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Newton_14
11-22-2011, 09:30 PM
Another solid win by the good guys.

Discuss the game here.

jacone21
11-22-2011, 09:33 PM
I think the guys are improving... learning how to win. Michigan was on fire in the second half. The Devils have to keep the defensinve intensity up for 40 minutes. Not 33, 36, or 38, but 40. I'm confident it'll come.

Let's win a championship!

jipops
11-22-2011, 09:35 PM
I actually think watching us in a tight game throughout may be less stressful than watching us cling to a dwindling lead. Once again we play stellar basketball for a stretch early in the 2nd half to create separation and once again we struggle towards the end. Their extended zone gave us a lot of problems late. Our defense was non-existent at the end, though I understand we didn't want to foul and most of the focus was on clock management. I would have liked to have seen Mason get the ball deeper in the post and not so far away from the box but that can be part of facing the zone.

Our guard play was very good tonight, especially Seth.

uh_no
11-22-2011, 09:36 PM
Another solid win by the good guys.

Discuss the game here.

YUp.

Great first half.....second half...ehhhhhhh

-credit to UM for hitting some tough shots, but we can't be giving up 53 points in 20 minutes....
-austin and dre had very good games, but still took a some bad shots....dre i remember taking a running three near the duke bench which got blocked, and austin took a few from ~25' range....not good shot selection, regardless of how hot you are
-mason FOULS wow.....miles did a pretty good job stepping up in his place with 4 points and 5 boards
-overall horrible job on the boards, though.....we got out rebounded 29-25 (11-6 offensive), they're not small, but we're still bigger....
-we hit 7-10 3pt, then 4 of our last 11...gotta not just settle for them when they're falling....always work on offense to get the open shot, whether its a 3 or a drive...


really happy with our performance overall.....certainly progress.

MartyClark
11-22-2011, 09:37 PM
Very solid win. I thought the guards played well and Kelly had a solid game. Michigan is a pretty good team and they really shot the ball well in the second half.

The Plumlee's inability to score in the low post against a good team is troubling. Mason's inability to hit a free throw does not bode well. Miles again showed terrible hands. I don't understand why the Plumlee's can't score against that 1-3-1.

But, I'm dwelling on the negative when there was some very good play from the rest of the team.

mgtr
11-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Tyler Thornton does more to impact the game with less impact on the scoresheet than any player I can recall. As Auerbach said about KC Jones -- he doesn't shoot that well, he isn't that fast, but when he plays, we win. Color me impressed!

uh_no
11-22-2011, 09:42 PM
Tyler Thornton does more to impact the game with less impact on the scoresheet than any player I can recall. As Auerbach said about KC Jones -- he doesn't shoot that well, he isn't that fast, but when he plays, we win. Color me impressed!

its called the tebow effect

Bluedevil114
11-22-2011, 09:44 PM
I really like how the team is developing and Andre is earning his minutes. Curry is running the team great and Austin really knows how to get to the lane. Once he figures out how to get even better shots, he will only become more dangerous. Kelly was absolutely solid on the boards and on the offensive side of the floor.

Plumlees got worse tonight. Too many fouls, too much dribbling and not enough boards. Defensively they looked sloppy tonight.

Overall very happy with the effort of our young team. Still looking for a leader to emerge. Need more energy.

Also need Austin to focus his energy on his next play and not running his mouth with the opposing team.

turnandburn55
11-22-2011, 09:49 PM
Tyler Thornton does more to impact the game with less impact on the scoresheet than any player I can recall.

Dave McClure comes to mind immediately

mgtr
11-22-2011, 09:51 PM
Dave McClure comes to mind immediately

OK, great catch -- I agree completely!

Devilsfan
11-22-2011, 09:52 PM
The Plumlees seem to struggle when they play against smart opponents (players and/or coaches). Ryan doesn't have that problem.

basket1544
11-22-2011, 09:53 PM
How is it that Michigan looked so good against Duke in March? Duke didn't play as well as they could have and still managed to win (would have been easily if they hadn't stopped playing defense around the 2:30 mark).

roywhite
11-22-2011, 09:55 PM
Love the balanced scoring and really had some good ball movement tonight.

Curry and Rivers have different skill sets but complement each other very well.
Seth is so solid coming off screens or spotting up for a three. What a beautiful stroke.
Austin is really special as a penetrator; just offhand, the only Duke players I can recall with his skill for beating an opponent off the dribble are Jason Williams and Kyrie Irving.

Really good win against a very good Michigan team that shot lights out in the 2nd half.

ArkieDukie
11-22-2011, 09:59 PM
Ryan had a very good game. Very solid throughout. Seth had another of his very quiet, high-scoring games.

It appeared that the "assist" switch was turned on for Austin Rivers at halftime. He made some very nice passes to open teammates in the second half. It goes without saying that he also made some beautiful shots, but I was as happy, if not more happy, with the assists. His overall game is even more solid when he gets his teammates involved in the action IMHO.

Kelly got my vote for MOTM, but one could just as easily make an argument for giving Austin Rivers the nod. I thought Kelly was consistently good throughout the entire game, and Rivers had a strong 2nd half.

sagegrouse
11-22-2011, 10:05 PM
I thought Austin Rivers had his best game. He seemed to be at the center of the offense and was consistent throughout the game. I also thought he did well on defense.

Kelly, Curry and Dawkins also had good games with scoring at critical times. Duke shot 11 for 21 (52%) from 3-point land.The first half was amazing. Not only was the defense at the "shutdown" level but the offense did a good job of carving up the Michigan zone.

No complaints about the Plumlees. Mason is an amazing talent and should demand the ball more. Both Mason and Miles did a good job of taking the ball away from Michigan players.

Tomorrow is the big day. The big problem in the Maui tournament is the cramps from the heat and humidity in the gym. I suspect we'll see some effects tomorrow with the third game in three days for eight teams.

Go Duke!!!!!

sagegrouse

loran16
11-22-2011, 10:08 PM
Dave McClure comes to mind immediately

More Sean Dockery than McClure - McClure guarded bigger guys (SFs mainly), not point guards.

fisheyes
11-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Tyler Thornton does more to impact the game with less impact on the scoresheet than any player I can recall. As Auerbach said about KC Jones -- he doesn't shoot that well, he isn't that fast, but when he plays, we win. Color me impressed!


Well said. I just don't know what the intangible is that he brings to the floor when he's in but the rest of the team clearly picks up the intensity. Way to go Tyler!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-22-2011, 10:11 PM
I thought that it was a weak perimeter defensive effort from Michigan and another example of a good outside shooting from Duke covering for a poor post offense.

To date, the post offense consists of offensive rebounds from 3's. This is a good Duke team, but there is no way they win a title without better effort and results getting easy baskets inside with the bigs and keeping teams honest. Teams are going to stay on the shooters sooner or later and these high %'s are coming down.

Duke will have to improve post play as the season goes along.

Saratoga2
11-22-2011, 10:13 PM
I loved Seth's game tonight. He is smart and reliable and played good defense. While he is not a break your ankle point guard, he makes up for it with savy and scoring talent. Ryan played great tonight and has become one of the keys to the teams success. Scoring, passing and playing sound defense. He has really made great progress.

Some may criticize the wildness of Austin's penetrating moves and his at times loss of defensive concentrations. I think we all need to realize he is a freshman in the early part of the season. He gives Duke a weapon that other defenses have to account for. I love his game and expect it to only improve as the season progresses.

Andre played very well and chipped in 14. I think he was getting tired toward the end and you could see his and Ryan's shots were off toward the end. That brings up what I think is something Duke needs to consider during the end of game situations. We have trouble scoring inside with the Plumlee's but it would be great if we could go away from the exclusive use of the three to end the game. Maybe we want to play Kelly inside and let him gets shots near the basket. If they foul him in the act, he is deadly from the line.

Thornton played a solid defensive game and chipped in 4 points so his overall impact was solid as was Cook's when he was in.

The Plumlee's will take criticism for their play, but they played hard, and are our athletic bigs. We need them to be successful Yes it would be better in Miles could learn not to dribble the ball when he is close to the basket and of couse Mason needs to hit his free throws. Overall though we still need to respect their efforts as without them we would not be successful.


After two hard games we are going to be tired going into tomorrow night. Let us hope our shooters will still maintain their legs and that our defensive intensity can remain high for the entire game. Miles really should be fresh since he hasn't played that many minutes, but the starters have all logged a lot of minutes. We are seeing that Duke is indeed worthy of their ranking and can win the tournament if they dont tire out totally.

Newton_14
11-22-2011, 10:14 PM
Very solid win. I thought the guards played well and Kelly had a solid game. Michigan is a pretty good team and they really shot the ball well in the second half.

The Plumlee's inability to score in the low post against a good team is troubling. Mason's inability to hit a free throw does not bode well. Miles again showed terrible hands. I don't understand why the Plumlee's can't score against that 1-3-1.

But, I'm dwelling on the negative when there was some very good play from the rest of the team.

Michigan took away the post by double teaming/trapping any time one of our bigs caught the ball on the block, whether in zone or man. They decided to force or guards to beat them, which is exactly what happened.

Michigan is a good team, and well coached. Everyone talks about Belein's offense, but he makes his money with his defensive scheme's.

Once again we had great balance in our scoring with Austin, Seth, Kelly, and Dawkins all in double figures. We were really good offensively in both halve until the last 6 minutes when we settled for too many jumpshots and went cold. Andre got blocked twice, and missed 3 threes and a mid-range jumper. Kelly missed 2 three's, and Austin missed a three. That was way too many three's to be taking trying to close out the game. We lost our defensive intensity at times in the 2nd half, but I give Michigan credit as well. When it went from 17 at the 7 minute mark down to 9, I thought that was more of a "Michigan run" than bad play on our part.

Michigan played really well offensively in the 2nd half, but every single time they made a run, Duke would answer with a huge shot or mini-run of their own. Austin was really good tonight, as was Seth and Ryan. It had to be disheartening to Michigan to hit 3's, score on great moves to the basket, then look up and they are still down 8 to 11 points. It was a game of runs, and at the end of the day, Duke just had too much firepower for Michigan.


