MBB: Ohio State 85, Duke 63 Post Game Thread [Archive]

Greg_Newton

11-29-2011, 11:39 PM

Cut talks a lot about the football team "competing". We didn't tonight, pretty plain and simple. A step and a second slow on every play. 50/50 balls went 100% to OSU. We got beat back on our heels and never settled down and played confidently with purpose.

I will say that Gbinije was the exception to this. He came in and played strong, aggressive basketball, shutting down Buford (save for that ridiculous last 3) and getting his hands on a lot of balls.

Rivers and Mason also were great tonight. Given that they are considered our two biggest question marks that could eventually propel us to the next level, that's not insignificant.

As I've said a few times before, I think Rivers needs to take over a significant portion of the ballhandling duties, which would help Curry and others. But I'm too deflated to argue that very much right now...

throatybeard

11-29-2011, 11:39 PM

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

11-29-2011, 11:40 PM

Reminded me eerily of G-Town 2010 and Arizona back in March. Maybe we got our embarrassing loss out of the way in November this year.

Out played, out shot, our hustled, our defended... Can't say enough.

Also, please, anyone who says we were "tired" - please elaborate. I think six days of rest for a bunch of 18 and 19 year old kids should be more than sufficient. They just looked thoroughly defeated.

Congrats OSU - I sincerely hope we meet you come March. I'd love to see Sullinger without that smarmy smile.

Wheat/"/"/"

11-29-2011, 11:41 PM

Good tough game from mason... 12 offensive post scoring attempts by my count.

0 from miles or kelly.

The sun rises tomorrow, good night.

Gthoma2a

11-29-2011, 11:41 PM

We got outclassed in a way that really hurts to admit, but here's to growing. This team has a lot of potential, but I am not sure we can catch up with Ohio State this season. Tonight may be an outlier for both teams, but they were in another league in this game (they were on fire and we seemed dead from the start; evident by starting 0-9). They earned the win and we earned the loss. I respected them coming in, but I was hoping it would just be a close battle. What really sucks that we have played the hard part of our schedule (until February), because now we have to rely on others losing to move back up to where we were. Rankings may mean nothing, but they sure help keep loudmouths from the other shade of blue away.

BlueDevilBaby

11-29-2011, 11:41 PM

Didn't even watch after down by double digits. Felt like Arizona game. OSU could do nothing wrong. Next play.

Teton Jack

11-29-2011, 11:41 PM

Man, that was ugly. I was pleased with Mason's play, but their guards really took it to Dawkins and Curry. We had that brief spell where we had help defense contain them, then they spread the court more effectively and we just couldn't cope. I don't want to think anymore.

PSurprise

11-29-2011, 11:42 PM

CLW

11-29-2011, 11:42 PM

Rivers and MP2 played hard tonight. Kelly, Curry, Dawkins were largely no shows and deservedly went to the pine in the 2nd half. I thought Silent G, Cook and Hairston all played pretty well so that was nice to see.

Another + there was no silly court storming. I cannot remember the last road L where it didn't end with a court storming.

I just don't think our starting perimeter (Curry, Rivers, Dawkins) are quick enough on the defensive end to extend the pressure as guards are killing us with the drive all year long. Perhaps time to consider a more "contain" style defense circa 2010?

A much needed week "break" to regroup and perhaps tinker a bit with the squad.

feldspar

11-29-2011, 11:42 PM

Who cares. It's November. We came in as a dog on the road, and got beat worse than expected. Meh.

Phone me when a regular season loss keeps us out of the NCAAT or is against Carolina. This was no fun, but it's of little consequence.

I think "who cares" is probably a bit much. I'm sure Coach K cares that we got blown out. I'm sure he's also ready to move on to the next play. In the long run, no, this loss doesn't really mean much, but anyone who is a true competitor doesn't like getting blown out like that.

licc85

11-29-2011, 11:46 PM

I knew it was going to be tough to come out with a win, but man, that was a disappointing performance. Andre, Seth, and Ryan really phoned it in, and really didn't play up to our usual standard on defense. This was the first game all year where it seemed as if the other team played every play harder than we did. I'll give them credit for that, but I'm extremely disappointed in our lack of effort. I would have been fine with a loss if we left it all out there and got beaten by a better team, but that's not what happened.

UrinalCake

11-29-2011, 11:47 PM

dukelifer

11-29-2011, 11:47 PM

Discuss the game here but keep it civil. We were beaten by a very talented team.

Well it could have been worse. Circle the wagons and take it out on Colorado State. Duke was not ready for the atmosphere and talent level. But it is early. In recent years, Duke has struggled with their first real road games. Tonight was not their night and OSU was really on fire. A bad combination. Rivers showed his competitiveness which was good to see- and liked what I saw from Mason all night. Josh Hairston also played very well. Not sure what happened to Kelly and Curry- but matchups were an issue against their 6' 7" players. Duke might be able to hang with OSU at home or on a neutral court- but they are definitely ahead of Duke right now. Will be interesting to see how they progress. I expected a big loss given the tough early schedule and travel- not quite this bad - but this is not March. Lots of time to get better.

FerryFor50

11-29-2011, 11:47 PM

The good:
- Austin Rivers not backing down and playing a solid overall game
- Mason Plumlee more than holding his own against POY candidate Jared Sullinger
- Silent G, Hairston and Cook playing solid minutes in garbage time
- stronger 2nd half, but too little, too late
- not quitting, all the way down to the buzzer

The bad:
- Dawkins and Ryan Kelly's disappearing act (to be fair, Kelly just didn't really get any touches)
- easy misses down low by Rivers and Plumlee - gotta finish those
- the refs early - they got better later, but the game was out of reach by then. Hate the "let em play" style of officiating, ESPECIALLY against Big 10 or Big East teams, who thrive on physical play
- Not being strong on the boards
- bad team defense and allowing the opposing team to shoot 57%

The ugly:
- letting Aaron Craft light us up for 17
- the lack of consistency of effort; closed up an 11 point lead and then gave up an even bigger lead
- seemingly resting on our laurels after a solid start of the season
- having to hear Tarhole fans talk about "this is why Duke doesn't schedule tough true road games" as if UNC does, and as if Duke didn't already have 3-4 quality wins to UNCs 1.

I don't think this game was as bad as the final score. Some positives came out of it, and a loss is a loss, regardless if it's 10 points or 20 points. A good butt kicking helps sometimes.

Fuqua's Finest

11-29-2011, 11:47 PM

This game was all about Rivers and Plum 2. The rest of the starters stayed in Durham.

While there were a lot of disappointing performances tonight, Miles Plumlee looked like a freshman out there. Ryan was a complete non-factor for a team that was just more athletic than we are. Andre looked lethargic as always. If he doesn't score early, he's a non-factor. I think we should design some plays for him early on to get him in the flow, but I'm not the coach.

I did like Gbinije's defensive intensity. He can really move his feet probably better than anyone else out there. We need a "true PG" so Seth can focus on what he does best. Hairston provided some good minutes and hit some smooth jumpers. He just looks so out of control most the of the time. A foul waiting to happen on defense. I could go on and on, but overall OSU just kicked our butts from the beginning. I think we were surprised at how skilled they were and we really just wilted. We have a lot of cupcakes from this point on til ACC time so here's to improving in all facets of the game. This game truly showed that OSU is in a different class than Duke at this point in the year. Not very surprising considering what we lost to the draft and what they didn't lose.

jipops

11-29-2011, 11:47 PM

Devilsfan

11-29-2011, 11:47 PM

We will get better. Are we athletic enough to play with a Ky. or tOSU? I don't know. Many players get better and better. A service analogy would be the few, the proud that are good enough to become Marines.

The Gordog

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

It's over.

...

Ha ha, just kidding.

Just no answer on the defensive end and all the bounces went their way. OSU earned it. Ryan, Seth and Dre looked really out of it, Tyler thought he was JJ after one otherworldly minute in the last game, and while Rivers had some good plays he couldn't quite get to the point of demanding a double team becasue he just has no consistency. I hope he gets there by the end of the year a la Elton Brand at the end of 1998 (but without the injury.)

sbroc012

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

So going into the year I kind of figured there might be a game or two like this...given the lack of leadership on the team, I just didn't think it would be tonight after how we had been playing in Maui. But then again, I look at this game and should have recognized that this might be one of them, first true road game and it was against a real good team, I think this is going to be chalked up to "growing pains" for a young team. And on a side note...NO ONE can stay in front of Rivers, he just has to learn how to fully use that advantage.

Greg_Newton

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

I just don't think our starting perimeter (Curry, Rivers, Dawkins) are quick enough on the defensive end to extend the pressure as guards are killing us with the drive all year long. Perhaps time to consider a more "contain" style defense circa 2010?

A much needed week "break" to regroup and perhaps tinker a bit with the squad.

Good point. If nothing else, this kind of loss forces K to acknowledge this team's shortcomings during a month-and-a-half period in which we play no top-25 caliber teams.

Hopefully we can figure something out between now and mid-ACC season, maybe even with Gbinije/Murphy emerging in the meantime.

dukebluelemur

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

Highs
- Rivers is a stud. His ability to get to the rim is uncanny.
- Mason about 50% of the time, when he wasn't trying to dribble it in from the arc or throwing it out of bounds or not blocking out Sullinger.
- Fun seeing some new faces. I guess.

Lows
- Our team captains failed utterly and completely. I think Kelly disappointed me most, I don't remember him doing anything at all. At least with the others I remember seeing them in the game. It is really sad when guys picked to be the leaders on the team are being relegated to the bench as punishment for half the game. Miles I guess wasn't all that bad, but thats more due to lowered expectations.
- Dawkins also had a really poor game, but at least he wasn't a captain.
- We ran no offense that I could see, so our only offense came from people who could generate their own. We have about 1.5 of those.
- Defense was atrocious. Wide open jump shots, innumerable tip-ins. Sigh.

Here's to seeing K work his magic. He certainly won't lack for teaching points after this.

Gthoma2a

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

Our defense against opponents with talented guys in the 6'6"-6'9" range might be an issue with this team. I hope that Mike and Alex can get into the rotation to see what they can do, especially defensively. Ryan is just not able to match up against these 'athletic' guys and it showed tonight.

We need to learn from this and move on. Congratulations to OSU who deserved this victory.

I have thought for a while that the problem for us was throwing Dawkins at the 3 and having Curry handling the ball against fast guards. They are both great players, but Dawkins will have to guard a bigger guy and shoot over a guy with 4 inches of height on him (he doesn't drive much at this stage) and Curry is a solid player without that ability to separate against top guards yet (like Nolan could... God I miss that guy). We may need to develop Gbinije or Murphy (considering Murphy hasn't played this season, probably Gbinije) just for them matching up better against the top teams.

fc3

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

Woof. Not a good team effort. Good individual effort by MP2.

throatybeard

11-29-2011, 11:48 PM

Then again, you are...well...you.

This is not a threat from a moderator, at all, but were I you, I would not spend much time urinating in the eye of the very guy who spent a lot of time and energy trying to get your posting privileges restored on this board. Again, not a threat, just a preference about how I'd like to be treated as a dude.

Kfanarmy

11-29-2011, 11:50 PM

What is there to say? Total beat-down by a really good team. I am not sure there's a whole lot of "X's and O's" stuff to say, I'm more concerned about attitude and mental toughness - that's what I think this game really exposed.

There's a lot of Xs and Os stuff tonight. No team movement on offense. When there was movement by anyone without the ball, it had little purpose. A couple of players got caught standing and watching Rivers, so that when he did get in trouble, there was no one to pass to. There were virtually no offensive sets. My guess is almost all of the points scored by Duke were due to the individual efforts of two players. For long stretches three of the five were simply there to hand the ball back and forth to each other. I'm not sure I saw an effective screen in the whole game. There was simply no team offense.

On Defense, there were a lot of late close-outs. Concentration on defending Sullinger meant Duke perimeter players needed to be sharp in executing against OSUs perimeter to enable help D. Instead they got lost, got screened, didn't recover, and let OSU take open shot after open shot.

I think there is a lot to work on Xs and Os. This is one of those games that will get coaching attention to do something more than rely on the individual talents of the players, and work on creating a team that can actually execute team offense and defense...which has yet to happen.

Extremely poor performance especially on D...the only reason OSU didn't score 100 is that they slowed the game down a bit in the 2nd half.

A lot of this can be fixed, but wow, the Duke players and coaches simply didn't show up for this one with any plan or energy. No significant adjustments on D. only significant effect on O was to put the bench in....

JayBean

11-29-2011, 11:51 PM

I wish we had played with more passion in the first half. But, we still had some positives overall.

I liked Mason's play and the fight in Austin. With some corrections and one other player joining them, that's a good core to build the offense around.

We have all been expecting some growing pains with this team; hoping that we see a lot of growth from this one.

What happened to Ryan? He had been so consistent until tonight.

We may see Silent G earn a few more minutes after tonight. Who knows.

duke09hms

11-29-2011, 11:51 PM

Our guys didn't look ready tonight. Maybe too much fun in Maui? I saw the most recent Duke Blue Planet video - playing in the sand . . .

- Anyway, our weak perimeter D finally got exposed in a loss. So far this year, we've been able to cover it up and win, but not today. Unlike the last 3 years (Nolan, Kyrie, E-Will), we don't have a single shut-down guard. Instead we have a few poor-to-adequate on-ball defenders.

- I think we can stop hearing "Seth has a NBA future" or "Andre reminds me so much of JJ." Seth's lack of lateral quickness got exposed today and couldn't really get going on offense. Man I wish Andre had more fight in him - kid is SO lackadaisical on defense.

- Good to see Austin and Mason standout. Austin is improving with every game, today showing the drive and dish to pick up some smart assists after good penetration. Also great to see that Mason can score on anyone in the country.

- You can chalk up the loss partially to - just one of those games. When bank-3s go in by guys (like Derrick Williams' buzzer beater 3) or random role players go off on you it just might not be your night. But also pisspoor defense by us as well.

- Our lack of a small forward-type player was also exposed this game. I hope Gbinijie will get more minutes going forward - will need him to defend those 6-6 to 6-8 wing players. Andre just can't cut it - either that or he remains inconsistent as always. Defense is one quality that should always be there, every game. I thought defense was what earned minutes at Duke - why is andre starting? Does he play well in practice but cant translate into games?

duke09hms

11-29-2011, 11:52 PM

Rivers looked like an NBA player, both in a good way and bad. Good that he can penetrate at will, and showed improved passing and ability to finish. Bad that he's essentially a one-on-one player who doesn't do much without the ball and causes his teammates to stand around a lot.

"Improved passing" and "Causes his teammates to stand around a lot" don't seem to jive. He seems to be a more than willing passer - his teammates other than Mason weren't doing jack tonight.

rthomas

11-29-2011, 11:53 PM

Tired team. Good luck too the team on exams! Get some rest.

feldspar

11-29-2011, 11:55 PM

This is not a threat from a moderator, at all, but were I you, I would not spend much time urinating in the eye of the very guy who spent a lot of time and energy trying to get your posting privileges restored on this board. Again, not a threat, just a preference about how I'd like to be treated as a dude.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's all just calm down now. I'm not trying to urinate in your eye. I'm just making a polite observation. And I'm keeping it civil.

I guess what I was trying to say is you do tend to be the debbie downer of Duke fans around here more often than not. Or kind of more like the school principal of Duke fans, handing out unofficial demerits for what you deem poor fan behavior. That's all. It just tends to grate on some people after a while, you know?

OldSchool

11-29-2011, 11:56 PM

Reminded me of the loss to St John's.

An athletic team overplaying us on the perimeter to shut down the 3, but we are unable to take advantage with back-door cuts or passing to the interior.

Ohio State is a very good interior passing team. Also, they were hitting pretty much everything as sometimes happens in one's home gym. I do like the way they use pull-up short jumpers and floaters to avoid charges.

At least AR and Mason got a lot of practice time working against a top team.

Their length and quickness bothered Seth to some extent, so essentially AR became our point guard. It is pretty clear that AR can take defenders off the dribble at this level almost at will. What AR is still developing is court vision, which will come as he gets more comfortable at this level and begins the see the court better and pass the ball to the right open man.

With his handle and ability to get into the lane, AR would be an outstanding point guard if he can develop his court vision and passing skills.

Mason needs to get the ball delivered to him a step closer to the basket. He is strong enough to get that hook shot over pretty much anyone, but he is typically starting out with the ball a little too far from the basket.

gcashwell

11-29-2011, 11:56 PM

I thought rivers looked improved tonight.

I would like to see miles get more minutes. I have been saying it all year long, but the guy knows how to be big.

Chris Randolph

11-29-2011, 11:57 PM

Agree with a lot of the posts. Mason and Rivers continue to improve game to game which I think is a very positive sign for the rest of the year. They are going to be awesome come ACC play and into March!

Dawkins play didn't surprise me, he is going to vanish in some games. Wish he wouldn't but that is who he is unfortunately.

Curry was a disappointment. Outplayed by Craft in every way. No intensity.

Kelly was a disappointment. Outplayed by Thomas in every way. Unlike Mason and Rivers, I don't see Kelly getting that much better as the year goes on. If he can just be a steady offensive prescence (10-14 pts) and play solid D, he will be huge for the team.

Ohio State looks great. If I'm an OSU fan, I'm pumped but a bit hesitant because they are almost peaking too soon. Everything worked for them tonight and Duke was flat. If we played them again in March, I'd feel real good about it.

This Duke team is going to be much like Carolina last year. Peak in conference play and into March!

dukepsy1963

11-29-2011, 11:58 PM

Sometimes learning hurts real bad..............damn, does this hurt..........whew.......:(

dukelifer

11-29-2011, 11:58 PM

We were beaten by a talented team, but I would love for us to face this team in March, or April. I would bank on a Duke win. OSU is not as good as they looked tonight and we are not as bad. If this game were not scheduled in the early part of the week after Maui I firmly believe we would have been watching different Duke team than tonight. I know it sounds like an excuse and I've probably beat it to death by now, but if you can go back and look at how ridiculously slow we are rotating over to any skip pass, or diagonal pass. There isn't a guy within 5 feet of many of the Buckeye's jumpers. Even 8 footers are wide open. Give a ton of credit to Craft, but you can make a team look extremely good when you don't guard them. We didn't look ready to play in this one. Just from how the guys looked out there and how we played defense, I don't think we were physically ready. The major credit goes to OSU's defense which did a terrific job on Seth and everyone else not named Austin or Mason.

I'm not worried about this result one bit. There are actually a few positives to take away from it. 1. It's November. 2. Mason has clearly stepped up to another level in the paint. OH WAIT! I thought all our bigs did was set screens!!??? 3. Austin will deliver in this type of environment. 4. Some nice defensive showings from Silent G. I'm sure there are more.

I agree. A letdown was expected after Maui. OSU is on a huge high with the Meyer hiring and this game was bigger for OSU than for Duke. Add in a night with bank three pointers and self-assists off knees and you have no chance. I am a bit worried about Duke's D - the intensity and communication- and I am sure K will make this is point of emphasis. OSU is very good- but like UNC they are fragile. Expect a swoon in March- but they got a big win. Give them credit.

jipops

11-29-2011, 11:58 PM

moonpie23

11-30-2011, 12:00 AM

ugh.....i wish that we had shown more fight in the first half....i'd rather ryan, dre and curry be sitting on the bench with 5 fouls each than be invisible... :(

one of those game......AZ, Gtown......knocked down hard and couldn't get up.......

guess i picked the wrong week to quit wearing that magic underwear....

jipops

11-30-2011, 12:01 AM

I think OSU's Dec 10 matchup @Kansas could be very interesting. Just have a hunch that the result of that game may have some thinking - "hmm, maybe they aren't as good as they looked on 11/29".

