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throatybeard
11-30-2011, 01:51 AM
You knew as soon as Coach K passed Dean Smith last Christmas with 880, they'd run their mouths two ways.

One flies in the face of the way everyone schedules. Their idea is that Duke schedules so many cupcakes OOC that his resume is "padded" compared to Dean's. (As if Dean's OOC schedule was the entire top 20 every year). That, of course, ignores another [supposedly nefarious] practice of Coach K, which is you schedule the best teams in the lesser conferences to strengthen your SOS, because you're an a-hole who games the system to strengthen your SOS. Oh, the treachery. So K can't possibly be legit because we play the best team in the Atlantic Sun or Horizon now and then. Horror. Whatever.

No one will ever make any hay with them on this, so screw it.

But the other is just straight numbers. I note that, at 7-1 this year, Coach K has 834 wins at Duke University. The Carolina meme now is "wins at one University," solely because it allows Dean (2 titles) to still excel both K (4 titles) and RMK (3 titles), since the latter two coached at more than one school. Boeheim was in the neighborhood with the one-school thing, but he's in a wee bit of trouble, if I've seen the news. No disrespect.

What this means is Mike Krzyzewski is just 46 wins shy of obliterating the one-school wins business. That's not long if he stays healthy. Bout a season and a half, two if things get sketchy by his standards. Won't happen this year, but probably sometime in the 2012-13 season, he'll probably pass Dean Smith for wins at a single school.

Now, all credit due to Dean, the ACC wins are still a little ways off, both with and without ACCT games. Refer to the original thread for that. We're still looking at Coach K's late 60s for that, and he has had significantly more games per season over his career on that metric, because Dean had 12/14/not many 16-game RSes and Coach K has had 14/16-game RSes. Again, I looked up the numbers in the original thread, but I'm too lazy to do so now. Maybe I'll cut-n-paste one day.

Anyway, I start this to make a seed-post about the last erasure of Dean's statistical top-doggery by Coach K. Petty, yes, I know. But it'll be pretty cool when he has more wins at Duke than Dean does at UNC, Boeheim at Syracuse, and anybody at anywhere, even without his 73 Army wins. Krzyzewski and Summitt. That's all.

OldPhiKap
11-30-2011, 06:17 AM
You knew as soon as Coach K passed Dean Smith last Christmas with 880, they'd run their mouths two ways.

One flies in the face of the way everyone schedules. Their idea is that Duke schedules so many cupcakes OOC that his resume is "padded" compared to Dean's. (As if Dean's OOC schedule was the entire top 20 every year). That, of course, ignores another [supposedly nefarious] practice of Coach K, which is you schedule the best teams in the lesser conferences to strengthen your SOS, because you're an a-hole who games the system to strengthen your SOS. Oh, the treachery. So K can't possibly be legit because we play the best team in the Atlantic Sun or Horizon now and then. Horror. Whatever.

No one will ever make any hay with them on this, so screw it.

But the other is just straight numbers. I note that, at 7-1 this year, Coach K has 834 wins at Duke University. The Carolina meme now is "wins at one University," solely because it allows Dean (2 titles) to still excel both K (4 titles) and RMK (3 titles), since the latter two coached at more than one school. Boeheim was in the neighborhood with the one-school thing, but he's in a wee bit of trouble, if I've seen the news. No disrespect.

What this means is Mike Krzyzewski is just 46 wins shy of obliterating the one-school wins business. That's not long if he stays healthy. Bout a season and a half, two if things get sketchy by his standards. Won't happen this year, but probably sometime in the 2012-13 season, he'll probably pass Dean Smith for wins at a single school.

Now, all credit due to Dean, the ACC wins are still a little ways off, both with and without ACCT games. Refer to the original thread for that. We're still looking at Coach K's late 60s for that, and he has had significantly more games per season over his career on that metric, because Dean had 12/14/not many 16-game RSes and Coach K has had 14/16-game RSes. Again, I looked up the numbers in the original thread, but I'm too lazy to do so now. Maybe I'll cut-n-paste one day.

Anyway, I start this to make a seed-post about the last erasure of Dean's statistical top-doggery by Coach K. Petty, yes, I know. But it'll be pretty cool when he has more wins at Duke than Dean does at UNC, Boeheim at Syracuse, and anybody at anywhere, even without his 73 Army wins. Krzyzewski and Summitt. That's all.

Dean who?

-jk
11-30-2011, 07:04 AM
I think I didn't get enough sleep. I opened this thread thinking, Wait!, K already has more technicals than Deano ever got...

-jk

JStuart
11-30-2011, 07:16 AM
When it seemed possible, before he retired from coaching, that he could reach Dean's milestone, he said, something to the effect of, well, if I get too close, Dean will come out of retirement to keep me from beating his record.
unc fans will manufacture something to 'prove' that Dean was best. Something to do with the Helms' bakery, perhaps?



No one will ever make any hay with them on this, so screw it.

OldPhiKap
11-30-2011, 08:40 AM
I think I didn't get enough sleep. I opened this thread thinking, Wait!, K already has more technicals than Deano ever got...

-jk

Although, to be fair, K never got thrown out of a final four game. So Deano wins that honor, 1-0.

CameronBlue
11-30-2011, 09:13 AM
RE: Winning at one school--so going 73 and 57 at a military academy is a bad thing? Winning at Army ain't easy and should be viewed as a pretty big deal. This "Dean is better thank K" argument is hardly worth mussing one's pants over. K's got him where it counts, in overall wins and NCs. Let the toolies stew in their own juices for the rest of eternity.

superdave
11-30-2011, 09:33 AM
Dean who?

Exactly. He only exceeds Coach K in the delusional imaginations of Unc fans. It's not even a conversation anymore.

MulletMan
11-30-2011, 09:47 AM
The hilarity of y'all talking about delusional UNC fans is that here at work a UNC fan just told me that Dean was classier than K because Dean never swore.

:confused:

OldPhiKap
11-30-2011, 10:24 AM
The hilarity of y'all talking about delusional UNC fans is that here at work a UNC fan just told me that Dean was classier than K because Dean never swore.

:confused:

He must love Roy.

cspan37421
11-30-2011, 10:33 AM
Am I the only one who originally misread the title as "... pursuit of Dean Smith [on technicals] Vigil" ? :D

Indoor66
11-30-2011, 12:54 PM
The hilarity of y'all talking about delusional UNC fans is that here at work a UNC fan just told me that Dean was classier than K because Dean never swore.

:confused:

Obviously they didn't know Dean! I did and Dean used to swear like a Marine.

OldPhiKap
11-30-2011, 12:59 PM
Obviously they didn't know Dean! I did and Dean used to swear like a Marine.

Between cigarettes?

Indoor66
11-30-2011, 01:05 PM
Between cigarettes?

With cigarettes dangling.

gus
11-30-2011, 01:19 PM
Throaty, are you adding in the wins attributed to Coach Gaudet?

That's the logic, right -- the whole season belongs to Coach K?

devildeac
11-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Obviously they didn't know Dean! I did and Dean used to swear like a Marine.

At least he didn't cuss like a sailor (jk, Bob).

snowdenscold
11-30-2011, 02:31 PM
Am I the only one who originally misread the title as "... pursuit of Dean Smith [on technicals] Vigil" ? :D

No, I saw the same thing.

WiJoe
11-30-2011, 03:19 PM
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em!

2157

CameronBlue
11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
Obviously they didn't know Dean! I did and Dean used to swear like a Marine.

This is true. I used to help engineer/phone screen Dean's call in show and Dean wasn't afraid to let an s-bomb or two fly. John "The Whole Package" Kilgo hosted (so called because he was constantly adjusting himself). Dean was also a little on the paranoid side (perhaps owing to K's famous "double standard" comment?) and claimed that K and Jimmy V were conspiring with Fred Barakat to influence ACC officiating, a sentiment shared by others in the UNC administration which was exposed when John Clougherty was appointed to lead ACC officials. He was cautious around strangers, understandably, and we exchanged few words during the 20-30 shows I covered for Village Broadcasting. His energy, no doubt, was reserved for other venues.

Indoor66
11-30-2011, 03:46 PM
At least he didn't cuss like a sailor (jk, Bob).

I carefully selected my military branch reference to the one in which I was a member so as not to insult the others. :cool:

superdave
11-30-2011, 03:48 PM
The hilarity of y'all talking about delusional UNC fans is that here at work a UNC fan just told me that Dean was classier than K because Dean never swore.

:confused:

I always drop the nuke on Carolina fans and bring up how Dean was almost fired because of his messy affair that led to the messy end of his first marriage. If you want to argue cursing, let's argue something more important! The most common reaction is "That is something I did not know until now. Huh."

devildeac
11-30-2011, 03:50 PM
I carefully selected my military branch reference to the one in which I was a member so as not to insult the others. :cool:

Jarhead will be pleased.;)

Carry on, sir.

Duvall
11-30-2011, 03:52 PM
I always drop the nuke on Carolina fans and bring up how Dean was almost fired because of his messy affair that led to the messy end of his first marriage. If you want to argue cursing, let's argue something more important! The most common reaction is "That is something I did not know until now. Huh."

Nah. Any Carolina fan that doesn't respond to the simple logic of 4 > 2 isn't worth talking to.

throatybeard
11-30-2011, 06:05 PM
Throaty, are you adding in the wins attributed to Coach Gaudet?

That's the logic, right -- the whole season belongs to Coach K?

I did not include the four Gaudet wins. I took the official total, which I think is 907, and subtracted 73. At least I think that's what I did.

Someone brought up the point that the "at one school" business is silly, and I agree. Indeed, as legendary coaches move "up" if they have two or three jobs during their career, isn't it more impressive that they ran up a total while having to start over at a second school? Coach K could have bopped around in the Patriot league for another few decades, but instead took on a reclamation project. Brill always said Vince Taylor was Foster's last blue-chip recruit. Which means 1982 and 1983 were going to be hard no matter how you sliced it. Those could have been his sixth and seventh seasons at Army, seasons in which you really get rolling if you're doing a great job. Instead he took a huge risk in moving to a conference with a combination of good/great coaches--Smith, Driesell, Holland, Tacy, and two crackerjack contemporaries, Valvano and Cremins. And at a little private school, not the school whose name is the same as the name of the state, as Dave Odom would say. As impressive at Dean's career total is, I think it's more impressive that K has passed it when he "started over" at a second school, and that his main inheritance was a single year of Banks/Dennard and two of Vince Taylor. No disrespect meant to the other guys on those teams.

devildeac
11-30-2011, 08:10 PM
I did not include the four Gaudet wins. I took the official total, which I think is 907, and subtracted 73. At least I think that's what I did.

Someone brought up the point that the "at one school" business is silly, and I agree. Indeed, as legendary coaches move "up" if they have two or three jobs during their career, isn't it more impressive that they ran up a total while having to start over at a second school? Coach K could have bopped around in the Patriot league for another few decades, but instead took on a reclamation project. Brill always said Vince Taylor was Foster's last blue-chip recruit. Which means 1982 and 1983 were going to be hard no matter how you sliced it. Those could have been his sixth and seventh seasons at Army, seasons in which you really get rolling if you're doing a great job. Instead he took a huge risk in moving to a conference with a combination of good/great coaches--Smith, Driesell, Holland, Tacy, and two crackerjack contemporaries, Valvano and Cremins. And at a little private school, not the school whose name is the same as the name of the state, as Dave Odom would say. As impressive at Dean's career total is, I think it's more impressive that K has passed it when he "started over" at a second school, and that his main inheritance was a single year of Banks/Dennard and two of Vince Taylor. No disrespect meant to the other guys on those teams.

