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View Full Version : MBB: Duke vs. Colorado State Pre-Game Thread



Faustus
12-05-2011, 10:09 PM
Looks like I might have to begin this one, lacking another starter, even though I know precious little about Colorado State (I do recall seeing their home court on tv a few years back - an abomination in the shape of stylized mountain ram horns that engulfed the entire floor, looping around both foul circles. It's still etched on the back of my retinas). I don't even know if they're in the Mountain West or Big Sky now, the way the conferences bounce around now at the behest of football money. But they come into town Weds. evening. Last home game before the semester break. Much to be observed on the floor about any lessons learned from Ohio State. And no doubt more red-shirting speculation. Originally slated, according to DBR schedule, to be shown on the dreaded U, the main page now lists it as being aired Weds. on ESPN2, thanks, no doubt, to the NBA squabbles. Now I can watch it. Here's where we can talk about it, and getting a new winning streak started. Have at it, everyone. Happy Holidays too, while I'm at it. (And sorry I don't have $50M bequests to send to Duke - mine was just a teensy bit smaller this year.)

Newton_14
12-05-2011, 10:52 PM
Thanks Faustus. I guess the first item of interest is who will the 5 starters be Wed Night. An article earlier this week on CBSsports suggested that Quinn may start at the point which means either Andre or Seth come off the bench.

2nd point of interest for me is what new wrinkles have been put in during the practice time. The guys would have had a full week of regular practices for the first time in quite awhile. Coach Capel said earlier today that this whole month would be about adjustments to try and improve in several areas, as well as a time for each guy to improve as an individual player. He said the practices have been "spirited" with guys "getting after each other hard".


Can't wait to see how the guys look coming off a tough loss and a tough week of practice!

Olympic Fan
12-06-2011, 12:40 AM
Don't know a lot about the Rams, except they have two starters back off a 19-13 team. They played in the NIT, but lost to Fordham in the first round. They were picked fourth in the Mountain West preseason.

They are off to a 5-3 start with a 12-point loss at Stanford and a one-point homecourt win over Colorado being their most significant games so far.

They have some good guards. Their leading scorer is 6-3 junior Wes Eikmeier (17.5 ppg). But their best all-around player is probably 6-2 junior Dorien Green, who is averaging 11.4 ppg, while hitting 51.7 percent from three-point range. He also leads the team in assists, but with less than three a game.

The Rams have a couple of 7-footers, but I don't think they play a lot. Their top rebounder is 6-5 Pierce Hornung (7.3 rpg.).

They are coached by Tim Miles, a 1989 graduate of the University of Mary ... no, not William & Mary or Maryland or St. Mary's ... the U of Mary is a school in Bismark, North Dakota.

DukieTiger
12-06-2011, 02:02 AM
Thanks Faustus. I guess the first item of interest is who will the 5 starters be Wed Night. An article earlier this week on CBSsports suggested that Quinn may start at the point which means either Andre or Seth come off the bench.


Making a case for Quinn to start in place of Andre (at least for a game) I will point to KenPom's player efficiency ratings, where Andre's usage (indicative of the level of a player's offensive impact) is pretty darn low. His efficiency is high, as are his shooting percentages, but Andre has been pretty exclusively a spot-up shooter. Obviously, Quinn hasn't played as much and perhaps a good portion of his minutes have been garbage time minutes, but Quinn's assist rate leads the team by a significant margin, and his turnover rate is better than anyone's except Andre- and when you're a catch-and-shoot guy, you're not prone to turn the ball over much. Again, Quinn hasn't necessarily played major minutes, but his usage is over 20% while he is in, so the relatively low turnover rate is a significant thing for me, at least. Furthermore, Quinn rebounds at a higher rate than Dre- both offensively and defensively, gets steals more than twice as often, and has gone to the line more in less than a third of the minutes.

Also of note, Dre's usage % is actually down from last year's, while Seth's, Mason's, Ryan's, and even Miles' usage rates are significantly up- as you would expect to happen with your upperclassmen when losing guys like Nolan and Kyle. I'd love to see Dre find a way to more consistently impact the game apart from the jump shot, and for Miles to find a way to stay on the floor more because he is our best offensive rebounder (ok to be fair, statistically Josh Hairston is, and I'd love to see him carve out a more consistent role along those lines) and is doing a good job drawing fouls/getting to the line. I will be interested to see what kind of roles Dre, Miles and Josh to a lesser extent develop over the next month. I think all three guys are capable of giving more.

Finally, Mike Gbinije is going to have trouble earning more time if he keeps turning the ball over on almost half of his possessions! That's almost in Lance Thomas-as-freshman territory.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke

mgtr
12-06-2011, 09:20 AM
When will we get further info on our "missing player," Mr. Murphy? He started the first game and was ineffective, and seemed to be banished to never-never land. Then he had an injury (concussion, maybe) and hasn't been back. If we don't seem him on the floor tomorrow night, then I guess a) he hasn't gotten it on in practice, or b) he is still injured, or c) well, I don't have a c. I was excited to see him play in the China games, but since then -- phfittt!