HoganLake

11-30-2011, 12:01 AM

CDu

11-30-2011, 12:01 AM

Question for anyone in the know. How many full practices did Duke get in before this one? How much time was the team able to spend viewing tape and then reacting to it. I ask because the team got back... what Thursday or Friday? Then I would assume had some time off for the holiday? Just wondering about available time to even prep for this game.

I would guess we got one practice in on Sunday maybe. I'd buy lack of prep time over tired legs given all of the time off after the Maui tournament.

feldspar

11-30-2011, 12:01 AM

Well, we only lost the second half by 3 points, and that was with three of our starters on the bench almost the whole time and OSU's starters staying in until 2 minutes left.

That's a positive.

Billy Dat

11-30-2011, 12:02 AM

Austin was a real warrior tonight - his talent shone through - but I worry about our ability to craft a team offense where he is effective without dominating the ball. He is an Iverson-style offensive talent, with AI's need to handle to be effective. I have liked our look better when we run the O through Kelly and Mason. That was impossible tonight.

Mason has been great. I think he's officially graduated to the next level.

The extended PT for Silent G, Cook and Hairston sends the "minutes are up for grabs" message heading into exams. We'll need those guys, anyway, especially Silent G's defense against athletic 3s. Curry, Kelly and Dawkins were nowhere to be found tonight. We can't afford all 3 of them to have a bad night.

Our first half defense was inexcusable. While Ohio State wasn't going to be beat tonight, we didn't help matters with our sad D. When Mason left with foul number 2, it was over.

Glad it's not the Sweet 16.

jipops

11-30-2011, 12:06 AM

I agree. A letdown was expected after Maui. OSU is on a huge high with the Meyer hiring and this game was bigger for OSU than for Duke. Add in a night with bank three pointers and self-assists off knees and you have no chance. I am a bit worried about Duke's D - the intensity and communication- and I am sure K will make this is point of emphasis. OSU is very good- but like UNC they are fragile. Expect a swoon in March- but they got a big win. Give them credit.

I don't think the Urban Meyer situation had anything to do with the result of this game. A banked in 3 and loose ball of the knee don't explain the story either. Remember, Curry banked in a baseline jumper as well.

I think Duke's D was a concern even before this game. It didn't become any more obvious after tonight. It has already been pointed out as somewhat of a concern. I actually think there are other factors playing into tonight's result. But we'll see as the season goes on if that is even remotely true, though by then tonight won't even matter.

dukeballboy88

11-30-2011, 12:08 AM

I know why they announced Meyer during tonights game, so he could coach the football team we played tonight. They got away with murder in the first half. I aint one to bring up officiating much but the one where the guy dove under Masons legs and tripped him in the first half and they called traveling, was the worst call of the year.

But I agree with several posts, we got outplayed tonight. I new that Thomas dude was a beast but the game I saw earlier made me think Craft was a weakness, boy was I wrong.

But you cant win them all so get back to Durham, practice hard and get ready for the next game. We will be fine.

lotusland

11-30-2011, 12:09 AM

Our defense against opponents with talented guys in the 6'6"-6'9" range might be an issue with this team. I hope that Mike and Alex can get into the rotation to see what they can do, especially defensively. Ryan is just not able to match up against these 'athletic' guys and it showed tonight.

We need to learn from this and move on. Congratulations to OSU who deserved this victory.

Yep. Nice to SG play well off the bench. Usually when Dawkins comes out we get even smaller at 3 with TT playing with Seth and Austin. SG gives us some size. Are we sure K isn't considering redshirting Murphy? We pretty much emptied the bench with exception of MP3 and Alex. This wasn't that great of a game for QC though. I really didn't know what to expect from OSU but they looked really talented and well coached. Some folks seemed to think Ryan would be a tough match up for them but I thought this was his worst game by far on both ends.

As everyone said AR and Mason were the only starters to play well. Austin is getting better defensively too. If we are going to have anything close to a lock down defender on the perimeter it wll be him but he still has a ways to go. Their guards were able to shoot, drive and feed the post pretty much at will so we need someone who can get in someone's grill and apply some ball pressure.

moonpie23

11-30-2011, 12:09 AM

our d was non existent, but they were hitting almost everything....

did 3 guys have career games?

COYS

11-30-2011, 12:11 AM

"Improved passing" and "Causes his teammates to stand around a lot" don't seem to jive. He seems to be a more than willing passer - his teammates other than Mason weren't doing jack tonight.

I actually thought Austin and Mason both missed out on some assists when they hit guys for wide-open shots but the shots just didn't fall. I enjoyed watching both of them play. Mason had some tough calls that went against him and resulted in turnovers or he may have had an even better night. The drive and dish plays from Austin to Mason (for the Alley 'oop) and the drive and dish to Miles for the slam in the early stages of the second half were things of beauty. Austin and Mason did more to keep the offense moving than anyone else tonight.

Really flat game from Ryan and Seth. Seth was also careless with the ball during a few key stretches. I expect both of them to bounce back in a big way. Remember, we've got guys in new roles across the board. While I'll be keeping a close eye on the perimeter D all season, I saw nothing else in this game that concerns me all that much. We will be a different team come March, much less January and February. I wish we played them in Cameron in February. I bet Duke shoots much better from three, turns it over less, plays better defense, and wins it by 8-10 points, pulling away on free throws at the end.

In 2005, #1 Duke blew #2 Texas out of the water behind a ridiculous 41 points from JJ Redick. It looked like Duke was the obvious title favorite and Texas a paper tiger. Texas ended up an Elite 8 team while Duke bowed out in the Sweet 16. This doesn't mean that Texas was necessarily better than Duke, but it does show that a lot changes before all is said and done. In 2010, everyone remembers the Georgetown beatdown. But that was not nearly as embarrassing as the beatdown we endured in Raleigh against a not-very-good Wolfpack squad. The margin was closer than this game (no banked threes or accidental self-assists off a defender's knee for a bucket in that game), but it made the Duke team look even worse. Come to think of it, the team was severely outplayed against the Badgers, too. Andre managed some impressive threes in the late stages to keep it respectable, but it was not pretty. None of those teams are as good as this year's OSU team. The 2010, team, of course, went on to claim the title, defeating even better teams than those they had lost to earlier in the season along the way. Obviously, I have no clue if this team will follow the same path, but we certainly can. This loss shouldn't diminish what the boys have already accomplished. It does show that we've got lots more work to do to make it all the way to the top. However, I'm sure they are more than capable of getting there.

Devilsfan

11-30-2011, 12:11 AM

One of the smartest people and biggest Duke fans I know said he believed we are on par with tOSU team. We were just intimidated and seemed coddled after winning a trophy for K in Mauii. Coach seemed so happy and emotional after the Kansas win that maybe he got a little soft with our boys as hard as this is to believe.

6th Man

11-30-2011, 12:12 AM

Kfanarmy

11-30-2011, 12:12 AM

Austin was a real warrior tonight - his talent shone through - but I worry about our ability to craft a team offense where he is effective without dominating the ball. I tend to agree with this. I've always thought a team's potential has a lot to do with assists. The one man show usually runs up against an off shooting night or a really tremendous defender, and the team doesn't have a habit of passing to open shooters or moving to get open....part of the consternation with adding KI back into the lineup last year is that it took Nolan completely out of the game. While KI is an ubeleivable talent, he couldn't replicate the teamwork that had developed while he was gone. Still believe Duke's only shot against AZ was to try to run them out of the gym, because Duke didn't have an offensive or defensive team at that point, but rather had a collection of individual scorers and defenders...which can happen if one person's scoring becomes more relied upon/important than teamwork.

feldspar

11-30-2011, 12:14 AM

I aint one to bring up officiating much but the one where the guy dove under Masons legs and tripped him in the first half and they called traveling, was the worst call of the year.

Well, let's be perfectly clear that Craft didn't dive under Mason's legs. He tripped, was laying there, and Mason backed up into him.

I've seen that play happen about four or five times, and every time I've seen it called a travel. I'm not sure what the rules justification is, but I'm looking into it.

If you'll recall a few years ago, Duke was playing at Wake Forest. Gerald Henderson went up for a rebound, one of his feet came down on a WF player, Hendo falls to the floor and is called for a travel. So, it's not like it's a completely unprecedented call. I just can't figure out the rules justification for it. I'm thinking it has something to do with the rule that every player is entitled to his spot on the floor, and if a defensive player does nothing to initiate contact (he's just lying there doing nothing), how can you reasonably call a foul on him?

Philadukie

11-30-2011, 12:14 AM

We were beaten by a talented team, but I would love for us to face this team in March, or April. I would bank on a Duke win. OSU is not as good as they looked tonight and we are not as bad. If this game were not scheduled in the early part of the week after Maui I firmly believe we would have been watching different Duke team than tonight. I know it sounds like an excuse and I've probably beat it to death by now, but if you can go back and look at how ridiculously slow we are rotating over to any skip pass, or diagonal pass. There isn't a guy within 5 feet of many of the Buckeye's jumpers. Even 8 footers are wide open. Give a ton of credit to Craft, but you can make a team look extremely good when you don't guard them. We didn't look ready to play in this one. Just from how the guys looked out there and how we played defense, I don't think we were physically ready. The major credit goes to OSU's defense which did a terrific job on Seth and everyone else not named Austin or Mason.

I'm not worried about this result one bit. There are actually a few positives to take away from it. 1. It's November. 2. Mason has clearly stepped up to another level in the paint. OH WAIT! I thought all our bigs did was set screens!!??? 3. Austin will deliver in this type of environment. 4. Some nice defensive showings from Silent G. I'm sure there are more.

Just wanted to second this post. Couldn't agree more. It's nice to see some measured perspective after a game like this.

Although understandably tempting, I'd caution anyone from drawing sweeping conclusions about unfixable fatal flaws or a fundamental inability to compete with elite teams. One could've said the same after the G-town loss in 2010. In fact, many did. Tonight was mostly about experience, leadership, and intensity. They can all be improved upon as the season goes on.

We'll continue to get better, and I'm confident from what I've seen so far, thst we'll have as good a shot as any elite team competing for the NT in March.

CDu

11-30-2011, 12:16 AM

our d was non existent, but they were hitting almost everything....

did 3 guys have career games?

One did (Kraft). Thomas had his game of the season. Sullinger and Buford do this often.

Bluealum

11-30-2011, 12:16 AM

I am not in the forget it and move on camp (tired, away game, they hit everything, next play, fuhgettaboutit, etc.). This means more than that.
I am not in the sky is falling we are alarmingly unathletic, this is just like Villanova/Arizona/... This team has more potential than that.

I think this result will be more beneficial to us than a close loss, as our weakness was exposed and we have answers waiting and time to develop those answers.

There is a difference playing against top level competition and mid level competition. It's why many great college players don't make it in the NBA and many great high school players don't make it in college. Intelligence and court savvy are huge, but so are quickness and agility.

Ryan, Seth, and Andre are highly skilled players who play the best against similar or inferior competition. Mason and Austin are our two lottery picks who play the best against the best competition, because they are not physically overwhelmed and their motivation increases. I don't think we NEED 5 elite athletes in our starting 5, but we need 3 to be a championship contender (we are already very good, so that is a given). The third is not one of Ryan/Seth/Andre because they cannot guard or score consistently when they have great athletes on them. Tyler, who is not a starter also falls into this camp I believe. It may be Cook or it may be Gbinije or perhaps Murphy whom we have hardly seen, but there are answers on our bench waiting for us this year.

I think it is a great game to have behind us going into December. The coaches will have time to tinker and the team will see the need for adjustments in slow motion replay many times over and should be highly 'coachable' after this game. I will be fascinated to see what adjustments are made moving forward.

I thought Mason and Andre were stellar in the face of that onslaught of threes, talent, hostile crowd, bad bounces, and lethargic teammates. Kudos to them, they looked like stars for us tonight and hope that is the game face we see from them all year long. We have our on court leaders now and they are good.

A-Tex Devil

11-30-2011, 12:17 AM

I will mention what I did in the game thread. I thought it was telling that the only two guys we had show up tonight are the guys with lottery potential. Or at the very least, interesting.

Also, this is a game where Kyrie or even a Kryie super lite would have helped a lot.

Finally, we sure do have a propensity for getting smashed once or twice a year by non-con opponents. Not just losses, but absolute whitewashes. Seems to have begun with the Villanova game. Glad this one doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully it kills any complacency of this team, of any, after Maui.

jipops

11-30-2011, 12:19 AM

I would guess we got one practice in on Sunday maybe. I'd buy lack of prep time over tired legs given all of the time off after the Maui tournament.

The hole in that argument is that OSU had equal time to prepare as their previous game was on 11/25. So then the major difference is that OSU has not had any travel since the previous game along with back-to back-to back games culminating in an emotional championship game. This goes with my mental/physical fatigue argument.

jipops

11-30-2011, 12:22 AM

Finally, we sure do have a propensity for getting smashed once or twice a year by non-con opponents. Not just losses, but absolute whitewashes. Seems to have begun with the Villanova game. Glad this one doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully it kills any complacency of this team, of any, after Maui.

I have had the same thoughts. This seems like an annual thing now. You can kind of look at the schedule before the seasons and circle the games that are likely to be one of these whitewashes. I'm afraid this may not be the last one we see this season though. I thought before the season began this team is going to be up and down and we just saw it in the span of two games.

superdave

11-30-2011, 12:22 AM

Kelly, Curry, Dawkins were largely no shows and deservedly went to the pine in the 2nd half.

I knew it was going to be tough to come out with a win, but man, that was a disappointing performance. Andre, Seth, and Ryan really phoned it in, and really didn't play up to our usual standard on defense. This was the first game all year where it seemed as if the other team played every play harder than we did. I'll give them credit for that, but I'm extremely disappointed in our lack of effort. I would have been fine with a loss if we left it all out there and got beaten by a better team, but that's not what happened.

Ryan, Seth and Dre looked really out of it, Tyler thought he was JJ after one otherworldly minute in the last game,

Dawkins play didn't surprise me, he is going to vanish in some games. Wish he wouldn't but that is who he is unfortunately.

Curry was a disappointment. Outplayed by Craft in every way. No intensity.

Kelly was a disappointment. Outplayed by Thomas in every way.

There's no excuse for a few of the things that happened tonight. Giving up 47 points in the first half means you collectively suck at defense. I bet OSU wont average 78-79 ppg this season. They play slow, so 47 points means you did not compete and fight. The Team D sucks and the efficiency stats will prove it. No excuses. Get a lot better or go home early.

Kelly and Dawkins were a combined 0-3 from the field in 34 minutes. Thornton was 0-2 in 8 minutes. None of the three added anything meaningful on either end of the court. No fight, just poorly directed, tired effort. Kelly and Dawkins are juniors. You do not go out like that when you are a junior. You find a way to stir up some energy and you find a way to make plays when you are a junior and you start for Duke. Didnt happen. This is a gut check for those guys. Do you want to be a role player or be a leader?

Seth got out-classed by Craft. He's definitely learning to play point, and is better suited to play off the ball more. I think Seth is going to struggle against the more physical teams. He's a finesse guy who needs to learn to create space on the offensive end with shot fakes, cross-overs and by keeping his head up to threaten the pass. He plays hunched, protecting the ball a good bit and it's easier to defend. Granted Craft might be one of the best defenders in the country, but Seth has been around the block and can learn some things from the tape.

People will want to praise Mason and Austin, but those were garbage minutes. No one should be proud. They made shots, but they played poor Team D as well.

Nothing to be proud of tonight. But this game, and this experience, will toughen these Duke guys. Some of them are green and some of them have been role players the last several years. This showed them what it takes to compete at the highest level. Work harder, get better, raise your game! Next play.

NYC Duke Fan

11-30-2011, 12:22 AM

The entire team, besides Rivers and MP2, seemed slow tonight. I would not be suprised if we find out that several of the team members have the stomach bug going around North Carolina.

Duke just does not play like that unless something is wrong.

Come on now, that is loser talk. Ohio State right now is just better than Duke....Periood, and probably will be better than Duke come March. They are more athletic and quicker. Duke should have a fine season but they probably will not be good enough to win the NCAA championship this year.

That is just being realistic and not taking anything away from this year's team. I thought that last year we had an excellent chance to repeat but the injury to Irving I believe equaled the playing field.

BigZ

11-30-2011, 12:23 AM

I kind of saw this coming. Duke was coming off a huge high in Hawaii and the team was going to be tired and going on the road against the number 2 team wasn't going to end well. This was a much bigger game for Ohio State though b/c it is huge for their program, they don't have that many big home games historically and yes they have built a nice program but they have never been in this situation.

superdave

11-30-2011, 12:25 AM

Also, this is a game where Kyrie or even a Kryie super lite would have helped a lot.

You did see Kyrie-light tonight. Austin got into the lane at will. He's getting better at finishing, but he's not there yet. The problem with that offense is everyone else stands and watches. Austin had two dump-offs for dunks. More of that will reduce his charges, give him more space and time to finish and keep the rest of the team involved. And our shooting % will go up.

verga

11-30-2011, 12:28 AM

were that Ohio St. is very good defensively and we're not, we are very slow in comparison to them, they had a great night in every aspect of the game and we didn't. I think the ceiling for this team will not be very high but that doesn't mean we can't have a successful season. I know K will work as hard as possible to get them on the right path.

feldspar

11-30-2011, 12:29 AM

One of the biggest problems in the first half (and, really, throughout the whole game) was Duke's inability to get everything in transition. It always seems like the offense is flowing more smoothly when our guys are able to get some transition plays going. There were almost zero tonight. Credit OSU for hitting shot after shot after shot and getting back and playing great half court defense. Really threw us completely out of rhythm.

COYS

11-30-2011, 12:29 AM

I am not in the forget it and move on camp (tired, away game, they hit everything, next play, fuhgettaboutit, etc.).

Ryan, Seth, and Andre are highly skilled players who play the best against similar or inferior competition. Mason and Austin are our two lottery picks who play the best against the best competition, because they are not physically overwhelmed and their motivation increases. I don't think we NEED 5 elite athletes in our starting 5, but we need 3 to be a championship contender (we are already very good, so that is a given).

The 2010 team objects! Only Nolan was an NBA caliber athlete in the traditional quick, run, jump mold. And even then, he's relatively average by NBA standards. Mason and Miles, who might also fit that description of an elite athlete, weren't even the primary post players during the championship run.

Also, history disagrees with your assessment of Curry. He went off against UNC last season all three times against a team full of NBA caliber athletes. Kelly took Robinson from Kansas off the dribble a number of times and Robinson might be a better pure athlete than anyone on the Buckeyes. I agree that Mason and Austin are needed in games like this. However, Ryan and Seth were about as bad as can be for them, tonight. They will not only play better in the future, they will play well against "athletic" teams.

FerryFor50

11-30-2011, 12:30 AM

Well, let's be perfectly clear that Craft didn't dive under Mason's legs. He tripped, was laying there, and Mason backed up into him.

I've seen that play happen about four or five times, and every time I've seen it called a travel. I'm not sure what the rules justification is, but I'm looking into it.

If you'll recall a few years ago, Duke was playing at Wake Forest. Gerald Henderson went up for a rebound, one of his feet came down on a WF player, Hendo falls to the floor and is called for a travel. So, it's not like it's a completely unprecedented call. I just can't figure out the rules justification for it. I'm thinking it has something to do with the rule that every player is entitled to his spot on the floor, and if a defensive player does nothing to initiate contact (he's just lying there doing nothing), how can you reasonably call a foul on him?

Difference is, Craft didn't just "happen" to be there. He dove at the ball and bumped Mason and ended up tripping him because he dove to the floor.