Unfortunately, this is logical and reasonable, not what you want when arguing with fans of the lighter blue persuasion. I think this is what you really wanted:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26754-Arguing-with-David-or-The-Duke-Argument

Son of Jarhead
11-30-2011, 08:44 PM
Jarhead will be pleased.;)

Carry on, sir.

Growing up, I only heard Jarhead curse at Jesse Helms & the occasional drunk unc fan at Wallace Wade, though I would imagine he cursed at my older brothers, I know I sure did. ;)

OldPhiKap
11-30-2011, 09:41 PM
Growing up, I only heard Jarhead curse at Jesse Helms & the occasional drunk unc fan at Wallace Wade

Jarhead is now my new bestest friend. Double word score there.

airowe
12-01-2011, 12:00 AM
Next argument will be win percentage.

throatybeard
12-01-2011, 12:50 AM
Next argument will be win percentage.

I bet you're right. No, I'm sure you're right. Good call.

Dean Smith .776
Krzyzewski at Duke .787
Krzyewski overall .761

Well now, any sane person would concede that this is all basically with the margin of error, concede that 1962-1980 and 1998-present are different eras, and would proceed to chill out. But almost none of theirs are sane and I'm not real optimistic about ours, frankly.

So Dean is +.015 overall but -.011 when both guys were at ACC schools. Also, this is the finally the spot where the Carolina fans would benefit from sticking him with Gaudet's losses. Interestingly, with the Ohio State woodsheding the other night, Coach is at 285 losses, so those phantom Gaudet losses his fake spine is supposedly responsible for in Carolinanschauung--those would put him at exactly 300. Four more wins gives you 911-300, so that takes his overall win-% all the whopping way down to .759. That amazes me. Allow them their Gaudet lust and it knocks him down a whopping .002. I wouldn't believe that if I hadn't actually hit the buttons on the calculator. For the group, there's some defense. Next time some antagonistic UNC instigator brings Gaudet up, shove that up their...rhetorical opening. .002.

Mind you, K's 73-47 at Army ain't bad at all, .608. I'm not going to sit down and figure out what it would take over this season (thru age 65) and, say, seven more (2019, or thru his age 72 season) to "make up" the .015 to atone for his "lesser" three-fifths winning percentage at Army. But it wouldn't hurt to average .800, I guess. Win four out of every five. Since we had our last "lousy" season (2007, 22-11, or, wait for it, two-thirds), excluding this year so far, he went 125-23 (.844). And it doesn't hurt that the ACC seems to be getting suckier.

At this point, it's instructive to pause. The one allegedly "lousy" season since the mid-90s health issues (including 1996 in that) still saw the team win .667 and go .500 in the league. That's the "bad" season. That's sick! In the last four seasons, we won a title that shut everyone pro- and contra Duke up for a hot minute, but there was a ludicrous amount of grave-dancing/rending of royal blue garments in the other three seasons, which included two ACC titles but ended in the S16 twice and the 2R once. In 2007-08 thru 2010-11, the team is 102 games over .500. Or, .845. 108 games over .500 if you include this year so far. In those four complete seasons Duke is averaging over 25 games/year above .500. What? Yeah.

So, who knows, but a few more 30-win seasons may put the win-percentage argument out to pasture as well.

I think it would be funny if he petitioned the NCAA to give him the 4-15 and then still smoked Dean with like a .795 career win percentage or something.

We're so spoiled that not only do we not know how spoiled we are, you're surprised when you go in with a non-spoiled attitude and find out we're even more spoiled than you thought past that. Or something.

msdukie
12-01-2011, 12:51 AM
Next argument will be win percentage.

Well, K has a much better win percentage AT DUKE than Dean, but I know they will try to have it both ways.

I always felt that K getting to 880 at Duke was the most important number (at least to me, more than 903), but then I was a senior when Dean got 879....

airowe
12-01-2011, 11:50 AM
I calculated it the other day and as long as Duke keeps at about the rate they've been winning lately, it will take about 7 years for K to improve his win percentage to even with Dean. I have a feeling that benchmark will be gone soon to so the goalposts will need to be moved once more.

WiJoe
12-01-2011, 03:33 PM
i always drop the nuke on carolina fans and bring up how dean was almost fired because of his messy affair that led to the messy end of his first marriage. if you want to argue cursing, let's argue something more important! The most common reaction is "that is something i did not know until now. Huh."

more info, please !!!!

throatybeard
01-28-2012, 01:49 PM
While watching the game, I began to wonder if it's possible Mike Krzyzewski will have half of Duke's all-time wins when he retires.

I think we're at 917 career wins, but you have to subtract the Army wins, so that knocks it down to 843. I added up the total of all the other guys as listed in the Wiki article and got 1115, which sounds about right, because McGeachy's team won #1000 in 1974, and Foster won 113. Further, you have to include Gaudet's four wins. So that's 1119 non-Krzyzewski wins.

So 274 wins or thereabouts. Even at the recent pace, which can't necessarily be assumed, you're looking at nine or ten seasons. He turns 65 next month. You'd be looking at his age-74 or age-75 season, and a career total close to 1200.

Doesn't seem too likely. Then again, I didn't really think human civilization would last this long. 2012. We're already living in the future.

dukelilsis
01-28-2012, 02:42 PM
devildeac, thank you! I don't know how I missed that video in the past but it is a pretty accurate reflection of the conversations I have endured since I was a child. Again, thank you! I haven't laughed that hard in a really long time!

As for the Coach K vs. Dean debate, you can't reason with those who are too ignorant to participate in the debate. No contest, Coach K is superior and they will never accept it.

Duvall
01-28-2012, 02:45 PM
But the other is just straight numbers. I note that, at 7-1 this year, Coach K has 834 wins at Duke University. The Carolina meme now is "wins at one University," solely because it allows Dean (2 titles) to still excel both K (4 titles) and RMK (3 titles), since the latter two coached at more than one school. Boeheim was in the neighborhood with the one-school thing, but he's in a wee bit of trouble, if I've seen the news. No disrespect.

Funny to see this come back now that Boeheim is two wins away from catching Dean for most wins at one school. Could be one back in another twenty minutes.

Duvall
01-28-2012, 03:09 PM
Funny to see this come back now that Boeheim is two wins away from catching Dean for most wins at one school. Could be one back in another twenty minutes.

DUKE REFS steal a win for Syracuse against West Virginia, Boeheim now needs one win to catch Dean Smith with 879 wins at one school.

Olympic Fan
01-28-2012, 05:44 PM
I think we're at 917 career wins, but you have to subtract the Army wins, so that knocks it down to 843. I added up the total of all the other guys as listed in the Wiki article and got 1115, which sounds about right, because McGeachy's team won #1000 in 1974, and Foster won 113.

Just a small corection. The victory over St. John's was 918.

Easy to remember, K started the year at 900. After Saturday';s win, Duke is 18-3.

BTW ... next time any Carolina fan gives you grief about Dean's winning percentage, ask him (or her) what Adolph Rupp's career winning percentage was. [Hint: it's .822 .. significantly better than El-Deano; and Rupp also won four titles ... like K, twice as many as Dean].

MartyClark
01-28-2012, 05:59 PM
Just a small corection. The victory over St. John's was 918.

Easy to remember, K started the year at 900. After Saturday';s win, Duke is 18-3.

BTW ... next time any Carolina fan gives you grief about Dean's winning percentage, ask him (or her) what Adolph Rupp's career winning percentage was. [Hint: it's .822 .. significantly better than El-Deano; and Rupp also won four titles ... like K, twice as many as Dean].

I find the whole idea of arguing with a Carolina fan amusing. They, at least the ones on IC, are completely crazy. It's like the old saying, "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty and the pig will enjoy it" (or something like that)

devildeac
01-28-2012, 06:24 PM
I find the whole idea of arguing with a Carolina fan amusing. They, at least the ones on IC, are completely crazy. It's like the old saying, "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty and the pig will enjoy it" (or something like that)
This is another expression I like:

“Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.”

Cameron
01-28-2012, 07:26 PM
On a hilarious note, I was just perusing the Carolina boards and, based on Wes Miller's recent five-game winning streak at UNC-Greensboro, they are calculating the odds of Wes overtaking K as the all-time wins leader after Wes takes over for Roy and averages 30 wins per year for 50 years. It seems that they've already got it figured out. I say that Dean's fall from the record books coupled with Roy's vanishing act in Tallahassee has really *&$#%! with them. And it's pretty fantastic.

Along this same line of thinking, I would contend that there is also a very probable chance that Mike Krzyzewski's successor is Marylin Manson.

throatybeard
01-28-2012, 09:22 PM
Just a small corection. The victory over St. John's was 918.

I was writing during the game and didn't want to jinx 918. Which ended up being a lot closer than expected.

OrangeDevil
01-29-2012, 12:47 PM
I have several friends who are UNC alums who become visibly angered to the point of apoplexy whenever the comparison of K and Dean comes up. Initially I was taken aback by the vehement force of their hatred for Coach K because otherwise they are typically articulate and reasonable people. As I questioned and listened to them explain their contempt for K it became quite clear as to the source of their anger: in their own minds they know that apart from other comparative issues that divides Duke-UNC basketball, K has already established himself as the greatest coach in ACC history; in doing he has eclipsed and supplanted the "saint" who the Tarheels believed would stand forever as the symbol and standard of coaching greatness in the ACC.

When I pointed out this reality along with the not so subtle aside, "hey, second place is not so bad," you wouldn't believe (or perhaps you would) the anger, curses, and a slammed door that followed. One of them now greets me with an icy stare whenever K's name is mentioned. Seems the Heels are pretty thin-skinned whenever it is said that El Deano is numero dos.

moonpie23
01-29-2012, 12:56 PM
"eff you dean" was the blasphemy that started the absolute "hatred". duke beating UNC was the blowtorch. now, k has left dean in the rearview and they see his legacy slipping further behind. no one would like that. we won't like it if a UNC coach does that to K

throatybeard
02-07-2013, 11:12 PM
I didn't want to start a new thread.

With the win tonight, Krzyzewski is just 20 ACC wins shy (excluding ACCT, I think) of El Deano. At the latest rate, that's less than two full seasons. We could be looking at 2015.

In Dean's defense, they played fewer league games when there were seven, eight, nine teams in the league.

In K's defense, there might be more parity now. Might, I'm not sure I want to stand by that statement.

Anyway, the last of Dean's landmarks, other than supposedly inventing pointing at people for assists, is in trouble.

davekay1971
02-07-2013, 11:33 PM
I didn't want to start a new thread.

With the win tonight, Krzyzewski is just 20 ACC wins shy (excluding ACCT, I think) of El Deano. At the latest rate, that's less than two full seasons. We could be looking at 2015.

In Dean's defense, they played fewer league games when there were seven, eight, nine teams in the league.

In K's defense, there might be more parity now. Might, I'm not sure I want to stand by that statement.

Anyway, the last of Dean's landmarks, other than supposedly inventing pointing at people for assists, is in trouble.

Dean still leads K 1-0 in "Being Hung in Effigy By Your Own Student Fan Base". Maybe the Duke kids should do it twice just to irritate the Tarheels.

hurleyfor3
02-07-2013, 11:38 PM
Anyway, the last of Dean's landmarks, other than supposedly inventing pointing at people for assists, is in trouble.

Although I'm not sure what K's plan is to wrestle the "most wins at one school" record from Boeheim.

throatybeard
02-07-2013, 11:45 PM
Although I'm not sure what K's plan is to wrestle the "most wins at one school" record from Boeheim.

Coach till 75 and hope Boeheim quits at 70. I reckon.

vick
02-08-2013, 12:08 AM
Dean still leads K 1-0 in "Being Hung in Effigy By Your Own Student Fan Base". Maybe the Duke kids should do it twice just to irritate the Tarheels.

