Austin Rivers

[NYC Duke Fan]

A good friend of mine asked me to ask other Duke fans what they thought about Austin Rivers. Do you think he is, 1- As good as you expected, 2- not as good as you expected or 3- Better than you expected. I said that it was a little too early to give any valid answer, but I thought I would ask anyway.

[dukelifer]

A good friend of mine asked me to ask other Duke fans what they thought about Austin Rivers. Do you think he is, 1- As good as you expected, 2- not as good as you expected or 3- Better than you expected. I said that it was a little too early to give any valid answer, but I thought I would ask anyway.

1,2 and 3- all depends on what part of his game you are talking about. And it is too early to give a valid answer.

[Jderf]

1,2 and 3- all depends on what part of his game you are talking about. And it is too early to give a valid answer.

I really just don't understand it. There is so much general reservation about Austin Rivers, despite the fact that he is actually quietly leading this team. As a freshman. He is leading in scoring, something a freshman hasn't done at Duke in over TWO DECADES. He's also chipping in 2.7 rebounds, 2 assists, and 1 steal per game. They may not quite be Kevin Durant's numbers, but he has been the most steady and reliable presence on the team. I just can't see how he has done anything but exceed expectations. Even his play on defense, though not quite at a Nolan Smith level, is decent. And his constantly criticized turnover rate? It is a less-than-desirable 2.3 per game, but still no worse than two of our other primary ballhandlers: Mason (2.3) and Seth (2.8). And while being, again, our most steady player, he has constantly and publicly reaffirmed that his game is far from perfect and that he is constantly striving for improvement. And rather than whine about all this unfair criticism, he has accepted it as legitimate, and uses it as motivation. It's astonishing, really, when you think about it.

So what's not to like? Is it his body language? Or the little competitive sneer he does sometimes? Or is it his "edginess?" I don't know. But to me, it seems unjustified. Keep it up Austin.

(Clearly I'm very emotional about this ;))

[jimsumner]

A good friend of mine asked me to ask other Duke fans what they thought about Austin Rivers. Do you think he is, 1- As good as you expected, 2- not as good as you expected or 3- Better than you expected. I said that it was a little too early to give any valid answer, but I thought I would ask anyway.

My answer would be that it is early January and he is a freshman.

[mgtr]

My answer is simple: He is not Kyrie Irving. I have watched a couple of Cavalier games, and Kyrie is gold. He has a multi pronged attack -- he can make a 3, make a layup though traffic, and feed the post after a drive. He makes very good decisions.
Now Austin is talented and appears to be a smart guy. So he needs to learn which of these three options to exercise on a given possession. He has demonstrated that he can accomplish all three, the problem is for hin to decide which to emply and when. He also needs to learn how to carry the ball on his hip for protection, a la Kyrie and then Nolan Smith.
I believe that by tournament time, Austin will have learned these things.

[JNort]

At this point in the season this is exactly how I thought Austin would be doing. Now I do expect him to become a little more consistent and raise his scoring a bit I also expect his play making (for others). Only disappointing thing to me so far has been his attitude. I knew he had a bad one coming in and figured he would get straightened out fairly quick but it still seems to be a work in progress. Ask for a final analysis come tourny time.

[dukelifer]

I really just don't understand it. There is so much general reservation about Austin Rivers, despite the fact that he is actually quietly leading this team. As a freshman. He is leading in scoring, something a freshman hasn't done at Duke in over TWO DECADES. He's also chipping in 2.7 rebounds, 2 assists, and 1 steal per game. They may not quite be Kevin Durant's numbers, but he has been the most steady and reliable presence on the team. I just can't see how he has done anything but exceed expectations. Even his play on defense, though not quite at a Nolan Smith level, is decent. And his constantly criticized turnover rate? It is a less-than-desirable 2.3 per game, but still no worse than two of our other primary ballhandlers: Mason (2.3) and Seth (2.8). And while being, again, our most steady player, he has constantly and publicly reaffirmed that his game is far from perfect and that he is constantly striving for improvement. And rather than whine about all this unfair criticism, he has accepted it as legitimate, and uses it as motivation. It's astonishing, really, when you think about it.

So what's not to like? Is it his body language? Or the little competitive sneer he does sometimes? Or is it his "edginess?" I don't know. But to me, it seems unjustified. Keep it up Austin.

(Clearly I'm very emotional about this ;))


I would have answered this way for most Freshman. They are Freshman and still have much to work on. This is not a knock on Austin but rather just the way it is for a Freshman. His decision making is still not great. His free throw shooting is not as good as I expected and needs to be better. That said- he is explosive- he is the best driver on the team and is a very good albeit streaky shooter. He still needs to work on his shooting mechanics. His D is actually a bit better than I expected. He is much better than Nolan was a Freshman and we saw what happened with him with time. Austin is going to be a great player- he just has to work on his game- which I am sure he will do.

[Aditya]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/teams/dau/stats

Austin is shooting 40% from the three point line, he's scoring 14.7 points off 11.1 field goal attempts per game, he's clutch, and he has played 15 college basketball games in his entire career. I don't see how people can have huge complaints. Sometimes I find myself wishing he would drive and pass the ball to an open three point shooter like Jordan, but then I realize I'm comparing him to Michael Jordan.

[Newton_14]

At this point in the season this is exactly how I thought Austin would be doing. Now I do expect him to become a little more consistent and raise his scoring a bit I also expect his play making (for others). Only disappointing thing to me so far has been his attitude. I knew he had a bad one coming in and figured he would get straightened out fairly quick but it still seems to be a work in progress. Ask for a final analysis come tourny time.

This is where I feel many have missed the boat. The whole "Austin has an attitude" myth. I don't see it at all. He is a competitive kid who hate losing, and hates it when he makes a mistake. That's it. Guys with "attitudes" are not coachable. Every report has suggested that Austin soaks up every bit of the instruction he gets from the coaching staff. I have yet to see him so much as give a coach a bad look, let alone mouth back.

I think people are totally misreading the kid with the bad attitude suggestions. I have seen nothing of the sort in person or on TV. What I have seen is a kid who has greatly improved in just about every aspect of the game since game 1. I think he has gotten off to a great start in his freshman season.

[Starter]

At this point in the season this is exactly how I thought Austin would be doing. Now I do expect him to become a little more consistent and raise his scoring a bit I also expect his play making (for others). Only disappointing thing to me so far has been his attitude. I knew he had a bad one coming in and figured he would get straightened out fairly quick but it still seems to be a work in progress. Ask for a final analysis come tourny time.

I see nothing out of the ordinary with Rivers' attitude. No major blowups, always plays hard, evolving as a player. He'll pout at the refs a bit, but so does his coach.

I'll tell you what I like: his defense. I know Rice lit Duke up, but the majority of those were very difficult shots defended well by Rivers, the last three-pointer notwithstanding. I love watching his development, and the fact that he has contoured his game perfectly to this team. He also had arguably the play of the game when he picked off that late pass and took it the distance. I love watching him play and he figures to get better and better; I just wonder if he gets good enough that we don't have him next year.

[Olympic Fan]

Am I in a time warp:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=43072

[roywhite]

I see nothing out of the ordinary with Rivers' attitude. No major blowups, always plays hard, evolving as a player. He'll pout at the refs a bit, but so does his coach.

I'll tell you what I like: his defense. I know Rice lit Duke up, but the majority of those were very difficult shots defended well by Rivers, the last three-pointer notwithstanding. I love watching his development, and the fact that he has contoured his game perfectly to this team. He also had arguably the play of the game when he picked off that late pass and took it the distance. I love watching him play and he figures to get better and better; I just wonder if he gets good enough that we don't have him next year.

Yeah, that's about the way I see it, too. Austin's defense has come a long way and he's simply a great competitor who wants to make winning plays in late game situations.

