. Please don't just respond with an ad hominem like you have to others.

I don't think the officiating cost us the game or was terrible, but I think they let a lot of physical contact go on cuts and drives which plays right into FSU's defensive philosophy. I heard some announcer comment recently that college basketball is now actually more physical than the NBA. Since the NBA has tightened up on contact with the ball handler, it has helped the more skilled players and made the game more entertaining. I think Austin was clearly fouled on the last play, and we could have set up our defense, but they still could have made a game-winning shot, so that was not a game-determining call.

Acymetric
01-21-2012, 11:35 PM
Based on that logic, there could never be an and-one foul because the shot would always have gone in. That's obviously never been the case. I see the advantage philosophy as not calling a foul when it would actually stop an advantage for the offense (e.g., a fast break), so that the foul would actually be a disadvantage to the offense. Calling a foul on Austin's last shot wouldn't have done that. Please don't just respond with an ad hominem like you have to others.

I don't think the officiating cost us the game or was terrible, but I think they let a lot of physical contact go on cuts and drives which plays right into FSU's defensive philosophy. I heard some announcer comment recently that college basketball is now actually more physical than the NBA. Since the NBA has tightened up on contact with the ball handler, it has helped the more skilled players and made the game more entertaining. I think Austin was clearly fouled on the last play, and we could have set up our defense, but they still could have made a game-winning shot, so that was not a game-determining call.

Except that the advantage is almost never given in situations like that, which is why I don't buy feldspar's Expert explanation on the issue. Advantage is not a major concept in basketball and generally is only applied with extremely light contact, not the kind of grabbing/tugging and pushing up that we saw today.

Kfanarmy
01-21-2012, 11:36 PM
Thought it was a great game....hate to see them lose, but this is one of those games where Duke learned a lot. Thought they were tough throughout the game. I thought the first four minutes or so of the second half were the key to the game....seemed like Duke had trouble getting going, and missed a few shots; on the other end FSU made a couple and they gained confidence....it set the tone for the whole second half. If Duke hits shots in the first few minutes of the half, this is a double-digit win. And I think the D is improving, inching its way toward something special...they are missing by a hair on a lot of plays...Really think sometime in the next month, it is all gonna click and then watch out! I got the same feeling watching Zoubek in early January of his senior year....I think this team is gonna explode in a month or so.

weezie
01-21-2012, 11:41 PM
Well, if it has any import now, the team sure looked like they had left everything they had out on the court as they walked towards the tunnel. They played as hard as they could, or can, at this point in this season. I was happy that the people in our section cheered as they passed in front of us.

Maybe it was said previously in this thread but during the post-game radio interview with Capel, he said that the first thing K said to the team in the locker room was, "I'm proud of you." So, if that's what K says, that's fine by me.

dcar1985
01-21-2012, 11:41 PM
I think that it is ridiculous that Dre is getting hammered for the last play. Dre did exactly what he was supposed to do in that circumstance. You are taught to get between the ball and the rim in a scramble situation. You never give up a layup. If a jump shot beats you, so be it.

Its part of playing the game, people are going to break down each play and criticism comes along with it...The ridiculous part IMO is that some feel like we shouldn't be able to say anything b/c its Dre and everyone loves Dre.....Fact is it was a lapse on D plan and simple....he wasn't the last man between the ball and he hoop Ryan was, the pass to Snaer was made above the 3 point line not in the paint, he wasn't in position to make any kind of impact on the play and should've been in Snaers shorts. It is what is....he might have hit the shot regardless the way FSU shot in the 2nd half

Duke79UNLV77
01-21-2012, 11:41 PM
Except that the advantage is almost never given in situations like that, which is why I don't buy feldspar's Expert explanation on the issue. Advantage is not a major concept in basketball and generally is only applied with extremely light contact, not the kind of grabbing/tugging and pushing up that we saw today.

Generally agree with you. It's more about not calling minor contact, but that can slip into letting teams bump cutters and drivers a lot, at which FSU does an outstanding job. Just pointing out that the Feldspar's point that the foul should not be called under the advantage rule because the shot went in cleanly makes no sense. Don't think officiating was the biggest issue in this game, though. I also wonder how in the world FSU only scored 10 in a half against Princeton.

FerryFor50
01-21-2012, 11:45 PM
Generally agree with you. It's more about not calling minor contact, but that can slip into letting teams bump cutters and drivers a lot, at which FSU does an outstanding job. Just pointing out that the Feldspar's point that the foul should not be called under the advantage rule because the shot went in cleanly makes no sense. Don't think officiating was the biggest issue in this game, though. I also wonder how in the world FSU only scored 10 in a half against Princeton.

Because FSU seems to only get up for the "big name" teams. They play lazy against teams they deem lesser opponents.

Kedsy
01-21-2012, 11:52 PM
This was a great game, win or lose. Bummer that we lost, but that shouldn't be how we judge whether it was a great game or a great effort. I thought our defense in the first half was about as well as we've played all season. Second half, not so much.

A lot to like offensively. Scored 1.09 points per possession against the #5 defense in the country, and that's pretty good. Always a mixed bag with Austin, as shown by his last two possessions -- great play on his last layup, not so great on the turnover before that. Overall, though, I thought he played very well today. And, though I rarely weigh in on officiating controversies, I think Austin draws contact on almost every drive he makes, but it's rarely called. Not sure why.


I wonder what the percentage of offensive possesions FSU scored on in the 2nd half. It had to be close to 90%.

FSU scored on 25 of 36 possessions in the 2nd half, which is 69.4%. That's pretty bad, but it's nowhere close to 90%.


One of the things that I see (or don't see) is that team really doesn't force a lot of turnovers. There was a stretch in the 2nd half where we had a steal and an over-and-back and converted on those, but I think this team is different from years past because it seems that we don't get many fast break points from turnovers. In years past, while Jon Sheyer was not the quickest, he had long arms, Nolan Smith WAS quick, and had the ability to disrupt passes in the backcourt. Whether it's a lack of quickness, positioning, or just a lack of "length", I think that the lack of turnovers and easy fast-break points hampers our defense. I'm not sure how to correct (if it's even correctable), but I think this has a fairly significant impact on the defensive end.

Our team is currently forcing turnovers on 20% of opposing possessions. In 2009-10, we forced turnovers on 21% of opposing possessions. In per game terms, we force 14.0 turnovers a game this season, and 14.2 turnovers a game in 2009-10. I don't think that's much of a difference.

FerryFor50
01-21-2012, 11:57 PM
This was a great game, win or lose. Bummer that we lost, but that shouldn't be how we judge whether it was a great game or a great effort. I thought our defense in the first half was about as well as we've played all season. Second half, not so much.

A lot to like offensively. Scored 1.09 points per possession against the #5 defense in the country, and that's pretty good. Always a mixed bag with Austin, as shown by his last two possessions -- great play on his last layup, not so great on the turnover before that. Overall, though, I thought he played very well today. And, though I rarely weigh in on officiating controversies, I think Austin draws contact on almost every drive he makes, but it's rarely called. Not sure why.



FSU scored on 25 of 36 possessions in the 2nd half, which is 69.4%. That's pretty bad, but it's nowhere close to 90%.



Our team is currently forcing turnovers on 20% of opposing possessions. In 2009-10, we forced turnovers on 21% of opposing possessions. In per game terms, we force 14.0 turnovers a game this season, and 14.2 turnovers a game in 2009-10. I don't think that's much of a difference.

I feel like the issue is Duke turnovers and the lack of assists.

darthur
01-22-2012, 12:03 AM
Based on that logic, there could never be an and-one foul because the shot would always have gone in. That's obviously never been the case. I see the advantage philosophy as not calling a foul when it would actually stop an advantage for the offense (e.g., a fast break), so that the foul would actually be a disadvantage to the offense. Calling a foul on Austin's last shot wouldn't have done that. Please don't just respond with an ad hominem like you have to others.

The point is the contact was *after* the shot for Austin. And-ones are where the foul interfered with the shot, but it went in anyway. I have never been clear on when after-the-shot contact is considered a foul, but certainly it is quite different from an and-one.

Anyway, count me on the side that thinks the game was officiated fine overall.


I don't think the officiating cost us the game or was terrible, but I think they let a lot of physical contact go on cuts and drives which plays right into FSU's defensive philosophy. I heard some announcer comment recently that college basketball is now actually more physical than the NBA. Since the NBA has tightened up on contact with the ball handler, it has helped the more skilled players and made the game more entertaining. I think Austin was clearly fouled on the last play, and we could have set up our defense, but they still could have made a game-winning shot, so that was not a game-determining call.

Well I also find the NBA far more entertaining than college, but I think I'm one of very few on this board who does :).

feldspar
01-22-2012, 12:12 AM
geez feldspar you don't allow anyone to make a comment about the officials without acting like no one else knows anything about the rules but yourself

Making a comment about the officials is one thing. Basically calling them incompetent is a whole other issue.


Generally agree with you. It's more about not calling minor contact, but that can slip into letting teams bump cutters and drivers a lot, at which FSU does an outstanding job. Just pointing out that the Feldspar's point that the foul should not be called under the advantage rule because the shot went in cleanly makes no sense.

I never said the advantage principle means a foul shouldn't be called because the shot went in. You're misunderstanding my statement. I said the foul didn't affect the shot. In fact, as I recall (I deleted the game from my DVR), the contact occurred after the ball left Austin's hand. There is a difference. Under advantage/disadvantage, yes, a lot of "and-ones" are not called, but that is based on the official holding his whistle waiting to see if the contact affected the shot (not just it going in, but trajectory, etc...). Under advantage/disadvantage it's absolutely possible to have an "and-one" play.


Based on that logic, there could never be an and-one foul because the shot would always have gone in.

Again, this is a misunderstanding of the principle I'm talking about.

Advantage/disadvantage, generally applied, means that when there is contact, the determining factor on whether or not to call a foul is based on if the offense or defense was placed at an advantage or disadvantage by the contact. For example, if Miles goes up for a rebound, grabs it, and an FSU player pushes from behind, but Miles retains the rebound, advantage/disadvantage would say to not call the foul, because Miles came away with the rebound. Now, if Miles was to drop the ball, fall to the floor, travel or anything of the like, then you go in and call the foul.

John Adams is working to change this philosophy more to the RSBQ standard: if contact affects a player's Rhythm, Speed, Balance or Quickness, you call the foul. That's generally the way it's called in the NBA, and there is a noticeable difference in the way teams move around the floor at that level.

gumbomoop
01-22-2012, 12:25 AM
I actually would have liked to see Hairston in there some to give some more physicality and save some fouls on the Plumlees.... Bernard James woke up in the 2nd half.

If our team is a work in progress, and if losses can be learning experiences, I'll be interested in seeing what changes K and staff make to avoid a repeat of tonight's 2d half defense, especially interior defense. James got several close-in shots in the 2d half, and I assume part of our problem on D was foul problems for Mason and Ryan. As James is not a good FT-shooter, he must be challenged, and certainly not given near-free dunks.