This is a darn good Duke Basketball team that is only going to get better. Michigan handled Memphis last night, and Tennessee took Memphis to double OT before losing by 2. Duke comes out of that group of 4 teams looking very impressive. If the defense can get a little more consistent, this team is going to be extremely difficult to beat.

Looking forward to tomorrow night. The guys have a great opportunity in front of them to cut down some nets and win a championship early in this young season, which is awesome. Let's hope they get some much needed rest and come out ready to play tomorrow evening.

Go Duke!

roywhite
11-22-2011, 10:17 PM
I thought that it was a weak perimeter defensive effort from Michigan and another example of a good outside shooting from Duke covering for a poor post offense.To date, the post offense consists of offensive rebounds from 3's. This is a good Duke team, but there is no way they win a title without better effort and results getting easy baskets inside with the bigs and keeping teams honest. Teams are going to stay on the shooters sooner or later and these high %'s are coming down. Duke will have to improve post play as the season goes along.

You're probably right about improvement and the need for post offense.

Still, how many teams can defend the outside shooting of a team that has Kelly, Curry, Rivers, and Dawkins on the floor along with good ball movement.
Can't cover them all.

hq2
11-22-2011, 10:23 PM
Nice scoring balance. I think we are starting to see how things will happen with this team.
With Seth, Andre, Austin, and RK, we seem to have four double figure scorers. RKs
versatility has moved him ahead of the Plumlees IMHO in importance. In particular,
his excellent free throw shooting will make him a huge defensive and rebounding
presence at the end of close games, wheras the Plumlees cannot be left out there
when the other team starts to foul. He may even win some close games for us like
that this year.

The Plumlees seem to go up and down depending on the quality of the defense.
Against shorter defenders, they are effective. Against better (taller) ones they
aren't. However, RKs emergence has taken a lot of the scoring pressure off of
them; I'd say a combination of the two for 14 a game will be enough. Mason has
to stop driving from too far away from the basket.

Austin got lucky from area-code range tonight; not sure he should be cranking those
all the time.

Starter
11-22-2011, 10:24 PM
I thought that it was a weak perimeter defensive effort from Michigan and another example of a good outside shooting from Duke covering for a poor post offense.

To date, the post offense consists of offensive rebounds from 3's. This is a good Duke team, but there is no way they win a title without better effort and results getting easy baskets inside with the bigs and keeping teams honest. Teams are going to stay on the shooters sooner or later and these high %'s are coming down.

Duke will have to improve post play as the season goes along.

Well, Wheat's obviously impressed.

I thought they played a nice game against a good team. You'd think if the Plumlees have a game like this that Duke wouldn't stand a chance, but Kelly's really balling right now, and the guard play has been fantastic. I still think Thornton is a physical liability defensively -- sorry, but I do -- but he definitely busts his tail and everyone picks up on it. And Rivers... what can I say? I think the early-season scrutiny of him has been absurd. Throw out a shaky game against Michigan State and he's scored over 15 in the other four games. He's already showing more of an inclination to draw the defense and kick it out. But this is our Twitter society -- we make a great deal over small sample sizes. Rivers played a certain way in one game, so he must be that kind of player, right?

Anyway, this season has been a joy to watch so far. I love seeing young players come into their own. My only criticism is that I think both Cook and Hairston should be seeing more court time, especially Cook, but it's hard to complain about anything else. They'll take their lumps at some point, but it's a fun team to watch develop.

Gthoma2a
11-22-2011, 10:30 PM
I thought that it was a weak perimeter defensive effort from Michigan and another example of a good outside shooting from Duke covering for a poor post offense.

To date, the post offense consists of offensive rebounds from 3's. This is a good Duke team, but there is no way they win a title without better effort and results getting easy baskets inside with the bigs and keeping teams honest. Teams are going to stay on the shooters sooner or later and these high %'s are coming down.

Duke will have to improve post play as the season goes along.

Well, with outside shooting and offensive rebounds, we can do a lot more than you think. We have one banner that came from that and good defense. Plus, I don't think that there is any team that is head and shoulders above anybody else this season. They can market UNC as great, but they are basically the same team as last year (not much improved from it, and their new players play like role players that graduated last year so far). A weak schedule has left me without much to go on when trying to gauge how good they are, but I am not impressed to this point. Kentucky has already struggled in some games against lower opposition. I think Ohio State may be the toughest team overall because of the solid play of Kraft and Sullinger (Sullinger impresses me with his maturity and physicality down low). Time will tell, but this is anybody's race. I like what we are doing so far (we're young, but we are putting the pieces together).

ACCBBallFan
11-22-2011, 10:36 PM
Not a lot of separation by player or combination. The starters played a lot together again, half the game with Ryan and another 6 minutes with Miles:

Occurs Duke Michigan +/- Time Line-Up

5 40 36 +4 19.9 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan

4 09 05 +4 05.8 Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles

2 07 05 +2 03.5 Seth-Austin-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

1 07 04 +3 03.3 Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn

1 06 03 +3 02.5 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles

1 02 05 -3 01.9 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 11 12 -1 01.6 Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

1 00 00 00 00.8 Dre-Mason-Tyler-Quinn-Josh

2 00 03 -3 00.5 Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

1 00 02 -2 00.2 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Tyler

19 82 75 +7 40.0 Total


On individual +/-:

Duke Mich +/- +/min -/min +/-/min

73 65 +8 2.1 1.9 +0.2 Dre
53 45 +8 2.0 1.7 +0.3 Mason

75 68 +7 2.1 1.9 +0.2 Seth
76 70 +6 2.1 1.9 +0.2 Ryan

75 71 +4 2.1 2.0 +0.1 Austin
24 21 +3 1.7 1.5 +0.2 Miles
07 04 +3 1.7 1.0 +0.7 Quiinn

00 00 00 0.0 0.0 00.0 Josh

27 31 (4) 2.3 2.6 (0.3) Tyler

Newton_14
11-22-2011, 10:36 PM
I thought that it was a weak perimeter defensive effort from Michigan and another example of a good outside shooting from Duke covering for a poor post offense.

To date, the post offense consists of offensive rebounds from 3's. This is a good Duke team, but there is no way they win a title without better effort and results getting easy baskets inside with the bigs and keeping teams honest. Teams are going to stay on the shooters sooner or later and these high %'s are coming down.

Duke will have to improve post play as the season goes along.

Let me guess. You have watched a grand total of 2 Duke games this year? Mich St/Mich? Duke has been scoring in the post all year. As mentioned in the MIch St thread, Mason either scored or a drew a foul on about 80+% of his post touches in the Mich State game, and Ryan played well that game also.

Tonight Ryan had 17, scoring in a variety of ways. Mason did not get a lot of touches tonight, and Mich St double teamed the post every single time. They have to, because they can't contain the post playing one on one. So wisely, in a lot of cases, Mason kicked it back out to shooters, which is exactly what he should do in that situation.

This team is very much fine offensively right now, getting points from multiple players (5 guys averaging double figures), and scoring multiple ways. (Bigs in the post, Austin with drives, and the others with mid-range offense and 3's). Great balance.

And Mason is averaging a double/double but you would think he was the worse player in College Basketball from reading some of the comments on this board.

tieguy
11-22-2011, 10:39 PM
But at least from the boxscore, he's right. Our effective shooting percentage before this game was already one of the best in the country per Pomeroy, and then we shot 10% better than our season average, and almost all of that came because of the three (for most of the game our unadjusted shooting percentage from three was better than from two or from the FT line!) We will face teams that keep up with us on the perimeter, and I don't see much evidence that our bigs will keep them honest in the post....

uh_no
11-22-2011, 10:40 PM
Well, with outside shooting and offensive rebounds, we can do a lot more than you think. We have one banner that came from that and good defense. Plus, I don't think that there is any team that is head and shoulders above anybody else this season. They can market UNC as great, but they are basically the same team as last year (not much improved from it, and their new players play like role players that graduated last year so far). A weak schedule has left me without much to go on when trying to gauge how good they are, but I am not impressed to this point. Kentucky has already struggled in some games against lower opposition. I think Ohio State may be the toughest team overall because of the solid play of Kraft and Sullinger (Sullinger impresses me with his maturity and physicality down low). Time will tell, but this is anybody's race. I like what we are doing so far (we're young, but we are putting the pieces together).

I agree to an extent. We have an offense that is or will be as good as any in the nation. I do not, however, think that we have the ability to defend those offenses of our caliber (all the teams you've named).

We'll most certainly know more when UNC and UK play and we play OSU. Uconn should play FSU at the end of the week, which will give us SOME better indication than we've had so far.

If you had to ask me for predictions: UNC blows out UK, who being young makes mistakes early in the year only to improve later (remember last year uconn beat them by 20 in maui and then UK makes the final four and was a shot away from making the championship game)

I think OSU goes down low early, and either scores with ease or puts the plumlees in foul trouble (if tonight is any indication, mashall may start seeing some minutes in that game). I think we start taking bad shots on offense and lose by 15+ (which is generally how we lose games as we try to take 3's to catch up and end up more in a hole)

Bob Green
11-22-2011, 10:50 PM
RKs versatility has moved him ahead of the Plumlees IMHO in importance.

Ryan Kelly is an extremely valuable member of this team. Who knows, by the time April rolls around, he very well may be the team's Most Valuable Player; however, I caution against undervaluing the contributions of Mason and Miles. Those two are our main interior guys and we need them for rebounding, and defense, and rebounding, and low post scoring, and rebounding, and ... you get my point. To borrow a favorite "catch phrase" from the "talking heads," Ryan Kelly is a stretch four much more than he is an interior player.

I 100 percent agree with you his free throw shooting could win a game or three for us this season. RK is money from the line.

Billy Dat
11-22-2011, 10:52 PM
Fantastic win.

-We had a stretch of offense in the first half that was the best we have looked all year on that end of the court. We kept setting up effective isolation for nearly everyone on the floor, the starters were in for their second stint together, and it opened a small window into how lethal an offensive force these guys can be. Rather than being top heavy with one or two big time scorers, everyone on the floor can score and each was aggressively hunting his shot. Rivers was born aggressive, and Seth showed us last year that he wasn't shy. Mason and Kelly are newly aggressive this year, and tonight Dawkins was actively working for his shot, not just taking what fell into his lap within the motion. It was sublime. We couldn't maintain it, but it's a gear we haven't shown yet and I am glad that it exists.

