MBB: Duke 68, Kansas 61 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[hurleyfor3]

In reference to the Chronicle headline after the 1991 championship game.

[sagegrouse]

How did K know to call those two plays for Thornton at the end of the game? Wow!!

sagegrouse

[SCMatt33]

We can get into most of the details later, but I have two prevailing thoughts:

Epic Tyler Thornton is epic.

Epic Mason making his free throws especially at the end is also epic.

[Newton_14]

March Madness in November, damn I'm outa gas!

TYLER THORNTON!!

More tomorrow.. too tired to type!

GO DUKE!!!!!

[zack2014]

How did K know to call those two plays for Thornton at the end of the game? Wow!!

sagegrouse

Im not convinced that last 3 he hit was how the play was supposed to go...Im not going to argue with the results though

[Bluedevil114]

Mason was an absolute monster tonight. He grew up tonight and demanded the ball and played outstanding defense tonight. Thornton some big shots and great defense. We are getting better.

[1 24 90]

What a fantastic, tough win for our guys. Great to see Ryan Kelly get some individual recognition. 7 wins in 12 days. I may have to really look a little harder into getting tickets for OSU on Tuesday. Go Devils!!! Thanks for another great tournament victory.

[millerecu]

Mason you are the man!

[devildeac]

Our House!

[Philsfan]

Maui wowie! What a great game! Tyler to the rescue!

[sagegrouse]

Im not convinced that last 3 he hit was how the play was supposed to go...Im not going to argue with the results though

Oh, really? You probably don't believe in the Easter bunny either. Have a good evening.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, especially to Tyler Thornton and Mason Plumlee!!

sage

[Son of Jarhead]

TYLER FREAKIN THORNTON!!

You said it.... TYLER FREAKIN' THORNTON!!!!:cool:

Way to go, Blue Devils!!!!

[devildeac]

Maui=Cameron West

[kmspeaks]

TT with the big shots late.

Ryan Kelly with another great game.

MASON PLUMLEE!!!!
rebounds, blocks, creating shots for himself and his teammates, and making free throws!!

Hey Wheat, was that the kind of performance you were looking for? Can you come and call for our bigs to do more before every game? :D

[ChrisP]

I love it for Tyler. He gets overlooked, I think. I know he doesn't shoot a lot but he actually seems to be a pretty good shooter - especially at clutch times. Really great game for us to win tonight against a really good Kansas team. Austin ended up with 10 but took a lot of shots to get there. I thought we were a little slow and tired (or something) in the first half and KU certainly didn't quit. Make no mistake, we had to EARN this Championship!

I fear that the possible walk by Curry right before TT's miracle three will be replayed to death on ESPN. Whatever, we won - deal with it!

Anyone else already seeing Kansas in our bracket come March?

[CajunDevil]

Mason - GREAT GAME
Ryan Kelly - amazing

Huge shots by Dawkins and Tyler...Tyler.

Wow

[dukeballboy88]

All I can say is WOW! TT's first 3 was pulled with confidence and it looked good leaving his hand the 2nd 3 was a desperation shot but boy did he stick it. He seems to end up with the ball with the shot clock runing out at least 2 or 3 times a game. I may be exaggerating a little but it seems like when the shot clock hits 3 TT has the ball in his hands.

Ryan and Mason, im very impressed with them.

Great game and its only November. I love watching this team play!

[CDu]

Wow. That was stressful. And fun. Thank you Tyler Thornton for finding a way to throw it in the ocean at the end!

The good:
- One championship complete!
- Mason Plumlee. He played so hard. The offense seems to run much better when he's in there. On defense he really made Robinson work, and won the battle in the second half. And he hit free throws!
- Thornton's 3s and disruptive defense.
- Second half defense. We contested much better in the second half and forced a LOT of turnovers.
- Thomas Robinson. That dude is good.

The not-so-good:
- Dribble penetration allowed in the first half.
- Not really interested in discussing anything else on the heels of a championship!

Great win. Gutty effort. Very happy for the team!

[hurleyfor3]

2% of K's wins have come in the state of Hawaii. We're 18-0, including a Rainbow Classic from many moons ago.

[mgtr]

Maui wowie! What a great game! Tyler to the rescue!

Well stated! Right on target. Maui wowie for sure!

[Bob Green]

My guess were [sic] outscored in the paint 45-15

Sorry! Ryan Kelly, Mason Plumlee and Miles Plumlee combined for 36 points, while Thomas Robinson, Jeff Withey and Justin Wesley combined for 30 points.

[NYBri]

Now THAT was a great game. In November, no less.

This is going to be a fun team. And to keep Tyler in? Great move by K.

Robinson was a monster and good to see Mason take him on.

[-jk]

I love it for Tyler. He gets overlooked, I think. I know he doesn't shoot a lot but he actually seems to be a pretty good shooter - especially at clutch times. Really great game for us to win tonight against a really good Kansas team. Austin ended up with 10 but took a lot of shots to get there. I thought we were a little slow and tired (or something) in the first half and KU certainly didn't quit. Make no mistake, we had to EARN this Championship!

I fear that the possible walk by Curry right before TT's miracle three will be replayed to death on ESPN. Whatever, we won - deal with it!

Anyone else already seeing Kansas in our bracket come March?

For whatever walking he may have done, he was also being banged by two jayjawks along the way.

-jk

[Freethrw33]

Loved seeing him clear space on the post! Nice seeing Duke having muscle in the post. The free throws were nice too :D


Great game Duke!!!!

[Billy Dat]

What a game...a real classic...we win on a prayer...I'll take it.....credit Kansas with playing a winning game in a loss.

Tyler Thornton - gamer! Ryan Kelly MVP! Watch out Sully, Mason's comin to town!!!!!!!!

[Dukeface88]

I am so giddy right now. Tyler Thornton and Dre with the clutch 3's. Mason with the split lip sinking his free throws. I feel I just watched these guys grow up. This feels like the game we'll look back on at the end of the year and say "This is where it started. This is where we became a team."

[Utley]

Just an utter treat of a game - two solid teams playing for their third day in a row and it was an absolute war. I'm getting a jones for this team already - it seems to have a special will.

It's so great to watch players like Kelly and Mason develop into studs. Those lat minute bombs only increased my appreciation for Thornton - he's that special kind of player we seem so good at finding. Great to see him so happy - but still poised - in the post game interview.

A great way to start what I hope is a Happy Thanksgiving for all.

[The Slamming Butcher]

What an early season treat this tournament has been...great effort by this young team! The sky is the limit if they can improve on the defensive end....

[Son of Mojo]

For what some might call a walk, I call a jump stop.......it's what it looked like from over here ;) :D . Played with guts tonight on tired legs--very proud of the team tonight.

[sporthenry]

For whatever walking he may have done, he was also being banged by two jayjawks along the way.

-jk

And I really didn't see any walking. It looked very awkward but it isn't Europe so you don't have to put the ball down as early when you start your dribble and then he came to a jump stop. Unless you say he was dragging his pivot or something along those lines, I really didn't see anything.

[wilko]

This is going to be a fun team. And to keep Tyler in? Great move by K.

Yes it was..... AND I loved the reaction from Rivers on the bench. He was in the moment cheering for his dude.
I remember when I voted TT the MOM in one of the previous games this year... K likes him for D and if he can do THAT once in a while... Well good golly

[CDu]

For whatever walking he may have done, he was also being banged by two jayjawks along the way.

-jk

And I don't think he walked anyway. At least not anymore than everyone does on a pass catch, and they never call that. I definitely don't think he walked after he started his dribble - just an awkward but legal jump stomp.

Doesn't matter. Haters gonna hate, and they'll find something to focus on no matter what. All that matters is that we got the win.

[CajunDevil]

In the second half with Tyler in and no real penetration by Duke guards, Ryan started catching at the elbow making quick moves. This was referenced by Bilas, however, I think it was K's way of using Ryan Kelly to initiate the offense. It paid dividends as Ryan found Dre for the three at the end by dribbling across the lane, in addition to attracting Mason's defender so Mason could get some key offensive rebounds late. Since it was hard for Curry to get into the lane, this was an effective way to start our offense.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Wow! Just freakin' wow! Great shots by Tyler, plus his crunch-time minutes with AR on the bench with foul trouble. Great overall play by Mason ans Ryan. Love the growth we're already showing!

[UrinalCake]

Mason and Kelly were huge, the refs were letting them play inside and our guys hung tough. Ryan was fouled at least five times without getting the call. Kansas defended our guards well and we were able to respond with inside scoring, exactly what we needed to see. I think Robinson was getting tired towards the end of the game, he wasn't attacking as much but credit Mason for a couple huge blocks on him too.

TT's threes are going to get most of the attention but I thought the key to the game was the start of the second half when they made a run and seemed like they were going to run away with it but we were able to keep the score reasonably close and then come back.

I think it's time to rename the Maui Invitational to the ACC Tournament.

[CDu]

I don't think we use our bigs enough to be elite. (sarcasm)

[NYBri]

Irony. Rivers doesn't get that charge called against him, Tyler more than likely wouldn't have been in there for the dramatics.

[Jeff0r3]

They should rename the Island "Duke". Cause we seriously OWN that town!!! Props to Ryan Kelly.. WITHOUT a doubt MVP.. Prayers answered thanks to TT!!! What a game... I'm lovin it!! Loved the end of the tournament comments by Coach K! Even he got a lil out of character!!!

[Olympic Fan]

The best thing about winning a big one like that is visiting our rival fan bases and enjoying their pain.

Take a quick trip to Inside Carolina or to Rupp's Rafters. At IC there is a "Go Kansas" thread with 156 comments ... it's one of about a half-dozen anti-Duke threads posted tonight. There's already a "Go Ohio State -- Beat Duke" thread. It's sweet. On the Kentucky site, the top five threads on their board were I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing and moaning about Duke -- they're blaming the officiating (even though Kansas shot more free throws) and reminding themselves that they blew out Kansas a litle over a week ago, so it wasn't a big deal that Duke edged them.

I can't tell you how much I savor their pain -- it's like Eric Cartman licking Scott Tenerrman's tears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM

The tears of the Duke haters is sweeter than the finest champagne.

[mapei]

And I don't think he walked anyway. At least not anymore than everyone does on a pass catch, and they never call that. I definitely don't think he walked after he started his dribble - just an awkward but legal jump stomp.

That's the way I saw it, too. I watched his feet closely on the replays.

I was really down on our bigs - I don't really think of Ryan as "big," more "tall" - for much of the game. Our guards and Ryan kept us in it while KS owned the paint . . . until they didn't anymore. Mason stepped up HUGE. Miles wasn't much of a factor but we really didn't need him to be tonight the way Ryan and the guards were playing. Four or five amazing, improbable plays in a row at the end were the difference in a very tight game. Tyler, wow.

The whole tournament was wildly entertaining.

[ikiru36]

2% of K's wins have come in the state of Hawaii. We're 18-0, including a Rainbow Classic from many moons ago.

Well it is one of 50 States so 2% sounds about right :o)

Wtg Blue Devils!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dcdrumsinc]

Ryan Kelly being aggressive on offense, particularly when he slashes to the basket, is soo important to this year's team. It opens up shooters and provides offensive rebounding opportunities for Mason.

I really enjoy watching this year's team play offensively moreso than past years teams, because it seems Duke doesn't rely on 2 guys to do most of the scoring and shooting. There is a balance on offense and because of it, we are a lot less predictable.

Loved Austin River's body language on the bench even when he wasn't playing. TT deserves it and more.

[taiw93]

If Mason and Ryan continue to play that tough on the interior, this is going to be a very good season (especially if Mason can be that clutch with his FT shooting, though I don't have my fingers crossed for that one...). Our scoring balance is phenomenal, and we have a number of players that have what Bill Raftery would probably refer to as "onions." What a fun team to watch!

