Singler to stay in Spain?

[Delaware]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-wojnarowski_kyle_singler_pistons_112911

Interesting move.

[Matches]

I think 2nd round picks are going to have a really tough time making NBA rosters with the shortened training camps. Tough to leave a guaranteed job for something iffy.

[NSDukeFan]

I think 2nd round picks are going to have a really tough time making NBA rosters with the shortened training camps. Tough to leave a guaranteed job for something iffy.

May not be a bad decision, but selfishly, I was looking forward to seeing how he would fare in the NBA as I think he has a place in the league, which he will show next year.

[feldspar]

Is this just a move by Singler's agent to get him a better contract? Everything I've read says Joe Dumars was pretty jacked about landing Singler, meaning the Pistons were ready to pay up.

[roywhite]

May not be a bad decision, but selfishly, I was looking forward to seeing how he would fare in the NBA as I think he has a place in the league, which he will show next year.


And not a place in the Duke rafters?

Sorry if I missed it, but was it definitely stated that he would or would not have his jersey retired?
Based on the timing, and Alex Murphy wearing #12, I'll assume not.

Wish Kyle well; a total warrior and great guy.

[Bob Green]

Is this just a move by Singler's agent to get him a better contract?

The opportunity to live and work overseas is an invaluable experience. I spent a great deal of my adult life living and traveling in Asia and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I wish Kyle Singler the best in Spain...the NBA can wait until next year.

[NSDukeFan]

And not a place in the Duke rafters?

Sorry if I missed it, but was it definitely stated that he would or would not have his jersey retired?
Based on the timing, and Alex Murphy wearing #12, I'll assume not.

Wish Kyle well; a total warrior and great guy.

I would like to see Kyle in the Duke rafters, but again that is a very biased opinion. (Mind you the guy who makes the decisions would certainly be biased as well, but he tends to make pretty good decisions nevertheless.)

[feldspar]

The opportunity to live and work overseas is an invaluable experience. I spent a great deal of my adult life living and traveling in Asia and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. I wish Kyle Singler the best in Spain...the NBA can wait until next year.

Hey, I'm not knocking the overseas experience, I'm just saying from everything I read, Singler was going to get offered a pretty decent contract once restrictions are lifted next week.

And, I don't think it's as cut and dry as just saying the NBA can wait until next year. Lots can happen between now and then. It's not unfair to say that Kyle would be taking a pretty substantial risk by not signing if the Pistons offer.

[gwlaw99]

If he is assured playing time, then I would go to the NBA. But, better to play on a very good Spanish team like Real Madrid than sit on the bench for a year I guess.

[DukieInBrasil]

If he is assured playing time, then I would go to the NBA. But, better to play on a very good Spanish team like Real Madrid than sit on the bench for a year I guess.
I'd agree with that. Do the Pistons retain their rights to sign him first if/when he comes back from Spain? Assuming of course that he stays there at most til the end of the season he's playing now.

[juise]

I'd agree with that. Do the Pistons retain their rights to sign him first if/when he comes back from Spain? Assuming of course that he stays there at most til the end of the season he's playing now.

I have no idea if my source (http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q43) is reliable, but...


If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends.

[jimsumner]

And not a place in the Duke rafters?

Sorry if I missed it, but was it definitely stated that he would or would not have his jersey retired?
Based on the timing, and Alex Murphy wearing #12, I'll assume not.

Wish Kyle well; a total warrior and great guy.

As a general rule, you don't announce that you aren't retiring someone's jersey.

Singler scores very high in aggregate career stats and he was MOP of a Final Four, which is no small accomplishment.

Then again, so was Jeff Sheppard.

Not only was Singler never ACC or national POY, he never even made first-team All-American. Last years's pre-season national POY, Singler barely made first-team All-ACC.

Don't get me wrong. I love what Singler brought to Duke basketball. But I would hard-pressed to justify retiring his jersey before that of Bob Verga or Jim Spanarkel.

[hq2]

Not only was Singler never ACC or national POY, he never even made first-team All-American. Last years's pre-season national POY, Singler barely made first-team All-ACC.

Don't get me wrong. I love what Singler brought to Duke basketball. But I would hard-pressed to justify retiring his jersey before that of Bob Verga or Jim Spanarkel.


...or Gene Banks or Mark Alarie. Singler was a very good player who scored a lot of points, but never a great one. As far as coming back is concerned, it's
a wash; play in Spain or sit (mostly) on the bench in America. He'll probably make about the same amount of $$$$ either way. Hey, he's having fun over
there, so why bother to come home to sit on the bench in Detroit (of all cities!)?

[arydolphin]

First of all, from the article in the OP:


Detroit retains Singler’s rights for the 2012-13 season when he is expected to come to the NBA.

So this is a 1-year deal for Singler, and his agent says in the article that he will get a higher salary than he would have with the Pistons this year. Plus, Real Madrid is one of the top European teams, he'll get good experience over there. I just hope that his decision to stay over there doesn't sour his relationship with the Pistons' front office.

[killerleft]

Or it could be that Kyle will live happily ever after (or at least several years) in Spain, playing basketball and enjoying a life without the NBA - or Detroit.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

First of all, from the article in the OP:



So this is a 1-year deal for Singler, and his agent says in the article that he will get a higher salary than he would have with the Pistons this year. Plus, Real Madrid is one of the top European teams, he'll get good experience over there. I just hope that his decision to stay over there doesn't sour his relationship with the Pistons' front office.

I'm not sure it would sour his relationship with Detroit. This is a much different time than in the late 80s when Ferry played overseas instead of with the Clips.

[weezie]

The sitch in Detroit, from a family/fan perspective, puts the Piston dead last in interest and expectations. It's a train wreck in the D, and, sad to say, mainly as a result of Joe Dumars having been kept on too long. Bill Richardson's death only delayed Joe's departure for a while, contracts or not. I like Joe, I just think the tide is out.

