WBB: Notre Dame 56, Duke 54 in Bahamas

[Verga3]

53-51 Duke women with 2:00 to go.

[Verga3]

Richa Jackson on line with 1:25 left. 54-51.

[Verga3]

Duke hanging tough after a furious ND comeback. Great experience for this young team. Tied with 3 seconds. ND for last shot.

[Jarhead]

Duke hanging tough after a furious ND comeback. Great experience for this young team. Tied with 3 seconds. ND for last shot.OK, so what happened?

[Verga3]

ND at buzzer 56-54 final. No video replay available. Really close...

Ok, ladies. Long season.

[burnspbesq]

Pretty sure I wouldn't want to watch a replay. Duke was up by 16 at the half.

[uh_no]

Pretty sure I wouldn't want to watch a replay. Duke was up by 16 at the half.

duke scored 18 points in the second half.... EIGHTEEN!

This sort of offensive output is becoming quite characteristic of Coach P teams, which is unfortunate because they have great players but haven't been able to turn it into elite teams. Now don't get me wrong, ND is a VERY good team, and we should be proud to have played them to within two, but I still see symptoms of problems which have haunted duke in the past (ie going dead cold on offense)

I think there will be a few losses in the coming months (lots of top 25 teams) but we won't see a team of ND's caliber again until Geno comes to town at the end of january.....

[Verga3]

Pretty sure I wouldn't want to watch a replay. Duke was up by 16 at the half.

To be clear, meant only the replay of the last shot. The announcers felt ND did not get it off in time...and there was no video replay for the officials to review. Hey, it's the Bahamas...we should chill.

IMHO, DWBB will progress and be really good this year. Good experience for this group.

[Verga3]

duke scored 18 points in the second half.... EIGHTEEN!

This sort of offensive output is becoming quite characteristic of Coach P teams, which is unfortunate because they have great players but haven't been able to turn it into elite teams. Now don't get me wrong, ND is a VERY good team, and we should be proud to have played them to within two, but I still see symptoms of problems which have haunted duke in the past (ie going dead cold on offense)

I think there will be a few losses in the coming months (lots of top 25 teams) but we won't see a team of ND's caliber again until Geno comes to town at the end of january.....

Do you have issues with DWBB and Coach P. Sounds like it. Let me know if I am wrong. Your opinion...that's perfectly fine.

My stance is that we have a young and talented group..with a growing team chemistry and a stellar coaching staff. We should have beaten ND. I promise you that Coach P didn't tell her team after the game that they should be proud to have competed with ND so well. What are the "few losses in the coming months" that you forsee? Hope Coach P has scheduled enough teams to challenge and prepare us. That's her job.

Sorry to be so direct, but I don't support the tenor of your post...AT ALL.

[Mike Corey]

It's time for Duke's stellar recruiting to translate to similar on-court success. This is a crucial season for Coach P and her young staff.

[uh_no]

Do you have issues with DWBB and Coach P. Sounds like it. Let me know if I am wrong. Your opinion...that's perfectly fine.

My stance is that we have a young and talented group..with a growing team chemistry and a stellar coaching staff. We should have beaten ND. I promise you that Coach P didn't tell her team after the game that they should be proud to have competed with ND so well. What are the "few losses in the coming months" that you forsee? Hope Coach P has scheduled enough teams to challenge and prepare us. That's her job.

Sorry to be so direct, but I don't support the tenor of your post...AT ALL.

I grew up in Connecticut. My love for duke basketball has not extended to the women's team as it has for the men. While I truly hope they are successful, I feel no particular connection to the team. I therefore offer the most objective analysis I can.

I think that Coach P puts together teams which will win, but which sometimes fail to find ways to score points. Last year they started 20-0 but in 7 of those games, they scored 65 points or fewer (including 46 against xavier). Contrast that with uconn who in the same timespan had 2 games where they scored 65 or fewer (and never fewer than 63). This inability to score exhibited itself tonight when duke put up 18 points against ND in the second half....its clearly not a one-in-a-million bad shooting night, but some systematic problem that exhibits itself over and over.