[fc3]

What a great game. I was more relaxed and enjoyed watching this much more than watching a game in which the devils tried to hang on to a 10-15 point lead with 5 minutes left. I was thinking with 2 minutes left that I would be happy to have seen this battle between 2 elite 8 caliber teams regardless of the final outcome, but Tyler Thornton was the GRAVY!

[CDu]

That's the way I saw it, too. I watched his feet closely on the replays.

I was really down on our bigs - I don't really think of Ryan as "big," more "tall" - for much of the game. Our guards and Ryan kept us in it while KS owned the paint . . . until they didn't anymore. Mason stepped up HUGE. Miles wasn't much of a factor but we really didn't need him to be tonight the way Ryan and the guards were playing. Four or five amazing, improbable plays in a row at the end were the difference in a very tight game. Tyler, wow.

The whole tournament was wildly entertaining.

It's really hard to describe how awesome Mason was in the last ten minutes. He held Thomas Robinson to 2 points and 1 rebound and 1 block. Mason countered with 6 points, 7 rebounds, and 2 blocks. He took Robinson out of the game and put his will on the game instead.

This was a team effort. Lots of hustle plays and big shots by other guys. But what a final stretch for Mason.

[DUKIE V(A)]

I was thinking/hoping that Rivers getting to rest a bit with his four fouls was going to be the key to victory. I figured he would be the freshest guy out there when he got back in after the under 4 TV timeout. I thought he'd be able to get to the rack against exhausted defenders and hit his foul shots.

Really proud of TT for making Rivers resting the key with his D, his decision making, and his clutch shooting.

WHAT A GAME! NCAA intensity in November. Both teams showed a lot of heart. Well earned victory.

Oh and thanks to our much maligned "Big Man" coach. Looks like Mason and Ryan have developed plenty.

[brumby041]

How did K know to call those two plays for Thornton at the end of the game? Wow!!

sagegrouse

I get your humor - but it was K that had Tyler IN THE GAME at that time...

-Brumby

[stixof96]

everybody has been worried about post play....well, plumlee played robinson tonight about as well as robinson can be played.......robinson is the real deal.......and plumlee looked him right in the eye......plumlee may have turned the corner tonight.....kelly was off the chart........can't wait to get at sullinger tuesday night.......i hope mason becomes a monster in that game.....he has the ability.....

[xinspiration]

What a fantastic, tough win for our guys. Great to see Ryan Kelly get some individual recognition. 7 wins in 12 days. I may have to really look a little harder into getting tickets for OSU on Tuesday. Go Devils!!! Thanks for another great tournament victory.

in case you haven't seen, tickets on the terrace corner (upper bowl level) are selling starting at 70 bucks
http://www.stubhub.com/ohio-state-basketball-tickets/ohio-state-vs-duke-11-29-2011-1082214/

[delfrio]

Fantastic game... Tyler was great of course, but Dawkins' 3 was big, and Kelly's and Mason's games were huge.

As for Austin on the bench at the end, I doubt it was just foul trouble. It seemed to be a combination of needing more defense and hedging against the possibility that Austin would be unnecessarily trying to take over the game (driving and losing). I had no trouble with him watching from there for a game. It's great he was into it, and maybe there was a bit of a message sent (?).

[LSanders]

Mason was an absolute monster tonight. He grew up tonight and demanded the ball and played outstanding defense tonight.

A---MEN!!

K was thrilled for TT, but h said Mas was THE MAN!!

Sweet!!

[Bob Green]

........can't wait to get at sullinger tuesday night.......

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but caution you to be careful what you wish for.

[CDu]

Not to be lost. If Kansas can get their guard play straightened out, they'll be a force. Robinson can obviously ball, but Withey was surprisingly good too.

Unfortunately, the rest of their team after Taylor (who struggled a lot tonight) isn't very good.

[stixof96]

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but caution you to be careful what you wish for.

Sullinger is a man....no question there.....but, Mason has more in the tank yet......

[CDu]

5 guys attempted at least 2 3pt attempts. All 5 of them hit at least 2 3pt attempts. Among them, only Kelly's percentage was below 40%. When you have that many guys shooting at that high a percentage, it makes life difficult for the opponent. That is compounded when you add a guy averaging 1.7pps and getting a double-double in paint. Such balance.

[Kedsy]

The not-so-good:
- Dribble penetration allowed in the first half.

Well, we did force 11 turnovers on Kansas' PG, so the fact that he penetrated a few times doesn't bother me so much.

Also, for those of you expecting K to use a long bench in big games, we only had 6 guys with more than 8 minutes tonight and only 7 guys with more than 1 minute -- in the third game in three days and 7th game in 12 days. We won't be going 9 deep (or probably even 8 deep) in close games after January 1.

[NYBri]

Ryan reminded me of Kyle tonight. Driving, slashing, crashing...nice to see.

[snowdenscold]

Sorry Gary, but this quote from the in-game thread is just too good to pass up (in retrospect, of course) ;)


Tyler isn't who we want shooting 3's for us at this point in the game. He has to go to the bench. I'd rather see Cook if it's between those two.

To be fair, you did say "at this point in the game", lol.

[feldspar]

For whatever walking he may have done, he was also being banged by two jayjawks along the way.

-jk

Two words. Jump stop. That play was legal all the way. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

That was a game we're all going to remember for a long time, for so many reasons.

[BleedsP287]

Great to see Tyler make those shots. Though the announcers implied he was deep off the bench when he was solidly the sixth man. Give the guy some credit, he has been a solid contributor all year.

Mason is looking much improved over last year, and getting better every game. We'll be very very good in March.

Our rotation sure did narrow to 7 in a hurry, not that we didn't expect it. Actually six except for 9 minutes from Cook/Miles.

[InSpades]

I'll admit. The 1st thought that went through my head when TT took his 1st of those 2 3s was "what the heck is he doing?!". Sorry for doubting you TT, never again :). Just seemed way early in the shot clock for your worst offensive player on the court to be taking a 3.

The 2nd was just amazing. Took too long getting into the offense there I think but just wow. What a clutch shot. It's like those shots you shoot in the driveway when you are a little kid and dreaming that you win a big game on a ridiculous shot (only this was real!). Great start to the year by the Blue Devils!

[-bdbd]

Wow - what an incredible game. March in November in Maui!! BOTH of those teams have to be considered very legitimate Final Four threats going forward.


Well, we did force 11 turnovers on Kansas' PG, so the fact that he penetrated a few times doesn't bother me so much.

Also, for those of you expecting K to use a long bench in big games, we only had 6 guys with more than 8 minutes tonight and only 7 guys with more than 1 minute -- in the third game in three days and 7th game in 12 days. We won't be going 9 deep (or probably even 8 deep) in close games after January 1.

Well, to be fair though, he DID play a lot of guys in the two prior games, as Bilas pointed out Tuesday, so that (arguably) he could play the shorter bench in the finals. The announcers kept pointing to how little Self was subbing, and wondering if KU would "have enough in the tank down the stretch..." Um, question answered! (Yes, as always the point is arguable...) :rolleyes:



Join Date:Sep 2008 Originally Posted by Bluedevil114
Mason was an absolute monster tonight. He grew up tonight and demanded the ball and played outstanding defense tonight.
A---MEN!!

I've been saying for days to anybody who will listen that Mason is not getting appreciated enough, and that he's having a much bigger impact than a simple glance at the box score will show. In fact, he really IS our post play. Without him we certainly wouldn't have won tonight, and very likely wouldn't have made it to the finals in the first place!


LSanders :
Member
K was thrilled for TT, but h said Mas was THE MAN!!

Sweet!!

Honestly, that was probably the biggest thrill of the night for me -- seeing how emotionally invested K was, and how sincerely giddy and happy he was for Tyler (and Mason) after the game in the Bilas interview. That is a very positive indication for our retaining this tremendous resource on our bench for years to come... Wahoo!

[Kfanarmy]

What a thrill to watch. ESPN's game flow chart shows how close it was throughout:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=313272305

[ACCBBallFan]

One lineup was +10 amd another was -6 with the rest of the combos in +2 to -1 range.

Occurs Minutes Duke KU +/- Line-Up

4 12.9 23 24 (1) SethAustin-Dre-Mason-Ryan

3 08.8 20 10 10 Seth--Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 04.3 08 06 +2 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles

2 04.2 06 04 +2 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 03.3 04 04 00 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 02.0 00 06 (6) Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles

1 01.6 01 02 (1) Seth--Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler

1 01.6 02 00 +2 Seth-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn

1 01.3 04 05 (1) Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

1 00.2 00 00 00 Seth--Austin-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

16 40.0 68 61 07 Total

Three guys were common to both extremes and the other 2 flank each end of the spectrum by player:

Duke KU +/- +/min -/min +/- /min Duke Player

64 50 14 1.7 1.4 0.4 Mason

37 25 12 1.8 1.2 0.6 Tyler

60 52 +8 1.7 1.5 0.2 Seth

59 53 +6 1.7 1.6 0.1 Ryan

60 57 +3 1.8 1.7 0.1 Dre
02 00 +2 1.3 0 1.3 Quinn

45 49 (4) 1.6 1.7 (0.1) Austin

13 19 (6) 1.4 2.1 (0.7) Miles

35 13 11 1.9 Total
07

[feldspar]

Tomorrow, when you're sitting around the table asking grandpa to pass the gravy, inevitably you're going to be asked what you thought of the refs' no-call on Curry's travel that handed Duke the game. Or some buffoon Carolina grad cousin of yours is going to corner you at the pumpkin pie and make some smart remark about there being 8 Duke players out on the floor on that play.

When that happens, just repeat a simple series of numbers and letter: 4-44-1.a. Tell them to go look it up, then re-watch the play.

4-44-1.a

Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving or
dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously
on both feet (no pivot foot).

I don't want to hear anyone complaining about Duke being handed the game on that play. What Curry did was perfectly legal. Yes, it was a slower jump stop than you're used to seeing, but it was a legal play nonetheless. Just because it looks funny doesn't mean it's not legal.

[nmduke2001]

The atmosphere in the gym was crazy. They clearly oversold, so people were standing in the corners and in the isles. It sort of felt like a game in Cameron. The air completely went out of the Kansas side when Tyler hit that second three.

In the bus on the way home, most of the Kansas people were pleasantly surprised by how well their team played this week. They also hate Carolina (due to Roy leaving) and wished us luck when we play them. Very classy people.

[juise]

I was going to repost a comment from the in-game thread where one poster said that Duke was making Kansas' defense look good because KU was daring Duke's bigs to beat them and Duke's bigs weren't answering the call. But it turns out that the poster in question is on holiday, so I'll leave that alone.

As we know, it turns out that Ryan and Mason were the leading scorers. How rare is it that Duke is lead in scoring by two bigs?! I looked through the box scores from this season, plus the last two seasons and only found two instances where Duke's two leading scorers were forwards. These both occurred last year when Kyle and Ryan lead the scoring (one Ryan was tied for second). As we know, Kyle played a wing forward role and was really not a "big" last year. I would be interested to know when the leading scorers were actually the two biggest players in Duke's starting line-up. I wouldn't be surprised if it went back to Dunleavy-Boozer in 2001-02, when Dunleavy was the pseudo-4. Maybe there was a Deng-Shelden game in 2003-04... I don't have the will to look that up tonight.

Anyway, it was a very impressive performance from the front court. Ryan and Mason also missed a bunch of shot from point-blank range, so their numbers could have been even more impressive. It was nice to see that Duke was the team missing the team missing from close-in tonight and was still able to find a way to win.

[diesel]

I had a family emergency to deal with last night and couldn't watch the game. Is there anywhere I can see a replay today while the rest of you are stuffing yourself with turkey and football or shopping?

[TruBlu]

I had a family emergency to deal with last night and couldn't watch the game. Is there anywhere I can see a replay today while the rest of you are stuffing yourself with turkey and football or shopping?

ESPN3.

Hope all's well with your family emergency!

