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slower
01-09-2012, 04:03 PM
From his latest Hoop Thoughts column (regarding his Top 25):

For example, I'm not sure Duke could beat any team on this ballot right now, at least away from Cameron.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/01/09/fouls/index.html#ixzz1izt8XIxZ


He may be right.

NSDukeFan
01-09-2012, 04:05 PM
From his latest Hoop Thoughts column (regarding his Top 25):

For example, I'm not sure Duke could beat any team on this ballot right now, at least away from Cameron.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/01/09/fouls/index.html#ixzz1izt8XIxZ


He may be right.

Could any of the teams on his ballot beat Duke at Cameron?

Duvall
01-09-2012, 04:08 PM
From his latest Hoop Thoughts column (regarding his Top 25):

For example, I'm not sure Duke could beat any team on this ballot right now, at least away from Cameron.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/01/09/fouls/index.html#ixzz1izt8XIxZ


He may be right.

I'm fairly sure Seth Davis is an idiot, but then we knew that before today's column, didn't we? How much did he want to drop Duke for a conference road game in which they never trailed?

hurleyfor3
01-09-2012, 04:09 PM
I knew Seth. He has a very high opinion of himself, but I would not call him an idiot. I think he is exaggerating here, but not by much.

Bluedog
01-09-2012, 04:10 PM
The reason the Blue Devils' opponents' field goal percentages are so high is because Duke's offense has been so bad

Huh? Our offense has been so bad? I guess he meant defense. But, yes, as stated above, there haven't been really many impressive true road wins by ANY team this year. I like Seth Davis' columns, though - he at least attempts to provide interesting insights even if you don't agree with everything he says. Definitely one of the better college basketball columnists. Luke Winn's columns are the best, though.

Newton_14
01-09-2012, 04:10 PM
Hasn't Duke already beat 3 of the top 15 teams on that ballot away from Cameron? Or do those games no longer count for some odd reason?

sagegrouse
01-09-2012, 04:12 PM
From his latest Hoop Thoughts column (regarding his Top 25):

For example, I'm not sure Duke could beat any team on this ballot right now, at least away from Cameron.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/01/09/fouls/index.html#ixzz1izt8XIxZ


He may be right.

For those looking for the quote, it is in the para. beneath his poll submission on the last page. BTW there are at least 50 different topics covered here. He's a smart guy, but I wouldn't give any one topic too much importance.

sage

superdave
01-09-2012, 04:18 PM
Hasn't Duke already beat 3 of the top 15 teams on that ballot away from Cameron? Or do those games no longer count for some odd reason?

#s 7, 10, 13.

dukedoc
01-09-2012, 04:20 PM
I didn't think his comment was too too harsh, perhaps just a little bit harsh. Based on the last two games, we haven't played particularly well and are clearly more vulnerable than we were say in Hawaii. I definitely think we could beat some of the teams on the current list, but we could also very easily lose to any of them. We are in a growth and discovery phase of the season, kind of like puberty, and just like puberty, we are vulnerable. Every team goes through multiple iterations throughout the year and we are clearly struggling right now relative to our typical high standard and our solid play earlier in the year. I don't think he was discounting those wins over KU etc but was simply drawing attention to our current struggles despite the recent close W. K is also explicitly tinkering and experimenting, so some struggles shouldn't be a surprise. Hopefully we'll be fully developed come March.

Devilsfan
01-09-2012, 04:23 PM
What is it with Duke alum who were wannabe athletes? They feel compelled to write something dissing their school's team. First Feinstein now Davis. And why does he feel that the "dress for success" look is so bad. He's an elitist but sees so much good in riding a subway. Bet he has car service when he attends major events especially in the city.

OldPhiKap
01-09-2012, 04:33 PM
We did not look goot at Temple. We did not look good at Tech.

Let folks say what they want.

We'll be there in March.

-- OPK

Rich
01-09-2012, 04:39 PM
We did not look goot at Temple. We did not look good at Tech.

Let folks say what they want.

We'll be there in March.

-- OPK

Two words: Alarmingly Unathletic

Two more words: Big Deal

Billy Dat
01-09-2012, 04:48 PM
I didn't think his comment was too too harsh, perhaps just a little bit harsh. Based on the last two games, we haven't played particularly well and are clearly more vulnerable than we were say in Hawaii. I definitely think we could beat some of the teams on the current list, but we could also very easily lose to any of them. We are in a growth and discovery phase of the season, kind of like puberty, and just like puberty, we are vulnerable. Every team goes through multiple iterations throughout the year and we are clearly struggling right now relative to our typical high standard and our solid play earlier in the year. I don't think he was discounting those wins over KU etc but was simply drawing attention to our current struggles despite the recent close W. K is also explicitly tinkering and experimenting, so some struggles shouldn't be a surprise. Hopefully we'll be fully developed come March.

36-24-36? Just take out enough to win? What's the "fully developed" goal...and please answer in keeping with the puberty metaphor, which made my day.

OldPhiKap
01-09-2012, 05:06 PM
36-24-36? Just take out enough to win? What's the "fully developed" goal...and please answer in keeping with the puberty metaphor, which made my day.

"Are you there, God? It's me, Mikey."

"They Shoot Tar Heels, Don't They?"

KenTankerous
01-09-2012, 05:14 PM
Alarmingly Unathletic

Can someone, anyone, tell me what that means? I know I feel like that when I am attempting to peddle myself downtown and wind up into and over the picket fense with rose pedals in my Sanka but somehow I do not see Ryn Kelly hitting 14 of 14 or Austin's much-maligned-but-damn-its-pretty off the glass floater for his usual 15.4 looking anything like "alarmingly unathletic'.

