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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 85, Penn 55 Post-Game Thread



Bob Green
01-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Discuss the game here.

feldspar
01-01-2012, 07:01 PM
I (heart) Quinn Cook.

Defense looked better.

We are versatile.

Jderf
01-01-2012, 07:01 PM
Quinn is making a very strong case to be the starting pg right now. 9 assists and 0 turnovers in just 22 minutes. Can't wait to see if he can keep up that level of play in the ACC season.

OldPhiKap
01-01-2012, 07:09 PM
I hope Miles takes some confidence from this. We are much better when he elevates his game.

Quin, Tyler both looked good. Ryan was money.

Wander
01-01-2012, 07:09 PM
I'm getting aboard the train too. I understand all the arguments about the strength of our last few opponents and sample size, and I think those are valid and reasonable points, but... it sure does seem like just a matter of time before Cook is starting.

wilko
01-01-2012, 07:28 PM
From what I have been able to tell about Quinn.
He excels at generating good ball movement. Finding outlets on the wing and penetrating for his own shot. (Nice for Austin to have help on that) But one thing I'd like to see is him feeding the post more often. Drive and dish, finding an angle for an entry... Like to see a bit more from the him (And the REST of the guards on this for that matter).

CajunDevil
01-01-2012, 07:28 PM
I'm getting aboard the train too. I understand all the arguments about the strength of our last few opponents and sample size, and I think those are valid and reasonable points, but... it sure does seem like just a matter of time before Cook is starting.

Count me in! Cook should start next game. His floor vision and ability to find open bigs/shooters and deliver the ball in rhythm is GREAT, not just good - much better than anyone on the current roster. TT should be a spark off the bench...

gep
01-01-2012, 07:32 PM
I hope Miles takes some confidence from this. We are much better when he elevates his game.

Quin, Tyler both looked good. Ryan was money.

Over the past few games, I think (hope) that Miles "got it". He's been playing very well... to me, he could be the "senior-Zoubs" of this year's team. And I hope for the same result too :cool:

WiJoe
01-01-2012, 07:37 PM
I (heart) Quinn Cook.

Defense looked better.

We are versatile.

You mean I 2231 Quinn Cook.

My son thinks he's the next Nolan Smith. Hmm. Meanwhile, I'd stay with TT as the starter for now.

watzone
01-01-2012, 08:41 PM
Here are several post game videos with Kelly, Mason, Seth and Quinn - http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/01/bdn-post-game-videos-cook-curry-kelly-plumlee-talk-win-over-penn/ You have to love Kelly having a double-double in26 min, and Mason as well. And then there is Quinn Cook, 17 assists and no turnoveres in the last two games.

Bigdukeboi22
01-01-2012, 09:00 PM
Surprises and some takeaways from tonights game

Ryan Kelly went 4-4 from the 3 point line and had a double double with 18 points and 12 rebounds
Rivers struggled going 3-8 and had only 8 points
Mason Plumlee had a double double with 14 rebound and 10 points
Miles Plumlee played great and Duke out rebounded Penn 45-24

After playing 3 cupcakes in a row I am eager to see if we continue to improve and dominate a Temple team wednesday night that needed overtime to beat this same Penn team 73-67 in their first game of the year. Duke should win the game pretty handily and should have a lot of confidence before opening ACC play on the road against Georgia Tech

Gthoma2a
01-01-2012, 09:08 PM
Here are several post game videos with Kelly, Mason, Seth and Quinn - http://bluedevilnation.net/2012/01/bdn-post-game-videos-cook-curry-kelly-plumlee-talk-win-over-penn/ You have to love Kelly having a double-double in26 min, and Mason as well. And then there is Quinn Cook, 17 assists and no turnoveres in the last two games.

Quinn really proved some people wrong who said he was going to be an attitude problem (from them seeing him getting upset in high school; he was a senior leader who wanted to win for his school... BAD!).

I hope he gets comfortable enough to start breaking out like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7O3-bVT5jE

He is just another level of smooth at times. Those one handed bounce passes just leave me in awe sometimes (one from half court today).

Waynne
01-01-2012, 09:08 PM
I like the up-tempo game we've played the last two games. We've scored a lot of easy baskets and it seems to energize our defense. With Quinn getting major minutes I think we can continue this trend in ACC play.

Wander
01-01-2012, 09:18 PM
I am eager to see if we continue to improve and dominate a Temple team wednesday night that needed overtime to beat this same Penn team 73-67 in their first game of the year. Duke should win the game pretty handily and should have a lot of confidence before opening ACC play on the road against Georgia Tech

Careful. Road games are very hard, Temple is undefeated at home, and returns a bunch of players from a team that went to the tournament last year (and won a game in it).

devildeac
01-01-2012, 09:52 PM
You mean I 2231 Quinn Cook.

My son thinks he's the next Nolan Smith. Hmm. Meanwhile, I'd stay with TT as the starter for now.

Our "point guard" today played 39 minutes (yea, I know they played some together), was 4/8 FG, had 3 boards, 1 steal, 10 A, 1 TO, 2 PF and 11 points. I'll take it. All season long;).

Saratoga2
01-01-2012, 10:20 PM
The best I could get was game tracker tonight, so I would be grateful to hear the view of someone who was at the game. From game tracker, it seemed that we rebounded well and played well defensively. The areas in question from what I could glean from game tracker were;
1. Our bigs seemed to have trouble getting balls to fall when near the baskets. Lots of tip ins and even a slam dunk were missed and the bigs got the ball taken away as few times. Is that a correct understanding?
2. It appears the Penn guards were pretty good and also quite active. They too seemed to turn some of our guards over a few times.
3. Quinn was very good again with his floor vision and passing and is excellent with ball security. Lots of assists and no turnovers again against guards who were turning others over.

superdave
01-01-2012, 10:25 PM
I like the up-tempo game we've played the last two games. We've scored a lot of easy baskets and it seems to energize our defense. With Quinn getting major minutes I think we can continue this trend in ACC play.

We only had 6 transition points tonight. Not a lot considering the emphasis on pushing the ball. The changes I saw were the offense being initiated (meaning initial ball screen) earlier in the shot clock and guys making hard moves in order to get shots up quickly. It's not as much a fast break game plan as it is a secondary break one. They are making moves while the defense is back but not yet set.
I will be interested in seeing how effective it is vs. Temple, a better team than Penn and WM.

Bob Green
01-01-2012, 11:02 PM
I will be interested in seeing how effective it is vs. Temple, a better team than Penn and WM.

Ken Pomeroy has Temple ranked at #44 which is significantly higher than Penn at #158. However, the Owls needed overtime to defeat the Quakers.

jv001
01-01-2012, 11:24 PM
Ken Pomeroy has Temple ranked at #44 which is significantly higher than Penn at #158. However, the Owls needed overtime to defeat the Quakers.

Bob, but Monmouth is #329 Pomeroy which is 10 spots better than Nicholls State's #339, lol. GoDuke!