So, if Kyle feels he's better served by staying in Spain, it's not for the tapas, but for the exposure. Maybe he's waiting to see if the Piston can pull the act together, but I think it will take a miracle.

[DUKIE V(A)]

As a general rule, you don't announce that you aren't retiring someone's jersey.

Singler scores very high in aggregate career stats and he was MOP of a Final Four, which is no small accomplishment.

Then again, so was Jeff Sheppard.

Not only was Singler never ACC or national POY, he never even made first-team All-American. Last years's pre-season national POY, Singler barely made first-team All-ACC.

Don't get me wrong. I love what Singler brought to Duke basketball. But I would hard-pressed to justify retiring his jersey before that of Bob Verga or Jim Spanarkel.

I would be really surprised if both Kyle and Nolan did not eventually get their jerseys in the rafters. Kyle started from Day 1 and was a vital player all four seasons which included 3 ACC Tournament Championships and a National Title. He was ACC Tournament and Final Four MVP his Junior year. Nolan blew up his Junior and Senior years. He was a consesus All-American, ACC Player of the Year, and ACC TOurnament MVP his Senior year. Both were tremendous leaders and class guys throughout their time at Duke. They have my vote.

[NSDukeFan]

As a general rule, you don't announce that you aren't retiring someone's jersey.

Singler scores very high in aggregate career stats and he was MOP of a Final Four, which is no small accomplishment.

Then again, so was Jeff Sheppard.

Not only was Singler never ACC or national POY, he never even made first-team All-American. Last years's pre-season national POY, Singler barely made first-team All-ACC.

Don't get me wrong. I love what Singler brought to Duke basketball. But I would hard-pressed to justify retiring his jersey before that of Bob Verga or Jim Spanarkel.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the sentiment of your post that Kyle is probably no more deserving of having his jersey retired than some other Duke greats. I disagree that Kyle barely made first team all-ACC unless you feel that you and perhaps several other voters were very close to voting for someone else. Based on votes, Kyle was fourth and closer to third than he was to fifth in voting and he was closer to being unanimous than he was to being second team.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030711aad.html
All-ACC First Team
Nolan Smith, Duke (225)+
Jordan Williams, Maryland (210)
Malcolm Delaney, Virginia Tech (202)
Kyle Singler, Duke (199)
Reggie Jackson, Boston College (190)

All-ACC Second Team
Tyler Zeller, North Carolina (161)
John Henson, North Carolina (148)
Harrison Barnes, North Carolina (145)
Iman Shumpert, Georgia Tech (132)
Jeff Allen, Virginia Tech (131)

Granted, that may be me just being overly sensitive that Kyle had a frustrating year shooting the ball last year and did not end up getting the all-American consideration that we all hoped he would based on expectations coming into the year.

[awhom111]

I guess the reason he wants to stay in Spain is to get a chance to win some trophies with Marty!

I would not be surprised if the Pistons knew about the offer and possibly even implicitly approved of it.

I also wonder about the mechanics of this deal. His current contract had an NBA offer/lockout over clause, so maybe he exercised that to cut his ties with Alicante and leave him as a free agent to sign with Real Madrid? Maybe there was some compensation between the two teams (Marty cost Real Madrid a pretty decent sized buy out fee).

It is kind of sad that he will not get to finish the season with Alicante because it would have been quite an accomplishment for them to make it to the playoffs after such a strong start, but the money was probably nowhere in the region of his new offer and he gets the chance to play in the Euroleague now.

[jimsumner]

Perhaps "barely" is overstating it. But it's a long way from pre-season national POY.

Singler was never voted first-team All-America. By anyone. I'm not sure he was ever voted second-team A-A. By anyone. He never came close to ACC POY. In fact, he was never even the best player on his team, at least for an entire season. Nelson, Henderson, Scheyer and Smith were.

Singler was a model of consistency. He was one tough SOB and played through lots of injuries during a period when Duke played lots of games. As a result, he moved way up the Duke career charts in categories like most games played, most minutes played, total points, total rebounds and so forth. Also, most wins and he deserves a lot of credit for those wins.

But the standards for jersey retirement are necessarily pretty high for a program at Duke's level. At schools with less success, players like Jack Marin, Steve Vacendak, Bob Verga, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Elton Brand, Trajan Langdon, Chris Carrawell, Mike Dunleavy, Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Singler would have been so honored.

But none of these guys have and none likely will. That just shows how exclusive this club is and how high are the standards.

Now, let's watch some hoops!



Unfortunately, I have to agree with the sentiment of your post that Kyle is probably no more deserving of having his jersey retired than some other Duke greats. I disagree that Kyle barely made first team all-ACC unless you feel that you and perhaps several other voters were very close to voting for someone else. Based on votes, Kyle was fourth and closer to third than he was to fifth in voting and he was closer to being unanimous than he was to being second team.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030711aad.html
All-ACC First Team
Nolan Smith, Duke (225)+
Jordan Williams, Maryland (210)
Malcolm Delaney, Virginia Tech (202)
Kyle Singler, Duke (199)
Reggie Jackson, Boston College (190)

All-ACC Second Team
Tyler Zeller, North Carolina (161)
John Henson, North Carolina (148)
Harrison Barnes, North Carolina (145)
Iman Shumpert, Georgia Tech (132)
Jeff Allen, Virginia Tech (131)

Granted, that may be me just being overly sensitive that Kyle had a frustrating year shooting the ball last year and did not end up getting the all-American consideration that we all hoped he would based on expectations coming into the year.

[miramar]

I guess the reason he wants to stay in Spain is to get a chance to win some trophies with Marty!


Marty's averaging 8.7 PPG so he's also doing quite well in Spain. Maybe GP3 should get off the Ohio State bench and join them.

[throatybeard]

The rain in Spain falls mainly on Kyle's stylistically-bankrupt tonsorial plain.

(Seriously, we're back on the Singler retirement crusade? Let me say, "What Sumner said."