Just like I told my UofL buddies on New Years Eve, forget it fellas, this is all pre-season warm-up, tune-ups and trial by fire. By March, Duke will be a top 8, if not final four, performer. And If I'm wrong, shoot, they still get a Duke education and get to play their home games at Cameron! How much fun must that be?

tbyers11
01-09-2012, 05:20 PM
I knew Seth. He has a very high opinion of himself, but I would not call him an idiot. I think he is exaggerating here, but not by much.


Huh? Our offense has been so bad? I guess he meant defense. But, yes, as stated above, there haven't been really many impressive true road wins by ANY team this year. I like Seth Davis' columns, though - he at least attempts to provide interesting insights even if you don't agree with everything he says. Definitely one of the better college basketball columnists. Luke Winn's columns are the best, though.

I don't know Seth personally at all but these two posts really sum up my opinion of him that I have gleaned from reading him and watching him on TV. He writes a good column and says things forcefully on his TV spots but I really don't put much stock in his hard-core basketball knowledge. I rather read Winn, Goodman, Glockner, the guys at Rush the Court, Ballin is a Habit, and Pomeroy before him.

That being said I don't think his opinion on Duke is horribly off right now. However, a couple of points. From a quick perusal of the list, I don't think a single team on the entire list has beaten another team on that list in a true road game. If you enlarge the scope to include to include neutral court games, many more W's pop-up including three by Duke.

Duke didn't look good at Temple and didn't look particularly good the last 30 minutes at GT (I thought they were quite good the first 10), but I think with increased roster turnover among the elite teams, road wins of any significance are going to be very rare early in the year (through the first few weeks of conference season) as teams struggle to find an identity.

Lord Ash
01-09-2012, 05:27 PM
We literally beat three of those teams away from Cameron. One of the most moronic things I've read.

davekay1971
01-09-2012, 05:33 PM
I don't mind Seth taking a couple of potshots at Duke. Our last 2 performances earned us some criticism, particularly as a top 10 team. I think his remark about other team's having a high FG % because of our bad offense was a typo - I suspect he meant defense, in which case he would have been right. People are lighting us up because we're not playing Duke defense, pure and simple.

As far as his comment about not being sure if Duke "could" beat any other team in the ballot in a game away from Cameron, that's just stupid. There's a big difference between saying we couldn't do that (which is ridiculous) and would have trouble doing that (which is a reasonable claim). There's also a big difference between our performances on a true away game (OSU, Ga Tech, and let's throw Temple in there, too) versus neutral court games (Kansas, Mich State). Away from Cameron includes neutral court games, and Seth is absolutely wrong to suggest we could not (or even probably would not) beat other top 25 teams away from Cameron.

Duke71
01-09-2012, 05:41 PM
Most coaches consider incendiary adverse media stuff like this to be "Godsends" to help them fire up the troops. Be thankful for this.

I had a high school coach who had to make stuff like this up - and we were gullible enough to believe him - to light the much needed fire.....:)

dukedoc
01-09-2012, 05:44 PM
36-24-36? Just take out enough to win? What's the "fully developed" goal...and please answer in keeping with the puberty metaphor, which made my day.

Rather than developing in THAT way (although I realize that's probably the more entertaining way to spin the puberty metaphor), I was actually using the puberty metaphor more along the lines of psychosocial development.

Puberty involves individuation (becoming an individual, developing autonomy, starting to make your own decisions) and identity formation (who exactly am I in the context of this crazy world?). With respect to the team, I think each year they go through a process of reverse-individuation - i.e. starting with an open hand of individuals that closes more and more over time, ultimately making the Coach K fist representing true unity. They also go through intense identity formation, figuring out what kind of team they are, who the leaders are, what the individual roles within the team are, etc. Maybe even more so this year with the loss of strong personalities and leaders in Kyle and Nolan. Anyway, the team is in development. By March the team will be ready for the senior prom, mark my words.

Norman Pfyster
01-09-2012, 05:45 PM
I don't mind Seth taking a couple of potshots at Duke. Our last 2 performances earned us some criticism, particularly as a top 10 team. I think his remark about other team's having a high FG % because of our bad offense was a typo - I suspect he meant defense, in which case he would have been right. People are lighting us up because we're not playing Duke defense, pure and simple.

I'm pretty sure he meant "offense," because the context of the statement was replacing Seth Curry as the point guard.

OldPhiKap
01-09-2012, 05:50 PM
I'm not sure I want to know how Ryan's Zoubeard, or Miles' Zoustubble, play into the whole puberty metaphor.

I usually think of teams more like tropical storms -- the tighter they are, the stronger they are. Sometimes, though, they get a little ragged and get weaker. It's all a matter of timing and chemistry.

mgtr
01-09-2012, 05:53 PM
He sounds more like a lover scorned than anything else.

captmojo
01-09-2012, 06:42 PM
... He's a smart guy, but I wouldn't give any one topic too much importance.

sage

Especially the wrong-headed theory of, "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A certainly must be better than C".

"Got it?"

uh_no
01-09-2012, 06:59 PM
Especially the wrong-headed theory of, "A beat B, B beat C, therefore A certainly must be better than C".

"Got it?"

it was a tongue in cheek condemnation of the transitive property of sports....he used an example to prove how ludicrous it can be.