Unfortunately it appears narcissistic for me to use Uconn as a standard, I don't think that there is any argument that if Duke wants to be known as a truly elite program, they need to compete with teams like uconn. The 4 meetings the two have had under P have led to 25+ point wins by uconn (including 2 by 35+ last year).

Last year Duke ranked 40th in the country in offense. For comparison, the other "elite teams" stanford, baylor, ND, A&M, tennessee, uconn were all in the top 12. Duke was also 40th the year before.

So do i think duke has an offense problem which is keeping it from being "elite"? absolutely.

[Verga3]

It's time for Duke's stellar recruiting to translate to similar on-court success. This is a crucial season for Coach P and her young staff.

Agreed.

Another cryptic post on DWBB? Say what you think. I'm getting an undercurrent here. Tell me I am wrong.

[uh_no]

Agreed.

Another cryptic post on DWBB? Say what you think. I'm getting an undercurrent here. Tell me I am wrong.

I would hope there's no undercurrent. There have been maybe 4 programs in the country with more overall success than duke has had since p arrived

baylor
stanford
connecticut
tennessee

[Verga3]

I grew up in Connecticut. My love for duke basketball has not extended to the women's team as it has for the men. While I truly hope they are successful, I feel no particular connection to the team. I therefore offer the most objective analysis I can.

I think that Coach P puts together teams which will win, but which sometimes fail to find ways to score points. Last year they started 20-0 but in 7 of those games, they scored 65 points or fewer (including 46 against xavier). Contrast that with uconn who in the same timespan had 2 games where they scored 65 or fewer (and never fewer than 63). This inability to score exhibited itself tonight when duke put up 18 points against ND in the second half....its clearly not a one-in-a-million bad shooting night, but some systematic problem that exhibits itself over and over.

Unfortunately it appears narcissistic for me to use Uconn as a standard, I don't think that there is any argument that if Duke wants to be known as a truly elite program, they need to compete with teams like uconn. The 4 meetings the two have had under P have led to 25+ point wins by uconn (including 2 by 35+ last year).

Last year Duke ranked 40th in the country in offense. For comparison, the other "elite teams" stanford, baylor, ND, A&M, tennessee, uconn were all in the top 12. Duke was also 40th the year before.

So do i think duke has an offense problem which is keeping it from being "elite"? absolutely.

Thanks for responding. Just wanted to get your thoughts and perspective. Appreciate you sharing!

[Mike Corey]

I apologize for coming across as cryptic.

I don't think it's mysterious to suggest that the results under Coach P have not matched Coach P's expectations or recruiting. No one wants to win more than she does.

There has been steady improvement from season to season. It's time to get a breakthrough and make it back to the Final Four.

That said, I think a tough early-season loss to an excellent ND team will provide a great lesson for this team and staff as they work toward that goal which is very much within their reach.

And I'm very excited to root for Coach P and her Blue Devils as this team grows and develops.

[Verga3]

I apologize for coming across as cryptic.

I don't think it's mysterious to suggest that the results under Coach P have not matched Coach P's expectations or recruiting. No one wants to win more than she does.

There has been steady improvement from season to season. It's time to get a breakthrough and make it back to the Final Four.

Completely agree. Coach P's expectations have not yet ultimately been met, nor have those of our diehard DWBB supporters. Hope we can get that breakthrough to the Final Four this year. Think we are on a great trajectory and Coach P and her staff are the reason...recruiting and coaching. They deserve our total support!!!

Sorry if I didn't accurately digest your earlier post. Thank you for coming back, Mike.

[Kfanarmy]

Simply put...While the coach has had some really good defenses, the offense quite often, is atrocious. On several occasions last year and the year before, the team seemed to have absolutely no clue what they were doing on offense, completely breaking down. Ultimately you must outscore the opponent to win in BB, but Coach seems to me to have complete disdain for offensive game planning.

