A Call to Arms to My Fellow Crazies

[BattierD12]

Over the past few years, I have seen many threads and discussions on this board and the Devil's Den on the current crop of Cameron Crazies and how they pale in comparison to the old days. I was a student at Duke from 2007 to 2011, but I have been fortunate to stay in Durham this year, and as a result, I am still going to all the games (minus the Wake game due to an insane fever). While I can't truly compare how the student section was with my predecessors, I was proud of the sixth man contribution at many of the games during my four year Duke tenure. The UNC-Duke game last year was by far the loudest I've ever heard Cameron, in person, and on TV. The large pot-bellied grad student who distracted one of the FT shooters by lifting his shirt at the Georgia Southern game a couple years back was classic and hearkened back to Speedo Guy. And who can forget all the taunting to Maryland and Grievous Vasquez during the game when we were up 60-20 at one point? Now, like I said, I do not truly know how Cameron had been before, but I contend that Cameron was still a clever and intimidating place during my years at Duke. The undefeated streak at Cameron that started my sophomore year is still going strong. You can argue that the ACC has been weaker the past couple of years, but it still stands that the student section has been a helping force.

But sadly, let us shift to this year.

Last week, we played #16 Virginia at home. This is arguably our second to best home game of the season behind UNC. In addition, this was the second day of the semester for students so studying/fatigue should have never been an issue. Returning to my domain in the student section, I began jumping up and down on every Virginia possession and doing the "drone" heckling. The usual stuff, right? To my absolute disgust, I was the only one in a 20 yard radius doing anything. Seriously? I'm not even a student and I was showing more passion in the game than the actual student/Crazies around me. I would usually see a crowd like this at an early season game, but against a top 20 team in ACC season? When Duke finally went on a run, it truly killed me inside to have to see Miles and Quinn try to pump up the crowd on essentially every play since there was still not that much energy. One could argue that this was even worse than the usual Parent's Weekend game.

I am glad I am not the only "student" who feels this way, as apparent by this blog entry written by a tenter that has been circulating on my Facebook news feed: http://kftfl.tumblr.com/post/16162058355/whats-wrong-with-cameron-indoor

Whenever the "older" Crazies bemoan us on DBR or Scout forums, I feel like us youth have usually tuned them out, which is why I hope fellow students calling attention to this will help improve the current state of Cameron. Now I realize that those students who read DBR are usually the hardcore Crazies doing what I do at every game, so I ask that you spread the word and help teach the other Crazies. What do I mean by that? Well for one, tell those around you who are doing the devil hand-hexing motion that we only do that during out of bounds play or when the opposing team enters the court, not during play, because that just looks silly. Let's get the basics done (making noise, being LOUD, and actually MOVING) before expecting this group to come up with clever cheers.

And if you're a senior who hasn't gone to many games this year (like many that I know), I hope you will attend the rest of the games this semester. Most of you have landed jobs and gotten into med/law/grad schools, so you really have no excuse to miss a game - none at all. This will also be my last semester of Duke Basketball games at Cameron (my second "last semester" haha), and I know I will miss being in the student section. Don't take for granted the opportunity you have here.

Sorry if my rambling rant/plea was ridiculously long. Just had to get it out.

[dbowen]

I was not at the Virginia game last week, but I was astounded by the lack of 'craziness' for the majority of the game. Watching it on tv may have skewed it a little, but as you said in your post; when our own players have to try to pump up the crowd during a tightly contested ACC game there isn't a whole lot of effort being put into the game from the crowd. Hopefully for the rest of the remaining games, we'll see a better atmosphere in Cameron! We need to keep that home court winning streak alive!

[Verga3]

Over the past few years, I have seen many threads and discussions on this board and the Devil's Den on the current crop of Cameron Crazies and how they pale in comparison to the old days. I was a student at Duke from 2007 to 2011, but I have been fortunate to stay in Durham this year, and as a result, I am still going to all the games (minus the Wake game due to an insane fever). While I can't truly compare how the student section was with my predecessors, I was proud of the sixth man contribution at many of the games during my four year Duke tenure. The UNC-Duke game last year was by far the loudest I've ever heard Cameron, in person, and on TV. The large pot-bellied grad student who distracted one of the FT shooters by lifting his shirt at the Georgia Southern game a couple years back was classic and hearkened back to Speedo Guy. And who can forget all the taunting to Maryland and Grievous Vasquez during the game when we were up 60-20 at one point? Now, like I said, I do not truly know how Cameron had been before, but I contend that Cameron was still a clever and intimidating place during my years at Duke. The undefeated streak at Cameron that started my sophomore year is still going strong. You can argue that the ACC has been weaker the past couple of years, but it still stands that the student section has been a helping force.

But sadly, let us shift to this year.



Last week, we played #16 Virginia at home. This is arguably our second to best home game of the season behind UNC. In addition, this was the second day of the semester for students so studying/fatigue should have never been an issue. Returning to my domain in the student section, I began jumping up and down on every Virginia possession and doing the "drone" heckling. The usual stuff, right? To my absolute disgust, I was the only one in a 20 yard radius doing anything. Seriously? I'm not even a student and I was showing more passion in the game than the actual student/Crazies around me. I would usually see a crowd like this at an early season game, but against a top 20 team in ACC season? When Duke finally went on a run, it truly killed me inside to have to see Miles and Quinn try to pump up the crowd on essentially every play since there was still not that much energy. One could argue that this was even worse than the usual Parent's Weekend game.

I am glad I am not the only "student" who feels this way, as apparent by this blog entry written by a tenter that has been circulating on my Facebook news feed: http://kftfl.tumblr.com/post/16162058355/whats-wrong-with-cameron-indoor

Whenever the "older" Crazies bemoan us on DBR or Scout forums, I feel like us youth have usually tuned them out, which is why I hope fellow students calling attention to this will help improve the current state of Cameron. Now I realize that those students who read DBR are usually the hardcore Crazies doing what I do at every game, so I ask that you spread the word and help teach the other Crazies. What do I mean by that? Well for one, tell those around you who are doing the devil hand-hexing motion that we only do that during out of bounds play or when the opposing team enters the court, not during play, because that just looks silly. Let's get the basics done (making noise, being LOUD, and actually MOVING) before expecting this group to come up with clever cheers.

And if you're a senior who hasn't gone to many games this year (like many that I know), I hope you will attend the rest of the games this semester. Most of you have landed jobs and gotten into med/law/grad schools, so you really have no excuse to miss a game - none at all. This will also be my last semester of Duke Basketball games at Cameron (my second "last semester" haha), and I know I will miss being in the student section. Don't take for granted the opportunity you have here.

Sorry if my rambling rant/plea was ridiculously long. Just had to get it out.

Terrific, heartfelt post, BattierD12!! The Cameron Crazie heritage should never be compromised or ever taken for granted. Your brave and honest post will hopefully motivate as Coach K did recently with Austin Rivers. We often don't like to hear the cold truth...but, we always grow when we do. Thanks for the wake up call. We are proud. We are DUKE!!!

[mkline09]

Very good post here that brings up a great point. I made a comment during the Wake game about how dead the crowd seemed and it seems like I wasn't the only one. Full disclosure, I didn't go to Duke, my older brother did from 86-90. I heard my fare share of great Cameron stories as the blog post linked mentioned. I became a huge fan of Duke Basketball as a result of my brother and that passion has never faded and never will. I learned my Duke history. I studied it. I study it to this day. I recently watched a 45 minute clip on the Duke- 1942 Rose Bowl for crying out loud.

The creativness of the Crazies is legendary, but it isn't a given year in and year out. I applaud the writer of that post. He hit the nail on several important parts to keeping the Cameron atmosphere great and I hope the students take that to heart and we see some of that firey, creative behavior that made Cameron the best college basketball arena in the country.

[Greg_Newton]

The thing is, it's not something you can force. The thing that made the old days so great was the borderline-unstable passion, along with great creativity and humor. They weren't nice kids attending a game and being part of tradition, they were maniacs giving their heart and soul to protect the ownership of their court.

It was kind of sad seeing a couple UVA fans in the student section, jumping around and being obnoxious all game, while the crazies just kind of meekly stood there and tried to ignore them. I'm sorry, but 20 years ago those UVA kids would have been mercilessly attacked and verbally abused by every student in attendance until they wished they'd never been born.

I think part of it is that students don't remember what it's like to not win 30 games a year, so there's less urgency, but also that the student population is generally more diverse and academically oriented than it used to be. You can't really force a nice kid to have that kind edge and awesomely unhealthy investment in the program if it doesn't come naturally.

[weezie]

You can't really force a nice kid to have that kind edge and awesomely unhealthy investment in the program....

Aw, Greg Newton, sure you can. Look at me! As a now admittedly Crustie Crazie, I used to be a nice kid, even if it was a few hundred years ago. I demand a stellar performance from our youngsters downstairs. What's more annoying than a kooky older female jumping around upstairs and blocking other people views?
Come on you whippersnappers, get with the program!

[Native]

I wrote that blog post. We the students are sick and tired of Cameron being stale, and starting tomorrow we're going to take it back. It's not going to happen all in one day, but I look forward to being the example.

I already feel sorry for the eardrums of whoever stands in front of me tomorrow.

Go Devils.

[mkline09]

I wrote that blog post. We the students are sick and tired of Cameron being stale, and starting tomorrow we're going to take it back. It's not going to happen all in one day, but I look forward to being the example.

I already feel sorry for the eardrums of whoever stands in front of me tomorrow.

Go Devils.

Kudos to your writing efforts. It was very well written articulated and dead on. As a long time fan I've noticed the same over the years and it is nice to see it is also noticed in the student body. The first part of solving a problem is admitting there is one. Good luck to you and the rest of your fellow Crazies. Get it done.

[the_grad_student]

A good start would be to actually learn the lyrics (and by that I mean about 30 words) of our own fight song that the band plays at least 3 times a game:

http://www.ncaawiki.com/index.php/Fight!_Blue_Devils,_Fight!

(with lyrical modifications in the obvious places...). Maybe one of these games we put this on the dirt sheet, as pathetic as it might be.

[NYBri]

There are a few traditions that seem to be on the downside. I remember when defense was the foundation of the team and the pride of the Crazies. Pounding the floor meant something and the crowd seemed to become the extra defender on the floor.

That seems to be gone.

I'll know we are where we need to be when we grab a lead, force a TO, drain a three and then pound the floor and step up the coverage and force another TO, and score on a break....TIME OUT called by the visitors!

THAT'S Crazy rock and roll.

[Duke76]

When I was there our reward for being first in line was front row seats with our feet on the floor, introduction were done with lights out and spotlight on the players, no friggin jumbotron and rap music....that jumbotron just draws attention away from the court and people looking up to see if they are on....IMO, it's a shame that students aren't behind the visitors bench down at least to the scorer's table....know I am not providing any fresh ideas but sometimes reinstituting what worked so well makes the most sense

[feldspar]

I only get to see the games on TV, but know I've seen on many occasions Coach K stand up and try and get the crowd up and loud...and not in a "let's go we need you" way, more in a "are you $%#& kidding me? Why aren't you on your $#@%^ feet screaming and yelling???"

Can't say I've seen that too many times other years.

[Olympic Fan]

When I was there our reward for being first in line was front row seats with our feet on the floor, introduction were done with lights out and spotlight on the players, no friggin jumbotron and rap music....that jumbotron just draws attention away from the court and people looking up to see if they are on....IMO, it's a shame that students aren't behind the visitors bench down at least to the scorer's table....know I am not providing any fresh ideas but sometimes reinstituting what worked so well makes the most sense

Don't blame press row ... that's been there since the early 1970s (and before that, the entire middle second of the bleachers was given to the press, although that did lead about 80 percent of the side court for students).

The biggest change in Cameron in the increase in sold or comp seats on the scorer's table side of Cameron. Up until about 8-9 years ago, about 80-90 percent of that side were under grad students -- just likie the press row side. Now, most of that side are ople who actually sit and watch the game. The floor used to be surrounded by screaming crazies ... now it's only one side and the two end zones.

I'm one old timer who has been a defender of the modern Crazies. Maybe not quote a creative as they were in the heydey of the 80s and early 90s, but every bit as loud and as enthusiastic.

But I do admit Cameron has lost something this year. The Wake game was the worst performance by the Crazies for an ACC game that I can remember.

[Verga3]

Aw, Greg Newton, sure you can. Look at me! As a now admittedly Crustie Crazie, I used to be a nice kid, even if it was a few hundred years ago. I demand a stellar performance from our youngsters downstairs. What's more annoying than a kooky older female jumping around upstairs and blocking other people views?
Come on you whippersnappers, get with the program!

Amen and Amen....Love you, weezie!!

[Verga3]

There are a few traditions that seem to be on the downside. I remember when defense was the foundation of the team and the pride of the Crazies. Pounding the floor meant something and the crowd seemed to become the extra defender on the floor.

That seems to be gone.

I'll know we are where we need to be when we grab a lead, force a TO, drain a three and then pound the floor and step up the coverage and force another TO, and score on a break....TIME OUT called by the visitors!

THAT'S Crazy rock and roll.

GREAT point, NYBri! I challenge TT or whomever has the "floor" to POUND THE FLOOR. This act epitomizes Duke basketball under Coach K. Let's get that feeling, guys!!

[cspan37421]

clearly, it's time for Occupy Cameron. "We ... are ... the 13%"

[ricks68]

This is really ridiculous. Considering the number of Duke students on campus and the top-notch basketball played at Duke, there is no excuse for the poor showing the we have seen off and on for a number of years, now. I have been outrageously lucky the past 5 years, being able to procure tickets to at least one game in Cameron each year. (Not so lucky this year, or for the future, as my source may have dried up.) While I am not the richest person in the world, I still took time off from work and spent my hard-earned dollars to return to my alma mater and support the tream while screaming my head off from way, way up in an end zone corner seat. It is difficult for me to understand how a student at Duke is unwilling to just walk across campus to attend a game with the best seats in the house; while I consider it a privilege to be able to fly halfway across the country, use work vacation days, and pay a lot of my hard-earned money to sit in a seat way up in the corner of the stands.

My father used to often repeat the quote: "It's a pity that youth is wasted on the young." I think that it is applicable in this case.

I applaud the comments so far on this thread. I wish I could be there to lend my support this year. Kudos to all of you.

Go Duke!!!

ricks

[bloodevil]

From 2 recent Iron Dukes emails:

Dear Iron Dukes member,

A special opportunity is available for select Iron Dukes members to purchase corner bleacher tickets in the Duke student section to the Duke vs. Virginia game on January 12th at 9 pm.

Dear Iron Dukes member,

Tickets are now available for all Iron Duke members in the corner bleachers of the Duke student section for the Duke vs. Wake Forest game on Thursday, January 19 at 7 pm and the Duke vs. Florida State game on Saturday, January 21 at 4 pm.

I think that this is a pretty clear indication of a lack of student interest.

[devildeac]

My sister-in-law (T-80), who lives in Lexington, Kin-tucky (aka the Land of the Missing D and E), also noted the lack of "Crazieness" during these 2 games as she watched from afar. She was sad as she remembers our generation there, along with the last couple decades worth of antics and fervor, too. So, Native, lead the charge, starting today vs f$u, and "reclaim" Our House!

Now excuse me as I go down my driveway and pick up my morning paper and get some of those %$#@ kids off my lawn:rolleyes::o.

[Sixthman]

The thing is, it's not something you can force. The thing that made the old days so great was the borderline-unstable passion, along with great creativity and humor. They weren't nice kids attending a game and being part of tradition, they were maniacs giving their heart and soul to protect the ownership of their court.

It was kind of sad seeing a couple UVA fans in the student section, jumping around and being obnoxious all game, while the crazies just kind of meekly stood there and tried to ignore them. I'm sorry, but 20 years ago those UVA kids would have been mercilessly attacked and verbally abused by every student in attendance until they wished they'd never been born.

I think part of it is that students don't remember what it's like to not win 30 games a year, so there's less urgency, but also that the student population is generally more diverse and academically oriented than it used to be. You can't really force a nice kid to have that kind edge and awesomely unhealthy investment in the program if it doesn't come naturally.


You nailed this.

[magjayran]

I was in the student section at the Wake game. I'm 32. I wasn't close to being the oldest person around. It seemed like about half of us in that section had gotten GA tickets for the game which means that folks anticipated that no students would show up. I participated in all the chanting and was as loud as I could be but the rest of the folks around me could not keep up. It was sorta sad really.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

From 2 recent Iron Dukes emails:

Dear Iron Dukes member,

A special opportunity is available for select Iron Dukes members to purchase corner bleacher tickets in the Duke student section to the Duke vs. Virginia game on January 12th at 9 pm.

Dear Iron Dukes member,

Tickets are now available for all Iron Duke members in the corner bleachers of the Duke student section for the Duke vs. Wake Forest game on Thursday, January 19 at 7 pm and the Duke vs. Florida State game on Saturday, January 21 at 4 pm.

I think that this is a pretty clear indication of a lack of student interest.

I was lucky enough to be at Duke during the amazing '90-'94 run. Even then, the corner bleachers didn't fill up for every game. Not saying it's okay but it's been that way for a long time.

Far more annoying to me is the lackadaisical effort of the crazies. For example, I was astounded during the UVA game when UVA was shooting free throws that the crazies were barely raising the decibel level until the very last moment. And we're not talking about the "shhhhhh... aghhhhhh" move unless we were doing that one every single time. My eardrums used to bleed even as the opposing player was receiving the ball from the ref and stepping to the line.

The crazies (and the rest of us honestly) should be embarrassed if it comes down to K and the players urging us to get into the game and help them out.

Or this crop of crazies could go down as the group that finally pushed administration to reduce volume and quality of student seating. After all, if the crowd isn;t going to make a difference, there's someone out there who surely would rather see the extra revenue. That would be a shame.

[Channing]

I am glad to see some Crazies actually acknowledge the problem and at least vouch to try and do something about taking Cameron back. Every year when this gets brought up some undergrad comes and explains how this crop of crazies is creating their own Cameron experience. Unfortunately, of late, it seems (to an outside viewer) that the students are far more conerned with Tailgating (sic) than actually supporting the school's teams.

When I was at Duke from 2000 - 2004 there was a sense that some people were "too cool" to be crazies; it looks like that sentiment has spread.

Nevertheless, I think the lack of marquis games at Cameron has had a really negative impact. Carolina is what it is (although, I was there for the game in 03 when the line monitors were literally begging people to show up to the game 5 minutes before tip), but we are missing the excitement from the rest of the ACC. UVA is a nice story, but they have been a doormat for so many years that I am not sure people even know they are a good team this year. When I was there UMD (a great villain to hate) was routinely in the top 5-10 with us and Carolina. Wake wasn't far behind, Ga Tech had their moments, and even UVA was a pretty regular presence in the top 10.

hopefully the new coaching blood in the ACC can return the conference to its rightful place at the top of CBB and Cameron will get a jolt of life.

[Bigdukeboi22]

Ill be attending my first ever ACC game today against Florida State! Im so excited! I have noticed that the Crazies are not as "crazy" this year as in past years. I really hope it changes today because I want to experience the real "ACC" craziness that I have watched on tv for the past 18 years.

[m g]

Part of the problem is how regimented everything is now, and how easy they have made tenting. Leave it unregulated, and the most passionate, creative fans will be the ones who end up in the stands.

Others have made some good points too.

[Channing]

I hadn't taken great notice of the crazies yet this season, but actually paying attention to them, so far there is little to no energy in the building. At least it looks full.

[bloodevil]

I was lucky enough to be at Duke during the amazing '90-'94 run. Even then, the corner bleachers didn't fill up for every game. Not saying it's okay but it's been that way for a long time.

With all due respect, I have been a Cameron regular since I was 10 years old in 1978. Sure, a few of the obscured, corner bleacher "seats" have always been available for games versus lesser, non-ACC opponents. UVA, Wake and FSU hardly fit that bill. Don't get me wrong, I like having the opportunity to take more of my friends to ACC games in Cameron. However, I would rather have those spots filled with Duke students and all of their youth and enthusiasm.
Old farts like me belong upstairs.

[BattierD12]

While tonight is quite upsetting, I will still commend the improvement in the Crazies from previous games. Kudos to those who brought in new cheers. There were still some times when we needed full student section support and we just weren't getting any noise. The effort in the last few minutes was commendable, but this needs to be how Cameron is all game long.

But now, I must truly release all my anger that I've been holding for the past hour. For other students in the student section, I am sure you heard some Duke guy keep on yelling out "Yeaaahhh Ryannnnnn" or "Yeaaaaaah Miles" in a girlish seductive tone when it was quiet right before they shot free throws. This was not an FSU person - this was a Duke person, and a Duke student at that. I thought he would've stopped midway through the game, but he continued to do his annoying call even when Ryan Kelly went to the line at the end of the game (and proceeded to miss the first one, which shut the guy up). My friends and I were getting p*ssed off enough that we honestly just want to strangle this guy. I know that Ryan's missed FT may not have been a result of this guy, but come on, are you really going to heckle your own team? This guy probably thought Duke wins at home are a guarantee and thought he could fool around, but god, was he wrong. I hope this guy is never allowed in Cameron again, and I hope one of his friends is reading this. I have never been this pissed off before at a Duke game, and this has nothing to do with the fact that Duke lost. What a ******* spoiled *****.

[Native]

While tonight is quite upsetting, I will still commend the improvement in the Crazies from previous games. Kudos to those who brought in new cheers. There were still some times when we needed full student section support and we just weren't getting any noise. The effort in the last few minutes was commendable, but this needs to be how Cameron is all game long.

But now, I must truly release all my anger that I've been holding for the past hour. For other students in the student section, I am sure you heard some Duke guy keep on yelling out "Yeaaahhh Ryannnnnn" or "Yeaaaaaah Miles" in a girlish seductive tone when it was quiet right before they shot free throws. This was not an FSU person - this was a Duke person, and a Duke student at that. I thought he would've stopped midway through the game, but he continued to do his annoying call even when Ryan Kelly went to the line at the end of the game (and proceeded to miss the first one, which shut the guy up). My friends and I were getting p*ssed off enough that we honestly just want to strangle this guy. I know that Ryan's missed FT may not have been a result of this guy, but come on, are you really going to heckle your own team? This guy probably thought Duke wins at home are a guarantee and thought he could fool around, but god, was he wrong. I hope this guy is never allowed in Cameron again, and I hope one of his friends is reading this. I have never been this pissed off before at a Duke game, and this has nothing to do with the fact that Duke lost. What a ******* spoiled *****.

In fairness, that was a little kid. He was just above the rail. But I agree. It should be quiet during free throws.

[BattierD12]

In fairness, that was a little kid. He was just above the rail. But I agree. It should be quiet during free throws.

If that is indeed the case, then I won't be that angry. Just based on people behind me who were closer, it sounded like this guy was just 2-3 rows behind me.

[Native]

If that is indeed the case, then I won't be that angry. Just based on people behind me who were closer, it sounded like this guy was just 2-3 rows behind me.

Yeah, I thought so too, but I had friends who were standing right over there near the last row. Shouldn't be a problem any more.

We were alright tonight, but we can be so much better. And we will be.

[dukebsbll14]

First of all, I feel sick to my stomach that we let them do the tomahawk chop in Our House. Win or a loss, no opposing teams' chant should be heard in our building.

I honestly think it is a problem with the student body as a whole, as in the kind of students Duke accepts these days. We're a top 10 team. We won a national championship 2 years ago. It's DUKE BASKETBALL. What else has to happen for people to get pumped?!? Look, I know waiting in line is tough. Going all out for basketball games is tiring. Believe me. I get tired too, but I want to win more than I want to rest.

Just like the team, the Crazies are a work in progress. The ball is rolling and we're working on how to get better. Though I think its time we need someone from a higher authority to light a fire under our butts (line monitors, coaches).

Side note, how'd the arms locked, side to side swaying/chanting 'Go Duke' thing look? We were aiming for the "eff yeah. Let's do this" effect.

[BattierD12]

First of all, I feel sick to my stomach that we let them do the tomahawk chop in Our House. Win or a loss, no opposing teams' chant should be heard in our building.

I honestly think it is a problem with the student body as a whole, as in the kind of students Duke accepts these days. We're a top 10 team. We won a national championship 2 years ago. It's DUKE BASKETBALL. What else has to happen for people to get pumped?!? Look, I know waiting in line is tough. Going all out for basketball games is tiring. Believe me. I get tired too, but I want to win more than I want to rest. .