Regardless, I would expect to see our guys play pretty hard tomorrow night, particularly on defense. On offense, I don't know what new wrinkles we might see, but the keys are really to protect the ball, execute, and rebound. I'm ready to start erasing memories of the last game!

COYS
12-06-2011, 10:40 AM
Making a case for Quinn to start in place of Andre (at least for a game) I will point to KenPom's player efficiency ratings, where Andre's usage (indicative of the level of a player's offensive impact) is pretty darn low. His efficiency is high, as are his shooting percentages, but Andre has been pretty exclusively a spot-up shooter. Obviously, Quinn hasn't played as much and perhaps a good portion of his minutes have been garbage time minutes, but Quinn's assist rate leads the team by a significant margin, and his turnover rate is better than anyone's except Andre- and when you're a catch-and-shoot guy, you're not prone to turn the ball over much. Again, Quinn hasn't necessarily played major minutes, but his usage is over 20% while he is in, so the relatively low turnover rate is a significant thing for me, at least. Furthermore, Quinn rebounds at a higher rate than Dre- both offensively and defensively, gets steals more than twice as often, and has gone to the line more in less than a third of the minutes.

Also of note, Dre's usage % is actually down from last year's, while Seth's, Mason's, Ryan's, and even Miles' usage rates are significantly up- as you would expect to happen with your upperclassmen when losing guys like Nolan and Kyle. I'd love to see Dre find a way to more consistently impact the game apart from the jump shot, and for Miles to find a way to stay on the floor more because he is our best offensive rebounder (ok to be fair, statistically Josh Hairston is, and I'd love to see him carve out a more consistent role along those lines) and is doing a good job drawing fouls/getting to the line. I will be interested to see what kind of roles Dre, Miles and Josh to a lesser extent develop over the next month. I think all three guys are capable of giving more.

Finally, Mike Gbinije is going to have trouble earning more time if he keeps turning the ball over on almost half of his possessions! That's almost in Lance Thomas-as-freshman territory.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke

I think the real question regarding Quinn is defense. Andre is not an all world defender, but he does have size and strength that Austin, Seth, and Quinn lack. So far his strength and leaping ability have not translated into much rebounding (If there's one thing we definitely have not replaced from last year, it's Kyle's rebounding at the 3) or thefts, but the raw physical ability is still there. Additionally, he's still clearly a potent threat on the offensive end and, as Kedsy as pointed out numerous times, is effective on offense even when he's not scoring simply because a defender must be draped all over him at all times or risk giving up a barrage of threes (sometimes, having a defender on him makes no difference: see Michigan State game). Also, recall that the team has some excellent wins with Andre in the lineup playing major minutes. This is not to say that Andre is a perfect player. Far from it. It's obvious he's got plenty of areas in which he can improve. It is also frustrating for us as fans to see his development include so many peaks and valleys rather than being a linear (or even hyperbolic) progression upward. However, the staff will definitely have to weigh more than just offensive efficiency when deciding how to proceed with the lineup from here on out.

That being said, I think Quinn has done a great job this season carving out a roll, albeit small, despite having to sit out the entire summer recovering from his knee injury. He has an extra gear that no one else on the team has and is developing his ability to run the team. It is obvious what K and the staff saw in Quinn when they were recruiting him and I look forward to seeing what he can do as he settles in. Whether it be this year or next year, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for Quinn to become quite the player.

Neals384
12-06-2011, 12:16 PM
The Rams have a couple of 7-footers, but I don't think they play a lot. Their top rebounder is 6-5 Pierce Hornung (7.3 rpg.).

7' Soph Trevor Williams is averaging 8 minutes. 6'10" frosh Chad Calcaterra is averaging 4 minutes in only two games played. No one else is over 6'6".

meloveduke
12-06-2011, 12:48 PM
I think the real question regarding Quinn is defense. Andre is not an all world defender, but he does have size and strength that Austin, Seth, and Quinn lack. So far his strength and leaping ability have not translated into much rebounding (If there's one thing we definitely have not replaced from last year, it's Kyle's rebounding at the 3) or thefts, but the raw physical ability is still there. Additionally, he's still clearly a potent threat on the offensive end and, as Kedsy as pointed out numerous times, is effective on offense even when he's not scoring simply because a defender must be draped all over him at all times or risk giving up a barrage of threes (sometimes, having a defender on him makes no difference: see Michigan State game). Also, recall that the team has some excellent wins with Andre in the lineup playing major minutes. This is not to say that Andre is a perfect player. Far from it. It's obvious he's got plenty of areas in which he can improve. It is also frustrating for us as fans to see his development include so many peaks and valleys rather than being a linear (or even hyperbolic) progression upward. However, the staff will definitely have to weigh more than just offensive efficiency when deciding how to proceed with the lineup from here on out.

