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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 61, Virginia 58, Post-Game Thread



hurleyfor3
01-12-2012, 11:06 PM
Fun game. It's the ACC, folks; lots of these will be close.

NSDukeFan
01-12-2012, 11:09 PM
Great to get the first home win over a ranked opponent this year. Hopefully, there will be at least one more.

mapei
01-12-2012, 11:09 PM
We did have a ferocious rally to catch up and take the lead, led by both Plums, Tyler, and Austin. That was the best basketball either team played, and it was enough. Otherwise, I think UVA played a little better than we did. Thank goodness their 3s didn't fall in the second half, though we certainly tried to give them multiple shots on each possession.

licc85
01-12-2012, 11:12 PM
Once again, we were outrebounded by a team with inferior size, this time by 7. They grabbed 14 offensive boards. We need to limit those second chance opportunities . . .

Saratoga2
01-12-2012, 11:12 PM
What I saw was a few good plays offensively by Duke but then close to a melt down at the end. At least they won, but only because UVa missed its shots. Two movings screens by Miles, essentially getting beat on revbounds consistently, Kelly getting turned over and then missing two foul shots, and Mason with the foul shot blues. This will not get it done against a top opponent or even a hot opponent. I didn't see the first half, but assume Quinn didn't have his best game. Be interested in what those who saw the entire game think of this effort.

Clearly we need to do a better job of rebounding to be a top team.

superdave
01-12-2012, 11:13 PM
We got the defense thing right tonight, especially in the 2nd half. Best defensive half of the season for us thus far.

We have a lot of room to grow though, specifically running the spread, playing good D on inbounds passes, making a hot opponent work on D.

As for game specific thoughts, I thought Andre had the eye of the shooter tonight and we did not feed him enough.

Good win. We protected the home court against the hottest team in the conference.

NYBri
01-12-2012, 11:14 PM
Phew.

60's Devil
01-12-2012, 11:14 PM
Another cliffhanger, but thank goodness we got a W. Kelly is handling the ball way too much. Bet he had at least 5 turnovers.

FerryFor50
01-12-2012, 11:14 PM
The good:

- feeding the post in the 2nd half
- playing with more intensity than we've seen lately
- Mike Scott scores 23, but it takes him 20 shots to do it
- forcing UVA out of their comfort zone on offense by getting a late lead

The bad:

- still sketchy on the defensive end
- inconsistent in getting the ball inside
- questionable shot selection and decision making with the game still in doubt

The ugly:

- FT shooting
- rebounding - outrebounding a much smaller team by 3 is not a positive


All in all, a good win against a good team.

FerryFor50
01-12-2012, 11:16 PM
Once again, we were outrebounded by a team with inferior size, this time by 7. They grabbed 14 offensive boards. We need to limit those second chance opportunities . . .

According to Yahoo, we outrebounded them by 3. UVA had 6 offensive boards. But still not a good showing on the glass. I miss Zoubs.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/boxscore?gid=201201120173

Papa John
01-12-2012, 11:16 PM
Once again, we were outrebounded by a team with inferior size, this time by 7. They grabbed 14 offensive boards. We need to limit those second chance opportunities . . .

Bunch of those were the result of lazy play on our part... Gotta box out the guy running down the lane to throw down a miss... Of course, if Mason could hit half his FTs, this game isn't really that close...


I think that's called a shove in the back

Actually, he was setting a screen and moved into Curry... Moving screen. I found it interesting the we were called for about 3 moving screens, yet UVa wasn't whistled for one, despite the fact that they were setting the same types of picks, moving Eslightly laterally to initiate contact with the defender, then rolling away from it. I don't have a problem with the refs calling it on Miles, as long as they call it the same way on the other end of the floor. They didn't... At all... Inconsistent officiating frustrates the heck out of me...

FerryFor50
01-12-2012, 11:17 PM
We got the defense thing right tonight, especially in the 2nd half. Best defensive half of the season for us thus far.

We have a lot of room to grow though, specifically running the spread, playing good D on inbounds passes, making a hot opponent work on D.

As for game specific thoughts, I thought Andre had the eye of the shooter tonight and we did not feed him enough.

Good win. We protected the home court against the hottest team in the conference.

They never seem to find the hot hand... too much "me" ball, it feels like.

dcar1985
01-12-2012, 11:17 PM
Glad to see Dre knock down some shots tonite....Still don't feel like the offense he provides is enough to ignore his shortcomings on D for Mike G not be at least seeing some minutes out there.

Another thing that bothered me was at the end of the game we almost got called for a 10 sec call, Dre received the ball of the inbounds and just covered up w/ no intentions of dribbling, and looked for someone to pass to....he has to improve his handle!

FerryFor50
01-12-2012, 11:18 PM
Bunch of those were the result of lazy play on our part... Gotta box out the guy running down the lane to throw down a miss... Of course, if Mason could hit half his FTs, this game isn't really that close...



Actually, he was setting a screen and moved into Curry... Moving screen. I found it interesting the we were called for about 3 moving screens, yet UVa wasn't whistled for one, despite the fact that they were setting the same types of picks, moving Eslightly laterally to initiate contact with the defender, then rolling away from it. I don't have a problem with the refs calling it on Miles, as long as they call it the same way on the other end of the floor. They didn't... At all... Inconsistent officiating frustrates the heck out of me...

More frustrating is when there is a blatant moving screen that levels a defender, especially in a game critical situation. Most refs just swallow their whistles on that stuff. To me, if it's a foul at the start of the game, it's a foul at the end, too.

ChrisP
01-12-2012, 11:20 PM
Great to get a win against a very good and well-coached UVA team but disappointing to see us "escape" at the end as they just said on Sportscenter. As someone pointed out in the in-game thread, there were a couple of moving screens by UVA that were flat out not called near the end of the game. I only mention that because the refs seemed to really be zeroing in on Miles for that very thing.

I thought it was a tale of two halves tonight with a pretty lackluster 1st followed by a much better second half characterized by much better intensity and focus. Thornton was a huge key at the beginning of the 2nd, I thought and I LOVED the way we were feeding the post. I know UVA's defense changed a bit to adjust to our solid post play, but I also thought we got complacent a bit, too and were too content to take jump shots.

Obviously, we have to get better at the line or these close "escapes" are not going to end in a win for us. Overall, I'm pleased with the effort in the second and I hope we can begin to bring that kind of intensity on a more consistent basis.

Chris Randolph
01-12-2012, 11:20 PM
Good to get the W. Great energy to take control of the game. Amazing what getting it to Mason Plumlee does for your offense (do it more please and thank you).

Most concerning for me is what seem to be mental lapses. Sometimes it comes in the form of missed assignment, poor decision making but for me the most disappointing is a lack of effort. We give up a lot rebounds because guys stand around and watch = no effort.

trinity79
01-12-2012, 11:21 PM
now it seems as though Ga. Tech might not be as awful as everyone made them out to be before and after we beat them down there. You have to say this Duke team is cutting it close, but doing okay for a team with 2 freshman guards who start and/or play major minutes. This is perhaps the most difficult Duke team in recent memory to keep in perspective. Singler and Smith, as they say, are not gonna come walking through the doors.

PumpkinFunk
01-12-2012, 11:21 PM
One big reason for why they outrebounded us is that they were able to keep Miles out on the perimeter defending his man. He has a nose for the ball, but if he's guarding a guy far from the hoop, he's got no chance to rebound on the defensive end. Their pack the paint defense is meant to limit our offensive rebounds, which it clearly did. It's a design of their system. I agree that the rebounding is a concern, but I think it'll keep improving.

We got lucky tonight. We barely outplayed them, yet we still almost blew it. We're going to have a lot of these close games all season.

NSDukeFan
01-12-2012, 11:23 PM
Great to get a win against a very good and well-coached UVA team but disappointing to see us "escape" at the end as they just said on Sportscenter. As someone pointed out in the in-game thread, there were a couple of moving screens by UVA that were flat out not called near the end of the game. I only mention that because the refs seemed to really be zeroing in on Miles for that very thing.

I thought it was a tale of two halves tonight with a pretty lackluster 1st followed by a much better second half characterized by much better intensity and focus. Thornton was a huge key at the beginning of the 2nd, I thought and I LOVED the way we were feeding the post. I know UVA's defense changed a bit to adjust to our solid post play, but I also thought we got complacent a bit, too and were too content to take jump shots.

Obviously, we have to get better at the line or these close "escapes" are not going to end in a win for us. Overall, I'm pleased with the effort in the second and I hope we can begin to bring that kind of intensity on a more consistent basis.

I would prefer to escape vs. a ranked team than not. Good solid win to hold serve at home. Room for improvement, certainly, but a win over a ranked team is nothing to be overly disappointed about.

ncexnyc
01-12-2012, 11:25 PM
Great to get a win against a very good and well-coached UVA team but disappointing to see us "escape" at the end as they just said on Sportscenter. As someone pointed out in the in-game thread, there were a couple of moving screens by UVA that were flat out not called near the end of the game. I only mention that because the refs seemed to really be zeroing in on Miles for that very thing.

I thought it was a tale of two halves tonight with a pretty lackluster 1st followed by a much better second half characterized by much better intensity and focus. Thornton was a huge key at the beginning of the 2nd, I thought and I LOVED the way we were feeding the post. I know UVA's defense changed a bit to adjust to our solid post play, but I also thought we got complacent a bit, too and were too content to take jump shots.

Obviously, we have to get better at the line or these close "escapes" are not going to end in a win for us. Overall, I'm pleased with the effort in the second and I hope we can begin to bring that kind of intensity on a more consistent basis.

Who is this Tyler guy? You're not talking about the kid nearly everyone had dead and buried are you? Not the same kid who baffled the stats freaks because they couldn't or wouldn't comprehend what intangibles were.;)

wallyman
01-12-2012, 11:27 PM
Win beats the alternative, but that's three really mediocore games in a row. Horrible execution down the stretch -- stupid fouls, missed free throws, turnovers. And then there's Mason's free throws. Ouch. We got very lucky, when Virginia couldn't buy a shot at the end, but, boy, we have a long way to go. They make a few and the tone here would be a lot different. That said, onward and upward.

superdave
01-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Win beats the alternative, but that's three really mediocore games in a row. Horrible execution down the stretch -- stupid fouls, missed free throws, turnovers. And then there's Mason's free throws. Ouch. We got very lucky, when Virginia couldn't buy a shot at the end, but, boy, we have a long way to go. They make a few and the tone here would be a lot different. That said, onward and upward.

Our defense was pretty tough tonight which is a far bigger concern than anything you mentioned above. I for one am happy with the effort vs UVA.

Bob Green
01-12-2012, 11:33 PM
I'm surprised there is little acknowledgment, in this thread, of the offensive spurt Andre Dawkins provided in this game. He hit a couple of big 3-pointers and a nice 18' footer. When we were struggling mightily on offense in the 1st half he provided a spark. I say let's give credit where credit is due.

dcar1985
01-12-2012, 11:36 PM
I'm surprised there is little acknowledgment, in this thread, of the offensive spurt Andre Dawkins provided in this game. He hit a couple of big 3-pointers and a nice 18' footer. When we were struggling mightily on offense in the 1st half he provided a spark. I say let's give credit where credit is due.

Definitely big shots....but he was getting dogged on defense, which in my eyes kind of out weighed his O

superdave
01-12-2012, 11:36 PM
I'm surprised there is little acknowledgment, in this thread, of the offensive spurt Andre Dawkins provided in this game. He hit a couple of big 3-pointers and a nice 18' footer. When we were struggling mightily on offense in the 1st half he provided a spark. I say let's give credit where credit is due.

If we'd kept feeding him, Andre would have hulked up. I'm sure of it!

roywhite
01-12-2012, 11:36 PM
Thought it was a really superb second half effort by the Devils. The defense was way better than in the first half, and several players hit key shots. Mason was a beast; he had an all-star performance, except for one area of his game, which we have all identified. Mason hit key shots in the lane, made some key defensive plays, and got rebounds.

We didn't finish well, but had enough to win a hard-fought game against a good, well-coached team.
It was a team win, and the team is coming together, not always in graceful fashion, but learning and growing.

superdave
01-12-2012, 11:37 PM
Definitely big shots....but he was getting dogged on defense, which in my eyes kind of out weighed his O

Really? I'm not sure I agree. I thought he looked fine on D, and was in for a few really good defensive stretches we had. He played well enough to earn crunch time minutes.

Dukeface88
01-12-2012, 11:40 PM
I'm not sure why everyone is so down on this game. I know it wasn't pretty to watch, but Virginia's a ranked team with excellent defense and a really slow tempo. That's pretty much a recipe for "ugly-looking game".

roywhite
01-12-2012, 11:41 PM
Official boxscore Duke 61 Virginia 58 (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205360003)

key stat IMO was 2nd half FG shooting (which reflects defensive and offensive adjustments)

UVa 10-34
Duke 14-23

hq2
01-12-2012, 11:41 PM
A win that didn't quite feel like a loss, but certainly could have been. Our 2nd half D was pretty good, but really, Virginia
executed pretty well. If some of their shots had fallen in the 2nd half, they could have won (Zeglinski missed like what, 8
3 pointers?). Against a better shooting team, our effort wouldn't have been enough. Would have helped too if Mason could
hit some free throws (the name says it all; throwin' up bricks!).

Kilby
01-12-2012, 11:42 PM
Really? I'm not sure I agree. I thought he looked fine on D, and was in for a few really good defensive stretches we had. He played well enough to earn crunch time minutes.

Dawkins got beat several times on backdoors where his man scored. It made me wonder if it was done on purpose and the big men just weren't rotating back.

dcar1985
01-12-2012, 11:44 PM
Really? I'm not sure I agree. I thought he looked fine on D, and was in for a few really good defensive stretches we had. He played well enough to earn crunch time minutes.

He got beat back door bad twice, and Harris lost him at least twice coming off screens...I think Dre was in there cause his shot was falling tonite, he definitely provided a lift...But yea he didn't look good on D to me, plus as I had mentioned already that play near the end were we almost got the 10 sec call b/c Dre received the inbounds pass and just covered up out of fear of dribbling and looked for someone to pass to really irked me....he has to find a consistent handle!

Duvall
01-12-2012, 11:44 PM
Thought it was a really superb second half effort by the Devils. The defense was way better than in the first half, and several players hit key shots. Mason was a beast; he had an all-star performance, except for one area of his game, which we have all identified. Mason hit key shots in the lane, made some key defensive plays, and got rebounds.

We didn't finish well, but had enough to win a hard-fought game against a good, well-coached team.
It was a team win, and the team is coming together, not always in graceful fashion, but learning and growing.

