MBB: Duke 73, Clemson 66 Post-Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here. Securing our second conference road victory gives us a great start in conference.

[theAlaskanBear]

Dawkins MOTM.
Mason hits free throws.
Road win.

I'm glad we racheted up the intensity after a slow start and didn't let the emotion of the game get to us.

[fisheyes]

Mason 4-4 from the line! Way to go!!!

Andre the Giant!!!

Go Duke!!!

[Klemnop]

Discuss the game here. Securing our second conference road victory gives us a great start in conference.

Littlejohn is a tough place to play. It doesn't have to be pretty to be a W.

Klem

[feldspar]

Mason for President!

4-4 from the line.

[ArkieDukie]

Excellent game by Andre. Clearly the MOTM.

[cruxer]

We've seen that winning road ACC games certainly won't be easy this year. I love that we managed to close out the Tigers.

I get the new elbow rules, and I get how Hess could have thought Miles elbowed Tanner Smith, but they went to the video for goodness sake. Why have the video if they can't reverse what they surely must have seen was a bad call?

-c

[MChambers]

Under the transitive property of basketball, we will beat UNC by 60.

Miles was great tonight. Those two plays in the second half where he saved our possessions with taps were key.

[60's Devil]

Getting out of Littlejohn with a win is always an accomplishment. Go Andre!!!

[grossbus]

i glad that is over.


Flop Of The Match to tanner smith.

[Kedsy]

First few minutes it looked like we might be today's UNC, but I was happy to see us bear down and grit out the win on the road.

Eight man rotation. Eighth guy (Tyler) played 12 minutes.

[PumpkinFunk]

Miles was great tonight. Those two plays in the second half where he saved our possessions with taps were key.

Miles has been great for several games in a row now. He's not stuffing the stat sheet (except for rebounds), but he's quietly effective on both ends. The team is just better with him out there, as mind-boggling as that idea seemed at one point in time.

Andre was amazing tonight. Once he got his shot, he was lights-out. I hope this gives him his confidence back. He needs it. When he's making his shots, he seems to play better on the other end of the floor, or at least play harder on that end, which is desperately needed on this team.

[tendev]

We've seen that winning road ACC games certainly won't be easy this year. I love that we managed to close out the Tigers.

I get the new elbow rules, and I get how Hess could have thought Miles elbowed Tanner Smith, but they went to the video for goodness sake. Why have the video if they can't reverse what they surely must have seen was a bad call?

-c

The elbow non contact flagrant and the hanging on the rim. I think the ghost of Xavier Cincy is infecting the refereeing. They are not letting them play. Ticky tack fouls that weren't called in prior years are getting called.

[Duke76]

wonder why Cook went out for a long stretch in the 2nd part of 2nd half??
hope it wasn't cause K thought he had to get Austin back in

[Duvall]

Miles has been great for several games in a row now. He's not stuffing the stat sheet (except for rebounds), but he's quietly effective on both ends. The team is just better with him out there, as mind-boggling as that idea seemed at one point in time.


Miles has quietly been a great player for Duke this year. All he does is rebound on both ends, make high-percentage shots and protect the rim.

Good win. Can't complain about a Hess-adjusted double-digit conference road win.

[feldspar]

hanging on the rim.

That's probably the easiest call he had to make all night. That's a T 10 out of 10 times.

Seriously, I would think out of all the fanbases, Duke's would have the ability to look at the officiating with at least a modicum of objectivity. The in-game thread seems to indicate the opposite, however.

[Saratoga2]

My view was on game tracker again and I know that is not a great source but what can you do.

My questions are:

1. Did Clemson put on a lot of defensive pressure on the ball? We seemed to have a lot of turnovers, although the box score on CBS sports didn't indicate as many as I would have expected.
2. Why did we get off to such a slow start? Were we flat? Did turnovers cause this problem or is this team just impacted by playing in a tough gym?
3. For quite a while we seemed to be getting outrebounded with Mason well through the first hlf before getting a single one, while Miles was getting quite a few. Were the guards not helping on rebounds or was there some other reason, like lack of boxing out or being out physicaled?
4. We were using an end of game team without a point guard towards the end and wound up bitten by the serial TO bug. Finally, Tyler was put in. Why wouldn't we have a PG in the game with 4 minutes or less to go?
5. HOw would Andre's game be typified. He seemed to diversify his scoring tonight. This is a good sign, but was he being fed or was he just more aggressive tonight?

Good win and we got 73 despite getting off very slowly and having the TO bug? Austin was also seeing a lot of pine tonight and was not the big contributor he is expected to be.

[Duvall]

That's probably the easiest call he had to make all night. That's a T 10 out of 10 times.

Unless John Henson is one of the ten. But that was an easy call.

[Ichabod Drain]

The elbow non contact flagrant and the hanging on the rim. I think the ghost of Xavier Cincy is infecting the refereeing. They are not letting them play. Ticky tack fouls that weren't called in prior years are getting called.

As far as the hanging on the rim goes I knew they were going to call it even before he blew the whistle. It's a rule that doesn't serve a whole lot of purpose but I've gotten used to it in college and you can tell if he's up there more than half a second it's gonna get called, especially when it's a wide open breakaway with no one around.

[niveklaen]

I worried there for a moment at the start of the game when K pulled the starters that he might lead them off the court, but then I remembered he wasn't roy

[SMO]

Mason 4-4 from the line! Way to go!!!

Andre the Giant!!!

Go Duke!!!

Aside from the score, Mason's 4-4 was the most promising development!

[Devilsfan]

I hope not! Austin's quick trigger and miss of a wide open look with less than 2 mins left then his foul I was wondering.... How could he want him in the game for Quinn?

[loldevilz]

Except for the beginning, we didn't look rattled at all today. Definitely was definitely a step forward. Its interesting that Coach K is going with Curry, Dawkins, Rivers to close out the game once again. I think we'll see that lineup moving forward more.

[anon]

I worried there for a moment at the start of the game when K pulled the starters that he might lead them off the court, but then I remembered he wasn't roy

After all, Clemson does have a tradition of storming the court after losses.

[jipops]

After we got through the first 5 minutes, the defense really turned it on. We saw a much better defense tonight than what we've seen the last several games. Also the ball movement was very nice and crisp. We were able to get it down low much quicker while our big guys were in good position in the paint. Turnovers are still a problem and the team assist count is low. But the latter is misleading because the ball moved around quite well tonight as were guys who were without the ball.

Still, that ratio does need to improve but it was nice to see us make a step forward on defense.

[Devilsfan]

I loved when the unc announcer, Hubert said if Mason ( he meant Miles but he's not that sharp) hit Tanner with an elbow, Tanner would still be down.

[weezie]

Now we're talking!

And we even manged to overcome the Karl Hess factor.

[NYBri]

Slow start. Best part was they hung tough and closed it out. Tip out by Miles was play of the game, IMHO.

Dre. He bailed us more than once and kept it at 10 for a good 7 minutes.

Good win.

[biscuit30]

I loved when the unc announcer, Hubert said if Mason ( he meant Miles but he's not that sharp) hit Tanner with an elbow, Tanner would still be down.

What about when he said the Tarholes are ther best team in the conference. This only after a day when they got beat by 33. It would have been okay if he added Duke along with comment.

[Bluedevil114]

We've seen that winning road ACC games certainly won't be easy this year. I love that we managed to close out the Tigers.

I get the new elbow rules, and I get how Hess could have thought Miles elbowed Tanner Smith, but they went to the video for goodness sake. Why have the video if they can't reverse what they surely must have seen was a bad call?

-c

The first two angles you really could not tell one way or the other and Hess was behind the play in real speed. The last angle they showed on TV was clear that it was a flop. On a small TV and the wrong angles probably confirmed the call for Hess. If he had the last angle he probably just calls it a foul and not a flagrant.

[jipops]

How could he want him in the game for Quinn?

Because at this stage Austin's defense is far ahead of Quinn's and there have been rumblings that Austin is also a pretty good scorer. He may have made a freshman error, but you do have to like that he had enough confidence to take it.

[Bluedevil114]

After we got through the first 5 minutes, the defense really turned it on. We saw a much better defense tonight than what we've seen the last several games. Also the ball movement was very nice and crisp. We were able to get it down low much quicker while our big guys were in good position in the paint. Turnovers are still a problem and the team assist count is low. But the latter is misleading because the ball moved around quite well tonight as were guys who were without the ball.

Still, that ratio does need to improve but it was nice to see us make a step forward on defense.

After the first five minutes you mean. The team got pulled off the floor because of defense then the second team only slightly played better on defense. Great coaching by K to get them to wake up.

[Saratoga2]

Except for the beginning, we didn't look rattled at all today. Definitely was definitely a step forward. Its interesting that Coach K is going with Curry, Dawkins, Rivers to close out the game once again. I think we'll see that lineup moving forward more.

To me I would prefer a PG in the game to close it out. We just have too many issues with TO's and ill advised quick shots at the end of the game. Perhaps he feels that group has some superiority defensively, but a good PG maybe cuts the mistakes down.

[Newton_14]

Miles has been great for several games in a row now. He's not stuffing the stat sheet (except for rebounds), but he's quietly effective on both ends. The team is just better with him out there, as mind-boggling as that idea seemed at one point in time.

Andre was amazing tonight. Once he got his shot, he was lights-out. I hope this gives him his confidence back. He needs it. When he's making his shots, he seems to play better on the other end of the floor, or at least play harder on that end, which is desperately needed on this team.

Agree. Well said pumpkin. Miles is starting to bring it game in and game out and has won the confidence of the staff. Regarding the elbow/flop, had Carl Hess properly called the rake on Miles arm on the play, there would have never been an "almost elbow" to begin with. They made it a point of emphasis a couple of years ago to protect the rebounder in that situation by blowing a quick whistle if guys are getting harassed. The real point was to prevent the reactionary elbow. I did like Hubert's comments on the play including the statement that "if Miles really got him with that elbow, Tanner Smith was still be laying on the floor". Would not mind seeing a rule where the flopper gets a tech in that situation as well. Other than that play though, I thought the game was called consistently.

Props to Andre for another strong game. Duke is much better when Andre plays well. We just look like a better team when both he and Miles play well and are on the floor together. I wish both would start, with Ryan as a 6th man type, and one of Quinn, Seth or Austin off the bench. I thought the 2nd half starting unit looked good out there.

Props to Mason for going 4 for 4 from the line. Anyone else noticing he shoots it better on the road than in Cameron? May need a memo to the home crowd to generate noise when Mase is at the line like some suggested in another thread.

Very big win. To come out of Litte John with a victory when other teams including UNC (HA HA) and FSU are struggling to win any games on the road. Our guys are getting it done and putting themselves in a really good position.

The tech on Andre was a good call, but I can live with a little extra excitement and passion given it did not impact the outcome and he played great otherwise.

One final thought, and this has irritated me to no end the past few years. Hubert Davis was all over it when he stated that if Clemson and other ACC teams would bring the same passion and energy in all games that they do when the jersey reads Duke or UNC, they all would win several more games each year.

[Bob Green]

That's probably the easiest call he had to make all night. That's a T 10 out of 10 times.