-Kelly, Rivers, Curry and Dawkins all played great/ Loved seeing Rivers' playmaking.

-I don't think it's fair to lump Mason in with Miles as "the Plumlees" as in "if the Plumlees don't pick it up". Mason has stepped out of that shadow this year and I though he was effective early despite the offensive fouls. Michigan changed up their defenses to disrupt that isolation flow we had going in the first and it wasn't as easy for him to catch and operate.

-Thornton's penetration and dish to Mason for a dunk to extend the lead from 6 to 8 with 11+ left was a huge play at the time. He followed it a few plays later with that smart decision to dribble cross court and hit Seth in stride for the 3 rather than passing straight up to Austin. In between those two plays, Miles got a huge o-board and putback to keep us up 8. It was a key two minute sequence in the game.

-Michigan is a nice squad. Burke is a really good freshman point guard, Hardaway Jr. is really tough. We'd all love to have Novak on our team. They fought to the very end. Michigan should be thrilled that Beilein is bringing back their program (no offense, Tommy).

-Our guys logged big minutes tonight. With Kansas seemingly headed for an easy win, I am sure we'll be the more run-down team tomorrow. Our guys seem tough, though. I can't wait to see what they've got because they've given us a lot to get excited about these first few weeks so far.

DUKIE V(A)
11-22-2011, 10:54 PM
Well, Wheat's obviously impressed.

I thought they played a nice game against a good team. You'd think if the Plumlees have a game like this that Duke wouldn't stand a chance, but Kelly's really balling right now, and the guard play has been fantastic. I still think Thornton is a physical liability defensively -- sorry, but I do -- but he definitely busts his tail and everyone picks up on it. And Rivers... what can I say? I think the early-season scrutiny of him has been absurd. Throw out a shaky game against Michigan State and he's scored over 15 in the other four games. He's already showing more of an inclination to draw the defense and kick it out. But this is our Twitter society -- we make a great deal over small sample sizes. Rivers played a certain way in one game, so he must be that kind of player, right?

Anyway, this season has been a joy to watch so far. I love seeing young players come into their own. My only criticism is that I think both Cook and Hairston should be seeing more court time, especially Cook, but it's hard to complain about anything else. They'll take their lumps at some point, but it's a fun team to watch develop.

Agree wholeheartedly on the Cook/Hairston more PT comment. Cook is a star in the making, and Hairston gets a lot of loose balls, plays tough D, hits the open mid-range jumper, and rarely turns the ball over. Of course, all four guards playing ahead of Cook were very good tonight so it is tough to argue that any of them should have rested more tonight. I think it bears watching to see if Hairston can improve to the point that he is stealing minutes from Miles as the season progresses.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-22-2011, 10:57 PM
I am impressed with this team. Some serious shooters out there and they are playing hard.

But the inside game has to get better, and it can. Mason, Miles and Kelly have the ability to post up, but the offense is not looking to do that. They' ve been just bombing away.

That may be coach K's plan to give the guards some confidence shooting early in the season before turning some focus to the inside later, but I believe they will have to get better inside offense to
go deep in the tourney.

Gthoma2a
11-22-2011, 10:57 PM
I agree to an extent. We have an offense that is or will be as good as any in the nation. I do not, however, think that we have the ability to defend those offenses of our caliber (all the teams you've named).

We'll most certainly know more when UNC and UK play and we play OSU. Uconn should play FSU at the end of the week, which will give us SOME better indication than we've had so far.

If you had to ask me for predictions: UNC blows out UK, who being young makes mistakes early in the year only to improve later (remember last year uconn beat them by 20 in maui and then UK makes the final four and was a shot away from making the championship game)

I think OSU goes down low early, and either scores with ease or puts the plumlees in foul trouble (if tonight is any indication, mashall may start seeing some minutes in that game). I think we start taking bad shots on offense and lose by 15+ (which is generally how we lose games as we try to take 3's to catch up and end up more in a hole)

I don't know. It depends on a bunch of factors. We have better guards than all of those teams but Kentucky (we are still probably better, but not by as wide a margin). Kelly spreads the floor effectively now (that is a key). The main threat with OSU is down low, but if we focus our efforts on preventing entry passes to the post, we can marginalize that. I don't think Kraft is that athletic or effective against our guards. I also think that our guard depth will serve us well if we can stay in it early. The rankings seem off to me and I think that we will do better than some people think.

I think that location will serve Kentucky well against UNC. They have Jones and Lamb back. Those two guys are very talented and have a year of being on a growing team to guide their new bevy of talent. I think that the intensity of Rupp helps them to beat UNC. It is a crazy place and they have ridiculous talent this year. They are better than any Cal has had. Early mistakes could cost them, but they have enough to push them past their mistakes. UNC seems like a bland team IMO. Watching them, I tend to be bored and thinking that they are good, but predictable and overrated (think workman-like). I honestly feel that they haven't gotten better this year, but are playing like the same team as they were to end the season (good, but not great). It could be that I am just watching them play with limited effort against limited opposition, but I haven't seen something that makes me scared of them.

Bob Green
11-22-2011, 11:05 PM
...and Hairston gets a lot of loose balls, plays tough D, hits the open mid-range jumper, and rarely turns the ball over...

Hairston was 4-6 from the field against Presbyterian. He has not scored in the other four games (0-3 from the field). On the season, he has one assist against three turnovers. I acknowledge he has had limited opportunity so far this season, but I have a hard time figuring out where he fits in the rotation. He appears to be a tweener - not big enough to be a power forward but not quick enough to be a small forward. I expect he will see some minutes during non-conference games in December, but once the ACC schedule starts on January 7, I suspect his minutes will become few and far between barring serious foul trouble.

DownEastDevil
11-22-2011, 11:07 PM
I thought that it was a weak perimeter defensive effort from Michigan and another example of a good outside shooting from Duke covering for a poor post offense.

To date, the post offense consists of offensive rebounds from 3's. This is a good Duke team, but there is no way they win a title without better effort and results getting easy baskets inside with the bigs and keeping teams honest. Teams are going to stay on the shooters sooner or later and these high %'s are coming down.

Duke will have to improve post play as the season goes along.

This actually makes me feel pretty good about this team. I can recall Wheat's analysis of the 2010 team and we all know what that team did!



Happy Thanksgiving....

Both teams I saw last night looked weak with interior play.

Miles Plumlee is going to be a good player. A really good player. He just has a little ways to go....

Other than him, Duke struggles to get any above average play from the inside positions. The horses are just not there.

Scheyer was the best player on the floor, no question.

Smith was Duke's quickest player, but was hesitant to use his gift. Not sure why.

I liked Dawkin's focus and stroke. Very good, comfortable ealy season game for the freshman.

I have yet to see Mason Plumlee play, but we know 9 out of 10 freshmen would struggle to impact the big games that are on the horizon. He better be the second coming of Hansbrough if Duke thinks they will get past the sweet sixteen this year.

Sure sounds familiar. Go Duke!

uh_no
11-22-2011, 11:08 PM
The main threat with OSU is down low, but if we focus our efforts on preventing entry passes to the post, we can marginalize that.


I question our ability to do that though. We were not able to do that against arizona in the spring, and we have lost arguably our two best perimeter defenders. Our porous perimeter defense (perhaps that's slightly harsh) will mean that our bigs likely have to hedge a little to help. Point being that I don't think we can deny sullinger the ball without sacrificing defense elsewhere, and I don't think that we have the defensive prowess down low to stop him (not necessarily a knock on our guys, just that sullinger is really really good).

Again, this doesn't mean we won't be able to score points exploiting our strength on the perimeter offensively, just that they will be extremely efficient offensively against us, and the larger variance of jump shooting could put us behind at any given point, when we have a tendency to take more and more 3 pointers to try to "catch up"

We will see what happens. Again, this is just my prediction. Obviously I hope I am wrong.

Wander
11-22-2011, 11:14 PM
This actually makes me feel pretty good about this team. I can recall Wheat's analysis of the 2010 team and we all know what that team did!

My all-time favorite comment on this board comes early in that season, when Duke lost at, I believe, Wisconsin. Wheat claimed that the UNC second string was as good or better than the Duke starting five. That's an NIT bench being better than the national champion starters. I've never seen any analysis been that wrong, in any sport, ever.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-22-2011, 11:16 PM
Let me guess. You have watched a grand total....

I have seen enough to know the bigs are reacting inside and not creating plays.

Son of Jarhead
11-22-2011, 11:28 PM
Tyler Thornton does more to impact the game with less impact on the scoresheet than any player I can recall. As Auerbach said about KC Jones -- he doesn't shoot that well, he isn't that fast, but when he plays, we win. Color me impressed!


Dave McClure comes to mind immediately


More Sean Dockery than McClure - McClure guarded bigger guys (SFs mainly), not point guards.


I don't think t&b55 was considering who they guard, only that, as mgtr noted, they both impact the game in ways that don't show in the boxscore. Sean did as well. Lance would be another. Every team needs players like that. Unheralded and invaluable at the same time.

uh_no
11-22-2011, 11:30 PM
My all-time favorite comment on this board comes early in that season, when Duke lost at, I believe, Wisconsin. Wheat claimed that the UNC second string was as good or better than the Duke starting five. That's an NIT bench being better than the national champion starters. I've never seen any analysis been that wrong, in any sport, ever.

I don't know....i recall Mr. Gottlieb's analysis early in that year being alarmingly un-accurate

PSurprise
11-22-2011, 11:32 PM
(Slightly) in Wheat's defense, teams most definitely can improve during the course of the season. With the amount of talent on this team (and most Duke teams that I can remember), it's a matter of coming together at the end of the year. We've seen it happen (2010), and we've seen it not happen as well. I always look for improvement from month-to-month in the teams. If there is little improvement by mid-to-late January, I get wary of just how far the team can go in March and April.

Newton_14
11-22-2011, 11:34 PM
I have seen enough to know the bigs are reacting inside and not creating plays.