Agreed. I also think people are getting a bit too frustrated by the missed free throws by Curry and Kelly down the stretch. Really just a statistical fluke.

duke09hms
01-12-2012, 11:44 PM
Glad to see Dre knock down some shots tonite....Still don't feel like the offense he provides is enough to ignore his shortcomings on D for Mike G not be at least seeing some minutes out there.

Another thing that bothered me was at the end of the game we almost got called for a 10 sec call, Dre received the ball of the inbounds and just covered up w/ no intentions of dribbling, and looked for someone to pass to....he has to improve his handle!

Agree 100%. Seth barely made it across half-court after Dre passed him the ball.

Bob Green
01-12-2012, 11:45 PM
We just beat the 3rd best team in the ACC...I'm happy! :) Folks, stop and smell the roses! Conference games are suppose to be tough so a close win over Virginia should be satisfying.

elvis14
01-12-2012, 11:46 PM
I must have been watching a different game than the rest of you guys because I'm thrilled that we played the #17 ranked team in the country and came away with a good win! Sure the game wasn't perfect but we won, not them. Come ON man!

Loved the simple adjustment made at half time: make an entry pass by throwing a bounce pass away from the defender who's hanging over MP's shoulder.
Loved that Andre made significant contributions (even without the FT's he earned at the end of the game when he was poked in the face)
Nice game by Tyler. He even picked up a couple of good assists.
Miles had a great game despite fouling out on some sketchy calls
Scott was hot in the first half but we just kept at it and wore him down
UVa had a good half and we just kept at it and wore them down
Mason could hit a few more FT's ya know!
Apparently UVa is a great defensive team, Scott is a fantastic player and Bennett is a great coach. I know this because I just heard the announcers repeat it over and over again for two hours. Hey guys, that Duke team's not bad either! And they call him Dukie V!
Austin had a good game and a good percentage of the good things he did were not driving and scoring!
In the second half our guards really chased their shooters and made come clever switches at time that had them running to waiting defenders


Actually, he was setting a screen and moved into Curry... Moving screen. I found it interesting the we were called for about 3 moving screens, yet UVa wasn't whistled for one, despite the fact that they were setting the same types of picks, moving Eslightly laterally to initiate contact with the defender, then rolling away from it. I don't have a problem with the refs calling it on Miles, as long as they call it the same way on the other end of the floor. They didn't... At all... Inconsistent officiating frustrates the heck out of me...

Seemed to me that before the game the refs made a few decisions:

Call the game tight when UVa has the ball but since UVA is so good at defense let them be when Duke has the ball
Don't call anything on Scott (9 minutes left when he finally picked up a foul...I thought his jersey was going to say "Hayward " or "Hanscheater" on the back)
In the last 5 minutes of the game, leave both teams guessing about what'll be called (and if Andre gets hit in the face and then walks just don't call either and everything will be OK)
Thank Dickie V for telling the TV audience how we are great refs

wandalee
01-12-2012, 11:46 PM
These "celebrities" got to see a great game tonight.

Rep David Price, NC
Reggie Love
Gen Martin Dempsey, chairman of the joints chiefs of staff

Bob Green
01-12-2012, 11:47 PM
These "celebrities" got to see a great game tonight.

Rep David Price, NC
Reggie Love
Gen Martin Dempsey, chairman of the joints chiefs of staff

You forgot Bucky Waters. :cool:

ChrisP
01-12-2012, 11:48 PM
I would prefer to escape vs. a ranked team than not. Good solid win to hold serve at home. Room for improvement, certainly, but a win over a ranked team is nothing to be overly disappointed about.

I don't disagree. My real point was how cruddy we played at the end to close this one out after having a pretty good 2nd half, overall.

elvis14
01-12-2012, 11:49 PM
He got beat back door bad twice, and Harris lost him at least twice coming off screens...I think Dre was in there cause his shot was falling tonite, he definitely provided a lift...But yea he didn't look good on D to me, plus as I had mentioned already that play near the end were we almost got the 10 sec call b/c Dre received the inbounds pass and just covered up out of fear of dribbling and looked for someone to pass to really irked me....he has to find a consistent handle!

I didn't see it as fear of dribbling at all. To me it looked like the Duke players were assuming that UVa was going to foul. When they didn't foul (obviously a bad assumption) we were late moving the ball forward.

duke09hms
01-12-2012, 11:49 PM
I'm surprised there is little acknowledgment, in this thread, of the offensive spurt Andre Dawkins provided in this game. He hit a couple of big 3-pointers and a nice 18' footer. When we were struggling mightily on offense in the 1st half he provided a spark. I say let's give credit where credit is due.

Andre made 3-7 FGs and was consistently losing his man on defense. He should get the credit for those 3 FGs, but his poor defense may outweigh those contributions.

kcduke75
01-12-2012, 11:50 PM
What did you see/did the announcers say on TV on the two calls that did not sit well for those of us in the stands with Duke blue glasses?

They jammed one in that appeared to be completely inside the rim and Miles was called for goal tending when he hit the net while the ball appeared to me to be below the rim. Thoughts?

Does this type play ever make it to YouTube?

Thanks, KCDuke75

Bob Green
01-12-2012, 11:54 PM
Andre made 3-7 FGs and was consistently losing his man on defense. He should get the credit for those 3 FGs, but his poor defense may outweigh those contributions.

He didn't consistently lose his man. He did get beat on a couple of back door cuts, but some of those plays where you say he lost his man the fault lies with his teammates who didn't pick-up after Dawkins released his man. The nice basket Joe Harris made on a curl move is a solid example of what I'm saying.

dcar1985
01-12-2012, 11:54 PM
I didn't see it as fear of dribbling at all. To me it looked like the Duke players were assuming that UVa was going to foul. When they didn't foul (obviously a bad assumption) we were late moving the ball forward.

I'd give you that if this was a 1 time thing but since its not and its obvious Dre has little to no confidence in his handle ima say he needs to really put in some extreme work on it

dcar1985
01-12-2012, 11:57 PM
He didn't consistently lose his man. He did get beat on a couple of back door cuts, but some of those plays where you say he lost his man the fault lies with his teammates who didn't pick-up after Dawkins released his man. The nice basket Joe Harris made on a curl move is a solid example of what I'm saying.

He released his man because he was beat....Im glad he seemed to get his stroke back tonite but he was getting consistenly beat

Duvall
01-12-2012, 11:59 PM
We got lucky tonight. We barely outplayed them, yet we still almost blew it. We're going to have a lot of these close games all season.

Enh, I think Virginia got lucky in that Duke missed chances to put them away for good. And most of Duke's remaining games are against teams that are worse than Virginia, some considerably so.

Bob Green
01-12-2012, 11:59 PM
He released his man because he was beat....Im glad he seemed to get his stroke back tonite but he was getting consistenly beat

I have no problem with agreeing to disagree.

roywhite
01-13-2012, 12:01 AM
He released his man because he was beat....Im glad he seemed to get his stroke back tonite but he was getting consistenly beat

Coach K in his post-game comments raved about Dawkins' defense...."best ever since he's been at Duke".

Very complimentary of the Plumlees, especially Mason and his "verve".

duke09hms
01-13-2012, 12:01 AM
He didn't consistently lose his man.

From watching most of the games Andre has ever played for Duke and especially this season, I don't possibly understand how this has any chance to be true.

elvis14
01-13-2012, 12:01 AM
I'd give you that if this was a 1 time thing but since its not and its obvious Dre has little to no confidence in his handle ima say he needs to really put in some extreme work on it

I agree that Andre needs to do a better job when handling the ball. I just thought that the time in this game where was used a TO to keep from getting a 10 second call was more an incorrect assumption (thinking UVa would foul) than a lack of confidence. I thought Andre covered up and didn't want to give up the ball because if someone was going to be fouled he wanted to be the guy shooting FT's.

dcar1985
01-13-2012, 12:02 AM
Coach K in his post-game comments raved about Dawkins' defense...."best ever since he's been at Duke".

Very complimentary of the Plumlees, especially Mason and his "verve".

Guess I can't disagree w/ Coack K....

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-13-2012, 12:03 AM
Love Mason. Just wish someone would tell him it's a basketball - not a shotput.

Duvall
01-13-2012, 12:04 AM
From watching most of the games Andre has ever played for Duke and especially this season...

What does that have to do with anything?

duke09hms
01-13-2012, 12:06 AM
What does that have to do with anything?

His defense, lateral quickness, and overall aggressiveness could use a lot of work.

superdave
01-13-2012, 12:10 AM
Coach K in his post-game comments raved about Dawkins' defense...."best ever since he's been at Duke".

Very complimentary of the Plumlees, especially Mason and his "verve".

I agree with Coach K.

Billy Dat
01-13-2012, 12:11 AM
Enh, I think Virginia got lucky in that Duke missed chances to put them away for good.

I'm with you, Duvall. After a lackluster first half, which I felt was us getting used to UVA's style and, sadly, letting them dictate the style of the game, we came out in the second and looked awesome for the first 10 minutes. Our defense was great and our inside out game was humming. I assume they made defensive adjustments to counter the inside game, I know they started to aggressively double - but even then Mason was able to find Seth for that 3 where Seth was wide open, kind of hesitated, and then nailed it. I am not sure what else they did to make us go away from that style, but I think it's our most effective style of play. At least it's the kind I like to watch. I felt like we were dying for some ballhandling at the end what with all the turnovers, and thought we might see Cook as he is a very good foul shooter. I guess not. When Bennett seemed to go with the Hack-a-Mason with 4 minutes left, I swore he'd keep going to it and am not sure why he didn't - it worked!

It was a really balanced effort tonight and would have been more of a statement win had we executed in the last 5 minutes. Still, the UVA team really impressed me and that is a high quality win. 2-0 in the ACC.

dcar1985
01-13-2012, 12:11 AM
I agree that Andre needs to do a better job when handling the ball. I just thought that the time in this game where was used a TO to keep from getting a 10 second call was more an incorrect assumption (thinking UVa would foul) than a lack of confidence. I thought Andre covered up and didn't want to give up the ball because if someone was going to be fouled he wanted to be the guy shooting FT's.


Down 3 with 38 sec left in the game and 27 on the shot clock? I doubt it especially coming out of the timeout but its definitely possible.

Kedsy
01-13-2012, 12:35 AM
I notice our rotation was 8 today, but the 8th guy only played 12 minutes. The 6th and 7th guys played 15 and 16 minutes. Until the very end, Ryan was our best player on the floor. The two turnovers and two missed FTs may be coloring people's perceptions of how well he played tonight.

Tyler provided a great spark early in the 2nd half. I think he's at his best when playing 12 to 16 minutes (16 tonight). I don't think Quinn played poorly (although his stats weren't great), but I was happy to see the Seth/Austin/Andre perimeter getting so much burn.

Our raw offensive efficiency was 103.4 tonight, against the nation's 9th best defense, which sounds pretty good to me. Our raw defensive efficiency was 98.3, against the nation's 104th best offense, which doesn't sound so hot. However, I liked the way we recovered to seemingly play tougher D in the 2nd half.

Finally, people talk about how lucky we were that UVa missed their late shots, but I don't think it was luck or coincidence. In the last 10 minutes, we clearly sped them up beyond their comfort zone, and thus we should get some credit for the misses. In other words, they missed their shots at the end for essentially the same reason we missed our shots in the first few minutes: we forced them to play a tempo that they weren't used to (just as they forced us to play a slower tempo than we were used to in the early part of the game). We were no luckier at the end than they were in the beginning.

alteran
01-13-2012, 12:38 AM
What did you see/did the announcers say on TV on the two calls that did not sit well for those of us in the stands with Duke blue glasses?

They jammed one in that appeared to be completely inside the rim and Miles was called for goal tending when he hit the net while the ball appeared to me to be below the rim. Thoughts?

Does this type play ever make it to YouTube?

Thanks, KCDuke75

Yeah, these biased eyes saw the same thing from section 13. Several blatant UVA goaltends, and then we get called on a borderline one. And moving screens against us all night and then Miles gets called for it. Granted, we were as guilty as they were, but why did we get all the fouls?

To answer your question, the play that will make Youtube will be where Dre walked at the end after having his corneas scraped off with no whistle. The video will mysteriously start after the corneal abrasion.

I screamed myself halfway to hoarse tonight.

The one thing I'll say is that when I watch my PVR, it never looks quite as bad as when I'm there. I just can't be objective in Cameron.

But why would I want to be? :D

Kfanarmy
01-13-2012, 12:43 AM
He got beat back door bad twice, and Harris lost him at least twice coming off screens...I think Dre was in there cause his shot was falling tonite, he definitely provided a lift...But yea he didn't look good on D to me, plus as I had mentioned already that play near the end were we almost got the 10 sec call b/c Dre received the inbounds pass and just covered up out of fear of dribbling and looked for someone to pass to really irked me....he has to find a consistent handle! Give him a break...Looked to me that he thought UVA was either going to foul him or move on down the court....UVA just kinda loosely guarded him for a few seconds and he took off. Duke was across the time line when K called the TO....close but he was across the mid line.

duke09hms
01-13-2012, 12:45 AM
Give him a break...Looked to me that he thought UVA was either going to foul him or move on down the court....UVA just kinda loosely guarded him for a few seconds and he took off. Duke was across the time line when K called the TO....close but he was across the mid line.

Dre covered up then passed to Seth who had to sprint to barely cross half-court - is what happened

greybeard
01-13-2012, 01:03 AM
1. Both teams were very, very tired the last 10, maybe 7 minutes.

2. The second half, the difference was the way Duke played through Mason. They got it to him inside the defense, in a variety of spots, often on the move, often requiring exceptionable catches and he and he mentally and physically wore out and demoralized UVa's much taller center who did a great job of preventing the ball from coming inside. UVa outside defenders had to stay inside to help on Mason and Duke got some open three looks. INSIDE OUT PLAY. CREDIT K, BIG TIME! Look, it is not easy denying Duke's perimeter guys decent looks, which is what UVa did almost all the time the first half. So K went to a double low post, had some screens for Mason to role over, had guys curling from behind him forcing the big to show.

3. The UVa defenders gave Duke's outside players fits the first half but had to expend a tremendous amount of effort doing it. Curry, Rivers, Cook, Dawkins, even Tyler came off those screens hard with the ball all without it. BODY PUNCHES. They continued to throw them the second half, only this time their first, second and third option was to get it to Mason. They did and he did not disappoint. Finese, great moves (decisions and excecution), great receptions, very, very heavy lifting. Mason's heavy lifting on offense and trying to defend the insane guy on UVa left him less than he would otherwise have been on the defensive board. The quick feet positions, real explosion was not there. Who can fault him?