I wouldn't think Josh could guard James, but perhaps White or Kreft. I'd hope Mason and Miles could guard James close enough so that both of them would not foul out, while forcing him to make some FTs.

Thinking about the return match also lends itself to looking at upcoming schedules. I must say [the obvious], FSU, after its humbling at Clemson, has impressively won 2 away games, humbled the Heels, and took care of business with a solid home win v. Md. Now they have a pretty easy stretch coming up, with 4 of their next 6 games at home, and away games at Wake and BC. Their 2 toughest games in this stretch should be at home to UVa and Miami. But UVa will be at a serious disadvantage inside, having lost Sene for weeks.

FSU might well be 10-1 or 9-2, going into the tough stretch for them, which is their end-season, when they have several tough away games, and a rematch with Duke. I'd have to guess FSU might be ahead of Duke in the standings when the Devils travel to Tallahassee. They could be a pretty confident bunch by then.

Pretty impressive turn-around for the Noles. Have to admire that. Also have to think about little things that might turn the tide in our favor next time. Especially on D, about which our guys have some things to learn.

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 12:26 AM
I feel like the issue is Duke turnovers and the lack of assists.

Well, since we have the 3rd best offensive efficiency in the country, I strongly disagree.

feldspar
01-22-2012, 12:36 AM
Feldspar's typical defense of anything that didn't go Duke's way. A guy has to differentiate himself somehow I suppose.

One of the things I've come to learn in the last few years of being a Duke fan is that the losses are way easier to take when you turn down the tint on your Duke-blue glasses. When I finally started doing that, I found that my blood pressure took a noticeable dip, my family didn't have to avoid me for a full afternoon after a loss and I didn't post irrational, biased comments about the game on DBR afterwards. And I stopped thinking that Karl Hess had a personal vendetta against us and that all referees were incompetent buffoons who have less basketball knowledge in their whole bodies than I do in my pinkie fingernail.

So, my comments aren't some "typical defense of anything that didn't go Duke's way" out of a desire to "differentiate [my]self somehow..."

It's just a byproduct of my new found ability to look at things through a prism that's not quite so skewed in the direction of Cameron Indoor Stadium. I happen to enjoy my new outlook.

And, looking through that prism, I find it not at all shocking or surprising or offensive that whatever FSU player it was made certain benign gestures at the Cameron Crazies at the end of the game. If you're going to give, give, give to opposing players night in and night out, occasionally, just occasionally, you gotta be willing to take when the ball doesn't bounce your way.

dukepsy1963
01-22-2012, 12:52 AM
It really hurts tonight, but listen, these young guys have what it takes. Tonight's bruises are tomorrow's victories. Hang tough.

Go Duke!

dukepsy1963
01-22-2012, 12:55 AM
One of the things I've come to learn in the last few years of being a Duke fan is that the losses are way easier to take when you turn down the tint on your Duke-blue glasses. When I finally started doing that, I found that my blood pressure took a noticeable dip, my family didn't have to avoid me for a full afternoon after a loss and I didn't post irrational, biased comments about the game on DBR afterwards. And I stopped thinking that Karl Hess had a personal vendetta against us and that all referees were incompetent buffoons who have less basketball knowledge in their whole bodies than I do in my pinkie fingernail.

So, my comments aren't some "typical defense of anything that didn't go Duke's way" out of a desire to "differentiate [my]self somehow..."

It's just a byproduct of my new found ability to look at things through a prism that's not quite so skewed in the direction of Cameron Indoor Stadium. I happen to enjoy my new outlook.

And, looking through that prism, I find it not at all shocking or surprising or offensive that whatever FSU player it was made certain benign gestures at the Cameron Crazies at the end of the game. If you're going to give, give, give to opposing players night in and night out, occasionally, just occasionally, you gotta be willing to take when the ball doesn't bounce your way.

Well said, well said. Right on....

gofurman
01-22-2012, 01:44 AM
DIdnt get to see all of the game - why so little Quinn Cook and Thornton? Of course I do admit it looks like our D stunk in the second half so I could see giving up Cook in favor of Thornton then - but it looks like Cook didnt play at all and Thornton played some.

And I do get that Rivers and Dawkins are killin' it lately. Still , one minute for cook? what was that esp with regards to first half where we didnt have a lot of O?

Bluedog
01-22-2012, 02:00 AM
DIdnt get to see all of the game - why so little Quinn Cook and Thornton? Of course I do admit it looks like our D stunk in the second half so I could see giving up Cook in favor of Thornton then - but it looks like Cook didnt play at all and Thornton played some.

And I do get that Rivers and Dawkins are killin' it lately. Still , one minute for cook? what was that esp with regards to first half where we didnt have a lot of O?

Cook is injured; hurt his knee. Went in for like 30 seconds today so perhaps not super serious, but that's why he didn't get many minutes. No real details have been released. Hope he fully recovers soon. Thornton played 17 minutes; I wouldn't call that "so little." I agree it would have helped this team to have Cook play more minutes, but the injury sidelined him.

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 02:17 AM
I agree it would have helped this team to have Cook play more minutes...

I don't see how. Our offense played quite well without him, considering the strength Florida State's defense. Hard to imagine Quinn helping our defense significantly, especially considering the size of FSU's perimeter. He would have been giving up 5 or 6 inches to whomever he was guarding. And on offense he would probably have had a tough time seeing over whomever was guarding him. Seems to me since he was under the weather anyway, this was a perfect game to rest him.

Bluedog
01-22-2012, 02:20 AM
I don't see how. Our offense played quite well without him, considering the strength Florida State's defense. Hard to imagine Quinn helping our defense significantly, especially considering the size of FSU's perimeter. He would have been giving up 5 or 6 inches to whomever he was guarding. And on offense he would probably have had a tough time seeing over whomever was guarding him. Seems to me since he was under the weather anyway, this was a perfect game to rest him.

I agree that sitting him for this game was a good move since he wasn't 100% healthy. I simply meant that I think getting Quinn some minutes sporadically (when he's healthy) in the game is typically good for this team in the long run. But, yes, it certainly depends on the particular matchup. Sorry for being unclear. This game was certainly a tough loss, but I think we'll be better for it. We definitely saw some good things from our players. They just made one more play than us at the end. FSU is a solid team and our defense in the second half needed to be a bit better to close out the game. But, overall, I thought we showed resiliency and toughness and I like how this team is developing.

Greg_Newton
01-22-2012, 02:36 AM
One of the things I've come to learn in the last few years of being a Duke fan is that the losses are way easier to take when you turn down the tint on your Duke-blue glasses. When I finally started doing that, I found that my blood pressure took a noticeable dip, my family didn't have to avoid me for a full afternoon after a loss and I didn't post irrational, biased comments about the game on DBR afterwards. And I stopped thinking that Karl Hess had a personal vendetta against us and that all referees were incompetent buffoons who have less basketball knowledge in their whole bodies than I do in my pinkie fingernail.

So, my comments aren't some "typical defense of anything that didn't go Duke's way" out of a desire to "differentiate [my]self somehow..."

It's just a byproduct of my new found ability to look at things through a prism that's not quite so skewed in the direction of Cameron Indoor Stadium. I happen to enjoy my new outlook.

And, looking through that prism, I find it not at all shocking or surprising or offensive that whatever FSU player it was made certain benign gestures at the Cameron Crazies at the end of the game. If you're going to give, give, give to opposing players night in and night out, occasionally, just occasionally, you gotta be willing to take when the ball doesn't bounce your way.

Congratulations on your personal epiphany, but maybe trolling a post-game thread immediately after a heartbreaking loss with comments like "You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about", calling posters "foolish" and their opinions "ludicrous", defending FSU players classless trash talking and getting fans facing after the game ("benign gestures"? Spoken like someone who was not present for their little display...), and incorrectly, inexplicably nitpicking posts (Saying that the a foul call on the Rivers layup would have made no difference? Seriously? We would have had time to gather ourselves, SET OUR DEFENSE, possibly take the lead, then force FSU to go the length of the court off of a dead ball under 5 seconds with no timeouts. Guarantee that doesn't end in an uncontested shot.).

So maybe you've separated yourself from Duke basketball and try to play devil's advocate - no matter how irrational - but some of us were at the game screaming our hearts out for two hours with the team. If you're so at peace with everything, I'd suggest avoiding being an extremely confrontational, anti-Duke poster on post-game threads where more emotionally invested fans are already on edge.

Kfanarmy
01-22-2012, 02:39 AM
One of the things I've come to learn in the last few years of being a Duke fan is that the losses are way easier to take when you turn down the tint on your Duke-blue glasses. When I finally started doing that, I found that my blood pressure took a noticeable dip, my family didn't have to avoid me for a full afternoon after a loss and I didn't post irrational, biased comments about the game on DBR afterwards. And I stopped thinking that Karl Hess had a personal vendetta against us and that all referees were incompetent buffoons who have less basketball knowledge in their whole bodies than I do in my pinkie fingernail.

So, my comments aren't some "typical defense of anything that didn't go Duke's way" out of a desire to "differentiate [my]self somehow..."

It's just a byproduct of my new found ability to look at things through a prism that's not quite so skewed in the direction of Cameron Indoor Stadium. I happen to enjoy my new outlook.

And, looking through that prism, I find it not at all shocking or surprising or offensive that whatever FSU player it was made certain benign gestures at the Cameron Crazies at the end of the game. If you're going to give, give, give to opposing players night in and night out, occasionally, just occasionally, you gotta be willing to take when the ball doesn't bounce your way. but maybe you've just developed a habit of venting your frustration on other Duke fans, rather than stewing over the loss...

Cell-R
01-22-2012, 03:09 AM
I was on the front row directly in front of where the FSU players came to celebrate. I was pretty mad about losing the game like that, but my anger turned into a fury due to the actions of the FSU players. I can definitely empathize with them in the gloating, and maybe even walking towards the Crazies to gloat - they DID just beat Duke AT Duke on a last second shot. That doesn't happen often.

The thing that upset me was the fact that the celebration of the FSU players, the stomping, kicking, beating of chests, etc. almost took them INTO the student section. I was standing at the break in the screen on the front row, and the players were no more than three or four feet away before the security guard stepped between us and them. Actually, that wasn't what upset me. What really did it was the fact that one of the FSU players took the wig of a Crazie and threw it on the ground. I can't attest to whether or not he actually took it directly off a Crazie or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did based on the almost violent manner of their celebration.