There may be no rules' justification, but it just looks like a pretty bad call.

I was more angry about the Sullinger pushing Mason with his lower body out of bounds on a drive that became a turnover with no call.

jipops

11-30-2011, 12:32 AM

I am not in the forget it and move on camp (tired, away game, they hit everything, next play, fuhgettaboutit, etc.).

I am. Because this game took place in November. Not January or February or March or April. November. It means about as much as UNC's loss to unranked UNLV. Nothing. That's me speaking as a fan. I expect the coaching staff to have a different approach, you know... since they are coaches, they probably should. More stuff to tweak, yell about, adjust, etc...

After tomorrow, I doubt I'll be thinking about this game anymore.

A-Tex Devil

11-30-2011, 12:40 AM

You did see Kyrie-light tonight. Austin got into the lane at will. He's getting better at finishing, but he's not there yet. The problem with that offense is everyone else stands and watches. Austin had two dump-offs for dunks. More of that will reduce his charges, give him more space and time to finish and keep the rest of the team involved. And our shooting % will go up.

I dunno. I guess I meant more of a true point. Austin played well tonight, but when he drove, he was shooting. I thought in the second half that Ohio State would start converging on him opening up the three, but they didn't need to worrry about the kick out because Austin wasn't going to kick it out. We needed someone to create for others tonight and we didn't have it.

jipops

11-30-2011, 12:42 AM

We were beaten by a talented team, but I would love for us to face this team in March, or April. I would bank on a Duke win. OSU is not as good as they looked tonight and we are not as bad. If this game were not scheduled in the early part of the week after Maui I firmly believe we would have been watching different Duke team than tonight. I know it sounds like an excuse and I've probably beat it to death by now, but if you can go back and look at how ridiculously slow we are rotating over to any skip pass, or diagonal pass. There isn't a guy within 5 feet of many of the Buckeye's jumpers. Even 8 footers are wide open. Give a ton of credit to Craft, but you can make a team look extremely good when you don't guard them. We didn't look ready to play in this one. Just from how the guys looked out there and how we played defense, I don't think we were physically ready. The major credit goes to OSU's defense which did a terrific job on Seth and everyone else not named Austin or Mason.

I'm not worried about this result one bit. There are actually a few positives to take away from it. 1. It's November. 2. Mason has clearly stepped up to another level in the paint. OH WAIT! I thought all our bigs did was set screens!!??? 3. Austin will deliver in this type of environment. 4. Some nice defensive showings from Silent G. I'm sure there are more.

Just remembered another huge positive. NO INJURIES! As far as I'm concerned, that is just as big as a win in November, if not more. No November win has ever defined a season. But November injuries have.

DukeHoopsGuru

11-30-2011, 12:43 AM

I've always had a "30 point" rule when it comes to losses. No team can lose by 30 points and win a title. It's a sign of mental toughness for highly ranked teams to lose by that much. Think of the Texas team in 05 that had a wealth of talent, and Duke just destroyed them. I really think if you look at the game from a 10,000 foot view you could see this coming:

1. All things being equal OSU is probably a better team than Duke. They just are. UNC, OSU, and UK are the top tier IMO.

2. The Urban factor. Don't under estimate it. I live in Ohio. They are nuts. The fans chanted Urban Meyer for cryin out loud. The city has been buzzin. I guess cheating does pay.

3. Emotional fatigue. It's real. It happens. The schedule has been nuts to date including a late night pre-Thanksigiving emotional win. The team has been up since the season started.

4. Duke's still learning to play with one another. The hot start took our eye off of that.

Add just those 4 up, and you could see it coming. Then you throw in the fact that OSU played as well as they could play, and you get just what happened. Road losses in November mean very little.........................unless it's by 30 points (my rule). I remember watching the 2010 G. Tech game much later in the season against a much worse team and thinking, "The critics may be right. Duke is slow, unathletic, and not very good." We all remember what happened after that.

PS - Silent G needs more of Andre's minutes.

OldSchool

11-30-2011, 12:47 AM

This game was very meaningful in terms of Austin's development. If we are going to be cutting down nets the last game of the season, AR will have to be our main man. This game was a big milestone for AR: 37 minutes with only 2 turnovers and 2 fouls against one of the top teams in the country. I think the Austin we will see in March will be a much more effective and accomplished player than the Austin of November.

One red flag: Mason's free throws. It seems that Mason will be our key big man against the elite teams. I'm not real comfortable right now about Mason going to the line at the end of games in March, but I expect that is the situation we will find ourselves in.

duke09hms

11-30-2011, 12:47 AM

PS - Silent G needs more of Andre's minutes.

Yes, defense is our Achilles heel. Not 3-point shooting. You could even argue we give Mike half of Andre's minutes - if only we knew which half Andre would disappear in.

Bay Area Duke Fan

11-30-2011, 12:47 AM

Kelley and Plumlees couldn't stop Sullinger. Similar to Derrick Williams last March.

duke09hms

11-30-2011, 12:50 AM

Kelley and Plumlees couldn't stop Sullinger. Similar to Derrick Williams last March.

False, Sullinger got his 21 and 8, not far off the 19 and 11 he averages for the season. We couldn't stop anyone else on their team - it seemed like half their team had career highs.

DUKIE V(A)

11-30-2011, 12:51 AM

As far as losses go, this was pretty painless and predictable. Overall, the team has done very well eight games into the season. This is deep team with lots of pieces. It will be interesting to see how the team progresses and how playing time is distributed as the season progresses. I expect this team to grow and improve substantially over the course of the season and be no lower than a 2 Seed come tournament time.

I do not think PT will be as clearcut this season and it will be a game to game type deal for a while. Coach K has an interesting challenge in that regard. I believe Duke will be better off if Hairston, Cook, and Silent G begin to win more minutes on a consistent basis. Hairston can shoot, plays solid defense, does not force things that are not there, and gets his hands on loose balls. He's rock solid and will only get better with more experience. Cook penetrates, distributes well (we need more ball movement out there), can score the ball (if needed), and plays good/hard on ball defense. Silent G has a size, athleticism, and defensive ability that is unique on this team. He could be a Brian Davis type with more offensive ability. I'm a huge fan. Once he gets into the rotation, he ain't coming out and will win more and more minutes.

A-Tex Devil

11-30-2011, 12:53 AM

Kelley and Plumlees couldn't stop Sullinger. Similar to Derrick Williams last March.

I would have let Sullenger get 35 if we could stop Thomas, Buford and Craft. They are why we lost.

OldSchool

11-30-2011, 12:53 AM

Kelley and Plumlees couldn't stop Sullinger. Similar to Derrick Williams last March.

It was the other guys that killed us. We can give up 21 and 8 to Sullinger over 37 minutes and win if we defended the other guys better. It wasn't Sullinger who hit 57% from 3-pt, it was the rest of the team.

hurleyfor3

11-30-2011, 12:53 AM

Did anyone for tOSU go for a Bootsy tonight?

throatybeard

11-30-2011, 12:56 AM

Did anyone for tOSU go for a Bootsy tonight?

No. A Bootsy is where a player no one expects to excel in an ostentatious fashion somehow goes off for like 38 or 40. OSU had several starters clustered around 20 points.

Kimist

11-30-2011, 12:58 AM

I seriously thought I was also having flashbacks to Arizona and/or Georgetown.

While I knew that Ohio State would be a formidable opponent, especially on their home court, I never expected the complete and utter destruction that was vested upon the Devils tonight.

I agree that it is early in the season, and we can (hopefully) learn from the experience, but doggone if such an embarassing loss is really difficult to take. Things started bad with the first possession (near 5-second call leading to desperation timeout) and quickly went downhill afterwards.

While "next play" is always in order, this game is going to leave a very sour taste for some time to come. It will take a long uphill climb to recover from a game where, for all intents and purposes, the wheels completely came off the wagon.

k

hurleyfor3

11-30-2011, 12:59 AM

No. A Bootsy is where a player no one expects to excel in an ostentatious fashion somehow goes off for like 38 or 40. OSU had several starters clustered around 20 points.

I figured enough of the supporting talent did well enough that someone may have set a career high. That's the slightly broader definition of a Bootsy.

DUKIE V(A)

11-30-2011, 12:59 AM

Andre Dawkins is a real enigma to me. The man has a silky smooth shooting stroke. He's shown he has some ups on rare occasions. He could be a stud, but just doesn't seem to have any drive to be that guy. I know we succeeded with Scheyer running the point, but Curry isn't what Scheyer was. Scheyer was brilliant in his role. I feel Curry is better served running off screens and being a spot up shooter. We lack the athletes to be elite I feel. Rivers is the only guy that can beat his man off the dribble.

Having said that, there are only a few teams that can do what OSU did tonight. I was pretty down on Duke when Georgetown spanked us 2 seasons ago. What did we do with our unathletic team? Won a National Championship!

One weakness I see in this team is a shoot first mentality in many of the players...the team will get better when it follows the lead of guys like Cook, Thornton, and Kelly who are willing to shoot when they are open but look to can others involved. I think this team has great potential to get there. If it learns to share the ball more, it could be scary good.

-bdbd

11-30-2011, 01:00 AM

I don't think the Urban Meyer situation had anything to do with the result of this game. A banked in 3 and loose ball of the knee don't explain the story either. Remember, Curry banked in a baseline jumper as well.

I think Duke's D was a concern even before this game. It didn't become any more obvious after tonight. It has already been pointed out as somewhat of a concern. I actually think there are other factors playing into tonight's result. But we'll see as the season goes on if that is even remotely true, though by then tonight won't even matter.

Boy, THAT was ugly, and painful!! Give OSU props, as we simply ran into a very good team, playing at home and really "up" (as was their crowd) for this game - with a bunch of odd plays breaking their way early that got things rolling. (That straightaway bank job (very different than a shot from the corner that glances the glass on the way in) and the deflection off of MP1's leg, several rebound bounces going straight to an otherwise outnumbered OSU rebounder, and even a couple shots that Duke defenders touched yet still bounced around and somehow found the basket.... Sometimes it simply ain't you're night. Disappointing to see us cave though. But K will get lot of motivation and "coaching opportunities" out of this game. I for one want to play them again - say in late March on a neutral floor... OK. Next play!

Mason and Rivers continue to improve game to game which I think is a very positive sign for the rest of the year. They are going to be awesome come ACC play and into March!

Dawkins play didn't surprise me, he is going to vanish in some games. Wish he wouldn't but that is who he is unfortunately.

Curry was a disappointment. Outplayed by Craft in every way. No intensity.

Kelly was a disappointment. Outplayed by Thomas in every way. Unlike Mason and Rivers, I don't see Kelly getting that much better as the year goes on. If he can just be a steady offensive prescence (10-14 pts) and play solid D, he will be huge for the team.

Ohio State looks great. If I'm an OSU fan, I'm pumped but a bit hesitant because they are almost peaking too soon. Everything worked for them tonight and Duke was flat. If we played them again in March, I'd feel real good about it.

This Duke team is going to be much like Carolina last year. Peak in conference play and into March!

You gotta like the never-say-die spirit of AR and MP2. But even AR will learn from this game. And some of the youngsters played with a solid effort (wow - Hairston can shoot!). Kelly and Dawkins just didn't show, and Curry too was very disappointing. We played "really young" tonight - intimidated by the fired-up OSU crowd, their inside strength, and some Big-10 style reffing, especially for the first 27 minutes. I too want to play these guys again, say in the Elite-8 or FF... :rolleyes:

FellowTraveler

11-30-2011, 01:15 AM

Obviously not a successful performance. Can't say the lopsided loss surprised me; Duke has shown signs that it can become a very good team this season, but it simply is not (yet?) at the level of the top few teams. Two quick reactions to the reactions I've seen:

1) Lots of talk of Kelly, Curry, and (especially) Dawkins phoning this one in. That's not what I saw. I saw Duke get whupped, badly, and those players certainly didn't perform well. But I didn't see them dogging it. I just saw them get outplayed, by a huge margin. Did no one else see Dawkins sprint the length of the floor, ending in a desperate head-first dive to try to save a ball heading out of bounds?

2) Similarly, while I was glad to see Hairston & Gbinije get some run without embarrassing themselves, I'm not as quick as some to interpret this as an indication that they should get more minutes at the expense of Dawkins or Kelly. Most of their PT came in the second half, in what was essentially garbage time. I hope they both develop, and it's probably a good idea to get them some PT in an effort to help them do so -- if nothing else, they are sized/shaped in a way that can be useful. But I'm not buying into the Dawkins was a dog; Gbinije looked great meme.

Anyway: Duke needs to get better -- both strategically and in terms of performance -- if it wants to compete at the highest level this season. If anyone on the team had forgotten that, they've been reminded.

DukeCrow

11-30-2011, 01:43 AM

I was at the game tonight at the back of the tOSU student section. The crowd was at least 10x more amped for this game than the only other big game they had this year -- Florida. This game was THE game for the tOSU bball season. Tickets were selling at prices usually only seen for the tOSU-Michigan football game. Some students even camped out. Granted, it was a very weak "camp out" consisting of only ~5 tents over a couple days, but it does show the level of excitement in Columbus for the game.

Our guys simply didn't bring the same intensity to the game. I'm not sure they could have. And it especially showed on defense. Hopefully, this type of beat down will be a motivation for this inexperienced team and will get them to focus on the areas that most need to be improved.

I am not in the camp that thinks we have a "low ceiling" this year or that we don't have a chance of reaching and exceeding tOSU's level of play. This team has a ton of offensive weapons but is raw defensively. It will be fun to see how this team develops over the season under Coach K.

OldPhiKap

11-30-2011, 06:18 AM

Congratulations to the Buckeyes, they played great and with wonderful energy.

Not much else to say, really. We got dogged.

Next play, would love another shot at them in March.

BluDvlsN1

11-30-2011, 06:21 AM

You did see Kyrie-light tonight. Austin got into the lane at will. He's getting better at finishing, but he's not there yet. The problem with that offense is everyone else stands and watches. Austin had two dump-offs for dunks. More of that will reduce his charges, give him more space and time to finish and keep the rest of the team involved. And our shooting % will go up.

Well said,superdave!
After Austin came back in,and made his umpteenth drive through traffic, the camera moved to Dwayne Wade talking to LeBron, I think he said "UN STOP A BLE"...

Enough has been said of the goods and bads of the game... But, I would love to see a shot chart to see all the misses we had within 5 ft of the rim (expected from time to time from the perimeter), but that close in, I just can't label it,big game jitters, exhausted, just don't know.. Really unexpected !

Buckeye Devil

11-30-2011, 06:28 AM

This was tough on me as a native Ohioan. I have followed Duke for 30+ years and have been a loyal fan. I wear my Duke attire proudly even though I have no affiliation with the school. I accept the glares and recently had a minor run-in with a UK fan (who instigated the incident) in the hospital parking lot as I was minding my business and walking to my car. My final comment was that I was sorry about their luck in the 1992 regional final. So I stand up for Duke basketball and follow it religiously. My office has Duke decorations to the dismay of many of my colleagues. I would love to go to a game in Cameron-it's about the only thing I want to do from my bucket list. I also used to be a season ticket holder to OSU basketball and have attended many games there over the years. OSU is a passion of mine even though I never went to school there either. The "Shoe" is a venerable old football stadium much like Cameron is to basketball. So you see the rub. Either way I was going to have some sour feelings after the game and they sure are there this morning.

With that said, I expected a Duke win and predicted it. Never did I expect that outcome. OSU has never defended the 3 like they did last night and in general I have never seen their defense play that well. I thought that Duke's perimeter game would be the difference with Mason being able to give balance on the inside. He did his job but there was no perimeter game as Austin dribbled and drove and most everyone else stood around watching. Duke's D was non-existent and looked a bit overmatched at this point. Duke played horribly but at the same time OSU could do no wrong. This was the regional semi-final against Kentucky last year in reverse. It was just one of those games and Duke needs to move on. This is a team that could make a good run this year but there was no way any team could have defeated OSU last night, especially at home, but I was disappointed in the way Duke played.

There is no way that the same result would occur if these two teams meet in the tournament. Duke is too good of a team and I believe has a definite edge in coaching. And things tend to even out over the course of a season. If I were a betting man, I give Duke the better chance of the Elite 8 than Ohio State.

oldnavy

11-30-2011, 06:35 AM

Dissappointed yes, shocked and or upset.... not really. For the most part we were flat both emotionally and physcially. OSU was on fire, emotionally and physically. They simply out played us on this night. Do I think that they are 20 points better than us in general, not at all.

No excuses, I hate excuses, but do keep in mind that this team has been on an incredible road trip. Traveling across 5 time zones and playing 3 games in 3 days, then coming back across 5 time zones will have an effect.

Bad night, but it is still November and OSU is a VERY, VERY good team that, if I remember correctly has not played outside of Ohio this year.

Again, not making excuses, but trying to put everything into perspective. I think that in the long run we will look back at this game and see more positives for the development of our team than we can possibly see right now. We have a coaching staff that will be able to use this loss to strengthen the team for the long run.

Best of luck on exams and enjoy the small break coming up guys.

Saratoga2

11-30-2011, 07:18 AM

OSU is a very athletic team who plays well together and even has solid depth that we didn't see that much of. Last night virtually every shot they took went in, although they obviously had many which were open looks. They killed us with second chance points as well. Right now we would be beaten by OSU 8 or 9 of 10 times.
A
That is not to say Duke didn't make a determined effort. The kids were really trying out there, but the OSU game plan was to play solid defense and not to allow Duke to shoot the 3. It certainly worked as we hit very few during the game. Andre is the easiest to defend, since he is stationary during long stretches. He got one open shot last night from 2 point range and missed. Seth is cagey but not super gifted athletically and was under pressure every time he got the ball. My hope is that Kelly could use his size to get off some open shots. That wasn't happening as he didn't get those looks. All three of those starters seemed to be a step slow defensively last night, probably since OSU is quick and athletic.

The good news is that Austin is the real deal, even against that level of athlete. He was able to penetrate and in some cases dished. Yes, the rest of the team needs to move to recieve the ball and react back on defense when Austin penetrates. Also, Mason played very well and even Miles had one of his better games.

I had hoped that we would get Josh and Quinn into the game to keep fresh legs out there and that happened. They provided at least something to both the offense and defensive side. I didn't expect Michael to get that much of a look, but after the first half, why not. He actually played better than the starter he replaced. The only non redshirt player who got no time is Alex. We might as well have given him some looks, as the game was lost.

Lots for coach K to do. Other teams who are athletic and quick will also try to exploit us in the way OSU did and lets face it, we are vulnerable. There probably aren't many teams out there that would have given OSU a competitive game last night, so we still can win a bunch along the way.

CDu

11-30-2011, 07:23 AM

The hole in that argument is that OSU had equal time to prepare as their previous game was on 11/25. So then the major difference is that OSU has not had any travel since the previous game along with back-to back-to back games culminating in an emotional championship game. This goes with my mental/physical fatigue argument.