Perhaps K should get himself ejected in the last minute of a national championship game? :D

gep
02-08-2013, 10:58 PM
Perhaps K should get himself ejected in the last minute of a national championship game? :D

Only if Duke is up 20+ at that point... :cool: Make a statement (although I don't really know what, except against the NCAA, refs, or something else)

I remember a football game back in the 80's, I think... the team had lost to their bitter rivals in something like forever. So when they were up 30+ points late in the 4th quarter... the wide receiver who caught a TD pass turned to the crowd and punted the ball into the stands. Great stuff...

Olympic Fan
03-04-2013, 06:29 PM
It kind of got overlooked in the euphoria of Ryan's return (at least I didn't see it posted anywhere or on TV or on the news), but the Miami win was Coach K's 879th victory at Duke -- which ties Dean Smith for the second-most wins at one school (they both trail Boeheim). With a victory over VPI Tuesday, K passes Dean on that list too.

I did see it noted that it was K's 400th ACC win ... and, of course, it was his 952nd win overall -- over 40 more than second-place Jim Boeheim.

For Duke, Miami was victory No. 1,996 ... closing on becoming the fourth NCAA school to reach 2,000 wins.

slower
03-04-2013, 06:37 PM
My Tarheel friends on Facebook, faced with my pointing out that K has passed Dean in almost every stat, point out that Dean won their head-to-head matchups 24-14. That will be ALL they have left to cling to when all is said and done - but cling to it they shall.

davekay1971
03-04-2013, 06:55 PM
My Tarheel friends on Facebook, faced with my pointing out that K has passed Dean in almost every stat, point out that Dean won their head-to-head matchups 24-14. That will be ALL they have left to cling to when all is said and done - but cling to it they shall.

Yes they shall. Especially since it's the one thing where Dean leads that can't be changed. Of course, you could try reminding them that Dean built a significant lead in K's early years before he got his program really up and going. But that would be clouding their passion with facts, and we can't have that. Dean was 8-1 against K in their first 9 meetings. After that he was 16-13.

The only other achievable measure in which K can surpass Dean, after he takes the lead in most victories at one school, is most ACC wins, where he still trails Dean. Tried to google Dean's total, and I think it's 422, but I couldn't find it and now my 5 month old is fussing!

slower
03-04-2013, 07:03 PM
and now my 5 month old is fussing!

Which is essentially the same thing as debating Tarheel fans

hurleyfor3
03-04-2013, 07:09 PM
The only other achievable measure in which K can surpass Dean, after he takes the lead in most victories at one school, is most ACC wins, where he still trails Dean. Tried to google Dean's total, and I think it's 422, but I couldn't find it and now my 5 month old is fussing!

All that stuff's in the ACC media guide.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/acc/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2012-13/misc_non_event/13accmbbguide.pdf

Dean is indeed at 422.

Dean still leads K in ACC Tournament wins, 58 versus 53, and I think Dean has 14 ACC Championships to K's 13.

Dean and K are still tied at 11 Final Fours.

davekay1971
03-04-2013, 07:22 PM
All that stuff's in the ACC media guide.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/acc/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2012-13/misc_non_event/13accmbbguide.pdf

Dean is indeed at 422.

Dean still leads K in ACC Tournament wins, 58 versus 53, and I think Dean has 14 ACC Championships to K's 13.

Dean and K are still tied at 11 Final Fours.

Thanks! So, by the end of this post season, K will be 2 ACC tournament wins behind Deam, tied in ACC championships, ahead in Final Fours, and up 5-2 in NCs?

brevity
03-04-2013, 07:25 PM
Have Carolina fans realized that Dean Smith isn't even their winningest basketball coach anymore?

hurleyfor3
03-04-2013, 07:28 PM
Thanks! So, by the end of this post season, K will be 2 ACC tournament wins behind Dean, tied in ACC championships, ahead in Final Fours, and up 5-2 in NCs?

Just wait till what we do next year!

Unfortunately, Dean's record for fewest points in a half (zero) will likely pass unbroken for yet another year.

buddy
03-04-2013, 07:29 PM
It kind of got overlooked in the euphoria of Ryan's return (at least I didn't see it posted anywhere or on TV or on the news), but the Miami win was Coach K's 879th victory at Duke -- which ties Dean Smith for the second-most wins at one school (they both trail Boeheim). With a victory over VPI Tuesday, K passes Dean on that list too.

I did see it noted that it was K's 400th ACC win ... and, of course, it was his 952nd win overall -- over 40 more than second-place Jim Boeheim.

For Duke, Miami was victory No. 1,996 ... closing on becoming the fourth NCAA school to reach 2,000 wins.

Since UNC counts their two victories over Duke in 1995 as K's losses, doesn't this mean he gets the three victories under Gaudet, and therefore is already past Dean? Or is that too logical for a Carolina grad?

moonpie23
03-04-2013, 09:01 PM
there are a lot of unc bandwagoneers that think dean won in 57.....

Olympic Fan
03-05-2013, 02:26 AM
All that stuff's in the ACC media guide.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/acc/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2012-13/misc_non_event/13accmbbguide.pdf

Dean is indeed at 422.

Dean still leads K in ACC Tournament wins, 58 versus 53, and I think Dean has 14 ACC Championships to K's 13.

Dean and K are still tied at 11 Final Fours.

Nope .. K and Dean both have 13 ACC championships ... Dean got his in 36 seasons ... K in 32 seasons (this is his 33rd).

They are tied in Final Fours with 11 each -- again Dean got his in four extra seasons.

Dean does lead in ACC wins (that's overall -- regular season and tournament) 422 to 400 ... K should win 2-3-5 more this season, leaving him somewhat less than 20 ACC wins behind Dean. He could catch him next season, but more likely will blow past Dean early in the 2014-15 regular season in this category.

Dean does have an edge in ACC Tournament wins 58-53 ... but again, that's the four extra seasons -- K actually has a better winning percentage in the tournament (74.6 vs. 71.6).

And I think now that they are tied at wins at one school, it's worth noting that Dean's record at UNC was 879-254 -- 77.6 percent ... K's record at Duke is 879-236 -- 78.8 percent.

Obviously, K leads in overall wins (952 TO 879) ... in national titles (4-2) and in Olympic titles (2-1). Dean does have an NIT championship that K can't match, unless you want to counter that with K's World Championship that Dean can't match.

It won't be long before the only thing they have to cling to is that head-to-head record ... of course, if a UNC fan ever brings that up, remind them that Vic Bubas was 12-8 head-to-head againt Dean Smith, so if head-to-head is the determining factor, they have to concede that Bubas was better than Smith.

Henderson
03-05-2013, 04:36 AM
there are a lot of unc bandwagoneers that think dean won in 57.....

1957... What a quaint time. The NCAAT lasted from March 11 to March 23. Two wins and you went to the Final Four. Four wins and you were national champs. West Regional was in Corvallis, Oregon, in a facility that could seat 9600 fans. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 30 per game during the season, but Kansas lost in 3 OT in the championship game, with neither team scoring 60. Coach K was 10 years old, and Deano was coaching the US Air Force golf team.

OldPhiKap
03-05-2013, 07:26 AM
Dean was a great coach.

Mike IS a great coach.


Verb tense makes all the difference.

Olympic Fan
03-05-2013, 01:03 PM
1957... What a quaint time. The NCAAT lasted from March 11 to March 23. Two wins and you went to the Final Four. Four wins and you were national champs. West Regional was in Corvallis, Oregon, in a facility that could seat 9600 fans. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 30 per game during the season, but Kansas lost in 3 OT in the championship game, with neither team scoring 60. Coach K was 10 years old, and Deano was coaching the US Air Force golf team.

Actually, UNC had to win 5 games to win the 1957 national title.

The NCAA field fluctuated in the '50s and '60s, but was usually around 24 teams. The top conferences, based on NCAA performance, got first-round byes into the Sweet 16.

The ACC didn't earn a bye until 1963. Give Wake Forest credit -- by beating UCLA in the 1962 Final Four consolation game, that put the ACC into the top group. Duke was able to take advantage of the bye in 1963, 1964 and 1966.

And you are right that Dean was coaching golf at Air Force. His main job there was assistant basketball coach to Bob Spears. Spears was a buddy of Frank McGuire. Talk about quaint -- Spears and Smith stayed in Frank McGuire's hotel room in Kansas City during the '57 Final Four. After UNC won, Dean made all the arrangements for a celebration bnquet.

It was that contact that led McGuire to hire Smith as an assistant at UNC the next year.

gocanes0506
03-05-2013, 09:23 PM
K +1 on Dean for wins at a single school

dukelifer
03-05-2013, 09:44 PM
K +1 on Dean for wins at a single school

800th win at Cameron for the Duke Program- undefeated season - K gets the Record for ACC wins with on team and Sr night where all the seniors play well in a win. Not a bad night.

hurleyfor3
03-05-2013, 09:58 PM
Do we lock this now? What's the next thing, 1000 wins? Should we rename it to that? This is rather uncharted territory.

pfrduke
03-05-2013, 10:07 PM
Do we lock this now? What's the next thing, 1000 wins? Should we rename it to that? This is rather uncharted territory.

Well, conference wins is next, although that's a season or so away (down 21 right now).

Olympic Fan
03-06-2013, 12:12 AM
Keep it going ... K needs 21 ACC wins (regular season and tournament) to catch Dean on that one (422 total ACC wons ... K has 401)

Also, he needs five ACC Tournament wins to catch Dean on that one (58 .. K has 53)

K needs one more ACC title to break the tie with Dean (13 each)

K needs one more Final Four to break the tie with Dean (11) and to toe Wooden (12) for the NCAA record

K needs one more NCAA title to break the tie with Rupp in second place (4 each, trailing Wooden's 10)

throatybeard
03-06-2013, 01:42 AM
Good, work, people. We just need to keep the counts current.

As I said earlier, there will come a day when I'm explaining to my son (2009-) that Dean Smith used to be relevant. It's soon.

throatybeard
03-06-2013, 01:45 AM
Keep it going ... K needs 21 ACC wins (regular season and tournament) to catch Dean on that one (422 total ACC wons ... K has 401)

I really don't mean to disrespect Dean Smith. This is utter insanity right here. Keep in mind, Dean was working 12/14 game ACC seasons with a few 16-game ones at the end; Krzyzewski has worked 12/14/16 and now 18 game seasons. I've long thought Dean's real legacy wasn't pointing, or chicken keepaway, or his NCAA total, but his ACC wins total. OK, maybe I do mean to disrespect him when talking about the four corners.

Indoor66
03-06-2013, 07:39 AM
Good, work, people. We just need to keep the counts current.

As I said earlier, there will come a day when I'm explaining to my son (2009-) that Dean Smith used to be relevant. It's soon.

Gee, Throaty, you're son is REALLY old. :cool:

nocilla
03-06-2013, 11:41 AM
My Tarheel friends on Facebook, faced with my pointing out that K has passed Dean in almost every stat, point out that Dean won their head-to-head matchups 24-14. That will be ALL they have left to cling to when all is said and done - but cling to it they shall.

I get one more stat from UNC fans, the career winning percentage. I can argue that K has a better winning percentage at Duke than Dean had at UNC but of course it is irrational to them to leave out the Army years. However, based on my limited math skills, Coach K can catch Dean at that if he continues to coach at a high level for another 7 years. It is hard to forecast that far out given the unknowns, but based on how Coach K looks now it certainly seems possible that he continues to coach for another 7-10 years and do it at a high level. Obvioulsy a couple outstanding years would reduce the timeframe as would a couple bad years extend it. And obviously Coach K retiring in the next 7 years is possible. Dean finished his career at .7758 while Coach K is currently at .7636. (for those curious, Coach K's win % at Duke is .7885.)