[roywhite]

What a Thanksgiving gift from Tyler, Ryan, Mason, and the rest. Great job, guys!

I was really impressed with the defense Kansas played, especially against our perimeter players. Seth and Andre had a hard time getting good looks. Some terrific defense by Mason down the stretch. What a versatile performance by Ryan Kelly, very deserving of Tournament MVP. It was great to see the joy from Coach K; he's rarely that demonstrative, but clearly likes what he sees with this team.

Safe trip home and a great Thanksgiving to the Blue Devil crew, including the fans, who were out-numbered a bit by KU, but were terrific.

[MartyClark]

This game was a lot of fun.3 games in 3 nights, life is good.

I like this team. It will be interesting to see how K plays the bench when the schedule lightens up.

[Saratoga2]

A great tournament for Duke, winning against three very good teams capped off by last night's absolute classic that rates up there with the best of the Duke wins I have seen over the years. Kansas is loaded with talent and size and is a proud program that is as well coached as they come. I saw thier game plan as conceived to limit the damage done by our guards while probably believing they could outplay our big men. On the other hand, I saw Duke's plan as conceived to put pressure on the Kansas point and to play the passing lanes and make it hard to get the ball to the inside.

The Kansas plan seemed to work on our guards who were limited to way fewer points than in our previous games. Kansas initially was holding Seth and Andre as they made their cuts, but the refs were having that. Nevertheless, open shots were very hard to find. Seth's reaction was to play within himself and take what was available. He is a very smart player and didn't force things. Andre also didn't for much of the game, but got a little frustrated late and tried to jack up a couple of tough shots. Kansas also did a good job of containing Austin. He still was able to make some good moves and put up about 10.

During the first half, Kansas certainly good the advantage on the foul line going 12 of 14 while Duke was 2 for 2. I think the refs missed at least two shooting fouls for Ryan and one for Austin, but those were the breaks.

Our big men seemed almost transfixed with determination to win this game. In my view, Mason played his best game ever for Duke. He made strong offensive moves and was successful on a number of those and his foul shooting was pretty darn good. That is only part of the story as he matched the physicality of Kansas and was in there blocking and altering shots, rebounding and making sound passes. Wonderful game by Mason. They there was Kelly's effort. He was everywhere doing good things on offense and his defense was very good. Taking charges, blocking and altering shots and rebounding. Our bigs finally got theirs into trouble late in the game. Perhaps a little downside was Miles play. He came into the game with Duke up but we quickly saw Kansas go on a 10 to 2 run. While that was not necessarily attributable to Miles, coach K saw enough and didn't go back to him later in the game.

In the second half, with about 15 and 1/2 minutes left to play, you could see the Duke's defense tighten and from then on, there were no easy shots given up. Give Kansas a lot of credit as we too didn't get easy shots and the lead swayed back and forth. They lost two of their big men due to foul trouble late which gave Duke a little added advantage.

Toward the very end, Mason made his four foul shots, Andre finally was open for a three and the most unlikely thing happened with Tyler open and hitting from the corner and then shortly after throwing up a prayer from the end line with 2 seconds on the clock which essentially clinched the game. Coach K says Tyler is the best defender on the team, but Seth, Andre and even Austin played solid defense during the key second half period where Duke asserted itself.

Looking ahead at the schedule, we have a very tough OSU on the 29th followed by a number of easier games. In those I would expect Quinn, Josh,Michael, Alex and possibly even Marshall to get some playing time to ready them for the ACC season.

Great tournament and game and it was fitting that Ryan got the tournament award for MVP.

I wrote this without reading what others said but will now go back and read the string.

[jwm]

One lineup was +10 amd another was -6 with the rest of the combos in +2 to -1 range.

Occurs Minutes Duke KU +/- Line-Up

4 12.9 23 24 (1) SethAustin-Dre-Mason-Ryan

3 08.8 20 10 10 Seth--Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 04.3 08 06 +2 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles

2 04.2 06 04 +2 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 03.3 04 04 00 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 02.0 00 06 (6) Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles

1 01.6 01 02 (1) Seth--Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler

1 01.6 02 00 +2 Seth-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn

1 01.3 04 05 (1) Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

1 00.2 00 00 00 Seth--Austin-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

16 40.0 68 61 07 Total

Three guys were common to both extremes and the other 2 flank each end of the spectrum by player:

Duke KU +/- +/min -/min +/- /min Duke Player

64 50 14 1.7 1.4 0.4 Mason

37 25 12 1.8 1.2 0.6 Tyler

60 52 +8 1.7 1.5 0.2 Seth

59 53 +6 1.7 1.6 0.1 Ryan

60 57 +3 1.8 1.7 0.1 Dre
02 00 +2 1.3 0 1.3 Quinn

45 49 (4) 1.6 1.7 (0.1) Austin

13 19 (6) 1.4 2.1 (0.7) Miles

35 13 11 1.9 Total
07

Good stuff. Thanks for your analysis. Go Duke.

[dukeman28428]

Our team showed a lot of heart in the Kansas win and I thought they grew up a lot.

Felt like a final four game to me and I loved the teamwork.

GO DUKE

[77devil]

Two words. Jump stop. That play was legal all the way. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Not even our favorite arbiter, Jay Bilas? "There's no question. There might have been two walks there. The referees just missed them." That's our Jay, never in doubt.

What a great breakout game for Mason? He was really gassed down the stretch but found a reserve in the tank. The clock delay before Tyler's free throws was fortuitous this time for giving our guys a breather even if not desirable for Tyler.

Clearly Duke will be heading to Columbus with a lot of confidence.

[SMO]

Whoever said it's going to be a long season may have been right. I hope it doesn't end until April :-)

[hq2]

Our big men seemed almost transfixed with determination to win this game. In my view, Mason played his best game ever for Duke. He made strong offensive moves and was successful on a number of those and his foul shooting was pretty darn good. That is only part of the story as he matched the physicality of Kansas and was in there blocking and altering shots, rebounding and making sound passes. Wonderful game by Mason.

This says it all. See Bold letters, hands down. Folks, this was the Mason Plumlee we knew was somewhere around. We've caught glimpses of him the past
two years, but haven't seen him show up for a full game. What was more impressive was how he got better as the game went on, outplaying both Withey
and Robinson down the stretch. And how about that coast to coast layup? He should be filling the lane more on the break; could get some good slams
that way. To play like this against quality defense is enormous. Zoeller and Hanson should take note; there will not be a repeat of last year's game
at Carolina.

And as for the game, what can you say? Didn't really feel like a win, more of a lucky dice roll. I mean, come on, Tyler hits a moon ball from beyond
the arc with his legs spread wide apart! That was how we planned it? I'm sure the Kansas folks are still rolling their eyes. But, hey, it went in!

RK, big game too. What versatile play, and also against quality bigs. He is looking more and more like an all conference player. Can't remember
any Duke player ever improve this much in 2 years. Wow, is he getting good!

[Orange&BlackSheep]

The Kansas plan seemed to work on our guards who were limited to way fewer points than in our previous games.

It seems evident that this will be a game plan the team will be facing more than a few times this year. Very encouraging to see the team come up with an answer. One has to think that games like this will mean two things for Mason:

(1) He will be able to build on the experience of successfully figuring out how to overcome good interior defense.
(2) He will look down at his jersey next year and see some NBA team :0

The other person that will be incredibly necessary to fight a defense determined to pressure Duke's guards out to 22 ft is Austin Rivers. As he figures out more and more how to translate his ability to use the bounce to break down a defense to the college game, it will be increasingly difficult to pressure Duke out that far.

It really feels to me that by the time tourney time comes around, this team will be able to give all comers a run for their money.

Side question:

In which of these players do you have confidence taking a big shot from the perimeter in crunch time?

Dawkins (check)
Thornton (check)
Curry (check)
Rivers (check)
Kelly (check)

How many teams can say that?

[El_Diablo]

My guess were outscored in the paint 45-15


Sorry! Ryan Kelly, Mason Plumlee and Miles Plumlee combined for 36 points, while Thomas Robinson, Jeff Withey and Justin Wesley combined for 30 points.

That's not the whole story though, since some of the bigs' points weren't in the paint (such as Kelly's 3's and Robinson's FTs), and guards were scoring in the paint too. Here are the official stats:

Points in the Paint
Kansas - 28
Duke - 20

The ease with which KU was getting to the rim at some points was disconcerting, and it started to get ugly at the beginning of the second half when they started with 8 points in 2 minutes with a dunk-layup-layup-layup combo, and then another dunk about two minutes later. But we really turned up the interior D, and they started settling for jumpers, so we kept it pretty close in the paint despite having Miles be a non-factor for this game.

[grossbus]

"I appreciate your enthusiasm, but caution you to be careful what you wish for."

correct, self wished for Duke and got us.

[kmspeaks]

What a game...a real classic...we win on a prayer...I'll take it.....credit Kansas with playing a winning game in a loss.




And as for the game, what can you say? Didn't really feel like a win, more of a lucky dice roll. I mean, come on, Tyler hits a moon ball from beyond
the arc with his legs spread wide apart! That was how we planned it? I'm sure the Kansas folks are still rolling their eyes. But, hey, it went in!


There is no doubt the shot Tyler took was an absolute prayer but I think you're really cheapening the effort by the team tonight. They earned this win. We had a 2 point lead at the time Tyler took the shot. Obviously there's no way to know how it would have all played out had he missed but Duke still would have had a good chance to win the game. Saying we won on a prayer or lucky dice roll makes it seem like Thornton threw up a Jeff Capel runner at the buzzer and we stole a win we didn't really deserve.

[Bob Green]

That's not the whole story though, since some of the bigs' points weren't in the paint (such as Kelly's 3's and Robinson's FTs), and guards were scoring in the paint too. Here are the official stats:

Points in the Paint
Kansas - 28
Duke - 20



Thanks for the "Points in the Paint" numbers. They help me see the big picture. While free throws may not officially count as points in the paint, they are definitely points earned in the paint when it is a big man converting on the line after he was fouled in the low post. From my perspective, all of Mason Plumlee's points at the free throw line were points earned in the paint.

[theAlaskanBear]

Man what a game! It was so draining I didn't have the energy to post. I don't have anything new to add to the discussion...just wanted to say this is one of those "growth" games where you really see players become a better and more confident team.

Oh and Thornton hit a couple of great threes (including a prayer), but Dawkins hit a critical shot at the end there too -- he is developing a penchant for big threes this season!

Kansas looked a lot quicker and stronger than Duke for much of the game, but I wonder how much of that is due to Duke playing 7 games in 12 days. Thats two more than Kansas in the same timeframe.

[hq2]

There is no doubt the shot Tyler took was an absolute prayer but I think you're really cheapening the effort by the team tonight. They earned this win. We had a 2 point lead at the time Tyler took the shot. Obviously there's no way to know how it would have all played out had he missed but Duke still would have had a good chance to win the game. Saying we won on a prayer or lucky dice roll makes it seem like Thornton threw up a Jeff Capel runner at the buzzer and we stole a win we didn't really deserve.

It was an even game that could have gone either way. Both teams played pretty well, and actually, I think they both deserved to win. I mean, Kansas
played some pretty good defense, especially on the perimeter. Down the stretch, though, I agree we played better. Mason and RK seemed to have reserve gas in their tanks, and Robinson and Withey looked like they didn't. But, still, to win it on a prayer moonball....O.K., we'll take it. A W is a W.

[feldspar]

Isn't it about time to rename it Lahaina Indoor Stadium (Cameron Pacific)?

[OldPhiKap]

Isn't it about time to rename it Lahaina Indoor Stadium (Cameron Pacific)?

I cracked up when the fans started chanting "Our House!" at the end of the game. Classic.

[feldspar]

I cracked up when the fans started chanting "Our House!" at the end of the game. Classic.

Yes, that was a great touch. The fans did a nice job bringing a few of those touches to the arena during the game. Well done.