Duke71
01-02-2012, 12:28 AM
I couldn't help but notice that one of the game announcers picked up on a point that I've been a broken record on throughout the season, but DBR posters have been too busy being self-congratulatory to comment on. The announcer said something along the lines of "The last time that Duke had more turnovers than assists in games like they have had most of this year, they exited the NCAA tournament in the first round." Enjoy that ranking and the Sports Center highlights....that may be all we have to show for the season besides blowouts against inferior teams. Your speculations about playing time, point guards, etc. will matter little if that "minor" item isn't addressed....we ended up on the right side of the balance sheet tonight but we need to take care of that business consistently. Pretending that that isn't an important issue could prove deadly. Quinn Cook is doing his level best to tilt the stat column in the right direction as of late.

Kedsy
01-02-2012, 12:45 AM
Careful. Road games are very hard, Temple is undefeated at home, and returns a bunch of players from a team that went to the tournament last year (and won a game in it).

Note, however, that we are not playing Temple in their home gym. They're good, but they'd be better in Liacouras than they will be in Wells Fargo.

Kedsy
01-02-2012, 12:47 AM
Ken Pomeroy has Temple ranked at #44 which is significantly higher than Penn at #158. However, the Owls needed overtime to defeat the Quakers.

Big Five games are often tougher than expected. Hard to extrapolate to non-rivalry matchups.

Kedsy
01-02-2012, 12:52 AM
I couldn't help but notice that one of the game announcers picked up on a point that I've been a broken record on throughout the season, but DBR posters have been too busy being self-congratulatory to comment on. The announcer said something along the lines of "The last time that Duke had more turnovers than assists in games like they have had most of this year, they exited the NCAA tournament in the first round." Enjoy that ranking and the Sports Center highlights....that may be all we have to show for the season besides blowouts against inferior teams. Your speculations about playing time, point guards, etc. will matter little if that "minor" item isn't addressed....we ended up on the right side of the balance sheet tonight but we need to take care of that business consistently. Pretending that that isn't an important issue could prove deadly. Quinn Cook is doing his level best to tilt the stat column in the right direction as of late.

No question that whenever Hubert Davis says something we should all stop what we're doing and comment on it. He said a lot of other things I thought were silly, but I'm not commenting on those either.

Assist to turnover ratio is just one way of saying an offense isn't efficient. Except our offense this year is pretty efficient, so I'm not sure how much a/to matters. In 2006-07 (the year Hubert referenced), Pomeroy rated our offense as the 40th best in the country. This year, so far, he rates us as the 4th best in the country. Big difference. To me, that's more worthy of comment than either Hubert Davis's wisdom or your pessimism.

Kedsy
01-02-2012, 01:06 AM
Some stats I think are interesting:

Miles, our one big man who has never been much of a shotblocker, has averaged 3.0 blocks per game in his last five games (4.0 in his last two).

Andre, who people were legitimately claiming hasn't rebounded enough, is averaging 3.75 rebounds per game in his last four games.

Quinn has a 10.5 assist to turnover ratio in his last five games (4.83 for the season).

Seth tonight, playing alongside Tyler:
17+ minutes; 1 for 8 shooting (1 for 3 from 2-point; 0 for 5 from 3-point), plus 2 for 2 FTs, for 4 points.

Seth tonight, playing without Tyler:
7+ minutes; 4 for 5 shooting (1 for 2 from 2-point; 3 for 3 from 3-point) for 11 points.

Yes, I know it could still be a coincidence. But I don't think it is.

Duke71
01-02-2012, 01:36 AM
No question that whenever Hubert Davis says something we should all stop what we're doing and comment on it. He said a lot of other things I thought were silly, but I'm not commenting on those either.

Assist to turnover ratio is just one way of saying an offense isn't efficient. Except our offense this year is pretty efficient, so I'm not sure how much a/to matters. In 2006-07 (the year Hubert referenced), Pomeroy rated our offense as the 40th best in the country. This year, so far, he rates us as the 4th best in the country. Big difference. To me, that's more worthy of comment than either Hubert Davis's wisdom or your pessimism.

I appreciate your optimism and your spin on the stats but I'll bet you've never donned a Duke BBall jersey in your illustrious travels....I have. Opinions by sideline swamis - whether erudite sounding or not - don't always address the core issues of the game. Be encouraged. Hot air cools off after a while....and just because Hubie played for the dreaded "other team" doesn't mean he's always wrong. It took some time and distance for me to appreciate some things about UNC after being programmed to detest all things UNC during my campus days, but there is much to be appreciated about our vaunted rival.

feldspar
01-02-2012, 01:46 AM
I appreciate your optimism and your spin on the stats but I'll bet you've never donned a Duke BBall jersey in your illustrious travels....I have.

Hmmm...time to play the guessing game. Go Duke is telling me two Blue Devils originated from Wilmington, Del.

Neither graduated in 1971. That's just what the clues are telling me, though.

Although Carmen Wallace was one of my favorite players of the '90s.

Well, now look at me, being all sexist. Could be a lady Blue Devil we have here.

Nice to have you, mysterious former Blue Devil.

Duke71
01-02-2012, 02:09 AM
Having the weirdoes come out of the woodwork isn't the point either. The point is "not focusing exclusively on creating your own shot", sharing the ball, and keeping your teammates engaged. Is that such an esoteric concept? Apparently the game has changed a bit in the last few decades. Long live "Sports Center" I guess. They rarely feature the girl highlights....why is that? John Wooden actually said in his twilight years before he passed away that he preferred watching the ladies games because they played the game the way it's supposed to be played.

Duvall
01-02-2012, 02:10 AM
and just because Hubie played for the dreaded "other team" doesn't mean he's always wrong. It took some time and distance for me to appreciate some things about UNC after being programmed to detest all things UNC during my campus days, but there is much to be appreciated about our vaunted rival.


I doubt that anyone discounts Davis' opinion because he went to UNC. We discount his opinion because he's not a very good basketball analyst. Just today he claimed - insisted, really - that one of Duke's strengths was offensive rebounding, while in reality this year's Duke team is fairly mediocre in that area.

Duke71
01-02-2012, 02:15 AM
I doubt that anyone discounts Davis' opinion because he went to UNC. We discount his opinion because he's not a very good basketball analyst. Just today he claimed - insisted, really - that one of Duke's strengths was offensive rebounding, while in reality this year's Duke team is fairly mediocre in that area.

Duvall:

Touche. I agree with that point wholeheartedly.

JStuart
01-02-2012, 08:26 AM
I doubt that anyone discounts Davis' opinion because he went to UNC. We discount his opinion because he's not a very good basketball analyst. Just today he claimed - insisted, really - that one of Duke's strengths was offensive rebounding, while in reality this year's Duke team is fairly mediocre in that area.