Really, "What Sumner said" should be my sig quote).

[UrinalCake]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much money he's making in Spain, and how that compares to what he'd get if he came back? I can't remember if second-round picks are bound by the rookie salary scale.

I think he'd have a decent chance to play if he came back given that with the compressed schedule teams are playing games more often (including some stretches of games on three consecutive nights) and will need to use their benches more.

[blazindw]

As a Pistons fan as well as a huge Real Madrid fan, I'm conflicted. I hate the Pistons losing him for the year, because they really needed him. However, if they were going to lose him, I'm glad it was to one of my favorite clubs in the world (in any sport). Him and Marty will tear it up (Kyle has been doing really well over in Spain so far), and he'll remain in the ACB (probably the best basketball league in Europe) and will play in the Euroleague as well.

A lot of this definitely has to do with the short turnaround between signing contracts and training camps and the beginning of the season. I feel that a lot of 2nd round picks that were playing overseas will just stay there for the season rather than leave that guaranteed situation and come back to hopefully make a team. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think Kyle will flourish in a Madrid uniform, learn some Euro tricks and come back in 2012-13 ready to fly with the Pistons. The Pistons, as someone correctly pointed out, will retain his NBA rights for a year after his contract with Madrid ends (just like the Timberwolves with Ricky Rubio and his contract with Barcelona).

[BigZ]

Madrid or Detroit? Now you know why he is staying.

[BD80]

The Pistons are a team in transition, and are overstocked at the 3 (I don't see Kyle playing the 4 or the 2 in the NBA).

Tayshaun Prince and Tracy McGrady are free-agents and are likely gone. Jonas Jarebko and Austin Daye are the future for the Pistons (kind of sad, huh?), and each is a bit small for the 4.

Charlie Villanueva needs to be a 4, but thinks he's a 2. He appears to be allergic to the paint. I would love to see him gone via amnesty - even over Ben Gordon.

Rip Hamilton is getting too slow to defend the 2, and has 2 years left on his contract. It is said that he will be a valued commodity at the trade deadline.

Joe Dumars hasn't done well recently, but he has had no leeway the last couple of years since the death of owner Bill Davidson. Bill's widow Karen mandated no new contracts while she sold the team. God help the Pistons, but some rumors have us getting Brenda Haywood if Dallas keeps Tyson Chandler.

Frankly, a year in Spain will do Kyle some good, and will allow him to avoid a frustrating season in Detroit. The Pistons also need to work out their glut of undersized "scoring" guards who can't run or defend the point, but who need the ball to be effective: Ben Gordon, Rodney Stuckey, Brandon Knight(?). At least the season will be mercifully shorter this year. The Pistons should be well positioned for a deep 2012 draft.

Quick question: since the season has been trimmed by about 20% (16/82), wiil salaries be effectively reduced by the same amount, ie a player with a $10 million contract will get $8 million for the regular season?

[Matches]

Quick question: since the season has been trimmed by about 20% (16/82), wiil salaries be effectively reduced by the same amount, ie a player with a $10 million contract will get $8 million for the regular season?

Yes. The paychecks the players have missed are gone for good.

[weezie]

God help the Pistons, but some rumors have us getting Brenda Haywood if Dallas keeps Tyson Chandler.


Lord have mercy.......:(

[mkline09]

I for one am excited at the prospect of a Kyle Gets Buckets: European Edition. Not sure if Real Madrid will or does play in other countries because up until yesterday I thought it was only a football club. So anyone else want to see Singler make a basket from the top of the Eiffel Tower?

[awhom111]

Here is the news story from Real Madrid's official website:
http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/es/1193040472450/1330073865562/noticia/Noticia/Kyle_Singler,_nuevo_jugador_del_Real_Madrid.htm
It is only in Spanish right now and will probably be translated for their English website soon.


I for one am excited at the prospect of a Kyle Gets Buckets: European Edition. Not sure if Real Madrid will or does play in other countries because up until yesterday I thought it was only a football club. So anyone else want to see Singler make a basket from the top of the Eiffel Tower?

Real Madrid does compete in the Euroleague so they play all over Europe. Having multiple sports in a club is pretty common in places like Spain, Greece, and Turkey. Other famous clubs like CSKA Moscow have multiple sports and Bayern Munich just started to invest in their basketball section this year. In Spain, Barcelona has teams for all sorts of sports, including Baseball, Ice Hockey, and Wheelchair Basketball.

If only there were a thread further down the page that tracked the whereabouts of all former Duke Basketball players outside of the Unites States...

[burnspbesq]

http://www.marca.com/2011/11/29/baloncesto/acb/1322601844.html

My Spanish is pretty much nonexistent, so I don't know whether the 900,000 Euros is Kyle's salary or the transfer fee. Perhaps one of y'all can help out with a translation.

[Bluedog]

http://www.marca.com/2011/11/29/baloncesto/acb/1322601844.html

My Spanish is pretty much nonexistent, so I don't know whether the 900,000 Euros is Kyle's salary or the transfer fee. Perhaps one of y'all can help out with a translation.

Here is what google translate says...


The contract that the club wants to sign with white Singler (15,000 euros charged monthly and will now gain 900,000 for the remainder of the season) will only tie up the season finale. Then would be free to try the American adventure.

Still not 100% clear, but I think 900,000 Euros ($1.2M US) is the salary for the remainder of the season, and then he could return to the NBA. I like this part:


His fall to the post 33 of the last 'draft' was described as "nonsense" and "injustice" by much of the press.

It looks like the transfer fee is 200,000 Euros?


200,000 euros could pocket the Lucentum for his transfer to Real Madrid

[Indoor66]

Here is what google translate says...



Still not 100% clear, but I think 900,000 Euros ($1.2M US) is the salary for the remainder of the season, and then he could return to the NBA. I like this part:



It looks like the transfer fee is 200,000 Euros?