Maybe my anger was unfounded and a result of a heartbreaking loss after an emotional game. Maybe not. Either way, I know for a fact that no Duke player would even consider displaying classlessness like that. =

darthur
01-22-2012, 04:45 AM
Congratulations on your personal epiphany, but maybe trolling a post-game thread immediately after a heartbreaking loss with comments like "You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about", calling posters "foolish" and their opinions "ludicrous", defending FSU players classless trash talking and getting fans facing after the game ("benign gestures"? Spoken like someone who was not present for their little display...), and incorrectly, inexplicably nitpicking posts (Saying that the a foul call on the Rivers layup would have made no difference? Seriously? We would have had time to gather ourselves, SET OUR DEFENSE, possibly take the lead, then force FSU to go the length of the court off of a dead ball under 5 seconds with no timeouts. Guarantee that doesn't end in an uncontested shot.).

So maybe you've separated yourself from Duke basketball and try to play devil's advocate - no matter how irrational - but some of us were at the game screaming our hearts out for two hours with the team. If you're so at peace with everything, I'd suggest avoiding being an extremely confrontational, anti-Duke poster on post-game threads where more emotionally invested fans are already on edge.

Which is worse? Taunting opposing fans when you win, or lashing out at everyone and everything (refs, opposing players, fellow fans, ...) when you lose? College basketball fans everywhere are merciless to opposing players. Having to taste your own medicine once in a while is not such a bad thing.

Anyway, Feldspar is certainly right about one thing. It's a game, and this was not even an especially important one. Duke lost. Hopefully, they'll learn something from it. And hopefully we fans can remember that it's not the end of the world.

guybrush
01-22-2012, 06:46 AM
http://www.dailybasket.it/ncaa/florida-state-lammazzavampiri/

arnie
01-22-2012, 07:31 AM
I was on the front row directly in front of where the FSU players came to celebrate. I was pretty mad about losing the game like that, but my anger turned into a fury due to the actions of the FSU players. I can definitely empathize with them in the gloating, and maybe even walking towards the Crazies to gloat - they DID just beat Duke AT Duke on a last second shot. That doesn't happen often.

The thing that upset me was the fact that the celebration of the FSU players, the stomping, kicking, beating of chests, etc. almost took them INTO the student section. I was standing at the break in the screen on the front row, and the players were no more than three or four feet away before the security guard stepped between us and them. Actually, that wasn't what upset me. What really did it was the fact that one of the FSU players took the wig of a Crazie and threw it on the ground. I can't attest to whether or not he actually took it directly off a Crazie or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did based on the almost violent manner of their celebration.

Maybe my anger was unfounded and a result of a heartbreaking loss after an emotional game. Maybe not. Either way, I know for a fact that no Duke player would even consider displaying classlessness like that. =

Thanks Cell-R; that's what I was referencing before getting blasted on this Board. Glad I didn't just imagine what I saw. I actually thought the one player was going to leap into the stands - that would have been ugly.

CLW
01-22-2012, 08:18 AM
Agree except, do you REALLY think we didn't play badly? Our defense was atrocious. Our defense was ranked 60th coming into the FSU game and after getting carved up by the 110th ranked offense, it will only drop. 50pts in the 2nd half to FSU is unbelievable. This year's defense may be historically bad for Duke, as in one of the worst of coach K's career. Since 2003, our defense has been at worst 20th in 2009 (www.kenpom.com).

For a long time, I was an advocate of starting Cook at PG based on his offensive play-creating abilities. Honestly, right now I don't care about offense given it's our defense that's been costing us games. And it's not just "one bad game" folks, this is a season-long pattern.

Since we've been grinding out ugly wins for a while now, I was hopeful that this would be like 2010, except that team featured consistently strong defense day-in and day-out except for some true aberrations (GTown and NC State).

The good news is that there's still "time." The bad news is there's only 12 games left in the regular season. Maybe we can be like the NE Patriots and score ourselves deep into the postseason.

Checked this morning and we now have the 84th best defense in the country on Kenpom. Anyone who thinks that our defense wasn't the cause for the L yesterday and isn't going to be our undoing in March (baring some change or huge improvement) is fooling themselves.

If we had a "normal" Duke defense this team would be one of the Top 4 teams in the country. However, we don't and that puts this team in the 10-20 range.

Saratoga2
01-22-2012, 08:51 AM
I thought the kids came out with a lot of intensity and really played hard the entire 40 minutes. We were in the game the entire way and were only beat in the last second of the game. Probably the biggest defensive problem for us last night was the back screen and FSU getting to the basket. I think our guys, in particular Mason, had trouble losing his man and then with foul trouble he had to be careful. With the short turnaround between games, I wonder if the coaches had more time that they would have prepped more for that move.

I was very impressed by Andre's play on both ends of the floor. Too bad he picked up two early fouls and had to sit for a while. I thought it one of the more interesting items as to whether Andre could score against such a big and agressive defense. He showed that he could and probably will continue to do so. I was hoping he would take more of the shots near the end of the game, since he was hot and Seth was not, nor was Ryan for that matter.

Austin had and excellent game as well at both ends of the court. I will take an occasional overaggressive offensive move if he can deliver most of the time. He last shot to tie the game was a thing of beauty. I thought it was one of the keys to the game, how well he could do breaking down tlahe defense of FSU.

One of my other keys was how well Quinn could do. Since I didn't read the string as yet, preferring to put down my thoughts first, I haven't heard why he only plaayed 1 minute. He must be hobbling.

I thought Miles played a very solid game. He has really come a long ways in the past month and was able to counter some of the FSU size and aggressive play. Good going for Miles.

One of my other keys was the play of Ryan. I thought the coaches would try to use his mobility against FSU to either get a shot off or draw a fould. Unfortunately, Ryan had limited success doing that although he really gave it his all. I thought he last move where he got fouled was really close to a charge and we lucked out on that one.

While Seth played some good defense, he was pretty cold offensively. Too bad that he couldn't have hit a few more of those and it would have been all over for FSU. Tyler played well but wasn't the scorer we needed either.

Negatives:

Hard to find a lot of negatives in this game. We had a number of individual plays which contributed to the loss and they were spread among players. Some that I really didn't like were:

1. Ryan hedging close to 30 feet from the basket and blatantly drawing the fould which cost us 2.
2. Ryan and Mason both kind of flat footed trying to receive a pass where the defender came around them for the steal. They need to move toward the pass.
3. Mason making one of his moves to the basket where he shuffled his feet. He has to know it doesn't make a lot of sense going against a doulbe team.
4. Miles with yet another moving screen.
5. Ryan dribbling into a triple team.

There were others, but some of these seemed pretty avoidable and in a close game, you don't need to help the other team.

Finally, the last play happened so quickly and Snaer had to make a big shot to beat us. I wondered why our guys didn't make the dribbler take the longer route. I didn't think it was Andre's issue as he was playing halfway and couldn't quite get out on the shot.

Devilsfan
01-22-2012, 08:58 AM
I also watched Andre as he guarded #4 who last week lit up the tar holes. Andre was great. It's so nice to see a kid who's been through so much do so well. Now if the rest of our squad would take his lead and step it up"together", key word "together" and play like a team we will all be very satisfied, IMO.

weezie
01-22-2012, 09:35 AM
Random thought: my kingdom for a timeout register inside Cameron.

I'm too lazy and/or dimwitted to have to keep track of them myself.
How much would one cost?

Saratoga2
01-22-2012, 09:50 AM
I don't see how. Our offense played quite well without him, considering the strength Florida State's defense. Hard to imagine Quinn helping our defense significantly, especially considering the size of FSU's perimeter. He would have been giving up 5 or 6 inches to whomever he was guarding. And on offense he would probably have had a tough time seeing over whomever was guarding him. Seems to me since he was under the weather anyway, this was a perfect game to rest him.

If Cook was healthy, he might have been able to spell Seth, who appeared to be dragging a little. Certainly his shooting was off. Maybe a little rest would have helped Seth regain his shot.

Papa John
01-22-2012, 10:42 AM
Checked this morning and we now have the 84th best defense in the country on Kenpom. Anyone who thinks that our defense wasn't the cause for the L yesterday and isn't going to be our undoing in March (baring some change or huge improvement) is fooling themselves.

If we had a "normal" Duke defense this team would be one of the Top 4 teams in the country. However, we don't and that puts this team in the 10-20 range.

I notice that among the defenses ranked ahead of us in Pomeroy, only 17 of those teams have a SOS rating in the top-100, only 3 of those 17 have a SOS in the top-50, and only 1 of those 17 teams have a SOS in the top-25. We've played a SOS ranked #12 thus far. Perhaps this factors in to the perception of poor defense? We're actually playing better teams, and better teams tend to execute better on offense.

As for yesterday... Losing sucks, but it was one of the great games of the college basketball season thus far this year, IMO. I thought we played solid defense, with a few lapses, throughout. Credit FSU with executing some nice plays at times to patiently work their way through solid defense to the basket, and also credit some of their players with hitting very tough shots. This was a game where each team was countering a punch received with a punch thrown. Unfortunately for us, FSU got to throw the last punch.

Also, the argument of giving up so many points to the #115 offense in the country to me seems a tad disingenuous. FSU has clearly turned a corner of late offensively, and are putting up more points and executing quite well. My guess is if you were to rank their offense in recent games, it would not be #115, and would likely be in the first tier (top-40) of Pomeroy's rankings. They're simply playing really well right now... Just ask Carolina... ;-)

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 10:52 AM
Checked this morning and we now have the 84th best defense in the country on Kenpom. Anyone who thinks that our defense wasn't the cause for the L yesterday and isn't going to be our undoing in March (baring some change or huge improvement) is fooling themselves.

If we had a "normal" Duke defense this team would be one of the Top 4 teams in the country. However, we don't and that puts this team in the 10-20 range.

I agree that defense was our undoing yesterday afternoon. Not sure how you can tell with such certainty what's going to happen in March, though. Going into the NCAA tournament last season, Virginia Commonwealth's defense was rated 143rd by Pomeroy. Butler's was 77th. They both seemed to do OK in March.

Also, Pomeroy agrees with you and ranks us #15 right now. However, we've beaten #2, #4, and #14, so again I don't think we can say anything credible regarding what's going to happen in a one-and-done tournament that will take place in just under two months.

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 11:06 AM
If Cook was healthy, he might have been able to spell Seth, who appeared to be dragging a little. Certainly his shooting was off. Maybe a little rest would have helped Seth regain his shot.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I suspect Seth's low shooting percentage had more to do with the fact that he was being guarded by a guy at least three inches tall than him (and probably closer to five, since I think Seth's listed height may be a bit inflated), as opposed to him needing a few extra minutes on the bench.

Seth played 36 minutes against Florida State. That's 6.6 minutes above his 29.4 mpg average, but it's not the first time he's played that much (it's the fourth this season). Against Michigan State, Seth played 38 minutes but still shot 57%.