Seriously, I would think out of all the fanbases, Duke's would have the ability to look at the officiating with at least a modicum of objectivity. The in-game thread seems to indicate the opposite, however.

Why don't the refs call it on Henson? He obnoxiously hangs on 9 out of 10 dunks.

[arnie]

Agree. Well said pumpkin. Miles is starting to bring it game in and game out and has won the confidence of the staff. Regarding the elbow/flop, had Carl Hess properly called the rake on Miles arm on the play, there would have never been an "almost elbow" to begin with. They made it a point of emphasis a couple of years ago to protect the rebounder in that situation by blowing a quick whistle if guys are getting harassed. The real point was to prevent the reactionary elbow. I did like Hubert's comments on the play including the statement that "if Miles really got him with that elbow, Tanner Smith was still be laying on the floor". Would not mind seeing a rule where the flopper gets a tech in that situation as well. Other than that play though, I thought the game was called consistently.

Props to Andre for another strong game. Duke is much better when Andre plays well. We just look like a better team when both he and Miles play well and are on the floor together. I wish both would start, with Ryan as a 6th man type, and one of Quinn, Seth or Austin off the bench. I thought the 2nd half starting unit looked good out there.

Props to Mason for going 4 for 4 from the line. Anyone else noticing he shoots it better on the road than in Cameron? May need a memo to the home crowd to generate noise when Mase is at the line like some suggested in another thread.

Very big win. To come out of Litte John with a victory when other teams including UNC (HA HA) and FSU are struggling to win any games on the road. Our guys are getting it done and putting themselves in a really good position.

The tech on Andre was a good call, but I can live with a little extra excitement and passion given it did not impact the outcome and he played great otherwise.

One final thought, and this has irritated me to no end the past few years. Hubert Davis was all over it when he stated that if Clemson and other ACC teams would bring the same passion and energy in all games that they do when the jersey reads Duke or UNC, they all would win several more games each year.

I really enjoy Hubert calling the games - he seems very fair and when he sees an obvious bad call; he doesn't cover for the refs. Great game for Dawk and Quinn - I don't really care who starts among the 5 guards as they all seem to play a lot.

[feldspar]

Why don't the refs call it on Henson? He obnoxiously hangs on 9 out of 10 dunks.

I will eat my hat if you can find a clip of John Henson hanging on the rim and pulling himself up on a breakaway dunk with no defender within 10 feet of him.

That is what is a T 10 out of 10 times, not just hanging on the rim.

[Kimist]

Why don't the refs call it on Henson? He obnoxiously hangs on 9 out of 10 dunks.

Sadly, the answer is intuitively obvious......

[Bluedog]

My thoughts on this game:

The good:
1.) After Clemson got off to a hot start, we fought back relatively quickly and got back in the game. Some teams would collapse under the pressure on the road and not tighten up on the intensity, but after the starters got yanked and the subs went in, both units started to show what this Duke team is really capably of. Of course, the inverse of this is that we didn't start the game with enough intensity and were seriously outhustled and outrebounded at the onset. That can't happen on the road, but at least we responded.
2.) Miles has been played really well the last few games. He's shown some nice post moves, but more impressive to me, is that I honestly think he's been our best big from a physicality / fight for rebound perspective. He isn't playing soft and is also showing confidence and aggressiveness on the offensive end, including running the floor well and some nice finishes. If Miles continues to play like this, he could easily take over Kelly for the starting spot, who, in my opinion, has been a bit soft the last few games although Kelly does provide a nice stretch four. So, it probably would depend on the opponent, but I like what I've seen out of Miles.
3.) Dre. I mean, clearly MOTM. Despite the T, kept his composure and hit huge shots and FTs down the stretch. Yes, his handle could improve and it'd be nice if he added another dimension to his game besides being a spot up shooter, but he played solid D, hit nice shots, and had good movement without the ball, which is key to his success. If he gets in JJ-like shape and runs circles a lot, he'll get a lot of open looks (although I realize our offense isn't designed around Dawk like it was for Redick with all the screens). But having Andre be a reliable contributor has been really nice to see, as it seems like in earlier games he's been basically invisible on the court.
4.) Mason's free throws. 4-4?! Awesome. If he could make them at a decent clip, obviously it'll help this team tremendously and will also give him easier looks as teams are playing tough physical D on him since they're not afraid of the foul call since putting him to the line isn't that bad, so playing extra aggressive to not let him have the easy bunny is especially smart. Mason needs to finish at the rim more often though; there were a couple of layins that rimmed out that he needs to have go through the hoop. But, I though, Mason overall had a solid, but not spectacular game. Only 4 rebounds, though. Miles had 7.
5.) Cook running the show. Quinn had a great game in my opinion and really gives his teammates opportunities to score by penetrating and also has shown the ability to hit the outside jumper. I really like Quinn and we have a good point guard for the future. I'm not really sure why he didn't play at the end of the game and we had Curry running the point as it seemed like we were more successful with Quinn in there. Cook has definitely improved his D and you can tell his decision making is improving every game.
6.) Defense, especially at the 3 point line and in the second half. Overall, we held Clemson to 33% and 24% from 3. This Duke team has been defensively not so great, so it was nice to see what I saw as a solid effort at the defensive end (the first two minutes notwithstanding).

The bad:
1.) Austin's sloppiness with the ball / decision making. Austin has obviously been great for a freshmen, so I'm not completely down on him. But he's turning the ball over too much and sometimes has his decision made up if he's going to shoot or not before he drives instead of looking at what the defense is giving him and then adjusting to it. He did have a couple of nice finishes and we as fans and Coach K, I'm sure, want him to stay aggressive as he is probably the best guy to create his own shot off the dribble, but the turnovers (especially when they're out on the perimeter which lead to easy transition points) and the decision making (the early 3 near the end of the game when we needed to run clock), need some improvement. I think we were spoiled with Kyrie as a freshman, and obviously these guys need some slack. Austin is a talent, but can be frustrating to watch at times. We need him to be more careful to not turn it over and also have better decisionmaking if we want to go far in March - but obviously, it's tough because you don't want him to stop being aggressive with the ball so some turnovers are to be anticipated.
2.) The lack of intensity at the start. Can't get outrebounded like that and just outworked in all facets of the game. Tough ACC game on the road and need to have fire in the belly at all times or else we're going to be knocked back.
3.) Kelly's end game dribbling. Maybe it's just me, but I also am uncomfortable when I see Kelly dribbling the ball up or killing time by passing it back and forth with Curry near the halfcourt line. He turned it over at least once and it was nearly stolen another time. When they try to trap him, he attempts to throw it over the shorter defenders, which usually works, but always makes me uneasy as it seems like he can't easily get out of the trap. He needs to fake the high pass, get the defender to jump, and then do the easy bounce pass. I know it's nice to have Kelly in there in late game situations since he can knock down free throws, but in my opinion, Kelly is NOT at the McRoberts level of being able to dribble the basketball for a guy of his height. It seems like Coach K likes a forward and guard passing it back and forth near the end of the game, though, so I guess he's the best of our bigs.

Overall, we showed resiliency and get a tough road ACC win, so I'll take it. Even though Clemson has not played very well this year. We played well for most of the game with some lapses, but clearly this team is improving while at the same time, nowhere near a final product and there's a higher ceiling. Hopefully, we'll continue to work and finetune the personnel and get better and better. The ACC is definitely down this year, but I have a feeling that we're going to have a lot of close games. It seems like we haven't been able to really blow teams out this year.

Nice win for our guys. Go Duke!

[Chard]

I like what I saw from Andre. I hope he goes on a tear for the rest of the season. Two good games in a row in ACC action for him.

At the end of the game Coach K likes having an experienced line up which is why we see so little of Cook. It shouldn't surprise.

[Newton_14]

I will eat my hat if you can find a clip of John Henson hanging on the rim and pulling himself up on a breakaway dunk with no defender within 10 feet of him.

That is what is a T 10 out of 10 times, not just hanging on the rim.

Agree with you 100% regarding the call tonight on Andre, but also must admit I have seen several baseline dunks from Sticks where he hangs and pulls up with no one under him, and it doesn't get called. Not sure why it doesn't get called at least once in a while. But hey, if they get torched by 33, he can hang on all his dunks!:)

[ChillinDuke]

It was only one game, but I liked the Quinn-Seth-Andre back court when it was out there.

And to be clear, I'm not enjoying Austin's play. Too predictable, too forced, and not seeing consistent improvement in these areas. He's a fantastic talent with a bright future. I'm rooting for him. But I wouldn't be opposed to him coming off the bench.

Nice win today. Brownell seems like a good coach.

Go Duke!

- Chillin

[Duvall]

I will eat my hat if you can find a clip of John Henson hanging on the rim and pulling himself up on a breakaway dunk with no defender within 10 feet of him.

That is what is a T 10 out of 10 times, not just hanging on the rim.

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know.

[jipops]

Anyone else notice what K said to Andre right after he got T'd up? It was very easy to read his lips and it was typical K. No, no cursing... just "next play". He knew Andre knew it was dumb, but it was close-out time. Andre needed to be thinking about playing defense on the other end. If K were to ride on Andre about that T then there probably wouldn't have been that critical made 3 at the end. It's those little things that can be so huge.

[rsvman]

Aside from the score, Mason's 4-4 was the most promising development!

I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but he had one previous game where he shot free throws very well. I can't remember which game it was, but I think he went 5 for 6. The very next game he missed his first 8 in a row.


Jus' sayin.'

[Bob Green]

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know.

Thank you! Feldpar needs to start eating his hat.

[feldspar]

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know.

Where's the ketchup?

[jipops]

It was only one game, but I liked the Quinn-Seth-Andre back court when it was out there.

And to be clear, I'm not enjoying Austin's play. Too predictable, too forced, and not seeing consistent improvement in these areas. He's a fantastic talent with a bright future. I'm rooting for him. But I wouldn't be opposed to him coming off the bench.

Nice win today. Brownell seems like a good coach.

Go Duke!

- Chillin

It was one bad game from a freshman who is the leading scorer of a team that is now 15-2. He's the best creator we have. He's not going to be on the bench and it would be a poor decision to put him there.

[arnie]

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know.

Great find! Looks exactly like Dawkin's dunk tonite - don't want to upset Feldspar too much, but Mason is about to catch Gumby at the line too (43% to 45%)

[MChambers]

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know.
Excellent use of YouTube.

I also remember the dunk where he landed on his rear end in the NCAA tournament. Still makes me laugh.

[Class of '94]

This team still has things to iron out but the good news is that they are clearly improving and they got the road win against Clemson. Moreover, we stand alone at the top of the ACC!

I still can't believe Hubert said that Carolina was clearly the best team in the ACC; and that Duke was still searching for a playmaker. He then went on to talk about other ACC teams' deficiencies. I think it's clear that Duke has settled into the good PG rotation between Quinn, Tyler and Seth; and Quinn is only going to get better. And while Carolina is still a very talented team, I don't think anyone can say that they are "clearly" the best team in the ACC as this point. Everybody in the ACC has things to work on; but I like where Duke is positioned right now in the standings. It will be interesting when the national polls come out tomorrow to see where Duke is ranked in relation to UNC and the other teams ranked higher than Duke that lost this week.