Just use some better judgment on those drives to the basket. He's getting stripped occasionally (ball poked from behind a couple times vs Tech) and either missing badly or getting blocked on some other forays. I would assume he'll adjust, maybe look to drop off the ball more frequently. Exciting player; I'm glad he's on our side.

[sagegrouse]

This is where I feel many have missed the boat. The whole "Austin has an attitude" myth. I don't see it at all. He is a competitive kid who hate losing, and hates it when he makes a mistake. That's it. Guys with "attitudes" are not coachable. Every report has suggested that Austin soaks up every bit of the instruction he gets from the coaching staff. I have yet to see him so much as give a coach a bad look, let alone mouth back.

I think people are totally misreading the kid with the bad attitude suggestions. I have seen nothing of the sort in person or on TV. What I have seen is a kid who has greatly improved in just about every aspect of the game since game 1. I think he has gotten off to a great start in his freshman season.

I agree completely. Moreover, Bobby Hurley didn't have "an attitude" either. He had a natural facial expression that was a cross between pouty and sullen. It looked like he was always angry. He wasn't -- but he was hyper-competitive. Similarly with Austin, whose facial expressions are benign compared with Bobby.

sage

[MCFinARL]

My answer is simple: He is not Kyrie Irving. I have watched a couple of Cavalier games, and Kyrie is gold. He has a multi pronged attack -- he can make a 3, make a layup though traffic, and feed the post after a drive. He makes very good decisions.
Now Austin is talented and appears to be a smart guy. So he needs to learn which of these three options to exercise on a given possession. He has demonstrated that he can accomplish all three, the problem is for hin to decide which to emply and when. He also needs to learn how to carry the ball on his hip for protection, a la Kyrie and then Nolan Smith.
I believe that by tournament time, Austin will have learned these things.

This. It is really unfair, but I think many people expect Austin to somehow make up for the year we lost with Kyrie. Not only do they expect Austin to be as good as Kyrie was in those 8 early season games--even though Austin is a very different player with a very different high school experience, and even though Kyrie appeared to be exceptionally mature for his age, beyond any reasonable expectation--but they expect Austin to be as good as we imagine Kyrie was going to be in the 20-odd games we didn't ever see him play. Granted, Kyrie Irving appeared to be a great basketball player, and he has shown a lot of promise in his early NBA games; but we don't actually know that he would have been all that through an entire season of college ball, including conference games. Maybe he would have had bad days. Maybe he would have made some bad decisions from time to time. Maybe he would even have gotten visibly frustrated from time to time when calls went against him. Maybe he would have been a normal 18-year-old boy.

I think if we judge Austin against a general standard of freshman basketball players he is doing great--let's do that and not put the weight of Kyrie's toe injury on his shoulders (or, maybe, his feet).

[Steven43]

I wish Austin Rivers well and I want him to become a great player. Because of his ability to get around people and to go from point A to point B faster than the person who is guarding him he has the potential to be a devastating offensive force. However, as just about everyone has pointed out he needs to learn how to set up others with a pass while he is driving to the basket and he would benefit from diversifying his shots when he does keep it and attack the basket. How many times can you try to make your shots off the glass? Also, until he learns how to shoot the ball--jumpers and free throws--without splaying both elbows out wide he will never be a consistent shooter. I am stunned that no one--including his father, his high school and pre-high school coaches, and his coaches at Duke--has been able to help him correct this fundamental flaw. Maybe he's just stubborn about continuing to shoot it the way he is used to doing. I wish Ray Allen or JJ could find the time to work with him. I'd hate to see such a superior talent not get realized.

[JNort]

This is where I feel many have missed the boat. The whole "Austin has an attitude" myth. I don't see it at all. He is a competitive kid who hate losing, and hates it when he makes a mistake. That's it. Guys with "attitudes" are not coachable. Every report has suggested that Austin soaks up every bit of the instruction he gets from the coaching staff. I have yet to see him so much as give a coach a bad look, let alone mouth back.

I think people are totally misreading the kid with the bad attitude suggestions. I have seen nothing of the sort in person or on TV. What I have seen is a kid who has greatly improved in just about every aspect of the game since game 1. I think he has gotten off to a great start in his freshman season.


I see nothing out of the ordinary with Rivers' attitude. No major blowups, always plays hard, evolving as a player. He'll pout at the refs a bit, but so does his coach.


I did not mean for it to sound like he was a ticking time bomb. I am merely saying he could cut out all the pointing and facial expressions after EVERY call that he does not like (That is your coaches job). He also does the same thing Cam Newton of the Panthers takes a lot of criticism for and that is as soon as he goes out he kinda sulks and either a puts a towel over himself i or takes the towel and throws it at the ground. He is competitive and I really am not bothered by these things but the media is always looking at your every move and listening to your every word and I just do not want Duke being brought up in the media in that manner.

[mkline09]

Once upon a time coaches use to love to say the phrase the best thing about freshman is that they will be sophomores. Unfortunately that isn't really the case these days with one and dones.

Freshman are coming into the college game much more prepared to contribute. Year round basketball for better or for worse has made freshman more conditioned physically (maybe not so much mentally) to play Division I basketball right away. And as a result kids come in stay there year and go on to the promised land. Some with great success, others not so much.

Austin Rivers has a combination of pedigree and an already vast amount of playing experience. He is physically ready to play at this level. I've been pleased with his progress so far, realizing that he was in the unfortunate position in terms of perceptions (publicly- by media and fans) of coming to a program that is constantly under the microscope. If he didn't live up to all the hype he would be criticised to no end. Think Harrison Barnes early last season. Rivers seems like a kid that doesn't shy away from the challenge. He isn't afraid of being hated or at the very least strongly disliked. I applaud him for having the courage to come to Duke, take those expectations on his shoulder and not back down from it. His game is evolving despite the impatience of some out there that want him to be Kyrie Irving or some other amazing day-one talent. My evaluation of him is that he is very good but it is unfair to compare him to anyone much less Kyrie Irving. They aren't even close to the same player and trying to compare him doesn't allow his game to mature and grow naturally.

That isn't to say that Austin isn't good or isn't capable of being on the same level as Kyrie Irving, but he just isn't there yet. He needs more time. Honestly I think he could use another year to develop his all around game. He is getting there physically but he still needs some work mentally on his game on both ends of the floor. He, maybe for the first time ever, playing truly competive basketball with guys who are at least as good if not better than he is. This is new to him. No disrespect to his former high school teammates, but he has never played with guys he can depend on to score and take shots away from him, he has been that guy. And everyone of us knows that the AAU circuit is more of an offensive showcase than truely good, all-around basketball. So I think it has taken him awhile to adjust, but it isn't like he is stinking up the joint. He is the team's leading scorer, he is learning to contribute in other ways too. He has had some off games offensively, but that happens to the best of them. It will come and when it does look out. I expect hims to potentially blow up as the season progresses. Maybe he will want to stay another year, maybe he won't. Either way his game has upside and he is wearing a Duke uniform. And since he is I will support the kid as part of the program that I support. Those that ask about what we think of him in my opinion are just looking for something to talk about and trying to get Duke fans to talk trash about their own. I'll save that for other fan bases to do, I for one will support him whether he is averaging 18 points or 8 and I think most everyone here will too as long as the kid has a good attitude and is giving it his all.

[dukeballboy88]

AR is top 3 freshman in the nation and he is first team all acc right now. I think he needs the ball in his hands more.

Kyrie was handed the keys to a Ferrari, my numbers wouldve looked good playing along side Kyle and Nolan. Senior leadership can make a difference.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Think Harrison Barnes early last season.

Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing. Because of a variety of factors, a lot of freshman these days are overhyped and unrealistic expectations are created. Did Barnes start out the season playing poorly last year? No, but he faced the exact same scrutiny that Rivers is now facing. It takes time for most kids to adapt their high school skills to the college game.

