MBB: Duke 90, UNC-G 63 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[Gthoma2a]

This game was Quinn's. Austin and Mason played very well, Andre hit shots, Gbinije showed that he is going to be able to do more than expected by some, and Hairston hit some good shots, but this was Quinn's application to the PG spot.

[superdave]

This game was Quinn's. Austin and Mason played very well, Andre hit shots, Gbinije showed that he is going to be able to do more than expected by some, and Hairston hit some good shots, but this was Quinn's application to the PG spot.

Well, it was vs. Greensboro. I'd like to see really good D, a consistent jumper and some leadership qualities over the course of several games before I'm willing to make the leap. He earned some more minutes, now let's see some consistency.

Super "OMG Quinn!" Dave

[jv001]

After a rather sluggish first half, we played much better in the 2nd half. The first half high lights were the 3s we hit to shake a pesky unc-G squad. As for the 2nd half, it looked like the Quinn Cook show. When Tyler got that 4th foul, Quinn came in and played very well offensively and defensively. Good game from Mason and Andre as well. GoDuke!

[delfrio]

This game was Quinn's. Austin and Mason played very well, Andre hit shots, Gbinije showed that he is going to be able to do more than expected by some, and Hairston hit some good shots, but this was Quinn's application to the PG spot.

Cook had a good second half and I without a doubt think he is our point guard of the future, but this wasn't his game (meaning he wasn't the difference-maker). He didn't score until we were up 18 and had early turnovers. In the first half, I actually came to understand why we need Tyler out there. In such a sloppy mess, he was the only one taking care of the ball and not forcing bad plays. Cook is definitely a better bball player, and I hope he lights it up in the future, but I think at this point, the team needs someone more stable with the ball.

[superdave]

Greensboro was shooting 47% at the half, but only finished at 41% so our D improved. I'd attribute most of the difference in play to hustle. Greensboro won the hustle battle the first 10 minutes, we won it most of the final 30. Not sure there's any grand conclusions to draw from tonight.

[Saratoga2]

I expected rust, but this was malaise. Getting outhustled, big guys bringing the ball down and getting stripped, poor passing and a lot of turnovers. After exams, they are likely to come out slow, but this was worse than I expected. It took a great deal of the first half to get going, with the defense really leading the way by slowing them down and then we hit a few threes and were off to the races.

The good
Much better defense in the second half, until we really mixed some inexperienced players in. Great bench support, one might say better than the starters in some cases. Good shooting.
Quinn Cook looked really good at point, and it wasn't only his scoring. He handles the ball extremely well and has the best ball security of any of our guards. He also made very good decisions and passes out of the point.
While Miles started the game weakly, he became a defensive and rebounding force out there. I thought he had regressed during part of the first half, but one has to appreciate his defense and rebounding. Too bad there were no points though.
Michael looked good off the bench. You can see him being a help going forward. He can defend, handles well for his size and can get his shots off.
Mason was a beast out there scoring and rebounding.
Ryan started slowly but played a good game after the first 10 minutes.
Austin picked up 14 points quietly. They weren't letting him penetrate often so he went to the 3 pointer.
Dawkins also chipped in with scoring and defended well once the first part of the games blues passed.

Not so good
Mason's foul shooting
Way too many turnovers,. I was particularly surprised by Seth's propensity to turn the ball over and compound the problem with a foul.


Coming out of the game, coach K should have no issue playing Quinn at point for extended minutes and subbing Michael in as well.This team will need to come ready to play and perhaps this game can be used as a teaching moment for games to follow.

[weezie]

Surprised at how much holding and shoving the refs were pointedly overlooking. Ryan and his guy were yapping and banging all up and down the court. The rugby scrum for the ball in 2nd half with Miles in the center of it all was rather acrobatic. Too many of our guys were thrown to the floor after arm locks.
And I still dislike Wes Miller.

[Gthoma2a]

Well, it was vs. Greensboro. I'd like to see really good D, a consistent jumper and some leadership qualities over the course of several games before I'm willing to make the leap. He earned some more minutes, now let's see some consistency.

Super "OMG Quinn!" Dave

I have been sold on him since I saw him lead Oak Hill the tournament after the McDonald's All American game. He plays with passion and skill. I think that he is the best combination of both that we have. We will see how it holds up.

[NYBri]

On this board...tonight he stepped up. hopefully K will give him some more PT so he can develop his game and grow his D.

Not saying we hand him the keys, but he deserves to be in the rotation.

[lotusland]

Tale of two halves for Quinn. He was shaky with the ball in the first half but got his groove on big-time in the 2nd half. The Plums especially Mason took advantage of their size advantage and Austin was a killer when everyone else was in a funk. Seth seems like he's struggling a bit with finding his role. Ryan also isn't having the sort of impact he showed early on. This was a good confidence builder game for Josh and SG too. Count me among those who are hoping QC can earn more of TT minutes going forward.

[dcar1985]

Tale of two halves for Quinn. He was shaky with the ball in the first half but got his groove on big-time in the 2nd half. The Plums especially Mason took advantage of their size advantage and Austin was a killer when everyone else was in a funk. Seth seems like he's struggling a bit with finding his role. Ryan also isn't having the sort of impact he showed early on. This was a good confidence builder game for Josh and SG too. Count me among those who are hoping QC can earn more of TT minutes going forward.

For what its worth...Seth and Ryan are apparently both nursing injuries, Ryan a calf, and Seth an ankle....hopefully the slow schedule through the Holidays gives them a chance to heal up

[loldevilz]

Quinn was on fire in the second half. I think he really opened some eyes today. I'm not sure he should start, but he should definitely play many minutes every game.

I think Miles needs to play more. He brings so much toughness and rebounding that are lacking. Last year we got better when he started and I think the same may happen this year.

Loved to see all the young guys out there. Go Duke!!

[jipops]

Sure Quinn had a nice game but let's keep in mind he did this vs the 300th rated squad on kenpom and his points came at a time when Duke's surge had already been made. He faced very little defensive pressure on his shots though that side-step
layup was nice.

Mason really took control of this game. Atleast 10 of his boards must have been in traffic.

I think Andre is getting overlooked a bit. He still needs work on the defensive end but on offense he's been great lately. The stroke is going and he's done a great job making the extra pass and looking inside.

[devildeac]

I was glad to note the Plumlees played UNC-G even on the boards tonight at 26 all;). (from espn stats)

[hustleplays]

Sure Quinn had a nice game but let's keep in mind he did this vs the 300th rated squad on kenpom and his points came at a time when Duke's surge had already been made. He faced very little defensive pressure on his shots though that side-step
layup was nice.

Mason really took control of this game. Atleast 10 of his boards must have been in traffic.

I think Andre is getting overlooked a bit. He still needs work on the defensive end but on offense he's been great lately. The stroke is going and he's done a great job making the extra pass and looking inside.

Quinn is our only player with elite PG talent. To me, it just seems obvious from watching him [including at Oak Hill], but I know that we all see things differently. We need a true, really good PG especially this year, because our team is young and inexperienced with each other. I love Tyler because he brings intensity and leadership. Evidently Coach agrees. Tyler will likely always have a significant role to play for us, but he doesn't have that high level of PG talent that Quinn has. The more Quinn plays the better he will become. Continue to give him significant minutes and we will have a good PG to help us win in conference.

Nice to see Andre play some good ball, make some shots, as a strong 6th man. Silent G had a very sound game on both ends of the floor.

Go Duke!

[Starter]

Sure Quinn had a nice game but let's keep in mind he did this vs the 300th rated squad on kenpom and his points came at a time when Duke's surge had already been made. He faced very little defensive pressure on his shots though that side-step
layup was nice.