I have seen enough to know the bigs are reacting inside and not creating plays.

Well, after last night's game I think Wheat can finally admit that this is was a bit premature.

[davekay1971]

Isn't it about time to rename it Lahaina Indoor Stadium (Cameron Pacific)?

Or at least fix the spelling of Lzyzhaina...

[diesel]

I was interested in the reaction of many Kansas fans that they lost this game because of the refs and Coach K's baleful influence on the latter. Is this what happens when your point guard commits 11 TOs? Or is this more whining by the 95% who can't afford refs like we can? Or should we now simply change the term "Terping" to "Jayhawking"?

[davekay1971]

I was interested in the reaction of many Kansas fans that they lost this game because of the refs and Coach K's baleful influence on the latter. Is this what happens when your point guard commits 11 TOs? Or is this more whining by the 95% who can't afford refs like we can? Or should we now simply change the term "Terping" to "Jayhawking"?

Keep it simple. Since we hear the same whining from just about every fanbase we beat, that makes Duke the common factor. Call it "Duking"

[OldPhiKap]

Keep it simple. Since we hear the same whining from just about every fanbase we beat, that makes Duke the common factor. Call it "Duking"

I just call it "jealousy"

[Olympic Fan]

2% of K's wins have come in the state of Hawaii. We're 18-0, including a Rainbow Classic from many moons ago.

Actually, it's more than that.

K has taken three teams to the Rainbow Classic (1983-84, 1989-90 and 1994-95). In 94-95 Duke lost to SMU, but beat Pacific and Navy. In 89-90 Duke beat Drake, Cincinnati and Hawaii to win the title. In 94-95, Duke lost to Iowa, then beat Boston U and Georgia Tech (in a rare non-ACC game). That's 7-2.

In addition, Duke played in something called the BYU-Thanksgiving Classic in Laie, Hawaii in 1986-87. Duke beat BYU-Hawaii in the first round and lost to Illinois in the title game.

That means that K actually has 23 of his 907 (and Kounting) wins in Hawaii. But the record is not perfect except in Maui -- its 23-3 on the islands.

That's a little better than 2 1/2 percent of his wins.

[CBDUKE]

I totally disagree with those that are saying we won this game on a "prayer" or a "lucky shot". At the time Tyler hit that shot we had a 2 point lead and Kansas never scored again. Plus, we played a tough and hardfought game to be in the position we were at that time. I believe this was a well earned and not a lucky win for us.

[watzone]

The season to date has been so awesome! What a nice Thanksgiving present the team gave to us fans! We caught up to Seth Curry last evening before the team went out to celebrate and eat and here is that video interview with Curry - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/11/bdn-exclusive-seth-curry-talks-of-the-big-win-over-kansas-and-maui-experience/

We also chatted with Austin Rivers who said the team really came together as a unit in Maui and I must agree. http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/11/bdn-exclusive-one-on-one-with-austin-rivers-post-maui-champions/

As fans, we couldn't have asked for anymore from this seasons team. Happy Thanksgiving!

[dukedoc]

We didn't win on a prayer but that shot by Tyler definitely took the wind out of the Jayhawks so in that sense it definitely helped us. On a related note it sounds like Self has publicly been complaining that Seth wasnt called for a travel on that pass to Tyler.

[uh_no]

We didn't win on a prayer but that shot by Tyler definitely took the wind out of the Jayhawks so in that sense it definitely helped us. On a related note it sounds like Self has publicly been complaining that Seth wasnt called for a travel on that pass to Tyler.

Don't hear him complaining about the atrocious charge call on austin...

[juise]

Don't hear him complaining about the atrocious charge call on austin...

The late charge on Mason wasn't a whole lot better.

[devildeac]

I was interested in the reaction of many Kansas fans that they lost this game because of the refs and Coach K's baleful influence on the latter. Is this what happens when your point guard commits 11 TOs? Or is this more whining by the 95% who can't afford refs like we can? Or should we now simply change the term "Terping" to "Jayhawking"?

They must have missed the 1st half difference in FT (14-2). Or, perhaps they listened to Bilas too closely in his claims there were "two walks" just before TT's 2nd three. Or, maybe both:rolleyes:.

BTW, I like the "Jayhawking."

[OldPhiKap]

On a related note it sounds like Self has publicly been complaining that Seth wasnt called for a travel on that pass to Tyler.

link?

(Not doubting, just want to see what he said)

[Newton_14]

The late charge on Mason wasn't a whole lot better.

Agree. That was a flop. Robinson is built like a tank. It would take a lot more than a butt to the stomach to knock that dude down. He sold it well though.

[juise]

link?

(Not doubting, just want to see what he said)

I did a Google news search for "bill self travel" in the last 24 hours and this article is all I could find (http://cjonline.com/sports/2011-11-23/duke-edges-ku-maui-thriller). It says:


The shot prompted a visceral reaction from the bleachers, half of the crowd celebrating a certain victory and the other half screaming for a traveling call that never came.

But Self said:

“I don’t even know if he saw the rim when he shot it, but it was a heck of a shot,” KU coach Bill Self said. “It was a great shot. It was the ballgame.”

Doesn't sound like sour grapes to me.

[greybeard]

Tomorrow, when you're sitting around the table asking grandpa to pass the gravy, inevitably you're going to be asked what you thought of the refs' no-call on Curry's travel that handed Duke the game. Or some buffoon Carolina grad cousin of yours is going to corner you at the pumpkin pie and make some smart remark about there being 8 Duke players out on the floor on that play.

When that happens, just repeat a simple series of numbers and letter: 4-44-1.a. Tell them to go look it up, then re-watch the play.

4-44-1.a

Section 44. Jump Stop
Art. 1. A jump stop is executed when a player catches the ball while moving or
dribbling with:
a. One foot on the playing court, jumps off that foot and lands simultaneously
on both feet (no pivot foot).

I don't want to hear anyone complaining about Duke being handed the game on that play. What Curry did was perfectly legal. Yes, it was a slower jump stop than you're used to seeing, but it was a legal play nonetheless. Just because it looks funny doesn't mean it's not legal.

Th video will show definitively, but having watched in numerous times in the game's immediate wake, that appears to me NOT to be what Curry did. I think what made his stop look so awkwardly walk like was how he caught the ball and landed not with both feet hitting the court simultaneously but rather in a one-two. The reason that I saw no walk in it is when the catch was made. The catch was made when he was in the air, allowing him a one-two stop--when the catch is made when one foot is on the ground and the player then jumps, if the player lands one-two, it is the same as starting from a dead stop, stepping forard and around your defender and lifting your pivot foot before you let the balll go for a first dribble, which, although it often goes ncalled, is clearly a walk. Curry made an awkward catch during a sequene in which it seemed he was intent on keeping his dribble, found nowhereelevated and caught, which allowed him a one-two stop. Could be wrong about all or parts of this, both what I think I saw and what the rules permit.

[CajunDevil]

It was an even game that could have gone either way. Both teams played pretty well, and actually, I think they both deserved to win. I mean, Kansas
played some pretty good defense, especially on the perimeter. Down the stretch, though, I agree we played better. Mason and RK seemed to have reserve gas in their tanks, and Robinson and Withey looked like they didn't. But, still, to win it on a prayer moonball....O.K., we'll take it. A W is a W.


No offense, but this is bush league. We didn't win it on a prayer moonball. In fact, the "winning points" were from TT's first three, not the second three. Granted, that the second three changed the Jayhawks' strategy, but we were still ahead by 2 regardless...

We deserved the win, as would have Kansas if they had won. An incredible game NOT won on a prayer.

[devildeac]

Agree. That was a flop. Robinson is built like a tank. It would take a lot more than a butt to the stomach to knock that dude down. He sold it well though.

Looked like something directly from the curriculum of the hansbro school of flopping. An Oscar-worthy nominee.

[feldspar]

Agree. That was a flop. Robinson is built like a tank. It would take a lot more than a butt to the stomach to knock that dude down. He sold it well though.

Go back and look at the replay. When you flop, your arms usually go back or out to your sides, because you're anticipating going to the floor, and you're looking to brace yourself. Robinson's arms go straight up in the air, exactly the type of reaction you'd see when a player's getting pushed backwards with that kind of force. It was a good call, as was the offensive foul call on Taylor where he pushed off that Kansas fans are similarly complaining about.

Greybeard, the "one-two" step you refer to is indeed a travel, but I looked at the replay about 50 times, and it's not completely definitive that that's what happened. So, in real time, I don't see any way you can call it.

[feldspar]

Doesn't sound like sour grapes to me.

How about this?


That 3-pointer, however, should have never counted, coach Bill Self said. “[Ryan Kelly] walked before he passed it to Thorton,” Self said. “It should have been a two-point game going our way.”

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/rapid-reports/post/16221001

Not sure why they attributed the travel to Kelly and not Curry.

[Newton_14]

Go back and look at the replay. When you flop, your arms usually go back or out to your sides, because you're anticipating going to the floor, and you're looking to brace yourself. Robinson's arms go straight up in the air, exactly the type of reaction you'd see when a player's getting pushed backwards with that kind of force. It was a good call, as was the offensive foul call on Taylor where he pushed off that Kansas fans are similarly complaining about.

Greybeard, the "one-two" step you refer to is indeed a travel, but I looked at the replay about 50 times, and it's not completely definitive that that's what happened. So, in real time, I don't see any way you can call it.

I have not seen the replay yet, so my opinion is based solely on the live play from the mid-court camera. I would love to see a replay from the baseline. Live I thought Mason definitely hit him hard with his rear, but my first impression was a flop. Could be wrong though.

Robinson is just so big and strong, I feel it would take a shoulder to the chest to knock him down like that. But you have made me curious enough to go search for a replay.

[MCFinARL]

I love it for Tyler. He gets overlooked, I think. I know he doesn't shoot a lot but he actually seems to be a pretty good shooter - especially at clutch times. Really great game for us to win tonight against a really good Kansas team. Austin ended up with 10 but took a lot of shots to get there. I thought we were a little slow and tired (or something) in the first half and KU certainly didn't quit. Make no mistake, we had to EARN this Championship!

I fear that the possible walk by Curry right before TT's miracle three will be replayed to death on ESPN. Whatever, we won - deal with it!

Anyone else already seeing Kansas in our bracket come March?

The good news is duke was already in the lead when that happened--so there's no easy way to claim it determined the outcome of the game.

[BluDvlsN1]

Many outstanding comments,much agreement from here!!
Mason...man on fire ..awesome clutch performance
Ryan...all around super tournament,and great performance in a
Tightly contested ,physical game!
Seth.. Just gotta love his efficiency..really solid
Austin...growing by leaps and bounds, this game will really motivate his development,IMO
Andre... Just stroking it so great
Tyler.. Really good hard working young man.. When he took his very 1st ill advised three
Just before Austin came in.. I cringed for him and us... The other 2 ..pure redemption..love it!
Miles.. Love his inside efforts.. Rooting for his confidence to kick in!!
Quinn.. Really like his game a ton..think he will be a consistent solid contributor before its said and done!!
Coach K... Jumping up and down on the bench and his post game elation for MP2 and Tyler...priceless

Really enjoying this teams development,as most of us are!!!

If your a scouting opponent, creates a whole host of defensive issues!!!

What Im most proud of is:
In recent games where we had an end of game let down....
Yesterday..we played 40 minutes and finished with a really fine Kansas opponent
With a solid game plan and defensive performance!!! HUGE!!!

What a way to enjoy Thankgiving!!!

[juise]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/rapid-reports/post/16221001

Not sure why they attributed the travel to Kelly and not Curry.

Good find. Note that Ryan Kelly is in brackets, so Ryan's name was inserted by the writer in place of a pronoun (probably "he"), which self may not have intended to attribute to Ryan.

