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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 91, Wake Forest 73 Post Game Thread



Bob Green
01-19-2012, 09:18 PM
Discuss the game here.

weezie
01-19-2012, 09:25 PM
Good to see that sparkle from the defense.

I'm pretty sure Elmore and Patrick are paid by the word. Jeez-o-pete did they blather tonight!

jv001
01-19-2012, 09:27 PM
Good to see we played well enough to get everyone some minutes with FSU on Saturday. In the first half Andre could have shot it blind folded and made the 3. He had good instances of denying his man the ball, but he was burned on a few back doors. Austin not starting was a surprise. Probably a point made by Coach K. He played very well. To me Austin seems quick on his feet and could probably guard the pg. Seth had a good all around game. Once again getting those quick hands on many balls. I have not seen the box score so I can't comment much more than this. Good game for the good guys. Now beat the Noles. GoDuke!

hq2
01-19-2012, 09:29 PM
Nice seeing Seth drive to the bucket more. Good he can show a more all-around game;
helps open up his outside shooting some.

77devil
01-19-2012, 09:31 PM
Hairston didn't commit a flagrant foul, but Daniel Ewing definitely deserved a T.

niveklaen
01-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Dawk & Rivers each w/ 20 - does Seth take a turn as sixth man next?

Loved seeing Kelly take advantage of the mismatch in the post - hadn't seen that from him before.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-19-2012, 09:32 PM
Lots to like -

-Consistent intensity from the team from open to close
-Solid and balanced offense
-Great rebounding and hustle for loose balls
-Got several players hot on offense for periods (I'm liking Rivers' decision making more and more and words can't even describe Andre's first half)
-Continually disrupted Wake's sets
-Maggette and Henderson in the stands
-The shots and interview with Childress - one of my favorite non-Dukers in ACC history

Dislike -

-For being so much bigger, the Plumlees couldn't capitalize much on offense
-Wake got too many easy shots (breaks or give and gos that led to wide open lay ups after switches)
-Crowd (on TV) didn't seem as engaged as I would anticipate
-Noticeable limp from Cook following that last three pointer

The bizarre Hairston foul that Elmore described as a terrible call for four minutes before changing his mind. Never did see a replay that was able to show Hairston giving nearly as much contact as McKie gave his teammate.

The takeaway -

It's a game we were supposed to win, and we won it the way we should have. Credit Wake for not throwing in the towel and keeping it below 20 for most of the second half - I think that program has bounced off the bottom and is headed in the right direction. I liked the line up changes - not for any particular reason other than I like that K is still mixing things up and tooling with the chemistry. 4-0 in ACC play puts us on top of the heap, at least until Saturday. Now, it's time to (gulp) root for the Hokies tonight and then get ready for a sure showdown on Saturday. Next play.

gwlaw99
01-19-2012, 09:39 PM
I completely agree that Rivers decision making has improved tremendously. Great to see him finding the right balance tonight.

Andre. Wow.

Saratoga2
01-19-2012, 09:43 PM
I thought before the game that we should be able to win the game so I was looking for some keys to how players were progressing.

1. It was pretty clear that Andre was on his game from the get go. His shooting wasn't just good, it was outstanding and he played a decent defense.

2. I was looking for intensity at the outset and I thought the team came to play and got down to business with defense pressure and rebounding and with Austin not starting, Andre and Seth provided early points and Kelly was outstanding from the first substitution and throughout the game.

3. With Andre not starting I wondered if he would pick it up or stay off as he has recently been. With only about one exception he was aggressive and made good decisions. I had him at 20 points, Andre with 21, all in the first half, Ryan with 20, earned throughout the whole game and Seth with 14.

4. Mason shot reasonably well from the foul line. I think he hit 3 for 5, but I may be wrong. He was back to the hesitation foul shot with little arc but he hit 60% anyway.

5. I was looking for how well Quinn would do, but thought his defense was a little off and he did try to get the ball inside, but I liked Seth's game a little better tonight.


MY general thoughts on the game is that it was a good one for us and we did get to rest some of the key players and give some of the deeper subs some PT. Since we are playing a Thursday night and Saturday afternoon game, the lighter playing time for the starters should be a plus against FSU. My other thought is that Wake came out and attacked us with a determination to get off shots inside or get fouled. I thought we were giving up a lot of foul shots, many more than we got.

Anyhow, good game to build off of.

Duvall
01-19-2012, 09:44 PM
Dawk & Rivers each w/ 20 - does Seth take a turn as sixth man next?

There's only one answer - ALPHABETICAL ROTATION.

mkline09
01-19-2012, 10:12 PM
Saw this post game. Not very detailed and no status update but something to keep an eye on.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/rapid-reports/post/16935604

Acymetric
01-19-2012, 10:16 PM
If anyone has/sees video of the Hairston incident could they post it? I was at the game and didn't see anything, but then I wasn't really looking for major contact after the made FT (way to go Mason!)

Loved seeing Dre on fire in the first half but wish it would have carried over, and he took one or two really poor shots once he was "feeling it" that had almost no chance of going in. Otherwise a solid game, already looking forward to Saturday! Only question is will I have enough time to rest? 48 hours is a quick turnaround, I may still be tired ;)

roywhite
01-19-2012, 10:17 PM
I thought the second half resembled a game against an over-matched non-conference team where there is a large margin, Duke substitutes freely, and the game gets sloppy.
Wake is making some progress, but is still a pretty bad team.

Other than that, I enjoyed watching Andre shoot so well in the first half, and share the concern about Quinn Cook's knee giving him trouble.

Bluedevil114
01-20-2012, 12:11 AM
Elmore and Patrick had no idea that Henderson was sitting next to Maggette at the Duke game tonight. Those two are clueless. They may had thought it was Jarrett Jack or Wayne Ellington.

Billy Dat
01-20-2012, 12:15 AM
The K post-game quotes were telling, especially..

"I don't like the word 'bench.' I don't know where that word comes from. Bench means that he sat on the bench. To me, he scored 20 points and played 32 minutes. Everybody should be benched like that. It's our look at trying to look at different lineups, different ways of doing this team. Was Ryan [Kelly] benched? I mean, we just started a different group, just like we started a different group in the second half against Clemson. Eight of our guys have started, so when one guy isn't starting, it doesn't mean he's awful. It means we're looking at a little bit different thing or way of doing the game. And that's just the way our team has to be."