Duke was up 11 at the half, 15 when Quinn came in, and they won by 27. They were up 32 when Zafirovski came in, so that's a pretty decent cutting-off point. Weak competition or not, Cook was decisive, looked great with the ball, had some sweet passes and a good-looking jump shot. It's happening, Penny Lane.

(Not to bag on Tyler -- who busted his tail as usual and was the FIRST person to greet Cook when he came to the bench -- but he had three points, one assist and four fouls in 16 minutes against the 300th rated squad on kenpom.)

Side note: This was my first game in Cameron since I graduated in 2001. Nice to have my most recent game there finally be a win!

Side note 2: I talked to Austin for a bit after the game. Can't say enough about him, what a fun kid. The latest in a long line of class acts during the Krzyzewski era.

[Kedsy]

Quinn is certainly the question. I'm not sure he's the answer yet, though. So far this season, including tonight, what he's shown us is he can score. While that's a bit of a pleasant surprise, we have lots of guys who can score. If he's trying to earn time based on his scoring ability, he'll have to get in line behind Austin, Seth, and Andre. If Quinn wants to start or play big minutes, he'll have to do it with defense, and to a lesser extent by being a classic distributing PG. And so far, we haven't seen either of those things from him.

I agree his handle is smooth, but his assist rate isn't great (4.57 assist per 40 minutes) and his decision making needs some work (2 assists vs. 2 turnovers tonight). And, as many have pointed out, his defense isn't there yet.

Give the guy time. He doesn't really have to be our savior yet.

[Greg_Newton]

IMO, the big question with Quinn is still defense against, say Tyshaun Taylor, Marquis Teague, Kendall Marshall, etc... the elite PGs of the country. Is he big enough and quick enough? Can he create as well against them as he can against an overmatched team of 6'2 players? Tonight was a five-star matchup for Quinn, but it doesn't really matter how good he looks against bad-to-decent teams if he can't do the same things against the great teams we need to beat.

My new wish is for us to experiment with the following lineup:

PG - Rivers
SG - Curry
SF - Gbinije
PF - Kelly
PF - Mason

You've got great size and rebounding - 6'4, 6'2, 6'7, 6'11, 6'10.

You've got great defense - Kelly/Mason are already a strength, Rivers and Gbinije are exceptional lateral athletes, and Curry/Dawk could take the weakest perimeter player.

You've got solid offense - a creator at point, an experienced shooter at SG, two experienced post scorers, and an athletic SF who just needs to not be a liability.

Then you've got offensive and defensive sparkplugs off the bench in Dawkins, Cook and Thornton, along with Miles and Josh for muscle in the post. What's not to love?

[roywhite]

Quinn is certainly the question. I'm not sure he's the answer yet, though. So far this season, including tonight, what he's shown us is he can score. While that's a bit of a pleasant surprise, we have lots of guys who can score. If he's trying to earn time based on his scoring ability, he'll have to get in line behind Austin, Seth, and Andre. If Quinn wants to start or play big minutes, he'll have to do it with defense, and to a lesser extent by being a classic distributing PG. And so far, we haven't seen either of those things from him.

I agree his handle is smooth, but his assist rate isn't great (4.57 assist per 40 minutes) and his decision making needs some work (2 assists vs. 2 turnovers tonight). And, as many have pointed out, his defense isn't there yet.Give the guy time. He doesn't really have to be our savior yet.

Liked what I saw of Quinn last night, including his moverment on defense. Have to temper that with the level of competition, but still an encouraging performance.

[MChambers]

With about ten minutes to go, we had Cook, Dawkins, Gbinije, Hairston, and MP1 on the floor. Not a single starter. And the team looked pretty good. Nice to see. Hairston struggled some, but the rest looked good. Gbinije had some nice plays on both ends. I loved it when he got the defender in the air and took a shot as he got fouled, just to get to the line.

I thought Miles had a great game, even if he didn't score. He was working so hard on defense. He's having a really nice stretch of games here. Maybe this is the moment where's he putting it together.

I agree with those who caution against putting too much weight on Cook's scoring. Almost all of it came when the game was out of hand.

[Saratoga2]

Sure Quinn had a nice game but let's keep in mind he did this vs the 300th rated squad on kenpom and his points came at a time when Duke's surge had already been made. He faced very little defensive pressure on his shots though that side-step
layup was nice.
Mason really took control of this game. Atleast 10 of his boards must have been in traffic.

I think Andre is getting overlooked a bit. He still needs work on the defensive end but on offense he's been great lately. The stroke is going and he's done a great job making the extra pass and looking inside.

That view of Quinn's effort neglects to note the same 300th rated squad had Seth looking bad with turnovers and relatively poor floor leadership while Tyler was just okay. Quinn looked brilliant in the second half. The point of Seth nursing a sprained ankle is probably contributing to the showing, but it is encouraging to see Quinn coming on as a point guard.

[mkline09]

Nice end to the first half and a solid second half appeared to knock off the post-exam rust. Great efforts tonight expecially from Dawkins who really continues to evolve as more than just a spot up shooter. Thought Mason took another step forward showing a dominant streak in the post. Rivers did his usual thing and Quinn Cook played solid. Scoring 14 points in 18 minutes on 6-7 shooting is a big boost to his confidence. Every regular player played double digit minutes which is good, though not necessarily going to be a realistic expectation going forward as the schedule and games get tough.

Overall not a bad performance post exams. Now we all have to wait another 11 days. That is three really long breaks in a month for Duke after a brutal early schedule so I think that should help their legs, maybe not their free throw shooting though.

Anyone think it is too early to start the Wes Miller-Roy Williams line of succession talk?

[wilko]

Anyone think it is too early to start the Wes Miller-Roy Williams line of succession talk?

NOPE!!
Anything that is to the detriment of our rival I am for! Immediately.
Roy is ready to be made into glue.....

[Saratoga2]

Quinn is certainly the question. I'm not sure he's the answer yet, though. So far this season, including tonight, what he's shown us is he can score. While that's a bit of a pleasant surprise, we have lots of guys who can score. If he's trying to earn time based on his scoring ability, he'll have to get in line behind Austin, Seth, and Andre. If Quinn wants to start or play big minutes, he'll have to do it with defense, and to a lesser extent by being a classic distributing PG. And so far, we haven't seen either of those things from him.

I agree his handle is smooth, but his assist rate isn't great (4.57 assist per 40 minutes) and his decision making needs some work (2 assists vs. 2 turnovers tonight). And, as many have pointed out, his defense isn't there yet.

Give the guy time. He doesn't really have to be our savior yet.

One of his turnovvers came when he tried to feed our big bench player to give him points at the end of the game. He dribbled the ball around their team and into the baseline area but our big player couldn't handle the pass. Overall, I thought Quinn's ball security was excellent and he sees the floor very well. As you noted he can score as he wasn't challenged much last night on his shot, which was pure. He is playing much better defense but fans treat it as a forgone conclusion his defense is weak based on his early games. I think his game last night was superior to Seth's and we are really talking about whether the point guard is Tyler or Quinn.

[devildeac]

After the first two timeouts (media and Duke called, IIRC), I thought we would be looking for a new head coach, effective immediately. K was as livid as I have ever seen him and as red as El Sid's old sport coats (thanks to CB&B for that one!). Haven't had a chance to read the local reports yet but thankfully, we settled down, but not until the last several minutes of the first half. Thankfully, we get another 11 days off now (rolls eyes briefly) to work on things some more.