Rivers is not the problem here, unrealistic expectations are.

[House G]

I wish Austin Rivers well and I want him to become a great player. Because of his ability to get around people and to go from point A to point B faster than the person who is guarding him he has the potential to be a devastating offensive force. However, as just about everyone has pointed out he needs to learn how to set up others with a pass while he is driving to the basket and he would benefit from diversifying his shots when he does keep it and attack the basket. How many times can you try to make your shots off the glass? Also, until he learns how to shoot the ball--jumpers and free throws--without splaying both elbows out wide he will never be a consistent shooter. I am stunned that no one--including his father, his high school and pre-high school coaches, and his coaches at Duke--has been able to help him correct this fundamental flaw. Maybe he's just stubborn about continuing to shoot it the way he is used to doing. I wish Ray Allen or JJ could find the time to work with him. I'd hate to see such a superior talent not get realized.

Maybe he's like Jim Furyk.

[weezie]

I'm surprised this thread is even flying here. I sure hope AR is sleeping well, training well, preparing to take on the 'hoos Thursday night and absolutely not reading DBR.

[BluDvlsN1]

I'm surprised this thread is even flying here. I sure hope AR is sleeping well, training well, preparing to take on the 'hoos Thursday night and absolutely not reading DBR.

I'm in absolute agreement with the above quote!!


Let's not mistake singular focus and competitiveness as anything but what it is!! He's got it!
From our bleacher seats, he's done everything that's been asked of him and is growing into the college game in great strides!

He moved into a college program with a lot of options/talent from a situation where he was THE guy, and he has adjusted and is a good teammate!

He was asked to be the primary ball handler and he did it and was learning to adjust to that roll!

He was asked to adjust in mid-stream to being on the wing(more natural) position, and he is adjusting to the benefit of the team and at the expense of his own stats! When he finds that balance and it won't be long, It will be something to see!

He has been working on his defense and it is evident in his effort and effectiveness!

Like the whole squad he is a work in progress,

I submit that if his look and body language are to be interpreted, it should be as a youngster that is determined to elevate his game to his own benefit and the teams!!

Our fan expectations should be tempered with what ?... He is A 18ish yr old freshman that has made the biggest leap of his young and bright career!!!

I know we all wish him well, he is an integral finger in the fist.... If you will ?

Just one guy's opinion

[Steven43]

Maybe he's like Jim Furyk.
???? Please explain the Furyk reference, as I don't follow golf very much.

[Steven43]

I'm surprised this thread is even flying here. I sure hope AR is sleeping well, training well, preparing to take on the 'hoos Thursday night and absolutely not reading DBR.

What's wrong with this thread? Austin has gotten many compliments to go along with some constructive criticism. Every Duke fan likes him and hopes that he fulfills his vast potential, at least I would imagine that is the case.

[gumbomoop]

I'm with those who are pleased with Austin's progress, and think his D is coming along pretty well. I have one constructive criticism, which I can make best by citing a couple of earlier posts in this thread.


[Kyrie] can make a 3, make a layup though traffic, and feed the post after a drive. He makes very good decisions.

Now Austin is talented and appears to be a smart guy. So he needs to learn which of these three options to exercise on a given possession.


... he would benefit from diversifying his shots when he does keep it and attack the basket.

A friendly amendment to these points: Austin has a 4th option, which he too seldom employs - the mid-range jumper. His handle is so good that he might occasionally do an ankle-break crossover and then stop and pop. Not a tear-drop or floater, which is maybe his current 4th option. While the tear-drop/floater is a thing of beauty, I wonder whether Austin uses this is a sort of substitute for a more traditional mid-range jumper. A single defender has big trouble keeping in front of Austin, so it strikes me that he could get a Gerald Henderson-like mid-jumper pretty consistently. Maybe not as high as Gerald, but more open.

Naturally an uncontested layup is a way-better %-shot than a contested jumper. But in Austin's case, I wonder whether sometimes an uncontested mid-jumper is a somewhat better %-shot than a heavily contested drive.

[sagegrouse]

???? Please explain the Furyk reference, as I don't follow golf very much.

Evidently, House G is on to more constructive activities; so I will answer. Furyk has a looped backswing. When he takes the club back, it reaches its full height way forward and over the ball, then he drops it into a natural hitting position. He has done it his entire career. When one prospective college coach said he was gonna change his swing, the Furyks crossed the school off the list.

sage

[roywhite]

I'm with those who are pleased with Austin's progress, and think his D is coming along pretty well. I have one constructive criticism, which I can make best by citing a couple of earlier posts in this thread.



A friendly amendment to these points: Austin has a 4th option, which he too seldom employs - the mid-range jumper. His handle is so good that he might occasionally do an ankle-break crossover and then stop and pop. Not a tear-drop or floater, which is maybe his current 4th option. While the tear-drop/floater is a thing of beauty, I wonder whether Austin uses this is a sort of substitute for a more traditional mid-range jumper. A single defender has big trouble keeping in front of Austin, so it strikes me that he could get a Gerald Henderson-like mid-jumper pretty consistently. Maybe not as high as Gerald, but more open.

Naturally an uncontested layup is a way-better %-shot than a contested jumper. But in Austin's case, I wonder whether sometimes an uncontested mid-jumper is a somewhat better %-shot than a heavily contested drive.

Yes, good point.

I do think that on Austin's heavily contested drives, he has some expectations of drawing fouls as well as making the shot. Just based on his own reactions, seems like he feels those calls are being missed somewhat. That, too, can be something that is learned to a degree....just how often or in what circumstances is he likely to get a foul called when he goes strong to the hoop?

Henderson is a good example for the value of the mid-range shot off the drive. So, too, is Nolan Smith, but we can see that skill took a while for Nolan to pick up.

[dcdevil2009]

Is Austin the most talented player on this team? Yes. Does he have more room to his ceiling than anyone else on the team? I'd say it's close. It's not a knock on Austin, but rather a comment on how much potential the kid has. He actually reminds me of Josh McRoberts in this respect. At times he (Josh) was the best player on the floor, but he was frustrating to watch because it was obvious that he had so much more potential. I feel the same way about Austin. He's a freshman (albeit an incredibly talented one) and I know it's not fair to expect him to be completely polished, but because I know he'll put it together eventually, I want him to put it together now. So yes, Austin has lived up to his ranking as one of the top freshman in the country, but no, he's not where I (probably unfairly) wanted him to be by now.

[gumbomoop]

I do think that on Austin's heavily contested drives, he has some expectations of drawing fouls as well as making the shot.

Also a good point. I do recommend more diversity for him, especially re the pull-up, as it just seems obvious that his defender usually can't stop him from getting a jumper.

My concern, shared by probably all posters, is the drive-no-matter-how-crowded-things-are. In too many of those cases, he never gets to the rim, and thus never gets a chance for the traditional 3-pt-play. I do agree with you that he's looking for the foul. Not to mention agreeing with Austin that he's been fouled a few times when it wasn't called!

[Steven43]

Also a good point. I do recommend more diversity for him, especially re the pull-up, as it just seems obvious that his defender usually can't stop him from getting a jumper.

My concern, shared by probably all posters, is the drive-no-matter-how-crowded-things-are. In too many of those cases, he never gets to the rim, and thus never gets a chance for the traditional 3-pt-play. I do agree with you that he's looking for the foul. Not to mention agreeing with Austin that he's been fouled a few times when it wasn't called!

I'm surprised that he's constantly looking for fouls considering his not-so-good free throw shooting. I'm just thankful Mason doesn't have that mindset! We kid because we like them so much.

[devil84]

I'm surprised this thread is even flying here. I sure hope AR is sleeping well, training well, preparing to take on the 'hoos Thursday night and absolutely not reading DBR.