Also, Austin played 38 minutes, so if Quinn had played I'm not sure he would have necessarily subbed for Seth, meaning he would have saved Seth even fewer minutes. At the end of the day it's hard for me to accept the idea that a conditioned athlete like Seth couldn't play 36 minutes on a Saturday afternoon without losing his shot.

gw67
01-22-2012, 11:10 AM
Great game to watch and it could have gone either way. I agree with Papa John. Florida State is playing as well as any ACC team at the moment. They are like the Giants in that they are suddenly coming on strong after a slow start. The Devils are fun to watch but they clearly are a good not great team. The Noles match up well with both Duke and UNC and IMO, they have a personnel advantage over the remaining ACC teams. They are deep, experienced (6 seniors and one junior among top 9 players), have good size, play outstanding defense, and their offense which was very poor early in the year, is starting to come around. They are in a good position to play for the regular season lead. They play the Devils at home and Virginia home and away as part of their remaining league games.

gw67

roywhite
01-22-2012, 11:35 AM
Great game to watch and it could have gone either way. I agree with Papa John. Florida State is playing as well as any ACC team at the moment. They are like the Giants in that they are suddenly coming on strong after a slow start. The Devils are fun to watch but they clearly are a good not great team. The Noles match up well with both Duke and UNC and IMO, they have a personnel advantage over the remaining ACC teams. They are deep, experienced (6 seniors and one junior among top 9 players), have good size, play outstanding defense, and their offense which was very poor early in the year, is starting to come around. They are in a good position to play for the regular season lead. They play the Devils at home and Virginia home and away as part of their remaining league games.

gw67

Very impressed with the Seminoles. Clearly, they're a physically imposing, mature team.

Can they handle success and continue their winning ways? Can they demonstrate consistency? That's a reasonable question for a team than on one hand scored 10 points in a half vs Princeton, 14 points in a half vs Harvard, but then scored 50 points in a half against Duke.

jimsumner
01-22-2012, 12:06 PM
Random thought: my kingdom for a timeout register inside Cameron.

I'm too lazy and/or dimwitted to have to keep track of them myself.
How much would one cost?

One of my pet peeves. For years. I've asked. Never really been given an answer.

Devil in the Blue Dress
01-22-2012, 12:18 PM
Very impressed with the Seminoles. Clearly, they're a physically imposing, mature team.

Can they handle success and continue their winning ways? Can they demonstrate consistency? That's a reasonable question for a team than on one hand scored 10 points in a half vs Princeton, 14 points in a half vs Harvard, but then scored 50 points in a half against Duke.
As discussions about recent FSU wins have unfolded, much of the focus has been on the teams they beat (Carolina and Duke). FSU is playing great ball right now. They are not only very physical, they cultivate intimidation..... How many teams would have rushed an opponent's home court and headed straight over to taunt the students?

The rest of the season is going to make a great mini series.

gw67
01-22-2012, 12:30 PM
Very impressed with the Seminoles. Clearly, they're a physically imposing, mature team.

Can they handle success and continue their winning ways? Can they demonstrate consistency? That's a reasonable question for a team than on one hand scored 10 points in a half vs Princeton, 14 points in a half vs Harvard, but then scored 50 points in a half against Duke.

Those are very fair questions. As I noted, they appeared to be out of sync offensively early in the season but in the last three games, their inside outside game has begun to click. Like Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Kansas and other good teams, they can be expected to have some off nights on the offensive end but they are a very good defensive team and that may bail them out during those occasions.

Since you highlighted two of my comments, do you disagree that they are playing as well as any ACC team at the moment (crushed UNC and defeated the Devils at Cameron)? Also, do you believe that there are other teams that have inside (James, Gibson, White, Kreft) and outside personnel (Snear, Loucks, Dulkys, Miller, Peterson, Whisnant) better than Florida State? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just see that ACC as being weak this year and am happy that the Noles are stepping up to the plate. I hope Virginia and NC State can do the same.

gw67

OldPhiKap
01-22-2012, 12:33 PM
FSU is playing very well, kudos to them on a hard-fought victory.

Very entertaining game, well-played by both teams. They got the last shot, they hit it. Game, blouses.

Time to break down the mistakes, correct them, and move on.

It's ACC ball.

Saratoga2
01-22-2012, 12:38 PM
Maybe, but I doubt it. I suspect Seth's low shooting percentage had more to do with the fact that he was being guarded by a guy at least three inches tall than him (and probably closer to five, since I think Seth's listed height may be a bit inflated), as opposed to him needing a few extra minutes on the bench.

Seth played 36 minutes against Florida State. That's 6.6 minutes above his 29.4 mpg average, but it's not the first time he's played that much (it's the fourth this season). Against Michigan State, Seth played 38 minutes but still shot 57%.

Also, Austin played 38 minutes, so if Quinn had played I'm not sure he would have necessarily subbed for Seth, meaning he would have saved Seth even fewer minutes. At the end of the day it's hard for me to accept the idea that a conditioned athlete like Seth couldn't play 36 minutes on a Saturday afternoon without losing his shot.

He had at least two wide open shots late that he missed. Maybe he was contested earlier and he had more of an excuse. The team did play Thursday evening, so there wasn't a lot of rest for the players. If Seth was shutdown by a taller guard, all the more reason to put in someone who had a chance of beating that guard off the dribble. Like you though, I believe Seth, Tyler and Quinn have their height listed in shoes and maybe even then it is generous. We could use that 6'5" or 6'6" inch guard that had the experience to be a reasonable substitute for our shorter guards, but Michael doesn't seem ready, so we need to do with the guys we have and make the best of it.

CLW
01-22-2012, 12:59 PM
I notice that among the defenses ranked ahead of us in Pomeroy, only 17 of those teams have a SOS rating in the top-100, only 3 of those 17 have a SOS in the top-50, and only 1 of those 17 teams have a SOS in the top-25. We've played a SOS ranked #12 thus far. Perhaps this factors in to the perception of poor defense? We're actually playing better teams, and better teams tend to execute better on offense.

As for yesterday... Losing sucks, but it was one of the great games of the college basketball season thus far this year, IMO. I thought we played solid defense, with a few lapses, throughout. Credit FSU with executing some nice plays at times to patiently work their way through solid defense to the basket, and also credit some of their players with hitting very tough shots. This was a game where each team was countering a punch received with a punch thrown. Unfortunately for us, FSU got to throw the last punch.

Also, the argument of giving up so many points to the #115 offense in the country to me seems a tad disingenuous. FSU has clearly turned a corner of late offensively, and are putting up more points and executing quite well. My guess is if you were to rank their offense in recent games, it would not be #115, and would likely be in the first tier (top-40) of Pomeroy's rankings. They're simply playing really well right now... Just ask Carolina... ;-)

I might be wrong but as I understand it Kenpom takes into account the differences in scheduling difficulty when giving each team its ratings for offensive and defensive efficiency.

Our adjusted defensive efficiency rating is 95.2 (84th). I think that means an average Division 1 team would score 95.2 points per 100 possessions against the 11-12 Duke defense.

Basically it means the D gives up roughly 1 point per possession (.952 to be exact) against an average Division 1 squad. Where as the #1 team in Defense (Ohio St.) is giving up roughly 3/4 of a point per possession (.774) against an average team. We are averaging nearly 70 possessions per game so that is the equivalent of needing to score an extra 12.46 points per game on offense to get the same result as Ohio St due to our much poorer defense.

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 01:00 PM
He had at least two wide open shots late that he missed.

I may be projecting, because when I play I'm a short guard, but I felt Seth sort of rushed those late shots, perhaps anticipating the defense. That's what I do when I'm guarded by a much taller player, although Seth is about a bzillion times better than me, so maybe it doesn't happen to him and his legs were just tired, as you say.

Class of '94
01-22-2012, 01:15 PM
I'm still mad that we lost. I hate the idea of losing a home game we could've won; but like many posters have pointed out, I think Duke played well enough to win but their defense and bad turnovers on offense in the 2nd half hurt them. That said, I believe FSU deserved to win the game and played smarter than we did in the 2nd half. I'm still disappointed in the play of Ryan Kelly in the game. Granted, he made some timely scores but overall he shot poorly and made some bad turnovers at points where we could've extended the lead. I thought missing the FT towards the end of the game was the icing on top. As one poster noted, it seemed at times that the ball was in his hands for too long and more times than not it led to bad plays on offense when he tried to make something happen. Along with Ryan and being smarter on offense, our defense needs to improve. Two times we had the lead at 8 or 9 points in the second half and had the opportunity to extend the lead to double gigits but either made mistakes on offense or bad plays on defense. IMO, the game should not have been this close at the end and Duke should've won it; and that is the most frustrating part for me. Duke has to and will learn from this game and I believe we will better because of this tough loss. This would've been a nice game to have had Quinn healthy to potentially limit the mistakes on offense in the 2nd half but the team will have to eliminate the mental lapses on defense and I believe they will. I think this team can evolve into a great team but everybody has to work on their communication and commitment to defense. There are still times where we are not staying connected and communicating on defense and that's where I think our improvement needs to start.

BluDvlsN1
01-22-2012, 01:17 PM
For me, what I'm seeing is ACC basketball, historic, exciting, frustrating at times,but almost always entertaining!
I personally get bored with basketball that doesn't have a strong defensive component in it!

As discussed at length already, Yesterday was a mixed bag of components! I like a lot of what I saw,I really like the team effort,and physicality of the team (something we haven't always been accused of)!

The interior D,as noted by many, was a concern in the 2nd half to be sure.. Our bigs have improved greatly this year, (for the most part ) in not picking up unnecessary fouls, particularly 20+ ft from the basket and out of position reach in fouls! I submit when those do not happen, we are better positioned to be physical inside when needed, which could have been better yesterday!

Has anyone else recognized Seth getting down the lane and to the hole more often, giving us another breakdown option and not relying solely on his stroke !

Andre has been that outside threat, but he has shown so much more growth in his overall game recently!

The last 2 games for Austin have been huge in my opinion adjusting to this lineup, it's what we figured would happen given some time!

There is a lot of upside to talk about with this team, and I think it is coming together!
Will we be dominant ?, maybe not, but they're competing, they're growing, they're putting it together!

We lost, but we were right there and we can see the adjustments needed to turn that type of game into a "W"!

This team is young, bright, and Unique.. They're is a Pygmalion effect taking place with this team, let's enjoy the transformations that are happening, give them room to grow, and appreciate them and their individual and collective growth!

They need our support and positive encouragement!

It's why we're here, It's what we bought into, DUKE and ACC basketball..