[COYS]

I agree with everyone who says we need to temper expectations for Quinn based on this one game. Nevertheless, he played a nearly flawless second half after a shaky cameo in the first half. And while most of his contributions were on the scoring end, he set up a few really nice plays for his teammates, even if some of the shots didn't go down. My favorite occurred right after Andre hit what ended up being his last three. The very next time down the floor, Quinn got the offense set up in a 1-4 baseline set, had Andre run through a double screen, and hit him in the corner with a crisp pass. Unfortunately, Andre couldn't bury the shot, but it showed nice recognition from Quinn that he set that play up quickly and executed it really well. I am a big fan of Seth and Tyler, but sometimes they pound the ball into the hardwoods for too long while setting up the offense. Actually, Quinn is guilty of this a lot, too. But this particular play was nice and Quinn wasted absolutely no time setting it up.

I also liked a pick n' pop play that Austin and Ryan ran but flubbed at one point in the first half. Kelly screened Austin's man and Austin began driving to the hoop. Ryan's man stepped in and did a good job cutting off Austin's driving lane so Austin threw a bounce pass to Ryan who had shuffled a bit to his left to get open. Unfortunately, Ryan couldn't handle the pass. If he could have handled it, he would have had an open 12-15 foot jump shot, which is right in his wheelhouse. I like this play, too, because it gets Ryan more shots. I feel like both Ryan and Seth, two of the mainstays of our offense in the big wins in Maui and two of our highest rated offensive players, have been a little neglected since the team has returned to the Continental USA (although Ryan had a lot of looks against Washington). A two man pick n' pop game with Austin and Ryan is something I wouldn't mind seeing more of. Plus, if Ryan knocks down a few, the helping big will have to stay at home on Ryan which will give Austin an easier path into the lane, where he is deadly.

[Newton_14]

I agree with everyone who says we need to temper expectations for Quinn based on this one game. Nevertheless, he played a nearly flawless second half after a shaky cameo in the first half. And while most of his contributions were on the scoring end, he set up a few really nice plays for his teammates, even if some of the shots didn't go down. My favorite occurred right after Andre hit what ended up being his last three. The very next time down the floor, Quinn got the offense set up in a 1-4 baseline set, had Andre run through a double screen, and hit him in the corner with a crisp pass. Unfortunately, Andre couldn't bury the shot, but it showed nice recognition from Quinn that he set that play up quickly and executed it really well. I am a big fan of Seth and Tyler, but sometimes they pound the ball into the hardwoods for too long while setting up the offense. Actually, Quinn is guilty of this a lot, too. But this particular play was nice and Quinn wasted absolutely no time setting it up.

I also liked a pick n' pop play that Austin and Ryan ran but flubbed at one point in the first half. Kelly screened Austin's man and Austin began driving to the hoop. Ryan's man stepped in and did a good job cutting off Austin's driving lane so Austin threw a bounce pass to Ryan who had shuffled a bit to his left to get open. Unfortunately, Ryan couldn't handle the pass. If he could have handled it, he would have had an open 12-15 foot jump shot, which is right in his wheelhouse. I like this play, too, because it gets Ryan more shots. I feel like both Ryan and Seth, two of the mainstays of our offense in the big wins in Maui and two of our highest rated offensive players, have been a little neglected since the team has returned to the Continental USA (although Ryan had a lot of looks against Washington). A two man pick n' pop game with Austin and Ryan is something I wouldn't mind seeing more of. Plus, if Ryan knocks down a few, the helping big will have to stay at home on Ryan which will give Austin an easier path into the lane, where he is deadly.

Actually on the Austin/Ryan play, the staff went nuts and yanked Ryan. The problem was, Ryan was supposed to roll to the basket on the play and instead set up for the pick and pop as you noted. Austin led him with a bounce pass expecting Ryan to roll to the basket where he had a clear path. The pass was actually perfect but Ryan had to chase it down due to not rolling, and it allowed the defense to recover. When Ryan got back to the bench, Collins got on him pretty hard, demonstratively telling him to roll to the basket there.

[Kedsy]

You've got solid offense - a creator at point, an experienced shooter at SG, two experienced post scorers, and an athletic SF who just needs to not be a liability.

I'm not yet convinced Michael wouldn't be an offensive liability. He played reasonably well last night, but I still feel he needs a fair amount of work before he even rises to Lance Thomas offensive levels (and I don't mean senior Lance, either). He's getting there, but I'm not sure I'd want him in the starting lineup yet.


Then you've got offensive and defensive sparkplugs off the bench in Dawkins, Cook and Thornton, along with Miles and Josh for muscle in the post. What's not to love?

I might agree with you if there was any chance of Coach K giving decent minutes to 10 guys once the ACC season rolls around. But there isn't. He'll go with 7 or at most 8. Five of those will be Seth, Austin, Mason, Ryan, and Miles. So if Michael gets starter's minutes (or even major rotation minutes), then at least one and quite possibly two of Andre, Quinn, and Tyler will not be seeing the court very much. That's what not to love.


One of his turnovvers came when he tried to feed our big bench player to give him points at the end of the game.

This is not true. According to the official box score, both of Quinn's turnovers happened just after the 16 minute timeout of the 2nd half (less than 5 minutes into the 2nd half). The last turnover we had in the game was at the 3:44 mark of the 2nd half and was by Austin. So, assuming "end of the game" means within the last 3:43, the play you describe did not end up with us being credited with a turnover.


He is playing much better defense but fans treat it as a forgone conclusion his defense is weak based on his early games.

Well, I was not super-impressed with his defense last night. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't so good, either. But whether you agree with that assessment or not, we need to play excellent defense on the opposing PG. Quinn has to be a lot better than "not weak" for his defense to be good enough. Now, has Seth's defense or Tyler's defense been good enough at the point? I'm not sure that they have. But for Quinn to be our primary PG, he has to be a better defender than both Seth and Tyler, and it doesn't have anything to do with his early games but I just don't think Quinn's there yet.

[Kedsy]

But for Quinn to be our primary PG, he has to be a better defender than both Seth and Tyler, and it doesn't have anything to do with his early games but I just don't think Quinn's there yet.

Put another way, Tyler is out there because of his defense and his floor leadership/intangibles. Quinn is clearly a better offensive player than Tyler. If Quinn's defense and floor leadership/intangibles were anywhere close to Tyler's, then Quinn would already be starting. He might get there later in the season, but obviously he's not there yet.

[superdave]

Put another way, Tyler is out there because of his defense and his floor leadership/intangibles. Quinn is clearly a better offensive player than Tyler. If Quinn's defense and floor leadership/intangibles were anywhere close to Tyler's, then Quinn would already be starting. He might get there later in the season, but obviously he's not there yet.

Kedsy - do you just cut an paste all playing time argument rebuttals from previous threads? I hope you do to save time.

Question that's more likely and interesting - Do we experiment with Austin Rivers at the point so we can play our best guys the most minutes in the biggest games?

I think we move in that direction. Austin is a little better ball handler than Seth, and Seth is a better scorer off the ball. If Austin can initiate things on offense then I think we can jump a level as a team. That may be asking a lot of a kid who is a natural scorer and a freshman, but he's got a great attitude, is capable and he could prove his PG skills.

[brumby041]

I expected rust, but this was malaise. Getting outhustled, big guys bringing the ball down and getting stripped, poor passing and a lot of turnovers. After exams, they are likely to come out slow, but this was worse than I expected. It took a great deal of the first half to get going, with the defense really leading the way by slowing them down and then we hit a few threes and were off to the races.



I'm with K on this one...why do we use exams as an excuse?

Everyone understands that the UNCG guys had exams as well, right?

(Not to pick on Saratoga...this excuse is put forth every year...)