That being said, I think Quinn has done a great job this season carving out a roll, albeit small, despite having to sit out the entire summer recovering from his knee injury. He has an extra gear that no one else on the team has and is developing his ability to run the team. It is obvious what K and the staff saw in Quinn when they were recruiting him and I look forward to seeing what he can do as he settles in. Whether it be this year or next year, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for Quinn to become quite the player.

I dont know what games you have seen, but the ones I have seen Quinn is a better defender then Dre. He is not as big so he cant "replace" Dre on defence, but non-the-less he is a better defender. When he starts (I said it months ago and I still say it), Rivers can replace Dre. Both 6'4 and Rivers is about the same on defence and will only get better. I never thought Dre would do good at the 3, he is more a 2. I know, I know we dont have 1, 2, 3.... persay, but fact is on defence we defend the 1,2,3.... We need Muphy on defence for those 6'6-6'8 3's, I really think thats where we miss Singler the most. I just dont see Dre stepping up to stop these guys. Lets face it, if he stays in front of them (and thats a big if) then all they have to do is post him. Being that he is only 6'4 it turns into a mismatch. Dre is a good 6th man and I really think that will bring the dog out in him if he plays the 6th man role......

hustleplays
12-07-2011, 01:01 AM
I dont know what games you have seen, but the ones I have seen Quinn is a better defender then Dre. He is not as big so he cant "replace" Dre on defence, but non-the-less he is a better defender. When he starts (I said it months ago and I still say it), Rivers can replace Dre. Both 6'4 and Rivers is about the same on defence and will only get better. I never thought Dre would do good at the 3, he is more a 2. I know, I know we dont have 1, 2, 3.... persay, but fact is on defence we defend the 1,2,3.... We need Muphy on defence for those 6'6-6'8 3's, I really think thats where we miss Singler the most. I just dont see Dre stepping up to stop these guys. Lets face it, if he stays in front of them (and thats a big if) then all they have to do is post him. Being that he is only 6'4 it turns into a mismatch. Dre is a good 6th man and I really think that will bring the dog out in him if he plays the 6th man role......

While our offensive efficiency is much better than our defensive efficiency, at this point of the season, that difference isn't dispositive. Most teams that we will play against this season will continue to get better, and we must improve more than some. We are striving to be national champions, right? We will not achieve that with Seth running the point. We need to have the players on the court, come March, that put us in the best spot to win -- against the very best teams. Whatever arguable difference there is now regarding who is the better defensive player, there is no question as to who is the potentially greatest difference maker offensively, and that is Quinn. Our current level of offensive proficiency won't cut it as the season progresses. Seth is a great 2 guard, and Austin will thrive at three. Will he be challenged on defense at the 3? Sure, sometimes, but he more than makes up for it at the offensive end, and it's clear to me that he has the talent and drive to become a great defender. He is too competitive to be labelled as a liability on defense.

Mason and Ryan need to start. Dre has not earned a starting spot. Doing the math, Quinn will be our starter PG as the season progresses. Maybe Tyler will start right away, given his experience. But this will be a transition period. With Quinn, we can become a true contender. The sooner we solidify our team around Quinn the better we will be come spring.

Oriole Way
12-07-2011, 04:06 AM
While our offensive efficiency is much better than our defensive efficiency, at this point of the season, that difference isn't dispositive. Most teams that we will play against this season will continue to get better, and we must improve more than some. We are striving to be national champions, right? We will not achieve that with Seth running the point. We need to have the players on the court, come March, that put us in the best spot to win -- against the very best teams. Whatever arguable difference there is now regarding who is the better defensive player, there is no question as to who is the potentially greatest difference maker offensively, and that is Quinn. Our current level of offensive proficiency won't cut it as the season progresses. Seth is a great 2 guard, and Austin will thrive at three. Will he be challenged on defense at the 3? Sure, sometimes, but he more than makes up for it at the offensive end, and it's clear to me that he has the talent and drive to become a great defender. He is too competitive to be labelled as a liability on defense.

Mason and Ryan need to start. Dre has not earned a starting spot. Doing the math, Quinn will be our starter PG as the season progresses. Maybe Tyler will start right away, given his experience. But this will be a transition period. With Quinn, we can become a true contender. The sooner we solidify our team around Quinn the better we will be come spring.

I strongly agree with you here; I have been advocating starting Quinn at PG for a while. However, I'm not sure K starts him just yet (as you mentioned, it might not be immediate). I do expect Cook to finally get 15+ minutes tonight, which would essentially be doubling his season average to this point.

Defense is this team's major problem, but our offense also needs to be improved, and it will be easier to address some of our offensive problems - negative assist-to-turnover-ratio, few fast break opportunities, lack of opportunities resulting from penetration aside from Rivers - by allowing Cook to run the offense as the team's best pure passer.