Would Hubert have this job if he had not played at unc?
I for one, discount his offerings, mostly because he rarely tries to distance himself from being a loyal tarheel, as opposed to Jay Williams' and Jay Bilas' obvious attempts at neutrality.
But then, we've never had a thread on Jay Bilas, have we?:)

NSDukeFan
01-02-2012, 08:29 AM
I appreciate your optimism and your spin on the stats but I'll bet you've never donned a Duke BBall jersey in your illustrious travels....I have. Opinions by sideline swamis - whether erudite sounding or not - don't always address the core issues of the game. Be encouraged. Hot air cools off after a while....and just because Hubie played for the dreaded "other team" doesn't mean he's always wrong. It took some time and distance for me to appreciate some things about UNC after being programmed to detest all things UNC during my campus days, but there is much to be appreciated about our vaunted rival.

While it's obviously great to have someone who has played at Duke here on the board, I wouldn't necessarily discount Kedsy's major point that overall offensive efficiency is more important than how you get there (whether high assist/TO ratio, Zoubek grabbing every offensive rebound, shooting a high effective FG%.) Of course, it is always better to have more assists than turnovers for a multitude of reasons, including that it is much more enjoyable for us fans to watch.

MChambers
01-02-2012, 08:29 AM
I doubt that anyone discounts Davis' opinion because he went to UNC. We discount his opinion because he's not a very good basketball analyst. Just today he claimed - insisted, really - that one of Duke's strengths was offensive rebounding, while in reality this year's Duke team is fairly mediocre in that area.
Last night's game was the first time I've heard Hubert do a game. I definitely agree: he's just not that good. Very few insights. He's a big step up from Elmore, however!

OldPhiKap
01-02-2012, 09:09 AM
Last night's game was the first time I've heard Hubert do a game. I definitely agree: he's just not that good. Very few insights. He's a big step up from Elmore, however!

Personally, I think Hubert does an okay job. Other than Bob Knight and Jay Bilas (and personally, I like Dino Gaudio) there are few color commentators that add much beyond some running commentary to fill the air.

On the point in discussion -- our turnover:assist ratio is a cause for some concern IF it does not improve going forward. Having said that, we've only lost one game so far -- we must be doing something right.

I am enjoying watching both Tyler and Quin platoon -- play as hard as you can, come out and rest, go back in -- but Quin's low TO stat is pretty impressive. Of course, it is from a smaller sample against lesser competition so far. K said that Quin's injury was serious and that he's just getting back into form, so I imagine we will see more of him soon.

superdave
01-02-2012, 09:26 AM
Seth tonight, playing alongside Tyler:
17+ minutes; 1 for 8 shooting (1 for 3 from 2-point; 0 for 5 from 3-point), plus 2 for 2 FTs, for 4 points.

Seth tonight, playing without Tyler:
7+ minutes; 4 for 5 shooting (1 for 2 from 2-point; 3 for 3 from 3-point) for 11 points.

Yes, I know it could still be a coincidence. But I don't think it is.

Will have to pay attention to this going forward. If the ball moves that well with Quinn in the game, the rotation could shift considerably. Tyler could be relegated back to more of a high energy role.

COYS
01-02-2012, 11:04 AM
Personally, I think Hubert does an okay job. Other than Bob Knight and Jay Bilas (and personally, I like Dino Gaudio) there are few color commentators that add much beyond some running commentary to fill the air.

On the point in discussion -- our turnover:assist ratio is a cause for some concern IF it does not improve going forward. Having said that, we've only lost one game so far -- we must be doing something right.

I am enjoying watching both Tyler and Quin platoon -- play as hard as you can, come out and rest, go back in -- but Quin's low TO stat is pretty impressive. Of course, it is from a smaller sample against lesser competition so far. K said that Quin's injury was serious and that he's just getting back into form, so I imagine we will see more of him soon.

I actually don't mind Davis that much, either. He praised Duke considerably last night and didn't hesitate to say they have a legitimate shot at the Final Four. And I thought he knew the Duke players' strengths and weaknesses better than most color guys. He also gave Quinn a ton of praise. The offensive rebounding comment didn't make sense. And I also disagree that UNC gets the edge over Duke because of depth (something Len and Hubert both repeated) as I think in Miles, Andre, and Quinn Duke has far more experience on the bench than MacAdoo, Hairston, and Bullock at UNC. But otherwise he was pretty good with his analysis. Granted, the bar isn't set very high, but I'd rather have Davis than Elmore any day of the week, even if I'd prefer Bilas, GMan, or the General over all.

As for the a/to ratio, as of last night we ventured into positive territory with 179 total assists to 176 total turnovers. Hopefully that will continue to improve. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/150/duke-blue-devils

devildeac
01-02-2012, 11:26 AM
I did not mind Hubert too much yesterday as he was a breath of fresh air over Elmoron.

Did anyone catch The Sweaty One interviewing Beilein yesterday after the Michigan-Minnesota game on the Big 10/11/12 Network? He was amazingly calm and dry:rolleyes:.

Class of '94
01-02-2012, 11:52 AM
Can a 3 guard lineup work defensively against teams like UNC, KY and Syracuse with protypical small forwards that are 6'7-6'8. Hubert made an interesting point yesterday during the broadcast (and I know it has been brought up before on DBR) that Duke may have a problem matching up with HB of UNC because of size mismatches. Silent G could play a pivotal role as the team continues to develop in regards to matching up with those types of teams. If MG were to continue to develop and make shots, would the team ultimately be best starting MG and QC while bringing Seth, Andre and Tyler off the bench? I know it may sound crazy bringing Seth off the bench; but from a defensive matchup perspective, a starting 5 with MG and QC (again assuming MG consistently makes shots and QC improves defensively) along with Austin, Ryan and MP2 could matchup defensively with any team and still provide a punch offensively. In addition, the bench would be incredibly loaded with firepower bringing Andre and Seth off the bench to go with MP1, Tyler and Josh.

I doubt it would happen and I can't see Seth coming off the bench because he is one of our 5 best players; but I thought I put this out there to get your thoughts. Please don't roast me too badly for mentioning this.:)

MChambers
01-02-2012, 12:50 PM
Can a 3 guard lineup work defensively against teams like UNC, KY and Syracuse with protypical small forwards that are 6'7-6'8. Hubert made an interesting point yesterday during the broadcast (and I know it has been brought up before on DBR) that Duke may have a problem matching up with HB of UNC because of size mismatches. Silent G could play a pivotal role as the team continues to develop in regards to matching up with those types of teams. If MG were to continue to develop and make shots, would the team ultimately be best starting MG and QC while bringing Seth, Andre and Tyler off the bench? I know it may sound crazy bringing Seth off the bench; but from a defensive matchup perspective, a starting 5 with MG and QC (again assuming MG consistently makes shots and QC improves defensively) along with Austin, Ryan and MP2 could matchup defensively with any team and still provide a punch offensively. In addition, the bench would be incredibly loaded with firepower bringing Andre and Seth off the bench to go with MP1, Tyler and Josh.