-brumby

[roywhite]

Coach K on Quinn and Silent G:

Post game quotes (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205349705)


Our two young kids, Quinn [Cook] and Mike [Gbinije], really had their best minutes. That was so good going into the break.

He also talked about adjustments in the defense which worked well in the second half.
From watching Cook play so well in the second half, including on defense, I'd say he took a step ahead and is earning more minutes.

[jv001]

At this point in the season, there is very little difference in the "on the ball defense" of our perimeter guys. That's Tyler, Seth, Austin, and Quinn. However there are differences in the off the ball defense of these same players. Tyler and Seth are great at disrupting the offense of our opponents. Both come up with steals and get their hands on a lot of passes. From what I see of Quinn, he has the foot speed and lateral quickness to become a good on the ball defender. I like the way Coach K is bringing him along and it looks like he's improving in many areas. Last night after a rather slow first half, he got into the flow and played well offensively and defensively. To me it's apparent he has more natural talent than Tyler, but at this point in time, he doesn't have Tyler's experience and toughness. But I believe it will come. I have confidence in Coach K and the rest of the staff to continue bringing Quinn along. GoDuke!

[BD80]

... Anyone think it is too early to start the Wes Miller-Roy Williams line of succession talk?

I wonder how ol' roy would answer that question?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

"You touch my stuff, and I'll kill you"

[Kedsy]

Kedsy - do you just cut an paste all playing time argument rebuttals from previous threads? I hope you do to save time.

I'm sorry if I sound repetitive. For some reason I can't stop myself.


Question that's more likely and interesting - Do we experiment with Austin Rivers at the point so we can play our best guys the most minutes in the biggest games?

If I were the coach, then yes, I would give serious thought to this idea. I've been waiting for it for some time, and wondering why Coach K hasn't tried this already. He must have a reason. Perhaps he doesn't have confidence in Austin's decision making yet, or is worried about putting too much pressure on him.

[jv001]

If I were the coach, then yes, I would give serious thought to this idea. I've been waiting for it for some time, and wondering why Coach K hasn't tried this already. He must have a reason. Perhaps he doesn't have confidence in Austin's decision making yet, or is worried about putting too much pressure on him.

Count me in on this as well ^. And your two reasons sound convincing to me. I really believe this would take pressure off Seth and allow him to play his natural position. We would then have Quinn and Tyler to spell Austin. Austin and Michael G. could spell Andre. But what do I know? GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

i know this has been brought up before, but Seth had another sub-par game starting alongside Tyler, and TT's stats weren't impressive at all. I know leadership can't be quantified, but being down 24-21 well into the game is quantitative, and indicative of leadership (or lack of).
It seems odd that K accredits better team play with TT at the point, yet nobody seems to play better individually.

[Kedsy]

It seems odd that K accredits better team play with TT at the point, yet nobody seems to play better individually.

I agree that Tyler does not seem to make our offense better, quite the contrary, as we've been discussing in the other thread. So I assume K is talking about better defense and better communication when Tyler is on the floor. Perhaps better toughness. These are all valuable attributes, and once Quinn's defense is up to snuff, I think the ongoing question will be whether Tyler needs to be starting to bring those intangibles or whether he can provide the same benefit in short bursts off the bench.

[jipops]

That view of Quinn's effort neglects to note the same 300th rated squad had Seth looking bad with turnovers and relatively poor floor leadership while Tyler was just okay. Quinn looked brilliant in the second half. The point of Seth nursing a sprained ankle is probably contributing to the showing, but it is encouraging to see Quinn coming on as a point guard.

My point is we might want to temper our excitement about Quinn. I'm not sure what the comfort level is going to be just throwing them out there in an ACC game with a 5 point margin with 12 minutes left. As already noted by Kedsy (I think), if we want to be able to rely on Quinn being a regular contributor this season he is going to have to do more than score, we already have perimeter scorers.

I was honestly equally encouraged by Gbinige's performance who isn't getting as much pub in this thread. He was an excellent matchup in this game because he was equally quick but with far more length than Gboro's perimeter guys - and Gboro's players were very quick. He had a really nice drive to the baseline and defensively he shows a lot of potential. I still have some doubts that will translate to reliable contributions in the ACC season but there is a lot of promise for the future.

Seth hasn't had great scoring output lately but I'm really not worried about it at all. He has already shown to be a very mature player. I would honestly like to see him more vocal more than anything. His slide in scoring may very well have something to do with switching from primary point to off-guard then back again over the course of these early games. Nobody has had more roles to fill than Seth so far and he has probably been the guy best suited to deal with that. Everyone else has pretty much had their role set for them.

[Waynne]

If I were the coach, then yes, I would give serious thought to this idea. I've been waiting for it for some time, and wondering why Coach K hasn't tried this already. He must have a reason. Perhaps he doesn't have confidence in Austin's decision making yet, or is worried about putting too much pressure on him.

I too have wondered why we haven't experimented using Austin at the point. He has the size and seems to have the handle to play PG, and as other posters have pointed out a lot of the offense flows through him already. A lineup of Austin at point and Seth and Andre on the wings, with Tyler, Quinn and Mike as backups, looks potent to me.

But I'm sure Coach K and the rest of the staff have thought a lot more about this than I have, and that there are good reasons why we're not seeing it. Perhaps Austin is too valuable as a scorer to have him play point. Maybe with his fierce scorer's mentality he is not pass oriented enough to play PG, although he has shown the ability to make nice passes. Maybe the staff wants to develop other players at the point. Whatever it is, I'm sure there are good reasons, even if they are not evident to us mere mortals.

[ncexnyc]

I'm just getting around to watching the game, but after reading this thread I wanted to make some quick comments first.

This isn't your ordinary Duke team. There's a lot of talent, we're very deep. Unfortunately this is one of the rare times that we haven't returned any bonafide stars. All our returning players were role players being asked to step-up and to a certain extent were being asked to be the man. As we saw years ago when we asked a very talented Chris Duhon to take over the point from a departed Jason Williams, it didn't go as smoothly as many of us expected. It took a full year for Chris to develop his mastery of the team and he eventually had an outstanding senior year.

Seth was asked to take over the point, a position which isn't his normal one. Could the transition have been smoother if he was surrounded by more established players? It's very possible, however that isn't the make-up of our team and I'd say this experiment is a failure. This isn't a knock on Seth, as I seem to recall Nolan's first crack at running the point didn't go over so well two years ago.

As I said above this isn't your normal Duke team and I believe if several of the players currently battling for playing time can't seperate themselves from their peers, then we'll continue to see Coach K play a deeper rotation than years past.

[jipops]

Put another way, Tyler is out there because of his defense and his floor leadership/intangibles. Quinn is clearly a better offensive player than Tyler. If Quinn's defense and floor leadership/intangibles were anywhere close to Tyler's, then Quinn would already be starting. He might get there later in the season, but obviously he's not there yet.

I totally agree, though Quinn's sole and natural position is at pg and though he exhibits some nice point guard qualities - so far he has not shown he can contribute on the perimeter in the ways this team needs. It is nice that he has shown the ability to score, but isn't that what Austin, Andre, and Seth have already been doing? With Tyler we get the extra intangibles and all the bits of disruption he causes on the defensive end that tends to cause the oppositions offensive sets to break down. This is a nice supplement to the perimeter scoring we can already provide. I kind of think that is what K's logic has been here, or maybe something resembling that. Replace Tyler with Quinn and we may very well lose those intangibles and take away shots from the other 3 perimeter guys.

[MChambers]

I agree that Tyler does not seem to make our offense better, quite the contrary, as we've been discussing in the other thread. So I assume K is talking about better defense and better communication when Tyler is on the floor. Perhaps better toughness. These are all valuable attributes, and once Quinn's defense is up to snuff, I think the ongoing question will be whether Tyler needs to be starting to bring those intangibles or whether he can provide the same benefit in short bursts off the bench.