Amen. My friends and i started doing a lets go duke chant to overpower the tomahawk chant but no one around us would do it. Back in 2009 when unc beat us at home, the crazies did it together and it was a powerful moment to show that were with the team no matter what and that this is still our house.

[BattierD12]

Sorry for the double post but i just came up with an idea. Any chance we can organize a group meeting with students like you guys along with line monitors, grad students, and the bball dept to help address issues like the pop music playing as well as find ways to bring back the cameron frenzy?

[dukebsbll14]

Amen. My friends and i started doing a lets go duke chant to overpower the tomahawk chant but no one around us would do it. Back in 2009 when unc beat us at home, the crazies did it together and it was a powerful moment to show that were with the team no matter what and that this is still our house.

We had one too. Not enough people joined it either.

I vividly remember the 2009 one while watching it on TV. A UNC player was at the line, the game was clearly over, but the Crazies still chanted anyways. That's the kind of Crazie I try to be (minus the losing in Cameron part).

[Devilsfan]

We seem to lack the creativity that made the crazies the best fans in basketball. Maybe it the rules that prevent it. We are afraid to embarrass the man who the court is named after but the intangibles that made the crazies the talk of the sports world seem to have been diminished. We have become very bland. It takes a special student to get into Duke so why can't the world still see the creativity they can bring to sports.

[91_92_01_10_15]

Just got back from the game. IMO, the students did very well. The team needs help on defense, though. We should be screaming our heads off whenever the other team has the ball. We can all do better on this, both above and below the rail.

Thanks to you students for all you do to create the Cameron atmosphere.

[Native]

Follow-up post. Sorry for stealing the title, BattierD12, but it fits.

http://kftfl.tumblr.com/post/16264307658/a-call-to-arms-for-cameron-indoor-stadium

[uh_no]

Follow-up post. Sorry for stealing the title, BattierD12, but it fits.

http://kftfl.tumblr.com/post/16264307658/a-call-to-arms-for-cameron-indoor-stadium

that's an incredible image

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

With all due respect, I have been a Cameron regular since I was 10 years old in 1978. Sure, a few of the obscured, corner bleacher "seats" have always been available for games versus lesser, non-ACC opponents. UVA, Wake and FSU hardly fit that bill. Don't get me wrong, I like having the opportunity to take more of my friends to ACC games in Cameron. However, I would rather have those spots filled with Duke students and all of their youth and enthusiasm.
Old farts like me belong upstairs.

Totally agree with you. Not saying it's okay to have empty bleachers - not even in the corner. But I guarantee that even during that amazing run from 90 to 94 that there were more a than a few ACC games where corners were not close to full. I was there for every game. Just stating a fact.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Totally agree with you. Not saying it's okay to have empty bleachers - not even in the corner. But I guarantee that even during that amazing run from 90 to 94 that there were more a than a few ACC games where corners were not close to full. I was there for every game. Just stating a fact.
The corner's have always been difficult to fill. Eddie Cameron authorized sale of tickets for those those areas back in the 60's when we students didn't fill them up.

As a point of interest, the price for a ticket to sit in the student section then was $1 to walk ups. (Students paid an activity fee which allowed one to attend all football and basketball games.) Reserved seats upstairs were $2.50 each per game, but they weren't sold as season tickets.

In case anyone is thinking that the quality of play wasn't much, Duke was nationally ranked at the time and made it to the Final Four. Television coverage was limited. If you wanted to see the game, you had to be there.

[weezie]

Side note, how'd the arms locked, side to side swaying/chanting 'Go Duke' thing look? We were aiming for the "eff yeah. Let's do this" effect.

Looked good! Try to get all sides going at once with rows alternating next time. I know, that sounds picky but you're all Blue Devils, figure it out!:cool:

[Greg_Newton]

One thing I noticed today was that the crowd was much louder on offense than defense. I'm not sure the "Let's go, Duke!" chant every time we have the ball is as important as just yelling and screaming on defense and when we make a big play and get some momentum. That's when the team needs energy and to feed off the crowd. Kind of strange to hear the deafening roar from a momentum-changing fade prematurely into "ohhhhh"...

Also would like to see the chants get meaner again. :p Make fun of the other team, anything they might actually notice. "You let the whole team down" is funny in the right spots (although we kind of stole it from Kansas), how about some 90's style stuff like that?

(BTW, the cop by the band-endzone section was absurd today. Kicked a front-row student out for, apparently, moving slightly into the aisle in front of him while trying to get loud and demonstrative with the rest of the section during an FSU timeout with like 2 minutes left. Ridiculous.)

[Bob Green]

Jim Sumner penned an excellent article for GoDuke.com that fits nicely into the discussion in this thread:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205365073&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Thanks Jim!

[Devilsfan]

Newton hit it! He says "meaner", I say more creative but we are saying the same thing. I think Coach K has gone a little too far in controlling the crazies and the team is paying for it in a lack of support. We need more Alpha males in the Crazies make up. Quit being so PC and Vanilla. It's a fine line but that's what made Cameron so famous and copied so much around the country. I say bring Cameron back!

[weezie]

(BTW, the cop by the band-endzone section was absurd today.

Yeah, we saw that from our seats. Cop was definitely trying to exert his supreme authority.

BUT, it also reminds me that the band was fantastic yesterday! Best all year and they really brought it when the Crazies seemed to lull a bit towards the end.
Good job BAND!!!!!

[Verga3]

Jim Sumner penned an excellent article for GoDuke.com that fits nicely into the discussion in this thread:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205365073&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Thanks Jim!

Thanks, Bob. Beat me to the punch. Nice piece by Jim, as usual. When was the last time anyone heard the "white noise" in Cameron? The first similar mention I recall was by Jack Marin, describing a deafening sound like a "jet engine" during a spurt v. the Cazzie Russell led #1 Michigan Wolverines in 1964. There have been others...that's been our legacy.

[BattierD12]

I've been trying to come up with potential ways to improve the creativity and the spontaneity of the cheers. I'm not a big fan of cheer sheets, and one of the reasons is that the cheers listed are usually recited at the very beginning during warm-ups; however, once it's used up, there's really nothing else listed that can be used during games. (Yesterday was a good example of this - the cheers/taunts before the game and during the first few minutes of the game were great - after that, there weren't really any more unique cheers). I remember back when the Miami Heat played their first game last season against the Boston Celtics, Bill Simmons would update his twitter during the game with cheers that fans in the arena could say together. In the same vein, how about having a designated student leader of the student section (Tent 1 peeps, line monitor, etc), who will undoubtedly be creative in cheers and jeers, be responsible for sending a text/email to people signed up for the "Taunt listserv". This would allow for unique cheers to be created that would target a recent occurrence in a game. Most students end up checking their cell phones at time outs anyways, so it would be neat if they would see a new cheer available to them that they could recite as well as info on when it will be used. It would also help bring in the people on the sides to cheer, as I remember not being able to hear what was being cheered a lot of the time when I ended up on the edge of the student section. With technology having increasing control of most of our lives, maybe we should use it to our advantage with cheering.

[uh_no]

I've been trying to come up with potential ways to improve the creativity and the spontaneity of the cheers. I'm not a big fan of cheer sheets, and one of the reasons is that the cheers listed are usually recited at the very beginning during warm-ups; however, once it's used up, there's really nothing else listed that can be used during games. (Yesterday was a good example of this - the cheers/taunts before the game and during the first few minutes of the game were great - after that, there weren't really any more unique cheers). I remember back when the Miami Heat played their first game last season against the Boston Celtics, Bill Simmons would update his twitter during the game with cheers that fans in the arena could say together. In the same vein, how about having a designated student leader of the student section (Tent 1 peeps, line monitor, etc), who will undoubtedly be creative in cheers and jeers, be responsible for sending a text/email to people signed up for the "Taunt listserv". This would allow for unique cheers to be created that would target a recent occurrence in a game. Most students end up checking their cell phones at time outs anyways, so it would be neat if they would see a new cheer available to them that they could recite as well as info on when it will be used. It would also help bring in the people on the sides to cheer, as I remember not being able to hear what was being cheered a lot of the time when I ended up on the edge of the student section. With technology having increasing control of most of our lives, maybe we should use it to our advantage with cheering.

First, saying someone is "in charge" is the wrong way to go about this. Part of the appeal of crazies is that everyone is equal. We don't have a "lottery" for tickets, we don't have people who are "in charge" of coming up with cheers. We have people and anyone can come up with a cheer.

Second, the last thing we want is students spending the entire game looking at their cellphones and thus becoming even LESS engaged in the games.

I applaud you for trying to come up with some ideas, and don't mean to reject them so vehemently, but I just don't think they're for us.

To avoid sounding like a spoil sport without providing any suggestions: I haven't been an undergrad in section 17 or kville for 2 years. I know around that time the team was spending a good deal of effort trying to get fraternaties to come out to games, creating the option for larger groups to have beer and bbq out in kville. I know it mas marginally successful the first year, but have not heard since. Is that going strong? From what i have heard/read it seems like the frats ceasing attending games was one of the things that has decreased the craziness over the years. I do think that having some coherent groups of people who can come up with their own stuff and then have it spread is something that is missing (and yes, slightly inebriated frat guys are certainly more raucous than your average freshman). I don't know why going to games fell out of favor...but its a shame

[Devilsfan]

Hire the guys who founded South Park as Crazie Consultants to get us back on track.

[DukieInKansas]

I thought the Crazies were more involved yesterday. Thanks for all that worked to bring that about. I do have a question for the student holding the "Wins Limit 45" sign? Why would she want to limit the home win streak to 45? I would have preferred it get to 46 and beyond.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Looked good! Try to get all sides going at once with rows alternating next time. I know, that sounds picky but you're all Blue Devils, figure it out!:cool:

Yes! It DID look good. I can't figure out, though, how you could at least get EVERYbody going the SAME direction. The people in the middle kept getting squashed from both ends at once!

You guys will get there. You're on to something now!
Love, Ima

[Truth]

In fairness, that was a little kid. He was just above the rail. But I agree. It should be quiet during free throws.

NO. It was NOT a little kid. The female-impersonating catcalls came from a Duke student literally two rows in front of me. Some of his friends were laughing at his antics, but several were seemingly upset but unable to summon the courage to admonish this foolish behavior. I finally stepped in (with a few choice words that I won't repeat here) and the kid stopped. I only wish I had done it sooner...

[Native]

NO. It was NOT a little kid. The female-impersonating catcalls came from a Duke student literally two rows in front of me. Some of his friends were laughing at his antics, but several were seemingly upset but unable to summon the courage to admonish this foolish behavior. I finally stepped in (with a few choice words that I won't repeat here) and the kid stopped. I only wish I had done it sooner...

Wow, my bad then. Again, I didn't see it myself but a few of my friends claimed to have been witness.

Sheesh.

[Verga3]

How do we pump up the volume? This may be a Duke Basketball cultural question at the core. Do we emotionally care as much as we have in the past? Are we invested enough to scream and chant our heads off...as students, alums and fans? Don't get me wrong, there is energy still there...and it remains much superior to most schools. But, we are NOT "most schools." We need to continue to be recognized as the very best! That takes both an emotional AND choreographed commitment. And, it starts by flat being LOUD!!!

If we can speak without a gravely voice in class or at work the next day, we have not done our duty.

[jimsumner]

FWIW, K did opine in the post-game yesterday that the Duke fan base takes for granted winning at home. He didn't specify the Crazies, either.

The man has been to a fair number of games at Cameron.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

FWIW, K did opine in the post-game yesterday that the Duke fan base takes for granted winning at home. He didn't specify the Crazies, either.

The man has been to a fair number of games at Cameron.

He "opines" you say?

FWIW The Crazies and fans are not completely to blame. All the "showbiz" glitz and constant booming of canned music has taken Cameron away from us. The students have been systematically and purposefully shoved into oblivion. Somebody should tell K he can't have it both ways.

By the way, this old gal has been to FAR more games in Cameron than Krzyzewski has.
Love, Ima

[ScreechTDX1847]

Someone needs to get that blog in the school paper. Cameron is truly not the homecourt advantage it used to be. It looks like 75% of the "crazies" just stand there without doing anything.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

He "opines" you say?

FWIW The Crazies and fans are not completely to blame. All the "showbiz" glitz and constant booming of canned music has taken Cameron away from us. The students have been systematically and purposefully shoved into oblivion. Somebody should tell K he can't have it both ways.

By the way, this old gal has been to FAR more games in Cameron than Krzyzewski has.
Love, Ima
I think you're making one of the most important points in this discussion, Ima.

Look at the changes in Cameron over the past 40 years or so and consider how they've influenced fan participation..... significant reduction in number of seats for undergrads, game breaks scripted by TV timeouts and commercials, booming piped in music and lots of big video presentations (people including the players are distracted by those).

Speaking as one who began my time in Cameron as a young child, this process of evolution feels as if the more we upgrade to new technology and keeping up with trends in other basketball facilities, the more we lose from the quality of fan participation that developed with the program. Splashy technology is no substitute for the real live fan.

[Devilsfan]

Well put. This isn't the NBA or Team USA. We don't need the phony pumped in drama. Next they'll want to tear down Cameron and put up a 15,000 seat arena. Students do seem to be just standing in the Crazie section where they ALL used to actively participate. Just an opinion. Let's bring back Cameron!

[Dev11]

I think you're making one of the most important points in this discussion, Ima.

Look at the changes in Cameron over the past 40 years or so and consider how they've influenced fan participation..... significant reduction in number of seats for undergrads, game breaks scripted by TV timeouts and commercials, booming piped in music and lots of big video presentations (people including the players are distracted by those).

Speaking as one who began my time in Cameron as a young child, this process of evolution feels as if the more we upgrade to new technology and keeping up with trends in other basketball facilities, the more we lose from the quality of fan participation that developed with the program. Splashy technology is no substitute for the real live fan.

I'm not a big fan of this thread since I don't care much where the enthusiasm comes from, etc, but I do endorse the idea that the video board and recorded music really detract from the experience. However, the old LED scoreboard made us seem outdated, which in turn hurts in recruiting, unfortunately. I want to say it was Patrick Patterson, though it could have been another recruit a few years back (Greg Monroe, maybe?) who actually pointed out that Cameron seems like a little old gym, and not as exciting as Rupp or some other big and new facility.

Watching the video board to see if you get on it for a few seconds is such a stupid activity, unless you're a really little kid. I will say, though, that the intro videos are pretty cool. Regarding the music, the band is perfectly capable of filling the gym with sound, and its music comes out much more clearly than the recorded music coming through the very old PA system.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I'm not a big fan of this thread since I don't care much where the enthusiasm comes from, etc, but I do endorse the idea that the video board and recorded music really detract from the experience. However, the old LED scoreboard made us seem outdated, which in turn hurts in recruiting, unfortunately. I want to say it was Patrick Patterson, though it could have been another recruit a few years back (Greg Monroe, maybe?) who actually pointed out that Cameron seems like a little old gym, and not as exciting as Rupp or some other big and new facility.

Watching the video board to see if you get on it for a few seconds is such a stupid activity, unless you're a really little kid. I will say, though, that the intro videos are pretty cool. Regarding the music, the band is perfectly capable of filling the gym with sound, and its music comes out much more clearly than the recorded music coming through the very old PA system.

A major factor in student participation is the drastic reduction in the number of seats for undergraduates downstairs. Downstairs used to be their domain. Graduate students had a section upstairs behind where the band currently sits.

Updating isn't a bad move in and of itself, but there are consequences to each of the changes made over the decades. Most of the consequences and how they interact or influence each other tend to be unpredictable.

[MulletMan]

A major factor in student participation is the drastic reduction in the number of seats for undergraduates downstairs. Downstairs used to be their domain. Graduate students had a section upstairs behind where the band currently sits.

Updating isn't a bad move in and of itself, but there are consequences to each of the changes made over the decades. Most of the consequences and how they interact or influence each other tend to be unpredictable.

Excuse me... but the graduate students have earned those seats downstairs. And frankly, they got more seats because they fill them... every single game.

The major factor in student participation is, as Native points out in his blog post, the fact that there are fewer basketball fans in the student body and more and more people mugging for the TV and jumbotron cameras.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Excuse me... but the graduate students have earned those seats downstairs. And frankly, they got more seats because they fill them... every single game.

The major factor in student participation is, as Native points out in his blog post, the fact that there are fewer basketball fans in the student body and more and more people mugging for the TV and jumbotron cameras.
Please understand that I wasn't making a judgment or complaining, just describing the situation years ago as a backdrop to the evolution to the current day. Many factors influence who's there and how they participate to support the team.

[dukeENG2003]

Sadly, the undergrads have failed to fill their section for a TON of games this year, which is the reasoning behind the GA tickets being sold to so many games. Even with GA tickets, grad students have still backfilled their section for a couple of games.

[devil84]

FWIW The Crazies and fans are not completely to blame. All the "showbiz" glitz and constant booming of canned music has taken Cameron away from us. The students have been systematically and purposefully shoved into oblivion. Somebody should tell K he can't have it both ways.

I agree with this! The pregame music and videos (are there really only three popular pieces of music?) are SO loud that there is no hope of cheering over them. Heck, it's nearly impossible to talk to the person next to you without loudly speaking directly into their ear. Most of those loud songs have no ability for people to clap or cheer along.

The videos they show are painfully loud, which prompted my children, a college junior and a grad student, to download decibel meters on their smart phones a couple games ago wondering if it's dangerously loud (the decibel meters on smart phones don't work well enough). My son, the accomplished percussionist, complains about how distorted the bass is, rendering it noise that doesn't allow the beat to punch through. Since my college-age kids are complaining, you can't say that it's only the "old people who don't understand what today's kids like." And for the player intro video, there's a tragic flaw in that there is no distinct beat or lyrics to sustain cheering. The Crazies make plenty of noise through the first several seconds, but they quickly quiet down for another 20-30 seconds until the subtitles appear and finally give them something to cheer about. There should NEVER be a time when the Crazies feel like standing still! Most of my section tends to groan when it starts and a quick look around notes a number of people covering their ears due to the painfully loud volume. There's a simple fix: switch to music with a beat to get everyone clapping, ease off the volume and bass so it's not distorted, and shorten it. Even better would be to let the pep band provide the music; it may mean purchasing some new, current music, or even have something commissioned that packs the same energy as the NBA-style intros.

And I hope I *NEVER* see that artificial Noise Meter on the video board in Cameron again. Each time they used it, the crowd quieted noticeably. Perhaps we felt a bit insulted that we needed to increase our noise! This isn't Lawrence Joel, the RBC Center, or any other large, impersonal stadium that needs to encourage the thin crowd to cheer.

Yes, the undergrads aren't filling the stands like they used to, for various reasons already hashed and rehashed in this thread. The group of undergrads across from the Duke bench are doing a great job trying to initiate the cheers. Yes, the grad students are doing a phenomenal job of turning out and cheering. Sure, it doesn't seem as good as when I was in school (I'm the Class of Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter), but aren't our cherished memories always a bit better that the current reality? We talk all the time about how teams that win big over cupcakes don't know the sting of defeat and aren't as hungry. Well, these kids in college don't know of a time when Duke had a losing basketball season -- three-fourths of the undergrads experienced their first home loss last Saturday! Perhaps the success on the court has inadvertently caused a dip in the level of rabid fans hungry to help their team win? There are a number of reasons why Cameron just doesn't feel like it used to.

I do think that the newfangled NBAification of Cameron with regard to what emanates from the sound system is in large part responsible for the dampening of the Crazies' collective spirit. They spend an hour pre-game listening to the same three songs played over and over again while watching various videos, unable to either cheer along or cheer over the blaring noise (yes, noise -- it's too distorted to be music!). The Crazies should be warming up and heckling the opponents! Give the soundtrack back to the Crazies and the pep band!

[mkline09]

I agree with this! The pregame music and videos (are there really only three popular pieces of music?) are SO loud that there is no hope of cheering over them. Heck, it's nearly impossible to talk to the person next to you without loudly speaking directly into their ear. Most of those loud songs have no ability for people to clap or cheer along.

The videos they show are painfully loud, which prompted my children, a college junior and a grad student, to download decibel meters on their smart phones a couple games ago wondering if it's dangerously loud (the decibel meters on smart phones don't work well enough). My son, the accomplished percussionist, complains about how distorted the bass is, rendering it noise that doesn't allow the beat to punch through. Since my college-age kids are complaining, you can't say that it's only the "old people who don't understand what today's kids like." And for the player intro video, there's a tragic flaw in that there is no distinct beat or lyrics to sustain cheering. The Crazies make plenty of noise through the first several seconds, but they quickly quiet down for another 20-30 seconds until the subtitles appear and finally give them something to cheer about. There should NEVER be a time when the Crazies feel like standing still! Most of my section tends to groan when it starts and a quick look around notes a number of people covering their ears due to the painfully loud volume. There's a simple fix: switch to music with a beat to get everyone clapping, ease off the volume and bass so it's not distorted, and shorten it. Even better would be to let the pep band provide the music; it may mean purchasing some new, current music, or even have something commissioned that packs the same energy as the NBA-style intros.

And I hope I *NEVER* see that artificial Noise Meter on the video board in Cameron again. Each time they used it, the crowd quieted noticeably. Perhaps we felt a bit insulted that we needed to increase our noise! This isn't Lawrence Joel, the RBC Center, or any other large, impersonal stadium that needs to encourage the thin crowd to cheer.

Yes, the undergrads aren't filling the stands like they used to, for various reasons already hashed and rehashed in this thread. The group of undergrads across from the Duke bench are doing a great job trying to initiate the cheers. Yes, the grad students are doing a phenomenal job of turning out and cheering. Sure, it doesn't seem as good as when I was in school (I'm the Class of Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter), but aren't our cherished memories always a bit better that the current reality? We talk all the time about how teams that win big over cupcakes don't know the sting of defeat and aren't as hungry. Well, these kids in college don't know of a time when Duke had a losing basketball season -- three-fourths of the undergrads experienced their first home loss last Saturday! Perhaps the success on the court has inadvertently caused a dip in the level of rabid fans hungry to help their team win? There are a number of reasons why Cameron just doesn't feel like it used to.

I do think that the newfangled NBAification of Cameron with regard to what emanates from the sound system is in large part responsible for the dampening of the Crazies' collective spirit. They spend an hour pre-game listening to the same three songs played over and over again while watching various videos, unable to either cheer along or cheer over the blaring noise (yes, noise -- it's too distorted to be music!). The Crazies should be warming up and heckling the opponents! Give the soundtrack back to the Crazies and the pep band!

Great posts and great observations. I can't help but wonder if the NBAification of Cameron is a product of recruiting. With Krzyzewski going after more one and done type kids as he has altered his recruiting approach, has the program been forced to go the loud an gawdy route. Kids now a days want there name in lights, the videos, the music (or what is passed off as music these days). I'm only 33 and I don't like the loud atmosphere even in pregame. I wouldn't mind seeing a scaled down pregame and ingame and I think that is a common feeling. But I can't help but wondering if the desires of the kids is outweighing the desires of the fans. Not that that is a bad thing necessarily but just food for thought. It seems like the "fireworks" is geared toward the players and recruits.

[hurleyfor3]

Totally agree with you. Not saying it's okay to have empty bleachers - not even in the corner. But I guarantee that even during that amazing run from 90 to 94 that there were more a than a few ACC games where corners were not close to full. I was there for every game. Just stating a fact.

I was a year ahead of you. While I certainly recall games when the student section wasn't full, I doubt there were ever more than about 200 empty seats at any of the games I attended (this is roughly five students wide and the entire section deep in each corner), at a maximum. This was at a time when more of the bleachers was given to undergrads and when the undergrad enrollment was a good bit smaller than today, of course. Also, note the *extreme* corners can't be occupied because the bleachers go under the 45° angle of the upper deck -- this is maybe 10-15 seats in each corner.

More often I would get shut out of games. At least once I got in line three hours before tipoff, and another time four hours, and didn't get in. And it wasn't against unc.

[dukeENG2003]

My son, the accomplished percussionist, complains about how distorted the bass is, rendering it noise that doesn't allow the beat to punch through.

This is more a function of the terrible acoustics of Cameron than of the sounds system. I recall seeing a concert in there once, and it was almost unberably bad.

[flyingdutchdevil]

A little about me:

'03-'07: Duke undergrad (and hardcore fan)
'11-'13: Duke grad student (and still a hardcore fan)

With that said, I was impressed with the turnout to FSU by the grads and undergrads. They were excited, they were squished together, and they looked good from my position (the grad side). But there weren't in unison. Something has gone wrong because few students - especially the grad students - have no idea what the chants were. They didn't do the dances, they didn't do the singing (or shouting). The only thing they did was the free throw antics, and that's because a monkey can follow those moves. IMO, more needs to be done to get everyone together on the same page.

