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View Full Version : MBB: Kentucky 73, UNC-CH 72



kybluedevil
12-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Tip off in 30minutes....

Who is the better team? Who will go farther in April? Now that UNC is no longer "invincible", would be interesting to see what UK's weak spot is (besides their coach)

I see 10 future NBA ballers in today's game.

jipops
12-03-2011, 11:55 AM
I've seen tweets where many nba scouts are looking forward to this, the first nba game of the season.

#1Duke
12-03-2011, 12:02 PM
If Carolina's bigs show up and play like they should, Carolina is the best team and should win in a close game.
If Kentucky dominates the boards and Carolina's bigs turn the ball over, play soft,and leave points hanging on the rim Kentucky wins by double digits.

Wander
12-03-2011, 12:21 PM
If Carolina's bigs turn the ball over, play soft,and leave points hanging on the rim

Don't worry, Zeller's on it!

uh_no
12-03-2011, 12:23 PM
not gonna lie....both these teams are talented.....but this is UGLY basketball....turnovers, blocks.....good to see UK getting swatted away when a reasonable big is playing defense....

but sloppy sloppy sloppy

#1Duke
12-03-2011, 12:27 PM
Don't worry, Zeller's on it!

He never could catch the ball and WHY he constantly brings the ball to waste level is beyond me.

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 12:31 PM
not gonna lie....both these teams are talented.....but this is UGLY basketball....turnovers, blocks.....good to see UK getting swatted away when a reasonable big is playing defense....

but sloppy sloppy sloppy

I completely disagree that this is sloppy. UNC has turned it over quite a bit but UK only has 2 turnovers and blocks don't necessarily mean an ugly game especially when you have size like Henson in the game. (By the way a total of 2 blocks in the game). Does Dwight Howard having 5 blocks make a game sloppy? It shows UK is getting to the rim but UNC has bigs who can mask their defensive deficiencies.

UNC shooting 61% and both teams getting exactly what they want on offense. If this is a sloppy game, then what is not a sloppy game in college basketball especially in early December?

Gthoma2a
12-03-2011, 12:41 PM
We have one team that can shoot and one that can't so far. Teague can't pass either.

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Game appears to be on pace for a 85-90 point pace although the "badder" guys are winning. I don't necessarily think this indicates UNC will be better than UK but that they don't start a freshman while UK starts 3 and Calipari has shown learning the dribble-drive is a learning process. But I also don't think either team is bad defensively, just shows you how good offensively both teams are. You have good defenders with Henson, Zeller, Jones, Davis and even Barnes and Gilchrist have the makings of good defensive wings.

ArkieDukie
12-03-2011, 12:44 PM
A few comments:

1. I thought Henson had bulked up? If so, he must have been absolutely emaciated before. Dude has toothpick legs. Great hook shot, though.
2. Does anyone else suspect Roy of telling Hairston to tweet that he wouldn't be playing? Doesn't Roy have a bit of a reputation of talking up minor injuries? Maybe I'm just cynical.
3. No big surprise: UNC's bigs are good. They hit their shots, and they hit free throws.
4. Refs are calling this game the way I wish our game against tOSU had been called. Not that I'm making excuses - we were clearly outplayed - but it would've been nice if the refs hadn't swallowed their whistles on the many occasions when Sullinger bumped the shooter.
5. Outside shooting is also good for the heels. Dang, they're good. UK not bad, either.

Devilsfan
12-03-2011, 12:51 PM
I hate to say this but watching the game and looking at a total squad we may have been "slightly" out recruited.

ArkieDukie
12-03-2011, 12:56 PM
Just noticed that there are an awful lot of UK fans sitting behind the UNC bench. Roy must be apoplectic.

feldspar
12-03-2011, 01:02 PM
OH MY GAWSH...PJ Hairston is playing after all! I'm so surprised!

(end sarcasm)

Heelo
12-03-2011, 01:06 PM
Just noticed that there are an awful lot of UK fans sitting behind the UNC bench. Roy must be apoplectic.


Almost every school seats the opponent's fans behind the visitors' bench.

UK, on the other hand, puts the opposing school's fans in the second deck. I find it outrageous.

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 01:13 PM
I hate to say this but watching the game and looking at a total squad we may have been "slightly" out recruited.

While on the outside this appears to be the case, both of these teams had their top returning freshmen from last year bypass the draft while we lost Kyrie. Take HB or Jones off these teams and things are very different. I don't really think UNC has out recruited us but that recruiting is cyclical and the pieces fell together for them espcially with Barnes staying behind. Cal has out recruited everyone recently b/c of the one and done but has little results b/c while he has better talent, he relies too much on freshmen. Again, without Jones, this game is a blowout.

So I wouldn't worry too much about being out recruited b/c it takes recruiting and timing to get that good. Theoretically, we could keep our top 5-10 team completely intact like UNC did this year with additions of a pure shooting SG and perhaps the best prospect in the country or a post prospect we haven't seen in a while. Then it would appear that we out recruited everyone but K and Roy appear to have a solid plan of getting 3-4 year guys with talent like Barnes, Rivers, KI and going from there. We are always in the NC title picture even though I'd look to a year like 2014 for a real NC run with Sheed, Cook, G, Murphy, Jones, perhaps Parker, Randle, or Parker. And last time I did that was with KI and we run without him so who knows.

Faison1
12-03-2011, 01:33 PM
Almost every school seats the opponent's fans behind the visitors' bench.

UK, on the other hand, puts the opposing school's fans in the second deck. I find it outrageous.

Did you watch the OSU game? I think Duke had one row of Duke Fans behind its bench. Anytime K got out of his seat, I'm sure he got some good sound bites.

BTW....both of these team's frontcourts look good. Not sure if we could match up right now.

Devilsfan
12-03-2011, 01:33 PM
The perhaps is the key to a dominate total squad. Show we shall just wait and see how our staff does. I am hopeful because the addition of Capel most said he would bring added recruiting success. Let's see.

uh_no
12-03-2011, 01:39 PM
Did you watch the OSU game? I think Duke had one row of Duke Fans behind its bench. Anytime K got out of his seat, I'm sure he got some good sound bites.

BTW....both of these team's frontcourts look good. Not sure if we could match up right now.

Though I've been down on our frontcourt the past couple years, I'd be skeptical to say we couldn't match up. All other things equal, i think mason can hold his own on anyone in the country. I think kelly and miles are quite adequate.

The problem so much the perimeter, the bigs have to be pulled off their men. Now, certainly i think they can work on how to hedge just enough to prevent an easy layup while not leaving their man open for a dunk. If we ran into UK, though I can imagine this being a huge problem (just watch the highlights from their game against st johns the other day)

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 01:41 PM
The perhaps is the key to a dominate total squad. Show we shall just wait and see how our staff does. I am hopeful because the addition of Capel most said he would bring added recruiting success. Let's see.

I know I was merely responding to the idea that we are being out recruited which apart from UK I don't really believe to be the case. But I agree and I'm just enjoying the ride and seeing what this team can do and that is why its fun to be a Duke fan b/c we could get hot just about any year and win a title something 2010 proved and as I did mention, I've learned not to look ahead to next year like I did in 2010 and was gladly proved wrong with Scheyer and company.

Cell-R
12-03-2011, 01:41 PM
Both of these teams need to lose. Lose-lose situation...

Maybe something crazy will happen and it will end in a tie... :eek:

Faison1
12-03-2011, 01:47 PM
Though I've been down on our frontcourt the past couple years, I'd be skeptical to say we couldn't match up. All other things equal, i think mason can hold his own on anyone in the country. I think kelly and miles are quite adequate.

The problem so much the perimeter, the bigs have to be pulled off their men. Now, certainly i think they can work on how to hedge just enough to prevent an easy layup while not leaving their man open for a dunk. If we ran into UK, though I can imagine this being a huge problem (just watch the highlights from their game against st johns the other day)

I guess I should explain my statement: I should have placed more emphasis on "right now". I think our frontcourt is a real strength of ours this year. It needs time to develop, though.

But I will add that both UNC and UK seem to be stacked up front. Gilchrist, Anthony Davis, Terrance Jones; and Henson, Zeller, Barnes, and McAdoo. That seems to be more imposing than Plumlee, Plumlee, and Kelly.

Devilsfan
12-03-2011, 01:48 PM
Cheering hard for Kentucky. I can't believe it. Wait, yes I can!

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 01:50 PM
I guess I should explain my statement: I should have placed more emphasis on "right now". I think our frontcourt is a real strength of ours this year. It needs time to develop, though.

But I will add that both UNC and UK seem to be stacked up front. Gilchrist, Anthony Davis, Terrance Jones; and Henson, Zeller, Barnes, and McAdoo. That seems to be more imposing than Plumlee, Plumlee, and Kelly.

Barnes and Gilchrist aren't front court players. Yes, we will struggle b/c our 3 is 6'4 6'5 but 12 of Barne's 14 points have come from beyond the arc and I can't give you a discrete number but many of Gilchrist's points have come from penetration that started beyond the arc.

uh_no
12-03-2011, 01:51 PM
I guess I should explain my statement: I should have placed more emphasis on "right now". I think our frontcourt is a real strength of ours this year. It needs time to develop, though.

But I will add that both UNC and UK seem to be stacked up front. Gilchrist, Anthony Davis, Terrance Jones; and Henson, Zeller, Barnes, and McAdoo. That seems to be more imposing than Plumlee, Plumlee, and Kelly.

well, barnes is a wing, I'm not sure I'd count that as front court. But regardless, no idea who on our team will guard him. I think zeller is largely overrated and would take mason 100% over zeller right now. And seeing as they can't play all those guys at the same time, I'm more than happy with plumlee plumlee and kelly.

Would I take one of those groups over ours? maybe, but i don't think either group is so ridiculously superior as to be unguardable by us.

Again, the perimeter defense is so much more the issue right now that the interior defense should hardly be the focus right now.

Dev11
12-03-2011, 01:54 PM
Spotted: a man in a Cameron Crazies t-shirt, during a crowd-pan just after Strickland lost the ball out of bounds.

That's a brave soul.

Devilsfan
12-03-2011, 01:57 PM
Ky freshman blocks henson! How sweet it is!

davekay1971
12-03-2011, 01:58 PM
Awesome ending! But both teams looked like very talented teams that were much better on defense than offense. Wierd to say that about a Roy Williams team...

Kedsy
12-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Is it too late for UNC to go undefeated?

Gthoma2a
12-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Barnes and Gilchrist aren't front court players. Yes, we will struggle b/c our 3 is 6'4 6'5 but 12 of Barne's 14 points have come from beyond the arc and I can't give you a discrete number but many of Gilchrist's points have come from penetration that started beyond the arc.

I have a feeling we are closer to not having a 6'4 3 for much longer if what people have said about Quinn starting happens. I would bet that if Quinn doesn't work, we start to work Silent G in. Silent G seems like he is getting better.

loran16
12-03-2011, 02:01 PM
The score is REALLY REALLY deceptive. UNC shot 60% from 3, 80% from the line (including 2-2 from Henson late and 6-6 from Zeller). And LOST. Those are #s that UNC cannot keep up. Not even close. They should win by 20 when they do those things. But...not so much.

Devilsfan
12-03-2011, 02:02 PM
Kentucky took Carolinas best shot and won with all those freshmen and sophomores and no China or Mauii.

BluDvlsN1
12-03-2011, 02:03 PM
Coaching win!
Pure and simple!
Ole Roy/NC ill prepared for that potential eventulality!!

BobbyFan
12-03-2011, 02:03 PM
Strange ending. UNC didn't foul Davis, and then Teague may have traveled just before time expired.

Gthoma2a
12-03-2011, 02:03 PM
Anthony Davis is a great player, but an unbelievable uni-brow.