This is how Coach K's career win % has progressed over the last 15 years;
'98 = .7043 (505 wins and 212 losses)
'99 = .7169
'00 = .7228
'01 = .7310
'02 = .7372
'03 = .7391
'04 = .7430
'05 = .7456
'06 = .7507
'07 = .7481 (the 22-11 season, :()
'08 = .7505
'09 = .7525
'10 = .7554
'11 = .7601
'12 = .7611 (927 wins and 291 losses)

Coach K has averaged 30.27 wins and 5.53 loses per year for the last 15, a win % of .8454. We are currently at 26-4 this season. If we give them 4 more wins and 2 loses we would end at 30-6. Obviously I hope we finish better than that, but it is also possible that we finish worse so 4-2 seems to be a fair forecast.

'13 = .7632 (Assuming a 4-2 finish, 957 wins and 297 losses)
'14 = .7654 (Using the average of 30 wins and 5.5 losses from here on out)
'15 = .7675
'16 = .7696
'17 = .7715
'18 = .7733
'19 = .7751
'20 = .7767

Henderson
03-06-2013, 11:59 AM
I decline to get into a debate about Dean vs. K anymore. It's over. Way over. On this issue, Carolina fans are like yappy lap dogs with delusional senses of self. You don't indulge such creatures; you just kick 'em in the teeth and make 'em shut up while you go about your business.

Olympic Fan
03-06-2013, 12:12 PM
I really don't mean to disrespect Dean Smith. This is utter insanity right here. Keep in mind, Dean was working 12/14 game ACC seasons with a few 16-game ones at the end; Krzyzewski has worked 12/14/16 and now 18 game seasons. I've long thought Dean's real legacy wasn't pointing, or chicken keepaway, or his NCAA total, but his ACC wins total. OK, maybe I do mean to disrespect him when talking about the four corners.

There is some truth to that, but not a lot.

Dean's record in ACC games was 422-159 ... K's is currently 401-158. When he passes Dean for ACC win total, he's going to have a slightly poorer winning percentage. He hasn't played THAT many more ACC games. Yes, K has had more games per season, but Dean has had three extra seasons (plus what renmains of this one).


And you could argue that the difference in winning percentage was the 1960s, when Dean coached in a league where half the programs didn't invest money or interest. Virginia, for instance, didn't win an ACC Tournament game in the entire decade ... and mostly didn't care. How many easy wins did Dean pick up from Virginia, South Carolina (before Frank's arrival), Clemson and Maryland (before Lefty's arrival ... plus the Wake program collapsed in the late '60s, early '70s. You think there are bad teams in the ACC today ... believe me, Dean fattened his record on some ACC patsies.

throatybeard
03-06-2013, 02:23 PM
Gee, Throaty, you're son is REALLY old. :cool:

I often think about his age relative to other things, for example:

Me:Henry Aaron::my son:Tom Glavine

(Braves HOFer who retired the year you were born. Well, Glavine will be soon.)

Dev11
03-06-2013, 02:30 PM
Somewhat on topic, I carelessly wandered over to IC and read a thread about whether or not they should hold the Helms title on the same pedestal as their five NCAA championships. One of the main points that was brought up (and I must say, the lack of grammar makes that board immensely hard to read) was that the Helms title irritates Duke and State fans. I found that interesting.

Also, apparently on IC, if you voice a dissenting opinion, rather than being flamed to death as on DBR, you are openly accused of being a Duke spy or something to that effect. Learn something new every day, I suppose.

Atldukie79
03-06-2013, 02:59 PM
Forgive me if this was addressed and I missed it, but the 4 NC schools used to play a 2 game mini tournament in the fall called the Big Four...
I would guess this went on for 10 years (or less?) in the 1970's.

Would these games be included in Dean's total?

BD80
03-06-2013, 03:08 PM
1957... What a quaint time. The NCAAT lasted from March 11 to March 23. Two wins and you went to the Final Four. Four wins and you were national champs. West Regional was in Corvallis, Oregon, in a facility that could seat 9600 fans. Wilt Chamberlain averaged 30 per game during the season, but Kansas lost in 3 OT in the championship game, with neither team scoring 60. Coach K was 10 years old, and Deano was coaching the US Air Force golf team.

What a travesty. Deano tried installing the "four fairways." He didn't win much, and matches took days.

Deano was able to smoke while coaching on the course, and it did instill in him a fashion sense he would never lose.

Olympic Fan
03-06-2013, 06:52 PM
Annoyed by UNC's bogus Helms championship?

Well, get ready to be more annoyed -- the newcomers are bringing six Helms Foundation titles with them.

Syracuse won it in 1918 an 1926 ... Notre Dame in 1927 and 1936 ... Pitt in 1928 and 1930.

It's really a shame about 1929, because otherwise the ACC could claim a straight run from 1926 to 1930 ... but it was broken in 1929 by that superpower Montana State.

Just to clarify -- ALL of these campionships were awarded retroactively in the 1940s by the business manager of the of the Helms Bread Company. He claimed to have consulted experts to help with the pick, but he never named any of the experts and when his papers were examined after his death, here was no evidence that he had contacted anyone.

PS While the three ACC newcomers all celebrate their Helms awards, none of of them equate them to a real national championship as UNC does.

OldPhiKap
03-06-2013, 07:18 PM
Annoyed by UNC's bogus Helms championship?

Well, get ready to be more annoyed -- the newcomers are bringing six Helms Foundation titles with them.

Syracuse won it in 1918 an 1926 ... Notre Dame in 1927 and 1936 ... Pitt in 1928 and 1930.

It's really a shame about 1929, because otherwise the ACC could claim a straight run from 1926 to 1930 ... but it was broken in 1929 by that superpower Montana State.

Just to clarify -- ALL of these campionships were awarded retroactively in the 1940s by the business manager of the of the Helms Bread Company. He claimed to have consulted experts to help with the pick, but he never named any of the experts and when his papers were examined after his death, here was no evidence that he had contacted anyone.

PS While the three ACC newcomers all celebrate their Helms awards, none of of them equate them to a real national championship as UNC does.

If Jefferson Pilot or Dinah Shore had named the champs, I would give it some credence. But Helms Bread < Continental Baking/Wonder Bread by a mile. I mean, Helms Bread made people rethink the whole "greatest thing since sliced bread" thing. Set pre-processed baked starches back a decade or more.

Reilly
03-06-2013, 08:23 PM
If Jefferson Pilot or Dinah Shore had named the champs, I would give it some credence. ...

... or Entenmann's. I would believe anything that the makers of this have to say:

http://www.entenmanns.com/op-prod.cfm/prodId/7203000271/catId/4

OldPhiKap
03-06-2013, 09:01 PM
... or Entenmann's. I would believe anything that the makers of this have to say:

http://www.entenmanns.com/op-prod.cfm/prodId/7203000271/catId/4

Peak Freans are a VERY serious cookie.

Newton_14
03-06-2013, 09:55 PM
Forgive me if this was addressed and I missed it, but the 4 NC schools used to play a 2 game mini tournament in the fall called the Big Four...
I would guess this went on for 10 years (or less?) in the 1970's.

Would these games be included in Dean's total?

Good point. Have not looked it up yet, but I imagine those games are counted in Dean's numbers. The tourney started out as the Dixie Classic and then became the Big Four. Much to the surprise of some people, the last Big Four Tournament was 1981 I believe. It was either 80 or 81, but going on memory only, I feel certain it was 81.

Oly Fan or Mr Sumner can provide more details and enlighten us if those games are counted in Dean's and K's numbers.


Edit: Per Wiki:
These four universities are also known in the state as the "Big Four" and competed in the Dixie Classic (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/wiki/Dixie_Classic_(basketball_tournament)) tournament from 1949 to 1961 and the Big Four Tournament in Greensboro, North Carolina (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/wiki/Greensboro,_North_Carolina), from 1971 to 1981

throatybeard
09-19-2013, 04:54 AM
Coach K currently has 884 wins at Duke, so he's past Dean Smith on the "at one school" thing.

Unfortunately, so is Jim Bo-heem, as Jim Rome would say. Go Kriz-uh-woo-ski.

moonpie23
09-19-2013, 10:48 AM
so, what, besides "head to head" is left for K over the nose?

JasonEvans
09-19-2013, 11:20 AM
so, what, besides "head to head" is left for K over the nose?

K and Dean each have 11 Final Fours. Wooden holds the record with 12. That's one I'd love to see K tie and then break in the next 19 months ;)

Dean's teams were ACC tourney champions 13 times. Same with K.

One place where Dean holds a big advantage is on ACC regular season championships (does such a thing really even exist, especially now with the imbalanced schedule??). Dean has 17 of them and K ONLY has 12.

Perhaps most absurdly, Dean was ACC Coach of the Year 8 times. K has only been Coach of the Year 5 times, most recently in 2000. Yes, you read that right. K did not win ACC COY in 1998, when the team went 15-1 in the conference. He did not win it in 2006 when they were 14-2. He didn't win it in 1992 when they were also 14-2. I could go on and on... just plain silly.

-Jason "you asked..." Evans

Dev11
09-19-2013, 11:32 AM
K and Dean each have 11 Final Fours. Wooden holds the record with 12. That's one I'd love to see K tie and then break in the next 19 months ;)

Dean's teams were ACC tourney champions 13 times. Same with K.

One place where Dean holds a big advantage is on ACC regular season championships (does such a thing really even exist, especially now with the imbalanced schedule??). Dean has 17 of them and K ONLY has 12.

Perhaps most absurdly, Dean was ACC Coach of the Year 8 times. K has only been Coach of the Year 5 times, most recently in 2000. Yes, you read that right. K did not win ACC COY in 1998, when the team went 15-1 in the conference. He did not win it in 2006 when they were 14-2. He didn't win it in 1992 when they were also 14-2. I could go on and on... just plain silly.

-Jason "you asked..." Evans

ACC Coach of the Year is awarded to the coach that most over-performs the media's vague perceptions of how good his team was going to be at the beginning of the year. At this point, it's irrelevant to any discussion of who the best coach is. Seth Greenberg was never the best coach in the ACC.

-bdbd
09-19-2013, 11:44 AM
I get one more stat from UNC fans, the career winning percentage. I can argue that K has a better winning percentage at Duke than Dean had at UNC but of course it is irrational to them to leave out the Army years. However, based on my limited math skills, Coach K can catch Dean at that if he continues to coach at a high level for another 7 years. It is hard to forecast that far out given the unknowns, but based on how Coach K looks now it certainly seems possible that he continues to coach for another 7-10 years and do it at a high level. Obvioulsy a couple outstanding years would reduce the timeframe as would a couple bad years extend it. And obviously Coach K retiring in the next 7 years is possible. Dean finished his career at .7758 while Coach K is currently at .7636. (for those curious, Coach K's win % at Duke is .7885.)

This is how Coach K's career win % has progressed over the last 15 years;
'98 = .7043 (505 wins and 212 losses)
'99 = .7169
'00 = .7228
'01 = .7310
'02 = .7372
'03 = .7391
'04 = .7430
'05 = .7456
'06 = .7507
'07 = .7481 (the 22-11 season, :()
'08 = .7505
'09 = .7525
'10 = .7554
'11 = .7601
'12 = .7611 (927 wins and 291 losses)
.....

Would this be the SAME fans who have argued so vociferously over the last several years that it was critically important that Dean had more career wins AT ONE SCHOOL than did K???

:confused:

Edouble
09-19-2013, 11:46 AM
K and Dean each have 11 Final Fours. Wooden holds the record with 12. That's one I'd love to see K tie and then break in the next 19 months ;)

Dean's teams were ACC tourney champions 13 times. Same with K.