Double DD
01-09-2012, 07:17 PM
I think the key words in his statement were "right now." He's certainly aware of the neutral court wins since he mentions one of them in the next sentence. I think it was just an emphatic way of stating how poor he thinks the team is currently playing. Although I certainly don't think the offense is to blame. They're ranked 50th in defensive efficiency right now on Ken Pomeroy's site. No Duke team in the last 9 years has ever been ranked outside the top 25 in defense at any point in the season.

uh_no
01-09-2012, 07:30 PM
I think the key words in his statement were "right now." He's certainly aware of the neutral court wins since he mentions one of them in the next sentence. I think it was just an emphatic way of stating how poor he thinks the team is currently playing.

That's how i read it too. We played great in maui and new york, and since have gotten blown out by OSU, beaten a few well overmatched cupcakes, lost to temple, and looked subpar against a reasonably weak (were 120 in the nation or so) GT team. It's almost a tale of two teams this year. Could it just be a case of duke was more prepared in the early going due to the china trip and now other teams are catching up? perhaps: But we better hope we find our mojo by march. If we were playing at our current quality back in november, I don't think there's any way we win in maui.

Rich
01-09-2012, 08:08 PM
Alarmingly Unathletic

Can someone, anyone, tell me what that means? I know I feel like that when I am attempting to peddle myself downtown and wind up into and over the picket fense with rose pedals in my Sanka but somehow I do not see Ryn Kelly hitting 14 of 14 or Austin's much-maligned-but-damn-its-pretty off the glass floater for his usual 15.4 looking anything like "alarmingly unathletic'.

Just like I told my UofL buddies on New Years Eve, forget it fellas, this is all pre-season warm-up, tune-ups and trial by fire. By March, Duke will be a top 8, if not final four, performer. And If I'm wrong, shoot, they still get a Duke education and get to play their home games at Cameron! How much fun must that be?

Alarmingly Unathletic. That is what Doug Gottlieb called the team in 2010 at about this time of year. As we all know, that team went on to win the National Championship. My point is that the media can say whatever they want now. We will have our say on the court come March.

Steven43
01-09-2012, 08:22 PM
What is it with these Duke alums--Feinstein, Davis, Bilas--who think they have to knock the Devils at any opportunity to somehow prove that they aren't biased towards their alma mater? It's pathetic, weak, and a cheap way to win praise. Do the other talking heads from schools like UNC, etc. do the same thing? If so, I haven't noticed it. It's one thing to make a legitimate, reasoned observation about your former school, but these alums bend over backwards to take shots at Duke. It takes a backbone to criticize your alma mater when it is deserved and likewise to praise them when praise is due. Unfortunately, they mostly do the former and very little of the latter.

cwiley
01-09-2012, 08:28 PM
What is it with these Duke alums--Feinstein, Davis, Bilas--who think they have to knock the Devils at any opportunity to somehow prove that they aren't biased towards their alma mater? It's pathetic, weak, and a cheap way to win praise. Do the other talking heads from schools like UNC, etc. do the same thing? If so, I haven't noticed it. It's one thing to make a legitimate, reasoned observation about your former school, but these alums bend over backwards to take shots at Duke. It takes a backbone to criticize your alma mater when it is deserved and likewise to praise them when praise is due. Unfortunately, they mostly do the former and very little of the latter.

What is it with Duke fans who think that every time a Duke alum in the media say something negative about Duke's team they're doing it for reasons other than their honest analysis at the time? Yes, I've heard Hubert Davis, for one, say negative things about the play of UNC or speak of how they have to change to be better. At least in the instances of Davis and Bilas, they do not "bend over backwards to take shots at Duke."

duke09hms
01-09-2012, 08:42 PM
What is it with these Duke alums--Feinstein, Davis, Bilas--who think they have to knock the Devils at any opportunity to somehow prove that they aren't biased towards their alma mater? It's pathetic, weak, and a cheap way to win praise. Do the other talking heads from schools like UNC, etc. do the same thing? If so, I haven't noticed it. It's one thing to make a legitimate, reasoned observation about your former school, but these alums bend over backwards to take shots at Duke. It takes a backbone to criticize your alma mater when it is deserved and likewise to praise them when praise is due. Unfortunately, they mostly do the former and very little of the latter.

OR they're just being honest in their criticism. Duke has certainly underperformed since getting blown out by OSU. Blowing out cupcakes, beating a mediocre Washington by 6, losing to a mediocre Temple, and struggling against a bad GT team - how do you NOT expect criticism from them? I honestly don't understand this at all.

People need to stop being so sensitive. And maybe exercise some reading comprehension. Seth reasonably qualifies his statement with "right now." If we played ranked teams away from Cameron the way we played Temple and GT, it would at BEST be a 50/50 chance of winning.

Seth still ranks us 8 after two poor games in a row.

Steven43
01-09-2012, 08:44 PM
What is it with Duke fans who think that every time a Duke alum in the media say something negative about Duke's team they're doing it for reasons other than their honest analysis at the time? Yes, I've heard Hubert Davis, for one, say negative things about the play of UNC or speak of how they have to change to be better. At least in the instances of Davis and Bilas, they do not "bend over backwards to take shots at Duke."

