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throatybeard
12-11-2011, 12:40 AM
I always wondered what became of Neill McGeachy, Duke MBB's head coach during the 1974 season, a 10-17 campaign you can read about in Brill 1986. McGeachy was saddled with the thankless task of following Bucky Waters, who had presided over a period of relative decline after Vic Bubas. (Not to dis Waters). That team may have struggled, but it did record the 1000th win in program history. It's also the team that lost the 8pt/17s game at Carolina. What Carolina fans never mention is that they had no damn business whatsoever trailing that Duke team by 8 points late.

McGeachy is the AD at his alma mater, Lenior-Rhyne. The math seems to indicate he's in his late 60s.

http://www.lr.edu/administration/neill-mcgeachy

I think we're all aware Bucky's still around, but Bubas (1927-) and Bill Foster (1930-) are also still kicking, despite Foster's heart attack in the 1980s.

uh_no
12-11-2011, 12:48 AM
Not really relevent, but Bucky was by far my most favorite guy in press row to stand behind in the student section....(much more fun than "suspenders guy" at least......)

PallasAthena
12-11-2011, 12:53 AM
I always wondered what became of Neill McGeachy, Duke MBB's head coach during the 1974 season, a 10-17 campaign you can read about in Brill 1986. McGeachy was saddled with the thankless task of following Bucky Waters, who had presided over a period of relative decline after Vic Bubas. (Not to dis Waters). That team may have struggled, but it did record the 1000th win in program history. It's also the team that lost the 8pt/17s game at Carolina. What Carolina fans never mention is that they had no damn business whatsoever trailing that Duke team by 8 points late.

McGeachy is the AD at his alma mater, Lenior-Rhyne. The math seems to indicate he's in his late 60s.

http://www.lr.edu/administration/neill-mcgeachy

I think we're all aware Bucky's still around, but Bubas (1927-) and Bill Foster (1930-) are also still kicking, despite Foster's heart attack in the 1980s.

McGeachy was the coach the first year we bought season tickets (the very same seats we still occupy!). It was pretty easy to get tickets; Dr. Pallas Athena was a resident at Duke Hospital, so we were able to buy the seats two-for-one. That's right, folks, $80 for TWO season tickets in Cameron Indoor Stadium. Been there ever since. Even though people sitting around us said things were on the decline, we loved the games and the atmosphere.

Bob Green
12-11-2011, 01:31 AM
Not in Durham! End of discussion. Seriously, 8 points in 17 seconds. I usually get over things in a hurry, but almost 38 years later, I'm not over the 8 points in 17 seconds debacle.

throatybeard
12-11-2011, 02:09 AM
McGeachy was the coach the first year we bought season tickets (the very same seats we still occupy!). It was pretty easy to get tickets; Dr. Pallas Athena was a resident at Duke Hospital, so we were able to buy the seats two-for-one. That's right, folks, $80 for TWO season tickets in Cameron Indoor Stadium. Been there ever since. Even though people sitting around us said things were on the decline, we loved the games and the atmosphere.

Buy low, sell...well maybe never. Or high.

JStuart
12-11-2011, 08:10 AM
...during all the Coach K celebration last month, I was impressed that no mention was made of Pete Gaudet. No, I'm not trolling here, just curious why he wasn't at least invited to join in the festivities, since he was a large part of the back-to-back years, and -if K's original Army team was brought in for the Davidson game- I wonder whether there is a bitter back story or just what that left him out of the list of celebrants. I don't count myself as a super-duper insider here, just a local fan since at least 1957, and got to spend some time with Gaudet at a local Health Fair function.
PS, if this is destined to cause great wailing and gnashing of teeth, please ignore, like most of my usual comments...carry on.


I always wondered what became of Neill McGeachy, Duke MBB's head coach during the 1974 season, a 10-17 campaign you can read about in Brill 1986. McGeachy was saddled with the thankless task of following Bucky Waters, who had presided over a period of relative decline after Vic Bubas. (Not to dis Waters). That team may have struggled, but it did record the 1000th win in program history. It's also the team that lost the 8pt/17s game at Carolina. What Carolina fans never mention is that they had no damn business whatsoever trailing that Duke team by 8 points late.

McGeachy is the AD at his alma mater, Lenior-Rhyne. The math seems to indicate he's in his late 60s.

http://www.lr.edu/administration/neill-mcgeachy

I think we're all aware Bucky's still around, but Bubas (1927-) and Bill Foster (1930-) are also still kicking, despite Foster's heart attack in the 1980s.

Reilly
12-11-2011, 09:08 AM
- McG of course hired Fred Goldsmith a few years ago to coach football at L-R

- the best person to stand behind on press row was Lou Bello, former ACC ref ... Lou supposedly wore knee pads under his pants when calling a game so he could theatrically slide when making a call (no idea if this is actually true) ... Lou was a character coming to take his seat at press row ... he'd usually have popcorn and turn and offer it to us students, along w/ funny patter ...

- wondered about Gaudet myself during the 903 celebrations ... wasn't he doing a Paulus-esqe Ohio State video coord. job w/ the OSU women's team at one time?

throatybeard
12-11-2011, 11:20 AM
- the best person to stand behind on press row was Lou Bello, former ACC ref ... Lou supposedly wore knee pads under his pants when calling a game so he could theatrically slide when making a call (no idea if this is actually true) ... Lou was a character coming to take his seat at press row ... he'd usually have popcorn and turn and offer it to us students, along w/ funny patter ...