One place where Dean holds a big advantage is on ACC regular season championships (does such a thing really even exist, especially now with the imbalanced schedule??). Dean has 17 of them and K ONLY has 12.

Perhaps most absurdly, Dean was ACC Coach of the Year 8 times. K has only been Coach of the Year 5 times, most recently in 2000. Yes, you read that right. K did not win ACC COY in 1998, when the team went 15-1 in the conference. He did not win it in 2006 when they were 14-2. He didn't win it in 1992 when they were also 14-2. I could go on and on... just plain silly.

-Jason "you asked..." Evans

I agree that I would love to see Coach K grab the Final Four and ACC Championships records.

The ACC COY record really won't matter, as when all is said and done, Coach K will be remembered as the best ever in the ACC and one of the top 2 or 3 of all time.

sagegrouse
09-19-2013, 11:55 AM
I expect that observers and commentators without ties to ACC schools will be content to say, "Dean and K are far and away the best coaches in ACC history," without feeling it necessary to rank the two. While there is overlap, Dean began coaching in the ACC 19 years before K, which was a different era. After all, Dean was hanged in effigy in Chapel Hill while K was still in high school.

Sagegrouse

Duvall
09-19-2013, 11:59 AM
I expect that observers and commentators without ties to ACC schools will be content to say, "Dean and K are far and away the best coaches in ACC history," without feeling it necessary to rank the two. While there is overlap, Dean began coaching in the ACC 19 years before K, which was a different era. After all, Dean was hanged in effigy in Chapel Hill while K was still in high school.

Sagegrouse

I expect that observers and commentators without ties to ACC schools will be surprised that there's even a comparison between Krzyzewski and Smith, and will be more likely to compare Wooden and Krzyzewski for best of all-time.

Matches
09-19-2013, 12:01 PM
ACC Coach of the Year is awarded to the coach that most over-performs the media's vague perceptions of how good his team was going to be at the beginning of the year. At this point, it's irrelevant to any discussion of who the best coach is. Seth Greenberg was never the best coach in the ACC.

Hilarious that since the last time K won it, winners have included:

Paul Hewitt (in 2001 - IIRC Matt Doherty was NCOY that year)
Herb Sendek
Dave Leitao
Seth Greenberg - twice.

Those would be Exhibits A-E as to why the award is meaningless.

sagegrouse
09-19-2013, 12:14 PM
I expect that observers and commentators without ties to ACC schools will be surprised that there's even a comparison between Krzyzewski and Smith, and will be more likely to compare Wooden and Krzyzewski for best of all-time.

I agree. K has never been hung in effigy by irate students.

Sage

wilko
09-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Those would be Exhibits A-E as to why the award is meaningless.

Functionally its become the "Over-achiever" award in Coaching.
No one wants to honor consistency, and actually doing what you are supposed to do...
Its no longer trendy and there is no "Story". Writers gotta write..

Indoor66
09-19-2013, 12:33 PM
I expect that observers and commentators without ties to ACC schools will be content to say, "Dean and K are far and away the best coaches in ACC history," without feeling it necessary to rank the two. While there is overlap, Dean began coaching in the ACC 19 years before K, which was a different era. After all, Dean was hanged in effigy in Chapel Hill while K was still in high school.

Sagegrouse

Isn't Effigy a little west of Bynum?

devildeac
09-19-2013, 01:01 PM
Isn't Effigy a little west of Bynum?

This is the best I could do:

http://www.us-parks.com/effigy-mounds-national-monument/lodging.html

Looks like it's a short drive northeast of Cedar Rapids.

dukeofcalabash
09-19-2013, 01:07 PM
I have no problem with anyone who swears, uses foul language, or limits his vocabulary to those 4 letter words to describe everything in life UNLESS it's in the presence of a lady! I do have my limits! :cool:

throatybeard
09-19-2013, 01:10 PM
I have no problem with anyone who swears, uses foul language, or limits his vocabulary to those 4 letter words to describe everything in life UNLESS it's in the presence of a lady! I do have my limits! :cool:

My wife, who turns 38 today, is rather foul-mouthed. I love it!

construe
09-19-2013, 02:07 PM
My wife, who turns 38 today, is rather foul-mouthed. I love it!

Is she named Flo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KJJ_OSW0Oo)? ;)

nocilla
09-19-2013, 02:34 PM
Would this be the SAME fans who have argued so vociferously over the last several years that it was critically important that Dean had more career wins AT ONE SCHOOL than did K???

:confused:

Probably, but if asked I'm sure they won't know what I am talking about.

On a side note, I am disappointed to see my forecast of a 4-2 finish to the season held true. I was hoping for better obviously.

Matches
09-19-2013, 03:32 PM
Functionally its become the "Over-achiever" award in Coaching.
No one wants to honor consistency, and actually doing what you are supposed to do...
Its no longer trendy and there is no "Story". Writers gotta write..

Sure, and keep in mind the people who decided what a team was "supposed" to do are the same people who later give the award for over-achieving. Were Greenberg's VT teams legitimately over-achieving, or were they simply being overlooked by the media in preseason?

Evaluating how a coach performed in a particular season is problematic to begin with, especially in college bball where the coach is the one responsible for recruiting the players - but it becomes even moreso when we're measuring how "well-coached" a team is against an arbitrary and possibly misinformed preseason expectation.

matt1
09-19-2013, 03:43 PM
I expect that observers and commentators without ties to ACC schools will be surprised that there's even a comparison between Krzyzewski and Smith, and will be more likely to compare Wooden and Krzyzewski for best of all-time.

The K-Wooden comparison is not really a fair comparison, as Wooden only had to deal with 8 teams in his NCAA Tournament. That is part of the reason he won so many titles.

sagegrouse
09-19-2013, 07:48 PM
The K-Wooden comparison is not really a fair comparison, as Wooden only had to deal with 8 teams in his NCAA Tournament. That is part of the reason he won so many titles.

Uhhhh..... Not true. Not even close. In the 1960s there were 22 teams in the NCAAs. As a result, there were six first-round games. Duke played in one in 1960 at MSG, beating Princeton 84-60.

I believe the number 22 continued through at least UCLA's first two titles. And after that, even though the number may have increased, UCLA entered the tournament at the regionals. And BTW, so did Duke in 1963, 1964, and 1966 -- two wins and then the Final Four.

Wooden's last title was in 1975, when the field had expanded to 32, and more than one rep was allowed per conference.

Sagegrouse

Edouble
09-19-2013, 09:32 PM
Hilarious that since the last time K won it, winners have included:

Paul Hewitt (in 2001 - IIRC Matt Doherty was NCOY that year)
Herb Sendek
Dave Leitao
Seth Greenberg - twice.

Those would be Exhibits A-E as to why the award is meaningless.


Isn't Effigy a little west of Bynum?

You are both confused, Bynum was on Hewitt's '04 team.

throatybeard
09-19-2013, 11:38 PM
I am too lazy to re-do all the research, but on the old software sometime before 2007, James Armstrong put a massive smackdown on the meme that says Wooden never had to beat anyone good in the West Regional. Sam Gilbert? Ok. But UCLA did have to beat some decent teams out west.

matt1
09-19-2013, 11:39 PM
Uhhhh..... Not true. Not even close. In the 1960s there were 22 teams in the NCAAs. As a result, there were six first-round games. Duke played in one in 1960 at MSG, beating Princeton 84-60.

I believe the number 22 continued through at least UCLA's first two titles. And after that, even though the number may have increased, UCLA entered the tournament at the regionals. And BTW, so did Duke in 1963, 1964, and 1966 -- two wins and then the Final Four.

Wooden's last title was in 1975, when the field had expanded to 32, and more than one rep was allowed per conference.

Sagegrouse

OK, maybe I was off on my numbers, but my point still stands that Wooden had a much smaller field to compete against than Krzyzewski does today. Also, the game was completely different.

sagegrouse
09-20-2013, 12:13 AM
OK, maybe I was off on my numbers, but my point still stands that Wooden had a much smaller field to compete against than Krzyzewski does today. Also, the game was completely different.

The real difference IMHO (where the H is silent) is that in 1964 there were about 30 teams with top-notch basketball programs, who took winning basketball championships really seriously. Today there are probably 150 - based on the money and the increasing breadth of athletic programs.

The 1964 list would include the Big Four in the ACC and no one else. Kentucky and Miss State in the SEC. A bunch of Big Ten teams. No one in the SWC. Eastern teams like St. Bonaventure's, St. Joe's, Villanova, St. John's. Some teams in the Missouri Valley Conf like Bradley, Wichita State..... UCLA and Oregon State on the West Coast. The old Big Eight had Kansas and some others.

Sagegrouse

Ichabod Drain
09-20-2013, 10:42 AM
OK, maybe I was off on my numbers, but my point still stands that Wooden had a much smaller field to compete against than Krzyzewski does today. Also, the game was completely different.

Even with a smaller field no one today is going to win eight straight and 10 in 12 years. The game is always changing though. Do we want people 40 years from now dismissing coach K's wins because the game was "different"?

Olympic Fan
09-20-2013, 03:55 PM
Even with a smaller field no one today is going to win eight straight and 10 in 12 years. The game is always changing though. Do we want people 40 years from now dismissing coach K's wins because the game was "different"?

Good post ... look at it a different way -- Wooden won 32 straight Final Four games. Now you can argue about the strength and the balance of the field over the years, but it's hard to argue that winning IN the Final Four was easier in his era. 32 straight Final Four games between a loss to Wake Forest in the 1962 consolation game and a loss to NC State in the 1974 semifinals -- nobody has come close to that.

The one black mark in my eyes on Wooden is the Sam Gilbert connection ....

On the other hand, when you start comparing championships -- Wooden has 10 NCAA titles ... K has just four. But K also has a World Championship and two Olympic Gold medals as head coach ... to me that's seven major titles to Wooden's 10 ... add another world title in 2014 and a third Olympic gold in 2016 and maybe one more NCAA title and we can start making a convincing case vs. Wooden in the GOAT debate.

PS For the record, Wooden never coached inte5rnational basketball ... not only that, he encouraged his best players to pass up international ball. None of his biggest stars -- Alcindor, Walton, Wilkes, Bibby, Wicks, etc., ever represented the United States. I sometimes wonder how the 1972 Munich fiasco would have worked out if Walton hadn't refused to play.

sagegrouse
09-20-2013, 04:03 PM
Good post ... look at it a different way -- Wooden won 32 straight Final Four games. Now you can argue about the strength and the balance of the field over the years, but it's hard to argue that winning IN the Final Four was easier in his era. 32 straight Final Four games between a loss to Wake Forest in the 1962 consolation game and a loss to NC State in the 1974 semifinals -- nobody has come close to that.

.

You'll have to help me with the math. UCLA won FFs in 1964 and 1965 and then six straight years from 1967 through 1973, before losing in the semis to NC State in 1974. That's eight Final Fours at two wins apiece, which is 16, not 32.

sage

Olympic Fan
09-20-2013, 04:47 PM
You'll have to help me with the math. UCLA won FFs in 1964 and 1965 and then six straight years from 1967 through 1973, before losing in the semis to NC State in 1974. That's eight Final Fours at two wins apiece, which is 16, not 32.

sage

you are right ... I had a brain fart. But I contend that it doesn't change my point. 16 is still amazing ... I believe that the next longest FF winning streak is 5 games (Cincinnati 61-62-63) and Duke (91,-92, 94).

Dev11
09-20-2013, 04:58 PM
Good post ... look at it a different way -- Wooden won 32 straight Final Four games. Now you can argue about the strength and the balance of the field over the years, but it's hard to argue that winning IN the Final Four was easier in his era. 32 straight Final Four games between a loss to Wake Forest in the 1962 consolation game and a loss to NC State in the 1974 semifinals -- nobody has come close to that.