Except that you are continuing to overlook the BIGGER hole in your tired legs argument that they haven't played in six days. That's just simply not a realistic answer.

hq2

11-30-2011, 07:25 AM

DukieInBrasil

11-30-2011, 07:52 AM

Ugh. I was super pumped after Duke pulled it back to within 1 after opening the game down 9. Then the wheels came off. Didn't even watch the 2nd half.
OSU really exposed the lack of speed/quickness in Curry, and the lack of height in Dawkins. We've been able to mask those deficiencies somewhat, largely due to the versatility of Kelly, who for some reason was totally absent from the O, perhaps b/c he was getting abused on D. Not sure what we can do really to ameliorate those weaknesses. Silent G may be able to defend taller, quicker players than Dawkins, but doesn't really provide much O at this point, not that Dre is overly consistent on that point. I suppose if Austin can continue to improve on his passing vs shooting decision making skills, that would allow Curry to move off of the "point". Credit OSUs D though, they were tough.
There are some teams that we just don't have the personnel to deal with effectively, just like OSU. Teams with good athletes in the 6'5-6'9 range are gonna give us fits, last night at least, we had no answer for that.
I must say that i was very pleased to see Austin emerge as a much better player last night, although he missed several layups that seemed very makeable. Mason also played as well as he's ever played, in a big-time game no less.

dukeballboy88

11-30-2011, 08:02 AM

BluDvlsN1
Enough has been said of the goods and bads of the game... But, I would love to see a shot chart to see all the misses we had within 5 ft of the rim (expected from time to time from the perimeter), but that close in, I just can't label it,big game jitters, exhausted, just don't know.. Really unexpected !

This is true. We missed some good looks early and OSU got a big lead. We fought back but I think we used to much energy on that 10 run. I think the game was won in the first half and I think it was more of what we didnt do. I still aint sold on OSU and after watching last nights game, Sullinger is to small to play power forward in the league. If he is supposed to be the #1 pick, Mason proved he is at least a top 20 if he can keep it up the rest of the year.

mkline09

11-30-2011, 08:15 AM

That game was an aberation. They happen from time to time. Ohio State reminded me of Duke at times playing in big games feeding off their home court and hitting every shot imaginable. At times it was like watching the Globetrotters play the Washington Generals. Amazingly enough I didn't break a single piece of furniture or throw anything. That has to be a first in a cluster like that game was. But I was anticipating something like this after the Belmont game. Maybe not to this extent, but I figured there would be a game or two where we all thought who is that team. They really still have no idea who they are as a team and it showed. I suspect a lot of reflection will take place as they have to stew over that game for a week. I trust the coaching staff will implement the right mix of motivation and hard work to get them ready to move forward. We all say it but it is time to move on to the next play. We fans need to have a short memory with regard to these games. Duke was not as bad as that and we will see that come March I believe. Now I'm sure Krzyzewski wants no part of forgetting that game especially his older players. Someone needs to take this team on their shoulders as a leader and right now I'm not sure who that will be. I figure some soul searching will take place and we will start to see one or more guys step up. Was discouraging to see one of the captains, Ryan Kelly, be so ineffective. I don't even think he played but a few minutes in the second half.

I did like the energy that Mike Gbinije gave when he was in the game, especially on defense. Saw flashes of what Quinn Cook can be but on the big stage he didn't look quite ready with that kind of deficit and that kind of hostile environment. I hate to say a loss like this is good for a young team, but in some ways it is. I loved seeing the videos and the swagger the team had in Maui, but sometimes that all can go to your head as a younger player and I think being humbled on national TV makes you better and hungrier and I think we will see that soon. I actually saw a Florida State blogger on Twitter say some about how he couldn't believe how Duke fans were so calm and not melting down. Jim Young of the ACC Sports Journal had the most appropriate response when he said that Duke fans realize that games in November don't mean much come March. And that is something I think we all can take solice in. It is a long season that was only game 8. Remember Duke lost Kyrie Irving after eight games and to me that was a far greater loss than a butt whipping at the hands of the No. 2 team in the country on their home court. This team will get better, there will be ups and downs, can't win them all, but I still like this team and I for one won't overreact after one bad game. I know some will and are but I think it is all a bit premature so don't jump.

Sgt. Dingleberry

11-30-2011, 08:24 AM

But, I feel encouraged watching tonight's game. The stretch where the offense went through Mason was impressive against a quality opponent and something I think should happen more and more.

Rivers also took a big step forward, I hope his confidence grows from this game. That was a big stage and he was arguably the most impressive player on the court. It was a matter of time before Rivers/Curry/Dawkins emerged as the "go-to guy", I think Rivers might have established himself as that guy last night.

The rest of the guys? It was just one of those nights....The stars in the crowd, the crowd itself and the refs seemed to inflate OSU and deflate our guys. We have a lot of time and a lot of basketball in which to grow.

The only problem I see which needs to be addressed is who is going to guard guys like Buford and Thomas moving forward. As of right now, we don't have a consistent answer to that question.

In other good news, it might be the only time we get Teddy V this season.http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ted-valentine/schedule It looks like he is doing more and more Big 10 and Southern Conference games. :D

cspan37421

11-30-2011, 08:26 AM

Clearly, Greg Paulus had his team well-prepared and they knew what to look for from us offensively. ;)

Good thing this only counts as one loss! It does give our coaching staff quite a bit to think about and work on. I doubt one game will cause a major overhaul of our starting lineup. Perhaps a tweak if one of the doghouse kids doesn't respond well in subsequent practice. But clearly we need to play better defense, and not just in the backcourt. We're a work in progress. And while Austin is a great talent, during that first half I could not help but wonder if there's not a good drinking game out there which would involve taking a swig when he beats his man yet misses the layup. Or when MP2 tries a crossover dribble from the top of the key.

It's going to take some work to integrate Mr. One-and-done into the rest of our offense. I'm glad he chose to play for Coach K, but more than occasionally I miss the fact that Duke used to be a 4-year destination even for surefire NBA talent (e.g., Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, GHill, Battier). It seems to me that those extra years would really help forming a cohesive unit ... not to mention that it seems to fit more with my idea of what Duke should be about (it's supposedly an academic institution first, not a way station or speed bump between HS BB and the NBA). JMO.

mkline09

11-30-2011, 08:37 AM

Clearly, Greg Paulus had his team well-prepared and they knew what to look for from us offensively. ;)

Paulus sold Duke out for some tats and autographs is what I heard. :)

roywhite

11-30-2011, 08:38 AM

DukeCaper

11-30-2011, 08:44 AM

After playing 4 games in 5 days, traveling to and from Maui, then going to OSU and playing on their court, I am not totally surprised by the result. I also noticed that Michigan also went down to Virginia. While they are young and superbly conditioned athletes that kind of schedule will take its toll. In general, I am pretty happy with the progress of this team.

davekay1971

11-30-2011, 08:47 AM

I kept an eye on the second half, but so halfheartedly that my long-suffering NC State fan wife began to mock me for being spoiled at longstanding Duke success. In her words: "Do you have any idea how many times I've watched State get our [rear-ends] kicked like this? Man up and support your team!"

Granted that she's right, but I just couldn't do it. I am spoiled, thank God, by 25 years of nearly uninterrupted excellence, where true butt-kickings suffered are memorable because they're such an aberration. So I ground my teeth, cursed, flopped, scratched, and growled my way through the first half and intermittently through the second half, and didn't go within a mile of DBR until this morning.

So, after a night of meditation, my thoughts:

1) Last night, Ohio State was a much, much better team, and they absolutely deserved that win. They dominated us on both ends of the court, and hats off to them for that. Having watched them, Carolina, KY, Syracuse, UConn, and us play, Ohio State, looks like the best team in the nation at this point of the season.

2) Mason and Austin were the only bright spots among our starters. That probably had a lot to do with Ohio State, but then again it's possible for Curry, Dawkins, and Kelly to all have a lousy night on the same night. I just hope that doesn't happen again any time soon.

3) We've got some nice young talent on the bench, and kudos to them for coming in and playing with heart.

4) There were a lot of lessons to take away from this game. Fortunately we've got the coaching staff to apply them correctly.

5) It's early in the season, an away game against probably the toughest team we'll play all year. We got it handed to us, but this Duke team should really grow and improve from this experience.

6) Next play.

7) My wife's a wonderful woman and she was absolutely right. Hopefully we won't be watching State suffer through similar pains tonight. Go Pack!!!

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

11-30-2011, 08:50 AM

Except that you are continuing to overlook the BIGGER hole in your tired legs argument that they haven't played in six days. That's just simply not a realistic answer.

I've made a few posts about what a ridiculous statement it is that the guys would be tired after six days between games, a turkey dinner, and time on the beach in Hawaii. However, this article (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/40536/ohio-state-emphatically-delivers-a-message) seems to support that statement.

From the article: Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said the fatigue from last week’s trip to Hawaii played a role in the Blue Devils’ struggles.

“I thought Ohio State played a great game against us. They were a fresher team,” he said. “I thought our team played tired.”

So much for my great insight! At any rate, getting run out of the gym is disappointing. I sincerely hope that we make great strides and get another chance against those jokers in March. Atoning for a loss is a beautiful thing.

DukieInBrasil

11-30-2011, 08:55 AM

Gotta give you folks who stuck with the game a lot of credit.
I couldn't do it; made it to the point where tOSU went back out to double digit lead after we had closed to 1 point.
When I saw Teddy Valentine prancing around the court (look at me) celebrating some dubious call against Duke, I knew it was not our night.
I remember that play and thinking "Wow, can a ref get a Technical for excessive celebration?"
I made it to the end of the 1st half, still hoping that there was a spark to bring us back a la after that first 0-9 deficit was overcome. Had we been able to hit one of those shots/not turn the ball over when we were down 1 with the ball, ie., take the lead at that point, i believe we would have had a completely different game. Our boys just weren't strong enough psychologically to shake off the downer of getting right to that point and not get over that last little bit. Right after that they let OSU reel off like a 16-2 run and the game was over.

davekay1971

11-30-2011, 08:55 AM

I've made a few posts about what a ridiculous statement it is that the guys would be tired after six days between games, a turkey dinner, and time on the beach in Hawaii. However, this article (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/40536/ohio-state-emphatically-delivers-a-message) seems to support that statement.

From the article: Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said the fatigue from last week’s trip to Hawaii played a role in the Blue Devils’ struggles.

“I thought Ohio State played a great game against us. They were a fresher team,” he said. “I thought our team played tired.”

So much for my great insight! At any rate, getting run out of the gym is disappointing. I sincerely hope that we make great strides and get another chance against those jokers in March. Atoning for a loss is a beautiful thing.

The answer may not be the travel. 6 days seems like long enough to recover from the travel and get your legs back under you. With MW3, Battlefield3, and Elder Scrolls: Skyrim all coming out in recent weeks, the team may have been fatigued from too many late nights XBoxing. Coach K should probably look into this. If Curry's got a level 25 Redguard with a dozen dragon kills under his belt, an intervention may be needed before the conference play begins...

ReformedAggie

11-30-2011, 09:12 AM

so I'd like to hear from those of you more intelligent about basketball. I don't agree that AR looked improved last night.
He made many defensive mistakes that forced other players to run to assist and leave their man, who then scored.
Our guys seemed to be out of place and out of focus for the entire game. The biggest issue I saw was the lack of
leadership on the floor. Someone has to step up and be the General out there. All that being said, these are
mostly teenage kids and they are going to regroup and use this lesson because K will see that they do.
One thing that struck me was that our guys found out how it must feel for other teams to play in Cameron.
Those fans were loud and proud.

MCFinARL

11-30-2011, 09:13 AM

There was simply no team offense.

On Defense, there were a lot of late close-outs. Concentration on defending Sullinger meant Duke perimeter players needed to be sharp in executing against OSUs perimeter to enable help D. Instead they got lost, got screened, didn't recover, and let OSU take open shot after open shot.

I think there is a lot to work on Xs and Os. This is one of those games that will get coaching attention to do something more than rely on the individual talents of the players, and work on creating a team that can actually execute team offense and defense...which has yet to happen.

A lot of this can be fixed, but wow, the Duke players and coaches simply didn't show up for this one with any plan or energy. No significant adjustments on D. only significant effect on O was to put the bench in....

Agreed, at least as to the plan--it's understandable we generally revere the coaches, as they have earned that. But sometimes they are going to have an off night too, and this seemed to be one of those times--there didn't seem to be any actual game plan on offense or defense (though it's possible there was a plan on defense and Duke was just totally outplayed anyway).

Kelly and Dawkins were a combined 0-3 from the field in 34 minutes. Thornton was 0-2 in 8 minutes. None of the three added anything meaningful on either end of the court. No fight, just poorly directed, tired effort. Kelly and Dawkins are juniors. You do not go out like that when you are a junior. You find a way to stir up some energy and you find a way to make plays when you are a junior and you start for Duke. Didnt happen. This is a gut check for those guys. Do you want to be a role player or be a leader?

Well, okay, I see your point. But to be fair, Kelly and Dawkins were closely (and obviously effectively) guarded. I'm not sure it would have been better for them to force up shots that had little chance to go in. Thornton's shots were more open, and it would have been nice for him to hit them--but he is not primarily an offensive threat and we probably shouldn't expect him to hit threes every game. Bottom line--OSU played better, and was better, than Duke.

1) Lots of talk of Kelly, Curry, and (especially) Dawkins phoning this one in. That's not what I saw. I saw Duke get whupped, badly, and those players certainly didn't perform well. But I didn't see them dogging it. I just saw them get outplayed, by a huge margin. Did no one else see Dawkins sprint the length of the floor, ending in a desperate head-first dive to try to save a ball heading out of bounds?

2) Similarly, while I was glad to see Hairston & Gbinije get some run without embarrassing themselves, I'm not as quick as some to interpret this as an indication that they should get more minutes at the expense of Dawkins or Kelly. Most of their PT came in the second half, in what was essentially garbage time. I hope they both develop, and it's probably a good idea to get them some PT in an effort to help them do so -- if nothing else, they are sized/shaped in a way that can be useful. But I'm not buying into the Dawkins was a dog; Gbinije looked great meme.

Anyway: Duke needs to get better -- both strategically and in terms of performance -- if it wants to compete at the highest level this season. If anyone on the team had forgotten that, they've been reminded.

I agree--and I remember the Dawkins dash well. Yes, Dawkins, Kelly, and Curry did not have great games last night--but I think a lot of folks are too quick to assume that they didn't care or weren't trying. People do this especially with Dawkins, because of his history of uneven contributions. If you want him to be the superhero who somehow finds the magic against all odds, playing away against a very fired-up home time that matches up extremely well against Duke--well, okay, maybe Andre isn't that (and maybe Ryan Kelly isn't either). But it's not a reason to throw him under the bus.

I also agree that, while I was happy to see respectable play by the second team, it's not really accurate to suggest that they played OSU even; OSU had a 20-point lead through most of the half and, while they continued to play well, they obviously didn't play with the same urgency that they did in the first half.

Faison1

11-30-2011, 09:22 AM

I watched the game until the last 4 minutes....these late starts are killing me!

I have not scrolled through the entire thread, so pardon me for asking the following questions:

1. Did Ryan Kelly get back into the game after the 16 minute mark in the 2nd half?

2. What in the world was going on with Seth...he was borderline horrendous! I kept wondering why K was not subbing for him.

3. Could the ball have bounced any more favorably for OSU? I mean every rebound, loose ball, errant shot, went their way. It kind of reminded me of the Wisconsin game in Cameron a few years ago. That's the one where we won by 40 or so.

Overall, my expectations were low, so I wasn't overly upset. But boy, did we look boneheaded sometimes. It sucks to get embarrassed, but I feel very confident about our ability to bounce back and improve.

RockyMtDevil

11-30-2011, 09:24 AM

DukeWarhead

11-30-2011, 09:28 AM

They say that a good butt-whippin' builds character. If so, we should now have so much character that it hurts. :eek:

COYS

11-30-2011, 09:38 AM

If memory serves, Michigan St. did something very similar to what Duke accomplished last night. After a very tiring trip to Maui, they returned to play at UNC and got completely humiliated. I also think they rebounded nicely that year and went on to the Final Four. Much like MSU, we are not a great team by a long shot, but we are young, have a lot of upside, have the best freshman in the country and still claim the best coach in the land.

Sometimes its nice to get your butt handed to you, we'll see how this unit responds without the ability to rely on Nolan, Kyle or Kyrie to do their fighting for them. It's time for Kelly, Curry and Dawkins to realize their are no off nights and it's also time to see Quinn Cook get some serious time at the point.

+1, here. This game wasn't bad for lack of effort. OSU was always favored on their home floor. A big win for them was probably more likely than a close win for us. We've got a ways to go as a team, but we can get there. Perimeter D needs a lot of work. Our guards need to work on fighting through screens. We also need to get comfortable in our offense so that we can run it against anyone with consistent ball movement. We had a few flashes of great ball movement last night, mostly from Austin (which is encouraging) and Mason but otherwise we had a lot of standing around and turnovers. Ryan and Seth did not have their best games on either side of the ball. I'm sure they'll remember this and rise to the challenge next time.

cspan37421

11-30-2011, 09:40 AM

When I saw Teddy Valentine prancing around the court (look at me) celebrating some dubious call against Duke, I knew it was not our night.

I did not see Valentine's pregame posturing, and did not know he was the ref before I came in after it just started and was still 0-0, I immediately noticed Ted's portly figure and was filled with dread. "Oh no, that's Ted Valentine," I said to my son, "he hates Duke." Then when I saw Mason get bumped out of bounds and not only no foul called, but a turnover for stepping out, I though ugh. When I saw the replay of Mason getting two down low and being wrestled the whole way up, no call, I thought ugh. When Seth got called for some offensive foul having just brought the ball up; Ryan appeared to be whacked from behind on an early pull-up jumper from just inside the 3 ... I realized it would be a long night. Now, to be fair and not engage in terping, there were a good number of uncalled whacks against Sullinger in that early-game highlight where he made a little shot in the lane. Also, I'm not sure Mason didn't travel on that reverse slam. And Ted V isn't the reason for some early misses from close, from getting way too few 3-point shots for our shooters, for our matador defense.

But several early calls and non-calls do set the tone and they have ripple effects. The guy is this generation's Lenny Wirtz - maybe worse.

ACCBBallFan

11-30-2011, 09:55 AM

PT DU OSU +/- +/min -/min Duke

12.4 32 (29) +3 2.6 (2.3) +0.2 Hairston, F

16.1 31 (30) +1 1.9 (1.9) +0.1 Gbinije, G-F

07.8 15 (14) +1 1.9 (1.8) +0.1 Thornton, G

14.3 35 (38) (3) 2.4 (2.7) (0.2) Cook, G

16.8 23 (31) (8) 1.4 (1.8) (0.5) Mi Plumlee, F

24.5 28 (42) (14) 1.1 (1.7) (0.6) Curry, G

15.4 19 (36) (17) 1.2 (2.3) (1.1) Kelly, F

35.4 52 (74) (22) 1.5 (2.1) (0.6) Ma Plumlee, F

36.4 57 (81) (24) 1.6 (2.2) (0.7) Rivers, G

21.0 23 (50) (27) 1.1 (2.4) (1.3) Dawkins, G

200.0 315 (425) (110) 1.6 (2.1) (0.6)
40.0 63 (85) (22) 1.6 (2.1) (0.6)

PT Duke OSU +/-

8.0 21 21 00 Austin-Mason-Quinn-Josh-Mike

7.3 09 20 (11) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan *4 so played even @ 9-9 after the 0-11 start

5.3 00 00 00 Seth-Austin-Mason-Miles-Mike

3.6 06 04 +2 Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

2.9 10 09 +1 Austin-Mason-Miles-Quinn-Mike

2.4 02 05 (3) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Josh

2.2 00 05 (5) Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler

2.0 09 03 +6 Seth-Austin-Miles-Tyler-Josh

2.0 02 06 (4) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles *2

1.9 02 04 (2) Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Quinn

1.0 00 04 (4) Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles

0.9 00 00 00 Seth-Austin-Ryan-Miles-Quinn

0.6 02 02 00 Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Quinn

0.1 00 02 (2) Austin-Ryan-Miles-Tyler-Quinn

40.0 63 85 (22)

CDu

11-30-2011, 10:05 AM

The good:
- Mason nearly played step-for-step with Sullinger, who is a top-5 pick and likely an All-American this year. If he keeps that up, he'll be there with Henson, Zeller, and Mike Scott for one of the 1st/2nd team ACC spots.
- Rivers (aside from the first few minutes) played his best game. He attacked relentlessly and even occasionally set up others. He didn't back down from the moment.
- Hairston hit a few 18 footers.
- Gbinije gave solid minutes against Buford in the second half.