I know he has said this kind of thing before, but is there a recent precedent for this kind of game-in/game out line-up shifting this late in the season? It seems as if starting is, indeed, being handed out meritocratically - practices must be insane. Perhaps because we don't have 1-2 dominant offensive players, it favors us to keep spinning the line-up wheel - it makes it harder to prepare to play against them...maybe?

-Dre, have you been watching JJ tapes? Not only for nailing 7 3s in one half, but also for how hard you were working to get open. It's when he works that hard to get a good look that we all get gaga about his talent. Funny how his offensive explosions tend to happen for one half only, but he's put together a nice string of games.

-I wish someone would/could measure our offensive efficiency when Mason, Miles or Ryan get an entry pass vs when they don't. We seem better when they do.

-Nice assist total for Tyler - he was feeding Dre's hot hand during that first half run.

-I agree, it was great seeing Maggette at the game with G. I hate when it when former players, no matter the length of their tenure or the problems they had (attitude, rule breaking), don't return and remain an active part of the program.

-Big game Saturday.

Kedsy
01-20-2012, 12:43 AM
Pretty good intensity on defense tonight, which is good. Although Wake got a lot of layup chances, which is not so good.

The Andre chicken-and-egg thing to me seems to start with him hitting a shot and the team taking notice. He clearly works harder to get open if he thinks he's going to get the ball. Once he hits a few, the team would be crazy not to feed him, and he knows it so he works even harder. If he doesn't think he's going to get the ball then he stands around more. Having said that, he was also more active on D and when he had the ball early. He tried to feed the post several times. In the second half Andre seemed to think the team didn't need his effort so he laid back more.

Tyler had 8 assists against 1 turnover, but it was misleading. Six of the 8 were first half assists on Andre three-pointers. His other two assists were also on first half three-pointers (one by Seth and one by Austin). He didn't pass inside much. I'll give him credit for finding three-point shooters (which is not always his strength), but I'm still not impressed with the way he runs the offense.

I hope Quinn's OK.


Loved seeing Kelly take advantage of the mismatch in the post - hadn't seen that from him before.

I knew he had it in him. That's why I'm not worried about him playing C next season.


Elmore and Patrick had no idea that Henderson was sitting next to Maggette at the Duke game tonight. Those two are clueless. They may had thought it was Jarrett Jack or Wayne Ellington.

Yes they did. They identified both of them by name and mentioned they were teammates on Charlotte. I've never been a big fan of Elmore, but he scored points with me by saying -- several times -- that the top three teams in the ACC were obviously Duke, Virginia, and Florida State, and that he guessed you had to give the edge for the fourth spot to UNC.

Bluedevil114
01-20-2012, 01:02 AM
Yes they did. They identified both of them by name and mentioned they were teammates on Charlotte. I've never been a big fan of Elmore, but he scored points with me by saying -- several times -- that the top three teams in the ACC were obviously Duke, Virginia, and Florida State, and that he guessed you had to give the edge for the fourth spot to UNC.[/QUOTE]

Go back and watch the game again. I rewinded the tape twice and they never mentioned Maggette as being the player next to Henderson. Yes they mentioned they were teammates in Charlotte but they never said it was Corey. Elmore is so anti-Duke how could you become a fan tonight? Their commentary was so far off and I am as big a Duke fan as they come and I am sorry UNC is still the #1 team in the ACC. They took a big loss to FSU but come on it is Duke/UNC and everyone else. Watch UNC on the boards and you will see it. The talent is there and Duke has the edge in coaching.

JNort
01-20-2012, 01:06 AM
Yes they did. They identified both of them by name and mentioned they were teammates on Charlotte. I've never been a big fan of Elmore, but he scored points with me by saying -- several times -- that the top three teams in the ACC were obviously Duke, Virginia, and Florida State, and that he guessed you had to give the edge for the fourth spot to UNC.


Go back and watch the game again. I rewinded the tape twice and they never mentioned Maggette as being the player next to Henderson. Yes they mentioned they were teammates in Charlotte but they never said it was Corey. Elmore is so anti-Duke how could you become a fan tonight? Their commentary was so far off and I am as big a Duke fan as they come and I am sorry UNC is still the #1 team in the ACC. They took a big loss to FSU but come on it is Duke/UNC and everyone else. Watch UNC on the boards and you will see it. The talent is there and Duke has the edge in coaching.

Hmm I will have to check but I thought I recalled both being mentioned as teammates for Charlotte as well. I would not put UNC number 1 over Duke but they are my number 2 until they play Virginia

Kedsy
01-20-2012, 01:31 AM
Go back and watch the game again. I rewinded the tape twice and they never mentioned Maggette as being the player next to Henderson. Yes they mentioned they were teammates in Charlotte but they never said it was Corey. Elmore is so anti-Duke how could you become a fan tonight? Their commentary was so far off and I am as big a Duke fan as they come and I am sorry UNC is still the #1 team in the ACC. They took a big loss to FSU but come on it is Duke/UNC and everyone else. Watch UNC on the boards and you will see it. The talent is there and Duke has the edge in coaching.

I don't have to watch it again. I am embarrassed to admit I didn't immediately recognize Corey, and I only realized who it was because either Patrick or Elmore identified him (although perhaps not at the exact point you were rewinding). Also, I didn't say I thought UNC was #4, but I thought it was hilarious that Elmore said that several times. I also didn't say I was a fan of Elmore, simply that he scored some points with me tonight. Putting all that aside, at some point you can't say UNC is #1 in the league based on talent without results. Not sure we're at that point yet, but if not we're pretty close.

JNort
01-20-2012, 01:59 AM
I don't have to watch it again. I am embarrassed to admit I didn't immediately recognize Corey, and I only realized who it was because either Patrick or Elmore identified him (although perhaps not at the exact point you were rewinding). Also, I didn't say I thought UNC was #4, but I thought it was hilarious that Elmore said that several times. I also didn't say I was a fan of Elmore, simply that he scored some points with me tonight. Putting all that aside, at some point you can't say UNC is #1 in the league based on talent without results. Not sure we're at that point yet, but if not we're pretty close.