Funny you mention Lou Bello. I was just thinking about him the other day. He doesn't have a wiki article, but I found a reprint of his N&O obituary.

http://www.thedeadballera.com/Obits/MinorLeaguers/Obits_B/Bello.Lou.Obit001.html

I was thinking on him because I remembered that he had come to visit my class when I was in Duke Young Writers' Camp. I don't remember which class and I don't remember what the assignment was, although it seems plausible that we were supposed to write a profile of him. So somewhere in all the crap in my parents' house, there are two different DYWC binders, one autographed by Lou Bello and the other by Alex Haley. This was in 1988 or 1989, probably 1989. Both died just a coupla three years later.

chrishoke
12-11-2011, 11:59 AM
Not in Durham! End of discussion. Seriously, 8 points in 17 seconds. I usually get over things in a hurry, but almost 38 years later, I'm not over the 8 points in 17 seconds debacle.

Many people forget that the same year, in Cameron, Duke had the ball out of bounds with the score tied with UNC, the in-bounds pass was stolen by Bobby Jones and he made the game winning lay up just before time expired. Two absolutely gut wrenching losses in Neil's only 2 games against the heels. I was an undergrad at UNC at the time, a big Duke fan, and attended both games. You can imagine the grief I took from my fellow heel students. :mad:

arnie
12-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Many people forget that the same year, in Cameron, Duke had the ball out of bounds with the score tied with UNC, the in-bounds pass was stolen by Bobby Jones and he made the game winning lay up just before time expired. Two absolutely gut wrenching losses in Neil's only 2 games against the heels. I was an undergrad at UNC at the time, a big Duke fan, and attended both games. You can imagine the grief I took from my fellow heel students. :mad:

Actually, our Paul Fox seemed to passthe ball in stride to a streaking Bobby Jones. Those were two very difficult Saturday nights (both were afternoon games if I recall).

Olympic Fan
12-11-2011, 12:38 PM
Neil McGeachy got the Duke job because of the timing of Bucky Waters resignation.

Bucky, who had signed a five year contract in the spring of 1969, had coached four years, going 17-9 (8-6 ACC), 20-10 (9-5 ACC), 14-12 (6-6 ACC) and 12-14 (4-8 ACC). That last season was Duke's first looking record in 34 years. His tenure was marked by the exodus of talented players -- from Jeff Dawson to Jim Fitzsimmons to Richie O'Connor to Sam May to Ron Righter to Dave Elmer (a big man who outplayed Tommy Burleson in a freshman game in Cameron). Worse, Duke spent the 1973 season on probation for two minor violations during the recruitment of David Thompson. Bucky didn't do them and knew nothing about them, but the culprit was a Shelby businessman who had in the past helped Duke football recruiting, He was not a Duke alum, but WAS working for Duke (at the suggestion of AD Carl James, a former football recruiter for the Devils).

Anyway, in the fall of 1973, Bucky went to James and asked about a contract extention. When James refused to commit to such an extention, Bucky quit -- in September! Caught without a coach, James called Adolph Rupp, who had been forced into retirement at Kentucky, and tried to bring hin in for one year as an interim coach. Rupp first accepted, but changed his mind after his estate manager died unexpectedly.

In desperation, James turned to McGeachy, a recently added assistant under Waters, and gave him the job. At the press conference where he was introduced, James made it a point that McGeachy was the new head coach ... not the interim coach. At the same time, he admitted that he would be undertaking a nationwide coach to find the best coach possible for Duk basketball.

McGeachy inherited a veteran -- albiet not all that talented -- team. Junior Bob Fleischer was a burly 6-8 bruiser. Chris Redding was a slender 6-8 scorer. Kevin Billerman was a slow, but very heady point guard. Junior Willie Hodge was a slender 6-9 junior forward, a very athletic kid from Texas, and one of just two black players on the team. Then other was freshman Edgar Burch, a potentially decent 6-2 wing guard guard from Detroit. Interesting that 1973-74 was the first year of freshman eligibility and Burch was the first freshman to play at Duke since Joe Belmont and Ronnie Mayer during the Korean War. He would flunk out after one season.

It wasn't a terrible Duke team -- the problem is that the top of the ACC was so darn good that season. NC State, of course, finished No. 1 and won the national title. Maryland finished No. 3 nationally and lost one game outside the league -- a heartbreaker at UCLA in the season opener. North Carolina was No. 5 in the AP poll going into the ACC Tournament. The amazing thing about those three teams is that they only lost to each other all year ... other that two losses to UCLA (one each by State and Maryland) and an NIT loss by UNC to Purdue (in a made-for-TV matchup, the NIT paired its two best teams ... both in the top 10 ... in the first round).

McGeachy's Blue Devils were blasted in two games with NC State and in two of three games with Maryland. But they did take Maryland to the wire in Cameron (losing 64-61) and in both games with UNC (losing in Cameron on Bobby Jones; steal and layup at the buzzer and in Chapel Hill on the Walter Davis miracle).

In the end, Duke finished 10-16 (2-10 ACC). The team's best win was probably a January victory at Princeton. After it all ended with an 85-66 loss to Maryland in the first round of the ACC Tournament in Greensboro, the players staged a sort of mini-revolt in the locker room afterwards, demanding that the school re-sign McGeachy and give him a chance. Their plea fell on deaf ears as James had already zeroed in on Utah coach Bill Foster who had his team in the NIT finals (and in that era, before NCAA expansion, that was a fairly big deal).

I've always wondered whether ot not McGeachy might have gotten another contract if he had beaten UNC at least once? Probably not ...

hq2
12-11-2011, 12:40 PM
Not in Durham! End of discussion. Seriously, 8 points in 17 seconds. I usually get over things in a hurry, but almost 38 years later, I'm not over the 8 points in 17 seconds debacle.

