Miles Plumlee = Casey Sanders

[Mudge]

Same height. Same build. Same athleticism. Same skills. Same hands.

I like this kid; he gives his all, all the time, he's smart (he knows how to spell his coach's name;)), he's earnest, he's tough, he's a team player, he has flashes of excellence. I like that commentator (and former NBA scout) Jimmy Dykes sees potential greatness in him, and keeps complimenting him, saying that as soon as (if?) he gets the same confidence that Mason has, he is going to be nearly unstoppable... but, I think this misses one important element: Much like Casey Sanders, who also had the potential for greatness, I think Miles is stymied by his hands.

[Kedsy]

Same height. Same build. Same athleticism. Same skills. Same hands.

I think this is a stretch. They don't have the same build -- Casey was a little taller and seemed a lot skinnier. Miles has a much better jump shot and notwithstanding the many criticisms he gets from DBR posters, he has a much better all-around offensive skills. Casey was a much better shotblocker. Miles is a much better rebounder. Casey was faster. Miles is stronger. "Hands" is a very subjective thing, but I think Miles's hands are much better than Casey's were.

Really, other than them both being tall and athletic, I don't see much of a comparison at all.

[juise]

I think that a more appropriate thread title would be Miles Plumlee's hands = Casey Sanders' hands. I'm not sure that I even would agree with that statement, but I definitely don't think it's fair to equate the two as players.

Build: Miles is more muscular than Casey and much more broad across the chest.

Athleticism: Casey had a great reach and good hops for someone his size. Miles is an insanely good jumper and runs very well. Miles is definitely more athletic in my mind.

Skills: Today Miles took his man off the dribble and hit a 15-foot jumper. He's also hit a couple threes in his career. These are not consistent skills, but they are definitely skills that Casey did not exhibit. We may be more apt to remember the dunks and blocks, but it's not fair to say that Miles does not possess other skills.


Overall, I think that Miles is a better player than Casey. Unfortunately, I think that his more advanced skill set has tempted him to force some plays and take some shots (fadeaway jumpers) that have diminished his play in fans' minds. His ceiling may be close to Casey's ceiling in overall value, but I definitely think that Miles is going to spend this season at a higher level than Casey ever reached.

[gam7]

I think this is a stretch. They don't have the same build -- Casey was a little taller and seemed a lot skinnier. Miles has a much better jump shot and notwithstanding the many criticisms he gets from DBR posters, he has a much better all-around offensive skills. Casey was a much better shotblocker. Miles is a much better rebounder. Casey was faster. Miles is stronger. "Hands" is a very subjective thing, but I think Miles's hands are much better than Casey's were.

Really, other than them both being tall and athletic, I don't see much of a comparison at all.

I agree with most of this but would go even further (as juice did) - in terms of athleticism, Casey was a fast runner for his size, but other than that, he did not seem very athletic to me. I think Miles is much more athletic than Casey was.

With respect to "hands," I'd sum up my comparison this way: I was not confident that Casey could even catch a pass thrown to him. With Miles, I am more confident that he'll catch a pass, but am also confident that the ball will be stripped before he has an opportunity to finish.

[Mudge]

I think this is a stretch. They don't have the same build -- Casey was a little taller and seemed a lot skinnier. Miles has a much better jump shot and notwithstanding the many criticisms he gets from DBR posters, he has a much better all-around offensive skills. Casey was a much better shotblocker. Miles is a much better rebounder. Casey was faster. Miles is stronger. "Hands" is a very subjective thing, but I think Miles's hands are much better than Casey's were.

Really, other than them both being tall and athletic, I don't see much of a comparison at all.

Sanders was always listed at 6'11"; Miles has been variously listed as 6"10 or 6"11-- tonight, for example, Mason was even characterized at both heights, at different moments in the same game, by Dykes-- but really, the difference here is not enough to matter.

Both of these guys started out thinner, and got thicker as they aged-- MP1 somewhat more than Sanders, but look at video of CS from freshman year to senior year, and you will see a similar thickening.