I doubt it would happen and I can't see Seth coming off the bench because he is one of our 5 best players; but I thought I put this out there to get your thoughts. Please don't roast me too badly for mentioning this.:)
Hubert did make that point, although I thought he made too much of it.

Although I'd love to see Michael earn more minutes at the 3, last night's game didn't give me a lot of hope that it will happen this year. I thought our offense suffered when he was in. To be fair, he looked better the game before. Having said that, he didn't play much, if at all, until there were only about 10 minutes left, making me think that the coaches didn't think he had earned more time. (It's also possible they thought he didn't match up well with Penn's perimeter.)

Also, although we may have a matchup problem with big 3s, especially those that post up, having the other team's 3 guard Austin or Andre can be a matchup advantage for us.

I hope he earns the minutes this year, but he's got to improve quite a bit.

Newton_14
01-02-2012, 01:02 PM
Some stats I think are interesting:

Miles, our one big man who has never been much of a shotblocker, has averaged 3.0 blocks per game in his last five games (4.0 in his last two).

Andre, who people were legitimately claiming hasn't rebounded enough, is averaging 3.75 rebounds per game in his last four games.

Quinn has a 10.5 assist to turnover ratio in his last five games (4.83 for the season).

Seth tonight, playing alongside Tyler:
17+ minutes; 1 for 8 shooting (1 for 3 from 2-point; 0 for 5 from 3-point), plus 2 for 2 FTs, for 4 points.

Seth tonight, playing without Tyler:
7+ minutes; 4 for 5 shooting (1 for 2 from 2-point; 3 for 3 from 3-point) for 11 points.

Yes, I know it could still be a coincidence. But I don't think it is.

In fairness, did you also run the same numbers for the WMU game? I would be interested to see those. I was at that game and Seth played at a high level the entire game, irregardless of who his running mate was. Not discounting your overall point, but also not convinced yet, the two things are related.

I actually lean towards the thought the ankly injury Seth had, played more of a role in his mini-slump, than Tyler starting did. It will be interesting to watch this moving forward though.

ncexnyc
01-02-2012, 01:14 PM
Can a 3 guard lineup work defensively against teams like UNC, KY and Syracuse with protypical small forwards that are 6'7-6'8. Hubert made an interesting point yesterday during the broadcast (and I know it has been brought up before on DBR) that Duke may have a problem matching up with HB of UNC because of size mismatches. Silent G could play a pivotal role as the team continues to develop in regards to matching up with those types of teams. If MG were to continue to develop and make shots, would the team ultimately be best starting MG and QC while bringing Seth, Andre and Tyler off the bench? I know it may sound crazy bringing Seth off the bench; but from a defensive matchup perspective, a starting 5 with MG and QC (again assuming MG consistently makes shots and QC improves defensively) along with Austin, Ryan and MP2 could matchup defensively with any team and still provide a punch offensively. In addition, the bench would be incredibly loaded with firepower bringing Andre and Seth off the bench to go with MP1, Tyler and Josh.

I doubt it would happen and I can't see Seth coming off the bench because he is one of our 5 best players; but I thought I put this out there to get your thoughts. Please don't roast me too badly for mentioning this.:)

Your question is perfectly legit. I wrote several weeks ago that come March our starting line-up would be vastly different and some people were very skeptical about that. Well since then Andre has been moved into the 6th man role and we are witnessing a great competition between Tyler and Quinn for the PG job. I think itís safe to say that the Curry experiment as our starting PG was about as successful as the Nolan Smith experiment was several years ago.

Now everyone knew this team was deep, but the question was, would the pieces fit and could they play coherently as a team. I still believe this team will feature our longest bench in quite sometime. Iím also beginning to wonder if anyone aside from Austin is a sure bet to be a starter. Now Iím sure some will question what Iíve just said, but to me itís looking more and more as each player develops that Coach K will go with match-ups.

So now I return to your original question. You mentioned large wing players and specifically HB. Now HB is someone who doesnít get much love around here and some even want to dismiss his ability, but deep down in everyoneís heart they know this is the one heel we really donít have a proven answer for. Can I foresee a Duke line-up that has enough firepower to play a kid whose sole function is to stop HB? Yes, I do. Is that player Silent G? Again, yes. Is he there yet? No, he isnít, but I see the physical skills and believe he can become that player by the time the season ends.

Now I realize there are a lot of ifs involved in this. If Mason and Ryan can continue to be viable scoring threats. If Quinn becomes the PG that increases the offensive productivity of all the other players. If Austin/Seth continue their progression in becoming lights out scorers. If some or all of these things happen I could easily see us going with a purely defensive stopper on the wing. Heck we won a National Championship with Lance Thomas as our 4 and he wasnít what anyone would call a gifted offensive player.

This team is still in flux and I honestly believe weíll see more changes to our line-up as the season progresses

ncexnyc
01-02-2012, 01:18 PM
Hubert did make that point, although I thought he made too much of it.

Although I'd love to see Michael earn more minutes at the 3, last night's game didn't give me a lot of hope that it will happen this year. I thought our offense suffered when he was in. To be fair, he looked better the game before. Having said that, he didn't play much, if at all, until there were only about 10 minutes left, making me think that the coaches didn't think he had earned more time. (It's also possible they thought he didn't match up well with Penn's perimeter.)

Also, although we may have a matchup problem with big 3s, especially those that post up, having the other team's 3 guard Austin or Andre can be a matchup advantage for us.

I hope he earns the minutes this year, but he's got to improve quite a bit.

Your comments about match-ups going both ways is completely spot on. I guess that is something Coach K always weighs when making lineup decisions.

Jderf
01-02-2012, 01:22 PM
I think it’s safe to say that the Curry experiment as our starting PG was about as successful as the Nolan Smith experiment was several years ago.

I hope you're only referring to the first "Nolan Smith experiment," because as I recall, the second time around it seemed to go pretty well.

millerecu
01-02-2012, 01:36 PM
Was how easy Duke's conference schedule is when they were talking about Duke and Carowina fighting it out as the top dog. I am pretty sure he said it 3 or 4 times. While he did go into the fact he hates the fact the conferences are large and you cant play a round robin anymore....it was like he was setting himself up for the end of the year when he can say.....well they are the champs because.....

Newton_14
01-02-2012, 03:02 PM
Your question is perfectly legit. I wrote several weeks ago that come March our starting line-up would be vastly different and some people were very skeptical about that. Well since then Andre has been moved into the 6th man role and we are witnessing a great competition between Tyler and Quinn for the PG job. I think itís safe to say that the Curry experiment as our starting PG was about as successful as the Nolan Smith experiment was several years ago.

Actually that is not a good comparison. Nolan was a sophomore searching for his identity as a player. In the early going it worked out well, but once conference play started, the offense went awry. Plus Zoubek was a starter in the early going as well, and his play also declined when conference play started. Nolan brought the defense that K wanted at the point, but struggled with the offense.