The bad:
- Curry was completely dominated by Kraft. Kraft played an unbelievable game, but it started with taking Curry completely out of the game offensively. That made a big difference.
- Kelly and Dawkins were nonexistent. I'm more disappointed with Kelly's outing, because he's shown more consistency this year in creating his own shot. Thomas did a great job on him. Dawkins has been more reliant on others to set him up, and as mentioned we weren't able to get much going from the perimeter.
- Perimeter defense (again). Kraft and Buford repeatedly beat our perimeter players off the dribble. This forced help defense from our bigs, which left Thomas wide open several times, and pulled our bigs out of box out position at other times. OSU kept making us pay for that inability to stop the ball.
- Lack of readiness for a hostile environment. OSU and their fans brought it. They did what we often do at Cameron. We didn't seem ready for it. Hopefully that won't happen again.

jipops

11-30-2011, 10:20 AM

Except that you are continuing to overlook the BIGGER hole in your tired legs argument that they haven't played in six days. That's just simply not a realistic answer.

So being fatigued after travelling across multiple timezones after a 3 game tournament then a holiday where for many there is additional travel, is unrealistic??? I understand you disagree but calling it unrealistic is a little dismissive. I do think there is a difference between being on campus and not playing for six days and traveling across the globe and not playing for six days.

jipops

11-30-2011, 10:22 AM

Except that you are continuing to overlook the BIGGER hole in your tired legs argument that they haven't played in six days. That's just simply not a realistic answer.

I guess K is unrealistic as well.

link (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/40536/ohio-state-emphatically-delivers-a-message)

OldPhiKap

11-30-2011, 10:31 AM

1991 -- Carolina crushes us by about 20 in the ACC tourney final. We regroup and win it all.

2010 -- G'town dismantles us in front of the President and the whole wide world in DC, a few weeks before the end of the season. We rebound and win it all.

2011/2 -- tOSU beats us thoroughly in November. Give full credit, they absolutely deserved to win it and did so decisively. Learn, grow, move on.

Bad beats happen. As long as it's not March/April, or to the Heels, it's part of the process of a young team growing.

sagegrouse

11-30-2011, 10:32 AM

jv001

11-30-2011, 10:35 AM

Hairston, Cook and Gbinije played 13, 14, and 16 minutes respectively. They played together the last ten minutes of the game with Mason and Austin also on the court. The other three starters were in the witness protection program.

sagegrouse

Glad I had finished my coffee already. I would hate to have sprayed my wife. Some truth to that statement,lol. GoDuke!

roywhite

11-30-2011, 10:42 AM

I guess K is unrealistic as well.

link (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/40536/ohio-state-emphatically-delivers-a-message)

A pretty basic concept....fatigue or lack of freshness is not just physical...this team was not mentally fresh last night.

Games, travel, emotional wins in Maui, travel, Thanksgiving, travel, going into a hostile environment against a talented, motivated team---the team wasn't up to the challenge.

It happens.

CDu

11-30-2011, 10:42 AM

So being fatigued after travelling across multiple timezones after a 3 game tournament then a holiday where for many there is additional travel, is unrealistic??? I understand you disagree but calling it unrealistic is a little dismissive. I do think there is a difference between being on campus and not playing for six days and traveling across the globe and not playing for six days.

I think being fatigued after traveling across multiple time zones after a 3-game tournament is realistic - for a day or so. That would explain fatigue on Friday, Saturday, and maybe Sunday. It would not explain fatigue on Tuesday night.

Yes, there's a difference between sitting around and not playing for 6 days and traveling across the globe and not playing for 6 days. But I still think it's unrealistic to think that fatigue was STILL a problem as of last night. Maybe after day 3 or 4. Not by day 6. I think that's a convenient excuse.

They didn't look tired to me. They looked overwhelmed.

Wildcat

11-30-2011, 10:50 AM

nmduke2001

11-30-2011, 11:02 AM

I think being fatigued after traveling across multiple time zones after a 3-game tournament is realistic - for a day or so. That would explain fatigue on Friday, Saturday, and maybe Sunday. It would not explain fatigue on Tuesday night.

Yes, there's a difference between sitting around and not playing for 6 days and traveling across the globe and not playing for 6 days. But I still think it's unrealistic to think that fatigue was STILL a problem as of last night. Maybe after day 3 or 4. Not by day 6. I think that's a convenient excuse.

They didn't look tired to me. They looked overwhelmed.

CDu, I think that you are wrong here. I was worried about fatigue to begin with. I was really worried after seeing Michigan's effort against Virginia. UM basically had the same schedule as Duke and they looked tired in the second half against Virginia.

El_Diablo

11-30-2011, 11:05 AM

They didn't look tired to me. They looked overwhelmed.

Tennessee went on the road Monday and lost to Oakland. Michigan went on the road and lost to Virginia. We went on the road and lost to OSU. Coincidences? Perhaps. I know you think it's just a convenient excuse to bring up travel fatigue, but Coach K generally doesn't throw around excuses lightly, and we looked tired to Coach K.

It doesn't mean we weren't overwhelmed. We clearly were. But it's hard to watch that game and not notice how flat we were as a team. It doesn't excuse how we played, but it helps explain why we were so overwhelmed, both mentally and physically. IMO.

1 24 90

11-30-2011, 11:07 AM

ACCBBallFan

11-30-2011, 11:08 AM

For the four biggest swings

PT Duke OSU +/-
3.0 0 9 (9) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan
2.0 9 3 +6 Seth-Austin-Miles-Tyler-Josh
1.0 0 4 (4) Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles
2.2 0 5 (5) Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler

Josh was on floor for +6 and not for any of the deficits

Tyler was +in for the plus and one minus

Miles and Seth were in for the plus and two of the deficits

Austin was involved in all four

Mason and Ryan were in for two minus but not the plus

Dre was involved in all 3 deficits but not the positive.

Duke was scoreless in all three of the worst runs.

Ryan only played the first minute and a half of the second half, Dre the first 4 minutes and Seth did not play the last 8 minutes.

ncexnyc

11-30-2011, 11:18 AM

A tough loss, but one which we all knew was very possible going into the game. I'd like to give the kids credit for bouncing back from the 11-0 deficit. They showed a lot of heart, but it was just one of those nights where the deck was stacked against them.

As I read the game thread while at work, I kept thinking to myself, "Enough already with the constant complaining about the refs." Getting a chance to see the game for myself and watching it somewhat emotionally detached once I got home was quite eye opening. The 2nd foul on Mason was a joke, the block called on Ryan was just as bad, the non-call when Seth got steamrolled, and Kraft taking out Mason's legs all happened during the short time span when OSU blew the game open. The questionable calls, the hot shooting by State, and our poor shooting just snowballed into the disaster we witnessed.

I thought the team was ready to make a nice run in the 2nd half when we cut it to 17, after a few nice stops. However, when Mason's would be steal went right to an OSU player and then Kraft had the self pass off of Miles thigh, well that was par for the course.

Very nice games by Austin and Mason. Ryan, Seth, and Dre were out of it. Not sure why Miles got so much in game hate. He had a couple of nice plays, the give and go with Tyler and the flush set up by Austin.

Looking back I'd say suspect D and lack of leadership hurt us badly last night, both items that were mentioned in the Phase Reports. Let's move on and learn from this experience.

davekay1971

11-30-2011, 11:20 AM

We were truly exposed last night. Nothing surprising, considering our player personnel year in and year out. We seem bent on recruiting finnesse players who are superb at perimeter play; but are challenged with the physical component of the game of basketball. In games like these; we will need strength, quickness, toughness and heart. Our weaknesses are masked by our ability to score from the perimeter and their ability to go on runs. This was not that surprising to me. Big-time players, show up in big-time games. We saw who some of our big-time players are last night. Will these team bounce back; ofcourse they will. They will win their fare share; and will look very sensational at times. But the weaknesses are still there and they will not go away unless we can win some recruiting battles.

I get what you're saying, but I think the facts aren't there to support your post.

1) We have seen our team get beaten by very athletic/physical teams at times, and sometimes the timing stinks (Arizona last year), but on the whole we win more than our fair share of battles, even against very athletic and physical teams. I understand that the type of player K likes to recruit may make us vulnerable to certain types of teams...and the nights when it happens are very frustrating...but the type of player he likes to recruit has also led to a ridiculously successful program for a quarter of a century.

2) This team, like last year's, has plenty of top flight recruits. In recent years we've seen K successful in recruiting battles more often than not. I honestly don't think talent (or losing recruiting battles) is an issue.

3) We have plenty of strength, quickness, toughness and heart in the personnel currently on the roster. Both Miles and Mason have all those qualities, in spades. Singler did for the last four years. I can't think of a Duke roster that was lacking in any of those qualities. There are several reasons we got spanked last night...but lacking players with strength, quickness, toughness, and heart is not one of them.

duke1983

11-30-2011, 11:39 AM

Kfanarmy

11-30-2011, 11:45 AM

interesting article by Seth Davis on SI:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/seth_davis/11/30/duke.ohiost/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a2

not sure how much of the performance was about "weary" players and how much was about playing as a collection of individuals....but he seems to think the performance was indicative of the two teams....

grossbus

11-30-2011, 11:47 AM

"last ten minutes of the game with Mason and Austin also on the court."

and why were they out there, i wonder? Miles had not played badly and could certainly use the run. seemed like an unnecessary risk to me.

Wildcat

11-30-2011, 11:48 AM

We can offset our weaknesses by giving Thornton and Hairston more minutes moving forward. They don't have the offensive firepower that some of the others have; but the intangibles they bring to the court give us a different look as a team. I believe we have to diversify our "look" because teams will hone in on our weaknesses and expose us time and time again. We have to get tougher mentally. When we look that bad; the magnifying glass on our coaching staff is augmented tremendously.

Billy Dat

11-30-2011, 12:06 PM

OSU is a very good team, and we were beat fair and square. It's funny though, whenever Duke plays these "spectacle" games where celebrities (Bill Clinton, Obama, Biden, Lebron, Wade, etc.) are in the crowd they lose! It was an omen when they started by showing Lebron and Wade. After that, you knew it was going to be their night. Superstition aside, OSU was the better team.

I have to give the Ohio State program some serious props for representing last night:
Michael Redd, Evan Turner, Greg Oden, Mike Conley, etc. Credit to Matta for building a hoops powerhouse in football country, and credit the AD for not having Urban Meyer there to take away from the hoops atmosphere.

If you consider Lebron and DWade plus Redd, you had 3 of K's roster from the 2008 gold medal squad. Couldn't you have worn some red, white and blue, fellas, to show some love to your coach? We could have used the good vibes.

We may have gotten smoked, but we still create a big time atmosphere via our very presence better than any other program. It's that kind of electricity that you have to relish as a fan, even if it means we get beat up sometimes. The day that electricity is gone, we'll all feel it and miss it, regardless of whether we win or lose. K is the Tesla coil that creates that charge.

feldspar

11-30-2011, 12:13 PM

In talking to a few D-I reffing buddies of mine, it turns out that the Mason/Craft trip play was indeed a blown call. I got thrown off because rules in high school (which is the majority of what I work) call for that to be a travel. College rules don't consider the player on the floor to be entitled to his spot there.

So, Mike Kitts just completely blew that one. I'm sure he'll be hearing from John Adams, if he already hasn't, on that one.

There's another issue with last night's game I wanted to bring up, and that's the "patient whistle" theory that's starting to really permeate throughout college basketball, and is now trickling down to high school ball. You really saw it in effect last night. Case in point: there was a play in the first half where Mason went up for a shot against Sullinger. Sullinger got his forearm all over Mason's forearm. Mason had to power through the contact to get a shot up, but he did, and scored. No call.

Then, on the other end of the floor, you had Sullinger go up for the same type of shot, similar contact. The ball bounced off the rim. Whistle.

Officials are being taught in D-I camps all across the country about the concept of seeing the whole play through before blowing the whistle. In essence, wait to call a foul until you've seen the whole play and determined if an advantage or disadvantage has occurred. That's why you're seeing contact being called on one end of the court, but not the other. Mason's shot went in, Sullinger's didn't. The whistle wasn't blown in the first, whistle was blown in the second.

That's the concept, for better or worse, at least.

Kedsy

11-30-2011, 12:27 PM

Andre is the easiest to defend, since he is stationary during long stretches. He got one open shot last night from 2 point range and missed.

Actually, I thought Andre stayed "stationary" less than usual. I spent some time just watching him, and he was moving a lot; the guy defending him just stuck with him.

Good tweeners (6-6 -6-9) can get in the lane and get good looks against us, and there isn't much we can do to stop them.

I don't think this is true and I don't think that's what happened. Buford is a big-time scorer, and Thomas seemed to score most of his points when his defender was helping elsewhere. And another thing I noticed was whoever was guarding Sullinger (mostly Ryan in the first half) was understandably reluctant to step up to help. The few times our defender did step up to help on Buford or Kraft, they immediately dumped it down to Sullinger for the easy two. So I would amend your statement to say that when we face teams with 6'6" guards who have the handle to get into the lane and have the best big man in the country down low, there isn't much we can do to stop them. How many teams fit that description?

Was discouraging to see one of the captains, Ryan Kelly, be so ineffective. I don't even think he played but a few minutes in the second half.

For much of the first half, it was Ryan (not Mason) guarding Sullinger. Guarding someone 50 pounds heavier than you can be exhausting, especially a talent like Sullinger who knows how to use his big body. It's no wonder Ryan didn't have enough energy to excel on offense against a smaller, quicker defender. So I think "ineffective" is not entirely fair.

Did Ryan Kelly get back into the game after the 16 minute mark in the 2nd half?

Ryan subbed out at the 18:31 mark of the 2nd half and never came back in.

It's time for Kelly, Curry and Dawkins to realize their are no off nights and it's also time to see Quinn Cook get some serious time at the point.

In my mind I don't think this game was an example of Seth, Andre, and Ryan not playing well as much as it was Ohio State's defense playing them perfectly. I certainly don't think they "took the night off." To my eyes, all three played hard while they were in.

I also don't think we were exposed for our lack of athleticism. I doubt there are too many teams who can play defense the way Ohio State did last night. Maybe not even Ohio State, on a consistent basis. Seth, Andre, and Ryan will get theirs against most teams.

And did you really think Quinn Cook played so much better than Seth that he deserves to take over? I didn't. I thought he looked a little lost.

Wheat/"/"/"

11-30-2011, 12:35 PM

Wheat/"/"/"

11-30-2011, 12:40 PM

That's the concept, for better or worse, at least.

Thanks for that explanation.

I'd argue that is a terrible concept. A foul, is a foul, is a foul. Call the damn fouls.

The beauty of basketball is the athleticism those players have. It's not a wrestling match. Call the fouls and let the game open up. Players will adjust, or sit.

Big Pappa

11-30-2011, 12:41 PM

And did you really think Quinn Cook played so much better than Seth that he deserves to take over? I didn't. I thought he looked a little lost.

Good points all around Kedsy, but while I agree Quinn looked lost it seemed like Seth looked fairly lost as well. I've heard people talk about how it was Seth's first big test against a big-time opponent, but I completely disagree with that. He has played in (and played well in) plenty of big-time games against big-time opponents throughout his career.

To me it looked like we had been scouted really well (maybe a little by our good buddy Greg in the film room) and that they simply have more experienced talent. A huge bright spot for me was watching Mason. I know he could have played better at points and made some better decisions, but he didn't look intimidated one time. When we got down 11-0 he demanded the ball on the block and went over Sully for a big 2 that quieted an otherwise raucous crowd. Mason looked confident and looked like a guy who can control the paint against most big-men in the country. Something that is easy to forget in all this is that Sully is the best post-player in college basketball, and Mason didn't back down once.

gus

11-30-2011, 12:48 PM

Thanks for that explanation.

I'd argue that is a terrible concept. A foul, is a foul, is a foul. Call the damn fouls.

The beauty of basketball is the athleticism those players have. It's not a wrestling match. Call the fouls and let the game open up. Players will adjust, or sit.

I agree -- seems like it's taking away a major deterrent to fouling poor free throw shooters.

Kedsy

11-30-2011, 12:48 PM

The rebounding edge was big to OSU, (32-23), and that had Duke reacting without time to set up the defense much of the time.

According to the official box score, they outrebounded us 33 to 27. So, not quite as big a deficit as you thought. I agree with your points about Ohio State's defense and Duke having to react quickly, though.

Good points all around Kedsy, but while I agree Quinn looked lost it seemed like Seth looked fairly lost as well.

I agree Seth also looked lost. Hopefully there aren't too many defenders like Kraft out there who can disrupt his game like that.

OldPhiKap

11-30-2011, 12:58 PM

According to the official box score, they outrebounded us 33 to 27. So, not quite as big a deficit as you thought. I agree with your points about Ohio State's defense and Duke having to react quickly, thought.

Part of the reason we had fewer rebounds is because tOSU shot such a high percentage. Can't rebound a made shot.

NSDukeFan

11-30-2011, 12:59 PM

I saw this game a little differently from most of you guy's perspective, big shock, Huh?

It was the best game I've seen from Mason yet. He was doing all the things I think Duke will need him to do to get better, but he's gonna have to have some help.

Carrying on the debate from the big man perception thread, I was counting post entry offense last night.
This was the definition I was using...
...the, "I'm holding this spot, give me the ball, I'm gonna turn on you, put a move on you, and score or you're gonna foul me"... plays from them.

I counted 12 times that OSU had to deal with Mason by that definition in the paint. Kelly had 0 attempts, and Miles had 0.

Mason shot 7-12 and drew, I think, 4 fouls. That's a good strong offensive performance from him and my argument has been he needs help and Duke must add more focus in the paint. At least in that game, I think the point was proven.

That's about where I thought the good ended from Duke last night.

Rivers dominated the ball on offense to the point that team play broke down. Sure we know he can take his man off the dribble anytime he wants, but that's not enough. It's a team game. He has to get others involved and pick his spots better. His teammates were standing around watching him dribble/drive all night. There was no flow on offense, and I think it affected Curry, Dawkins and Kelly's game negatively.

Defensively, OSU just put too much balanced pressure on Duke. The rebounding edge was big to OSU, (32-23), and that had Duke reacting without time to set up the defense much of the time.

Craft was sneaky good all over the floor and Sullinger is strong and fundamentally sound out there. OSU played really well and deserved the win in that one.

It's not a terrible loss. It's way early, but it's one that should show the team where they have to improve to challenge for a championship.

I agree that Mason played well last night. I thought the team did a good job getting the ball to him inside last night, as they have in most other games, so far. I guess when Austin drove and dished to Miles for Miles' dunk that was considered a post move, by you, but I was quite happy with it. I thought Duke did a fine job getting the ball inside and I don't think getting it inside more is an issue that I was at all worried about last night, or will be going forward. This is assuming Mason continues to get the ball and contribute inside scoring and touches and Ryan and Miles get some inside touches as well. I don't feel the need for the players to meet your specific criteria so many times for Duke to have a solid inside game, just as Zeller would rather catch the ball in the lane with an advantage to score rather than get a catch on the block and use a post move.

I also agree that Rivers dominated the ball more than would be ideal for Duke's offense. I think that was more due to OSU's good perimeter pressure and denial that made Duke's typical ball movement more difficult. This will be an area for improvement in the future against tough defensive teams. That's where those good screen setting bigs come into play. ;) With ball movement more difficult, I think Rivers saw that his dribble penetration was one of the best offensive options for Duke last night, unfortunately.