This team's major flaw is a lack of lateral defensive quickness on the perimeter (and really up and down the entire roster), but it's going to be difficult to drastically improve our defensive efficacy given that Duke's roster is fairly limited from an athletic standpoint. Giving Gbinije and Murphy (if he's not ultimately red-shirted) more minutes in an effort to determine if we have possible alternatives at the 3 spot/wing from a defensive standpoint will be part of that, but evaluating them and getting them more experience will be a very gradual process. Since improving the defense will be a much more difficult and long-term proposition, I believe it will be easier and more immediate to address the offensive problems by making lineup changes. The primary change will be installing Cook at PG and making him a major part of the rotation.

The big issue offensively is the lack of a point guard and the fact our current starting backcourt consists of two combo guards who really don't have the skillsets to consistently set up their teammates and run the offense. Both players are talented scorers, and both have the ability to bring the ball up the floor and initiate the offense regularly, but asking either of them to be the primary ball-handler is not only asking them to function outside their comfort zone, but it's also mitigating their strengths as combo guards. Both Curry and Rivers should ideally spend more time off the ball than on the ball (bringing the ball up the floor and initiating the offense in the half court). Even though Rivers is the kind of player who will be heavily featured in the offense (along the lines of Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant to use NBA comps) and who will handle the ball extensively in the offense even with a pure PG as part of the starting 5, using him as a PG or lead guard who brings the ball up the court, initiates the offense, and must look to set up teammates will make Rivers less effective and will make Duke's offense less dynamic and more predictable.

Needless to say, I will be watching tonight's game with great interest to see how Cook responds to what will likely (and hopefully) be a solid increase in minutes. I hope he's given a chance to play through his mistakes to see how he responds to adversity, and to also get him more comfortable with running the team.

Saratoga2
12-07-2011, 07:38 AM
I strongly agree with you here; I have been advocating starting Quinn at PG for a while. However, I'm not sure K starts him just yet (as you mentioned, it might not be immediate). I do expect Cook to finally get 15+ minutes tonight, which would essentially be doubling his season average to this point.

Defense is this team's major problem, but our offense also needs to be improved, and it will be easier to address some of our offensive problems - negative assist-to-turnover-ratio, few fast break opportunities, lack of opportunities resulting from penetration aside from Rivers - by allowing Cook to run the offense as the team's best pure passer.

This team's major flaw is a lack of lateral defensive quickness on the perimeter (and really up and down the entire roster), but it's going to be difficult to drastically improve our defensive efficacy given that Duke's roster is fairly limited from an athletic standpoint. Giving Gbinije and Murphy (if he's not ultimately red-shirted) more minutes in an effort to determine if we have possible alternatives at the 3 spot/wing from a defensive standpoint will be part of that, but evaluating them and getting them more experience will be a very gradual process. Since improving the defense will be a much more difficult and long-term proposition, I believe it will be easier and more immediate to address the offensive problems by making lineup changes. The primary change will be installing Cook at PG and making him a major part of the rotation.

The big issue offensively is the lack of a point guard and the fact our current starting backcourt consists of two combo guards who really don't have the skillsets to consistently set up their teammates and run the offense. Both players are talented scorers, and both have the ability to bring the ball up the floor and initiate the offense regularly, but asking either of them to be the primary ball-handler is not only asking them to function outside their comfort zone, but it's also mitigating their strengths as combo guards. Both Curry and Rivers should ideally spend more time off the ball than on the ball (bringing the ball up the floor and initiating the offense in the half court). Even though Rivers is the kind of player who will be heavily featured in the offense (along the lines of Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant to use NBA comps) and who wilave to hal handle the ball extensively in the offense even with a pure PG as part of the starting 5, using him as a PG or lead guard who brings the ball up the court, initiates the offense, and must look to set up teammates will make Rivers less effective and will make Duke's offense less dynamic and more predictable.

Needless to say, I will be watching tonight's game with great interest to see how Cook responds to what will likely (and hopefully) be a solid increase in minutes. I hope he's given a chance to play through his mistakes to see how he responds to adversity, and to also get him more comfortable with running the team.

I agree with much of what you say, however, I would be concerned with putting Rivers at the 3 and asking him to guard small forwards. While he would be quick enough, he still is rather slight and would see some physical play that might add to his fouls and also reduce his effectiveness on offense, where he has become our primary threat. How to play Quinn without moving Austin to the 3 is the conundrum.

As far as Andre is concerned, he has built up a history of producing some incredible games but to all but disappear many others. Without some additional consistency, how can we not attempt to see what others can do, especially when we are playing teams that are a small threat? Ultimately, Andre will have to find a way to contribute in every game, or coach K will have to look for alternatives. The one you mention with Quinn is one and using Michael is another. So far we have to assume that Alex is not up to it for some reason, but it is hard to believe he is so behind the curve that he cannot get a few minutes in any game.