What's wrong with this thread? Austin has gotten many compliments to go along with some constructive criticism. Every Duke fan likes him and hopes that he fulfills his vast potential, at least I would imagine that is the case.

We frown on grading or rating Duke players. Remember how Coach K wasn't happy with the Chronicle for grading the players a number of years ago? We agree with Coach K's opinion that only the staff should be issuing grades for individual players.

The OP asked for a rating and the community has deliberately kept the discussion away from giving a rating, instead turning it into a discussion of praise and constructive criticism of Austin's game so far. That's exactly what we hope for here.

[captmojo]

Just use some better judgment on those drives to the basket. He's getting stripped occasionally (ball poked from behind a couple times vs Tech) and either missing badly or getting blocked on some other forays. I would assume he'll adjust, maybe look to drop off the ball more frequently. Exciting player; I'm glad he's on our side.

I'd like to see him dribble the ball a little closer to the floor so as to limit those reach-in poke-outs, and kick out for an open 3 occasionally. The change in his offensive role takes time and practice to achieve success. He will learn when his advantage is there, and when the door has closed. Film study will be key. He's not the only driving player on this team that, at times, seems to have blinders on.

[MCFinARL]

Evidently, House G is on to more constructive activities; so I will answer. Furyk has a looped backswing. When he takes the club back, it reaches its full height way forward and over the ball, then he drops it into a natural hitting position. He has done it his entire career. When one prospective college coach said he was gonna change his swing, the Furyks crossed the school off the list.

sage

Thanks for this explanation. This actually raises an interesting question--when is it a good idea to try to change someone's swing/shot/passing motion/etc., and when is it better to leave well enough alone? I wouldn't want to venture a guess about whether this idea applies to Austin Rivers, but some people actually do themselves more harm than good when they try to replace unorthodox technique with "correct" technique, because the unorthodox way is the way they are good at doing whatever it is. I'm guessing it takes a lot of judgment and some sensitivity to individual talents and personalities for coaches and athletes to know how to approach this kind of issue.

[Newton_14]

This. It is really unfair, but I think many people expect Austin to somehow make up for the year we lost with Kyrie. Not only do they expect Austin to be as good as Kyrie was in those 8 early season games--even though Austin is a very different player with a very different high school experience, and even though Kyrie appeared to be exceptionally mature for his age, beyond any reasonable expectation--but they expect Austin to be as good as we imagine Kyrie was going to be in the 20-odd games we didn't ever see him play. Granted, Kyrie Irving appeared to be a great basketball player, and he has shown a lot of promise in his early NBA games; but we don't actually know that he would have been all that through an entire season of college ball, including conference games. Maybe he would have had bad days. Maybe he would have made some bad decisions from time to time. Maybe he would even have gotten visibly frustrated from time to time when calls went against him. Maybe he would have been a normal 18-year-old boy.

I think if we judge Austin against a general standard of freshman basketball players he is doing great--let's do that and not put the weight of Kyrie's toe injury on his shoulders (or, maybe, his feet).

Good post. I would add, they also expect him to have the same personality as Kyrie, which is also unfair. Kyrie was a very playful, jokester type kid who would smile at you while dropping 28 on you. Austin has a totally different personality. He seems a bit more serious minded, but like any other 19 yr old kid, Austin probably enjoys cutting up and having fun as much as the next guy. He doesn't openly show that side the way Kyrie did. There's nothing wrong with that.

[Devilsfan]

Kyrie might have been the prankster type but when he was on the court he was our leader. He was in charge. No "Sheed" type antics, no denial of committing a foul, no pouting. He was much more outwardly mature. You can call AR intense, competitive but he needs to control his emotions better I M O and start leading our team. Fill the void AR and LEAD. He's so talented but may need a couple of years under Coach K to realize his full potential.

[Newton_14]

I did not mean for it to sound like he was a ticking time bomb. I am merely saying he could cut out all the pointing and facial expressions after EVERY call that he does not like (That is your coaches job). He also does the same thing Cam Newton of the Panthers takes a lot of criticism for and that is as soon as he goes out he kinda sulks and either a puts a towel over himself i or takes the towel and throws it at the ground. He is competitive and I really am not bothered by these things but the media is always looking at your every move and listening to your every word and I just do not want Duke being brought up in the media in that manner.

You said "I knew he had a bad one coming in", meaning attitude, and I believe that to be a false perception. I don't believe he had a bad attitude coming in, and I have seen no actions on the bench that leaves me to believe he has a bad attitude. Kids throw towels or refuse towels/drinks from managers all the time during a game. They are competitive, and are in the heat of the moment when coming off the court. Look on any bench of the losing team late in college games and you will see players with towels over their head. It means nothing other than they are irritated with the outcome of the game. I would much rather see that, than to see kids cutting up and laughing during a loss. Kids should hate to lose to the point where they are mad. Those are exactly the type of players you want on your team, and Austin fits that to a T. As does Mason. They are very much alike in that manner actually.

My overall point is, I think you and others had your mind made up coming in that Austin had an attitude, and therefore you are seeing what you want to see to try to validate what you believed was true.

I have watched him closely since day one to see if there was any merit to those perceptions, and have yet to see one thing that concerned me. In fact the evidence has shown me quite clearly, that this is a non-issue. When Austin sat the last 5 minutes of the Kansas game in favor of Tyler, he came off the bench jumping for joy both times when Tyler made the two 3's. That is the best evidence of all right there. If he had an attitude, it would have revealed itself during that situation.

[Devilsfan]

No one said he wouldn't start growing up. We just want he to lead the team starting this Thursday.

[Steven43]

You said "I knew he had a bad one coming in", meaning attitude, and I believe that to be a false perception. I don't believe he had a bad attitude coming in, and I have seen no actions on the bench that leaves me to believe he has a bad attitude. Kids throw towels or refuse towels/drinks from managers all the time during a game. They are competitive, and are in the heat of the moment when coming off the court. Look on any bench of the losing team late in college games and you will see players with towels over their head. It means nothing other than they are irritated with the outcome of the game. I would much rather see that, than to see kids cutting up and laughing during a loss. Kids should hate to lose to the point where they are mad. Those are exactly the type of players you want on your team, and Austin fits that to a T. As does Mason. They are very much alike in that manner actually.

My overall point is, I think you and others had your mind made up coming in that Austin had an attitude, and therefore you are seeing what you want to see to try to validate what you believed was true.

I have watched him closely since day one to see if there was any merit to those perceptions, and have yet to see one thing that concerned me. In fact the evidence has shown me quite clearly, that this is a non-issue. When Austin sat the last 5 minutes of the Kansas game in favor of Tyler, he came off the bench jumping for joy both times when Tyler made the two 3's. That is the best evidence of all right there. If he had an attitude, it would have revealed itself during that situation.

It can be very difficult to tell with certain people--and I think Austin is one of them--whether or not they are showing competitive fire or are instead being petulant and/or whiny. I think Austin actually exhibits both personality traits, but I think more often than not he is simply displaying his competitive side. He'll probably mature as time goes on, particularly if he has a second season to learn the Duke Way of doing things. Of the very high-level recruits in recent years he seems like one who would really benefit from a second season, or more. Another that comes to mind is Demarcus Cousins, though a second season under the UK coach might have done more harm than good.

[duke09hms]

Only disappointing thing to me so far has been his attitude. I knew he had a bad one coming in and figured he would get straightened out fairly quick but it still seems to be a work in progress.

Just cause Duke fans aren't used to players with swagger that don't look "soft" doesn't mean when we finally get one that he has a bad attitude. People really cannot be complaining about his attitude and performance. Austin and Quinn are our only guards that have met/exceeded expectations coming into the season.