I wish your last statement were true-- I want it to be true-- but it just ain't so... this is the real essence of the post... all of the other physical characteristics are subordinated to this one overriding concern-- and it remains the determinant factor on MP1's ultimate ceiling.

[DukieTiger]

For those curious:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=casey-sanders&i=1&p1=miles-plumlee

I happen to think Miles will make strides to reach his ceiling this year, which is definitely higher than Casey Sanders'.

[Mudge]

I think that a more appropriate thread title would be Miles Plumlee's hands = Casey Sanders' hands. I'm not sure that I even would agree with that statement, but I definitely don't think it's fair to equate the two as players.

Build: Miles is more muscular than Casey and much more broad across the chest.

Athleticism: Casey had a great reach and good hops for someone his size. Miles is an insanely good jumper and runs very well. Miles is definitely more athletic in my mind.

Skills: Today Miles took his man off the dribble and hit a 15-foot jumper. He's also hit a couple threes in his career. These are not consistent skills, but they are definitely skills that Casey did not exhibit. We may be more apt to remember the dunks and blocks, but it's not fair to say that Miles does not possess other skills.


Overall, I think that Miles is a better player than Casey. Unfortunately, I think that his more advanced skill set has tempted him to force some plays and take some shots (fadeaway jumpers) that have diminished his play in fans' minds. His ceiling may be close to Casey's ceiling in overall value, but I definitely think that Miles is going to spend this season at a higher level than Casey ever reached.

Your first statement is probably correct.

But there is very little difference between them on athleticism-- Casey was a phenomenal runner and leaper, just like Miles. That play that Miles made to block a shot on the drive down the lane tonight is exactly like some that Casey used to make. I will grant that Miles has made a few more mid-range jumpers in his career than Casey ever made... but in the most important area of the floor (close to the basket), ability to grasp rebounds, errant shots, putbacks, etc.... Miles has the same skills as Casey had.

[Reilly]

Miles = Casey
Rivers = Jason Williams
Mason = Alaa
Tyler T = Sean Dockery
Seth = Scheyer
Josh = John Smith
Dre = Ricky Price
Murphy = Taymon
RKelly = DFerry
Marshall = Clay Buckley

[Mudge]

Miles = Casey
Rivers = Jason Williams
Mason = Alaa
Tyler T = Sean Dockery
Seth = Scheyer
Josh = John Smith
Dre = Ricky Price
Murphy = Taymon
RKelly = DFerry
Marshall = Clay Buckley

Many good ones, though I think Dawkins is a faaaar better outside shooter than Price.

[Grey Devil]

Many good ones, though I think Dawkins is a faaaar better outside shooter than Price.

My thought exactly.

And I would add that Seth is more like Duhon than Scheyer....

Grey Devil

[Reilly]

Andre = Price ...

... is an impressionistic take on unrealized potential and what could have been (yet, what still might be) ...

... stepping on the sideline w/ the ball in your hands as you start your move = disappearing in the corner ...

... all the tools, will it all come together ....

* Dawkins is at 41% on 3's for his career; in his breakout soph (14 ppg) year, RPrice shot 39% on 3's (33% for career on 3's)

[DukieInBrasil]

Skills: Today Miles took his man off the dribble and hit a 15-foot jumper. He's also hit a couple threes in his career. These are not consistent skills, but they are definitely skills that Casey did not exhibit. We may be more apt to remember the dunks and blocks, but it's not fair to say that Miles does not possess other skills.

1 to be exact. He's 1-1 lifetime on 3pt shots. The best 3pt shooter in Duke history ;)

[Saratoga2]

Whatever not having good hands means anyway. I believe it is more about lack of reaction to the game situations, the thought process of basketball. Some like Kyrie and Jon have it while others like Miles and Casey before him didn't. Bringing the ball down where it can be stripped is one problem. Needing to take a dribble to settle oneself is another. Miles just doesn't seem like he anticipates what will happen next. Physically he is great and I don't believe relatively small hands to be the problem. Perhaps he just tightens up under game pressure situations. After 3 1/4 years of play it would have improved if it was going to.