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant. These are Duke students. Support them like you would the basketball team. Every year, there is more pressure than ever for academics and students prioritize them (as they should). Unfortunately, Duke basketball will suffer because of this. It's the nature of being a top 10 school academically.

[AZLA]

a little about me:

'03-'07: Duke undergrad (and hardcore fan)
'11-'13: Duke grad student (and still a hardcore fan)

with that said, i was impressed with the turnout to fsu by the grads and undergrads. They were excited, they were squished together, and they looked good from my position (the grad side). But there weren't in unison. Something has gone wrong because few students - especially the grad students - have no idea what the chants were. They didn't do the dances, they didn't do the singing (or shouting). The only thing they did was the free throw antics, and that's because a monkey can follow those moves. Imo, more needs to be done to get everyone together on the same page.

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant. These are duke students. Support them like you would the basketball team. Every year, there is more pressure than ever for academics and students prioritize them (as they should). Unfortunately, duke basketball will suffer because of this. It's the nature of being a top 10 school academically.


ignorant? Kids these days are soft! Duke was academically ranked top 3 in the early nineties and those crazies would run circles around today's crazies. Quit facebooking and drinking your foamy coffee drinks, rub some dirt in them wounds, get into cameron and kick some butt. No excuses! :) . Pick it up before we start referring to you as the cameron mildly insane. :)

[hurleyfor3]

And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant.

In the early 1990s we called ourselves media sluts semi-ironically. As we entered Cameron the students who took seats opposite the benches were "media sluts" when there were better seats available behind the benches. We also used the term whenever a small group of fans would get on teevee, often going into or coming out of a commercial, and ham it up.

[airowe]

Sadly, the undergrads have failed to fill their section for a TON of games this year, which is the reasoning behind the GA tickets being sold to so many games. Even with GA tickets, grad students have still backfilled their section for a couple of games.

Yep, this year's average attendance is 650(!) for undergrads. There's room for 1200. Sad.

http://dukechronicle.com/article/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats

And what is up with this? They totally play canned music during timeouts.


“Every other school in the country is playing canned music during timeouts, doing cheesy promotions,” Forman said. “We try to stay away from that.”

[Bluedog]

I think with Greek rush finally dwindling down and how events were particularly crammed in there at the beginning of the semester (fraternity rush shorter this year), attendance should hopefully improve considerably for the rest of the semester.

[airowe]

Yep, this year's average attendance is 650(!) for undergrads. There's room for 1200. Sad.

http://dukechronicle.com/article/low-attendance-forces-duke-athletics-sell-student-seats

And what is up with this? They totally play canned music during timeouts.

After speaking with the appropriate parties, I'd like to retract my statement that canned music is played during timeouts. Evidently, I was mistaken. I do feel better now that efforts are being made to correct the situation as well.

[Lid]

With that said, I was impressed with the turnout to FSU by the grads and undergrads. They were excited, they were squished together, and they looked good from my position (the grad side).
They were squished together because so many GA tickets were sold. Previous to the general sales, the ends of the bleachers were sparsely populated all year.


And regarding the undergrads, please stop ripping on them and their attendance. Calling them 'media-whores,' 'passive fans,' or anything else along those lines is ignorant.
I'm missing your reasoning here. The crowd spends an observable, and large, amount of time standing around AND TEXTING, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, PUT AWAY YOUR PHONES. Per the numbers cited in this thread, low numbers of undergrads are attending games. During timeouts or stoppages, you can nearly always tell where the camera is pointed by seeing what small segment of the bleacher denizens are cheering. You may not have been in Cameron when these things weren't happening, but just fyi, it wasn't always like that. I don't see how noting these changes makes one "ignorant." Nostalgic, sure. Boring, quite possibly. But ignorant? You lost me.

I think there have been a lot of good points made in this thread about why Cameron has lost some of its edge -- over-reliance on pro-style theatrics, complacency, a desire by Coach K to both have a loud arena and also tell the students what they can and can't do, and, frankly, probably a decrease in the average undergrad drunkenness.

At the end of the day, all I know is that when everyone in there is loud, it's the most exciting place in the world.

[feldspar]

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but CBS Sportsline has picked up on the Chronicle story:

Cameron Lazies (http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/34554615)

Pretty sad.

[Duvall]

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but CBS Sportsline has picked up on the Chronicle story:

Cameron Lazies (http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/34554615)

Pretty sad.

Yeah, that *is* sad. You would think CBS Sports would have real stories to cover, but I guess not.

[feldspar]

Yeah, that *is* sad. You would think CBS Sports would have real stories to cover, but I guess not.

In fairness, it was just technically a blog post. Probably took the writer all of 15 minutes to put together.

Second, it is newsworthy. We have one of the most, if not THE most, famous student fans in the entire country. The fact that they're having a lot of trouble getting butts in seats is newsworthy.

[loran16]

Yes, the undergrads aren't filling the stands like they used to, for various reasons already hashed and rehashed in this thread. The group of undergrads across from the Duke bench are doing a great job trying to initiate the cheers. Yes, the grad students are doing a phenomenal job of turning out and cheering. Sure, it doesn't seem as good as when I was in school (I'm the Class of Uncle Terry's Avuncular Letter), but aren't our cherished memories always a bit better that the current reality? We talk all the time about how teams that win big over cupcakes don't know the sting of defeat and aren't as hungry. Well, these kids in college don't know of a time when Duke had a losing basketball season -- three-fourths of the undergrads experienced their first home loss last Saturday! Perhaps the success on the court has inadvertently caused a dip in the level of rabid fans hungry to help their team win? There are a number of reasons why Cameron just doesn't feel like it used to.


Normally I'd agree with the bolded statement, but we kind of have objective evidence (the chronicle article) that student attendance is way down at the moment. Meanwhile, the expectation of winning HASN'T BEEN DIFFERENT FOR OVER TEN YEARS NOW. And this problem wasn't noted in the early 2000s, or even more recently.

I'm from the Class of 09, and I remember my Frosh year having the best attendance, sophomore year (22-11 season 06-07) having WAY low attendance (People who walked up to Cameron for Carolina on the NIGHT OF THE CAROLINA GAME got INTO the game.), where it had a bounce the next two years, but still not to the 05-06 season level. Even so, the sophomore year season attendance was unacceptable (bloody fair weather fans), and I wouldn't have called it this bad as this season (though I'd like some data on this).


A major factor in student participation is the drastic reduction in the number of seats for undergraduates downstairs. Downstairs used to be their domain. Graduate students had a section upstairs behind where the band currently sits.

Updating isn't a bad move in and of itself, but there are consequences to each of the changes made over the decades. Most of the consequences and how they interact or influence each other tend to be unpredictable.

Baloney. Grad students have been there for a while now, and attendance was fine. The problem is that undergrads aren't even filling the 1200 seats they have! That's unacceptable.


They were squished together because so many GA tickets were sold. Previous to the general sales, the ends of the bleachers were sparsely populated all year.


I'm missing your reasoning here. The crowd spends an observable, and large, amount of time standing around AND TEXTING, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, PUT AWAY YOUR PHONES. Per the numbers cited in this thread, low numbers of undergrads are attending games. During timeouts or stoppages, you can nearly always tell where the camera is pointed by seeing what small segment of the bleacher denizens are cheering. You may not have been in Cameron when these things weren't happening, but just fyi, it wasn't always like that. I don't see how noting these changes makes one "ignorant." Nostalgic, sure. Boring, quite possibly. But ignorant? You lost me.

I think there have been a lot of good points made in this thread about why Cameron has lost some of its edge -- over-reliance on pro-style theatrics, complacency, a desire by Coach K to both have a loud arena and also tell the students what they can and can't do, and, frankly, probably a decrease in the average undergrad drunkenness.

Perhaps we could add to Cameron a system that would kill phone service inside the stadium?

[Duvall]

In fairness, it was just technically a blog post. Probably took the writer all of 15 minutes to put together.

Second, it is newsworthy. We have one of the most, if not THE most, famous student fans in the entire country. The fact that they're having a lot of trouble getting butts in seats is newsworthy.

Is it really more newsworthy than an update on the conference races in the Big South or the West Coast Conference? I doubt it. At the end of the day, it's just fans, not something that matters.

[Duvall]

Normally I'd agree with the bolded statement, but we kind of have objective evidence (the chronicle article) that student attendance is way down at the moment.

Eh. That's putting a lot of weight on information from a fairly unreliable source. Let's see how the rest of the season plays out before making any judgments.

[feldspar]

Is it really more newsworthy than an update on the conference races in the Big South or the West Coast Conference? I doubt it. At the end of the day, it's just fans, not something that matters.

The point is that it's about as newsworthy as the space they gave it. Which was very little. It wasn't a huge expose, or an in-depth piece, just more of a "well, this is odd..." type of article. As I said, it probably took no more than 15 minutes to throw together, and it's garnering a fair number of comments, so for CBS I think it certainly makes sense to run the story.

[loran16]

Eh. That's putting a lot of weight on information from a fairly unreliable source. Let's see how the rest of the season plays out before making any judgments.

You think they made the #s up? Sounds like they got them straight from the Athletic Department. Now perhaps a graph showing average attendance for every year would be very enlightening, but that's not an unreliable source.


Is it really more newsworthy than an update on the conference races in the Big South or the West Coast Conference? I doubt it. At the end of the day, it's just fans, not something that matters.

Duke's fans ARE newsworthy when it comes to college basketball. For good reasons. Yes it's more newsworthy than an update on the Big South (if there was news in the WCC, it'd be there also - the WCC is on a whole other plane than the Big South you know).

[licc85]

I'm speechless . . . and incredibly ashamed of the current edition of the Cameron Crazies. This is Duke. What happened to "the best homecourt in basketball?" So, we are a little down from previous years, we are still a top 10 team . . . this cannot happen. #sadface

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-basketball/2012/1/24/2730315/duke-basketball-low-attendance-sell-student-tickets-general-public-cameron-indoor-blue-devils

[Andy7207]

I know this has probably been said before, but they realllly need to come up with a way to reduce waiting time immediately before the game. Somehow cut down the hours you have to stand up before even getting in the stadium... students will have more energy once they get in, and students will be deterred from using the "I don't have 6 hours to spare on a Tuesday" excuse.

[Duvall]

I'm speechless . . . and incredibly ashamed of the current edition of the Cameron Crazies.

"Incredibly ashamed" is a bit strong to be applied to attendance at a sporting event.

[Duvall]

I know this has probably been said before, but they realllly need to come up with a way to reduce waiting time immediately before the game. Somehow cut down the hours you have to stand up before even getting in the stadium... students will have more energy once they get in, and students will be deterred from using the "I don't have 6 hours to spare on a Tuesday" excuse.

Seems like the students have already accomplished this by not going. How early do you have to get there to fill an empty seat?

[throatybeard]

I'm speechless . . . and incredibly ashamed of the current edition of the Cameron Crazies. This is Duke. What happened to "the best homecourt in basketball?" So, we are a little down from previous years, we are still a top 10 team . . . this cannot happen. #sadface

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-basketball/2012/1/24/2730315/duke-basketball-low-attendance-sell-student-tickets-general-public-cameron-indoor-blue-devils

I knew there would be a thread when I saw a link to the Chronicle article today at 1 Central. I'm surprised it took this long.

The comments on the Chronicle article seem to indicate it was a perfect storm of an altered structure in Greek Rush and the fact that the previous seasons had their UNC game and maybe Maryland game factored in but this year has not had those factored in.

At any rate, I would suggest bashing the current students at Duke as this thread unfolds would be an unconstructive path.

[Indoor66]

Perhaps we could add to Cameron a system that would kill phone service inside the stadium?

Perhaps we can find a system that will kill phone service everywhere except your home and place of employment. That would help society as well as attendance and attention at Cameron.

[Channing]

I know this has probably been said before, but they realllly need to come up with a way to reduce waiting time immediately before the game. Somehow cut down the hours you have to stand up before even getting in the stadium... students will have more energy once they get in, and students will be deterred from using the "I don't have 6 hours to spare on a Tuesday" excuse.

just show up. If Cameron isn't full you walk right in.


"Incredibly ashamed" is a bit strong to be applied to attendance at a sporting event.

Since when has attending a Duke BBall game as a student been just any sporting event? It may not be a world altering event, but it has always been more than simple fandom.

[Duvall]

You think they made the #s up? Sounds like they got them straight from the Athletic Department.

No, I suspect that this is more shoddy analysis by the Chronicle that fails to address the fact that it's only January, or that Duke played hardly any home games this year before winter break, or that the UNC game has yet to be included in this year's numbers. Freaking out over what is basically seven uninspiring games worth of data doesn't really seem worth the trouble.


Duke's fans ARE newsworthy when it comes to college basketball. For good reasons. Yes it's more newsworthy than an update on the Big South?

Why? Big South teams are actually playing basketball, not watching it.

[fh84]

I was in the grad student section at the game this weekend against FSU, and I thought it was well attended by the students and quite loud (even compared to top ACC games in previous years). However, I don't know how it was ten or twenty years ago.
While everybody here is calling out the students, I thought it was pretty sad that even during a game like the one we witnessed this weekend (especially at the end), a close game against a probable top contender in the ACC this year, all of Cameron, i.e. the paying Duke fans, managed to stand up only twice for about 2 seconds after long harassment by the crazies. I understand the students are mainly responsible for cheering and making noise, but I thought one of the many reasons for Cameron being so special was the fact that we don't have a wine and cheese crowd like our friends down the road.
Just wanted to throw this out there...:cool:

[Devilsfan]

Lower level seats should be declared a no texting zone. Use of cell phones in Cameron may be detrimental to our team.

[toooskies]

I'd be more interested in hearing legitimate reasons for Duke student attendance decreases. Are there more evening classes scheduled now? Did the Greek Rush not take into account the Duke schedule?

Then again, here are the actual home games:
- Belmont
- Presbyterian
- Davidson
- Colorado State*
- UNCG*
- Western Michigan*
- Penn*
- UVA **
- Wake
- FSU

* = winter break game
** = Second day of spring semester, first day of Thursday classes.

Honestly, that's an uninspiring list. Of those games, the ones you wouldn't count on being a 30 point win are Belmont, UVA, and FSU. If I were a student with a Thursday night study session, I wouldn't skip the session to see those games. Outside of UVA/FSU/Belmont, you wouldn't expect any games on that schedule to be competitive.

So, to pick the best time to exaggerate numbers, right now is the best time to pick on low attendance: we've had an easy home schedule without any big games. And honestly, that's been a trend: last year, other than the Big 10 Challenge game against Michigan State, there weren't any non-conference compelling home games. 09-10 was better, with St. John's and Arizona State; but to find another interesting non-ACC game was back in 06-07, which we happened to lose to #17 Marquette while narrowly beating Indiana.

So, um, did Josh McRoberts take the interesting non-conference home game with him to the NBA?

[devildeac]

Is this our Ozzie here looking over the railing at the Crazies?

http://deadspin.com/5878886/the-great-duke-attendance-scam

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Is this our Ozzie here looking over the railing at the Crazies?

http://deadspin.com/5878886/the-great-duke-attendance-scam

Is he STILL there? OMG! Somebody should call Mrs. Oz! She has sent out a search party!:rolleyes:
Love, Ima

[msdukie]

I'd be more interested in hearing legitimate reasons for Duke student attendance decreases. Are there more evening classes scheduled now? Did the Greek Rush not take into account the Duke schedule?

Then again, here are the actual home games:
- Belmont
- Presbyterian
- Davidson
- Colorado State*
- UNCG*
- Western Michigan*
- Penn*
- UVA **
- Wake
- FSU

* = winter break game
** = Second day of spring semester, first day of Thursday classes.

Honestly, that's an uninspiring list. Of those games, the ones you wouldn't count on being a 30 point win are Belmont, UVA, and FSU. If I were a student with a Thursday night study session, I wouldn't skip the session to see those games. Outside of UVA/FSU/Belmont, you wouldn't expect any games on that schedule to be competitive.

So, to pick the best time to exaggerate numbers, right now is the best time to pick on low attendance: we've had an easy home schedule without any big games. And honestly, that's been a trend: last year, other than the Big 10 Challenge game against Michigan State, there weren't any non-conference compelling home games. 09-10 was better, with St. John's and Arizona State; but to find another interesting non-ACC game was back in 06-07, which we happened to lose to #17 Marquette while narrowly beating Indiana.

So, um, did Josh McRoberts take the interesting non-conference home game with him to the NBA?


DUKE is playing in Cameron. The opponent is irrelevant.

[uh_no]

DUKE is playing in Cameron. The opponent is irrelevant.

when you're trying to convince your average student to attend a game, the opponent is absolutely relevant.

[blazindw]

I won't take the time to address the drop in attendance right now (many of you know I have some experience with these sort of things) except to say that I believe that the 1200 capacity number for undergrads is a bit off. It's more like 900 on the TV side. When I was HLM, our max capacity was 1200, and that included the "non-TV" section that we had (though we routinely had way more inside). What I will comment on is what many perceive is the lack of coordination and creativity among the current Crazies. I think a lot of the coordination problems started when the undergrads lost these non-TV seats, complete with the buffer zone. It's incredibly difficult to hear a chant being started in Cameron over the din. When I was there, most cheers either started from the middle of the TV side or from the Phalanx (Mullet, Throaty, Viking Guy and Baldy) in the grad section. For those who couldn't see those people (and there were plenty of angles in the TV side where you couldn't), people would look to the non-TV side, who could clearly see and hear the chant that was being started, and pick up the chant. That way, people are still focused on the court instead of turning their heads away from the action to pick up what's going on. Not to mention, with the non-TV side, we would have hundreds of students yelling right on top of the opposing team's huddle. I can't tell you how many teams would have to move their huddle out onto the court to get away from the noise, taking them out of their routine and keeping them rattled the whole game.

There's also some coordination issues between the u-grads and the grad students on both ends. It's simply corrected by better communication between the undergrads and the grad students in those sections before the games. As HLM, I would go over to talk to the Phalanx every single game...mostly just to say hey, but at that time we would coordinate different cheers. If they had come up with a cheer to do or dirt on an opposing team's player, I could relay it to the people in the middle of the undergrads and tell them to look out for it. I also chatted with some band leaders, the cheerleaders and even the Dancing Devils before games when a cheer required their assistance. Everyone was on the same page, and it showed in how loud we were and how clear the chants could be heard, on TV and in person...we were in unison. That's a very easy thing to do, and whenever a cheer was to be started, everyone downstairs knew who to look to in order to start the chant. They started it slow and enunciated and it took off from there.

Also, the chants were the same as they are now (though we didn't do Gooo Devils Go). We didn't do the arm hex except on inbounds plays and when the other team came on and left the court. At times, all that was required was that we were loud. Sure we had creative chants, but they were calculated in its spontaneity and everyone knew when to break it out. It may have been a simple time, but we did it well. That hasn't been lost in this current crop of Crazies, but I think that at times they forget that simple and loud as a jet engine can be just as creative as being intricate but not as loud. The intimidation factor rests in the fact that for 2 hours, you cannot even hear yourself think over the din of 9314 (yes, upstairs too), the fact that we made it so that the other team was always outside of their comfort zone. At the end of the 2 hours, you have lost your voice, your head aches worse than the worst hangover, and you've probably sweated off 7-10 pounds. But, you drink a couple bottles of water and take an aspirin and begin to get ready for the next chance to lose your voice for the team.

When people realize how fun Cameron really can be (and I don't think the Crazies have tapped that potential yet), that will help with some of the attendance issues. There are probably many other factors that are affecting the attendance as well, but the people who are in there are the ones who can affect the game the most. That takes coordination while remaining simple in its creativity.

[msdukie]

when you're trying to convince your average student to attend a game, the opponent is absolutely relevant.

Duke isn't supposed to have average students.

[uh_no]

Duke isn't supposed to have average students.

edit: when you're trying to convince an exceptionally smart student who has an orgo midterm on monday, the opponent matters

[loldevilz]

As a student I can say that its a lot more fun to watch the games on TV than actually go to the games and a lot more practical. I went my freshman year and jumped up and down and yelled, but when you have 2-3 hours of homework every night its not practical. By watching on TV you save a least an hour of time. You can work on homework during the breaks and drink a few beers. You can discuss the game with friends and yell at the tv. Plus you don't have to stand for 3 hours straight.

[devildeac]

I won't take the time to address the drop in attendance right now (many of you know I have some experience with these sort of things) except to say that I believe that the 1200 capacity number for undergrads is a bit off. It's more like 900 on the TV side. When I was HLM, our max capacity was 1200, and that included the "non-TV" section that we had (though we routinely had way more inside). What I will comment on is what many perceive is the lack of coordination and creativity among the current Crazies. I think a lot of the coordination problems started when the undergrads lost these non-TV seats, complete with the buffer zone. It's incredibly difficult to hear a chant being started in Cameron over the din. When I was there, most cheers either started from the middle of the TV side or from the Phalanx (Mullet, Throaty, Viking Guy and Baldy) in the grad section. For those who couldn't see those people (and there were plenty of angles in the TV side where you couldn't), people would look to the non-TV side, who could clearly see and hear the chant that was being started, and pick up the chant. That way, people are still focused on the court instead of turning their heads away from the action to pick up what's going on. Not to mention, with the non-TV side, we would have hundreds of students yelling right on top of the opposing team's huddle. I can't tell you how many teams would have to move their huddle out onto the court to get away from the noise, taking them out of their routine and keeping them rattled the whole game.

There's also some coordination issues between the u-grads and the grad students on both ends. It's simply corrected by better communication between the undergrads and the grad students in those sections before the games. As HLM, I would go over to talk to the Phalanx every single game...mostly just to say hey, but at that time we would coordinate different cheers. If they had come up with a cheer to do or dirt on an opposing team's player, I could relay it to the people in the middle of the undergrads and tell them to look out for it. I also chatted with some band leaders, the cheerleaders and even the Dancing Devils before games when a cheer required their assistance. Everyone was on the same page, and it showed in how loud we were and how clear the chants could be heard, on TV and in person...we were in unison. That's a very easy thing to do, and whenever a cheer was to be started, everyone downstairs knew who to look to in order to start the chant. They started it slow and enunciated and it took off from there.

Also, the chants were the same as they are now (though we didn't do Gooo Devils Go). We didn't do the arm hex except on inbounds plays and when the other team came on and left the court. At times, all that was required was that we were loud. Sure we had creative chants, but they were calculated in its spontaneity and everyone knew when to break it out. It may have been a simple time, but we did it well. That hasn't been lost in this current crop of Crazies, but I think that at times they forget that simple and loud as a jet engine can be just as creative as being intricate but not as loud. The intimidation factor rests in the fact that for 2 hours, you cannot even hear yourself think over the din of 9314 (yes, upstairs too), the fact that we made it so that the other team was always outside of their comfort zone. At the end of the 2 hours, you have lost your voice, your head aches worse than the worst hangover, and you've probably sweated off 7-10 pounds. But, you drink a couple bottles of water and take an aspirin and begin to get ready for the next chance to lose your voice for the team.

When people realize how fun Cameron really can be (and I don't think the Crazies have tapped that potential yet), that will help with some of the attendance issues. There are probably many other factors that are affecting the attendance as well, but the people who are in there are the ones who can affect the game the most. That takes coordination while remaining simple in its creativity.

QFE

ATTENTION: Native and Rolvix. Have you read this and will you act on it? Gauntlet established ;>)) .

[dukebsbll14]

I won't take the time to address the drop in attendance right now (many of you know I have some experience with these sort of things) except to say that I believe that the 1200 capacity number for undergrads is a bit off. It's more like 900 on the TV side. When I was HLM, our max capacity was 1200, and that included the "non-TV" section that we had (though we routinely had way more inside). What I will comment on is what many perceive is the lack of coordination and creativity among the current Crazies. I think a lot of the coordination problems started when the undergrads lost these non-TV seats, complete with the buffer zone. It's incredibly difficult to hear a chant being started in Cameron over the din. When I was there, most cheers either started from the middle of the TV side or from the Phalanx (Mullet, Throaty, Viking Guy and Baldy) in the grad section. For those who couldn't see those people (and there were plenty of angles in the TV side where you couldn't), people would look to the non-TV side, who could clearly see and hear the chant that was being started, and pick up the chant. That way, people are still focused on the court instead of turning their heads away from the action to pick up what's going on. Not to mention, with the non-TV side, we would have hundreds of students yelling right on top of the opposing team's huddle. I can't tell you how many teams would have to move their huddle out onto the court to get away from the noise, taking them out of their routine and keeping them rattled the whole game.