4. I thought that Miles played great on both ends. The second screen call was real bad (no harm no foul, he and the defender barely touched), at least one of his defensive fouls, a reach around on Scott in the post was another ticky-tack call, and even the first screen, which was an obvious step in, did not affect play. Incidently, the number of moving screens UVa made in close quarter maneuvers that weren't called (maybe they weren't seen, but there was one possession in the last few minutes on the left side of the court when there seemed to me to have been at least three. The refs seemed content to let the guys played and it was not a rough game. I don't see two or maybe three of the fouls on Miles as appropriate. Nevertheless, refs did a good job.

5. Ryan played really good D the second half, and the guards for Duke did as well. The Duke guards manned up equal to what they had been receiving from UVa the first half. I loved UVa's motion offense, that produced good looks. However, the pressure that Duke's guards put on UVas on both sides of the court was relentless, especially the second half, and I think that UVa and especially that kid Vitale was always talking about had no legs before the first half ended.

6. Duke really made Scott work in the second half, especially when they went double low with Ryan. Whether Ryan made or missed (boy, could I show him a few things that would have helped avoid those misses), Scott was working hard, close to the basket, trying to keep Ryan from going where he wanted, fighting to contest, needing to fight on the defensive boards. I think that is why we saw a lull in his game. When Miles picked up those fouls, and Mason and Ryan's legs started going, Scott became somewhat effective again but he was no longer the dangerous guy he was the first half--he did not have it as a go-to guy down the stretch.

Bottom line, Duke was forced to play UVa's game, only with UVa's exterior defenders putting so much pressure on the ball so far from the basket, and their bigs showing on screens, etc, pass penetration and one-on-one play was available to Mason, as long as they found a way to get him the ball. The big for UVa was real long and did a great job of denying Mason a passing lane in the first half. The second half Mason was on the move much more often, when he caught it, if the big came out to try to close guard, Mason either blew past or moved on the lateral bounce like a Rugby player in a scrum. He killed the guy. Give this one to K for a terrific second half offensive strategy that really worked. By the way, Duke did a reasonably good job due to some kind of adjustment a half time in impeding those little dishes to diving bigs when Mason, Ryan, or Miles tried to help. I didn't pick up what it was, and at one point K called a time out when a few of those dive plays happened again, and they seemed to stop, except on the offensive board (but see above and Mason's tired legs).

Finally, I thought that Mason and Miles were asked to and did make athletic plays (catches on offense) and that Duke ran sets they were designed to present them with passes that allowed some room to maneuver. Without that, I think Duke would have lost by 10. It kills me when the heads are so surprised that once Miles was in the flow of the game they would express surprise that the guy made an 16 footer. The guy is a ballplayer; get him involved, he'll score the ball, and he certainly has the talent to hit open 16 footers well over 50 percent of the time, in my opinion.

Two other things. I thought Ryan was the first to get really tired, and I really think that his looking to the bench so he can relay the set called by K slows the game down and is counterproductive. I would like to know from you guys who will undoubtedly watching this thing several times whether my sense is right, or those called sets resulted in scores. I would have liked rather to see Ryan in those moments, they almost always occurred when he was on the foul line, to get the ball and threaten the defense. In a similar vein, I don't like it when Mason points to someone whom he thinks the guy with the ball should throw it to. I don't mind a look with his eyes, but I'd rather see him step to the ball, let the outside player throw it up for Mason to go and get it out in front on the defender, and then Mason, with the defense listing back in towards him, making the pass to the guy who he wanted to receive the ball. A quick one-touch play that makes UVa's defense VULNERABLE--UVa in that moment is dictating nothing; rather it is entirely the other way around. Duke did have lots of plays that had that effect the second half, Ryan and Mason can and should give them more, in my view.

I liked very much that Duke looked for mid range shots and made them, I thought that the floaters hit by Curry and Rivers were spectacular, that Tyler's drive/score and wonderful pass to Miles were great plays and momentum, that Cook's MOVE was a real important STAND-THEM-UP shot when UVa didn't to get hit hard so they knew that Duke's guards were there to play. Everybody contributed. If Duke plays these guys again, I think that they win by 15.

Oh, they do need me to fly down and to work with Mason on little mini foul shots around the basket, all different kinds, with different trajectories, different spins, different placement and tension of the fingers, ditto for feet, depth of knee bend and relation to arm movement (energitically and timing), having the energy cause by the feet pushing into the ground transmit up through the spine and having the upward energy created by the left foot push resulting in the right shoulder blade's moving up and slightly out and thus automatically the lengthing of the shooting arm (if you are relaxed, your belly soft, your jaw, eyes and ribs are soft, that right shoulder will ride up and out smoothly--everything about the shot improves). The thing is that you experiment, doing the opposite of what you just tried, trying a variety of combinations (it's best if you have someone like me who can put some reason behind the sequence, to force differentiation of body parts that normally move as one, and sychronicity of parts that often work in opposition, who is both explored shooting development by similar means when I was much younger and have the benefit of my study of my man's Method--maybe one of my Hewlett boyz who are tight with K would be willing to suggest it to him (not a chance).

Championships are great, they drive everyone, I think the fans probably more than the players. These guys left it out on the floor tonight; they won. If games like this are not as good as it gets, if you think that players would give an ounce more than they gave tonight if the game for all the marbles, I think that you are missing the glory, the joy of college sport. I had a blast, and am glad that Duke won!

Swardy
01-13-2012, 01:33 AM
UVA slows everyone down and tries to get ugly low scoring wins. It didnt work today for them and we should be happy with the win. You can complain about the rebounding and Mason's Shaq impersonation from the FT line but if he even makes 50% we dont sweat out this W. UVA is a good team and we got the win!

Greg_Newton
01-13-2012, 01:44 AM
1.2. The second half, the difference was the way Duke played through Mason. They got it to him inside the defense, in a variety of spots, often on the move, often requiring exceptionable catches and he and he mentally and physically wore out and demoralized UVa's much taller center who did a great job of preventing the ball from coming inside. UVa outside defenders had to stay inside to help on Mason and Duke got some open three looks. INSIDE OUT PLAY. CREDIT K, BIG TIME! Look, it is not easy denying Duke's perimeter guys decent looks, which is what UVa did almost all the time the first half. So K went to a double low post, had some screens for Mason to role over, had guys curling from behind him forcing the big to show.

I have no idea why we've gone away from this the past few games (until the second half); since the break, we've been almost exclusively running that atrocious 4-high set that results in the bigs either a) setting screens too far from the basket, b) getting the ball 25 feet from the hoop, or c) rolling for lobs that are never there. Setting a cross screen to get Mason isolated in the post has been our most consistent offensive play, IMO, and lets him set the tone for the rest of the time. Do it early and often and the perimeter game will follow.

BTW, what was going on with our scheme on Scott? We were having our guy force him baseline and bring the other big over to double/trap, but we forgot the most important part - having the weak-side wing rotate down low to cover the helping big's man. We gave them like 3 dunks doing that.

Edouble
01-13-2012, 02:24 AM
BTW, what was going on with our scheme on Scott? We were having our guy force him baseline and bring the other big over to double/trap, but we forgot the most important part - having the weak-side wing rotate down low to cover the helping big's man. We gave them like 3 dunks doing that.

I noticed that too. Why is there no rotation? Is the man who doubles the baseline not really supposed to do that?!?! If he is supposed to, how can there be no rotation? I really don't understand that at all. How can there not be any help defense?

Overall, a great mid-January ACC game.

Olympic Fan
01-13-2012, 02:50 AM
Just a few comments. I was at the game and look forward to watching the game on my DVR to see a couple of officiating calls/non-calls that looked bad to me in person -- specifially the no-call on the Scott follow that looked like a blatant GT to me in real time and the the Mason swat that was called goal-tend -- it looked like he hit the net when the ball was well below the rim. On Miles' two illegal screens, well, the first was a blatant call. No problem with that, he extended his leg to screen the trailing defender. But I didn't see him do anything wrong or on unusual on the other.

As for Andre tonight -- I agree with what K said afterwards: BY FAR his best defensive game at Duke. Did anybody notice that Sammy Zeglinski, Virginia's top perimeter shooter, was scoreless ... 0-6 from the field? Dawkins (and Rivers) had a lot to do with that. Harris had some success against him, but he was just 5-of-11 from the floor and only got to the line four times (twice when he was fouled on a scramble after Kelly's turnover).

And I don't recall any ballhandling issues Andre had against Virginia's pressure (one assist, no turnovers). Well, there was one -- late in the game, he came down with a tough rebound in traffic and caught a finger in the eye. He was unable to get rid of the ball for several seconds as the refs let the Virginia players continue to hack at him. Duke did have to call a timeout to prevent a 10-second call. I think the one people are complaining about came a couple of posessions later, when Andre caught the ball in the corner, thought he was fouled ... then dished to Austin, who was hammered (but no foul call). He got it to Curry who raced it over the line just before the 10-second count ... and just as K called a timeout. I didn't sense Andre doing anything wrong there.

Great game by both Plumlees, especially Mason, except for his FT shooting. But we know he can't shoot free throws. What hurt worse was Curry missing a FT when he ould have put Duke up 10, then Kelly missing two FTs late. He had hit 16 straight to that point over two gmes. Those two misses really made the ending tense.

Poor defensive rebounding in the second half. Interesting that problem would crop up at a time when Duke's defense was REALLY good for the first time all year. That's often a feature of Coach K's best defensive teams -- because they play ball-you-man (instead of the more passive stay-behind-your-man), they sometimes have problems rebounding.

Frustrating that Virginia was able to impose their tempo, but when you face a team that wants to play slow, there are only two ways to speed things up -- either press them into turnovers (which Duke is not capable of doing right now) or hit enough shots to build an early lead and force them to run to catch up. Duke missed its first seven 3s and spent the first half chasing the Hoos.

Yet, even with everything, Duke scored 61 points ... that's only the second time this year that a Virginia opponent topped 58.

BTW, did this game remind anybody else -- in terms of tempo, defensive intensity and dramatic finish -- of the national title game against Butler? Now, that game was played at a higher level, but this game seemed a lot like it.

NYC Duke Fan
01-13-2012, 04:04 AM
Yes, a win against a ranked team is always good and at the end of the year when looking at the season you do not examine each game microscopically. At present though you do. This game was at home and easily could have gone into overtime.

If we played this type of game at UNC, Kentucky, Baylor or Syracuse, etc., we would get blown out....see the Ohio State Game. If we played them on a neutral court we would also lose as well if at Cameron..

Duke will have a successful season because we have the best coach who will get the most out of this team. That said, I am sure that I will get reamed for what I am going to say but I will say it anyway. This team is not a championship team. Can things change, surely, but as I see it we are not even a Final 8 team . One glaring weakness is that in a close tournament game we cannot have one of our best players on the court because he cannot make a FT, every team knows it and if by some chance he is on the court , he will be fouled incessantly. .

I am not trying to be a Debbie Downer just a Ralph Realist and that does not mean that it will not be enjoyable to watch this team play, because it will and there will be some very enjoyable moments this year I am sure.

jv001
01-13-2012, 06:58 AM
This was a good win against a good team and good coach. Virginia will give everyone their best shot this year and will win some big games. I love their coach. He has his team playing hard and physical. Duke has a very talented team, but it's going to take one of Coach K's best coaching efforts to get this team where he, the team and us fans want it to be. GoDuke!

jv001
01-13-2012, 07:06 AM
Andre made 3-7 FGs and was consistently losing his man on defense. He should get the credit for those 3 FGs, but his poor defense may outweigh those contributions.

It was good to see Andre hit some big shots in this game, but as you say he did have some bad plays on defense. He only had 1 rebound(29 mins) from the SF position and at 6'4" he was out rebounded by two shorter guards. Seth had 4 rebs and Tyler had 3 rebounds. I think Coach K is trying to get Andre's confidence back with the mins and the praise he gave him in post game comments. We need Andre to play at a high level for us to be a top 8 team. GoDuke!

DukieInBrasil
01-13-2012, 07:39 AM
The lack of leadership on this team is astounding. After the GT games, it looks like the team thought they had found it in Ryan Kelly. He tried to dispel them of that notion as best he could, with basically 3 turnovers at the end of the game.
The complete lack of attention to defensive rebounding really astounded me. I clearly remember Kelly going for a blocked shot vs a guard (who had only gotten there b/c our guards are completely incapable of containing any backcourt anywhere) and MP II turned his back for position for the reb, but completely failed to notice that there was a UVa player running down the lane, who got the rebound for a putback slam.
I think K is going to have to design a new defense for this team b/c it just can't do what he's trying to get it to do now. Curry is not doing it, Cook isn't either (due to being a Fr.?), Thornton wants to be able to but can't stay in front of anybody and Rivers seems to be capable but hasn't mastered it yet.

Saratoga2
01-13-2012, 08:02 AM
I'm with you, Duvall. After a lackluster first half, which I felt was us getting used to UVA's style and, sadly, letting them dictate the style of the game, we came out in the second and looked awesome for the first 10 minutes. Our defense was great and our inside out game was humming. I assume they made defensive adjustments to counter the inside game, I know they started to aggressively double - but even then Mason was able to find Seth for that 3 where Seth was wide open, kind of hesitated, and then nailed it. I am not sure what else they did to make us go away from that style, but I think it's our most effective style of play. At least it's the kind I like to watch. I felt like we were dying for some ballhandling at the end what with all the turnovers, and thought we might see Cook as he is a very good foul shooter. I guess not. When Bennett seemed to go with the Hack-a-Mason with 4 minutes left, I swore he'd keep going to it and am not sure why he didn't - it worked!

It was a really balanced effort tonight and would have been more of a statement win had we executed in the last 5 minutes. Still, the UVA team really impressed me and that is a high quality win. 2-0 in the ACC.

First let me say that after 16 games and the entire preseason, Mason still has a serious hitch in his free throw form and still has a flat trajectory. Why isn't he learning good form, bending knees, consistent smooth follow through, more arc. Anything would be worth trying but he seems to be stuck in Neverland. Where is the coaching?

I saw only the last 14 minutes of the game and was pleased to see some good play by Tyler providing a solid lead, but then we looked like a team without a lot of poise in the final minutes. We only had one freshman and one soph out there for those minutes, so it is hard to claim we were very young. In fact, it was Miles who had two moving screen plays, one of which stopped the clock and also which got him out of the game. I believe they were correctly called so perhaps he just didn't think.