Tyler will get minutes, but I don't think he is the answer either, given his propensity to foul and his size. A good backup but not someone who can make the kind of impact we are looking for.

So perhaps we wind up playing Austin, Kelly and Mason big minutes and see Quinn sub in when Seth is out. Then perhaps let the 3 be an experiment with Andre, Michael and Alex, but only if Alex is showing enough in practice. Tonight we will see coach K react to the play in the OSU game as he looks for ways to tighten the defense and at the same time increase the offensive efficiency.

mikegismynewhero
12-07-2011, 09:11 AM
Wes Eikmeier, Jesse Carr, Gregg Smith, and Dwight Smith...All play for CSU..and they all come from High Schools in Nebraska. Eikmeier from Fremont Bergan, Jesse Carr from Ainsworth, and Gregg and Dwight Smith (brothers) played for Ralston...I've never been so excited for a pre-march duke match-up! I was in high school at the same times as these players and they amazed me by their talent. i haven't really followed them after they left their respective schools but from what i remember in highschool; they are all solid players, especially Eikmeier. I hope all four players play exceptionally well but in the end Duke runs 'em over :) #LGD

jamesfrommaiden
12-07-2011, 10:03 AM
Will we see Alex Murphy tonight? Will "Silent G" see more p.t.? Am i the only one who is a little uncomfortable with Quinn taking over the point? Its probably just nerves from the disaster at the Ohio State. I am anxious to see the top rated passer among ACC frosh. His quicks could pay great dividends on the defensive side of the ball. Either way i expect an impressive outing tonight by the Devils.
LETS GO DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

Kedsy
12-07-2011, 12:33 PM
We are striving to be national champions, right? We will not achieve that with Seth running the point.

"Will not achieve"? What did you say when Jon Scheyer ran point. Also, you think it'll be easier to become national champions with a freshman point guard?


Our current level of offensive proficiency won't cut it as the season progresses.

According to Pomeroy, we have the 6th best offensive proficiency in the country, and that includes the debacle at Ohio State. Why won't that "cut it"?


Will he be challenged on defense at the 3? Sure, sometimes, but he more than makes up for it at the offensive end...

This appears to be exactly the opposite of Coach K's philosophy. K has rarely if ever sacrificed defense for offense, so I'm not sure why you think he'll start now. If Quinn starts, it will be because K believes it will improve our defense, or at least keep it the same.


Mason and Ryan need to start. Dre has not earned a starting spot. Doing the math, Quinn will be our starter PG as the season progresses.

I'm not sure how expressing your opinion that "Dre has not earned a starting spot" can lead to "doing the math" and arriving at the conclusion that Quinn must start. Also, you do know Andre has one of the best offensive efficiency ratings on the team, right? How has Quinn "earned" a starting spot more than Andre?


Maybe Tyler will start right away, given his experience.

You go on and on about how our offense needs to be more efficient and then you say it's OK to start Tyler? You think he'll make our offense more efficient?

CDu
12-07-2011, 01:19 PM
Will we see Alex Murphy tonight?

I'd guess we won't see him play tonight. But that's purely speculation. If he doesn't play this month, I think we'll have a pretty good idea of whether or not he'll redshirt.


Will "Silent G" see more p.t.?

Tonight? I'd say there's a reasonable chance he'll play more than he played pre-OSU, considering the quality of the opponent. It will be interesting to see whether we stick with heavy minutes for Dawkins or whether Gbinije or Cook see a big jump in minutes.


Am i the only one who is a little uncomfortable with Quinn taking over the point?

Well, are we sure he's taking over at PG tonight? We've heard the one CBS posting that suggested Cook might start. I haven't heard anything beyond that (except message board chatter), and that's a dubious source to be the primary source.


His quicks could pay great dividends on the defensive side of the ball.

Maybe. But I've not seen anything to suggest he's better or worse defensively than our other perimeter defenders.

meloveduke
12-07-2011, 01:48 PM
"Will not achieve"? What did you say when Jon Scheyer ran point. Also, you think it'll be easier to become national champions with a freshman point guard?


Also, you do know Andre has one of the best offensive efficiency ratings on the team, right? How has Quinn "earned" a starting spot more than Andre?


He is not playing good right know. I see it in every game -1. He is not a good defender at the 3 spot and is still a bit slower then most of the 1s ans 2s he will face. Quinn has shown in his first few games against good teams that he can defend better then Dre. No he cant replace Dre at the 3 because he is shorter then Dre, but he is more of a true point then both Rivers and Seth. I have been saying it for a while that he would gain the starting point role ,baring injory to himself, for months now.

To me this team is lacking a true point and something on defence. Quinn is a true point and a good one at that. Quinn can defend also. So, over Dre it is a big step up for the team. Imho this team will be better on both ends of the floor starting Quinn at point over Dre at the 3.





I do feel bad for the Colorado team, cause I know this team is going to come out swinging....

CDu
12-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Quinn has shown in his first few games against good teams that he can defend better then Dre.