I hope this game proves to be a valuable lesson to the team as they continue to get better after an extremely impressive start to the season.

MChambers

11-30-2011, 01:19 PM

Thanks for that explanation.

I'd argue that is a terrible concept. A foul, is a foul, is a foul. Call the damn fouls.

The beauty of basketball is the athleticism those players have. It's not a wrestling match. Call the fouls and let the game open up. Players will adjust, or sit.
Gotta agree with this. Does this mean no more old-fashioned three point plays?

gumbomoop

11-30-2011, 01:22 PM

Hopefully there aren't too many defenders like Kraft out there who can disrupt his game like that.

I expect to see Jordan Taylor on Marshall tonight, but don't know enough about Taylor's rep on D.

I have seen Craft enough now [several games last year, and last night] to think he's a superb defender, on-ball, doubling, quick hands. His feet and hands are exceptionally active. He's a model defender. For my [non-existent] money, the model. If other posters know of a better perimeter defender, name him, and I'll try to catch one of his games.

Recall K's famous comment: "Watch Shane; just watch Shane." I'm not quite ready to equate Craft's defense with Shane's, but if you can stand it, check out a few OSU games and "just watch Craft."

oldnavy

11-30-2011, 01:30 PM

I agree that Mason played well last night. I thought the team did a good job getting the ball to him inside last night, as they have in most other games, so far. I guess when Austin drove and dished to Miles for Miles' dunk that was considered a post move, by you, but I was quite happy with it. I thought Duke did a fine job getting the ball inside and I don't think getting it inside more is an issue that I was at all worried about last night, or will be going forward. This is assuming Mason continues to get the ball and contribute inside scoring and touches and Ryan and Miles get some inside touches as well. I don't feel the need for the players to meet your specific criteria so many times for Duke to have a solid inside game, just as Zeller would rather catch the ball in the lane with an advantage to score rather than get a catch on the block and use a post move.

I also agree that Rivers dominated the ball more than would be ideal for Duke's offense. I think that was more due to OSU's good perimeter pressure and denial that made Duke's typical ball movement more difficult. This will be an area for improvement in the future against tough defensive teams. That's where those good screen setting bigs come into play. ;) With ball movement more difficult, I think Rivers saw that his dribble penetration was one of the best offensive options for Duke last night, unfortunately. I hope this game proves to be a valuable lesson to the team as they continue to get better after an extremely impressive start to the season.

I agree. I think that it wasn't as much that Austin "hogged" the ball as it was the other players with the exception of Mason, were just not getting open for whatever reason. Having said that, I do believe that Austin needs to continue to improve his decision making in the paint.

I have to admit, I was not sold on AR earlier on. I think that he still needs to grow as a team player, but he has game and is improving quickly IMO. I think that I am going to end up liking him before it is all said and done.

OSU would have beaten any team in the country last night. Should we have played better? Absolutely, but it is no shame to lose to that team playing that well on their home court.

I saw nothing last night that discourages me at this point in the season. In fact we have done better overall than I thought we would. Maybe we got a little too cocky coming out of Maui?? Last night and a few pointed coaching "remarks" by Coach K and staff should take care of any problem along those lines.

feldspar

11-30-2011, 01:33 PM

Gotta agree with this. Does this mean no more old-fashioned three point plays?

Well, not "no more," but probably fewer.

I should have added a caveat that this doesn't apply to all plays. I mean, if you have some contact that forces a player to the ground, or is just outright obvious physical contact that's outside the rules, I'm sure there's going to be a call. But the reality is that coaches want fewer fouls called*, so that's the direction the game is going.

*Of course the ironic thing about that is that they want fewer fouls called on their players, but when they feel like their player gets fouled, they want the foul called. You can't win for losing...

UrinalCake

11-30-2011, 01:35 PM

Bad beats happen. As long as it's not March/April, or to the Heels, it's part of the process of a young team growing.

We've had some pretty spectacular losses over the last few years. If memory serves correctly, ASU and St. John's last season, Georgetown and NC State the season before, Clemson and Villanova the year before that. All of these were games where we just seemed totally out of it and our opponent did everything right. Hopefully if we have another one this year it will be during the season and not in March. Though this OSU loss is the only one where I'd say our opponent was outright more talented than us.

hurley1

11-30-2011, 01:37 PM

Craft looks like the second coming of hurley..........he killed us.....he was the difference in the game.....mason played great and miles did pretty good too.........mason proved he is as good as anybody out there.......curry, kelly, and dawkins never got off of the bus and that is what beat us.........rivers , i hope, learned that this is not high school ball, one man can't do much on his own........everything osu threw up went in the basket.........everything bounced their way.........it was one of those nights......nothing to fret about, we can fix all that broke down and we will............nothing like a good taste of humble pie every now and then.........we will be fine..........

roywhite

11-30-2011, 01:39 PM

Coach K comments from his radio interview show with Bob Harris on 11/30, with the audio linked by goduke.com

Not a tough loss, a disappointing loss... (http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?catid=1002&id=817597)

oldnavy

11-30-2011, 01:39 PM

Well, not "no more," but probably fewer.

I should have added a caveat that this doesn't apply to all plays. I mean, if you have some contact that forces a player to the ground, or is just outright obvious physical contact that's outside the rules, I'm sure there's going to be a call. But the reality is that coaches want fewer fouls called*, so that's the direction the game is going.

*Of course the ironic thing about that is that they want fewer fouls called on their players, but when they feel like their player gets fouled, they want the foul called. You can't win for losing...

The "old" OLDNAVY would have been apoplectic last night with some of the calls/no calls. But, I am still relaxed from the Maui trip (maybe the players are as well!)

Three plays stand out, the first was the one you guys mentioned when Mason got hacked across the arms, the second was when Mason got bumped out of bounds with no call, and the third was the tackle/travel call on Mason. But you know what? It's all good, there are going to be those nights, and what I really liked was Mason didn't blink and eye on any three of those plays... he just went back down the court and played through.

I REALLY like what I am seeing from Mason this year... I think we are going to be a tough out come March...

Indoor66

11-30-2011, 01:51 PM

THE FUTURE

11-30-2011, 02:20 PM

I think cook should start with seth and rivers on the wing.....cook's ball handling, driving and passing is better than tt and seth...seth is better off the ball....dawkins 6th man...MG and Josh hairston need more mins....would like to see alex but now hes redshirting?...thats what i took from this game....mason has arrived...miles is miles...kelly had a bad matchup...TT should only see mins for defense and energy only...IMO

FellowTraveler

11-30-2011, 02:22 PM

Officials are being taught in D-I camps all across the country about the concept of seeing the whole play through before blowing the whistle. In essence, wait to call a foul until you've seen the whole play and determined if an advantage or disadvantage has occurred. That's why you're seeing contact being called on one end of the court, but not the other. Mason's shot went in, Sullinger's didn't. The whistle wasn't blown in the first, whistle was blown in the second.

That's the concept, for better or worse, at least.

I strongly dislike this approach. A foul should be a foul regardless of whether the ball goes in the basket. Whether the basket is scored is a poor proxy for whether advantage is obtained. And this approach creates a situation in which a player can do exactly the same thing on consecutive trips down the court and be called for a foul once and not called the other time -- or in which Player A gets called for a foul for doing exactly what Player B just did to him on the other end, with no foul called. That makes the game frustrating to watch and, I'd imagine, difficult for the players to understand how the game is being called and adapt accordingly. Late whistles never fail to irritate me; I find them far more bothersome than most blown calls.

oldnavy

11-30-2011, 02:23 PM

To me, it was just one of those nights. They were better than we were last night.

In the long run, we will learn a great deal from this loss and will be a better team for it. None of us expected to be undefeated this year. I doubt that most of us, really, thought we would be 7-1 at this point after we first saw the schedule released earlier.

I never like to lose and am not of the school of thought that a loss is a good thing. That said, I know that in my experience, I have always learned more from the losses than from the victories. As a wise man once told me, you never grow if you stay in your comfort zone. Our boys were out of their comfort zone last night and I believe they will grow from it.

They and K will make this a better team from the experience.

A loss (or any other adversity) is only a good thing if you grow from it and become better and that has everything to do with attitude. I agree, that losing in and of itself isn't "good", but if you look at it through a "count it all as blessings" mindset then it well may turn out to be a very good thing.

I have also heard that you learn more in the valley than you do on the mountain top as well.... same sort of thing as the comfort zone quote...

It was one of those nights where you just have to sit back and "take your whooping, son!" as my daddy used to love to say...

devildeac

11-30-2011, 02:37 PM

Gotta agree with this. Does this mean no more old-fashioned three point plays?

Not only that, it means 2 fouls Sullinger did not pick up (considering his bump to Mason that caused a walk or OOB call in the 1st half). Probably would have lost by 15-20 instead if he sits for a while. Doesn't change your point or the outcome, but gotta scratch my head why Mason didn't have a chance for the 3 point play but Sullinger goes to the line shooting 2. Agreeing with Wheat (can't believe I typed that-lol) that a foul is a foul is a foul.

Wheat/"/"/"

11-30-2011, 02:48 PM

nocilla

11-30-2011, 02:53 PM

It was the best game I've seen from Mason yet. He was doing all the things I think Duke will need him to do to get better...

I just wanted to point out that Duke finally satisfied your requirements of a quality post player and they lost by 22 points. :cool:

Wheat/"/"/"

11-30-2011, 02:55 PM

I just wanted to point out that Duke finally satisfied your requirements of a quality post player and they lost by 23 points. :cool:

That's a good point :)

LSanders

11-30-2011, 02:57 PM

roywhite

11-30-2011, 03:08 PM

Not trying to make excuses, 'cause our guys don't need it. But, there's a HUGE difference in OSU's schedule and ours.

Given the current standings, Duke is THE marque game for OSU all season long. Other than Florida coming in two weeks ago, their schedule includes:

- Wright State
- Jackson State
- North Florida
- VMI
- Valpariso

Not exactly Sweet Sixteen match-ups ... And, ALL have been home games. OSU doesn't leave Columbus for the first time another week and a half.

Meanwhile, our guys have put on more miles than a United flight crew and played the current #2 RPI schedule.

This game reminded me of the Georgetown game a couple of years ago when we went to D.C. It was G-Town's only national TV game of the season, and the President was in the crowd. They were sky-high because they only had to get up for that one game. Our guys had come off a punishing stretch with a veteran team and still came out flat. But, as I recall, that season turned out OK.

If we meet again in March, our guys will be salivating.

Well, I generally agree. We caught tOSU playing very well in front of a special event type crowd, and they caught us a little off our game.
By all means, we could play them better if we meet again.

One thing I will say that sticks with me about tOSU from this game:
If they can continue to play defense on this level, they will be a hard team to beat.
The shooting can come and go, but they played good defense on the perimeter and inside.
That's very valuable.

elvis14

11-30-2011, 03:13 PM

There are a few posts on there talking about how Austin had the ball a bit too much last night. What I saw was that the Duke coaching staff clearly changed the offense for a while to put the ball in Austin's hands and have him drive. OSU was defending the 3 very well and our other players were really struggling so I thought this was a good decision. Let's not confuse purposely clearing out with "standing around watching Austin dribble". He got some points and assists and he made some mistakes. But don't fault Austin for holding on to the ball too much, I think he was doing exactly what Koach asked him to do. I also think that Austin's decision making has improved and will continue to improve so that when needed, this offensive strategy will be a great thing to fall back on.

dukeinal

11-30-2011, 03:23 PM

I have no desire to go back and watch this but it seemed that in the first half we were playing off the wings and then chasing the player around the screen and Craft was delivering the ball to the cutter in good position. On the other hand in the second half Hairston and SG were bodying up on the wings and not allowing them to get to the screens.

Our wiings were using the screens mainly to work for the 3 point shot allowing the OSU defenders to chase us through the screen and not allow us the 3 point opportunities.

I thought Dawkins and Kelley were active enough off the ball but often when they did get a window off the screen the ball handler was looking at the other side of the court and did not deliver the ball often enough when we managed to get open.

just 2 cents from another fan...

hq2

11-30-2011, 03:42 PM

chadlee989

11-30-2011, 03:54 PM

Precisely. The real answer is that neither Andre nor Seth could get open. That's why he had to drive; he had no choice. And, I think he showed that,
with time, the drive and dish will be part of his repertoire. He's working on it.

I agree but i think in the first half it might have been coming from K as well. If I remember correctly they were putting Sully in a pick and roll situation a lot and i think on purpose trying to draw fouls on him. Thats just the way it looked to me.

NYBri

11-30-2011, 03:58 PM

There's no way we are going to beat OSU by pounding the ball inside trip after trip. Can't be done. They were happy we tried.

Wheat/"/"/"

11-30-2011, 04:16 PM

There's no way we are going to beat OSU by pounding the ball inside trip after trip. Can't be done. They were happy we tried.

The point of having a stronger inside game is to open the floor to Duke's strength, which is shooting it.

OSU took the outside shot away last night, which is probably why Mason was more active in the post than past games, and Austin had extra room to dribble drive. Mason just didn't get any help from the other PF/C teammate inside, and they didn't look for anyone else but him...

I'm not advocating that Duke become an inside power team. They just need more balance or teams will key on the shooters and never leave them, like last night.

gwlaw99

11-30-2011, 04:23 PM

I agree but i think in the first half it might have been coming from K as well. If I remember correctly they were putting Sully in a pick and roll situation a lot and i think on purpose trying to draw fouls on him. Thats just the way it looked to me.

It was a good strategy. Coach K just didn't count on the refs using Big East fouling rules.

rsvman

11-30-2011, 04:31 PM

We've had some pretty spectacular losses over the last few years. If memory serves correctly, ASU and St. John's last season, Georgetown and NC State the season before, Clemson and Villanova the year before that. All of these were games where we just seemed totally out of it and our opponent did everything right. Hopefully if we have another one this year it will be during the season and not in March. Though this OSU loss is the only one where I'd say our opponent was outright more talented than us.

+1.

You know what's great about being a Duke fan, though? The fact that you can remember and name each of those games. Those are the games in which we got slaughtered. Pretty much EVERY game BESIDES these games, which you can remember one by one, we either won or else we competed well. In other words, we ALMOST ALWAYS win or compete very well.

Fans of other programs can't name the bad losses like we can, because they've had a boatload of them. We have a handful. Be grateful for whatcha got. :cool:

oldnavy

11-30-2011, 05:52 PM

It was a good strategy. Coach K just didn't count on the refs using Big East fouling rules.

I agree that there were several "questionable calls", and these may have helped set a bad tone for us early, but I personally have a hard time blaming the refs for a 21 point loss... we just were not ready to play at the level OSU brought the game to us. Many theories as to why, but I don't think it was the refs.

Indoor66

11-30-2011, 06:34 PM

I agree that there were several "questionable calls", and these may have helped set a bad tone for us early, but I personally have a hard time blaming the refs for a 21 point loss... we just were not ready to play at the level OSU brought the game to us. Many theories as to why, but I don't think it was the refs.

Clearly the refs did not cause the outcome. The call that really blew me away was Mason's 2nd foul. He guarded Sullinger with verticle position, hands straight up and Sullinger jumping into him. Mason got the foul - to me a terrible call.

mkline09

11-30-2011, 06:46 PM

Clearly the refs did not cause the outcome. The call that really blew me away was Mason's 2nd foul. He guarded Sullinger with verticle position, hands straight up and Sullinger jumping into him. Mason got the foul - to me a terrible call.

I rather enjoyed the chop block on Mason Plumlee that forced the "travel."

Saw a tweet from Nolan Smith that basically said that Valentine "hated Duke" and it was a "macho" thing for him to challenge Krzyzewski.

Now I don't think that the officiating caused Duke to lose, thought like said above it did affect the tone of the game. OSU actually got whistled for one more foul on the game than Duke.

JayZee

11-30-2011, 06:47 PM

Clearly the refs did not cause the outcome. The call that really blew me away was Mason's 2nd foul. He guarded Sullinger with verticle position, hands straight up and Sullinger jumping into him. Mason got the foul - to me a terrible call.

He may have held a verticle position, but his arms were not vertical. Sorry, had to do it.

In the replay, it clearly showed that Mason extended his arms forward. That almost always gets called. Mason has made massive improvement in reducing his fouling, but that one, in my mind, is hard to dispute.

gwlaw99

11-30-2011, 07:07 PM

I agree that there were several "questionable calls", and these may have helped set a bad tone for us early, but I personally have a hard time blaming the refs for a 21 point loss... we just were not ready to play at the level OSU brought the game to us. Many theories as to why, but I don't think it was the refs.

You misunderstand me. I am simply commenting on the strategy of trying to get Sullinger in foul trouble. The refs didn't call many fouls on either side which negates that strategy.

UrinalCake

11-30-2011, 08:03 PM

You know what's great about being a Duke fan, though? The fact that you can remember and name each of those games.

Excellent point. It's a pretty big deal every time we lose, and that's saying something. Because I'm such a glutton for punishment, I went back and looked at the scores from those losses and at least in terms of final score only the Villanova game (77-55) and Clemson (74-47) were as bad as this OSU loss. That Clemson game was probably the only time I've ever seen Duke just flat out give up. The other losses - NC State (88-74), Georgetown (89-77), St. John's (93-78), and Arizona (93-77) - don't look quite so bad on paper. There was also a 14-point loss to Wisconsin in 2009-2010 that I forgot about. All of these were true road games except the tourney losses to Nova (in Boston) and Zona (in Anaheim).

roywhite

11-30-2011, 08:56 PM

I rather enjoyed the chop block on Mason Plumlee that forced the "travel."

Saw a tweet from Nolan Smith that basically said that Valentine "hated Duke" and it was a "macho" thing for him to challenge Krzyzewski.

Now I don't think that the officiating caused Duke to lose, thought like said above it did affect the tone of the game. OSU actually got whistled for one more foul on the game than Duke.

yeah, I checked out Nolan's twitter page and he said:
"Ted Valentine hates Duke... As a ref, he circles the Duke games, it's him vs Coach K... I remember him! Lol!!! It's a macho thing with him!"

Many of the comments were light-hearted and going back and forth with fans, but IMO it's pretty significant if Nolan feels that way about Valentine and is willing to say it. Nolan is an honest guy who will speak his mind.
I said earlier that Valentine appeared to be celebrating a dubious call he had against Duke and others had similar observations.

Uh, Mr. Valentine....you have some trouble being professional when you're working a Duke game??

dcar1985

11-30-2011, 09:08 PM

Yea he also retweeted a tweet from Callie Rivers (Austin's sister) who said that Valentine wouldn't even shake coach K's hand before the game.

OldPhiKap

11-30-2011, 09:44 PM

Teddy Valentine. With a name like that, don't you just want to give him a hug?

throatybeard

11-30-2011, 11:09 PM

Paulus sold Duke out for some tats and autographs is what I heard. :)

Thirty blobs of ink.

mkline09

11-30-2011, 11:22 PM

yeah, I checked out Nolan's twitter page and he said:
"Ted Valentine hates Duke... As a ref, he circles the Duke games, it's him vs Coach K... I remember him! Lol!!! It's a macho thing with him!"

Many of the comments were light-hearted and going back and forth with fans, but IMO it's pretty significant if Nolan feels that way about Valentine and is willing to say it. Nolan is an honest guy who will speak his mind.
I said earlier that Valentine appeared to be celebrating a dubious call he had against Duke and others had similar observations.

Uh, Mr. Valentine....you have some trouble being professional when you're working a Duke game??

Yeah I'd trust a player's insights since he lived it for four years. Pretty telling.

uh_no

11-30-2011, 11:29 PM

Yeah I'd trust a player's insights since he lived it for four years. Pretty telling.