What does he get when the Euro fails? Maybe he ought to go to Detroit.

[sagegrouse]

Perhaps "barely" is overstating it. But it's a long way from pre-season national POY.

Singler was never voted first-team All-America. By anyone. I'm not sure he was ever voted second-team A-A. By anyone. He never came close to ACC POY. In fact, he was never even the best player on his team, at least for an entire season. Nelson, Henderson, Scheyer and Smith were.

Singler was a model of consistency. He was one tough SOB and played through lots of injuries during a period when Duke played lots of games. As a result, he moved way up the Duke career charts in categories like most games played, most minutes played, total points, total rebounds and so forth. Also, most wins and he deserves a lot of credit for those wins.



Kyle was 2nd team All-American from the coaches association (NABC) in 2011. High praise from knowledgeable observers.

sage

[burnspbesq]

What does he get when the Euro fails? Maybe he ought to go to Detroit.

If his contract with Real doesn't call for him to be paid in USD, he needs a new agent.

[Neals384]

The Medford Mail Tribune says it is a $900,000 contract. They add:

(Singler's agent Greg) "Lawrence wouldn't confirm the amount of the contract but said it's "a very lucrative offer," adding that, "it's fair to say he'll net a lot more than he'd get in the NBA by taking this deal."

NBA contracts will be worth 80 percent of what they otherwise would have been because 20 percent of the 82-game schedule was wiped out. Moreover, the majority of European contracts are tax-free, according to Yahoo! Sports writer Adrian Wojnarowski, who originally reported the Singler deal and the dollar figure.

Wojnarowski noted that last season's 33rd overall pick — the same as Singler — was Hassan Whiteside of the Sacramento Kings, and he played for $730,437 as a rookie."

One additional factor noted by the MailTrib:

"He's played great over there," said Lawrence, adding that the European game suits him well because it's less individualized and relies on players sharing the ball and running sets.

"Kyle's not a selfish player," said Lawrence. "He works well in a system. He's not the type of player where, if he's not scoring, he doesn't give you much. He'll give you a lot of things every single game. He fits in very well."

Link (http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20111130/SPORTS/111300333/-1/sports)

[miramar]

http://www.marca.com/2011/11/29/baloncesto/acb/1322601844.html

My Spanish is pretty much nonexistent, so I don't know whether the 900,000 Euros is Kyle's salary or the transfer fee. Perhaps one of y'all can help out with a translation.

The auto translator wasn't too far off. He was making 15,000 per month with Alicante, and now they want to pay him 900,000 Euros for the rest of the season. One caveat: he will play this weekend with Alicante and then will have his Real Madrid medical review on Monday, so nothing is official yet. The new contract would only be until the end of the season and then he will be free to "try the American adventure."

Other tidbits:


He has adapted to the Spanish league perfectly and has been a real sensation during the first third of the season so he should be a good replacement for Rudy.

Not to mention that he is a former star of prestigious Duke University! He was also player of the week the first week of the Spanish league and (of course) was the final four MVP when Duke won the championship. The fact that he fell to the second round was outrageous and unfair according to the sporting press.

The entire article couldn't be more positive, so it seems that Kyle has really impressed people in the Spanish league.

[Indoor66]

The auto translator wasn't too far off. He was making 15,000 per month with Alicante, and now they want to pay him 900,000 Euros for the rest of the season. One caveat: he will play this weekend with Alicante and then will have his Real Madrid medical review on Monday, so nothing is official yet. The new contract would only be until the end of the season and then he will be free to "try the American adventure."

Other tidbits:


He has adapted to the Spanish league perfectly and has been a real sensation during the first third of the season so he should be a good replacement for Rudy.

Not to mention that he is a former star of prestigious Duke University! He was also player of the week the first week of the Spanish league and (of course) was the final four MVP when Duke won the championship. The fact that he fell to the second round was outrageous and unfair according to the sporting press.

The entire article couldn't be more positive, so it seems that Kyle has really impressed people in the Spanish league.

From what I have seen of Euro basketball, Singler is perfectly suited to that game. I hope he carves out a career there, a la Trajan. It can be a very nice life and career.

[Duvall]

The auto translator wasn't too far off. He was making 15,000 per month with Alicante, and now they want to pay him 900,000 Euros for the rest of the season. One caveat: he will play this weekend with Alicante and then will have his Real Madrid medical review on Monday, so nothing is official yet. The new contract would only be until the end of the season and then he will be free to "try the American adventure."

Other tidbits:


He has adapted to the Spanish league perfectly and has been a real sensation during the first third of the season so he should be a good replacement for Rudy.

Not to mention that he is a former star of prestigious Duke University! He was also player of the week the first week of the Spanish league and (of course) was the final four MVP when Duke won the championship. The fact that he fell to the second round was outrageous and unfair according to the sporting press.

J.L. Martinez is a writer of great discernment and insight.

[miramar]

This article from the Madrid daily El Pais indicates that Kyle will be making 680,000 Euros for the rest of the year, so it appears that the 900,000 figure refers to the dollar equivalent (as indicated above by Neals384).

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Madrid/apuesta/Singler/relevo/Rudy/elpepudep/20111130elpepudep_2/Tes

The article also indicates that there were doubts that Alicante was going to be able to make it economically this season, so Kyle is definitely better off with Real Madrid, a team that (at least on the soccer side) isn't afraid to throw money around.

Finally, even if you don't know a word of Spanish, you will understand this picture perfectly.

http://www.elpais.com/fotografia/deportes/Madrid/ficha/Singler/elpdiadep/20111130elpepudep_1/Ies/

[lotusland]

Perhaps "barely" is overstating it. But it's a long way from pre-season national POY.

Singler was never voted first-team All-America. By anyone. I'm not sure he was ever voted second-team A-A. By anyone. He never came close to ACC POY. In fact, he was never even the best player on his team, at least for an entire season. Nelson, Henderson, Scheyer and Smith were.