[NSDukeFan]

No offense, but this is bush league. We didn't win it on a prayer moonball. In fact, the "winning points" were from TT's first three, not the second three. Granted, that the second three changed the Jayhawks' strategy, but we were still ahead by 2 regardless...

We deserved the win, as would have Kansas if they had won. An incredible game NOT won on a prayer.
I agree completely with the above comments.

I am very pleasantly surprised that this team has managed to go through the gauntlet that has been their early season schedule without a blemish. They have already given me a lot of joy and excitement.

I have been fairly confident that their was enough offensive firepower on this talented team that they could be pretty good offensively. Losing Nolan and Kyle, two outstanding perimeter defenders has had me a bit concerned about how the team would defend on the perimeter. (I have been fairly confident that Miles, Mason and Ryan would do a solid job inside.) I was very pleased with the defensive focus and intensity starting in the second half after Kansas had the run to start the half. From that point on, I didn't feel like Taylor or Johnson penetrated as easily and that there was a lot of pressure on the perimeter players at every pass. Of course, things were even more challenging for Kansas once they got the ball inside where the wall of Mason was waiting.

I am very happy that this team has a championship and that every guy in that 7 man rotation has to know that they know how to win big games against good teams at this level. That is exciting going forward.

What a great start to the season and I am excited for the team to take on Sullinger, Craft and Buford to get another great test early in the season. This season is looking very promising.

[dukedoc]

link?

(Not doubting, just want to see what he said)

This is what I was referring to (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/rapid-reports/post/16221001), sorry for not linking initially. I presume it's an accurate since there are quotation marks and it is CBS, but who knows given they bracket in Kelly rather than Curry.

[dukedoc]

One thing I will say about Kansas, despite consternation amongst their fans and apparently their coach regarding the "miracle moment" from last night, is that in general they seem classier than several other blue blood fan bases that shall remain nameless (although i suppose that's not saying much). Although I usually try to avoid the comments sections under Duke related articles on espn, etc. I did find this bit of fresh air from a KU fan under an ESPN article:

andybartell34
"I hear KU fans complaining about the walk at the end of the game which, by the way, was not nearly as bad as the walk in the first half that no one talks about, Rivers took a step and two hops. Look, everyone knows refs miss a couple calls and personally, i think all four of the charges (Rivers on T-Rob, Plumlee on Withey, Taylor on Kelly, and Withey on Kelly) were all bad calls but that's the way the game goes. I'm a KU fan and wished the outcome was different but the reality is, if we play better, we win. Don't let the human element play a role in the outcome, instead, limit our turnovers or play better defense or box out. [You] can't blame the refs for not playing fundamental basketball and controlling what you personally can control."

Exactly. Whether or not we agree on split second calls made by mere human beings, our goal as a team should be to be so fundamentally sound and out-play the other team by enough of a margin that those human factors become irrelevant in the final outcome. If/when we lose and it happens to involve a controversial call, I hope we'll take on K's "next play" motto and move on. If we lose because of a ref's errant call it'll be unfortunate but we shouldn't cry about it as if we lost something that was already ours.

[J4Kop99]

Don't really know what else to say. I'm pretty sure every conceivable topic has been covered...

It was a tremendous all-around game that I will remember for a long time. Mason played like a man and Kelly is one of the smartest, craftiest, most talented Dukies in a long time. The crazy thing about Kelly last night was that his two best moves ended up with missed lay-ups/shots. He is fun to watch.

Also, anyone notice when kelly held up the 3 fingers (thumb, pointer, middle) a la Dirk, after he hit that three in the 2nd half? Thought that was funny, especially with all of the recent Kelly-Bird and Kelly-Nowitzki conversations.

[greybeard]

1. As I saw the game, Kansas seemed to have physical control of the court at the outset, that is, until Mr. Rivers went on a riff that stood people up, and I'm not just talking about no Duke fans. The paradigm I mentioned in an earlier post that I learned was the key to one on one play is that you catch at a spot from which you can make the shot if given at a high percentage, at a high enough percentage that you WILL take it if given, actually, if the defender does not commit substantially from taking the shot away (one can do this to varying degrees, how close you get to the offensive player, where your weight is, the extent to which you are preparing to reach in to disrupt the path to bringing the ball up to shooting position, etc). Well, Mr. Rivers began his offensive, "you only think you're the baddest dudes on this court," display, with taking and making two or three such shots, two on back to back possessions, which is point one in making yourself unguardable. The thing was, the remarkable thing was, is that those threes came from ungodly distances, and that is no exageration. Then he put on a display of breaking down a defense comprising players who almost across the board were a more physical bunch than Duke deployed, with just some moves that were daring, down at ridiculous speed with some very, very quick feet and ability to vary the height of the dribble, the size and direction of steps, and the nature of finish.

K can talk all he wants how Mason was really "a man" out there "tonight," and how that Duke doesn['t win without that--both of which were undoubtedly true, but I think that the case can be made that the guy who marked the territory as Duke's last night, at least let Kansas and the rest of the free world who could only watch with wonder was Doc's kid. The skinny guy, with the flying elbow shot, with a daringness one has rarely seen since the days of Pistol Pete, a freshman, dropped da Hawks' collective jaw and let them know that the night would be anything but easy. MOM in my view.

2. The three most significant plays imo, all of which involved Ryan. The first two were actually the same play repeated. Ryan had it on the left wing, I think slightly inside the 3-line, Mason was posted low. Once there was a Dukie closer to the baseline than Ryan, maybe both. At the least because Ryan held the ball a tad longer than might be normal as he seemed to contemplate his options, the third guy cleared to the other side of the court. In one instance Ryan, without really looking at Mason, let his teammate know--he was going to get it, and it was up to Mason to say where. Mason fought some but not to get deeper; rather to maneuver the defender into overcommitting to stopping the catch towards the middle of the lane. Both times, as soon as the overcommit came, Ryan flipped a low bounce pass, side/underarmish delivery, outside Mason's left knee, but with Mason's weight solidly on his right foot, not with a rightward momentum (the direction his defender was still in momentum terms committed to). Mason, spread and low, had no choice but to reach lower still with his left had and catch on the short hop). Oh, did I mention that the pass was delivered with sidespin in a direction that, had it gone straight off the bounce would have missed Mason's hand by a good 2 feet. Mason caught it with a natural choice to continue in a leftward dropstep direction to the rim, which if he felt the defender madly scrambling to recover and stop, Mason could opt to forgo, and chose instead to start towards the middle with, depending which foot was more available because of weight distribution (the leg with the greater amount of weight is not the one that is easiest to lift, it requires the most body adjustment to lift) he initiates with a side/drop step right or pivots on the right and sweeps the left around with the left arm, hand and ball following in an arc.

This, in my opinion, is the type of PASS and RECEPTION that must be more prevelant if Duke is to reach it's potential, if Mason, Miles, and Kelly are to create a sense of dominion over the game that bespeaks of real choice, that shows not simply intuitive talent (often too frequently what players do are taken as that) but rather as the product of real intelligence. By real intelligence I mean a conscious choice made on the fly as events unfold, that says (a) this is how I put the defender in what in checkers we used to refer to as "a pair of pants" (the king between two of an oponent's pieces, giving the oponent the choice of which of the two it wants to save), and (b) then which of several ways the job is to be finished. The real beauty of the intelligence displayed on such pass/receptions is that both players see and create the same opportunity. Ryan was not waiting because he couldn't decide whether to shoot, go left, go right, or pass, probably to Mason--Ryan waited because he knew that a pair of pants moment was getting ready to happen and if Mason and the other Dukie sensed it, well heck, it would, Ryan with that little spin pass that made Mason make a one handed-lo-reaching catch that would have made my main mean Gil Hodges, Roy Campanella, or Jackie Robinson (when he played third, damn the guy could and did play everywhere, didn't he) proud.

DEAD HORSE: The ball needs to go inside early and often, most of the time coming back out in the same unexciting fashion as side to side passes go back and forth (except whenever it goes inside the entire defense must at least PAUSE AND TAKE NOTICE), and then these plays will occur much more frequently.

3. The last play came on a shot from the right side about 12 feet, maybe less, on a Ryan bank shot off the dribble. So what is so notworthy about this? Here's where I wish I could go to the video tape. Ryan was occupying the ball on the bounce with his back to the defender moving at least once I believe towards his left and then back towards his right, using I think a small and slow step slide footwork that had an even cadence. Didn't matter how fast his defender was, he was doing the foxtrot here, that is, if he wanted to do his job which was to try to guard Ryan. Now all the while Ryan is taking in information, how close to a trigger finger reaction his defender is, where Ryan feels in his body, can see in his mind's eye, the shot, or attack coming from, and than Ryan goes right and towards the rim a step, stabs to a stop with his left foot, allows his right to swing around a bit wider than he'd like for a shot but as he is completing the turn lets his eyebrows lift, the defender ever so slightly begins to organize for up, Ryan pauses and then brings his right foot in closer and slightly in front of his left, bringing his entire right side along as one piece as he brings the ball up to shooting with is right hand joined by his left as the turn is nearly complete and the ball is several inches below shouolder height. At this point Ryan's right shoulder is smack dab in front of or maybe even brushing the other guy's sternum. Ryan brings the ball up to a high release point around his forehead or above, the defender has had no way to get a hand anywhere near the ball, but could if Ryran shot at the rim. He didn't. He leaned back a tad with a relatively rigid but sightly arched backward spine, and shot it high off the glace. The only thing the defender could do with either hand was pick his nose. That soft, high arching bank shot has a tremendous margin for error, especially as compared to straight in, and gquit often is an "and one" play. Most importantly, the game, the entire game, from start to finish, is on Ryan's terms, at Ryan's pace, in the direction that Ryan chooses, and the only thing that a faster, higher jumping, stronger defender can do with those assets is to stick them in his pocket and when, on Ryan's command, he pulls one or more of them out, it is only to his disadvantage. Can we say Earl Monroe ladies and gentleman, or Dirk, or yes, Larry? Maybe even a little Greybeard. (there are of course rifts off the ending, ie, sometimes you can feel the defender so intent on staying down, staying ready for the true committ, that you simply outquick them, stop and elevate for a swish shot as if you were G or somebody).

Final comment. I think it is genius, as one poster noted, for K to use Ryan on the left wing to dribble penetrate across the lane and I get why Ryan chooses or has been told to really tar toward the opposite side of the rim with lengthening and powerful final two or three strides--I completely get it and I ain't mad at it neither. I would, however, prefer to see him slow down as he approaches the middle, and play the type game described above, with a natural, old school hook shot finish off the boardwith his right hand as one option, a turn back left hook off the board as a second option, step through jump or scoop shots as other options, and the above described options as yet additional options. I would give Ryan some quiet time during each practice and his own basket to play imagination scenerarios in his head while moving at slow speed and picking an option that matches with how an imagined defender presents, and executing against his phantom defender. Everything is done as if at full speed, from tension in your toes, tension in your belly, arms, head position, etc, footwork, how he brings the ball up, so that he makes it.

Final, Final Comment: Inside the lane, on scoop, hook or jump shot finishes, I believe and was taught by some real old school experts to use the backboard, and not shoot straight in and that GOES for when the shot is delivered from the MIDDLE OF THE LANE--much more room for error (see film of Bill Russsell,lefty and righty hooks--you can shoot it pretty darn hard without it being too hard, and you will never front or back rim short little hooks (as Mason often does). I would also do away with that jump hook shot and opt in favor of a traditional hook shot--if you can't get the latter off, I'd create something else, take a bigger step and create the traditional hook or simply give the ball up. Exception--the baseline jump hook is remarkably repeatable because, I believe, that backboard provides spot on direction and distance coordinates that are relaxing and reassuring to the shooter that produces a touch because the body is not unduly stressed as it often is when the body is unduly stressed when that shot is taken from other spots. Hooking from the shot side (the long side would be the side of the basket corresponding to the arm one is shooting with), which is where the jump hook is most often taken, is an extraordinary low percentage shot. If I were coaching, I'd all but ban it.

