MBB: Duke 77, Tennessee 67 Post Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here.

[feldspar]

Perhaps Tennessee will be a litmus test for Duke's perimeter defense. The Volunteers are shooting 49.1% from behind the 3-point arc (26/53) through two games, while Duke is allowing opponents to sink just 33.3% (22/66) through four games. One interesting item to keep an eye one will be whether Tennessee's 3-point offense or Duke's 3-point defense prevails.

Them: 0-8
Us: 7-18

We win.

[Jderf]

With his play so far (and with the recent Grantland article), a lot of people will be (and are) talking about Austin's decision-making, mostly saying that he needs to start passing out of his drives. I think that, on this particular issue, we are just going to need to be patient.

Even when Austin was at Winter Park, when he was scoring 29 points a game, when he had the ball in his hands nearly every single possession, he only averaged two assists per game. Just two. He's not a drive-and-dish player; he's a drive-and-drive player. He simply never needed to pass out of his drives in high school. So it's not just a matter of concentration or "making better decisions." It's a matter of adding a whole new aspect to his game. It's about teaching him to keep an eye out for open players while also keeping an eye on the rim. This is not something you do by just magically "paying more attention." It has to be learned. And that takes time.

But there's good news: we've been here before. Remember when Nolan came back for his junior year as a completely transformed player? Remember the one criticism people still made of Nolan that entire fall? "He dribbles into traffic." "He doesn't pass out of his drives." "He needs to make better decisions." By the end of the year, however, people didn't seem so worried about it. Why? Because our staff knows what they're doing. They know how to teach this stuff. It's their job. All we have to do is be patient.

[Skitzle]

Best game of the season to date by far.

Nitpicking:
1) we still need to be better guarding off the bounce
2) mason needs to make his ft
3) I'd like to see more out of Miles.

Tomorrow's match will be fun!

[Bob Green]

With his play so far (and with the recent Grantland article), a lot of people will be (and are) talking about Austin's decision-making, mostly saying that he needs to start passing out of his drives. I think that, on this particular issue, we are just going to need to be patient.

I need to pay closer attention tomorrow to observe his head during drives, is his head up? Or, does he drive with his head down? It is hard to execute the drive and dish unless your head is up.

[licc85]

-Ryan Kelly is once again the most efficient player on offense. I think he should be getting more touches in iso situations, he's very very difficult to stop.

-Quinn Cook looked pretty good in transition, he's very exciting when he's pushing the ball. Defensively, he's really trying, but not quite there yet. I like what I see from him. He'll be a contributor sooner rather than later.

-Seth once again was shaky handling the ball towards the end of the game, but as usual, came up with a couple of key steals to help build the late lead.

-Rivers looked terrible, then he hit 2 threes, then he looked terrible, then he took over. I expect this to continue for some time until he learns how to make good decisions with the ball.

-Mason was great, except at the free throw line. No surprise.

-Overall, our perimeter defense is doing a great job of closing out on shots, but having a tough time stopping penetration. It's going to be rough when we play against a great true point guard. Michigan has 2 outstanding guards in Trey Burke and Tim Hardaway, they will really test us.

[CDu]

Very sloppy first half on both ends, and a sloppy first several minutes of the second half.

We went with a lineup of Curry/Thornton/Dawkins/two bigs for several minutes and built a lead. Then Rivers came back in and finished strong.

It was an incredibly balanced scoring effort. Three guys got 15+, another guy got 10, and another guy got 8.

Curry and Kelly are such efficient scorers. Mason is much more confident this year, though he's still not a polished offensive player. Still, I feel so much more comfortable with him handling it in the post than last year.

Rivers showed some of why he's so highly touted in the second half. But for the first 25+ minutes of the game, I thought he made some very bad decisions. He's clearly capable of hitting any shot, and he knows it. That's a blessing and a curse, because we need him to figure out when to take those runners and contested 3s and when to set up a teammate. He's going to have no problem beating his man - when he figures out when to pass to the wide open man and when to shoot, he's going to be unstoppable.

Thornton is such a sparkplug defensively. Unfortunately, he fouls a LOT and brings very little offensively. Still valuable for the minutes he can provide, but I do wonder if he's going to continue to have a foul-imposed minutes ceiling.

For whatever reason, I feel like Dawkins just doesn't get enough shots. He's going to be up and down all year, I think.

Survive and advance. Let's play better tomorrow.

[Indoor66]

-Overall, our perimeter defense is doing a great job of closing out on shots, but having a tough time stopping penetration. It's going to be rough when we play against a great true point guard. Michigan's Trey Burke is really going to test us.

You can't have it all. We took away ALL of their 2 point scoring. When you do that you are vulnerable to inside scoring. We sacrificed some 2's to prevent all 3's and handily won the game. Sounds like the strategy worked quite well.

[CDu]

I need to pay closer attention tomorrow to observe his head during drives, is his head up? Or, does he drive with his head down? It is hard to execute the drive and dish unless your head is up.

He definitely seems to have made his pass/shoot decision before he starts his drive. On his two passes off drives (the alley-oop assist to Mason and a failed bounce pass to Mason in the second half) you could see the pass coming. And there were several other times when he put up a shot when a teammate (usually Mason or Kelly) was rolling wide open to the basket.

I was unaware that he averaged only 2 assists per game in high school. That seems ridiculously low for such a high-volume player. But it does explain why that part of his game is still a work in progress.

I don't have much fear that he won't figure it out. He's a terrific talent. I do hope it happens sooner rather than later, because when it does, he's going to be lethal.

[hq2]

Nice use of floaters by Austin and 'dre. Need to use that more; should put it up once they get by their
man instead of forcing it under the bucket. Opens up the lane for our bigs too.

[Saratoga2]

Another good win with 4 players into double figure scoring. Seth had an excellent game as he is becoming a cagy leader with ball handling, passing, scoring and reasonable defense. Obviously coach K trusts him. Kelly also was excellent out there and has the best overall ability for our bigs plus his length allows him to alter shots and rebound. At the end of game, he also can stay in with his excellent free throw shooting. Austin created defensive problems for Tennessee with his quick step and ability to score with either hand. Dawkins didn't get a lot of shots but his percentage was good and his defense will keep him in a lot of games. Mason looked good out there when he gets the ball close to the basket, but he and most other big men shouldn't be expected to dribble in from beyond 15 feet. Cook's ball handling wasn't exploited due perhaps to his defense, but he certainly can be a plus on offense. Miles had some good minutes and some not so good, which is consistent with his usual play. No one was injured significanly but our key guys did play a lot of minutes.

On the negative side, I thought Tennesse was able to get the ball inside and when they did they scored and/or they will quicker jumpers while our big may have altered shots but gave away some rebounds they should have gotten. Maeon and Miles both have great difficulty with free throws and it makes them a liability, especially at the end of game.I thought Mason would be subbed on offense and defense at the end of game, but coach left Mason in.

I thought another negative was the use of our bigs during the early part of the second half. We seemed determined to get the ball to Miles and Mason, often away from the basket. Miles did hit one jump shot, but the strategy backfired with traveling, lost balls and poorly taken shots.

Michigan played very well and with composure against Memphis. They will be a worthy opponent for us tomorrow as they defend well and are patient and careful with the ball. Should be a good one.