Then I believe using Ryan as a type of point guard resulted in two turnovers. While we won the GT game largely due to Ryan's foul shooting, we do have ball handlers who are very decent foul shooters as well. Why not give the ball to Seth, Tyler or Quinn in that circumstance? We can give it back to Ryan, but not for dribbling with heavy defensive pressure on him. He has a decent handle, but has a quickness disadvantage.

What happened to our defensive rebounding fundamentals? We had size, but weren't boxing out and giving UVa multiple chances to score. If a team is shooting well against us, we are going down with that kind of effort.

Coach K liked Andre's effort defensively and there seems to be a difference of opinion on the board. I didn't see enough of that to form a strong opinion. How well did he rebound?

jv001
01-13-2012, 08:04 AM
The lack of leadership on this team is astounding. After the GT games, it looks like the team thought they had found it in Ryan Kelly. He tried to dispel them of that notion as best he could, with basically 3 turnovers at the end of the game.
The complete lack of attention to defensive rebounding really astounded me. I clearly remember Kelly going for a blocked shot vs a guard (who had only gotten there b/c our guards are completely incapable of containing any backcourt anywhere) and MP II turned his back for position for the reb, but completely failed to notice that there was a UVa player running down the lane, who got the rebound for a putback slam.
I think K is going to have to design a new defense for this team b/c it just can't do what he's trying to get it to do now. Curry is not doing it, Cook isn't either (due to being a Fr.?), Thornton wants to be able to but can't stay in front of anybody and Rivers seems to be capable but hasn't mastered it yet.

I remember this play and looked at it again(dvr) because I wanted to see who was at fault for the put back. I'm pretty sure it was Austin who failed to block out that guy. He was the one at fault imho. I saw an improvement in the 2nd half from our guards in their on the ball defense. Tyler played better defense it seemed to me. Probably the reason Quinn saw little action in the 2nd half. It will be good to see tommy's break down. GoDuke!

aro24
01-13-2012, 08:58 AM
Dawkins got beat several times on backdoors where his man scored. It made me wonder if it was done on purpose and the big men just weren't rotating back.

I played in a similar system where on defense you are told to deny the passing lanes on the wings...force your man to go backdoor. Getting beat means 2 things.....1- you didn't see ball and man -> always have to have "ball-me-man" principal. 2- the post defender didn't rotate over and help.
Go back and watch some old clips of Battier, he was great at rotating over and taking the charge....perfect place for it, the offensive man is on a run and just getting the ball and you know he wants to go to the rim for a lay-up/dunk, all you have to do as a post player is anticipate the pass, rotate over and get in position to take the charge.
Great in principle but if the rotation is late or absent, it makes for a lot of open point blank looks or and-1's.

ARO24

gumbomoop
01-13-2012, 09:27 AM
I remember this play and looked at it again(dvr) because I wanted to see who was at fault for the put back. I'm pretty sure it was Austin who failed to block out that guy.

Yep, Austin's big mistake on this one. He just watched the play. Because it was an impressive slam, it was shown a couple of times on replay. Austin was totally passive, no block out, no thinking [about how to play basketball.....].

I'm always curious as to how exactly the staff uses film to teach. The mantra "next play" makes good sense, during the game. But using film for "teachable moments" does seem essential.

Speaking of which, I am still dismayed by Miles and Mason on high, too often moving, screens. I realize there's a difference of opinion re the calls on Miles late in the second half. But IMO, Mason has a tendency to stick out his elbow and hip, and Miles has itchy feet, and thus comes close to moving on some picks.

I'll never get a chance to see how the staff tries to coach this stuff. Wish I could. UVa's screens seemed more solid, better executed by the players. Bennett's really good.

Finally, the couple of times UVa got a key O-board on missed FTs had me saying unpleasant words. Hard to claim "Duke plays every play" if they don't. I'd prefer my team be more alert and aggressive. Much more, and consistently, relentlessly.

To be fair, and accurate, Duke's D was much improved this game, so there will be good D-plays to emphasize in film sessions, too.

niveklaen
01-13-2012, 09:28 AM
The refs didn't call UVA's moving screens because we avoided the contact - no contact no foul called. Our players kept running further and further around the moving screens to avoid being run into by them. Every time Mile moved on a screen, the UVA guards, correctly, barreled into him forcing the refs to call the foul on him. By failing to run into UVA's moving screens we made them much more effective and kept them out of foul trouble.

CDu
01-13-2012, 09:32 AM
It's a crazy game when you have five different players score at least 9 points and yet you only get 61 total points.

UVa is extremely well coached and Mike Scott is one of the best players in the conference for sure. Aside from that, I thought we had the next several best players. Sprinkle Joe Harris, Jontel Evans, and Sammie Zeglinski in there somewhere, but I'd say toward the lower tier. But Bennett gets them playing defense, and gets them playing at the tempo they want to play. Just a well-structured machine that overachieves.

Scott was a tough matchup for us coming in because he's quicker than any of our bigs. It looked like the strategy was to guard him with one big and have the other waiting for him on the block. Unfortunately, that strategy got burned several times when Scott either shot over his man who was late in getting to him or he found the other big for a dunk when the weakside guard didn't protect the lane.

On the other end of the floor, I thought Ryan Kelly was fantastic in the first half, creating some second chance opportunities and hitting some big shots. And then in the second half, Mason stepped up. It's a shame he can't hit free throws, because he could/should have had a 15-18 point night otherwise. He was just a beast for a large stretch when we pulled out in front.

Nice to see Dawkins hit some shots. He was due. I had a feeling that this would be a tough challenge for Rivers because UVa really protects the lane. I thought Rivers did a nice job overall of not getting frustrated and forcing it too much. And he hit some big shots too. Cook didn't have much of a night tonight. I don't think he was up to the challenge of guarding Evans, and he wasn't creating enough offensively (though he had one really nice driving layup. Good effort from Thornton tonight. He had a couple of nice buckets and one terrific 3/4 court pass to Miles for a dunk.

Loved the two monster Plumlee dunks. That was fantastic. I jumped off my couch on both plays.

A win is a win. It wasn't pretty, but UVa tends to make the game not pretty. Just glad to keep our ACC record clean. Onward to Clemson.

roywhite
01-13-2012, 09:44 AM
Already mentioned, I believe, but this game reminded me so much of the 2010 final vs Butler. Even the score was very similar and the intensity of the game appeared to wear down both teams toward the end.

The natural reaction from both the Butler game and this game is...dang, we almost lost this; what if that guy had hit the last shot?; we missed some chances to nail this down, etc.
However, once that first reaction passes, the game can be seen in a different, more positive light about the things that worked and went well. Our play for most of the second half was very good; we made defensive adjustments, we got the ball inside and scored; we had outside shots that went down, and played with intensity against a tough opponent. Yep, it was a good win.

COYS
01-13-2012, 10:16 AM
Virginia is the #26 team in the nation according to KenPom. That's not a team we can ever take lightly. Temple is 43rd, for example. They play a style that easily frustrates opponents and they stick to their game plan no matter what. Yes, it was closer than it needed to be and no it wasn't a dominating performance, but for all the talk about how close we were to a loss, we were equally close to a double digit win. And 3 points in a game with so few possessions is worth quite a bit. Seth missed two open threes in the closing minutes that would have put the game out of reach even given Ryan's turnovers at the end of the game. Ryan rarely misses two free throws in a row. Seth missed the front end of a 1 and 1 earlier. And there were some odd officiating moments at the end. I am not saying that the officials almost cost us the game or anything, but we definitely should have had at least two more trips to the line than we actually got. Yet, the team still did enough to win and was very close to putting Virginia away.

I actually thought there were some encouraging developments in this game. First of all, we reestablished Mason in the post, where he was flat out dominant in the second half. We coulda/shoulda gone to him more, in my opinion. On a night when we only hit 25% of our threes in 20 attempts, we still shot over 50% from the field as a team. A big part of that was Mason getting us easy buckets in the post. We need him to do that, especially against tough defenses like Virginia's that try to crowd out our three point shooters. Plus, we showed flashes of what we are capable of on the defensive end of the ball when we work well as a team. Some have mentioned the ugly rotations after a baseline double team on Scott that led to some easy jams for Virginia. We also had a few of those where we rotated correctly and either forced the driving player to try a wild layup or throw the ball away to a rotating guard. It is a bit of a feast or famine defensive tactic in the sense that if we fail to rotate we give away an easy bucket, but when we do it right we can completely overwhelm the defense. We need those flashes of strong defensive play to become more consistent.

DukieInBrasil
01-13-2012, 10:17 AM
The refs didn't call UVA's moving screens because we avoided the contact - no contact no foul called. Our players kept running further and further around the moving screens to avoid being run into by them. Every time Mile moved on a screen, the UVA guards, correctly, barreled into him forcing the refs to call the foul on him. By failing to run into UVA's moving screens we made them much more effective and kept them out of foul trouble.

Well, the counter to this is that our guards do not run the defenders into the screen, they give a nice comfortable 2 ft gap between the screener and their path, so if the screener wants to feel like they are doing what they are supposed to do (set a screen) they are compelled to move the extra two feet to close the gap that our guards have created by failing to use the screen correctly. This is what creates the moving screen fouls.

greybeard
01-13-2012, 10:21 AM
I think that the timing in UVa's offense and the ball movement is impressive. Those dives for an open dunk off a fed from a baseline double came late, as the double was almost there. The cutter was rolling, I mean coming fast down the lane. The combination of the two, and not wanting to leave an open three in the corner were, I think, responsible for the catch and dunk being uncontested.

I really liked Duke's opting for inside the line jump shots, well inside the line, as a feature we rarely see. I think that part of the game makes pass penetration much easier--the ball gets to the receiver much faster and the passing lane options are more available. Great response to VA's tremendous outside pressure, runouts on the three balls.

Kelly was clearly without legs down the stretch. He is a terrific option against full court pressure of the sort UVa applied late in a close game. Had Miles not received what I think were ticky tack fouls that shouldn't have been called, Kelly would have been fresher and the turnovers we saw would never have happened. Also, the amount of energy that both teams expended was astounding. Notwithstanding the defensive pressure applied by both, I thought that both teams managed to retain their shape on offense (a soccer term used to describe defensive positioning), and that Duke's adjustments, especially second half adjustments were terrific.

Scott's offensive game is so effective, in my opinion because he catches it often inside the three line, in a spot where he will shoot it with even a lttle space. If a defender needs to stop that shot, and you are with 15 or so feet from the basket, you become much more dangerous. Credit Duke's defense the second half. Like I said, I think the defense on him and especially taking away the mid range catches or making them really contested tired him out and also took away his swagger. Great job; really unbelievable.

Dre's threes were from distance, they were delivered with ease when Duke clearly wanted to go to him, and got a cluster of what Duke loves and UVa loves to take away, and did. Dre also took it to the rim and drew a foul in a difficult circumstance. He stepped up like a pro (for real) when Duke needed it. Everyone of the Duke men made at least a few great offensive plays to score the ball against what we knew going in was an extremely good defense.

Curry was terrific on both ends (he did, however, take I think 2 very improvident early 3s). Rivers played within himself, had his "game" stymied early, and then found his way to make some terrific offensive plays. The bounce pass after Rivers got near the rim that asked for a difficult Mason catch was smashing. Rivers took his turn really hurting UVa in ways they didn't expect, and, at least it seemed to me, played smart throughout on offense, not turning it over trying to create what clearly wasn't there.

I really liked Ryan in the double low post. I thought he created several really good opportunities and caught it even more times down low which made Scott have to defend real hard. Ryan will make those shots the more he sees himself in that position during games. Great deployment by K. All the coaches had to have contributed big time in this game.

94duke
01-13-2012, 10:22 AM
These "celebrities" got to see a great game tonight.

Rep David Price, NC
Reggie Love
Gen Martin Dempsey, chairman of the joints chiefs of staff

The Monster's Out of the Cage!
Matt Christensen was there, too.

DukieInBrasil
01-13-2012, 10:24 AM
Nice to see Dawkins hit some shots. He was due. I had a feeling that this would be a tough challenge for Rivers because UVa really protects the lane. I thought Rivers did a nice job overall of not getting frustrated and forcing it too much. And he hit some big shots too. Cook didn't have much of a night tonight. I don't think he was up to the challenge of guarding Evans, and he wasn't creating enough offensively (though he had one really nice driving layup. Good effort from Thornton tonight. He had a couple of nice buckets and one terrific 3/4 court pass to Miles for a dunk.


Rivers did play well and under control for the most part. I did notice a couple of possessions where he just dribbled the ball around the perimeter for much of the 35s and ended up just launching a nearly desperation 3. He needs to attack when he's dribbling, if he's not attacking he needs to pass the ball, move to another spot and look for a different angle to attack from. Standing around dribbling ain't gonna cut it. Cook also took some bad 3s. Credit UVa's defensive scheme which makes it tough to drive, but driving ain't the only way to move the ball, it's not even the preferable way to move the ball. Our guards need to become better at ball movement through passes.
I will mos def give credit to TT for a solid game tonight, he did what Quinn could not vs UVa. His drive for a bucket was sweet and that pass to Miles was Duhonesque.

roywhite
01-13-2012, 10:24 AM
Virginia is the #26 team in the nation according to KenPom. That's not a team we can ever take lightly. Temple is 43rd, for example. They play a style that easily frustrates opponents and they stick to their game plan no matter what. Yes, it was closer than it needed to be and no it wasn't a dominating performance, but for all the talk about how close we were to a loss, we were equally close to a double digit win. And 3 points in a game with so few possessions is worth quite a bit. Seth missed two open threes in the closing minutes that would have put the game out of reach even given Ryan's turnovers at the end of the game. Ryan rarely misses two free throws in a row. Seth missed the front end of a 1 and 1 earlier. And there were some odd officiating moments at the end. I am not saying that the officials almost cost us the game or anything, but we definitely should have had at least two more trips to the line than we actually got. Yet, the team still did enough to win and was very close to putting Virginia away.

I actually thought there were some encouraging developments in this game. First of all, we reestablished Mason in the post, where he was flat out dominant in the second half. We coulda/shoulda gone to him more, in my opinion. On a night when we only hit 25% of our threes in 20 attempts, we still shot over 50% from the field as a team. A big part of that was Mason getting us easy buckets in the post. We need him to do that, especially against tough defenses like Virginia's that try to crowd out our three point shooters. Plus, we showed flashes of what we are capable of on the defensive end of the ball when we work well as a team. Some have mentioned the ugly rotations after a baseline double team on Scott that led to some easy jams for Virginia. We also had a few of those where we rotated correctly and either forced the driving player to try a wild layup or throw the ball away to a rotating guard. It is a bit of a feast or famine defensive tactic in the sense that if we fail to rotate we give away an easy bucket, but when we do it right we can completely overwhelm the defense. We need those flashes of strong defensive play to become more consistent.