[Turk]

I'll step into this minefield with the following comments:

1. Austin has the bad luck to follow a very gifted, poised guard who only played part of a season with a completely different team, providing much opportunity for unfair comparisons between the two players.
2. As noted above, Austin is having a successful freshman year, but expectations are very high, giving him little room for error in the typical growth process.
3. It's quite possible his scorer's mentality and overall game is better suited for the NBA than the ACC. Some of his mistakes are particularly egregious, even by the relaxed standards of freshman starters.
4. One observer provided comments about selected defensive sequences in the GT game, including Austin's performance, here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/13588/puzzles-parity-and-poverty-in-the-accs-opening-weekend#more. Take it with as much salt that wuill stick to your margerita glass, but I find it hard to disagree.
5. Austin's game will only improve over the next four years, but there's no doubt in my mind he'll be wearing an NBA uni by then. I'm thinking two years at Duke max, based on nothing substantial whatsoever than past history and my own gut feel (and I do have a considerable gut). He has a profitable, decades-long future in the family business, with no immediate need for a degree in the forseeable future, so we can't play that card either, alas.
6. I will enjoy the run as long as it lasts. Good luck Austin, good luck in the NBA, and go Duke!!

[Newton_14]

I'll step into this minefield with the following comments:

1. Austin has the bad luck to follow a very gifted, poised guard who only played part of a season with a completely different team, providing much opportunity for unfair comparisons between the two players.
2. As noted above, Austin is having a successful freshman year, but expectations are very high, giving him little room for error in the typical growth process.
3. It's quite possible his scorer's mentality and overall game is better suited for the NBA than the ACC. Some of his mistakes are particularly egregious, even by the relaxed standards of freshman starters.
4. One observer provided comments about selected defensive sequences in the GT game, including Austin's performance, here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/13588/puzzles-parity-and-poverty-in-the-accs-opening-weekend#more. Take it with as much salt that wuill stick to your margerita glass, but I find it hard to disagree.
5. Austin's game will only improve over the next four years, but there's no doubt in my mind he'll be wearing an NBA uni by then. I'm thinking two years at Duke max, based on nothing substantial whatsoever than past history and my own gut feel (and I do have a considerable gut). He has a profitable, decades-long future in the family business, with no immediate need for a degree in the forseeable future, so we can't play that card either, alas.
6. I will enjoy the run as long as it lasts. Good luck Austin, good luck in the NBA, and go Duke!!

Shane and I must have watched different games. That was a typical article from him actually. I put no merit in anything the guy writes to be honest. On the two scores in the lane where both times Austin was all over Rice and Rice simply knocked down two tough shots, Shane somehow saw that as "After crossing Rivers over, Rice hangs in the lane until Rivers can only wave a hand, and hits the runner". That is really terrible description of the defense played on both shot attempts.

That is typical Shane Ryan perspective though. If he has ever written anything positive about Duke and Duke players, I have yet to read it. It is also very clear from reading his articles, he has no concept at all of K's defensive scheme's.

[Kedsy]

Austin and Quinn are our only guards that have met/exceeded expectations coming into the season.

Really? What were your expectations for Seth, Andre, and Tyler?

[Duvall]

Shane and I must have watched different games. That was a typical article from him actually. I put no merit in anything the guy writes to be honest. On the two scores in the lane where both times Austin was all over Rice and Rice simply knocked down two tough shots, Shane somehow saw that as "After crossing Rivers over, Rice hangs in the lane until Rivers can only wave a hand, and hits the runner". That is really terrible description of the defense played on both shot attempts.

That is typical Shane Ryan perspective though. If he has ever written anything positive about Duke and Duke players, I have yet to read it. It is also very clear from reading his articles, he has no concept at all of K's defensive scheme's.

Free BBall Prospectus. Open up the coffers, Simmons.

[duke09hms]

Really? What were your expectations for Seth, Andre, and Tyler?

Seth - improved strength, leadership, display playmaking/shot-creating abilities for the team (given K's preseason praise), and consistent performance.

Andre - improved consistency, ball-handling, movement, and defense.

While those two have undoubtedly improved from last season, it has been incremental, and they are essentially the same players.


With Tyler, I didn't really have any high expectations, and it's mostly these two above I'm referring to.

[ncexnyc]

I'll step into this minefield with the following comments:

1. Austin has the bad luck to follow a very gifted, poised guard who only played part of a season with a completely different team, providing much opportunity for unfair comparisons between the two players.
2. As noted above, Austin is having a successful freshman year, but expectations are very high, giving him little room for error in the typical growth process.
3. It's quite possible his scorer's mentality and overall game is better suited for the NBA than the ACC. Some of his mistakes are particularly egregious, even by the relaxed standards of freshman starters.
4. One observer provided comments about selected defensive sequences in the GT game, including Austin's performance, here: http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/13588/puzzles-parity-and-poverty-in-the-accs-opening-weekend#more. Take it with as much salt that wuill stick to your margerita glass, but I find it hard to disagree.
5. Austin's game will only improve over the next four years, but there's no doubt in my mind he'll be wearing an NBA uni by then. I'm thinking two years at Duke max, based on nothing substantial whatsoever than past history and my own gut feel (and I do have a considerable gut). He has a profitable, decades-long future in the family business, with no immediate need for a degree in the forseeable future, so we can't play that card either, alas.
6. I will enjoy the run as long as it lasts. Good luck Austin, good luck in the NBA, and go Duke!!
I agree with point 1. Having Nolan and Kyle as a security blanket was very nice and Kyrie was one of those once in a decade players.
Not so sure about point 2. Austin has indeed played well, but I think most sane people on this board understood what to expect. If anything I think most of us are very pleased with what we've seen so far.
I've got no beef with point 3, but Austin is who is he is. You've got to take the good with the bad and hope that he learns as the season goes on.
Mr. Ryan may have been a little harsh, but we've all made similar comments about the defensive play of our guards.
I won't get into point 5, right now. When the time arises I'll throw my two cents into the ring.
Amen to point 6!

[JNort]

You said "I knew he had a bad one coming in", meaning attitude, and I believe that to be a false perception. I don't believe he had a bad attitude coming in, and I have seen no actions on the bench that leaves me to believe he has a bad attitude. Kids throw towels or refuse towels/drinks from managers all the time during a game. They are competitive, and are in the heat of the moment when coming off the court. Look on any bench of the losing team late in college games and you will see players with towels over their head. It means nothing other than they are irritated with the outcome of the game. I would much rather see that, than to see kids cutting up and laughing during a loss. Kids should hate to lose to the point where they are mad. Those are exactly the type of players you want on your team, and Austin fits that to a T. As does Mason. They are very much alike in that manner actually.

My overall point is, I think you and others had your mind made up coming in that Austin had an attitude, and therefore you are seeing what you want to see to try to validate what you believed was true.

I have watched him closely since day one to see if there was any merit to those perceptions, and have yet to see one thing that concerned me. In fact the evidence has shown me quite clearly, that this is a non-issue. When Austin sat the last 5 minutes of the Kansas game in favor of Tyler, he came off the bench jumping for joy both times when Tyler made the two 3's. That is the best evidence of all right there. If he had an attitude, it would have revealed itself during that situation.

I really do not even want to discuss it tbh just because no matter what I say you will not believe what I say. Of course he was jumping for joy when Tyler hit the two 3's (who wouldn't) but he sure was angry when he got pulled and they showed Doc Rivers in the crowd and he wasn't happy either. Anyway I am not saying he actually has a bad attitude. I am trying to tell you that the media is doing with him like they try with Cam Newton. They try to show people him when he is not very happy so they can use it to cast a negative light.