[feldspar]

-Quinn Cook looked pretty good in transition, he's very exciting when he's pushing the ball. Defensively, he's really trying, but not quite there yet. I like what I see from him. He'll be a contributor sooner rather than later.

Quinn is really good in transition, but struggles finishing at the rim. He'll get there, though.

[Faison1]

I really liked our toughness tonight. Those UT guys were pretty physical, and we didn't back down.

Some really good stuff to build off of....once Austin understands when to alley-oop and when to shoot on his drives, we are going to be TOUGH.

Miles perplexes me. He is so incredibly gifted, yet can't seem to put it together. He had one Iso where he moved so fluidly with the ball down-low, but then threw up an absolute piece of ugliness. Then he turned around and made an amazing block. Oh well....I'm cheering for ya' Miles!

[Bob Green]

Austin created defensive problems for Tennessee with his quick step and ability to score with either hand.

I agree with your overall post, but I disagree with the statement above. Austin Rivers has no left hand.

[loldevilz]

-Ryan Kelly is once again the most efficient player on offense. I think he should be getting more touches in iso situations, he's very very difficult to stop.

-Quinn Cook looked pretty good in transition, he's very exciting when he's pushing the ball. Defensively, he's really trying, but not quite there yet. I like what I see from him. He'll be a contributor sooner rather than later.

-Seth once again was shaky handling the ball towards the end of the game, but as usual, came up with a couple of key steals to help build the late lead.

-Rivers looked terrible, then he hit 2 threes, then he looked terrible, then he took over. I expect this to continue for some time until he learns how to make good decisions with the ball.

-Mason was great, except at the free throw line. No surprise.

-Overall, our perimeter defense is doing a great job of closing out on shots, but having a tough time stopping penetration. It's going to be rough when we play against a great true point guard. Michigan has 2 outstanding guards in Trey Burke and Tim Hardaway, they will really test us.

I agree with most of this. Every possession that Ryan Kelly has the ball in his hands, something good ends up happening. He definitely needs more touches.

I'm glad our defense figured them out. I thought that their superior athleticism might wear us down, but we showed some toughness by fighting back.

Next game against Michigan will be the toughest game so far. Hopefully our guys get the W.

[Saratoga2]

I agree with your overall post, but I disagree with the statement above. Austin Rivers has no left hand.

I thought Austin put up one of his driving layups by going to his left hand. Maybe I will need to look at the replay.

[roywhite]

Survive and advance. Let's play better tomorrow.

Well, Coach K and the team always look to improve, but I thought this was a pretty good win.

Tennessee had the look of some teams that play against us----they really, really wanted to beat Duke and played hard and physical.
An example, I think, of how we get the best effort from many teams.

One of the trademarks of the 2011-12 team could well be balanced scoring.
Seems like it so far.
It'll make it very difficult for teams to shut us down.

[jv001]

Our poor foul shooting will sooner or later end up costing us a game we should win. Mason, Miles and even Austin are not making a good percentage of their foul shots. I look for Coach K to do some offense to defense substitutions and get his better shooters in the closing minutes. GoDuke!

[Greg_Newton]

First of all, that was a terribly, terribly officiated game. I don't blame Dre a bit for being frustrated.

Anyway, this game was, again, a tale of two halves. We looked absolutely awful in the first half, and scraped by with hot 3-point shooting. I fail to understand why don't come out every game trying to establish either 1) the post, or 2) Dre with some JJ-plays. Also, it's one thing to take away the three, but it's another to not even get down in your defense stance while just chasing the guard into the lane. It should NOT be that much of an either/or choice; we're not quick enough to sell out like that, so hopefully K starts adapting his system to his players' defensive strengths.

I still think Curry is getting worn down by handling the ball so much... he was getting destroyed on defense in the first half and made another inexcusable turnover in crunch time. When he gets low on defense and puts a little extra into his offense, he's a great player. When he's too winded to do that, he's a liability. Honestly, I'd rather of 25 minutes of great-Curry than 40 minutes of tired-Curry, if that's what it comes down to.

Looked great in the second half, though. Kelly is finally getting comfortable/confident enough to flash some of those funky moves I've been preachin' about! :p

[Greg_Newton]

Mason played another near-perfect game. One of his turnovers was even a thing of beauty - he went to work on the left block, and every step and shoulder-blow for 4-5 dribbles was perfect until he got too excited and shuffled his right foot on the final pivot. I wish we'd run the offense through him down low every time, unless we've got a set play that demands otherwise.

I thought the play where his improvement was most clear was the first play of the second half. I mean, how many times last year did we see him drive from the top of the key without a clear plan, spin, then plant his spinning foot lateral to his pivot foot and either a) panic and travel, b) get stripped, or c) shoot a weak fadeaway because he was left with bad position and no more steps?

However, on this move, he a) held his pivot foot, b) was aware of his surroundings and under control, and c) made an incredible step with his right foot to complete the spin. If you watch it in slow-mo, you'll see him step 5-6 feet straight towards the rim - not easy or natural with a spin move - and plant his foot past the legs of the defender, thus working in a textbook drop step, and finishing through an (uncalled) foul at the rim. That right-foot step alone is a massive improvement from anything we saw of him as an underclassman, IMO.

[Ultrarunner]

Best game of the season to date by far.

Nitpicking:
...3) I'd like to see more out of Miles.

Tomorrow's match will be fun!

Not picking on you in particular but Miles is doing better than many on the board give him credit for especially his interior defense which doesn't show in the stats.

His two drives in the first half were a surprise and both were successful at drawing fouls from the defender. If you look at his game stats, he was even with (or slighly better than) his brother on a per minute basis. He is easily the best offensive rebounder on the team. Sadly, he performed worse at the ft line - a difficult feat but apparently attainable.

Still, given the minutes he had, Miles was quite productive.

[Newton_14]

Our poor foul shooting will sooner or later end up costing us a game we should win. Mason, Miles and even Austin are not making a good percentage of their foul shots. I look for Coach K to do some offense to defense substitutions and get his better shooters in the closing minutes. GoDuke!

As a team we need to improve with foul shots, with Mason needing the most work. K is using the offense for defense subs in the last 3 minutes though. He did it against Davidson and again today. He goes to one big with Ryan on offense and Mason on defense, with Quinn or Tyler as the extra guard. Hopefully the staff can work with Mason and get some improvement there. He gets good rotation on the ball but has trouble with distance control and the shot being too flat.

Solid win today. I like Tennessee's team. Well coached, very athletic with exceptional length at every position, and a tough, gritty defensive team. We were sloppy for the start of the game and the defensive intensity was lacking. Once we ratcheted up the defensive pressure, things turned. One thing we did well all game though, was take the 3 away. We basically forced them to drive and depended on the bigs to stop the penetration. The first 10 minutes we did a poor job with the help in the paint on drivers, but as the game wore on the bigs started making life more difficult. Tennessee attacked hard but we matched their toughness and once again blocked, altered, or pressure the Vols into a lot of misses.

Offensively we were very balanced again with the 4 double figure scorers, and a fifth with 8 points. Mason's foul shooting is the only thing stopping him from scoring in double figures every game. If he can improve by even a little bit there, it will make a difference. Getting double figures from 2 of the 3 bigs each game will make this a very dangerous offensive team. Our perimeter guys played well again as a whole. Andre was more active playing heavy minutes. I would like to see us get him more shots though. He can be a dangerous weapon if he works and the guys find him.