Must say I was in the same boat as you.... I did not recognize him either until someone on tv said something. Don't feel to embarrassed. ;)

Greg_Newton
01-20-2012, 03:17 AM
Always good to get an ACC win, but really, this wasn't an ACC team. I thought Dre put some lipstick on an otherwise quite ugly pig of first half against a very bad squad today; 2012 Wake Forest should not be getting either a layup or a trip to the line (in Cameron) every time they manage to dribble the ball past halfcourt without tripping over their own feet. I honestly don't think they're better than any team we played before exams except Presbyterian... maybe not even them by much.

At risk of sounding spoiled, this team makes me a little anxious to watch, because while we have many skilled offensive players, no one exactly inspires confidence that they can get pumped up and lock things down on defense when we need to. We've got a lot of nice, likeable, talented guys, but not really anyone that has the mental and physical makeup to face down the opponent, look them in the eye, and just decide they're going to beat them. We seem to be playing to appease the coaches, rather than playing to compete and beat the man in front of us. I'm not sure if it's an issue with experience, leadership, pride, confidence, physical deficiencies, or some combination, but to be frank. this is at least the most porous, if not worst, defense we've fielded in a few years, as of now.

Anyway, I did think this might have been the best Seth's looked in the past month, overall. He still got beat a few times, but he's finally starting to look like he's thinking and moving quicker than the opponents, rather than slower. I think that's a huge key for this team.

But lastly, I'm disappointed to see that Gbinije has completely dropped out of the rotation. I worry that we may get lulled to sleep a little by coasting through a terrible ACC, and not really address our perimeter vulnerabilities until we're staring bigger, more athletic players in the face at every position in the postseason. I know Mike doesn't look very ready for big minutes at this point, but something tells me getting him game ready hasn't exactly been a point of emphasis in practice this year. You can tell he's lost confidence since being in the early rotation, even just watching his body language.

oldnavy
01-20-2012, 07:44 AM
If anyone has/sees video of the Hairston incident could they post it? I was at the game and didn't see anything, but then I wasn't really looking for major contact after the made FT (way to go Mason!)

Loved seeing Dre on fire in the first half but wish it would have carried over, and he took one or two really poor shots once he was "feeling it" that had almost no chance of going in. Otherwise a solid game, already looking forward to Saturday! Only question is will I have enough time to rest? 48 hours is a quick turnaround, I may still be tired ;)

There was nothing to see. Josh blocked out his man, but made the mistake of putting his hand up near the guys throat and pushed him. This stuff happens all the time, but it seems that it has become a point of emphasis for the refs. I am not even sure I would have called a foul on the play, because part of blocking out is pushing, but he did push the guy. Josh was not even looking at the guy so I am sure he didn't intentionally go for his throat, and the Wake guy played it up a bit. But what really hacks me off is that the refs spent a good 5 minutes of so looking at the replays. I hope this doesn't become an every game thing. The Miles elbow call in the Clemson game was worse in my opinion. Clearly a flop that even Hubert Davis admitted was a bad call, yet the refs went under the hood and still called it a flagerant foul... not sure what these guys see, but it is different than what I see....

MCFinARL
01-20-2012, 07:50 AM
Pretty good intensity on defense tonight, which is good. Although Wake got a lot of layup chances, which is not so good.

The Andre chicken-and-egg thing to me seems to start with him hitting a shot and the team taking notice. He clearly works harder to get open if he thinks he's going to get the ball. Once he hits a few, the team would be crazy not to feed him, and he knows it so he works even harder. If he doesn't think he's going to get the ball then he stands around more. Having said that, he was also more active on D and when he had the ball early. He tried to feed the post several times. In the second half Andre seemed to think the team didn't need his effort so he laid back more.




Could be--but he was also covered more tightly by Wake Forest in the second half, and as he noted in the post-game interview, that opened up opportunities for Seth. Maybe that is, in fact, a good assessment of what the team needed in the second half.

SupaDave
01-20-2012, 08:22 AM
Pretty good intensity on defense tonight, which is good. Although Wake got a lot of layup chances, which is not so good.

The Andre chicken-and-egg thing to me seems to start with him hitting a shot and the team taking notice. He clearly works harder to get open if he thinks he's going to get the ball. Once he hits a few, the team would be crazy not to feed him, and he knows it so he works even harder. If he doesn't think he's going to get the ball then he stands around more. Having said that, he was also more active on D and when he had the ball early. He tried to feed the post several times. In the second half Andre seemed to think the team didn't need his effort so he laid back more.

Tyler had 8 assists against 1 turnover, but it was misleading. Six of the 8 were first half assists on Andre three-pointers. His other two assists were also on first half three-pointers (one by Seth and one by Austin). He didn't pass inside much. I'll give him credit for finding three-point shooters (which is not always his strength), but I'm still not impressed with the way he runs the offense.

I hope Quinn's OK.



I knew he had it in him. That's why I'm not worried about him playing C next season.



Yes they did. They identified both of them by name and mentioned they were teammates on Charlotte. I've never been a big fan of Elmore, but he scored points with me by saying -- several times -- that the top three teams in the ACC were obviously Duke, Virginia, and Florida State, and that he guessed you had to give the edge for the fourth spot to UNC.

8 assists and you're still not happy? Geez! LOL! So if they were all alley-oops I guess they probably wouldn't count either... (I'd much rather the assist for the three than the two btw).

And yes - Quinn was noticeably cringing and favoring his left knee.

moonpie23
01-20-2012, 08:39 AM
does the league rescind flagrant fouls? if they watch that again without the heat of the game looking over their shoulders, is there a chance they will take that back? i know they do in the NBA cause the fouls are cumulative....

just wondering

forbiddendonut
01-20-2012, 08:51 AM
I thought Duke's defensive performance last night was their worst of the season (I realize how damning this statement is).

94duke
01-20-2012, 08:56 AM
In the interesting-and-fun-but-absolutely-meaningless-stat category, We had 2, yes 2 palindromes last night!