[sagegrouse]

.... in making comparisons:

Plumbeard = Zoubeard +/-

sage

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Really, other than them both being tall and athletic, I don't see much of a comparison at all.


.... in making comparisons:

Plumbeard = Zoubeard +/-

sage
There is one more very important similarity. They all wear National Championship rings! And Miles might even get a second one this season :cool:

[CDu]

Sanders was always listed at 6'11"; Miles has been variously listed as 6"10 or 6"11-- tonight, for example, Mason was even characterized at both heights, at different moments in the same game, by Dykes-- but really, the difference here is not enough to matter.

Both of these guys started out thinner, and got thicker as they aged-- MP1 somewhat more than Sanders, but look at video of CS from freshman year to senior year, and you will see a similar thickening.

I wish your last statement were true-- I want it to be true-- but it just ain't so... this is the real essence of the post... all of the other physical characteristics are subordinated to this one overriding concern-- and it remains the determinant factor on MP1's ultimate ceiling.

Sanders did bulk up from freshman to senior year. But he came to Duke probably 25-30lbs lighter than Plumlee as a freshman (maybe more). He was Henson-like skinny. Sanders bulked up to be probably 10-15lbs lighter than Plumlee is now. When you factor in the extra inch of height and (I suspect) reach differences, Plumlee has always been substantially less skinny than Sanders. Though the difference was certainly greater earlier in their careers.

Plumlee is also much more competent when dealing with contact. Sanders simply crumpled to the ground with the slightest contact. Plumlee may not be Brand-like in playing through contact, but he's much stronger. Miles also is a far superior shooter. And he's much more coordinated. Sanders just always seemed awkward and gangly. Miles has never seemed that way.

Basically, Sanders as a senior was about as productive as Miles as a sophomore (but with better shotblocking skills). But Sanders as a freshman, sophomore, and junior was well behind sophomore Miles.

There are similarities - neither has the best hands and both are more athlete than player. But I think Miles is closer to player than Sanders. Part of that is because I think he's stronger and more coordinated, and I think he's actually a better athlete. But part of it is that he has a bit more basketball skill too.

[Devilsfan]

Ryan does remind me of Ferry.
Thorton reminds me of Wojo. Tenacious on D.
Dre has made better decisions than Ricky, enough said.
Austin is competitive like JWil but has a special kind of swagger that I am growing to really like.
Seth reminds me of Marty Clark
Miles reminds me lot of Taymon D.
Mason is a McRob type.

[wk2109]

Whatever not having good hands means anyway. I believe it is more about lack of reaction to the game situations, the thought process of basketball.

I COMPLETELY agree. I've always thought the game was always going a little too quickly for Miles, or maybe he was just thinking too much (or a little bit of both). It seemed during the China/Dubai trip and C2C that the game had finally slowed down for him, but now I'm a little less sure of that. Certain parts of the game don't seem to be instinctual for him.

I'd say the same goes for Austin when it comes to the drive-and-kick-or-shoot situations. That part of the game will hopefully slow down for him.

[dukelifer]

Ryan does remind me of Ferry.
Thorton reminds me of Wojo. Tenacious on D.
Dre has made better decisions than Ricky, enough said.
Austin is competitive like JWil but has a special kind of swagger that I am growing to really like.
Seth reminds me of Marty Clark
Miles reminds me lot of Taymon D.
Mason is a McRob type.

Seth and Marty Clark? Don't see that at all. Marty was 6' 6". If Seth had his current skill set and was 6' 6" he would be locked out of the NBA right now.

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, a lot of these comparisons seem WAY off to me. Murph (an inside/outside SF/PF) and Tamon (a banging physical big)? Totally and completely different players. Seth (leading freshman scorer in the country with a sweet shot and shifty handle) and Marty Clark (a reserve with some general ability)? No way. And Mason is way more focused on playing closer to the basket and as a traditional "big" than McRoberts was.