Austin was up and down but I loved the floaters and he kicked to open guys a few times as well. He finished strong the times he took it to the hole as well, and knocked down the 2 three's. Seth was solid again with 17 and 4, but also had 4 turnovers. Just needs to be a bit more careful with the ball.

I liked our toughness out there. With this schedule, by the time conference play starts, these guys will have been well tested. That surely will be a positive in ACC play.

Only question I have is, when did the puke blue color become part of Tennessee's colors??? Yikes!:eek:

[feldspar]

First of all, that was a terribly, terribly officiated game. I don't blame Dre a bit for being frustrated.



As a basketball official, I get a kick out of hearing fans utter this phrase, just as I'm sure Coach K and the staff must get a kick out of people saying "that was a terribly coached game." The multitude of intricacies and nuance that go into officiating a game would absolutely boggle the mind. Yes, there were some missed calls, especially the late knee when Dawkins was on the floor.

But I'd love to hear your armchair view of how, other than a few incidents or calls that didn't go Duke's way, how this game was "terribly, terribly officiated..."

[roywhite]

Official Boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205337316)

Balanced scoring as others have commented.

Four starters over 30 minutes played, and the other at 27 minutes.
Don't have the other games' stats in front of me, but is this the most minutes to go to the starters of our games so far?

As Greg Newton notes, Mason has made great improvement in what IMO was his biggest need---the ability to put the ball in the basket when he gets within 5 or 6 feet.
His jump hooks look good, he absorbs contact better, and is getting the hang of the up-and-under moves. And, oh yeah, the alley-oops are sweet.
Plus his rebounding and defense are at a high level.

[dcar1985]

I agree with your overall post, but I disagree with the statement above. Austin Rivers has no left hand.

No left hand is a stretch....he's drove left quite a few times this year already, that eurostep he had against Presbyterian comes to mind right away....thats not an eeasy move at all especially goin to your weak hand. He does prefer to go right....but like I've told people my whole life playin ball being a lefty and people saying I had no right..."I can go right but if you cant stop me going left why do it?"

[BobbyFan]

-Ryan Kelly is once again the most efficient player on offense. I think he should be getting more touches in iso situations, he's very very difficult to stop.

Agreed. When Kelly is playing well, our offense simply functions at a different level and becomes more efficient with better spacing. He has quietly taken up many of Singler's offensive responsibilities.

[CDu]

Four starters over 30 minutes played, and the other at 27 minutes.
Don't have the other games' stats in front of me, but is this the most minutes to go to the starters of our games so far?

Yes, although that's a bit deceiving. The same five guys played roughly the same number of minutes in the MSU game. The difference was that Miles happened to start (played only 14 minutes though) whereas Kelly came off the bench (played 30 minutes).

Guys not named Mason, Kelly, Dawkins, Rivers, and Curry played a combined 41 minutes tonight. They played 39 minutes in the MSU game.

[Newton_14]

Mason played another near-perfect game. One of his turnovers was even a thing of beauty - he went to work on the left block, and every step and shoulder-blow for 4-5 dribbles was perfect until he got too excited and shuffled his right foot on the final pivot. I wish we'd run the offense through him down low every time, unless we've got a set play that demands otherwise.

I thought the play where his improvement was most clear was the first play of the second half. I mean, how many times last year did we see him drive from the top of the key without a clear plan, spin, then plant his spinning foot lateral to his pivot foot and either a) panic and travel, b) get stripped, or c) shoot a weak fadeaway because he was left with bad position and no more steps?

However, on this move, he a) held his pivot foot, b) was aware of his surroundings and under control, and c) made an incredible step with his right foot to complete the spin. If you watch it in slow-mo, you'll see him step 5-6 feet straight towards the rim - not easy or natural with a spin move - and plant his foot past the legs of the defender, thus working in a textbook drop step, and finishing through an (uncalled) foul at the rim. That right-foot step alone is a massive improvement from anything we saw of him as an underclassman, IMO.

Great post. Mason is much improved and dare I say "miles" ahead of where he was last year.:cool: His post work tonight was really good. He is either finishing or drawing fouls at an incredibly high rate. The only thing killing him is the foul shooting. If the staff can find away to help him improve there, he can be a 15ppg 10rpg guy night in an night out. I hope we start going to him even more. Kelly was great tonight as well. I do wish we would work harder to get Miles the ball close in on the right block. He can be really effective with the little jumphook off glass. He is much better when he catches it down low on the block there. I do like Miles catching it at the high post as well. If he is too far out when he catches on the block though, he struggles.

I am still super estatic about the play of all 4 of our bigs thus far. It just makes us a much better team..

[Bob Green]

No left hand is a stretch....he's drove left quite a few times this year already, that eurostep he had against Presbyterian comes to mind right away....thats not an eeasy move at all especially goin to your weak hand. He does prefer to go right....but like I've told people my whole life playin ball being a lefty and people saying I had no right..."I can go right but if you cant stop me going left why do it?"

When Rivers goes left to the hoop, he still lays the ball up with his right hand. I have not seen him finish with the left hand so that is why I say he has no left hand.

[dcar1985]

When Rivers goes left to the hoop, he still lays the ball up with his right hand. I have not seen him finish with the left hand so that is why I say he has no left hand.

My example was a left hand layup...he had a couple against Belmont as well as they challenged him to go left and he took it and finished lefty

[licc85]

Yes, although that's a bit deceiving. The same five guys played roughly the same number of minutes in the MSU game. The difference was that Miles happened to start (played only 14 minutes though) whereas Kelly came off the bench (played 30 minutes).

Guys not named Mason, Kelly, Dawkins, Rivers, and Curry played a combined 41 minutes tonight. They played 39 minutes in the MSU game.

I'm a little worried that we're going to a 7-man rotation so early in the year, especially in a 3 games in 3 days situation. I hope our starters have enough gas to play all out for game 3. This is supposed to be a deep team, although I suspect our young guys will get their chance at some point this year once our schedule gets a bit lighter.

[Bob Green]

My example was a left hand layup...he had a couple against Belmont as well as they challenged him to go left and he took it and finished lefty

I didn't notice him finishing with his left hand, but seeing as you saw it, I stand corrected.

[licc85]

When Rivers goes left to the hoop, he still lays the ball up with his right hand. I have not seen him finish with the left hand so that is why I say he has no left hand.

I definitely remember a nice left handed lay in that he had in the davidson game, I remember commenting on how he used his left hand.

[CDu]

When Rivers goes left to the hoop, he still lays the ball up with his right hand. I have not seen him finish with the left hand so that is why I say he has no left hand.

Typically when the "has no left hand" comment is used, it's in reference to ballhandling (like Gerald Henderson). Lots of players shoot layups predominantly with their dominant hand. That being said, I think we've seen a few examples of Rivers shooting with the left hand. And I'm less concerned about which hand he shoots the layup with than I am about when he choose to shoot and when to pass.

[Atldukie79]

Over Coach K's tenure, I have had only 2 recurring coaching decisions that I consistently disagreed with...
The first was the extensive use of man to man in the early 80's because it cost us a few wins when wins were precious. However, I saw the light in the mid 80's when I understood this was about establishing a winnning program, a brand and an identity to recruit around. Score one (more) for Coach K!