Seth is a red-shirt junior with much more experience now than Nolan had as a Soph. In the 8 games that Seth started at the point, Duke went 7-1 against a brutal schedule, won the Maui tourney, and scored wins against a good Belmont team, Mich St, Tenn, Michigan, and Kansas. Seth played great in all games except for the OSU debacle where all but Austin and Mason stunk it up.

K decided to make change #1 at the point (inserting Tyler to defend the opposing PG, moving Andre to 6th Man), not because of offense, but because of defense. With a perimeter of Seth, Austin, and Andre, Duke was not getting the level of pressure defense on the opposing teams PG, that he wanted to see. So K made the change, in his words, "to improve the periment defense, specifically on the opposing PG"

Now that Quinn is getting healthy and in shape, and is starting to figure things out on defense, K made change #2 (Platooning Quinn and Tyler at the point), as K now feels Quinn can also apply the level of ball pressure he wants to see. With this move, however, there is the byproduct of an offensive element. Quinn brings natural PG abilities on the offensive side that allows Duke to play faster for one, and two, adds a 2nd penetrator that can dish or finish, along with seeing the floor better with the ability to get the ball to his teammates in positions where they can score more easily. Great stuff.

But, it does come with a price, as it makes us smaller on the perimeter when neither Andre nor Mike are in the game. I am interested to see what K does to deal with that when Duke is playing teams like UNC and OSU with bigger Small Forwards. Austin may surprise us and defend an HB well for example, or K will show us yet some new wrinkle. Andre will likely have to play heavier minutes in those type games, which could mean Seth and Austin sharing time at the 2. Mike G seems to be coming along nicely as well, especially his defense. Would be really nice if he develops enough this year to allow K to play him in a defensive specialist type role even if it is only spot minutes in tough games. Something to watch.


At any rate, concerning Seth, I think some have forgotten how well he played offensively in those first 7 games while playing the point. K did not make the change because of Seth's or the teams offense. He made the change for defense.

Saratoga2
01-02-2012, 03:29 PM
But, it does come with a price, as it makes us smaller on the perimeter when neither Andre nor Mike are in the game. I am interested to see what K does to deal with that when Duke is playing teams like UNC and OSU with bigger Small Forwards. Austin may surprise us and defend an HB well for example, or K will show us yet some new wrinkle. Andre will likely have to play heavier minutes in those type games, which could mean Seth and Austin sharing time at the 2. Mike G seems to be coming along nicely as well, especially his defense. Would be really nice if he develops enough this year to allow K to play him in a defensive specialist type role even if it is only spot minutes in tough games. Something to watch.



That is the question going forward, how will we handle playing against teams with size at the shooting guard and small forward position, let along the PG? Clearly our options include Andre and Michael subbing in for either Seth or Austin. Since Austin has pretty good size it would more likely be Seth. We did see at least a hint of this in the Penn game, as coach K tried several variations of that lineup in the game later in the second half.

Kedsy
01-02-2012, 08:54 PM
Can a 3 guard lineup work defensively against teams like UNC, KY and Syracuse with protypical small forwards that are 6'7-6'8. Hubert made an interesting point yesterday during the broadcast (and I know it has been brought up before on DBR) that Duke may have a problem matching up with HB of UNC because of size mismatches. Silent G could play a pivotal role as the team continues to develop in regards to matching up with those types of teams. If MG were to continue to develop and make shots, would the team ultimately be best starting MG and QC while bringing Seth, Andre and Tyler off the bench? I know it may sound crazy bringing Seth off the bench; but from a defensive matchup perspective, a starting 5 with MG and QC (again assuming MG consistently makes shots and QC improves defensively) along with Austin, Ryan and MP2 could matchup defensively with any team and still provide a punch offensively. In addition, the bench would be incredibly loaded with firepower bringing Andre and Seth off the bench to go with MP1, Tyler and Josh.

I doubt it would happen and I can't see Seth coming off the bench because he is one of our 5 best players; but I thought I put this out there to get your thoughts. Please don't roast me too badly for mentioning this.:)

I know I sound like a broken record, but I think we have to distinguish between things we want to see and things that have a realistic chance of happening. First of all, and I realize some people will say this doesn't matter, but I believe you have to go back to 1982-83 for the last time a Duke team regularly started three freshmen (as we would if Quinn and Michael joined Austin in the starting lineup). It's been very rare that we've regularly started even two freshmen. And there's a reason for that -- experience counts in college basketball.

Second, if Michael and Quinn were in the starting lineup, that either means we go nine deep or one of Seth, Andre, or Tyler will hardly play at all. Duke in the K era has almost never gone more than eight deep (in close or tough games once ACC play begins), and doesn't even go more than seven deep very often under Coach K. The reason for this appears to be that K likes to play his top few players 30 to 35 minutes in the big and/or close games, and there just aren't enough minutes to go around. In this light, it just seems so unlikely we'd go nine or ten deep this season. I expect Michael's and Josh's minutes to decline, starting next week. And if we don't go nine deep, and Michael and Quinn start, it means one of Seth, Andre, or Tyler would be relegated to spot minutes. Which seems even less likely than going nine deep, at least to me.

Finally, just because Michael made a couple three-pointers in a 40-point rout the other day doesn't mean he's ready on offense. He's clearly not. I'm sure he'll get there, hopefully as soon as next season, but right now both the eye test and the stats suggest he's by far our worst offensive player. And personally, while I see the length and athleticism and potential, I haven't seen anything to date that suggests he's a superior option on defense, either. Not yet, anyway.

Combining all of the above reasons, I'd be absolutely shocked if we regularly start all of Quinn, Michael, and Austin.


If some or all of these things happen I could easily see us going with a purely defensive stopper on the wing. Heck we won a National Championship with Lance Thomas as our 4 and he wasnít what anyone would call a gifted offensive player.

Lance as a senior was a significantly better offensive player than Michael is right now. It's not even close. (Defensively, too, obviously.)


In fairness, did you also run the same numbers for the WMU game? I would be interested to see those. I was at that game and Seth played at a high level the entire game, irregardless of who his running mate was. Not discounting your overall point, but also not convinced yet, the two things are related.

I actually lean towards the thought the ankly injury Seth had, played more of a role in his mini-slump, than Tyler starting did. It will be interesting to watch this moving forward though.

I hadn't run the numbers from Western Michigan, but since you asked I just did. And you're right that Seth played well both with and without Tyler. His scoring rate was higher without Tyler (9 points in 7+ minutes w/o Tyler vs. 13 points in 16+ minutes with Tyler) but I can't in fairness disagree with your observation. I don't think it proves or disproves anything though; I'd be shocked if anything like this happened 100% of the time. I still think it's something to keep an eye on.

Kfanarmy
01-02-2012, 11:41 PM
No question that whenever Hubert Davis says something we should all stop what we're doing and comment on it. He said a lot of other things I thought were silly, but I'm not commenting on those either.