[Bluedevil114]

I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but he had one previous game where he shot free throws very well. I can't remember which game it was, but I think he went 5 for 6. The very next game he missed his first 8 in a row.


Jus' sayin.'

Against Kansas he shot free throws well. Not sure the final stats but he was the reason we won that game and of course the two huge threes by Thornton. Mason made some huge free throws late in that game.

[Kfanarmy]

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know. Anyone find that clip of feldspar eating his hat...can't find it anywhere!

[wilko]

This was a very good game.
Love the BLUE UNI's! Patience and sticking to the script dug us our of a hole and got us a cushion that we never relinquished -Tho Clemson made a gallant effort to write their own ending. Dre was clearly our go to man when we needed a bucket. He did not disappoint. Good for him I hope he can keep it up. Quinn had some very nice moments. I hate to say it, but there were times when Curry looked a bit out of control but he got a couple of seemingly ill advised shots to go down. So good for him (and us!)

Quirky observations
Miles didn't miss a dunk for the 2nd straight game.

Mason was 100% from the line. Just out of curiosity... and this is for the stat-crunchers... What is his conversion % on a FT IF the basket is MADE for a 3pt play on the season? It was high tonight! I wonder if its really as simple as him getting the initial shot to go down for that confidence spike at the line.

Rivers is hitting the Fr wall. Had a flat couple of games. When he splits defenders he is being jammed and bumped either causing a turnover or some equally poor decision. I'm sure he'll get it together and we'll be better for it.

MG got off the bench and brought some energy. He would NOT relinquish the ball on principle. I like that!

Good road win to keep building on..

[ChrisP]

I know I am biased as they come, but I didn't think what Andre did was all that bad. I'll admit, I missed it live as I was peeking at the Giants-Packers game, but I did see the replay and it honestly looked to me like he hung on the rim to keep from falling. He had a lot of forward momentum and I think that if he'd let go immediately, he'd have ended up on his back. I know another poster mentioned that he also yelled as he did it and I couldn't tell that from the replay.

In any case, I was really happy to see Andre have such a solid, complete game. I've been a little concerned about his play lately but maybe this game can spur him on to play at a consistently high level. Clearly, he's capable.

[Duke76]

i thought overall we played well.....Andre was great with his composure
and fearlessness taking the shots but I do notice that his
game defensively would be so much better if could find his man when the a
shot went up and just simply boxed out

I don't think our coaches have that high on their list,,,kinda like the slide step to stay in front
of your man on defense

[ACCBBallFan]

Dre shot well. However, several Duke players had a much better +/-:

Duke Clemson +/- Duke

54 (40) 14 Mason Plumlee, F
66 (54) 12 Seth Curry, G

32 (24) 8 Quinn Cook, G
46 (39) 7 Austin Rivers, G
40 (35) 5 Miles Plumlee, F

56 (54) 2 Andre Dawkins, G

21 (22) (1) Tyler Thornton, G
46 (48) (2) Ryan Kelly, F

2 (7) (5) Josh Hairston, F
2 (7) (5) Michael Gbinije, G-F

365 (330) 35
73 (66) 7


There was a pretty wide spread in the effectiveness of the roatations too from -7 to +7:

Min Duke Opp. +/-

6.6 13 14 (1) Austin-Seth-Ryan-Mason-Dre *3

6.5 10 11 (1) Austin-Seth-Ryan-Mason-Quinn *3

5.4 14 7 7 Seth-Mason-Dre-Miles-Quinn *2

4.1 2 7 (5) Dre-Miles-Tyler-Josh-Mike

4.0 11 4 7 Seth-Mason-Dre-Miles-Tyler

3.2 7 6 1 Austin-Seth-Ryan-Dre-Miles

2.5 2 2 0 Austin-Ryan-Dre-Miles-Quinn

2.4 4 0 4 Austin-Seth-Ryan-Miles-Quinn *2

2.1 3 3 0 Austin-Ryan-Mason-Dre-Tyler

1.8 0 2 -2 Seth-Ryan-Dre-Miles-Quinn

0.9 0 7 (7) Seth-Ryan-Dre-Miles-Tyler *2

0.5 3 1 2 Austin-Seth-Ryan-Mason-Tyler

0.3 0 0 0 Seth-Ryan-Mason-Dre-Tyler

0.0 2 0 2 Austin-Seth-Ryan-Dre-Tyler

0.0 2 2 0 Austin-Seth-Ryan-Dre-Quinn

40.0 73 66 7 Game totals

Even though they did not excel in this game, Austin, Tyler and Ryan contnue to lead the +/- since I started tracking it in the Davidson game, though Seth and Miles are closing in om Ryan for third:

Sum 14 Duke +/- since Davidson game

141 Austin Rivers, G

105 Tyler Thornton, G

92 Ryan Kelly, F

88 Seth Curry, G
85 Miles Plumlee, F

78 Mason Plumlee, F
71 Quinn Cook, G

51 Andre Dawkins, G
50 Josh Hairston, F

12 Michael Gbinije, G-F

[WiJoe]

Love the BLUE UNI's!

Burn the black unis.

[Chris Randolph]

Bad start, credit Clemson with some of that. Good to see the guys battle back and take control of the game. Clemson made a few spurts in the 2nd half but we always had the answer, that can be tough to do on the road but we found a way. Kudos to Andre, Miles and Quinn

[roywhite]

Karl Hess....ugh.

Was switching back and forth and using the recorder to watch our game and Giants/Packers. It may have been Karl Hess's cousin on the field in Green Bay; the ref did not have a good night with a phantom roughing the passer call against the Giants (after Manning had been hit borderline late a few times with no call) and a reviewed fumble/no fumble call that he got wrong even after looking at the monitor. Of course, Karl can look at the monitor too and still get it wrong.

sorry for the ref rant....very pleased with the Devils' win and especially the play of Andre and team Plumlee.

[gus]

Where's the ketchup?

You could always go with this look:
2278

Personally, I'm not sure I could eat that much fruit in one sitting, so I'd probably opt for this:

2277

[magjayran]

Henson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-89f7Mj_CIw&feature=youtu.be&t=28s).

Maybe the rules are different at sea, I don't know.

No fair. Henson's clearly not strong enough pull himself all the way up.

For the record I don't think either play should be a tech.

[hustleplays]

i thought overall we played well.....Andre was great with his composure
and fearlessness taking the shots but I do notice that his
game defensively would be so much better if could find his man when the a
shot went up and just simply boxed out

I don't think our coaches have that high on their list,,,kinda like the slide step to stay in front
of your man on defense

I agree, but I see that we don't box out well as a team. With our height advantage in the paint, we should own it far more than we do. Too many trailers get the put back. Boxing out is so basic. Let's try it!

[Newton_14]

I know I am biased as they come, but I didn't think what Andre did was all that bad. I'll admit, I missed it live as I was peeking at the Giants-Packers game, but I did see the replay and it honestly looked to me like he hung on the rim to keep from falling. He had a lot of forward momentum and I think that if he'd let go immediately, he'd have ended up on his back. I know another poster mentioned that he also yelled as he did it and I couldn't tell that from the replay.

In any case, I was really happy to see Andre have such a solid, complete game. I've been a little concerned about his play lately but maybe this game can spur him on to play at a consistently high level. Clearly, he's capable.

Nah, sorry, but he clearly pulled up and kicked his legs in the air. Easy call. It wasn't a case of momentum putting him in danger of a bad fall or something. In the end it did not hurt so no biggie..

[mapei]

I think that hanging could be called 10 times out of 10, but really refs hardly ever make that call anymore. Nor should they, IMO. The penalty is out of proportion to the offense. So, while I think it was correctly called under the rules, it goes unpenalized in a lot of the games I watch.

The call on Miles was just ridiculous. I'm sure there were lots of iffy calls that went our way, too - it just seemed like the close ones were not going our way in that stretch near the end.

[magjayran]

Nah, sorry, but he clearly pulled up and kicked his legs in the air. Easy call. It wasn't a case of momentum putting him in danger of a bad fall or something. In the end it did not hurt so no biggie..

I disagree. I've seen players take some nasty spills after getting up that high on a dunk and I would much rather see a player be safe and hold on for a second than pull a Bogut and break a wrist. I'd also like to see the powers that be pull that stick out and let the guys have a bit of fun as long as they aren't directly taunting anyone. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

[Kimist]

I know I am biased as they come, but I didn't think what Andre did was all that bad. I'll admit, I missed it live as I was peeking at the Giants-Packers game, but I did see the replay and it honestly looked to me like he hung on the rim to keep from falling. He had a lot of forward momentum and I think that if he'd let go immediately, he'd have ended up on his back. I know another poster mentioned that he also yelled as he did it and I couldn't tell that from the replay.

In any case, I was really happy to see Andre have such a solid, complete game. I've been a little concerned about his play lately but maybe this game can spur him on to play at a consistently high level. Clearly, he's capable.

I agree it was a close call. An unbiased person could likely say he did have some serious forward momentum. OTOH, if he did some unnecessary "verbalizing" that might not have helped his overall cause.

In any case, Andre and Coach K both handled the matter/mistake(?) well.

The link of Gumby doing basically the same thing (more?) was quite entertaining.

The flagrant "air foul" bothered me a lot more....:rolleyes:

k

[Newton_14]

I disagree. I've seen players take some nasty spills after getting up that high on a dunk and I would much rather see a player be safe and hold on for a second than pull a Bogut and break a wrist. I'd also like to see the powers that be pull that stick out and let the guys have a bit of fun as long as they aren't directly taunting anyone. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I don't like the rule either. I see nothing at all wrong with what Andre did there. I just think that per the rule the Technical was called correctly. None of the Duke coaches on the bench appeared to complain, not that I saw anyway. But agree, let the kids have fun as long as it's not taunting the opponent..

Edit" Forgot to add, that Andre apologized to the ref as well, so he knew he took it a tad too far there.. (Again per the rule...which stinks)

[Aditya]

What about when he said the Tarholes are ther best team in the conference. This only after a day when they got beat by 33. It would have been okay if he added Duke along with comment.

My theory is as long as you price in anti-Duke/pro-UNC expectations for Hubert Davis, he is entertaining. Also, he never said "Tebow", which is miraculous in this day and age.

[roywhite]

Boxscore Duke 73 Clemson 66 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205362151)

Both Jennings and Booker played fairly well; Booker is not as good as his brother, but plenty strong, and Jennings has a nice touch; that 10 or 12 footer off the glass is pretty.
Thank you, Andre Dawkins.

[PSurprise]

I thought Andre's T was a borderline call, but had it been against us, I would have been screaming for a T. The call that was just ridiculous was Miles' elbow. I really thought that after the timeout, they were going to award the ball to us since Miles didn't even hit the guy. That flop was worse than soccer. If I'm not mistaken, they called just a regular foul, and then went back to look at the play and called the flagrant. Wha?!?!? "Well, we made a bad call, let's go ahead and screw this up even more by calling a flagrant, sound good? Okay."