No I am not confusing swagger with bad attitude anyway. They are nothing alike imo. I love the swag this entire class has brought. Notice the guys who have the most swagger on this team are: Quinn, Austin and Marshall and I love it

[MCFinARL]

I really do not even want to discuss it tbh just because no matter what I say you will not believe what I say. Of course he was jumping for joy when Tyler hit the two 3's (who wouldn't) but he sure was angry when he got pulled and they showed Doc Rivers in the crowd and he wasn't happy either. Anyway I am not saying he actually has a bad attitude. I am trying to tell you that the media is doing with him like they try with Cam Newton. They try to show people him when he is not very happy so they can use it to cast a negative light.

No I am not confusing swagger with bad attitude anyway. They are nothing alike imo. I love the swag this entire class has brought. Notice the guys who have the most swagger on this team are: Quinn, Austin and Marshall and I love it

This is just going too far, IMHO. First, Doc Rivers is seldom, if ever, looking happy when shown in the stands at Duke games (or when coaching the Celtics, for that matter)--he's not a smiley kind of guy. Second, he is Austin's dad. A parent watching a child play sports (or do any kind of public performance) goes through a range of emotions, the motivations for which can be complex and quite different from those of the child. If Doc was not happy when Austin was pulled (already a wild guess based on a quick camera shot), he could have been feeling bad for Austin, or feeling disappointed in Austin's play, or feeling that taking Austin out then was the wrong decision, or feeling that he was sorry he had a greasy burger and fries for dinner.

I see you go on to suggest this is a media thing--that the media are trying to create this "bad attitude identity" for Austin. Even if that is your main point, though, I think your own remarks here are fueling the fire.

[1 24 90]

I really do not even want to discuss it tbh just because no matter what I say you will not believe what I say. Of course he was jumping for joy when Tyler hit the two 3's (who wouldn't) but he sure was angry when he got pulled and they showed Doc Rivers in the crowd and he wasn't happy either. Anyway I am not saying he actually has a bad attitude. I am trying to tell you that the media is doing with him like they try with Cam Newton. They try to show people him when he is not very happy so they can use it to cast a negative light.

No I am not confusing swagger with bad attitude anyway. They are nothing alike imo. I love the swag this entire class has brought. Notice the guys who have the most swagger on this team are: Quinn, Austin and Marshall and I love it

Wasn't the reason that Austin was pulled because he had 4 fouls at the time? I believe Coach also alluded in the post game that he went with his gut by leaving Tyler in to close the game.

[BluDvlsN1]

:(
This is just going too far, IMHO. First, Doc Rivers is seldom, if ever, looking happy when shown in the stands at Duke games (or when coaching the Celtics, for that matter)--he's not a smiley kind of guy. Second, he is Austin's dad. A parent watching a child play sports (or do any kind of public performance) goes through a range of emotions, the motivations for which can be complex and quite different from those of the child. If Doc was not happy when Austin was pulled (already a wild guess based on a quick camera shot), he could have been feeling bad for Austin, or feeling disappointed in Austin's play, or feeling that taking Austin out then was the wrong decision, or feeling that he was sorry he had a greasy burger and fries for dinner.

I see you go on to suggest this is a media thing--that the media are trying to create this "bad attitude identity" for Austin. Even if that is your main point, though, I think your own remarks here are fueling the fire.

Good response!

It's the half full half empty scenario!
IMO, Doc is cool, great personality and wit, he watch's a game like many who have been around it a long time,
Reading whats going on, taking a coaching perspective without outward emotion, and focusing on the action!

He certainly(from what I have read) and what i'm convinced he understands...and that is,, a young player cant have his relatives detract from what the coach is trying to accomplish!

Moderators!
It the was ever a good time to close out a thread, this may be one of them!

[PADukeMom]

To answer the question:

1. I'm just a crazy DUKE fan who loves each & every player. It the job of the coaching staff to judge Austin; highlight his amazing talent & work with him through his weaknesses.

2. This is a very young team. It is going to take time to find the right formula for which player combination will work best in various situations.

3. We were spoiled last year by 11 amazing games of Kyrie. Austin is not Kyrie. Austin is Austin & will find his identiy.

4. It is only January. We only have 2 away losses. We played 1 ACC game, on the road, which we won.

5. We are NOT Carolina fans, we never turn on our own.

6. I really miss not seeing Nolan Smith.

[ChicagoHeel]

I've watched a few Duke games and my sense of Austin is that he is an outstanding freshman, so the only real way you can be disappointed with his performance is if you had extraordinarily- and probably unrealistically- high expectations going into the season. He is the biggest contributor on offense (based on possessions used) and is shooting above 40% both overall and from the three. How is that anything other than impressive?

I can understand the frustration because (1) Kyrie made it look so easy last year and (2) if the sophomore version of Rivers were playing with the current team you would have a genuinely frightening offense. Obviously you already have a highly-ranked offense (4th overall), but there are some real questions about how you will do going forward against big and/or athletic perimeter defense. If a more experienced Rivers were on the team and better at finding a balance between driving and dishing that potential weakness could be offset by his ability to penetrate. He would obviously be better on the defensive end too if he had a few more games under his belt.

He's real close to being a force and will get better as the year progresses. The big question is whether he will take that next big step in terms of efficiency before the end of the year. I hope not. I'd like to see him continue to put up impressive numbers- and so make it easier to decide to bolt after one year- without becoming so potent that he takes the team to a higher level.

[Steven43]

I've watched a few Duke games and my sense of Austin is that he is an outstanding freshman, so the only real way you can be disappointed with his performance is if you had extraordinarily- and probably unrealistically- high expectations going into the season. He is the biggest contributor on offense (based on possessions used) and is shooting above 40% both overall and from the three. How is that anything other than impressive?

I can understand the frustration because (1) Kyrie made it look so easy last year and (2) if the sophomore version of Rivers were playing with the current team you would have a genuinely frightening offense. Obviously you already have a highly-ranked offense (4th overall), but there are some real questions about how you will do going forward against big and/or athletic perimeter defense. If a more experienced Rivers were on the team and better at finding a balance between driving and dishing that potential weakness could be offset by his ability to penetrate. He would obviously be better on the defensive end too if he had a few more games under his belt.

He's real close to being a force and will get better as the year progresses. The big question is whether he will take that next big step in terms of efficiency before the end of the year. I hope not. I'd like to see him continue to put up impressive numbers- and so make it easier to decide to bolt after one year- without becoming so potent that he takes the team to a higher level.

I think your assessment of the Rivers situation is spot on.

I assume you are a Heel fan. I think the law of averages will find that your school cannot indefinitely keep highly-rated incoming freshmen at a better rate than the rest of the country. In my perfect basketball world both UNC and Duke would keep those types of players for at least 2-3 years so we could have the type of truly epic battles we deserve to have. I'm still bothered by the fact that we never got to play y'all with Kyrie. Of course, that was due to injury, but still. I can only dream of what the Duke-UNC games of this season would have been like with both Kyrie and Austin in our lineup.

[JNort]

This is just going too far, IMHO. First, Doc Rivers is seldom, if ever, looking happy when shown in the stands at Duke games (or when coaching the Celtics, for that matter)--he's not a smiley kind of guy. Second, he is Austin's dad. A parent watching a child play sports (or do any kind of public performance) goes through a range of emotions, the motivations for which can be complex and quite different from those of the child. If Doc was not happy when Austin was pulled (already a wild guess based on a quick camera shot), he could have been feeling bad for Austin, or feeling disappointed in Austin's play, or feeling that taking Austin out then was the wrong decision, or feeling that he was sorry he had a greasy burger and fries for dinner.

I see you go on to suggest this is a media thing--that the media are trying to create this "bad attitude identity" for Austin. Even if that is your main point, though, I think your own remarks here are fueling the fire.