The second recurring coaching decision that i have had issue with is...when to go "stall ball". I contend that K typically goes stall ball too early. (Believe me...I know you can't argue results!)

Tonight, however, I thought the timing was right...an 11 point lead with roughly 3 1/2 minutes to go made sense. Other than Dre's quick 3 point attempt off of an offensive rebound, we ran it fairly well and never seemed to be threatened.

[DukieInBrasil]

I agree with your overall post, but I disagree with the statement above. Austin Rivers has no left hand.
Sorry, that's not true. Watch the Davidson game again and you'll see Austin score with his left hand on multiple occasions. It may not be his strongest option, but he does have a left hand and scores with it to boot.

[House G]

At the risk of someone going Lloyd Bentsen on me, I see some of Larry Bird in Ryan Kelly. To me, he doesn't really pass the eyeball test as a great basketball player. Yet he seems to have a similar basketball IQ. Bird was relatively slow and could not jump, but he was able to compensate for these inadequacies by knowing how to play the game. Bird was also tough as nails and I can't think of anyone who wanted to win more than he. Finally, Kelly's height and range create matchup problems and open up the floor, often making his teammates more effective.

[Gthoma2a]

I like Tyler's intensity, but I am not sold on his being a lockdown defender yet. He is pretty good, but he got beaten out of position a few times and had to give up fouls. He impresses me with his effort, but I wonder how much of the lockdown defender reputation is just seeing him trying on the defensive end and getting people pumped.

[jipops]

There were some excellent defensive exchanges by Miles tonight. The communication he was offering up out there and the ability to recover on drives is something that will benefit us down the road.

[CDu]

At the risk of someone going Lloyd Bentsen on me, I see some of Larry Bird in Ryan Kelly. To me, he doesn't really pass the eyeball test as a great basketball player. Yet he seems to have a similar basketball IQ. Bird was relatively slow and could not jump, but he was able to compensate for these inadequacies by knowing how to play the game. Bird was also tough as nails and I can't think of anyone who wanted to win more than he. Finally, Kelly's height and range create matchup problems and open up the floor, often making his teammates more effective.

Maybe a little bit. Bird was a much better ballhandler and passer. And at the risk of quantifying an intangible quality, while Kelly has a good basketball IQ, Bird's was off the charts. I think Nowitzki is a better style comp of "tall, slowish, not a great leaper, but can get it done as a scorer."

[CDu]

I like Tyler's intensity, but I am not sold on his being a lockdown defender yet. He is pretty good, but he got beaten out of position a few times and had to give up fouls. He impresses me with his effort, but I wonder how much of the lockdown defender reputation is just seeing him trying on the defensive end and getting people pumped.

I've been saying this for a while. He's a very good help defender and good at reading the passing lanes. But he's not a great on-ball defender. He gets beaten fairly often and fouls a lot (he's averaging nearly 4 fouls per game in less than 20mpg).

He's a sparkplug energy guy, and he can make things happen. But he's definitely not a lockdown defender.

[OldPhiKap]

At the risk of someone going Lloyd Bentsen on me, I see some of Larry Bird in Ryan Kelly. To me, he doesn't really pass the eyeball test as a great basketball player. Yet he seems to have a similar basketball IQ. Bird was relatively slow and could not jump, but he was able to compensate for these inadequacies by knowing how to play the game. Bird was also tough as nails and I can't think of anyone who wanted to win more than he. Finally, Kelly's height and range create matchup problems and open up the floor, often making his teammates more effective.

I watched Larry Bird. Larry Bird was an idol of mine . . . .

Ryan is a gifted player who is still learning how good he can be. A big guy with an outside shot, and some mobility towards the basket. Long way to go to get to Larrt Legend, but I hope you're right!

[CDu]

I watched Larry Bird. Larry Bird was an idol of mine . . . .

Ryan is a gifted player who is still learning how good he can be. A big guy with an outside shot, and some mobility towards the basket. Long way to go to get to Larrt Legend, but I hope you're right!

Yeah, he just doesn't have nearly the diverse skillset of Bird. I think poor man's Nowitzki with Kelly.

[davekay1971]

Maybe a little bit. Bird was a much better ballhandler and passer. And at the risk of quantifying an intangible quality, while Kelly has a good basketball IQ, Bird's was off the charts. I think Nowitzki is a better style comp of "tall, slowish, not a great leaper, but can get it done as a scorer."

I expect RK would be immensely flattered at either comparison. Of course, a fair comparison would have to be made with RK at age 20-21 versus Bird or Nowitzki at the same age. I have no idea what kind of game Dirk had at that age, but Bird was stunning as a college junior. Off the charts good. Overall, though, I'd agree with CDu - RK has some similarities to Dirk (perhaps the better way to put it is that RK should watch Dirk closely to see what he has the potential to become). Bird was, well, in the conversation of best of all time...and you could see that coming while he was a junior at Indiana State.

Very good second half for our guys. They took a big step forward on defense. Curry, Mason, and RK all continued their very high level of play. Dawkins was good, quite good at times. Austin really showed us in the last 10 minutes of the game what all the hype is about. He's amazing at getting to the rim. Agreed with some above sentiments that he'll just get better and more problematic for other teams as he learns to choose his spots better and distribute when the time is right. Those two floaters he hit were just spectacular shots.

[watzone]

Win and advance. The Blue Devil continue their roll with a win and that is good! Anyhow, here is Coach K's post game comments - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/11/coach-k-talks-win-over-tennessee-in-maui/ Ryan Kelly video up next.

[basket1544]

Comparing Kelly to Larry Legend and to Dirk? Wow! Dirk was playing NBA ball at 20 years old so it's a bit difficult to compare. Ryan has the benefit of coming after both. No one 15 years ago was telling a 6'11" player to go ahead and shoot the three pointer. I think it is great and every time Ryan dribbles behind his back, it is showing another very tall player he too can be a ball handler no matter his size. I can't wait to see what Ryan does next!

[CDu]

I expect RK would be immensely flattered at either comparison. Of course, a fair comparison would have to be made with RK at age 20-21 versus Bird or Nowitzki at the same age. I have no idea what kind of game Dirk had at that age, but Bird was stunning as a college junior. Off the charts good. Overall, though, I'd agree with CDu - RK has some similarities to Dirk (perhaps the better way to put it is that RK should watch Dirk closely to see what he has the potential to become). Bird was, well, in the conversation of best of all time...and you could see that coming while he was a junior at Indiana State.

As a 21 year old, Nowitzki averaged 17.5 and 6.5... in the NBA. I definitely didn't mean to suggest Kelly is anywhere near Nowitzki - just that he's more that style. I'd agree with the way you said it.

Bird was just a unique player. He did EVERYTHING so well (shoot from anywhere, post up, pass, handle the ball, even defend on occasion) despite being too slow with no leaping ability. He was a freak.

[Newton_14]

I like Tyler's intensity, but I am not sold on his being a lockdown defender yet. He is pretty good, but he got beaten out of position a few times and had to give up fouls. He impresses me with his effort, but I wonder how much of the lockdown defender reputation is just seeing him trying on the defensive end and getting people pumped.