Kedsy
12-03-2011, 02:04 PM
I have a feeling we won't have a 6'4 3 for much longer if what people have said about Quinn starting happens. I would bet that if Quinn doesn't work, we start to work Silent G in. Silent G seems like he is getting better.

Based on what? Garbage time against Ohio State? Also, while Quinn is playing we'll have a 6'4" SF. And are you so sure Quinn won't work out at PG? If so, why not put Andre back?

No matter what happens, I suspect we'll be playing a 6'4" SF (either Austin or Andre) for at least 30 minutes every game.

Bob Green
12-03-2011, 02:06 PM
well, barnes is a wing, I'm not sure I'd count that as front court. But regardless, no idea who on our team will guard him.

Against Kentucky, Harrison Barnes was 4-5 on 3PT FGs, but only 1-7 on 2PT FGs. The key to guarding Barnes is to force him to put the ball on the floor for more than one dribble. As Jay Bilas has stated, more than once, Barnes is very good off one dribble. If we played Carolina today, Andre Dawkins would guard Barnes. As the season unfolds, if Michael Gbinije gains experience and playing time he would be another candidate to help with the task.

Gthoma2a
12-03-2011, 02:07 PM
I see Quinn working, but I don't see Dre back starting because of who it would bench. G just helps with matchups more. If he is calm, it means that he can be more useful against teams with legit 6'8 wings. Dre would be depth that changes the pace and REALLY stretches the defense out to the 3 point line.

johnb
12-03-2011, 02:09 PM
Kentucky took Carolinas best shot and won with all those freshmen and sophomores and no China or Mauii.

well, they also did it with a half dozen future NBA players.

Henson and Zeller didn't foul Davis at the end when they could have, while Bullock and Barnes were at least drifting in that direction. While I'm sure it was bedlam-like on the floor, their passivity at that moment was amazing. Not sure if I'd pin this loss on the coach, but, since I prefer to do that when talking about Carolina--and I like Henson at least partly because of his sister-- I'll blame williams for not reinforcing smart basketball to his players. I'd also suggest that the Crazies bring this up when Carolina visits.

Wander
12-03-2011, 02:12 PM
Against Kentucky, Harrison Barnes was 4-5 on 3PT FGs, but only 1-7 on 2PT FGs.

Just wanted to point out that his one 2 pointer was basically a three point shot, but he had a foot on the line. Two rebounds, and no free throws. He was turned into nothing more than a three-point specialist.

Class of '94
12-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Kentucky took Carolinas best shot and won with all those freshmen and sophomores and no China or Mauii.

I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic or not; but keep in mind that Ky did play UNC at home as opposed to on the road; and imo the reference you're making to impact of Duke going to China and Maui has no relevance on this game. Keep in mind that KY went out of the country with last year's young team and they went to the final 4 and played in the championship game. Coach K has more pieces to integrate and figure out with this year's Duke team than Cal has with his KY team (they only go about 6-7 deep btw). That being said, KY is good; but I like our chances against either team in March and April.

Gthoma2a
12-03-2011, 02:16 PM
I don't think either of these two is the #1 team right now. Kentucky has talent, but they seem to lack maturity for long stretches. I would say that OSU is #1, but I may be biased after seeing what they did to us.

JayBean
12-03-2011, 02:19 PM
Just wanted to point out that his one 2 pointer was basically a three point shot, but he had a foot on the line. Two rebounds, and no free throws. He was turned into nothing more than a three-point specialist.

HB = Danny Green without the dancing?

Kedsy
12-03-2011, 02:21 PM
I see Quinn working, but I don't see Dre back starting because of who it would bench. G just helps with matchups more. If he is calm, it means that he can be more useful against teams with legit 6'8 wings. Dre would be depth that changes the pace and REALLY stretches the defense out to the 3 point line.

If Quinn works out, then I think that's the end of it. Andre wouldn't start but neither would Mike or Alex (Mike can't start for the same reason you give for Andre -- if Quinn's starting who would be benched for Mike?). In fact, I'd go further and say that if Quinn sticks as a starter, neither Mike nor Alex (nor Josh) would play very much at all. We'd still have a three big-man rotation, with three starting perimeter players and Andre (instant offense) and Tyler (instant defense) off the bench. I just can't see Coach K going 9 deep (in close or tough games). I guess it's possible Mike could take Tyler's spot in the rotation, but Tyler has done well so far in the defensive energy role (as well as end of the shot clock offense), so I wouldn't expect Mike to pass him.

uh_no
12-03-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't think either of these two is the #1 team right now. Kentucky has talent, but they seem to lack maturity for long stretches. I would say that OSU is #1, but I may be biased after seeing what they did to us.

no doubt in my mind that OSU is the best team in the country

2 UK
3 SU
4 LU


then a group with wisconsin, UNC, baylor, and MAYBE uconn

Class of '94
12-03-2011, 02:29 PM
well, they also did it with a half dozen future NBA players.

Henson and Zeller didn't foul Davis at the end when they could have, while Bullock and Barnes were at least drifting in that direction. While I'm sure it was bedlam-like on the floor, their passivity at that moment was amazing. Not sure if I'd pin this loss on the coach, but, since I prefer to do that when talking about Carolina--and I like Henson at least partly because of his sister-- I'll blame williams for not reinforcing smart basketball to his players. I'd also suggest that the Crazies bring this up when Carolina visits.

IMO, KY's weakness is still their outside shooting; and if they play a hot team in NCAA tournament that is good defensiviely and can score from the outside, I could see KY losing in the tournament just like the John Wall led team a couple of years ago. Force Ky into being a perimeter, half-court team and they can be beaten. And btw, I wasn't as impressed with all the KY freshmen based on all the media hype. While I think Davis will end up being the number 1 pick, his outside/perimeter shooting away from the basket didn't look that good. Davis appears to be the most effective in transition; and does not look as good in a half court game. Hensonj's game away from the basket looks better than Davis's right now to me. Teague didn't look that impressive to me as a PG in terms of his outside shooting and decision making. He appears right now to be less talented than Wall and Knight when they played as freshman for KY. The freshman that impressed me the most and who I believe has the potential to be the most talented of the bunch was Gilchrist. He looked really good; and I thought he and Jones were Ky's best players today. while I think KY has players that will develop into NBA talent, I don't see 6 definite future NBA players right now imo. I see 3 locks to be NBA lottery pickes in Gilchrist, Jones and Davis while other players like Teague (I think is the most sure bet out of this next tier to develop into a first round NBA talent), Lamb and Miller have the potential to be drafted in the first or second round if they continue to develop.

hudlow
12-03-2011, 02:31 PM
I love to see Carolina lose like that.

If only I didn't have to watch Kentucky win like that.

Go Duke!

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Watching UNC closely for the first time, they have a very good team but are not great. I agree with some sentiments on this board that our frontcourt is not nearly as far away from their frontcourt as years past or as many of them would have you believe. Zeller is very efficient but does not do anything flashy and watching Mason play T. Rob or even Sullinger suggests that he should be able to contain Zeller. Kelly will have his hands full with Henson but Kelly is fairly agile player so he should be able to stay with him. Also looking forward to Kelly bringing either Zeller or most likely Henson away from the basket with his 3's. UK did a great job of doubling Zeller and have to believe K will look to do that/Roy will look to work off that. Also surprised at limited use of McAdoo, guess he isn't as great as they thought.

KM doesn't really appear to have developed too much to his game. Barnes is a better shooter but didn't show much else. I don't think he is that bad at driving but obviously not a strong suit and the rest of the back court is very solid and can hurt you. KM is also a liability on defense as he appears able to be beaten off the dribble. Would really help if we had a PG who could get to the rim (Curry has shown flashes of this but do wonder if Cook could do it) but also have to stop KM from driving so maybe TT would be better at that (if only we could put all 3 together and have the best PG in the nation). And Barnes will be tough to guard b/c he can get his shot at any time esp. with our lack of size. I kinda wonder if AR could cover him better than Dre or if G can get 10-20 minutes by then.

Devilsfan
12-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Champions know how to win close games. Could it be more talent on the floor than in the coaching?

uh_no
12-03-2011, 02:32 PM
I love to see Carolina lose like that.

If only I didn't have to watch Kentucky win like that.

Go Duke!

Carolina is an equal opportunity loser, losing to both good and bad teams alike.

Duvall
12-03-2011, 02:41 PM
no doubt in my mind that OSU is the best team in the country

2 UK
3 SU
4 LU


then a group with wisconsin, UNC, baylor, and MAYBE uconn

What the heck is LU?

mgtr
12-03-2011, 02:43 PM
I agree with an earlier poster who was hoping for a tie. I wanted a 0-0 tie. However, since one team had to win, I favored UK. I think they will be unstoppable at tournament time, since they have three frosh with still a lot to learn. I wonder about Coach Cal as a coach (but he is a fabulous recruiter), since the UK offense seems to be one guy (not always the same guy) runs around until he gets the ball. Everyone else sort of stands and watches. Of course, we are also guilty of doing that, but not every play!
One other point -- I think the refs let them "play on" too much for UNC. Zeller and Henson are good, but not really strong with the ball. We miss you Zoubek!

uh_no
12-03-2011, 02:45 PM
What the heck is LU?

Lehigh University OBV

KYtotheCore
12-03-2011, 02:46 PM
while I think KY has players that will develop into NBA talent, I don't see 6 definite future NBA players right now imo. I see 3 locks to be NBA lottery pickes in Gilchrist, Jones and Davis while other players like Teague (I think is the most sure bet out of this next tier to develop into a first round NBA talent), Lamb and Miller have the potential to be drafted in the first or second round if they continue to develop.

Great point. I agree. At this point, I don't think I want the #1 title. Not sure how long we'll hold on to it anyway. I'm still amazed at UNC's 3-pt accuracy, and equally amazed at our inability to defend it. UK still has some growing up to do, but was glad to see that we can play with a UNC without having the inevitable maturity that's due early February.

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 02:49 PM
I also don't understand why Duke drops so much in the ranking. Yes, we got killed but arguably by the best team in the country on their home court in a bad game for us. For whatever reason, we seem to have these probably b/c we have that target on our back and the pressure just builds up from all the outlets that we just have a bad game. St. Johns, Georgetown, now OSU, it happens. Apart from the top 3-4 teams which does include UNC who beat a top 10 team albeit at home and lost to a top 5 team by 1 on the road. After KU, UNC, and OSU I don't see much of a gap between the next 10 or so teams. Syracuse looked pretty good but not great and with all of that stuff hitting the fan, I'm holding judgment on them. Louisville has beaten one ranked team at home and they happen to be the biggest disappointment in Vandy without their C.

It just angered me reading articles saying we had no business as a top 10-15 team. So are you really going to say teams like Xavier, Florida, Wisconsin, UCONN, Alabama or Michigan are better than Duke. That is just crazy in my book when a team like UCONN lost to UCF while Duke lost to the #1 or #2 team in the country hitting on all cylinders. I'd much prefer a blowout to a good team than a close loss to a terrible team. But I do enjoy having Duke more as an underdog.

hurleyfor3
12-03-2011, 02:54 PM
Lehigh University OBV

Las vegas University? I mean, they beat unc, so they have to be the best evah.

Class of '94
12-03-2011, 03:03 PM
Great point. I agree. At this point, I don't think I want the #1 title. Not sure how long we'll hold on to it anyway. I'm still amazed at UNC's 3-pt accuracy, and equally amazed at our inability to defend it. UK still has some growing up to do, but was glad to see that we can play with a UNC without having the inevitable maturity that's due early February.