As for the original... while they are very different (Miles would break Casey in HALF) Casey and Miles DO seem to have similar hands/basketball IQ/physical IQ. There are times they seem to be FIGHTING the ball with their hands, which is depressing... they frequently bobble rebounds out of bounds or right into opposing player hands But as someone else noted, they wear on those hands a national title ring, which is pretty sweet:)

[Kedsy]

Yeah, a lot of these comparisons seem WAY off to me. Murph (an inside/outside SF/PF) and Tamon (a banging physical big)?

To be fair to the OP, he compared Miles Plumlee (not Alex Murphy) to Taymon Domzalski. I'm still not crazy about the comparison (nor about the Seth/Marty Clark comparison; nor do I think Mason reminds of McRoberts; and Andre is nothing like Ricky Price), but it's better than you've given him credit for.

[COYS]

My thought exactly.

And I would add that Seth is more like Duhon than Scheyer....

Grey Devil

Really? Duhon couldn't shoot particularly, but was an incredible on the ball defender (spoiled us, really) and got lots of assists. Seth is not a bad on the ball defender, but is really sneaky when defending off the ball and can shoot the lights out on offense. Duhon was a defense and pass first guard who always struggled to score for himself. Seth can score for himself all day long and is learning how to be a good defender and passer. He is also a shooting guard who is learning to play point while Duhon was always wired to be a pass-first point guard. Scheyer and Curry aren't perfectly analogous, for sure, but I see far more similarities between Scheyer and Curry than Duhon and Curry.

[zack2014]

Seeing as Marshall hasn't played yet, I see his closest comparison being Scheyer. This being based completely on facial expressions.

[Reilly]

... Murph (an inside/outside SF/PF) and Tamon (a banging physical big)? ...

OK, Nick Horvath can play Murphy in "Duke Basketball 2011-2012: The Movie" ...

[Reilly]

To be fair to the OP, he compared Miles Plumlee (not Alex Murphy) to Taymon Domzalski. ... and Andre is nothing like Ricky Price),....

I believe the original poster compare Miles to Casey.

As explained above, the Andre/RPrice comparison is one of unfulfilled (to date, for Andre, still hoping) potential for a wing player. I saw the flashes with RPrice that sophomore year ... and thought we had a *superstar* ... get the same feeling about Andre, and hope he does it. That's the main point of comparison, and the fact they are a 6-6, 190 G/F and a 6-4, 200 G ... although Ricky's game of course more driving (90 made 3's, 292 made 2's) while Andre is a jump shooter (111 made 3's, 60 made 2's).

[Kedsy]

I believe the original poster compare Miles to Casey.

Yes, I suppose it depends on how "O" we're talking about. The poster who Lord Ash was responding to compared Miles to Taymon, and Lord Ash incorrectly thought he said Murphy instead of Miles. I was attempting to correct the misconception.

[MChambers]

OK, Nick Horvath can play Murphy in "Duke Basketball 2011-2012: The Movie" ...
If Murphy is as good as Nick was in the summer pickup games, we'll be unstoppable.

[Lord Ash]

The Murph/Taymon comparison came later, around post 7. There were just a number of them scattered amongst all the posts that really struck me as way off.

[Kedsy]

The Murph/Taymon comparison came later, around post 7. There were just a number of them scattered amongst all the posts that really struck me as way off.

Ah, I see it now. Actually it came earlier. I thought you were responding to post 17, where someone compared Miles to Taymon. I apologize for doubting your reading acumen.

[jamesfrommaiden]

I never thought about it. I guess that is because I don't see anything that reminds me of Casey in MP1's game. Casey was longer and had more straight line speed. He also had hands that weren't like stone, but reminded me of two bricks attached to the end of his arms. Milles is quicker. More fundamentally sound on the offensive end. Bad hands, but a better athlete. Much stronger. I just wish we had a Carlos Boozer to come back and play for the Devils like we did for the NCAA in '01. Keep up the good work Miles! Great effort against the Vols. All the hard work combined with that intensity is going to pay off.