It's not his on-ball defensive that makes him a great defender. It's his help defense. He is the best on the team at being at the right position on the floor as a help defender and gets most if not all of his steals that way. He is very disruptive to what the other team is trying to do. He has come in and totally changed the momentum in several games in his short career. He is not a bad on-ball defender, but he is not an elite on-ball defender, and has a high foul rate at the moment. We can live with that with the depth we have.

Interestingly, his on-ball defense is much better in a pressing situation before the ball crosses half-court, than in halfcourt on-ball defense after the ball has crossed half-court.

Very pesky defender. I think the praise is justified.

[CDu]

It's not his on-ball defensive that makes him a great defender. It's his help defense. He is the best on the team at being at the right position on the floor as a help defender and gets most if not all of his steals. He is very disruptive to what the other team is trying to do. He has come in and totally changed the momentum in several games in his short career. He is not a bad on-ball defender, but he is not an elite on-ball defender, and has a high foul rate at the moment. We can live with that with the depth we have.

Interestingly, his on-ball defense is much better in a pressing situation before the ball crosses half-court, than in halfcourt on-ball defense after the ball has crossed half-court.

Very pesky defender. I think the praise is justified.

He's a good defender. He's just not a lockdown defender. Praise is justified - just not the oft-used term "lockdown defender."

[FellowTraveler]

Very happy with Kelly’s performance, and Mason’s. And Miles, too -- aggressive, energetic, physical, few mistakes.

Austin alternated between flashes of brilliance and deeply frustrating play. He’s a freshman, so he deserves some slack -- but he also dominates the ball at times, so poor decisions can derail the whole offense in a way that suboptimal play by Ryan or Andre or Miles doesn’t do, so it’s hard to to sometimes find it exasperating. Still, he seems to be forcing bad shots on drives less the last couple of games than he had been; that’s a good sign. Now if someone could just tell him about the existence of open three-point shooters when defenses collapse on his drives… (On one such drive tonight, Andre was wide open -- no defender within 15 feet -- on his right; Austin instead forced a tough pass to Mason, who was surrounded by the same Tennessee players who had collapsed on Austin.)

One play that really stood out to me: On the play with about 5 minutes remaining in which Seth came up with a steal and got fouled, the turnover was caused by Andre doing a great job of denying his man the ball, forcing the ball-handler to make the long, risky pass that Seth picked off. Maybe the best defensive play I’ve seen Andre make, and the kind that easily goes unnoticed, as his man didn’t have the ball, and Seth made good play for the steal.

***
Since Coach K said after an exhibition game that the team just plays better when Thornton comes in the game, I’ve heard television broadcasters say precisely the same thing at least once during every subsequent game, as though it’s their own original thought.

The Davidson & Tennessee games provide a reminder of the unreliability of assessments like “forget about his stats, the team just plays better when he’s in the game”: in both games, Thornton came in the game in the first half, and Duke was not more successful than it had been previously, and arguably much less so. Yet announcers didn’t mention this (even though the Davidson announcers had noted Duke’s alleged tendency to play better with Thornton upon his entrance into the game.)

When people take note when the team’s play improves when a player enters the game but do not make note when the team plays worse (or the same) upon his entrance, that creates skewed perceptions.

I say this not to criticize Thornton, who I like (though it’s probably true that I have less appreciation for the relative merits of his game than does the coaching staff.) I say it rather as an illustration of the ways our subjective observations can be misleading. And I very much include myself in that. For example: One of the points I’ve made most frequently in my limited posting on this site is that good things happen when Mason Plumlee gets the ball, a point based not only on statistical measures of his performance, but also on my subjective observations as well. But it’s true that I sometimes catch myself excusing or explaining away negative results of Mason getting the ball that don’t match the established narrative in my head.

[Newton_14]

He's a good defender. He's just not a lockdown defender. Praise is justified - just not the oft-used term "lockdown defender."

Fair enough, though I don't think I have ever used the word "lockdown defender" describing Tyler. Others have. But, no, K does not send Tyler in there to lock an opposing player down. He sends him in there to disrupt.

So we agree there.

[Greg_Newton]

As a basketball official, I get a kick out of hearing fans utter this phrase, just as I'm sure Coach K and the staff must get a kick out of people saying "that was a terribly coached game." The multitude of intricacies and nuance that go into officiating a game would absolutely boggle the mind. Yes, there were some missed calls, especially the late knee when Dawkins was on the floor.

But I'd love to hear your armchair view of how, other than a few incidents or calls that didn't go Duke's way, how this game was "terribly, terribly officiated..."

Wow. Seriously? If you're an official and thought that was an accurately, consistently called game... well, I just hope you're not working any Duke games.

I'm talking both ways, not just for Duke - contact was called EXTREMELY inconsistently, and there were more than a few calls they flat out missed. If I had time to go through the whole game, I could give you at least 20 plays. Off the top of my head:


-The Dawkins knee to the head you mentioned.
-The late play where Dawkins was literally punched in the face.
-The play in the first half where Miles clearly shifted his pivot foot twice before driving baseline.
-The play in the 2nd half where Ryan got shoved in the back on the rebound, the TN player picked up the loose ball and blatantly took 3 steps without dribbling, yet was rewarded with a foul.
-The play in the 2nd half where Ryan took a huge shove on the box out sending him 5' forward, another shove on the jump, and then was called for a phantom foul on the shot of the guy who pushed him and got the ball.
-Mason's and-1 (off a great post move) where the defender never contacted him. Perhaps a make-up call for his early spin-move, on which there was uncalled, significant contact?
-The rebound where Mason knocked the ball off of his own foot, but it was given to Duke.
-The phantom foul on Dawkins on a fast break following significant contact on a Rivers missed layup.
-The sequence preceding the late Curry-to-Kelly oop where Rivers lost the ball, and the defender had his hands on him the entire time, culminating with a flat-out, extended-arm shove.


Plus about 20 more plays where contact on finishes and rebounds was called incredibly inconsistently. You can talk down to me all you want, but it won't change the fact that this was a terribly officiated game.

[CDu]

Fair enough, though I don't think I have ever used the word "lockdown defender" describing Tyler. Others have. But, no, K does not send Tyler in there to lock an opposing player down. He sends him in there to disrupt.

So we agree there.

I wasn't saying you did. Your previous post was seemingly a counter to a comment that Thornton wasn't a lockdown defender. I was just clarifying that both your statement about praiseworthiness and the previous poster's statement about nonlockdownness were both accurate.