Singler was a model of consistency. He was one tough SOB and played through lots of injuries during a period when Duke played lots of games. As a result, he moved way up the Duke career charts in categories like most games played, most minutes played, total points, total rebounds and so forth. Also, most wins and he deserves a lot of credit for those wins.

But the standards for jersey retirement are necessarily pretty high for a program at Duke's level. At schools with less success, players like Jack Marin, Steve Vacendak, Bob Verga, Mike Lewis, Randy Denton, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Elton Brand, Trajan Langdon, Chris Carrawell, Mike Dunleavy, Carlos Boozer, Chris Duhon, Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Singler would have been so honored.

But none of these guys have and none likely will. That just shows how exclusive this club is and how high are the standards.

Now, let's watch some hoops!

I'm not sure which game is was but I recently heard a TV announcer say that Coach K reportedly said that Kyle was one of Dukes top 5 players all-time. I love Singler but I thought that was a huge exaggeration. Even if you only consider Dukies under K there's Johnny Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill, Battier, JJ and Shelden all clearly ahead of Kyle. I think you could make an argument for top 10 under K but even that would be very debatable. Did I misunderstand, did the announcer misspeak or did Coach K actually say that?

[Faison1]

This article from the Madrid daily El Pais indicates that Kyle will be making 680,000 Euros for the rest of the year, so it appears that the 900,000 figure refers to the dollar equivalent (as indicated above by Neals384).

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/deportes/Madrid/apuesta/Singler/relevo/Rudy/elpepudep/20111130elpepudep_2/Tes

The article also indicates that there were doubts that Alicante was going to be able to make it economically this season, so Kyle is definitely better off with Real Madrid, a team that (at least on the soccer side) isn't afraid to throw money around.

Finally, even if you don't know a word of Spanish, you will understand this picture perfectly.

http://www.elpais.com/fotografia/deportes/Madrid/ficha/Singler/elpdiadep/20111130elpepudep_1/Ies/

I looked at that picture and 2 thoughts came into my head:

1. Man, do I miss that guy!

2. I'm jealous! I would love to live in Spain making $600-900k per year. (I'd love to live anywhere making that kind of money, but Spain seems like it would be especially sweet.)

[jimsumner]

I'm not sure which game is was but I recently heard a TV announcer say that Coach K reportedly said that Kyle was one of Dukes top 5 players all-time. I love Singler but I thought that was a huge exaggeration. Even if you only consider Dukies under K there's Johnny Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill, Battier, JJ and Shelden all clearly ahead of Kyle. I think you could make an argument for top 10 under K but even that would be very debatable. Did I misunderstand, did the announcer misspeak or did Coach K actually say that?

K is horrible with math. He probably has 15 or 20 top-five players. :)

[BD80]

K is horrible with math. He probably has 15 or 20 top-five players. :)

I must be horrible as well, I agree with him!

[CDu]

I'm not sure which game is was but I recently heard a TV announcer say that Coach K reportedly said that Kyle was one of Dukes top 5 players all-time. I love Singler but I thought that was a huge exaggeration. Even if you only consider Dukies under K there's Johnny Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill, Battier, JJ and Shelden all clearly ahead of Kyle. I think you could make an argument for top 10 under K but even that would be very debatable. Did I misunderstand, did the announcer misspeak or did Coach K actually say that?

I'd add Jason Williams to that list as well. I'd agree that "borderline top 10 in the Coach K era" seems appropriate. And then you've got a few pre-K guys as well (Groat, Heyman, Gminski). So clearly top 5 is not accurate.

I wouldn't rule out a misunderstanding by the announcer. I wouldn't rule out the announcer having simply made up that part of the discussion based on a more general conversation with Coach K. And I wouldn't rule out that, if K did say it, it was simply an off-hand comment that he hadn't really pondered fully (that sort of thing happens, too).

[Bluedog]

I'm not sure which game is was but I recently heard a TV announcer say that Coach K reportedly said that Kyle was one of Dukes top 5 players all-time... Did I misunderstand, did the announcer misspeak or did Coach K actually say that?


I wouldn't rule out a misunderstanding by the announcer. I wouldn't rule out the announcer having simply made up that part of the discussion based on a more general conversation with Coach K. And I wouldn't rule out that, if K did say it, it was simply an off-hand comment that he hadn't really pondered fully (that sort of thing happens, too).

For the record, here's the quote:


"He'll be one of the top four or five players to ever play here as far as the credentials," Krzyzewski said. "When you win a national championship during your four years, you've already set yourself apart. But statistically, he's going to be among the top four or five in scoring, close to 1,000 rebounds. He's one of the best defenders we've had here. He's been amazing. In my 31 years, he's one of the really great players that we've had here."
http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/12156890/article-Coach-K--Singler--plays--winner-

[dukeballboy88]

I agree with K about Kyle being one of the greatest players ever at Duke. Dawkins, Ferry, Brand and Redick didnt finish the job like Kyle did. Kyle helped me get the T-Shirt I so covet each year. Well he may not crack the top 5 but he is top 8 for sure.

[jimsumner]

I agree with K about Kyle being one of the greatest players ever at Duke. Dawkins, Ferry, Brand and Redick didnt finish the job like Kyle did. Kyle helped me get the T-Shirt I so covet each year. Well he may not crack the top 5 but he is top 8 for sure.

Johnny Dawkins scored 24 points in his final Duke game, Danny Ferry scored 34. Dawkins scored 20 against Washington in '84, 18 against BC in '85. Ferry scored 20 points against IU in 1987, 19 against Kansas in '88.

Not sure what you're implying here but perhaps they didn't "finish the job" as well as Singler because they didn't get as much support.

Some of the greatest players in basketball history have been Final Four MOPs. Bill Russell. Wilt Chamberlain. Elgin Baylor. Jerry West. Lew Alcindor. Bill Walton. David Thompson. Magic Johnson. Danny Manning. Carmelo Anthony.