There's also some coordination issues between the u-grads and the grad students on both ends. It's simply corrected by better communication between the undergrads and the grad students in those sections before the games. As HLM, I would go over to talk to the Phalanx every single game...mostly just to say hey, but at that time we would coordinate different cheers. If they had come up with a cheer to do or dirt on an opposing team's player, I could relay it to the people in the middle of the undergrads and tell them to look out for it. I also chatted with some band leaders, the cheerleaders and even the Dancing Devils before games when a cheer required their assistance. Everyone was on the same page, and it showed in how loud we were and how clear the chants could be heard, on TV and in person...we were in unison. That's a very easy thing to do, and whenever a cheer was to be started, everyone downstairs knew who to look to in order to start the chant. They started it slow and enunciated and it took off from there.

Also, the chants were the same as they are now (though we didn't do Gooo Devils Go). We didn't do the arm hex except on inbounds plays and when the other team came on and left the court. At times, all that was required was that we were loud. Sure we had creative chants, but they were calculated in its spontaneity and everyone knew when to break it out. It may have been a simple time, but we did it well. That hasn't been lost in this current crop of Crazies, but I think that at times they forget that simple and loud as a jet engine can be just as creative as being intricate but not as loud. The intimidation factor rests in the fact that for 2 hours, you cannot even hear yourself think over the din of 9314 (yes, upstairs too), the fact that we made it so that the other team was always outside of their comfort zone. At the end of the 2 hours, you have lost your voice, your head aches worse than the worst hangover, and you've probably sweated off 7-10 pounds. But, you drink a couple bottles of water and take an aspirin and begin to get ready for the next chance to lose your voice for the team.

When people realize how fun Cameron really can be (and I don't think the Crazies have tapped that potential yet), that will help with some of the attendance issues. There are probably many other factors that are affecting the attendance as well, but the people who are in there are the ones who can affect the game the most. That takes coordination while remaining simple in its creativity.

We talked to the grad students a little bit before the game on Saturday. Passed on some new cheer ideas, not everyone got the word, but for the first time I thought they went alright. Definitely something that's going to happen every game.

It's not likely that every game we come up with "the Greatest player specific taunt of all-time." But what we can do is make the SG miss the play and be in the wrong position or break the PG's concentration for a split-second and let our guys get a steal. The major concern, I think, is how do we get the people beyond the first 2-3 rows doing stuff. I don't know what its like from up top, but from the front I'll look back every now and again and see almost no one doing anything. Or my friends will stand back there and tell me everyone just stands there blank-faced all game. We can be as loud and enthusiastic as possible, but if no one picks us up, we can't do anything about that.

[Native]

QFE

ATTENTION: Native and Rolvix. Have you read this and will you act on it? Gauntlet established ;>)) .

Already on it, and I have been for the past week.

[devildeac]

Already on it, and I have been for the past week.

I thought you had already taken action ;>)) . You are a fine fellow (no matter what your Grandma and Grandpa say about you from the top of Section 14-lol).

[Channing]

As a student I can say that its a lot more fun to watch the games on TV than actually go to the games and a lot more practical. I went my freshman year and jumped up and down and yelled, but when you have 2-3 hours of homework every night its not practical. By watching on TV you save a least an hour of time. You can work on homework during the breaks and drink a few beers. You can discuss the game with friends and yell at the tv. Plus you don't have to stand for 3 hours straight.

At the risk of making a personal attack ... ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?

Perhaps herein lies the rub. If todays "Crazies" would rather watch on TV than in person, Cameron will never be able to regain its mojo. When I was at Duke (not that long ago - I was BlazinDW's year) being a Cameron Crazie wasn't about practicality. It was about being part of the team. We worked hard back then - everyone had section and labs and homework, but somehow we made it work. Even the Sunday evening games were full (even if inconvenient).

I'm sorry, if anyone would rather watch on TV than in Cameron ... Cameron Indoor Stadium ... and in Section 17 no less ... then I have a hard time identifying that persons as anything more than a casual fan, and certainly not a Crazy.

[blazindw]

At the risk of making a personal attack ... ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?

Perhaps herein lies the rub. If todays "Crazies" would rather watch on TV than in person, Cameron will never be able to regain its mojo. When I was at Duke (not that long ago - I was BlazinDW's year) being a Cameron Crazie wasn't about practicality. It was about being part of the team. We worked hard back then - everyone had section and labs and homework, but somehow we made it work. Even the Sunday evening games were full (even if inconvenient).

I'm sorry, if anyone would rather watch on TV than in Cameron ... Cameron Indoor Stadium ... and in Section 17 no less ... then I have a hard time identifying that persons as anything more than a casual fan, and certainly not a Crazy.

Students would routinely bring textbooks to Cameron and read them at halftime if they had a lot of work. The good thing about our schedule is that it's plotted out way in advance. I actually didn't take some classes because they met on Wednesday nights, when we used to have a ton of games. And for big games like UNC, I would make sure all my homework was out of the way for the entire week. That way, I had 2 days to prepare for the game (in addition to personal checks) and 2 days to recover.

As HLM, I found the solution to the class problem: only take one real class. ;)

[DukeDevilDeb]

At the risk of making a personal attack ... ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?

Perhaps herein lies the rub. If todays "Crazies" would rather watch on TV than in person, Cameron will never be able to regain its mojo. When I was at Duke (not that long ago - I was BlazinDW's year) being a Cameron Crazie wasn't about practicality. It was about being part of the team. We worked hard back then - everyone had section and labs and homework, but somehow we made it work. Even the Sunday evening games were full (even if inconvenient).

I'm sorry, if anyone would rather watch on TV than in Cameron ... Cameron Indoor Stadium ... and in Section 17 no less ... then I have a hard time identifying that persons as anything more than a casual fan, and certainly not a Crazy.

Those of us who sit upstairs have taken lots of __ __ __ __ (fill in the blanks yourself) from the Crazies about not cheering loudly enough, not standing up, not whatever. This year, I notice that I am cheering at times when the Crazies are not.

Man, if you want to watch on TV and drink a few beers, more power to you! But you DON'T belong at Duke and you shouldn't call yourself a Crazie! Most of us would give our left arms to sit (or stand) down on the floor and be right at the action. So, if you can guarantee me a place there, I would happily give you my upper tier ticket...

If you honestly don't want to go, don't care if Duke wins, just come for the big games, or whatever million excuses you have (including an orgo test which, in my mind, is one of the silliest reasons to miss a game)... then don't read this site, don't call yourself a Duke fan, don't DARE call yourselves Crazies... these attitudes sound more like the wine and cheese crowd at you know where.

Non-conference game on Saturday, but an excellent opponent. Can we show St. John's that Duke students are have not given up. Crazies were legend once... but as one of the ESPN writers said, are vastly overrated now.

Bring back the spirit; take back OUR HOUSE. This team needs its 6th man (or woman) more than many.

Go Devils!

[jv001]

As a student I can say that its a lot more fun to watch the games on TV than actually go to the games and a lot more practical. I went my freshman year and jumped up and down and yelled, but when you have 2-3 hours of homework every night its not practical. By watching on TV you save a least an hour of time. You can work on homework during the breaks and drink a few beers. You can discuss the game with friends and yell at the tv. Plus you don't have to stand for 3 hours straight.

You don't go to the games because you have 2-3 hours of homework that you work on during breaks, but you do drink beer while on these breaks. Your homework must not be very hard if you can get high(cause I doubt you stop at 1 or 2) in that hour break. There are just so many home games each year and usually only 2 per week. Maybe you like watching the game with your friends so you can second guess our HOF coach. Where as if you're at the game, you wouldn't have much time to do so. That is if you're cheering like you're supposed to. I just don't get it. Sounds like a privileged Duke fan to me. GoDuke!

[jjasper0729]

As a student I can say that its a lot more fun to watch the games on TV than actually go to the games and a lot more practical. I went my freshman year and jumped up and down and yelled, but when you have 2-3 hours of homework every night its not practical. By watching on TV you save a least an hour of time. You can work on homework during the breaks and drink a few beers. You can discuss the game with friends and yell at the tv. Plus you don't have to stand for 3 hours straight.

Oh! My! God! This has GOT to be a sign that the apacolypse is indeed near.

I've been in Cameron for all but a few games (I can count them on two hands) 16 out of the past 19 seasons since I was a freshman in the 92-93 year. Even in the Gaudet year, the students came out and wanted to be there because they thought they could help turn things around. My eleven year old watches games on TV and every time I go to a game, he asks why can't he go too because he wants to be right there. He does all the cheers on the couch (when we watch away games).

I've seen the crowd drop into some predictability over the years and it's seemed to become something that you "do" at Duke now. Tenting is because you're "supposed" to not because you want to get the best seat anymore, like a rite of passage. The true fans are there and you can seem them every game.

The changes in Cameron have left me a little discouraged to be honest. I honestly was appalled to see a noise meter a few games ago. Everything is scripted. You know what the band will play during each time out and what all the routines are. Maybe adjust things around in that regard. I tend to despise the NBA-ification of Cameron, but have been told it's what all the recruits and players are looking for. I would wager if we could have Cameron at its best, there'd be no need for the camera looks from the student section. Maybe the line monitors could work with the marketing/relations group to only have the video board cameras panning the upper deck... just a thought.

But to the quote above... if you don't want to go see the game in person, then that's fine. It's your perogative. But don't say it's better than being there live. That's just absurd on the face of it. I enjoy every game I attend and they will have to pry my dead body off my seat for me to leave it if I have anything to say about it.

[MulletMan]

Already on it, and I have been for the past week.

I will vouch. You know its funny... Blazin' said a lot of the same things in his post that I've been telling Native. I guess we're not totally senile in our old age, huh, DW?

[DukeCO2009]

If I learned anything at Duke, it was how to balance work and fun. For the love of Matt Christensen, you can't take 3 hours off from studying to go to a basketball game? If that's really the problem--if you like basketball but "can't seem to find the time" to attend games--you have time management issues and probably shouldn't be at Duke. Learn to compartmentalize your lives and set aside time for both work and fun; if you don't, you'll burn out before you know it. Life isn't all about getting straight A's and setting the curve (although both are nice). More than anything college is about staying up way too late, drinking way too much, going to way too many sporting events/concerts, making great friends, and doing things that you won't be able to do once you get a job.

I'll also add that if you don't like basketball, please continue to stay home so people who give a damn and will scream their heads off can have your seats. FWIW, I thought the FSU game sounded AWESOME on TV, so whoever ended up in the bleachers did a great job.

[blazindw]

I will vouch. You know its funny... Blazin' said a lot of the same things in his post that I've been telling Native. I guess we're not totally senile in our old age, huh, DW?

Great minds think alike even in our advanced minds! Glad that Native has been collaborating with you...he's rocking with the best!

[Zeke]

The day that students are not able to get into a home game becomes the day that the team becomes just a team from Durham and not representing the university. Coach K himself has said how fortunate that Duke's improvement coincided with the advent of ESPN. Now, is it becoming a brand under ESPN? Is the need for stands full of people - even 40+ jerks in undershirts or elementary school age children - just for TV? Everyone knows when those people are shown that they are not Duke students.

Duke students have paid for the tickets in their student activities fee. The university/athletic department should not be allowed to sell those tickets twice. After all, this should be a student choice whether to attend or not. It reflects badly on the university to coerce them.

[devil84]

Just a friendly reminder to make sure that we aren't attacking anyone in particular when expressing incredulity/outrage at others' opinions. :)

That said, I just cannot fathom students wanting to watch it on TV when they could be there in person. Two big reasons: Elmore and Vitale ('nuff said). Orgo test? Plan ahead. My kids come to nearly every game...one has her degree from NCSU and is now at UNC-G, the other is pre-med at Wake Forest and has the whole orgo thing, too. They spend more time driving than they do in Cameron! Spending six hours to attend Duke's home games hasn't hurt their GPA and they are active in other campus organizations, too. If these two can do it, I'm sure the average Duke student can, too. It's all about priorities.

One thing I will remind the current crop of Duke students: when you interview for jobs (or grad schools), it is VERY likely an interviewer will ask you, "So, did you camp out, paint yourself blue and act like an idiot during the games?" The answer they are looking for is "YES!" because they would love to hear first hand stories from one of the greatest college sports experiences ever. So far, it's happened to me in EVERY interview I've ever been through. Answering a question like this really gives you the opportunity to let your personality shine through. Your anecdotes will show you are not just another one-dimensional candidate, you can prove your stellar time management skills, demonstrate your creativity, and note that your team spirit will obviously spill over into your future position. Don't answer that question, "Yeah, I went to a few and texted through the game," or "eh, the line was too long so I watched it on TV while studying." Be able to answer that interview question in a manner that benefits you, and provide details that your interviewer really wants to hear: your favorite chant, the most creative taunt, what you wore. Interviewers may tend to side with the non-students on this thread, wondering what kind of student passes up that kind of experience and if that kind of person fits on their team. Get to Cameron and cheer -- your career may depend on it!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The day that students are not able to get into a home game becomes the day that the team becomes just a team from Durham and not representing the university. Coach K himself has said how fortunate that Duke's improvement coincided with the advent of ESPN. Now, is it becoming a brand under ESPN? Is the need for stands full of people - even 40+ jerks in undershirts or elementary school age children - just for TV? Everyone knows when those people are shown that they are not Duke students.

Duke students have paid for the tickets in their student activities fee. The university/athletic department should not be allowed to sell those tickets twice. After all, this should be a student choice whether to attend or not. It reflects badly on the university to coerce them.
When I was an undergraduate some years ago, we said the same thing about selling seats students had paid for. I've realized since then that having the place full is important, too.

Changes in space available for students, demographics, technology and on and on have been evolving for decades. Maybe it's like plate tectonics at work: change has been creeping along for a very long time, but acknowledging the changes, seeking the the causes and dealing with it all are slower to develop.

[AZLA]

As a student I can say that its a lot more fun to watch the games on TV than actually go to the games and a lot more practical. I went my freshman year and jumped up and down and yelled, but when you have 2-3 hours of homework every night its not practical. By watching on TV you save a least an hour of time. You can work on homework during the breaks and drink a few beers. You can discuss the game with friends and yell at the tv. Plus you don't have to stand for 3 hours straight.

Only 3 hours of homework?!

Geez, you guys have it easy nowadays... :)

C'mon, get in touch with your inner honey badger and pick a double-major.

Take your books, er, Kindles and iPads with you and study in line.

Has the cheese done slid off the cracker?

[Bluedog]

While we're all giving lolzdevilz a hard time, I think he brings up a point that some students share. At 6'3" tall, I always had a decent view at least and loved going to games in the student section; the experience cannot be matched. Lots of my girl friends found the experience of games exciting, but could barely see the court since people in front of them would undoubtedly block their view. When you're 5'2" tall and three 6'+ tall guys are in front of you, it can basically be impossible to see. With the advent of nice large HD TVs, the home watching experience is probably better from a "can I see the actual basketball playing?" perspective than watching it in person if your view is blocked. Now I think the experience of being in the crowd should overcome that potential shortcoming, but as a tall guy I didn't have to deal with it. And for a casual fan, not being able to see anything on the court is a deterrent. Obviously, we don't want to change to sitting only so there's no solution to this except to ramp up the excitement level even more and show how great of an experience it is. I think this is a phenomenon we're seeing in a wide range of sports these days.

On another note, when only 650 students are going to the game on average, that is only 10% of the student body. And I bet the 10% is segmented among certain social groups. For somewhere who is perhaps a more casual fan and would go to the games if their friends were going, having 90% not going makes that individual not interested as they obviously don't want to go to games alone. They should probably find friends in the 10%, though.

I also heard of students who showed up about 15 minutes before tipoff against FSU on the weekend and did not get seated in the student section - it was full by that point. Instead, however, they were given seats in the upper deck so at least they got in the game. But it seems to be a bit false (at least for the FSU game, I'm sure Wake had plenty of availability) that if you show up at tipoff, you'll get a seat in the student section.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Any suggestions from you "veterans" as to how we can get Krzyzewski and the powers that be to give some air time back to the Crazies? They simply cannot compete with the onslaught of piped-in, ear-splitting I-guess-you-could-call-it-music and loud speaker commercials. Cameron is tightly choreographed second to second. It's precisely the same program every single time. You can set your watch by it and there is absolutely NO dead air! Native and Co. are trying their hardest to be creative and help everybody have fun while they do their job. They just can't get a word in edgewise! And I'm beginning to wonder why so many of them even try. All that's left for them to do is dress up silly and watch for themselves on the jumbotron.

It's tough holding your own when the "producers" only consider you the supporting cast of their off Broadway show. And let's not kid ourselves. That's what it's become. You get the distinct feeling that Cameron is considered to be K's private rehearsal venue for taking his real show to the bigger stage.

We've not heard a single comment supporting all this glitz from ANYbody. And PLENTY of rants against it. What do we have to do to get the message up to the ivory tower? Maybe the kids should all go on strike for a game and let the "producers" see how playing to an empty house goes. That's show biz.

Hooray for the students who keep trying to be heard above it all and be a part of things. Hooray for the grad students who take part, too. The band is improved and rocks! You guys are ALL terrific. And we're glad you have each other!

Whoever is running things has simply lost sight of what made Cameron Cameron even before any National Championships. Give us Our House BACK!
Love, Ima

[DrChainsaw]

We'll fill it. Distribute through the Affairs Office to keep out the fakes & trolls.

[Lid]

Lots of my girl friends found the experience of games exciting, but could barely see the court since people in front of them would undoubtedly block their view. When you're 5'2" tall and three 6'+ tall guys are in front of you, it can basically be impossible to see.
I'm 5'8" (okay, fine, 5'7 1/2") and can completely relate to this experience. My solutions:

Jump. A lot.
DVR the game and watch it again after I get home.


Problem solved.

[Bluedog]

I'm 5'8" (okay, fine, 5'7 1/2") and can completely relate to this experience. My solutions:

Jump. A lot.
DVR the game and watch it again after I get home.


Problem solved.

If you have a DVR. I couldn't even afford cable in college. ;) But, yes, I'd think jumping would help for sure. Again, being tall I didn't have to deal with it too often, although there were a few games when somebody was like 6'5"+ in front of me, and I remember thinking, "this is what people behind me have to deal with every game? Man, they must hate me." haha

[duke1113]

I spoke with a person in Marketing yesterday...I believe it was the individual quoted in the Chronicle article. He said that pre-game is very much scripted and that they never want there to be a dead time, so it's scripted out between videos, music, band, sponsor readers. They have made a conscious effort to begin to turn down the music any time the students are chanting (I did notice this at FSU during the pregame).

In terms of in-game, it's all up to the students. They never use any piped in music unless for a dance group occasionally like the Dancing Devils. Every single time out is a quick sponsored PA read and then the band plays/students cheer. Never any music or anything to compete against so students have no excuse for their in-game lack of creativity.


Any suggestions from you "veterans" as to how we can get Krzyzewski and the powers that be to give some air time back to the Crazies? They simply cannot compete with the onslaught of piped-in, ear-splitting I-guess-you-could-call-it-music and loud speaker commercials. Cameron is tightly choreographed second to second. It's precisely the same program every single time. You can set your watch by it and there is absolutely NO dead air! Native and Co. are trying their hardest to be creative and help everybody have fun while they do their job. They just can't get a word in edgewise! And I'm beginning to wonder why so many of them even try. All that's left for them to do is dress up silly and watch for themselves on the jumbotron.

It's tough holding your own when the "producers" only consider you the supporting cast of their off Broadway show. And let's not kid ourselves. That's what it's become. You get the distinct feeling that Cameron is considered to be K's private rehearsal venue for taking his real show to the bigger stage.

We've not heard a single comment supporting all this glitz from ANYbody. And PLENTY of rants against it. What do we have to do to get the message up to the ivory tower? Maybe the kids should all go on strike for a game and let the "producers" see how playing to an empty house goes. That's show biz.

Hooray for the students who keep trying to be heard above it all and be a part of things. Hooray for the grad students who take part, too. The band is improved and rocks! You guys are ALL terrific. And we're glad you have each other!

Whoever is running things has simply lost sight of what made Cameron Cameron even before any National Championships. Give us Our House BACK!
Love, Ima

[devildeac]

We'll fill it. Distribute through the Affairs Office to keep out the fakes & trolls.

Ozzie and I will join you. Front row. Right behind the Crazies. I'll see if I can get him to tell the short story about us at the RBC Center about 6 years ago. Simply posting this should entice him to appear later today ;>)) .

I'd bet another small amount of OPK's retirement fund that we could drag Devil84 with us, too.

[Bojangles4Eva]

As a student I can say that its a lot more fun to watch the games on TV than actually go to the games and a lot more practical.

Obviously it's a free country, and you have every right to voice this opinion, but I'd just like to point out what going to Duke games is like for those of us who are not students/alum, nor are regular ticket holders. This was the situation I grew up in in Durham, and anytime (from when I was about 6 to now) if the opportunity came up to get tickets, it was an honor and a privilege to go see Duke crush William and Mary, or whatever cupcake winter break team they were playing. That is the only times many people who don't fit into the above categories ever have the opportunity to purchase tickets (always from season ticket holders who could not make the games).

Cameron is such a tiny place, and with such a high demand for tickets, I don't know if students fully realize the scope of the opportunity they have to watch one of the most storied programs, on one of the most famous home courts of the NCAA Div I all time winning-est coach. Many would sacrifice a lot to be in that position, including Durhamites growing up as Duke fans who rarely have the opportunity to attend games.

Watch it on T.V. if you must, but just know you are missing out on a once in a lifetime opportunity, and reflect on how privilaged you are to have that opportunity.

[-jk]

I spoke with a person in Marketing yesterday...I believe it was the individual quoted in the Chronicle article. He said that pre-game is very much scripted and that they never want there to be a dead time, so it's scripted out between videos, music, band, sponsor readers. They have made a conscious effort to begin to turn down the music any time the students are chanting (I did notice this at FSU during the pregame).

In terms of in-game, it's all up to the students. They never use any piped in music unless for a dance group occasionally like the Dancing Devils. Every single time out is a quick sponsored PA read and then the band plays/students cheer. Never any music or anything to compete against so students have no excuse for their in-game lack of creativity.

Thanks for taking the time to contact Marketing. I hope they're reading this thread.

Scripting is all well and good, but I don't see a slot for the students to be spontaneous before the game. That makes it harder to get going - they need time to warm up, too!

Filling all available time might have been useful during the preseason games when there wasn't so much energy, but I would think - certainly hope - that as the conference season rolls on and some student leadership takes the reins, it would be less necessary.

Do you think there any way for the Marketing people to recognize the need for the students to just be themselves? And perhaps to be more reactive rather than proactive so that the music just doesn't start (scripted or not) if the students want to harass - in the nicest ways possible, of course - the other guys?

And for the love of God, please ask Marketing (next time you talk to them) to keep the damned fake noise meter off the board. I had vile visions of Reynolds' fake meter - a meter that bore no relationship to the actual noise, whatsoever. Ours didn't either. Very disappointing.

thanks,

-jk

[weezie]

Yeah if we ditch the fake Noisemeter, maybe we can squeeze in a timeouts remaining register!
Maybe we can all ask marketing with our best manners.

[duke1113]

Definitely asked them about the noise meter too! They said it was used twice during the UVA game and got some feedback on it and have not used it since. They are definitely very willing to listen to everyone's ideas and there was an example of them trying something out, it not working, and them not doing it again. Live and learn, I guess.

[Lid]

Definitely asked them about the noise meter too! They said it was used twice during the UVA game and got some feedback on it and have not used it since. They are definitely very willing to listen to everyone's ideas and there was an example of them trying something out, it not working, and them not doing it again. Live and learn, I guess.

They used it at the women's game vs. Maryland, too, which was after the UVA game. I guess I need to dig up the marketing contact info and pass on my opinion.

[jjasper0729]

They used it at the women's game vs. Maryland, too, which was after the UVA game. I guess I need to dig up the marketing contact info and pass on my opinion.