[gep]

... And to be clear, I'm not enjoying Austin's play. Too predictable, too forced, and not seeing consistent improvement in these areas. He's a fantastic talent with a bright future. I'm rooting for him. But I wouldn't be opposed to him coming off the bench...
- Chillin

This is what I thought throughout *this* game. Seemed one-dimensional.


... Rivers is hitting the Fr wall. Had a flat couple of games. When he splits defenders he is being jammed and bumped either causing a turnover or some equally poor decision. I'm sure he'll get it together and we'll be better for it...

I didn't read about "freshman wall" recently. Could this be it?


i thought overall we played well.....Andre was great with his composure
and fearlessness taking the shots but I do notice that his
game defensively would be so much better if could find his man when the a
shot went up and just simply boxed out

I don't think our coaches have that high on their list,,,kinda like the slide step to stay in front
of your man on defense


I agree, but I see that we don't box out well as a team. With our height advantage in the paint, we should own it far more than we do. Too many trailers get the put back. Boxing out is so basic. Let's try it!

I think the bolded part is related to "boxing out". As posted above, isn't "boxing out" a basic, fundamental move in basketball? (note... I never played organized basketball, so take this comment with a grain of salt). And, my recollection is that Zoubs and Lance both looked to box-out as a first instinct:cool:

[mcdukie]

I agree with the person who said that if every team in the league played every opponent like they had Duke or UNC on their jersey it would be a different league. I watched Ga. Tech play Maryland and Tech couldn't hit anything. When we played them Rice and the other guard couldn't miss.

[Kedsy]

To me I would prefer a PG in the game to close it out. We just have too many issues with TO's and ill advised quick shots at the end of the game. Perhaps he feels that group has some superiority defensively, but a good PG maybe cuts the mistakes down.

In the last four minutes of tonight's game, we had exactly one (1) turnover. How many mistakes would a "good PG" cut down?

[cptnflash]

It was only one game, but I liked the Quinn-Seth-Andre back court when it was out there.

And to be clear, I'm not enjoying Austin's play. Too predictable, too forced, and not seeing consistent improvement in these areas. He's a fantastic talent with a bright future. I'm rooting for him. But I wouldn't be opposed to him coming off the bench.

Nice win today. Brownell seems like a good coach.

Go Duke!

- Chillin

I totally agree. We definitely need to have someone on the court at all times that can break a defender down and create for himself or others, but if Quinn can fill that role, I'd be fine with Austin seeing a lot more pine time. He's been one of our least efficient offensive players all year, even before tonight.

[cptnflash]

My theory is as long as you price in anti-Duke/pro-UNC expectations for Hubert Davis, he is entertaining. Also, he never said "Tebow", which is miraculous in this day and age.

I think Hubert is great. He's articulate, funny, knowledgeable, and fair. What's not to like? And I don't detect any anti-Duke bias in him at all, which I find amazing. I couldn't call a UNC game anywhere near as objectively as he does for us.

[Kedsy]

But, I though, Mason overall had a solid, but not spectacular game. Only 4 rebounds, though. Miles had 7.

Mason had 7 rebounds. Miles had 14.


Overall, we held Clemson to 33% and 24% from 3.

And we held them to 50% from the free throw line!


Austin has obviously been great for a freshmen, so I'm not completely down on him. But he's turning the ball over too much...

He only had two turnovers for the entire game. Maybe your expectations are a tad high?


Kelly's end game dribbling. Maybe it's just me, but I also am uncomfortable when I see Kelly dribbling the ball up or killing time by passing it back and forth with Curry near the halfcourt line. He turned it over at least once and it was nearly stolen another time.

Ryan turned it over twice in the game, but the last one was just before the eight minute timeout, so I wouldn't call that "end game."

[MCFinARL]

And we held them to 50% from the free throw line!





Such a good strategy! How can we gameplan to do that every game?

[Bluedog]

Mason had 7 rebounds. Miles had 14.



And we held them to 50% from the free throw line!



He only had two turnovers for the entire game. Maybe your expectations are a tad high?



Ryan turned it over twice in the game, but the last one was just before the eight minute timeout, so I wouldn't call that "end game."

Sorry, clearly the box score I was looking at at the time was all wrong! My apologies. Well, Miles still had significantly more rebounds than Mason. I still personally don't think Ryan is great at breaking the trap - do you? I know you want a tall guy to help out a la McRoberts, but McBob had a much better handle than Ryan. There was another time within the last few minutes that the ball was knocked away from Ryan and we were fortunate to gain control in the backcourt or it may have been that Clemson knocked it out of bounds. Ryan had a fine game, though. I'm not meaning to bash him or anything, I just don't see that as a major strength of his. Obviously, reasonable minds can differ. And it's certainly nice to have Ryan in there in end games situations since we know he can hit free throws (although they didn't go down for him against UVa the other night.) And, yeah, I thought our defense this game was better than it's been most of the year. Do you disagree (based on your free throw defense comment)?

[elvis14]

I hope Tanner Smith is OK after that viciously flagrant elbow. Perhaps we should take up a collection and buy him a few get well cards.

[wk2109]

Later in the second half, it seemed like Austin was in a score-at-any-cost mindset and had absolutely no intention to pass the ball. Though I must admit that I was a little surprised that his ill-advised 3 didn't go in -- I feel like any time he takes a relatively important 3 (when Duke is in a drought or needs a big bucket), he makes it.

3-0 conference record with 2 road wins. That's some good stuff right there.

[mo.st.dukie]

Later in the second half, it seemed like Austin was in a score-at-any-cost mindset and had absolutely no intention to pass the ball. Though I must admit that I was a little surprised that his ill-advised 3 didn't go in -- I feel like any time he takes a relatively important 3 (when Duke is in a drought or needs a big bucket), he makes it.



He had 4 points on 7 shots. How is that a score-at-any-cost mindset? If anything he took too few shots seeing as how his role on the team is being the go-to scorer who can create his own shots. Seth and Ryan both took more shots than Austin.

[Kedsy]

Sorry, clearly the box score I was looking at at the time was all wrong! My apologies. Well, Miles still had significantly more rebounds than Mason. I still personally don't think Ryan is great at breaking the trap - do you? I know you want a tall guy to help out a la McRoberts, but McBob had a much better handle than Ryan. There was another time within the last few minutes that the ball was knocked away from Ryan and we were fortunate to gain control in the backcourt or it may have been that Clemson knocked it out of bounds. Ryan had a fine game, though. I'm not meaning to bash him or anything, I just don't see that as a major strength of his. Obviously, reasonable minds can differ. And it's certainly nice to have Ryan in there in end games situations since we know he can hit free throws (although they didn't go down for him against UVa the other night.) And, yeah, I thought our defense this game was better than it's been most of the year. Do you disagree (based on your free throw defense comment)?

I thought our defensive effort was better than it has been in many games. I also think Clemson is sort of offensively challenged, so I'm not sure how much we could tell. For a big man, I like Ryan's handle. I think in the past couple games he has looked down at the ball he was dribbling at inopportune times, but overall I'm OK with the strategy of having him touch the ball during the end game.

As far as Austin goes, a lot of his turnovers seem to be live ball, lead-to-fast-break turnovers (mostly him getting stripped at the top of the key), which I admit is aggravating, but I don't think he turns it over an inordinate amount for a freshman who handles the ball as much as he does.

Overall, I was very pleased with tonight's performance, especially the way we absorbed Clemson's body blow to start the game and still came out comfortably on top.

I wasn't trying to overly criticize your post, and apologize if you thought I was. Just trying to point out a few places where I thought the facts didn't entirely match your observations (and the free throw line was mostly a joke).

[sporthenry]

I understand the rule about hanging on the rim and it probably was the correct call by the books but the problem is the rule is bad. While I agree that Henson does it without anyone calling, I also think they have to hang on the rim so they don't go falling on their backs. Yes, they don't have to do the pull up but I also think that makes it a bit easier to bring their momentum back. Perhaps Andre will learn to just throw it down and not hang at all but the refs need to be cognizant of plays like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcGUIWRpppw

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j87KEovOAWQ

[DBFAN]

What about when he said the Tarholes are ther best team in the conference. This only after a day when they got beat by 33. It would have been okay if he added Duke along with comment.

You misheard him, Hubert said that UNC was CLEARLY the best team in the ACC...geez

[wk2109]

He had 4 points on 7 shots. How is that a score-at-any-cost mindset? If anything he took too few shots seeing as how his role on the team is being the go-to scorer who can create his own shots. Seth and Ryan both took more shots than Austin.

I didn't say he had that mindset the entire game -- only for a certain stretch. Maybe my perspective was colored by the fact that he seemed to drive to the bucket right after any time the announcers pointed out he was scoreless or had only 2 or 4 points. I thought he had a bunch of drives where he just put his head down and went to the hoop obviously wanting to score.

And again, re: Seth's and Ryan's shot attempts, I wasn't talking about the entire game. Also, I'd prefer Seth and Ryan shooting more than Austin if they're shooting open shots within the offense as opposed to Austin recklessly driving to the hoop. Not that I'm saying that's all Austin did or that all of Seth's and Ryan's shots were open and within the offense, but citing total shot attempts doesn't really mean anything without knowing the context of the attempts.

[stixof96]

Get these 2 hitting on all cylinders and somebody better look out.....if dawkins is hot i would rather have him shooting the ball than anybody in the country....if Miles and Austin are at 100% with dawkins hot, dyke will be very hard to beat by anyone....Miles needs to realize just how good he is for this team right now......a lot better than he apparently thinks.....he really played well tonight i thought.......he's a man, no question about that.....Austin will get better and better each game........kelly too.......lot of talent here......

[snowdenscold]

If I saw the stat correctly, they showed that in the beginning of the game, 8 different Clemson players had scored... and this was when they were only at 18 points! If that's true, it's pretty amazing.

Also, I'm also surprised Clemson hit 10 out of their 20 FT's because I could only remember them making about 2-3 all game - seemed everyone was a miss. I guess some things don't change with a new coach? Hasn't Clemson been historically bad at FT's the past few years now?

[DUKIE V(A)]

I know I am biased as they come, but I didn't think what Andre did was all that bad. I'll admit, I missed it live as I was peeking at the Giants-Packers game, but I did see the replay and it honestly looked to me like he hung on the rim to keep from falling. He had a lot of forward momentum and I think that if he'd let go immediately, he'd have ended up on his back. I know another poster mentioned that he also yelled as he did it and I couldn't tell that from the replay.

This was my take as well...I thought Andre perhaps got in a little too close to the rim which caused his body to begin to move into parallel position to the ground. It seemed that he held on to the rim to "right" himself to avoid landing on his back. I think Hubert implied as much.

[DUKIE V(A)]

I think that hanging could be called 10 times out of 10, but really refs hardly ever make that call anymore. Nor should they, IMO. The penalty is out of proportion to the offense. So, while I think it was correctly called under the rules, it goes unpenalized in a lot of the games I watch.

The call on Miles was just ridiculous. I'm sure there were lots of iffy calls that went our way, too - it just seemed like the close ones were not going our way in that stretch near the end.

In terms of the reviewing tape on elbows or "non-elbows" in this case... since they are stopping the game and taking the time to review the play anyway, why not give officials the power to overturn bad calls (and perhaps assess penalties for faking).

