Xavier-Cincinnati brawl

[DevilOfATime]

What will be the fall out between the fight between Xavier and Cincinnati players will be? For a moment I thought I was watching an NBA or Hockey game. I know there will be player suspensions, probably school fines. But wonder if there will be any player suspensions for rest of the season? Was sad to see the fight today, with everything going on with College sports with scandals and etc.

[rthomas]

"We've got a whole bunch of gangsters in the locker room – not thugs, but tough guys on the court. And we went out there and zipped them up at the end of the game."

Both Cincinnati and Xavier should just check themselves into the nearest prison.

[mkline09]

"We've got a whole bunch of gangsters in the locker room – not thugs, but tough guys on the court. And we went out there and zipped them up at the end of the game."

Both Cincinnati and Xavier should just check themselves into the nearest prison.

Thankfully K doesn't recruit that type of kid to Duke. It is great when those kids get a chance to leave that life behind and make something of themselves but that kind of mentality shouldn't fly in college sports or on a college campus. Coaches need to have better control over there players.

[Newton_14]

Below is the link to the video and presser. I would encourage all to watch the entire thing. This was really bad, and I was saddened by the comments of the Xavier players after the game, even though the Cincy kids I thought were more at fault during the brawl. I was, however, impressed by Cincy Coach, Cronin's comments after the game. If he is true to his word, a couple of Cincy kids may have just played their last game.

Just a really bad situation. The Xavier center got suckered punched right in the side of the head in the eye area, then got kicked/stomped after he fell to the ground from the punch.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7339184/cincinnati-bearcats-coach-embarrassed-brawl-xavier-musketeers

[Bob Green]

The fight (brawl) at the end of the game was ugly. Several players will be facing serious suspensions. Personally, I believe both head coaches should be severely disciplined by the NCAA for losing control of their players.

[cspan37421]

The fight (brawl) at the end of the game was ugly. Several players will be facing serious suspensions. Personally, I believe both head coaches should be severely disciplined by the NCAA for losing control of their players.

I tend to agree, because I don't believe this event happened in a vacuum. The 5 minute highlight clearly showed there was plenty of yapping during the game and that led tensions to rise to a boil. A coach is responsible for keeping his guys under control. If you see a kid playing with matches, you step in. And I did see at least one Xavier player throw a punch. Another pretty much got right up in the grill of the Cincy guy who threw the most damaging punch, clearly trying to bait him into throwing another.

Very interesting that the head coach of Cincy said he had to forcibly remove the team jersey from some of his players.

Suspensions - yes. I would not be surprised if there was an expulsion for sucker-punch guy.

[78Devil]

I was really appalled at the Xavier players press comments after the game. How oblivious can they be? We definitely saw the underbelly today...

[gep]

Below is the link to the video and presser. I would encourage all to watch the entire thing. This was really bad, and I was saddened by the comments of the Xavier players after the game, even though the Cincy kids I thought were more at fault during the brawl. I was, however, impressed by Cincy Coach, Cronin's comments after the game. If he is true to his word, a couple of Cincy kids may have just played their last game.

Just a really bad situation. The Xavier center got suckered punched right in the side of the head in the eye area, then got kicked/stomped after he fell to the ground from the punch.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7339184/cincinnati-bearcats-coach-embarrassed-brawl-xavier-musketeers

I got this quote from the linked article...

************
"People have to understand that this is like Duke-Carolina," Holloway said of the Crosstown shootout. "I don't think people get that."
************

Correct me if I'm wrong, but outside of that Heyman/Brown (?) incident "many years ago", I think Duke-Carolina have been a heated rivalry, but never this kind of violent confrontations... even the Henderson/Hans incident. In fact, I remember reading stuff that Duke and Carolina players have played together during pick-up games all the time... and seemed to get along pretty well. I guess I just didn't like the connotation that Duke-Carolina have the same kind of "violent rivalry" that Holloway implies...

[doctorhook]

For all the lawyers out there, why shouldn't Gates be arrested for assault?

[COYS]

I got this quote from the linked article...

************
"People have to understand that this is like Duke-Carolina," Holloway said of the Crosstown shootout. "I don't think people get that."
************

Correct me if I'm wrong, but outside of that Heyman/Brown (?) incident "many years ago", I think Duke-Carolina have been a heated rivalry, but never this kind of violent confrontations... even the Henderson/Hans incident. In fact, I remember reading stuff that Duke and Carolina players have played together during pick-up games all the time... and seemed to get along pretty well. I guess I just didn't like the connotation that Duke-Carolina have the same kind of "violent rivalry" that Holloway implies...

I'd take it as a compliment. Everyone wishes their rivalry were as awesome (and relatively clean with just enough incidents to add some extra electricity) as ours.

[wgl1228]

I could not believe my ears when the Xavier players commented after the game. First of all, if I were the coach they would have been barred from doing so. Second, this is "thug" talk and an example needs to be made of these teams.

[gep]

I'd take it as a compliment. Everyone wishes their rivalry were as awesome (and relatively clean with just enough incidents to add some extra electricity) as ours.

I agree with you, but my concern is that Holloway's quote, along with the press conference clip, gave his quote a very different meaning to me... like Duke-Carolina is not "relatively clean", but gangsters/tough guys going at it like what we saw. I hope we never see such actions in any game again, especially Duke-Carolina... (my 2 cents, fwiw)

[gam7]

Suspensions - yes. I would not be surprised if there was an expulsion for sucker-punch guy.

I think a reasonable precedent for the punishment of Yancy Gates will be what we saw Oregon do with LeGarrette Blount after the 2009 Oregon-Boise State game. Blount blind-sided a Boise State defensive lineman with a punch immediately after the game and then had to be restrained from going after Boise State fans in the stands on his way to the locker room.

Like Blount was for Oregon, Gates is one of Cincinnati's best players, if not the best, averaging nearly a double-double - 13 and 9.5. This is a Cincinnati team that was ranked in the top 25 in the preseason and likely will make the NCAA tournament. The punches thrown by the two players looked very similar and occurred early in the season.

Oregon suspended Blount for the entire season, but reinstated him two months later after having missed ten games though in time for the postseason. Oregon requested and received the sign-off from the Pac 10 before reinstating him.

I would not be surprised to see Cincinnati suspend Gates for the entire year, but could see Cincinnati asking permission from the conference to reinstate him towards the end of the year.

[mapei]

I hate the "suspension for the year" that conveniently turns out to be less than that at crunch time. Whatever the penalty is, mean it literally when you impose it.

The guy who stomped on Frease as he tried to get up (unlike Laettner's, this actually was a stomp) should get a very severe penalty, too. But my fear is that the penalties will be lighter than I wish, and that despite Cronin's comments no one will be kicked off the team.

As for penalizing the coaches, I'm not so sure. I would prefer that the program get penalized rather than individuals. Send a message to the adminstration of the schools. If that's what you meant, Bob, I agree.