[ACCBBallFan]

Here are the +/- versus TN:

Duke TN +/- Min
65 53 12 30.4 Dre
61 49 12 28.3 Mason

61 53 08 27.4 Ryan
62 55 07 30.6 Austin
71 65 06 33.5 Seth
25 20 05 11.4 Tyler

27 26 01 16.6 Miles
11 10 01 08.3 Quinn

02 04 (2) 02.4 Josh

Though coach K played the starters together the most, 8 times for a total of 16.8 of the 40 minutes, with no other combination more than twice or more than 4 minutes, it was not the most effective lineup:

Occurs +/- Duke TN Min Line-Up

8 +2 33 31 16.8 Austin-Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan

1 +5 5 0 03.8 Seth-Dre-Mason-Miles-Tyler

2 +4 8 4 03.0 Austin-Seth-Dre-Ryan-Miles

1 (3) 5 8 02.6 Austin-Seth-Mason-Miles-Tyler

1 (2) 2 4 02.4 Austin-Seth-Miles-Quinn-Josh

1 +3 5 2 02.4 Austin-Seth-Mason-Ryan-Quinn

1 (1) 5 6 02.2 Seth-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 (2) 0 2 02.2 Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler-Quinn

1 +1 5 4 01.3 Seth-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Tyler

2 +4 4 0 01.2 Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan-Tyler

1 +2 2 0 01.0 Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles-Quinn

1 (4) 0 4 00.5 Austin-Seth-Dre-Mason-Miles

1 00 2 2 00.4 Austin-Seth-Dre-Ryan-Quinn

2 +1 1 0 00.2 Austin-Seth-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

1 00 0 0 00.2 Austin-Seth-Dre-Mason-Tyler


25 10 77 67 40.0 Total

On the bolded lineups that were 3 or more in absolute value, the name that occurs the most is

+3 Ryan Kelly

+2 Dre Dawkins

+1 Seth , Mason, Tyler, Austin and Quinn
-0- Miles

[House G]

As a 21 year old, Nowitzki averaged 17.5 and 6.5... in the NBA. I definitely didn't mean to suggest Kelly is anywhere near Nowitzki - just that he's more that style. I'd agree with the way you said it.

Bird was just a unique player. He did EVERYTHING so well (shoot from anywhere, post up, pass, handle the ball, even defend on occasion) despite being too slow with no leaping ability. He was a freak.

And i never meant to suggest Kelly has anywhere near Bird's skillset (hence the Bentsen reference). I was thinking more of his basketball acumen.

[Billy Dat]

Fair enough, though I don't think I have ever used the word "lockdown defender" describing Tyler. Others have. But, no, K does not send Tyler in there to lock an opposing player down. He sends him in there to disrupt.

I've been part of the "Tyler's D is overrated" camp this season, but tonight I had a different impression, one that is more closely tied to Newton_14's characterization of Thornton as disrupter. We caught a break when Golden picked up those two quick fouls and only played 4 first half minutes. When he started to get rolling in the second half, K put Tyler on him. More then anything else, he basically got in his face. He was denying him the ball, bumping him, getting physical with him, being a real nuisance. He's got a real toughness to him, he gets in other players' heads. He is winning me over on that alone. The game was getting pretty chippy at times, and I felt like Tyler and, to my surprise, Andre, were the ones pushing back. Granted, Andre was taking kind of a beating, but I liked the fight in him, as I did with Thornton. We needed that fight today.

I love how we are isolating Mason and Kelly on the elbow and letting them go to work. Both are proving, this year, to be quality ball handlers for their height and when matched man-to-man, most 6'10" guys and above are not going to be able to stay with them. As long as they protect the ball against the guards who dig down, and find open guys when those guards do collapse, then we'll reap a lot of offensive benefit from those efforts.

Based on our early games, if I was a coach with the right personnel, I'd be driving on us all day long. I hope that team's inability to finish at the rim against us is a continuing trend (Tenn missed a lot of lay-ups, as did MSU), but I'll credit their fear of being blocked by our tall frontline (yeah, yeah, that's the ticket).

The diverse reaction to Rivers on this board and in the media is really interesting. I feel like I am being objective when I say that his ability to beat guys off the bounce is unlike anything I have seen in a Duke Uniform since Jason Williams, including Kyrie, and that his ability to do so, and his threat to do so, put other teams' defenses at a huge disadvantage. Game by game, I see him getting better and better at passing, and being under control. He's 5 games into his freshman year. I love the kid's game.

Curry, Mason and Kelly are establishing themselves as every-game producers. Rivers is right there, too, and Dawkins seems like he finally wants to earn that title as well. We aren't a well oiled machine by any stretch, but we keep getting better. Michigan will be an interesting test as it is a completely different style.

Kudos to Coach Cuonzo. Man, that team plays hard. Looks like that was a good hire.

[feldspar]

Wow. Seriously? If you're an official and thought that was an accurately, consistently called game... well, I just hope you're not working any Duke games.

I'm talking both ways, not just for Duke - contact was called EXTREMELY inconsistently, and there were more than a few calls they flat out missed. If I had time to go through the whole game, I could give you at least 20 plays. Off the top of my head:


-The Dawkins knee to the head you mentioned.
-The late play where Dawkins was literally punched in the face.
-The play in the first half where Miles clearly shifted his pivot foot twice before driving baseline.
-The play in the 2nd half where Ryan got shoved in the back on the rebound, the TN player picked up the loose ball and blatantly took 3 steps without dribbling, yet was rewarded with a foul.
-The play in the 2nd half where Ryan took a huge shove on the box out sending him 5' forward, another shove on the jump, and then was called for a phantom foul on the shot of the guy who pushed him and got the ball.
-Mason's and-1 (off a great post move) where the defender never contacted him. Perhaps a make-up call for his early spin-move, on which there was uncalled, significant contact?
-The rebound where Mason knocked the ball off of his own foot, but it was given to Duke.
-The phantom foul on Dawkins on a fast break following significant contact on a Rivers missed layup.
-The sequence preceding the late Curry-to-Kelly oop where Rivers lost the ball, and the defender had his hands on him the entire time, culminating with a flat-out, extended-arm shove.


Plus about 20 more plays where contact on finishes and rebounds was called incredibly inconsistently. You can talk down to me all you want, but it won't change the fact that this was a terribly officiated game.

Saying a game is horribly officiated and that the referees are inconsistent because there were calls missed is like saying Duke is horribly coached or the players are horrible because some players missed some shots or committed some fouls. You're expecting perfection, when that's not the standard for quality officiating. There are six eyes on the floor trying to watch 20 hands and 20 feet and 10 bodies at all times. You do the math.

I read nothing in your post about an overall inconsistency in calling the game (Tennessee's bigs were allowed to push in the paint but ours weren't; Duke's guards handchecked all game but the refs called 10 handchecks on the Vols). All I saw was a bunch of specific plays you thought should get called one way or the other.

I'm not talking down to you. I do, however, find it very convenient for someone who is sitting in their barcalounger thousands of miles away watching a game on TV, limited to two or three camera angles to think they got every call "right" that the refs got "wrong" when they are just a few feet from the play, with a much better angle on things. Do I think the refs called everything right tonight? No, I've still yet to see any official call a perfect game, just as I've yet to see a coach coach a perfect game, where none of his players turn the ball over, miss a shot, or commit a foul. Is it okay to say things like "I thought that was a foul" or "Boy, that looked like a travel to me"? Sure.

But I'm also willing to concede that 1) Those guys know a helluva lot more than I do about calling a good basketball game (what to let go, what to watch for, what to call in order to keep the game in hand, etc) and 2) I'm watching the game on TV or from the stands, where my angle and view of the game is RADICALLY different from on the floor, a mere few feet away from the action. In my opinion, going out of your way to completely disparage three guys who are some of the best in the business just because you think you saw some plays differently when, in fact, you and almost everyone on the board and in the stands knows probably 1/100th of the ins and outs of calling a complete, consistent, accurate game to me just, I dunno, rubs me the wrong way, much as it rubs a lot of people here the wrong way when someone comes on the board and says "Coach K coached a horrible, inconsistent game tonight." It strikes me as incredibly arrogant. It strikes me as ignorant.