But it's no guarantee of greatness. That list also includes folks like Keith Smart, Anderson Hunt, Donald Williams, Jeff Sheppard, Corey Brewer and Wayne Ellington, good college players all, but not members of the pantheon by any rational standard.

Jersey retirement is based on career accomplishments. Thomas Hill started on two NCAA title teams but no one has ever seriously argued that he should have a jersey-retirement ceremony

Kyle Singler had a very, very good college career at Duke. J.J. Redick had a better career at Duke then did Kyle Singler. So did Dawkins and Ferry. Retiring their jerseys and not Singler's is a rational decision based on that criteria.

And trust me. If K wanted Singler's jersey retired, we'd be having a different discussion.

[Dev11]

Johnny Dawkins scored 24 points in his final Duke game, Danny Ferry scored 34. Dawkins scored 20 against Washington in '84, 18 against BC in '85. Ferry scored 20 points against IU in 1987, 19 against Kansas in '88.

Not sure what you're implying here but perhaps they didn't "finish the job" as well as Singler because they didn't get as much support.

I think he means that those guys didn't win NCAA championships, but as you pointed out, that doesn't really matter when it comes to this beaten-to-death-and-them-some jersey retirement discussion which we shouldn't be having anymore. Kyle isn't getting his jersey retired. There are different banners in the rafters that signify different accomplishments. Kyle, along with his teammates, won an NCAA championship and a few ACCs that are displayed in the ceiling. JJ Redick didn't win a championship, but his jersey is in the rafters for individual accomplishments.

[jimsumner]

I think he means that those guys didn't win NCAA championships, but as you pointed out, that doesn't really matter when it comes to this beaten-to-death-and-them-some jersey retirement discussion which we shouldn't be having anymore. Kyle isn't getting his jersey retired. There are different banners in the rafters that signify different accomplishments. Kyle, along with his teammates, won an NCAA championship and a few ACCs that are displayed in the ceiling. JJ Redick didn't win a championship, but his jersey is in the rafters for individual accomplishments.

I understand the not-winning-a-title part. But the statement that player A didn't finish the job as well as player B suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of winning team championships. Citing Dawkins and Ferry as examples seems downright perverse, considering how well they played in the NCAAs, especially the Final Four losses that ended their Duke careers as seniors. Excluding 1986, when he was a role player on a senior-dominated team, Ferry scored 73 points (24.3 ppg) in three NCAA Tournament losses. Dawkins scored 62 in three games. That constitutes not finishing the job?

Note that Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Art Heyman, Jerry Chambers and Hakeem Olajuwon were all named FF MOPs in losing efforts. Guess they didn't get the job done either.

Not one player who ever suited up for Vic Bubas or Bill Foster ended their seasons with an NCAA title. I find the implication that their careers were somehow deficient because they didn't finish the job to be disturbing.

[Dev11]

I understand the not-winning-a-title part. But the statement that player A didn't finish the job as well as player B suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of winning team championships. Citing Dawkins and Ferry as examples seems downright perverse, considering how well they played in the NCAAs, especially the Final Four losses that ended their Duke careers as seniors. Excluding 1986, when he was a role player on a senior-dominated team, Ferry scored 73 points (24.3 ppg) in three NCAA Tournament losses. Dawkins scored 62 in three games. That constitutes not finishing the job?

Note that Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Art Heyman, Jerry Chambers and Hakeem Olajuwon were all named FF MOPs in losing efforts. Guess they didn't get the job done either.

Not one player who ever suited up for Vic Bubas or Bill Foster ended their seasons with an NCAA title. I find the implication that their careers were somehow deficient because they didn't finish the job to be disturbing.

Agree with you, just pointing out that the poster is using slightly different definitions than the ones we might expect.

Message boards can be funny places.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Kyle isn't getting his jersey retired. There are different banners in the rafters that signify different accomplishments. Kyle, along with his teammates, won an NCAA championship and a few ACCs that are displayed in the ceiling. JJ Redick didn't win a championship, but his jersey is in the rafters for individual accomplishments.


Jersey retirement is based on career accomplishments. Thomas Hill started on two NCAA title teams but no one has ever seriously argued that he should have a jersey-retirement ceremony

Kyle Singler had a very, very good college career at Duke. J.J. Redick had a better career at Duke then did Kyle Singler. So did Dawkins and Ferry. Retiring their jerseys and not Singler's is a rational decision based on that criteria.

And trust me. If K wanted Singler's jersey retired, we'd be having a different discussion.


Not trying to be argumentative...Just trying to understand...Did Coach K say something about not retiring Kyle's jersey?...Am I being naive to think/continue hoping that Kyle will be so honored?

I agree that JJ and others who did not win a Championship had better overall careers at Duke and were more clearcut choices to have their jerseys retired than Kyle. That said, Kyle's 4 years of excellence, bigtime career numbers, great/versatile defense, and huge team success make me feel like he should be lock to get his jersey retired. I feel Nolan deserves to be in as well. Using Shelden as the barometer (which I supported his getting his jersey retired BTW), I see Kyle as more deserving and Nolan at least as deserving of the honor. Whereas I view guys like Trajan Langdon and John Scheyer, who are all-time favorites of mine and tremendous Dukies, as falling a notch below this threshold.

[jimsumner]

Not trying to be argumentative...Just trying to understand...Did Coach K say something about not retiring Kyle's jersey?...Am I being naive to think/continue hoping that Kyle will be so honored?

I agree that JJ and others who did not win a Championship had better overall careers at Duke and were more clearcut choices to have their jerseys retired than Kyle. That said, Kyle's 4 years of excellence, bigtime career numbers, great/versatile defense, and huge team success make me feel like he should be lock to get his jersey retired. I feel Nolan deserves to be in as well. Using Shelden as the barometer (which I supported his getting his jersey retired BTW), I see Kyle as more deserving and Nolan at least as deserving of the honor. Whereas I view guys like Trajan Langdon and John Scheyer, who are all-time favorites of mine and tremendous Dukies, as falling a notch below this threshold.