I'd love to get your thoughts on KY's perimeter shooting. Are you concerned by it in terms of poor outside shooting possibly being a weakness for you come tournament time? And btw, I can't say enough at how impressed I was with Gilchrist. I thought he outplayed Barnes and I would rate him higher than Barnes in terms of impact and higher ceiling at the NBA level. He just looks more fluid and instinctive as a player than Barnes does imo. KY is very good and I think the way you have to approach beating them is to try and keep them off the glass and force them to shoot from the outside while minimizing their dribble penetration. In regards to Duke, I think stopping KY's dribble penetration would be a challenge for Duke right now; but hopefully Duke's perimeter defense will continue to evolve

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Watching UNC closely for the first time, they have a very good team but are not great. I agree with some sentiments on this board that our frontcourt is not nearly as far away from their frontcourt as years past or as many of them would have you believe. Zeller is very efficient but does not do anything flashy and watching Mason play T. Rob or even Sullinger suggests that he should be able to contain Zeller. Kelly will have his hands full with Henson but Kelly is fairly agile player so he should be able to stay with him. Also looking forward to Kelly bringing either Zeller or most likely Henson away from the basket with his 3's. UK did a great job of doubling Zeller and have to believe K will look to do that/Roy will look to work off that. Also surprised at limited use of McAdoo, guess he isn't as great as they thought.

KM doesn't really appear to have developed too much to his game. Barnes is a better shooter but didn't show much else. I don't think he is that bad at driving but obviously not a strong suit and the rest of the back court is very solid and can hurt you. KM is also a liability on defense as he appears able to be beaten off the dribble. Would really help if we had a PG who could get to the rim (Curry has shown flashes of this but do wonder if Cook could do it) but also have to stop KM from driving so maybe TT would be better at that (if only we could put all 3 together and have the best PG in the nation). And Barnes will be tough to guard b/c he can get his shot at any time esp. with our lack of size. I kinda wonder if AR could cover him better than Dre or if G can get 10-20 minutes by then.

I agree, I think we're somewhat okay defensively at the 4 and 5 positions against Zeller and Henson.

Guarding a big talented small forward is our weakest link on defense. Barnes is a nightmare match-up for us. Kyle was all over him like a cheap suit last year, but used up a lot of energy covering him.

Kentucky's SF would be a very difficult cover for us. OSU's wing player, Buford, lit us up, even though he doesn't present a size challenge.

I suspect giving Silent G so much run in the second half of OSU was trying to figure out if he can be of serious use defensively against someone like Harrison Barnes. Putting Dawkins on Barnes is basically surrendering and hoping HB has a cold shooting night.

AR on Barnes would likely give us more effort but probably with little better result, and AR is our centerpiece offensively and putting him on Barnes risks foul trouble for him and using up a lot of energy on the defensive end. On the other hand, making Barnes cover AR on the other end might result in foul trouble for Barnes. Getting Barnes in foul trouble was key for Kentucky as Barnes was hitting everything from 3 and had to sit for a while after picking up two fouls.

I think we'll probably see Dawkins start the UNC game at the 3 position and try to cover Barnes. If Dawkins has a hot shooting night then maybe we hope he can at least match HB offensively. If Dawkins comes out cold like in the OSU game, then perhaps we bring in Silent G to do his best on Barnes. I think it'll be a quick hook if Dawkins comes up short on the Barnes assignment.

kybluedevil
12-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Nice try, but Pitino's team is the U of L.

Interesting that had he stayed in college hoops, he may have been the only legitimate contender with K for 1,000 Wins.

Agree that both these teams are very good, but long lapses in execution on both ends, for both team. A lot of 1-on-1 basketball.

Would be nice to have an athletic Swing Man like Barnes... Missing Singler everyday.

1 24 90
12-03-2011, 03:13 PM
no doubt in my mind that OSU is the best team in the country

2 UK
3 SU
4 LU


then a group with wisconsin, UNC, baylor, and MAYBE uconn

Question - Did you watch Louisville last night? That was the only time I've seen them this year and I wasn't overly impressed - at least not to say that they are definitively better than all but 3 teams.

devildeac
12-03-2011, 03:16 PM
Both of these teams need to lose. Lose-lose situation...

Maybe something crazy will happen and it will end in a tie... :eek:

Best solution: The UK win today gets vacated in a year or two for recruiting/illegal benefits or players/academic violations.

KYtotheCore
12-03-2011, 03:20 PM
I'd love to get your thoughts on KY's perimeter shooting. Are you concerned by it in terms of poor outside shooting possibly being a weakness for you come tournament time? And btw, I can't say enough at how impressed I was with Gilchrist. I thought he outplayed Barnes and I would rate him higher than Barnes in terms of impact and higher ceiling at the NBA level. He just looks more fluid and instinctive as a player than Barnes does imo. KY is very good and I think the way you have to approach beating them is to try and keep them off the glass and force them to shoot from the outside while minimizing their dribble penetration. In regards to Duke, I think stopping KY's dribble penetration would be a challenge for Duke right now; but hopefully Duke's perimeter defense will continue to evolve

To this point in the season, I would have to say we're not very good at ANYTHING yet. Poor perimiter D seems to be a pattern, but my perspective is within this same calander year, most of our team were at their prom. I think Gilchrist did a very good job today, but the thing about not having many upper classmen is that next game it could be Davis or Teague, etc. With so many freshman, there isn't much frame of reference besides a handful of games. Last year, I thought Jones was a bit of a shrinking violet facing equal/superior talent. I read in an interview earlier this year that he developed his strength and attitude more for this season, and it shows. He is having a little more edge from an attitude standpoint, which we UK fans are glad to see. As for how to beat UK, I can't help but think someone will get it done, but again, with a different game MVP every game, there simply isn't a whole lot of game film yet for a frame of reference. Everybody's game is still so much in development, any one player can have a career high if the opposing team doesn't cover everybody. Eventually, someone will, maybe sooner than later. I don't know if Cal knows yet. I do think one thing is apparent though, Teague plays much better when he sets up his teammates instead of trying to take over. We have another player who gains eligiblility later this month named Ryan Harrow, and from all reports, he stands a VERY good chance at becoming the starting PG. We're all hearing how talented he is.

I have a TREMENDOUS respect for Duke, and knowing what they can expect from their returning players. We, unfortunately, don't have that luxury, but it has been entertaining. Just like the last 2 seasons, UK fans will see how it all turns out.

roywhite
12-03-2011, 03:21 PM
I generally enjoy a Tar Heel loss, but their loss to Kentucky is somehow unsatisfying.

Signed,
Conflicted

Newton_14
12-03-2011, 03:34 PM
I generally enjoy a Tar Heel loss, but their loss to Kentucky is somehow unsatisfying.

Signed,
Conflicted

Let me cheer you up. Look at it this way, the dominant UNC team has now lost 2 out of their last 3 games.. Ol Roy will soon go Ol'Roy on us and give us lots of good quotes..

uh_no
12-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Question - Did you watch Louisville last night? That was the only time I've seen them this year and I wasn't overly impressed - at least not to say that they are definitively better than all but 3 teams.

I did, in fact.

Who would you put in front of them? UNC certainly played well today, but abnormally good 3pt shooting made it a lot closer than it would have been otherwise. Uconn isn't really good....even their wins have looked pretty bad.....they beat a vanderbilt team who played very well IMO.

Honestly it comes down to who else is better? and there just aren't that many really good teams outside (IMO) the top 3, or to put it better, there are lots of teams there, but i think that UK OSU and SU are head and shoulders above right now.

MCFinARL
12-03-2011, 03:41 PM
I agree, I think we're somewhat okay defensively at the 4 and 5 positions against Zeller and Henson.

Guarding a big talented small forward is our weakest link on defense. Barnes is a nightmare match-up for us. Kyle was all over him like a cheap suit last year, but used up a lot of energy covering him.

Kentucky's SF would be a very difficult cover for us. OSU's wing player, Buford, lit us up, even though he doesn't present a size challenge.

I suspect giving Silent G so much run in the second half of OSU was trying to figure out if he can be of serious use defensively against someone like Harrison Barnes. Putting Dawkins on Barnes is basically surrendering and hoping HB has a cold shooting night.

AR on Barnes would likely give us more effort but probably with little better result, and AR is our centerpiece offensively and putting him on Barnes risks foul trouble for him and using up a lot of energy on the defensive end. On the other hand, making Barnes cover AR on the other end might result in foul trouble for Barnes. Getting Barnes in foul trouble was key for Kentucky as Barnes was hitting everything from 3 and had to sit for a while after picking up two fouls.

I think we'll probably see Dawkins start the UNC game at the 3 position and try to cover Barnes. If Dawkins has a hot shooting night then maybe we hope he can at least match HB offensively. If Dawkins comes out cold like in the OSU game, then perhaps we bring in Silent G to do his best on Barnes. I think it'll be a quick hook if Dawkins comes up short on the Barnes assignment.

IIRC, though, Dawkins did a pretty good job covering Barnes in at least one of the games last year. Maybe this isn't as big a potential problem as it might appear to be.

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 03:46 PM
IIRC, though, Dawkins did a pretty good job covering Barnes in at least one of the games last year. Maybe this isn't as big a potential problem as it might appear to be.

Which UNC game last year are you thinking of in which Dawkins covered Barnes well? Dawkins didn't play more than 10-15 mins in any of them.

slower
12-03-2011, 03:48 PM
Watching UNC closely for the first time, they have a very good team but are not great. I agree with some sentiments on this board that our frontcourt is not nearly as far away from their frontcourt as years past or as many of them would have you believe.

After watching today's game, I'd have to say that UNC has a CLEAR edge in the frontcourt. This is not last year's John Henson, folks. It's just one game, true, but I was pretty impressed.

phaedrus
12-03-2011, 03:57 PM
IIRC, though, Dawkins did a pretty good job covering Barnes in at least one of the games last year. Maybe this isn't as big a potential problem as it might appear to be.

The big danger of a height mismatch on the perimeter is not that the tall guard will shoot jumpshots over a shorter guard, but that the tall guard will post up the shorter guard. A contested jump shot is a tough shot, even with a 4" height advantage. Given that, I'm not sure Barnes has the versatility and skill-set to really take advantage of a defender like Andre. If Barnes is going to settle for long step-back jumpers, I'm ok with that no matter who's guarding him.

Kedsy
12-03-2011, 03:58 PM
Which UNC game last year are you thinking of in which Dawkins covered Barnes well? Dawkins didn't play more than 10-15 mins in any of them.

Are you suggesting Andre couldn't have covered Barnes well during his 12 to 15 minutes? In three games against us last year, Barnes shot 4 for 13 from 3-point range. Obviously a big part of that was Kyle's defense, but when Kyle was out, Andre guarded HB. I agree with MCFinARL that Andre did a pretty good job defensively during that time.

1 24 90
12-03-2011, 03:59 PM
I did, in fact.

Who would you put in front of them? UNC certainly played well today, but abnormally good 3pt shooting made it a lot closer than it would have been otherwise. Uconn isn't really good....even their wins have looked pretty bad.....they beat a vanderbilt team who played very well IMO.

Honestly it comes down to who else is better? and there just aren't that many really good teams outside (IMO) the top 3, or to put it better, there are lots of teams there, but i think that UK OSU and SU are head and shoulders above right now.

I was asking out of curiosity and I totally agree about who is available to put ahead of them? The top 3 do seem like the best right now. I thought Vandy totally gave that game away and look like the "softest"/most mentally fragile team out there. Maybe it's because their center is still out.

I'm surprised that you don't include Duke in the teams you mentioned. 7-1 against the schedule played is impressive to me even with the debacle on Tuesday night.

jipops
12-03-2011, 04:03 PM
After watching today's game, I'd have to say that UNC has a CLEAR edge in the frontcourt. This is not last year's John Henson, folks. It's just one game, true, but I was pretty impressed.