[uh_no]

As for penalizing the coaches, I'm not so sure. I would prefer that the program get penalized rather than individuals. Send a message to the adminstration of the schools. If that's what you meant, Bob, I agree.

Listening to Cronin's comments, he sounded dead serious....about coming up with punishment with the AD and president.

Holloway needs to have someone sit him down and tell him why his comments were so inappropriate. I understand them from some point.....with testosterone and adrenaline flowing, as I'm sure it was, during the press conference, but I certainly hope someone, a coach, whatever sits him down and sets him straight

[dukebballcamper90-91]

Ban both of them from the NCAA tournament so the possibility of us playing those gangsters is removed.

[OldPhiKap]

For all the lawyers out there, why shouldn't Gates be arrested for assault?

He should be. And I think there are precedents with hockey fights to that effect.



You don't consent to being cold-cocked because you engage in a sport.

[oldnavy]

I would like to go back and watch the whole game. I am sure that there was smack talking and whatnot going on long before the pushing and punching began. I hold both the game officials and the coaching staff responsible along with the players.

You know going in to this game that there are emotions. You have to have a very quick whistle as a ref, and you need to have a very quick hook as a coach if you see players bowing up at each other.

Not saying this didn't happen, because I didn't see the game, but if it did not then I think the suspensions should not just be limited to the players...

[captmojo]

Refund ticket sales and concede seasons for BOTH teams!
If any action may be taken against the coaches, it should be for trotting out players to the media room where they were heard to sound as uncivilized and uneducated as they were. Let it be recruiting restrictions, re-negotiations of contracts, self-imposed elimination for postseason play for an additional year to show that this is completely unacceptable behavior.
ALL sanctions that can be imposed short of the 'Death Penalty', will show that the NCAA puts teeth in this kind of thing.

I was impressed with Cronin's response, but not his handling oversight of what may have been to come. If it's true, that taunting between players before the fact really occured, then a response should have been made publicly following his players consulting with him that the taunts took place, BEFORE THE GAME.

This is both sad and sick.

[wsb3]

That might be the worse college brawl I can recall since Ohio State vs Minnesota in the 70's, which hopefully will never be topped. I was a kid then and it escaped me until now that Dave Winfield was part of that.

[moonpie23]

there was a huge brawl between Carolina (south) and maryland during the early 70's where john ribock actually punched lefty in the face.....i don't think there were any suspensions....

[coldriver10]

I have a lot of respect for the Cincinnati coach after hearing his press conference. He's the kind of coach I'd want representing my school.

As for Gates, he should be suspended for the rest of the year...not just for the actual sucker-punch but also for swinging at someone else and then putting up his fists like he was ready for more. Absolutely embarrassing for their program.

[Kdogg]

Listening to Cronin's comments, he sounded dead serious....about coming up with punishment with the AD and president.

Holloway needs to have someone sit him down and tell him why his comments were so inappropriate. I understand them from some point.....with testosterone and adrenaline flowing, as I'm sure it was, during the press conference, but I certainly hope someone, a coach, whatever sits him down and sets him straight

How isn't there somebody from the SID shutting him down?

[RoyalBlue08]

How isn't there somebody from the SID shutting him down?

This is exactly what I was thinking seeing that. Isn't there anyone from the school at these press conferences? I am surprised there aren't three guys diving for the microphone.

[davekay1971]

I have a lot of respect for the Cincinnati coach after hearing his press conference. He's the kind of coach I'd want representing my school.

As for Gates, he should be suspended for the rest of the year...not just for the actual sucker-punch but also for swinging at someone else and then putting up his fists like he was ready for more. Absolutely embarrassing for their program.

Agree completely about Cronin. I hope he follows up those very appropriate words with actions. As long as he does that, he'll be a guy I'd be proud to have represent my school.

[Bob Green]

More words of wisdom from Tu Holloway:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111210/COL03/312100076/Doc-Complete-embarrassment-s-understating-it


"That's what the Crosstown Shootout is about," he said. "Guys getting ejected, guys throwing elbows."


"You don't let people disrespect you. That's what I'm about. I don't regret anything that happened," said Holloway.

[duke98]

I'm a Duke alum and current faculty member at Xavier who was in attendance at the game yesterday.* I've been thinking a lot about this incident and what it says about the current college sports landscape, and how we can learn from it. (Heck, I'm an academic - thinking is what we do.)

I've only been here about a year, but it's been long enough that I know what a big deal the Crosstown Shootout is. The whole city gets involved. Almost everyone here has a connection to one of the schools, if not multiple connections.

I've always seen the Xavier-Cincy rivalry through the lens of my experience with Duke-Carolina. There are a lot of similarities: public/private, great basketball programs, colleges located within spitting distance of each other. (Xavier and Cincy are actually less than 4 miles apart, I believe.)

The element of difference, I really think, is tradition - the Crosstown Shootout has only really been competitive since the 1980s. This makes the Xavier-Cincinnati rivalry the equivalent of an 18-year-old kid, in my opinion. Lots of hormones, little perspective, and no thought to consequences. This is always a hard-fought game, but there's never been an incident like this before. Maybe this incident will help the rivalry "grow up" a little.

In retrospect, it's hard not to see this coming. Xavier and Cincinnati players both were jawing through the whole game. Mark Lyons of Xavier should have been teed up at the end of the first half for dropping some F-bombs at the Cincinnati bench as the teams left the court for halftime. Apparently both coaches had asked the refs to assess technical fouls for this but none of the refs did this. The "let them play" attitude definitely contributed to the brawl taking place.

A lot has been made of Holloway's "gangster" comments after the game. I could write an entire dissertation about the cultural context that influences talk like this, but I already wrote one of those, and I don't want to do that again. :) I actually value the comments of Xavier Coach Mack regarding these comments after the game - that whatever Holloway (and Lyons) might have said after the game, they were still good kids. If anyone would know, he would. Words are words.

Really, this leads into the heart of the matter: why are 20-year-old college kids doing press conferences at all? Why did an ESPN reporter try to coax inflammatory statements out of UC's Kilpatrick - who stated that Holloway wouldn't even start if he played for UC - before the game to fan the flames? (PS - the game was televised on ESPN. Coincidence?) Holloway directly referenced these comments in his post-game statements.

These are kids. Do you remember what you were like at 21? We put these kids in a pressure cooker like college basketball and we shouldn't be surprised when, inevitably, someone snaps. It's a sad turn of events and a bitter note to a beloved rivalry, but we need to think about using this as an opportunity for self-reflection before moving forward and trying to protect the game that we all love. Dismissing both teams and their players as a bunch of thugs is an oversimplification and, inevitably, completely unproductive. All of this in my humble opinion, of course.

*As an odd coincidence, I was getting my PhD at Oregon when the LeGarrette Blount punch happened. Apparently I am some sort of magnet for sports-brawling incidents.