It made an appearance against UVa for the first time and it appeared one time during the Wake Forest game. It wasn't used during the FSU game. I don't know if it was up on the big board during wake forest, but i definitely saw it once on the press row screen in front of the students. But again, not during FSU

[Kfanarmy]

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, but CBS Sportsline has picked up on the Chronicle story:

Cameron Lazies (http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/34554615)

Pretty sad.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/45918/bag-wherefore-art-thou-cameron-crazies

Seems like a challenge

[johnb]

It may be that students can walk right in, but the tents are daunting. If there are only a couple of sellouts a year, then perhaps KVille needs to be torn down or reassessed, and the seat assignments reorganized. Yep, that would mean that the best seats could possibly go to the unworthy, but I think it might make entry seem less painful. It might also be possible to send out texts if there really are seats available before the game--would students not want to walk over from their rooms 10" away?? That's weird, but it would make sense that many students aren't basketball fans. Do people think the student body has actually changed? The common wisdom is that Admissions is no longer selecting for the well rounded student but instead angling for the angled student, and my assumption is that the more focused student is going to be less interested in bball hoopla than the hail fellow well met who used to be the median Duke student.

[DukieInKansas]

Another view from an old timer. I wasn't really a huge basketball fan when I got to Duke. I was there for the last 2 years of Bill Foster and the first two of Krzyzewski. (Of course, I did matriculate at age 5. ;) ) Going to games was fun because I went with friends and made more friends there. I became a big basketball through those years. I remember bringing books to study before the games and at halftime. I had a Prob and Stats professor that scheduled his tests at night for the two sections he taught instead of during regular class times so he only had to write one exam. When the syllabus was handed out, I checked the bball schedule and requested the conflicting test dates be changed. He always agreed to do so as the request was made at the beginning of the semester. Of course, tenting wasn't required back then. The longest time in line was for the unc game - 13 hours in the rain and then they let us in 4 hours before game time. The place was noisy from that time on. I think I may have missed a handful of games that weren't over breaks during the 4 years - and those were because of sorority rush. Being at the game was the important part - seeing was great but the atmosphere was better. Of course, I'm fairly tall and did spend most of the games in the second row of students behind the Duke bench for the first two years. Loved the time outs - better viewing of the players. :o

I have wondered over the last few years if I would have gone to as many games if I had to be in line that long and even longer for games. I honestly don't know if I would. Perhaps, as mentioned by someone earlier in the thread, it is time to adjust K-ville/lines/seats for some of the games that may not draw as big a crowd. Make it a bit easier for students to get in without a huge investment of time before the doors open and you might make fans of those that aren't really fans yet.

I thought the students were more involved during the FSU game. I can't wait to get home from work on Saturday and see if they are even better. Now if I could just be sure no one will spill the beans about the outcome until after the dinner party Saturday night, I'll have really accomplished something.

Enough rambling - I need to go kick those kids off my lawn. :D

[uh_no]

It may be that students can walk right in, but the tents are daunting. If there are only a couple of sellouts a year, then perhaps KVille needs to be torn down or reassessed, and the seat assignments reorganized. Yep, that would mean that the best seats could possibly go to the unworthy, but I think it might make entry seem less painful. It might also be possible to send out texts if there really are seats available before the game--would students not want to walk over from their rooms 10" away?? That's weird, but it would make sense that many students aren't basketball fans. Do people think the student body has actually changed? The common wisdom is that Admissions is no longer selecting for the well rounded student but instead angling for the angled student, and my assumption is that the more focused student is going to be less interested in bball hoopla than the hail fellow well met who used to be the median Duke student.

to your first point, the HLM generally sends out emails or texts about the amount of seats remaining

to your second, the student body is SIGNIFICANTLY more diverse (international, whatever) than it was 10 or 20 years ago, now, whether can demonstrate any sort of causation is a different question

[airowe]

Thanks for taking the time to contact Marketing. I hope they're reading this thread.

Scripting is all well and good, but I don't see a slot for the students to be spontaneous before the game. That makes it harder to get going - they need time to warm up, too!

Filling all available time might have been useful during the preseason games when there wasn't so much energy, but I would think - certainly hope - that as the conference season rolls on and some student leadership takes the reins, it would be less necessary.

Do you think there any way for the Marketing people to recognize the need for the students to just be themselves? And perhaps to be more reactive rather than proactive so that the music just doesn't start (scripted or not) if the students want to harass - in the nicest ways possible, of course - the other guys?

And for the love of God, please ask Marketing (next time you talk to them) to keep the damned fake noise meter off the board. I had vile visions of Reynolds' fake meter - a meter that bore no relationship to the actual noise, whatsoever. Ours didn't either. Very disappointing.

thanks,

-jk

-jk,

They are reading this thread and they are doing what they can to listen to peoples' concerns and suggestions. The scripting comes into play because there are only so many breaks in action to get the messages out over the PA that need to be voiced. They are sensitive to the students' chants and turn down any pregame or halftime music to allow students' voices to be heard. There are people in place who respect what Cameron represents and want to maintain her integrity as much as possible. For that, I think we all can be happy.

Keep voicing your thoughts here though. They are being heard.

[Dev11]

I have seen it mentioned here, and I've mentioned it in a few other threads, but I can't emphasize enough how annoying the height issue is. There are about 4 or 6 inches from one bleacher to the next, so if you're 5-5 like me, you better be in the first two rows, otherwise you can't see ANYTHING. I mean ANYTHING. For all the games I spent in the 4th row, I had to lean over to my taller buddies and ask what happened on every possession. On the few occasions when I had some prior commitment that would force me to walk in at game time, I would skip the game, because I couldn't see it. I know it sounds ridiculous because Section 17 is legitimately one of the coolest places in the whole world, but if you can't see the game, you can't see the game. In that regard, I can understand the argument that watching at home is better. Generally speaking, though, being there is definitely better. It's Cameron.

I hope more students show up, and I hope the powers-that-be figure out how to help them out. Pointing fingers sucks and doesn't solve anything. That being said...

Dear average-sized people: please ditch the blue wigs. The vertically challenged thank you deeply.

[Starter]

I think the time issue is probably overblown. I do think the people who pointed out that the environment has changed in Cameron are on to something. I graduated in 2001, and the atmosphere at Cameron was reverential. There was no canned noise, so we made our own, building slowly to a crescendo with the band's music and the understated introduction of players. When I went to my first game since I was a student in December, I was pretty put off by the MSG style pop music and video presentation before the lineups. I thought it was pretty corny, honestly. I get that Duke basketball has taken strides to become more with it -- Duke Blue Planet and such are excellent and relevant -- but the loss of atmosphere is disappointing. Every game against every opponent felt special to me when I was there, because it seemed like the perfect atmosphere and setting for basketball. It was impossible to expect it to stay exactly that way forever, but though people sit on top of the Green Monster at Fenway now... they still have the Green Monster at Fenway.

[dukedoc]

From the Chronicle Blog (http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2012/01/26/krzyzewski-sends-message-to-cameron-crazies/)

After Wednesday night’s 74-61 win in front of a fired-up crowd at the Comcast Center, Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski had a message for the Cameron Crazies:

“I’d like to ask our fans to respond. I don’t think they realize how important they are for this team. This team is trying to develop and don’t just watch them, be with them. They need your support. This Saturday let’s be out there at noon and be the Cameron Crazies. If you don’t want to do it, then don’t, but it will be a mistake. I think sometimes you just take things for granted.”

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

From the Chronicle Blog (http://sports.chronicleblogs.com/2012/01/26/krzyzewski-sends-message-to-cameron-crazies/)

After Wednesday night’s 74-61 win in front of a fired-up crowd at the Comcast Center, Duke head coach Mike Krzyzewski had a message for the Cameron Crazies:

“I’d like to ask our fans to respond. I don’t think they realize how important they are for this team. This team is trying to develop and don’t just watch them, be with them. They need your support. This Saturday let’s be out there at noon and be the Cameron Crazies. If you don’t want to do it, then don’t, but it will be a mistake. I think sometimes you just take things for granted.”

Then give us a chance to be inventive, creative and heard! We ALL want there to be no dead space, but give the Crazies a chance to contribute!
Love, Ima

[duke1113]

They have all game to be heard! It's just the band and students usually after 1 or 2 announcements each timeout. Again, all the dead space talk was about pregame. Be heard in-game, Crazies. That's when it matters.


Then give us a chance to be inventive, creative and heard! We ALL want there to be no dead space, but give the Crazies a chance to contribute!
Love, Ima

[devil84]

They have all game to be heard! It's just the band and students usually after 1 or 2 announcements each timeout. Again, all the dead space talk was about pregame. Be heard in-game, Crazies. That's when it matters.

Players take a lot of time to warm up. The band warms up before they play. The cheerleaders stretch. The Crazies need time to warm up, too. If you're standing for an hour unable to cheer (and can't really hear the person next to you), when it all of the sudden goes quiet after the intro, the Crazies are starting cold on the first posession. We wouldn't ask the players, band, or cheerleaders to start cold!

[Zeke]

I've read in this thread about a lot of different groups who can't get into the Indoor Stadium or can only get in with a wait of several hours. Students feel they have more productive things to do than stand in line for hours. The athletic dept wants to sell student's tickets to non students. People like me who live 600 miles from Durham don't even try to go to a game because I won't be able to get a ticket. Maybe it's time to seriously think of building a new field house that can accommodate the demand for tickets. I know that Coach K is reverential about the Indoor Stadium, but the truth is that Duke BB has outgrown the 1930's stadium.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

They have all game to be heard! It's just the band and students usually after 1 or 2 announcements each timeout. Again, all the dead space talk was about pregame. Be heard in-game, Crazies. That's when it matters.

Even the BAND does NOT have to play to fill every space. The Crazies can't out shout the band. And here's a scenario that's ALL TOO frequent: It's a close game. The crowd is going nuts. There's a timeout. Guess what. The excitement and momentum fall to the floor, because everybody has to stop in their tracks to listen to the announcer make some irrelevant announcement. Everything goes BLAH. Talk about "dead space"! It's very hard to rebuild the enthusiasm after that killer. I'm hoping the Crazies sooner or later resort to impoliteness and just drown him out completely. Nothing takes the air out of Cameron like those dang announcements. And that seems to be the only time left when they would
even have a chance
Love, Ima

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I've read in this thread about a lot of different groups who can't get into the Indoor Stadium or can only get in with a wait of several hours. Students feel they have more productive things to do than stand in line for hours. The athletic dept wants to sell student's tickets to non students. People like me who live 600 miles from Durham don't even try to go to a game because I won't be able to get a ticket. Maybe it's time to seriously think of building a new field house that can accommodate the demand for tickets. I know that Coach K is reverential about the Indoor Stadium, but the truth is that Duke BB has outgrown the 1930's stadium.

You mean a facility like the Dean Dome?

[Chris Randolph]

Could someone, in a brief/to the point way, summarize for me the problem the Cameron Crazies are having compared to other years? Why Coach K is having to ask the Crazies to "respond?" Respond to what? I'm not quite sure I understand why they are not as enthusiastic or why there are not as many students at games. Thanks.

[Duvall]

Could someone, in a brief/to the point way, summarize for me the problem the Cameron Crazies are having compared to other years?

The last twenty or so years of following Duke has convinced me that the answer to your question is that no, no one can briefly summarize that.

[AZLA]

Okay, no more @%$* excuses! A flashy scoreboard. Loud music between timeouts. Standing in line. Not standing in line. Cheer sheets. No cheer sheets. Going to bathroom. Not going to the bathroom. For crying out loud, enough. All that matters is what happens when the whistle blows and for 40 minutes on the hardwood. Duke the best home court tradition in all of NCAA sports. That comes 50 percent from the team. And the other 50 percent comes from home court fans. Coach K has always gone the extra mile, more so than any other coach I can think of to engage and speak to the students; welcome walk ons; hold open practices, address fans in the cold at 'o dark thirty in the morning getting off the bus after a loss; buy students pizzas camping in Kville; keeping the university glued together with a cool head during times of adversity. Coach K instigated many of these traditions that coaches do nowadays and it's because he truly believes and embraces the concept of the 6th Man. Dust off the lame excuses, show some pride, pack the stands, and remember that you wear the same letters on your chest as the players on the floor and cheer your hearts out.

[Matches]

With the advent of nice large HD TVs, the home watching experience is probably better from a "can I see the actual basketball playing?" perspective than watching it in person if your view is blocked.

Yes. This isn't just a Duke thing - it's a sports thing in general. The experience of watching at home has improved, while the experience of being there has, at best, remained constant. I live in Charlotte but haven't been to a Panthers game in years, because I'd rather watch it on TV. If that makes me less of a fan, so be it - but can we knock it off with the "you don't belong at the school if this is your opinion" stuff?

On the other hand - the "avoid listening to Elmore" argument is a compelling one, too. :)

[johnb]

Just to add: I watched a few minutes of the Georgia Tech/Miami game recently, and if you think there's a problem in Cameron, check out a Tech home game. Despite >13,000 undergrads and 20,000 students overall, MOST of the seats were empty, including near the court. It looked like an opening round NCAA game in which none of the teams were from that region of the country.

I'm seeing 2 specific problems here: people shorter than 5'6" can't watch the game because everyone stands, and casual fans may get or feel locked out because they are unwilling to sleep in a tent throughout the winter. These seem remediable.

[Bluedog]

Just to add: I watched a few minutes of the Georgia Tech/Miami game recently, and if you think there's a problem in Cameron, check out a Tech home game. Despite >13,000 undergrads and 20,000 students overall, MOST of the seats were empty, including near the court. It looked like an opening round NCAA game in which none of the teams were from that region of the country.

I'm seeing 2 specific problems here: people shorter than 5'6" can't watch the game because everyone stands, and casual fans may get or feel locked out because they are unwilling to sleep in a tent throughout the winter. These seem remediable.

I agree that despite Cameron's shortcomings, the students are still a lot better than at other schools. But there's always room for improvement and the Duke team is a lot better than at other schools too. ;)

I don't see how the fact that many students' views are blocked can be remedied unless you suggest the entire student section sit, which will not and should not happen since that will bring the intensity way down. Getting the word out about actual wait times to the casual fan would possibly improve the perception of the difficulty of getting into games, though. So, I agree that that is remediable.

[duke1113]

Sponsors that help pay the bills have announcements at those timeouts. You want to pay that much money and request silence from the PA, I think that could be arranged with the Athletic Dept. This is EVERYWHERE in the country that has sponsor PA reads. Enough of the excuses, wow. Just cheer loud.


Even the BAND does NOT have to play to fill every space. The Crazies can't out shout the band. And here's a scenario that's ALL TOO frequent: It's a close game. The crowd is going nuts. There's a timeout. Guess what. The excitement and momentum fall to the floor, because everybody has to stop in their tracks to listen to the announcer make some irrelevant announcement. Everything goes BLAH. Talk about "dead space"! It's very hard to rebuild the enthusiasm after that killer. I'm hoping the Crazies sooner or later resort to impoliteness and just drown him out completely. Nothing takes the air out of Cameron like those dang announcements. And that seems to be the only time left when they would
even have a chance
Love, Ima

[DukeWarhead]

I've read in this thread about a lot of different groups who can't get into the Indoor Stadium or can only get in with a wait of several hours. Students feel they have more productive things to do than stand in line for hours. The athletic dept wants to sell student's tickets to non students. People like me who live 600 miles from Durham don't even try to go to a game because I won't be able to get a ticket. Maybe it's time to seriously think of building a new field house that can accommodate the demand for tickets. I know that Coach K is reverential about the Indoor Stadium, but the truth is that Duke BB has outgrown the 1930's stadium.

Absolutely not.
You lose Cameron, you lose a large part of the Duke mystique. Ands it's not worth giving up. Not for ticket demand, comfort, etc. Nope.

[blazindw]

Sponsors that help pay the bills have announcements at those timeouts. You want to pay that much money and request silence from the PA, I think that could be arranged with the Athletic Dept. This is EVERYWHERE in the country that has sponsor PA reads. Enough of the excuses, wow. Just cheer loud.

We've had announcements at every TV timeout in college sports as long as I can remember (not just Duke, but everywhere). Solution: we just cheer through it. Hex the opposing team's huddle. Get a creative cheer going to help pick up a Duke player that appears to be struggling. Salute a player for some excellent hustle or a great sequence of plays. If one of our boys gets called for a foul that clearly wasn't, start chanting "We got your back, S. Dot, we got your back! (clap clap)" or "We got your back, Coach K, we got your back" or whoever. If Austin's having a tough shooting day and needs a pick-me-up, start chanting "Here we go, Austin, here we go." There are plenty of things you can chant during a timeout, announcements or no announcements. Just do it slow and loud and enunciate so people can pick up the chant inside and people at home can hear you. I work the watch parties in DC and people want to be just as raucous as they were in Cameron. We can do some of the chants along with you if we know what you're saying!

[killerleft]

The day that students are not able to get into a home game becomes the day that the team becomes just a team from Durham and not representing the university. Coach K himself has said how fortunate that Duke's improvement coincided with the advent of ESPN. Now, is it becoming a brand under ESPN? Is the need for stands full of people - even 40+ jerks in undershirts or elementary school age children - just for TV? Everyone knows when those people are shown that they are not Duke students.

Duke students have paid for the tickets in their student activities fee. The university/athletic department should not be allowed to sell those tickets twice. After all, this should be a student choice whether to attend or not. It reflects badly on the university to coerce them.

Wha...? We've already established that the students aren't filling the seats for most games. We've already established that the pattern is predictable. You just like to see empty seats, or what? Sorry for the snort I made when I read your post, but the reasoning sounds pretty lame.

[Zeke]

Wha...? We've already established that the students aren't filling the seats for most games. We've already established that the pattern is predictable. You just like to see empty seats, or what? Sorry for the snort I made when I read your post, but the reasoning sounds pretty lame.

If you read the beginning of this thread you will see why there are empty seats. Students don't want to wait for hours to get in, grad students can't get in, general admissions don't show up because they don't think they can get tickets. The only people that can get in are heditary ticket holders, Iron Dukes + several thousand dollars who buy season tickets, students who live in tents to get in line or show up 2-4 hours early (depending on the game), or "special guests" of the athletic dept.
I've never been to the Dean Smith facility at UNC but I do know that in the 1950's the Indoor Stadium was marginal even then. It's time. Every major program has a better facility than Duke. Everything else at Duke has been replaced or updated in the past 50 years and it's time for the Indoor Stadium to be. If you want to keep it, use it as a museum.

[fh84]

If you read the beginning of this thread you will see why there are empty seats. Students don't want to wait for hours to get in, grad students can't get in, general admissions don't show up because they don't think they can get tickets. The only people that can get in are heditary ticket holders, Iron Dukes + several thousand dollars who buy season tickets, students who live in tents to get in line or show up 2-4 hours early (depending on the game), or "special guests" of the athletic dept.
I've never been to the Dean Smith facility at UNC but I do know that in the 1950's the Indoor Stadium was marginal even then. It's time. Every major program has a better facility than Duke. Everything else at Duke has been replaced or updated in the past 50 years and it's time for the Indoor Stadium to be. If you want to keep it, use it as a museum.

As has been said, for a lot of the home game students do NOT have to be in line for 2-4 hrs and can actually walk. Similarly, for most games even graduate students without tickets are able to get in through the walk up line (with some waiting). And about building a new stadium, here is what Dr. Coleman, chairman of the faculty athletics council at Duke had to say in a recent NYT article about college athletics:
"Despite Duke’s ascent to basketball royalty, Cameron Indoor Stadium — built in 1940, renovated in the 1980s and at 9,300 seats one of the smallest venues for a big-time program — still gives thousands of the best seats to students. At many large programs, courtside seats and luxury boxes go to boosters. But “outsiders with money,” Dr. Coleman said, can make demands and change the way the team fits in with a university. “We could easily double the size of our basketball stadium and sell it out,” he said. “That will never happen. If it does, you will know Duke has gone over to the dark side.” "
We should be proud that we are still playing in Cameron. I always love when my Carolina friends complain about how the Dean Dome is half empty for many games and how the noise travels badly because the arena is so big.

[throatybeard]

I'm sorry, but there's a general lack of perspective in a lot of these Jeremiads. Organic Chemistry is really hard. I knew people who would take an underload the semester they started it. (I think it's two semesters, or it was). This idea that college is a time to get really drunk and celebrate one's freedom and live in a residential orgy of young people in a residential compund is a social construction limited mostly to this country and maybe Canada. The idea that MBB and FB should be massive businesses on television and have anything to do with higher education is a social construction limited to the USA alone. I love sports, but I can't tell you how happy I am that we're a DII school where I teach. It's wonderful not to have two sports taking over the entire culture.

If I had an orgo midterm I'd be soiling my pants, not watching basketball. Heck, if I had one of the midterm tests I give kids in IntroLing, Baby Syntax, or History of English at UMSL, I wouldn't be watching basketball either. The graduate seminar I teach was on Wednesday nights in 2010. I pulled up the ESPN3 broadcast on the stick so I could glance at the score four or five times during the game without disrupting class. The world did not end. It's just sports.

As Duke becomes more diverse and you get more foreign students--who come from cultures where higher education has not been held hostage by semi-professional sports--you're going to have more students to whom the imperative to fill every Duke vs Colorado State game is not obvious.

I don't think there's any responsibility on the part of the current students to show up. I love Mike Krzyzewski. But there is no document handed down from Moses or GC Buckheit or Eddie Cameron that says one extracurricular activity (watching one sex of one sport) should trump absolutely everything else or should rise to the top of everyone else's time management calculus. I'd personally like to siphon off about 20% of the size of the Cameron Ugrad crowd every time there's a Duke Artists Series concert at Page or a Duke Chamber Series concert at Reynolds. But I know that won't happen. Just because you were totally into basketball in 1964 or 1974 or 1984 or 1994 doesn't mean some guy from Seoul or Dallas has some sort of responsibility to fill Cameron in 2012. This is an institution of Higher Ed, not a sports franchise.

Mind you, I was ululating about students in Cameron in 2000. When I was 23. I'm over it, but there's sort of this Livyan view of history. Everything is decline from a golden period. The problem with the view is that there's no internal logic in thinking everything went to pot just right now at all moments. And I've heard this view expressed most seasons since the internet went live.


I will comment on is what many perceive is the lack of coordination and creativity among the current Crazies. I think a lot of the coordination problems started when the undergrads lost these non-TV seats, complete with the buffer zone. It's incredibly difficult to hear a chant being started in Cameron over the din. When I was there, most cheers either started from the middle of the TV side or from the Phalanx (Mullet, Throaty, Viking Guy and Baldy) in the grad section. For those who couldn't see those people (and there were plenty of angles in the TV side where you couldn't), people would look to the non-TV side, who could clearly see and hear the chant that was being started, and pick up the chant. That way, people are still focused on the court instead of turning their heads away from the action to pick up what's going on. Not to mention, with the non-TV side, we would have hundreds of students yelling right on top of the opposing team's huddle. I can't tell you how many teams would have to move their huddle out onto the court to get away from the noise, taking them out of their routine and keeping them rattled the whole game.

There's also some coordination issues between the u-grads and the grad students on both ends. It's simply corrected by better communication between the undergrads and the grad students in those sections before the games. As HLM, I would go over to talk to the Phalanx every single game...mostly just to say hey, but at that time we would coordinate different cheers. If they had come up with a cheer to do or dirt on an opposing team's player, I could relay it to the people in the middle of the undergrads and tell them to look out for it. I also chatted with some band leaders, the cheerleaders and even the Dancing Devils before games when a cheer required their assistance. Everyone was on the same page, and it showed in how loud we were and how clear the chants could be heard, on TV and in person...we were in unison. That's a very easy thing to do, and whenever a cheer was to be started, everyone downstairs knew who to look to in order to start the chant. They started it slow and enunciated and it took off from there.

Great post in general, DW. Bold above. Even back then, which is now a supposed Golden Age (during which I was pining for the Golden age of 1998 and others on this board were pining for Golden Ages in 1992, 1986, 1978, etc), I felt we had real co-ordination problems and a syndrome I call "Undergrad Acceleration Disease." For as long as I can remember, the center court Ugrads have taken a cheer and accelerated it until it's totally unintelligible. Anyone remember the Horvath/DePaul game? That's when Our House started. It was slow, deep and ominous, and, here's the key, three syllables with a syllabic /r/, "Ou-r House." Pretty shortly after the cheer was adopted as canonical, it became a light-speed bark, "arhauarhauarhau." Which is unintelligible on TV. This is also why I parody "Let's Go Duke" as "eouu eouu." That was a problem even my frosh year in 1994-95.

That's why Viking, Mullet, Baldy, Britt, Drew Brown, Will Tyson, me, and BigTallBackwardsHatGuy's crew (in no particular order) tried to coordinate things more with the center court Ugrads. We used dry erase boards for new ideas on the fly. We had success at times, I guess, but I think that was an ephemeral, personal synergy with us, Wine, Merrill Roller, Pasha Majdi, and their crews.