Just one guys opinion!

jipops
01-22-2012, 01:32 PM
Great game to watch and it could have gone either way. I agree with Papa John. Florida State is playing as well as any ACC team at the moment. They are like the Giants in that they are suddenly coming on strong after a slow start. The Devils are fun to watch but they clearly are a good not great team. The Noles match up well with both Duke and UNC and IMO, they have a personnel advantage over the remaining ACC teams. They are deep, experienced (6 seniors and one junior among top 9 players), have good size, play outstanding defense, and their offense which was very poor early in the year, is starting to come around. They are in a good position to play for the regular season lead. They play the Devils at home and Virginia home and away as part of their remaining league games.

gw67

No denying FSU is the hot ACC team right now and in hindsight this shouldn't be too surprising with their maturity, athleticism, length, and long range shooting ability. Things always change throughout the season but right now the top 2 appear to be FSU and UNC with us and NC State battling for the 3rd spot. And State looks much more impressive athletically and defensively than we do right now. This isn't a knee jerk reaction last night but I think a 10-6 ACC finish is a very realistic result for this team.

uh_no
01-22-2012, 01:46 PM
I notice that among the defenses ranked ahead of us in Pomeroy, only 17 of those teams have a SOS rating in the top-100, only 3 of those 17 have a SOS in the top-50, and only 1 of those 17 teams have a SOS in the top-25. We've played a SOS ranked #12 thus far. Perhaps this factors in to the perception of poor defense? We're actually playing better teams, and better teams tend to execute better on offense.

That's an invalid assertion. kenpom already takes into account the strength of opposing offenses when calculating our defensive rating.

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 04:21 PM
Things always change throughout the season but right now the top 2 appear to be FSU and UNC with us and NC State battling for the 3rd spot.

You mean the UNC team that lost by 33 a week ago? If the last shot didn't go in and we won in OT, would Duke get to be in your top two?

roywhite
01-22-2012, 04:34 PM
Those are very fair questions. As I noted, they appeared to be out of sync offensively early in the season but in the last three games, their inside outside game has begun to click. Like Duke, UNC, Syracuse, Kansas and other good teams, they can be expected to have some off nights on the offensive end but they are a very good defensive team and that may bail them out during those occasions.

Since you highlighted two of my comments, do you disagree that they are playing as well as any ACC team at the moment (crushed UNC and defeated the Devils at Cameron)? Also, do you believe that there are other teams that have inside (James, Gibson, White, Kreft) and outside personnel (Snear, Loucks, Dulkys, Miller, Peterson, Whisnant) better than Florida State? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just see that ACC as being weak this year and am happy that the Noles are stepping up to the plate. I hope Virginia and NC State can do the same.

gw67

I do agree that FSU is playing as well as any ACC team at the moment, better actually.

As to their personnel, I saw the game in person yesterday and was very impressed by both the inside and outside players of FSU.
They are strong, athletic, play good defense, and shot well yesterday. Snaer, Gibson, James, and Dulkys look like pro prospects, and the quality depth is striking.

I'd prefer to see them play more games against good ACC teams before I proclaim them as the favorite, or likely to finish in the top two.
It's just hard for me to reconcile the FSU team I saw yesterday with the way they performed in some earlier games, mostly non-conference, but also including a 20 point loss to Clemson.
Yes, I realize they've had additions to their lineup and haven't been at full strength until recently. As I said, let's see how they handle recent success and can they be consistent?

sagegrouse
01-22-2012, 04:52 PM
You mean the UNC team that lost by 33 a week ago? If the last shot didn't go in and we won in OT, would Duke get to be in your top two?


I do agree that FSU is playing as well as any ACC team at the moment, better actually.

As to their personnel, I saw the game in person yesterday and was very impressed by both the inside and outside players of FSU.
They are strong, athletic, play good defense, and shot well yesterday. Snaer, Gibson, James, and Dulkys look like pro prospects, and the quality depth is striking.

I'd prefer to see them play more games against good ACC teams before I proclaim them as the favorite, or likely to finish in the top two.
It's just hard for me to reconcile the FSU team I saw yesterday with the way they performed in some earlier games, mostly non-conference, but also including a 20 point loss to Clemson.
Yes, I realize they've had additions to their lineup and haven't been at full strength until recently. As I said, let's see how they handle recent success and can they be consistent?

FSU bears close watching, but this is a team that has lost six games, including a 20-point drubbing at Clemson earlier this month. It has played three teams in BCS conferences and lost to them all. It lost to Harvard Princeton. Yeah, I have seen UNC come back from the dead a number of times and play consistently well the rest of the year. But, if you don't mind, FSU doesn't get ranked at the top of my list on the basis of two weeks of games. But, the Seminoles bear close watching.

UVa, Duke, and (yes) UNC have the best records, with some good wins and loss totals of 2, 3, and 3. All of the four teams (plus State) have lost only one ACC game.

I'd wait a couple of weeks before giving FSU the top spot.

sagegrouse

sporthenry
01-22-2012, 05:05 PM
This just had the feel of one of those Duke letdown games. The offensive was pretty efficient but as mentioned, they lacked that killer instinct when they could have put the game out of reach. The 6 point swing at the end of the first half was huge b/c if AR hits that and Snaer doesn't, I think Duke wins the game. But even in the second half, while we missed/forced some shots, it seemed we were getting what we wanted on offense. But the defense just couldn't come up with consecutive stops that just let them hang in there. Then it just came down to execution and first team to miss and that was us.

Teams just play much harder against Duke and when you let a team hang around then they get confidence and you have these role players step up and beat us. It will be a learning point in this season and I trust K can fix the defense but we gave up a nice little lead in the ACC.

mike88
01-22-2012, 05:45 PM
FSU bears close watching, but this is a team that has lost six games, including a 20-point drubbing at Clemson earlier this month. It has played three teams in BCS conferences and lost to them all. It lost to Harvard Princeton. Yeah, I have seen UNC come back from the dead a number of times and play consistently well the rest of the year. But, if you don't mind, FSU doesn't get ranked at the top of my list on the basis of two weeks of games. But, the Seminoles bear close watching.

UVa, Duke, and (yes) UNC have the best records, with some good wins and loss totals of 2, 3, and 3. All of the four teams (plus State) have lost only one ACC game.

I'd wait a couple of weeks before giving FSU the top spot.

sagegrouse

I am also wary of anointing FSU a frontrunner- they have been inconsistent in past seasons and they have some bad losses this year. BUt as I mentioned in the pre-game thread, getting Ian Miller back gives them one more outside threat, so I am not sure you can compare their performance before and after New Year's.

With their talent, experience, and depth, I would not at all be surprised to see them reach the Sweet Sixteen or Elite Eight.

jipops
01-22-2012, 06:00 PM
You mean the UNC team that lost by 33 a week ago? If the last shot didn't go in and we won in OT, would Duke get to be in your top two?

Nope. But if we played D yesterday then probably.

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Nope. But if we played D yesterday then probably.

Was our D better or worse than UNC's last week? I don't understand your logic.

jipops
01-22-2012, 08:58 PM
Was our D better or worse than UNC's last week? I don't understand your logic.

Better, but it has been an ongoing issue all season. I think UNC's loss was complacency and a total lack of preparedness, something often found at some point in the season for a Roy Williams coached team. They ran into a very mature team that was ready to take advantage of that. We have been having issues on defense for some time and our Kenpom defensive efficiency has been trending downward as the season as gone on and ACC play has begun. Despite laying a stink egg in Tallahassee, I see no reason to not believe that UNC is still the best team in the ACC.

I'm not so sure we win yesterday if FSU does not hit that 3. Their offense was remarkably efficient in the 2nd half. I don't know what the points per possession was for them but it had to be very high. We showed no ability to get stops, even in our house.

Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not down on our team as a result of yesterday. I'm very, very pleased with how this team has progressed offensively given the lack of a true point guard and no established leader. I think that is true testament to K's work as a coach. To put out the kind of offensive production we had yesterday against one of the better defensive teams in the country is very gratifying. Our guys fought extremely hard and well on the offensive end. Unfortunately the other end of the floor that our coach has historically valued the most continues to have problems.

Greg_Newton
01-22-2012, 09:21 PM
Was our D better or worse than UNC's last week? I don't understand your logic.

To be fair, the adjusted defensive rankings over the season are:

UNC: #9
Duke: #84

Regardless of this past week, they have been a vastly superior defensive team.

wavedukefan70s
01-22-2012, 09:34 PM
Duke will be fine.we are getting better.i have faith we will adjust to a defense that will work for this team.if its still the same around the state game feb 16 ill be concerned.;)coach K will have the defense figured out one way or the other.;)

Kedsy
01-22-2012, 09:45 PM
To be fair, the adjusted defensive rankings over the season are:

UNC: #9
Duke: #84

Regardless of this past week, they have been a vastly superior defensive team.

Also, to be fair, that #9 was compiled with Strickland. My guess is without him they are not vastly superior on defense at all, because now they're going to have the same problem with perimeter defense that we have. OK, not exactly the same because their guys are much bigger than our guys, but they don't have anyone quick enough to defend quick penetrating guards. Obviously we'll have to wait and see if I'm right on that prediction.

Also, if you're going by Pomeroy, we're still the 2nd best team in the conference, despite FSU's recent surge (well, we're slightly behind UVa, but they just suffered a big injury also, so I think we're ahead).

SupaDave
01-22-2012, 09:51 PM
To be fair, the adjusted defensive rankings over the season are:

UNC: #9
Duke: #84

Regardless of this past week, they have been a vastly superior defensive team.

Well kinda - look at their schedule up until now. Cupcake city from Dec. 6 to Jan 10, all at home. And then on the 14th they WENT to FSU. Got a taste of some real action.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/schedule/NC/

Greg_Newton
01-22-2012, 10:23 PM
Well kinda - look at their schedule up until now. Cupcake city from Dec. 6 to Jan 10, all at home. And then on the 14th they WENT to FSU. Got a taste of some real action.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/schedule/NC/

Well, kenpom supposedly adjusts for all that. It's not a perfect measure, but it's usually not that far off.

mo.st.dukie
01-22-2012, 10:25 PM
Well kinda - look at their schedule up until now. Cupcake city from Dec. 6 to Jan 10, all at home. And then on the 14th they WENT to FSU. Got a taste of some real action.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/schedule/NC/

"Adjusted" means Pomeroy's efficiency ratings are adjusted for SOS, Opponents D and O efficiency ratings, where the game is played, etc.

gofurman
01-22-2012, 11:17 PM
bears mentioning I dont ever like playing any game - much less fsu - on one/two day rest. I dont think teams should have to play Thurs then Satday. If you play Thursday then you should play Sunday in my opinion... Ill have to look but I bet we done have to play on one break day again. edit: I was wrong , we have it again but not as hard: at fsu then vs vt. so one day break but vt coming in is not as hard on the back side of that.

unc does it once - vs GT and then at Wake after one day rest.. not a tough run.

SupaDave
01-22-2012, 11:23 PM
I'm not sure how much you can adjust for CUPCAKE CITY!!!! Elon (9-9), App. State (8-10), Nicholls St. (5-13), Monmouth (4-17), BC (7-12), Texas (12-7), and Evansville (10-9)? CUPCAKE CITY!

mo.st.dukie
01-22-2012, 11:23 PM
bears mentioning I dont ever like playing any game - much less fsu - on one/two day rest. I dont think teams should have to play Thurs then Satday. If you play Thursday then you should play Sunday in my opinion... Ill have to look but I bet we done have to play on one break day again.