The one black mark in my eyes on Wooden is the Sam Gilbert connection ....

On the other hand, when you start comparing championships -- Wooden has 10 NCAA titles ... K has just four. But K also has a World Championship and two Olympic Gold medals as head coach ... to me that's seven major titles to Wooden's 10 ... add another world title in 2014 and a third Olympic gold in 2016 and maybe one more NCAA title and we can start making a convincing case vs. Wooden in the GOAT debate.

PS For the record, Wooden never coached inte5rnational basketball ... not only that, he encouraged his best players to pass up international ball. None of his biggest stars -- Alcindor, Walton, Wilkes, Bibby, Wicks, etc., ever represented the United States. I sometimes wonder how the 1972 Munich fiasco would have worked out if Walton hadn't refused to play.

I don't think Olympic or World titles are anything like college championships, and if we're talking about those, then we've gotten away from 'best college coach' and we're now talking about 'best basketball coach,' so we'd have to start debating Phil and Red, since they both had a good number of championships to their names.

I think international championships are great, but being the US coach with NBA players puts you at a pretty distinct advantage. The discrepancy between the talent and depth of the US squad versus any other country's squad is going to be larger than the discrepancy of the best team in college basketball versus the field. K's international titles are awesome, but they just were not as difficult as his college titles, recognizing that the teams get put together over only about a month's work, and its the offseason for the pros, and all that.

I, too, think that there is an argument that K is the best basketball coach ever. It's just not an argument I would root in number of championships won. I think its more about winning in more diverse eras, playing styles, and levels of competition.

moonpie23
09-22-2013, 09:40 AM
now they have a thread : How many of K's wins were Out of Conference True Away Games


the most telling response: "not nearly as many as dean's i'll bet"



they are scratching, clawing, and biting to hang onto ANY tiny shred of deano not being in K's rearview.....

superdave
09-22-2013, 08:43 PM
In the immortal words of Krzyzewski himself "if I ever start to act like Dean Smith, get a gun and shoot me."



now they have a thread : How many of K's wins were Out of Conference True Away Games


the most telling response: "not nearly as many as dean's i'll bet"



they are scratching, clawing, and biting to hang onto ANY tiny shred of deano not being in K's rearview.....

Tom B.
09-23-2013, 01:40 PM
Paul Hewitt (in 2001 - IIRC Matt Doherty was NCOY that year)



Yep, Doherty was the AP National Coach of the Year for the 2000-01 season. That was also the year that National Player of the Year Shane Battier had to share the ACC Player of the Year award with Joseph Forte.

UNC was ranked as high as #2 in the country as late as mid-February of that season, before memorably imploding over the last few weeks, in which they lost to an awful Clemson team on the road, got spanked at home by Duke (the game after Carlos Boozer broke his foot, a.k.a. the "It's Over" game, a.k.a. the "cheetah highlight" game -- see this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ82CmxFLaE) at 0:50), got crushed by Duke in the ACC Tournament final, and bowed out to Penn State in the NCAA Second Round.

If you're having a bad day, go to the ACC Vault (http://vault.theacc.com/) and watch Duke's beatdown of Carolina in the ACC Tournament final. If you don't have time to watch the whole thing, just watch the last 10 minutes of the first half. Good times.

throatybeard
09-23-2013, 02:03 PM
...in which they lost to an awful Clemson team on the road...

What a crazy day that was. I had a bunch of people over to my house to watch Duke versus Saint John's. Most stayed to watch Carolina get beat, but we switched to the Daytona 500 to catch the last few laps...just in time to see Dale Earnhardt crash into the wall and die.

Tom B.
09-23-2013, 02:21 PM
What a crazy day that was. I had a bunch of people over to my house to watch Duke versus Saint John's. Most stayed to watch Carolina get beat, but we switched to the Daytona 500 to catch the last few laps...just in time to see Dale Earnhardt crash into the wall and die.



Good memory. For some reason, I thought Carolina's loss at Clemson was the game immediately before their home loss to Duke on the schedule, but I looked it up and it was actually two weeks earlier, on February 18, 2001 (also the same day on which, as you pointed out, Duke beat St. John's and Dale Earnhardt died). In between Carolina's road loss to Clemson and their home loss to Duke, they had a home win against Florida State, a 20-point road loss to Virginia (which was actually decent that year -- it was the one UVa team that Pete Gillen got to the NCAA Tournament), and a home win against N.C. State.

Olympic Fan
09-23-2013, 02:49 PM
UNC was ranked as high as #2 in the country as late as mid-February of that season, before memorably imploding over the last few weeks, in which they lost to an awful Clemson team on the road, got spanked at home by Duke (the game after Carlos Boozer broke his foot, a.k.a. the "It's Over" game, a.k.a. the "cheetah highlight" game -- see this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ82CmxFLaE) at 0:50), got crushed by Duke in the ACC Tournament final, and bowed out to Penn State in the NCAA Second Round.


Actually, UNC was No. 1 for consecutive weeks -- Feb. 5 and Feb. 12. On Feb. 10, UNC beat No. 13 Maryland to go 22-2. UNC was No. 1 in the Feb. 12 poll. But they didn't play again that week until Sunday, Feb. 18 at Clemson, where they fell to a team that would finish 2-14 in the ACC. The next week, UNC dropped to No. 2 in the Feb. 19 poll. After a midweek home win over FSU, they played at Virginia the next Sunday and lost to the Cavs, ranked No. 9 in the county. UNC dropped to No. 4 in the next poll. The Heels posted another midweek win over unranked N.C. State, but lost their next Sunday game -- at home to No. 2 Duke -- the post Boozer game.

Oddly, Duke dropped to No. 3 in the Mar. 5 poll (due to the midweek Maryland loss) and UNC dropped two more spots to No. 6.

In the ACC Tournament, UNC beat Clemson and Georgia Tech to reach the finals ... on Sunday again. And naturally Duke killed them.

In the NCAA Tournament, UNC opened with a Friday win over Princeton, but -- you guessed it -- on Sunday they lost to Penn State.

That's just so amazing ... after going 22-2, then play nine games -- five on Sunday and four on other days of the week ... UNC loses all five Sunday games and wins all four games on the other days of the week.

Giving Doherty the AP national coach of the year award was a joke since UNC began its collapse in mid-February (besides, he inherited four starters off a Final Four team). At least the ACC voters showed a little more sense, giving their COY Award to Paul Hewitt, for taking a 13-17 (5-11) Georgia Tech team and bringing it home 17-13 (8-8).

Of course, I think that was K's greatest coaching job -- for winning the national title after Boozer's injury -- but his success came too late for the COY voters.

How the ACC has changed -- the final AP poll included five of the nine ACC teams -- No. 1 Duke, No. 6 UNC, No. 11 Maryland, No. 16 Virginia and No. 23 Wake Forest.

Edouble
09-24-2013, 01:44 AM
Good memory. For some reason, I thought Carolina's loss at Clemson was the game immediately before their home loss to Duke on the schedule, but I looked it up and it was actually two weeks earlier, on February 18, 2001 (also the same day on which, as you pointed out, Duke beat St. John's and Dale Earnhardt died). In between Carolina's road loss to Clemson and their home loss to Duke, they had a home win against Florida State, a 20-point road loss to Virginia (which was actually decent that year -- it was the one UVa team that Pete Gillen got to the NCAA Tournament), and a home win against N.C. State.

We lost at UVA too, that year. I recall Brendan Haywood saying in the papers (why he was quoted on a Duke-UVA game, I have no idea) that he knew how tough UVA was at home and that he had told a friend that Duke would lose at UHall. I thought it was hilarious that Haywood and UNC ended up losing there too!

That UVA team were paper tigers though. They couldn't win against a decent opponent on the road.

pfrduke
09-24-2013, 08:43 AM
That UVA team were paper tigers though. They couldn't win against a decent opponent on the road.

So, like every other UVA team, except they won some games at home.

Tom B.
09-24-2013, 02:15 PM
We lost at UVA too, that year. I recall Brendan Haywood saying in the papers (why he was quoted on a Duke-UVA game, I have no idea) that he knew how tough UVA was at home and that he had told a friend that Duke would lose at UHall. I thought it was hilarious that Haywood and UNC ended up losing there too!

That UVA team were paper tigers though. They couldn't win against a decent opponent on the road.




Our loss at UVa that year was the game that broke our streak of 24 straight road wins in the ACC. As far as I know, that's still the record for consecutive road wins in the conference. It's pretty mind-boggling when you think about it -- that's three full seasons without a road loss in a brutal conference.

The difference between that UVa team at home and on the road was striking. We'd beaten them by 42 (!) in Cameron earlier in the season, 103-61. They ended up losing to Gonzaga in the first round of the NCAA Tournament, in a 5/12 upset.

throatybeard
01-20-2015, 09:13 AM
It has come to my attention that, if ESPN knows whereof they speak, the Pittsburgh game was Krzyzewski's 420th ACC win, when the ACCT is taken into account, leaving him just two shy of Señor Light Bluenose's total of 422.

I don't remember the details of the Big Four tournament or the non-conference Duke-Georgia Tech game in 1994-95, and right now, I don't particularly care. This means Coach K needs just three ACC wins to make his erstwhile Research Trinagle-based colleague even less relevant in the record books than he is today.

As many have noted, the schedule is a gauntlet of strychnine-laced porcupine corpses poised to hit us in the face. Blessed are the schedule makers, for they were apparently high, because they have us playing Notre Dame twice in ten days, and I've got a very very very bad feeling about the road game at TJ University. The remaining RS schedule, per DBR:

@ St. John's Red Storm Sunday, January 25 2015 1:00 PM EST
@ Notre Dame Fighting Irish Wednesday, January 28 2015 7:30 PM EST
@ Virginia Cavaliers Saturday, January 31 2015 12:00 PM EST
Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets Wednesday, February 04 2015 7:00 PM EST
Notre Dame Fighting Irish Saturday, February 07 2015 1:00 PM EST
@ Florida State Seminoles Monday, February 09 2015 7:00 PM EST
@ Syracuse Orange Saturday, February 14 2015 6:00 PM EST
North Carolina Tar Heels Wednesday, February 18 2015 9:00 PM EST
Clemson Tigers Saturday, February 21 2015 4:00 PM EST
@ Virginia Tech Hokies Wednesday, February 25 2015 9:00 PM EST
Syracuse Orange Saturday, February 28 2015 12:00 PM EST
Wake Forest Demon Deacons Wednesday, March 04 2015 8:00 PM EST
@ North Carolina Tar Heels Saturday, March 07 2015 12:00 PM EST

I think somebody established that there's no way the second game against the school that makes up fake classes starts at noon. Anyway, I'm not quite sure who the hell is in this conference this month, but I'm pretty sure SJU isn't. This means the earliest Coach K could wipe out 422 is at home against Georgia Tech. (I'm pleased with myself for forecasting that event about five years ago as sometime in the 2015 spring semester).* But if you gave me a split at Syracuse and at Our Lady of Northern Indiana, I'd take it laughing and running and drooling like that wolf who chases Red Riding Hood in the WWII-era WB cartoons. That would set us up for #423 potentially coming in the rematch with our Papist friends on 7 February, at home.

Looking at this schedule makes my head hurt.


* - if any of our readers were athletes at UNC-Chapel Hill, please let me explain this technical jargon. A "semester" is a measure of time into which most academic calendars in North America are divided. They usually elapse over a period of about four months, during which students have to go to class a lot and do some stuff the instructor tells them to do.

ksimp112
01-20-2015, 12:23 PM
Just curious, but I was wondering if someone could post how many ACC wins Coach K now has after last night's victory over Pitt? With him approaching the 1K milestone, I know the next milestone is becoming the all-time ACC career wins leader.