All that said, I don't much care if the current people "do things wrong" from my perspective. I'd love it if "boink-boink-pass" were executed with the precision of Handel, but it's still just 20 year olds yelling at a basketball game. You cannot force the millennials to share your values. They will create their own.

[weezie]

Man, you're scaring me! I'm starting to wonder if I actually went to Duke! Maybe it was just a dream.
Is it any fun at all to go to college anymore?
I feel bad for the youngsters. I think it all has to do with the closing of the Dope Shop...those root beer milkshakes and Frosted Flake midnight treats were far more special than I ever could have realized at the time.
:( You're bumming me out!

[PumpkinFunk]

We've had announcements at every TV timeout in college sports as long as I can remember (not just Duke, but everywhere). Solution: we just cheer through it. Hex the opposing team's huddle. Get a creative cheer going to help pick up a Duke player that appears to be struggling. Salute a player for some excellent hustle or a great sequence of plays. If one of our boys gets called for a foul that clearly wasn't, start chanting "We got your back, S. Dot, we got your back! (clap clap)" or "We got your back, Coach K, we got your back" or whoever. If Austin's having a tough shooting day and needs a pick-me-up, start chanting "Here we go, Austin, here we go." There are plenty of things you can chant during a timeout, announcements or no announcements. Just do it slow and loud and enunciate so people can pick up the chant inside and people at home can hear you. I work the watch parties in DC and people want to be just as raucous as they were in Cameron. We can do some of the chants along with you if we know what you're saying!

This is a great post. Admittedly, I was in the band the last 4 years, but before we played, we (and the adjacent grad students) tended to try and keep the cheering going when things were crazy. And during a 20-second time out, it should be easy, but it usually wasn't. The biggest thing is that the cheers need to be done at a reasonable tempo. I'm at those DC watch parties and I can't make out anything being said by the Crazies. Even "Let's go Duke!" is hard to understand if you're not staring at the hand motions of the Crazies. I would love to be able to hear the cheers. (I hate to compare to the NBA, but given that I was at the Wizards-Bobcats game last night, this is still fresh in my mind: the canned cheer stuff they play over the PAs at every single NBA game are basically the right speed to do a cheer. It's the one thing the Crazies could really use at times - a constant, not-too-fast tempo so the cheers are intelligible. Without the canned crap of the NBA, of course)

EDIT:

Also, if any undergrads need a way to induce their friends to show up on Saturday, just warn them that if they stay home to watch, they have to suffer a game commentated by Dick Vitale and Brett Musberger. That's not something should voluntarily do to themselves when they have the option to watch in Cameron.

[Verga3]

Inspiration can come unexpectedly and from anywhere. Taylor University (NAIA) may trump our Cameron Crazies. Maybe some ideas? This may have been posted before, but well worth viewing. We haven't cornered the market on ingenuity and school spirit. Pretty cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbnZiPI6W2I

[hurleyfor3]

...and once again we arrive at the conclusion that the best time to be at Duke was the late 80s/early 90s. During every other time either the basketball wasn't as good, or the Crazies weren't as good, or there wasn't enough alcohol on campus, or there was too much alcohol on campus, or Duke wasn't as strong academically, or was too strong academically, or too many people hated us, or most likely a combination of these.

Love,

hurleyfor3
Class of... well, I'll let you guess.

[throatybeard]

...and once again we arrive at the conclusion that the best time to be at Duke was the late 80s/early 90s. During every other time either the basketball wasn't as good, or the Crazies weren't as good, or there wasn't enough alcohol on campus, or there was too much alcohol on campus, or Duke wasn't as strong academically, or was too strong academically, or too many people hated us, or most likely a combination of these.

Love,

hurleyfor3
Class of... well, I'll let you guess.

And Brian Davis served the beer.

(Christian carded people at the door and stomped on their sternum if they didn't have valid 21+ ID). :p

[hurleyfor3]

And Brian Davis served the beer.

If you were making the rounds of the Friday night parties on Central, he just might have.

Housing policy at the time worked thusly:

Underage students serving unlimited quantities alcohol to other underage students at an open party = OK.

Having a cat in your dorm room = Immediate, permanent revocation of your housing license. No exemption for being national player of the year on a #1-ranked basketball team.

[Channing]

Inspiration can come unexpectedly and from anywhere. Taylor University (NAIA) may trump our Cameron Crazies. Maybe some ideas? This may have been posted before, but well worth viewing. We haven't cornered the market on ingenuity and school spirit. Pretty cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbnZiPI6W2I

Utah State is also pretty good ...
Pregame...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44YUnOoye58
end of game...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpzavb7PQk

I don't think the Crazies should copy other schools, but there are lots of ways to get behind the team, and lots of creative ways to do it.

[Reilly]

... And here's a scenario that's ALL TOO frequent: It's a close game. The crowd is going nuts. There's a timeout. Guess what. The excitement and momentum fall to the floor ....

Oh my. This is disconcerting.

The *very best* times in Cameron that I recall are when the opposing coach would call a timeout to try to stop a Duke run.

And the crowd would get LOUDER during the timeout than they were immediately before, and then louder again when play resumed.

As if to say to the other team, "you don't decide momentum in Cameron, you fools. We do."

[callmecrazy]

I hope the students know how lucky they are to have the opportunity to go to these games. I have been to one game in Cameron and I watch every other game on television. It would me the world to me to be able to go that building and watch every home game.
I am very sincere about this. My daughter’s name is Cameron and I assure that is not by coincidence!

[subzero02]

I hope the students know how lucky they are to have the opportunity to go to these games. I have been to one game in Cameron and I watch every other game on television. It would me the world to me to be able to go that building and watch every home game.
I am very sincere about this. My daughter’s name is Cameron and I assure that is not by coincidence!

My dog's name is Cameron. Although she doesn't share my passion for Duke basketball; she does share my passion for bacon.

[Greg_Newton]

And here's a scenario that's ALL TOO frequent: It's a close game. The crowd is going nuts. There's a timeout. Guess what. The excitement and momentum fall to the floor, because everybody has to stop in their tracks to listen to the announcer make some irrelevant announcement

Hey, it's important that folks know about Kevin White's radio show! :p

Another strange thing is how, in the middle of a Duke run, someone will make a huge dunk, three, etc., and the crowd will explode, even the upper decks standing up. But then, almost immediately, all that great, raw emotion is channeled down to a dull "ohhhhhh" as the other team inbounds the ball.

Just keep screaming, keep the energy flowing!

[NM Duke Fan]

Same chants and silly sound effects. Same songs. Same towel guy. Same. Same. Same.

No wonder Duke can't get students to go to the game anymore.

That's my theory, anyway, and it's a pretty good one. It's nothing I've ever wanted to write -- Hey, did you know Cameron Indoor gets boring after awhile? -- but it seems relevant this week, after Duke's student newspaper broke the news that Duke students don't go to games anymore.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/17018067/fabled-cameron-crazies-succumbing-to-cameron-monotony-at-duke

[Wander]

I actually like Doyel, but the obvious flaw in his argument is that students aren't (usually!) undergraduates for 20 years.

[SilkyJ]

I actually like Doyel, but the obvious flaw in his argument is that students aren't (usually!) undergraduates for 20 years.

Um, exactly. Students 6-10 years ago went through the same alleged monotony, but still packed it every year. What a dumb argument.

[Duvall]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/17018067/fabled-cameron-crazies-succumbing-to-cameron-monotony-at-duke

Well, if you're looking for an expert on tired and tedious schtick, Doyel *would* be the right person to ask.

[Devilsfan]

My carolina fans refer to this as the "Rivers effect". I think this is unfair but I am searching for a true reason why this year is different from all other years? Why do they stand in a semi-reclining position this year where in all other years they stand tall and erect? There are two other questions but my recent onset of early dimensia prevents me from recalling them.

[mkline09]

I don't want to beat a dead horse on this topic. It has been covered pretty well by just about everyone but I felt compelled to share a piece my brother, a 1990 Duke graduate wrote for my blog.

For those of you not familiar with me I started my own Duke Blog covering Duke Football and Basketball just over a year ago. I am not a Duke grad but seeing as I was 7 years old when my brother started at Duke I grew up a Duke fan and am still to this day an intense Duke fan. I wanted to write something on the state of Cameron for a while, but felt somewhat inadequate as I am not a grad, I don't have the history that a Duke student has. I have seen plenty of games in Cameron and was even lucky enough to sit in the student section for Mike Krzyzewski's 600 win during a Christmas break when the students were gone. But I felt that my brother who was there during the beginning of the Krzyzewski era could better convey what Cameron was all about to him and what he sees now.

I'm not big on self promotion here preferring to let people discover my blog on their own and if they enjoy it come back and if not oh well. But I wanted to share this piece on this topic with everyone because I thought it was pretty darn good. So whether you come back or not I hope you enjoy this read.

Still Crazy? (http://dukesportsblog.com/2012/01/29/still-crazy-a-duke-grad-remembers-cameron-the-way-it-was-.aspx)

[Verga3]

I don't want to beat a dead horse on this topic. It has been covered pretty well by just about everyone but I felt compelled to share a piece my brother, a 1990 Duke graduate wrote for my blog.

For those of you not familiar with me I started my own Duke Blog covering Duke Football and Basketball just over a year ago. I am not a Duke grad but seeing as I was 7 years old when my brother started at Duke I grew up a Duke fan and am still to this day an intense Duke fan. I wanted to write something on the state of Cameron for a while, but felt somewhat inadequate as I am not a grad, I don't have the history that a Duke student has. I have seen plenty of games in Cameron and was even lucky enough to sit in the student section for Mike Krzyzewski's 600 win during a Christmas break when the students were gone. But I felt that my brother who was there during the beginning of the Krzyzewski era could better convey what Cameron was all about to him and what he sees now.

I'm not big on self promotion here preferring to let people discover my blog on their own and if they enjoy it come back and if not oh well. But I wanted to share this piece on this topic with everyone because I thought it was pretty darn good. So whether you come back or not I hope you enjoy this read.

Still Crazy? (http://dukesportsblog.com/2012/01/29/still-crazy-a-duke-grad-remembers-cameron-the-way-it-was-.aspx)

This is maybe the best thing I have ever read...Wow. Thank you for sharing this, mkline09. I could not agree or support you more....and I'm quite certain that I am not alone. GO DUKE!!!

[devil84]

There were a number of significant improvements at the yesterday's St. John's game!

Thank you, administration, for turning down the PA/music volume to levels that are loud enough to be effective, but not ear-splittingly painful. The bass was not distorted, either -- the sound clarity and appropriate volume levels made this game a much more enjoyable experience.

And thank you, Crazies, for packing the stands at tipoff. Thank you for keeping the many "airball" chants at a reasonable tempo!

We spend a lot of time discussing what is "wrong" with Cameron and how things aren't as good as they used to be. I'd like to make sure that these improvements are noted and praised. While there's still room for improvement (isn't there always?!), positive reinforcement will help keep those improvements coming.

On a slightly different note, I was watching the end of Coach K's TV show today. He noted that in the past, students came to Cameron to participate in the game. This year it feels like they come to watch the game. He'd like more participation, because this team needs it. He wasn't calling out the students at all. He was asking them to be a part of the team. That is the difference in Cameron that I couldn't put my finger on. It's a subtle shift from participating in the game to watching it.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens in Cameron now that Coach K has made that observation. I'm looking forward to it.

[dukestheheat]

Some of the very best days of my life were spent goofing off in Cameron as a Crazie. We came up with, and indeed perpetuated, many of the antics currently in place. But, I think criticism of today's Crazies should cease.

Who says they need to do and be what we were then? That's not possible for anyone. To tell the group now to pony up and increase their level of creativity puts a lot of pressure on a group of people that'd, probably, like to enjoy the game without the added pressure to measure up to a mythical, totally UNobtainable standard! It's one thing to encourage game attendance and exuberance, but it's just wrong to compare current Crazies with those of days gone by.

Keep in mind I remember the BOG'ers, Big Macs, twinkies and tennis balls........but that was then!

Let the current Crazies set the new norm! It's their battle now. Remember that Duke will always be Duke.

Dukestheheat (and no I'm not going to run for office don't even think about it)

[Devilsfan]

Read the article on the front page and it offers a series of excuses for our current Crazies being more like the "whine and cheese" crowd than the Crazies we all grew to love and admire and copy around the college basketball world. I say if they got in Duke (which is a lot more difficult than it was for the "whenwes") they should be much more daring and creative. The students do not need to be under the influence to attend, cheer wildly and be creative. I want to see the student section packed again and setting the standard for supporting the fellow basketball players. Maybe it's the Crazies as well that needs to develop leadership like the Crazies of old had, just my opinion.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Excellent comments by Julio and by mkline. Of course, it's nothing new
http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf
see 11.e.

Coach K said last week that Cameron this year was "different". The Crazies are different. I heard it first hand, directly from his mouth, so don't ask me for a link. But there were 150 other people who also heard him say this, some of whom visit this board. And we've all seen his quote that was on the front page of the DBR a few days ago.

If I had solutions I'd offer them, but I don't. All I can do is my part upstairs as a Cameron Crustie! :cool:

[Reilly]

Another (smaller, I guess) factor: back in the day, the conference was smaller, and there was home-and-home with everyone. It allowed hatred and rivalry to grow. Think how stoked the Virginia crowd will be later this year when we have to go to C'ville, after the fight that UVa gave us down here ... oh, wait, we don't play them twice in the regular season this year. Didn't Bill Brill skip the ACC tournament the first year of expansion? I remember lining up at the box office at the ACC Tourney and every school's fans were yelling at the others' -- it was wild and it was wonderful. People who've been to the tourney recently say the feel has changed a lot since back in the day -- adding even more teams from further away won't help matters. But, football was able to get a conditional invite for a 9th ACC team to the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl, so all in all expansion's been a real plus, right?

[dolver]

'06 grad here - I may be over-dramatizing this point a bit, but I think this problem is even bigger and should demand a very high level of attention from the institution from the top.

This goes beyond just the tradition of basketball at Duke (and that is important enough in itself), but all the way to the core identity of the school.

If we aren't the academically inclined kids who like sports anymore - if we are saying we are only concerned with studying and higher learning - if we are no longer the school that has the ultimate double threat of intelligence and personality - then what are we? A poor man's Ivy League school?

I've spoken with people that have worked at Dartmouth admissions and have said that in the past, they lost kids to Duke all the time. I'm not so sure that will continue to happen if we continue this identity shift. What incentive would a kid have to choose Duke? Geography is the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Where do we really BEAT the other top schools if this were to hypothetically continue until basketball (or, more importantly to my point, the school spirit that comes from our love of our sports teams and gives everyone on campus a commonality), is no longer important?

Just a thought and I realize that I am not providing solutions, but I do hope that Duke, as a university, realizes that they need to look at this issue.

[Duvall]

'06 grad here - I may be over-dramatizing this point a bit, but I think this problem is even bigger and should demand a very high level of attention from the institution from the top.

This goes beyond just the tradition of basketball at Duke (and that is important enough in itself), but all the way to the core identity of the school.

If we aren't the academically inclined kids who like sports anymore - if we are saying we are only concerned with studying and higher learning - if we are no longer the school that has the ultimate double threat of intelligence and personality - then what are we? A poor man's Ivy League school?

Well, as long as we don't over-dramatize the point.

Since when did liking sports become the only way to show personality?

[dolver]

Since when did liking sports become the only way to show personality?

Don't believe I said, or even implied that it was the only way. Just a way. And, more importantly, one of our biggest/most public ways. And I would focus on the school spirit/sense of community that comes from the commonality of liking sports part rather than just the liking sports part. I realize that it is easy to take my comments out of context and they sound silly, but I do believe that the point remains the same that we lose a big differentiating factor if we lose this identity.

[taiw93]

Duke freshman here. I've been a Duke basketball fan for life, and I too have noticed that Cameron recently has not been as crazy recently as it was even a few seasons ago. Here's my 2 cents:
1. I think I speak for a lot of current basketball-obsessed students when I say that I genuinely appreciate the encouragement, suggestions, and desire for improvement that a number of alumni have been offering. However, the condescending criticism from others (and this is a VERY small minority) doesn't help the cause.

2. Duke is a very different place than it used to be. The student body does seem to be more academically-oriented than ever before, and this seems to have an effect on the general atmosphere of the school. The academic pressure is as high as ever, students are more involved than ever before, and they therefore focus their time and attention differently. In fact, I believe that men's basketball was very recently passed as the most mentioned topic on the "Why Duke?" admissions essay by the Duke Engage program (which is, in my opinion, a good thing as long as it doesn't imply that bball was mentioned less than before:) ). However, Duke is still a basketball school as well. People still talk basketball all the time, get geeked for big games, and giggle like little girls when they a player acknowledges them on a C1. And I see no reason that rising in the US News Rankings should correlate with a decline in the AP Rankings. We just need to make sure to spread the spirit - to make sure that EVERYONE knows, whether they plan on attending or not, the date and time of Duke's next home game. I highly doubt that any fewer students are obsessed with Duke Basketball now than ever before, but I do fear that basketball culture is currently having less of an impact on those who do not arrive as basketball fans.
Note: obviously, I was not there in the 1980s, 90s, or even early 2000s, so I do not have any evidence to prove these differences other than admissions stats and my own perception; the majority of comparisons between now and then, including mine, are very subjective.

3. One thing that I have noticed in Cameron recently is that there often seems to be a lack of communication between the Crazies on opposite ends of section 17, the grad students, and the Crazies next to the band behind the other basket. This is not an overly big problem when it comes to basic chants like "Let's Go Duke," but it does make it more difficult for someone to start a more creative (not to mention offensive), spur-of-the-moment cheer - the kind that Cameron has been famous for in the past. If any alums have any suggestions for improving this, advice would be much appreciated.

I'd also like to add that I am by no means an authority on this, and am not even close to a perfect fan: I'm not tenting yet (I deemed it too hard to balance with schoolwork and pledging), and missed two home games due to rush events (though I was not happy about it). I'm not always in the front row center, and I've yet to come up with anything particularly creative to yell at a fat opposing center. But I really love Duke basketball, and I love even more the unity that banding together in Cameron can bring. So, I feel like the best I can do is add my voice to the conversation; I hope that this additional perspective can help people understand the current state of the Crazies, and maybe help those more well-versed in the ways of Cameron than I am improve it.

Edit: Oh, and one more thing. I just read Doyel's column, and I actually do agree with his main point. The very consistent order of events in Cameron - the Devil surfing over the trombone section at the first TV timeout, the Crazy Towel Guy chant at the under-eight in the first half, etc. - was wondrous to me when I first came to Cameron as a fifth grader. And it still was as a high school senior. But coming to almost every game as an undergrad, the order does start to get a little old and overly predictable. After all, it's hard to be spontaneous when everything else feels so... scripted. So, it would be nice if we mixed up the order in Cameron a little bit from game to game. For example, chanting for Crazy Towel guy not always and only at a certain TV timeout, but instead, doing so whenever Cameron grew dead and needed a spark. Just a thought.

[Channing]

Duke freshman here. I've been a Duke basketball fan for life, and I too have noticed that Cameron recently has not been as crazy recently as it was even a few seasons ago. Here's my 2 cents:
1. I think I speak for a lot of current basketball-obsessed students when I say that I genuinely appreciate the encouragement, suggestions, and desire for improvement that a number of alumni have been offering. However, the condescending criticism from others (and this is a VERY small minority) doesn't help the cause.

This is a great post. Addressing a few of your points, and starting with the first, many alum, like myself (although I only speak for myself) took and take a tremendous amount of pride in Cameron's atmosphere. Collectively, we worked hard to make Cameron the toughest place to play in the country. When I see cracks in the armor, I (and I assume others) naturally get upset and defensive. I don't think anyone is trying to be condescending, just expressing disappointment that Cameron has slipped and trying to encourage the current crop of Crazies to put the pedal to the metal. Like K calling out the team as a motivational ploy, consider this a motivational ploy from the Crusties.


2. Duke is a very different place than it used to be. The student body does seem to be more academically-oriented than ever before, and this seems to have an effect on the general atmosphere of the school. The academic pressure is as high as ever, students are more involved than ever before, and they therefore focus their time and attention differently. In fact, I believe that men's basketball was very recently passed as the most mentioned topic on the "Why Duke?" admissions essay by the Duke Engage program (which is, in my opinion, a good thing as long as it doesn't imply that bball was mentioned less than before:) ).

I know you acknowledged that you really have no frame of reference, but I get a little tired of this excuse. At least since I started paying attention to US News rankings in 2000, Duke has been a top 10 school. In fact, I think its highest ranking ever was my freshman year in 2000/2001. Perhaps its possible, but I doubt that the workload has become that much more intense ove the last 10 years. My brother just graduated from Penn 2 years ago or so and his workload was very similar to mine at Duke. I don't even know what "academically tougher" means. There was always a never ending amount of work that could be done at Duke. It was all about time management and priorities. Remember, back in the day, you couldn't take a laptop or IPad out to the line and work. My freshman year there were ethernet jacks in the lamp posts in K-Ville which was thought to be revolutionary.

While Duke may be "academically tougher" - whatever that means, the resources available to do work anywhere are certainly light years beyond where they ever were.


3. One thing that I have noticed in Cameron recently is that there often seems to be a lack of communication between the Crazies on opposite ends of section 17, the grad students, and the Crazies next to the band behind the other basket. This is not an overly big problem when it comes to basic chants like "Let's Go Duke," but it does make it more difficult for someone to start a more creative (not to mention offensive), spur-of-the-moment cheer - the kind that Cameron has been famous for in the past. If any alums have any suggestions for improving this, advice would be much appreciated.

This has always been a problem and was solved by just paying attention when I was there. Grab a few guys around you, start the chant loudly and slowly so others can pick it up, and it will reverberate. One of my favorite cheers from my time at Duke was in the 2003 (I think) Sweet 16 in the Ga Dome against Xavier when we flipped their X-Men chant on its head and started "X Them Out". It was great, spontaneous, and the fact that we started slowly meant we coordinated with Duke fans all over the Ga Dome, not just in the Duke Section.


Edit: Oh, and one more thing. I just read Doyel's column, and I actually do agree with his main point. The very consistent order of events in Cameron - the Devil surfing over the trombone section at the first TV timeout, the Crazy Towel Guy chant at the under-eight in the first half, etc. - was wondrous to me when I first came to Cameron as a fifth grader. And it still was as a high school senior. But coming to almost every game as an undergrad, the order does start to get a little old and overly predictable. After all, it's hard to be spontaneous when everything else feels so... scripted. So, it would be nice if we mixed up the order in Cameron a little bit from game to game. For example, chanting for Crazy Towel guy not always and only at a certain TV timeout, but instead, doing so whenever Cameron grew dead and needed a spark. Just a thought.

Crazy towel guy used to be there as an inspiration when everyone needed to get to that extra decibel level. I'm sorry to hear it has become a scheduled part of the program. Other aspects are part of the game tradition. The variable always has been, and will be, the creativity and fervor of the fans.

I appreciate your post and hope that you don't get discourage by some of the old timers (some older than others) getting worked up about the Crazies. You know the best way to shut us up ... don't you ... :)

[throatybeard]

3. One thing that I have noticed in Cameron recently is that there often seems to be a lack of communication between the Crazies on opposite ends of section 17, the grad students, and the Crazies next to the band behind the other basket. This is not an overly big problem when it comes to basic chants like "Let's Go Duke," but it does make it more difficult for someone to start a more creative (not to mention offensive), spur-of-the-moment cheer - the kind that Cameron has been famous for in the past. If any alums have any suggestions for improving this, advice would be much appreciated.

Three words, Grasshoppa. Dry erase boards.

We got a little criticism online for it not being "spontaneous enough," whatever the heck that means, but in 2002-03 and 2003-04, Phalanx LLC decided on a couple best practices to coordinate with the undergrads. The earlier phase of the Phalanx with Drew Brown and Britt Fisher mostly heckled opposing players (Drew was a master), but later we decided we needed to make a conscious effort to coordinate with the younguns. So around the 2003 season, Viking or Mullet or someone started bringing dry erase boards. I remember discussions in line before games (best as I can through the ethyl alcohol haze), where we decided we needed to do two things.

1) Give the Ugrads about five seconds to start a cheer on a possession. We'd defer initially, but If they didn't do it quick, we'd take the wheel and they'd follow us.