That said, I can see how the official behind the play, missed the call in real time. It looked bad from behind the play, and Tanner Smith really sold it.

On replay, did the officials get all the looks we did? Once they go to review, are they able to call anything short of a Flagrant Foul 1?

[DUKIE V(A)]

Sorry, clearly the box score I was looking at at the time was all wrong! My apologies. Well, Miles still had significantly more rebounds than Mason. I still personally don't think Ryan is great at breaking the trap - do you? I know you want a tall guy to help out a la McRoberts, but McBob had a much better handle than Ryan. There was another time within the last few minutes that the ball was knocked away from Ryan and we were fortunate to gain control in the backcourt or it may have been that Clemson knocked it out of bounds. Ryan had a fine game, though. I'm not meaning to bash him or anything, I just don't see that as a major strength of his. Obviously, reasonable minds can differ. And it's certainly nice to have Ryan in there in end games situations since we know he can hit free throws (although they didn't go down for him against UVa the other night.) And, yeah, I thought our defense this game was better than it's been most of the year. Do you disagree (based on your free throw defense comment)?

Boy were we spoiled when he had Scheyer, Nolan, and Singler in these closer roles the last two years. (I have always felt that the most underappreciated facet of Singler's game was his ability to pass through, over, and around pressure defense. Man he was good.) These three never seemed to have an issue turning the ball over and often either made their free throws or finished with some type of dagger at the end of the shot clock.

Seth and Ryan are learning and improving in these roles. They certainly have the brains and free throw shooting ability to excel at these roles. It's not easy to have the right amount of patience, timing, and confidence in these end of game situations. Seth and Ryan were not perfect by any means (my blood pressure was raised a bit in the last couple minutes), but I can see what the coaching staff is thinking using these guys in this role.

[DUKIE V(A)]

1. Miles continues to play outstanding basketball on both ends of the floor.

2. Great to see Andre playing quality defense and being more aggressive on offense (and in general). The run out dunk seemed to really get him going. Seth is doing a GREAT job of finding Andre when he is open.

3. I am not as down on Austin as some others (although the late three point shot with 21 seconds on the shot clock was not his best decision). I thought he adjusted to the game and stopped "forcing" things that weren't there. Austin is an aggressive player -- if we want him to take it to the cup and score, get to the line, or dish we are going to have to accept some turnovers. His defense is getting stronger by the game, and he continues to make key plays including two critical shots in the lane last night.

4. Quinn continues to improve...and the team is getting valuable minutes from a lot of guys.

5. As someone else pointed out, I also LOVED when Gbinije refused to relinquish the ball after a jump ball in the first half. It was as if he communicated to his teammates and Clemson Nation -- "Sorry, but this (game) is ours!"

[jjasper0729]

He had 4 points on 7 shots. How is that a score-at-any-cost mindset? If anything he took too few shots seeing as how his role on the team is being the go-to scorer who can create his own shots. Seth and Ryan both took more shots than Austin.

I think maybe the comment is more about when he had the ball and took a shot, it wasn't necessarily in the flow of the offense. His jumpers were contest and quick in the shot clock and on his drives it didn't look like he had his head up to dump the ball off when the help slid over. There was one drive they showed the replay of that if he had had his head up he could have dropped the ball off to miles for an uncontested dunk. Also one of his lay ups was a prayer that he kind of threw up backwards (the second I believe) after contact in the lane.

It seems like he's feeling rushed and internal pressure to score points when if he'd settle into the offense the points will come with passes. We seem to stand around when he gets the ball and end up watching the isolation game. Also, I don't know about a freshman wall but it seems as if opposing players know to stay at home on the head fake and he's not getting by that first man as easily. I was noticing in the virginia game that every time he would drive without fail he did the quick head fake/shake-and-bake move and it didn't really fool his defender. Maybe integrate. True shot fake to get the man in the air and blow by that way so it's not quite as predictable

[Matches]

I was pretty pleased with everything except the first 5-6 minutes. Defense was not great but tightened up significantly as the game went on. We still need to be tougher on the boards, but the horses are there to pull that off. Hopefully Dawkins uses this game as a springboard for the rest of the season. I really love Miles' play recently, too - he's much stronger with the ball and aggressive but in a smart way. Seems much more under control than he was earlier this year without sacrificing aggressiveness.

[60's Devil]

Austin's game will come around. He's just not as ready for prime time as Kyrie was. As for the contributor who called for more pine time for Austin: That would be a huge mistake. First, high level recruits, and lord knows we need some, don't need to see him on the bench. Second: We don't want him to develop an attitude problem and we certainly don't need Doc Rivers making negative comments. I am really surprised that Andre didn't transfer with as much pine time as he had........I know he needs better defense. A player of Austin's potential and reputation will not put up with it, nor can he afford to. Admittedly he does not look like a one and done at this stage.

[dukeballboy88]

Great road win in a hostile environment. Little John is always a tough place to play and get a win. Clemson just beat FSU at Little John by 20. Anytime you win on the road in the ACC regardless of if you think the league is down, its still a great accomplishment. Who is next????

I love the balance on offense and I can tell our d is improving. This team could be special.

[PADukeMom]

Really, really proud of Miles. Hopefully we have the Dre back that we know and love. While Mason did hit all of his free throws I was happy that K took him out towards the end of the game.
I am sorry, some of you will get down on me, I am just not falling in love with Austin. I know he is leading the team in scoring but maybe it is the Kyrie affect.
Great road win in a tough place to win.

[cruxer]

In terms of the reviewing tape on elbows or "non-elbows" in this case... since they are stopping the game and taking the time to review the play anyway, why not give officials the power to overturn bad calls (and perhaps assess penalties for faking).

That said, I can see how the official behind the play, missed the call in real time. It looked bad from behind the play, and Tanner Smith really sold it.

On replay, did the officials get all the looks we did? Once they go to review, are they able to call anything short of a Flagrant Foul 1?


The Charlotte Observer recap (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/01/15/2930770/andre-dawkins-five-3-pointers.html) of the game was the only one that I found that even mentioned the horrendous call on Miles (imagine the attention if the roles were reversed). Apparently Tanner Smith even told the officials he wasn't hit and they still doubled down on the call after video review! I initially thought that the officials couldn't, by rule, reverse the initial foul call after video review, but I'm starting to think they were just too proud to do so.

-c

PS: Are college flagrants cumulative like they are in the NBA? If so, Duke should definitely have the league review that call and have it revised down to a normal foul.

[Matches]

Austin's game will come around. He's just not as ready for prime time as Kyrie was. As for the contributor who called for more pine time for Austin: That would be a huge mistake. First, high level recruits, and lord knows we need some, don't need to see him on the bench. Second: We don't want him to develop an attitude problem and we certainly don't need Doc Rivers making negative comments. I am really surprised that Andre didn't transfer with as much pine time as he had........I know he needs better defense. A player of Austin's potential and reputation will not put up with it, nor can he afford to. Admittedly he does not look like a one and done at this stage.

I don't think K will ever make decisions about PT based on things like this. If he thinks Austin should sit, Austin will sit.

With that said, the best thing IMO for Austin is to play his way through his current struggles. Putting him on the bench would be counterproductive. Dude remains our leading scorer, we're not going to just bench him because he's had a few bad games.

[chrishoke]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/16/1781653/observations.html

"Clemson's Tanner Smith, who was involved in the play, said Plumlee didn't catch him with an elbow.
"I told the ref I didn't get hit," Smith said. "My face is fine. But I don't know what the rule is. They have different rules for flagrant fouls."

[diveonthefloor]

I missed the game due to family obligation. Thought I could watch replay on espn3 but it is not posted as of Monday morning. Any thoughts?

[davekay1971]

I was very pleased with the game yesterday. After coming out slow against a motivated team, our guys did a great job of ramping up their intensity, something that has been a problem at times this season. We're starting to see some good things develop, and the next 7 weeks will be very interesting in the development of the team.

Some very good things:
The inside game - Miles has finally found consistency and is a huge asset for us now. Mason continues to play well, and even had a good day at the stripe. Between the Plumlees, we've got an interior game that is very solid.

Cook - getting good PT, having some up and down moments and up and down games, but chronologically he's about at late November/early December of his freshman year, and coming along nicely. I think he'll be a very steady, productive point guard by post-season play.

Nice to see you again, Dre! - As was pointed out earlier, back-to-back solid games from Dre, with the Clemson game being a heck of a lot better than just solid. When Dre is good, we're a much better team. We need him to maintain that consistency. If he does, we're a potential top 5 team. He's that important to us.

AR - yeah, I know the stat line, watched the game, and agree with some of the critique, but I'd ask those that are down on him to be more patient. Austin is having a great freshman year, but in the context of his hype and the Kyrie's performance last season, it doesn't feel like a great year. He has just had his first two away ACC games, which are about as intense and competitive as the world of college basketball gets. He's still struggling at times to figure out how to get his shot, how to put his game into the context of the team offense, and that's ok. He's still got time to get it figured out, and with the coaching he is getting and his internal drive, I suspect he'll get there.

Two big keys going forward are Seth and RK. Seth seems to struggle to score when he's the primary ball handler, and RK just kind of disappears on offense sometimes. We need them to be consistent guys that can steady the team in tough games for the team to be as successful as it can possibly be.

[devildeac]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/01/16/1781653/observations.html

"Clemson's Tanner Smith, who was involved in the play, said Plumlee didn't catch him with an elbow.
"I told the ref I didn't get hit," Smith said. "My face is fine. But I don't know what the rule is. They have different rules for flagrant fouls."
At least he didn't break his nose in the course of blocking a shot and get a 1 game suspension for it. (grrr....)

(Not implying that he should either. Just don't want to be misinterpreted.)

[Kedsy]

First, high level recruits, and lord knows we need some...

Are you suggesting we haven't been getting high level recruits in the past?


First, high level recruits... don't need to see him on the bench. Second: We don't want him to develop an attitude problem and we certainly don't need Doc Rivers making negative comments.

Are you suggesting playing time decisions should be made based on the potential for bad press?


I am really surprised that Andre didn't transfer with as much pine time as he had.

Andre's minutes:

Freshman year: 12.6 mpg
Sophomore year: 21.0 mpg
Junior year (so far): 24.4 mpg

How many minutes did you expect him to get without warranting a transfer?

[Kedsy]

The inside game - Miles has finally found consistency and is a huge asset for us now.

I don't mean to single you out, because many posters have made this comment in the post-Clemson thread, but I don't understand why people are saying stuff like this. Miles's rebounding was spectacular against Clemson, and his defense was strong. But his rebounding and defense have been strong most of the season. It's not close to a new development. A lot of posters seem to be suggesting that he showed us something different on offense against Clemson, but what I saw from Miles was three offensive rebound-putbacks and no other scoring. And he's been doing that since his freshman year.


Seth seems to struggle to score when he's the primary ball handler...

Did you mean Seth seems to struggle to score when he's not the primary ball handler? Because that sounds closer to the truth to me.

[SupaDave]

Sorry but they have two Duke threads that are hilarious.

Here's a gem:


Final: Duke. 73 Clemson 66

If UNC had of played at Clemson tonight, it would have been:

Clemson 85 UNC 65

Andre Young would of had AT LEAST 30 points...

and...