Final, final, fianl--it is not enough to differentiate your eyes from your head and therefore not have to tilt your head way up to see the basket. Onje must also learn to have a supple spine, a spine that is not chronically arched in the lumbar region with the shoulders thrown back, but an easily and softly arch in the other direction, become concave, with each vertebrae free to move independently from those next to it. Doing tons of core muscle work makes that type of suppleness very difficult. Ryan and especially Miles would benefit greatly by learning how to organize so that the vertebrae are free. I think that Miles' mishaps near the rim are largely a product of rigidity in his spine, difficulty chain reaction transfers of energy through the spine, permitting smooth flexions, extensions, and, twisting movements. His pelvis, my guess, is also pretty locked up. Dude should see one of my peeps--no, not a rabbi, a Feldenkrais Practitioner, three to five functional integration lessons in say 10 days, he could possibly learn things that are unimaginable to him right now). Do I have someone in Durham to recommend. Hey, send me a plane ticket, put me up in a hotel, and you got your practitioner. I'd be more than happy to travel with the team, as well.

It's me, Grey, a recently-and-forever-retired as an attorney Feldenkrais practitioner who has got some visceral understanding of what playing it with ease and effectiveness takes. And, when you guys finish laughing, what's Thanksgiving without a good laugh, ask yourself this--how many teams have Yoga teachers working with their teams and what the heck does struggling to do "The Triangle" or the "Downward or Upper Facing Dogs" have to do with improving how a player might chose to function on the court.

Thanks for listening, I am grateful for this place, to those who create it, that includes of course all who post and read. Have a great day.

[sporthenry]

So lets get to the travel call. Again, it looked awkward so people just assume a walk. The jump stop was indeed legal unless you say one of his feet hit before the other which is akin to saying in baseball a tie goes to the runner, when in reality there is no such thing as a tie in either case. So I guess you can call every jump stop a travel but in this case, he stopped his dribble jumped off one foot and landed on both feet at the same time. See Section 70 Art. 3.a.3:

A player who catches the ball while moving or dribbling may stop and establish a pivot foot as follows, when both feet are off the playing court and the player lands On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both; neither foot can be the pivot foot.

He passed it right away so there was no concern about establishing the pivot foot.

I think the travel issue was more concerned with the start of the dribble. It looked awkward b/c of how big his jabs steps were and his long extension to dribble but Section 70 Art. 4. b

After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.

Again, I think this is pretty clear that the ball is easily released before the pivot foot hits the ground and it might even hit before the pivot foot is even lifted.

Therefore, the only thing that they could say is a walk would be his left foot during the initial move when it goes from on his toes to sideways, it appears that he might have shuffled this foot a little but the NCAA and USA basketball is fairly lenient with it and at best it is a questionable call that could probably be called 10 times a game and not an egregious missed call.

[hurleyfor3]

Actually, it's more than that.

K has taken three teams to the Rainbow Classic (1983-84, 1989-90 and 1994-95). In 94-95 Duke lost to SMU, but beat Pacific and Navy. In 89-90 Duke beat Drake, Cincinnati and Hawaii to win the title. In 94-95, Duke lost to Iowa, then beat Boston U and Georgia Tech (in a rare non-ACC game). That's 7-2.

In addition, Duke played in something called the BYU-Thanksgiving Classic in Laie, Hawaii in 1986-87. Duke beat BYU-Hawaii in the first round and lost to Illinois in the title game.

That means that K actually has 23 of his 907 (and Kounting) wins in Hawaii. But the record is not perfect except in Maui -- its 23-3 on the islands.

That's a little better than 2 1/2 percent of his wins.

This actually disappoints me, because I was trying to figure out which states K is undefeated in (at least while at Duke), and thought Hawaii was one of them. :(

[Wheat/"/"/"]

That was a good, tough win last night for Duke.

The first ten minutes of the game it looked to be more of the same we had seen from Duke in the Michigan game. Outside shots, many forced, and no inside looks.

Midway through it seemed that coach K realized that the perimeter D was good from Kansas, much better than Michigan, and the shots weren't falling, so he had Duke make a concerted effort to feed the post before halftime.(Which is an argument I have been making all along they will have to do more of , and get better at, to be as good as I think they can be.)

Kelly had a nice post up move for a score. (His only one true post move I recall for the game, however) and then stayed outside, face up, for the most part. I'd think he needs to do more of that to go along with his wing game, it would make him just that much tougher, and he's been tough.

Mason had several strong post moves in that stretch of the first half that resulted in scores. He didn't look all that smooth making them, (or the ones he missed), but he showed his strength and athleticism to get them off with good looks at the basket. He hit a little jump hook that I really liked. It's a shot he can get anytime he wants with a good entry pass and some confidence to take. He can do so much more than he shows sometimes, the kid is really strong and quick for 6'11". His size and strength is impacting the game when he's on the floor in other areas way more than post scoring, his rebounding in particular can be consistently counted on.

Kansas showed teams how to beat Duke last night, stay with the shooters and go inside on offense, but they didn't execute. There were way too many unforced TO's and poor situational timing from Kansas on defensive fouls. They have no-one to blame but themselves, and maybe Thornton :)

Knowing how to beat a good team and doing it are different matters. Coach K's players always have a killer instinct, and if you make mistakes they will generally make you pay for them. This is a confident bunch and fearless shooting the ball. Get tired and slow recovering on a jumper at games end, and a team that is not afraid to shoot it can make you pay, like Dawkins and Thornton did late.

It's a good Duke team that has a lot of room to get even better. That's a good place to be early in the season.

[Jeff Frosh]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I am still in Maui. I attended all three games. What a fantastic experience. I have not had a chance to re-watch any of the games, but here are a few observations.

Duke fans outnumbered Tennessee fans by about 90%-10%, and Michigan fans by about 70%-30%. Kansas travelled ridiculously well. They were everywhere all week. It's hard to say, but I would estimate it was about 60% Kansas, 40% Duke. But we were extremely loud. It was amazing last night. The gym holds 2,600. I don't know if it's true, but some of the locals told me that the civic center isn't even used for high school games. The high school games are played at a bigger gym. It seems that it is mainly used for local park and recs league games. Anyway, last night, it was like being at two home games in one. It was incredibly loud on every play, as either the Duke fans or the Kansas fans went crazy on each play. I have gone to many games at neutral sites, but nothing comes close to the intensity of last night's game.

It was very physical in the paint. 4 big bodies battling on every play. I feel very good about our bigs being able to hold their own against any front line. Mason and Ryan were very good at holding their ground and playing tough defense without fouling. Obviously our perimeter play was great, including Tyler's heroics.

The other great thing is that all of the locals love Duke. Nobody gives a #$*& about Carolina. If anyone living on the mainland (especially in NC) gets tired of dealing with all of the Tarhole fans and has the opportunity to relocate, consider moving to Maui. It is pro-Duke paradise.

Not looking forward to my long journey home, but boy was it worth it. An experience I will never forget.

[_Gary]

Some idiot said this during the game in the pre/in-game thread:


Tyler isn't who we want shooting 3's for us at this point in the game. He has to go to the bench. I'd rather see Cook if it's between those two.

I hope that fool is happy with himself. :p

Great, great win for Duke! I'm so pleased with what the team has done thus far. We beat a very good Kansas team last night when I really thought we were set for our first 'L' of the season!


Go Duke!!!

[Jarhead]

Can someone with the requisite skills please give greybeard a couple or more sporks http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.pnghttp://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.pnghttp://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.png? His earlier post in this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26668-MBB-Duke-68-Kansas-61-Post-Game-Thread&p=530892#post530892) captured my imagination as if I were actually watching Austin Rivers. Then when grey got to Ryan Kelly, all I needed was some audio to really believe I was watching Ryan live, in slow motion, right in front of me. I couldn't help my self. I went to the tape, or DVR, as it were, and went forward until I found a sequence that resembled what grey was describing. I think I found it, and greybeard's words seemed to match it perfectly, in slow motion. Coach's recruiting magic becomes evident when someone puts down such magic prose documenting how he molds these young men and brings out their inherent intelligence.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/02cents.gif

[OldPhiKap]

Can someone with the requisite skills please give greybeard a couple or more sporks http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.pnghttp://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.pnghttp://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/reputation/reputation_pos.png? His earlier post in this thread (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26668-MBB-Duke-68-Kansas-61-Post-Game-Thread&p=530892#post530892) captured my imagination as if I were actually watching Austin Rivers. Then when grey got to Ryan Kelly, all I needed was some audio to really believe I was watching Ryan live, in slow motion, right in front of me. I couldn't help my self. I went to the tape, or DVR, as it were, and went forward until I found a sequence that resembled what grey was describing. I think I found it, and greybeard's words seemed to match it perfectly, in slow motion. Coach's recruiting magic becomes evident when someone puts down such magic prose documenting how he molds these young men and brings out their inherent intelligence.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/02cents.gif

Done to the extent I can help. Because it is an outstanding post, although (as I told him) it will take some time to digest.

Just like the turkey I've been eating for five straight hours now.

Excellent summation.

[sagegrouse]

I thought it might have been and checked the play-by-play for the last 5:03. The last nine possessions for KU produced two buckets (five points), five misses and two TOs.

In the same interval, Duke's eight possessions produced three buckets (for eight points), two two-shot FTs (four points), two misses, and one TO (offensive foul).

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

I thought it might have been and checked the play-by-play for the last 5:03. The last nine possessions for KU produced two buckets (five points), five misses and two TOs.

In the same interval, Duke's eight possessions produced three buckets (for eight points), two two-shot FTs (four points), two misses, and one TO (offensive foul).

sagegrouse

Yup, I mentioned this in the game thread at the time. Kansas is not very deep, and three games in three days is tough on everyone.

Which is what makes Mason's plays even more incredible.

[Newton_14]

One of the things that impressed me the most in this game, is how Duke kept bouncing back after Kansas mini-runs. They had every opportunity to succumb to the defensive pressure during stretches where Kansas got it to a 5 or 6 point lead, and allow the game to get out of hand. But each and every time they would find a way to get stops and then battle back to tie it or take the lead. I thought they showed great mental toughness throughout the game. A lesser team (mentally) would have likely gotten blown out. With about 15:00 or so left, I finally decided that this was going to be one of those down to the wire games with neither team capable of pulling away.

The Kansas defense was incredibly impressive. If there is a team out there that can defend the perimeter any better, I don't want to play them. I know they are not deep, but with that defense, and the inside play of the two bigs, Kansas will be a tough out in March. Put a good PG on that team and move Taylor to the SG and they would really hurt teams. Taylor scored a lot of points last night but his turnovers were a killer.

Our defense on the perimeter was pretty bad in the first half, and I could not tell if fatigue played a role or not. The guys stepped it up though, in the 2nd half. It wasn't perfect, but we did guard better and made Kansas work harder for buckets.

The mental toughness Duke showed last night was incredible given the makeup of this team, and where they are in their development. That is a really good sign imo, and the experience from last night will be invaluable when conference play starts and they find themselves in a tough situation.

A big congratulations to this team for bringing home a championship right out of the gate!

[jamesfrommaiden]

Put your post-game thoughts here.


WOW!!! What a game... I really don't if there is much you can say about that performance. I guess I hate it for you if you didn't see it. TT you are the man! Mason brought it. BIG TIME! I know UNC has been preordained (hope i spelled it right) to win it all, and Duke doesn't need to bother trying to contest for the ACC crown, but I am pretty enthusiastic about this team. I don't think it, I know we are as good as anybody in the country. A national title is in our reach. Like it or not Carolina. You all know there are just certain teams in certain years that are just special. I get that feeling this year. As talented as Duke was last year, with and without Kyrie, I just didn't feel it. I love these kids. Looking forward to going to Columbus.
LETS GO DUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[killerleft]

Was Kansas out of gas at the end?