2) Use dry erase boards to communicate an idea for a new cheer to Wine, Majdi, Roller, and other undergrads who I don't remember. If we came up with something on the fly, Viking (I think) would hold the board up. This wasn't all that frequent in terms of, like, percentage of possessions, but we actually got into a nice little rhythm where Halfcourt/Foul Line-17 and South Goal-20 were looking at each other reflexively to see if anything was up.

My first year in gradskool (2000-01), The BigTallBackwardsHatGuy crew also had a good rapport with that area. Abby Dennis, David Weksberg, folks like that.

I think what I'm saying here is that Cameron works best when there are relationships that are stable for two or three years at a time, or at least over the core of a season, spring semester especially. Think about how the BOGgers heckled the opposing bench back in the old days. (Later impossible, what with the buffer zone). Same dudes, same seats. So In 2004, people knew they would see the following people right under the south goal every time: Mullet, Viking, Baldy to camera left working left, Me, Bezanson and Fred to the right, working right. Viking and Mullet have big loud-arse voices that carry like the west wind. If we had ideas for a particular thing, we'd walk over during warmups and say hey to Majdi and Roller and be all like, we've got this idea for a call-response thing. Let's try it after the first TV timeout. We knew those guys. They knew us. At least in the arena.

Coach K has probably written something about communication in a book about fists or something. It's good for what ails ya. Not everybody at the whole school needs to go to every game and use three gallons of paint on their person and know how to get a shooter open at the elbow and follow recruiting. But it helps if the south goal crew and the halfcourt/foul line-17 crew talk to each other. Everybody else will follow them if they're loud, and hopefully slow. If you want to coordinate, figure out who the cats are who tend to be near or to the south side of halfcourt, get in with them, and talk to the people who tend to be under the south goal. Talk talk talk. Talk on D through screens; talk through rush and midterms.

And Vicki Krapohl served the beer.

</old slightly condescending dude reliving the last wisps of his youth eight-nine years ago>

[Lid]

Crazy towel guy used to be there as an inspiration when everyone needed to get to that extra decibel level. I'm sorry to hear it has become a scheduled part of the program.
It seems to me that Cameron is louder now when people are cheering for CTG than at any other moment during the game, which astonishes me. Everyone should imagine they're cheering for CTG, but... wait for it... cheer for the players on the floor instead! Brilliant, right? It just might work.


And Vicki Krapohl served the beer.

Awesome.

[throatybeard]

I've long thought this genuflecting before CTG--no disrespect to Mr Neubauer--is just nuts.

I was around when the CTG meme solidified. It was the 1996 season, particularly the UCLA game where we roughed them up by about 20 after they had roughed us up by 20 or 30 (at Pauley) during the "bad season" in 1995. His seats were originally on the same side of the upper deck as section 17. A season or two later he moved to the other side, which exacerbated this notion that we must all call his name and do the "not worthy" bow before him, as he was on the opposite side. By my senior year (1998), they had the dude signing towels in the Bryan Center.

He's just one guy. Why must this be a programmed bit in the sequence? Waving a towel is fine. MLB institutionalized it this past postseason in October, though folks in Pittsburgh were doing it 32 years ago. Seriously?

When I was in gradskool, there was a programmed response to CTG performed an excruciatingly cute 7yo, 8yo (?) girl with a towel above section 17, and her Dad supporting her dancing on the brass railing, and she wore a little Duke cheerleader dress. She would mimic CTG with her towel. And I thought to myself, well, great, she's cute, but how does this really add to the atmosphere or antagone the opponent? Chica is probably in college now. Ai yai yai.

I guess what I'm saying is, waving a towel isn't genius. Or tradition. It may have become a hollow tradition. The youngsters need to cook up their own traditions. It's on them. Let's see what they do. And Herb is Herb, God love him, but it's just a towel.

[Reilly]

.... I was around when the CTG meme solidified. It was the 1996 season.....

Before he was CTG, he was "Superfan". When I was around in the late 1980s, my friends and I took to calling him "Superfan." We'd be at football games, and Herb would admirably be one of the few up and exhorting, and we, with admiration, called him Superfan. And, he'd always be around at sporting events -- you'd see him everywhere.

Before the football season opener in 1991 at South Carolina, a friend and I were walking across the parking lot/field and came upon Herb, and my friend said to him, "Superfan, we knew we'd see you here."

My friend has long posited that the "Superfan" name denoted strength a la "Superman" and a sort of Reagan-esque "Morning in America" optimism -- where we're all together, and he'll lead us, and we will conquer.

Then, there was a shift to "the other" with the name "Crazy Towel Guy" -- which echoes the "Friends" character "Crazy Naked Guy" -- where we're not all together, but rather we're off to the side, standing by passively and labeling others we see through the window as "crazy."

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Before he was CTG, he was "Superfan". When I was around in the late 1980s, my friends and I took to calling him "Superfan." We'd be at football games, and Herb would admirably be one of the few up and exhorting, and we, with admiration, called him Superfan. And, he'd always be around at sporting events -- you'd see him everywhere.

Before the football season opener in 1991 at South Carolina, a friend and I were walking across the parking lot/field and came upon Herb, and my friend said to him, "Superfan, we knew we'd see you here."

My friend has long posited that the "Superfan" name denoted strength a la "Superman" and a sort of Reagan-esque "Morning in America" optimism -- where we're all together, and he'll lead us, and we will conquer.

Then, there was a shift to "the other" with the name "Crazy Towel Guy" -- which echoes the "Friends" character "Crazy Naked Guy" -- where we're not all together, but rather we're off to the side, standing by passively and labeling others we see through the window as "crazy."
Herb has renounced his title of Superfan, and any reference to him as Duke's biggest fan is, well, just wrong. This past fall he disowned the football team. I posted this in a football thread last fall: after the loss to Richmond, he started selling his tickets in the Card Gym parking lot, and waved them in front of the team as they made the Devil Walk from Towerview Dr., just so every team member, from Coach Cut on down to the last man on the bench, knew what he was doing. He said he's "making a statement". The statement he was making was "I'm CTG, and I'm a butthole." Many on this board, especially those who have tents in Blue Devil Alley, agree with this sentiment. It is my opinion, and that of many others, that he needs to be ignored. I no longer look forward to his standing and waving his towel in Cameron. He's a fraud and an embarrassment. The Crazies need a new icon.

Great posts by the undergrads above and by Throatybeard! As for the white boards, us Crusties appreciate them so we can know what the chants are too. Those sitting by me are constantly asking me "what are they saying?" Sometimes I know, sometimes I don't. And wouldn't twitter be an effective way of communicating suggested chants, in a 2012 sort of way? I've never tweeted, but I would suspect that almost all the grad and undergrads sitting in Cameron do.

I'm going to stay out of the "Duke is tougher now" discussion. Compared to the early/mid 70's, it is WAY tougher to get in and way tougher to get good grades, unless you were pre-med maybe (I wasn't).

[Reilly]

Ozzie, I recall that distressing story from last football season and the tickets, remembering when you posted it then. I didn't mean to make this about any particular fan. Rather, I was trying to echo in a way what many have been saying -- how the Crazies have changed. In my day, Superfan was admired (and so named) b/c he seemed to be a super fan. Now, as Throaty notes, it's a schtick (and as you note, no longer deserving). What struck me was that as the CTG fame grew over the past 15 years, early on my friend was noting (as many others did as well, no doubt) the schtick-iness of it all, and the Crazies role in that. In short, we were better then at cheering and at defense and at naming our heroes -- oh, those kids today ....

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Ozzie, I recall that distressing story from last football season and the tickets, remembering when you posted it then. I didn't mean to make this about any particular fan. Rather, I was trying to echo in a way what many have been saying -- how the Crazies have changed. In my day, Superfan was admired (and so named) b/c he seemed to be a super fan. Now, as Throaty notes, it's a schtick (and as you note, no longer deserving). What struck me was that as the CTG fame grew over the past 15 years, early on my friend was noting (as many others did as well, no doubt) the schtick-iness of it all, and the Crazies role in that. In short, we were better then at cheering and at defense and at naming our heroes -- oh, those kids today ....
I'm all for "revving up" Cameron to greater noise levels and always improving creative cheering by the Crazies. Years ago someone asked me the difference between a college atmosphere and a pro atmosphere. I told him that in pro arenas, fans reacted to great plays and cheered, but in college, specifically Cameron, the crowd (the Crazies) were pro-active and were loud and excited BEFORE the great plays occurred, spurring the players on to greater things. Last Saturday, at the St. John's game, even when we were, um, frittering away the big lead, I tried to start a "Defense" cheer upstairs. It went nowhere of course, and then a few seconds later I heard a small, similar cheer from the Crazies, but it too died out quickly (and quietly) and I was surprised at that. We gave the team little help. Not none, but not like it was a couple of years ago, much less 10 years ago. If I had a solution, I'd offer it.

I won't dump on CTG anymore. He's not worth my time. :cool:

[AZLA]

I know you acknowledged that you really have no frame of reference, but I get a little tired of this excuse. At least since I started paying attention to US News rankings in 2000, Duke has been a top 10 school. In fact, I think its highest ranking ever was my freshman year in 2000/2001. Perhaps its possible, but I doubt that the workload has become that much more intense ove the last 10 years. My brother just graduated from Penn 2 years ago or so and his workload was very similar to mine at Duke. I don't even know what "academically tougher" means. There was always a never ending amount of work that could be done at Duke. It was all about time management and priorities. Remember, back in the day, you couldn't take a laptop or IPad out to the line and work. My freshman year there were ethernet jacks in the lamp posts in K-Ville which was thought to be revolutionary.

While Duke may be "academically tougher" - whatever that means


Duke was as high as I believe #3 in the early nineties FYI if rankings really mean anything. After the first National Championship the campus was seen getting teepeed by President Brodie (no lie) after the win. Parties happened every night, Thursday through Sunday. It pretty much was an open campus when it came to alcohol and just freedom of expression. People did mudslides in the quads and benches made for good bonfires if there was a good win or just because...

It's plain and simple: Duke has always been an academically rigorous institution and always will be. Cameron spirit is waning. And I seriously doubt that most of the time when a game is being played that they're tucked away in the stacks or studying in their rooms. If that was the case, fine, but I call b.s.

[Reilly]

... in pro arenas, fans reacted to great plays and cheered, but in ... Cameron, the crowd (the Crazies) were pro-active and were loud and excited BEFORE the great plays occurred ...

Before, there was a palpable hunger, a sense of bloodlust. Roaring at the other team, letting them know what they were in for ... now, we're happy (and we show it) if our team does well, but we're not hungry.

[Bluedog]

Cameron may be losing some of its intensity, but it's still no pro arena. Have you been to an NBA game lately? The crowd noise is pathetic (except in the playoffs). It's no comparison. Although maybe I'm missing the great NBA arenas. I haven't been to a game in Cameron this year, so I guess I can't say for sure, but based on TV viewing, Cameron sounds pretty good. Obviously, it can improve, but we shouldn't compare the atmosphere to the NBA...I watch the NBA for the amazing abilities of the players, not the quality of the crowd.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Cameron may be losing some of its intensity, but it's still no pro arena. Have you been to an NBA game lately? The crowd noise is pathetic (except in the playoffs). It's no comparison. Although maybe I'm missing the great NBA arenas. I haven't been to a game in Cameron this year, so I guess I can't say for sure, but based on TV viewing, Cameron sounds pretty good. Obviously, it can improve, but we shouldn't compare the atmosphere to the NBA...I watch the NBA for the amazing abilities of the players, not the quality of the crowd.
Cameron and the Crazies have been OK, but not as great as in previous years. Coach K spoke about that publicly in the last couple of weeks, both about waning attendance and noise intensity (my words).

Note that I said "Years ago" when I made the comparison between pro arenas and colleges'. Last pro game I went to was in Washington about 3 years ago, courtesy of _BDBD. Before that, it would have been in MSG to see the Knicks play the Milwaukee Bucks (with Lew Alcindor) over Thanksgiving in Nov. 1970. Yup, 1970, about six months before Alcindor changed his name to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar :cool:

[Verga3]

I don't buy the current negativity. Just a temporary lull. I know for sure that many current and former Crazies never even attended high school/prep school basketball games and by any measure cannot be considered knowledgeable fans. They will learn. What has happened in the past, and I believe will continue far into the future is a learned recognition and appreciation of our tradition. Some newbies just need to be taught...and we have plenty of Crazie mentors in school today. Let's all stay tuned...and let those student leaders continue/create the Crazies of the future, with an eye in the rearview mirror!

[Bluealum]

Duke was as high as I believe #3 in the early nineties FYI if rankings really mean anything. After the first National Championship the campus was seen getting teepeed by President Brodie (no lie) after the win. Parties happened every night, Thursday through Sunday. It pretty much was an open campus when it came to alcohol and just freedom of expression. People did mudslides in the quads and benches made for good bonfires if there was a good win or just because...

It's plain and simple: Duke has always been an academically rigorous institution and always will be. Cameron spirit is waning. And I seriously doubt that most of the time when a game is being played that they're tucked away in the stacks or studying in their rooms. If that was the case, fine, but I call b.s.

I have to chuckle at this. I was a student in the early nineties. I saw the end of the keg's in the quad heydey and the enthusiasm over our first national titles. It was a great time to be a Duke student, we were a top 5 academic institution for the first time and THE basketball power for the first time as well. It's easy to be enthusiastic when you achieve a bunch of firsts and the beer flows freely right?

One note to add to this multi-threaded reflection on the ebb and flow of Cameron Craziness. We too, as I recall, were called out for not holding up to past standards of rabidness at one point in my four years. K is known for calling it as he sees it, and part of being a 6th man, is accepting that a call out is fair and appropriate if it is honest. Reacting to it positively is what we expect from our players and what we should expect from our fans. I hope the students step up again as they have in years past.

On another point that is raised frequently, suggesting that the demographics have changed substantially. I agree with AZLA, we have not moved up in terms of overall rankings by any real measure in the last 20 years. It just has not happened and it's very hard to do once your in the top 5. I work with the alumni committee and interview undergrads so I have the latest info on admissions from Chris G, director of admissions. What has changed, which we tout, is the percentage of kids that get in has dropped significantly over the years....meaning more folks apply to Duke, and it's not even close. We had over 35,000 applicants for next years class this year.

What has changed over the years with this massive influx is our focus on getting a diverse student body. This is a very different emphasis from getting well rounded individual students and an important point that has a bearing on this discussion. When I went to Duke the ideal student was excellent academically, involved in leadership, community, and sports activities, and communicated well. This lead to a student body that was very well rounded but also, to a degree, was fairly homogenous.

That began to shift when Chris G. took over admissions in 1992, when I was at Duke, and has moved a lot since. Today we want a diverse student body collectively. This means a less well rounded piano virtuoso, or a stupendous athlete, or a promising mathematician with less developed social skills would be more likely to get in today, due to depth in one area versus the early nineties and before. This means, collectively, our student body is more diverse and has greater depth of talent in a variety of areas than before. They are more likely to excel in a single field than before. The counterpoint to this is that individually they are less well rounded. This is a tradeoff that the Ivies made prior to Duke, which did set us apart in that era, but does not today. Duke made the decision to move in that direction beginning in 1992 and has been doing so increasingly over a 20 year period. I submit that every approach has pros and cons. A 'pro' is that we are more likely to produce alumni who win awards and renown in a single discipline which embellishes a universities' reputation more than a large collection of high achieving, but less decorated alumni do. This adds to a universities prestige which pays dividends to all of us Alumni. A 'con' is that we have fewer students who are inclined (and I am seriously generalizing, I know we have both extremes now and prior of course) to try to balance academics, social activities, personal interests, and sports fanaticism in the we way we used to under the old model of admissions. The predictable result is that we have fewer shared interests across a very diverse campus (including a passion and impulse to participate as a Crazy), but we are better exposed to a variety of perspectives and interests. Result: Craziness suffers but perspective widens....to the extent that all of these islands of diversity actually choose to interact. The last bit, I have no way to evaluate as I do not participate in the campus culture today. I would be interested to hear current student perspectives on this.

Anyway, kudos to all you Crazies of today who still choose to balance all of your demands and get out and participate as a 6th man in what many have said is one of the premier sporting venues (and experiences) in the world. You make it so and may it always be so!

[proelitedota]

Speaking from experience as a student of the class of 2010, I believe that the introduction of HDTV and Espn360 definitely impacted the attendance rate of games in Cameron. In my opinion, student interest in basketball is still as high or even higher than before due the ease of access to quality digital game time experience, but with the current sedentary culture exacerbate by high speed internet, physically attending "lesser" games in Cameron itself is less and less of an appealing option compared to watching it on a screen.

It sounds pitiful. I know. :(

[cf-62]

Speaking from experience as a student of the class of 2010, I believe that the introduction of HDTV and Espn360 definitely impacted the attendance rate of games in Cameron. In my opinion, student interest in basketball is still as high or even higher than before due the ease of access to quality digital game time experience, but with the current sedentary culture exacerbate by high speed internet, physically attending "lesser" games in Cameron itself is less and less of an appealing option compared to watching it on a screen.

It sounds pitiful. I know. :(

I certainly buy your argument. Unfortunately, it flies in the face of those that claim the students are "more academically inclined, care more about their academic success, etc. " than their predecessors. They're still "wasting time" watching a basketball game.

And lesser games stink - they really do. But maybe we should introduce remedial ACC basketball as an extracurricular class so that students can learn a few things like:

A 14-2 ACC team that has won 12 games in a row isn't a lesser game
Another Big 4 school isn't a lesser game
A Big East School that beat your @#$^% on National TV 12 months ago is not a lesser game

[proelitedota]

I certainly buy your argument. Unfortunately, it flies in the face of those that claim the students are "more academically inclined, care more about their academic success, etc. " than their predecessors. They're still "wasting time" watching a basketball game.

And lesser games stink - they really do. But maybe we should introduce remedial ACC basketball as an extracurricular class so that students can learn a few things like:

A 14-2 ACC team that has won 12 games in a row isn't a lesser game
Another Big 4 school isn't a lesser game
A Big East School that beat your @#$^% on National TV 12 months ago is not a lesser game


Was the attendance for St. John's game bad?

In general, I view low attendance as of a bigger problem than the tameness of the crazies. The dropping attendance might be a trend, while the intensity of Cameron is expected to vary game to game, year to year, team to team.

[cf-62]

Was the attendance for St. John's game bad?

In general, I view low attendance as of a bigger problem than the tameness of the crazies. The dropping attendance might be a trend, while the intensity of Cameron is expected to vary game to game, year to year, team to team.

Iron Dukes have been offered student tickets to UVA, FSU, Wake, and St. Johns.

Of course, that made for pockets of Orange, Maroon, Gold (er, ugly tie-dye), and red in the student section during those games.

I gotta say, the I-D's that are selling these off are just as bad as the students that didn't use them.

[Lid]

Iron Dukes have been offered student tickets to UVA, FSU, Wake, and St. Johns.

Of course, that made for pockets of Orange, Maroon, Gold (er, ugly tie-dye), and red in the student section during those games.

I gotta say, the I-D's that are selling these off are just as bad as the students that didn't use them.
I didn't know they sold tix for St. John's. The edges of the bleachers were still open in that game after all the undergrads came in, so it looked from upstairs like they let extra grad students in to fill it. At least that means undergrads weren't being turned away for non-students.

[duke1113]

Iron Dukes were not offered tickets for St. John's in 17. All students in there, and grads helped to fill in the corners prior to tip off. And again, the issue has never been undergrads being turned away...the issue has been them not showing up, thus the tickets were sold that otherwise would have been empty bleachers.

[cf-62]

Iron Dukes were not offered tickets for St. John's in 17. All students in there, and grads helped to fill in the corners prior to tip off. And again, the issue has never been undergrads being turned away...the issue has been them not showing up, thus the tickets were sold that otherwise would have been empty bleachers.

au contraire mon frere. Maybe not ALLLL Iron Dukes were invited to buy tickets...

[Bluedog]

Iron Dukes were not offered tickets for St. John's in 17. All students in there, and grads helped to fill in the corners prior to tip off. And again, the issue has never been undergrads being turned away...the issue has been them not showing up, thus the tickets were sold that otherwise would have been empty bleachers.

I personally know of students who were told the student section was full when they showed up 15 minutes before tipoff for the FSU game. However, they were given seats in the upper level, so they still got to attend. Obviously, FSU's crowd was (as expected) a lot better than for other games.

[nyr484]

Duke is selling corner bleacher tickets to Iron Dukes for the Miami game on Sunday.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Duke is selling corner bleacher tickets to Iron Dukes for the Miami game on Sunday.

...and I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut, most of them travel from there straight to ebay and on to Florida!
Love, Ima

[Duvall]

...and I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut, most of them travel from there straight to ebay and on to Florida!
Love, Ima

Not many, I'll bet. Miami fans have trouble making it to Coral Gables for basketball games.

[devil84]

Anyway, kudos to all you Crazies of today who still choose to balance all of your demands and get out and participate as a 6th man in what many have said is one of the premier sporting venues (and experiences) in the world. You make it so and may it always be so!

Emphasis mine; it's a term I haven't heard used much recently. While "Cameron Crazies" is nicely alliterative and fairly descriptive of behavior and costumes (in a good way), "Sixth Man" describes their function as a necessary part of the team. Perhaps a call for "more Sixth Men*" in Cameron could be more effective than calling for "more Crazies to show up." Participation in the game is expected of Sixth Men*, whereas Crazies may give the impression that they are an act of their own. (See Coach K's recent Inside Basketball with Coach K (http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?&db_oem_id=4200&id=842748&ATCLID=205373105&ATCLPID=&DB_MENU_ID=&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200) show, starting at about 27:10. He talks about Cameron this year and notes that the crowd this year is watching the game rather than participating in it.)

And I echo Bluealum's kudos.


*The term "men" in these instances is used to mean a "collection of human beings" without regard to gender and definitely includes women.

[throatybeard]

*The term "men" in these instances is used to mean a "collection of human beings" without regard to gender and definitely includes women.

Very forward. Kudos. (In the morphological singular, as in Greek).

[msdukie]

Speaking from experience as a student of the class of 2010, I believe that the introduction of HDTV and Espn360 definitely impacted the attendance rate of games in Cameron. In my opinion, student interest in basketball is still as high or even higher than before due the ease of access to quality digital game time experience, but with the current sedentary culture exacerbate by high speed internet, physically attending "lesser" games in Cameron itself is less and less of an appealing option compared to watching it on a screen.

It sounds pitiful. I know. :(

There is no such thing as a LESSER game. All games feature the Duke University Men's Varsity Basketball Team.

[ricks68]

There is no such thing as a LESSER game. All games feature the Duke University Men's Varsity Basketball Team.

While I agree with this statement, for me to travel from Texas to see a game in Cameron, I want to see an ACC game because there is more on the line, and therefore, the overall intensity just appears to be greater. Another reason is that it costs me and my wife well north of a thousand bucks each time, even when using airline points and our usual hotel discounts. Now, if I was a student again, however, I'd be one of those fighting for center court seats for every game---like I did for every game when I was a student in the mid to late sixties. As far as the studying excuse, I don't buy a lot of it because every time I was fortunate enough to attend a game the past 5 or 6 years I always saw numerous students walking around outside of Cameron pre-game in some kind of athletic gear coming or going into Card with no intention of attending the game---or apparently studying for a while. What's most disappointing to me, however, is the scene during almost every game that is shown on my TV of the outside of Cameron during a break in the action. I think it is a slap in the face to the basketball program to see so many students walking around and not inside attending the game---or did they move Perkins and also construct some new study areas to that part of the campus?

ricks

[anon]

I certainly buy your argument. Unfortunately, it flies in the face of those that claim the students are "more academically inclined, care more about their academic success, etc. " than their predecessors. They're still "wasting time" watching a basketball game.


I disagree. You can get a lot more work done glancing at the basketball game on the TV or your Web browser than you can during the hours you spend in Cameron and in line to get into Cameron.

I happen to know, since I did prioritize Cameron over work. I'm glad I did it, but I probably wouldn't have been able to if I were, say, a pre-med.

[cf-62]

I happen to know, since I did prioritize Cameron over work. I'm glad I did it, but I probably wouldn't have been able to if I were, say, a pre-med.

The only time I would buy that statement would be if it was MCAT study time - that makes a small percentage of the senior class. Since Duke is now the "biggest and best" it's ever been, that still leaves somewhere north of 6000 kids to fill 1200 seats and go Crazy for 3 hours. If you were to remove all foreign students (that's another 1700), you're down to 4300 students for 1200 seats.