Yeah, that was a tough one. Heard it on the radio. Second worst loss of all time, after Louisville '86. Thought for sure we had that rascally Deano beat.
Didn't finally beat 'em in Carmicheal until '85. McGheachy sure had a hard year. In reality, Carolina had a much more talented team. The games should
never have been close. It was a tribute to the toughness of those Duke teams that they fought it out down to the wire and almost won.

Duke71
12-11-2011, 01:07 PM
Not in Durham! End of discussion. Seriously, 8 points in 17 seconds. I usually get over things in a hurry, but almost 38 years later, I'm not over the 8 points in 17 seconds debacle.

Bob:

I share your pain about those 17 seconds. I've never forgotten them either. Never will. Forgiving and moving on is another matter (tho' it's the closest I've personally come to experiencing PTSD)

There's usually more to any story than first meets the eye. I doubt the full story will ever be told and perhaps it's best that it isn't. (Olympicfan just posted on this thread after I began writing this and has gone a long, long way in putting forth the key elements of the odd backstory).

As for Neill McG. himself, I prefer to think of him as a "bridge loan" that was necessary in moving out of Bucky Waters' house and on into Bill Foster's "house". This vital move reminded us that there was still a real chance of returning Duke BBall to national relevance. Bucky was well liked by those who didn't have to run up and down the floor for him. The pain that so many of the players felt during the Bucky years,however, exceeded the pain felt by all of us during the 17 second brainf*rt that Neill subsequently had as the team's coach and ultimate decision-maker that fateful day. Giving instructions to the man/men throwing the ball in-bounds to haul it to the other end of the court each time would have made that miraculous comeback in 17 seconds impossible in the era that had no 3-pointers.

The exodus of players during that era from Duke to other schools was pretty much unprecedented by the orderly expectations of the Duke program in those days. This was not the "one and done era" that offered players the smorgasbord of options that they exuberantly exercise today.

House buyers often don't like admitting to or discussing "bridge loans" because it makes them look unprepared for their chosen transition. Indeed, so it was with the Neill McG. "bridge loan". Once the brief purpose was served, things moved on and the need for the loan was little discussed.

However, all this ultimately led us to where we are today looking proudly down at Coach K Court in the re-habbed house we can all be very much proud of. For the most part, that pride drives us here to share thoughts and experiences on DBR.

Neill was actually much liked by his players (Olympic fan did a very accurate portrayal of the facts on this thread) - unlike with Neill's predecessor, who was loved by almost every non-player he ever met, but not so much so by many of the players themselves - and I'm glad to learn that Neill has carved out a good niche for himself and fathered kids that most parents would be glad to claim.

Throatybeard, thanks for posting the link. Brings back unpleasant memories, but I take comfort that a "bridge loan" has little to do with real reasons that we moved out of our old house into our new one. It was simply necessary to make that move possible....

CameronBornAndBred
12-11-2011, 01:20 PM
Neil McGeachy got the Duke job because of the timing of Bucky Waters resignation.

Bucky, who had signed a five year contract in the spring of 1969, had coached four years, going 17-9 (8-6 ACC), 20-10 (9-5 ACC), 14-12 (6-6 ACC) and 12-14 (4-8 ACC). That last season was Duke's first looking record in 34 years. His tenure was marked by the exodus of talented players -- from Jeff Dawson to Jim Fitzsimmons to Richie O'Connor to Sam May to Ron Righter to Dave Elmer (a big man who outplayed Tommy Burleson in a freshman game in Cameron). Worse, Duke spent the 1973 season on probation for two minor violations during the recruitment of David Thompson. Bucky didn't do them and knew nothing about them, but the culprit was a Shelby businessman who had in the past helped Duke football recruiting, He was not a Duke alum, but WAS working for Duke (at the suggestion of AD Carl James, a former football recruiter for the Devils).

Anyway, in the fall of 1973, Bucky went to James and asked about a contract extention. When James refused to commit to such an extention, Bucky quit -- in September! Caught without a coach, James called Adolph Rupp, who had been forced into retirement at Kentucky, and tried to bring hin in for one year as an interim coach. Rupp first accepted, but changed his mind after his estate manager died unexpectedly.

In desperation, James turned to McGeachy, a recently added assistant under Waters, and gave him the job. At the press conference where he was introduced, James made it a point that McGeachy was the new head coach ... not the interim coach. At the same time, he admitted that he would be undertaking a nationwide coach to find the best coach possible for Duk basketball.

McGeachy inherited a veteran -- albiet not all that talented -- team. Junior Bob Fleischer was a burly 6-8 bruiser. Chris Redding was a slender 6-8 scorer. Kevin Billerman was a slow, but very heady point guard. Junior Willie Hodge was a slender 6-9 junior forward, a very athletic kid from Texas, and one of just two black players on the team. Then other was freshman Edgar Burch, a potentially decent 6-2 wing guard guard from Detroit. Interesting that 1973-74 was the first year of freshman eligibility and Burch was the first freshman to play at Duke since Joe Belmont and Ronnie Mayer during the Korean War. He would flunk out after one season.

It wasn't a terrible Duke team -- the problem is that the top of the ACC was so darn good that season. NC State, of course, finished No. 1 and won the national title. Maryland finished No. 3 nationally and lost one game outside the league -- a heartbreaker at UCLA in the season opener. North Carolina was No. 5 in the AP poll going into the ACC Tournament. The amazing thing about those three teams is that they only lost to each other all year ... other that two losses to UCLA (one each by State and Maryland) and an NIT loss by UNC to Purdue (in a made-for-TV matchup, the NIT paired its two best teams ... both in the top 10 ... in the first round).