Duke always wants it more. Wish our boys did.

[moonpie23]

Now we're talking!

And we even manged to overcome the Karl Hess factor.

i'm just wondering........WHY do the unc fans think Karl is a dukie lover and a unc hater when we feel the opposite???

[FerryFor50]

i'm just wondering........WHY do the unc fans think Karl is a dukie lover and a unc hater when we feel the opposite???

Probably because he's just an all-around bad ref.

[Bluedog]

i'm just wondering........WHY do the unc fans think Karl is a dukie lover and a unc hater when we feel the opposite???


Probably because he's just an all-around bad ref.

Yes, the one thing Duke and UNC fans can agree on - we both hate Karl Hess. Unfortunately for our fanbases, Duke and North Carolina are tied for #1 in the nation in how many games Hess has reffed for them at 104 games apiece. That is, 8.4% of the games he officiates, Duke is on the court. Same with UNC. For some reason, he always gets assigned to us. Blech.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/karl-hess/teams

[DukieInBrasil]

by the Transitive Property of College Basketball: we beat Clemson by 7, Clemson beat FSU by 20, FSU beat UNC by 33. Therefore, Duke will beat UNC by 60. Now that's some math i can get behind!!!

[60's Devil]

Are you suggesting we haven't been getting high level recruits in the past?



Are you suggesting playing time decisions should be made based on the potential for bad press?



Andre's minutes:

Freshman year: 12.6 mpg
Sophomore year: 21.0 mpg
Junior year (so far): 24.4 mpg

How many minutes did you expect him to get without warranting a transfer?

I suppose the fact that we are 7th in the ACC and 27th nationally for 2012 recruiting would suggest we need some high level recruits and seeing the #1 2011 recruit on the bench probably will not act as a magnet.

[Saratoga2]

In the last four minutes of tonight's game, we had exactly one (1) turnover. How many mistakes would a "good PG" cut down?

Went back to game tracker to check the last 4 minutes and you are correct, we had one turnover and it was on Seth. My concern is that in the UVa game and now at Clemson, coach K is going away from our two PGs and one of our weakest situations has been the diminishing leads at the end of game, often accompanied by sloppy ball handling and bad decision making. Our PGs should be the best remedy for that, but I don't see Seth as strong as the primary ball handler.

[CoachJ10]

i thought overall we played well.....Andre was great with his composure
and fearlessness taking the shots but I do notice that his
game defensively would be so much better if could find his man when the a
shot went up and just simply boxed out

I don't think our coaches have that high on their list,,,kinda like the slide step to stay in front
of your man on defense

Very good observation. He is not alone amongst our guards who don't seem to make it a habit to box out. There may be things higher on the list to worry about...but this one does seem like a habit that should be easy to change.

[Wildcat]

We are definitely a three-point army. When our shots are off; we are practically doomed. That's what bothers me about this team. This will probably be my last post; as i feel my honesty, affinity for intellectual and stimulating dialogue is unwelcomed by the mods. The last thing Duke needs is more bad perceptions within the larger community. I've tried to be supportive, conformative and respectful; but i will have to search for a community that is open to honest, respectful and authentic commentary on all things, sports and Duke athletics. I do pray God's blessing for each and every person who contributes to this commmunity of discussion. God Bless, and Happy MLK Jr. Day!!!

[Kedsy]

I suppose the fact that we are 7th in the ACC and 27th nationally for 2012 recruiting would suggest we need some high level recruits and seeing the #1 2011 recruit on the bench probably will not act as a magnet.

Well, if you count Alex Murphy (who was supposed to be in the 2012 class but came early) we'd be a lot higher than that, and if you don't count Alex, the ranking is pretty much based on the fact that we so far only have one recruit for 2012. So I don't think it suggests anything at all.

According to RSCI, we had the #2 recruiting class in 2011 and we've had top three recruiting classes nationally in four of the last seven years (with the other three years coming in 8th, 9th, and 11th nationally). Plus we had the #1 class in the country in 2002, 1999, and 1997. So, we've been recruiting at an incredibly high level for years now and we're in the mix for the top recruits for 2012, 2013, and 2014. But more than that, I can't imagine seeing Austin benched for a couple of games (which personally I do *not* think would be a good move, but that's beside the point) would sway any of the top recruits we're seeking, one way or the other.

In the end, considering how well and consistently Coach K has recruited over the years, I just think it's way off base to say something like "lord knows we need some high level recruits."

[Kedsy]

We are definitely a three-point army. When our shots are off; we are practically doomed.

I guess the problem is your rhetoric often doesn't sound like "honesty, affinity for intellectual and stimulating dialogue" to me. Nor does it sound consistent with the facts. Here is our three-point percentage in selected games within the past five weeks:

Clemson: 34.8%
Virginia: 25.0%
Georgia Tech: 27.3%
Washington: 29.4%
Colorado State: 33.3%

In which of those games were we "practically doomed"?

By the way, we shot 42.9% against Temple, so the inverse isn't true, either.

[UrinalCake]

We are definitely a three-point army. When our shots are off; we are practically doomed.

I don't agree with this at all. We were 8-23 from three (35%) and 44% from the field overall. Against Virginia we shot 25% (5-20) and against GT we were 27% (6-22). So in total we are 19-65 (29%) in three ACC games, all of which are wins, two of them on the road. The whole "Duke only shoots three pointers" belief just isn't true this year and hasn't been for a while now. In fact, this year's team is probably the least dependent on the three of any I can think of in recent memory (haven't done the stats to back it up, but that's just my gut feeling).

[DukeBlueHeart4]

I guess the problem is your rhetoric often doesn't sound like "honesty, affinity for intellectual and stimulating dialogue" to me. Nor does it sound consistent with the facts. Here is our three-point percentage in selected games within the past five weeks:

Clemson: 34.8%
Virginia: 25.0%
Georgia Tech: 27.3%
Washington: 29.4%
Colorado State: 33.3%

In which of those games were we "practically doomed"?

By the way, we shot 42.9% against Temple, so the inverse isn't true, either.

I actually was in the process of looking up this information when you posted so thanks for saving me a little more work.

Our ability to go inside is much greater this year than it has been in recent years. Even when our three point shots are falling we can still go inside. We aren't anywhere near as a reliant (if you could say we are reliant at all) on the 3 point shot.

[kmspeaks]

I missed the game due to family obligation. Thought I could watch replay on espn3 but it is not posted as of Monday morning. Any thoughts?

This is my understanding, though the ESPN explanation is a little confusing:

There are 2 separate ESPN "channels" for watching things online- ESPN3 and Watch ESPN. ESPN3 is exclusive content that does NOT appear on TV. Watch ESPN is online access to what is being shown on TV. It's confusing because they're all located in the same place.

When you look at the schedule online there's a little channel icon next to the game. If it says ESPN3 then the game will be available for replay. If it has another channel icon beside it (ESPN, ESPNU, etc) you can watch it live, but it will not be available for replay later.

Hope this helps!

[superdave]

Went back to game tracker to check the last 4 minutes and you are correct, we had one turnover and it was on Seth. My concern is that in the UVa game and now at Clemson, coach K is going away from our two PGs and one of our weakest situations has been the diminishing leads at the end of game, often accompanied by sloppy ball handling and bad decision making. Our PGs should be the best remedy for that, but I don't see Seth as strong as the primary ball handler.

We have had a Seth/Austin/Andre backcourt for stretches of crunchtime the past two games. It is the lineup we started the season with, so it's not a stretch that we're using it. Part of the reason is we can pull the ball out and have Ryan and Seth handle it so they can be our main foul shooters when we're up and the other team needs to foul. We can also go a little bigger with Andre rather than Tyler/Quinn and we're playing four upper classmen rather than three. I like it for now and hope to see it continue to work.

[MartyClark]

I like the development of the inside game with MPII. I think that our ultimate success this year still rides on the 3 pointer. Against a good team, whether NC or in the tournament, I think the 3 pointer is the difference maker. We don't have a lot of guys who can drive. We have several guys who, at times, can really hit the 3 pointer.

[DukieInBrasil]

Well, if you count Alex Murphy (who was supposed to be in the 2012 class but came early) we'd be a lot higher than that, and if you don't count Alex, the ranking is pretty much based on the fact that we so far only have one recruit for 2012. So I don't think it suggests anything at all.

According to RSCI, we had the #2 recruiting class in 2011 and we've had top three recruiting classes nationally in four of the last seven years (with the other three years coming in 8th, 9th, and 11th nationally). Plus we had the #1 class in the country in 2002, 1999, and 1997. So, we've been recruiting at an incredibly high level for years now and we're in the mix for the top recruits for 2012, 2013, and 2014. But more than that, I can't imagine seeing Austin benched for a couple of games (which personally I do *not* think would be a good move, but that's beside the point) would sway any of the top recruits we're seeking, one way or the other.

In the end, considering how well and consistently Coach K has recruited over the years, I just think it's way off base to say something like "lord knows we need some high level recruits."

Add to this fact that MP3 is also red-shirting and so will start to play next year and would therefore be in the same theoretical graduating class as next year's recruits. So, though we only have one recruited for that class arriving next year (since one already arrived) and 2 RS candidates, it's like we already have a 2012-arriving class of 3. How highly would the class be ranked with an MP3 and AM coming out of prep school academies like Oak Hill next year but instead better still b/c they have been practicing with NCAA varsity players on a daily basis rather than high schoolers?
How can anybody not be excited by the prospect of MP3 after seeing what his brothers are doing this year? Remember how much less exciting both other MPs were as Fr vs how they were after their Fr years? Well, that's what's happening with MP3 right now, it's just that we don't have to watch all the frustrating stuff.
So, if we do land another recruit(s) for the 2012 class, we'll have 4 (or more) in that incoming class.

[feldspar]

Question for the board.

Can anyone who still has the game DVR'd go back and look and see if the official on the Miles flagrant play makes any sort of initial signal when Tanner Smith hits the deck? If so, what is the signal?

[tommy]

Question for the board.

Can anyone who still has the game DVR'd go back and look and see if the official on the Miles flagrant play makes any sort of initial signal when Tanner Smith hits the deck? If so, what is the signal?

His initial signal was just a regular foul. Raised his right arm up, pointed "going this way" for Clemson, and that was it. Then they were showing a replay of our previous offensive play where Austin hit that very difficult shot almost over his own head, and the announcers were talking about that, and when they came back to the live shot, the refs were already at the scorers table looking at the replay. Don't know how they happened to get there.

In looking at the play again and the positioning of the referee and the involved players, I can say in defense of the ref that Smith was right between the ref and Miles, so he really had no angle to see if the elbow connected or not because Smith himself was blocking his view. But isn't that what replay is for? How did they not have the angle that showed so obviously that there was minimal, if any, contact?

[lotusland]

This is my understanding, though the ESPN explanation is a little confusing:

There are 2 separate ESPN "channels" for watching things online- ESPN3 and Watch ESPN. ESPN3 is exclusive content that does NOT appear on TV. Watch ESPN is online access to what is being shown on TV. It's confusing because they're all located in the same place.