[MulletMan]

There is absolutely no comparison between Casey Sanders and Miles Plumlee. Casey Sanders was somewhat useful for a one month stretch during his Duke career... no offense intended, but them's the facts. Miles Plumlee has been increasing his effectiveness and game for the past 3 years and has seen minutes and starts that Sanders didn't even sniff. For anyone who thinks that their games are similar, I would urge you to try to find some games from the 2000-2001 season before the ACC and NCAA tourneys, and look at Casey in game settings... that film should take you roughly 10 minutes to watch.

Please.

[hq2]

Don't think Miles is quite as bad as Casey, but he does have hand problems. I always felt sorry for Casey; to have a great
athletic body like that and terrible hands must have been incredibly frustrating. He and Willie Hodge were both like that,
and I always felt for both of them. They both tried so hard, but simply couldn't hang on to the ball. It was sad to watch both.

[gumbomoop]

Although I don't disagree that Casey had bad hands, my recollection is that Casey's [I]footwork was (a) worse than his hands, and (b) worse than Miles's footwork.

I, too, felt sort of sorry for Casey, especially when he'd get his legs tied up, pretzel-style, trying to figure out which was his pivot foot. He had bad balance, because he didn't intuitively know which was his pivot foot.

IMO, Miles has bad instincts more than bad hands or footwork, but the result is the same: inconsistent play, impressive one play, dismaying the next.

Anyone else recall Casey's pretzel-feet issues? My memory visuals seem pretty solid, but it was 10-12 years ago......

[MulletMan]

Although I don't disagree that Casey had bad hands, my recollection [including abundant and painful memory-visuals] is that Casey's footwork was (a) worse than his hands, and (b) worse than Miles's footwork.

I, too, felt sort of sorry for Casey, especially when he'd get his legs tied up, pretzel-style, trying to figure out which was his pivot foot. He had bad balance, because he didn't intuitively know which was his pivot foot.

IMO, Miles has bad instincts more than bad hands or footwork, but the result is the same: inconsistent play, impressive one play, dismaying the next.

Anyone else recall Casey's pretzel-feet issues? My memory visuals seem pretty solid, but it was 10-12 years ago......

My buddy and I used to have a running in game bet... he took times that Casey fell on the floor and I took fouls committed. It was pretty much a 50/50 split. Casey had no balance and very little feel for the game.

Miles is LIGHT YEARS ahead of where Casey Sanders ever was.

For his career, Casey played 1384 minutes and started 34 games in 4 seasons. He averaged 2.7pts, 2.5 rbs and 1.0 blocks per game. He was a career 52%FT shooter. In his best season... his last, he averaged 4pts and 5rbs per game. He committed 238 fouls in his career and DQ'd 8 times. He committed 85 TOs. He scored a total of 336pts (0.24ppm played)

For his career, Miles has played 1535 minutes and started 44 games in just over 3 seasons. He has averaged 4.3pts, 4.2rbs, and 0.5 blocks per game. In his best completed season, he averaged 5pts and 5rbs per game. He is currently averaging 7pts and 6rbs this season. He has committed 238 fouls thus far and DQ'd 5 times. He has committed 106 TOs. He has scored a total of 459 points (0.3ppm played).

Not only are their games not similar, minus a few bobbled balls, but the stats seem to bear out that Miles, only through his Junior year, is a much larger contributor than Casey ever was. Furthermore, I really don't think it can be understated just how terrible Casey's hands were. Remember... he was getting feeds from JWill and Duhon! Miles has played roughly eight games of his entire career with a true PG who could penetrate the lane and drop easy feeds to post-guys. Casey would lose balls out of bounds when three guys had collapsed onto JWill and were watching from the front row on the baseline. His hands were made of a non-maleable substance that made me wonder if he could hold a pencil to write.

[loran16]

A better comparison may be Brian Zoubek.