McGeachy's Blue Devils were blasted in two games with NC State and in two of three games with Maryland. But they did take Maryland to the wire in Cameron (losing 64-61) and in both games with UNC (losing in Cameron on Bobby Jones; steal and layup at the buzzer and in Chapel Hill on the Walter Davis miracle).

In the end, Duke finished 10-16 (2-10 ACC). The team's best win was probably a January victory at Princeton. After it all ended with an 85-66 loss to Maryland in the first round of the ACC Tournament in Greensboro, the players staged a sort of mini-revolt in the locker room afterwards, demanding that the school re-sign McGeachy and give him a chance. Their plea fell on deaf ears as James had already zeroed in on Utah coach Bill Foster who had his team in the NIT finals (and in that era, before NCAA expansion, that was a fairly big deal).

I've always wondered whether ot not McGeachy might have gotten another contract if he had beaten UNC at least once? Probably not ...
That's a great report, let me share a small follow up. My dad was a young doctor at Duke then and had always been an avid fan of the sports programs since his undergrad days. I'm not sure how he knew McGeachy, but they were friends. My dad even worked out some sort of program with him where faculty members would sponsor a few members of the team for dinner one night, which is how it ended up that we had the whole team over for dinner one evening. As a little kid, I was awestruck by the size of those guys dunking on the hoop in our driveway, it's a memory I will always have. Anyways...from the story my dad tells me, McGeahy and James did not have a bad relationship...they had NO relationship. James wouldn't even see McGeahy in his office to discuss his job, or how he was doing, or if he would be signed on for another year. Let me restate that...he would not even see him. Can you imagine an AD not even talking to his coach?
So my dad as he is often want to do, decided to see if he could make any headway himself. His solution was to talk to James, which didn't happen, so his next thought was to talk to someone who at least knew James on a professional level, and in this case he figured that Wallace Wade would be a good person to ask. Wade was retired and living on his farm in Durham, so dad took me out with him to meet Wade and pick his brain. Maybe WW wasn't tall enough, or couldn't impress me with his dunking, so I don't remember meeting him at all, but dad did talk to him and got some insight, but little in the way of a solution.
In the end of course McGeahy's contract was not renewed and Duke got Bill Foster. In hindsight, it's hard to find any fault with that hire and it layed the groundwork for where Duke basketball is today. But thanks to Neil McGeahy, I got to eat dinner with Terry Chili and a bunch of other guys that had to duck to get in our doorway. If any of y'all run into my dad at Cameron or a football game, feel free to ask about his attempts at getting McGeahy a contract extension, he tells it way better than I do..mostly because he isn't relying on the memories of a 5 year old kid.

Verga3
12-11-2011, 01:32 PM
...during all the Coach K celebration last month, I was impressed that no mention was made of Pete Gaudet. No, I'm not trolling here, just curious why he wasn't at least invited to join in the festivities, since he was a large part of the back-to-back years, and -if K's original Army team was brought in for the Davidson game- I wonder whether there is a bitter back story or just what that left him out of the list of celebrants. I don't count myself as a super-duper insider here, just a local fan since at least 1957, and got to spend some time with Gaudet at a local Health Fair function.
PS, if this is destined to cause great wailing and gnashing of teeth, please ignore, like most of my usual comments...carry on.

I think Pete was busy working out of the country.
http://hoopistani.blogspot.com/2011/11/pete-gaudet-indias-womens-coach-former.html

chrishoke
12-11-2011, 02:04 PM
Good find - thanks for the link!

gotoguy
12-11-2011, 02:39 PM
McGeachy inherited a veteran -- albiet not all that talented -- team. Junior Bob Fleischer was a burly 6-8 bruiser. Chris Redding was a slender 6-8 scorer. Kevin Billerman was a slow, but very heady point guard. Junior Willie Hodge was a slender 6-9 junior forward, a very athletic kid from Texas, and one of just two black players on the team. Then other was freshman Edgar Burch, a potentially decent 6-2 wing guard guard from Detroit. Interesting that 1973-74 was the first year of freshman eligibility and Burch was the first freshman to play at Duke since Joe Belmont and Ronnie Mayer during the Korean War. He would flunk out after one season.



Great recap of the turmoil of the Duke 73-74 season by Olympic Fan. Bob Fleisher has always been one of my favorite Duke players and Chris Redding bears a remarkable resemblence to this years Ryan Kelly with beard. Edgar Burch did play as a freshman in 73-74 but the freshman recruits and my classmates for the 72-73 season, Willie Hodge, Paul Fox, Dave O'Connell and Terry Chili all played for the Devils as freshmen as 72-73 was the first year of freshman eligibility, not 73-74.

8 points in 17 seconds would have been moot if Pete Kramer, one of Duke's better FT shooters, not missed the front end of a one and one during that agonizing segment in Carmichael.

One last comment on Buckey who also had a career as a decent color man of ACC and other NCAA hoops broadcasts. When Bubas retired, two of his assistants, Hubie Brown and Chuck Daley, applied for the head coaching job. James was looking for a candidate with head coaching experience so he hired former Bubas assistant Waters who had left to coach West Virginia. Had anyone of the assistants McGeachy, Daley or Brown been hired full time by James, Duke basketball history might have been much different.

hq2
12-11-2011, 04:58 PM
Had anyone of the assistants McGeachy, Daley or Brown been hired full time by James, Duke basketball history might have been much different.

Yes, but it's hard to say. People tend to blame Bucky without recognizing how difficult that historical era (the war, the race riots) was to deal with.
I certainly don't think Brown would have done much better; he's about as old school as Bucky was. Daly might have had more success, but who knows.
The admininstration did what they thought was right at the time; it just didn't work out that way.