When you look at the schedule online there's a little channel icon next to the game. If it says ESPN3 then the game will be available for replay. If it has another channel icon beside it (ESPN, ESPNU, etc) you can watch it live, but it will not be available for replay later.

Hope this helps!

ESPN didnt stream the Clemson game live either. Ive never seen them not make a replay available that available live. Occasionally games are blacked live but the replay is later available but not the other way around. It's puzzling to me how they decide what games to stream but the ESPNU games seem to get neglected the most.

[superdave]

His initial signal was just a regular foul. Raised his right arm up, pointed "going this way" for Clemson, and that was it. Then they were showing a replay of our previous offensive play where Austin hit that very difficult shot almost over his own head, and the announcers were talking about that, and when they came back to the live shot, the refs were already at the scorers table looking at the replay. Don't know how they happened to get there.

In looking at the play again and the positioning of the referee and the involved players, I can say in defense of the ref that Smith was right between the ref and Miles, so he really had no angle to see if the elbow connected or not because Smith himself was blocking his view. But isn't that what replay is for? How did they not have the angle that showed so obviously that there was minimal, if any, contact?

Tanner Smith should have gotten a technical for the phantom elbow. I cannot see how the refs dont call the rake on the arm and do not rescind the flagrant. They spent 5 whole minutes reviewing it but didnt have the guts to reverse a bad call. Why exactly did it take 5 minutes to be wrong?

[UrinalCake]

ESPN didnt stream the Clemson game live either. Ive never seen them not make a replay available that available live. Occasionally games are blacked live but the replay is later available but not the other way around. It's puzzling to me how they decide what games to stream but the ESPNU games seem to get neglected the most.

km's explanation was slightly incorrect - ESPN3 is a separate service than WatchESPN but its content is a subset of events that are aired on the other stations (ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNU). Every week or so they decide which of the events they want to make available on ESPN3, I guess due to level of interest in the teams involved. Most of the Duke games have been covered by ESPN3 but this was one that was not. And yes, blacked out games are usually available for replay everywhere.

I find ESPN's service to be confusing for the average viewer. It's unfortunate that they can't make thing simpler and more easily available. For being the "Worldwide Leader" they lag behind other networks when it comes to online content.

[COYS]

km's explanation was slightly incorrect - ESPN3 is a separate service than WatchESPN but its content is a subset of events that are aired on the other stations (ESPN, ESPN2, and ESPNU). Every week or so they decide which of the events they want to make available on ESPN3, I guess due to level of interest in the teams involved. Most of the Duke games have been covered by ESPN3 but this was one that was not. And yes, blacked out games are usually available for replay everywhere.

I find ESPN's service to be confusing for the average viewer. It's unfortunate that they can't make thing simpler and more easily available. For being the "Worldwide Leader" they lag behind other networks when it comes to online content.

This is the first year that they've started limiting the ESPNu content for viewing online via ESPN3 since what was then known as ESPN360 first became available via almost all internet providers two years ago (it might even be three years ago, now). For whatever reason, they have decided to restrict some ESPNu games to the smaller subset of providers with which ESPN has exclusive deals (Time Warner Cable, Verizon Fios, etc.) or for any cable subscriber who pays for all of the various ESPN channels, including ESPNU. Last season I could watch every Duke game on ESPNU on replay at home with COMCAST, but this year, two out of the three (or maybe four) that were listed as exclusively ESPNU have not been available to me because I didn't have one of those networks. I have almost always been able to find a live stream of the game elsewhere, but in the case of the GaTech game (when I was on vacation and knew the final score by the time I got back home), I couldn't watch it live and was unable to find a replay stream (as much as I hate missing a game, I just don't have the time or the patience to wait on a torrent most of the time). However, as long as I plan to watch the game while it is actually being aired on ESPNU, I've been able to find streams online.

The way ESPN restricts it's content is very strange. As much as ESPN annoys me, I actually find that WatchESPN is a rather enjoyable experience now that they've updated their online player. I do not even bother with cable as my wife and I use NetFlix, Hulu, and other methods to keep up with our TV programs. A digital antenna picks up the main networks so we get CBS, ABC, NBC, and Fox plus some other useful channels. However, I still would have paid for cable if it weren't for ESPN3 just so I could watch Duke games. In fact, I am almost never able to watch games live, and am so used to skipping the commercials and half time that when I do watch a game life, it feels like it takes forever. That being said, ESPN makes it far more complex than it needs to be with whatever method they use to decide which games to make available on ESPN3 and which games to restrict. I appreciate the fact that ESPN needs to pry ever dollar it can out of whatever deals they have with Verizon, Time Warner, etc., but I just wish they didn't make it so confusing for the fans who use their site.

[-bdbd]

ESPN didnt stream the Clemson game live either. Ive never seen them not make a replay available that available live. Occasionally games are blacked live but the replay is later available but not the other way around. It's puzzling to me how they decide what games to stream but the ESPNU games seem to get neglected the most.

I couldn't see it up here in NoVA either. Frustrating. (My friends from other schools just laugh when I say I'm bummed that I couldn't watch one of our games on TV. HA! We're so spoiled!) :rolleyes:

From those who watched, do you get the impression that this team is continuing to progress and "find themselves" as the season progresses? Honestly, I'm looking for that "identity progress" thing as much as I am for big wins at this point of the season...

[superdave]

I couldn't see it up here in NoVA either. Frustrating. (My friends from other schools just laugh when I say I'm bummed that I couldn't watch one of our games on TV. HA! We're so spoiled!) :rolleyes:

From those who watched, do you get the impression that this team is continuing to progress and "find themselves" as the season progresses? Honestly, I'm looking for that "identity progress" thing as much as I am for big wins at this point of the season...

I think any road win in the ACC is a character building exercise. This one was important specifically because we got off to such a slow start then fought our way back into it pretty quickly. Also, Coach K seems to be managing the minutes of our 8-man rotation based on who is hot and game situations. Those are the few takeaways you might have missed, in my opinion.

[feldspar]

I cannot see how the refs dont call the rake on the arm and do not rescind the flagrant. They spent 5 whole minutes reviewing it but didnt have the guts to reverse a bad call. Why exactly did it take 5 minutes to be wrong?

It's not quite as simple as you make it out to be. According to NCAA rules, if you call a flagrant 1 and go to the monitor to review it, you can't downgrade the foul. It has nothing to do with having the "guts to reverse a bad call." Sometimes, even when officials make a mistake, they are bound by the rules and not able to correct it.

[Kedsy]

It's not quite as simple as you make it out to be. According to NCAA rules, if you call a flagrant 1 and go to the monitor to review it, you can't downgrade the foul. It has nothing to do with having the "guts to reverse a bad call." Sometimes, even when officials make a mistake, they are bound by the rules and not able to correct it.

What's the point in reviewing it on the monitor, then? They're only allowed to upgrade the call and not downgrade it? If so, that seems like a silly rule.

[feldspar]

What's the point in reviewing it on the monitor, then? They're only allowed to upgrade the call and not downgrade it? If so, that seems like a silly rule.

That's what I'm having trouble understanding from what happened during the game. By rule, you can go to the monitor if you think there was a flagrant 1 offense, but you didn't catch it and call it. Or, if you caught a flagrant 1, you can go to the monitor to determine if it was actually a flagrant 2.

Now, from what happened procedurally, it would seem that a flagrant 1 was called, then they went to the monitor to see if it was upgradable to flagrant 2. But that doesn't make that much sense from what we saw on the play. But that's the only explanation that makes the scenario make sense.

And, yes, I agree that the rule is silly. You should be allowed to amend the call after going to the monitor and realizing...well...you screwed the pooch.

[Ichabod Drain]

That's what I'm having trouble understanding from what happened during the game. By rule, you can go to the monitor if you think there was a flagrant 1 offense, but you didn't catch it and call it. Or, if you caught a flagrant 1, you can go to the monitor to determine if it was actually a flagrant 2.

Now, from what happened procedurally, it would seem that a flagrant 1 was called, then they went to the monitor to see if it was upgradable to flagrant 2. But that doesn't make that much sense from what we saw on the play. But that's the only explanation that makes the scenario make sense.

And, yes, I agree that the rule is silly. You should be allowed to amend the call after going to the monitor and realizing...well...you screwed the pooch.

If you swing your elbows above the shoulder and make contact with an oposing player, it is a flagrant 1 foul.

Miles swung his elbows above the shoulder and they called a foul for him making contact with the opposing player. If they were to not rule it a flagrant 1 they would have been saying there was no contact and therefore no foul, which they cannot do since they already called it a foul. So pretty much they were forced to call it a flagrant 1.

My guess is they went to the monitor to see if he swung his elbows above the shoulders.

[superdave]

If you swing your elbows above the shoulder and make contact with an oposing player, it is a flagrant 1 foul.

Miles swung his elbows above the shoulder and they called a foul for him making contact with the opposing player. If they were to not rule it a flagrant 1 they would have been saying there was no contact and therefore no foul, which they cannot do since they already called it a foul. So pretty much they were forced to call it a flagrant 1.

My guess is they went to the monitor to see if he swung his elbows above the shoulders.

Did they call it a regular foul or a flagrant foul before going to the monitor? Seems like they should never call a flagrant until they've gone to the monitor given the bizarre rules.

Where is Dave Cowens when you need him to run a guy over for flopping!?

[Ichabod Drain]

Did they call it a regular foul or a flagrant foul before going to the monitor? Seems like they should never call a flagrant until they've gone to the monitor given the bizarre rules.

Where is Dave Cowens when you need him to run a guy over for flopping!?

I'm pretty positive they just called it a regular foul initially, that's how i remember it and i'm pretty sure someone here confirmed it as well. I've been wrong before though.

[feldspar]

Did they call it a regular foul or a flagrant foul before going to the monitor? Seems like they should never call a flagrant until they've gone to the monitor given the bizarre rules.

Where is Dave Cowens when you need him to run a guy over for flopping!?

Well, the initial SIGNAL was a common foul. But there's no real way of knowing what was reported to the table.

[Newton_14]

I'm pretty positive they just called it a regular foul initially, that's how i remember it and i'm pretty sure someone here confirmed it as well. I've been wrong before though.

That was my take as well. I actually thought after seeing the replay myself, they were going to keep it as a regular offensive foul. I was actually surprised they upgraded it to a Flagrant 1. However, it is possible we both misread the initial call, and the called it a Flagrant 1 live, in which case they were stuck.

I am still more irritated that the ref did not call the rake of the arm to begin with. Smith clearly fouled Miles there and the ref was two feet from the play looking directly at the two players. How does an experienced ref miss that?

Feldspar, what were your thoughts on the arm rake? Opinion?

[tommy]

If you swing your elbows above the shoulder and make contact with an oposing player, it is a flagrant 1 foul.

Miles swung his elbows above the shoulder and they called a foul for him making contact with the opposing player. If they were to not rule it a flagrant 1 they would have been saying there was no contact and therefore no foul, which they cannot do since they already called it a foul. So pretty much they were forced to call it a flagrant 1.

My guess is they went to the monitor to see if he swung his elbows above the shoulders.