I wouldn't be suprised that the other teams also thought that TV ted was against them.....its just that we get him sooo often because we're on tv a lot, and, well, he's TV ted!

hurley1

12-01-2011, 02:07 AM

If we have to play them again in March, I am more concerned about that guard than I am Sullinger. Mason, with a supporting cast doing their job, can do alot with Sullinger. He will need some help in certain situations, but, he's the best out there to be guarding Sullinger, i think. I don't know the answer to Craft. He so reminds me of Hurley. Boy, he's good.

Devilsfan

12-01-2011, 04:13 PM

A key would be your words "with a supporting cast". Who then stays with Buford? And then how do we stop Craft? That's up for the coaching staff to figure out. At any rate this is one heck of a team even if we were rested.

oldnavy

12-01-2011, 04:39 PM

A key would be your words "with a supporting cast". Who then stays with Buford? Anyhow do we stop Craft? This is one heck of a team even if we are rested.

They are a really good team, but so are we. We caught them on a night where they played about as well as they can IMO, and we played about as bad as we are going to play (again IMO).

Call me nuts, but barring injury, I like our team better than theirs come March.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

12-01-2011, 04:45 PM

Call me nuts, but barring injury, I like our team better than theirs come March.

This, absolutely. Our team has talent and is young. The learning curve will be steep, but I think we've got the horses to run with anyone once our guys all get on the same page and Coach K tweaks the system.

I'll do you one better, oldnavy - not only do I like our team better come March, I would relish the opportunity to play OSU again. Sullinger looked a little bit too self-satisfied at points, and I'd love to have the chance to teach him what Duke basketball is all about.

jaytoc

12-01-2011, 05:41 PM

Well, that's the great thing about being a true fan, MD.

You couldn't make this up - Sullinger was a big part of a team that just put a twenty-plus point whuppin' on the Devils. Some might think that he knows something about what Duke Basketball is really about. I guess they'd be wrong, right?

JMarley50

12-01-2011, 05:44 PM

I had to take a little while and let this one simmer before throwing my invaluable $.02 out there. I browsed through the thread but didn't read everything so I apologize if I repeat stuff that has already been beaten to death. It seems as if most of us are on the same page with this one. I think one of the articles on the front page best sums up my thoughts, don't get too high and don't get too low. I don't think OSU is as good as they were against us nor do I think we are as bad as we played. With that said here are a few of the things that jumped out at me:

-Mason showed that he is for real and he did it against the best big guy in college basketball. I am impressed! (That was two games in a row against quality opponents for those who were keeping score)

-Austin is getting better every game. He is going to be really tough to guard moving forward. It looks like his outside shot is coming around as is his defense. But he still has a ways to go in both categories. I just hope the rest of the team stays involved and don't get caught Austin watching. I don't care how many eye popping moves he has on his way to 20+ points each night, if everyone else isn't involved we will not be successful.

-TV Teddy... enough said.

-This could be a stretch, but it seemed to me like Thad used our "get the ball inside approach" against us. OSU didn't really deny the entry pass and didn't double down once the ball got inside. They also did a very good job denying the kick out. It was almost as if he was taking a "make Mason beat us 2 pts at a time" approach. Normally when we start having some success inside, it opens up the outside shot. But not this time. I can't help but wonder why we didn't use the same strategy with Sullinger. But I guess we didn't really expect them to make everything they threw up. Or maybe that was the idea, and we just failed miserably at executing.

-As has already been said...the effort was terrible. Tired legs is no excuse for bad effort. Its ok to be a step slow due to tired legs as long as you are still busting your rear, but I didn't see that.

-MG impressed me! I think K was trying to send a message to Dre and hopefully it worked. If not, Silent G showed he is up to the challenge and should get the minutes.

-It was nice seeing Quinn get some valuable minutes as well. I thought he handled the pressure fairly well and I have a feeling we will be seeing more of him in the future.

Once again this is just a few of the things that caught my attention. Hopefully I'm not beating a dead horse too bad. I don't think this loss is the end of the world. Its still early. I expected it to be a tough game and possibly a loss, I just didn't expect it to be that bad. Hopefully the guys will learn and get better. This is still a very good team!

Kedsy

12-01-2011, 05:44 PM

Sullinger was a big part of a team that just put a twenty-plus point whuppin' on the Devils. Some might think that he knows something about what Duke Basketball is really about.

Your logic escapes me.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

12-01-2011, 05:53 PM

Some might think that he knows something about what Duke Basketball is really about. I guess they'd be wrong, right?

Are you suggesting I'm a Duke homer? Damn right I am. That's what this board is for - possibly unwarranted optimism about my favorite team. And yes, it's true - I would love a chance to play OSU after our freshmen have another three months of experience, our defense is more cohesive, our leaders have emerged, and identities have been established. In fact, I'd wager good money that we could play them anywhere in the country - their home floor included - and not have a repeat of what happened on Tuesday.

I stand by my original statement, I would relish the chance to play them again, atone for our loss, and teach Sullinger what Duke basketball is all about.

DukeCrow

12-01-2011, 05:58 PM

I wouldn't be suprised that the other teams also thought that TV ted was against them.....its just that we get him sooo often because we're on tv a lot, and, well, he's TV ted!

Did you catch this move from TV Ted last night?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ4WZVFVcqg

oldnavy

12-01-2011, 06:01 PM

Your logic escapes me.

Best I can tell, he is saying Mountain Devil is blinded by his Duke Blue glasses, and that Sullinger did experience Duke Basketball on Tuesday night and took us to the woodshed and therefore knows all about Duke Basketball. Problem with that is A), I think MD is spot on with his assessment because he agreed with me! :p and B) I think that anyone who has followed Duke for anytime knows that Duke Basketball was not represented at it's best on Tuesday night.

Kedsy

12-01-2011, 06:13 PM

Best I can tell, he is saying Mountain Devil is blinded by his Duke Blue glasses, and that Sullinger did experience Duke Basketball on Tuesday night and took us to the woodshed and therefore knows all about Duke Basketball. Problem with that is A), I think MD is spot on with his assessment because he agreed with me! :p and B) I think that anyone who has followed Duke for anytime knows that Duke Basketball was not represented at it's best on Tuesday night.

Yeah, I understood what he was saying. I just don't think it logically follows that beating a team on an off-night equates to knowing "what Duke Basketball is really about." In addition to not following logically, I found his comment snarky and offensive. But that's just me so I only questioned his logic and not the other stuff.

Kedsy

12-01-2011, 06:17 PM

I think K was trying to send a message to Dre and hopefully it worked. If not, Silent G showed he is up to the challenge and should get the minutes.

Andre played 4 second half minutes. Ryan played 1. Seth played 9, and Tyler didn't play at all in the second half. Was K "trying to send a message" to all four players? Maybe. Should all four be in danger of losing their roles? I don't think so. I'm not sure why people think Andre is on thin ice any more than the other three.

jaytoc

12-01-2011, 07:21 PM

Yeah, I understood what he was saying. I just don't think it logically follows that beating a team on an off-night equates to knowing "what Duke Basketball is really about." In addition to not following logically, I found his comment snarky and offensive. But that's just me so I only questioned his logic and not the other stuff.

Sorry I offended you; I intended no offense.

We didn't just get beaten on an off night, we were thrashed in every aspect of the game by a team that, on that night, was clearly superior. Sure, say we had an off night and we'll get you next time; we can do better; we were tired and on the road; that our performance doesn't fairly represent this team's level of play. But the bravado and bluster of asserting that next time we're going to teach Mr. Sullinger "what Duke basketball is all about" struck me as kind of silly in the wake of that defeat.

OldPhiKap

12-01-2011, 07:40 PM

One point that has gotten passing mention but deserves some more I think. It was not just that Duke had an "off night" or even that tOSU had an "on night". They game-planned us very well and took our guards (with the exception of Austin) out of the game. Greg Paulus, who does the video scouting, etc., I suspect had a big role in that.

Which is fine with me. I hope he progresses in coaching if that is what is calling to him.

But, Greg buddy, just don't do it to us in a tourney, okay?

;>)

sagegrouse

12-01-2011, 08:05 PM

Sorry I offended you; I intended no offense.

We didn't just get beaten on an off night, we were thrashed in every aspect of the game by a team that, on that night, was clearly superior. Sure, say we had an off night and we'll get you next time; we can do better; we were tired and on the road; that our performance doesn't fairly represent this team's level of play. But the bravado and bluster of asserting that next time we're going to teach Mr. Sullinger "what Duke basketball is all about" struck me as kind of silly in the wake of that defeat.

Didn't get beaten on an off-night? Silly to show Mr. Sullinger a lesson? Maybe in a normal universe, but out here in Hilbert space, Euclidean rules don't apply. I thought we did a decent job on Sullinger -- thanks to Mason and Miles. The other Buckeyes, esp. the three-point shooters, had career nights. Would I like to play them again? You bet!!! Go Duke! Bring 'em on!

sagegrouse

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

12-01-2011, 09:15 PM

We didn't just get beaten on an off night, we were thrashed in every aspect of the game by a team that, on that night, was clearly superior. Sure, say we had an off night and we'll get you next time; we can do better; we were tired and on the road; that our performance doesn't fairly represent this team's level of play. But the bravado and bluster of asserting that next time we're going to teach Mr. Sullinger "what Duke basketball is all about" struck me as kind of silly in the wake of that defeat.

Of course it's ludicrous. Of course it's bravado and bluster. I'm sorry, this is a Duke message board. Do you want me to say "gee, I hope we never play them again! They are so much better than us, we'd never have a chance..."

Sorry, I've only been following Duke basketball for about thirty years. When Duke lost to UNLV in 1990 and got completely dismantled, didn't it make it that much more satisfying in 1991? We were supposed to be an appetizer for UNLV's championship game. Duke was the team that couldn't win the big game and was outmanned at every position. There was articles in the newspaper about how many NBA teams UNLV could beat. Do you think Coach K was hoping UNLV would falter before the Final Four so we wouldn't have to play them again?

Yes, I expect Duke to play better than they did Tuesday in every other game for the rest of the year. Yes, I would love to play OSU in the Final Four. And yes, I believe that we would have a damned good chance to beat them after four more months of prep and coaching. And, I think that Tuesday's loss would only make it more satisfying. I relish the idea, and I think that not being afraid of an opponent is a BIG component of what "Duke basketball is all about."

Kedsy

12-01-2011, 09:19 PM

Sorry I offended you; I intended no offense.

OK, I hear you. You were reacting to a comment you thought was uncalled for. We all do that from time to time. Sorry I came down so hard on you.

JMarley50

12-02-2011, 11:21 AM

Andre played 4 second half minutes. Ryan played 1. Seth played 9, and Tyler didn't play at all in the second half. Was K "trying to send a message" to all four players? Maybe. Should all four be in danger of losing their roles? I don't think so. I'm not sure why people think Andre is on thin ice any more than the other three.

I can't speak for the others but I guess my logic is this:

-One could argue that Ryan is our most consistent player and a captain. We generally know what to expect from him. Somewhere close to a double-double, good defense and few mistakes. I think it was more of a match-up issue with him against OSU. I say he has a get out of jail free card, definitely not on thin ice.

-Seth (another captain) has more than proved himself. Sure he's pulled a disappearing act before (VaTech) but its few and far in between. Not to mention he is what 10 games into being a PG now? He was going up against one of the best if not the best on ball defender in the country. I'd say he still gets some time to develop as a PG and prove he can handle big time pressure in big games. If that doesn't happen I expect he'll just see more time off of the ball, not really a loss of minutes. I did mention I have a feeling we'll start seeing more Quinn.

-Tyler's heart and defense has earned him the playing time he's getting this season. He is one of my favorite guys on the team. He doesn't have a history of disappearing at all. One off game from a guy like him does not warrant being on "thin ice". I expect to see him back hustling, playing great D, and interrupting the offensive flow of the opponent next game. That's his role, and that's just who he is as a basketball player it don't go away for long.

-Then there is Dre... He is also one of my favorite guys on the team, but unlike some fans it does not prevent me from recognizing his flaws as a player. He has one of the most silky smooth and beautiful shots ever. I'd rank it up there with Ray Allen on the prettiness scale. When he gets hot and starts hitting, its like poetry in motion. Simply amazing! BUT... for every game we get to see it there is probably 3 or 4 games of him standing around, playing marginal defense at best, and shooting 2 of 6 from the field, all while rendering himself pretty much ineffective. I would love to say that there is a pattern with him but we don't even have that. If there were a pattern we would know when to expect a big game. That inconsistency is why I would say he is on "thin ice". IF Silent G gets more playing time and proves he can play consistently at the level he did against OSU then I think its a no-brainer. We would lose some streaky offense, gain consistent perimeter defense, and some slashing ability. Which do you think K would choose?

So I guess what it boils down to for me is that the other guys you mentioned consistently contribute something that helps the team win. I don't see Andre coming off the bench diminishing what he brings to the table. Heck he might even get paid to do just that at the next level, come off the bench and knock down a couple shots. If he's hot ride him, if he's not put him back on the bench. I'm not sure why people feel the need to defend Andre's game at this point and pretend its something its not just because he is a likeable kid. He's not a great defender, he doesn't get out and run the floor to get a lot of layups in transition, he's not a slasher that can get to the rim a lot, and he's not a great rebounder. I apologize if it sounds harsh, that's not my intentions its just my opinion.

Kedsy

12-02-2011, 12:19 PM

I'm not sure why people feel the need to defend Andre's game at this point and pretend its something its not just because he is a likeable kid. He's not a great defender, he doesn't get out and run the floor to get a lot of layups in transition, he's not a slasher that can get to the rim a lot, and he's not a great rebounder. I apologize if it sounds harsh, that's not my intentions its just my opinion.

I'm not defending him because he's a likeable kid. I honestly think he deserves to keep his starting role. He's a much improved defender, and a clutch player. In two of the games in which he "disappeared," he hit critical three-pointers in the last minute or two. I think our offense is significantly better when he's in the game, whether or not he personally is doing the scoring.

But obviously it's Coach K's opinion that counts, not mine or yours. CBSSportsline reported earlier today that Quinn might replace Andre in the starting lineup. We'll see what happens.

roywhite

12-02-2011, 12:25 PM

Kedsy

12-02-2011, 12:42 PM

Thanks for the heads-up, Kedsy.

Well, I got it from airowe's twitter feed, but you're welcome.

davekay1971

12-02-2011, 12:55 PM

Thanks for the heads-up, Kedsy.

Here's the link:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/rapid-reports/post/16319794

Regarding that link:

Is Shawn Krest someone in the know? Honest question there...because from reading what he wrote I have no idea if Krest's statements were pure speculation or likely to be based on information from the Duke coaching staff.

JMarley50

12-02-2011, 01:16 PM

I'm not defending him because he's a likeable kid. I honestly think he deserves to keep his starting role. He's a much improved defender, and a clutch player. In two of the games in which he "disappeared," he hit critical three-pointers in the last minute or two. I think our offense is significantly better when he's in the game, whether or not he personally is doing the scoring.

But obviously it's Coach K's opinion that counts, not mine or yours. CBSSportsline reported earlier today that Quinn might replace Andre in the starting lineup. We'll see what happens.

I agree that he can make the big shot in clutch situations. He did it against Baylor in 2010 and several times since. That is why I think he'll have a spot somewhere at the next level, whether it be NBA or Europe. There is always a spot for a guy like that on a team and I'm glad we have him. Robert Horry made a pretty good living hitting a couple of shots a game, they just always seemed to be in critical moments. For the last 10 years of his career he mainly came off the bench, but he was arguably one of the most important players. That's kind of what I was referring to when I said coming off the bench won't diminish what Andre brings to the table.

I know our opinions don't really count but its always fun being able to voice them and get into some good debates. I expected to see more Quinn but not necessarily starting. I guess that will slide Austin to the 3. Should be interesting.

oldnavy

12-02-2011, 01:29 PM

Sorry I offended you; I intended no offense.

We didn't just get beaten on an off night, we were thrashed in every aspect of the game by a team that, on that night, was clearly superior. Sure, say we had an off night and we'll get you next time; we can do better; we were tired and on the road; that our performance doesn't fairly represent this team's level of play. But the bravado and bluster of asserting that next time we're going to teach Mr. Sullinger "what Duke basketball is all about" struck me as kind of silly in the wake of that defeat.

I know we got whooped good, but I really didn't ever get the feeling during that game that we were getting "thrashed". I have watched us get "thrashed" before (as mentioned above; the UNLV beat down in 90, second half of last years AZ game), but this didn't ever feel like that to me.

I just saw a team that was flat (Duke), whose shots were not falling, playing a team that was red hot and playing about as well as possible.

Now, granted I had just watched the team play three games in Maui and was really impressed and actually pleasently surprised at the growth so far, so maybe I just had that in the back of my mind watching the OSU game.

CDu

12-02-2011, 04:22 PM

I know we got whooped good, but I really didn't ever get the feeling during that game that we were getting "thrashed". I have watched us get "thrashed" before (as mentioned above; the UNLV beat down in 90, second half of last years AZ game), but this didn't ever feel like that to me.

I just saw a team that was flat (Duke), whose shots were not falling, playing a team that was red hot and playing about as well as possible.

Now, granted I had just watched the team play three games in Maui and was really impressed and actually pleasently surprised at the growth so far, so maybe I just had that in the back of my mind watching the OSU game.

I'd say it was a thrashing. There might have been reasons that caused the thrashing, but it was a thrashing. The fact that we are probably a better team than we showed and OSU is probably not as dominant as they showed doesn't make it not a thrashing.

oldnavy

12-02-2011, 05:03 PM

I'd say it was a thrashing. There might have been reasons that caused the thrashing, but it was a thrashing. The fact that we are probably a better team than we showed and OSU is probably not as dominant as they showed doesn't make it not a thrashing.

You are probably right, but for some reason I wasn't discouraged by it like some of the other thrashings we have had in the past. Like I said, I was probably on a Maui laid back hangover...

Duvall

12-02-2011, 05:05 PM

You are probably right, but for some reason I wasn't discouraged by it like some of the other thrashings we have had in the past. Like I said, I was probably on a Maui laid back hangover...

Well, it's November and this team had already banked a few resume wins already. Hard to get too worried with months to get prepared before March.

oldnavy

12-02-2011, 05:09 PM

Well, it's November and this team had already banked a few resume wins already. Hard to get too worried with months to get prepared before March.

Yea, I guess that could be it. I have seen the guys make big improvement from the Belmont game (which at the time worried me a little more than the OSU loss has), so I know that this was just one of those things... I still really, really like this team.

CDu

12-02-2011, 05:32 PM

You are probably right, but for some reason I wasn't discouraged by it like some of the other thrashings we have had in the past. Like I said, I was probably on a Maui laid back hangover...

Sure, I can get on board with it not being necessarily a discouraging thrashing.

hq2

12-02-2011, 05:38 PM

But obviously it's Coach K's opinion that counts, not mine or yours. CBSSportsline reported earlier today that Quinn might replace Andre in the starting lineup.

Not surprising. Andre's not a great defensive player, so when he's not getting good shots, he doesn't contribute that much. Still, I think K needs
to stop and think about it. Andre's kind of a head case type player; benching him for one bad game could really hurt his effectiveness. I think
he may get one more try before K sits him.

oldnavy

12-02-2011, 05:46 PM

Not surprising. Andre's not a great defensive player, so when he's not getting good shots, he doesn't contribute that much. Still, I think K needs
to stop and think about it. Andre's kind of a head case type player; benching him for one bad game could really hurt his effectiveness. I think
he may get one more try before K sits him.