I did not say that EVERY time these Duke alums take a shot at Duke it isn't deserved. That does not mean they NEVER say anything positive, merely that they look for a way to spin things negatively more often than I think is deserved. And when I say they bend over backwards to take shots at Duke, I am also talking about such things as how they consistently shy away from picking us to do well in the NCAA tournament and how they talk with excessive praise about UNC--which is, I think, a direct result of their not wanting to seem biased towards Duke. When you excessively praise UNC and look for ways to not do that for Duke (even when praise should be forthcoming), you are, in effect, taking shots at Duke. Maybe I'm overstating it a bit, but I've seen too many instances through the years that show that these guys are gun-shy when it comes to Duke.

Mike Corey
01-09-2012, 09:02 PM
I knew Seth. He has a very high opinion of himself

And many on Tobacco Road and elsewhere have a very low opinion of him as a basketball analyst.

He's not so hot (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/seth_davis/03/02/mailbag/index.html#ixzz1j15jIas6)as a reporter, either. On March 3 of last year he reported:


I would be shocked if Irving ever played another game for Duke.

Why Luke Winn hasn't taken Seth Davis' gig on television is beyond me. The former is phenomenally talented, yet Mr. Davis is given the wider audience.

uh_no
01-09-2012, 09:20 PM
Alarmingly Unathletic. That is what Doug Gottlieb called the team in 2010 at about this time of year. As we all know, that team went on to win the National Championship. My point is that the media can say whatever they want now. We will have our say on the court come March.

he called them that before thanksgiving when the played uconn in the garden (about 3 weeks into the season), HUGE difference from this team which is 2 months into the season.

But the point sort of holds, in the end what the media says is always irrelevant....which is why we play the games

Newton_14
01-09-2012, 09:29 PM
he called them that before thanksgiving when the played uconn in the garden (about 3 weeks into the season), HUGE difference from this team which is 2 months into the season.

But the point sort of holds, in the end what the media says is always irrelevant....which is why we play the games

Actually it was at half-time of the Arizona St game. UConn was the very next opponent. Typical of Herb Sendek teams, ASU ran a very slow and methodical offense that night, and played a very stingy defense. Very slow-paced, uneventful game where Duke methodically grinded out the win. They turned around an pounded a very athletic UConn team even though Duke themselves shot a very low percentage from the floor that night. It seemed like Miles and Zoubs blocked about 20 shots in that game. It was incredible.

Jason let the Gottlieb comments sway him to picking UConn to win, which came back to haunt him. I still love K's response when told of the comments. One of his better smack downs.

Edit: I dug up the Coach K response. See below. Enjoy!

He should be an expert on alarmingly non‑athletic,” Krzyzewski said. “So I’ll have to take a look at that a little bit closer because it comes from an expert who actually knows what it feels like to be alarmingly non‑athletic.

“Actually, we’re pretty athletic — we’re just not as athletic as Connecticut. Singler is a really good athlete. Lance, Miles. Jon is not leaping tall buildings with a single bound but he’s a real good athlete. But I wouldn’t call us like this athletic team, but we’re not amazingly non‑athletic. And I would rather not get into a discussion with Doug because I have respect of his stature and he should have his arguments with people of similar stature. That would be a good thing.”

basket1544
01-09-2012, 09:52 PM
I don't care what Seth Davis or anyone says about Duke, but I was upset to hear what he said about Harvard. He basically has written them off because they've lost 2 games all year. I really believe Harvard is NCAA bound and I wish the media would see that.

Duvall
01-09-2012, 10:21 PM
Why Luke Winn hasn't taken Seth Davis' gig on television is beyond me. The former is phenomenally talented, yet Mr. Davis is given the wider audience.

Davis has nicer hair. You have to give him that.

Channing
01-09-2012, 10:24 PM
I'm fairly sure Seth Davis is an idiot, but then we knew that before today's column, didn't we? How much did he want to drop Duke for a conference road game in which they never trailed?

come on. We all know that not all conference road games are created equal. Georgia Tech should not have been within 20 points of Duke, but once Duke got them down, they let them right back in the game. It was a poor showing by Duke and Seth Davis called a spade a spade. Duke has not looked good lately.

I know you are not shocked that a member of the media used hyperbole to make his point...

Duvall
01-09-2012, 10:25 PM
come on. We all know that not all conference road games are created equal. Georgia Tech should not have been within 20 points of Duke...

Based on what?

Line was 11.5. Pomeroy and Sagarin predicted 11 point wins. Duke hits one more wide-open three in the first half and all this hand-wringing never takes place.

duke09hms
01-09-2012, 10:34 PM
Based on what?

Line was 11.5. Pomeroy and Sagarin predicted 11 point wins. Duke hits one more wide-open three in the first half and all this hand-wringing never takes place.

GT should certainly not have been within 3 with 41 secs left in the game before GT started fouling. GT is 7-8 going into the ACC season with blowout losses to Alabama and losses to Fordham and Mercer.

Seth is telling it like it is - Duke has played very poorly the last two games, why can't people accept that?

Duvall
01-09-2012, 10:38 PM
GT should certainly not have been within 3 with 41 secs left in the game before GT started fouling. GT is 7-8 going into the ACC season with blowout losses to Alabama and losses to Fordham and Mercer.

Seth is telling it like it is - Duke has played very poorly the last two games, why can't people accept that?

Being judging a team based on two games is dumb even for an empty suit like Seth Davis.

roywhite
01-09-2012, 10:49 PM
come on. We all know that not all conference road games are created equal. Georgia Tech should not have been within 20 points of Duke, but once Duke got them down, they let them right back in the game. It was a poor showing by Duke and Seth Davis called a spade a spade. Duke has not looked good lately.