If that's right, and they needed to go to the monitor to see if he swung his elbows above the shoulders, then that would mean that it was NOT initially called a flagrant 1, right? Because they were not sure of one of the prerequisites for a flagrant 1. Which would make sense given the standard foul hand signal that was given.

So then when they go to the monitor and see there was little if any contact made by an elbow that was above the shoulders -- which should be irrelevant now due to there being no contact made -- then what are they supposed to do?

What they should do is rescind the foul call, but I doubt if they're allowed to do that. It just makes no sense -- they go to the monitor to determine if it's a regular fould or a flagrant, and they see that there was no foul at all, but the best they can do (and they didn't even do it in this instance) is to retain it as a regular, non-flagrant foul even though they know that it wasn't? Really dumb.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

In a way, I'm glad they called it a flagrant 1. First, it's a good reminder for Miles. And second, it did come at a crucial moment but no harm done - we won. So, we don't have to listen to everyone's whining about Duke getting all the calls. Clemson got major benefit from a flop yet we prevailed.

[wilko]

In a way, I'm glad they called it a flagrant 1. First, it's a good reminder for Miles. And second, it did come at a crucial moment but no harm done - we won. So, we don't have to listen to everyone's whining about Duke getting all the calls. Clemson got major benefit from a flop yet we prevailed.

I get that... add to that the call came on K's floor.
The home team TYPICALLY gets a pass on that kind of thing if it doesn't result in actual harm or injury.

[MChambers]

I get that... add to that the call came on K's floor.
The home team TYPICALLY gets a pass on that kind of thing if it doesn't result in actual harm or injury.

The game was at Littlejohn.

Putting that aside, I was surprised by both the technical on Andre and the elbow call on Miles because they came late in the game, while the outcome was still more or less in doubt. Referees usually don't like to make calls in those situations.

Having said that, the rules are the same for the entire 40 minutes, so they should just call them as they see them.

[Bojangles4Eva]

In a way, I'm glad they called it a flagrant 1. First, it's a good reminder for Miles. And second, it did come at a crucial moment but no harm done - we won. So, we don't have to listen to everyone's whining about Duke getting all the calls. Clemson got major benefit from a flop yet we prevailed.

Good observation. I think a lot of the "Duke gets all the calls" complaints do not come from the fact that a bad call was made, but because so often Duke is able to execute and take advantage of those brief windows for a momentum shift. When we execute after a turnover/blunder credited to a bad call, it just makes everyone remember the call rather than the ability to take advantage of that call.

[sagegrouse]

If you swing your elbows above the shoulder and make contact with an oposing player, it is a flagrant 1 foul.

Miles swung his elbows above the shoulder and they called a foul for him making contact with the opposing player. If they were to not rule it a flagrant 1 they would have been saying there was no contact and therefore no foul, which they cannot do since they already called it a foul. So pretty much they were forced to call it a flagrant 1.

My guess is they went to the monitor to see if he swung his elbows above the shoulders.


In a way, I'm glad they called it a flagrant 1. First, it's a good reminder for Miles. And second, it did come at a crucial moment but no harm done - we won. So, we don't have to listen to everyone's whining about Duke getting all the calls. Clemson got major benefit from a flop yet we prevailed.


The game was at Littlejohn.

Putting that aside, I was surprised by both the technical on Andre and the elbow call on Miles because they came late in the game, while the outcome was still more or less in doubt. Referees usually don't like to make calls in those situations.

Having said that, the rules are the same for the entire 40 minutes, so they should just call them as they see them.

Didn't one angle of the replay show that there was no contact -- just a flop? I suppose, if a foul has been called, there may be no procedure to wave it off, even based on video evidence.

sagegrouse

[wilko]

The game was at Littlejohn.

Doooohh!
I knew that... I really did.
I'll have another drink now...

[Ichabod Drain]

Didn't one angle of the replay show that there was no contact -- just a flop? I suppose, if a foul has been called, there may be no procedure to wave it off, even based on video evidence.

sagegrouse

A contact foul like that cannot be reviewed and overuled even with video evidence, the only reason they were at the monitor was to determine whether or not it was a flagrant.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Didn't one angle of the replay show that there was no contact -- just a flop? I suppose, if a foul has been called, there may be no procedure to wave it off, even based on video evidence.

sagegrouse

If you watch the replay, you will see Miles mouth the words "total flop" after they called the foul. Biased point of view to be sure but he knew there was minimal contact. The side angle showed that. i also recall hearing one of the announcers pointing out that miles was laughing at smith afterward.

[BluDvlsN1]

If you watch the replay, you will see Miles mouth the words "total flop" after they called the foul. Biased point of view to be sure but he knew there was minimal contact. The side angle showed that. i also recall hearing one of the announcers pointing out that miles was laughing at smith afterward.

Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't this when the ref's were reviewing and the floor camera crew got too close and they chased them away, with"get that thing out of here".. Or was that another play?

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm not sure that this point has been brought up, but I applaud Tanner Smith for the flop. It's a skill that, although frowned upon by some, is extremely difficult to master and does add value. And let's face it, Duke players sometimes flop and more often than not get the call, especially on charges.

Miles just got the crap-end-of-the-stick

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I am watching the Ohio State/Michigan game and wanted to share 2 things. I had memories of Tanner Smith's flop and this time the officials took control of the situation.....

1)DeShaun Thomas pulled a Tanner Smith. Evan Smotrycz picked up his dribble and was pivoting and swinging his elbows. Smotrycz's elbow entered the vicinity of Thomas' head and Thomas crumpled to the floor. The refs blew the whistle, called a foul on Smotrycz and went to the monitor to decide whether or not to turn it into a flagrant. The replay clearly showed that Smotrycz's elbow did not even touch Thomas. Teddy V went over to Thad Motta, told him they had made a mistake and dropped the initial foul call. There was no flagrant nor was there a personal foul. Michigan regained control of the ball and had a side out. We give Teddy V a lot of lip and he can be a showboat, but, at least he had the gall to admit he made a mistake and correct the error.

2)Is there any way we can trade for Aaron Craft?

[Acymetric]

I am watching the Ohio State/Michigan game and wanted to share 2 things. I had memories of Tanner Smith's flop and this time the officials took control of the situation.....

1)DeShaun Thomas pulled a Tanner Smith. Evan Smotrycz picked up his dribble and was pivoting and swinging his elbows. Smotrycz's elbow entered the vicinity of Thomas' head and Thomas crumpled to the floor. The refs blew the whistle, called a foul on Smotrycz and went to the monitor to decide whether or not to turn it into a flagrant. The replay clearly showed that Smotrycz's elbow did not even touch Thomas. Teddy V went over to Thad Motta, told him they had made a mistake and dropped the initial foul call. There was no flagrant nor was there a personal foul. Michigan regained control of the ball and had a side out. We give Teddy V a lot of lip and he can be a showboat, but, at least he had the gall to admit he made a mistake and correct the error.

2)Is there any way we can trade for Aaron Craft?

I could have sworn that earlier this season we had a similar situation and although there was no contact, the explanation was that the foul could not be rescinded after consulting the monitor even if it was shown that a foul was the wrong call. What am I missing here?

[theAlaskanBear]

I could have sworn that earlier this season we had a similar situation and although there was no contact, the explanation was that the foul could not be rescinded after consulting the monitor even if it was shown that a foul was the wrong call. What am I missing here?

I have heard announcers in a non-Duke game say that once whistled, a foul cannot be rescinded due to replay as well...would like some clarification too. A quick google search of "can a foul be rescinded in college basketball" turn up NBA flagrant and technical rescinds.

[uh_no]

I could have sworn that earlier this season we had a similar situation and although there was no contact, the explanation was that the foul could not be rescinded after consulting the monitor even if it was shown that a foul was the wrong call. What am I missing here?

I believe that is correct, but something has to be said for the ref doing the sensible thing rather than abiding by the absolute rule of law.

[Acymetric]

I believe that is correct, but something has to be said for the ref doing the sensible thing rather than abiding by the absolute rule of law.

And the shocker is that it was Ted Valentine! ;)

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I could have sworn that earlier this season we had a similar situation and although there was no contact, the explanation was that the foul could not be rescinded after consulting the monitor even if it was shown that a foul was the wrong call. What am I missing here?

Right. We did, Tanner Smith flopped when Miles swung his elbow near his head. Who gave the explanation that a foul can not be rescinded? I would guess they are wrong, since Teddy V did it today.

Here is a quick gif of the flop. http://www.lostlettermen.com/osus-deshaun-thomas-has-flop-of-year/

[Acymetric]

Right. We did, Tanner Smith flopped when Miles swung his elbow near his head. Who gave the explanation that a foul can not be rescinded? I would guess they are wrong, since Teddy V did it today.

Here is a quick gif of the flop. http://www.lostlettermen.com/osus-deshaun-thomas-has-flop-of-year/

Well I think the commentators gave that explanation...if not it was someone on the board. But if it is allowed then why wasn't it done for us with Miles?

Honestly I think the automatic tech for elbow contact above the shoulders is a pretty bad solution to something that I don't really think was that big of a problem in basketball (concussions). The offensive player has got to have the right to a certain amount of space to move, doesn't he? If a guy is so close to you that you can't move your arms without elbowing him in the face I guess I can see an argument to call that an offensive foul but don't see any reason to make it automatically a flagrant if it isn't an excessive amount of contact and force.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Well I think the commentators gave that explanation...if not it was someone on the board. But if it is allowed then why wasn't it done for us with Miles?

Going back through this thread, it seems pretty common consensus that you can not overturn a foul once it has been whistled because of video evidence, so I don't know....

Maybe, someone will weigh in who has a definitive answer on the question.

[uh_no]

Section 13 article 2d provides very specifically the things for which replay may be used in terms of fouls. They are:

1 determine if a flagrant 1 or 2 occurred when there is contact above the shoulders
2 determine if a flagrant 1 or 2 occurred during a fight

further, article 5 states
The officials shall not use such available equipment for judgment calls such
as:
a. Determine who committed a foul or whether a foul occurred.

It is against the rules.

[Indoor66]

I believe that is correct, but something has to be said for the ref doing the sensible thing rather than abiding by the absolute rule of law.

Actually, nothing can be said in favor of not abiding by the rules of the game. If we stop doing that we will have no game.

[uh_no]

Actually, nothing can be said in favor of not abiding by the rules of the game. If we stop doing that we will have no game.

I was considering appending my statement that there is a limit to this, but I remember a specific example from the NFL a few years back, when at the time whether a field goal was made or missed was unreviewable. THere was an instance (which decided the game) where one ref called no good, and the other claimed it was good. THe initial ruling was that it was no good and the ref went to the review booth where he claims he was told that the call was unreviewable, yet after that, the call was reversed to "GOOD" because, as is the official story "the one guy was more convincing"

It was a case where everyone at home and in the stadium knew it was good, and most people can gather that the booth either hinted that it was good or straight up told him....so in the end the right team won the game.

At the end of the year the rule was changed, because the rule didn't make any sense.

I believe this is a similar situation, where there will be a push for a rule change that the foul may be rescinded when refs go to the monitor to possibly asses a flagrant, and find that, in fact, no foul has occurred, since this is now (at least) the second time this year when a player has taken blatant advantage of the elbow rule by flopping