[killerleft]

More words of wisdom from Tu Holloway:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111210/COL03/312100076/Doc-Complete-embarrassment-s-understating-it

That's just how an immature idiot rolls, I guess. Hopefully he doesn't end up dead before he realizes (if he ever does) that thugs and gangstas are all about DIShonoring people and very little else.

Added for duke98: I appreciate your post. But I feel that those things should be addressed AFTER some very harsh penalties are doled out to those deemed to be at fault during the brawl. In the end, even teenagers must be held responsible for deliberately trying to hurt others.

[uh_no]

That might be the worse college brawl I can recall since Ohio State vs Minnesota in the 70's, which hopefully will never be topped. I was a kid then and it escaped me until now that Dave Winfield was part of that.

If you mean between two college teams, certainly....but georgetown v China over the summer was about as nasty.....with the stomping....heck one guy was swinging a chair

[tendev]

I am sure you are not defending the comments, but cultural context does not excuse the comments. At this point, the fight is over and, upon reflection, the young man needs to know that it is not time to continue in a press conference what happened on the court. College, I hope, is a place where you can learn that if you are willing to listen. I hope his Coach teaches him at least that much.



I'm a Duke alum and current faculty member at Xavier who was in attendance at the game yesterday.* I've been thinking a lot about this incident and what it says about the current college sports landscape, and how we can learn from it. (Heck, I'm an academic - thinking is what we do.)

I've only been here about a year, but it's been long enough that I know what a big deal the Crosstown Shootout is. The whole city gets involved. Almost everyone here has a connection to one of the schools, if not multiple connections.

I've always seen the Xavier-Cincy rivalry through the lens of my experience with Duke-Carolina. There are a lot of similarities: public/private, great basketball programs, colleges located within spitting distance of each other. (Xavier and Cincy are actually less than 4 miles apart, I believe.)

The element of difference, I really think, is tradition - the Crosstown Shootout has only really been competitive since the 1980s. This makes the Xavier-Cincinnati rivalry the equivalent of an 18-year-old kid, in my opinion. Lots of hormones, little perspective, and no thought to consequences. This is always a hard-fought game, but there's never been an incident like this before. Maybe this incident will help the rivalry "grow up" a little.

In retrospect, it's hard not to see this coming. Xavier and Cincinnati players both were jawing through the whole game. Mark Lyons of Xavier should have been teed up at the end of the first half for dropping some F-bombs at the Cincinnati bench as the teams left the court for halftime. Apparently both coaches had asked the refs to assess technical fouls for this but none of the refs did this. The "let them play" attitude definitely contributed to the brawl taking place.

A lot has been made of Holloway's "gangster" comments after the game. I could write an entire dissertation about the cultural context that influences talk like this, but I already wrote one of those, and I don't want to do that again. :) I actually value the comments of Xavier Coach Mack regarding these comments after the game - that whatever Holloway (and Lyons) might have said after the game, they were still good kids. If anyone would know, he would. Words are words.

Really, this leads into the heart of the matter: why are 20-year-old college kids doing press conferences at all? Why did an ESPN reporter try to coax inflammatory statements out of UC's Kilpatrick - who stated that Holloway wouldn't even start if he played for UC - before the game to fan the flames? (PS - the game was televised on ESPN. Coincidence?) Holloway directly referenced these comments in his post-game statements.

These are kids. Do you remember what you were like at 21? We put these kids in a pressure cooker like college basketball and we shouldn't be surprised when, inevitably, someone snaps. It's a sad turn of events and a bitter note to a beloved rivalry, but we need to think about using this as an opportunity for self-reflection before moving forward and trying to protect the game that we all love. Dismissing both teams and their players as a bunch of thugs is an oversimplification and, inevitably, completely unproductive. All of this in my humble opinion, of course.

*As an odd coincidence, I was getting my PhD at Oregon when the LeGarrette Blount punch happened. Apparently I am some sort of magnet for sports-brawling incidents.

[MCFinARL]

I hate the "suspension for the year" that conveniently turns out to be less than that at crunch time. Whatever the penalty is, mean it literally when you impose it.

The guy who stomped on Frease as he tried to get up (unlike Laettner's, this actually was a stomp) should get a very severe penalty, too. But my fear is that the penalties will be lighter than I wish, and that despite Cronin's comments no one will be kicked off the team.

As for penalizing the coaches, I'm not so sure. I would prefer that the program get penalized rather than individuals. Send a message to the adminstration of the schools. If that's what you meant, Bob, I agree.

Yes, although IIRC, when Blount's suspension was originally imposed, the team left open the possibility that he could earn his way back early through good behavior. If that is right, I'm less bothered by the decision than I would be otherwise. (Of course, it's also possible I don't recall correctly.)

[allenmurray]

A lot has been made of Holloway's "gangster" comments after the game. I could write an entire dissertation about the cultural context that influences talk like this, but I already wrote one of those, and I don't want to do that again. :) I actually value the comments of Xavier Coach Mack regarding these comments after the game - that whatever Holloway (and Lyons) might have said after the game, they were still good kids. If anyone would know, he would. Words are words.


I'm an administrator in an urban, minority-majority (70% African-American) high poverty school system. My son plays basketball for one of the high schools. Thus I do have some understanding of the culture that produces these attitudes. I also know that if my son's coach (an African-American coach who has been coaching 30+ years) heard any of his players referring to himself or his team-mates as "thugs" or "gangstas" the player would be running until his feet bled. Actually, he wouldn't be, because he would no longer be on the team. He would simply have no tolerance for it.

No matter who Holloway was when he came to Xavier, his coach has a responsibility to turn help him mature past that. It seems he failed.

[chrishoke]

I appreciate Cronin's comments after the game. My question is, why was he so focused on the failure of the refs to act. What did he do to stop the jawing of his own team during the game? Did he sit anyone? Did he send any of his guys to the locker room?

[Bluedog]

I appreciate Cronin's comments after the game. My question is, why was he so focused on the failure of the refs to act. What did he do to stop the jawing of his own team during the game? Did he sit anyone? Did he send any of his guys to the locker room?

He claimed he talked to them at halftime, but sure sounds like he didn't do enough during the game itself. But if the refs did indeed hear all the trashtalking going on throughout the second half, they definitely should have T'ed some people up and not let it get out of hand. Clearly, there's a lot of blame to go around and I don't think Cronin was trying to say his team or himself is free of blame, especially since he said "I hope the AD doesn't ask for my resignation after this embarrassment" or something like that. Xavier's coach, on the other hand, seemed to think his players did nothing wrong and nothing was terribly awry after the game (and he couldn't come to any conclusions) until he had time to review all the film....And he almost excused some of the behavior in my mind besides calling it "disappointing." Seemed like a pretty stark contrast to me between the coaches.

[Newton_14]

More words of wisdom from Tu Holloway:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111210/COL03/312100076/Doc-Complete-embarrassment-s-understating-it

Wow Bob. That is even worse. Holloway helped start the brawl, then even after he had time to cool off, he went into the presser with terrible comments, and now having even more time to cool off, calm down, and reflect, he is not only not remorseful, but proud of the brawl. That's pretty sad to be honest.