It does seem to me that Tyler has more of a nose for the ball, and a willingness to go after loose balls that no one else has displayed, except maybe Silent G. It's hard to quantify that, unless you have access to statistics that I've never seen, but I've seen Tyler get balls where I thought Duke had no chance.

I agree that he also excels at team defense and apparently is the best communicator (or leader?) on the team.

I think it's understandable that many fans (I include myself) wonder if Tyler is really the best option, given his lack of offensive production and his good, but not exceptional, on the ball defense. Those are things that are apparent to the to casual fans and to relatively sophisticated fans.

Obviously, the coaching staff sees things we don't see, or he wouldn't be starting. While I am on occasion willing to question coaching decisions, it seems to me that I simply don't know enough to question Tyler's playing time.

[Johnboy]

As noted by Jim Sumner in his excellent game recap:
Duke ran its record to 10-1, keeping intact an NCAA-leading record of double-figure winning seasons that started in 1928-29. This was actually a big deal at one time. Try 1974 or 1982, for example

I was a freshman in 1982 (Dean Smith's first NCAA title) and we won 10 that year and 11 in 1983 (Valvano's title year), and I remember someone saying back then that Duke had the longest streak of 10-win seasons. I wonder who is second? We know who it's not - 8-20 in 2002!

[superdave]

I'm sorry if I sound repetitive. For some reason I can't stop myself.


You are only sounding repetitive because you consistently knock down the repetitive, disproven arguments about playing time that other keep bringing up. We should link to your arguments and make them a sticky post at the top of the EK Board until the season is done.

[ACCBBallFan]

Coach K indicated in post game that both Seth and Ryan are coming back from injuries.

Miles had the best +/- @26, Austin +23, while Mason had the best overall game

DU UNCG Metrics +/- Total Duke Blue Devils

54 (43) 52 11 63 Mason Plumlee, F
59 (36) 40 23 63 Austin Rivers, G
53 (27) 35 26 61 Miles Plumlee, F

62 (48) 39 14 53 Andre Dawkins, G
45 (29) 34 16 50 Ryan Kelly, F

47 (32) 33 15 48 Quinn Cook, G

41 (29) 24 12 36 Michael Gbinije, G-F
32 (27) 26 +5 31 Seth Curry, G

29 (17) 17 12 29 Tyler Thornton, G
24 (21) 19 +3 22 Josh Hairston, F
04 (6) 01 (2) (1) Todd Zafirovski, F
135 TOTALS
27

[sagegrouse]

I too have wondered why we haven't experimented using Austin at the point. He has the size and seems to have the handle to play PG, and as other posters have pointed out a lot of the offense flows through him already. A lineup of Austin at point and Seth and Andre on the wings, with Tyler, Quinn and Mike as backups, looks potent to me.

But I'm sure Coach K and the rest of the staff have thought a lot more about this than I have, and that there are good reasons why we're not seeing it. Perhaps Austin is too valuable as a scorer to have him play point. Maybe with his fierce scorer's mentality he is not pass oriented enough to play PG, although he has shown the ability to make nice passes. Maybe the staff wants to develop other players at the point. Whatever it is, I'm sure there are good reasons, even if they are not evident to us mere mortals.

May I quote Bobby Knight? "What's a point guard?" Austin Rivers will be on the floor much of the time (his 30.1 MPG is tied for #1), and he is no stranger to the ball. The question is, who will be in the game with him? And, if you concede that Mason, Ryan and Austin would normally be on the floor, what other attributes are needed? Offense is always nice, but Duke has a lot of weapons. I would say defense and ballhandling. K and others think that leadership is important, which is awfully hard to evaluate on the TV.

sagegrouse

[Reilly]

May I quote Bobby Knight? "What's a point guard?" ....



A lot about Duke b'ball seems to be getting broken down into finer and finer detail around here. Maybe we can get statistics about how many possessions Duke has per game, and who advances the ball and institgates the offense each time. Is it a long pass fast break ... an under the bucket in-bounds play ... a traditional walk the ball up and advance to the front court (and who does it how many times) .... even so, after the initial pass in the traditional walk up the ball set, everybody's a distributor to the extent any more passes are made ...

[ACCBBallFan]

Here are the various lineups and +/- results for each:

PT Duke UNCG +/-

7.0 11 10 1 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Tyler *3
4.9 08 10 (2) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles *2
2.8 10 04 6 Dre-Ryan-Mason-Quinn-Mike

2.6 9 1 8 Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler
2.4 6 5 1 Austin-Dre-Miles-Quinn-Josh
2.4 6 4 2 Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles *2
2.2 4 0 4 Seth-Austin-Mason-Miles-Tyler *2
2.1 4 6 (2) Dre-Quinn-Josh-Mike-Todd
2.0 3 3 0 Seth-Miles-Quinn-Josh-Mike
1.8 4 0 4 Dre-Miles-Quinn-Josh-Mike
1.7 5 5 0 Dre-Mason-Ryan-Qiuinn-Mike
1.6 5 4 1 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler
1.4 5 2 3 Austin-Ryan-Miles-Quinn-Mike
1.2 3 0 3 Dre-Ryan-Miles-Quinn-Mike
1.1 0 0 0 Seth-Dre-Miles-Tyler-Josh
1.1 2 7 (5) Dre-Mason-Quinn-Josh-Mike
1.0 5 0 5 Austin-Miles-Quinn-Josh-Mike
0.4 0 0 0 Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler
0.4 0 0 0 Seth-Dre-Miles-Quinn-Josh
0.2 0 2 (2) Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler-Mike
40.0 90 63 27

[CDu]

If I were the coach, then yes, I would give serious thought to this idea. I've been waiting for it for some time, and wondering why Coach K hasn't tried this already. He must have a reason. Perhaps he doesn't have confidence in Austin's decision making yet, or is worried about putting too much pressure on him.

I don't know that moving Rivers to PG would dramatically change how the offense runs. Rivers attacks off the dribble already from his guard spot. I'm not sure that having him bring the ball up would change that. He's a score-first guard who does most of his scoring when creating his own shot. I don't see him suddenly turning into a fluid playmaker as a PG. My concern with making Rivers the PG is that it would do one of two things (or both):
- limit fluidity of the offense (Rivers has primarily been an isolation player)
- hinder Rivers' freedom to attack (make him uncertain about when to pass)

So far the offensive approach has been a guard (generally Curry or Thornton) bringing the ball up and passing to the wing. At that point, we have 3 wings, one post, and a forward who sets high screens. If we move Rivers to PG, I see the same approach happening. But does Rivers become less aggressive, thinking he needs to change his role and set up others? Does he end up taking even more shots (since he'll be the one bringing it up and deciding how to initiate the offense)? Or do we simply end up with the same thing but a different guy bringing the ball up?

And as (I believe) you've noted before, I don't think that offensive efficiency has been the problem for this team. We've been pretty good (top 10) offensively so far. It's on defense where we've struggled at times.

[Kedsy]

As noted by Jim Sumner in his excellent game recap:

I was a freshman in 1982 (Dean Smith's first NCAA title) and we won 10 that year and 11 in 1983 (Valvano's title year), and I remember someone saying back then that Duke had the longest streak of 10-win seasons. I wonder who is second? We know who it's not - 8-20 in 2002!

I was a senior in 1982, and I vaguely remember the answer (who's second) being Louisville. But I could easily be wrong about that, and I'm too lazy to look it up.