Head case is probably unfair. Andre is a little more expressive with his emotions than some. I saw a game in Cameron where he was talking back to the coaching staff when he got yanked after a defensive breakdown. I don't think benching him would hurt anything but his feelings. He seems to respond pretty well after some "coaching".

When I think of head case, I think of Rasheed Wallace or McCants at UNC. There are others from other schools (including Duke), but I like picking on the baby blue!

mapei

12-02-2011, 05:57 PM

oldnavy

12-02-2011, 06:15 PM

Re: thrashing, bravado, etc. We got beat by 22(?) points and it really wasn't that close - it could easily have been 30. Or, we could have been on top of our game and lost by 10. Sometimes the other team's better. That doesn't happen often with Duke, but it did this week.

That doesn't mean we can't surprise people and win if there's a rematch down the line. In a single game, anything can happen. We're a good team with a great coach. If it were a seven-game series? You'd have to have a lot of extra cash to feel relaxed betting on us to take the series win.

Meanwhile, it always does seem kind of comical when fans of the team that lost by 20 do the woofing. Win first, than woof. Just MHO.

I hadn't noticed any woofing. I have noticed a lot of folks, myself included thinking that this beating wasn't indicative of any major issues or flaws with this team, at least fatal flaws that cannot be fixed. Yes OSU was/is better than us, and right now I think in a seven game series we would lose, but I think (perhaps I hope) that by the end of the year it very well could be a different story. Only time will tell...

Newton_14

12-02-2011, 07:43 PM

I still think people are putting way too much emphasis on one regular season game and have somehow forgotten the great progress, development and accomplishments in the first 7 games against a very strong schedule. How many teams would have went 7-1 against those 8 opponents in those locations in 18 days?

We got beat down. It happens. K was going to tinker in December no matter what. Maybe Quinn starts next Wednesday, or maybe Mike starts next Wednesday. Or maybe the same 5 that has been starting is sent out there again. Either way, this team collectively played at a very high level right out of the gate. The defense needs improvement, but it needed improvement before OSU. OSU shut down our perimeter. How many teams in the country are capable of doing that? Especially when we are not flat/jet lagged/deer in the headlights rattled/whatever?

Michigan looked awful flat against UVA playing under the same circumstances as Duke.

My point is, I put more stock in what I saw in 7 games verses what I saw in 1. One game does not make a trend. OSU would have killed a lot of teams Tuesday night, and Duke would have lost to a lot teams Tuesday night.

Don't lose sight of the fact this is already a darn good team, that, if certain issues get worked out, can get significantly better.... without a major overhaul. K and staff will tinker, individual players will develop and improve, and a lot of wins will be racked up along the way.

FWIW, one of my best friends at work is a female who played hoops in high school, and at a small college. We talk hoops a lot and she has a great knowledge of the game. On Tuesday, she came by and asked me my thoughts on the game that evening. I told her I felt good about our chances because we were playing at such a high level, were battle tested, and OSU had not played the level of competition Duke had. She gave me that look, and said "I think your boys are in trouble tonight". I asked why, and she said, "Look your guys are really good. But, they have traveled to the ends of the earth and back, and are coming off a big emotional high winning that last game against Kansas. I am afraid they won't have anything in the mental or physical gas tank. Meanwhile, OSU is fresh, rested, and is going to treat this like their biggest game of the year. That's a bad combination, and I think this one could potentially be ugly".

I conceded that she made a good point, and I told her the line was much higher than I had expected which bothered me. She came by Wednesday, not to gloat, but just to discuss how it went, and she stressed that it was just one game under difficult circumstances, so don't over analyze it.

So, this time I am heeding her advice...

davekay1971

12-02-2011, 07:58 PM

I'd say it was a thrashing. There might have been reasons that caused the thrashing, but it was a thrashing. The fact that we are probably a better team than we showed and OSU is probably not as dominant as they showed doesn't make it not a thrashing.

This reminds me of a conversation we had in ICU rounds when I was a resident. One of the residents made the mistake of describing a patient as "peeing like a racehorse" in response to diuretic.

The attending, looking at the flow sheet, replied, dead serious, "No, that's only 100 cc's an hour. That's peeing like a little pony. It has to be at least 300 cc's and hour to be peeing like a racehorse."

At which point he launched into a detailed breakdown of peeing like a racehorse, a plowhorse, a mule, a pony, a miniature horse, a big dog, a little dog, and a chihuahua. Never once cracking a smile.

Perhaps we, at DBR, need a breakdown of beatdowns, categories basically describing the:
most brutal (UNLV '90, UVA '83, Clemson a couple years back)
really bad but not quite as brutal (Arizona last year, UNC ACC championship loss 1991, Ohio State)
bad but not quite really bad (Georgetown 2010, for example)
etc, right on down to the memorable narrow oh-crap losses (UConn 1999, Arkansas 1994)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

12-02-2011, 09:19 PM

Re: thrashing, bravado, etc....

Meanwhile, it always does seem kind of comical when fans of the team that lost by 20 do the woofing. Win first, than woof. Just MHO.

I missed the woofing too... Please explain?

We got our rear ends handed to us, absolutely. But I want the chance to avenge the loss. Is that a bad idea?

Kfanarmy

12-03-2011, 12:27 AM

moonpie23

12-03-2011, 09:37 AM

I'll bet you there aren't too many OSU fans who would like to see Duke in the same bracket come tourney time, on a neutral court with both revenge and the chance to advance in Blue Devil hearts...I'm not sure OSU could beat Duke a month from now, and I'm quite sure the team and the coaches will be prepared for the next meeting!

i disagree....the way they beat us, i'd bet they would love to see us in the championship game.....not saying we couldn't make a better showing, but thos folks are thinking they own us right now...

Bob Green

12-03-2011, 10:54 AM

i disagree....the way they beat us, i'd bet they would love to see us in the championship game.....not saying we couldn't make a better showing, but thos folks are thinking they own us right now...

April 2, 1990: UNLV 103, Duke 73
March 30, 1991: Duke 79, UNLV 77

I'm not afraid of playing Ohio State again.

COYS

12-03-2011, 11:44 AM

April 2, 1990: UNLV 103, Duke 73
March 30, 1991: Duke 79, UNLV 77

I'm not afraid of playing Ohio State again.

Agreed. To be the best, you gotta beat the best. If we see OSU again, it's cause we're playing in the Elite 8, Final 4, or Championship Game. I'd take that in a heartbeat.

uh_no

12-03-2011, 12:21 PM

April 2, 1990: UNLV 103, Duke 73
March 30, 1991: Duke 79, UNLV 77

I'm not afraid of playing Ohio State again.

being a different season makes a huge difference.....that doesn't change your conclusion, though.

I wouldn't want to see OSU next week or even next month. I don't really WANT to see them in march (or more likely april) but by then I think we have as good a shot as anyone else to beat them

6th Man

12-03-2011, 12:47 PM

April 2, 1990: UNLV 103, Duke 73
March 30, 1991: Duke 79, UNLV 77

I'm not afraid of playing Ohio State again.

There was a pretty big difference maker that we had against UNLV...Grant Hill came in for the rematch. If Grant Hill was available for the Ohio State rematch I'd feel a little better about our chances.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15

12-03-2011, 03:08 PM

There was a pretty big difference maker that we had against UNLV...Grant Hill came in for the rematch. If Grant Hill was available for the Ohio State rematch I'd feel a little better about our chances.

I think you forget - NO ONE expected Duke to win that game, Grant Hill or not. I completely echo Bob Green's sentiments - avenging a bad loss can be very invigorating. In fact, here's one for the forum... what's the biggest example of Duke avenging a bad loss post-1991? Recent years have been rather kind to our team and we haven't had too many opportunities.

1 24 90

12-03-2011, 03:11 PM

I think you forget - NO ONE expected Duke to win that game, Grant Hill or not. I completely echo Bob Green's sentiments - avenging a bad loss can be very invigorating. In fact, here's one for the forum... what's the biggest example of Duke avenging a bad loss post-1991? Recent years have been rather kind to our team and we haven't had too many opportunities.

I enjoyed the West Virginia win even though it was 2 years later.

OldSchool

12-03-2011, 03:40 PM

I wouldn't want to see OSU next week or even next month. I don't really WANT to see them in march (or more likely april) but by then I think we have as good a shot as anyone else to beat them

We match up better against OSU than we do against teams like UNC or KY.

I put this loss down to 1) hot shooting by OSU, 2) Duke throwing up bricks, even airballs, 3) atypically slow-footed defense by Duke and 4) inconsistent officiating.

I like the odds of getting Sullinger into foul trouble on a neutral floor with consistent officiating. Mason can be effective in the post against Sullinger and Rivers can get into the lane and force Sullinger to defend or foul.

I wouldn't mind seeing OSU in the tourney.

arnie

12-03-2011, 03:54 PM

We match up better against OSU than we do against teams like UNC or KY.

I put this loss down to 1) hot shooting by OSU, 2) Duke throwing up bricks, even airballs, 3) atypically slow-footed defense by Duke and 4) inconsistent officiating.

I like the odds of getting Sullinger into foul trouble on a neutral floor with consistent officiating. Mason can be effective in the post against Sullinger and Rivers can get into the lane and force Sullinger to defend or foul.

I wouldn't mind seeing OSU in the tourney.

Agree with the hot shooting argument - don't think they hit those shots again. Possibly agree that the bricks were worse than normal, but we shall see as the season progresses. I don't like to complain about officiating.

Don't agree with the "atypical slow feet on defense" as I think that's our biggest problem. Afraid this year, we lose to teams that normally we'd squeeze with our defense (think teams like UVA, Miami, possibly State).

1 24 90

12-03-2011, 04:02 PM

Agree with the hot shooting argument - don't think they hit those shots again.

OSU was a whopping 3-13 from 3 today against Texas-Pan American.

MCFinARL

12-03-2011, 04:10 PM

I'm not defending him because he's a likeable kid. I honestly think he deserves to keep his starting role. He's a much improved defender, and a clutch player. In two of the games in which he "disappeared," he hit critical three-pointers in the last minute or two. I think our offense is significantly better when he's in the game, whether or not he personally is doing the scoring.

But obviously it's Coach K's opinion that counts, not mine or yours. CBSSportsline reported earlier today that Quinn might replace Andre in the starting lineup. We'll see what happens.

I agree. I'm not sure why some people on this board are so quick to dump on Andre, who has made great strides on defense, has ice water in his veins when he has to make clutch shots, moves much more without the ball than he used to, and generally seems to be working hard. Sometimes I think people have a fantasy of the player they think Andre could be that interferes with their appreciation of the player he is.

That being said, I'm sure Coach K will not be consulting me on his starting line up either. We will just have to see what happens. Some of what ends up happening with lineups this year may depend on who is best able to bring a spark off the bench and who gets more confidence out of starting, as well.

Kedsy

12-03-2011, 04:11 PM

We match up better against OSU than we do against teams like UNC or KY.

Well, I'm not so sure. Ohio State has such tremendous perimeter defense, and that's what kept us out of the game (well, that plus poor defense on our part and/or uncharacteristically great shooting on their part). Kentucky and UNC don't appear to have very good perimeter defense at all. I suspect we'd find it much easier to score against either UNC or UK than we did against OSU. As far as stopping them, I don't think we'd have significantly more problems against UNC or UK than we did against OSU. So I'm not sure I see how we match up better against Ohio State?

jwm

12-03-2011, 04:16 PM

OSU is more talented, although not as much as the score indicated, but I doubt if they played with any more drive, but most importantly I think they played with more confidence. I think there are two things we can deduce from the thrashing our team received:

1. Ohio State played with more confidence on that day than our team did

2. Tomorrow is another day.

jimsumner

12-03-2011, 04:56 PM

being a different season makes a huge difference.....that doesn't change your conclusion, though.

I wouldn't want to see OSU next week or even next month. I don't really WANT to see them in march (or more likely april) but by then I think we have as good a shot as anyone else to beat them

Let me give you another one.

February 23, 1980. UNC 96 Duke 71.
February 29, 1980. Duke 75 UNC 61

A 39-point turnaround in six days.

Some other scores of interest

1-7-78 NC State 74 Duke 50
2-2-78 Wake Forest 79 Duke 60
1-18-89 UNC 91 Duke 71
1-26-89 NC State 88 Duke 73
1-17-90 UNC 79 Duke 60
3-10-91 UNC 96 Duke 74
2-17-01 Maryland 91 Duke 80, in CIS, it's Over.
11-29-03 Purdue 78 Duke 68 Purdue ended that season 17-14, 7-9 in the Big 10
1-20-10 NC State 88 Duke 74
1-30-10 Georgetown 89 Duke 77

If you recall how those seasons turned out, the point needs no further elaboration.

6th Man

12-03-2011, 06:40 PM

I think you forget - NO ONE expected Duke to win that game, Grant Hill or not. I completely echo Bob Green's sentiments - avenging a bad loss can be very invigorating. In fact, here's one for the forum... what's the biggest example of Duke avenging a bad loss post-1991? Recent years have been rather kind to our team and we haven't had too many opportunities.

Nope...didn't forget we weren't expected to win. But Grant Hill did make a difference. I've heard Coach K say as much. Not trying to be snippy but it's not quite the same. Jim's same season rematches make more sense to me.

OldSchool

12-03-2011, 08:27 PM

Well, I'm not so sure. Ohio State has such tremendous perimeter defense, and that's what kept us out of the game (well, that plus poor defense on our part and/or uncharacteristically great shooting on their part). Kentucky and UNC don't appear to have very good perimeter defense at all. I suspect we'd find it much easier to score against either UNC or UK than we did against OSU. As far as stopping them, I don't think we'd have significantly more problems against UNC or UK than we did against OSU. So I'm not sure I see how we match up better against Ohio State?

Against OSU, we were able to get the ball to the post or into the lane quite well. Go back and look at the tape and you will see we missed a lot of close in, good looks. It wasn't just the 21-footers we were missing, we missed a lot of 5-foot shots.

I thought the coaches' offensive game plan against OSU was fine - we were able to get our bigs good looks close in and AR was able to get into the lane without problem. We just missed a lot of good looks and didn't get foul calls against Sullinger.

Against UNC, their length is going to be another story on the inside and it is going to be much more difficult to get good looks from close in. We are going to have to hit our outside shots in addition to playing great defense to beat UNC. But, we are capable of doing that.

The problem against OSU was primarily poor shooting and slow-footed defense. Also, they were shooting very well in their home gym. It was not that OSU presented particularly difficult match-ups for us.

Kedsy

12-03-2011, 11:25 PM

The problem against OSU was primarily poor shooting and slow-footed defense. Also, they were shooting very well in their home gym. It was not that OSU presented particularly difficult match-ups for us.

See, I disagree. I didn't feel we shot poorly as much as we just couldn't get any good looks. Andre, Seth, Ryan just couldn't shake their man to get good open looks. Seth took a few and missed them, but Andre and Ryan didn't take any threes at all (and only three shots, total, between them). Because they were smothered before they could even get the ball (Seth, too; he started with the ball, so he was able to get a few shots off, but to me they didn't look like good shots to take; he couldn't seem to get any kind of separation from Craft).

I know we missed a few inside shots, but we shot 57.5% on 2-point shots against Ohio State, which is actually a much better percentage than we shot from 2-point range for our first 7 games (around 51.5%). So missing five foot shots wasn't our problem.

I do agree on the slow-footed defense part.

As far as UNC is concerned, my guess is they won't be significantly tougher for our bigs than Sullinger was. But it'll be a lot easier for our perimeter guys to get good looks against them, so in my mind that means we match up better.

DukieInBrasil

12-04-2011, 09:11 AM

Against OSU, we were able to get the ball to the post or into the lane quite well. Go back and look at the tape and you will see we missed a lot of close in, good looks. It wasn't just the 21-footers we were missing, we missed a lot of 5-foot shots.

I thought the coaches' offensive game plan against OSU was fine - we were able to get our bigs good looks close in and AR was able to get into the lane without problem. We just missed a lot of good looks and didn't get foul calls against Sullinger.

I only watched the 1st half, but i remember a few close shots we missed, a couple by AR who was, as you pointed out, getting into the lane and to the rim without problem. We missed a few, i wouldn't say a lot. However, we also made a lot, close to 60% inside. What compounded those misses was that they were critical, at least one time we missed a high quality shot with a chance to take the lead, which psychologically is a very important thing. At other times we missed good shots when which would have broken OSU momentum. As it turned out, it may not have mattered, seeing as how OSU won by 22, more points than we would have scored from all of the missed close-in shots together.

OldSchool

12-04-2011, 05:24 PM

See, I disagree. I didn't feel we shot poorly as much as we just couldn't get any good looks. Andre, Seth, Ryan just couldn't shake their man to get good open looks. Seth took a few and missed them, but Andre and Ryan didn't take any threes at all (and only three shots, total, between them). Because they were smothered before they could even get the ball (Seth, too; he started with the ball, so he was able to get a few shots off, but to me they didn't look like good shots to take; he couldn't seem to get any kind of separation from Craft).

I know we missed a few inside shots, but we shot 57.5% on 2-point shots against Ohio State, which is actually a much better percentage than we shot from 2-point range for our first 7 games (around 51.5%). So missing five foot shots wasn't our problem.

I do agree on the slow-footed defense part.

As far as UNC is concerned, my guess is they won't be significantly tougher for our bigs than Sullinger was. But it'll be a lot easier for our perimeter guys to get good looks against them, so in my mind that means we match up better.

Well, we can agree on the poor defense. Giving up 47 points in the first half was the main reason for the loss, due to poor defense by us and hot shooting by them.

On offense in the first half, we shot somewhere around 50% from 2. I don't expect a team to make 100% of layups and close-in chippies, but still we left 3-4 on the table. Combine that with only 1-7 from 3-pt, and I think we underperformed just by poor shooting alone in the first half by about 10 pts.

Sullinger did not prove to be the tough match-up for us. We got good inside looks for shots against OSU notwithstanding Sullinger on the floor for pretty much the entire game, and for his 37 minutes he had if I recall only 21 and 8. Obviously it would have been nice to get their best player in foul trouble to sit him for a few minutes, and it's true that we double-teamed him at times creating opportunites for others, but we are quite capable of playing better defense than we did against OSU.

OSU just doesn't have the length inside that UNC does. Mason simply is not going to be able to back down Zeller or Henson in the post and get clear 5-ft looks at the basket as we saw him do against Sullinger.

That's why I consider UNC a harder match-up for us, even though OSU plays harder perimeter defense. We can still beat UNC, but we will need AR to break down the defense. Against UNC, AR is going to have to do more dishing to the bigs or kicking out for 3 when he penetrates, because Henson and Zeller are just too long for him to consistently put it off the glass over them. Can't wait to see that matchup!

Kedsy

12-04-2011, 06:01 PM

On offense in the first half, we shot somewhere around 50% from 2. I don't expect a team to make 100% of layups and close-in chippies, but still we left 3-4 on the table. Combine that with only 1-7 from 3-pt, and I think we underperformed just by poor shooting alone in the first half by about 10 pts.

We shot 55% (11 for 20) from 2-point range in the first half against Ohio State, which is about as good (or better) as we can expect. The 1 for 7 was poor, but 3 of the misses were ill-advised shots by Thornton and Cook (none of which had any real chance of going in, IIRC). So I'd say we left maybe 3 points on the table from poor shooting.

I don't think you and I are that far apart in our opinions. Ultimately, I still say the loss was a combination of poor defense on our part and great perimeter defense on their part. If we play that poorly on defense we'll lose to a lot of top teams, but if we shore that up, I don't think either UNC or Kentucky has the same ferocious perimeter D that Ohio State displayed. Which is why I think we match up better with either of them. But I concede it's a matter of opinion.