[throatybeard]

Let me pause to observe what a cool name Tu Holloway is.

[allenmurray]

Yancy Gates, Octavius Ellis and Cheikh Mbodj will each be suspended for a six games and Ge’Lawn Guyn for one game.

No word yet from Xavier.

[slower]

Wow Bob. That is even worse. Holloway helped start the brawl, then even after he had time to cool off, he went into the presser with terrible comments, and now having even more time to cool off, calm down, and reflect, he is not only not remorseful, but proud of the brawl. That's pretty sad to be honest.

This will be interesting, since Holloway has gotten major love from the press this year as a potential first-team All-American. Be on the lookout for the "star treatment" and see how much, if any, he is actually penalized, be it officially or in the media.

[subzero02]

I got this quote from the linked article...

************
"People have to understand that this is like Duke-Carolina," Holloway said of the Crosstown shootout. "I don't think people get that."
************

Correct me if I'm wrong, but outside of that Heyman/Brown (?) incident "many years ago", I think Duke-Carolina have been a heated rivalry, but never this kind of violent confrontations... even the Henderson/Hans incident. In fact, I remember reading stuff that Duke and Carolina players have played together during pick-up games all the time... and seemed to get along pretty well. I guess I just didn't like the connotation that Duke-Carolina have the same kind of "violent rivalry" that Holloway implies...

Please don't tell me that you've forgotten about Andre Buckner's shove of ewe in sea head coach Matt Doherty. If that happened today I think Andre might face a suspension... Andre wasn't happy about Dohery coming over to our bench.

[Troublemaker]

In heated rivalry games, a fight will break out occasionally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0RroAH4vwU&feature=youtu.be&t=20s

Clearly fights are wrong and the appropriate suspensions should occur, but I wouldn't extrapolate yesterday's Cincy-Xavier brawl into some sort of message about "types of kids" or "cultures" or whatever.

[allenmurray]

This will be interesting, since Holloway has gotten major love from the press this year as a potential first-team All-American. Be on the lookout for the "star treatment" and see how much, if any, he is actually penalized, be it officially or in the media.

Holloway penalty announced: From this time forward he has to refer to himself as a gangster rather than the colloquiol gangsta. A harsh penalty indeed. They had considered requiring him to refer to himself as a "thug" but decided that was too severe.

[davekay1971]

Please don't tell me that you've forgotten about Andre Buckner's shove of ewe in sea head coach Matt Doherty. If that happened today I think Andre might face a suspension... Andre wasn't happy about Dohery coming over to our bench.

In Andre's defense, he may have been afraid Doh was coming over to ask Coach K for a job. That would certainly justify a firm, even physical, response. I think Andre, and all of us who love Duke, were much happier with Doherty comfortably positioned on UNC's bench.

[_Gary]

Wow Bob. That is even worse. Holloway helped start the brawl, then even after he had time to cool off, he went into the presser with terrible comments, and now having even more time to cool off, calm down, and reflect, he is not only not remorseful, but proud of the brawl. That's pretty sad to be honest.

Agreed. I'm sorry, but I really disagree with the "those are just words" or "he's really a good kid at heart" comments. He looked to be a huge part of the problem on the court and he simply carried it off the court too. In my book that does not make him a "good kid."

[AtlBluRew]

Yancy Gates, Octavius Ellis and Cheikh Mbodj will each be suspended for a six games and Ge’Lawn Guyn for one game.

No word yet from Xavier.

Wow, that's disappointing after hearing Cronin's comments. It does seem to me that Xavier players provoked the fight, but the sucker punch (Gates -- to a player that didn't seem to be starting the trouble) and the stomp (Mbodj, to the same player) seem worthy of at least 10 game suspensions to seem meaningful. 6 games is not even 20% of the season.

[uh_no]

Wow, that's disappointing after hearing Cronin's comments. It does seem to me that Xavier players provoked the fight, but the sucker punch (Gates -- to a player that didn't seem to be starting the trouble) and the stomp (Mbodj, to the same player) seem worthy of at least 10 game suspensions to seem meaningful. 6 games is not even 20% of the season.

I didn't see the article, but those were self imposed? correct? in which case the big east could certainly impose a suspension for part of the big east season on top of it.

[allenmurray]

Wow, that's disappointing after hearing Cronin's comments. It does seem to me that Xavier players provoked the fight, but the sucker punch (Gates -- to a player that didn't seem to be starting the trouble) and the stomp (Mbodj, to the same player) seem worthy of at least 10 game suspensions to seem meaningful. 6 games is not even 20% of the season.

I agree - after hearing Cronin's comments I figured those two would be off the team for the rest of the season.

[1 24 90]

Yancy Gates, Octavius Ellis and Cheikh Mbodj will each be suspended for a six games and Ge’Lawn Guyn for one game.

No word yet from Xavier.

So they will miss the following games :

Wright St.
Radford
Arkansas Pine Bluff
Chicago St.
Oklahoma
Pitt

Really tough penalty UC (sarcasm font needed)

[KenTankerous]

Six Games. Well, that should achieve exactly what Cronin said he wanted - teach these young men exactly what UC is all about. A cowardly punch that would get you shot on any of the playgrounds in Over-the-Rhine gets you six weeks once you get up the hill.

I am disappointed but far from surprised. I lived in Cincy for ten years, tending bar for a lot of UC athletes and coaching staff. They'd have to class-up to get to thug. At least the admin at UC is consistent.

[Verga3]

Cronin...what a windbag. Gutless enablers at UC. Will he think differently after assault charges are filed? Sad.

[Verga3]

http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/121111aaa.html?CFID=8320954&CFTOKEN=e3287ff396ae8148-D6D5E835-5056-B43F-61AA94EF3596A209

[Bluedog]

http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/121111aaa.html?CFID=8320954&CFTOKEN=e3287ff396ae8148-D6D5E835-5056-B43F-61AA94EF3596A209

Interesting...Decided by Xavier and Atlantic 10 jointly apparently.

Wells - three games (will have to sit out four since he was technically kicked out of the game for fighting, which carries additional one game)
Amos - four games
Lyons - two games
Holloway - one game

Seems pretty weak. Upcoming Xavier schedule: Oral Roberts, Long Beach St, Gonzaga, LaSalle.

Xavier AD Bobinski: "we regret the poorly-chosen words our student-athletes used in the post-game press conference"

[Newton_14]

http://www.goxavier.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/121111aaa.html?CFID=8320954&CFTOKEN=e3287ff396ae8148-D6D5E835-5056-B43F-61AA94EF3596A209

That is so weak, as were the Cincy suspensions. Holloway got one game. One. That adminstration and the two conferences, just sent a very loud and clear message to the players. "Just boys being boys, and nothing too serious". Which means they won't think twice about talking smack or being involved in another incident like this down the road.