I knew that he was behind Dean Smith, but I actually wasn't sure how far behind he was starting ACC play this season. I knew he would pass Smith sometime this season, but wasn't sure when.

Thanks,

throatybeard
01-20-2015, 12:25 PM
422-420. See:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26742-The-official-Krzyzewski-pursuit-of-Dean-Smith-on-technicalities-Vigil&p=771695#post771695

Olympic Fan
01-20-2015, 01:17 PM
422-420. See:

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26742-The-official-Krzyzewski-pursuit-of-Dean-Smith-on-technicalities-Vigil&p=771695#post771695

Jody McCreary of the AP reported that Monday night's win was K's 420th ACC win ... he was incorrect. It was No. 421 according to the ACC.

I refer you to Monday's ACC release -- check page 6:

http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2014-15_m-baskbl_release.pdf

K ties Dean with his next ACC win.

And just to clarify -- the totals include only ACC Regular Season and Tournament . It does not include postseason games (Duke-Maryland in the 2001 Final Four or UNC over Duke in the 1971 NIT semifinals). It doesn't include regular season meetings against ACC schools that weren't conference games (Duke over Georgia Tech in the December 1994 Rainbow Classic; all of Dean's Big Four Tournament wins).

mattman91
01-20-2015, 01:22 PM
Jody McCreary of the AP reported that Monday night's win was K's 420th ACC win ... he was incorrect. It was No. 421 according to the ACC.

I refer you to Monday's ACC release -- check page 6:

http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2014-15_m-baskbl_release.pdf

K ties Dean with his next ACC win.

And just to clarify -- the totals include only ACC Regular Season and Tournament . It does not include postseason games (Duke-Maryland in the 2001 Final Four or UNC over Duke in the 1971 NIT semifinals). It doesn't include regular season meetings against ACC schools that weren't conference games (Duke over Georgia Tech in the December 1994 Rainbow Classic; all of Dean's Big Four Tournament wins).

Haha! :cool:

I wonder if he will make it to 500? He would probably need to coach another 6-7 years.

mgtr
01-20-2015, 01:30 PM
It has come to my attention that, if ESPN knows whereof they speak, the Pittsburgh game was Krzyzewski's 420th ACC win, when the ACCT is taken into account, leaving him just two shy of Señor Light Bluenose's total of 422.

I don't remember the details of the Big Four tournament or the non-conference Duke-Georgia Tech game in 1994-95, and right now, I don't particularly care. This means Coach K needs just three ACC wins to make his erstwhile Research Trinagle-based colleague even less relevant in the record books than he is today.

As many have noted, the schedule is a gauntlet of strychnine-laced porcupine corpses poised to hit us in the face. Blessed are the schedule makers, for they were apparently high, because they have us playing Notre Dame twice in ten days, and I've got a very very very bad feeling about the road game at TJ University.

TJ University = ??? Maybe The Jesuit University? I dunno. Maybe The Johnnies University?

-jk
01-20-2015, 01:39 PM
Thos. Jeff's, I believe.

-jk

devildeac
01-20-2015, 01:51 PM
Jody McCreary of the AP reported that Monday night's win was K's 420th ACC win ... he was incorrect. It was No. 421 according to the ACC.

I refer you to Monday's ACC release -- check page 6:

http://raycomsports.com/sports_labs_docs/m-baskbl/2014-15_m-baskbl_release.pdf

K ties Dean with his next ACC win.

And just to clarify -- the totals include only ACC Regular Season and Tournament . It does not include postseason games (Duke-Maryland in the 2001 Final Four or UNC over Duke in the 1971 NIT semifinals). It doesn't include regular season meetings against ACC schools that weren't conference games (Duke over Georgia Tech in the December 1994 Rainbow Classic; all of Dean's Big Four Tournament wins).

Wait! Does this total include/exclude the 3 (4 if you count ND:rolleyes:) games K did/n't win during this season (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/schedule.php?season=1994-95) when he did/n't coach and did/n't have his back injury/exhaustion? The c*rolina math/upper level course/grading system/athletic/academic scandal/method of reasoning/rationalization has me soooooo confused:rolleyes:;).

Olympic Fan
01-20-2015, 02:12 PM
Checked the totals with the ACC office and they checked with Duke -- it is definitely 421 at the moment.

Going into the season, K was 362-149 in the ACC regular season wins and 55-20 in ACC Tournament play -- 417 wins

Dean was 364-136 in regular season and 58-23 in the tournament -- 422 wins.

K is now 366-151 in regular season play.

It didn't get mentioned, but when K won at Wake Forest on Jan. 7, K broke Dean's record of regular season wins. Still got the ACC Tournament win record to go -- he can tie Dean's record there with a good run in Greensboro this March (technically he could beat it by winning the tournament from the 5th seed or below).

Again, just to confirm, the record only includes regular season and ACC Tournament wins -- victories over ACC schools outside ACC play don't count. And, no, the three Pete Gaudet ACC wins in 1994 that UNC fans keep wanting to give K don't count either. Although why they would want him to surpass Dean in these categories I don't understand.

devildeac
01-20-2015, 02:32 PM
Checked the totals with the ACC office and they checked with Duke -- it is definitely 421 at the moment.

Going into the season, K was 362-149 in the ACC regular season wins and 55-20 in ACC Tournament play -- 417 wins

Dean was 364-136 in regular season and 58-23 in the tournament -- 422 wins.

K is now 366-151 in regular season play.

It didn't get mentioned, but when K won at Wake Forest on Jan. 7, K broke Dean's record of regular season wins. Still got the ACC Tournament win record to go -- he can tie Dean's record there with a good run in Greensboro this March (technically he could beat it by winning the tournament from the 5th seed or below).

Again, just to confirm, the record only includes regular season and ACC Tournament wins -- victories over ACC schools outside ACC play don't count. And, no, the three Pete Gaudet ACC wins in 1994 that UNC fans keep wanting to give K don't count either. Although why they would want him to surpass Dean in these categories I don't understand.

You don't understand c*rolina logic/reasoning? How long have you lived here/been a Duke fan?:rolleyes:;)

I think the only reason they might have is that it makes K's winning %age even lower/less than Smith's.

luvdahops
01-20-2015, 03:02 PM
I think somebody established that there's no way the second game against the school that makes up fake classes starts at noon. Anyway, I'm not quite sure who the hell is in this conference this month, but I'm pretty sure SJU isn't. This means the earliest Coach K could wipe out 422 is at home against Georgia Tech. (I'm pleased with myself for forecasting that event about five years ago as sometime in the 2015 spring semester).* But if you gave me a split at Syracuse and at Our Lady of Northern Indiana, I'd take it laughing and running and drooling like that wolf who chases Red Riding Hood in the WWII-era WB cartoons. That would set us up for #423 potentially coming in the rematch with our Papist friends on 7 February, at home.
.

That wolf is off the charts hilarious ("Uh, what was that gal's name again?....). They sure don't make cartoons like that anymore.

Olympic Fan
01-20-2015, 03:07 PM
Can we merge this thread with the other one on the front page?

And make it clear that ESPN does NOT know whereof they speak (although in this case, they are quoting the AP, which was wrong). The Pitt win was K's 421st ACC win, not 420.

mgtr
01-20-2015, 04:03 PM
Thos. Jeff's, I believe.

-jk

OK, but I thought the common reference was "Mr. Jefferson's University," not TJ University.

DukieInKansas
01-20-2015, 04:22 PM
It has come to my attention that, if ESPN knows whereof they speak, the Pittsburgh game was Krzyzewski's 420th ACC win, when the ACCT is taken into account, leaving him just two shy of Señor Light Bluenose's total of 422.

I don't remember the details of the Big Four tournament or the non-conference Duke-Georgia Tech game in 1994-95, and right now, I don't particularly care. This means Coach K needs just three ACC wins to make his erstwhile Research Trinagle-based colleague even less relevant in the record books than he is today.

As many have noted, the schedule is a gauntlet of strychnine-laced porcupine corpses poised to hit us in the face. Blessed are the schedule makers, for they were apparently high, because they have us playing Notre Dame twice in ten days, and I've got a very very very bad feeling about the road game at TJ University.
<snip>



TJ University = ??? Maybe The Jesuit University? I dunno. Maybe The Johnnies University?


Thos. Jeff's, I believe.

-jk

I was going with Touchdown Jesus University. Inquiring minds want to know.

BigWayne
01-20-2015, 06:14 PM
I was going with Touchdown Jesus University. Inquiring minds want to know.

That was my guess also.

royalblue
01-21-2015, 07:13 PM
Could we use this list to make a shirt of accomplishments of both coaches.
You have done a great job with the greatest coach but give Dean his due as a coach in the ACC.

Dean most first half games with no points
Dean most final four ejections
Dean most times changing the score himself
Terry Holland named his dog Dean cause it whined all the time
Dean even built loyalty from the opponent as those teams helped out at the end for both of his questionable titles see Fred Brown and Chris Webber
I'm sure the great minds of this board will have many more wonderful items to add to this list but i will add one last note below.

Dean at the top of his coaching acumen got to see K
Go to 7 of 9 FF and play in 4 of 5 championship games.
That had to be a bitter time for Dean as he may
have expected a finger point from K for the motivation to accomplish what he did as a coach.
Ill give Dean credit it's taken years for some to realize he was # 2 but I've thought of Dean as #2 for as long as I can remember.

Im4howdy
01-21-2015, 07:58 PM
I have always kept a clipping, quoting Dean as saying (late 80's?) "We have found that there are no bigger Carolina fans than the ones we meet at our visits to the prisons." so...

Dean had the most support in the convict population (which is too ironic really)

Duvall
01-21-2015, 08:04 PM
Dean had the most support in the convict population (which is too ironic really)

Why?

jv001
01-21-2015, 09:11 PM
Could we use this list to make a shirt of accomplishments of both coaches.
You have done a great job with the greatest coach but give Dean his due as a coach in the ACC.

Dean most first half games with no points
Dean most final four ejections
Dean most times changing the score himself
Terry Holland named his dog Dean cause it whined all the time
Dean even built loyalty from the opponent as those teams helped out at the end for both of his questionable titles see Fred Brown and Chris Webber
I'm sure the great minds of this board will have many more wonderful items to add to this list but i will add one last note below.

Dean at the top of his coaching acumen got to see K
Go to 7 of 9 FF and play in 4 of 5 championship games.
That had to be a bitter time for Dean as he may
have expected a finger point from K for the motivation to accomplish what he did as a coach.
Ill give Dean credit it's taken years for some to realize he was # 2 but I've thought of Dean as #2 for as long as I can remember.

Think that's why the paperless classes began at uncheaters? :cool: GoDuke!

wilson
02-04-2015, 09:41 PM
Tonight was K's 423rd ACC win, surpassing El Deano.

OldPhiKap
02-04-2015, 09:50 PM
See Ya, Dean!

Someone will pass K in total wins some day, but hard to see this one dropping for a long long long long time.

-bdbd
02-04-2015, 10:55 PM
Dean who?

throatybeard
02-05-2015, 08:22 AM
Tonight was K's 423rd ACC win, surpassing El Deano.

Sweeeet. We just need a couple more final fours up in here, and no one outside of Carolina fans will even mention him again.

Duvall
02-05-2015, 08:26 AM
Sweeeet. We just need a couple more final fours up in here, and no one outside of Carolina fans will even mention him again.

That's already happening anyway. There's college basketball prehistory, the Wooden Era, the Krzyzewski Era, and the era of some guy who may not even have his first coaching job yet.