Agree with your comments, though I don't think I would call Mason's field goals "easy buckets". UVa defended him as best they could. Credit goes to Mason; he has developed that hook shot, he is able to back his defender down, and he can use his left hand also. He also can blow by his defender for a layup, is terrific on the alley-oops dunks, and makes some good passes out of the post, too. Mason would probably acknowledge Wojo and his brother Miles for helping him improve down low, but he really has made big steps. Can he do it against Henson and Zeller? Interesting question, and we'll see.

Major props to Mason for his play last night and for developing his game.

camion
01-13-2012, 10:25 AM
Already mentioned, I believe, but this game reminded me so much of the 2010 final vs Butler. Even the score was very similar and the intensity of the game appeared to wear down both teams toward the end.

The natural reaction from both the Butler game and this game is...dang, we almost lost this; what if that guy had hit the last shot?; we missed some chances to nail this down, etc.
However, once that first reaction passes, the game can be seen in a different, more positive light about the things that worked and went well. Our play for most of the second half was very good; we made defensive adjustments, we got the ball inside and scored; we had outside shots that went down, and played with intensity against a tough opponent. Yep, it was a good win.

I concur.

An ugly win is the only kind you will get against Virginia. They won't let you play "pretty" basketball; you have to get down in the trenches and slug it out with them. We did that very well in the second half.

COYS
01-13-2012, 10:29 AM
Agree with your comments, though I don't think I would call Mason's field goals "easy buckets". UVa defended him as best they could. Credit goes to Mason; he has developed that hook shot, he is able to back his defender down, and he can use his left hand also. He also can blow by his defender for a layup, is terrific on the alley-oops dunks, and makes some good passes out of the post, too. Mason would probably acknowledge Wojo and his brother Miles for helping him improve down low, but he really has made big steps. Can he do it against Henson and Zeller? Interesting question, and we'll see.

Major props to Mason for his play last night and for developing his game.

I agree with you about the "easy buckets" comment and chose my words poorly. I meant easy buckets as far as the rest of the team is concerned. When all we have to do is get the ball to Mason and let him go to work, it takes a lot of pressure off of our guards. It also means that we have two players who can create their own shot in Austin and Mason. And good comment on his passes out of the post. Mason's passing is an underrated facet of his game.

BlueDevilCorvette!
01-13-2012, 10:29 AM
(IMHO) There are two things I'd like to see more in Duke basketball games....Zone defense and Silent G. Either one may be a significant remedy for our ailing defensive woes.

RockyMtDevil
01-13-2012, 10:45 AM
One thing UVA did superbly was hedging on the bigs ball screen up top. We seem to like to run Rivers off a slant ball screen up top and Sene did a great job disrupting that play, especially since it is run so far out that passing the ball to the screener doesn't do much good.

Otherwise, the adjustments at halftime to attack the rim was the offensive key to the game. We spent far to much time in the 1st half dribbling laterally and not attacking. Young guards tend to pound the ball into the ground and we suffer from that big time. I wonder if K will continue to use motion or since we are so young, we'll revert to more and more set plays until the guys get comfortable free-lancing. Our young guards tend to float in our motion offense instead of crisply using angles and screens to get open. Then, when the defense packs it in, we heave a three, ugly basketball.

It seems Rivers works well off set plays at this stage in his career. It gives him a system to work within, instead of the improvisation that motion allows. I don't think he's ready to fully exploit his skills in the motion offense, unless of course hi is simply going one-on-one and it may mean that we work on an NBA style isolation with him to create ways for him to use his dribble-drive skills more effectively. Otherwise, we really need to attack the basket better, but I'm not sure we have the playmakers to do so, save Austin.

flyingdutchdevil
01-13-2012, 10:48 AM
I agree with you about the "easy buckets" comment and chose my words poorly. I meant easy buckets as far as the rest of the team is concerned. When all we have to do is get the ball to Mason and let him go to work, it takes a lot of pressure off of our guards. It also means that we have two players who can create their own shot in Austin and Mason. And good comment on his passes out of the post. Mason's passing is an underrated facet of his game.

Completely agree about Mason. But 2-10 from the free-throw line? I know this element of his game has been addressed time and time again, but that is unacceptable. Fortunately, with thin benches and only 5 fouls, Hack-A-Mason may not always work in the opponent's favor. But if I'm the opposing coach and I have fouls to give, that is just a great strategy.

COYS
01-13-2012, 10:50 AM
One thing UVA did superbly was hedging on the bigs ball screen up top. We seem to like to run Rivers off a slant ball screen up top and Sene did a great job disrupting that play, especially since it is run so far out that passing the ball to the screener doesn't do much good.



This is a good catch. Sene and the other UVA bigs did a superb job on their hedges which made it more difficult for our perimeter players to make things happen on offense or get the pass off to a rolling big. That being said, this also makes our second half dedication to getting Mason the ball all the more impressive. UVA took away one of our strengths but we were able to compensate by going right to another. Our offense still needs a little ironing out, but I'd venture to say this is one of the most well rounded teams on offense Duke has had in a while.

DUKIE V(A)
01-13-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm surprised there is little acknowledgment, in this thread, of the offensive spurt Andre Dawkins provided in this game. He hit a couple of big 3-pointers and a nice 18' footer. When we were struggling mightily on offense in the 1st half he provided a spark. I say let's give credit where credit is due.



The team does not kick it out to him (or others) nearly enough. Great shooter. Shooting threes isn't easy and can hurt you for a variety of reasons (i.e., a closely contested three is often the first "pass" in the other team's fast break) . Shooting open threes with our shooters -- especially Dawkins and Curry -- is an excellent percentage play. I thought one of the keys to the 2010 team was their ability to consistently rebound/penetrate and hit open shooters. This team has the potential to improve greatly in these areas.

Kedsy
01-13-2012, 11:20 AM
The natural reaction from both the Butler game and this game is...dang, we almost lost this; what if that guy had hit the last shot?; we missed some chances to nail this down, etc.

Was that really your reaction to the Butler game? My reaction was... dang, we just won the national championship.

Honestly, I didn't feel that way about last night's game, either. Virginia was scrambling in the last seconds. Yeah, they could have hit one of those desperation shots, but I would have been surprised if they did, and I would have been confident heading into the overtime. Despite the score, I don't think we "almost lost" last night. So many things went wrong for us at the end, I feel the final score was misleading.


(IMHO) There are two things I'd like to see more in Duke basketball games....Zone defense and Silent G. Either one may be a significant remedy for our ailing defensive woes.

Hold your breath. ;)

Troublemaker
01-13-2012, 11:46 AM
Individuals


+----------+----------------+---------+------+------+------+------+------+
| Opponent | Player | Min:Sec | Duke | Opp | +/- | Off | Net |
+----------+----------------+---------+------+------+------+------+------+
| Virginia | Miles Plumlee | 15:28 | 25 | 17 | 8 | -5 | 13 |
| Virginia | Seth Curry | 33:14 | 55 | 48 | 7 | -4 | 11 |
| Virginia | Andre Dawkins | 29:07 | 45 | 41 | 4 | -1 | 5 |
| Virginia | Ryan Kelly | 32:01 | 49 | 49 | 0 | 3 | -3 |
| Virginia | Tyler Thornton | 15:54 | 25 | 25 | 0 | 3 | -3 |
| Virginia | Quinn Cook | 11:56 | 18 | 19 | -1 | 4 | -5 |
| Virginia | Austin Rivers | 29:49 | 40 | 41 | -1 | 4 | -5 |
| Virginia | Mason Plumlee | 32:31 | 48 | 50 | -2 | 5 | -7 |
+----------+----------------+---------+------+------+------+------+------+

Lineups


+----------+-------------------------------------+---------+------+
| Opponent | Lineup | Min:Sec | +/- |
+----------+-------------------------------------+---------+------+
| Virginia | Thornton,Curry,Dawkins,Mason,Miles | 02:49 | 5 |
| Virginia | Curry,Rivers,Dawkins,Kelly,Miles | 02:42 | 4 |
| Virginia | Thornton,Curry,Dawkins,Kelly,Miles | 01:11 | 2 |
| Virginia | Curry,Rivers,Dawkins,Mason,Miles | 02:00 | 1 |
| Virginia | Cook,Curry,Dawkins,Kelly,Mason | 01:03 | 0 |
| Virginia | Cook,Curry,Rivers,Kelly,Mason | 10:53 | -1 |
| Virginia | Curry,Rivers,Dawkins,Kelly,Mason | 07:28 | -1 |
| Virginia | Thornton,Rivers,Dawkins,Kelly,Miles | 03:36 | -1 |
| Virginia | Thornton,Curry,Dawkins,Kelly,Mason | 05:08 | -3 |
| Virginia | Thornton,Rivers,Dawkins,Mason,Miles | 03:10 | -3 |
+----------+-------------------------------------+---------+------+

DUKIE V(A)
01-13-2012, 11:48 AM
A few thoughts...

1. I do not get the criticism of Dre in this thread. He played an outstanding game and should have been fed the ball more in the second half. What does the guy have to do? He earned the minutes he played. Period.

2. Mason is an incredibly underrated player. We focus far too much on his foul shooting and not nearly enough on all the things he does well. He is a stud and one of the top handful of bigmen in the country.

3. Austin played an underrated game.

4. Miles continues to play really good basketball. He is becoming a force.

5. Thornton finds a way in the toughest games, doesn't he?

6. Looking forward to seeing Quinn's continued progression. I am really excited about him.

7. Credit the Duke defense for a lot of UVA's misses. They have some shooters and they weren't hitting for a reason. They had to work hard all night and got worn down.

8. UVA is clearly in the Top 3 of the ACC. Scott is a monster. It is difficult to beat them and beating them "pretty" is next to impossible. Nice win!

Troublemaker
01-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Coach K on the point guard rotation


"I don't think you can do just one thing with our team. We made a switch because they made a switch. They had [Jontel] Evans on Austin [Rivers], so that put Zeglinski on Seth [Curry]. Well then Seth can play the point. And that gave us the better offensive team against them than we would have had the other way ... I read something today that somebody showed me that we have an identity. I don't know, we're not looking for an identity. We're looking to be good. We're trying to win. We don't have to have a certain style of play or whatever. We want to fight and play well together. This was a heck of a game today."

Makes sense to me.

rsvman
01-13-2012, 02:04 PM
He released his man because he was beat....Im glad he seemed to get his stroke back tonite but he was getting consistenly beat

Dawkins plays a lot better defense than people give him credit for. One of his strengths is keeping the ball away from his man by fronting him; staying between the ball and his man. If you watch Dawkins play defense, and pay careful attention, you'll see that he keeps the ball away from his man a lot.

A by-product of aggressive fronting is that it leaves you more susceptible to back-door cuts. When these plays are successful, it makes you look like a horrible defender. But those back-door cuts are the flip side of a coin that has another, good side. Do you think those cuts happened by accident? They were planned by a very savvy coach who noticed, as did I, that Dawkins is actually a pretty darn good at denying his man the ball. They were designed to take advantage of it.

But there are no stats about how much help the defense received by having Dawkins's man prevented from getting the ball on many plays throughout the game.


So when you look at two back-door cuts where his man gets a lay-up you are only seeing the negative, and completely ignoring the positives of his defense.

(I've been wanting to stick up for his defense for several weeks now. I think he gets dogged on this board WAY more than he deserves.)

blue666devils
01-13-2012, 02:47 PM
Last night was close one. Down in the first half and then coming back to squeak out a win in the end. Did you see that monster dunk by Miles Plumlee off a defensive rebound. Duke has now won 44 consecutive games at home. Way to go duke!:)

MCFinARL
01-13-2012, 03:41 PM
Dawkins plays a lot better defense than people give him credit for. One of his strengths is keeping the ball away from his man by fronting him; staying between the ball and his man. If you watch Dawkins play defense, and pay careful attention, you'll see that he keeps the ball away from his man a lot.

A by-product of aggressive fronting is that it leaves you more susceptible to back-door cuts. When these plays are successful, it makes you look like a horrible defender. But those back-door cuts are the flip side of a coin that has another, good side. Do you think those cuts happened by accident? They were planned by a very savvy coach who noticed, as did I, that Dawkins is actually a pretty darn good at denying his man the ball. They were designed to take advantage of it.

But there are no stats about how much help the defense received by having Dawkins's man prevented from getting the ball on many plays throughout the game.


So when you look at two back-door cuts where his man gets a lay-up you are only seeing the negative, and completely ignoring the positives of his defense.

(I've been wanting to stick up for his defense for several weeks now. I think he gets dogged on this board WAY more than he deserves.)

Great post. I agree.

Chard
01-13-2012, 04:11 PM
Great win! I don't think some are really enjoying what a good team Duke just beat.


I'm surprised there is little acknowledgment, in this thread, of the offensive spurt Andre Dawkins provided in this game. He hit a couple of big 3-pointers and a nice 18' footer. When we were struggling mightily on offense in the 1st half he provided a spark. I say let's give credit where credit is due.

IMHO, Andre Dawkins is the key to Duke being a top-tier team. The shooting funk he has been in lately has corresponded in Duke being "down" these past few weeks.

In the first half Andre got caught turning his back to the ball and got burned on defense. I can think of two instances of this last night but also remember a few more from previous games. Maybe this is coloring the perception of other posters. The second half he did a really good job (as did the entire team). I was a little puzzled by Coach K's opinion of Andre's defense but balance out the first and second halves of the game and Andre did very well. I think Coach is trying to help instill confidence in Andre.

snowdenscold
01-13-2012, 04:42 PM
The natural reaction from both the Butler game and this game is...dang, we almost lost this; what if that guy had hit the last shot?; we missed some chances to nail this down, etc.

Was that really your reaction to the Butler game? My reaction was... dang, we just won the national championship.


Not so much on this game, but I am sympathetic to Roywhite's reaction to the NC game. A significant portion of me could only think "Oh my gosh... that almost went in" and couldn't move on to celebrating properly for a bit.

Kedsy
01-13-2012, 05:21 PM
Not so much on this game, but I am sympathetic to Roywhite's reaction to the NC game. A significant portion of me could only think "Oh my gosh... that almost went in" and couldn't move on to celebrating properly for a bit.