Indoor66
12-11-2011, 05:11 PM
Yes, but it's hard to say. People tend to blame Bucky without recognizing how difficult that historical era (the war, the race riots) was to deal with.
I certainly don't think Brown would have done much better; he's about as old school as Bucky was. Daly might have had more success, but who knows.
The admininstration did what they thought was right at the time; it just didn't work out that way.

When Bucky left for West Virginia he was the heir apparent to Vic. When Vic retired, somewhat suddenly, Bucky was hired as his replacement. I don't think there was much thought about doing anything different. I don't remember Carl James or others speaking of anyone except Bucky to replace Vic.

When Bucky returned, the world had changed, as has been alluded to. Bucky never seemed to be able to relate to the kids of the Vietnam era. I also think that the societal changes that took place led to Vic retiring as well. It was a hard time to deal with young people.

77devil
12-11-2011, 05:43 PM
One last comment on Buckey who also had a career as a decent color man of ACC and other NCAA hoops broadcasts. When Bubas retired, two of his assistants, Hubie Brown and Chuck Daley, applied for the head coaching job. James was looking for a candidate with head coaching experience so he hired former Bubas assistant Waters who had left to coach West Virginia. Had anyone of the assistants McGeachy, Daley or Brown been hired full time by James, Duke basketball history might have been much different.


When Bucky left for West Virginia he was the heir apparent to Vic. When Vic retired, somewhat suddenly, Bucky was hired as his replacement. I don't think there was much thought about doing anything different. I don't remember Carl James or others speaking of anyone except Bucky to replace Vic.

When Bucky returned, the world had changed, as has been alluded to. Bucky never seemed to be able to relate to the kids of the Vietnam era. I also think that the societal changes that took place led to Vic retiring as well. It was a hard time to deal with young people.

I've wondered how interested Daly was in the Duke job. His Penn teams at the time were very talented, much better than Duke, and competed at the national level. Maybe the challenge of trying to restore Duke to a national power was an allure. I do know for certain from someone who played for Daly, that the Duke job was never mentioned by him to the team nor a rumor in the Penn locker room.

Neill seemed like a decent guy thrown into an untenable situation. It should come as no surprise that he did just fine. I'd just as soon forget the 1973-74 season, all things considered

throatybeard
12-11-2011, 06:06 PM
When Bucky left for West Virginia he was the heir apparent to Vic. When Vic retired, somewhat suddenly, Bucky was hired as his replacement. I don't think there was much thought about doing anything different. I don't remember Carl James or others speaking of anyone except Bucky to replace Vic.

When Bucky returned, the world had changed, as has been alluded to. Bucky never seemed to be able to relate to the kids of the Vietnam era. I also think that the societal changes that took place led to Vic retiring as well. It was a hard time to deal with young people.

Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

77devil
12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

Nevertheless, all the transfers, Dawson, O'Connor, Fitzsimmons, etc. happened in a period of a few years. Bucky had a problem whether it was communicating with the college students of the time or something else.

The 1969-70 freshman team was loaded going undefeated. Only Gary Melchionni and Alan Shaw were left for Bucky's last season. What could have been?

Olympic Fan
12-11-2011, 06:33 PM
I've wondered how interested Daly was in the Duke job. His Penn teams at the time were very talented, much better than Duke, and competed at the national level. Maybe the challenge of trying to restore Duke to a national power was an allure. I do know for certain from someone who played for Daly, that the Duke job was never mentioned by him to the team nor a rumor in the Penn locker room.

Neill seemed like a decent guy thrown into an untenable situation. It should come as no surprise that he did just fine. I'd just as soon forget the 1973-74 season, all things considered

Daly wanted the Duke job VERY badly in 1969, when Bubas retired ... he was not a candidate in the fall of 1973 (or spring on 1974) when the job opened up again.

When Bubas stepped down, AD Eddie Cameron had a choice of four candidates for the job -- and three of them are now in the Hall of Fame. He hired the fourth guy.

Daly, who was Bubas' top assistant, was regarded as a strong candidate. When Bucky got the nod, Daly went to BC for two years (replacing Bob Cousy), then to Penn. Hubie Brown, who was Bubas' freshman coach, applied, but never got a serious look.

In addition, Davidson coach (and Duke grad) Lefty Driesell, who was en route from Charlotte to College Park, Md., for the 1969 East Regionals didn't fly with his team. He drove on hios own and stopped in Durham on the way. I know he met with Vic and he tried to meet with Cameron ... not sure Cameron ever saw him. I know he never gave him a formal interview. Disappointed, Driesell went on to College Park. The day after Charlie Scott beat the Wildcats in the finals with a last-second shot, Driesell toured the Maryland campus and took the job there.

Like Daly, Driesell was no longer a viable candidate in 1973-74.

All in all, I can't complain about the way hirngs worked out. The 1970s were a tough decade for the devils -- at least until Foster got it going in 1977-78, but all that misery led to the greatest coaching hire in Duke (and maybe NCAA) history in 1980.

PS You are right, gotoguy, Burch was in the second class to play as freshmen. Do you remember Dave O'Connell from Cincinnati? Reputed to be a better leaper than David Thompson, OConnell was always hurt ... and when he did play, he could do little more than jump high.

jimsumner
12-11-2011, 10:21 PM
Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.

I don't think it was a generation gap as much as differing perceptions of the role between authority figures and the people over whom they were exerting authority.

throatybeard
12-11-2011, 11:09 PM
I don't think it was a generation gap as much as differing perceptions of the role between authority figures and the people over whom they were exerting authority.

OK, good. So there's a clear reformulation of the problem.