I know you are not shocked that a member of the media used hyperbole to make his point...


GT should certainly not have been within 3 with 41 secs left in the game before GT started fouling. GT is 7-8 going into the ACC season with blowout losses to Alabama and losses to Fordham and Mercer.

Seth is telling it like it is - Duke has played very poorly the last two games, why can't people accept that?

Well, you've got the same themes and wording, I'll admit that.

Darn Georgia Tech---they didn't get the memo. Glen Rice didn't realize he was supposed to miss shots, and Udofa didn't know his role either?

I've watched ACC basketball for over 40 years; winning a road opener against a very motivated and hot shooting opponent is not a bad thing.

Kedsy
01-09-2012, 10:52 PM
No Duke team in the last 9 years has ever been ranked outside the top 25 in defense at any point in the season.

How do you know this? Past Pomeroy in-season info is not available as far as I know. In 2009 we finished 20th in defensive efficiency. You're saying there was not one point that season that we dipped below 25?

loldevilz
01-09-2012, 11:59 PM
How do you know this? Past Pomeroy in-season info is not available as far as I know. In 2009 we finished 20th in defensive efficiency. You're saying there was not one point that season that we dipped below 25?

Does that matter? We are ranked 50th right now. That is by far the worst rankings in the database for Duke. Not only that, but the defensive ranking been getting worse and worse as the season has gone on. In a few games we may be even lower. The only hope is if Coach K changes up our perimeter to improve the defense.

Kedsy
01-10-2012, 12:15 AM
Does that matter? We are ranked 50th right now. That is by far the worst rankings in the database for Duke. Not only that, but the defensive ranking been getting worse and worse as the season has gone on. In a few games we may be even lower. The only hope is if Coach K changes up our perimeter to improve the defense.

Well, it matters because (I believe) all we really know is how Duke ended up at the end of the year in defensive efficiency. Is it possible to get from 50th on January 9 to 20th on March 9? If so, have we ever done it before? I don't know, but if you don't know either, then it's a legitimate question.

You seem to think you know our "only hope." Seeing what we've seen so far from all our perimeter players, how could a change in our perimeter improve our defense? Isn't it just as likely that our perimeter players simply have to play better defense?

loldevilz
01-10-2012, 12:30 AM
Well, it matters because (I believe) all we really know is how Duke ended up at the end of the year in defensive efficiency. Is it possible to get from 50th on January 9 to 20th on March 9? If so, have we ever done it before? I don't know, but if you don't know either, then it's a legitimate question.

You seem to think you know our "only hope." Seeing what we've seen so far from all our perimeter players, how could a change in our perimeter improve our defense? Isn't it just as likely that our perimeter players simply have to play better defense?

I feel pretty confident that its very unlikely that our current lineup of Quinn, Curry, and Rivers will form into one of the best defensive backcourts in the country. Its pretty obvious they continually get burned one-on-one game after game. So No, its not just as likely that our perimeter players will just "play better defense".

duke09hms
01-10-2012, 12:38 AM
Being judging a team based on two games is dumb even for an empty suit like Seth Davis.

He qualifies his statement with "right now," making such an evaluation valid. As in, given how Duke played at GT and Temple, they would have a hard time beating most ranked teams on the road RIGHT NOW.

Please.

duke09hms
01-10-2012, 12:41 AM
Well, it matters because (I believe) all we really know is how Duke ended up at the end of the year in defensive efficiency. Is it possible to get from 50th on January 9 to 20th on March 9? If so, have we ever done it before? I don't know, but if you don't know either, then it's a legitimate question.

You seem to think you know our "only hope." Seeing what we've seen so far from all our perimeter players, how could a change in our perimeter improve our defense? Isn't it just as likely that our perimeter players simply have to play better defense?

That is true, and I hope that we end up significantly higher than we are now in defense. However, we are presently way off the pace with a ranking of 50. Hopefully, we can make a big turnaround very soon.

ncexnyc
01-10-2012, 01:06 AM
I’m curious what the board feels is a roundabout figure for the number of games that need to be played, before we say this is what this team is and will be for the rest of the season.

Instead of focusing so much attention on a defense that isn’t up to our usual standards, maybe we should be embrace who we are, and that is a team that can score with a multitude of weapons.

Basically what I’m suggesting is instead of Coach K continuing to tweak the line-up in an effort to improve the defense, maybe he should put the most potent offensive line-up on the court. Just something for your consideration and to pass the night away.

Duvall
01-10-2012, 01:11 AM
He qualifies his statement with "right now," making such an evaluation valid. As in, given how Duke played at GT and Temple, they would have a hard time beating most ranked teams on the road RIGHT NOW.

Please.

Davis can add whatever qualification he likes, it won't make an assessment based on a week's action worth very much. If you were to pass judgment on UConn based on their efforts last week, you would have to say that they were a team incapable of beating any of the top 150 teams in the country. And yet they found a way on Monday to beat West Virginia. It's almost like that small sample size wasn't very useful.

killerleft
01-10-2012, 08:58 AM
Two words: Alarmingly Unathletic

Two more words: Big Deal

Two more words: National Championship (of course!).

I say Seth has us right on target. Good boy! And I bet he even took credit for spurring us on.:)

NSDukeFan
01-10-2012, 09:14 AM
Well, it matters because (I believe) all we really know is how Duke ended up at the end of the year in defensive efficiency. Is it possible to get from 50th on January 9 to 20th on March 9? If so, have we ever done it before? I don't know, but if you don't know either, then it's a legitimate question.