[Newton_14]

Six Games. Well, that should achieve exactly what Cronin said he wanted - teach these young men exactly what UC is all about. A cowardly punch that would get you shot on any of the playgrounds in Over-the-Rhine gets you six weeks once you get up the hill.

I am disappointed but far from surprised. I lived in Cincy for ten years, tending bar for a lot of UC athletes and coaching staff. They'd have to class-up to get to thug. At least the admin at UC is consistent.

Cronin was either blowing smoke or the President and the AD talked him down on the punishment. Either way, the handling of this was poor. The kid that threw the punch should have been gone for the year. It would be different if he had just been fouled flagrantly or dangerously on the court, and responded with a punch. Being on the bench listening to smack talk and sucker punching a kid that wasn't even looking at him is another thing entirely. Plus he threw another punch and then tried to fight another kid.
Add all that up, and how you get anything less than suspension for the year is beyond me.

[killerleft]

The blind-side puncher and the stomper definitely deserved some extra games just for the acts of championship-level cowardice... or are those acts just part of what passes for honorable self-defense these days amongst friendly gangstas and thugs?

It is always the cowards who must be accounted for in brawls.

[Bob Green]

Here is the ESPN commentary on the suspensions:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7341744/cincinnati-bearcats-suspend-four-players-brawl-xavier-musketeers

Holloway only getting one game is beyond ridiculous as it was his big mouth which started the fracus. Yancy Gates and Cheikh Mbodj should be gone for the year.

[Verga3]

The real cowards here are Coach Cronin, the CU AD and President Williams. Interesting to know how the CU Trustees weigh in with those guys...Unbelievable.

[Cajun Crazy]

Here's a sane idea, even for a Cajun Crazy.
As a way to prevent more of these disgusting, potentially dangerous brawls, here's an idea: the basketball powers-that-be could devise what I might call a "playing with fire" rule. They could come up with a distinctive buzzer sound, similar to a fire drill, that means "leave the court immediately." It could work something like this: five seconds after the buzzer sounds, any player not on the team bench, or headed that way, receives an automatic five-game suspension, with no exceptions unless a player is injured and unable to leave the court. Then the buzzer could ring five seconds after that, and any player still left on the court after that would get an automatic ten-game suspension. After that, the penalities would grow more severe with each subsequent buzzer sound. The game tapes would make this easy to review, and anyone involved in more serious violations could still be assessed more severe penalties.
Such a rule could come in handy for other emergencies, and teams could be required to practice the drill so that every player knows that if they don't leave the court, they're "playing with fire."

[Newton_14]

Here is the ESPN commentary on the suspensions:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7341744/cincinnati-bearcats-suspend-four-players-brawl-xavier-musketeers

Holloway only getting one game is beyond ridiculous as it was his big mouth which started the fracus. Yancy Gates and Cheikh Mbodj should be gone for the year.

Below are Cronin's comments. I get the idea he did not like the penalties. If he is being genuine (And I will give him the benefit of the doubt here), then good for him. Time will tell.


"Before any of them put a uniform back on they will apologize and that's just the first step before putting the uniform back on," Cronin told ESPN.com Sunday. "Just because the press release says what it says that doesn't mean they're all back. They're going to sit in front of a camera and say how sorry they are and how grateful they are for getting a second chance.


"If I don't believe it then they won't be on the team -- and if they don't demonstrate that they won't ever put on a jersey again -- period," Cronin said. "They're going to sit in front of a camera and say it. I can tell the difference as to how genuine they are. The university issued the suspensions and I supported it. But for me it's different. I have the autonomy to not let anybody back on the team

[Verga3]

Sounds like an interesting man. http://www.uc.edu/president/biography.html

Based on Cronin's comments, it appears that the character of the suspensions were not his idea. You are right Newton_14, time will tell. I predict the suspensions will be applied as stated, unless assault & battery charges are filed.

[magjayran]

As long as we're all cool with calling Art Heyman a bad kid and acknowledging that '61 brawl as even worse than this one then I have no problem with this conversation. If anyone is even thinking about making excuses for Heyman and Larry Brown, shame on you.

For the record I think that such fights should absolutely not be tolerated by anyone but are absolutely very entertaining. I also think it's funny in interviews when Art Heyman talks about knocking out Larry Brown.

[hurley1]

Thankfully K doesn't recruit that type of kid to Duke. It is great when those kids get a chance to leave that life behind and make something of themselves but that kind of mentality shouldn't fly in college sports or on a college campus. Coaches need to have better control over there players.

The problem is they don't leave the bad life behind, they bring it with them, as you saw yesterday.............

[hurley1]

Below is the link to the video and presser. I would encourage all to watch the entire thing. This was really bad, and I was saddened by the comments of the Xavier players after the game, even though the Cincy kids I thought were more at fault during the brawl. I was, however, impressed by Cincy Coach, Cronin's comments after the game. If he is true to his word, a couple of Cincy kids may have just played their last game.

Just a really bad situation. The Xavier center got suckered punched right in the side of the head in the eye area, then got kicked/stomped after he fell to the ground from the punch.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7339184/cincinnati-bearcats-coach-embarrassed-brawl-xavier-musketeers

the cincy coach was just providing lip service, as i figured he would.........six games is the worst anyone got.......

[Ping Lin]

Six games, with only one Big East game being missed. Disgraceful. Yates should have gotten indefinite suspension, with its release only contingent on proper behavior and contrition, at a minimum.

DBR, you may want to update your Cronin presser link with this update -- follow up the fact that his bark didn't bite.

[Devilsfan]

Those poor unfortunate student athletes. They must be taking a forensic course because they sure know about body bags. The pressure of their upcoming finals must have gotten to them. Seriously I think the heads of the respective universities need to expel the players involved or fire the coaches or both IMO.

[Bluedog]

the cincy coach was just providing lip service, as i figured he would.........six games is the worst anyone got.......


DBR, you may want to update your Cronin presser link with this update -- follow up the fact that his bark didn't bite.

To be fair, Cronin says that he may make the suspensions longer, depending on the circumstances:

"The university issued the suspensions and I supported it. But for me it's different. I have the autonomy to not let anybody back on the team."
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7341744/cincinnati-bearcats-suspend-four-players-brawl-xavier-musketeers

So, perhaps it's still TBD, but I'd think it's likely the 6-game suspensions will be the end of it. Cronin: "They're going to sit in front of a camera and say how sorry they are and how grateful they are for getting a second chance. If I don't believe it then they won't be on the team -- and if they don't demonstrate that they won't ever put on a jersey again -- period."

[Verga3]

Those poor unfortunate student athletes. They must be taking a forensic course because they sure know about body bags. The pressure of their upcoming finals must have gotten to them. Seriously I think the heads of the respective universities need to expel the players involved or fire the coaches or both IMO.

You may be correct about the forensics course. Gates (SR) is a Criminal Justice major, while Guyn and Ellis (both FR) have declared Criminal Justice as their potential major in their CU roster bios. For real...