I think it's great, that's the NCAA Tournament, and just about every tournament. Duke will have to play 3 games in 3 days to win the ACC Tournament, if they get a bye. That's what you prepare for, this was great preparation for the tournament. I wish the ACC played Big Monday like the Big East and Big 12 that way you get Saturday/Monday turnarounds all conference season. Heck, that's the Final Four and National Championship which are played on a Saturday/Monday turnaround. This was like playing the first weekend for a 2 seeded Duke team, play a 15 seed Wake Forest then a really good 7 seed Florida State (FSU probably a higher caliber than a 7 seed but it is possible to see some really good teams at the 7 just like we did in 09 with Texas and 08 with WVU.).

gofurman
01-22-2012, 11:33 PM
I think it's great, that's the NCAA Tournament, and just about every tournament. Duke will have to play 3 games in 3 days to win the ACC Tournament, if they get a bye. That's what you prepare for, this was great preparation for the tournament. I wish the ACC played Big Monday like the Big East and Big 12 that way you get Saturday/Monday turnarounds all conference season. Heck, that's the Final Four and National Championship which are played on a Saturday/Monday turnaround. This was like playing the first weekend for a 2 seeded Duke team, play a 15 seed Wake Forest then a really good 7 seed Florida State (FSU probably a higher caliber than a 7 seed but it is possible to see some really good teams at the 7 just like we did in 09 with Texas and 08 with WVU.).

this is a good point and one i considered.. i guess i am looking at the trees and not forest - i think having one day to prep for a rested fsu team (they had several days off) is lookin' for a regular seaon losss. but it does prep you for the tournament. of course, to be fair (not that anything is) it would be more even if fsu only had a day or two to prep for us - they played maryland on the 17th before playin' us on the 21st

roywhite
01-22-2012, 11:48 PM
I think it's great, that's the NCAA Tournament, and just about every tournament. Duke will have to play 3 games in 3 days to win the ACC Tournament, if they get a bye. That's what you prepare for, this was great preparation for the tournament. I wish the ACC played Big Monday like the Big East and Big 12 that way you get Saturday/Monday turnarounds all conference season. Heck, that's the Final Four and National Championship which are played on a Saturday/Monday turnaround. This was like playing the first weekend for a 2 seeded Duke team, play a 15 seed Wake Forest then a really good 7 seed Florida State (FSU probably a higher caliber than a 7 seed but it is possible to see some really good teams at the 7 just like we did in 09 with Texas and 08 with WVU.).

hmmmm....have I read that comparison somewhere?

roywhite's comments from the pre-game FSU thread:

Reminds me so much of an NCAA Tournament first weekend....

Let's say Duke is a #2 seed
They play a #15 seed first on Thursday evening....Wake is about as good as a lower small conference rep
Duke wins by a good margin, subsitutes liberally in 2nd half, and the game gets sloppy

Now comes a tough #7 seed on Saturday afternoon
FSU seems about like a tough #7.....some losses sprinkled in with some impressive wins
Long, physical team; streaky shooters, not a great overall backcourt



Well, let's hope the experience of this weekend proves valuable in our tournament preparation.

Kedsy
01-23-2012, 12:50 AM
I'm not sure how much you can adjust for CUPCAKE CITY!!!! Elon (9-9), App. State (8-10), Nicholls St. (5-13), Monmouth (4-17), BC (7-12), Texas (12-7), and Evansville (10-9)? CUPCAKE CITY!

This is a good point, and one I've often wondered about Pomeroy's rankings. He attempts to adjust, but I'm not sure it's a continuum. To me, in real life, it should be sort of tiered. For example, would anyone here think the scoring totals would be significantly different if Duke played Charleston Southern instead of Presbyterian? Yet Charleston Southern (who lost by 25 to FSU and 28 to Wichita State) is ranked #154 in Pomeroy while Presbyterian is ranked #256. And I'm sure in the world of the Big South, Charleston Southern is truly much better than Presbyterian, but if they both played Duke at Duke, the margins and points per possession would probably be similar.

If I'm right and the teams should be grouped into tiers (which would be terribly subjective and difficult for a system like Pomeroy's to do), then if two teams play a different amount of games against each tier then Pomeroy's adjustments probably won't work properly.

Just a thought.

uh_no
01-23-2012, 01:12 AM
This is a good point, and one I've often wondered about Pomeroy's rankings. He attempts to adjust, but I'm not sure it's a continuum. To me, in real life, it should be sort of tiered. For example, would anyone here think the scoring totals would be significantly different if Duke played Charleston Southern instead of Presbyterian? Yet Charleston Southern (who lost by 25 to FSU and 28 to Wichita State) is ranked #154 in Pomeroy while Presbyterian is ranked #256. And I'm sure in the world of the Big South, Charleston Southern is truly much better than Presbyterian, but if they both played Duke at Duke, the margins and points per possession would probably be similar.

If I'm right and the teams should be grouped into tiers (which would be terribly subjective and difficult for a system like Pomeroy's to do), then if two teams play a different amount of games against each tier then Pomeroy's adjustments probably won't work properly.

Just a thought.

I'm not sure, but i was under the impression that a teams defense is adjusted based on the opposing teams adjusted offense, which means that while presbyterian and charleston south could be 100 place off in ranking, their adjusted offense (and likely overall efficiency) is only off by a very tiny amount, so the actual place that they are ranked is really of much less importance

toooskies
01-23-2012, 03:09 AM
I'm not sure, but i was under the impression that a teams defense is adjusted based on the opposing teams adjusted offense, which means that while presbyterian and charleston south could be 100 place off in ranking, their adjusted offense (and likely overall efficiency) is only off by a very tiny amount, so the actual place that they are ranked is really of much less importance

Having paid attention to KenPom closely for the past year or two, I would say that there are definitely "kinks" in the system. I tend to see numbers where a team's defense looks outstanding, it's often because they played hard against mediocre competition, so they beat the bad teams on their schedule by 60 instead of 40.

I'd also like to believe that offenses dictate more of a basketball game than the defense; i.e., a defender can play the best possible D, yet the offensive player can still make a shot. I believe KenPom may weigh this differently and not scale defenses based on their opponents.

Because Duke has had so few cream-puff games this year, we don't have any of that kind of statistical skewing going on. Our numbers are much more "real". We've also had a lot more teams playing catch-up on us, where we'll play a solid 30 minutes of D, and then when the other team presses, we start giving up baskets.

Undisputably, though, a site like KenPom doesn't track mid-season changes. It values game 1 as much as game 20 when looking at game 21. If FSU is as much better on offense as their past week has led us to believe, then FSU's impact on our defensive rating will shrink as the year goes on.

Objectively, though, we're still playing some bad defense.

Steven43
01-23-2012, 09:21 AM
dre didn't cover....


austin SHOULD have been shooting the +1 on his last basket.....


arrghh...

You're probably right, but are you confident that Austin would have made the free throw anyway? I'm not.

Steven43
01-23-2012, 09:39 AM
Jim Thacker and the Pilot Life song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HznVEfzaEl8)...ah, you're stirring pleasant memories in my mind!

I just watched the Pilot Life video and have no idea what that was about or why it was posted in connection with Jim Thacker and ACC basketball. If you don't mind, would you please explain? Thanks.

Steven43
01-23-2012, 10:35 AM
Congratulations on your personal epiphany, but maybe trolling a post-game thread immediately after a heartbreaking loss with comments like "You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about", calling posters "foolish" and their opinions "ludicrous", defending FSU players classless trash talking and getting fans facing after the game ("benign gestures"? Spoken like someone who was not present for their little display...), and incorrectly, inexplicably nitpicking posts (Saying that the a foul call on the Rivers layup would have made no difference? Seriously? We would have had time to gather ourselves, SET OUR DEFENSE, possibly take the lead, then force FSU to go the length of the court off of a dead ball under 5 seconds with no timeouts. Guarantee that doesn't end in an uncontested shot.).

So maybe you've separated yourself from Duke basketball and try to play devil's advocate - no matter how irrational - but some of us were at the game screaming our hearts out for two hours with the team. If you're so at peace with everything, I'd suggest avoiding being an extremely confrontational, anti-Duke poster on post-game threads where more emotionally invested fans are already on edge.

Greg, I don't get the feeling that feldspar is being 'anti-duke' with his comments, but is definitely being provocative and arrogant. By the way, what exactly did the FSU players do to taunt the fans after the game? I was there, but was focused on Austin Rivers from the end of the game through the post-game handshakes. Did the FSU antics happen after that? I wish I had paid more attention.

roywhite
01-23-2012, 10:45 AM
I just watched the Pilot Life video and have no idea what that was about or why it was posted in connection with Jim Thacker and ACC basketball. If you don't mind, would you please explain? Thanks.

Pilot Life was one of the original sponsors of ACC basketball. Before there was wall-to-wall TV coverage on cable, there was an ACC game of the week broadcast in the region, and it was a huge event.
If you watched the ACC broadcasts, you heard the Pilot Life jingle a zillion times (it may have annoyed some after a while, but most liked it, I think). And the best broadcasts IMO had the announcing team of Thacker, Packer, and Bones---that is, Jim Thacker for play-by-play, Billy Packer for analysis, and Bones McKinney for general hilarity.

If you want a real history lesson, check out this story by our own Jim Sumner. (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/121907aaa.html)

superdave
01-23-2012, 11:25 AM
"Meanwhile top-10 Duke, (http://www.accsports.com/articles/2012012212072/jacobs-an-old-school-acc-classic.php) with half as many losses as Florida State, seems more the team in search of its comfort level.

Nothing is obviously wrong and yet nothing is entirely right. No squad member has achieved reliable game-to-game consistency. There is no clear defensive stopper, no certain go-to guy. Blue Devil big men dominated the boards in the first half against FSU, with 10 offensive rebounds, and were in turn dominated in the second.

Duke’s perimeter players tend to rise and fall in performance and prominence like horses on a carousel. Three different Devils operate at point guard.

Just as the team’s media game notes proclaimed Quinn Cook “Settles in at the Point,” the freshman played one minute against Florida State. That invisibility was less a reflection on Cook than on the intensity and adult-only tenor of the action. "

Kedsy
01-23-2012, 12:13 PM
I'm not sure, but i was under the impression that a teams defense is adjusted based on the opposing teams adjusted offense, which means that while presbyterian and charleston south could be 100 place off in ranking, their adjusted offense (and likely overall efficiency) is only off by a very tiny amount, so the actual place that they are ranked is really of much less importance

Well, first of all, his overall ranking is a function of the offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency, and I was talking generally about his adjusting both offensive and defensive rankings. But specifically in my example, Charleston Southern has the 101st ranked offense in Pomeroy and Presbyterian has the 237th ranked offense. But if both played Duke in Cameron, my guess is their scoring output would be similar. If so, Pomeroy's adjustment would be misleading.


Undisputably, though, a site like KenPom doesn't track mid-season changes. It values game 1 as much as game 20 when looking at game 21.