You seem to think you know our "only hope." Seeing what we've seen so far from all our perimeter players, how could a change in our perimeter improve our defense? Isn't it just as likely that our perimeter players simply have to play better defense?

I think this is the case and is very possible as the guys continue to learn their roles and responsibilities. I would add the bigs can, and I hope will, be better defensively as ACC play continues. I expect that how Duke is playing after the first conference game will not be the same as how Duke will be playing after 15 more conference games and one non-conference game.

Kedsy
01-10-2012, 10:08 AM
The only hope is if Coach K changes up our perimeter to improve the defense.


I feel pretty confident that its very unlikely that our current lineup of Quinn, Curry, and Rivers will form into one of the best defensive backcourts in the country. Its pretty obvious they continually get burned one-on-one game after game. So No, its not just as likely that our perimeter players will just "play better defense".

Just because they won't form "one of the best defensive backcourts in the country" doesn't mean our team defense can't improve. You may be confident in your assessment, but what changes in our perimeter do you foresee that are more likely to improve our defense than the possibility of our current lineup simply playing better defense?

Personally, I agree that Quinn/Seth/Austin is not our best defensive perimeter. We have more size with Seth/Austin/Andre and more spunk with Tyler/Seth/Austin. Still, with Quinn and Austin both being freshmen, it's easy to envision them getting better on D. Especially since one-on-one D is not nearly as important as proper team D, and proper team D takes time to learn.

sagegrouse
01-10-2012, 10:50 AM
I’m curious what the board feels is a roundabout figure for the number of games that need to be played, before we say this is what this team is and will be for the rest of the season.

Instead of focusing so much attention on a defense that isn’t up to our usual standards, maybe we should be embrace who we are, and that is a team that can score with a multitude of weapons.

Basically what I’m suggesting is instead of Coach K continuing to tweak the line-up in an effort to improve the defense, maybe he should put the most potent offensive line-up on the court. Just something for your consideration and to pass the night away.

Well, IMHO (where the H is usually silent) K is going to "tweak away" for the rest of the season, which is the answer to your question in the first para. Duke has eight players averaging double-figure minutes and all eight have started at least one game. In fact, the bloke (Quinn) who has started only once may well be the starter for the rest of the season.

In addition, both Josh and Silent G are getting some burn from Sibilant K and playing pretty well.

My main positives for the season are (1) the big guys, who have been -- as a whole -- consistently productive; (2) Quinn, who is an offensive genius starting to learn something about defense; and (3) Austin, who has come along rapidly since the beginning of the season.

I don't want to list a negative, except to say that this team really misses Kyle and Nolan: someone has to become the rock that this team can go to in tough moments.

sagegrouse

Son of Jarhead
01-10-2012, 10:58 AM
What is it with these Duke alums--Feinstein, Davis, Bilas--who think they have to knock the Devils at any opportunity to somehow prove that they aren't biased towards their alma mater? It's pathetic, weak, and a cheap way to win praise. Do the other talking heads from schools like UNC, etc. do the same thing? If so, I haven't noticed it. It's one thing to make a legitimate, reasoned observation about your former school, but these alums bend over backwards to take shots at Duke. It takes a backbone to criticize your alma mater when it is deserved and likewise to praise them when praise is due. Unfortunately, they mostly do the former and very little of the latter.

Perhaps it is their greater personal knowledge of Duke from being here and so close to the program, and in the case of Jay Bilas, personal experience actually IN the program, that helps them pick out the mistakes made by Duke or areas in which Duke needs to improve that would be missed by someone no from Duke.

Scorp4me
01-10-2012, 01:29 PM
I've watched ACC basketball for over 40 years; winning a road opener against a very motivated and hot shooting opponent is not a bad thing.

Did you see the shots GaTech made the other night? Many...far too many were circus shots with hands in their faces. Sometimes you have a night like that...to actually still win it??? Actually I thought Temple had a hot shooting night too, although we didn't play great either. Ohio St? Well, they just crushed us.

Fact is I was more upset with the crazy shots than Duke's play. And I don't see our defense getting better starting another freshman, although our offense will hopefully get better.

sagegrouse
01-10-2012, 04:19 PM
What is it with these Duke alums--Feinstein, Davis, Bilas--who think they have to knock the Devils at any opportunity to somehow prove that they aren't biased towards their alma mater? It's pathetic, weak, and a cheap way to win praise. Do the other talking heads from schools like UNC, etc. do the same thing? If so, I haven't noticed it. It's one thing to make a legitimate, reasoned observation about your former school, but these alums bend over backwards to take shots at Duke. It takes a backbone to criticize your alma mater when it is deserved and likewise to praise them when praise is due. Unfortunately, they mostly do the former and very little of the latter.

Several points of rebuttal to arguments that appear several times a year, it seems:

1. "[K]nock th Devils at any opportunity to somehow prove that they aren't biased towards their alma mater? It's pathetic, weak, and a cheap way to win praise." i would offer that these guys are professionals at the top of their fields and have the full respect of their peers. Bilas is el primo at ESPN; Feinstein has sold more copies of books on sports than anyone else; and Seth Davis, the one whom I have never met, is clearly a star at CBS on-line and in the studio. And I don't think any of the three are saying anything other than what they truly believe. All three, BTW, are paid to give opinions -- and they do. Not all media opinions, including theirs, would survive an appeal to the Supreme Court on their factual bases. But hey -- they are opinions.