Assist to turnover ratio is just one way of saying an offense isn't efficient. Except our offense this year is pretty efficient, so I'm not sure how much a/to matters. In 2006-07 (the year Hubert referenced), Pomeroy rated our offense as the 40th best in the country. This year, so far, he rates us as the 4th best in the country. Big difference. To me, that's more worthy of comment than either Hubert Davis's wisdom or your pessimism. comment at all?

ncexnyc
01-02-2012, 11:57 PM
Of course I realize Lance was a senior and Mike is only a freshman, but I see his potential, which is what Iím basing my comments on. Before we hear anymore outlandish claims about how superior Lance is to Mike, letís look at some numbers, since these are what so many of you get all hot and bothered over.
Lance:
Minutes PG FG% 3PT% FT% RPG AST TO STL BLK PF PPG
19.7 53.2 0 60.9 3.7 .5 1.2 .6 .3 2.8 4.6
Mike:
9.3 57.1 42.9 100 1.1 .3 .7 .2 .1 1.3 2.7
Now Iím not a math whiz, so maybe someone who is could explain to me how Lance is significantly better than Mike based on the numbers above.
Iíd also mention Lance got a lot of playing time his freshman year due to the composition of that team. The frontcourt players were McRoberts, Zoubek, Boykin(3 games), McClure, and Lance. I think that while weíre deeper in the frontcourt this year, we do have a need for a 3 and that is the opportunity Mike can seize upon to get more playing time if not the actual starting spot. Some of you were quick to dismiss Tyler and Quinn for the more seasoned player Seth and we saw how thatís turned out. I wouldnít be so quick to dis Mike, he just might surprise you if given the chance. As I said before there are a lot of ifs involved, but I like Mikeís chances, especially in light of a serious need at that position.

sagegrouse
01-03-2012, 01:17 AM
Of course I realize Lance was a senior and Mike is only a freshman, but I see his potential, which is what Iím basing my comments on. Before we hear anymore outlandish claims about how superior Lance is to Mike, letís look at some numbers, since these are what so many of you get all hot and bothered over.


Lance:
Minutes PG FG% 3PT% FT% RPG AST TO STL BLK PF PPG
19.7 53.2 0 60.9 3.7 .5 1.2 .6 .3 2.8 4.6
Mike:
9.3 57.1 42.9 100 1.1 .3 .7 .2 .1 1.3 2.7

Now Iím not a math whiz, so maybe someone who is could explain to me how Lance is significantly better than Mike based on the numbers above.
Iíd also mention Lance got a lot of playing time his freshman year due to the composition of that team. The frontcourt players were McRoberts, Zoubek, Boykin(3 games), McClure, and Lance. I think that while weíre deeper in the frontcourt this year, we do have a need for a 3 and that is the opportunity Mike can seize upon to get more playing time if not the actual starting spot. Some of you were quick to dismiss Tyler and Quinn for the more seasoned player Seth and we saw how thatís turned out. I wouldnít be so quick to dis Mike, he just might surprise you if given the chance. As I said before there are a lot of ifs involved, but I like Mikeís chances, especially in light of a serious need at that position.

Are these for a comparable number of games, or is this Lance for the entire freshman year vs. Mike for 12 games? It looks like Lance is getting twice the minutes of Mike with comparably larger numbers. Not sure about the conclusion.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
01-03-2012, 10:03 AM
Before we hear anymore outlandish claims about how superior Lance is to Mike, let’s look at some numbers, since these are what so many of you get all hot and bothered over.
Lance:
Minutes PG FG% 3PT% FT% RPG AST TO STL BLK PF PPG
19.7 53.2 0 60.9 3.7 .5 1.2 .6 .3 2.8 4.6
Mike:
9.3 57.1 42.9 100 1.1 .3 .7 .2 .1 1.3 2.7
Now I’m not a math whiz, so maybe someone who is could explain to me how Lance is significantly better than Mike based on the numbers above.

These are Lance's career numbers, right? Are you suggesting that we can meaningfully compare a career including 101 starts to someone playing 9 minutes a game (in only 9 games; if you count DNPs as 0 minutes, Michael has only played 6.5 mpg), mostly in garbage time?


I wouldn’t be so quick to dis Mike, he just might surprise you if given the chance.

It isn't "dis"ing someone to suggest they're not ready to start or play big minutes at a top five program. Michael will get his chance, just probably not this year.

dukeballboy88
01-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Moving Silent G into the starting lineup would make us better defensively over night. And wiith more minutes comes more touches and he could easily avg 10 ppg because he has a nice shot and he hangs around the basket cleaning up garbage. With the way Quinn is playing im on board with the youth movement right now. Start Quinn, Austin and Michael from here on out and bring some heavy fire power off the bench with Andre and Seth.

Duvall
01-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Finally, just because Michael made a couple three-pointers in a 40-point rout the other day doesn't mean he's ready on offense. He's clearly not. I'm sure he'll get there, hopefully as soon as next season, but right now both the eye test and the stats suggest he's by far our worst offensive player.

Do they? Not that it matters much, but Gbinije has at least shown a willingness to limit himself to quality shots (layups, dunks and open 3s). At least he isn't wasting possessions with low-percentage attempts.

jv001
01-03-2012, 10:51 AM
Moving Silent G into the starting lineup would make us better defensively over night. And wiith more minutes comes more touches and he could easily avg 10 ppg because he has a nice shot and he hangs around the basket cleaning up garbage. With the way Quinn is playing im on board with the youth movement right now. Start Quinn, Austin and Michael from here on out and bring some heavy fire power off the bench with Andre and Seth.

I respect your opinion, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. I believe MG will be a very good player for Duke in the future. Maybe as a soon as next year, but he's not going to crack the starting rotation this close to the ACC play. I love this team because I too see a bright future for Alex, Michael, Quinn, Marshall and super star future for Austin. But Coach K is not going to drop minutes for Ryan, Mason, Miles, Andre, Seth, Austin, Tyler and Quinn. There are just so minutes that can be played in a ball game. I love your enthusiasm for the young guys, but Coach K will probably not start 3 freshman. GoDuke!

feldspar
01-03-2012, 10:53 AM
Can I just say that it's lunacy, pure lunacy, to suggest bringing Seth Curry off the bench.

Just lunacy.

Kedsy
01-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Do they? Not that it matters much, but Gbinije has at least shown a willingness to limit himself to quality shots (layups, dunks and open 3s). At least he isn't wasting possessions with low-percentage attempts.

Well, I suppose that's true. And it's a good sign, as far as it goes. But when I watch him on offense, he doesn't appear to know what to do yet. Also, I don't think we've seen enough to know whether an open three is a quality shot for Michael. He hit two threes in a two minute span against Western Michigan and other than those two shots he's shooting 1 for 7 from 3-land. Without seeing more of him, it's hard to know if the two he hit in quick succession were flukes or not.

hustleplays
01-03-2012, 11:04 AM
From earlier post: "But, it does come with a price, as it makes us smaller on the perimeter when neither Andre nor Mike are in the game. I am interested to see what K does to deal with that when Duke is playing teams like UNC and OSU with bigger Small Forwards. Austin may surprise us and defend an HB well for example, or K will show us yet some new wrinkle."