[Jim3k]

Well...Coach P has said, and has been roundly criticized for saying: "Offense is overrated."

Given her own perspective, there are Duke fans who believe that she has admitted to a shortcoming which can be corrected. Yet she seems immune to her own perspective. It's not that the offense is terrible; it's that she doesn't take the bull by the horns. When the team goes cold, as all do, we don't see coaching guidance, say play calling, something designed to break the slump. 0-14, seems to warrant something; 18 points in a half seems to warrant something. Where was it? (I dunno since there was no TV broadcast.)

I'm not suggesting that P should be condemned; I'm saying she could be more effective offensively and she knows it. Ultimately, players decide the game. A couple of field goals, a couple of free throws and it's a different outcome. But did P show them a way to break through? If not, it's on her. If so, it's on the team.

As far as the ND game is concerned, it's over; both the team and she wanted to win. Hopefully, they both grow from it.

[tieguy]

Do you have issues with DWBB and Coach P.

I think I (and other posters in this thread) have an issue with P: we think she's a lousy offensive coach. No one has suggested anything more or less than that.


Ultimately, players decide the game.

If that's true (and I think it's a broad statement that is mostly true but not always), we can say that coaching decides seasons- it sets the tone; it chooses what to emphasize; and in the longer run it recruits particular players to fit the style. P's defense is, as we know, if not the top in the country, close to it. And D will win a lot of games; it won't surprise me if some day it wins a title.

But lets be clear, the offense is putrid. It decides seasons, in the sense that we consistently have stagnant offensive games that define our seasons- big, ugly losses to the UConns and Stanfords of the world in the regular season (I believe we're 1-4 against #1 seeds in the last three regular seasons, the one win being against MD), predictable periods of stagnation against other teams (like yesterday), and a predictable stumble before the final four in March.

It's easy enough to say "players decide the game," but when the offense is *consistently* awful across a span of four years, with different players and lineups, that suggests that coaching is also an issue.

It's also important to note that this isn't just anecdote. The data agrees. Sadly, there is no equivalent to kenpom.com for the women's game, but I spent some time last year running offensive efficiency numbers for the top teams, and Duke was consistently the worst, across multiple seasons. And it was particularly bad in big games. For example, last year, UConn held opponents to an average points per possession of around .7. They held us to a little over .5. In other words, we didn't merely play badly on O against UConn, we played worse than their *average* opponent. And that's a common thread in our big games- we make teams with good D look like they have great D.

P and P's staff are just not good offensive coaches, and that is 50% of the game, so it is very hard to agree with the claim that we have a "stellar" coaching staff.



baylor
stanford
connecticut
tennessee

Other teams I'd add to that list: Oklahoma (two FFs); Texas A&M (one title); Notre Dame (one FF, plays UConn tougher than we do). And commentators on the women's game have noticed. Watch a halftime show of one of our games. In last year's tournament game, the commentators openly talked about how they expected us to gack up a big lead because our offense was not very good, and we obliged, by twice having stretches of 5+ minutes without a FG. A few years ago we were viewed as a first-tier team that just hadn't had the inevitable championship breakout. It's clear that they view us as an excellent second-tier team, whose offensive problems keep us from being great. And that's a shame; we should do better.

[Verga3]

Well...Coach P has said, and has been roundly criticized for saying: "Offense is overrated."

Given her own perspective, there are Duke fans who believe that she has admitted to a shortcoming which can be corrected. Yet she seems immune to her own perspective. It's not that the offense is terrible; it's that she doesn't take the bull by the horns. When the team goes cold, as all do, we don't see coaching guidance, say play calling, something designed to break the slump. 0-14, seems to warrant something; 18 points in a half seems to warrant something. Where was it? (I dunno since there was no TV broadcast.)

I'm not suggesting that P should be condemned; I'm saying she could be more effective offensively and she knows it. Ultimately, players decide the game. A couple of field goals, a couple of free throws and it's a different outcome. But did P show them a way to break through? If not, it's on her. If so, it's on the team.