But the pre-med workload is no worse than a EE or BME, or any of the 1500 BS candidates. Yes, Orgo is hard. Yes, P-Chem is time consuming (just like Data Communications, Systems Engineering, Advanced Calculus, or Number Theory.

This is just the same credo repeated over and over - "The students care more now about academics. the students are smarter now. The students have more riding on their academia." While they may be smarter than us backwoods hillbilly rednecks that obviously walked the halls in the 80s and 90s, the rest just isn't true.

[Devilsfan]

I know it's Super Sunday but there are a large number of lower level tickets available. I haven't seen this ever and I don't think you can blame it all on Football.

[Zeke]

The only time I would buy that statement would be if it was MCAT study time - that makes a small percentage of the senior class. Since Duke is now the "biggest and best" it's ever been, that still leaves somewhere north of 6000 kids to fill 1200 seats and go Crazy for 3 hours. If you were to remove all foreign students (that's another 1700), you're down to 4300 students for 1200 seats.

But the pre-med workload is no worse than a EE or BME, or any of the 1500 BS candidates. Yes, Orgo is hard. Yes, P-Chem is time consuming (just like Data Communications, Systems Engineering, Advanced Calculus, or Number Theory.

This is just the same credo repeated over and over - "The students care more now about academics. the students are smarter now. The students have more riding on their academia." While they may be smarter than us backwoods hillbilly rednecks that obviously walked the halls in the 80s and 90s, the rest just isn't true.
I wonder if the current economy and the relative paucity of jobs for grads leads to a change in attitude of the students. I recently read where under grads are entering the work force later because more are going to grad schools. They may have more concern over admissions.

[Devilsfan]

This is a poor rationalization IMO. Duke grads if they applied their intelligence to the classroom they are some of the best candidates for jobs in ANY economy. Plus one blogger said remove the foreign students and there is still an abundance of students compared to the seats available. Just look at the make up of the current Crazies. Foreign students are not the problem. It looks like the UN. The problem is with the non foreign students. My suggestion would be for the coaches of other teams (soccer, Baseball etc.) to encourage their players to attend the games. Ten per cent of the student body plays a sport. But this is not in the other head coaches' best interest as it has no bearing on their job security so they probably don't care about BB that much. Also I don't care if the president of the university attends the games. His attendance has no bearing on the student body attending even if he may believe he's setting an example. It's the student attendance that bothers me. If the other HCs attended, their players would most probably attend. We've dropped back into a comfort zone and I for one don't like it.

[Bluedog]

Here's the link to purchase tickets for the Miami game that Devilsfan mentioned above:

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=PERFORMERCATEGORY&SALE_TKT_PERFORMER_ID=67977&SALE_TKT_SALE_CATEGORIES_ID=63824

[JNort]

Here's the link to purchase tickets for the Miami game that Devilsfan mentioned above:

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=PERFORMERCATEGORY&SALE_TKT_PERFORMER_ID=67977&SALE_TKT_SALE_CATEGORIES_ID=63824

I do not understand the "Will call" tickets. How does that work? If I pay the 65 dollars right now do I get my money back if they do not call? How soon will they call? I live 2 and half hours away from Duke.

[sagegrouse]

I do not understand the "Will call" tickets. How does that work? If I pay the 65 dollars right now do I get my money back if they do not call? How soon will they call? I live 2 and half hours away from Duke.

I think you are joking, but -- if not -- I'll bite. It's not "Duke" who will call you; it is "jnort" who will call at the window that reads "Will Call."

sage
'Boy, I'll fall for anything'

[Bluedog]

I do not understand the "Will call" tickets. How does that work? If I pay the 65 dollars right now do I get my money back if they do not call? How soon will they call? I live 2 and half hours away from Duke.

I can't say for sure as I've never done it, but since it says "1st come 1st serve," I'd imagine they let you in until it has reached its capacity. So, as long as you show up quite a bit before tipoff, you should be fine. But hopefully somebody else who has purchased public tickets for section 17 can confirm...

[JNort]

I think you are joking, but -- if not -- I'll bite. It's not "Duke" who will call you; it is "jnort" who will call at the window that reads "Will Call."

sage
'Boy, I'll fall for anything'

Lol no I was not (I feel stupid as heck now). Since it was under shipping method I assumed they call you. Since they ship you the tickets I figured they called you to let you know the ticket is now available.

[Lid]

I can't say for sure as I've never done it, but since it says "1st come 1st serve," I'd imagine they let you in until it has reached its capacity. So, as long as you show up quite a bit before tipoff, you should be fine. But hopefully somebody else who has purchased public tickets for section 17 can confirm...
If you have a ticket, you'll get in. You may end up squished in between two actual rows if you're late, but you'll get in. The fire marshal here doesn't have 9314 fingers and toes. ;)

[JNort]

Ok so do I call down there and pay for the ticket by phone and then get there an hour before tip to pick it up? Or do I pay for it online off of Goduke then call down there and confirm? I have just never done this before sorry...

You know I think I will just call the ticket office. Kinda makes more sense, why did I not think of that sooner. Sheesh I have got some brain farts going on today :o

[throatybeard]

Speaking from experience as a student of the class of 2010, I believe that the introduction of HDTV and Espn360 definitely impacted the attendance rate of games in Cameron. In my opinion, student interest in basketball is still as high or even higher than before due the ease of access to quality digital game time experience, but with the current sedentary culture exacerbate by high speed internet, physically attending "lesser" games in Cameron itself is less and less of an appealing option compared to watching it on a screen.

Further, this is something that is affecting all sports. A summer or two ago, Colin Cowherd did a couple segments on a poll he'd seen. You know how he loves to talk about demographics. They asked NFL fans--this is the NFL, the 1700-pound gorilla, the $9B/year business--where would you most like to watch the game? 82% said at home on my TV, 9% said at a sports bar, and 9% said at the game. If that's where the NFL is at, it's amazing anyone goes to anything else in person. And a lot of that is cost. Two good seats at one NFL game, maybe a little beer and crappy stadium food, and parking (many NFL stadiums aren't within easy reach of public transit), and you add all that up and you're close to what it now costs for a decent-sized plasma. I pay $7/month for a package that has NFL RedZone.

I love college football, but something I learned in my decade-plus of going to Duke and Mississippi State football games is that, unless you have an RV with some sort of satellite setup, if you tailgate and watch your own school's game in person, then you miss all or most of the rest of the football in the rest of the nation. Maybe a bunch of these kids are sports fans and they don't want to miss the 7 East game standing around in Cameron for a couple hours before our 9 East game in order to get a decent space in 17.

The current freshmen, mostly being from well-off families, probably have had high-speed internet more than half their lives. Probably got it around 2001 or 2002? And they were born in 1994? Probably have had internet at home as long as they can remember. They've been staring at screens their whole lives, even more so than us old folks did. This is what Americans do now. Stare at screens.

[rasputin]

Further, this is something that is affecting all sports. A summer or two ago, Colin Cowherd did a couple segments on a poll he'd seen. You know how he loves to talk about demographics. They asked NFL fans--this is the NFL, the 1700-pound gorilla, the $9B/year business--where would you most like to watch the game? 82% said at home on my TV, 9% said at a sports bar, and 9% said at the game. If that's where the NFL is at, it's amazing anyone goes to anything else in person. And a lot of that is cost. Two good seats at one NFL game, maybe a little beer and crappy stadium food, and parking (many NFL stadiums aren't within easy reach of public transit), and you add all that up and you're close to what it now costs for a decent-sized plasma. I pay $7/month for a package that has NFL RedZone.

I love college football, but something I learned in my decade-plus of going to Duke and Mississippi State football games is that, unless you have an RV with some sort of satellite setup, if you tailgate and watch your own school's game in person, then you miss all or most of the rest of the football in the rest of the nation. Maybe a bunch of these kids are sports fans and they don't want to miss the 7 East game standing around in Cameron for a couple hours before our 9 East game in order to get a decent space in 17.

The current freshmen, mostly being from well-off families, probably have had high-speed internet more than half their lives. Probably got it around 2001 or 2002? And they were born in 1994? Probably have had internet at home as long as they can remember. They've been staring at screens their whole lives, even more so that us old folks did. This is what Americans do now. Stare at screens.

Throaty, when did you graduate from curmudgeon status to geezer?:D

[throatybeard]

Throaty, when did you graduate from curmudgeon status to geezer?:D

I put it at about Spring 2008. I think the effort involved in getting us out of Mississippi and up to here and moving house every spring or summer annually from 2004 to 2008, it broke me. I've been treading water ever since. I gained about two stone. If by some miracle I get tenure, it will have been worth it. If I don't, I have no idea where the energy required to start life over in my mid or late 30s will come from. I'll need me some dinosaur stem cells.

At any rate, I understand why the kids stare at screens instead of attending basketball games. The first thing they saw when they issued from their mother's wombs was a PC hooked up to AOL.

[hurleyfor3]

I put it at about Spring 2008. I think the effort involved in getting us out of Mississippi and up to here and moving house every spring or summer annually from 2004 to 2008, it broke me. I've been treading water ever since. I gained about two stone. If by some miracle I get tenure, it will have been worth it. If I don't, I have no idea where the energy required to start life over in my mid or late 30s will come from. I'll need me some dinosaur stem cells.

I was 39 when I moved out here. There are worse ways to spend your life than hiking, climbing, skiing and snowboarding. Especially after bombing your eleventh straight job interview. No screens in federally-protected wilderness.

[throatybeard]

I was 39 when I moved out here. There are worse ways to spend your life than hiking, climbing, skiing and snowboarding. Especially after bombing your eleventh straight job interview. No screens in federally-protected wilderness.

I like Colorado. Maybe my wife can teach German out there and I can mooch off her.

She prefers Appalachia to the Rockies though.

[Starter]

Further, this is something that is affecting all sports. A summer or two ago, Colin Cowherd did a couple segments on a poll he'd seen. You know how he loves to talk about demographics. They asked NFL fans--this is the NFL, the 1700-pound gorilla, the $9B/year business--where would you most like to watch the game? 82% said at home on my TV, 9% said at a sports bar, and 9% said at the game. If that's where the NFL is at, it's amazing anyone goes to anything else in person. And a lot of that is cost. Two good seats at one NFL game, maybe a little beer and crappy stadium food, and parking (many NFL stadiums aren't within easy reach of public transit), and you add all that up and you're close to what it now costs for a decent-sized plasma. I pay $7/month for a package that has NFL RedZone.

I love college football, but something I learned in my decade-plus of going to Duke and Mississippi State football games is that, unless you have an RV with some sort of satellite setup, if you tailgate and watch your own school's game in person, then you miss all or most of the rest of the football in the rest of the nation. Maybe a bunch of these kids are sports fans and they don't want to miss the 7 East game standing around in Cameron for a couple hours before our 9 East game in order to get a decent space in 17.

The current freshmen, mostly being from well-off families, probably have had high-speed internet more than half their lives. Probably got it around 2001 or 2002? And they were born in 1994? Probably have had internet at home as long as they can remember. They've been staring at screens their whole lives, even more so than us old folks did. This is what Americans do now. Stare at screens.

This is sensational, and something I've run into myself. I live about 10 minutes from Giants Stadium, yet I've only seen one live NFL game ever, a free ticket for preseason Jets-Eagles a couple years ago. Maybe my second year back from Duke, a friend called and offered me Giants-Dolphins tickets in October. (I'm a big Dolphins fan.) I turned him down for a couple reasons: I don't like sitting out in the cold -- and that was October! The beer in my refrigerator was about 1/9 the cost; I rarely drink now, but that was a factor back then. I don't love crowds. And honestly, it was just a hassle. Parking is $20 or whatever, you sit there in traffic for hours getting to the stadium... All things considered, I just wanted to stay home.

Don't get me wrong, I'll go to live games -- including one at Cameron about a month and a half ago -- but most of the time, I like to relax at home. I like to DVR the game so I can really get a true feel for what's going on, and lose the commercials. That's life. And to castigate the students for not showing up? I don't blame them in the least, if they simply have better things to do or don't want to deal with it. They honestly don't really owe Duke anything except their tuition. I never missed a game when I was there -- and famously, neither did Throatybeard, who was right next to me for a lot of them -- but everybody is different.

[anon]

This is just the same credo repeated over and over - "The students care more now about academics. the students are smarter now. The students have more riding on their academia." While they may be smarter than us backwoods hillbilly rednecks that obviously walked the halls in the 80s and 90s, the rest just isn't true.

Not sure if or how much you're joking, but I actually agree with the exact opposite of what you said. The students aren't in general smarter, but there certainly is much more pressure than before to succeed. College (including grad school) admissions is more of a game than ever, and the job market is smaller, which leads to greater competition.

Anyway, I really was just trying to make the point that just because students are watching the games on TV or their computers doesn't mean they're just being lazy — many of them do so while furiously multitasking.

[toooskies]

I'm gonna harp on the Cameron schedule one more time.

First, non-conference:
- According to Wikipedia, the 1990-91 team had home games at CIS against the following non-conference teams: Marquette, BC, East Carolina, Charlotte, Michigan, Lehigh, Boston University, LSU, Davidson. That's five "name" programs, three in-state programs, and Lehigh. The schedule also included home-and-homes with every ACC school, which takes away games versus Miami and Virginia Tech and adds games like N.C. State or Wake Forest.
- Again according to Wikipedia, the 2007-2008 team (year picked at random) faced Shaw, Barton, NC Central, New Mexico State, Eastern Kentucky, Wisconsin (ACC/B10), Michigan, Albany, Cornell, St. John's. That's 3 "name" programs (one conference-mandated), one in-state program, and 6 small-conference non-local teams.
- Last year's team had Princeton, Miami(OH), Colgate, Michigan State (ACC/B10), Bradley, St. Louis, Elon, UAB, Temple. Two "name" programs (one conference-mandated), one in-state program, and 6 small-conference non-local teams.
- This year's team has Belmont, Presbyterian, Davidson, Colorado State, UNCG, Western Michigan, Penn, St. John's. One "name" program, one in-state program, and 6 small-conference non-local teams.

I'm sorry, but it's pretty clear the quality of games in Cameron has gone down over the years. Throw in the negatives of conference expansion (fewer home-and-homes), and you have a problem. Now there are a variety of reasons for that. Playing good teams from small conferences is an easy win and great for the RPI. And home wins against good teams are discounted by RPI.

Now, there's a class of fan who will attend any game at any time. There are other classes of fans who just don't want to watch 6 glorified scrimmages. But there's a class of fan who won't go to a game unless it's an actual competition, or they have a sibling going to the opponent's school. Some fans need a better reason. Does Duke need its 6th man against Presbyterian or Western Michigan? Is it worth pulling an all-nighter instead of having the game on in the background while you study?

Now, a lot of this is just the trend of college basketball lately. But, it's not like anyone's listening to what the little guy wants when college sports are big business.

[Greg_Newton]

This is sensational, and something I've run into myself. I live about 10 minutes from Giants Stadium, yet I've only seen one live NFL game ever, a free ticket for preseason Jets-Eagles a couple years ago. Maybe my second year back from Duke, a friend called and offered me Giants-Dolphins tickets in October. (I'm a big Dolphins fan.) I turned him down for a couple reasons: I don't like sitting out in the cold -- and that was October! The beer in my refrigerator was about 1/9 the cost; I rarely drink now, but that was a factor back then. I don't love crowds. And honestly, it was just a hassle. Parking is $20 or whatever, you sit there in traffic for hours getting to the stadium... All things considered, I just wanted to stay home.

Don't get me wrong, I'll go to live games -- including one at Cameron about a month and a half ago -- but most of the time, I like to relax at home. I like to DVR the game so I can really get a true feel for what's going on, and lose the commercials. That's life. And to castigate the students for not showing up? I don't blame them in the least, if they simply have better things to do or don't want to deal with it. They honestly don't really owe Duke anything except their tuition. I never missed a game when I was there -- and famously, neither did Throatybeard, who was right next to me for a lot of them -- but everybody is different.

I don't know. Personally, I hate going to NFL games (unless I have great seats or something), because it's cold, not that exciting, a hassle, and I could have a much better view from the TV.

However, I love going to Cameron. It's one of the few venues left where you can feel like you're part of the game, something you can't replicate on TV. And assuming you're not in the very back row in the endzones, you've really got a better, closer view than the TV cameras.

[throatybeard]

The kids have been loud today.

[uh_no]

The kids have been loud today.

well they pulled a trick out of duke football's playbook and offered pizza to the dorm with the highest % attendance.....never thought i'd see the day we'd need to do that for bball

[Greg_Newton]

I was paying attention from a few rows above today, and, to put it bluntly, it's almost like they don't really understand basketball or have a sense for momentum. For example, when we cut it to 53-45 with ~12:50 to go, the whole building was going nuts, even the crusties were standing and yelling. Miami called a timeout... and the place turned into a morgue, with a lot of students looking kind of bored or disinterested. If there was ever a time to keep the noise going during a TO, that was it.

Another thing that annoys me is how "OUR HOUSE" is used. When we cut the lead to 65-64 with 4 minutes left, everyone in the building was up and screaming again, and it was the first time we'd really had a chance to take the lead. They'll chant "OUR HOUSE" loudly at the end of every 70-point blowout in November, but not at that moment (or during this game at all)??? Come on, the whole purpose of that chant was for nights like tonight.

I will say that there are a few great crazies down there, who really put their heart and soul into it all game, but they can't do it alone.

I also would like to hear "I'm blind, I'm deaf, my name's Karl Hess" at some point in my life, but that's a different kind of wish...

[Devilsfan]

At least they were very loud today. I wonder if someone had a little chat with them.

[wandalee]

I was paying attention from a few rows above today, and, to put it bluntly, it's almost like they don't really understand basketball or have a sense for momentum. For example, when we cut it to 53-45 with ~12:50 to go, the whole building was going nuts, even the crusties were standing and yelling. Miami called a timeout... and the place turned into a morgue, with a lot of students looking kind of bored or disinterested. If there was ever a time to keep the noise going during a TO, that was it.

Another thing that annoys me is how "OUR HOUSE" is used. When we cut the lead to 65-64 with 4 minutes left, everyone in the building was up and screaming again, and it was the first time we'd really had a chance to take the lead. They'll chant "OUR HOUSE" loudly at the end of every 70-point blowout in November, but not at that moment (or during this game at all)??? Come on, the whole purpose of that chant was for nights like tonight.

I will say that there are a few great crazies down there, who really put their heart and soul into it all game, but they can't do it alone.

I also would like to hear "I'm blind, I'm deaf, my name's Karl Hess" at some point in my life, but that's a different kind of wish...

At that 12:50 timeout, the band played "fat bottom girls" by Queen! Really? But, that's the song they are supposed to play then, so they played it. A more upbeat song would have kept the students/crusties yelling. Or the students could have broken traditional and yelled for the crazy towel guy in the 2nd half. IMHO, the band/students are too mired in tradition; they must do all songs and cheers in the same order, game after game, year after year.

But, overall, the crowd was very good in the 2nd half.

[Channing]

well they pulled a trick out of duke football's playbook and offered pizza to the dorm with the highest % attendance.....never thought i'd see the day we'd need to do that for bball

this can't be true ... is it? a sad sad day.

[Cell-R]

this can't be true ... is it? a sad sad day.
I don't think anyone came because of that.

[scottdude8]

As much as the loss today sucked, I think the Crazies certainly answered the call (and I'll defend that to the death, no matter what anyone, even K, says). The bleachers might not have been completely full, but the fans that were there (and there were definitely 8-900, which is a pretty typical crowd) were incredible. Minus a Carolina game, this was perhaps the game that I was most drained from—emotionally, physically and vocally—in my four years as an undergrad. There were more moments in that second half that I couldn't hear myself screaming than any other game besides a Carolina game. Even when our team was playing horribly (and lets make no mistake, they did for a large portion of the game) the Crazies did their part.

There is no doubt that there are issues in Cameron, and a lot of them have been brought up on this board. Overall attendance is an issue. But the fire, dedication and emotional investment of the students that do regularly pack Cameron can not be questioned, and I think this game proved it. So question the songs, the timeouts, the general admission, etc... but we need to stop ragging on the Crazies themselves. As a dedicated Crazie who is counting down his last games in Cameron, it hurts that these issues abound. But lets remember that there are still a ton of students who sweat and bleed for this team... even if they don't seem like they're always repairing the favor.

[uh_no]

Another thing that annoys me is how "OUR HOUSE" is used. When we cut the lead to 65-64 with 4 minutes left, everyone in the building was up and screaming again, and it was the first time we'd really had a chance to take the lead. They'll chant "OUR HOUSE" loudly at the end of every 70-point blowout in November, but not at that moment (or during this game at all)??? Come on, the whole purpose of that chant was for nights like tonight.


I disagree. The point is that it is our house, and we're never going to go down without a fight, and that's certainly what happened today. It accomplishes 2 things:

a) reminds the other team that they're in cameron, and you don't just walk into cameron and win easy....

b) it reminds our team that they're in cameron and that we're going to fight back even when we seem to be down for the count....its very much akin to slapping the floor on defense....now....there's a whole other thread on that....so

[weezie]

we need to stop ragging on the Crazies themselves

Amen, brother. Good, rocking crowd today. I think they deserve a ton of credit for willing the team to come back. The team owes the fans and I think they know that.

[uh_no]

this can't be true ... is it? a sad sad day.


Crazies,

Big game today. Miami is coming to Cameron at 3pm. Miami is a big and
talented team, so our team is going to need us as their sixth man.
Let's show up and be loud and creative. Free tshirts for the first 300
students and the dorm with the highest percentage attendence from
their dorm gets free pizza for their dorm's super bowl party!

Doors open at 1:30. See you in Cameron!

it is very true

[MattC09]

I was paying attention from a few rows above today, and, to put it bluntly, it's almost like they don't really understand basketball or have a sense for momentum. For example, when we cut it to 53-45 with ~12:50 to go, the whole building was going nuts, even the crusties were standing and yelling. Miami called a timeout... and the place turned into a morgue, with a lot of students looking kind of bored or disinterested. If there was ever a time to keep the noise going during a TO, that was it.

Another thing that annoys me is how "OUR HOUSE" is used. When we cut the lead to 65-64 with 4 minutes left, everyone in the building was up and screaming again, and it was the first time we'd really had a chance to take the lead. They'll chant "OUR HOUSE" loudly at the end of every 70-point blowout in November, but not at that moment (or during this game at all)??? Come on, the whole purpose of that chant was for nights like tonight.

I will say that there are a few great crazies down there, who really put their heart and soul into it all game, but they can't do it alone.

I also would like to hear "I'm blind, I'm deaf, my name's Karl Hess" at some point in my life, but that's a different kind of wish...

This has been one of my pet peeves since I was a freshman. The band will play in timeouts no matter the situation. In close games, the students should be yelling and harassing the opposition team during timeouts. There have been a number of games where the entire student section(undergrad and grad) are all screaming but the band strikes up right on cue. This drowns out the students and makes it difficult to keep people into the game during timeouts. The band has its place, but it is, at times, a detriment to the crazies and atmosphere of Cameron. When Demarcus Nelson was mounting his one-man-comeback in 2006 against UNC, the band shouldn't have touched their instruments during that stretch.

In the grad section, the band and the artificial music had a clear effect on the students who were trying to heckle the Miami bench. With the game getting closer, I didn't want to hear Cascada during a timeout. I would like the students, band included, to be belting out chants at Miami or just generally being noisy. There were several dubious calls that got boos, but the "Blind, deaf" chant didn't get much of an airing because the music from the PA or band.

As you say, tradition dictates that the timeouts are now filled with music and the students/band expect that. Prior to the game, I think it might have been good to get a "Defense" going to kinda set the tone for the game. Overall, it was better than it has been, but the band and PA hurt the atmosphere at times more than they improve it.

[Greg_Newton]

I disagree. The point is that it is our house, and we're never going to go down without a fight, and that's certainly what happened today. It accomplishes 2 things:

a) reminds the other team that they're in cameron, and you don't just walk into cameron and win easy....

b) it reminds our team that they're in cameron and that we're going to fight back even when we seem to be down for the count....its very much akin to slapping the floor on defense....now....there's a whole other thread on that....so

Exactly. What do you disagree about, then? We were behind, yet had clawed our back to within striking distance at a crucial juncture in the game, and everyone was pumped up. It was the first team Miami hadn't been in the driver's seat all game, and it was near enough the end that possessions were going to start to matter.

How is that NOT when all 9,000 fans should start chanting "OUR HOUSE"?

[duke1113]

They played Cascada at the end of regulation prior to OT, not a media timeout. Once again, it's all Crazies/Band in-game.