I don't see where you've gotten evidence of this. And that's not to say Dawkins has been great defensively - just that we haven't seen anything to suggest Cook has been better defensively.


No he cant replace Dre at the 3 because he is shorter then Dre, but he is more of a true point then both Rivers and Seth. I have been saying it for a while that he would gain the starting point role ,baring injory to himself, for months now.

He may have more "PG skills" than Curry or Rivers. That doesn't mean that he's ready to start at PG for this Duke team. I've seen nothing to this point to suggest he's clearly a better option than Dawkins. Cook has spent very little time running the offense so far. You seem to be basing this all on high school reputation rather than actual collegiate performance.


To me this team is lacking a true point and something on defence. Quinn is a true point and a good one at that. Quinn can defend also. So, over Dre it is a big step up for the team. Imho this team will be better on both ends of the floor starting Quinn at point over Dre at the 3.

Debatable, for the reasons I suggested above.

Kedsy
12-07-2011, 02:53 PM
Quinn can defend also.


I don't see where you've gotten evidence of this. And that's not to say Dawkins has been great defensively - just that we haven't seen anything to suggest Cook has been better defensively.

I agree with CDu.

Having said that, in a GoDuke audio interview (http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?catid=36410&id=820168) today, Coach K said his biggest concern is defense, specifically containing the opposing PG. If Quinn starts tonight it will be to see if he can improve our defense on the opposing PG (and NOT because he's a "true point").

Assuming he starts, it will be interesting to see if he can achieve that, and also to see how well Austin defends at the 3. And how well Andre reacts to coming off the bench. Then it will be even more interesting to see if we keep that starting configuration against Washington, which features a group of fairly big, strong perimeter players.

As I said in the Phase II thread, I think the "Quinn question" is a big one that will develop over the next half dozen games. There seem to be fairly major pros and cons for both sides of the question.

COYS
12-07-2011, 03:10 PM
I agree with CDu.

Having said that, in a GoDuke audio interview (http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?catid=36410&id=820168) today, Coach K said his biggest concern is defense, specifically containing the opposing PG. If Quinn starts tonight it will be to see if he can improve our defense on the opposing PG (and NOT because he's a "true point").

Assuming he starts, it will be interesting to see if he can achieve that, and also to see how well Austin defends at the 3. And how well Andre reacts to coming off the bench. Then it will be even more interesting to see if we keep that starting configuration against Washington, which features a group of fairly big, strong perimeter players.

As I said in the Phase II thread, I think the "Quinn question" is a big one that will develop over the next half dozen games. There seem to be fairly major pros and cons for both sides of the question.
Agree with kedsy, here. Our defense, according to KenPom is the worst it's been since kenpom started tracking offensive and defensive efficiency. Our offense is 6th despite Curry learning a new role and Mason's inability to convert free throws. Our defense, however, has been poor by Duke standards. That being said, I think it's correctable. If Quinn starts, it's because he's going to make our defense better, because the offense has been about as good as any reasonable fan could have hoped so far.

DukieInBrasil
12-07-2011, 06:31 PM
"Will not achieve"? What did you say when Jon Scheyer ran point. Also, you think it'll be easier to become national champions with a freshman point guard?

Well, K did start Chris Duhon as a Fr. to win a NC. Granted there are large differences between their games and how much they had done up this point (8 games ain't much, but then, QC hasn't done much). Anyway, i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea that we would start a Fr. PG and not win the NC.

I'll admit that i didn't think we'd win the NC with Jon at the point, not b/c of him but b/c of our lack of post play. And then the Beard took over. Jon's style was not only perfect for the 2010 squad, but his play created that style. But it needed the complimentary power of the synergy between Zoubek and the Beard, creating the Zoubeard, giving Jon all the inside prowess he would need to create the NC for us. All he needed was the special ZBLT sauce for the championship sandwich.

So, will QC be able to bring whatever condiment that we seem to be imagining that is missing to take us to championship level? Who's to say that we don't already have it? None of our National Championship teams have had perfect records, so they were not the best team in the country on at least 2 occasions (as many as 7) in each of those 4 glorious seasons. All that matters is that you are the best during each one of the 6 individual match-ups at the end of the year. You can never predict what that path is going to be, and so you can never project which combination of players from now will be the best for the tournament games we will end up playing. Now, there are only certain combinations available, and certainly one will emerge as the one K prefers, but game to game match-ups will require that each player be able to fill his role as well as possible. The genius of Coach K is that he knows how to mould the role but also how to mould a player into that role based on skill, personality and motivation.

Personally, I'd like to see Quinn play more, he seems to have a good grip on a fun style of basketball, but i'd rather see us win another National Championship if that means he sits on the pine the entire rest of the year.

riverside6
12-07-2011, 06:37 PM
Live tempo-based stats for the game here...