As far as the ND game is concerned, it's over; both the team and she wanted to win. Hopefully, they both grow from it.

Thoughtful post, Jim3k. I do agree with you that in the end, players decide games. Certainly, Coach P understands the importance of targeted coaching guidance and game management. No coach will be perfect in both these areas all of the time. If, after a well-placed time-out, the called play unfolds seamlessly and the player misses the 3 or the lay-up, what are you going to do? You're going to steel yourself and you're going to play D...hard. Coach P is certainly invested in her teams' embracing her defensive philosophy. ND averaged 88 points a game prior to our game. I don't think any of us are close enough to the program to get specific on the offensive or defensive sets/plays that define this or our earlier teams. I do know that we have recruited good kids and good players. We are young this year. Coaches have to coach...kids have to play. Let's watch everyone's development this year.

[Jim3k]

... Certainly, Coach P understands the importance of targeted coaching guidance and game management. No coach will be perfect in both these areas all of the time. ...I don't think any of us are close enough to the program to get specific on the offensive or defensive sets/plays that define this or our earlier teams. I do know that we have recruited good kids and good players. We are young this year. Coaches have to coach...kids have to play.

You say Coach P certainly understands targeted coaching guidance and game management. Some of us, and I specifically include Tieguy who sat with me in Palo Alto two years ago, would be more willing to believe that if we saw a targeted play. We sat through all of that game and never saw a player set a screen; I looked last year, and rarely saw a screen be set. What is it about screens that P doesn't like? When facing a good defense, screens will almost always, when well-executed, free up someone, the driver, the screener, another cutter...someone.

And it doesn't have to be a pick and roll; it could be anything that's pre-planned. I'm just choosing that example since it's so basic. After all, basic plays work. That one's been around since before Iba. All the Duke players did it in high school; it's not foreign to them. I'm sorry I couldn't watch this game, because I'm certain that Muffet McGraw called a few during the ND comeback and I could have pointed them out. ND was cold in the first half, scoring only 18 points themselves. What do you think McGraw was telling her team at half-time and during timeouts? I believe she was providing ways to exploit the Duke defense, seeking an easy bucket. Can we really be sure P did the same in the second half as the tables got turned?

If you or anyone else was there, maybe you or that someone can tell us.

[Verga3]

You say Coach P certainly understands targeted coaching guidance and game management. Some of us, and I specifically include Tieguy who sat with me in Palo Alto two years ago, would be more willing to believe that if we saw a targeted play. We sat through all of that game and never saw a player set a screen; I looked last year, and rarely saw a screen be set. What is it about screens that P doesn't like? When facing a good defense, screens will almost always, when well-executed, free up someone, the driver, the screener, another cutter...someone.

And it doesn't have to be a pick and roll; it could be anything that's pre-planned. I'm just choosing that example since it's so basic. After all, basic plays work. That one's been around since before Iba. All the Duke players did it in high school; it's not foreign to them. I'm sorry I couldn't watch this game, because I'm certain that Muffet McGraw called a few during the ND comeback and I could have pointed them out. ND was cold in the first half, scoring only 18 points themselves. What do you think McGraw was telling her team at half-time and during timeouts? I believe she was providing ways to exploit the Duke defense, seeking an easy bucket. Can we really be sure P did the same in the second half as the tables got turned?

If you or anyone else was there, maybe you or that someone can tell us.

Interesting. Guess we are seeing different games. I've seen them play dozens of games...screens are set in every game. Right, pretty basic. I'm not going to post anything else on this subject. Pretty sure we are not on the same page. Thanks for your perspective.

[Dukehky]

The issue with a few of Coach P's last teams has been the fact that they've really only had one go to option, not only in the last minute, but also the entire game. For the past two seasons, Jas was the only person who could score at a reliable rate, and even then, she forced a lot of shots because she felt that pressure, which admittedly added to the teams offensive woes. Before that, Chante Black was the only real reliable scorer, Abby fell apart and the rest of the squad just didn't have that killer offensive instinct.