My belief [and certainly hope] is that Austin's defense will continue to improve -- a lot. I believe that he will become proficient, while not being our total answer, in defending against strong, tall, athletic forwards. While he gives away some height, Austin has advantages over many opposing SFs: elite, complete athleticism and fierce competitiveness. His development so far has been outstanding -- remember his first several games? On offense he has matured and expanded his game into a very proficient scorer and team player. While it's more difficult for me to see his defensive improvement, we can be confident that the coaching staff has been working intensively on D with him. Austin is gifted and wants to play, and star, in the NBA. He knows that he must become an excellent defensive player to do that. He's in the perfect D-league for him, and we are going to reap the benefits as this season progresses, IMNSHO.

Love both Quinn and Tyler. Offense flowing better. I marvel at how Coach is using these guys. I'm one of those who wanted to see more of Quinn at point, but the staff made it clear more recently that his post-injury physical well-being and conditioning -- along with readiness -- limited his playing time. I also love Tyler's floor leadership, intensity, D and just all around peskiness. It elevates the team.

btw, it's cool to keep in mind that Tyler helped recruit Kyrie, while knowing that Kyrie would cetainly take away many minutes of PT. Tyler said that it was right for Duke and for Kyrie. Nice to see for Tyler how this has worked out.

ncexnyc
01-03-2012, 11:07 AM
I respect your opinion, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. I believe MG will be a very good player for Duke in the future. Maybe as a soon as next year, but he's not going to crack the starting rotation this close to the ACC play. I love this team because I too see a bright future for Alex, Michael, Quinn, Marshall and super star future for Austin. But Coach K is not going to drop minutes for Ryan, Mason, Miles, Andre, Seth, Austin, Tyler and Quinn. There are just so minutes that can be played in a ball game. I love your enthusiasm for the young guys, but Coach K will probably not start 3 freshman. GoDuke!

What is the mantra concerning playing time on this board? Playing time is earned in practice and you have to be able to play defense.

Did anyone on this board foresee Paulus being relegated to the bench his senior year? I doubt it very much, but it happened.

What's one of Coach K's best traits, which we love to talk about, especially when putting Ol' Roy down? K's willingness to shape his team into a style that matches his player's abilities.

I believe myself and others still see a need for a large capable wing player on this team and we see that in Mike. Yes, there's a question on whether he can get there this year, but we see the potential. I like what I've seen so far in regards to Mike's physical tools and his basketball skillset as well. Again it comes down to what each player brings to the table and how that all fits together to make a cohesive team, only time will tell.

jimsumner
01-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Moving Silent G into the starting lineup would make us better defensively over night. And wiith more minutes comes more touches and he could easily avg 10 ppg because he has a nice shot and he hangs around the basket cleaning up garbage. With the way Quinn is playing im on board with the youth movement right now. Start Quinn, Austin and Michael from here on out and bring some heavy fire power off the bench with Andre and Seth.

I think MG can and will be useful this season in situations where Duke needs a big wing on D.

And I see some Chris Carrawell in him. Gonna be a good one. Down the line.

But. If we assume that Thornton and Cook will receive all or most of the minutes at the point from here on in, then staring MG, means two of Rivers, Curry and Dawkins aren't starting.

That simply is not a rational allocation of resources. Rivers and Curry have to be on the floor for a combined 55-65 mpg against better teams. And those minutes have to come from MG.

I do find it fascinating that, going into conference play, we're devoting this much time on whether a 12-1 team is properly using its 10th man.

superdave
01-03-2012, 12:27 PM
Of course I realize Lance was a senior and Mike is only a freshman, but I see his potential, which is what I’m basing my comments on. Before we hear anymore outlandish claims about how superior Lance is to Mike, let’s look at some numbers, since these are what so many of you get all hot and bothered over.
Lance:
Minutes PG FG% 3PT% FT% RPG AST TO STL BLK PF PPG
19.7 53.2 0 60.9 3.7 .5 1.2 .6 .3 2.8 4.6
Mike:
9.3 57.1 42.9 100 1.1 .3 .7 .2 .1 1.3 2.7
Now I’m not a math whiz, so maybe someone who is could explain to me how Lance is significantly better than Mike based on the numbers above.
I’d also mention Lance got a lot of playing time his freshman year due to the composition of that team. The frontcourt players were McRoberts, Zoubek, Boykin(3 games), McClure, and Lance. I think that while we’re deeper in the frontcourt this year, we do have a need for a 3 and that is the opportunity Mike can seize upon to get more playing time if not the actual starting spot. Some of you were quick to dismiss Tyler and Quinn for the more seasoned player Seth and we saw how that’s turned out. I wouldn’t be so quick to dis Mike, he just might surprise you if given the chance. As I said before there are a lot of ifs involved, but I like Mike’s chances, especially in light of a serious need at that position.

Lance's freshman year, (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/season-stats.php?season=2006-07) our front court rotation consisted of McRoberts, Zoubek and McClure. McClure was a glue guy/defensive stopper, McRoberts played pretty well (13 and 8) and Zoubek only averaged 7 minutes a game and was not ready for the speed of the game.

We needed Lance to play the 4 and 5 that year, and that was a 22-11 team that lost to State in round 1 of the ACC tourney and to VCU in the first round of the NCAAs. That team had two 4-game losing streaks and there was a meltdown on the DBR boards that year.

That being said, we could certainly use MG in certain situations this year. But I think we'll be better in March if other guys get the minutes Mike would be getting right now under this argument. MG's growth this year is more a luxury than a necessity.

Now I do think the more we run and push the pace, the more often we'll sub guys in and out which could mean more opportunity for minutes for Mike. I could see Mike and Josh getting in for a 2-3 minute burst in the first half of most games with the bench shortening in the second half. But I would conclude by saying you should only rely on a freshman if they are playing great (Austin, Quinn) or out of necessity (Lance).

OldPhiKap
01-03-2012, 12:35 PM
I do find it fascinating that, going into conference play, we're devoting this much time on whether a 12-1 team is properly using its 10th man.

Well, we have a coach who dwells on where everyone sits on the bench. So at least our attention to detail matches the boss.

;>)


(but I am in agreement with Jim. We will have plenty of opportunities over the years to enjoy silent {g} and the others as they mature through the program).

ncexnyc
01-03-2012, 12:46 PM
I think MG can and will be useful this season in situations where Duke needs a big wing on D.

And I see some Chris Carrawell in him. Gonna be a good one. Down the line.

But. If we assume that Thornton and Cook will receive all or most of the minutes at the point from here on in, then staring MG, means two of Rivers, Curry and Dawkins aren't starting.