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=10432

starters for Duke: Thornton, Rivers, Curry, Kelly, Mason Plumlee -- no Cook despite the rumors that he would be in there

gep
12-07-2011, 06:52 PM
No Andre either... hope things go well for him in any case...

gep
12-07-2011, 06:54 PM
The "Schedules" link on the home page had ESPNU forever, I think. Now (maybe earlier today?) the home page shows ESPN2 (below the wonderful picture). I also found that the game is on ESPN3.

riverside6
12-07-2011, 06:59 PM
The "Schedules" link on the home page had ESPNU forever, I think. Now (maybe earlier today?) the home page shows ESPN2 (below the wonderful picture). I also found that the game is on ESPN3.

definitely on ESPN2 tonight (it was ESPNU previously)

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:05 PM
I will be shocked and very disappointed if we don't beat this team by a very large margin. I predict it will not be remotely close. Don't mean disrespect to our opponent, but they don't start anyone over 6'4" and we're at home and mad because we're coming off a loss. If you've watched K's teams over the years, you can do the math...

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:07 PM
I doubt we'll need it tonight but I really hate to see us missing the freebies from the line with such regularity :(

Dukeface88
12-07-2011, 07:09 PM
So, where is the game chat these days? Snrub is kinda dead

JMarley50
12-07-2011, 07:16 PM
Looks like K is going to the bench early. Dre is going to have a huge game at this rate! Maybe not starting him lit a fire under his rear!

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:17 PM
That first breakaway jam from Andre was big - watch for him to have a BIG night. He's so much better when he makes a shot or two early. I wish he had the mental focus and maturity to play this way all the time, but perhaps that will come in time.

DukieInBrasil
12-07-2011, 07:21 PM
That first breakaway jam from Andre was big - watch for him to have a BIG night. He's so much better when he makes a shot or two early. I wish he had the mental focus and maturity to play this way all the time, but perhaps that will come in time.
He's got two jams and a 3 for 7pts. Mason's got 9. Hot start.

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:24 PM
I hate to say it, but I just don't think Miles is ever going to truly "get" it. Perfect alley-oop setup from Curry and he had no clue. In fact, I think he's generally looked clueless tonight on both ends of the floor. Ah well, maybe he can get some rebounds at least...

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:29 PM
I told you....;)

DukieInBrasil
12-07-2011, 07:30 PM
Dre came to play!!! I like it when he shoots like this.
D looks much more committed, however, these guys don't have the studs that OSU had.

mapei
12-07-2011, 07:30 PM
So, where is the game chat these days? Snrub is kinda dead

Been wondering myself. When I accessed it tonight, it was still showing tOSU chat.

DukieInBrasil
12-07-2011, 07:32 PM
I hate to say it, but I just don't think Miles is ever going to truly "get" it. Perfect alley-oop setup from Curry and he had no clue. In fact, I think he's generally looked clueless tonight on both ends of the floor. Ah well, maybe he can get some rebounds at least...
He's had a nice Oboard and put back for 2, 2 blocked shots, a couple of boards and that "lob" from Curry hit the rim, it woulda been goal tending for Miles to try to get it.

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:33 PM
Hmm...I thought that shot by Miles should've counted - am I alone on that one?

JMarley50
12-07-2011, 07:33 PM
I hate to say it, but I just don't think Miles is ever going to truly "get" it. Perfect alley-oop setup from Curry and he had no clue. In fact, I think he's generally looked clueless tonight on both ends of the floor. Ah well, maybe he can get some rebounds at least...

It wasn't a perfect lob. It hit the inside of the rim which means it was in the cylinder and he couldn't touch it. Miles started to go for it and stopped.

Its funny that we can call whether Andre is going to have a big game offensively based on his first two possessions. He isn't having a good game defensively so far and I can't figure out for the life of me why someone with his jumping ability does not crash the boards when the shot goes up.

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:36 PM
He's had a nice Oboard and put back for 2, 2 blocked shots, a couple of boards and that "lob" from Curry hit the rim, it woulda been goal tending for Miles to try to get it.

Yeah, he does some nice things and maybe my expectations of him are just too high but it seems like his understanding and feel for the game haven't caught up with his considerable physical skills and abilities.

uh_no
12-07-2011, 07:42 PM
couple things:

they're still breaking us down off the dribble

andre got hot and started taking a couple of more ill advised shots

plumWOW

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:42 PM
Not real impressed with our defense thus far. Still 4 mins to go in the half and we've already given up 30pts on nearly 46% shooting (75% from 3). Is CSU really that good offensively? I know they lead the country in threes but still...

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:45 PM
Awww man...Andre looks to have tweaked his back pretty bad. Despite the morons from ESPN saying it's his knee. He was obviously grabbing at his back, guys.

JMarley50
12-07-2011, 07:45 PM
I saw Andre grab his back earlier, then he just went down holding it again. Lower back strain perhaps?

DU82
12-07-2011, 07:46 PM
Dawkins to the locker room. Looked like he took a kidney punch on that loose ball.