As I've said before, you don't announce that you are not going to retire a jersey. But Singler and Smith finished their Duke careers eight months ago and there has been no suggestion that anything along those lines is under active consideration. That should tell you all you need to know.

[Duvall]

As I've said before, you don't announce that you are not going to retire a jersey. But Singler and Smith finished their Duke careers eight months ago and there has been no suggestion that anything along those lines is under active consideration. That should tell you all you need to know.

Though to be fair, none of the players to have their jerseys retired after Battier had it announced within eight months. For some reason Duke likes to announce these things at the last minute.

[jimsumner]

Though to be fair, none of the players to have their jerseys retired after Battier had it announced within eight months. For some reason Duke likes to announce these things at the last minute.

Redick and Shelden's ceremonies were open secrets for months. The only question was timing their ceremonies to their schedules and Duke's schedules.

Duke doesn't have hard-and-fast rules but they have announced guidelines. Singler just doesn't meet those. He was never ACC or national POY, never made first-team All-America, never came close to leading the ACC in a major statistical category.

At the very least, one should have first-team All-America on your resume.

Nolan? He was first-team A-A and ACC POY. But Steve Vacendak, Elton Brand and Chris Carrawell also were ACC POY. Smith's career parallels that of Carrawell. Smith was a reserve his first two seasons, a second-team All-ACC player as a junior and had a marvelous senior season.

Is that enough? These discussions don't take place in a vacuum. Bob Verga was first-team All-ACC three times, second-team All-America as a junior, first-team All-America as a senior. He led the voting for All-ACC in 1967 and narrowly lost ACC POY to Larry Miller. Despite the absence of a shot clock or 3-point shot (Verga had extraordinary range), Verga averaged 22.0 ppg for his career, third best in Duke history. His 26.1 ppg in 1967 led the ACC and has only been bettered in Duke history by Redick, who most emphatically did have a 3-point shot.

Why the dissertation on Verga? His jersey is not retired. So any claim to that distinction must be accompanied by a resume superior to that of Bob Verga. As much as I like Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith--and I like all three very much, as players and people-- I do not believe that to be the case.

It's a high mountain to climb. Very high.

[MChambers]

Kyle Singler had a very, very good college career at Duke. J.J. Redick had a better career at Duke then did Kyle Singler. So did Dawkins and Ferry. Retiring their jerseys and not Singler's is a rational decision based on that criteria.
I'm not trying to start an argument, but just want to say that for my money Kyle had a better Duke career. I realize that by any objective measurement, especially national awards, I'm wrong, but I think Kyle was a more valuable player because of his all-around contributions, especially on defense and the backboards. And he did win a national title, becoming MOP in the process.

There, I'm done. No need to argue with me. I'm just stating my point of view.

[diveonthefloor]

From the Real Madrid schedule:

Match
Real Madrid - Maccabi Electra
Date
Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Time
20:45 (local)
Matchday
8 (Regular Season)

[DUKIE V(A)]

Redick and Shelden's ceremonies were open secrets for months. The only question was timing their ceremonies to their schedules and Duke's schedules.

Duke doesn't have hard-and-fast rules but they have announced guidelines. Singler just doesn't meet those. He was never ACC or national POY, never made first-team All-America, never came close to leading the ACC in a major statistical category.

At the very least, one should have first-team All-America on your resume.

Nolan? He was first-team A-A and ACC POY. But Steve Vacendak, Elton Brand and Chris Carrawell also were ACC POY. Smith's career parallels that of Carrawell. Smith was a reserve his first two seasons, a second-team All-ACC player as a junior and had a marvelous senior season.

Is that enough? These discussions don't take place in a vacuum. Bob Verga was first-team All-ACC three times, second-team All-America as a junior, first-team All-America as a senior. He led the voting for All-ACC in 1967 and narrowly lost ACC POY to Larry Miller. Despite the absence of a shot clock or 3-point shot (Verga had extraordinary range), Verga averaged 22.0 ppg for his career, third best in Duke history. His 26.1 ppg in 1967 led the ACC and has only been bettered in Duke history by Redick, who most emphatically did have a 3-point shot.

Why the dissertation on Verga? His jersey is not retired. So any claim to that distinction must be accompanied by a resume superior to that of Bob Verga. As much as I like Jon Scheyer, Kyle Singler and Nolan Smith--and I like all three very much, as players and people-- I do not believe that to be the case.

It's a high mountain to climb. Very high.

Thanks for your input...Your examples are helpful...Sounds like Verga is very deserving based on what you point out...Great career to say the least...Don't know enough about Vacendak...I wonder the process for Pre-K player jersey retirement...

Brand left after 2 years or he'd have had an outstanding chance of being honored...I think one more injury-free year would have clinched it...Carawell was special player but not on the level of Kyle or Nolan IMO...Based on my own smell test, I would consider Jon or Trajan slightly better candidates than Carawell and they seem a notch below strong consideration for jersey retirement... As you point out, it is a high mountain to climb -- especially if great players who have been so important to Duke like Kyle and Nolan can't ascend to the top. If neither in fact do not earn the honor, it will be interesting that 1991/1992 had Laettner, Hill, and Hurley, 2001 had J Will and Battier, and 2010 had no one. Perhaps fitting for such an under-appreciated team.

[dcdevil2009]

Based on the jersey retirement threads from last season, it seems like a lot of people have changed their minds about Kyle deserving to have his jersey retired because of last season. I'm in this camp, but think that had he foregone his senior year (while meeting the graduation requirement, of course) that he would already be in the rafters. Maybe it's unfair to hold last season against him because he was still a very important player and did a lot of things very well that didn't show up in a box score, but it was also the first year he didn't meet or exceed the lofty expectations (first team AA, preseason NPOY, final four, etc.) people had for him.