[Kedsy]

I don't know that moving Rivers to PG would dramatically change how the offense runs. Rivers attacks off the dribble already from his guard spot. I'm not sure that having him bring the ball up would change that. He's a score-first guard who does most of his scoring when creating his own shot. I don't see him suddenly turning into a fluid playmaker as a PG. My concern with making Rivers the PG is that it would do one of two things (or both):
- limit fluidity of the offense (Rivers has primarily been an isolation player)
- hinder Rivers' freedom to attack (make him uncertain about when to pass)

So far the offensive approach has been a guard (generally Curry or Thornton) bringing the ball up and passing to the wing. At that point, we have 3 wings, one post, and a forward who sets high screens. If we move Rivers to PG, I see the same approach happening. But does Rivers become less aggressive, thinking he needs to change his role and set up others? Does he end up taking even more shots (since he'll be the one bringing it up and deciding how to initiate the offense)? Or do we simply end up with the same thing but a different guy bringing the ball up?

And as (I believe) you've noted before, I don't think that offensive efficiency has been the problem for this team. We've been pretty good (top 10) offensively so far. It's on defense where we've struggled at times.

Well, yes, I have mentioned several times that our offensive efficiency is fine, although I might add that it has been declining somewhat in the past few games while Tyler has started at PG. Still, on offense I like the Austin/Seth/Andre combo, and if Austin (or Seth) played PG we could have that on the floor a bit more than we have the past few games.

But the main reason I have been wondering what we'd be like with Austin at PG is on defense. Austin hasn't stayed in front of his man so well thus far, but he's tall (for a guard), quick, and athletic. And very competitive. If Coach K challenged him with the task of shutting down the opposing PG, I'd like to see how Austin would react. If he could embrace the role of lockdown defender (and if he was capable of it, of which I'm not at all sure), the team would be significantly better. And unless the other team's SG is unusually tall or strong, Seth and Tyler might be better suited to guard the wing anyway, where their quick hands would bother a lesser ballhandler more and their tendencies to help off their man wouldn't be leaving the PG alone. Also, if Austin became successful at shutting down the ball, it would allow us to ratchet up the defense in bursts, as Michael improves and earns some time at SF.

Of course, Austin may not be capable of being that kind of defender, in which case we'd have to play someone at PG who is, or at least someone who is more capable than we've shown in some of our early games.

[CDu]

But the main reason I have been wondering what we'd be like with Austin at PG is on defense. Also, if Austin became successful at shutting down the ball, it would allow us to ratchet up the defense in bursts, as Michael improves and earns some time at SF.

Well, I think most of the "Rivers at PG" discussion has been with regard to Rivers playing the PG offensively. There's no reason we couldn't use the same starting lineup (or replace Thornton with Dawkins or Cook) and still have Rivers defend the PG while playing the wing on offense. There's no rule that the PG has to defend the other team's PG.

[jimsumner]

There's no rule that the PG has to defend the other team's PG.

Are you sure? Have you read the NCAA rulebook? War and Peace is a quicker read. It could be buried in there somewhere.

Seriously, Nolan Smith usually guarded the other team's PG in 2010.

Duke has been pretty consistent on Rivers. They want the ball in his hands. A lot. But they want him to attack the glass at every reasonable opportunity. They would like him to respond to help D better by finding the open man. But initiating the offense is not his primary job.

Between Curry, Thornton and Cook, Duke should be able to let Rivers play off the ball.

[superdave]

Are you sure? Have you read the NCAA rulebook? War and Peace is a quicker read. It could be buried in there somewhere.

Seriously, Nolan Smith usually guarded the other team's PG in 2010.

Duke has been pretty consistent on Rivers. They want the ball in his hands. A lot. But they want him to attack the glass at every reasonable opportunity. They would like him to respond to help D better by finding the open man. But initiating the offense is not his primary job.

Between Curry, Thornton and Cook, Duke should be able to let Rivers play off the ball.

I agree that Duke should be able to play Austin off the ball and find a solution at the 1 amongst Curry, Thornton and Cook. But what if each of the three proves to have some deficiency in their game by mid-January? Say Thornton is an offensive liability that allows teams to help off him a lot, Cook just is not ready defensively and Curry cannot score from the PG position and is only an average distributor. That could provide room for some adjustments, among them:

Turn the keys over to Quinn and hope he grows. You wont hear the end of this on these boards, I predict.
Keep Seth running the point with the acknowledgement that Austin will have the ball in his hands. Essentially, keep the current four-man backcourt rotation.
Switch Austin and Seth and make it a total switch.


I personally think Seth is trying to figure out how he relates on the court to everyone and he's going to get a lot better once that settles out for him. As long as Austin has the ball a lot, it lessens the need to lean on Seth's natural point guard abilities. But as long as we have defensive deficiencies, Tyler is going to play significant minutes at the expense of our our best backcourt/wing lineup (Dawkins, Curry,Rivers).

Ahhhhhghh. Tradeoffs. I really want this to start to get fixed.

[Saratoga2]

I agree that Duke should be able to play Austin off the ball and find a solution at the 1 amongst Curry, Thornton and Cook. But what if each of the three proves to have some deficiency in their game by mid-January? Say Thornton is an offensive liability that allows teams to help off him a lot, Cook just is not ready defensively and Curry cannot score from the PG position and is only an average distributor. That could provide room for some adjustments, among them:

Turn the keys over to Quinn and hope he grows. You wont hear the end of this on these boards, I predict.
Keep Seth running the point with the acknowledgement that Austin will have the ball in his hands. Essentially, keep the current four-man backcourt rotation.
Switch Austin and Seth and make it a total switch.


I personally think Seth is trying to figure out how he relates on the court to everyone and he's going to get a lot better once that settles out for him. As long as Austin has the ball a lot, it lessens the need to lean on Seth's natural point guard abilities. But as long as we have defensive deficiencies, Tyler is going to play significant minutes at the expense of our our best backcourt/wing lineup (Dawkins, Curry,Rivers).

Ahhhhhghh. Tradeoffs. I really want this to start to get fixed.

Based on what has been happening recently, Seth hasn't shown natural PG abilities and instead looks more like a shooting guard trying to handle the PG responsibilities. Coach K has moved Tyler into the role since he wanted more leadership and perceives he provides improved defense. Quinn seems to have the handle and court vision along with quickness to handle the role he excelled at in high school. My guess is that his defense, which has improved as the season has progressed will continue to improve. We are fortunate to have three guards who can play point. None is a perfect fit at this time, but each will offer advantages and one may show enough to be the starter going into the ACC season. I am in the camp that believes that Austin should be free of the PG duty.

[-jk]

...

Ahhhhhghh. Tradeoffs. I really want this to start to get fixed.

This is why NBA fans can excoriate management.

In college hoops, though, you can't trade the bench for Chris Paul.

It's both the best and worst of the ncaa. It's all about the journey, not attaining perfection.

-jk

[Kedsy]

Between Curry, Thornton and Cook, Duke should be able to let Rivers play off the ball.


Well, I think most of the "Rivers at PG" discussion has been with regard to Rivers playing the PG offensively. There's no reason we couldn't use the same starting lineup (or replace Thornton with Dawkins or Cook) and still have Rivers defend the PG while playing the wing on offense. There's no rule that the PG has to defend the other team's PG.

Of course Austin could defend the opposing PG and play wing on offense. And, yes, as Jim points out, we have sufficient answers at the point so that Austin doesn't need to play PG. My theory is actually the inverse of what you're saying. if Austin can effectively shut down the opposing PG, there is no need for Tyler to start. As I believe an Austin/Seth/Andre perimeter is much more effective on offense than a Tyler/Seth/Austin perimeter, I wouldn't mind seeing if Austin can successfully defend opposing PGs. If he can, then the question becomes whether our O would be more effective with Seth or Austin initiating the offense. At the beginning of the season, I understand why the coaching staff went with Seth in that role -- he had superior experience and maturity. At this stage, it would be interesting to see whether and how Austin would embrace the role.