Duke - Wake
53 - 35
86 - 68

I can't seem to remember having 2 in one game before this. ;) :p :cool:

Channing
01-20-2012, 09:09 AM
it was fun to see Austin Rivers go off over a 5 minute stretch or so early in the 2nd half. He was getting to the rim at will, and then nailed a deep 3. It shows what he is capable of. However, I would like to see a little more passing when he gets near the rim (like the sick bounce pass he through Mason under the hoop a couple games ago). Once of the things that made Kyrie so fun to watch was his ability to get in the lane and then get the ball to the bigs for a strong finish.

Also loved seeing Andre start the game the way he played last game. I am not sure if he doesn't have confidence in his driving abilities, but with his touch and athleticism, if he put the ball on the deck more not only could he get the pull up jumpers, but probably get more room for himself on the perimeter (as defenders would now have to respect his drive).

ChillinDuke
01-20-2012, 09:11 AM
Nice win. Thought we looked focused. Didn't think Wake was quite as bad as some are suggesting.


Pretty good intensity on defense tonight, which is good. Although Wake got a lot of layup chances, which is not so good.

The Andre chicken-and-egg thing to me seems to start with him hitting a shot and the team taking notice. He clearly works harder to get open if he thinks he's going to get the ball. Once he hits a few, the team would be crazy not to feed him, and he knows it so he works even harder. If he doesn't think he's going to get the ball then he stands around more. Having said that, he was also more active on D and when he had the ball early. He tried to feed the post several times. In the second half Andre seemed to think the team didn't need his effort so he laid back more.

Kedsy (or anyone for that matter with some X's and O's knowledge), I'm wondering if Dre's movement without the ball is less a function of willingness and more a function of play selection. This has been brought up many times before, but for the first time it became striking to me last night on a particular first half play where we swung the ball left on the perimeter while Andre faked left on the baseline and double backed right through a double screen (in the end coming off a Kelly screen) in sync with the ball reversing back right on the perimeter from Thornton to Dre for an open three. It was a very clear and gorgeous play. Right out of the JJ Handbook.

I know this has been discussed before, but now I'm somewhat more convinced that if we don't run a play like that, Dre's movement can be so sweeping that the entire arrangement of players on the court (spreading, persona, lanes, etc) would be affected, perhaps negatively. Thoughts?


I hope Quinn's OK.

Ugh. Me too.

- Chillin

Papa John
01-20-2012, 09:12 AM
In the interesting-and-fun-but-absolutely-meaningless-stat category, We had 2, yes 2 palindromes last night!

Duke - Wake
53 - 35
86 - 68

I can't seem to remember having 2 in one game before this. ;) :p :cool:

Not only that, but you'll note that both were 18-point spreads... What amazing symmetry demonstrated by our boys!

devildeac
01-20-2012, 09:13 AM
does the league rescind flagrant fouls? if they watch that again without the heat of the game looking over their shoulders, is there a chance they will take that back? i know they do in the NBA cause the fouls are cumulative....

just wondering


I wouldn't be surprised if they reviewed both "events" and then handed out 1 game suspensions for Miles and Josh. And a technical to Daniel Ewing.

(just kidding. sort of)

Josephd0
01-20-2012, 09:32 AM
I haven't seen too many comments on the effort Ryan put in. From his comments after the game and from his play during, it's easy to see that he was going after it more than he has recently. I thought he played much "Bigger" than Mason or Miles. He bullied his way to the basket a few times and snatched away several rebounds that were up for grabs. I recall one instance in particular where there was a loose ball under the rim. He wrestled it away from a Wake player or two and quickly went up strong for a layup. We're going to need that kind of toughness from everyone on Saturday. More so than even Dre and Austin, Ryan impressed me tonight with his effort and with his aggressiveness. He just wanted it more tonight than I have seen from him in a while.

dukepsy1963
01-20-2012, 09:32 AM
....that, in my opinion, 95% of the "analyses" in these post-game threads stink. We stayed at home, we played rather well, we WON. That's it.



Old Trinity Dukie (watching and pulling for our guys since the crust of the earth was formed)



GO DUKE!!!

Ichabod Drain
01-20-2012, 09:52 AM
Yes they did. They identified both of them by name and mentioned they were teammates on Charlotte. I've never been a big fan of Elmore, but he scored points with me by saying -- several times -- that the top three teams in the ACC were obviously Duke, Virginia, and Florida State, and that he guessed you had to give the edge for the fourth spot to UNC.

Go back and watch the game again. I rewinded the tape twice and they never mentioned Maggette as being the player next to Henderson. Yes they mentioned they were teammates in Charlotte but they never said it was Corey. Elmore is so anti-Duke how could you become a fan tonight? Their commentary was so far off and I am as big a Duke fan as they come and I am sorry UNC is still the #1 team in the ACC. They took a big loss to FSU but come on it is Duke/UNC and everyone else. Watch UNC on the boards and you will see it. The talent is there and Duke has the edge in coaching.

For your enjoyment... DBP posted a video highlighting dunks from G and Corey's days at Duke. At the beginning you can hear them name both of them. Video is really good as well, brings back memories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtnsfZi5io&list=UU9KCzNMmf0IRcEIsFDgt2bg&index=1&feature=plcp

roywhite
01-20-2012, 09:58 AM
I haven't seen too many comments on the effort Ryan put in. From his comments after the game and from his play during, it's easy to see that he was going after it more than he has recently. I thought he played much "Bigger" than Mason or Miles. He bullied his way to the basket a few times and snatched away several rebounds that were up for grabs. I recall one instance in particular where there was a loose ball under the rim. He wrestled it away from a Wake player or two and quickly went up strong for a layup. We're going to need that kind of toughness from everyone on Saturday. More so than even Dre and Austin, Ryan impressed me tonight with his effort and with his aggressiveness. He just wanted it more tonight than I have seen from him in a while.

You make a good point.
Ryan had a good game, and he did seem more aggressive and intense than he has appeared sometimes.

To Mason, frankly I was disappointed about his offense down low against players his size.
His moves were not smooth and he got blocked a few times. Don't really want to direct the thread toward this topic, but he didn't look NBA ready.

Our big men have a real test Saturday vs FSU.
Seems to me we need good games from at least two of the Miles/Mason/Kelly group....good games from all three would be great.