Sorry Wheat, but we will have to disagree. I have seen every game including all the home games in person. Mason and Ryan both have played at a very high level in every game on both ends of the floor. Miles has been up an down but has still made solid contributions as he did tonight. The team was struggling to score in the Davidson game (whose front line is bigger than Michigan's) and K had them pound it down low to Mason again and again, and Mason delivered big time. The only thing that kid is doing wrong right now is poor free throw shooting. I agree that they should go to him even more, but tonight was not the night to do it. Belien schemed the defense to double every time as that was there only chance down low against our bigs.

My overall point remains this team can score in many ways and have showed that game in and game out. As for 3's, there aren't many shooters in the country better than Seth and Andre. Austin can knock them down as well, as can Ryan, and Quinn.

5 guys averaging double figures is great team basketball. I personally love the balance. If they ever learn to play intense defense for 35-40 minutes, they will be extremely difficult to beat.

They are undefeated against a tough schedule which I did not expect at this point given all the question marks coming in. They will take their lumps along the way but, come March, they will be a tough out.

Jeff0r3
11-22-2011, 11:40 PM
Say what you want about our Guard play, Austin River being a BEAST (He is!!!!), Curry being lights out (He is too!!!) and the fact that Dawkins can light it up whenever he gets a chance (He is three!!). The key to our success is the play of Ryan Kelly.. He has that ability to make big plays on both ends of the court. I still feel like he is highly underrated and does a ton of things behind the scenes that continuously get overlooked. Even the big man Jay Bilas missed him a few times tonight.. What does the guy have to do to get the recognition he deserves!! Not hating, just want him to be appreciated by everyone else in the nation!!

camion
11-22-2011, 11:49 PM
I love having Ryan on the floor. He doesn't have jaw dropping athleticism, but his ratio of good to bad plays is outstanding.

I don't think he has a bone in his head. :)

Starter
11-23-2011, 12:00 AM
Hairston was 4-6 from the field against Presbyterian. He has not scored in the other four games (0-3 from the field). On the season, he has one assist against three turnovers. I acknowledge he has had limited opportunity so far this season, but I have a hard time figuring out where he fits in the rotation. He appears to be a tweener - not big enough to be a power forward but not quick enough to be a small forward. I expect he will see some minutes during non-conference games in December, but once the ACC schedule starts on January 7, I suspect his minutes will become few and far between barring serious foul trouble.

I think it's difficult to make judgments about Hairston when he's played 15 minutes in the last four games on a guard-oriented team. The 1-3 A/TO doesn't mean much to me, though if we're using small sample sizes, Hairston has the best per-minute rebound rate on the team. I like Hairston's energy when he comes in, and though I guess he could be an inch or two taller, I actually don't see him as a tweener -- he's listed at 6-7, 235, and doesn't play small. Lance Thomas, by comparison, was listed at 6-8, 225, and played exclusively at the 4. I've long wanted to know what we had in Hairston, and if Thornton's primary value is his energy and intangibles, i'd assume Hairston can provide more of the same.

That said, I wasn't born yesterday, and I'm not deluding myself into thinking that Hairston will play major minutes this season. This rotation from tonight is likely what we're in for come ACC time. I'm just saying I'd like to see Hairston get some more time, especially with Miles Plumlee consistently underwhelming.

On the other hand, it's more than plausible that Cook is good enough to carve out more time, and it'd definitely be in our team's best interests. I'm very intrigued by what I've seen from him both in high school and for Duke, and I'd love to see a viable Cook add to our depth in the backcourt, especially when he appears to be a legit talent.

Bob Green
11-23-2011, 12:07 AM
I think it's difficult to make judgments about Hairston when he's played 15 minutes in the last four games on a guard-oriented team.

I am not passing judgment, I am just stating an opinion, which is: Hairston needs another year to develop and will certainly be a guy who contributes in the future. I doubt he plays very much this year.


On the other hand, it's more than plausible that Cook is good enough to carve out more time, and it'd definitely be in our team's best interests. I'm very intrigued by what I've seen from him both in high school and for Duke, and I'd love to see a viable Cook add to our depth in the backcourt, especially when he appears to be a legit talent.

I agree with you 100 percent! Cook will play a lot this year. I was really impressed by Cook's performance with USA Basketball.

UrinalCake
11-23-2011, 12:10 AM
Jeez, Duke fans will complain about inside scoring all day long, but as soon as a UNC fan comes in and says the same thing then everyone gets all defensive. Mason has had some solid games but continues to be a work in progress. I think it's fair to say we'll need him to continue to improve if we want to start talking about winning a national title (which is basically what Wheat said). Miles needs to pick his spots well and not try to do too much, he's a solid contributor but is never going to lead our team in scoring. Ryan scores in a lot of ways but is not a traditional low-post scorer. We're going to eventually have a game where we don't shoot well from the outside (yes, it is possible that EVERYONE is cold on the same night) and need to prove we can win those games. This has been the case for the past several years.

Kedsy
11-23-2011, 12:36 AM
We should all appreciate what we have this year. I guess it makes sense to point out the negatives and express doubts, but considering what we lost from last year, our current team is a revelation. We have five guys who have a good chance to make one of the three All ACC teams (Seth, Austin, Ryan, Mason and Andre). We are undefeated (so far) against a very difficult schedule. We are exceeding expectations, which is really hard to do at a place like Duke.

Instead of nitpicking every little mistake, I prefer to consider what our opponents must think when they play us. How can they defend a lineup of Seth, Austin, Andre, Ryan, and Mason? They all need to be double-teamed and none of them can be. Our bigs are very big and very talented and athletic. Most teams can't match up with us inside, and when's the last time we've been able to say that? Our guards are ridiculous. There might be a few better backcourts in the country, but that doesn't mean anybody can guard ours. On how many teams in the country would Quinn Cook be the fifth perimeter player on the depth chart?

On defense, we've been much better much earlier than anybody could have expected, with so many people in new roles defensively. Yes, once we build a big lead we have tended to exhale and we're not good enough defensively yet to let up even a little and expect to dominate. Still, we've been good enough so far to bend but not break. As we get more comfortable playing D, we'll either play hard for 40 minutes (not letting up after carving out a big lead) or we'll be good enough to exhale without letting the other team get out on a run. Or we won't, but I think we will.

Put another way, we've been good enough to build leads of at least 13 points in every game we've played, and at least 16 in every game but one. And our D has been good enough to make those leads stand up.

I'm thrilled with what I've seen from Duke so far this season. I'm sure we'll lose a few games along the way, but this is shaping up as a special year.

greybeard
11-23-2011, 12:49 AM
Duke looked great in the first half, the exterior players were smashing.

However, how often did Mason or Miles touch the ball early in the clock? Did you see anything that remotely looked like a play to have one of them catch it on the move--for example, the ball is on the right side near the sideline, corner or foul line extended, Miles or Mason comes up the lane on the left side to the left top corner of the lane, sets a backscreen for the guard, the big defender shades, Miles or Mason comes across towards the ball, towards space in the middle, with the guys on the exterior being committed, as in under orders, to get the cutter the ball, to get it to them with appropriate timing and touch, or sit?

When the going gets tough, or is expected to be tough, Duke goes to an exterior oriented game in which the Plumlees' principal roles are to set high screens, mostly for Rivers, but also for Dre and Curry, and to offensive rebound. I saw one guy look to get it to one of the Plumlees early and that produced a dunk That's the list.

Getting it later in the clock close to the baseline with a guy on your back IS NOT A SCORING POSITION or did no one listen to the General the night K broke his record--he kept on saying that Mich. State's boigs were getting it too low, and that their ability to scare anyone from that position was minimal if that. Well, somehow Duke could not figure out a way to get either Plumlee the ball either inside the lane or midway up the side of the lane, and certainly not on the move or to make an athletic catch that would create even a milli moment of separation, or heaven forbid, an edge towards the basket.

I think that Duke plays a wonderfully entertaining style and it is every bit as effective as one would expect given its wealth of talent. You want a championship callibar team, you get the Plumlees involved, and I mean as in integral to the offense. You don't, I don't like Duke's ability to make meaningful noise. Maybe they don't have it--I mean, UNC looks awfully, awfully good, and there are a host of teams that can really, really play, whose bigs will tear you up. Maybe Duke is just berift of the gifted Big that it needs.

PS Neither of the Plumlees is named Brian or Lance and they will not make the type of contribution those guys did, in particular Brian, playing blocking back. It ain't happening. Asking them to try, to me, would be a shame. Sadly, unless K makes it otherwise, it seems to me that that is where this team might be headed.

gam7
11-23-2011, 01:01 AM
We should all appreciate what we have this year. I guess it makes sense to point out the negatives and express doubts, but considering what we lost from last year, our current team is a revelation. We have five guys who have a good chance to make one of the three All ACC teams (Seth, Austin, Ryan, Mason and Andre). We are undefeated (so far) against a very difficult schedule. We are exceeding expectations, which is really hard to do at a place like Duke.

Instead of nitpicking every little mistake, I prefer to consider what our opponents must think when they play us. How can they defend a lineup of Seth, Austin, Andre, Ryan, and Mason? They all need to be double-teamed and none of them can be. Our bigs are very big and very talented and athletic. Most teams can't match up with us inside, and when's the last time we've been able to say that? Our guards are ridiculous. There might be a few better backcourts in the country, but that doesn't mean anybody can guard ours. On how many teams in the country would Quinn Cook be the fifth perimeter player on the depth chart?

On defense, we've been much better much earlier than anybody could have expected, with so many people in new roles defensively. Yes, once we build a big lead we have tended to exhale and we're not good enough defensively yet to let up even a little and expect to dominate. Still, we've been good enough so far to bend but not break. As we get more comfortable playing D, we'll either play hard for 40 minutes (not letting up after carving out a big lead) or we'll be good enough to exhale without letting the other team get out on a run. Or we won't, but I think we will.

Put another way, we've been good enough to build leads of at least 13 points in every game we've played, and at least 16 in every game but one. And our D has been good enough to make those leads stand up.

I'm thrilled with what I've seen from Duke so far this season. I'm sure we'll lose a few games along the way, but this is shaping up as a special year.

Nailed it.

juise
11-23-2011, 01:02 AM
I found a video of the post-game press conference (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CExmqD81QCc) that I thought was worth sharing. K does most of the talking. Austin gets a few words in. K thinks Duke is a pretty dangerous shooting team with Ryan in the lineup. I agree.