[Verga3]

To be fair, Cronin says that he may make the suspensions longer, depending on the circumstances:

"The university issued the suspensions and I supported it. But for me it's different. I have the autonomy to not let anybody back on the team."
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7341744/cincinnati-bearcats-suspend-four-players-brawl-xavier-musketeers

So, perhaps it's still TBD, but I'd think it's likely the 6-game suspensions will be the end of it. Cronin: "They're going to sit in front of a camera and say how sorry they are and how grateful they are for getting a second chance. If I don't believe it then they won't be on the team -- and if they don't demonstrate that they won't ever put on a jersey again -- period."

Cronin is a blowhard. Prove me wrong. He is doing Gates, Mbodj and his University a huge disservice by allowing them to continue playing this year. Tough love out of fashion today? Come on Coach, do the right thing.

[Newton_14]

Cronin is a blowhard. Prove me wrong. He is doing Gates, Mbodj and his University a huge disservice by allowing them to continue playing this year. Tough love out of fashion today? Come on Coach, do the right thing.

This is a case for me, where I am hoping you are wrong, but fearing you are right. I don't know much about Cronin, and as I stated earlier, he seemed to be very genuine yesterday during the presser, and really in his comments today in the linked article above. However, if he does not extend any of the suspensions, I will be inclined to believe you are 100% correct, and he is either a simple blowhard, or even though the players truly disgusted him yesterday, he values winning games more than protecting integrity.

[Mike Corey]

Discipline matters.

Except at Cincinnati and Xavier.

Discipline the coaches, too. And the officials who let the chirping go on way too long prior to escalation, despite the ululations (h/t, Throaty) of the coaches.

More disappointing than the fight were the pugilistic comments afterward.

Will lessons be culled from the mistakes of that night?

Let's hope so.

[davekay1971]

On the DBR main page recap of the Xavier-Cincy fallout, DBR mentions "Despite the horrific scars the Catholic priesthood has inflicted on the church...". It's thrown out as part of a larger statement, but it's careless wording. The priesthood is made up of thousands upon thousands of individuals, and many of those individuals have done horrible things (while many more have been positive forces in the world), and the priesthood, as an institution (which is really the Church itself) has made decisions over it's long history which have been horrible (and many decisions that have been positive).

I love this website, love the main page write-ups, but that wording struck me as very careless and potentially (I am sure unintentionally) offensive to Catholic readers. Just a friendly heads-up to the writer. No mea culpa needed. Indulgences, of course, are welcome and may be sent directly to me...


Disclaimer: I'm a parishioner, not a member of the priesthood, so I can safely accept indulgences without blemishing the priesthood or the church, but without ordained access to the Holy Batphone, I can't guarantee a successful indulgence. Buyer beware.

[Wildcat]

When listening to the presser of the Xavier players; please consider these players' social and geographical context. This is not the South; these are for the most part inner-city kids playing a game they've loved as a way to make their lives better. For some its their only way out. Please realize that their insertion of inappropriate language, tact, slang colloquialisms of their native environment and gangsterisms is simply a mode of communication different from that of mainstream society. I disdain that mentality with a passion. I also realize that coaches, athletic programs, and other big-time "pimps" need to do a better job at teaching socialization, interviewing skills, and culture shifts/code-switching. These kids rake in millions of dollars for these institutions; if the coaches and athletic programs really cared for these kids' wholistic education; they would teach/stress/emphasize something else besides how to play defense! I'm not that surprised. Sports is a microcosym of the world we live in. You can see behavior like this in our public school system. These situations are circumstancial. We only see the surface. Judging from the outside like most of us are: i would suspend "sucker-punch" and the coach for maybe 5 ball games. That will hold, not only the players involved accountable; but the coach as well. Ofcourse our coach doesn't recruit this type of kid; so we have nothing to worry about.

[OldPhiKap]

When listening to the presser of the Xavier players; please consider these players' social and geographical context. This is not the South; these are for the most part inner-city kids playing a game they've loved as a way to make their lives better. For some its their only way out. Please realize that their insertion of inappropriate language, tact, slang colloquialisms of their native environment and gangsterisms is simply a mode of communication different from that of mainstream society. I disdain that mentality with a passion. I also realize that coaches, athletic programs, and other big-time "pimps" need to do a better job at teaching socialization, interviewing skills, and culture shifts/code-switching. These kids rake in millions of dollars for these institutions; if the coaches and athletic programs really cared for these kids' wholistic education; they would teach/stress/emphasize something else besides how to play defense! I'm not that surprised. Sports is a microcosym of the world we live in. You can see behavior like this in our public school system. These situations are circumstancial. We only see the surface. Judging from the outside like most of us are: i would suspend "sucker-punch" and the coach for maybe 5 ball games. That will hold, not only the players involved accountable; but the coach as well. Ofcourse our coach doesn't recruit this type of kid; so we have nothing to worry about.

I'm sure the Jesuits at Xavier are jiggy with it.

[RockyMtDevil]

On the DBR main page recap of the Xavier-Cincy fallout, DBR mentions "Despite the horrific scars the Catholic priesthood has inflicted on the church...". It's thrown out as part of a larger statement, but it's careless wording. The priesthood is made up of thousands upon thousands of individuals, and many of those individuals have done horrible things (while many more have been positive forces in the world), and the priesthood, as an institution (which is really the Church itself) has made decisions over it's long history which have been horrible (and many decisions that have been positive).SIZE]

C'mon DBR, cheap shots toward the Catholic Church have no place here. This is beyond careless. Please edit your comments. Where are the moderators when needed, this is inflaming and insensitive. You are calling out the Jesuits for not doing the right thing, you do the right thing with this small matter please.

[hurleyfor3]

Please edit your comments. Where are the moderators when needed, this is inflaming and insensitive.

Moderators do not control the content of the front page.

[Gozza]

Thanks for posting this, both for the context of how great this site is, and for how this bothered you. Like you, I'm a Catholic, and a long time reader of this site. I realized fairly quickly that this was probably an unintentional error, but was genuinely angry for about a minute.

For Catholics, "The Priesthood" is an office instituted (or, at least, re-instituted from the Levite priesthood) by Christ in the Last Supper. It is a gift from God, and an integral part in the delivery of many divine graces (the Liturgy, Eucharist, forgiveness via Reconciliation, etc.). It has not, and cannot, commit sins or create scars. The scars are the result of the failings of Priests--the failings of individual men, not the Priesthood itself.

In a world that looks askew at the idea of chastity, obedience, and self-denial, many people have an axe to grind with the priesthood as an institution. And there's a lot of anti-clerical stuff out there on the interwebs. I thought, briefly, that this is where DBR was going. But as I've been reading this site for over decade, I'm going to guess that was not DBR's intent.