COYS
01-20-2012, 10:01 AM
This is a hard game to judge because the staff was very quick to put in Josh and Mike G in the second half. I think this game would have ended as a 30 point blowout if we hadn't gone with some of our rarer lineup combos for such large segments of the second half. Also, I don't know that I've ever seen so many fouls called in the last ten minutes of a game that has essentially already been decided, although it might just feel that way to me. That final quarter of the game was so disjointed and hard to watch. The refs had been letting them play all night long, which led to an increasingly more physical game until that last stretch when they decided to tighten it up and caught both teams off guard.

Anyway, we gave up some layups in the first half, but for the most part, our defense was impressive. We maintained our intensity for the entire half, contested shots, and rotated reasonably well. SCACCHOOPS.com (http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=10522&bView=7&sInclude=doffeff) allows you to track efficiency throughout the game. From that stat, it is apparent that we played significantly better defense in the first half, when we held Wake to well below 1 point per possession before giving much of that back in the second half and allowing them to finish at 1.058 ppp, which includes the first half when we were really holding them down. This tells me that we essentially played one half of good defense, knocked them out of the game, and then let up on the gas pedal quite a bit (which was partially due to the lineups in the second half). Kenpom didn't like our overall defensive numbers in this game, but I'm not too discouraged. We were really strong in the first half, but K and the staff were quick to give Seth and others some rest, which probably contributed to our rather lackluster final numbers.

At any rate, the team did what they needed to do in the first half, did a great job knocking Wake completely out of the game in the early part of the second half, and then we kind of loafed through the final portion of the game but got some minutes for Josh and Mike as well as some rest for Seth and others.

moonpie23
01-20-2012, 10:28 AM
....that, in my opinion, 95% of the "analyses" in these post-game threads stink. We stayed at home, we played rather well, we WON. That's it.



Old Trinity Dukie (watching and pulling for our guys since the crust of the earth was formed)



GO DUKE!!!

bet you're no fun at Christmas. ;)

roywhite
01-20-2012, 10:31 AM
This is a hard game to judge because the staff was very quick to put in Josh and Mike G in the second half. I think this game would have ended as a 30 point blowout if we hadn't gone with some of our rarer lineup combos for such large segments of the second half. Also, I don't know that I've ever seen so many fouls called in the last ten minutes of a game that has essentially already been decided, although it might just feel that way to me. That final quarter of the game was so disjointed and hard to watch. The refs had been letting them play all night long, which led to an increasingly more physical game until that last stretch when they decided to tighten it up and caught both teams off guard.

Anyway, we gave up some layups in the first half, but for the most part, our defense was impressive. We maintained our intensity for the entire half, contested shots, and rotated reasonably well. SCACCHOOPS.com (http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=10522&bView=7&sInclude=doffeff) allows you to track efficiency throughout the game. From that stat, it is apparent that we played significantly better defense in the first half, when we held Wake to well below 1 point per possession before giving much of that back in the second half and allowing them to finish at 1.058 ppp, which includes the first half when we were really holding them down. This tells me that we essentially played one half of good defense, knocked them out of the game, and then let up on the gas pedal quite a bit (which was partially due to the lineups in the second half). Kenpom didn't like our overall defensive numbers in this game, but I'm not too discouraged. We were really strong in the first half, but K and the staff were quick to give Seth and others some rest, which probably contributed to our rather lackluster final numbers.

At any rate, the team did what they needed to do in the first half, did a great job knocking Wake completely out of the game in the early part of the second half, and then we kind of loafed through the final portion of the game but got some minutes for Josh and Mike as well as some rest for Seth and others.

Not a bad thing to limit the minutes of some of the guys with FSU coming up on a quick turn-around.
Unfortunately, I don't think Josh and Silent G helped themselves. Not much production, and 7 fouls between them in 16 minutes of playing time.

Rotation for now seems like 8 guys; I am concerned about Quinn's knee, so if he can't go, we either go with 7 or maybe another look at Silent G.

Ichabod Drain
01-20-2012, 10:49 AM
Not a bad thing to limit the minutes of some of the guys with FSU coming up on a quick turn-around.
Unfortunately, I don't think Josh and Silent G helped themselves. Not much production, and 7 fouls between them in 16 minutes of playing time.

Rotation for now seems like 8 guys; I am concerned about Quinn's knee, so if he can't go, we either go with 7 or maybe another look at Silent G.

Quinn was also sick last nice. I don't know which was affecting him more his knee or illness, but between the two he definately wasn't at a 100%. Hopefully he and his knee are both doing better by tomorrow but that is a quick turnaround.

Kedsy
01-20-2012, 10:57 AM
Kedsy (or anyone for that matter with some X's and O's knowledge), I'm wondering if Dre's movement without the ball is less a function of willingness and more a function of play selection. This has been brought up many times before, but for the first time it became striking to me last night on a particular first half play where we swung the ball left on the perimeter while Andre faked left on the baseline and double backed right through a double screen (in the end coming off a Kelly screen) in sync with the ball reversing back right on the perimeter from Thornton to Dre for an open three. It was a very clear and gorgeous play. Right out of the JJ Handbook.

I know this has been discussed before, but now I'm somewhat more convinced that if we don't run a play like that, Dre's movement can be so sweeping that the entire arrangement of players on the court (spreading, persona, lanes, etc) would be affected, perhaps negatively. Thoughts?

If Andre moves like he did in the first half, I think it helps our offense even if he never sees the ball, because at least two and maybe three defensive players would have to keep their eye on him and that opens the court big time for the other four Duke guys. If the opposing defense ignores him (as Wake seemed to several times in the first half), he's going to bury about two-thirds of his open looks. And once he hits a few, he often goes on a roll. Combine those possibilities, and I don't see how it can hurt our offense for Andre to move.