Coach P's MO is that she is able to switch defenses on a dime and have her team run those defenses well. While this is tremendously helpful, she does it too often and doesn't really stick with the one that is working all the time. I hope that this will change this season as the team is so young, sticking with one maybe two defenses as opposed to 4 or 5 should be helpful.

This year will be the first year for probably the next three that Duke has a legitimate chance to win it all. The sophomore class is phenomenal as we all know and the two freshman bigs are extraordinary (even Amber Henson on 1 leg is better than most bigs in the country; I doubt she will be back to her full self until next season). We now have both dependable scoring guards in Chelsea Gray and the like, scoring minded wings like Hailey Peters, and a Center who, quite frankly, cannot be stopped in Elizabeth Williams. If Liz gets the ball enough, which is a big question, we'll be very difficult to beat for anyone. One major difference in the men's and women's games is that there are not bigs who demand the ball in nearly as many leagues and therefore, guards do not have the pre-disposition to get the ball in the post. If Liz can demand the rock and get more shots than everyone else, we have a definite chance of winning the NC. The more she gets the ball, the better she's going to get at passing out of double and triple teams (which she will end up demanding if she gets the ball) and our shooters and bomb away. If you can't tell, I think Liz is the best thing since sliced bread, and will be, barring injury, the best Big dwb has ever had (I know, maybe a little early). Give Shay the rock too!!

[tieguy]

Certainly hope you're right, DukeHky; missing 14 consecutive shots against ND does not fill me with hope, though. I guess we'll know more at the end of January.

[Jim3k]

DWHoops' observations:
(http://www.dwhoops.com/1112/1111261-notre-dame-56-duke-54-junkanoo-jam.php)

While the loss certainly is a painful one for Duke, it did show that they could hang with one of the best teams in the nation. The eight player rotation used by coach McCallie was extremely effective on defense, but 5-26 shooting in the second half was painful - even more painful considering that there were twelve layups missed in that period. It should be a good learning experience for a young team, and Duke will have a long flight home and several days to regroup before back-to-back home contests against Purdue and Pittsburgh.

All in all, a big "ouch!"

[Kedsy]

DWHoops' observations:
(http://www.dwhoops.com/1112/1111261-notre-dame-56-duke-54-junkanoo-jam.php)


All in all, a big "ouch!"

I didn't see the game, but if they missed 12 layups down the stretch, that doesn't say to me the coach's offensive system is flawed. Other than maybe she has to better teach her team how to shoot layups.

And, yes, I realize shooting layups has been a problem for this team for some years. What I'm saying is if a possession ends in a layup attempt that usually means the offense got a good shot. 17 out of 26 shots down the stretch were either makes and/or layup attempts. What else can we hope for in a coach's offensive system?

[roywhite]

I didn't see the game, but if they missed 12 layups down the stretch, that doesn't say to me the coach's offensive system is flawed. Other than maybe she has to better teach her team how to shoot layups.

And, yes, I realize shooting layups has been a problem for this team for some years. What I'm saying is if a possession ends in a layup attempt that usually means the offense got a good shot. 17 out of 26 shots down the stretch were either makes and/or layup attempts. What else can we hope for in a coach's offensive system?

For disclosure, I'm a casual fan of women's hoops, and didn't see the ND--Duke game.

However, seems to me that Duke now has a nucleus of outstanding talent in the freshman and sophomore classes (along with some upperclass players) to play with any team in the country, and if not this year, to eventually win that elusive national championship. Elizabeth Williams is a program changing player, I believe.

[Jim3k]

I have no idea about the missed layups against ND, because the game wasn't televised. But during Krystal's tenure in the middle, it seemed P's offense encouraged players to take low percentage shots if they thought they would get near the rim. The plan was for Krystal and any other big, to put the expected miss back--popcorn style. This results in many more missed layups than are planned as a real layup.

Interesting concept, to be sure, but not an efficient offensive scheme.