But that then raises the question, why was Dean able to handle it? Lefty? Sloan. Carnasecca. Schembechler. Dooley. Paterno. Bowden. Thompson. Phelan. These non-DI guys like Statham, Meyer, Magee, Big House Gaines. I realize I've named an all-star list, but surely there were a lot of other guys who got their start in the 1960s and managed to keep a critical mass of twenty-year-olds from defecting from their teams.

Between 1965 and 1973, was there a raft of casualties in coaching, over and above what you'd expect just from the fact that half the coaches have to go >.500? Or is this just a narrative that has been applied to Bucky Waters in retrospect?

Olympic Fan
12-12-2011, 01:28 AM
OK, good. So there's a clear reformulation of the problem.

But that then raises the question, why was Dean able to handle it? Lefty? Sloan. Carnasecca. Schembechler. Dooley. Paterno. Bowden. Thompson. Phelan. These non-DI guys like Statham, Meyer, Magee, Big House Gaines. I realize I've named an all-star list, but surely there were a lot of other guys who got their start in the 1960s and managed to keep a critical mass of twenty-year-olds from defecting from their teams.

Between 1965 and 1973, was there a raft of casualties in coaching, over and above what you'd expect just from the fact that half the coaches have to go >.500? Or is this just a narrative that has been applied to Bucky Waters in retrospect?

Believe me, I was there and as great as guy as Bucky is, he did have problems exerting authority over his kids. This isn't just a narrative that has been applied in retrospect.

Bucky admits that the was a hard***. He used to brag that when the Duke team traveled, they didn't take any hair-dryers along (remember, this is a time when a lot of kids liked long hair). I once heard him tell a reporter that he didn't care if his players hated him ... he claimed that Bubas' players hated Bubas too! When Miami of Ohio upset UNC in Chapel Hill, their starting center was the same Dave Elmer who left Duke after one game of his sophomore season (he actually refused to go into the game because he knew he was transferring and didn't want to lose a year of eligibility). Elmer talked to reporters after the game and complained about how he transferred becaus he couldn't play for Bucky any more ... that's not somthing concocted in hindsight.

As you noted, there were a lot of successful coaches who didn't have problems dealing with kids in that era. But a lot did -- it's easy to remember the successful coaches who succeeded. What we frget are all the failures -- like Waters -- who couldn't reach the kids in that tumultuous period.

sagegrouse
12-12-2011, 06:52 AM
Yes, but it's hard to say. People tend to blame Bucky without recognizing how difficult that historical era (the war, the race riots) was to deal with.
I certainly don't think Brown would have done much better; he's about as old school as Bucky was. Daly might have had more success, but who knows.
The admininstration did what they thought was right at the time; it just didn't work out that way.


When Bucky left for West Virginia he was the heir apparent to Vic. When Vic retired, somewhat suddenly, Bucky was hired as his replacement. I don't think there was much thought about doing anything different. I don't remember Carl James or others speaking of anyone except Bucky to replace Vic.

When Bucky returned, the world had changed, as has been alluded to. Bucky never seemed to be able to relate to the kids of the Vietnam era. I also think that the societal changes that took place led to Vic retiring as well. It was a hard time to deal with young people.


Everybody says this about Bucky Waters, and I'm not disputing it, because I wasn't around at the time. But I've always thought it odd, given that he started at WVU when he was just 30 and was still only 34 when he came back to Duke. So yeah, he's Silent and the kids are Boom by that point, but it's not like he's retirement age like Wooden in 1975, or Dean in 1997. I'm aware of all the societal changes at the time, but it still seems to me a little strange that a guy in his mid-30s would be incapable of handling 20-year-olds. Don't trust anyone over 30, I suppose.


I don't think it was a generation gap as much as differing perceptions of the role between authority figures and the people over whom they were exerting authority.

I always thought that Bucky Waters was the victim of his era, the final years of the Vietnam War and the radicalization of college campuses. There was no period like that in the history of American education. And while those above who wondered how Bucky failed but Dean and Lefty survived -- well, they weren't at Duke in the late '60s and early '70s. No, there probably weren't radicals on the Duke basketball team, but the athletes clearly were part of campus life and had to have been affected.

It is hard to remember the era, but it was just awful on college campuses. Why was it so bad? The Vietnam War was increasing unpopular, and the US was losing over 10,000 soldiers and marines every year. While it was bad enough on campus when students were able to get deferments to continue their education, it blew up totally when student deferments were eliminated for graduate education in the late 1960s and ended totally in 1971. Student protesters shut down Columbia in the spring of 1968, and such protests continued through at least 1972. The universities so affected often mailed out grades and diplomas, even though classes and exams were never held. A legion of college presidents at elite universities threw in the towel: Douglas Knight at Duke, Kenneth Pitzer at Stanford, and Nathan Pusey at Harvard are just the beginning of a long list. The only guy who seemed to survive was Kingman Brewster at Yale (chronicled in the early Doonesbury strip), who took to the streets with the students. I am sure he was viewed as a complete lunatic by other presidents, but it worked for him. The situation at Duke was so bad in 1969 that it recruited a talented politician and lawyer, Terry Sanford, to serve as president.

Does Bucky get a "pass" because of Vietnam? No, not really, but the violence and turmoil on college campuses were unprecedented before or since. I gave him an "incomplete."

sagegrouse

jimsumner
12-12-2011, 09:23 AM
I always thought that Bucky Waters was the victim of his era, the final years of the Vietnam War and the radicalization of college campuses. There was no period like that in the history of American education. And while those above who wondered how Bucky failed but Dean and Lefty survived -- well, they weren't at Duke in the late '60s and early '70s. No, there probably weren't radicals on the Duke basketball team, but the athletes clearly were part of campus life and had to have been affected.