I was impressed as well. Sure each team may have some weaknesses to address, but the skill and athletic talent on both is truly outstanding. I still see these 2 as being the top dogs in terms of their ceiling.

TruBlu
12-03-2011, 04:09 PM
Is it too late for UNC to go undefeated?

Well, they were not undefeated in November, and now are not undefeated in December. Here's hoping they are not undefeated any month, except for April when they are 0 - 0.

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 04:21 PM
Are you suggesting Andre couldn't have covered Barnes well during his 12 to 15 minutes? In three games against us last year, Barnes shot 4 for 13 from 3-point range. Obviously a big part of that was Kyle's defense, but when Kyle was out, Andre guarded HB. I agree with MCFinARL that Andre did a pretty good job defensively during that time.

In my estimation Andre was nowhere near Kyle's effectiveness as a defender, including in the three UNC games. However, I do concede that Andre (as well as the entire team) brought a higher level of energy to the UNC games last year, except in the away game when Nolan carried us in a losing effort.

Even if you can point to short bursts of energetic defense by Andre, nevertheless I am quite pessimistic about his ability in starter's minutes to adequately cover Barnes.

If Mike G shows defensive ability, Andre might be better for us in a Sixth Man role against SFs like Barnes and Kidd-Gilchrist, when he can maintain short bursts of energetic defense and perhaps bring some instant offense.

Kedsy
12-03-2011, 04:27 PM
In my estimation Andre was nowhere near Kyle's effectiveness as a defender, including in the three UNC games.

I don't believe anybody thinks Andre was anywhere near Kyle's effectiveness as a defender. MCFinARL said Andre "did a pretty good job covering Barnes in at least one of the games last year," and you appeared to disagree with him. I was just saying that I think MCFinARL was right.

I also don't get why you think Barnes will be such a headache to guard. He seems mostly to hang outside and take threes. Sort of like Andre, actually. Against Kentucky today, Barnes didn't shoot a free throw (although admittedly over the course of the season he has shot a decent amount of them).

ChicagoHeel
12-03-2011, 04:34 PM
A disappointing loss to the say the least, especially the way it ended. Still, there are a lot of positives we can take away from this game. Overall, losing to a talented UK team that played well is okay. Like most reasonable UNC fans, I thought we were the best team coming in to the season, but recognized our lead was slim, so I am not t upset that we have dropped a couple. I didn't expect the year to be a cakewalk. E positives....

1. We played good defense. UK earned their points. They are a really talented team and I thought they played well given their youth. They had very few turnovers and a lot of patience on the offensive end.
2. Our three point shooting. With Hairston, Bullock, and Barnes we should be a good three point shooting team and today we were, although not so much in the second half. If we get the inside-outside game going consistently like we did today we will be hard to beat.
3. Marshall looking to score. He hit some key shots and then later was able to use the pump fake to create space. He doesn't need to score a lot, but has to look to score more than he has the first few games. I've always thought that he has the skills to be a decent scorer and I am pleased to see him looking to shoot.


There are some areas of concern.

1. Zeller's tendency to lose the ball. The second half of last year I thought he shed the soft label, but he is struggling this year. He scored well today but the TOs and near TOs were costly.
2. TOs. We make too many unforced errors. Give UK's defense credit, they are athletic and quick, but we just tossed some away, as we have all year. Today, that neutralized our success from the three.
3. Barnes off the dribble. I thought he would improve in this area, but so far I haven't seen much. He needs to get to the line and pull in a few more rebounds. I get nervous whenever he looks to drive.

Having watched all of our games and a few Duke games, I would say the margin between us is still pretty significant, but that is a topic for a later date...

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 04:43 PM
I don't believe anybody thinks Andre was anywhere near Kyle's effectiveness as a defender. MCFinARL said Andre "did a pretty good job covering Barnes in at least one of the games last year," and you appeared to disagree with him. I was just saying that I think MCFinARL was right.

I also don't get why you think Barnes will be such a headache to guard. He seems mostly to hang outside and take threes. Sort of like Andre, actually. Against Kentucky today, Barnes didn't shoot a free throw (although admittedly over the course of the season he has shot a decent amount of them).

Saying Dawkins was "pretty good" defensively against Barnes is overstating things. Saying Kyle was "pretty good" defensively against Barnes would be accurate, and in my opinion you cannot equate the job the two did.

Have you been watching Barnes lately? Give him a shorter slow defender like Andre and he'll pop in jump shots all day. In fact, Barnes is actually pretty good at getting good shots off even with someone in his face.

I'm not trying to diss on Andre in particular, let's just be realistic about his defense to date as well as about Barnes' ability.

And I'm not discounting our own chances against UNC. I like our ability to defend them everywhere except Barnes. I can easily foresee a game where we play them straight up or better at every position except the three, and UNC wins due to Barnes hitting jump shot after jump shot over his defender.

Bob Green
12-03-2011, 04:44 PM
Having watched all of our games and a few Duke games, I would say the margin between us is still pretty significant, but that is a topic for a later date...

I agree, Duke is a much more disciplined team than Carolina. Duke also is a better 3 point shooting team and appears to have a slightly better bench. This is probably why Carolina has lost twice as many games.

hurleyfor3
12-03-2011, 04:45 PM
A disappointing loss to the say the least, especially the way it ended. Still, there are a lot of positives we can take away from this game. Overall, losing to a talented UK team that played well is okay. Like most reasonable UNC fans, I thought we were the best team coming in to the season, but recognized our lead was slim, so I am not t upset that we have dropped a couple. I didn't expect the year to be a cakewalk. E positives....

The Unlv loss would worry me much, much more, as a flat performance against an inspired opponent. You know, the way we go out in the NCAAs most of the time.

Bob Green
12-03-2011, 04:47 PM
And I'm not discounting our own chances against UNC. I like our ability to defend them everywhere except Barnes. I can easily foresee a game where we play them straight up or better at every position except the three, and UNC wins due to Barnes hitting jump shot after jump shot over his defender.

In order to make jump shot after jump shot, Barnes has to have the ball. The key to beating Carolina will be to "Cut the head off the Monster" by clamping down on Kendall Marshall and disrupting the offensive flow of the Tar Heels. We need to force Coach Williams into a position of having to make in-game adjustments.

Newton_14
12-03-2011, 04:55 PM
Saying Dawkins was "pretty good" defensively against Barnes is overstating things. Saying Kyle was "pretty good" defensively against Barnes would be accurate, and in my opinion you cannot equate the job the two did.

Have you been watching Barnes lately? Give him a shorter slow defender like Andre and he'll pop in jump shots all day. In fact, Barnes is actually pretty good at getting good shots off even with someone in his face.

I'm not trying to diss on Andre in particular, let's just be realistic about his defense to date as well as about Barnes' ability.

And I'm not discounting our own chances against UNC. I like our ability to defend them everywhere except Barnes. I can easily foresee a game where we play them straight up or better at every position except the three, and UNC wins due to Barnes hitting jump shot after jump shot over his defender.

Andre played good defense against Barnes in the loss at Chapel Hill. Pretty sure that is what the OP (McF) was referring to. Not hyperbole. Also, like Kedsy said, Barnes has turned into a jumpshooter. If you can stay in is grill (easier said than done, but doable) and force him to drive, he struggles.

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 04:56 PM
In order to make jump shot after jump shot, Barnes has to have the ball. The key to beating Carolina will be to "Cut the head off the Monster" by clamping down on Kendall Marshall and disrupting the offensive flow of the Tar Heels.

I agree about disrupting Marshall.

To my mind the keys to our entire season are two: (1) Austin Rivers' continuing to develop and exploit his offensive talents and (2) we have got to get better as a team defensively. We have the tools to be a very good defensive team especially on the interior but we have a ways to go.

I can't wait to see how good AR is in March.

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 05:04 PM
Andre played good defense against Barnes in the loss at Chapel Hill. Pretty sure that is what the OP (McF) was referring to. Not hyperbole. Also, like Kedsy said, Barnes has turned into a jumpshooter. If you can stay in is grill (easier said than done, but doable) and force him to drive, he struggles.

I haven't seen Andre consistently get into anyone's grill, much less an elite player like Barnes.

Which is not to say that Andre does not end up being up our best solution at the 3, taking into account the totality of strengths and weaknesses.

weezie
12-03-2011, 05:10 PM
I generally enjoy a Tar Heel loss, but their loss to Kentucky is somehow unsatisfying.

Signed,
Conflicted

Fine by me, I'll take it!

gumbomoop
12-03-2011, 05:25 PM
Against Kentucky, Harrison Barnes was 4-5 on 3PT FGs, but only 1-7 on 2PT FGs. The key to guarding Barnes is to force him to put the ball on the floor for more than one dribble.


Two rebounds, and no free throws. He was turned into nothing more than a three-point specialist.


I'm not sure Barnes has the versatility and skill-set to really take advantage of a defender like Andre. If Barnes is going to settle for long step-back jumpers, I'm ok with that no matter who's guarding him.


Barnes off the dribble. I thought he would improve in this area, but so far I haven't seen much. He needs to get to the line and pull in a few more rebounds. I get nervous whenever he looks to drive.

Looking at this year's Heels during summer and preseason, my assumption was that a, probably the, key to just how good they'd be was HB's summer work on his handle. So far, there's little evidence either that it's substantially improved or that HB himself thinks it's substantially improved.

I think HB intends to be the clutch go-to guy, but limiting himself to 3-bombs and single-dribble pull-ups may [and I hope] not suffice.

Have to admit, I don't get it. HB is a powerful wing, and with a better handle, he would be close to unstoppable; he's already tough enough to deal with.

I will, if reluctantly, respect Roy a bit more if I see him pushing HB in upcoming, pre-ACC games, to drive more, to find out whether his handle is a strength or weakness.

While I don't expect HB to become nothing more than a 3-bomber, and while I admire his overall skill-set, the observations in the above tag quotes are accurate. Wishing ChicagoHeel no ill, I do hope Heel fans will continue to be a tad uneasy when HB puts the ball on the floor for that 2d and 3d dribble.

I cannot believe HB will limit himself. He seems admirably disciplined and determined to push himself to become a complete player. Right now, he's very talented, but not a complete player.

OldSchool
12-03-2011, 06:07 PM
Looking at this year's Heels during summer and preseason, my assumption was that a, probably the, key to just how good they'd be was HB's summer work on his handle. So far, there's little evidence either that it's substantially improved or that HB himself thinks it's substantially improved.

I think HB intends to be the clutch go-to guy, but limiting himself to 3-bombs and single-dribble pull-ups may [and I hope] not suffice.

Have to admit, I don't get it. HB is a powerful wing, and with a better handle, he would be close to unstoppable; he's already tough enough to deal with.

I will, if reluctantly, respect Roy a bit more if I see him pushing HB in upcoming, pre-ACC games, to drive more, to find out whether his handle is a strength or weakness.

While I don't expect HB to become nothing more than a 3-bomber, and while I admire his overall skill-set, the observations in the above tag quotes are accurate. Wishing ChicagoHeel no ill, I do hope Heel fans will continue to be a tad uneasy when HB puts the ball on the floor for that 2d and 3d dribble.

I cannot believe HB will limit himself. He seems admirably disciplined and determined to push himself to become a complete player. Right now, he's very talented, but not a complete player.

Personality has something to do with it, in my view. Compare Austin Rivers: whenever he has the ball on a basketball court he is thinking like George S. Patton: attack, attack, attack. You can say the same thing about Kobe or Wade.

HB just has a different personality. Reminds me a little of LeBron James, how at times one wonders why he doesn't attack the rim more.

sporthenry
12-03-2011, 06:18 PM
I did, in fact.