That simply is not a rational allocation of resources. Rivers and Curry have to be on the floor for a combined 55-65 mpg against better teams. And those minutes have to come from MG.

I do find it fascinating that, going into conference play, we're devoting this much time on whether a 12-1 team is properly using its 10th man.

I guess we should all be complacent with a 12-1 record, but I don't believe Coach K and his staff are. Conference play, in the grand scheme of things isn't it just an arbitrary cutoff date? I'm not sure this team is like many others we've watched in the past. We entered the season with a lot of potentially excellent players, but none had clear established credentials to show that they could fill the roles they were being asked to play on this team.

As the season has progressed some of them have cemented their place and role on the team, while others are still searching to find themselves. The conference is said to be down this year and if that's true, then why wouldn't the staff continue to tinker with line-ups?

I'm just not sold that the team we are currently seeing on the floor is the finished product and that more changes will be made down the line. I guess we'll find out how all of this shakes out the next few games. If the bench gets drastically shorter, then it's business as usual, but if we stay with a deeper rotation then I think we'll be witnessing a subtle change in how things are done at Duke.:)

superdave
01-03-2012, 01:12 PM
I guess we should all be complacent with a 12-1 record, but I don't believe Coach K and his staff are.

Who exactly is complacent here? Strange comment...

Consider the late season jumps in minutes and ask yourself if MG is likely to make such a leap:

Elliot Williams moved into the rotation to provide some on the ball defense after Paulus' minutes fell and Nolan got cracked on the head vs Maryland. Chris Duhon began to start and play more because Boozer broke his foot. Who else? It may happen as a result of need, but I think it's unlikely.

BD80
01-03-2012, 01:50 PM
I appreciate your optimism and your spin on the stats but I'll bet you've never donned a Duke BBall jersey in your illustrious travels....I have. ...

I believe I recall being seated (actually standing - we rarely sat) in Cameron in the late 70's and seeing Kedsey in a Duke jersey.

If being a player imbues one with superior basketball insight, why are Clark Kellogg and Len Elmore such morons? They didn't just wear the jersey, they played in games, they started games, they scored points, they played in the tournament and won conference and/or national honors. And they still can't analyze a game as well as Kedsey can.

Bilas was a coach, and has taken his job as a professional analyst seriously - he is by far the best. Kellog and Elmore are lazy, just spouting the bs that they are fed by SIDs at each stop, and regurgitaing worn out opinions about teams and coaches. Dickie V is much the same.

Statistical analyses of so few games with such wide variation in factors is highly suspect, but at least provides some basis for opinion. I would suggest that Kedsey's experience over the last 40 or so years watching and breaking down college basketball games makes his statistical analyses more relevant than many opinions of those who may have "donned a jersey."

jv001
01-03-2012, 02:56 PM
What is the mantra concerning playing time on this board? Playing time is earned in practice and you have to be able to play defense.

Did anyone on this board foresee Paulus being relegated to the bench his senior year? I doubt it very much, but it happened.

What's one of Coach K's best traits, which we love to talk about, especially when putting Ol' Roy down? K's willingness to shape his team into a style that matches his player's abilities.

I believe myself and others still see a need for a large capable wing player on this team and we see that in Mike. Yes, there's a question on whether he can get there this year, but we see the potential. I like what I've seen so far in regards to Mike's physical tools and his basketball skillset as well. Again it comes down to what each player brings to the table and how that all fits together to make a cohesive team, only time will tell.

I think that I said the same thing about Mike. He's a very talented player and will probably be a star for Duke. I just don't see him cracking the starting lineup. Does that mean he won't come off the bench against unc and hold barnes to 8 points. He could certainly do that. Look what Fred Lind and Robby West did. No one expected that either. I'm just don't see MG getting major minutes in many games. GoDuke!

jimsumner
01-03-2012, 03:05 PM
There are 200 player-minutes per game. Every minute Gbinije plays is a minute not played by one of Dawkins, Curry or Rivers. Or Thornton or Cook, if Seth plays some at point. Or one of the posts, if MG plays at the 4.

So, the questions remain. Who would sit while MG starts? How would limiting PT for All-ACC caliber players like Curry and Rivers help Duke? Or should Duke forget about Dawkins, a junior, who's one of the nation's best 3-point shooters, in preference to a freshman role player?

Because, that's what we're talking about.

If Gbinije becomes a better overall player this year than Rivers or Curry, then that's a great problem to have. But that's a long way from happening.

SharkD
01-03-2012, 03:24 PM
I'm going to totally derail the back-and-forth, to post this, the first of a couple of shots from the gam (I had the opportunity to drag a long lens up to the crow's nest.):

It would be perfectly cromulent, should you click to embiggen:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7147/6620993787_83a1c07024.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dvsmith/6620993787/)

wilko
01-03-2012, 03:47 PM
There are 200 player-minutes per game. Every minute Gbinije plays is a minute not played by one of Dawkins, Curry or Rivers. Or Thornton or Cook, if Seth plays some at point. Or one of the posts, if MG plays at the 4.

So, the questions remain. Who would sit while MG starts? How would limiting PT for All-ACC caliber players like Curry and Rivers help Duke? Or should Duke forget about Dawkins, a junior, who's one of the nation's best 3-point shooters, in preference to a freshman role player?

The BEST way to get Josh and G some more playing time is to keep pouring it on and get big leads. The recent games they have gotten some good burn in were not close. This builds game confidence for these guys. A game closing O-rebound flush.... thats confidence practice cant teach. Josh getting double digit points... Josh didnt sniff that last year and happy to see this from him. (more on this in General Observations)

Sooner or later we will run into a team that shuts us down and frustates us... (wether its that magical game where we look completely inept, or that game where we get lazy from reading too many of our press clippings) and when K is looking for a spark to build some momentum, have hustle, show heart, these are the guys that are gonna go in and try to get it done. Better he knows what they can do and that they have the confidence to deliver and not be a deer in the headlights.

General Observations and random ramblings..
My uninformed laymans view is that with Quinn stepping up the perimeter game is reinventing itself to accomodate him. prior to Quinns rise, we had a few games where we focused long stretches of the game on getting Mason and Miles post touches to run thru them and develop confidence. That was successful. We've gotten away from that to a degree...

Right now, Josh is getting those post buckets and G to a lesser extent. I cant help but think as Quinn becomes better integrated into the Offense MP1 or MP2 is gonna be on the recieving end of those post feeds. (Josh seems to be able to hit a FT so if we have foul trouble saddle MP1 or MP2 in conference play maybe he can provide a boost.)

I cant wait to see a game where the whole team brings their "A" game and looks good in all phases.
We've yet to see Duke play their best this year and thats very exciting to me.

I cant recall an extended game sequence where AR and QC were the primary handlers on the peremiter. (I get excited during games so I may have missed it) It seems that the staff prefers to have someone experienced paired with them. Stability perhaps?

I like the uptic in Miles game. Hes active and producing.