I understand. I was in the arena, in the Duke section. When the shot missed, nobody said anything. Until my eight year old son started shouting with joy and everyone sort of woke up and realized the game truly was over.

superdave
01-13-2012, 05:30 PM
I understand. I was in the arena, in the Duke section. When the shot missed, nobody said anything. Until my eight year old son started shouting with joy and everyone sort of woke up and realized the game truly was over.

I took my pulse.

ncexnyc
01-13-2012, 06:03 PM
Completely agree about Mason. But 2-10 from the free-throw line? I know this element of his game has been addressed time and time again, but that is unacceptable. Fortunately, with thin benches and only 5 fouls, Hack-A-Mason may not always work in the opponent's favor. But if I'm the opposing coach and I have fouls to give, that is just a great strategy.
While I'd love to see Mason improve his freethrow shooting, I can live with his current production from the line if we would only feed him from the start of the game. Let's get to the bonus as quickly as possible and maybe then the opposition will have to consider if the hacking strategy is worth losing players and getting us to the bonus with lots of time left on the clock.

dcar1985
01-13-2012, 06:39 PM
Dawkins plays a lot better defense than people give him credit for. One of his strengths is keeping the ball away from his man by fronting him; staying between the ball and his man. If you watch Dawkins play defense, and pay careful attention, you'll see that he keeps the ball away from his man a lot.

A by-product of aggressive fronting is that it leaves you more susceptible to back-door cuts. When these plays are successful, it makes you look like a horrible defender. But those back-door cuts are the flip side of a coin that has another, good side. Do you think those cuts happened by accident? They were planned by a very savvy coach who noticed, as did I, that Dawkins is actually a pretty darn good at denying his man the ball. They were designed to take advantage of it.

But there are no stats about how much help the defense received by having Dawkins's man prevented from getting the ball on many plays throughout the game.


So when you look at two back-door cuts where his man gets a lay-up you are only seeing the negative, and completely ignoring the positives of his defense.

(I've been wanting to stick up for his defense for several weeks now. I think he gets dogged on this board WAY more than he deserves.)


Yea I dont think he does that good at ball denial either...he just isn't very quick laterally, it is what it is...Dre is probably my favorite player but he struggles in certain parts of the game that I dont really think he should. I watched the game again and there were actually about 4 times he got beat back door...I dont care what you claim else he was doing that's not good D.....Staying between the ball and the man means you should be able to see both

mgtr
01-13-2012, 06:43 PM
Of interest, Dawkins and Curry were in every positive lineup of the +/- stats. As others have suggested, maybe we should go back to the Curry (at point), Dawkins, Rivers guard lineup.

wilko
01-13-2012, 07:11 PM
This was a really good game to win. <duh!>
We had a chance to cave and responded positively. We did not get impatient / or turn into deer in the headlights with our youth. There was a spell of about 4 minutes when our D was REALLY clicking and we got some separation from a tight UVa club. That could have easily turned into Temple the Sequel. But it did not.

UrinalCake
01-13-2012, 08:46 PM
Not so much on this game, but I am sympathetic to Roywhite's reaction to the NC game. A significant portion of me could only think "Oh my gosh... that almost went in" and couldn't move on to celebrating properly for a bit.

Except that in the VA game we were up three, so at worst we would have gone into overtime. I would have felt pretty good about our chances in OT.

In the title game I was more nervous on the previous possession, when we were up 1 and they were inbounding on their own end line. I thought for sure they were going to score. Good times...

Newton_14
01-13-2012, 08:57 PM
Definitely big shots....but he was getting dogged on defense, which in my eyes kind of out weighed his O

K saw it differently. He said on the radio this morning Andre had the best defensive game of his career last night. I thought Andre played good defense in the second half. The screens UVA deployed on the wings made it extremely difficult on our perimeter but in the 2nd half they played well. A couple of lapses in the first half by Andre but much better in the 2nd half. Team defense in 2nd half was really strong.

Newton_14
01-13-2012, 09:21 PM
I notice our rotation was 8 today, but the 8th guy only played 12 minutes. The 6th and 7th guys played 15 and 16 minutes. Until the very end, Ryan was our best player on the floor. The two turnovers and two missed FTs may be coloring people's perceptions of how well he played tonight.
.

Sorry buddy, but can't agree with you on this one. Ryan had several bad passes (2 really bad trying to feed Mason in the post), and had a horrible time defending Scott. Then he had the turnover at the end when were trying to closeout the game, and followed that up with 2 free throw misses that would have iced the game. Once K started rotating Miles and Mason on Scott, we finally got the guy slowed down. I thought Mason was easily the best player on the court for Duke, and Miles had a strong game as well, but the refs did him no favors. 3 of the 5 fouls called on Miles were pretty terrible calls. All 3 were touch fouls that made no sense at all to call.

Agree with the rest of your post, but just can't go with you on the Ryan part.

Kfanarmy
01-13-2012, 09:38 PM
I dont care what you claim else he was doing that's not good D.....Staying between the ball and the man means you should be able to see both Wish you were playing, because I'd really like to see someone stay between ball and the player they are defending for a whole game and never lose sight of either the ball or their man for a whole game. You must be an incredible defender with an incredibly wide field of vision!

loldevilz
01-13-2012, 10:03 PM
Of interest, Dawkins and Curry were in every positive lineup of the +/- stats. As others have suggested, maybe we should go back to the Curry (at point), Dawkins, Rivers guard lineup.

More interesting is that Coach K went with that lineup for the end of the game. They are our most experienced lineup so it makes sense. Cook, Thornton, Gbinije then can play based on matchups or for a spark off the bench.

Newton_14
01-13-2012, 10:06 PM
Just a few comments. I was at the game and look forward to watching the game on my DVR to see a couple of officiating calls/non-calls that looked bad to me in person -- specifially the no-call on the Scott follow that looked like a blatant GT to me in real time and the the Mason swat that was called goal-tend -- it looked like he hit the net when the ball was well below the rim. On Miles' two illegal screens, well, the first was a blatant call. No problem with that, he extended his leg to screen the trailing defender. But I didn't see him do anything wrong or on unusual on the other.

As for Andre tonight -- I agree with what K said afterwards: BY FAR his best defensive game at Duke. Did anybody notice that Sammy Zeglinski, Virginia's top perimeter shooter, was scoreless ... 0-6 from the field? Dawkins (and Rivers) had a lot to do with that. Harris had some success against him, but he was just 5-of-11 from the floor and only got to the line four times (twice when he was fouled on a scramble after Kelly's turnover).

And I don't recall any ballhandling issues Andre had against Virginia's pressure (one assist, no turnovers). Well, there was one -- late in the game, he came down with a tough rebound in traffic and caught a finger in the eye. He was unable to get rid of the ball for several seconds as the refs let the Virginia players continue to hack at him. Duke did have to call a timeout to prevent a 10-second call. I think the one people are complaining about came a couple of posessions later, when Andre caught the ball in the corner, thought he was fouled ... then dished to Austin, who was hammered (but no foul call). He got it to Curry who raced it over the line just before the 10-second count ... and just as K called a timeout. I didn't sense Andre doing anything wrong there.

Great game by both Plumlees, especially Mason, except for his FT shooting. But we know he can't shoot free throws. What hurt worse was Curry missing a FT when he ould have put Duke up 10, then Kelly missing two FTs late. He had hit 16 straight to that point over two gmes. Those two misses really made the ending tense.

Poor defensive rebounding in the second half. Interesting that problem would crop up at a time when Duke's defense was REALLY good for the first time all year. That's often a feature of Coach K's best defensive teams -- because they play ball-you-man (instead of the more passive stay-behind-your-man), they sometimes have problems rebounding.

Frustrating that Virginia was able to impose their tempo, but when you face a team that wants to play slow, there are only two ways to speed things up -- either press them into turnovers (which Duke is not capable of doing right now) or hit enough shots to build an early lead and force them to run to catch up. Duke missed its first seven 3s and spent the first half chasing the Hoos.

Yet, even with everything, Duke scored 61 points ... that's only the second time this year that a Virginia opponent topped 58.

BTW, did this game remind anybody else -- in terms of tempo, defensive intensity and dramatic finish -- of the national title game against Butler? Now, that game was played at a higher level, but this game seemed a lot like it.

Got in really late last night from the game, and had long work day, so just started reading the thread tonight and your post is as far as I have gotten, but had to stop and comment, that this is by far the best perspective on the game last night. Well done Oly. Very tough game, against a really good UVA team that executes their style really well. You just can't speed them up. They run their offensive sets until they get the shot they want, then crash the boards, yet somehow get back on defense well enough to prevent fast breaks. Impressive.

K was stoked as he walked off the court and gave a fist pump right in front of the crazies. In his post-game comments he stated the guys played really hard and really well, especially in the 2nd half. I have heard all 3 of the assistant coaches on the radio since last night, and they all agreed Duke played really well, especially on defense. That is not coach speak either. All of them were very disappointed after the Temple game and did not sugar coat their comments after that game.

The execution on closing the game out was the only area they pointed out that was displeasing, that and foul shots. They are also standing up for Mason with the free throw situation. Wojo stated this afternoon that were it not for the free throw situation, Mason would have to be in the discussions as one of the best players in AMERICA. They feel he is playing that well. Wojo also said Mason is spending countless hours in the gym, on his own, shooting free throws to try to overcome it. Many many hours and many many free throw shots. He said the hard part is not being able to simulate game pressure, emotion, shooting free throws right after a very physical play on a shot attempt (such as how he got hammered on a couple of the dunk attempts last nights), etc. Without being able to simulate those type of things, Wojo says it makes it difficult, but sooner or later, Mason will have a game where he sees several go through the hoop, and he will break through it mentally.

All of the coaches also raved about the defensive game that Andre played. The two back door plays aside, the kid played a really good game. It was hell for our guys fighting through all of the moving screens, but Andre was working his tail off, and was a big part of the perimeter defense (which was really good last night in the 2nd half). UVA is legit. Their style is hard to play against, they have veteran players, they are very well coached no matter how many times Vitale said it on TV, and they execute their stuff. They will absolutely be a NCAA tourney team. Not sure why so many felt Duke was just going to run them out of Cameron in a cakewalk blowout. I was not expecting that at all. UVA could have wilted to the pressure of Duke's run, especially given Cameron was packed to the max and very loud, but they hung tough. Give them some credit.

Duke is now 14-2, and notched another close, hard fought win in the memory bank, they can draw on later, which will serve them well. Sunday at Clemson will be another difficult game, so don't expect perfection, or Duke to blow them out. Clemson does have talent, and unlike the half-empty gym some of their home games have been this year, their place will be packed to the max, to try to inspire the Tigers to a "rush the court" upset. Duke will need to be mentally prepared to withstand the pressure and stave off runs in a hostile environment.

It will be nice to "escape" with a win down there.

Newton_14
01-13-2012, 10:25 PM
Yep, Austin's big mistake on this one. He just watched the play. Because it was an impressive slam, it was shown a couple of times on replay. Austin was totally passive, no block out, no thinking [about how to play basketball.....].

I'm always curious as to how exactly the staff uses film to teach. The mantra "next play" makes good sense, during the game. But using film for "teachable moments" does seem essential.

Speaking of which, I am still dismayed by Miles and Mason on high, too often moving, screens. I realize there's a difference of opinion re the calls on Miles late in the second half. But IMO, Mason has a tendency to stick out his elbow and hip, and Miles has itchy feet, and thus comes close to moving on some picks.

I'll never get a chance to see how the staff tries to coach this stuff. Wish I could. UVa's screens seemed more solid, better executed by the players. Bennett's really good.

Finally, the couple of times UVa got a key O-board on missed FTs had me saying unpleasant words. Hard to claim "Duke plays every play" if they don't. I'd prefer my team be more alert and aggressive. Much more, and consistently, relentlessly.

To be fair, and accurate, Duke's D was much improved this game, so there will be good D-plays to emphasize in film sessions, too.

You haven't heard about K's "Red Pointer" in the one-on-one game film review with each player? :) Seriously. I saw it on the ESPN specials last year where they went inside Duke's program. Nolan hosted a couple of them and showed the film room where Nolan descibed K showing them the "errors of their ways" with the dreaded "Red Laser Pointer". Nolan indicated those are not fun sessions. It was great stuff.

Trust me on the 50 gazillion UVA screens last night. There was nothing "Solid, and better executed" about them, and that last call on Miles was just lame. As were 2 of the other 5 fouls he was whistled for. I wish K could have the ref's join him in the film room with his laser pointer and share a bit of ummm "feedback" on how well they performed. :cool: HA!

Seriously though, look up those ESPN specials. I think there were 4 of them. Well worth watching...

dcar1985
01-13-2012, 10:46 PM
Wish you were playing, because I'd really like to see someone stay between ball and the player they are defending for a whole game and never lose sight of either the ball or their man for a whole game. You must be an incredible defender with an incredibly wide field of vision!

So I have to be the greatest defensive player ever in order to point out that Dre got lost multiple times on back door cuts?!?

UrinalCake
01-13-2012, 10:59 PM
Seriously though, look up those ESPN specials. I think there were 4 of them. Well worth watching...

Are these available for purchase online anywhere? I missed them when they came out (a Maryland buddy of mine was gracious enough to offer to DVR them and then burn them to DVD, but the ESPN schedule was always incorrect as to when they would air). So I still want to see them.

Greg_Newton
01-13-2012, 11:17 PM
Trust me on the 50 gazillion UVA screens last night. There was nothing "Solid, and better executed" about them, and that last call on Miles was just lame. As were 2 of the other 5 fouls he was whistled for. I wish K could have the ref's join him in the film room with his laser pointer and share a bit of ummm "feedback" on how well they performed. :cool: HA!

Yeah, Sene was moving into his screens all night. Even on the very last play, Curry got decked by a blatantly moving screen reminiscent of Matt Howard's forearm shiver in '10.

I wouldn't mind seeing our guys try to blast through those a little more though. Jontel Evans launched his shoulder right into Miles when he stepped into one of his screens, which resulted on a foul on miles... even if it's called defensive, that's a tone-setting foul worth taking, IMO.

Wheat/"/"/"
01-13-2012, 11:21 PM
Time for some unvarnished Wheat/"/"/"...

I didn't think either team actually played very well. It was a battle of top 25 teams in a slugfest of mediocrity.

It was a competitive game and a nice win, but the level of play was poor. If those were the second and 3rd best ACC teams, well then lets just say the league really is down.

About Mason...

Mason is a good player, and I make these comments holding his potential in high regard, but he's just not improving as he should. You look at him and it's easy to expect more. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he's reached his ceiling.