I thought it might have been and checked the play-by-play for the last 5:03. The last nine possessions for KU produced two buckets (five points), five misses and two TOs.

In the same interval, Duke's eight possessions produced three buckets (for eight points), two two-shot FTs (four points), two misses, and one TO (offensive foul).

sagegrouse

AND the most blatant screw-up the refs made all night, way more important than any individual call against either team, was when it took them THREE FREAKING MINUTES to finally decide that all they had to do was remove the "1" from the 19:39 to get the clock back on track!! Huge advantage gained by Kansas' bench-challenged unit. Duke had the fresher players. Bill Self had to be laughing to himself the whole time.

[CDu]

Yup, I mentioned this in the game thread at the time. Kansas is not very deep, and three games in three days is tough on everyone.

Which is what makes Mason's plays even more incredible.

If they did run out of gas (and it certainly appeared that way - at least relative to our guys), it wasn't a depth in numbers issue. They actually used more bench minutes than we did during the tournament. The depth issue may have been a "quality depth" issue. They relied more heavily on 3 players to carry them offensively, whereas we went 4-5 deep (4 deep in the first two and then we added Mason's scoring back in the championship game).

[snowdenscold]

Was Kansas out of gas at the end?



AND the most blatant screw-up the refs made all night, way more important than any individual call against either team, was when it took them THREE FREAKING MINUTES to finally decide that all they had to do was remove the "1" from the 19:39 to get the clock back on track!! Huge advantage gained by Kansas' bench-challenged unit. Duke had the fresher players. Bill Self had to be laughing to himself the whole time.

I had forgotten about that but good point. I still wonder why it took them so long to fix something that was so obvious (this seems to be a common occurrence with clock malfunctions - taking forever for an easy fix).

[killerleft]

If they did run out of gas (and it certainly appeared that way - at least relative to our guys), it wasn't a depth in numbers issue. They actually used more bench minutes than we did during the tournament. The depth issue may have been a "quality depth" issue. They relied more heavily on 3 players to carry them offensively, whereas we went 4-5 deep (4 deep in the first two and then we added Mason's scoring back in the championship game).

When will I learn to take everything those TV guys say with a grain of salt?:o Everybody knows Coach K has our guys in better shape than even the fantastic Navy Seals, though:D

[AlaskanAssassin]

So on Jay Bilas' recap of the Maui Invitational, he had this to say:


On the decisive play of the Duke-Kansas final, Seth Curry did not travel, he travelled twice. The officials simply missed it.



Say whaaaat..

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7279728&_slug_=ncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7279728%26_slug_ %3dncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui

[devildeac]

So on Jay Bilas' recap of the Maui Invitational, he had this to say:




Say whaaaat..

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7279728&_slug_=ncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7279728%26_slug_ %3dncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui


Somebody pleeeaaassse send Jay an interpretation of the rules we have been discussing in this thread.

[Bluedevil114]

So on Jay Bilas' recap of the Maui Invitational, he had this to say:





Say whaaaat..

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7279728&_slug_=ncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7279728%26_slug_ %3dncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui

Well..........two negatives do equal a positive.

[Newton_14]

Was Kansas out of gas at the end?



AND the most blatant screw-up the refs made all night, way more important than any individual call against either team, was when it took them THREE FREAKING MINUTES to finally decide that all they had to do was remove the "1" from the 19:39 to get the clock back on track!! Huge advantage gained by Kansas' bench-challenged unit. Duke had the fresher players. Bill Self had to be laughing to himself the whole time.


I had forgotten about that but good point. I still wonder why it took them so long to fix something that was so obvious (this seems to be a common occurrence with clock malfunctions - taking forever for an easy fix).

I am pretty sure the clock issue is not what took so long. Tyler and a Kansas player bumped into each other as Tyler was walking to the line from the baseline. They went nose to nose for few seconds and were pulled apart. I think the refs were checking the replay to see if there was a shove when they separated. (There wasn't). The problem was the announcers were doing so much yakking, they missed that and only talked about the clock.

The clock thing was likely figured out quickly.

[killerleft]

I am pretty sure the clock issue is not what took so long. Tyler and a Kansas player bumped into each other as Tyler was walking to the line from the baseline. They went nose to nose for few seconds and were pulled apart. I think the refs were checking the replay to see if there was a shove when they separated. (There wasn't). The problem was the announcers were doing so much yakking, they missed that and only talked about the clock.

The clock thing was likely figured out quickly.

Well, Tell's Bells, THAT should have taken another five seconds for a total of ten seconds to get the game rolling again:D There must be more! Did they shellac the table while they were over there?

[Newton_14]

Well, Tell's Bells, THAT should have taken another five seconds for a total of ten seconds to get the game rolling again:D There must be more! Did they shellac the table while they were over there?

Agree. Even looking for both of those things, they took entirely too long. I was more upset about a gassed Kansas squad getting valuable rest than the icing of Tyler. He did miss the first free throw though, so the wait could have factored there.

You are right it took a ridiculous amount of time, but I wasn't sure how many caught the little "mano-mano" moment. (Man I love Tyler. Backs down from no one! tough kid!)

Tyler = "Mini-Nate"

[moonpie23]

there is a serious love-fest going on over on IC for jay....


ugh...




So on Jay Bilas' recap of the Maui Invitational, he had this to say:





Say whaaaat..

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7279728&_slug_=ncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7279728%26_slug_ %3dncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui

[wilko]

Curry was pushed and pushed twice....
Refs arent going to make a bail out call AT that point in the game unless something egregious happens or there is blood on the court.
Seth did what he could and got a great assist.

[elvis14]

Curry was pushed and pushed twice....
Refs arent going to make a bail out call AT that point in the game unless something egregious happens or there is blood on the court.
Seth did what he could and got a great assist.

That's what gets me. I watched that play a bunch of times and knew the haters would be out in full force crying "he walked" and "Duke gets all the calls". What the haters don't mention is that Curry was fouled twice before that jump stop. If you're going to complain about calls with that play, talk about the whole play, all three possible calls not just the last. I've read the whole thread and I know there's been a good bit of discussion over whether that was a travel or not but as far as I'm concerned since the first two calls weren't made, I don't care if it was a travel.

On the larger scale, what a great week! Three good Duke games and Thanksgiving day with family. Doesn't get much better. Is it Tuesday yet?

[feldspar]

I know there's been a good bit of discussion over whether that was a travel or not but as far as I'm concerned since the first two calls weren't made, I don't care if it was a travel.



I've watched the play about 1,000 times (not really, but close) and I think it all boils down to the benefit of replay. Jay never said anything when the play happened. Only when it got replayed in slow motion did he comment on it.

In real time, I don't see any way you can call a travel. First of all, that little pivot foot shift you see Seth do before he starts his dribble, and the dribble being released after he lifts his pivot foot, and especially the two feet coming down not at the same time (which honestly is pretty hard to see unless you're watching in super slow-mo) are incredibly difficult to see in real time.

And, yes, I thought there was a lot of contact on Seth during that play. Bottom line, both sides need to be a little more realistic with these end of game situations. Yes, you'll hear the NCAA say that they want things called right at the end of the game, and you'll hear talk about calling stuff the same at the end of the game as you do throughout the game. But then there's reality, where the refs are, most of the time, going to call stuff that's only really blatantly a foul. You and me and the average fan may all disagree where that line is, but end-of-game fouls and violations are called relatively consistently across the board.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, did Seth travel? In retrospect and according to the rules, I guess yes he did, now that I've reviewed the play about 1,000 times.

But that's not reality, and that's not the lens through which we should view end-of-game situations. I don't think it's realistic to expect the refs to call a travel in that situation. You just can't see it in real time. At least not enough to know 100% sure and blow the whistle and take a play away from a team in late-game situation. Just as I don't think it would be realistic to expect them to call a foul in that situation. It's just not there.

[Kimist]

Was Kansas out of gas at the end?

AND the most blatant screw-up the refs made all night, way more important than any individual call against either team, was when it took them THREE FREAKING MINUTES to finally decide that all they had to do was remove the "1" from the 19:39 to get the clock back on track!! Huge advantage gained by Kansas' bench-challenged unit. Duke had the fresher players. Bill Self had to be laughing to himself the whole time.

I made the same observation at the time.

Kansas was basically gassed and a simple clock "fix" resulted in an unscheduled break similar to a media time out.

Although we will never know, Duke had them on the ropes and that sequence perhaps gave them a second wind.

k

[elvis14]

I've watched the play about 1,000 times (not really, but close) and I think it all boils down to the benefit of replay. Jay never said anything when the play happened. Only when it got replayed in slow motion did he comment on it.

In real time, I don't see any way you can call a travel. First of all, that little pivot foot shift you see Seth do before he starts his dribble, and the dribble being released after he lifts his pivot foot, and especially the two feet coming down not at the same time (which honestly is pretty hard to see unless you're watching in super slow-mo) are incredibly difficult to see in real time.

And, yes, I thought there was a lot of contact on Seth during that play. Bottom line, both sides need to be a little more realistic with these end of game situations. Yes, you'll hear the NCAA say that they want things called right at the end of the game, and you'll hear talk about calling stuff the same at the end of the game as you do throughout the game. But then there's reality, where the refs are, most of the time, going to call stuff that's only really blatantly a foul. You and me and the average fan may all disagree where that line is, but end-of-game fouls and violations are called relatively consistently across the board.

I agree with you. I'm not saying that I expected the fouls before the travel or the travel to be called. I'm saying that if people want to cry about the 'travel' then they should acknowledge the fouls right before the travel (and then stop crying about the 'travel'). I'm very disappointed in Jay's comment.

[Newton_14]

I agree with you. I'm not saying that I expected the fouls before the travel or the travel to be called. I'm saying that if people want to cry about the 'travel' then they should acknowledge the fouls right before the travel (and then stop crying about the 'travel'). I'm very disappointed in Jay's comment.

Yeah, have to agree. I am not a Bilas Basher at all, but I feel his comments were unneccessary and only served to fan the flames.

That said, another iffy travel call in the game was the one on Andre when he grabbed the rebound late in the game, started to pass, but then stopped. His upperbody made it look like a walk, which is likely what the ref saw, but I didn't think his pivot foot moved. Andre pointed that out also. That came at a key time as well, as we had the lead at the time.

[feldspar]

I'm saying that if people want to cry about the 'travel' then they should acknowledge the fouls right before the travel (and then stop crying about the 'travel'). I'm very disappointed in Jay's comment.

This I'm on board with. And I'm also disappointed with Jay's comments, especially considering he's been blatantly wrong on citing the rules plenty of times, but he spouts off as if he's speaking the truth. Not that this is exclusive to Jay, it's very common with commentators.

I really wish, when commenting on plays like this, Jay and others would at least acknowledge the benefit of being able to see things in slow motion with instant replay. It's unfair (and IMHO, unprofessional) to throw referees and teams like Duke under the bus just because you have the luxury of a monitor at your table.

[sagegrouse]

This I'm on board with. And I'm also disappointed with Jay's comments, especially considering he's been blatantly wrong on citing the rules plenty of times, but he spouts off as if he's speaking the truth. Not that this is exclusive to Jay, it's very common with commentators.

I really wish, when commenting on plays like this, Jay and others would at least acknowledge the benefit of being able to see things in slow motion with instant replay. It's unfair (and IMHO, unprofessional) to throw referees and teams like Duke under the bus just because you have the luxury of a monitor at your table.

"[Jay] spouts off as if he's speaking the truth." And the alternative is? When he's lying, do you want him to pull at his earlobe as a signal, a la Carol Burnett?