It is hard to remember the era, but it was just awful on college campuses. Why was it so bad? The Vietnam War was increasing unpopular, and the US was losing over 10,000 soldiers and marines every year. While it was bad enough on campus when students were able to get deferments to continue their education, it blew up totally when student deferments were eliminated for graduate education in the late 1960s and ended totally in 1971. Student protesters shut down Columbia in the spring of 1968, and such protests continued through at least 1972. The universities so affected often mailed out grades and diplomas, even though classes and exams were never held. A legion of college presidents at elite universities threw in the towel: Douglas Knight at Duke, Kenneth Pitzer at Stanford, and Nathan Pusey at Harvard are just the beginning of a long list. The only guy who seemed to survive was Kingman Brewster at Yale (chronicled in the early Doonesbury strip), who took to the streets with the students. I am sure he was viewed as a complete lunatic by other presidents, but it worked for him. The situation at Duke was so bad in 1969 that it recruited a talented politician and lawyer, Terry Sanford, to serve as president.

Does Bucky get a "pass" because of Vietnam? No, not really, but the violence and turmoil on college campuses were unprecedented before or since. I gave him an "incomplete."

sagegrouse

Seems fair to me. And, yes, I was there, too.

Bucky was of the When-I-say-jump, you-ask-how-high- mindset. His players wanted an explanation of why they should jump. The cultures just didn't meet.

It got messy. Real messy.

roywhite
12-12-2011, 09:38 AM
Seems fair to me. And, yes, I was there, too.

Bucky was of the When-I-say-jump, you-ask-how-high- mindset. His players wanted an explanation of why they should jump. The cultures just didn't meet.

It got messy. Real messy.

A couple additional points from an undergrad from that era:

It took a while for Duke to get talented African-American players fully into the program. Don Blackmon came in as a freshman in 1968-69, showed some promise, but transferred after his sophomore year
As noted previously, Edgar Burch flunked out of school.
Willie Hodges had some ability, but was inconsistent.
In the mean time, rival schools were attracting players like David Thompson, Charles Scott, Bill Chamberlain, Charlie Davis at Wake, and Len Elmore at Maryland.
It took until the arrival of Gene Banks in 1977-78 for Duke to have a truly successful African-American player and Bucky was long gone by then.
Probably not fair to blame these recruiting difficulties entirely on Bucky, but it didn't help the progress of the program

Bucky was just not a very good communicator with the players IMO
I recall some years back when long-time trainer Max Crowder passed away that Bucky made some remarks about how he would often check with Max to get a feel for what the players were thinking. Nothing wrong with talking with the trainer, and credit to Max here, but you just can't imagine Coach K being unaware himself of what the players were thinking, and dispatching a trainer for a report.

Bucky has gone on to do some fine things for the University and did well in broadcasting.
He's a good man, but was not the right man for head coach in the early 1970's.

hq2
12-12-2011, 09:58 AM
Yeah, Bucky got hit with a double whammy of both the war and the race riots. He came in about a year
after King was assassinated, and racial tensions in Durham were still high then. Duke had been a segregated
campus for a long time, and Bucky had to recruit black players against Carolina and other programs to a program
that had never had any. That and the war was just too much for him. And, I should point out, if K, WEST POINT
GRADUATE, had been at Duke in '69, he would not have fared any better and K knows it too. Bucky was
simply the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Reilly
12-12-2011, 10:33 AM
Very interesting thread.

What were Bucky's attributes as a basketball coach? For that matter, what were Bubas's, Daly's, and Hubie Brown's .... that is, what were they and their teams known for, basketball-wise, in the way that K is known for defense, and for being a psyhological master at getting his teams to seemingly play harder than other teams ... or that Bubas (so I've read) revolutionized recruiting, making it more systematic and getting in earlier.... or some coaches are known for pressing, others for the fast break ... what's the book on this cast of characters ...

jimsumner
12-12-2011, 10:36 AM
A couple additional points from an undergrad from that era:

It took a while for Duke to get talented African-American players fully into the program. Don Blackmon came in as a freshman in 1968-69, showed some promise, but transferred after his sophomore year
As noted previously, Edgar Burch flunked out of school.
Willie Hodges had some ability, but was inconsistent.
In the mean time, rival schools were attracting players like David Thompson, Charles Scott, Bill Chamberlain, Charlie Davis at Wake, and Len Elmore at Maryland.
It took until the arrival of Gene Banks in 1977-78 for Duke to have a truly successful African-American player and Bucky was long gone by then.
Probably not fair to blame these recruiting difficulties entirely on Bucky, but it didn't help the progress of the program

Bucky was just not a very good communicator with the players IMO
I recall some years back when long-time trainer Max Crowder passed away that Bucky made some remarks about how he would often check with Max to get a feel for what the players were thinking. Nothing wrong with talking with the trainer, and credit to Max here, but you just can't imagine Coach K being unaware himself of what the players were thinking, and dispatching a trainer for a report.

Bucky has gone on to do some fine things for the University and did well in broadcasting.
He's a good man, but was not the right man for head coach in the early 1970's.

Duke did recruit Thompson, John Lucas, Scott (when Bubas was in charge), James Brown, Geoff Crompton, Craig Littlepage and other high-profile African Americans and just couldn't get any traction.

Willie Hodge was pretty good. Averaged 17 and 8 as a senior. George Moses also deserves a mention here.

Waters took over at WVU from George King. King had left a number of African American players, including star guard Ron Williams. West Virgina was in the Southern Conference. We're talking mid-1960s here. Bucky would go to places like Furman and the Citadel--not known as bastions of pro-integration sentiment-and put three or four black players on the floor at the same time. And get considerable grief for it.

Bucky also hired Jim Lewis, one of his WVU players, as a Duke assistant. Lewis was one of the first African American coaches in the ACC.