My remarks are supposed to fuel it, that was the point. I was trying to make the case for his "bad attitude". As for the Doc comment I know he is not a smiley guy but his actual reaction to Austin being pulled was his mouth fell open in disbelief and I don't remember but I could have sworn he put his hands up. No big deal to me but the camera man made sure to get it all on tv. Last game Austin also got very unhappy with Mason and started mouthing off to him. That is another thing he has done very much this year. When he has passed to an open teammate and they either A) miss the shot or B) pass it to someone else he throws his arms up and shouts to them.

[JNort]

I love Austin and his style of play, he has been about like I thought and should be much better as the season goes on. As of right now he is one of my favorites on this team (Quinn and Mason being my 1 and 2)

[killerleft]

???? Please explain the Furyk reference, as I don't follow golf very much.

Perhaps he means we'll win the FedEx Cup (nudge, nudge) and the US Open (wink, wink). Sounds excellent to me!

[ChicagoHeel]

I think your assessment of the Rivers situation is spot on.

I assume you are a Heel fan. I think the law of averages will find that your school cannot indefinitely keep highly-rated incoming freshmen at a better rate than the rest of the country. In my perfect basketball world both UNC and Duke would keep those types of players for at least 2-3 years so we could have the type of truly epic battles we deserve to have. I'm still bothered by the fact that we never got to play y'all with Kyrie. Of course, that was due to injury, but still. I can only dream of what the Duke-UNC games of this season would have been like with both Kyrie and Austin in our lineup.


I'll give you Kyrie for a second year, if I can have a senior Ed David playing for us this year. On second thought, I don't think I would make that deal. If you're getting Kyrie, I would also have to receive Lawson and Ellington back for their senior years so that the debacle of 2010 could be erased.

I also spend more time than I should thinking about what would could have been happened had another player or two had stuck around. Imagine a 2012-13 battle if it were Kyrie (junior), Rivers (soph), & Mason (senior) vs. Barnes, Marshall (juniors), Henson (senior) and MacAdoo (soph). Through in the very solid supporting casts and those would be some insane battles.

[JNort]

I'll give you Kyrie for a second year, if I can have a senior Ed David playing for us this year. On second thought, I don't think I would make that deal. If you're getting Kyrie, I would also have to receive Lawson and Ellington back for their senior years so that the debacle of 2010 could be erased.

I also spend more time than I should thinking about what would could have been happened had another player or two had stuck around. Imagine a 2012-13 battle if it were Kyrie (junior), Rivers (soph), & Mason (senior) vs. Barnes, Marshall (juniors), Henson (senior) and MacAdoo (soph). Through in the very solid supporting casts and those would be some insane battles.

Well just based on those guys right there I would think Duke would win this. Best pg and sg in the country on the same team who both happen to be elite offensive players and good defensive players vs Barnes and Marshall both of whom play bad defense, Marshall can not really score and Barnes can be streaky. Henson and Mason would be a tossup and MacAdoo plays no defense either and has not shown much anywhere yet.

[Steven43]

Well just based on those guys right there I would think Duke would win this. Best pg and sg in the country on the same team who both happen to be elite offensive players and good defensive players vs Barnes and Marshall both of whom play bad defense, Marshall can not really score and Barnes can be streaky. Henson and Mason would be a tossup and MacAdoo plays no defense either and has not shown much anywhere yet.

Maybe UNC would struggle to defend Duke, but we would in turn struggle to defend them. When you add in Hairston, Bullock, Marcus Paige, Nate Britt, and J.P. Tokoto, well, look out. I think Duke would eek out at least one victory, but I'd be nervous as heck going into the game(s). Wow, would I love to see it, though.

[JNort]

Maybe UNC would struggle to defend Duke, but we would in turn struggle to defend them. When you add in Hairston, Bullock, Marcus Paige, Nate Britt, and J.P. Tokoto, well, look out. I think Duke would eek out at least one victory, but I'd be nervous as heck going into the game(s). Wow, would I love to see it, though.

Duke:

1. Kyrie
2. Seth
3. Austin
4. Ryan
5. Mason

6. Quinn
7. Marshall
8. ???



UNC:

1. Marshall
2. Dexter
3. Barnes
4. McAdoo
5. Henson

6. Reggie
7. PJ
8. ???

That to me would be the best chance for players you would see in that hypothetical game with an open option for the 8th guys who could appear (Duke: Andre, Murphy, MG, Tyler, Josh, Rasheed S, and potentially Bazz, Amile or Tony Parker) (UNC: Brice, Paige, Joel, and Tokoto)

If Duke got Bazz then you would see possibly the greatest backcourt of all time (Jr Kyrie, Soph Rivers and Fr Bazz) to go along with a top 10 C in college in Mason and one of the top shooting bigs as well in Kelly. I feel so excited even those this could never happen but I wish there was a way to see what a 7 game series would look like.

[CDu]

Shane and I must have watched different games. That was a typical article from him actually. I put no merit in anything the guy writes to be honest. On the two scores in the lane where both times Austin was all over Rice and Rice simply knocked down two tough shots, Shane somehow saw that as "After crossing Rivers over, Rice hangs in the lane until Rivers can only wave a hand, and hits the runner". That is really terrible description of the defense played on both shot attempts.

That is typical Shane Ryan perspective though. If he has ever written anything positive about Duke and Duke players, I have yet to read it. It is also very clear from reading his articles, he has no concept at all of K's defensive scheme's.

He's a Duke fan, but he's more fan than educated fan. The only guy who he has heaped praise on was Curry. Hates Rivers, hates the Plumlees, doesn't really talk about too many others in detail. I haven't read him recently, but that quote seems about right. Fluffy prose, ardent following of the team, but not terribly accurate analysis.

[superdave]

He thinks (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/42037) Austin stays another year.

jesse (NC)
Does Austin Rivers go pro if hes not a top 10 pick...which hes not

Chad Ford
(1:38 PM)
I doubt it. He doesn't need the money. He's going to start playing better. Another year would do him good.

[Old Drum]

Shane and I must have watched different games. That was a typical article from him actually. I put no merit in anything the guy writes to be honest. On the two scores in the lane where both times Austin was all over Rice and Rice simply knocked down two tough shots, Shane somehow saw that as "After crossing Rivers over, Rice hangs in the lane until Rivers can only wave a hand, and hits the runner". That is really terrible description of the defense played on both shot attempts.

Thank you for pointing this out. Those plays Rice made over Rivers were phenomenal. Austin did everything you can ask a player to do and Rice still made the shots (while descending no less). This whole "Rivers can't play defense" schtick is the sign of someone who hasn't actually watched Duke play much this year. Our permeter defense has struggled more than we're used to, but Rivers has not been the problem. If anything, I'd argue Austin is our best and most consistent perimeter defender. I've had no complaints about his D since the trip to China.

[ncexnyc]

He thinks (http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/42037) Austin stays another year.

jesse (NC)
Does Austin Rivers go pro if hes not a top 10 pick...which hes not

Chad Ford
(1:38 PM)
I doubt it. He doesn't need the money. He's going to start playing better. Another year would do him good.

Funny to hear Chad say Austin doesn't need the money. That didn't stop G from going pro, albeit after his junior year. I think Austin's current game is way further along than G's was as a freshman.

[Steven43]

Funny to hear Chad say Austin doesn't need the money. That didn't stop G from going pro, albeit after his junior year. I think Austin's current game is way further along than G's was as a freshman.

Who is 'G'?

[sagegrouse]

Who is 'G'?

Gerald Henderson, I think.

[JNort]

Who is 'G'?


Gerald Henderson, I think.

Yup this right here ^^^

I was so distraught when I found out he was skipping his Sr year! I loved his game and the silky smooth midrange game combined with his elite jumping ability was fun to watch. That is the first one I have called wrong in a while (Thought he would return) just thought he needed to much work on his left hand and he was projected late lottery.

[MCFinARL]

Funny to hear Chad say Austin doesn't need the money. That didn't stop G from going pro, albeit after his junior year. I think Austin's current game is way further along than G's was as a freshman.