Actually, I don't think this is true. According to his help page (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/help_with_team_page/), more recent games get more weight.

feldspar
01-23-2012, 12:38 PM
So maybe you've separated yourself from Duke basketball and try to play devil's advocate - no matter how irrational - but some of us were at the game screaming our hearts out for two hours with the team. If you're so at peace with everything, I'd suggest avoiding being an extremely confrontational, anti-Duke poster on post-game threads where more emotionally invested fans are already on edge.

"He's an angry elf...."

You're getting really creating your own personal characterization of me.

I never said I've separated myself from Duke basketball. And calling me "anti-Duke" is just plain laughable, because none of my posts say anything negative about Duke. And I never defended the actions of any FSU players. I merely said a reaction of the sort we saw on Saturday is certainly understandable given the verbal "abuse" the Crazies hand out to players night in and night out. I'm really not sure what you don't understand about that.

I also think this point is salient: I'm not playing devil's advocate. I really believe everything I've posted in this thread (ok, maybe except for the thing about a foul on Austin not affecting the outcome of the last 5 seconds. That I'll concede, as several have made very good points on that front...). I'm not trying to stir the pot or get anyone upset. I'm just giving my opinions, which people are wont to do on an internet message board. If you are upset or offended by my comments, that's more a reflection on you than it is on me.

And, I still stand by my statements that saying because you don't agree with their calls that three veteran ACC officials don't know how to do their jobs is absolutely both ignorant and foolish.

If you're "on edge," just remember that you have the ability and the opportunity to take a step back from the edge and realize that it's not a matter of life and death, and you can choose not to get so upset about everything.

Saratoga2
01-23-2012, 12:48 PM
"Meanwhile top-10 Duke, (http://www.accsports.com/articles/2012012212072/jacobs-an-old-school-acc-classic.php) with half as many losses as Florida State, seems more the team in search of its comfort level.

Nothing is obviously wrong and yet nothing is entirely right. No squad member has achieved reliable game-to-game consistency. There is no clear defensive stopper, no certain go-to guy. Blue Devil big men dominated the boards in the first half against FSU, with 10 offensive rebounds, and were in turn dominated in the second.

Duke’s perimeter players tend to rise and fall in performance and prominence like horses on a carousel. Three different Devils operate at point guard.

Just as the team’s media game notes proclaimed Quinn Cook “Settles in at the Point,” the freshman played one minute against Florida State. That invisibility was less a reflection on Cook than on the intensity and adult-only tenor of the action. "

I haven't heard whether Quinn is injured or just not perceived up to the competition in the last game. Is there any information on that? Personally, I thought Seth had kind of a tough shooting night and more variety at guard might have helped.

superdave
01-23-2012, 01:19 PM
I haven't heard whether Quinn is injured or just not perceived up to the competition in the last game. Is there any information on that? Personally, I thought Seth had kind of a tough shooting night and more variety at guard might have helped.

We know Quinn tweaked his knee a week ago and he showed some ill effects against Clemson. So my guess is they are resting him out of concern and caution. Also, as a freshman, I'm assuming Coach K feels that if Quinn cannot practice at full speed then he's unlikely to be an asset to the team in a game, particularly a physical one.

Lid
01-23-2012, 03:53 PM
I haven't heard whether Quinn is injured or just not perceived up to the competition in the last game. Is there any information on that? Personally, I thought Seth had kind of a tough shooting night and more variety at guard might have helped.

I just saw this link -- the official word is that it's a knee bruise (http://blogs.newsobserver.com/dukenow/dukes-cook-suffering-from-knee-bruise). Here's hoping that means he recovers quickly with no lingering effects.

Bob Green
01-23-2012, 07:41 PM
Pilot Life was one of the original sponsors of ACC basketball. Before there was wall-to-wall TV coverage on cable, there was an ACC game of the week broadcast in the region, and it was a huge event.
If you watched the ACC broadcasts, you heard the Pilot Life jingle a zillion times (it may have annoyed some after a while, but most liked it, I think).

Thanks for providing an explanation to Steven43 as I've been off the net all day. To this day, I love to listen to the Pilot Life jingle!

Newton_14
01-23-2012, 08:39 PM
Thanks for providing an explanation to Steven43 as I've been off the net all day. To this day, I love to listen to the Pilot Life jingle!

Thread hijack alert!

"Sail with the Pilot...." I am 45 and that song is fully embedded in my brain. Since we are going down memory lane, remember the "Holly Farms Chicken Player Of The Game" on those Jefferson Pilot ACC games? My dad (God Rest His Soul), was a huge UNC fan. There was a stretch in the early-mid 70's where every time UNC played in the game of the week, Phil Ford would win the Player of The Game. I would chide my dad once UNC went into the 4 Corners with something like "Well here we go dad, looks like Phil Ford is going to win the "Chicken of The Game" award again, since they can' t win unless they play that chicken 4 corners" :)

Fun times. We always watched those games as a family. It was a way of life. And people are still amazed when I tell them that each year on ACC Tournament Friday, the schools set up TV's in several rooms and class was stopped so all could watch the games. Elementary and Middle School. In High School we cut class and went to someone's house and watched the tourney.

We probably should start a thread on this topic.. the Dixie Classic, the Big Four, Jefferson-Pilot ACC Telecasts with Thacker, Packer, and Bones...those were the days.

uh_no
01-23-2012, 08:40 PM
Well, first of all, his overall ranking is a function of the offensive efficiency and defensive efficiency, and I was talking generally about his adjusting both offensive and defensive rankings. But specifically in my example, Charleston Southern has the 101st ranked offense in Pomeroy and Presbyterian has the 237th ranked offense. But if both played Duke in Cameron, my guess is their scoring output would be similar. If so, Pomeroy's adjustment would be misleading.


I think my point was that it doesn't matter what the actual ranking is, it matters what the adjusted O actually is, and in this case, despite the 100+ ranking difference, their rating is only 8 points different, whereas the difference between the 1st and 10th ranked teams is also 8 points.....so i think my point is that it doesn't matter that they're hundreds of places off....since their actual adjusted offense is actually very close, and it is that number (and NOT the ranking) that is what is used when calculating the other teams adjusted D. one team could be ranked 5 and the other ranked 300, and if there adjusted O was only a tenth of a point off, it would hardly make a difference to their opponents, regardless of the huge ranking differences


Anyway, the point is that the adjustment is not misleading, because the rankings aren't what matters, the ratings are.

Neals384
01-23-2012, 09:43 PM
Several posters have faulted Andre for being too far in the paint and leaving Snaer open. But I haven't heard anyone mention that Mason was very slow in getting downcourt. Instead he tried to provide full-court pressure on the ball with Seth. I'm pretty sure that's not Mason's role in that situation.

If Mason gets back to the paint on time, then Andre can cover Snaer.

Neals384
01-23-2012, 09:47 PM
"He's an angry elf...."



Give it a rest, feldspar and everyone else. Personal attacks are out of bounds on this site, right?

Newton_14
01-23-2012, 09:54 PM
Several posters have faulted Andre for being too far in the paint and leaving Snaer open. But I haven't heard anyone mention that Mason was very slow in getting downcourt. Instead he tried to provide full-court pressure on the ball with Seth. I'm pretty sure that's not Mason's role in that situation.

If Mason gets back to the paint on time, then Andre can cover Snaer.

If I recall correctly, Mason's man inbounded the ball, so his job was to pressure the inbounder and help apply pressure in the backcourt. On an inbounds play just prior, Mason and Seth set the great trap in the corner.

I think folks may be trying too hard to point blame to individuals on that play. The team transition defense failed them in a scramble situation, and the FSU kids made a great play under tremendous game pressure. The pass was brilliant, and Snaer knocked the shot down in a high pressure situation. You tip your hat and move on.

Most teams would have panicked and the kid driving would have launched a desperation shot from just inside half-court ( which is exactly what I thought was getting ready to happen) but FSU did not panick and instead made a winning play. All 5 Duke kids would probably make different decisions with their actions on the play, in hindsight.

Kedsy
01-23-2012, 10:31 PM
I think my point was that it doesn't matter what the actual ranking is, it matters what the adjusted O actually is, and in this case, despite the 100+ ranking difference, their rating is only 8 points different, whereas the difference between the 1st and 10th ranked teams is also 8 points.....so i think my point is that it doesn't matter that they're hundreds of places off....since their actual adjusted offense is actually very close, and it is that number (and NOT the ranking) that is what is used when calculating the other teams adjusted D. one team could be ranked 5 and the other ranked 300, and if there adjusted O was only a tenth of a point off, it would hardly make a difference to their opponents, regardless of the huge ranking differences


Anyway, the point is that the adjustment is not misleading, because the rankings aren't what matters, the ratings are.

Well, if that's the case, why all the hand wringing over our being ranked 89th in defensive efficiency. We're only 8 points away from being 11th!

I guess my point was I think you are underestimating how much an 8 point difference means in the calculation. It's a huge difference.

throatybeard
01-23-2012, 11:55 PM
Thread hijack alert!

"Sail with the Pilot...." I am 45 and that song is fully embedded in my brain. Since we are going down memory lane, remember the "Holly Farms Chicken Player Of The Game" on those Jefferson Pilot ACC games? My dad (God Rest His Soul), was a huge UNC fan. There was a stretch in the early-mid 70's where every time UNC played in the game of the week, Phil Ford would win the Player of The Game. I would chide my dad once UNC went into the 4 Corners with something like "Well here we go dad, looks like Phil Ford is going to win the "Chicken of The Game" award again, since they can' t win unless they play that chicken 4 corners" :)

Fun times. We always watched those games as a family. It was a way of life. And people are still amazed when I tell them that each year on ACC Tournament Friday, the schools set up TV's in several rooms and class was stopped so all could watch the games. Elementary and Middle School. In High School we cut class and went to someone's house and watched the tourney.

We probably should start a thread on this topic.. the Dixie Classic, the Big Four, Jefferson-Pilot ACC Telecasts with Thacker, Packer, and Bones...those were the days.

Ah, Dinah Shore, where are you now. Oh yeah, dead for close to two decades. Dang. I wonder if Holly Farms still exists.

I think my favorite when I was a kid--I'm gen X so I already had a finely tuned sense of irony/lameness/meta- when I issued from the womb, that's just how we do--was the Jeff Pilot commercial where the couple mildly argued about their insurance, and one said there was an aunt who lived to 103 (indicating heritable longevity) and the other said the woman was adopted. It was so fail that it was funny, in 1987.

dball
01-24-2012, 12:38 AM
Pilot Life was one of the original sponsors of ACC basketball. Before there was wall-to-wall TV coverage on cable, there was an ACC game of the week broadcast in the region, and it was a huge event.
If you watched the ACC broadcasts, you heard the Pilot Life jingle a zillion times (it may have annoyed some after a while, but most liked it, I think). And the best broadcasts IMO had the announcing team of Thacker, Packer, and Bones---that is, Jim Thacker for play-by-play, Billy Packer for analysis, and Bones McKinney for general hilarity.
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Would agree about Jim, Billy and Bones. Loved that crew. Since we seem to be taking a bit of turn, it was claimed on more than one occasion that UNC received favorable television timeout calls from certain floor managers. Rumors indicated Dean would indicate when such TOs should be called. Allegedly, this is what led to the standardization of TV timeouts we have now.