Who would you put in front of them? UNC certainly played well today, but abnormally good 3pt shooting made it a lot closer than it would have been otherwise. Uconn isn't really good....even their wins have looked pretty bad.....they beat a vanderbilt team who played very well IMO.

Honestly it comes down to who else is better? and there just aren't that many really good teams outside (IMO) the top 3, or to put it better, there are lots of teams there, but i think that UK OSU and SU are head and shoulders above right now.

Well either way Louisville should not be in the discussion as the nation's best so you should have lumped them in with everyone else and not at #4. I'd still throw UNC in the top 4 although I have yet to see much of Syracuse play so I'll still be skeptic. But overall that is the problem with this year is after the first few teams and this early in the year, there is little difference between Uconn, Baylor, Duke, Florida, Xavier, Louisville, etc. Now it comes down to coaching and development. Everyone is high on Baylor but they haven't played anyone and lot of questions about how Perry Jones and Q. Miller can play together. Xavier has no size. Wisconsin is always a solid team but rely on the 3 more than us and if you shut down Taylor they appear to struggle. And I think everyone knows about Duke's questions. Perhaps we have a few more questions than the other teams but I'd put our talent on the court up against any of those teams and I have a little faith in our coach.

uh_no
12-03-2011, 06:46 PM
I was asking out of curiosity and I totally agree about who is available to put ahead of them? The top 3 do seem like the best right now. I thought Vandy totally gave that game away and look like the "softest"/most mentally fragile team out there. Maybe it's because their center is still out.

I'm surprised that you don't include Duke in the teams you mentioned. 7-1 against the schedule played is impressive to me even with the debacle on Tuesday night.

thanks for calling it out. Unintentional oversight :P

and to sporthenry: spot on.....that probably would have been a better way to put it.....and you're completely right, it comes down to who improves the most throughout the year

I would argue that from a talent standpoint, duke and uconn are probably the two teams in that group with the highest ceilings.

jipops
12-03-2011, 07:42 PM
HB just has a different personality. Reminds me a little of LeBron James, how at times one wonders why he doesn't attack the rim more.

I'm a little miffed as well at why HB doesn't attack the rim more often. Singler drove the lane more and he didn't have the quickness nor strength of HB and wasn't of superior ball-handling ability either. Perhaps it may have a little to do with the talented bigs UNC employs clogging up the middle, Duke has not had this kind of roster make-up. Even so, it is interesting to speculate that with the type of talent UNC has in the frontcourt, - is HB actually prevented in showcasing or even developing the type of talent he will need to meet expectations at the next level? I'm not saying this is the case, but there could be speculation there. It's not as if Zeller isn't capable of being reliable from 12ft. Just think of the kind of criticisms that would be handed down on the Duke staff if HB were to be hovering around the perimeter jacking up 3's in a Duke uni as he does in the pale blue. I don't recall Deng, being of similar size and similar ball-handling ability as HB with less athleticism, as being someone who didn't drive and only hovered around the perimeter. Ofcourse, Deng wasn't the kind of long-range shooter Barnes is either, but he was a pretty good option.

throatybeard
12-03-2011, 08:19 PM
He never could catch the ball and WHY he constantly brings the ball to waste level is beyond me.

The expense of spirit in a waste of shame is lust in action.

jv001
12-03-2011, 09:27 PM
I generally enjoy a Tar Heel loss, but their loss to Kentucky is somehow unsatisfying.

Signed,
Conflicted

Yeh, but I won't have to look at all that unc attire in Church tomorrow. They win, they wear it,they lose and they don't(fair weather fans). GoDuke!

Billy Dat
12-03-2011, 09:43 PM
I just watched the game on DVR and found it hugely entertaining. Watching a college game with so much pro-level talent is a rare treat, even if both teams are sworn enemies. Still, like last year's regional final, I was 100% pulling for UK without a second's hesitation so not all enemies are created equal.

When I consider that Kentucky grabbed #1 before the start of December, and just held serve against the former number 1, I shake my head in awe. They have so much flippin talent that it really is insane. Teague didn't show me much today, but Kidd-Gilchrest was great, Jones carried them in the first half, Lamb hit HUGE shots down the stretch, the post doubling of Zeller was awesome, Whitjer looks like a serious player in his limited minutes, Davis had the game saving block (count me in as a unibrow fan), Miller is tough...and they don't even really know how to play yet. They showed a tremendous amount of toughness in that game, taking every punch the Heels threw and pushing forward until they finally got the lead. Very impressed with them.

As for the Heels, I agree with those who thinks Barnes is boring and lacking fire. He had foul trouble so it wasn't a vintage game, and he has hit big shots, but he largely came up empty in some big posessions down the stretch. That being said, they are tough. I really admire Marshall, and he was nailing 3s today. I think Zeller is tough, he was getting doubled every time. Henson is better. Hairston and Bullock were nailing big shots. Strickland didn't do much. I think McAdoo is a real talent but there are too many guys ahead of him. Still and all, they were mostly in the game because of their 3s...kind of felt like vintage Duke, but that's not what they're known for.

I think both teams would give us big problems in a series, but we can beat either on a given night. I think both have higher ceilings than ours, with Kentuckys being a few feet higher than the Heels. Very fun game to watch, though.

Newton_14
12-03-2011, 10:18 PM
Looking at this year's Heels during summer and preseason, my assumption was that a, probably the, key to just how good they'd be was HB's summer work on his handle. So far, there's little evidence either that it's substantially improved or that HB himself thinks it's substantially improved.

I think HB intends to be the clutch go-to guy, but limiting himself to 3-bombs and single-dribble pull-ups may [and I hope] not suffice.

Have to admit, I don't get it. HB is a powerful wing, and with a better handle, he would be close to unstoppable; he's already tough enough to deal with.

I will, if reluctantly, respect Roy a bit more if I see him pushing HB in upcoming, pre-ACC games, to drive more, to find out whether his handle is a strength or weakness.

While I don't expect HB to become nothing more than a 3-bomber, and while I admire his overall skill-set, the observations in the above tag quotes are accurate. Wishing ChicagoHeel no ill, I do hope Heel fans will continue to be a tad uneasy when HB puts the ball on the floor for that 2d and 3d dribble.

I cannot believe HB will limit himself. He seems admirably disciplined and determined to push himself to become a complete player. Right now, he's very talented, but not a complete player.

When it comes to handling, and making awesome moves off the dribble, HB just doesn't have it my favorite Gumbo Internet friend.. Not dissing him for choosing the wrong blue or anything like that. He just can't do it. He tried a few times today and got stripped or bogged down. It's weird because he has good jumping ability, and length, but his overall athleticism is average at best. Makes so sense. He does have a deadly jumper with a high release, and shoots it well from either spotting up, or off the dribble. If he had a good crossover or ability to spin or juke in traffic, he would be unstoppable. For some reason though, he just does not seem to have that ability.

tommy
12-04-2011, 02:39 AM
Watching Kentucky today was interesting. A couple of things surprised me. First of all, they did a lot of standing around on offense, with one guy pounding it into the floor and the others waiting to see what happened next. I didn't see a dynamic, motion-filled offense.

Second, Anthony Davis, while a terrific defender and rebounder, with an incredibly long body, didn't show me much offensively at all. I didn't see any mature moves (I know, he's a freshman in like his 8th game or so) and he doesn't have much in the way of strength. He's a force because of that body and his athleticism, but if you just put a body on him and block him out, he's not going to hurt you much at the offensive end, at least at this point in his development.

But. This team has a ton of weapons, and they're the kind of weapons that would be very difficult for this year's Duke team to combat, IMO. They penetrate with the dribble a lot. Defending against dribble penetration has been a weak point so far for the Devils. Often in the past we have had a point guard who could really pressure the ball and make it difficult for the opponent to initiate its offense. We don't have anyone doing that consistently on this team. Then, our strong defensive teams in the past have had multiple guys with the ability to get into the passing lanes and deny passes to the wings. We also don't have anyone doing that consistently so far.

Our strength defensively has been defending the post, which is not where Kentucky attacks primarily. Were we to play them, I wouldn't worry much about their bigs. Mason Plumlee is very long and athletic, just like Davis , except with two more years of experience and two more years of strength work under his belt. Terrence Jones is a very good player, but today he seemed to spend as much time shooting outside jumpers as he did working in the paint. If he did that against us, Ryan Kelly could hang with him. If he went inside more, I see no reason while Miles Plumlee couldn't muscle with him.

But the penetration of Teague and Gilchrist, and the shooting of Lamb and Miller, would be tough for our outside guys to handle.

In sum, it'd be a pretty tough matchup for the Devils, one I would not expect to win unless we were playing our best at both ends.

DUKIE V(A)
12-04-2011, 04:17 AM
From what I have seen in college hoops so early in the season, KY and UNC definitely look to be top 4 teams along with Syracuse and Ohio State. I would put Duke at 5 of the teams I have seen but I think the top 4 are a clear notch better on a neutral floor (RIGHT NOW). (I have not seen all teams including Baylor and Marquette which I have heard are very good.) I think KY has the higher ceiling (and the highest of any team) and is more talented and athletic than Carolina. I doubt they reach their ceiling. An impatient, bad shooting night will very likely befall them in March and that will be that for KY. Carolina has more experience and better teamwork. It's not a good sign for Carolina that they shot so well from the outside and still lost to such a young team so early in the season. I did not see the UNLV game, but these games give me hope that the Tar Heels are vulnerable and far, far from unbeatable. They would be in serious trouble if Marshall got into foul trouble against a quality team in the NCAAs. In my mind, he is the key player on that team (and I vastly underrated him early last year). He's very good (though he can be had defensively).

One weakness of each team appears to be 3 point shooting. In order to hang with either team, it is necessary to play outstanding defense, force tough shots, and hit the boards. A team that I think could present each with problems is Syracuse. They are very long and athletic. Of course, THE CUSE will be a tough match up for anyone. The Orange Defense really impresses me. They look very tough to score on.

As for Duke...in order to beat these teams...1. Mason needs to stay out of foul trouble. 2. We need to hit the boards. 3. We need to share the ball, be patient, and take good shots.

Right now, I think we much up better with Carolina than KY since I think they could potentially struggle to stop Curry and Rivers.

sagegrouse
12-04-2011, 06:37 AM
Our Front Page guy takes Harrison Barnes apart like a cheap watch. An excellent read: he's a perimeter player that not only won't take his man to the basket but also won't go inside to get the rebound and make the putback. On the key play at the end, he called for the ball and, when he didn't get it, stood around pouting and failed to after for the blocked shot or to make a foul on UKy when there was still time. Two rebounds, zero FTs attempted, zero assists in 24 minutes.

Good work, Julio.

sagegrouse

roywhite
12-04-2011, 07:56 AM
Our Front Page guy takes Harrison Barnes apart like a cheap watch. An excellent read: he's a perimeter player that not only won't take his man to the basket but also won't go inside to get the rebound and make the putback. On the key play at the end, he called for the ball and, when he didn't get it, stood around pouting and failed to after for the blocked shot or to make a foul on UKy when there was still time. Two rebounds, zero FTs attempted, zero assists in 24 minutes.

Good work, Julio.

sagegrouse

Oh, I liked that. Thanks to Julio and thanks for pointing it out.

Denny Kuiper adds in his Kuiper's 3-Pointer piece (http://www.accsports.com/articles/2011120411719/kuipers-3-pointer-unc-kentucky.php)


You have to wonder why Harrison Barnes is not in the low post a little more often. He has the size to score on smaller defenders, but seldom tries.

Faison1
12-04-2011, 08:17 AM
Oh, I liked that. Thanks to Julio and thanks for pointing it out.