Dukeface88
11-23-2011, 02:03 AM
You know, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth over our post play makes me think we should play a game where we shoot (not make, shoot) three 3-pointers in the first half, get half our points in the paint, and both Plumlees score double digits. I guess it's too bad that hasn't already happened (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205335790) or anything.

Yes, we shot a high number of three pointers and made a high percentage. That didn't happen by accident; one of the classic ways to beat the zone is to shoot over it, and the 1-3-1 in particular is vulnerable to the corner threes. We saw a weakness and successfully exploited it. In doing so, we just beat a top-15 opponent on a neutral court by a healthy margin. I'm pretty sure that's what good teams are supposed to do.

tele
11-23-2011, 05:33 AM
Duke looked great in the first half, the exterior players were smashing.

However, how often did Mason or Miles touch the ball early in the clock? Did you see anything that remotely looked like a play to have one of them catch it on the move--for example, the ball is on the right side near the sideline, corner or foul line extended, Miles or Mason comes up the lane on the left side to the left top corner of the lane, sets a backscreen for the guard, the big defender shades, Miles or Mason comes across towards the ball, towards space in the middle, with the guys on the exterior being committed, as in under orders, to get the cutter the ball, to get it to them with appropriate timing and touch, or sit?

When the going gets tough, or is expected to be tough, Duke goes to an exterior oriented game in which the Plumlees' principal roles are to set high screens, mostly for Rivers, but also for Dre and Curry, and to offensive rebound. I saw one guy look to get it to one of the Plumlees early and that produced a dunk That's the list.

Getting it later in the clock close to the baseline with a guy on your back IS NOT A SCORING POSITION or did no one listen to the General the night K broke his record--he kept on saying that Mich. State's boigs were getting it too low, and that their ability to scare anyone from that position was minimal if that. Well, somehow Duke could not figure out a way to get either Plumlee the ball either inside the lane or midway up the side of the lane, and certainly not on the move or to make an athletic catch that would create even a milli moment of separation, or heaven forbid, an edge towards the basket.

I think that Duke plays a wonderfully entertaining style and it is every bit as effective as one would expect given its wealth of talent. You want a championship callibar team, you get the Plumlees involved, and I mean as in integral to the offense. You don't, I don't like Duke's ability to make meaningful noise. Maybe they don't have it--I mean, UNC looks awfully, awfully good, and there are a host of teams that can really, really play, whose bigs will tear you up. Maybe Duke is just berift of the gifted Big that it needs.

PS Neither of the Plumlees is named Brian or Lance and they will not make the type of contribution those guys did, in particular Brian, playing blocking back. It ain't happening. Asking them to try, to me, would be a shame. Sadly, unless K makes it otherwise, it seems to me that that is where this team might be headed.

I think you have to Michigans defense some credit, they were doubling the post and their zones dont give you easy passing lanes inside for the most part. That and Duke was playing it's second game in 2 days, with little if any time to prepare for a vastly different defensive approach from MU. I think they did ok, they caused Mich. to focus on them on defense and Duke's bigs were a disruptive force on Defense altering quite a few shots close to the basket. That's a solid contribution on a winning team, even if it doesn't jump out at you on the stat sheet.

Speaking of not jumping out at you, anyone else notice Miles offensive stance when he gets the ball in the post is too wide? Appears to me, like he is exaggerating the width of his stance to play big or something, but looks like his feet are so far apart when he gets the ball, he's more or less stuck. His first move has to be to take a step to shorten his stance before he can even begin a post move, if he just doesn't travel first. Seems like he would be better able to make an effective offensive move if he had a more normal, balanced stance. It's hard to even pivot when you have your feet way out wide like that (don't try this at home). What sometimes looks like indecision might just be his stance.

superdave
11-23-2011, 06:46 AM
We should all appreciate what we have this year. I guess it makes sense to point out the negatives and express doubts, but considering what we lost from last year, our current team is a revelation. We have five guys who have a good chance to make one of the three All ACC teams (Seth, Austin, Ryan, Mason and Andre). We are undefeated (so far) against a very difficult schedule. We are exceeding expectations, which is really hard to do at a place like Duke.

Instead of nitpicking every little mistake, I prefer to consider what our opponents must think when they play us. How can they defend a lineup of Seth, Austin, Andre, Ryan, and Mason? They all need to be double-teamed and none of them can be. Our bigs are very big and very talented and athletic. Most teams can't match up with us inside, and when's the last time we've been able to say that? Our guards are ridiculous. There might be a few better backcourts in the country, but that doesn't mean anybody can guard ours. On how many teams in the country would Quinn Cook be the fifth perimeter player on the depth chart?

We do seem to have 3-4 different guys stepping up each night. If Andre can score off the bounce a little better, everyone improves their free throws and we cut down on turnovers, we'll be putting teams away earlier in games. We're building leads now, just not sustaining them. We're close though, and getting better each game. For all the complaining out there, it has to be said that a lot of former role players are growing into key players pretty well. 6-0.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-23-2011, 07:04 AM
This actually makes me feel pretty good about this team. I can recall Wheat's analysis of the 2010 team and we all know what that team did!




Sure sounds familiar. Go Duke!

I think I was mostly right on with that analysis, with the exception of miles becoming "really" good.

Duke ended up getting exactly what I said they needed tha year, from Zoubek.

slower
11-23-2011, 07:42 AM
Do you all remember the chart that Luke Winn did last year? The one that showed the number of assists, and their recipients, that Kyrie dished vs. the number that Nolan dished? I'd be curious to see what percentage of Seth's assists go to Andre vs. the percentage of Austin's assists that go to Dre. I know that Austin clearly dished to Dre for a second-half three, but my gut feeling is that Austin just doesn't pass to Dre very much. I'm not trying to create an issue where none exists, it's just my personal impression.

NOTE: Here's the link http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/luke_winn/12/09/power.rankings/index.html

stixof96
11-23-2011, 07:44 AM
Duke isn't perfect, but, the train is just now leaving the station. I really like what I am seeing, I'll tell you that. This is an excellent basketball team right now and they are only going to get better. I wouldn't complain too much about the post players, with Mason, Miles and Kelly there are alot of ways to attack with these 3. I see a great season ahead and I believe these kids play very hungry and are solid competitors. Better look out, is my opinion. Lots of weapons here.

Saratoga2
11-23-2011, 07:44 AM
Duke looked great in the first half, the exterior players were smashing.

However, how often did Mason or Miles touch the ball early in the clock? Did you see anything that remotely looked like a play to have one of them catch it on the move--for example, the ball is on the right side near the sideline, corner or foul line extended, Miles or Mason comes up the lane on the left side to the left top corner of the lane, sets a backscreen for the guard, the big defender shades, Miles or Mason comes across towards the ball, towards space in the middle, with the guys on the exterior being committed, as in under orders, to get the cutter the ball, to get it to them with appropriate timing and touch, or sit?

When the going gets tough, or is expected to be tough, Duke goes to an exterior oriented game in which the Plumlees' principal roles are to set high screens, mostly for Rivers, but also for Dre and Curry, and to offensive rebound. I saw one guy look to get it to one of the Plumlees early and that produced a dunk That's the list.

Getting it later in the clock close to the baseline with a guy on your back IS NOT A SCORING POSITION or did no one listen to the General the night K broke his record--he kept on saying that Mich. State's boigs were getting it too low, and that their ability to scare anyone from that position was minimal if that. Well, somehow Duke could not figure out a way to get either Plumlee the ball either inside the lane or midway up the side of the lane, and certainly not on the move or to make an athletic catch that would create even a milli moment of separation, or heaven forbid, an edge towards the basket.

I think that Duke plays a wonderfully entertaining style and it is every bit as effective as one would expect given its wealth of talent. You want a championship callibar team, you get the Plumlees involved, and I mean as in integral to the offense. You don't, I don't like Duke's ability to make meaningful noise. Maybe they don't have it--I mean, UNC looks awfully, awfully good, and there are a host of teams that can really, really play, whose bigs will tear you up. Maybe Duke is just berift of the gifted Big that it needs.

PS Neither of the Plumlees is named Brian or Lance and they will not make the type of contribution those guys did, in particular Brian, playing blocking back. It ain't happening. Asking them to try, to me, would be a shame. Sadly, unless K makes it otherwise, it seems to me that that is where this team might be headed.

What we have seen to date is that our guard play is very solid and improving game to game. In addition, Ryan is an extremely valuable big man who can score, is money from the line, plays good defense and does his share of rebounding.

That leaves the Plumlee brothers who can either bring this team to really compete for a final four position and beyond or be just a good team. Both Plumlees are physical specimens who have obviously worked very hard on condiitoning and strength.

Adding to that, Mason catches the ball well and can make good passes. He has developed a jump hook that is hard to stop and is capable of thunder dunks. He doesn't seem to have mastered other moves around the basket and has happy feet when trying to line up other shot possibilities. He has a major weakness shooting from the line. One would think that anyone with the kind of time that he has in practice could do better than 30% from the line. Clearly, defenses can foul him without suffering much of a consequence. Please Mason, solve your free throw issues. While Mason loses his defensive position at times, his athleticism and effort alters what opponents can do against us inside. He doesn't foul all that much so overall he is a very good player who could bring this team further with just a few tweaks.

Miles is also a gifted athlete but has trouble catching the ball, holding it and doing much offensively when he gets it inside. Can he improve during the rest of his senior season. Zoubeck did so there is hope, but Miles hasn't had physical problems so it is unlikely. His fould shooting is also spotty but he doesn't get to the line that much since he is touching the ball less these days.

Let us hope that Mason and Miles can improve and play a more dominant role in the two key games to come next.

This team needs either Mason or Miles to step up their offensive games if it is to compete at the highest levels.

We

dukeballboy88
11-23-2011, 08:00 AM
I dont know wheat, Mason is avg 10 ppg while shooting 11-32 from the line. Ryan is avg 12 ppg and we have played against some good comp at the start of the season. I like the way this team plays, you dont know where the bomb is coming from. They are going to get open looks all season, they just got to knock them down.