[awhom111]

From the Real Madrid schedule:

Match
Real Madrid - Maccabi Electra
Date
Wednesday, December 7, 2011
Time
20:45 (local)
Matchday
8 (Regular Season)

This game will actaully be on Thursday at 2:45 Eastern time and will be available on ESPN3. It would be Kyle's first game, so he may not play or not play that much and Jon is likely to be the last player off the bench. Marty could be in contention for some decent playing time once Rudy Fernandez is not there. This game is a big deal for both teams and should be an interesting one to watch even without the Duke factor.

[Edouble]

Carawell was special player but not on the level of Kyle or Nolan IMO...

Gotta stick up for Carawell a little bit.

I would personally put Cwell head and shoulders above Nolan. He had the same tremendous senior season that Nolan did, but did not have the slow career start that Nolan did. Where Nolan couldn't take over the position that he was recruited for (PG), Carawell was good enough to start at a position that he was most definitely NOT recruited for (center). Cwell was a 4 year starter, even guarding Tim Duncan in a game that Wake was supposed to win. Chris was also one of the (if not THE) faces of Duke's return to glory.

Extra points: Chris cried walking off the floor during his final game.

[BobbyFan]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but just want to say that for my money Kyle had a better Duke career. I realize that by any objective measurement, especially national awards, I'm wrong, but I think Kyle was a more valuable player because of his all-around contributions, especially on defense and the backboards. And he did win a national title, becoming MOP in the process.

There, I'm done. No need to argue with me. I'm just stating my point of view.

I wouldn't go this far, but I definitely would agree that the gap between JJ and Kyle is smaller than it would seem at first glance.

[BobbyFan]

If neither in fact do not earn the honor, it will be interesting that 1991/1992 had Laettner, Hill, and Hurley, 2001 had J Will and Battier, and 2010 had no one. Perhaps fitting for such an under-appreciated team.

It wouldn't reflect that the team was under appreciated. It would just suggest what it is: that the former were HOFers, while the guys on 2010 were not.

Jon/Kyle/Nolan are all players who happened to be just on the outside looking in; put them on the same team and you've got a pretty darn good team.

[Billy Dat]

Just stumbled across this interesting photo:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk9qb5M6f31qzbk4co1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1327079327&Signature=1N7EesuC%2BRfoAZhQs7JliVrg4QM%3D

Obviously, it's Kyle facing MJ. If I am not mistaken, it looks like C-Well in the blue and, maybe, that's Nate James wearing black?

Anyway, based on the smile/Smirk on MJ's face, the same on Kyle's face, one can only imagine what kind of smack MJ was throwing at not only Kyle, but all three of them. I wonder where that shot was taken? I'd guess the summer league but they looked too warmly dressed. Maybe one of MJ's camps?

[tbyers11]

Just stumbled across this interesting photo:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk9qb5M6f31qzbk4co1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1327079327&Signature=1N7EesuC%2BRfoAZhQs7JliVrg4QM%3D

Obviously, it's Kyle facing MJ. If I am not mistaken, it looks like C-Well in the blue and, maybe, that's Nate James wearing black?

Anyway, based on the smile/Smirk on MJ's face, the same on Kyle's face, one can only imagine what kind of smack MJ was throwing at not only Kyle, but all three of them. I wonder where that shot was taken? I'd guess the summer league but they looked too warmly dressed. Maybe one of MJ's camps?

I am pretty sure that picture is from when we played the 1st and 2nd rounds of the NCAA's in Charlotte last year. I remember seeing it then.

[Jderf]

Extra points: Chris cried walking off the floor during his final game.

As did Nolan. Both were great players. Both gave Duke University everything they had.

[Faison1]

I am pretty sure that picture is from when we played the 1st and 2nd rounds of the NCAA's in Charlotte last year. I remember seeing it then.

That photo is from last year's NCAA Tourney, 1st round practice week. There was a corresponding video with it. First, the UNC team came out, and MJ had some tough words for them in regards to getting smoked by Duke in the ACC Tourney.

Then the Duke team came out, and MJ specifically called for Kyle to come over and talk with him. Not sure if it was smack talk....I think more along the lines of, "you really smoked our guys last week."

I think I remember that correctly.

(There was some debate here as to whether MJ was offering improper benefits to the UNC squad when he told them he would get them all "Air Jordan" gear if they played well in the NCAA Tourney.)

[Oriole Way]

Gotta stick up for Carawell a little bit.

I would personally put Cwell head and shoulders above Nolan. He had the same tremendous senior season that Nolan did, but did not have the slow career start that Nolan did. Where Nolan couldn't take over the position that he was recruited for (PG), Carawell was good enough to start at a position that he was most definitely NOT recruited for (center). Cwell was a 4 year starter, even guarding Tim Duncan in a game that Wake was supposed to win. Chris was also one of the (if not THE) faces of Duke's return to glory.

Extra points: Chris cried walking off the floor during his final game.

Really disagree. Carrawell was always a role player until his senior season, even if he was a defensively versatile player and a defensive anchor for his Duke teams, especially early in his career.

Nolan's junior and senior seasons were both better than Carrawell's best season, his senior year. Nolan also obviously won a title. If anything, a better case can be made for Smith being head and shoulders above Carrawell. There's really very little statistical evidence to back up the assertion that Carrawell had a better career or was a better overall player than Smith. I watched Carrawell closely while I was at Duke, and he was always a favorite player of mine, but he had some limitations. He was never a national player of the year candidate, while Smith was a nationally-acclaimed player his senior season and respected by many experts as a rising star during Duke's championship season.

[killerleft]

Chris squeezed out every last drop of potential that he had while at Duke. He had a magical senior season, and squeezed the league's Player of the Year title as well. Being the best interview in the league did not hurt him among the voters, and probably pushed him over the top. Both Kyle and Nolan are better players overall, but for that one year Chris was on a mission.