I got no problem with the broadcast -- there is a lot of air time to fill and the announcers are gonna say something at every moment. Not all of it is going to be cogent; only some of it will be verifiably correct. Besides, complaining about the announcers and the referees is for losers -- and WE WON!

sagegrouse

[tele]

My complaint with the the focus on a possible missed traveling call is that it takes away from what to me was the real deciding play, Tylers first three. Maybe if Kansas had thought to guard Thornton on that first play, instead of trying to double team the ball, they wouldn't have had to watch their lead disappear when a wide open Thornton knocked down that go ahead, wide open three. Bill self may have wanted to shift the focus to the second "desperation" three, the one that they actually guarded him on, by saying that was the ballgame, that was the ballgame. But that doesn't mean the first shot wasn't just as big or even bigger. I think it is more difficult to knock down a wide open three, down by one, with plenty of time left on the shot clock, than to put one up just to try and get a shot off before the shot clock expires, when you are playing with the lead. The first three was the winning basket for Duke.

Also, if you don't call a foul on the player guarding Curry, how can you call a travel on the same play? Anyone? Anyone? Bilas? Maybe after all the Duke love at MSG, Jay is feeling the need to un-align himself again. It would be disappointing if it wasn't so predictable.

[OldPhiKap]

Jay calls it like he sees it. I have absolutely no problem with the way he calls games, although like everyone he is not always correct.

I think he was wrong on the call in question, but also believe that the reaction to his call is overblown. He commented on what he saw, nothing more or less. He is not fanning any flames of conspiracy. He said in a passing comment that he thought it was a travel, so be it.

Len Elmore, I'll help pile on with everyone. Assuming he is back this year, I have not had the "pleasure" of hearing his cantankerous sour self this year yet. But Jay is okay in my book, even when I disagree.

FWIW.

[feldspar]

Jay calls it like he sees it. I have absolutely no problem with the way he calls games, although like everyone he is not always correct.

I think he was wrong on the call in question, but also believe that the reaction to his call is overblown. He commented on what he saw, nothing more or less. He is not fanning any flames of conspiracy. He said in a passing comment that he thought it was a travel, so be it.

Len Elmore, I'll help pile on with everyone. Assuming he is back this year, I have not had the "pleasure" of hearing his cantankerous sour self this year yet. But Jay is okay in my book, even when I disagree.

FWIW.

I completely disagree.

It's one thing to say "I thought he traveled." or "I saw a travel there." But when announcers speak unequivocally, as in "Curry did not travel, he traveled twice," he's overstepped what I see his role as.

To me, it's a bigger issue, that is that announcers cloud the rules because they speak without knowing them. Case in point, in the 2008 NCAA tournament, you recall the game where GTown beat Vanderbilt in, I think, the Sweet 16 to set up an Elite 8 matchup with UNC. One of the keys to that game was a move by Jeff Green in the closing minutes of the game that Seth Davis went off on in-studio. He ranted for an entire segment about how the move was a travel and the refs handed GTown the game.

Come to find out that Seth isn't quite brushed up on his rules and, looking back, he had to revise his statement because the move was completely legal (although, in slow-mo, you can see that Green shifted his pivot foot slightly before he made the move -- see my comments above about slow-mo replay and officiating).

Even though Seth apologized, the damage has already been done. Millions of people watched that game and listened to Seth's comments and now believe that move (which is a pretty common step-through move used in women's basketball) is illegal. So now you've got people who watch basketball developing a misunderstanding of a completely legal move.

Now, I'm not presuming to say that this has far-reaching effects into all of the basketball fanbase, but it's the little things added up. A comment here and a complaint there about "missed" calls that weren't really missed AT ALL, and you have fans not understanding the rules as they really are, and that's what irritates me. I just wish announcers would do a little more opining on the rules and a little less stating of facts because, as much as they wish they were, they're far from experts when it comes to the rules of the game.

[Wander]

It's one thing to say "I thought he traveled." or "I saw a travel there." But when announcers speak unequivocally, as in "Curry did not travel, he traveled twice," he's overstepped what I see his role as.


I like Jay Bilas, but unfortunately, this is a pretty frequent occurrence. From constantly insulting VCU last year for being included in the tournament to his comments on why college players need to be paid, he has a very bad habit of treating his opinions as facts and harping on them for far too long.

[OldPhiKap]

he has a very bad habit of treating his opinions as facts and harping on them for far too long.

He's a lawyer. It's what we do.


In all seriousness, I am not sure of any color commentators who do anything other than that. Bobby Knight does it, but we give him a pass because he was a great coach. Dickie V does it, and we give him a pass because he's like the crazy babbling uncle that everyone ignores. Len Elmore does it, and everyone rolls their eyes becuase he is such a sour puss. Digger Phelps does it, and we laugh to ourselves because Johnny Dawkins pwned his team in Cameron. (heh). It's the role of the color guy.

Jay and some others think it was a travel. Many on this board do not. Others still recognize it was a bang-bang play. Regardless, even if he blew the call, I don't recall him harping on it repeatedly like he did with the VCU issue last year. He did his job, which is to discuss what he saw at the time and then everyone moved on to the next play.

[roywhite]

Jay and some others think it was a travel. Many on this board do not. Others still recognize it was a bang-bang play. Regardless, even if he blew the call, I don't recall him harping on it repeatedly like he did with the VCU issue last year. He did his job, which is to discuss what he saw at the time and then everyone moved on to the next play.

Well, he wasn't content to say "gee, looked like it might have been a travel".

As Alaskan Assasin noted in post #132 in this thread and as this link indicates, Jay had to state it as fact again, this time on a blog.

Bilas ESPN Blog (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7279728&_slug_=ncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7279728%26_slug_ %3dncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui)


On the decisive play of the Duke-Kansas final, Seth Curry did not travel; he traveled twice. The officials simply missed it.

IMO this qualifies as Terping, and it's not a pretty sight.

[CDu]

Well, he wasn't content to say "gee, looked like it might have been a travel".

As Alaskan Assasin noted in post #132 in this thread and as this link indicates, Jay had to state it as fact again, this time on a blog.

Bilas ESPN Blog (http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/blog?name=bilas_jay&id=7279728&_slug_=ncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2fblog%3fname%3dbilas_jay%26id%3d7279728%26_slug_ %3dncb-duke-impresses-ucla-disappoints-maui)



IMO this qualifies as Terping, and it's not a pretty sight.

Definitely strange that Bilas brought it back up. Although not surprising. He'll say something once and then he likes repeating the same words (verbatim) over and over again. Not sure why he felt the need to talk about it again given that it didn't really further his point (and his statement is debatable at best to begin with).

[CDu]

I like Jay Bilas, but unfortunately, this is a pretty frequent occurrence. From constantly insulting VCU last year for being included in the tournament to his comments on why college players need to be paid, he has a very bad habit of treating his opinions as facts and harping on them for far too long.

Definitely agree that he gets a talking point then runs it into the ground. Even if it means bringing up said talking point completely outside of the context of discussion.

Though in fairness, I think he was right about VCU. I don't think they earned the right to be in the tournament. They were an 11-loss team from a weaker conference. That they went out and made the Final Four doesn't mean they had previously earned the right to be in it.

[Kimist]

To a certain degree I will give the commentators, including Bilas, some free rein as to what they can/should say. They obviously know far more about basketball than I do.

What does concern me is the after-effects of situations where if you say something enough it seems to become the truth to many.

(Someone will have to fill in the facts here....) I remember when Billy Packer was in his final laps(e) and kept harping about Duke getting all of the breaks, favorable officiating, etc. It soon became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and IIRC in the following NCAA game the calls were so strongly against Duke that it almost appeared Duke was never fouled unless blood and/or broken bones ensued.

Just my 2¢ worth....

k

[Gewebe14]

Definitely a good point. I've just gotten to the point where I just relish the fact that our coach is so powerful that he can a. affect the thinking of NCAA seeding committees and b. get every ref in every neutral site to bend to his whims. Its kinda nice when you think of it like that.

[enick66]

Besides, complaining about the announcers and the referees is for losers -- and WE WON!

sagegrouse

Well said!

[Jderf]

To a certain degree I will give the commentators, including Bilas, some free rein as to what they can/should say. They obviously know far more about basketball than I do.

What does concern me is the after-effects of situations where if you say something enough it seems to become the truth to many.

(Someone will have to fill in the facts here....) I remember when Billy Packer was in his final laps(e) and kept harping about Duke getting all of the breaks, favorable officiating, etc. It soon became a self-fulfilling prophecy, and IIRC in the following NCAA game the calls were so strongly against Duke that it almost appeared Duke was never fouled unless blood and/or broken bones ensued.

Just my 2¢ worth....

k

Not much to add here, but wouldn't that be the opposite of a self-fulfilling prophecy? A self-negating prophecy?

[jimsumner]

One of the problems with being paid for your opinions is that it becomes easy to mistake your opinion for fact.

[Wander]

Though in fairness, I think he was right about VCU. I don't think they earned the right to be in the tournament. They were an 11-loss team from a weaker conference. That they went out and made the Final Four doesn't mean they had previously earned the right to be in it.

Yeah, I agree, they probably shouldn't have been in, but letting in the 38th best at-large team instead of the 34th best at-large team (or whatever the numbers are now with these damn play-in games) isn't the grand moral outrage that he made it out to be. I still like him and find him one of the better guys out there, he just needs to chill out every once in a while.

[oldnavy]

I have to say that I really enjoyed the Kansas fans that I got to know at the tournament. All in all they are very knowledgable about BB and are respectfull of Duke BB and coach K. We were surrounded by KU fans and with the exception of one idiot sitting a few rows back of us they were very polite and gracious after the loss. They travel very well, by far the largest fan base there.

The one guy (there is always one) was riding Tyler Thornton on a free throw earlier in the second half. He yelled "number 3, you suck!, I have never shot a basketball and I can shoot better than you". I was too excited after TT's two threes to look back to see his reaction, but I can say that I did not hear him yelling again.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Digger Phelps does it, and we laugh to ourselves because Johnny Dawkins pwned his team in Cameron. (heh).

Did someone who remembers the Reagan Presidency just use the phrase pwned? Really?? LOL

[OldPhiKap]

Did someone who remembers the Reagan Presidency just use the phrase pwned? Really?? LOL

My kids tell me it's all the rage.

Not only do I remember the Reagan Presidency, by the way, I went to see him when he spoke at Cameron.

But, more importantly, I was there when Johnny and the boys kicked Digger in the color-matched highligher. Heh.


On a side note -- how do you think Princeton will do this year? Harvard looked pretty strong over the holiday.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

On a side note -- how do you think Princeton will do this year? Harvard looked pretty strong over the holiday.

Let's just say that expectations are not high in Tigerland. We have somehow become one of those strangely tall mid-major teams (if we are one of those), but unfortunately we are not strangely good. Pray God that one of my all-time favorite Princetonians Mitch Henderson is a good recruiter, because we are not stacked after what I considered to be one of the stranger coaching changes after last year's awesomeness.

After giving NC State (depleted as they were) all they could handle, we subsequently lose to Elon, Bucknell, and Morehead St. Meanwhile Harvard beats Fl St. I will leave it to you to assess those early season performances.

[OldPhiKap]

Let's just say that expectations are not high in Tigerland. We have somehow become one of those strangely tall mid-major teams (if we are one of those), but unfortunately we are not strangely good. Pray God that one of my all-time favorite Princetonians Mitch Henderson is a good recruiter, because we are not stacked after what I considered to be one of the stranger coaching changes after last year's awesomeness.

After giving NC State (depleted as they were) all they could handle, we subsequently lose to Elon, Bucknell, and Morehead St. Meanwhile Harvard beats Fl St. I will leave it to you to assess those early season performances.

I think NC State is better than most folks thought pre-season. Elon has made the tourney a few times recently IIRC so they must have something going on.

As we can see from the Duke-Belmont, UNC-UNLV and Butler-anyone games, there are great teams out there who can reach up and grab anyone. And the teams all look different in March than they do in November. I would love to see both Harvard and Princeton make the tourney. That would be "rad" as I am told the kids say.

Peace out, yo.