That's all I was trying to say.

[stixof96]

Tennesseee was far too successful driving the lane and got way too many 2nd and 3rd shots. Better stop that sooner rather than later.

[DukieTiger]

Tennesseee was far too successful driving the lane and got way too many 2nd and 3rd shots. Better stop that sooner rather than later.

I responded to this on the other thread, but Tennessee was successful driving the lane because we gameplanned to take away the 3. Sure, we'd like to limit 2nd chance points, but you also don't mention how many point-blank shots UT missed because they were seemingly bothered by our post defense. The defense is far from perfect, and had me frustrated any number of times tonight. They need to get better at communicating with one another and learn to maintain a certain level of intensity. But saying that it is a critical weakness of allowing another team to get into the lane, and not acknowledging that we held them to ZERO made 3pt'ers (and they've been averaging 10+ per game) is a little unbalanced.

[Olympic Fan]

With his play so far (and with the recent Grantland article), a lot of people will be (and are) talking about Austin's decision-making, mostly saying that he needs to start passing out of his drives. I think that, on this particular issue, we are just going to need to be patient.

Even when Austin was at Winter Park, when he was scoring 29 points a game, when he had the ball in his hands nearly every single possession, he only averaged two assists per game. Just two. He's not a drive-and-dish player; he's a drive-and-drive player. He simply never needed to pass out of his drives in high school. So it's not just a matter of concentration or "making better decisions." It's a matter of adding a whole new aspect to his game. It's about teaching him to keep an eye out for open players while also keeping an eye on the rim. This is not something you do by just magically "paying more attention." It has to be learned. And that takes time.


Jeez, I wonder what people want from Austin.

He actually averaged 2.2 assists a game at Winter Park -- and his selfishness didn't hurt too much as he led Winter Park to back to back 6-A state titles in Florida.

One recruiting guy told me not to worry about Rivers' assist totals -- it was a function of the offensive skills of his teammates. It's worth nothing that in his two national all-star games -- when selfishness is common and players love to showcase their offensive skills -- Austin had four assists in the McDonald's Game and four assists in the Jordan Brand Classic.

He had six assists in his second college game. He's averaging 2.4 assists through his first five college games -- which might not sould like a lot, but it's more than almost any Duke shooting guard in modern times averaged as a freshman -- a better per game average than Redick, Nolan Smith, Trajan Langdon, William Avery, or Seth Curry had in their first season at Duke (it's significantly better than Curry averaged as a freshman at Liberty). Heck, he already has just one less assist in five games than Andre Dawkins managed his entire freshman season.

I believe he IS doing his best to incorporate the drive-and-dish to his game. One reason his turnover total is too high is because he's getting into the lane and trying to make the pass (definitely not all of his turnovers, but a good number). He and his teammates are feeling each other out. Think back to the last play of the first half of the Davidson game -- Austin drove and tried to feel Kelly who was breaking open for the layup. But they misconnected -- Ryan was looking for the lob and Austin gave him the bounce pass.

All the anguish about Austin's decision-making is a bit ridiculous. He's a freshman with five college games to his credit and he's still getting comfortable with this team and with the college game. In Bobby Hurley's fifth college game, he had six assists and six turnovers. He had 18 turnovers in his first five games ...Jason Williams had 22 turnovers in his first five college games. Johnny Dawkins had 17 turnovers in his first five games (and seven more in Game 6).

Rivers has had 13 turnovers in his first five games.

I think we can live with that learning curve. Yeah, his decision making needs to get better, but that's true of almost every young player. I think his learning curve is normal or ahead of schedule, not some cause for concern or alarm.

[Kedsy]

Four starters over 30 minutes played, and the other at 27 minutes.
Don't have the other games' stats in front of me, but is this the most minutes to go to the starters of our games so far?

As CDu noted, it would probably be more appropriate to look at the minutes of our top five minute-getters in a game, rather than the starters. Looking at it that way, here's our season so far:

Minutes for top five minute-getters
---------------------------------
Belmont: 153 (1 point game)
Presbyterian: 110 (41 point blowout)
Michigan State: 161 (5 point game)
Davidson: 144 (13 point game)
Tennessee: 159 (10 point game)

So, really, it's on the high side but pretty consistent with our earlier games. Plus Miles had 17 minutes and Tyler/Quinn split 22. Josh played a couple minutes and the remaining three freshmen didn't play at all.

Looking at this minute distribution, which is typical of our early games, I am more convinced than ever that we'll be seeing a 7 man rotation come ACC time (at least for non-blowouts). With an 8th guy getting 8 or so minutes (probably Quinn, but maybe Tyler and Quinn swap places while still splitting 20 to 25 minutes a game) and the 9th guy (Josh or Alex or Michael) getting 2 to 5.

[DukieTiger]

Jeez, I wonder what people want from Austin.

He actually averaged 2.2 assists a game at Winter Park -- and his selfishness didn't hurt too much as he led Winter Park to back to back 6-A state titles in Florida.

One recruiting guy told me not to worry about Rivers' assist totals -- it was a function of the offensive skills of his teammates. It's worth nothing that in his two national all-star games -- when selfishness is common and players love to showcase their offensive skills -- Austin had four assists in the McDonald's Game and four assists in the Jordan Brand Classic.

He had six assists in his second college game. He's averaging 2.4 assists through his first five college games -- which might not sould like a lot, but it's more than almost any Duke shooting guard in modern times averaged as a freshman -- a better per game average than Redick, Nolan Smith, Trajan Langdon, William Avery, or Seth Curry had in their first season at Duke (it's significantly better than Curry averaged as a freshman at Liberty). Heck, he already has just one less assist in five games than Andre Dawkins managed his entire freshman season.

I believe he IS doing his best to incorporate the drive-and-dish to his game. One reason his turnover total is too high is because he's getting into the lane and trying to make the pass (definitely not all of his turnovers, but a good number). He and his teammates are feeling each other out. Think back to the last play of the first half of the Davidson game -- Austin drove and tried to feel Kelly who was breaking open for the layup. But they misconnected -- Ryan was looking for the lob and Austin gave him the bounce pass.

All the anguish about Austin's decision-making is a bit ridiculous. He's a freshman with five college games to his credit and he's still getting comfortable with this team and with the college game. In Bobby Hurley's fifth college game, he had six assists and six turnovers. He had 18 turnovers in his first five games ...Jason Williams had 22 turnovers in his first five college games. Johnny Dawkins had 17 turnovers in his first five games (and seven more in Game 6).

Rivers has had 13 turnovers in his first five games.

I think we can live with that learning curve. Yeah, his decision making needs to get better, but that's true of almost every young player. I think his learning curve is normal or ahead of schedule, not some cause for concern or alarm.


I love that people seem to get off on passing judgment on Austin (or even this Duke team as a whole) at this point in the season. Not sure what anyone expected from Austin/Duke after 5 games but I would say that he/they has/have performed about up to any rational expectations. People get focused on the negative and forget about the things that you just mentioned. Because it's Duke, the national media (and twitter-fans everywhere) want to go ahead and proclaim Austin a bust, proclaim Duke as overrated and a good, not great team. Meanwhile they are all kissing the arse of the player/team that they said the same things about at this time last year.