Its going to be a good chance to see how we stack up with Kansas because that Robinson cat is a beast. And, they played Kentucky pretty tough until mid way through the 2nd half so this is going to be a good test.

wilko
11-23-2011, 08:15 AM
I think you have to Michigans defense some credit, they were doubling the post and their zones dont give you easy passing lanes inside for the most part. That and Duke was playing it's second game in 2 days, with little if any time to prepare for a vastly different defensive approach from MU.

THIS
MU isn't a cupcake. They are a quality opponent with "hand" meaning they have some name recognition, unlike say Belmont or a Curry-less Davidson team. Lets give MU some credit. That D was a bit of a new wrinkle. I'm not surprised the post had some trouble attacking it with the dribble and pass.

The team is looking good!
when Silent G and Murf get added to the mix it will be dazzling the number of options and combinations we can put on the court.

NSDukeFan
11-23-2011, 08:26 AM
What we have seen to date is that our guard play is very solid and improving game to game. In addition, Ryan is an extremely valuable big man who can score, is money from the line, plays good defense and does his share of rebounding.

That leaves the Plumlee brothers who can either bring this team to really compete for a final four position and beyond or be just a good team. Both Plumlees are physical specimens who have obviously worked very hard on condiitoning and strength.

Adding to that, Mason catches the ball well and can make good passes. He has developed a jump hook that is hard to stop and is capable of thunder dunks. He doesn't seem to have mastered other moves around the basket and has happy feet when trying to line up other shot possibilities. He has a major weakness shooting from the line. One would think that anyone with the kind of time that he has in practice could do better than 30% from the line. Clearly, defenses can foul him without suffering much of a consequence. Please Mason, solve your free throw issues. While Mason loses his defensive position at times, his athleticism and effort alters what opponents can do against us inside. He doesn't foul all that much so overall he is a very good player who could bring this team further with just a few tweaks.

Miles is also a gifted athlete but has trouble catching the ball, holding it and doing much offensively when he gets it inside. Can he improve during the rest of his senior season. Zoubeck did so there is hope, but Miles hasn't had physical problems so it is unlikely. His fould shooting is also spotty but he doesn't get to the line that much since he is touching the ball less these days. Unfortunately, he has left 2-3 ppg at the line, but I doubt very much that he is unaware of this issue and hasn't been practising his free throw shooting. We are all hoping that will improve as the season goes on.

Let us hope that Mason and Miles can improve and play a more dominant role in the two key games to come next.

This team needs either Mason or Miles to step up their offensive games if it is to compete at the highest levels.

We

I would hesitate to lump the Plumlees together too much in any analysis of them as IMO Mason has been one of the best and most consistent players on the team this year. I wouldn't make too many conclusions based on one game. I have been impressed with Mason's offensive game this year as well, as he has been taking the ball strong to the basket and has looked very confident, as if he feels he should dominate. He also has the spin move he has used effectively this year as well as the pump fake reverse dunk. I think he has enough moves to be effective.
He has left 2-3 ppg on the table by not being able to make free throws and we are all hoping that improves, but I doubt that it is a lack of practice that is the major issue.
I agree that this team could use Mason or Miles to step up their offensive games to win at the highest levels, and expect one or both of them will provide very good offense in most of the team's games this year.

MChambers
11-23-2011, 08:33 AM
I have seen enough to know the bigs are reacting inside and not creating plays.

If only we had a big like Brian Bersticker! :)

brumby041
11-23-2011, 08:37 AM
Say what you want about our Guard play, Austin River being a BEAST (He is!!!!), Curry being lights out (He is too!!!) and the fact that Dawkins can light it up whenever he gets a chance (He is three!!). The key to our success is the play of Ryan Kelly.. He has that ability to make big plays on both ends of the court. I still feel like he is highly underrated and does a ton of things behind the scenes that continuously get overlooked. Even the big man Jay Bilas missed him a few times tonight.. What does the guy have to do to get the recognition he deserves!! Not hating, just want him to be appreciated by everyone else in the nation!!

I hear ya - but check the MOTM voting for the last several games. RK has either won it or been right in the mix.

He's also been starting over Miles.

(Or are you referring to props from the TV announcers?)

-Brumby

devildeac
11-23-2011, 08:47 AM
If only we had a big like Brian Bersticker! :)

Ah, yes, waiting for the old Bersticker reference. :-))

Faison1
11-23-2011, 08:54 AM
We should all appreciate what we have this year. I guess it makes sense to point out the negatives and express doubts, but considering what we lost from last year, our current team is a revelation. We have five guys who have a good chance to make one of the three All ACC teams (Seth, Austin, Ryan, Mason and Andre). We are undefeated (so far) against a very difficult schedule. We are exceeding expectations, which is really hard to do at a place like Duke.

Instead of nitpicking every little mistake, I prefer to consider what our opponents must think when they play us. How can they defend a lineup of Seth, Austin, Andre, Ryan, and Mason? They all need to be double-teamed and none of them can be. Our bigs are very big and very talented and athletic. Most teams can't match up with us inside, and when's the last time we've been able to say that? Our guards are ridiculous. There might be a few better backcourts in the country, but that doesn't mean anybody can guard ours. On how many teams in the country would Quinn Cook be the fifth perimeter player on the depth chart?

On defense, we've been much better much earlier than anybody could have expected, with so many people in new roles defensively. Yes, once we build a big lead we have tended to exhale and we're not good enough defensively yet to let up even a little and expect to dominate. Still, we've been good enough so far to bend but not break. As we get more comfortable playing D, we'll either play hard for 40 minutes (not letting up after carving out a big lead) or we'll be good enough to exhale without letting the other team get out on a run. Or we won't, but I think we will.

Put another way, we've been good enough to build leads of at least 13 points in every game we've played, and at least 16 in every game but one. And our D has been good enough to make those leads stand up.

I'm thrilled with what I've seen from Duke so far this season. I'm sure we'll lose a few games along the way, but this is shaping up as a special year.

I couldn't agree more with this post. I'm not sure why everyone is focusing on the negatives. Frankly, I was kind of prepared for a loss against Michigan.

This team is showing a lot of character, and loads of potential. So far, their toughness has been very impressive. I can't wait to watch the next few games. This season is going to be exciting!

NYBri
11-23-2011, 09:03 AM
Say what you want about our Guard play, Austin River being a BEAST (He is!!!!), Curry being lights out (He is too!!!) and the fact that Dawkins can light it up whenever he gets a chance (He is three!!). The key to our success is the play of Ryan Kelly.. He has that ability to make big plays on both ends of the court. I still feel like he is highly underrated and does a ton of things behind the scenes that continuously get overlooked. Even the big man Jay Bilas missed him a few times tonight.. What does the guy have to do to get the recognition he deserves!! Not hating, just want him to be appreciated by everyone else in the nation!!

Ryan will be the deciding factor as to how far this team goes, IMHO.

Devilsfan
11-23-2011, 09:27 AM
If only he could share some of his basketball IQ with our other bigs. Ryan is truly a Duke student that happens to be a VERY good, fundamentally sound basketball player. I bet K is pleased he jumped into the recruiting of Ryan. Those "intangibles" are an amazing thing. Go Devils!

Wheat/"/"/"
11-23-2011, 09:40 AM
I dont know wheat, Mason is avg 10 ppg while shooting 11-32 from the line. Ryan is avg 12 ppg and we have played against some good comp at the start of the season. I like the way this team plays, you dont know where the bomb is coming from. They are going to get open looks all season, they just got to knock them down.

Its going to be a good chance to see how we stack up with Kansas because that Robinson cat is a beast. And, they played Kentucky pretty tough until mid way through the 2nd half so this is going to be a good test.

Mason is playing better. What I'm talking about that will have to get better is a big sealing a position down low as a threat to score, which forces teams to collapse. If/when that happens,this team can win it all.

jv001
11-23-2011, 09:50 AM
Mason is playing better. What I'm talking about that will have to get better is a big sealing a position down low as a threat to score, which forces teams to collapse. If/when that happens,this team can win it all.

It would be great to see either Mason or Miles be able to seal down low and score, but I don't know if they have that ability. At least not with a big on their back. It's been a while since we've had that type player. What we do have are two guys(Mason & Miles) that can jump very high and are pretty strong. I think Coach K is using both guys according to their abilities. So far I'm pleased with their play. Well not the foul shooting but ok with the other parts of their games. The missing ingredient to have Final Four season may be the lack of a very talented wing(6'7"+). One that can defend the opposing team's wing players and can create offense. At the present time, I guess it's up to Andre to play that role. Offensively he'll be ok, but defending I'm not so sure. GoDuke!

CDu
11-23-2011, 10:01 AM
Great defensive first half. Not as good defense in the second half. Couple that with some ridiculous shooting, and you get a 53 point half.

Burke and Hardaway are really good players. Hardaway struggled mightily to get going against our defense (scoreless at the half), but he certainly played the part in the second half. Burke was terrific throughout. Novak hit a few late 3s and Morgan was the recipient of several of Burke's assists for easy buckets. Nobody else on Michigan did anything of note offensively for them. It was a matter of containing Burke and Hardaway. For one half, we did a really good job at it. For the other half, we didn't. And Michigan capitalized.

As for us, we shot the lights out. I don't think we can count on 50+% 3pt shooting every night. But we passed more and mostly took open shots. Continuing that will generally bode well for us. But I'm not all that concerned about our scoring. It's the defense that will be the key.

The good:
- Unbelievable perimeter shooting. We got open looks and we hit them early and often. Kelly and Curry were especially efficient from the field.
- First half defense. Michigan isn't exacty a highly-efficient offense, but we made them look atrocious in the first half. We completely eliminated their best player. Burke did well, but nobody else was a huge factor.
- Austin's decisionmaking (at times). He made a few very nice passes off the dribble and was willing to make exploratory drives rather than all-out drives. Much more nuanced effort on his part.
- The long-distance alley-oop from Cook to Mason was very fun.
- Thornton made two big end-of-shotclock driving plays. One was an off-balance layup that happened to find its way over/around a defender and in. The other was a nice dish to Mason for a dunk. Both negated great defensive efforts from Michigan when Michigan was trying to cut a lead.
- Mason's passing out of the post. I felt he made a couple of good decisions finding the open man out of the post.