Either way, I think we're a stronger team with Tyler and Quinn coming off the bench than with Andre coming off the bench, although certainly Andre has looked very good so far in his sixth man role.

[CDu]

My theory is actually the inverse of what you're saying. if Austin can effectively shut down the opposing PG, there is no need for Tyler to start.

Ah I see. Fair enough.


Either way, I think we're a stronger team with Tyler and Quinn coming off the bench than with Andre coming off the bench, although certainly Andre has looked very good so far in his sixth man role.

I'd say at the moment that the 6th man role is suiting Dawkins quite well. It's hard to say whether we're any better or worse off with Dawkins starting or as 6th man. We've had mostly solid games and one real stinker. If you throw out the one stinker, I don't think the offensive efficiency as a team has suffered terribly with either approach, nor has the defensive efficiency altered a lot.

Honestly, I'm not sure whether it matters who is guarding the PG. None of our guys including Rivers have shown to be consistently effective in stopping dribble penetration (and some of that blame goes to hesitant hedges by the bigs). It's possible that Rivers could do better at it than Curry.

[Newton_14]

I agree that Duke should be able to play Austin off the ball and find a solution at the 1 amongst Curry, Thornton and Cook. But what if each of the three proves to have some deficiency in their game by mid-January? Say Thornton is an offensive liability that allows teams to help off him a lot, Cook just is not ready defensively and Curry cannot score from the PG position and is only an average distributor. That could provide room for some adjustments, among them:

Turn the keys over to Quinn and hope he grows. You wont hear the end of this on these boards, I predict.
Keep Seth running the point with the acknowledgement that Austin will have the ball in his hands. Essentially, keep the current four-man backcourt rotation.
Switch Austin and Seth and make it a total switch.


I personally think Seth is trying to figure out how he relates on the court to everyone and he's going to get a lot better once that settles out for him. As long as Austin has the ball a lot, it lessens the need to lean on Seth's natural point guard abilities. But as long as we have defensive deficiencies, Tyler is going to play significant minutes at the expense of our our best backcourt/wing lineup (Dawkins, Curry,Rivers).

Ahhhhhghh. Tradeoffs. I really want this to start to get fixed.

The thing is though, during the tough 8 game stretch where Duke went 7-1 with the only loss being the blowout at OSU, Seth was great at scoring and did ok distributing. He was shooting lights out from 3 and from 2. His drop in points coincided with being moved where many were screaming for him to be moved to (off the ball to SG). He actually scored the ball much better playing the point. I know there is a theory that having Tyler at the point hurts Seth somehow. I won't dismiss that theory, but I also will not buy into the theory until someone can actually show clear evidence that is the case. (Not that that is fair, as not sure how one could even show that).

I still think the OSU game caused an over reaction to a certain degree. The team looked really good in those first 7 games with Seth running the point and Andre and Austin on the wings. K does not like getting embarrassed in big games though, so he went to work trying to fix the perimeter defense. Offensively though, we are still better with the Seth/Austin/Andre perimeter imo. So it is a definite trade off. After 3 games with the new look, my assessment is that the change helped Andre, as he has been better on both ends for some reason in a 6th man role. It has hurt Seth on the offensive end, and there has been possibly a slight improvement in the perimeter defense on the whole.

So most definitely there has been trade offs.

A few questions to consider. 1. Was the perimeter defense in the first 8 games as bad as it appeared to be in the one OSU game, meaning it was really that bad in the first 7 games too, but the other teams just couldn't exploit it to the extent OSU did? and 2. If it was that bad, did the change in the starting lineup improve the perimeter defense to where it was better in the 3 games since OSU than in the first 8 games? and 3. Was the offense in the 3 games post OSU better or worse than in the first 8 games?

[ncexnyc]

I finally got around to watching last night’s game and here are my observations:

Mason: The big man played another solid game. It’s nice to see him get his points game in and game out no matter who the competition is. He really did a super job of taking over the backboards in the 2nd half last night. A really nice outlet pass to Quinn for his highlight reel basket. Aside from his terrible free throw shooting, the other area I’d like to see him improve on is moving towards the pass. A couple of times last night he didn’t move to meet the pass and the defender was able to come around him for a steal.

Miles: Played another solid game. His board work was exceptional. Unfortunately he lost a couple of rebounds from behind. The first time didn’t hurt, as the defender knocked the ball off his own player, but the second time did result in a turnover.

Ryan: Another solid performance.

Josh: It’s easy to see why people love this kid. He brings the energy every game a lot like Lance did. Two sequences define his game. The first was late in the 2nd half where he had several consecutive put back attempts on the same play before being fouled. The other was a missed shot from the corner where he ran diagonally across the length of the court and broke-up a long pass.

Silent G: Nice to see him get some solid minutes yesterday. One nice baseline basket that I recall and he does seem very fluid with the ball in his hands.

Andre: He looks a lot more comfortable as our sixth man. Got burned on a backdoor play and he was badly beaten on a long pass, but as long as he’s bringing it on the offensive end these minor flaws can be overlooked.

Austin: Why does this young man always look so angry? Ok, I get that he’s super competitive, but like the Joker said, “Why so serious?” He’s got a nice inside/outside game, which makes him near impossible to guard.

Seth: Wish we could find a way to get him back on track. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that’s going to happen until we figure out our PG situation.

Tyler: Not our most gifted guard, but Coach K sees something in him many on this board can’t or won’t acknowledge. His first turnover was really Mason’s fault for not moving to the ball and that blocking foul he picked-up early on I’ve got no beef with. It takes a lot of guts to be the only guy back on defense and put your body in front of someone bearing down on you at full speed.

Quinn: Well this game gave Quinn’s supporters a ton of ammo to support their case. He’s definitely not shy about pulling the trigger and he really seemed to get after it on the defensive end. Of course the big question is can he do it night after night?

Not sure we can take much away from this game other than the fact that we are still a team searching for a set line-up with clearly defined roles for each player. I’m getting quite a good laugh reading one of Seth’s biggest supporters suddenly buying into the suggestion that we try Austin as our PG. I honestly don’t know who our best PG is or what our optimum starting line-up is, but I do believe that this year Coach K will play his bench more than any other year, as we’ve got a lot of talent available to put out on the court on any given day.

[loldevilz]

I agree that Duke should be able to play Austin off the ball and find a solution at the 1 amongst Curry, Thornton and Cook. But what if each of the three proves to have some deficiency in their game by mid-January? Say Thornton is an offensive liability that allows teams to help off him a lot, Cook just is not ready defensively and Curry cannot score from the PG position and is only an average distributor. That could provide room for some adjustments, among them:

Turn the keys over to Quinn and hope he grows. You wont hear the end of this on these boards, I predict.
Keep Seth running the point with the acknowledgement that Austin will have the ball in his hands. Essentially, keep the current four-man backcourt rotation.
Switch Austin and Seth and make it a total switch.


I personally think Seth is trying to figure out how he relates on the court to everyone and he's going to get a lot better once that settles out for him. As long as Austin has the ball a lot, it lessens the need to lean on Seth's natural point guard abilities. But as long as we have defensive deficiencies, Tyler is going to play significant minutes at the expense of our our best backcourt/wing lineup (Dawkins, Curry,Rivers).

Ahhhhhghh. Tradeoffs. I really want this to start to get fixed.