He's not getting the ball down low enough, in good enough position or rythem, and when he does, he's still only getting by with superior athletisicism. His post moves are not fluid at all. His shooting touch is bulky. And his foul shooting is just plain bad. His court awareness is average at best. He rebounds strong and is a solid defender, but certainly not a stopper.

He's not the player I thought he'd be when I first saw him, but he can still be good enough to anchor a title team if this team can find some chemistry.

At least Duke fans can relax for next season, because he's coming back. He's gonna be lucky to be considered a late first round pick,imo.

I don't understand at minimum how he can't have a catch and turn jump hook after three years. With his hops and strength he should be able to get that from 4' anytime a play was run for it.
When Duke does focus on him and gets him a feed so he can at least attack the basket, it opens the floor and the offense looks better. I'm puzzled as many are why he doesn't get more looks to score, because even if he can't get it in from the post or the line consistantly, he's sucking defenders down and drawing fouls.

This team is capable of stroking it from outside and beating anybody with individual shooting displays. But when they ever hit a team that can apply outside pressure on the ball for a full game, or just have an off shooting night, they're gonna struggle.

The lack of post offense to open things up for the shooters will get this team bounced if it doesn't improve big time before the tourney.

Just my 2cents...it is mid season after all and we're in conference posting mode now, time to sharpen the play. I'll only be able to defend myself by phone for a couple of days, be easy on me :)

gumbomoop
01-14-2012, 12:19 AM
Trust me on the 50 gazillion UVA screens last night. There was nothing "Solid, and better executed" about them....

I appreciate being "called" on my observation, for it's clear from a number of posts - including several from folks in attendance last eve - that my opinion appears unfounded. I am hesitant to give up too easily, so I will review the tape. Is it possible that "better executed" means the UVa guys didn't set up quite so "wide" [??], i.e., with elbows jutting out a bit, or a hip? I acknowledge that you and others seem already to have implicitly answered my question - with a firm, "Nope, that's not it; their screens were often illegal, if uncalled."

So I am going to review the game, and correct the error of my ways if, alas, necessary, as, alas, alas, seems likely.

Greg_Newton
01-14-2012, 03:19 AM
When Duke does focus on him and gets him a feed so he can at least attack the basket, it opens the floor and the offense looks better. I'm puzzled as many are why he doesn't get more looks to score, because even if he can't get it in from the post or the line consistantly, he's sucking defenders down and drawing fouls.

This team is capable of stroking it from outside and beating anybody with individual shooting displays. But when they ever hit a team that can apply outside pressure on the ball for a full game, or just have an off shooting night, they're gonna struggle.

The lack of post offense to open things up for the shooters will get this team bounced if it doesn't improve big time before the tourney.

Completely agree.


About Mason...

Mason is a good player, and I make these comments holding his potential in high regard, but he's just not improving as he should. You look at him and it's easy to expect more. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he's reached his ceiling.

He's not getting the ball down low enough, in good enough position or rythem, and when he does, he's still only getting by with superior athletisicism. His post moves are not fluid at all. His shooting touch is bulky. And his foul shooting is just plain bad. His court awareness is average at best. He rebounds strong and is a solid defender, but certainly not a stopper.

He's not the player I thought he'd be when I first saw him, but he can still be good enough to anchor a title team if this team can find some chemistry.

At least Duke fans can relax for next season, because he's coming back. He's gonna be lucky to be considered a late first round pick,imo.

I don't understand at minimum how he can't have a catch and turn jump hook after three years. With his hops and strength he should be able to get that from 4' anytime a play was run for it.

Uh. What?

Papa John
01-14-2012, 06:27 AM
This game was at home and easily could have gone into overtime.

And it also easily could have been a double-digit, no-stress win for Duke, had some folks hit a couple FTs... That said...



Duke will have a successful season because we have the best coach who will get the most out of this team. That said, I am sure that I will get reamed for what I am going to say but I will say it anyway. This team is not a championship team. Can things change, surely, but as I see it we are not even a Final 8 team . One glaring weakness is that in a close tournament game we cannot have one of our best players on the court because he cannot make a FT, every team knows it and if by some chance he is on the court , he will be fouled incessantly. .

I am not trying to be a Debbie Downer just a Ralph Realist and that does not mean that it will not be enjoyable to watch this team play, because it will and there will be some very enjoyable moments this year I am sure.

I agree with your opinion here. At the moment, we don't look like a championship calibre team, and we are very young, raw, and flawed in many ways. However, there is still a lot of basketball left to be played, and it will indeed be fun to watch this group grow and develop as a team. And who knows... By March, perhaps they will grow into a championship calibre unit?

greybeard
01-14-2012, 08:09 AM
Overall, one of the best set of comments on a thread. Really, really enjoyed reading what people saw and how they wrote about it. Collectively, has to the best commentary on the game than the collectivity of what the heads had to say on the news or what we'll see writen about it elsewhere.

DUKIE V(A)
01-14-2012, 08:21 AM
Time for some unvarnished Wheat/"/"/"...

I didn't think either team actually played very well. It was a battle of top 25 teams in a slugfest of mediocrity.

It was a competitive game and a nice win, but the level of play was poor. If those were the second and 3rd best ACC teams, well then lets just say the league really is down.

About Mason...

Mason is a good player, and I make these comments holding his potential in high regard, but he's just not improving as he should. You look at him and it's easy to expect more. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he's reached his ceiling.

He's not getting the ball down low enough, in good enough position or rythem, and when he does, he's still only getting by with superior athletisicism. His post moves are not fluid at all. His shooting touch is bulky. And his foul shooting is just plain bad. His court awareness is average at best. He rebounds strong and is a solid defender, but certainly not a stopper.

He's not the player I thought he'd be when I first saw him, but he can still be good enough to anchor a title team if this team can find some chemistry.

At least Duke fans can relax for next season, because he's coming back. He's gonna be lucky to be considered a late first round pick,imo.

I don't understand at minimum how he can't have a catch and turn jump hook after three years. With his hops and strength he should be able to get that from 4' anytime a play was run for it.
When Duke does focus on him and gets him a feed so he can at least attack the basket, it opens the floor and the offense looks better. I'm puzzled as many are why he doesn't get more looks to score, because even if he can't get it in from the post or the line consistantly, he's sucking defenders down and drawing fouls.

This team is capable of stroking it from outside and beating anybody with individual shooting displays. But when they ever hit a team that can apply outside pressure on the ball for a full game, or just have an off shooting night, they're gonna struggle.

The lack of post offense to open things up for the shooters will get this team bounced if it doesn't improve big time before the tourney.

Just my 2cents...it is mid season after all and we're in conference posting mode now, time to sharpen the play. I'll only be able to defend myself by phone for a couple of days, be easy on me :)

I too get the feeling that Mason may surprise people and come back. However, I am not as down on him and his potential as you seem to be -- perhaps you are more focused on NBA projections whereas I am focused on how well he is playing in college and how much better he is getting. Mason looks like he is having fun out there and has vastly improved his game. I can easily live with his free throw shooting given all the other things he contributes to this team. Mason is a monster and if he were to come back, I predict consensus All-American status. As it is this season, there are very, very few big men better than him and he has done well against the guys considered by many to be the best Robinson (Kansas) and Sullinger (OSU). I personally would not trade him straight up for Sullinger who is most people's number one bigman but does not offer much in the way of defense.

As for the ACC being down, I agree. That said, I am looking forward to watching Carolina and UVA go at it twice this year. As far as Carolina beating them, I will quote my son when I make suggestions about what such and such a player should be doing better ... "It's not as easy as it looks."

sagegrouse
01-14-2012, 08:49 AM
I too get the feeling that Mason may surprise people and come back. However, I am not as down on him and his potential as you seem to be -- perhaps you are more focused on NBA projections whereas I am focused on how well he is playing in college and how much better he is getting. Mason looks like he is having fun out there and has vastly improved his game. I can easily live with his free throw shooting given all the other things he contributes to this team. Mason is a monster and if he were to come back, I predict consensus All-American status. As it is this season, there are very, very few big men better than him and he has done well against the guys considered by many to be the best Robinson (Kansas) and Sullinger (OSU). I personally would not trade him straight up for Sullinger who is most people's number one bigman but does not offer much in the way of defense.

As for the ACC being down, I agree. That said, I am looking forward to watching Carolina and UVA go at it twice this year. As far as Carolina beating them, I will quote my son when I make suggestions about what such and such a player should be doing better ... "It's not as easy as it looks."

I am very pleased with what happens when Mason gets the ball (except at the FT line, of course), but he doesn't get it nearly as much as he should. We all noticed the change that happened at halftime, when Mason got the ball four possessions in a row and -- magically -- Duke had the lead.

Maybe K was channelling old-time Wake Coach Bones McKinney, who used to say to his guards, including Billy Packer, "This here's my man [All-American C-F] Len Chappell. If you don't get him the ball, you're going to be sitting on the bench next to me."

I also think Mason could be a heckuva lot more, shall we say, "demanding" to his teammates. Perhaps he should be channelling Christian Laettner.

sagegrouse

Wheat/"/"/"
01-14-2012, 08:52 AM
I too get the feeling that Mason may surprise people and come back. However, I am not as down on him and his potential as you seem to be -- perhaps you are more focused on NBA projections whereas I am focused on how well he is playing in college and how much better he is getting. Mason looks like he is having fun out there and has vastly improved his game. I can easily live with his free throw shooting given all the other things he contributes to this team. Mason is a monster and if he were to come back, I predict consensus All-American status. As it is this season, there are very, very few big men better than him and he has done well against the guys considered by many to be the best Robinson (Kansas) and Sullinger (OSU). I personally would not trade him straight up for Sullinger who is most people's number one bigman but does not offer much in the way of defense.

As for the ACC being down, I agree. That said, I am looking forward to watching Carolina and UVA go at it twice this year. As far as Carolina beating them, I will quote my son when I make suggestions about what such and such a player should be doing better ... "It's not as easy as it looks."

I know I was down on him that last post, but it is because I expect so much more from him. And he is one of the top big men in college, but he should be THE top big man in college with his physical skill set.

I'm sure he's a good kid and he seems to be a great teammate. I was just attempting to give the board a splash of cold water reality after watching that last game. Take my evaluation with a grain of salt, I did miss once...:)

BTW, Just checked a couple of sites...NBADraft.net has him projected at 26 now, DraftExpress at 19, ESPN 18.

duke09hms
01-14-2012, 09:08 AM
I know I was down on him that last post, but it is because I expect so much more from him. And he is one of the top big men in college, but he should be THE top big man in college with his physical skill set.

I'm sure he's a good kid and he seems to be a great teammate. I was just attempting to give the board a splash of cold water reality after watching that last game. Take my evaluation with a grain of salt, I did miss once...:)

BTW, Just checked a couple of sites...NBADraft.net has him projected at 26 now, DraftExpress at 19, ESPN 18.

Thanks for your input, the board gets a little monotonous with all the starry-eyed Duke blue optimists here. Honest criticism is good.

That said, given Mason's jump in performance this year, it's hard to criticize him for not playing "better." You must have some damn high expectations of him. It would be awesome for us if he came back for next year - Duke with a dominant post scorer 2 years in a row??! CRAZY!!

DukieInBrasil
01-14-2012, 10:09 AM
That said, given Mason's jump in performance this year, it's hard to criticize him for not playing "better." You must have some damn high expectations of him. It would be awesome for us if he came back for next year - Duke with a dominant post scorer 2 years in a row??! CRAZY!!

Mason is having a very good year and is shooting at an excellent rate, but he is not quite averaging 12ppg. I would hesitate to call him a dominant post scorer. He's got 2 moves, a left and right hook shot, that he can go to to create shots, otherwise it's dunks or Oboards. He has no jumper and he is an offensive liability at the FT line. Imagine if Mason could shoot midrange like Mike Scott, THEN he would be dominant.
Don't get me wrong, i am pumped about what Mason is bringing this year, and i think we should go to him more cuz those hook shots are really hard to stop. I would pull up short of calling him dominant though. Solid, yes.

duke09hms
01-14-2012, 10:35 AM
Mason is having a very good year and is shooting at an excellent rate, but he is not quite averaging 12ppg. I would hesitate to call him a dominant post scorer. He's got 2 moves, a left and right hook shot, that he can go to to create shots, otherwise it's dunks or Oboards. He has no jumper and he is an offensive liability at the FT line. Imagine if Mason could shoot midrange like Mike Scott, THEN he would be dominant.
Don't get me wrong, i am pumped about what Mason is bringing this year, and i think we should go to him more cuz those hook shots are really hard to stop. I would pull up short of calling him dominant though. Solid, yes.

The only reason he's averaging under 12 ppg is because we're Duke, and our philosophy never emphasizes the post even when that is our clear strength. We are always a guard-oriented team, if Mason were on any other team he'd be getting north of 15 ppg easy. If we would feed him the ball, like we did for the first ten minutes of the 2nd half, he would be averaging Sullinger-type ppg.

Mason is a dominant post scorer because he can score on anyone anytime - KU's Robinson, OSU's Sullinger. The only thing limiting him is us.

Olympic Fan
01-14-2012, 10:40 AM
Mason is having a very good year and is shooting at an excellent rate, but he is not quite averaging 12ppg. I would hesitate to call him a dominant post scorer. He's got 2 moves, a left and right hook shot, that he can go to to create shots, otherwise it's dunks or Oboards. He has no jumper and he is an offensive liability at the FT line. Imagine if Mason could shoot midrange like Mike Scott, THEN he would be dominant.

While I agree that Mason is far from a dominant inside scorer, I think you are wrong to suggest he has just two moves -- the left and right hook. He scored several times in the Virginia game by utilizing the drop step, a classic post move that you rarely see used these days.

I'd love to see the mid-range jumper too ... in the two previous seasons, Mason has occassionally used it with some success, but I haven't seen it much (or at all) this season. Miles has done it -- he had a beautiful 17-footer against the cavs.

Obviously, I'd love to see him come back for his senior year. If that happened, we wouldn't have to sweat Tony Parker's recruiting decision. It's a tough call -- there is a lot Mason has to work on before he can be effective in the pros (he either needs a midrange jumper to play with his current physicality or a lot of bolk ... right now he's looking like the second coming of Chris Dudley, including the FT ineptitude). On the other hand, he's in position to be a late first-round pick and that's a lot of guaranteed money.

jimsumner
01-14-2012, 11:29 AM
While I agree that Mason is far from a dominant inside scorer, I think you are wrong to suggest he has just two moves -- the left and right hook. He scored several times in the Virginia game by utilizing the drop step, a classic post move that you rarely see used these days.