2. "Do the other talking heads from schools like UNC, etc. do the same thing?" Well, sir, I can at least give my honest opinion here. Part A is that Duke dominates the sports basketball commentator field. Not only these three, but Spanarkel, Gminski, Jason Williams, Alaa (Arab language NBA telecasts - hah!), and probably others. Which other schools have as many as two former basketball players at the same level? (Actually, UNC had two before Brad Daugherty switched to NASCAR. Then there is Kenny Smith of NBA telecasts.) Part B is that everyone who follows hoops cares about Duke (hate or love). If Doug Gottlieb roasted Okla. State, would anyone notice or care, which is why I have seldom heard him utter a sound about his alma mater -- although plenty about Duke?

3. Feinstein is a special case: insightful, outspoken, prodigious in his output. He was one of the the threesome at the WaPo whose newsroom banter sparked the idea for PTI. Guess why Kornheiser and Wilbon are on camera and not JF? Maybe he is not exactly warm and cuddly? And if you think he singles out Duke for criticism, talk to the folks at Georgetown and Maryland, or the friends of Bob Knight.

4. In-game commentators (Bilas) and even studio hosts (Davis) are paid to draw fans. One way is to promote how exciting a game is, even when it is one-sided. Thus, announcers get a little more emotional when an underdog is having a good showing or mounting a comeback (like GT Saturday). It sounds like they are pulling against Duke, when it really is the issue of the underdog. To get that to change, duke would have to start losing a lot more games than I would like to see.

5. I have been on this board for years and years. Everyone here is at least a little sensitive to criticism of Duke and we all tend to overinterpret what is said. Do you think that is what you may be doing?

6. "Pathetic, weak, and ... cheap...." Well,....

sagegrouse

Scorp4me
01-10-2012, 05:31 PM
I think you could include Hubert Davis in that group, who I generally enjoy listening to and Stuart Scott who...well, let's just say, I don't.

hurleyfor3
01-10-2012, 05:46 PM
And if you think [Feinstein] singles out Duke for criticism, talk to the folks at Georgetown and Maryland, or the friends of Bob Knight.

You know how when cartoon characters get mad, their eyes turn red and steam comes out of their ears and makes a whistle sound? That's what Kentucky fans do when you mention Feinstein's name. Feinstein, and Kentucky fans, are worth having around just for that reason.

jv001
01-10-2012, 05:58 PM
I think you could include Hubert Davis in that group, who I generally enjoy listening to and Stuart Scott who...well, let's just say, I don't.

I'll take the heel guys over Len Elmore any day/night of the week. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
01-10-2012, 06:50 PM
If, in August, you had been told that Mason would be a 12 and 10 guy with a reliable hook shot, Cook and Thornton would step up to be an effective point guard duo (with Cook sporting an excellent A:TO ratio), Rivers would fit in well enough that he would lead the team in plus/minus and scoring fifteen games into the season, BUT Coach K's biggest challenge would be to fix the defense during the season -- wouldn't everyone here have taken that scenario in a heartbeat?

Put another way. Assume for a second that you have the power to build a college basketball team from thin air. However, you can't make that team perfect in every way -- that is, you MUST assign weaknesses in some areas. Wouldn't the current Duke team be among your favorite configurations? I mean, we have it pretty good, guys. In addition to the aformentioned, we have two of the best 3-pt shooters in the country, an effective 3-man post rotation and at least 8 guys who can play regularly. In many of our recent seasons, we'd have killed to have some of the strengths that this team possesses.

I don't know for a fact that the defense will be fixed. And maybe the perimeter size will end up being a fatal flaw. But, at this point in time -- early January, one game into the conference season -- I see no reason not to be pretty happy with where this team is at and the raw talent that it possesses.

Kedsy
01-10-2012, 07:19 PM
If, in August, you had been told that Mason would be a 12 and 10 guy with a reliable hook shot, Cook and Thornton would step up to be an effective point guard duo (with Cook sporting an excellent A:TO ratio), Rivers would fit in well enough that he would lead the team in plus/minus and scoring fifteen games into the season, BUT Coach K's biggest challenge would be to fix the defense during the season -- wouldn't everyone here have taken that scenario in a heartbeat?

Put another way. Assume for a second that you have the power to build a college basketball team from thin air. However, you can't make that team perfect in every way -- that is, you MUST assign weaknesses in some areas. Wouldn't the current Duke team be among your favorite configurations? I mean, we have it pretty good, guys. In addition to the aformentioned, we have two of the best 3-pt shooters in the country, an effective 3-man post rotation and at least 8 guys who can play regularly. In many of our recent seasons, we'd have killed to have some of the strengths that this team possesses.

I don't know for a fact that the defense will be fixed. And maybe the perimeter size will end up being a fatal flaw. But, at this point in time -- early January, one game into the conference season -- I see no reason not to be pretty happy with where this team is at and the raw talent that it possesses.

For me, the answer to your question would depend on how likely it is the defense would get fixed. Because to me, defense is more important than offense. I would personally trade a lot (not all, but a lot) of our offense for killer, lockdown D.

Double DD
01-10-2012, 08:18 PM
How do you know this? Past Pomeroy in-season info is not available as far as I know. In 2009 we finished 20th in defensive efficiency. You're saying there was not one point that season that we dipped below 25?