The not-so-good:
- Still need to improve on defending dribble penetration. That was the key to Michigan's second half success.
- Miles had a rough night out there. He just didn't seem comfortable, and it showed (3 fouls, 3 turnovers in 13 minutes). The team played substantially better when we had Mason and Kelly out there. Hopefully he shakes this one off.
- Dawkins' decisionmaking late. He took some ill-advised early shots when we were in stall-ball mode that led to easy fast break points on the other end. He's such a good shooter and gets so few touches that it's hard to chastise. But we need to do a better job of understanding time and situation late.
- Thornton's fouls. The guy is an absolute spark out there. Good things seem to happen with him on the floor. But he commits way too many fouls. His foul rate is such that he couldn't really play more than 20mpg. So a bench role is really all he can provide at this point. Thankfully, he's doing that well.
- Rivers' shot selection (at times). He still hasn't met a shot he doesn't like. It's a blessing and a curse. He hit some VERY long threes in big situations. But I don't feel like those were good decisions. Thankfully they went in anyway. And he still took some very awkward driving shots. As I said in the "good" section, he's getting better. Still a work in progress. And it's nice when a work in progress can average ~1.5 pps and give you 20, 4, and 3.
- Mason's charges. I think 3 of Mason's 4 fouls were charges, and they all came when he dribbled from too far out and tried to go all the way to the rim. Given that he's a bit methodical in his moves, he has to recognize that the drive from 15+ feet away isn't going to be there very often. Everyone's due an off-night, but that's one clear area for him to polish up.

toooskies
11-23-2011, 10:03 AM
Mason had a rough game because he hasn't figured out how to beat a zone defense. And in truth, most bigs will. His charges were just him not knowing how quickly the zone defense rotation happens.

jv001
11-23-2011, 10:24 AM
Great defensive first half. Not as good defense in the second half. Couple that with some ridiculous shooting, and you get a 53 point half.

Burke and Hardaway are really good players. Hardaway struggled mightily to get going against our defense (scoreless at the half), but he certainly played the part in the second half. Burke was terrific throughout. Novak hit a few late 3s and Morgan was the recipient of several of Burke's assists for easy buckets. Nobody else on Michigan did anything of note offensively for them. It was a matter of containing Burke and Hardaway. For one half, we did a really good job at it. For the other half, we didn't. And Michigan capitalized.

As for us, we shot the lights out. I don't think we can count on 50+% 3pt shooting every night. But we passed more and mostly took open shots. Continuing that will generally bode well for us. But I'm not all that concerned about our scoring. It's the defense that will be the key.

The good:
- Unbelievable perimeter shooting. We got open looks and we hit them early and often. Kelly and Curry were especially efficient from the field.
- First half defense. Michigan isn't exacty a highly-efficient offense, but we made them look atrocious in the first half. We completely eliminated their best player. Burke did well, but nobody else was a huge factor.
- Austin's decisionmaking (at times). He made a few very nice passes off the dribble and was willing to make exploratory drives rather than all-out drives. Much more nuanced effort on his part.
- The long-distance alley-oop from Cook to Mason was very fun.
- Thornton made two big end-of-shotclock driving plays. One was an off-balance layup that happened to find its way over/around a defender and in. The other was a nice dish to Mason for a dunk. Both negated great defensive efforts from Michigan when Michigan was trying to cut a lead.
- Mason's passing out of the post. I felt he made a couple of good decisions finding the open man out of the post.

The not-so-good:
- Still need to improve on defending dribble penetration. That was the key to Michigan's second half success.
- Miles had a rough night out there. He just didn't seem comfortable, and it showed (3 fouls, 3 turnovers in 13 minutes). The team played substantially better when we had Mason and Kelly out there. Hopefully he shakes this one off.
- Dawkins' decisionmaking late. He took some ill-advised early shots when we were in stall-ball mode that led to easy fast break points on the other end. He's such a good shooter and gets so few touches that it's hard to chastise. But we need to do a better job of understanding time and situation late.
- Thornton's fouls. The guy is an absolute spark out there. Good things seem to happen with him on the floor. But he commits way too many fouls. His foul rate is such that he couldn't really play more than 20mpg. So a bench role is really all he can provide at this point. Thankfully, he's doing that well.
- Rivers' shot selection (at times). He still hasn't met a shot he doesn't like. It's a blessing and a curse. He hit some VERY long threes in big situations. But I don't feel like those were good decisions. Thankfully they went in anyway. And he still took some very awkward driving shots. As I said in the "good" section, he's getting better. Still a work in progress. And it's nice when a work in progress can average ~1.5 pps and give you 20, 4, and 3.
- Mason's charges. I think 3 of Mason's 4 fouls were charges, and they all came when he dribbled from too far out and tried to go all the way to the rim. Given that he's a bit methodical in his moves, he has to recognize that the drive from 15+ feet away isn't going to be there very often. Everyone's due an off-night, but that's one clear area for him to polish up.

Great observations. Perimeter defense was not so good in the 2nd half. As you said dribble penetration hurt us and was the main reason we gave up so many 2nd half points. But in all fairness to Austin, Hardaway hit some tough shots in the 2nd half. Just have to tip my hat to him.
Andre did take a few ill advised shots late in the game when we were trying to milk the clock. Maybe not the best shot selection. But sometimes, Andre doesn't get the ball when he should. He has that shooters mentality and thinks he's going to make ever shot.
Tyler is fouling at an alarming rate in few minutes, but I think this comes from not being able to keep the quick guards in front of him. He makes up for this with tough/rough defense. Therefore he's gong to be whistled for more fouls.
Austin's shot selection. I know he hit a big 3 at the end of the game, but it wasn't in the flow of the offense. Those shots are ok when they go in, but I don't think it was what Coach K wanted in that situation. Austin will be a great player by years end.
We are an improving team that will only get better. GoDuke!

Jderf
11-23-2011, 10:36 AM
The good:
- Austin's decisionmaking (at times). He made a few very nice passes off the dribble and was willing to make exploratory drives rather than all-out drives. Much more nuanced effort on his part.

Yes. This was one of my takeaways from the game as well. There's still a long way to go, but I feel that we are definitely already seeing some hints of progress out of Austin. I'm hoping that by late December, no one will even be talking about Austin's decision-making anymore.


The bad:
- Thornton's fouls. The guy is an absolute spark out there. Good things seem to happen with him on the floor. But he commits way too many fouls. His foul rate is such that he couldn't really play more than 20mpg. So a bench role is really all he can provide at this point. Thankfully, he's doing that well.

I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff. Coach K knows that he is only looking for about 20 mpg out of Thornton anyway, so his personal foul count might not be much of a concern. I'm not saying they tell Tyler to specifically go out and foul someone, but it wouldn't surprise me if their position was "Get out there, disrupt their offense by any means necessary, and don't sweat the fouls." Of course, team fouls is another story, but I'm sure the staff knows when to use Tyler and when not to.

CDu
11-23-2011, 10:41 AM
I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff. Coach K knows that he is only looking for about 20 mpg out of Thornton anyway, so his personal foul count might not be much of a concern. I'm not saying they tell Tyler to specifically go out and foul someone, but it wouldn't surprise me if their position was "Get out there, disrupt their offense by any means necessary, and don't sweat the fouls." Of course, team fouls is another story, but I'm sure the staff knows when to use Tyler and when not to.

Given how often we've heard the emphasis on keeping the other team out of the bonus, I doubt that this is the case. I'd guess that more likely the team sees an overall benefit to Thornton's play in spite of the fouls. I suspect they'd like him to foul less, but are willing to take the chance to get some benefit. I'm sure it's a concern, but they're playing the tradeoffs and hoping he can get better at it.

feldspar
11-23-2011, 10:52 AM
Mason is playing better. What I'm talking about that will have to get better is a big sealing a position down low as a threat to score, which forces teams to collapse. If/when that happens,this team can win it all.

Um, that's already happening. I think that's why multiple people are questioning whether you're actually watching the games or only just repeating what (some) talking heads are saying. There were multiple plays last night where Mason was double-teamed and passed the ball to the perimeter for a 3. It's already starting to happen.

Mason is already a threat inside. Is he a threat like Zeller and Henson? No, and Michigan did a better job containing him and cutting off the low post entry last night, especially with the 1-3-1 zone. But make no mistake, teams are already starting to focus in on him, which is leaving our perimeter more wide open for shots. So your "concerns" about Duke's outside shooting starting to suffer, to me, is a bit unfounded. If teams focus on the perimeter, Mason and Ryan Kelly are going to be able to go 1-on-1 against their defenders. If teams hone in on Mason and Kelly, our backcourt will be wide open to attack the 3-point line. It's only going to keep getting better.

feldspar
11-23-2011, 10:54 AM
I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff. Coach K knows that he is only looking for about 20 mpg out of Thornton anyway, so his personal foul count might not be much of a concern. I'm not saying they tell Tyler to specifically go out and foul someone, but it wouldn't surprise me if their position was "Get out there, disrupt their offense by any means necessary, and don't sweat the fouls." Of course, team fouls is another story, but I'm sure the staff knows when to use Tyler and when not to.

This.

It's evident from his play and from the way the staff reacted last night to him fouling out that he's the bulldog. He has five fouls to use and if he ends up using them all, so be it, since we're so deep in the backcourt. Tyler did an excellent job on Hardaway during stretches of the first half and parts of the second. He has fouls to give up, and I won't be surprised to see him get three or four a game on a regular basis. He's the disrupter.

Troublemaker
11-23-2011, 10:55 AM
Loved how Duke looked. We had a relatively clean ball-handling game and out-executed Michigan for open shots, both of which I didn't really expect to happen. The team stepped up big time and played our best first half of the season. Even when the Wolverines were red-hot and creeping back into the game in the second half, I never felt the outcome was in doubt due to Duke having so many guys shooting well and the level of execution. I just felt like we couldn't be stopped in this game and that's a nice feeling to have as a fan.

As for the side discussion about Duke's post play. This team is getting more post points than any Duke team since Shelden. And Landlord help me, but I think I would take this frontcourt over any during his era, too. I love the height, athleticism, and IQ of this year's starters. Bottom line, I'm very satisfied with the post play and think it will get even better as the season progresses.