Running around like that takes an amazing amount of effort, though, and can get quite tiring even if you're in great shape. Wake was clearly keying on Andre more in the 2nd half, but I watched him specifically and he wasn't moving much at all, certainly not the way he was in the first half. I can't see into his mind, so I could be way off base, but it seems to me he expends that amazing amount of effort only when he (a) thinks the team needs it; and (b) thinks he's going to get the ball. In a way, it's hard to blame him, although it's kind of a shame because I believe he could be an all-conference player if he did it all the time.

feldspar
01-20-2012, 10:57 AM
does the league rescind flagrant fouls? if they watch that again without the heat of the game looking over their shoulders, is there a chance they will take that back? i know they do in the NBA cause the fouls are cumulative....

just wondering

Don't be too worried about the flagrant fouls. The new Flagrant 1 is basically just the old intentional foul. It doesn't have any impact on being suspended or cumulative or anything of that nature. The new Flagrant 2 is the old regular flagrant foul. Those are the ones you have to worry about.

TruBlu
01-20-2012, 11:35 AM
does the league rescind flagrant fouls? if they watch that again without the heat of the game looking over their shoulders, is there a chance they will take that back? i know they do in the NBA cause the fouls are cumulative....

just wondering

For what it's worth, we now lead the ACC in a new category: Phantom Phlagrant Phouls

Josephd0
01-20-2012, 11:43 AM
Is that of the 8 players that play considerable minutes, all of them (with the exception of maybe Tyler) can put up big nights. Most teams, Duke and others, have a few go to guys who always put up big numbers. That's been especially true with Duke in the past few years. It was Sheyer, Smith and Singler two years ago and it was Kyrie, Smith and Singler last year. With this team it's been different people almost every night. One night Kelly has a big night, the next time Miles might play big. Mason might have a big game the next time out after that. It's never the same people night in and night out. I think K would prefer to have a few guys who always score big and who we can always go to when it's close. It's sort of a weird problem to have. 7 guys who could average double figures. They can't all average double and it would be nice if we had consistency in who are leading scorers are, but at least when one or two are having an off night there are others to pick up the slack. That being said, I think aside from defense, the one thing keeping this team from being a very good team is that we don't have enough guys doing it every night out. I'd like to see Ryan, Mason, Andre and Seth being the main guys. Rivers makes too many mistakes even if he's the leading scorer. I think those other 4 should step up and lead. They are all juniors and they need to step up and lead. Two are captains.

Reilly
01-20-2012, 11:44 AM
In the interesting-and-fun-but-absolutely-meaningless-stat category, We had 2, yes 2 palindromes last night!

Duke - Wake
53 - 35
86 - 68

I can't seem to remember having 2 in one game before this. ;) :p :cool:

My very favorite was January 11, 1989, playing William & Mary, Duke was up 71-17.

Kedsy
01-20-2012, 12:26 PM
Is that of the 8 players that play considerable minutes, all of them (with the exception of maybe Tyler) can put up big nights.

How is that frustrating? When all we had were three primary scorers, people complained constantly that we didn't have enough offensive options. Now we have five guys averaging double-figure scoring, plus two guys who have had 16+ points at least once and two other guys who have scored in double-figures at least once, and that's a problem? Personally, I don't see anything frustrating about our offense (which according to Pomeroy is the 3rd best offense in the nation).

Our defense, on the other hand...

feldspar
01-20-2012, 12:48 PM
How is that frustrating? When all we had were three primary scorers, people complained constantly that we didn't have enough offensive options. Now we have five guys averaging double-figure scoring, plus two guys who have had 16+ points at least once and two other guys who have scored in double-figures at least once, and that's a problem? Personally, I don't see anything frustrating about our offense (which according to Pomeroy is the 3rd best offense in the nation)..

Agreed. I'm not sure why having balanced scoring and a host of offensive weapons is a bad thing.

dyedwab
01-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Personally, I don't see anything frustrating about our offense (which according to Pomeroy is the 3rd best offense in the nation).

Our defense, on the other hand...

While I agree that we have spent way too much time focusing on the ins and outs of our very successful offense this year, I would say that their is one thing that is very frustrating about our offense - and also our defense and that is decision-making.

Maybe its just me, but I find this team makes more "unforced errors" on both ends of the court then other Duke teams I remember. And, on the offensive end, usually it come from either trying to make a spectacular play, rather than a simple one, or trying to making a play single-handedly. And on both sides of the ball, we don't necessarily recognize what the other team is doing and get ourselves into trouble.

That said, it has gotten better over the year, but to me, decision-making is this team's achilles heel and it manifests itself on both ends of the floor.

Dopeshop
01-20-2012, 01:03 PM
since Hawaii, can someone provide his 3 point % ? It seems he's always open ,but not connecting. Thanks

superdave
01-20-2012, 01:42 PM
For your enjoyment... DBP posted a video highlighting dunks from G and Corey's days at Duke. At the beginning you can hear them name both of them. Video is really good as well, brings back memories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtnsfZi5io&list=UU9KCzNMmf0IRcEIsFDgt2bg&index=1&feature=plcp

Dare I admit that I wished they'd have shown G popping Hansborough in the nose? I probably should not say that out loud should I?

superdave
01-20-2012, 01:44 PM
since Hawaii, can someone provide his 3 point % ? It seems he's always open ,but not connecting. Thanks

No, but you could add it up from this link (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/51268/tyler-thornton).

: )

Ichabod Drain
01-20-2012, 02:13 PM
since Hawaii, can someone provide his 3 point % ? It seems he's always open ,but not connecting. Thanks

50% through the clemson game, I think he was 0-2 last night making it like 44%

Josephd0
01-20-2012, 02:13 PM
How is that frustrating? When all we had were three primary scorers, people complained constantly that we didn't have enough offensive options. Now we have five guys averaging double-figure scoring, plus two guys who have had 16+ points at least once and two other guys who have scored in double-figures at least once, and that's a problem? Personally, I don't see anything frustrating about our offense (which according to Pomeroy is the 3rd best offense in the nation).

Our defense, on the other hand...

Having balanced scoring is nice. However, not having a player or two that we can always go to when we need a basket is not nice. Because nobody is consistently the man every night out, we have looked lost at times when games have been close. For some of those games, they should have never been close. If we had a designated 2 or 3 players who we went to when the score was too close for comfort or when we were down, I think we'd be in better shape for a tourney run. In the Temple game for instance, I just didn't see anyone stepping up and taking and hitting big shots. We've got players who do it from time to time, but not someone that we go to every time we need a basket.