Yes, but is it way further along that G's was as a junior?

[dukebballcamper90-91]

He is better than the only pre season all american freshman ever at this time last year

[yancem]

Gerald Henderson, I think.

You are correct but for those of us more advanced in age Grant Hill was who we called G and if your a little older still Mike Gminski bore the moniker (although it was actually G Man).

[Steven43]

Not sure if Austin is further along at this point in his freshman year than Black Falcon was. I think his ability to score on the inside is further along, but I don't think his jumper is as developed as Falcon's was. I would give the edge to HB in rebounding, but I think passing and defense are about even. HB has the potential to get better, but I think his game is closer to being maxed out than AR. AR has more upside. He's simply a better athlete.

As far as comparisons to Gerald during his junior year, it's not really close. Gerald, given the two extra years at Duke, was naturally much further along than AR. You know, it's funny to see what one-and-done has done to the college game. It seems that any player that was considered a consensus 1-3 level recruit coming out of high school feels pressured to go pro after one year, regardless of how developed their game is. Henderson was not really pressured to go pro after one year because he wasn't quite that super-elite level of recruit. When you're Kyrie or Austin and some publications list you as possibly the top recruit in all of high school, I think the pressure and expectations are just on a different level. Austin should at least be on the level that Gerald was before he considers going pro, and that will probably take at least one more year, maybe two. Look how well Gerald is doing now that he waited until he (as a person) and his basketball game were more developed before leaving college. He's developing faster and better than many had expected, and I think the fact that he had three full years to get his game together at a school like Duke is a big part of that.

[Kedsy]

As far as comparisons to Gerald during his junior year, it's not really close. Gerald, given the two extra years at Duke, was naturally much further along than AR.

I'm not sure I agree. Austin's scoring ability is about the same as G's as a junior. G's finishing ability was better than Austin's, but Austin's outside shooting and ballhandling are much better than G's. Austin's passing is probably a little better, with the potential to be much better. G's defense was ahead of Austin's, but Austin's D is improving rapidly. G was physically more mature (and emotionally more mature, too, I suppose) and stronger, and was a better rebounder. Doesn't sound like too big a difference in overall play, maybe a slight edge to G as a college player.

But, as an NBA prospect, Austin is much further along than G was in 2009. Because they're both SGs in the pros, but G was really an undersized SF, because his shooting and handle were suspect. Austin's ability in those areas are exactly what an NBA SG needs. His handle is good enough he may even be able to be a combo guard on the right team.

[Newton_14]

Not sure if Austin is further along at this point in his freshman year than Black Falcon was. I think his ability to score on the inside is further along, but I don't think his jumper is as developed as Falcon's was. I would give the edge to HB in rebounding, but I think passing and defense are about even. HB has the potential to get better, but I think his game is closer to being maxed out than AR. AR has more upside. He's simply a better athlete.

As far as comparisons to Gerald during his junior year, it's not really close. Gerald, given the two extra years at Duke, was naturally much further along than AR. You know, it's funny to see what one-and-done has done to the college game. It seems that any player that was considered a consensus 1-3 level recruit coming out of high school feels pressured to go pro after one year, regardless of how developed their game is. Henderson was not really pressured to go pro after one year because he wasn't quite that super-elite level of recruit. When you're Kyrie or Austin and some publications list you as possibly the top recruit in all of high school, I think the pressure and expectations are just on a different level. Austin should at least be on the level that Gerald was before he considers going pro, and that will probably take at least one more year, maybe two. Look how well Gerald is doing now that he waited until he (as a person) and his basketball game were more developed before leaving college. He's developing faster and better than many had expected, and I think the fact that he had three full years to get his game together at a school like Duke is a big part of that.

At this point last season the pigeon was shooting 29% from 3......

[ncexnyc]

Yes, but is it way further along that G's was as a junior?
Let's revisit this question at the end of the season.:D

[Steven43]

At this point last season the pigeon was shooting 29% from 3......

Yes, HB did struggle early on, but his form was good even when he wasn't knocking them down consistently. You knew it was just a matter of time before he figured out how to take and make higher percentage shots. With Austin I think things are a bit more problematic. He just doesn't have a reliable shooting form. You can tell even with his free throws, which he doesn't make at a very good rate for a guard. His free throw and jump shot release are very similar. When he's feeling it he can knock down two or three in a row from long range. The problem is that his type of shot is just not consistently reliable. He has very little margin for error, and he doesn't get a shooter's roll or bounce that the good shooters get.

Just look at Seth or Andre's shot and you can see that their form allows for a much better chance of consistently making shots as long as they don't let the pressure of the moment get to them, of course. They have a much softer shooter's touch. Austin really needs to address this or the inconsistency will remain. And if a shooting guard does not have a great midrange and long-range game, well, he's not going to be an NBA shooting guard for long. The only exceptions to that are the world-class athletes like Derrick Rose that can finish on the inside regardless of who gets in their way--and even the great Rose was stymied by equally great athlete Lebron James, who is both bigger and stronger while being just as athletic. I think Austin is going to eventually figure out how to finish on the inside. He has all the talent in the world. But even that can not make up for inconsistent, unreliable form from outside. Maybe during the next offseason he can begin to figure this thing out.

[NSDukeFan]

Yes, HB did struggle early on, but his form was good even when he wasn't knocking them down consistently. You knew it was just a matter of time before he figured out how to take and make higher percentage shots. With Austin I think things are a bit more problematic. He just doesn't have a reliable shooting form. You can tell even with his free throws, which he doesn't make at a very good rate for a guard. His free throw and jump shot release are very similar. When he's feeling it he can knock down two or three in a row from long range. The problem is that his type of shot is just not consistently reliable. He has very little margin for error, and he doesn't get a shooter's roll or bounce that the good shooters get.

Just look at Seth or Andre's shot and you can see that their form allows for a much better chance of consistently making shots as long as they don't let the pressure of the moment get to them, of course. They have a much softer shooter's touch. Austin really needs to address this or the inconsistency will remain. And if a shooting guard does not have a great midrange and long-range game, well, he's not going to be an NBA shooting guard for long. The only exceptions to that are the world-class athletes like Derrick Rose that can finish on the inside regardless of who gets in their way--and even the great Rose was stymied by equally great athlete Lebron James, who is both bigger and stronger while being just as athletic. I think Austin is going to eventually figure out how to finish on the inside. He has all the talent in the world. But even that can not make up for inconsistent, unreliable form from outside. Maybe during the next offseason he can begin to figure this thing out.

I remember my coach used to tell me to be a great shooter, you need two things: You have to be able to get the shot off and you have to be able to make it. I'd say Austin qualifies.

[CDu]

I remember my coach used to tell me to be a great shooter, you need two things: You have to be able to get the shot off and you have to be able to make it. I'd say Austin qualifies.

Yup. It's nice to have perfect form, but the more important aspect of being a good shooter is being able to recreate a successful shooting motion repeatedly. Doesn't matter if the form is picture perfect. Reggie Miller is a great example of this. So is Michael Adams. So is Peja Stojakovic.

[Steven43]

Yup. It's nice to have perfect form, but the more important aspect of being a good shooter is being able to recreate a successful shooting motion repeatedly. Doesn't matter if the form is picture perfect. Reggie Miller is a great example of this. So is Michael Adams. So is Peja Stojakovic.

Time will tell. Hope you're right. You can always find exceptions to anything. What was the free throw percentage of the unorthodox shooters who still could shoot a high percentage from outside? I'd be willing to bet that they shoot at least 80-85%. Good shooters make their free throws. I'll open my mind to Austin's unorthodox jumper when he starts shooting 80% or more from the line.

Look, I really like the guy and I want him to be great. I hope he disproves my shooters' form argument and makes me regret ever mentioning it.