I really disagree with the notion that Curry can't score as a point guard. The stats show that Curry has only scored from the PG position. Since making Thornton the point guard Curry has only been in double figures once. Not only that but before at PG he was both our top scorer and our most efficient scorer. Don't forget that the year before with Nolan Smith they shared the point guard position and Curry was one of our best players. I for one do not think its worth putting in a pure point guard if that is going to keep the ball our of Currys hands.

Also, I don't think that Duke really needs a pure point guard. Austin doesn't need someone to create a shot for him and neither does Mason. Since Curry is best with the ball in his hands let him run the show.

[Waynne]

May I quote Bobby Knight? "What's a point guard?" Austin Rivers will be on the floor much of the time (his 30.1 MPG is tied for #1), and he is no stranger to the ball. The question is, who will be in the game with him? And, if you concede that Mason, Ryan and Austin would normally be on the floor, what other attributes are needed? Offense is always nice, but Duke has a lot of weapons. I would say defense and ballhandling. K and others think that leadership is important, which is awfully hard to evaluate on the TV.

sagegrouse

But the estimable Mr. Knight also defined a PG as the player who usually initiates the offense, either by passing to another player or by taking the shot himself. Playing Austin at point might get Seth back into the flow of the offense and thereby improve the team offensively. Others have noted Seth's production is down when Tyler plays big minutes. I have no idea why that is, and it may well have nothing to do with Tyler, but if Tyler and Seth are on the floor togather and neither is scoring much, then we at best have only three offensive threats on the floor. I'd rather have four or five.

Austin also may be able to quard opposing PGs better than Seth or Tyler, because he is bigger and appears to have quicker feet than either, although Seth has very quick hands. If Austin can adequately guard opposing PGs there may be less justification for Tyler to start. Obviously Coach K places great value on Tyler's defensive intensity, toughness, and leadership, and that's why he's starting. But he could bring the same valuable qualities coming off the bench.

All of this is of course just uninformed speculation on my part. Playing Austin at point probably has been tried in practice and may not have worked out for various reasons, perhaps because it places too much of a burden on a young player who is developing his game in a very good way. Austin, Seth, and Andre make up our best perimeter lineup IMO, so that's why I'm playing "Devil's advocate". Apparently this is all moot anyway, because as Jim Sumner points out, the coaches have other plans for Austin.

[UrinalCake]

1. Was the perimeter defense in the first 8 games as bad as it appeared to be in the one OSU game, meaning it was really that bad in the first 7 games too, but the other teams just couldn't exploit it to the extent OSU did?

I think it's the latter. Even though we won our first 7 games, our perimeter defense was poor. Pretty much every team we played had a guard that could get into the lane fairly easily, but our interior defense and prolific offense would make up for it. And the Kansas win, which is our biggest win of the year, is looking less impressive now that they lost again. So I think the decision to shake up the starting lineup was about more than just the OSU game.

As for whether we're a better team overall with Quin or Tyler starting in place of Andre, that's really hard to say since a.) it takes time to adjust to a new system and b.) our quality of competition has dropped significantly.

[jimsumner]

RE: Seth Curry.

It should be noted that he had a pretty bad sprained ankle and barely practiced last week.

[Newton_14]

RE: Seth Curry.

It should be noted that he had a pretty bad sprained ankle and barely practiced last week.

Agree 100% Jim. I mentioned that in one of the other threads but don't believe it was mentioned in this thread. I felt that definitely impacted his performance last night. I believe Seth will get back on track soon. Too much talent there.

[Greg_Newton]

Are you sure? Have you read the NCAA rulebook? War and Peace is a quicker read. It could be buried in there somewhere.

Seriously, Nolan Smith usually guarded the other team's PG in 2010.

Duke has been pretty consistent on Rivers. They want the ball in his hands. A lot. But they want him to attack the glass at every reasonable opportunity. They would like him to respond to help D better by finding the open man. But initiating the offense is not his primary job.

Between Curry, Thornton and Cook, Duke should be able to let Rivers play off the ball.

Why do they want him to though?

I mean, it's in his best interests, NBA-wise, to learn some PG skills and mentality. And him adopting the lead guard role would also give us a dynamic engine that our offense would run through (even if we have some growing pains in the beginning).

It seems like the staff wants to make sure they don't "hold him back" or restrain his attacking mentality at all. I would personally rather see them try to teach him how to harness his skills and become less one-dimensional; he can break down the defense at will, sure, but right now, it's only 5-10 times a game where he sees a clear lane and attacks the rim. If he could get comfortable with his second dribble - i.e. able to reassess the situation and whether he should continue to attack, pull up or pass - he could consistently break down the defense as part of our offense, which could make us an entirely different, elite team. There's some risk, but also extremely high reward.

Plus, it gives you more good lineup options. The other two guards would only need to be complimentary players that can do their jobs - whether that be defend, hit the 3, rebound, create on offense - which, alongside a 6'4, penetrating, 3-point shooting PG that is an elite perimeter defender, would allow us to explore several different looks. I like that better than forcing another PG into the starting lineup (arguably on positional necessity, rather than virtue).

Plus, right now, that's really what our other guards are, IMO; solid players, often great at one or two things, but we don't have any backcourt stars this year that need the ball in their hands more than Rivers. He's a quick learner... give him the keys.

[superdave]

I really disagree with the notion that Curry can't score as a point guard. The stats show that Curry has only scored from the PG position. Since making Thornton the point guard Curry has only been in double figures once. Not only that but before at PG he was both our top scorer and our most efficient scorer. Don't forget that the year before with Nolan Smith they shared the point guard position and Curry was one of our best players. I for one do not think its worth putting in a pure point guard if that is going to keep the ball our of Currys hands.

Also, I don't think that Duke really needs a pure point guard. Austin doesn't need someone to create a shot for him and neither does Mason. Since Curry is best with the ball in his hands let him run the show.

Oh I agree that Seth can and should be our point guard and can score from that position. I was just throwing arguments out there - namely, why did Thornton start which took Curry off the ball? Was it the notion that Seth should be the 2 because running the offense was hurting his scoring?

I know a shorter bench is coming. We all know that. I also firmly believe we are at our best offensively with Seth, Austin and Andre on the court. But that is not our best defensive lineup.

My prescription would be to do what we did vs. Colorado State and pick up full court a lot more in order to use some of our depths to get teams out of their rhythm and game plan, then go to Seth at the point when we are in more half court sets. After CSU, I thought we'd see more full court pressure and more pushing of the ball, but I did not see it vs. Washington or Greensboro. Was it a one game thing or what?

[CDu]

Oh I agree that Seth can and should be our point guard and can score from that position. I was just throwing arguments out there - namely, why did Thornton start which took Curry off the ball? Was it the notion that Seth should be the 2 because running the offense was hurting his scoring?

Well, Thornton starting hasn't really moved Curry off the ball. Curry still brings the ball up quite a bit (Thornton does as well), and once we get in the half court set, Curry and Rivers still initiate the offense the vast majority of the time. Thornton's role on offense has been VERY minimal. On the times he does bring the ball up court, he usually passes to Curry or Rivers and then moves to a spot on the 3pt line.


My prescription would be to do what we did vs. Colorado State and pick up full court a lot more in order to use some of our depths to get teams out of their rhythm and game plan, then go to Seth at the point when we are in more half court sets. After CSU, I thought we'd see more full court pressure and more pushing of the ball, but I did not see it vs. Washington or Greensboro. Was it a one game thing or what?

I imagine there's still quite a lot of figuring out to do for the team (players and staff). I don't think we've settled on a lineup yet, and I don't think we've fully defined our offensive/defensive identity yet (except that we'll play man-to-man defense, of course!). So we may yet see that approach return.