Denny Kuiper adds in his Kuiper's 3-Pointer piece (http://www.accsports.com/articles/2011120411719/kuipers-3-pointer-unc-kentucky.php)

Not to beat a dead horse, but wasn't Barnes on crutches earlier in the week?

Reflecting back on yesterday's game, it seems to me that we will not only need our frontcourt to continue their growth in the "toughness" department, but we'll also need our point guard to consistently break down their defender and create opportunities for others.

Both Teague and Marshall were good at doing that. Our guys looked a little weak doing it against OSU...granted, Aaron Craft was in the mix.

Maybe Quinn continues to grow in that role? Not sure if Seth will ever have the ability. Maybe he will.

Duvall
12-04-2011, 09:08 AM
Not to beat a dead horse, but wasn't Barnes on crutches earlier in the week?

Reflecting back on yesterday's game, it seems to me that we will not only need our frontcourt to continue their growth in the "toughness" department, but we'll also need our point guard to consistently break down their defender and create opportunities for others.

Both Teague and Marshall were good at doing that. Our guys looked a little weak doing it against OSU...granted, Aaron Craft was in the mix.

Maybe Quinn continues to grow in that role? Not sure if Seth will ever have the ability. Maybe he will.

Continues to grow?

oldnavy
12-04-2011, 09:13 AM
Our Front Page guy takes Harrison Barnes apart like a cheap watch. An excellent read: he's a perimeter player that not only won't take his man to the basket but also won't go inside to get the rebound and make the putback. On the key play at the end, he called for the ball and, when he didn't get it, stood around pouting and failed to after for the blocked shot or to make a foul on UKy when there was still time. Two rebounds, zero FTs attempted, zero assists in 24 minutes.

Good work, Julio.

sagegrouse

Ditto, with one thing to add, I don't think that HB is a very good defender. I noticed on several plays that HB would get screened off his man too easily. Again, it fits with his propensity to avoid contact. He hardly ever fights through a screen, but rather settles for going under most of them.

Near the end of the game when UNC really needed a stop, he went under a screen and which left his man wide open for a shot around the FT line which he made uncontested.

Also, he seems to decide beforehand that he is going to shoot regardless of game situation or opportunity.

I have said before that I think he is self absorbed and his end game antics yesterday added to my belief.

gumbomoop
12-04-2011, 10:07 AM
For all my puzzlement at HB's handle issue, the Heels are very good, a top-4 team right now and likely at season's end [along with tOSU, UK, and, what the heck, Duke]. It's not as if they were dismantled by UK in the way the Devils were by the Buckeyes.

So, a mini-soap opera has developed around HB's disinclination to dribble-drive [and rebound]. It's still early enough in the season that we/I might be jumping to the conclusion that his summer handle-project failed. But if Roy isn't a tad worried about HB's passivity - and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist provided a pretty striking counter-example yesterday - then Roy is whistling past the graveyard. Will Roy coach HB over the next few games to get to the basket. Will the coach coach? Will the player accept the suggestion that he must broaden his game, to help the team, not to mention himself?

Here are a few scenarios re this mini-soap opera:

1. In coming weeks, HB gets to the rim more, gets more FTs, more rebounds. This means either (a) that Roy has pushed HB to do this, or (b) HB, a driven guy, has on his own decided to drive. It also means (c) that his handle is substantially improved, and that (d) early assessments to the contrary are incorrect.

2. In coming weeks, HB tries to get to the rim more, with less than stellar results: some success but also some TOs, awkwardness, strips, frustration. This means the early suspicions are accurate: his handle is the most obvious flaw in his skill-set.

3. Nothing changes. HB is mostly a jump shooter, leaves the paint stuff to others, including rebounding. This means: (a) Roy can't coach, or (b) HB is too stubborn for his own good, or (c) HB knows his handle isn't good enough.

4. HB transfers to UCLA.

I prefer scenario #4, for reasons too numerous to list.

Faison1
12-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Continues to grow?

I used that phrase because I didn't want to get into a debate about whether he should start or not. My guess is that if his knee gets better, and he learns how to defend, we might be better off with his creative skills on the offensive side.

That's not to knock Seth. Seth has a different set of skills.

Time will tell.

OldPhiKap
12-04-2011, 11:45 AM
4. HB transfers to UCLA.


"UCLA -- the Carolina of the East"


I thiink UCLA would love him but have already hit their quota of ex-Heels (a/k/a "retreads").

Bob Green
12-04-2011, 11:49 AM
"UCLA -- the Carolina of the East"


I thiink UCLA would love him but have already hit their quota of ex-Heels (a/k/a "retreads").

Your map is upside down, that should be the Carolina of the West.

uh_no
12-04-2011, 11:59 AM
Your map is upside down, that should be the Carolina of the West.

they're using Big East geographical semantics.

OldPhiKap
12-04-2011, 12:13 PM
Your map is upside down, that should be the Carolina of the West.

I go the other way.

Olympic Fan
12-04-2011, 12:33 PM
In view of the comments in this thread and on the front page today about Mr. Barnes, I wonder if anybody saw the note in Luke Winn's weekly power rankings on SI.com.

He was talking about the monumental recruiting battle that UNC and Duke waged for Harrison Barnes and how it was hailed as a great victory when the Heels got Barnes -- and it was (although it turned out not to be the crushing blow for the Duke program that it looked like at the time).

What Winn points out is that Barnes had a prep teammate at Ames who has turned out to be the player that Barnes was supposed to be .... Doug McDermott is a 6-7, 215 wing who was under the recruiting radar (not sure of his ranking, but didn't make the rsci top 100). He signed with Creighton, where he plays for his father (who was an assistant at Northern Iowa when Doug played with Barnes in Ames).

Last year as a freshman, Doug McDermott averaged 14.9 ppg and 7.2 rebounds for a 23-win Creighton team. Now Barnes averaged 15.7 ppg and 5.8 for a 29-win UNC team, but here's the kicker -- McDermott hit 52.5 percent from the field, 40.5 percent from 3-point range and 74.6 percent from the foul line -- Barnes was 42.3 from the floor and 34.4 from the 3-point line and 75.0 from the FT line.

And unlike Barnes, McDermott has significantly improved his numbers so far this season. Creighton is off to a 6-0 start with McDermott averaging 23.7 ppg., 8.5 rpg., shooting 63.0 percent from the field, 56.5 percent from 3-point range and 86.7 percent from the FT line.

Niow, you could argue that Barnes has more teammates to share the scoring and rebounding load, but if that was the case, shouldn't he be MORE efficident, not less? And he's MUCH less efficient than McDermott -- Winn notes that his efficiency score of 128 is closer to Jared Sullinger at 130 than to Barnes at 105.

I'm not really suggesting that Barnes is a fraud, only that he has not yet become the great player that we all thought he would be. That still could happen -- I remember how greatly he improved late last season. But SO FAR he's a good, but not a great college player. So far, he's not as good as his high school teammate has been.

oldnavy
12-04-2011, 01:44 PM
In view of the comments in this thread and on the front page today about Mr. Barnes, I wonder if anybody saw the note in Luke Winn's weekly power rankings on SI.com.

He was talking about the monumental recruiting battle that UNC and Duke waged for Harrison Barnes and how it was hailed as a great victory when the Heels got Barnes -- and it was (although it turned out not to be the crushing blow for the Duke program that it looked like at the time).

What Winn points out is that Barnes had a prep teammate at Ames who has turned out to be the player that Barnes was supposed to be .... Doug McDermott is a 6-7, 215 wing who was under the recruiting radar (not sure of his ranking, but didn't make the rsci top 100). He signed with Creighton, where he plays for his father (who was an assistant at Northern Iowa when Doug played with Barnes in Ames).

Last year as a freshman, Doug McDermott averaged 14.9 ppg and 7.2 rebounds for a 23-win Creighton team. Now Barnes averaged 15.7 ppg and 5.8 for a 29-win UNC team, but here's the kicker -- McDermott hit 52.5 percent from the field, 40.5 percent from 3-point range and 74.6 percent from the foul line -- Barnes was 42.3 from the floor and 34.4 from the 3-point line and 75.0 from the FT line.

And unlike Barnes, McDermott has significantly improved his numbers so far this season. Creighton is off to a 6-0 start with McDermott averaging 23.7 ppg., 8.5 rpg., shooting 63.0 percent from the field, 56.5 percent from 3-point range and 86.7 percent from the FT line.

Niow, you could argue that Barnes has more teammates to share the scoring and rebounding load, but if that was the case, shouldn't he be MORE efficident, not less? And he's MUCH less efficient than McDermott -- Winn notes that his efficiency score of 128 is closer to Jared Sullinger at 130 than to Barnes at 105.

I'm not really suggesting that Barnes is a fraud, only that he has not yet become the great player that we all thought he would be. That still could happen -- I remember how greatly he improved late last season. But SO FAR he's a good, but not a great college player. So far, he's not as good as his high school teammate has been.


Well to be somewhat fair to HB he was hyped beyond belief so it was going to be impossible for him to be as good as advertised.

HB got better last like the entire team did when LD2 got benched and Marshall took over the team.

I am not a Barnes fan at all... I am happy that he chose UNC because unless he played harder on defense and became a little less selfish on the offensive end, I am not sure I could pull for him.

moonpie23
12-04-2011, 01:45 PM
4. HB transfers to UCLA.

.

drinks on me.......

COYS
12-04-2011, 02:51 PM
In view of the comments in this thread and on the front page today about Mr. Barnes, I wonder if anybody saw the note in Luke Winn's weekly power rankings on SI.com.

He was talking about the monumental recruiting battle that UNC and Duke waged for Harrison Barnes and how it was hailed as a great victory when the Heels got Barnes -- and it was (although it turned out not to be the crushing blow for the Duke program that it looked like at the time).

What Winn points out is that Barnes had a prep teammate at Ames who has turned out to be the player that Barnes was supposed to be .... Doug McDermott is a 6-7, 215 wing who was under the recruiting radar (not sure of his ranking, but didn't make the rsci top 100). He signed with Creighton, where he plays for his father (who was an assistant at Northern Iowa when Doug played with Barnes in Ames).

Last year as a freshman, Doug McDermott averaged 14.9 ppg and 7.2 rebounds for a 23-win Creighton team. Now Barnes averaged 15.7 ppg and 5.8 for a 29-win UNC team, but here's the kicker -- McDermott hit 52.5 percent from the field, 40.5 percent from 3-point range and 74.6 percent from the foul line -- Barnes was 42.3 from the floor and 34.4 from the 3-point line and 75.0 from the FT line.

And unlike Barnes, McDermott has significantly improved his numbers so far this season. Creighton is off to a 6-0 start with McDermott averaging 23.7 ppg., 8.5 rpg., shooting 63.0 percent from the field, 56.5 percent from 3-point range and 86.7 percent from the FT line.

Niow, you could argue that Barnes has more teammates to share the scoring and rebounding load, but if that was the case, shouldn't he be MORE efficident, not less? And he's MUCH less efficient than McDermott -- Winn notes that his efficiency score of 128 is closer to Jared Sullinger at 130 than to Barnes at 105.

I'm not really suggesting that Barnes is a fraud, only that he has not yet become the great player that we all thought he would be. That still could happen -- I remember how greatly he improved late last season. But SO FAR he's a good, but not a great college player. So far, he's not as good as his high school teammate has been.