CDu
12-07-2011, 07:47 PM
It wasn't a perfect lob. It hit the inside of the rim which means it was in the cylinder and he couldn't touch it. Miles started to go for it and stopped.

Its funny that we can call whether Andre is going to have a big game offensively based on his first two possessions. He isn't having a good game defensively so far and I can't figure out for the life of me why someone with his jumping ability does not crash the boards when the shot goes up.

Actually that pass hit the very front of the rim. It probably would not have been called had he caught it in the air. But it would have been a tricky catch and finish.

CDu
12-07-2011, 07:52 PM
Dawkins to the locker room. Looked like he took a kidney punch on that loose ball.

Not a kidney punch. Looked like a non contact tweak of the back. The CSU player made no contact with Dawkins' back. Looked awkward.

ChrisP
12-07-2011, 07:52 PM
Not real impressed with our defense thus far. Still 4 mins to go in the half and we've already given up 30pts on nearly 46% shooting (75% from 3). Is CSU really that good offensively? I know they lead the country in threes but still...

What a stupid comment! I can't believe I said it!

Seriously, I'm pretty impressed that we held them to 30 for those last 4 minutes. Still, we need to get better on D, for sure. Was hoping we'd have seen that more in the first half but hey, there's a whole other half to go!

sagegrouse
12-07-2011, 07:56 PM
Now let's keep it up! The team came to play -- I didn't have any doubts. Andre was on fire for most of the half -- I hope the injury is just a bruise. I guess we'll know if he comes back.

Mason Plumlee -- why isn't he in the All-American discussions? Not as fiery as Laettner, but I love the comparison.

Austin was on the court more than anyone. Sign of maturity.

sagegrouse

ncexnyc
12-07-2011, 08:04 PM
Sitting here at work checking out the boxscore and the assist total is very impressive. Can't say the same for the rebounding situation. Nice to see Dre go off, hope he's ok. Another big game for Mason, but not seeing much in the stats from Ryan so far.

JMarley50
12-07-2011, 08:08 PM
Just a couple things I noticed...

Defense is not playing great, but it could be worse I guess. Our bigs defending the basket is making up for a lot of mistakes.

Mason is having a perfect game so far. Perfect from the field 8 boards and 4 blocks if I'm not mistaken.

Offensively, our guards are making some bad decisions. We obviously have a size advantage, Miles and Mason both are taking advantage of it. So why am I seeing a guard take an off balance and well defended shot when our big has his guy on his back? Austin giving the ball up to Mason in that spot with 6 seconds left was beyond dumb. Luckily Mason was able to find Tyler.

In the second half I want to see the ball in the post most every time down the floor. They can't stop it. Hopefully we play better on ball D as well.

loldevilz
12-07-2011, 08:12 PM
What a stupid comment! I can't believe I said it!

Seriously, I'm pretty impressed that we held them to 30 for those last 4 minutes. Still, we need to get better on D, for sure. Was hoping we'd have seen that more in the first half but hey, there's a whole other half to go!

I think defense looks way worse in the second half so far

jipops
12-07-2011, 08:13 PM
Our defense overall is pretty awful. Thankfully theirs is too.

Seriously bummed about the Andre injury. I don't see him sitting on the bench to start the 2nd. Bad luck with injuries strikes again?

CDu
12-07-2011, 08:16 PM
Our defense overall is pretty awful. Thankfully theirs is too.

Seriously bummed about the Andre injury. I don't see him sitting on the bench to start the 2nd. Bad luck with injuries strikes again?

Hopefully it is just a tweak/spasm and nothing long-term serious.

lotusland
12-07-2011, 08:16 PM
I know we have guard the perimeter since they can shoot 3s but do we have to go for every shot fake inside and let them beat us to the rack constantly?

DU82
12-07-2011, 08:25 PM
Not a kidney punch. Looked like a non contact tweak of the back. The CSU player made no contact with Dawkins' back. Looked awkward.

Thx for the correction. Looked like contact from my angle. Also didn't mean to imply a dirty play, just where I thought Andre got hit.

CDu
12-07-2011, 08:28 PM
Reporting that it is back spasms for Dawkins.

loldevilz
12-07-2011, 08:29 PM
That was just a great dunk by Hairston

jipops
12-07-2011, 08:34 PM
Reporting that it is back spasms for Dawkins.

Probably a topic for the other thread, but I'd guess this takes him out of the Terrence Ross matchup. Hopefully it's the only matchup he is out of this season.

lotusland
12-07-2011, 08:36 PM
That was just a great dunk by Hairston

Nice dunk but bad hands twice before the wide open dunk. Defense is not great either. I'm glad they are not raining threes but I'm hate all the layups were giving up. Really unsatisfying 20-pt game os far.

jipops
12-07-2011, 08:38 PM
Curry only has 5 points but he is about the only guy playing consistent defense.