As for in the past, the problem people complained about wasn't that we had 3 go to scorers, it was that we weren't getting scoring from anywhere else. Even when we cut down the nets last time, the 3 S's were a huge portion of our scoring. Thankfully, nobody could shut more than one of them down on any given night.

Kedsy
01-20-2012, 03:45 PM
As for in the past, the problem people complained about wasn't that we had 3 go to scorers, it was that we weren't getting scoring from anywhere else.

Can't really have one without the other.


We've got players who do it from time to time, but not someone that we go to every time we need a basket.

Remember when we went to JJ every time we needed a basket? How'd that work out when the other team was able to shut him down? The advantage we have this year is opposing teams have a harder time game-planning their defense, because they have to guard everyone and don't know which players are going to have big games.

The Temple game was our only semi-close loss this season. And frankly, I don't think our offense failed us down the stretch nearly as much as our defense did.

wilko
01-20-2012, 04:10 PM
Any news on how our man Cook is doing?
Specifically - his knee. Chatter seemed to indicate he was dinged up. Hope its not serious!

-jk
01-20-2012, 04:22 PM
Nice win. Thought we looked focused. Didn't think Wake was quite as bad as some are suggesting.



Kedsy (or anyone for that matter with some X's and O's knowledge), I'm wondering if Dre's movement without the ball is less a function of willingness and more a function of play selection. This has been brought up many times before, but for the first time it became striking to me last night on a particular first half play where we swung the ball left on the perimeter while Andre faked left on the baseline and double backed right through a double screen (in the end coming off a Kelly screen) in sync with the ball reversing back right on the perimeter from Thornton to Dre for an open three. It was a very clear and gorgeous play. Right out of the JJ Handbook.

I know this has been discussed before, but now I'm somewhat more convinced that if we don't run a play like that, Dre's movement can be so sweeping that the entire arrangement of players on the court (spreading, persona, lanes, etc) would be affected, perhaps negatively. Thoughts?



Ugh. Me too.

- Chillin

I'll leave most of the Xs and Os comments for the experts. However, in the first half I did see a lot of 3-2 (or perhaps some other variant, but definitely 2 on the baseline) zones, leaving the sidelines from about the free-throw line extended down to the baseline fairly unprotected. They played a bunch more man in the second half and didn't give Andre any freedom.

As K says (and I feel sure Knight before him, and probably Iba before him): With zone, the offense decides who defends you; with man, the defense decides.

I would have liked to have seen Kelly take a couple from the corner during the zones, too - he likes that shot, and Wake was making it fairly easy.

-jk

bird
01-20-2012, 04:24 PM
My very favorite was January 11, 1989, playing William & Mary, Duke was up 71-17.

My frustration with "perfect" scores is that the game continues, and the final is some random assortment of digits.

Duvall
01-20-2012, 04:35 PM
Any news on how our man Cook is doing?
Specifically - his knee. Chatter seemed to indicate he was dinged up. Hope its not serious!

Expected to practice today (https://twitter.com/#!/stevewisemanNC/status/160462619982045184).

JMarley50
01-20-2012, 04:50 PM
Nice win. Thought we looked focused. Didn't think Wake was quite as bad as some are suggesting.



Kedsy (or anyone for that matter with some X's and O's knowledge), I'm wondering if Dre's movement without the ball is less a function of willingness and more a function of play selection. This has been brought up many times before, but for the first time it became striking to me last night on a particular first half play where we swung the ball left on the perimeter while Andre faked left on the baseline and double backed right through a double screen (in the end coming off a Kelly screen) in sync with the ball reversing back right on the perimeter from Thornton to Dre for an open three. It was a very clear and gorgeous play. Right out of the JJ Handbook.

I know this has been discussed before, but now I'm somewhat more convinced that if we don't run a play like that, Dre's movement can be so sweeping that the entire arrangement of players on the court (spreading, persona, lanes, etc) would be affected, perhaps negatively. Thoughts?



Ugh. Me too.

- Chillin

I think Kedsy is on the right track with his theory. But what I also think what we are seeing is it finally starting to click for Andre in general. He has appeared to realize just how hard he has to work to get open, and when he does he will be rewarded with more shots. If I am remembering correctly, a couple of Andre's shots (as did alot of JJ's) came well after the initial play ran its course and they had gotten into the motion offense. In the past when the initial play was broken, Andre would tend to start standing still or just merely floating around on one wing and wait on the ball to come to him. Lately he hasn't been doing that at all. He has been continuing to work to get open and find the ball. A motion offense is fairly unscripted, you just read what the defense is giving you and react accordingly. So in that scenario his movement would definitely be based on willingness and not by specific design.

I went to a fundraiser luncheon where Skip Prosser was speaking. This was when Chris Paul was at Wake. He was saying one of the things that amazed him most was how hard Chris worked. Then he started talking about getting kids who thought they were working hard and giving their all, to actually work hard and give it their all. Maybe this is what we are seeing with Andre. Not only is he working harder to get open on offense, he is playing arguably the best defense of his career as well. But regardless, whatever it is I'm loving it. Seeing that smile on his face last night was really nice. Hopefully he continues to keep it up!

Reilly
01-20-2012, 05:26 PM
My frustration with "perfect" scores is that the game continues, and the final is some random assortment of digits.

Well ... the game doesn't *have* to continue. Just get the other coach to agree to end it there and everybody leave. You don't even need the refs' buy-in. Or so I've heard.

ncexnyc
01-20-2012, 07:38 PM
How is that frustrating? When all we had were three primary scorers, people complained constantly that we didn't have enough offensive options. Now we have five guys averaging double-figure scoring, plus two guys who have had 16+ points at least once and two other guys who have scored in double-figures at least once, and that's a problem? Personally, I don't see anything frustrating about our offense (which according to Pomeroy is the 3rd best offense in the nation).

Our defense, on the other hand...

You've nailed it square on the head. Last year the conversation was we needed a third scorer to compliment Nolan and Kyle. Well this year we have quite a few guys who are capable of having really big nights. Sure it might be nice to pencil in a particular player for 20+ every night, but at least now teams can't focus on anyone player and build a game plan around that.