Great analysis by Winn. Thanks for sharing. Not only is Barnes a relatively inefficient offensive player (no assists, middling percentages and low free throw rate), he also has been far worse on the glass this season than last season. His offensive rating is a bit higher because he's shooting a bit better than he did last year, but the rest of his peripheral stats have taken a step back. I'm surprised scouts are still so high on him when it comes to the NBA draft. Obviously, he's a young player and he's got time to improve. I think he will. But I don't see him as an NBA star, by any means. Actually, the UNC player not getting enough attention is Henson, in my opinion. He has held down the fort on the defensive end despite the fact that none of their perimeter defenders are particularly good. He bore the brunt of a lot of the criticism during the glorious (from a Duke perspective) 09-10 season, but if UNC goes deep this year, it will be due in large part to Henson's improvement on both ends of the floor.

While we're talking efficiency stats, Kendall Marshall's assist numbers are incredible. His assist rate of 44.5 percent is impressive too. What is interesting, however, is that he has only been marginally more efficient than Barnes on the offensive end (107.9). The reason? Like Barnes and scoring on jumpers, Marshall ONLY gets assists. His turnover rate is extremely high (30%). Basically, if Marshall ends a possession for UNC, it has a 3 in 4 chance of being either an assist or a turnover. He is more likely to turn it over than to score. Granted, Marshall's playmaking is part of what is helping Henson and Zeller become efficient scorers, so you do have to look beyond the raw stats to judge Marshall's importance to the team, but nevertheless, it is clear that opposing defenses need to work hard to force Marshall to be a scorer. That is the last thing Marshall and UNC want because he is just not good at putting the ball in the hoop.

OldSchool
12-04-2011, 05:38 PM
I'm not really suggesting that Barnes is a fraud, only that he has not yet become the great player that we all thought he would be. That still could happen -- I remember how greatly he improved late last season. But SO FAR he's a good, but not a great college player. So far, he's not as good as his high school teammate has been.

I agree I think it's too much to say that Barnes is a fraud.

I do think he is ill-served by the coaching over there. I don't understand why they don't post him up more at the 3 position, like we did with Kyle. Maybe the thinking is that when you have Henson and Zeller, it never makes sense to pull them away to clear out Barnes in the post. But Barnes is a strong guy with good hands and shooting touch and should be able to score or get fouled almost at will posting up most small forwards he faces.

I think he'll be successful in the NBA and will be a starter for some team. I don't think any team will be looking for him to take his man off the dribble, but they'll expect him to hit his jump shots, including open 3s and get his share of rebounds. Someone compared him to Luol with perhaps a better jump shot, and that sounds about right.

Kedsy
12-04-2011, 05:43 PM
Someone compared him to Luol with perhaps a better jump shot, and that sounds about right.

Well, that would be a pretty good player.

Gthoma2a
12-04-2011, 05:55 PM
If he were smart, he would have gone into the draft last year. He had just pushed through during the last stanza of last season and people thought he had gotten over the nerves and was the player everyone said he was. Now, we get another season to see what flaws he has.

phaedrus
12-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Someone compared him to Luol with perhaps a better jump shot, and that sounds about right.

Except I think Luol is better in every other way.

COYS
12-04-2011, 10:54 PM
Except I think Luol is better in every other way.

If we're comparing freshman seasons, Luol's was definitely better. He scored more efficiently (110 offensive rating) rebounded more, played better defense, and even shot better from three (36%, which was slightly better than Barnes' 34.4 from last season). They are probably decently comparable, but Luol was a bit better getting to the rim in college and operated inside the arc more. Barnes definitely relies on his three point shot more. Of course, Deng played a lot more at the 4 than Barnes, so some of that might not be too surprising. At any rate, Luol had a better freshman year than Barnes.

oldnavy
12-05-2011, 07:00 AM
Roy's comment after the game explaining the no foul;

“It’s crazy to think, you’re 18, 19, 20, 21 years old -- and I knew we would foul. I’m screaming ‘foul’ … but we didn’t,’’ Williams said. “And the bottom line is, I need to do a better job coaching them, because we need to have some play like that. We need to be able to make a foul.”

Ya think? You really think that you should have a play for the end of the game? How about a timeout to set something up for your All American, Mr. Clutch HB? If there is one thing he seems to be able to do well is hit big shots. But, you call nothing and end up feeding the ball to the post where Zeller had been doubled up all game. It was just luck that Henson even got the ball to be able to shoot. Then, all your players to a man stand there and stop playing totally unaware of time on the clock.

"we need to have some play like that".... this is a Hall of Fame coach realizing that he needs to have an end of game strategy after the fact.... good thing the man can recruit, because I could go to just about any church league in the triangle and find a better in-game coach. It is truly unbelievable how inept he is at managing a game. But that is just Roy being Roy....

Kdogg
12-05-2011, 07:48 AM
Barnes definitely relies on his three point shot more. Of course, Deng played a lot more at the 4 than Barnes, so some of that might not be too surprising.

This may be sour grapes, but I think it's the reason Barnes picked UNC. DBR has pointed out Barnes disdain for contact and at Duke be would have spent at least sometime at the 4 spot. Roy Boy, on the other hand, has been know to promise players time at specific positions. (Yes recruit John Henson you can play the pereimeter although he could be great down low.)

dukeballboy88
12-05-2011, 09:38 AM
I think Roy is overrated as a recruiter. I could recruit if I were coaching at unc.

The best thing that couldve happened for the rest of the nation is Barnes and Zeller coming back to school. Barnes will get exposed again as to what he cant do wich might make his draft stock slip. That is a big deal because coming out of high school he was a lock to go #1 and now he might not be a lock for the top 5. That has to hurt recruiting any type of wing player for Roy, and Zeller is keeping McAdoo on the bench. Zeller is soft as twinkie filling and he couldnt keep Britney Griner off the boards. That dude from UNLV that had 18 boards against unc was 6'7" 195 lbs.

When I was watching the game on the boat against msu, I said if thats the #1 team then its anybodys ball game this year.

COYS
12-05-2011, 09:55 AM
This may be sour grapes, but I think it's the reason Barnes picked UNC. DBR has pointed out Barnes disdain for contact and at Duke be would have spent at least sometime at the 4 spot. Roy Boy, on the other hand, has been know to promise players time at specific positions. (Yes recruit John Henson you can play the pereimeter although he could be great down low.)

It's possible, but it seems that Barnes and his mother had always been pretty enamored with the idea of being a star at UNC. Honestly, we'll probably never really know the details, but I think it's safe to say that we Duke fans are pretty ok with how things have turned out since Barnes chose the wrong shade of blue.

OldPhiKap
12-05-2011, 10:07 AM
Barnes is a very good player. To call him a "fraud" is, IMHO, plain crazy. He showed last year that he can hit the clutch shot, and is not afraid to take it.

To be clear, I am extremely happy with the kids we have and would not trade any of them. Not for Barnes, not for anyone else. But I think the excitement over seeing him struggle in a certain game, certain stretch of games, or a certain situation cannot be extrapolated over too long a period. He started poorly last year, and then came on like a gangbuster.

Not to talk up a rival, but I think we're getting a bit overboard in places here.

$.02

Kimist
12-05-2011, 10:40 AM
It's possible, but it seems that Barnes and his mother had always been pretty enamored with the idea of being a star at UNC. Honestly, we'll probably never really know the details, but I think it's safe to say that we Duke fans are pretty ok with how things have turned out since Barnes chose the wrong shade of blue.

I certainly do not disagree with your post.

However, I have often wondered if there was not "something going on" between unc and HB that would fall into the characterization as "shady." From everything I recall, Coach K and his staff pretty well thought HB was a lock for attending Duke.

Inquiring minds would like to know....

COYS
12-05-2011, 10:41 AM
Barnes is a very good player. To call him a "fraud" is, IMHO, plain crazy. He showed last year that he can hit the clutch shot, and is not afraid to take it.

To be clear, I am extremely happy with the kids we have and would not trade any of them. Not for Barnes, not for anyone else. But I think the excitement over seeing him struggle in a certain game, certain stretch of games, or a certain situation cannot be extrapolated over too long a period. He started poorly last year, and then came on like a gangbuster.

Not to talk up a rival, but I think we're getting a bit overboard in places here.

$.02

I don't think it's overboard to provide balanced analysis of Barnes' game, which is good but not spectacular, particularly in any area beyond hunting his own shot. I think Barnes is a very dangerous and talented player. However, I don't think his performance to date justifies all the adoration, particularly from NBA GM's.

ChillinDuke
12-05-2011, 10:46 AM
I certainly do not disagree with your post.

However, I have often wondered if there was not "something going on" between unc and HB that would fall into the characterization as "shady." From everything I recall, Coach K and his staff pretty well thought HB was a lock for attending Duke.

Inquiring minds would like to know....

Nothing shady happened. Nothing offensively wrong happened.

Harrison Barnes chose the University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill over Duke University. It's that simple.

For those that find this incredibly hard to accept (and there certainly appear to be a lot on this board), you can call it "shady", "misleading", "downright evil intentions", "playing it close to the vest", "Jordan was in his ear", "Roy cast a spell", "Skype sent him an under the table endorsement", etc etc etc.

But the way I see it, it's pretty simple. Barnes wanted to go to UNC more than he wanted to go to Duke. Even if it was .00000000001% more, it was more. And he went there.

And that's fine as well as perfectly acceptable behavior.

Now, let's beat Colorado State!

- Chillin

BlueDevilBaby
12-05-2011, 11:19 AM
Lehigh University OBV

Don't you mean LC?

Class of '89. ;)

ChicagoHeel
12-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Roy's comment after the game explaining the no foul;

“It’s crazy to think, you’re 18, 19, 20, 21 years old -- and I knew we would foul. I’m screaming ‘foul’ … but we didn’t,’’ Williams said. “And the bottom line is, I need to do a better job coaching them, because we need to have some play like that. We need to be able to make a foul.”

Ya think? You really think that you should have a play for the end of the game? How about a timeout to set something up for your All American, Mr. Clutch HB? If there is one thing he seems to be able to do well is hit big shots. But, you call nothing and end up feeding the ball to the post where Zeller had been doubled up all game. It was just luck that Henson even got the ball to be able to shoot. Then, all your players to a man stand there and stop playing totally unaware of time on the clock.

"we need to have some play like that".... this is a Hall of Fame coach realizing that he needs to have an end of game strategy after the fact.... good thing the man can recruit, because I could go to just about any church league in the triangle and find a better in-game coach. It is truly unbelievable how inept he is at managing a game. But that is just Roy being Roy....

I think it is pretty clear UNC ran a play and that we pretty much got what we wanted. If you told me beforehand that the game would end with us down one-point and the ball cleanly passed down deep to Zeller, I'd take it. It's a pretty typical way for us to run our offense and to close a game. Marshall to Zeller is how we beat Miami in the ACC tournament last year. Zeller had a few options- shoot or hit Barnes or Bullock on the outside. Unfortunately, Zeller is not playing up to his normal level and he lost the handle. He has to get back to a quick turn and shoot, rather than putting the ball on the floor. But I also credit UK's defense on him, and their interior defense overall, during that game.

As for not calling a timeout, that's debatable. I liked the call. Why give UK time to set their defense? It's not like Calipari is just going to be hanging out on the sideline while we draw up a play. Why risk the in-bounds play? You have a defense backpedaling, your best line-up is on the floor, and enough time to call a play from the sideline, so go for it.