[niveklaen]

Really? Duhon couldn't shoot particularly, but was an incredible on the ball defender (spoiled us, really) and got lots of assists. Seth is not a bad on the ball defender, but is really sneaky when defending off the ball and can shoot the lights out on offense. Duhon was a defense and pass first guard who always struggled to score for himself. Seth can score for himself all day long and is learning how to be a good defender and passer. He is also a shooting guard who is learning to play point while Duhon was always wired to be a pass-first point guard. Scheyer and Curry aren't perfectly analogous, for sure, but I see far more similarities between Scheyer and Curry than Duhon and Curry.

I would equate Curry much more with Ewing than Scheyer. Scheyer's A/T ratio was insane, Ewing on the other hand shared Curry's limitations as a ball handler and a passer. (I do agree that Scheyer is a closer fit than Duhon, but he is still way off the mark.)

[Kedsy]

A better comparison may be Brian Zoubek.

Junior Year
----------
Brian Zoubek: 12.46 rebounds per 40 minutes; 5.9 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes
Miles Plumlee: 11.53 rebounds per 40 minutes; 4.9 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes

Senior Year, first five games
---------------------------
Brian Zoubek: 21.33 rebounds per 40 minutes; 11.73 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes
Miles Plumlee: 14.09 rebounds per 40 minutes; 6.36 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes


So, similar junior years, although Miles was a full offensive rebound worse. And this season Miles is doing better than many posters are giving him credit for, but he's nowhere near Zoubekian rebounding levels. People seem to think Z suddenly sprung into Zouperman, fully grown, at the Maryland game in mid-February, but really he'd been doing it all season. He just hadn't gotten as many minutes before he joined the starting lineup. Miles has a long way to go before his rates approach Z's.

[CDu]

So, similar junior years, although Miles was a full offensive rebound worse. And this season Miles is doing better than many posters are giving him credit for, but he's nowhere near Zoubekian rebounding levels. People seem to think Z suddenly sprung into Zouperman, fully grown, at the Maryland game in mid-February, but really he'd been doing it all season. He just hadn't gotten as many minutes before he joined the starting lineup. Miles has a long way to go before his rates approach Z's.

Yup. The big difference for Zoubek was that he stopped fouling as much. I'm not sure what caused that, but that was the key. He was able to stay on the floor for more minutes, and that resulted in bigger numbers.

[loran16]

Junior Year
----------
Brian Zoubek: 12.46 rebounds per 40 minutes; 5.9 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes
Miles Plumlee: 11.53 rebounds per 40 minutes; 4.9 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes

Senior Year, first five games
---------------------------
Brian Zoubek: 21.33 rebounds per 40 minutes; 11.73 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes
Miles Plumlee: 14.09 rebounds per 40 minutes; 6.36 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes


So, similar junior years, although Miles was a full offensive rebound worse. And this season Miles is doing better than many posters are giving him credit for, but he's nowhere near Zoubekian rebounding levels. People seem to think Z suddenly sprung into Zouperman, fully grown, at the Maryland game in mid-February, but really he'd been doing it all season. He just hadn't gotten as many minutes before he joined the starting lineup. Miles has a long way to go before his rates approach Z's.

Wrong statistic - per minute is misleading since it doesn't property describe the opportunities for rebounds each player had. Here's the statistics I'm talking about:
Zoubek Senior Year:
Defensive Rebound %: 24.4%
Offensive Rebound %: 21.6%

Miles Plumlee Jr. Year:
ORebound %: 13.3%
DRebound %: 17.8%

Miles so far this year:
ORebound %: 20.5%
DRebound %: 21.2%

Offensive Boarding rates above 20% are INSANE. If he could keep it up it'd be huge, assuming he could stay on the floor.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yup. The big difference for Zoubek was that he stopped fouling as much. I'm not sure what caused that, but that was the key. He was able to stay on the floor for more minutes, and that resulted in bigger numbers.
Zoubs stopped fouling because his feet and legs were finally healthy enough to move his feet instead of having to reach to stay with his man. That, and the "light went on" and he "got" the defense. Watching Zoubs and Lance from mid January 2010 on play our help defense in the lane was like watching a choreographed ballet; a true thing of beauty!