Of course, there was also the stall ball game where they cut to commercial while the game was live (though actionless).

Greg_Newton
01-24-2012, 12:45 AM
I don't have much else to say to you, so I'll let you speak for yourself...


And I never defended the actions of any FSU players.


Well, when you spend the whole game taking a verbal beating from the student section, you should be allowed to give a little back after sticking a dagger in their hearts.


I find it not at all shocking or surprising or offensive that whatever FSU player it was made certain benign gestures at the Cameron Crazies at the end of the game. If you're going to give, give, give to opposing players night in and night out, occasionally, just occasionally, you gotta be willing to take when the ball doesn't bounce your way.

--------------


I'm not trying to stir the pot or get anyone upset. I'm just giving my opinions, which people are wont to do on an internet message board. If you are upset or offended by my comments, that's more a reflection on you than it is on me.

[IMMEDIATELY after Duke's last-second loss, in response to a poster who dared question the officiating:]
I just really don't know where people get off with this kind of attitude. You have absolutely no clue in the world about what you're talking about... [your post] is just ludicrous, and it makes you look foolish.

-------------


I never said I've separated myself from Duke basketball.


One of the things I've come to learn in the last few years of being a Duke fan is that the losses are way easier to take when you turn down the tint on your Duke-blue glasses... [my posts] are a byproduct of my new found ability to look at things through a prism that's not quite so skewed in the direction of Cameron Indoor Stadium. I happen to enjoy my new outlook.

JNort
01-24-2012, 02:53 AM
Give it a rest, feldspar and everyone else. Personal attacks are out of bounds on this site, right?

Idk I am definitely with Feldspar on this one. He is just bringing a neutral view to the the loss which is much better than what most are doing on here and it is much more helpful not to mention he has been right throughout most this thread. Greg should just stop beating the dead horse already and let it go.

Just my .02 on this whole thing and idk why a mod has not put a stop to it yet.

NSDukeFan
01-24-2012, 03:18 PM
If I recall correctly, Mason's man inbounded the ball, so his job was to pressure the inbounder and help apply pressure in the backcourt. On an inbounds play just prior, Mason and Seth set the great trap in the corner.

I think folks may be trying too hard to point blame to individuals on that play. The team transition defense failed them in a scramble situation, and the FSU kids made a great play under tremendous game pressure. The pass was brilliant, and Snaer knocked the shot down in a high pressure situation. You tip your hat and move on.

Most teams would have panicked and the kid driving would have launched a desperation shot from just inside half-court ( which is exactly what I thought was getting ready to happen) but FSU did not panick and instead made a winning play. All 5 Duke kids would probably make different decisions with their actions on the play, in hindsight.

I thought it was Mason's man (Bernard James) who set the screen on Seth (perfect screen and perfectly executed by Loucks), so Mason was trying to help Seth, as he did not make it through the screen (which was the key to the whole play, IMO.)

One other addition to the thread I will make is that, although I like the Seth-Austin-Andre backcourt the best, I felt like this was a Thornton type game as toughness was key and TT always brings the toughness.

sagegrouse
01-24-2012, 04:23 PM
I thought it was Mason's man (Bernard James) who set the screen on Seth (perfect screen and perfectly executed by Loucks), so Mason was trying to help Seth, as he did not make it through the screen (which was the key to the whole play, IMO.)

One other addition to the thread I will make is that, although I like the Seth-Austin-Andre backcourt the best, I felt like this was a Thornton type game as toughness was key and TT always brings the toughness.

Shouldn't K have called timeout after Austin scored, or was FSU too quick with the inbounds pass? -- sage

Duvall
01-24-2012, 04:32 PM
Shouldn't K have called timeout after Austin scored, or was FSU too quick with the inbounds pass? -- sage

No timeouts left.

sagegrouse
01-24-2012, 04:37 PM
No timeouts left.

Aha! So, the ever-so-miserly Dean Smith and Roy Williams would have been able to stop FSU on the last play? -- sage

shoutingncu
01-24-2012, 05:07 PM
Aha! So, the ever-so-miserly Dean Smith and Roy Williams would have been able to stop FSU on the last play? -- sage

Clearly Roy Williams would have been able to... FSU would have won by 36 if not for Roy's "run-and-hide" defense.

Steven43
01-24-2012, 05:10 PM
Shouldn't K have called timeout after Austin scored, or was FSU too quick with the inbounds pass? -- sage

Why should Duke have called a timeout? All that would do is allow FSU to set up a play. You could argue that would allow us to set up our defense, but as mediocre as our defense has been, why would you want to do that at the potentially greater risk of allowing them to draw up a play?

ncexnyc
01-24-2012, 05:35 PM
Why should Duke have called a timeout? All that would do is allow FSU to set up a play. You could argue that would allow us to set up our defense, but as mediocre as our defense has been, why would you want to do that at the potentially greater risk of allowing them to draw up a play?
I believe this is exactly why you'd want to call a timeout. If your players are solid defenders they know exactly what to do. If they've shown themselves to have defensive lapses, which they have, then you call the timeout to let everyone know exactly what they're supposed to do.

jv001
01-24-2012, 05:41 PM
I thought it was Mason's man (Bernard James) who set the screen on Seth (perfect screen and perfectly executed by Loucks), so Mason was trying to help Seth, as he did not make it through the screen (which was the key to the whole play, IMO.)

One other addition to the thread I will make is that, although I like the Seth-Austin-Andre backcourt the best, I felt like this was a Thornton type game as toughness was key and TT always brings the toughness.

Maybe Coach K was afraid that Tyler would foul in that situation and they were in the 2 shot foul situation if I remember correctly. GoDuke!

NSDukeFan
01-24-2012, 05:55 PM
Maybe Coach K was afraid that Tyler would foul in that situation and they were in the 2 shot foul situation if I remember correctly. GoDuke!

I was thinking about the game in general and not the final play. I have no problem with the lineup the team had at the end of the game. I generally like the toughness TT brings, especially in a physical game.

Steven43
01-24-2012, 05:57 PM
I believe this is exactly why you'd want to call a timeout. If your players are solid defenders they know exactly what to do. If they've shown themselves to have defensive lapses, which they have, then you call the timeout to let everyone know exactly what they're supposed to do.

I think offenses do a lot better when they have time to catch their breath and draw up a solid play. The fact that FSU hit the shot does not change that. I would guess that seven times out of ten that would not score in that situation. I think the odds are greater that they would score at least one point with time to set up a play.

jv001
01-24-2012, 06:00 PM
I was thinking about the game in general and not the final play. I have no problem with the lineup the team had at the end of the game. I generally like the toughness TT brings, especially in a physical game.

Sorry, I thought you meant the end of game play. I too like Tyler's toughness. I think that he and Miles are our two toughest players. GoDuke!

Kedsy
01-24-2012, 07:10 PM
I think offenses do a lot better when they have time to catch their breath and draw up a solid play. The fact that FSU hit the shot does not change that. I would guess that seven times out of ten that would not score in that situation. I think the odds are greater that they would score at least one point with time to set up a play.

With just a few seconds left, occasionally you see a well drawn play yield the winning shot (e.g., Duke/Kentucky '92; Cincinnati/Duke '98 (fall); Valparaiso/Mississippi State '98 (spring), to name a few). But it seems more often you see those sorts of game-winners when both teams are scrambling. In the case of Duke/Florida State '12, I agree with those who think we would have been better off with our defense set and coached on what to do.

throatybeard
01-24-2012, 07:28 PM
Valparaiso/Mississippi State '98

Ahem.

Ole Miss. Valpo/Ole Miss.

The Rebels or Confederates or Black Bears or whatever they're called.

(I'm still having trouble understanding how a bear got conscripted into the Confederate army).

Steven43
01-24-2012, 07:32 PM
With just a few seconds left, occasionally you see a well drawn play yield the winning shot (e.g., Duke/Kentucky '92; Cincinnati/Duke '98 (fall); Valparaiso/Mississippi State '98 (spring), to name a few). But it seems more often you see those sorts of game-winners when both teams are scrambling. In the case of Duke/Florida State '12, I agree with those who think we would have been better off with our defense set and coached on what to do.

Our defense is coached on what to do in every conceivable game situation, and how well have they done this year? Most posters on this board think our defense has taken a dramatic turn for the worse this season. Allowing an offense time to draw up a play puts more pressure on our defense, not less.

Gewebe14
01-24-2012, 07:58 PM
Ahem.

Ole Miss. Valpo/Ole Miss.

The Rebels or Confederates or Black Bears or whatever they're called.

(I'm still having trouble understanding how a bear got conscripted into the Confederate army).

Actually, it is generally accepted in most scientific circles that a Bear can do anything he puts his mind to.

duke09hms
01-24-2012, 09:49 PM
This is how Luke Loucks, the FSU PG, described the winning play:

” ‘B.J.’ was setting a drag screen near midcourt. It ended up a little early, but it worked great. When I got free, there were a couple Duke defenders ahead of me. I was facing the shot clock and saw 2.1, so I knew I had time. I had Ryan [Kelly] in front of me and a few others on the wings.

“I was about to pull up and shoot a long, contested ‘3,’ then I looked up and saw Mike [Snaer] wide open. [B]Andre Dawkins was kind of watching the ball and lost Mike, so I passed it to him.”

Kedsy
01-24-2012, 10:14 PM
Ahem.

Ole Miss. Valpo/Ole Miss.

The Rebels or Confederates or Black Bears or whatever they're called.

(I'm still having trouble understanding how a bear got conscripted into the Confederate army).

Oops, my bad. I still stand by my point, though, which is it's better to call time out and set the defense.

devildeac
01-24-2012, 10:15 PM
Ahem.

Ole Miss. Valpo/Ole Miss.

The Rebels or Confederates or Black Bears or whatever they're called.

(I'm still having trouble understanding how a bear got conscripted into the Confederate army).

I guess by the end of the Civil War the Confederate Army was in pretty desperate shape so they had to get by on the bear necessities.:rolleyes:

Kfanarmy
01-25-2012, 01:39 AM
Idk I am definitely with Feldspar on this one. He is just bringing a neutral view to the the loss which is much better than what most are doing on here and it is much more helpful not to mention he has been right throughout most this thread. Greg should just stop beating the dead horse already and let it go.

Just my .02 on this whole thing and idk why a mod has not put a stop to it yet. I agree mods should put a stop to Feldspar telling others their opinions are foolish, ludicrous etc...