The failure to foul at the end of the game was clearly a mental lapse and it's of course easy to blame it on the coach, but I've watched that ending about a million times and I think the players were just stunned by the fact that Henson got blocked and they lost track of the clock (i.e. they thought Henson was putting up a true buzzer beater). Of all ways for the play to fail, a block coming out of nowhere on a Henson jump shot was about the last anyone would expect- and that in part contributed to the mental lapse. It was really just a sensational defensive play. Again, you can't excuse the mistake, and the players should know to foul even if they think there is no time left, but I don't think it is evidence that Roy is "inept" at managing a game.

oldnavy
12-05-2011, 12:27 PM
I think it is pretty clear UNC ran a play and that we pretty much got what we wanted. If you told me beforehand that the game would end with us down one-point and the ball cleanly passed down deep to Zeller, I'd take it. It's a pretty typical way for us to run our offense and to close a game. Marshall to Zeller is how we beat Miami in the ACC tournament last year. Zeller had a few options- shoot or hit Barnes or Bullock on the outside. Unfortunately, Zeller is not playing up to his normal level and he lost the handle. He has to get back to a quick turn and shoot, rather than putting the ball on the floor. But I also credit UK's defense on him, and their interior defense overall, during that game.

As for not calling a timeout, that's debatable. I liked the call. Why give UK time to set their defense? It's not like Calipari is just going to be hanging out on the sideline while we draw up a play. Why risk the in-bounds play? You have a defense backpedaling, your best line-up is on the floor, and enough time to call a play from the sideline, so go for it.

The failure to foul at the end of the game was clearly a mental lapse and it's of course easy to blame it on the coach, but I've watched that ending about a million times and I think the players were just stunned by the fact that Henson got blocked and they lost track of the clock (i.e. they thought Henson was putting up a true buzzer beater). Of all ways for the play to fail, a block coming out of nowhere on a Henson jump shot was about the last anyone would expect- and that in part contributed to the mental lapse. It was really just a sensational defensive play. Again, you can't excuse the mistake, and the players should know to foul even if they think there is no time left, but I don't think it is evidence that Roy is "inept" at managing a game.

You can make the argument that it was best to not let UK set up on defense, etc.. But when your coach pretty much admits (as best he can) that the team wasn't prepared for that scenario (turn over with time on the clock) I think that is all the argument you need for calling a TO to go over it.

Look, I think Roy is a terrible game manager. Most UNC fans will probably disagree, but I have yet to see for myself or hear anyone give an example of him making end-game or in-game changes that directly resulted in a UNC win. Most of the time he does nothing. But then again, most of the time he wins.

Bluealum
12-05-2011, 01:20 PM
Barnes is a very good player. To call him a "fraud" is, IMHO, plain crazy. He showed last year that he can hit the clutch shot, and is not afraid to take it.

To be clear, I am extremely happy with the kids we have and would not trade any of them. Not for Barnes, not for anyone else. But I think the excitement over seeing him struggle in a certain game, certain stretch of games, or a certain situation cannot be extrapolated over too long a period. He started poorly last year, and then came on like a gangbuster.

Not to talk up a rival, but I think we're getting a bit overboard in places here.

$.02

This. I think there is too much exuberance with the current play of HB. Evaluating players against expectations heaped upon them is not fair (though he did encourage it, he was a teenager, go figure). He wants the big shot and there aren't many who do when it comes down to it. College exposes a players game and forces them to either develop or become specialists. HB is more specialist than complete player, but he is good.

Given HB's size, physique in high school, high IQ, and his jump shot, folks assumed his handle, rebounding, and toughness would follow. But things don't always follow. Look at Andre. He is physically gifted, has a silky jump shot but also lingers at the 3 point line and doesn't get after it the way many of our guards have in the past. Sans the hype I actually see a lot of similarities. Both need to develop a better handle, rebound better, display more tenacity, and attack the rim. Both also have incredible confidence in their shot which makes them great in the clutch. Neither coach has been able to markedly develop the other skills in these guys, despite all of their talent and potential, to date. Sometimes its just not in a players makeup and sometimes it takes a while to realize.

I think it was in HB's interest to go to Carolina because defense and intensity are valued less, relative to offensive skill, in Roy's style and demanded more in K's style. This is why Andre has such a short leash, while HB does not. Hopefully, Andre becomes motivated to become a more complete player as K demands, as I agree with all those who say that his development is key to fulfilling the potential of this team.

DUKIE V(A)
12-05-2011, 01:29 PM
As far as the HB vs. Luol comparison goes, I'd take Luol without hesitation over Barnes. He was better offensively, defensively, and on the glass than Barnes at the same time in their careers.

That said, and while I delight in his and Carolinas failures, I must admit that HB is a high quality player. He certainly has his limitations which I am sure have been noted by the NBA scouts. He will likely be more of a solid type player than a star at the next level, but barring injury he will likely have a long, solid (though unspectacular) NBA career. While his draft status has likely dropped some by his returning, it does not mean HB made a bad decision to come back to school all things considered. I hope he does not come back for a third and/or fourth year, because he is a good player.

From a basketball prespective, I think HB's biggest mistake was not choosing Duke over UNC. In my mind, HB would be a much better player at Duke than he has been thus far at Carolina. The system and the coaching at Duke would have been ideal for his game.

ChicagoHeel
12-06-2011, 01:00 PM
This ought to be popular here. I'm not sure Titus and I watched the same game.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/11350/the-tar-heels-have-no-interest-in-defense-and-other-observations-from-north-carolina-kentucky#more

Lid
12-06-2011, 01:09 PM
This ought to be popular here. I'm not sure Titus and I watched the same game.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/11350/the-tar-heels-have-no-interest-in-defense-and-other-observations-from-north-carolina-kentucky#more

I know this is not why you posted it, but now I'm convinced that Loose Butthole Monocles would be a great name for a cover band.

elvis14
12-06-2011, 02:15 PM
This ought to be popular here. I'm not sure Titus and I watched the same game.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/11350/the-tar-heels-have-no-interest-in-defense-and-other-observations-from-north-carolina-kentucky#more

I think it's crap and takes away from UK's offense. Like most teams UNC@CH has good and bad games on defense. If you watched the Duke-OSU game you'd think Koach hasn't practiced defense at all. Does UNC@CH play great defense, no. But they generally score enough points to make up for it. I hope it catches up with them (over and over) but they play defense and Henson's freakish limbs help to make up for some deficiencies.

9F

Gewebe14
12-06-2011, 02:33 PM
I think it's crap and takes away from UK's offense. Like most teams UNC@CH has good and bad games on defense. If you watched the Duke-OSU game you'd think Koach hasn't practiced defense at all. Does UNC@CH play great defense, no. But they generally score enough points to make up for it. I hope it catches up with them (over and over) but they play defense and Henson's freakish limbs help to make up for some deficiencies.

9F

I didnt catch this whole game, but I thought uncs D was ok, for them. Against UNLV it was another story.

elvis14
12-06-2011, 02:38 PM
I didnt catch this whole game, but I thought uncs D was ok, for them. Against UNLV it was another story.

I agree. Against UNLV their defense was wonderfully porous and they did a really poor job of guarding the 3pt line. Against UK the defense seemed OK but UK has some great athletes who made some plays.

OldSchool
12-06-2011, 02:47 PM
As far as the HB vs. Luol comparison goes, I'd take Luol without hesitation over Barnes. He was better offensively, defensively, and on the glass than Barnes at the same time in their careers.

I expect Luol and Barnes will be somewhat comparable NBA players, but I expect Barnes to generate more points per minute because he is a better jump shooter than Luol, especially from long range. Nevertheless, were I an NBA general manager I would take Luol as the total package over Barnes because I expect Luol to be better in rebounding, defensively and in providing leadership than Barnes.

oldnavy
12-07-2011, 06:52 AM
This ought to be popular here. I'm not sure Titus and I watched the same game.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/11350/the-tar-heels-have-no-interest-in-defense-and-other-observations-from-north-carolina-kentucky#more

I think UNC has played pretty good defense this year. It is not their strong suit. They seem to have a little trouble guarding the perimeter at times, but I do not think that they are a particularly bad defensive team.

NSDukeFan
12-07-2011, 08:49 AM
I think UNC has played pretty good defense this year. It is not their strong suit. They seem to have a little trouble guarding the perimeter at times, but I do not think that they are a particularly bad defensive team.

They are currently ranked 9th by KenPom in defensive efficiency, and those numbers should be starting to be more relevant now, though more so after the new year. I think UNC's struggles on defense have been greatly exaggerated. I believe they have been a pretty strong defensive team the past couple of years. Having Henson and Zeller inside to contest shots and grab rebounds certainly helps.

COYS
12-07-2011, 09:54 AM
They are currently ranked 9th by KenPom in defensive efficiency, and those numbers should be starting to be more relevant now, though more so after the new year. I think UNC's struggles on defense have been greatly exaggerated. I believe they have been a pretty strong defensive team the past couple of years. Having Henson and Zeller inside to contest shots and grab rebounds certainly helps.

+1 to this. UNC has been, to this point in the season, a significantly better defensive team than Duke. Duke has been a slightly better offensive team (and was quite a bit better before the OSU game). Despite the fact that the Felton and Lawson-led offenses at UNC were ruthlessly efficient while the defense lagged behind, UNC has been a better defensive team than an offensive team ever since Felton and company took their talents to the NBA. This is actually the first year since those guys left school that UNC's offense has been rated higher than their defense on KenPom. Henson is a remarkable defensive player because of his unique physique. His leaping ability and standing reach makeup for the weaknesses of UNC's perimeter defenders. Zeller's size is also an asset. UNC is better this year than last in large part because their offense is catching up to their defense. This is due to Henson improving on offense, but also because Bullock and Hairston have been able to hit outside shots. For all the talk UNC gets for its inside play, their best teams have always featured great outside shooting. Lawson and Ellington went on torrid streaks from three point range during the 2009 title run. Not only is the three point shot more valuable than a two pointer, it also opens up the floor. Consistent three point shooting from UNC will be essential to this year's Heel team keeping its offense at the level of its defense.

Ok, enough praise for UNC =).

oldnavy
12-07-2011, 02:08 PM
They are currently ranked 9th by KenPom in defensive efficiency, and those numbers should be starting to be more relevant now, though more so after the new year. I think UNC's struggles on defense have been greatly exaggerated. I believe they have been a pretty strong defensive team the past couple of years. Having Henson and Zeller inside to contest shots and grab rebounds certainly helps.

Good to know that my semi-casual observation is confirmed with data, thanks for providing...

CDu
12-07-2011, 02:30 PM
They are currently ranked 9th by KenPom in defensive efficiency, and those numbers should be starting to be more relevant now, though more so after the new year. I think UNC's struggles on defense have been greatly exaggerated. I believe they have been a pretty strong defensive team the past couple of years. Having Henson and Zeller inside to contest shots and grab rebounds certainly helps.

Yes, UNC has been very good defensively this year except for one game (UNLV). They were also a very good defensive team last year (6th in adjusted defensive efficiency). In 2010, they were mediocre defensively (#46) but worse offensively (#92). So far this year, UNC has actually been pretty efficient on both ends of the floor (top-10 in both categories, one of only four teams to have that claim at the moment). They just haven't been #1 in the nation, world-beater efficient.

dynastydefender
12-07-2011, 03:59 PM
I am flattered that UK versus UNC got this much banter from you all. Just "say thank you UK! You did something we won't be able to do this year." and be done with it.

CDu
12-07-2011, 04:14 PM
I am flattered that UK versus UNC got this much banter from you all. Just "say thank you UK! You did something we won't be able to do this year." and be done with it.

I think there's a very real chance we can beat UNC at home this year, too. Doesn't mean it will happen, of course. But don't think for a minute that you're the only team that can beat UNC.

Kedsy
12-07-2011, 04:18 PM
But don't think for a minute that you're the only team that can beat UNC.

Especially since UNLV did it a lot more convincingly than UK.

oldnavy
12-07-2011, 05:12 PM
Especially since UNLV did it a lot more convincingly than UK.

Ouch!, Good One!!

shoutingncu
12-07-2011, 07:00 PM
Especially since UNLV did it a lot more convincingly than UK.

And on a neutral court, too! ;)