Kfanarmy
01-20-2012, 08:39 PM
from go duke.com "The Blue Devils were in danger of ending a streak of 33 consecutive games with a block until junior Todd Zafirovski recorded Duke’s only rejection of the game with 58 seconds remaining. It was the first career block for Zafirovski."

Greg_Newton
01-20-2012, 10:00 PM
from go duke.com "The Blue Devils were in danger of ending a streak of 33 consecutive games with a block until junior Todd Zafirovski recorded Duke’s only rejection of the game with 58 seconds remaining. It was the first career block for Zafirovski."

Speaking of that block... (skip to 2:36 for the scoop): :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwFNFeL6cbs&list=UU9KCzNMmf0IRcEIsFDgt2bg&index=1&feature=plcp&t=2m36s

greybeard
01-20-2012, 10:01 PM
There was nothing to see. Josh blocked out his man, but made the mistake of putting his hand up near the guys throat and pushed him. This stuff happens all the time, but it seems that it has become a point of emphasis for the refs. I am not even sure I would have called a foul on the play, because part of blocking out is pushing, but he did push the guy. Josh was not even looking at the guy so I am sure he didn't intentionally go for his throat, and the Wake guy played it up a bit. But what really hacks me off is that the refs spent a good 5 minutes of so looking at the replays. I hope this doesn't become an every game thing. The Miles elbow call in the Clemson game was worse in my opinion. Clearly a flop that even Hubert Davis admitted was a bad call, yet the refs went under the hood and still called it a flagerant foul... not sure what these guys see, but it is different than what I see....

I saw the play quite differently. Duke was shooting a free throw, Josh got his shoulder past the Wake player who had inside position and extended his arm to hold the guy off and beat him to the inside. The guy came back hard and low and then rose up; his left shoulder banged into Josh in the area proximate to the heart, maybe a little lower and the Wake guy and his shoulder were coming up with Josh's arm over it. Josh may have formed his arm in an elbow above the guy's shoulder, I don't recall, in order to protect his neck face and head, to me a perfectly reasonable defensive move. Josh's shoulder could have been dislocated on that play. Josh's arm got extended because of the force imparted by the Wake player who I thought had been called for the foul. With the whistle, the Wake guy stopped what until then was a pretty violent move and it looked like Josh tapped him on the face--it might have been a message and, if it was, it was well sent. The Wake guy should have been called for the foul and maybe Josh for a flagrant 1 as a provactive tap to the face. Intentional, yes, but it was clear that the extension up to the guy's face was due to the Wake player's violent response to Josh's having beaten him to the inside. So, what the refs might have been looking to was whether a substantial part of the extension was deliberate and that Josh pulled up at the last moment, which might have gotten him a flagrant II. The Wake player clearly got the better of the exchange--he gave Josh a shot with his shoulder that had to hurt and his continued rise, depending on how high it went and the angle of Josh's upper arm and the orientation of the head of the humerous in the shoulder socket, Josh might have ended up with a bad dislocation, perhaps a torn through ligament, maybe a broken collar bone. The guy stopped the forceful move when the whistle blew.

BTW, Josh was guarding the guy like a glove with a hammer in it afterward--they went to the ground after a ball under the Wake basket; Josh fell on top, making serious contact on parts where the opposite (land on right shoulder left gets bammed against a pretty hard surface. Some stuff you can't let go unanswered. I think that Josh correctly saw this as one of them.

Given the score, I'm not hating the refs' resolution of this Had it been close, I'd say they blew it by not calling a foul on the Wake guy.


After that, Josh, who was guarding the Wake guy, played him Hard.

oldnavy
01-20-2012, 10:19 PM
I saw the play quite differently. Duke was shooting a free throw, Josh got his shoulder past the Wake player who had inside position and extended his arm to hold the guy off and beat him to the inside. The guy came back hard and low and then rose up; his left shoulder banged into Josh in the area proximate to the heart, maybe a little lower and the Wake guy and his shoulder were coming up with Josh's arm over it. Josh may have formed his arm in an elbow above the guy's shoulder, I don't recall, in order to protect his neck face and head, to me a perfectly reasonable defensive move. Josh's shoulder could have been dislocated on that play. Josh's arm got extended because of the force imparted by the Wake player who I thought had been called for the foul. With the whistle, the Wake guy stopped what until then was a pretty violent move and it looked like Josh tapped him on the face--it might have been a message and, if it was, it was well sent. The Wake guy should have been called for the foul and maybe Josh for a flagrant 1 as a provactive tap to the face. Intentional, yes, but it was clear that the extension up to the guy's face was due to the Wake player's violent response to Josh's having beaten him to the inside. So, what the refs might have been looking to was whether a substantial part of the extension was deliberate and that Josh pulled up at the last moment, which might have gotten him a flagrant II. The Wake player clearly got the better of the exchange--he gave Josh a shot with his shoulder that had to hurt and his continued rise, depending on how high it went and the angle of Josh's upper arm and the orientation of the head of the humerous in the shoulder socket, Josh might have ended up with a bad dislocation, perhaps a torn through ligament, maybe a broken collar bone. The guy stopped the forceful move when the whistle blew.

BTW, Josh was guarding the guy like a glove with a hammer in it afterward--they went to the ground after a ball under the Wake basket; Josh fell on top, making serious contact on parts where the opposite (land on right shoulder left gets bammed against a pretty hard surface. Some stuff you can't let go unanswered. I think that Josh correctly saw this as one of them.

Given the score, I'm not hating the refs' resolution of this Had it been close, I'd say they blew it by not calling a foul on the Wake guy.


After that, Josh, who was guarding the Wake guy, played him Hard.

I could be remembering it wrong, but it seemed to me that it happened as you said, but as the player got up under Josh's right shoulder Josh reached across his body and got his left hand up under the guys chin and pushed him back. When the guy went back he slammed into his own player and bounced forward. I didn't think that it was that much out of line with about every other block out play you see. I didn't record the game so I can't go back and look at it, and with my memory going the way it is I cannot be sure.

And by the way, when was the last "hanging on the rim" technical foul you have seen called??

Kfanarmy
01-20-2012, 10:47 PM
Speaking of that block... (skip to 2:36 for the scoop That's great. Marshall seems like a character!