[CDu]

Wrong statistic - per minute is misleading since it doesn't property describe the opportunities for rebounds each player had. Here's the statistics I'm talking about:
Zoubek Senior Year:
Defensive Rebound %: 24.4%
Offensive Rebound %: 21.6%

Miles Plumlee Jr. Year:
ORebound %: 13.3%
DRebound %: 17.8%

Miles so far this year:
ORebound %: 20.5%
DRebound %: 21.2%

Offensive Boarding rates above 20% are INSANE. If he could keep it up it'd be huge, assuming he could stay on the floor.

Yes, it's the wrong statistic. However, I don't think Zoubek's 2009-2010 team played at a higher tempo (or gave up a higher opponents' FG%) than the 2011-2012 team. If anything, I'd say that Zoubek's per-40 would be UNDERestimating his rebound rate relative to Miles, not overestimating. So the difference in per-40 and % rates is due to some other factor. In this case, the difference is due to full-season versus first-five-game sampling.

You're referencing Zoubek's full-season senior year rebound %. Kedsy was referencing Zoubek's first five game rebound rates (which were MUCH higher than his rebound rate for the season). I'd imagine that Zoubek's rebound percentages in those first five games of 2009-2010 were much much higher than the 24.4% OReb and 21.6% DReb. Of course, the key distinction is that we played teams that were much worse in our first five games in 2009-2010 than we have so far this year (UNC-G, Coastal Carolina, Charlotte, Radford, ASU). So the numbers are skewed.

I do agree that the rebound rates for Miles have been pretty close to Zoubek's rates for the season. Not quite as good, but still really good. And Zoubek's rates were, as you said, insane.

[Mudge]

My buddy and I used to have a running in game bet... he took times that Casey fell on the floor and I took fouls committed. It was pretty much a 50/50 split. Casey had no balance and very little feel for the game.

Miles is LIGHT YEARS ahead of where Casey Sanders ever was.

For his career, Casey played 1384 minutes and started 34 games in 4 seasons. He averaged 2.7pts, 2.5 rbs and 1.0 blocks per game. He was a career 52%FT shooter. In his best season... his last, he averaged 4pts and 5rbs per game. He committed 238 fouls in his career and DQ'd 8 times. He committed 85 TOs. He scored a total of 336pts (0.24ppm played)

For his career, Miles has played 1535 minutes and started 44 games in just over 3 seasons. He has averaged 4.3pts, 4.2rbs, and 0.5 blocks per game. In his best completed season, he averaged 5pts and 5rbs per game. He is currently averaging 7pts and 6rbs this season. He has committed 238 fouls thus far and DQ'd 5 times. He has committed 106 TOs. He has scored a total of 459 points (0.3ppm played).

Not only are their games not similar, minus a few bobbled balls, but the stats seem to bear out that Miles, only through his Junior year, is a much larger contributor than Casey ever was. Furthermore, I really don't think it can be understated just how terrible Casey's hands were. Remember... he was getting feeds from JWill and Duhon! Miles has played roughly eight games of his entire career with a true PG who could penetrate the lane and drop easy feeds to post-guys. Casey would lose balls out of bounds when three guys had collapsed onto JWill and were watching from the front row on the baseline. His hands were made of a non-maleable substance that made me wonder if he could hold a pencil to write.

I read all of those stats you quote (thank you for compiling, by the way), and it only serves to gainsay your point-- those stats only convince me all the more that Miles is the modern version of Casey-- their production/minute played is REMARKABLY similar... yes, I'll readily admit that Miles is a more physically developed athlete now than Casey, and that Miles is somewhat better overall (and certainly should end up with better career total numbers, given that he still has 3/4 of a season to go), but the numbers in essence are very similar...

I added the things about body build and athleticism to help build the overall case (while also emphasizing something positive, as both of these players are/were highly gifted with size and athleticism), because I didn't want to post something that just said "MP1 hands= CS hands", since that would be perceived (on this board) as being too negative about someone who gives everything he's got to Duke's current team-- but really, that is the central point I was making... I think Jimmy Dykes' forecast for MP1 is of doubtful provenance, and all for this one reason.