MarkD83
02-05-2015, 08:34 AM
Now it makes it easier for unc to vacate those wins from 1989 until 1996 since the acc will be changing the record book anyway

throatybeard
02-05-2015, 08:36 AM
That's already happening anyway. There's college basketball prehistory, the Wooden Era, the Krzyzewski Era, and the era of some guy who may not even have his first coaching job yet.

Dean and Rupp, sittin in a tree, kay eye ess ess eye en gee.

I hope Brad Stevens (43-87) is enjoying getting his butt kicked in Boston. He really could have done something special in college basketball.

-jk
02-05-2015, 08:51 AM
...

I hope Brad Stevens (43-87) is enjoying getting his butt kicked in Boston. He really could have done something special in college basketball.

Shh... It's part of K's master plan: the Celtics are keeping him off the NCAA marker for us. (Why else would we have not one, but two! Pagliucas on the team?)

-jk

OldPhiKap
02-05-2015, 09:15 AM
Sweeeet. We just need a couple more final fours up in here, and no one outside of Carolina fans will even mention him again.

Well, he will be remembered as the guy who ran such a boring and exasperating strategy that they had to institute a shot clock.

So, there's that.

But otherwise agree -- Dean is only a figment in the memory of the "I-didn't-like-Katy-Perry-and-get-off-my-lawn" crowd. (Yours truly included).

Duke95
02-05-2015, 09:38 AM
Dean Smith was a great coach, and he deserved a better fan base than UNC's.

Duvall
02-05-2015, 09:44 AM
Dean Smith was a great coach, and he deserved a better fan base than UNC's.

Did he, though? At the risk of speaking ill of the ill, how much of the arrogance of the UNC faithful was shaped and encouraged by the smug superiority of Dean Smith?

luvdahops
02-05-2015, 09:58 AM
Did he, though? At the risk of speaking ill of the ill, how much of the arrogance of the UNC faithful was shaped and encouraged by the smug superiority of Dean Smith?

Fair question. Dean in his prime was incredibly disingenuous and condescending. K is far better liked and respected by his peers on a personal level than Dean ever was.

weezie
02-05-2015, 10:04 AM
Between cigarettes?

Yeah, ugh. Cigarettes are much more disgusting than swearing.

throatybeard
02-05-2015, 10:39 AM
Well, he will be remembered as the guy who ran such a boring and exasperating strategy that they had to institute a shot clock.

Don't forget pointing. He invented the use of the human index finger, I'm told.

And signalling that you're tired. It's all about the innovations, man.

throatybeard
02-05-2015, 10:43 AM
Fair question. Dean in his prime was incredibly disingenuous and condescending. K is far better liked and respected by his peers on a personal level than Dean ever was.

I know Feinstein gets a lot of negative run around here, but he documented this fairly well: Dean was routinely a complete [unpleasant person] to younger coaches coming up in the league.

Krzyzewski has nurtured a lot of them and treated them as equals. There's a reason that, after they leave the league and become broadcasters, they speak highly of him, even though he can be prickly with the media under certain circumstances.

DevilWearsPrada
02-05-2015, 10:55 AM
Shh... It's part of K's master plan: the Celtics are keeping him off the NCAA marker for us. (Why else would we have not one, but two! Pagliucas on the team?)

-jk


JK, That's a very good observation and comment about Coach Brad Stevens. Brad is certainly off the NCAA grid at the moment, with being the Head Coach of the Celtics! Owner, Steve Pagliuca has deep rooted in Duke Basketball, having played himself along with his two sons! I thought Coach Stevens was having a tremedous college coaching career at Butler University and was so well loved there also.

Congratulations to Coach K on having more than 1000 wins, and passing Dean Smith's Acc record last night. A great post game for Coach K after the game. I don't see Coach K's personal records being broken anytime soon.

Olympic Fan
02-05-2015, 02:18 PM
As far as the record book goes, there are still a couple of small things that K needs to do to totally knock Dean off the top:

-- Career Final Fours (K and Dean are tied with 11 ... Wooden has the most -- 12)

-- ACC championships (K and Dean are tied at 13, which by the way, is more than any other SCHOOL)

-- Dean leads K 58-55 in ACC Tournament wins ... they are tied in titles and K's ACC Tournament win percentage is better, but K needs four more tourney wins.

Just small things, considering K has more wins, more NCAA titles, more NCAA wins, a better career winning percentage at Duke ... but it's always nice to knock Dean down a peg.

Duke95
02-05-2015, 04:43 PM
Did he, though? At the risk of speaking ill of the ill, how much of the arrogance of the UNC faithful was shaped and encouraged by the smug superiority of Dean Smith?

I don't remember Dean Smith as being smugly superior. I though he was a guy doing his job of coaching his team.

And anyway, are people here actually arguing that Smith wasn't a great coach? I mean, really. You can dislike the guy as a person, but he could coach hoops.

OldPhiKap
02-05-2015, 05:35 PM
I don't remember Dean Smith as being smugly superior.

Oddly, I remember that as his dominant trait.




And anyway, are people here actually arguing that Smith wasn't a great coach? I mean, really. You can dislike the guy as a person, but he could coach hoops.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Dean was not a top coach in his time. Just a very unlikeable one who has been eclipsed.

hurleyfor3
02-05-2015, 06:57 PM
The enmity between Dean and the rest of the ACC could be cut with a chainsaw, heated to 375° and cooked french fries in.

K has never really fostered that kind of resentment conference-wide. Certainly not outside of Gary Williams. Other schools' fans hate him (and us), but between "front offices", not so much. Dean never had the kind of relationship K had with Jimmy V, or has now with Boeheim.

Atldukie79
02-05-2015, 07:22 PM
Time heals many wounds. Perspective allows us to recognize the sustained performance of UNC under Dean. And on a personal level one can only feel sympathy for his health situation.

But it does not take much for me to recall Dean in his prime and how my peer group viewed him.

The most common words/phrases we might have used to describe his negative attributes:

snide
superior
excuse maker
holier than thou
manipulator
condescending
sarcastic

Now, I feel better.

devildeac
02-05-2015, 07:26 PM
Time heals many wounds. Perspective allows us to recognize the sustained performance of UNC under Dean. And on a personal level one can only feel sympathy for his health situation.

But it does not take much for me to recall Dean in his prime and how my peer group viewed him.

The most common words/phrases we might have used to describe his negative attributes:

snide
superior
excuse maker
holier than thou
manipulator
condescending
sarcastic

Now, I feel better.

I believe you omitted one (hint):

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/asset/colleges/unc/2014/10/22/14104501/148975-UNC-FINAL-REPORT.pdf

(cheater)

throatybeard
02-05-2015, 07:54 PM
Oddly, I remember that as his dominant trait.

That's not odd, because it was his dominant trait.

OldPhiKap
02-05-2015, 09:49 PM
That's not odd, because it was his dominant trait.

Amen, Brother.

I found Dean to be an overbearing, sanctimonious, haughty bully who treated his critics with a patronizing "bless his/her heart" because they just couldn't fathom or relate to The Carolina Way of How Things Should Be Done. And the whole damn thing was a fraud.

Make no mistake, Dean was great coach. Perhaps the best tactician and game coach of his time, especially in end-of-game time management. On par or even better, I would say, than K. And I am truly sorry that he has developed an illness which I would not wish on anyone, Dean expressly included. I wish him nothing but peace and contentment in his autumn years.

But I literally did a dance when I heard that the SOB retired. If that makes me a bad person, I will own it. I have no choice, I would be a hypocrite to report anything different.

-bdbd
02-06-2015, 12:12 AM
Now it makes it easier for unc to vacate those wins from 1989 until 1996 since the acc will be changing the record book anyway

Not with "baby blue" Swofford in the cat-bird's seat...

throatybeard
02-06-2015, 09:05 AM
Amen, Brother.

I found Dean to be an overbearing, sanctimonious, haughty bully who treated his critics with a patronizing "bless his/her heart" because they just couldn't fathom or relate to The Carolina Way of How Things Should Be Done. And the whole damn thing was a fraud.

Make no mistake, Dean was great coach. Perhaps the best tactician and game coach of his time, especially in end-of-game time management. On par or even better, I would say, than K. And I am truly sorry that he has developed an illness which I would not wish on anyone, Dean expressly included. I wish him nothing but peace and contentment in his autumn years.

But I literally did a dance when I heard that the SOB retired. If that makes me a bad person, I will own it. I have no choice, I would be a hypocrite to report anything different.

This is a brutally honest, awesome, and just takedown, but you forgot one important angle. It may be that it's less his fault than those of his acolytes, but the way it has gotten baked into the Dean legend is irritating, and I never heard him say anything to dissuade this particular apotheosis of him. I'll try to keep this as un-PPB as I can.

Most white Carolina fans would have us believe that Dean was the first and possibly only white ally for Civil Rights in sports in the South. As Olympic Fan has demonstrated (I'd have to go look up the post), this is laughably inaccurate. But even ignoring mere accuracy, this is rather problematic for at least two reasons.

The first is that white allies often get disproportionate credit in eras like the Civil Rights Movement--to take a current example, there's a whole discourse taking place on whether LBJ gets enough credit in Selma. You really shouldn't get extra extra credit for doing the right thing when you're in the empowered group, at least if you live a comfortable life coaching basketball rather than getting roughed up on a bus in Mississippi or with a fire hose in Alabama. But this is a given. Let's move on to...

...second, at least when I lived in North Carolina in parts of the 1980s, 1990s, and early 2000s (I left for good in 2004), the Dean Civil Rights narrative had eclipsed just about every other Civil Rights event except maybe the Greensboro lunch counter sit-in. I lived in North Carolina when I was a little kid. I never heard about actual civil rights martyrs who were white, like Goodman and Schwerner of Chaney/Goodman/Schwerner, James Reeb, Viola Liuzzo, Paul Guihard, and William Moore. I had to move to the Deep South to hear about them! I literally did not know that Dean Smith wasn't the only white guy besides JFK who helped out with this thing. My mother was a social worker who was basically the point guard for counseling the AfAm kids when the schools were integrated in Durham. She gave me a very basic working knowledge of Till, Hamer, Evers, the Abernathy family, and obviously MLK. Just about everything else I learned about Civil Rights before I moved to Georgia had to do with Dean Smith.

I also never heard about anything else w/r/t race relations in North Carolina that didn't have to do with Dean or maybe the Greensboro lunch counter. I never heard about the Lumbee Indians running the Klan off in Robeson County, NC in 1958, until I was doing fieldwork as an adult down there and Lumbee folks told me about it. I never heard about the Greensboro Massacre in 1979. All I ever heard about was Saint Dean supposedly leading the charge. What he did on this issue is good, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't live up to to the Tar Heel hagiography of Dean Smith, and it does his actual legacy a disservice to exaggerate it.

Something similar has happened with Bear Bryant among Alabama fans. And he did less progressive stuff than Dean did.

By the way, walk up to a Carolina fan in Wal-Mart or Kroger and ask them who was Governor of North Carolina when Dean Smith came to North Carolina. If the ~3% chance they know turns up a winner, ask them what Terry Sanford did after that.

grit74
02-06-2015, 09:34 AM
If one is steely enough to pull it off(which I seldom am but have done), a nice response in NC and esp. Chapel Hill is to praise Dean's civil rights contributions, and point out how courageous he had to be, to face down the racism of Chapel Hill natives and UNC fans. If you are lucky, you can point out that Dean had to overcome the racism of people just like the person you are talking to, or their parents and grandparents.

If one thinks their family wasn't part of the problem, then they must think the rest of Chapel Hill was--was well as the rest of North Carolina. If not, where was the courage.

And, when that is deflected, I can remind them that college basketball had been integrated for years, that Duke and Maryland led the ACC here, and so on.

None of this is intended to comment at all on Dean's efforts, only on the attitude of his idolaters.