So, whatever problems Duke may have had recruiting African Americans, a reluctant head coach was not among them.

throatybeard
12-12-2011, 10:39 AM
Bucky admits that the was a hard***. He used to brag that when the Duke team traveled, they didn't take any hair-dryers along (remember, this is a time when a lot of kids liked long hair).

That's pretty funny. I don't even own a hair-dryer. My wife does, but she scarcely uses it, coz she says it damages her hair. I look at the pictures in Brill 1986, of the 70s teams, and between the white-boy 'fros and the porn-star mustaches, my eyes bleed.


And, I should point out, if K, WEST POINT GRADUATE, had been at Duke in '69, he would not have fared any better and K knows it too. Bucky was simply the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is a very interesting point. And he was 22 at the time. Right man, right place, right time in 1980.

roywhite
12-12-2011, 11:05 AM
Duke did recruit Thompson, John Lucas, Scott (when Bubas was in charge), James Brown, Geoff Crompton, Craig Littlepage and other high-profile African Americans and just couldn't get any traction.

Willie Hodge was pretty good. Averaged 17 and 8 as a senior. George Moses also deserves a mention here.

Waters took over at WVU from George King. King had left a number of African American players, including star guard Ron Williams. West Virgina was in the Southern Conference. We're talking mid-1960s here. Bucky would go to places like Furman and the Citadel--not known as bastions of pro-integration sentiment-and put three or four black players on the floor at the same time. And get considerable grief for it.

Bucky also hired Jim Lewis, one of his WVU players, as a Duke assistant. Lewis was one of the first African American coaches in the ACC.

So, whatever problems Duke may have had recruiting African Americans, a reluctant head coach was not among them.


Not a lack of effort or prejudice on Bucky's part, just ineffective in this area.

Probably didn't help that players were leaving the program, and existing players were not enthusiastic in their support of Waters.
The success of recruiting visits often hinges on the feedback from existing players.

PaIronDuke
12-12-2011, 12:01 PM
That's a great report, let me share a small follow up. My dad was a young doctor at Duke then and had always been an avid fan of the sports programs since his undergrad days. I'm not sure how he knew McGeachy, but they were friends. My dad even worked out some sort of program with him where faculty members would sponsor a few members of the team for dinner one night, which is how it ended up that we had the whole team over for dinner one evening. As a little kid, I was awestruck by the size of those guys dunking on the hoop in our driveway, it's a memory I will always have. Anyways...from the story my dad tells me, McGeahy and James did not have a bad relationship...they had NO relationship. James wouldn't even see McGeahy in his office to discuss his job, or how he was doing, or if he would be signed on for another year. Let me restate that...he would not even see him. Can you imagine an AD not even talking to his coach?
So my dad as he is often want to do, decided to see if he could make any headway himself. His solution was to talk to James, which didn't happen, so his next thought was to talk to someone who at least knew James on a professional level, and in this case he figured that Wallace Wade would be a good person to ask. Wade was retired and living on his farm in Durham, so dad took me out with him to meet Wade and pick his brain. Maybe WW wasn't tall enough, or couldn't impress me with his dunking, so I don't remember meeting him at all, but dad did talk to him and got some insight, but little in the way of a solution.
In the end of course McGeahy's contract was not renewed and Duke got Bill Foster. In hindsight, it's hard to find any fault with that hire and it layed the groundwork for where Duke basketball is today. But thanks to Neil McGeahy, I got to eat dinner with Terry Chili and a bunch of other guys that had to duck to get in our doorway. If any of y'all run into my dad at Cameron or a football game, feel free to ask about his attempts at getting McGeahy a contract extension, he tells it way better than I do..mostly because he isn't relying on the memories of a 5 year old kid.

One of the really neat things about being a part of the "DBR community" is the history that many of the posters bring to the board-as in CB&B.Although this is not "history" per se, I wanted to add to the story above that McGeachy's daughter is Ashley McGeachy Fox, who for several years was a respected sportswriter for the Philadelphia Inquirer-quite attractive, by the way..... She left for, as I recall, an upward move-maybe to ESPN, I forget- but my point is that occasionally a Duke reference would surface in her column, and it sometimes had what I perceived to be an "edge" to it-which at the time surprised me, knowing of her dad's association with Duke. She seemed to be quite a talented, objective writer, but the comments above suggest the reason for her attitude. Godspeed, wherever you are, Ashley.....

hq2
12-12-2011, 12:20 PM
porn-star mustaches

Terry Chili? :cool:

jimsumner
12-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Terry Chili? :cool:

Add Tate Armstrong.

hq2
12-12-2011, 02:21 PM
Yeah, but as I recall, Chili was known for more than his mustache!

77devil
12-12-2011, 03:55 PM
One of the really neat things about being a part of the "DBR community" is the history that many of the posters bring to the board-as in CB&B.Although this is not "history" per se, I wanted to add to the story above that McGeachy's daughter is Ashley McGeachy Fox, who for several years was a respected sportswriter for the Philadelphia Inquirer-quite attractive, by the way..... She left for, as I recall, an upward move-maybe to ESPN, I forget- but my point is that occasionally a Duke reference would surface in her column, and it sometimes had what I perceived to be an "edge" to it-which at the time surprised me, knowing of her dad's association with Duke. She seemed to be quite a talented, objective writer, but the comments above suggest the reason for her attitude. Godspeed, wherever you are, Ashley.....

Never made the connection. Fox didn't use her middle/maiden name in her print byline. I do remember one of her early pieces as an Inquirer columnist at ACC tournament time. Fox described herself as a "Carolina gal" even though, in her words, she didn't attend UNC. Now the affiliation makes more sense.