I've been following his stuff for a long time and keep track of anything significant. I did make an error in my post though as I've only been tracking for the past 6 seasons. And actually the lowest I have them recorded as being ranked is 20th not 25th now that I've actually looked it up. And that 20th ranking in 2009 was the lowest they got that year as the defense tanked in the second half in conference play and after the lineup shakeup that made Elliot Williams a starter. The 05-06 squad also hit 20th at one point.

Edit: Oh, and if anyone is wondering, the only time Duke's been out of the top 20 in offensive efficiency is the 06-07 season where they spent almost the entire season out of the top 20 and dropped as low as 60th. That Duke squad also spent 90% of the season at #1 in defensive efficiency and had the best in-season defensive efficiency numbers since I've kept track.

flyingdutchdevil
01-11-2012, 09:40 AM
For me, the answer to your question would depend on how likely it is the defense would get fixed. Because to me, defense is more important than offense. I would personally trade a lot (not all, but a lot) of our offense for killer, lockdown D.

This. As the old saying goes, "Offense wins games, defense wins tournaments."

I don't know about you, but it feels so strange having a Duke team that is significantly more advanced in offense than defense.

Class of '94
01-11-2012, 11:44 AM
Will Seth Davis slam Ohio State like he did Duke for poor road performances or be a hypocrite? Obviously, there is no shame in losing to Kansas and Indiana on the road; but OSU struggled against South Carolina on the road and lost to Illinois last night. IMO, OSU is significantly stronger at home than away from Columbus; and their current road record is 2-3. While duke is 1-2 in playing true road games, I don't think there's shame in losing to OSU and Temple on the road. That said, it was the way Duke lost to those teams on the road that is disconcerting; but nevertheless, Duke has only lost 2 games so far while playing a brutal schedule up to this point.

sagegrouse
01-11-2012, 12:22 PM
Will Seth Davis slam Ohio State like he did Duke for poor road performances or be a hypocrite? Obviously, there is no shame in losing to Kansas and Indiana on the road; but OSU struggled against South Carolina on the road and lost to Illinois last night. IMO, OSU is significantly stronger at home than away from Columbus; and their current road record is 2-3. While duke is 1-2 in playing true road games, I don't think there's shame in losing to OSU and Temple on the road. That said, it was the way Duke lost to those teams on the road that is disconcerting; but nevertheless, Duke has only lost 2 games so far while playing a brutal schedule up to this point.


Is this really a slam? I am not so sure. This is a "fer instance" about how hard it was to put together his ballot. I think it can be read as a throw-away line. Or, would you prefer the term, obiter dicta?


You probably assumed that because so many ranked teams lost last week that a lot of them would move down. But it was hard to move most of them too far down because ... so many ranked teams lost that week. Once again, I started my ballot in a punitive mood, but ended up being Seth the Merciful.

For example, I'm not sure Duke could beat any team on this ballot right now, at least away from Cameron. The Blue Devils lost at unranked Temple and then nearly got clipped by a pretty woeful Georgia Tech team in Atlanta. However, at least they were competitive in those games. Missouri got absolutely embarrassed in its first legitimate road test of the season, and Duke already beat Kansas in Hawaii -- the same Kansas team that lost a de facto home game to Davidson in Kansas City. So Duke landed safely at No. 8.

See what I mean?

Moreover, this was paragraph 53 of an uber-long blog. Not exactly, the first thing on his mind, would you say?

sagegrouse

loldevilz
01-11-2012, 02:32 PM
If, in August, you had been told that Mason would be a 12 and 10 guy with a reliable hook shot, Cook and Thornton would step up to be an effective point guard duo (with Cook sporting an excellent A:TO ratio), Rivers would fit in well enough that he would lead the team in plus/minus and scoring fifteen games into the season, BUT Coach K's biggest challenge would be to fix the defense during the season -- wouldn't everyone here have taken that scenario in a heartbeat?

Put another way. Assume for a second that you have the power to build a college basketball team from thin air. However, you can't make that team perfect in every way -- that is, you MUST assign weaknesses in some areas. Wouldn't the current Duke team be among your favorite configurations? I mean, we have it pretty good, guys. In addition to the aformentioned, we have two of the best 3-pt shooters in the country, an effective 3-man post rotation and at least 8 guys who can play regularly. In many of our recent seasons, we'd have killed to have some of the strengths that this team possesses.

I don't know for a fact that the defense will be fixed. And maybe the perimeter size will end up being a fatal flaw. But, at this point in time -- early January, one game into the conference season -- I see no reason not to be pretty happy with where this team is at and the raw talent that it possesses.

We have pieces that other teams would like but we are also missing pieces that other Duke teams had. We don't have a good on ball defender. We don't have an athletic powerforward who can defend and we don't have a versatile wing. This team clearly can score the ball, but being able to score the ball isn't an advantage when you can't stop the other team from scoring the ball.

gwlaw99
01-11-2012, 03:31 PM
Put another way. Assume for a second that you have the power to build a college basketball team from thin air. However, you can't make that team perfect in every way -- that is, you MUST assign weaknesses in some areas. Wouldn't the current Duke team be among your favorite configurations? I mean, we have it pretty good, guys. In addition to the aformentioned, we have two of the best 3-pt shooters in the country, an effective 3-man post rotation and at least 8 guys who can play regularly. In many of our recent seasons, we'd have killed to have some of the strengths that this team possesses.


I am not sure I would build a team with a freshman who rarely plays as the only small forward or without one really good on-ball defender (although Cook and Rivers are getting better). In other words, put Kyle and Nolan on this year's team :)