Kedsy
11-23-2011, 11:03 AM
I'd be curious to see what percentage of Seth's assists go to Andre vs. the percentage of Austin's assists that go to Dre. I know that Austin clearly dished to Dre for a second-half three, but my gut feeling is that Austin just doesn't pass to Dre very much. I'm not trying to create an issue where none exists, it's just my personal impression.

I concur with this observation, but I don't necessarily think it's an Austin issue so much as I believe Seth looks for Andre more. I had this impression last year as well. My eyes told me Seth had a lot more assists to Andre last season than Nolan did. More even than Kyrie, when Kyrie was out there.


It would be great to see either Mason or Miles be able to seal down low and score, but I don't know if they have that ability.

I happen to think Mason has this ability. The travel calls and the offensive fouls mostly come when he tries to score from the top of the key. To me, he's been looking very solid around the basket, catching in good position, pivoting toward the hoop and laying it in. Obviously, this is easier against shorter players, but his footwork is so much better than it has been in the past, I believe he can score this way against the bigger bigs, too.


The missing ingredient to have Final Four season may be the lack of a very talented wing(6'7"+). One that can defend the opposing team's wing players and can create offense. At the present time, I guess it's up to Andre to play that role. Offensively he'll be ok, but defending I'm not so sure. GoDuke!

Past couple games I've been very happy with Andre's D. (I've also been much happier with his movement on O, but that's a different conversation.) I'm hoping within a month or two we'll all sit back and wonder how some people could possibly have ever advocated reducing his role.

hq2
11-23-2011, 11:06 AM
The missing ingredient to have Final Four season may be the lack of a very talented wing(6'7"+). One that can defend the opposing team's wing players and can create offense. At the present time, I guess it's up to Andre to play that role.

Precisely. Further up the road, this will be a serious matter, especially come NCAA time. Teams like St. Johns (see blowout last year with similar team) with quick, strong 6-6 6-7 wing players who pass and move well without the ball are going to give this team fits. Teams like that
can get it going, get their wings in the lane and start pouring in the shots, and we can't stop 'em; our bigs are too slow, and our smalls are
too short. This is where Josh really needs to try to step up; we need him at wing defensive stopper like Lance was a couple of years ago
(who, IMHO, won us some games with his truly great defense on some very tough players, by the way). Unfortunately, Josh doesn't have
Lance's lateral quickness and lightness on his feet, as far as I can tell. We'll see what he can do.

feldspar
11-23-2011, 11:31 AM
I happen to think Mason has this ability. The travel calls and the offensive fouls mostly come when he tries to score from the top of the key. To me, he's been looking very solid around the basket, catching in good position, pivoting toward the hoop and laying it in. Obviously, this is easier against shorter players, but his footwork is so much better than it has been in the past, I believe he can score this way against the bigger bigs, too.


Which is why I wish Mason would start sealing his man lower, down on the block. He tends to get the ball about three to four feet from the block, either up high toward the free throw line or extended out the baseline. That causes him to want to turn around and make a drive to the basket rather than using a drop-step type move or his running hook shot, which have proven relatively successful.

Wheat/"/"/"
11-23-2011, 12:08 PM
Um, that's already happening. I think that's why multiple people are questioning whether you're actually watching the games or only just repeating what (some) talking heads are saying. There were multiple plays last night where Mason was double-teamed and passed the ball to the perimeter for a 3. It's already starting to happen.

Mason is already a threat inside. Is he a threat like Zeller and Henson? No, and Michigan did a better job containing him and cutting off the low post entry last night, especially with the 1-3-1 zone. But make no mistake, teams are already starting to focus in on him, which is leaving our perimeter more wide open for shots. So your "concerns" about Duke's outside shooting starting to suffer, to me, is a bit unfounded. If teams focus on the perimeter, Mason and Ryan Kelly are going to be able to go 1-on-1 against their defenders. If teams hone in on Mason and Kelly, our backcourt will be wide open to attack the 3-point line. It's only going to keep getting better.

I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.

NSDukeFan
11-23-2011, 12:15 PM
Which is why I wish Mason would start sealing his man lower, down on the block. He tends to get the ball about three to four feet from the block, either up high toward the free throw line or extended out the baseline. That causes him to want to turn around and make a drive to the basket rather than using a drop-step type move or his running hook shot, which have proven relatively successful.

Part of that responsibility goes to his teammates and the coaching staff as well. No post player can seal his man forever or stay in the key, so teammates have to get the ball to Mason and our other post players when they have good position rather than wait until he is pushed out or forced out due to the threat of 3 seconds in the key. I do recall one great entry pass to Mason in the middle of the key and believe he was fouled even before he shot. Hopefully, there will be more of that going forward, as I would prefer that he and Miles not have to make very complicated moves after the catch.

Billy Dat
11-23-2011, 12:27 PM
I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.

I agree about the second half, but I think we operated pretty effectively mid post (see below) in the first half and then Michigan made that a focus and we had to adjust.

Watching game in and game out, Mason has made a lot more progress then he may have shown in the stretches you have paid closest attention to. However, your observations underscore that his goal should be to get to a level of consistency where, no matter which games you watch and which stretches of those games you watch, he is a meaningful offensive presence. That is a likely unattainable goal, but worth striving for.

All that being said, he's really coming along, as is Kelly. Kelly busted out some bona-fide Kevin McHale low post footwork and upfakes last night in a first half sequence where he drew a foul on the third fake. Mason has also been effective catching and operating. The difference between Kelly and Mason and, say, Zeller, is that we aren't setting them up in seal and catch situations on the block but rather isolating them mid lane or foul line extended trying to let them use their ball-handling as an advantage. I agree that the term "Mason's ballhandling" has been a historical oxymoron but he's made a big leap this year. I think both guys are more effective catching and operating off the baseline...more mid post. You may feel that we can't be great with bigs who can't operate on the baseline in a traditional seal-and-operate-back-to-the-basket manner, but I don't agree. We'll see what happens, but I think we've got more post offense this year than we have had since Shelden graduated. The opposition will obviously pick up on this and send their guards and wings to try and strip them on the move, and they'll have to effectively redirect.

feldspar
11-23-2011, 12:28 PM
I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.

Which is why I say you're not making a complete evaluation of Mason's game. You're making an evaluation based on one game (and, really, one half). Michigan's defense took away the post-entry pass for pretty much the whole game last night. But if you had watched the Tennessee game, you would have seen Mason make a couple very strong moves to the basket from an entry pass, which we've also seen in previous games this year.

Even that being said, Mason doesn't have to make a post move and score every time to be effective. Like I said previously, there were several plays where he ended up getting double teamed and was able to kick the ball out to the perimeter with success. I recall an ESPN analyst or commentator remarking on something Mason said to him/her in an interview about his goal when he gets the ball this year: accomplish one of three things -- 1) Score, 2) Get fouled or 3) Get double teamed. I'd say he's been very successful at doing that so far, even in last night's game.

All I'm saying is that you're making some very sweeping generalizations about Mason, and this team's strengths and weaknesses, based on a single game (or two?), when most here have now watched six complete games.

nocilla
11-23-2011, 12:56 PM
I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.

feldspar laid it out pretty good. Last night you saw Duke take what the defense was giving them. The defense packed in to the post and Duke responded with scoring from the perimeter. Go and watch the Tennesse game from the night before and you will see what you are asking for. For extra credit you can watch the Davidson game and see even more.

Kedsy
11-23-2011, 01:20 PM
I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.

That's because Michigan played a lot of zone and double-teamed the post after every catch. Overall, so far this season, inside scoring has been much more of a focus than it has been over the past five years.

DevilYouthCoach
11-23-2011, 01:20 PM
Which is why I say you're not making a complete evaluation of Mason's game. You're making an evaluation based on one game (and, really, one half). Michigan's defense took away the post-entry pass for pretty much the whole game last night. But if you had watched the Tennessee game, you would have seen Mason make a couple very strong moves to the basket from an entry pass, which we've also seen in previous games this year.

Even that being said, Mason doesn't have to make a post move and score every time to be effective. Like I said previously, there were several plays where he ended up getting double teamed and was able to kick the ball out to the perimeter with success. I recall an ESPN analyst or commentator remarking on something Mason said to him/her in an interview about his goal when he gets the ball this year: accomplish one of three things -- 1) Score, 2) Get fouled or 3) Get double teamed. I'd say he's been very successful at doing that so far, even in last night's game.

All I'm saying is that you're making some very sweeping generalizations about Mason, and this team's strengths and weaknesses, based on a single game (or two?), when most here have now watched six complete games.



I think Mason's Option #2 -- Getting Fouled -- is working for the opposing team so far -- except when Ryan Kelly is able to grab the rebound. I fear that that option is going to be used over and over by defenses until Mason gets better at free throws. A real Achilles heel for Mason right now. Why can't good coaching fix that, I wonder?

UrinalCake
11-23-2011, 02:14 PM
I watched last nights game pretty close. I do not recall a single play in the second half where an entry pass was made and a post move to score was attempted, much less actually made.

It's not a focus at this time, and all I'm trying to say is that it will have to become a focus for this team to win a title.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. The inside guys just need to score enough to keep the defenses honest. Ideally they'll draw some defensive attention to give the perimeter shooters some more room to operate, and be able to score some points when the outside shots aren't falling. Whether they do this through alley-oops, short jumpers, catching the ball 15 feet out and shooting a running hook, etc. doesn't really matter. They don't NEED to perform traditional back-to-the-basket post moves in order to give us balance, they just need to score somehow.

One could easily point to 2010 as a year we succeeded without a traditional post scorer. Z and Thomas gave us just enough presence that the defense couldn't ignore them (like you could with, say, Dave McClure) and you had to always keep a body on them to keep them off of the boards.

UrinalCake
11-23-2011, 09:56 PM
I can't help but wonder if Thornton's foul rate is actually encouraged by the coaching staff.

I agree, I think the coaches want Tyler to play really aggressive defense and not worry about how many fouls he picks up. He rarely commits shooting fouls, they're mostly far away from the basket, so I think they want him to try and generate some turnovers and create havoc. Even when he doesn't foul he gambles a LOT - often leaving his man to try to draw a charge from a big or strip the ball away from someone else. If the offense were to recognize this then they could get a wide open shot. But Tyler sees the whole floor really well and has a knack for gambling at the right times. That's his role right now, and there's no need for him to play more minutes with the other guys that we have.