I'd love to see the mid-range jumper too ... in the two previous seasons, Mason has occassionally used it with some success, but I haven't seen it much (or at all) this season. Miles has done it -- he had a beautiful 17-footer against the cavs.

Obviously, I'd love to see him come back for his senior year. If that happened, we wouldn't have to sweat Tony Parker's recruiting decision. It's a tough call -- there is a lot Mason has to work on before he can be effective in the pros (he either needs a midrange jumper to play with his current physicality or a lot of bolk ... right now he's looking like the second coming of Chris Dudley, including the FT ineptitude). On the other hand, he's in position to be a late first-round pick and that's a lot of guaranteed money.

About that Miles 17-footer. That was one of those "no-no-no, nice shot" moments. He made a couple of those off the bench against Georgetown his freshman season. But it doesn't seem to be a part of the game he's developed.

About that 12 points per game Mason is averaging. Give him a respectable percentage from the line and it's at 14 ppg. He's really leaving a boatload of points out there.

Devilsfan
01-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Agreed. He makes his FT and we beat UVA the way most expected. I guess we just like keeping the games close.

hq2
01-14-2012, 12:13 PM
Mason has gotten a lot better. His overall game is clearly approaching an NBA level. He now has a serviceable
jump hook as well as some face up moves. Given his size and leaping ability, I'd say he should use that move
instead of a turnaround jumper; unlike Shelden, who isn't that great at either, he should be able to get that
shot in the pros. Basically, only his free throw shooting is keeping him from being an AA level player, because
he played both Robinson and Sullinger about even. They need to have him working with a special coach this
summer shooting at least 500-1000 free throws a day. Just has to get better at it. I'd say if he can do that,
he's a lottery pick next year.

jimsumner
01-14-2012, 12:27 PM
Mason has gotten a lot better. His overall game is clearly approaching an NBA level. He now has a serviceable
jump hook as well as some face up moves. Given his size and leaping ability, I'd say he should use that move
instead of a turnaround jumper; unlike Shelden, who isn't that great at either, he should be able to get that
shot in the pros. Basically, only his free throw shooting is keeping him from being an AA level player, because
he played both Robinson and Sullinger about even. They need to have him working with a special coach this
summer shooting at least 500-1000 free throws a day. Just has to get better at it. I'd say if he can do that,
he's a lottery pick next year.

Lack of practice from the line is not holding Mason back. It's confidence. It's a circular argument with lousy foul shooters. They can't make them without the confidence they can only get from making them.

If he could only knock down six or eight in a row. The clouds will part, bluebirds will rest on his shoulders and all will be well across the land.

But he has to make them. Then he can make some more.

duke09hms
01-14-2012, 01:51 PM
Lack of practice from the line is not holding Mason back. It's confidence. It's a circular argument with lousy foul shooters. They can't make them without the confidence they can only get from making them.

If he could only knock down six or eight in a row. The clouds will part, bluebirds will rest on his shoulders and all will be well across the land.

But he has to make them. Then he can make some more.

I dont know, he did make 7-9 against Kansas before reverting back to the mean.

devildeac
01-14-2012, 02:19 PM
Lack of practice from the line is not holding Mason back. It's confidence. It's a circular argument with lousy foul shooters. They can't make them without the confidence they can only get from making them.

If he could only knock down six or eight in a row. The clouds will part, bluebirds will rest on his shoulders and all will be well across the land.

But he has to make them. Then he can make some more.

He was 2/2 in the Temple game and 3/3 vs GT. I actually thought that might give him a big boost of confidence shooting FT in the UVa game. Sigh. If only he had made the first 1 or 2 he attempted in the first half on Thursday night. Sigh again.

BluDvlsN1
01-14-2012, 02:35 PM
There is really good discussion on this thread regarding the what if's and if we coulds really interesting perspectives!

When I look back at what this team has accomplished with what we percieve as needs or warts and wrinkles,
It really has been quite a good 1st half result in the won/lost stat.Has it always been the style we're used too?,
Probably not...but as the records always determine it not how, just how many!!

When I think of the teams of the past that I felt were particulary exciting it usually gravitates to those that had really strong on ball pressure, playing the passing lanes with an exciting transition score..the plays this year that seem to get us going, seem to be in that vein, i.e. (the Thornton/MP1) sequence!!

When I let my mind wander(doesn't take much) I envision a 3/4 of Full court 2 1 2 trap with a mobile big in the middle to pick off that 2nd or 3rd desperation pass...I don't know if this group could make it work but I have a sense they could cause they are good athletes, at least on certain applications.

Then I wake up...looking forward at our upside we have quite a lot to be optimistic about with the results we have had in a growth mode...how many D1 teams would want our set of "problems"?

Personally, I'm in agreement we must have the offense go through the post players and Austin, (VA did a helluva defensive job in all facets)...Would like to see more movement without the ball across all the guards,seems to be too much spectating!

Just random thoughts IMO !

Saratoga2
01-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Lack of practice from the line is not holding Mason back. It's confidence. It's a circular argument with lousy foul shooters. They can't make them without the confidence they can only get from making them.

If he could only knock down six or eight in a row. The clouds will part, bluebirds will rest on his shoulders and all will be well across the land.

But he has to make them. Then he can make some more.

He has a hitch in his shot, coming part way, then after a slight hesitation, finishing with his arm/hand. He uses little arc, which further reduces his made FT's. All the confidence in the world will not solve poor technique. Right now he appears to need help getting his technique right. Without that, I doubt he will consistently hit a reasonable number of his shots. Are the coaches reluctant to assist him? I have heard that he is very receptive to other coaching, so I am wondering why nothing is getting done.

FellowTraveler
01-14-2012, 04:59 PM
Given the number of high-level basketball players who have remained terrible free through shooters throughout their career, combined with the knowledge that many of these players have worked extremely hard to improve their free throw shooting, with the assistance of expert coaching, I conclude that dramatic improvements in free throw shooting are not as simple as they may seem.

I very much doubt that Mason just needs to practice more, or gain confidence, or focus better, or improve his form, or whatever other simple (if not easy) solution any of us can think of. I assume, instead, that he will remain a bad-to-awful free throw shooter, and think that expecting him to change in this regard is only slightly more realistic than expecting Seth Curry to regularly back his defender down in the post for easy buckets.

As a result, I actually don't get particularly frustrated by Mason's missed free throws during games. Frankly, this surprises me, as I've always liked the fact that Duke teams tend to make their free throws, and I do sometimes get frustrated at other players missing theirs. But Mason? I'm just resigned to him not being a good free throw shooter. Fortunately, he brings a lot of other things to the table.

That said, one thing that did bother my during the Virginia game that I haven't seen mentioned: Mason and Miles were on the court together with roughly 4 minutes left; Miles already had 4 fouls. I said to my wife at the time, and continue to believe, that this was a strategic mistake by the coaching staff. Here's why: If Miles fouled out, Duke would've had to either play Ryan as the only big down the stretch, or play essentially 4-on-5 on offense, because they couldn't take the chance of passing Mason the ball and letting Virginia foul him. Miles should have been sitting to ensure that he would be available to sub in for Mason for the last couple of minutes. Instead, they were on the court together, and Miles promptly fouled out with three minutes remaining, leaving Duke playing 4-on-5, as feared. And Duke had as many turnovers as points after Miles fouled out.

Now, had Miles been in the game in place of Mason over those last three minutes, things would likely have played out pretty much the same way. Ryan's turnovers were pretty clearly not the result of being afraid to pass to Mason, and there's little reason to believe the offense would have been run differently with Miles in the game. So I'm not saying the bad results down the stretch happened because Mason was in the game. I'm saying Mason being in the game made bad results more likely. And playing Mason and Miles together when Miles had 4 fouls at the 4 minute mark made it more likely that Mason would have to be in the game for the last couple of minutes.

In short: If it is at all avoidable, Mason Plumlee shouldn't be on the court on offense when Duke is clinging to a narrow lead in the closing minutes. The coaching staff needs to do a better job of managing Mason/Miles/Ryan to limit the likelihood of this occurring. (I should say that this is the first time this year that I felt, in real time, that they did a poor job of addressing this problem. I should also say that, in general, I think the strategic approach to the second half -- going inside to Mason more, the use of the Curry/Rivers/Dawkins perimeter, etc -- was sound, though I'd like to seen a more sustained commitment to getting Mason the ball.)

JNort
01-14-2012, 05:56 PM
The only reason he's averaging under 12 ppg is because we're Duke, and our philosophy never emphasizes the post even when that is our clear strength. We are always a guard-oriented team, if Mason were on any other team he'd be getting north of 15 ppg easy. If we would feed him the ball, like we did for the first ten minutes of the 2nd half, he would be averaging Sullinger-type ppg.

Mason is a dominant post scorer because he can score on anyone anytime - KU's Robinson, OSU's Sullinger. The only thing limiting him is us.

I just wanted to make a slight change to that statement: The only reason he's averaging under 12 ppg is because he does not hit free throws. He averages 11.7 ppg and attempts 6 free throw per game with only about 2 being made.

Greg_Newton
01-14-2012, 08:40 PM
He has a hitch in his shot, coming part way, then after a slight hesitation, finishing with his arm/hand. He uses little arc, which further reduces his made FT's. All the confidence in the world will not solve poor technique. Right now he appears to need help getting his technique right. Without that, I doubt he will consistently hit a reasonable number of his shots. Are the coaches reluctant to assist him? I have heard that he is very receptive to other coaching, so I am wondering why nothing is getting done.

His main problem is that he's just pushing the ball towards the rim with his palm. If I were his coach, I'd forget about the basket and make him hold the ball in his fingertips and shoot it straight up by snapping his wrist until he gets control over the basic motion/spin. Not sure why the fundamentals aren't being addressed, it's not a Quincy Miller-type case where he's already a good shooter but has bad form...

gep
01-14-2012, 09:23 PM
His main problem is that he's just pushing the ball towards the rim with his palm. If I were his coach, I'd forget about the basket and make him hold the ball in his fingertips and shoot it straight up by snapping his wrist until he gets control over the basic motion/spin. Not sure why the fundamentals aren't being addressed, it's not a Quincy Miller-type case where he's already a good shooter but has bad form...

I also read somewhere that one drill is to start a couple feet from the basket, and shoot from there. Make a bunch, take a step back, do it again, and repeat until he backs up to the foul line. I also like the idea above about shooting straight up using his wrist and fingers... get control...:cool:

jipops
01-15-2012, 12:40 AM
Time for some unvarnished Wheat/"/"/"...

I didn't think either team actually played very well. It was a battle of top 25 teams in a slugfest of mediocrity.

It was a competitive game and a nice win, but the level of play was poor. If those were the second and 3rd best ACC teams, well then lets just say the league really is down.

About Mason...

Mason is a good player, and I make these comments holding his potential in high regard, but he's just not improving as he should. You look at him and it's easy to expect more. Now I'm beginning to wonder if he's reached his ceiling.

He's not getting the ball down low enough, in good enough position or rythem, and when he does, he's still only getting by with superior athletisicism. His post moves are not fluid at all. His shooting touch is bulky. And his foul shooting is just plain bad. His court awareness is average at best. He rebounds strong and is a solid defender, but certainly not a stopper.

He's not the player I thought he'd be when I first saw him, but he can still be good enough to anchor a title team if this team can find some chemistry.

At least Duke fans can relax for next season, because he's coming back. He's gonna be lucky to be considered a late first round pick,imo.

I don't understand at minimum how he can't have a catch and turn jump hook after three years. With his hops and strength he should be able to get that from 4' anytime a play was run for it.
When Duke does focus on him and gets him a feed so he can at least attack the basket, it opens the floor and the offense looks better. I'm puzzled as many are why he doesn't get more looks to score, because even if he can't get it in from the post or the line consistantly, he's sucking defenders down and drawing fouls.

This team is capable of stroking it from outside and beating anybody with individual shooting displays. But when they ever hit a team that can apply outside pressure on the ball for a full game, or just have an off shooting night, they're gonna struggle.

The lack of post offense to open things up for the shooters will get this team bounced if it doesn't improve big time before the tourney.

Just my 2cents...it is mid season after all and we're in conference posting mode now, time to sharpen the play. I'll only be able to defend myself by phone for a couple of days, be easy on me :)

I think there are a lot of aspects you aren't paying attention to and your expectations are obviously different than mine.

Mason was well known as a face up player coming out of high school and had zero back-to-the-basket game. This is a contrast from Zeller and Henson who had back-to-basket games coming in (yes Henson was a back to the basket kid in high school who hoped to play sf at the college level). In the case of Henson, his confidence is back around the paint and he is flourishing with his freakish gifts. As for Mason, with his face up game coming out of hs combined with not really having any kind of touch around the rim nor away from it, there are of course going to be some offensive challenges. What he does have is outstanding lift, length and very nice passing ability, this combination was most likely the primary driver for his high ranking coming out of high school.

No his post moves are not fluid. His footwork is really not all that great, many times it is pretty bad. But he has really learned how to use his base to get space when going up for the shot down low. Also I don't think the problem is that Mason is being ignored down low. Duke has struggled to get their offense started early and with no real creator besides a freshman who is primarily of scoring mindset, Mason has to come out a little further as the perimeter is pushed out which puts him in a less ideal position in the paint. I don't think this is any lack of development, it's just playing with the personnel that we have which is pretty darn good but does have its limitations.

What you are really discounting is Mason's defense. As a freshman his defense was just horrible, he was a total liability out there which is probably why he barely played in the '10 Final Four. He consistently missed on switches, rarely communicated, and 6-5 frontcourt guys were scoring on him when facing him up. He has made tremendous improvement in that area. I'm not saying he is a great defender now, but without that improvement Duke would be teetering on being a middle of the pack ACC team THIS year.

I think you maybe focus too much on cosmetics of the game instead of other aspects that have to be developed to actually win games. It's not as simple as throwing down to the post so shooters will just magically be open. I think we have much more of an issue with perimeter movement that can open up the post, but this again is more of a product of our personnel. Also, I believe Mason is gone to the draft after this season. He has shown a ton of improvement since his freshman year as he has had to essentially change parts of his game since arriving. UNC's two primary bigs haven't had to change their games, they have simply gained experience playing at the college level. Mason has a frame that can add even more strength, is a very good athlete, and an excellent passer. Now that he has improved defensively, uses his hands and length so well for traffic rebounds, and actually has the ability to use his left hand around the rim, he has enough established skills and potential to be a 1st round pick.

Duke's other struggles on defense have much more potential to be their demise than any kind of issue in the post.