On the DBR main page recap of the Xavier-Cincy fallout, DBR mentions "Despite the horrific scars the Catholic priesthood has inflicted on the church...". It's thrown out as part of a larger statement, but it's careless wording. The priesthood is made up of thousands upon thousands of individuals, and many of those individuals have done horrible things (while many more have been positive forces in the world), and the priesthood, as an institution (which is really the Church itself) has made decisions over it's long history which have been horrible (and many decisions that have been positive).

I love this website, love the main page write-ups, but that wording struck me as very careless and potentially (I am sure unintentionally) offensive to Catholic readers. Just a friendly heads-up to the writer. No mea culpa needed. Indulgences, of course, are welcome and may be sent directly to me...


Disclaimer: I'm a parishioner, not a member of the priesthood, so I can safely accept indulgences without blemishing the priesthood or the church, but without ordained access to the Holy Batphone, I can't guarantee a successful indulgence. Buyer beware.

[oldnavy]

When listening to the presser of the Xavier players; please consider these players' social and geographical context. This is not the South; these are for the most part inner-city kids playing a game they've loved as a way to make their lives better. For some its their only way out. Please realize that their insertion of inappropriate language, tact, slang colloquialisms of their native environment and gangsterisms is simply a mode of communication different from that of mainstream society. I disdain that mentality with a passion. I also realize that coaches, athletic programs, and other big-time "pimps" need to do a better job at teaching socialization, interviewing skills, and culture shifts/code-switching. These kids rake in millions of dollars for these institutions; if the coaches and athletic programs really cared for these kids' wholistic education; they would teach/stress/emphasize something else besides how to play defense! I'm not that surprised. Sports is a microcosym of the world we live in. You can see behavior like this in our public school system. These situations are circumstancial. We only see the surface. Judging from the outside like most of us are: i would suspend "sucker-punch" and the coach for maybe 5 ball games. That will hold, not only the players involved accountable; but the coach as well. Ofcourse our coach doesn't recruit this type of kid; so we have nothing to worry about.

BS! There are many, many opportunities available in this country, inner-city, rural south, mid-western farming communities. There are thousands of examples of young men and women who have excelled in academia, medicine, business, etc... that come from inner-cites.

To say that these kids are limited to one single opition, basketball (or any sport), is quite frankly false and advances sterotypes. Your statement makes the assumption that they have no intellect, and no skill set other than athletic ability. Unless you know each of these individuals personally and have evalutated their capabilities outside of sports, it is very presumptuous to make a statement that this is the only thing that they can do...

It may be that they have chosen to use basketball to improve thier situation, but please don't make the assumption that they were denied other opportunites or have no other skills, especially in an attempt to excuse what amounts to criminal behavior.

[slower]

In a world that looks askew at the idea of chastity, obedience, and self-denial, many people have an axe to grind with the priesthood as an institution.

Only when this institution and its practitioners makes a tragic mockery of the above-stated principles.

[Bluedog]

When listening to the presser of the Xavier players; please consider these players' social and geographical context. This is not the South; these are for the most part inner-city kids playing a game they've loved as a way to make their lives better. For some its their only way out.

Tu Holloway (who made the "gangstas" comment) is from Hempstead, New York - a wealthy town on Long Island where the average family makes nearly $100k. The other Xavier player, Mark Lyons, who talked about the fight is from Schenectady, New York, a suburb of Albany and attended a fancy boarding school in New Hampshire...(Schenectady certainly has more economic diversity than Hempstead and 17% of families there are below the poverty line, but it's still not a rough inner city.)

[allenmurray]

Tu Holloway (who made the "gangstas" comment) is from Hempstead, New York - a wealthy town on Long Island where the average family makes nearly $100k. The other Xavier player, Mark Lyons, who talked about the fight is from Schenectady, New York, a suburb of Albany and attended a fancy boarding school in New Hampshire...(Schenectady certainly has more economic diversity than Hempstead and 17% of families there are below the poverty line, but it's still not a rough inner city.)

He wouldn't be the first person to claim "gangsta" status when in fact he came from a far different background, though that is suually a route taken by rappers to enhance their credibility, not by athletes.

[Wildcat]

Oldnavy; no matter how you slice it, it still boils down to context and culture. Those guys may have intellect and
other outlets for career success; but the majority of those players come from tough neighborhoods; or they're used to playing in those settings up north. I don't know them personally, nor can i be specific about each one individually. I was simply making a generalization that i feel is still "spot on." The "gangster" word in that moment to me meant: we aren't taking no crap, we are not going to be punked, we are tough guys. That's it.

It was a bad choice of words; but again look at the "context" in which he spoke. This may be surprising, apalling, awful, shocking or surprising but; this language happens all the time up north. I think it's city-talk. Just my opinion. But i concur; it's not good for a student-athlete to speak like this on television for all the world to hear.

[Verga3]

Cronin...what a windbag. Gutless enablers at UC. Will he think differently after assault charges are filed? Sad.

Just saw this.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/12/prosecutors-explore-possible-criminal-charges-for-uc-xavier/1

[uh_no]

Just saw this.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/12/prosecutors-explore-possible-criminal-charges-for-uc-xavier/1

good

even if you just bring them in for questioning...give them a taste of where that behavior will land them

[Duke71]

Tu Holloway (who made the "gangstas" comment) is from Hempstead, New York - a wealthy town on Long Island where the average family makes nearly $100k. The other Xavier player, Mark Lyons, who talked about the fight is from Schenectady, New York, a suburb of Albany and attended a fancy boarding school in New Hampshire...(Schenectady certainly has more economic diversity than Hempstead and 17% of families there are below the poverty line, but it's still not a rough inner city.)



Hi Bluedog:

Your assertion that Hempstead is a wealthy Long Island town is more than a bit misleading. It's very much a rough and tumble town in many neighborhoods and has been for more than 5 decades. Yes, there are some wealthy areas on the fringe that borders the upscale town of Garden City (their existence blatantly skew the town's economic stats), but the segregated projects have also been there for years and years.

:(For context, I was one of the very few BBallers on my Hempstead High BBall team that is today not in jail or 6 feet under. The only thing that saved me on more than one unprovoked, confrontational occasion walking the streets of Hempstead 40+ years ago, was someone recognizing me from the playgrounds and piping up to say, "Leave him alone. He be cool. He play ball." My parents continued to live in Hempstead for decades after I left home for Duke and I never returned to live there. I visited Hempstead often, though, to visit my folks and can attest that some of the areas in Hempstead are now even scarier and unsafer than when I lived there.

I don't know anything about Tu Holloway's particulars (I'm not sure how familiar you are personally, Bluedog, with the towns you write about), but basically quick Internet searches of stats can be invoked to tell disparately differing stories when claiming Hempstead as one's hometown. Hempstead definitely is no Atherton or Beverly Hills, CA or Ridgewood NJ, Greenwich, CT or Palm Beach, FL (i.e. a town without "bad" neighborhoods). I'd suggest exercising caution in jumping to conclusions based on Internet stats.

For what it's worth, Tu Holloway's presser - as much as it nauseated me to hear what he had to say after he supposedly had some time to cool down and think about what had just happened - led me to believe that he was actually more articulate than my average teammate at Hempstead High. The whole Xavier-Cincy brawl thing is sad to me....

[Bluedog]

Your assertion that Hempstead is a wealthy Long Island town is more than a bit misleading. It's very much a rough and tumble town in many neighborhoods and has been for more than 5 decades. Yes, there are some wealthy areas on the fringe that borders the upscale town of Garden City (their existence blatantly skew the town's economic stats), but the segregated projects have also been there for years and years.

Thanks for the correction. I'll admit I don't personally know of Hempstead; I simply looked up the income/demographic data and it seemed pretty wealthy/suburban to me based on that information. So, perhaps the fringe areas that skewed the economic stats misled me. My apologies for jumping to conclusions. You certainly know much more about the area than I do.

[mgtr]

Interesting to contrast the attitudes and language of the Cincy-Xavier players to the most recent Heisman trophy winner. Night and day.

[Wildcat]

Thanks for the comments and discussion about language, context and economic demographics on a basketball site. College basketball and football needs more of this kind of discussion. Fortunately, or unfortunatley, depending on how you look at it; we don't have to deal too much with players' inappropriate language during interviews. These are teachable moments for athletes as they move forward in their careers. Thanks for the feedbacks.

[Duke71]

Thanks for the comments and discussion about language, context and economic demographics on a basketball site. College basketball and football needs more of this kind of discussion. Fortunately, or unfortunatley, depending on how you look at it; we don't have to deal too much with players' inappropriate language during interviews. These are teachable moments for athletes as they move forward in their careers. Thanks for the feedbacks.

Hi Wildcat:

Agreed about the good dialogue. There's a lot of informed, smart, diverse people that actively participate here. I trolled this site almost daily for a decade before finally taking the trouble to register so that I could actually participate myself. Wish I had done that much, much sooner. Absolutely nothing like talking to a bunch of highly knowledgeable people about BBall (it's almost like being back in the dorm at Duke) because sometimes you learn a thing or two about non-BBall matters and even about yourself in the process.

Go Duke. Let's figure this FT thing out and create fear in our opponents that we might get to the FT line.:cool:

Remember, there's no good defense the opponents can throw at us at the FT stripe. Making a ridiculous majority of your FT's will rarely get you on ESPN's Sports Center Highlight Reel unless you're Dirk Nowitzki setting a playoff record by nailing 24 in a row in a NBA playoff game, but I've noticed over the years that it sure does help a gonzo amount in winning those all important championships at the college level in particular. Conversely, missing the crucial ones at the end of the game will help the other team steal a title that they shouldn't have had (e.g. without those repeated FT misses by University of Houston in 1983, no way does NCSU claw its way back into that game to win the NCAA championship on that dramatic buzzer-beater).

Getting back to the topic of this thread, if all those suspended Cincy and Xavier players use their unexpected free time practicing their FT's....it could make those teams more formidable in close game situations upon their return to their respective flocks. But I'm gonna go out on a limb here and bet that won't happen....;)

P.S. Wildcat, your earlier inner-city street talk comments were spot on. I straddled two-worlds growing up on Long Island. The best BBall games to be had were "in the hood", be it in my local Hempstead playgrounds or a train ride and a subway fare away in Harlem or the Bronx. The terminology and the meaning of the street vernacular was definitely different there than at my supper table each nite....it was one of those unalterable facts of life.:(

[oldnavy]

Oldnavy; no matter how you slice it, it still boils down to context and culture. Those guys may have intellect and
other outlets for career success; but the majority of those players come from tough neighborhoods; or they're used to playing in those settings up north. I don't know them personally, nor can i be specific about each one individually. I was simply making a generalization that i feel is still "spot on." The "gangster" word in that moment to me meant: we aren't taking no crap, we are not going to be punked, we are tough guys. That's it.

It was a bad choice of words; but again look at the "context" in which he spoke. This may be surprising, apalling, awful, shocking or surprising but; this language happens all the time up north. I think it's city-talk. Just my opinion. But i concur; it's not good for a student-athlete to speak like this on television for all the world to hear.

That was not what I took issue with. I take issue with the premise that sports are the only way out of the less than desirable circumstances these kids are born into. I think that is wrong.
The fight IMO was bad, you never want to see it, but I have actually seen worse in an all white Church League. I understand, the fight, tempers, etc… I think they should be punished and use this as a teaching moment for them.
My point is that to claim that sports are the only way out for these kids sells them short by assuming that they cannot use their brains plus hard work to improve their lot in life. I also think that it misrepresents the opportunities that are available for these kids and the hard work that public teachers, social workers, charity groups, etc, are doing to ensure that opportunities are available. Granted the struggle may be much more difficult, but the opportunities are there none the less.

I think that these kids need to know that there are more options than the NBA or life in a gang….
You may have not even meant it as it sounded and if not I apologize, but it is a bit of a touchy subject for me.

[SmartDevil]

Both the criminal process and quicker interim action by the schools should play themselves out fully. I assume the "suspensions" announced by the schools are suspensions from the team not from school But they should be suspensions (or more) from the school. And for definite periods not "interim" suspensions.

In fact, I think the worst offenders should perhaps be expelled as a result of the school judicial process if that's in line with each school's governing code of conduct and powers of the internal judicial system and the findings and conclusions of the hearing committee.

When I was Chair of the Duke Judicial Board, athletes had to face school action and not just be subject to the subjective whims of coaches and the athletic director who are more likely to dole out (and then truncate) a much lighter sanction. I presume it is still that way at Duke but at most other schools this seems to be overlooked today. I must also give Duke credit--in no case where a Duke athlete was facing judicial board action was any pressure experienced from coaches or the athletic director. It happens that I was also part of the football program and involved in the lacrosse program, two of the three teams whose members most often found themselves facing disciplinary action, and I think it speaks a lot about Duke's standards that nothing was ever said to me about going easy on athletes in those progams.

But, as we know, other schools are not Duke.

[allenmurray]

Both the criminal process and quicker interim action by the schools should play themselves out fully. I assume the "suspensions" announced by the schools are suspensions from the team not from school But they should be suspensions (or more) from the school. And for definite periods not "interim" suspensions.

In fact, I think the worst offenders should perhaps be expelled as a result of the school judicial process if that's in line with each school's governing code of conduct and powers of the internal judicial system and the findings and conclusions of the hearing committee.


Not sure I agree. If they were suspended from the team, say for the entire year, but allowed to continue attending class that would give them an opportunity to show they were intreested in education, not just basketball. If they took advantage of that oportunity they could re-establish their character and some real learning and self-reflection could take place. Suspend them from shcool and you've fixed the immediate problem (and helped your school'sself-image), but have you really done anything for the individual student-athelte? Unless you believe they are unredeemable, suspending them from the team, but not from school, offeres them an opportunity to show their committment to change.