Blegh, sorry for the rant but it does get annoying and I for one am very happy with Austin's play this season. That does not mean he doesn't have room to improve, but I'd bet there aren't too many freshmen out there who are outperforming Mr. Rivers on a nightly basis, particularly with the gauntlet he's faced so far. He's going to be/is a stud. Chad Ford can kmfa.

*they highlighted the Duke/Tenn game during halftime of KU/Gtown and Gottleib was brief but complimentary of Austin tonight. Nothing new, but just wanted to throw out that not everyone is fixated on criticizing Mr. Rivers.

[DukieTiger]

As CDu noted, it would probably be more appropriate to look at the minutes of our top five minute-getters in a game, rather than the starters. Looking at it that way, here's our season so far:

Minutes for top five minute-getters
---------------------------------
Belmont: 153 (1 point game)
Presbyterian: 110 (41 point blowout)
Michigan State: 161 (5 point game)
Davidson: 144 (13 point game)
Tennessee: 159 (10 point game)

So, really, it's on the high side but pretty consistent with our earlier games. Plus Miles had 17 minutes and Tyler/Quinn split 22. Josh played a couple minutes and the remaining three freshmen didn't play at all.

Looking at this minute distribution, which is typical of our early games, I am more convinced than ever that we'll be seeing a 7 man rotation come ACC time (at least for non-blowouts). With an 8th guy getting 8 or so minutes (probably Quinn, but maybe Tyler and Quinn swap places while still splitting 20 to 25 minutes a game) and the 9th guy (Josh or Alex or Michael) getting 2 to 5.


I'm coming around to your point of view re: minute distribution, but I still think that between Quinn and MG/JH/AM you have 4 guys with skill sets and/or size that aren't present in the current top 7, so I definitely see those guys rotating between numbers 8 and 10 by the end of the year on an as-needed basis.

Tomorrow (in my mind) will be the first test of this theory (which centers around our ability or inability to make our opponents match up to us, rather than the other way around.) If we make Michigan match up with us, then I think we'll see a similar 7 man rotation with Quinn and Josh filling in briefly as #s 8 and 9 and it will mean that our size advantage will be resulting in a significant advantage on the boards. However, if the Plumlees and Kelly are having trouble defending against Michigan's style of play, I do wonder if we will see more of JH/MG/AM in the game to match up with all the guys Michigan seemingly has in the 6'6-6'9 range. This is the kind of scenario that makes me hesitant to define a set 7-man rotation, because I could see us needing one of those 3 guys (at least) at some point tomorrow. Of course, that might just be my hope (that those guys get to play) because I happen to like all 3 guys and want to see them on the floor. Ahh, such is life I suppose.

Go Duke!

[Kedsy]

Tomorrow (in my mind) will be the first test of this theory (which centers around our ability or inability to make our opponents match up to us, rather than the other way around.) If we make Michigan match up with us, then I think we'll see a similar 7 man rotation with Quinn and Josh filling in briefly as #s 8 and 9 and it will mean that our size advantage will be resulting in a significant advantage on the boards. However, if the Plumlees and Kelly are having trouble defending against Michigan's style of play, I do wonder if we will see more of JH/MG/AM in the game to match up with all the guys Michigan seemingly has in the 6'6-6'9 range.

I agree it will be an interesting test. My question is, if we're struggling, would Coach K be willing to throw a little-used freshman into the fire (obviously that's Mike and/or Alex, rather than Josh; though I don't know if Josh really has the skillset for it anyway -- he's really an energy guy rather than someone who can defend a smaller, quicker player). While Coach K has sometimes expanded a little-used player's minutes based on matchups (like Tyler last year a couple times), it doesn't seem to be his usual preference. Seems like either a player is ready for minutes in K's mind, or he isn't.

[Dukeface88]

Jeez, I wonder what people want from Austin.

He actually averaged 2.2 assists a game at Winter Park -- and his selfishness didn't hurt too much as he led Winter Park to back to back 6-A state titles in Florida.

One recruiting guy told me not to worry about Rivers' assist totals -- it was a function of the offensive skills of his teammates. It's worth nothing that in his two national all-star games -- when selfishness is common and players love to showcase their offensive skills -- Austin had four assists in the McDonald's Game and four assists in the Jordan Brand Classic.

He had six assists in his second college game. He's averaging 2.4 assists through his first five college games -- which might not sould like a lot, but it's more than almost any Duke shooting guard in modern times averaged as a freshman -- a better per game average than Redick, Nolan Smith, Trajan Langdon, William Avery, or Seth Curry had in their first season at Duke (it's significantly better than Curry averaged as a freshman at Liberty). Heck, he already has just one less assist in five games than Andre Dawkins managed his entire freshman season.

I believe he IS doing his best to incorporate the drive-and-dish to his game. One reason his turnover total is too high is because he's getting into the lane and trying to make the pass (definitely not all of his turnovers, but a good number). He and his teammates are feeling each other out. Think back to the last play of the first half of the Davidson game -- Austin drove and tried to feel Kelly who was breaking open for the layup. But they misconnected -- Ryan was looking for the lob and Austin gave him the bounce pass.

All the anguish about Austin's decision-making is a bit ridiculous. He's a freshman with five college games to his credit and he's still getting comfortable with this team and with the college game. In Bobby Hurley's fifth college game, he had six assists and six turnovers. He had 18 turnovers in his first five games ...Jason Williams had 22 turnovers in his first five college games. Johnny Dawkins had 17 turnovers in his first five games (and seven more in Game 6).

Rivers has had 13 turnovers in his first five games.

I think we can live with that learning curve. Yeah, his decision making needs to get better, but that's true of almost every young player. I think his learning curve is normal or ahead of schedule, not some cause for concern or alarm.

In fairness, I think "decision making" is broader than just the drive-and-dish, even if that's what everyone seems to focus on. There's also learning whether to drive in first place or to continue the ball motion, whether to stop the drive for a pull-up jumper, learning to manage the shot/game clock (read: stall ball), not to mention learning the defensive rotations.

However, you're probably right that people (including me) have been a bit too hard on him; it's not like he's the only one who's made some questionable calls. Even the upper classmen have had their share of bad passes, dumb fouls, poor clock managemnt, missed assignments and other mistakes. It's to be expected at this point in the year, and as you point out, Austin is already improving. I think a good bit of it comes from comparing him not just with Kyrie, but with Jon, Kyle and (Jr-Sr) Nolan as well. It probably isn't even concious; we've just become used to that level of polish on our playmakers, and not seeing it makes us think there's something wrong. I don't think it's limited to just Austin either, based on a lot of the point guard related angst on the boards. That's getting compounded by our schedule. Our early opponents haven't pushovers (our one "cupcake" so far just upset a ranked BE team). On top of that, we're (hopefully) going to play 3 top 20 teams in the next week, so there's this feeling that everything and everyone need to be in top form right the hell now. Of course this is totally unreasonable, but can you remember a time when fans and the media weren't?

[greybeard]

I really, really liked seeing both Rivers and Curry scoring inside the paint without taking it to the rim. I think that that is a killer aspect of the game. Tennessee's bigs seemed not to know how to handle it; I think few will. I also really liked Curry's fake of the three and putting it on the floor for a bounce and shoot. I said going into the season that I thought that that was key to Dre being all that he can be.

I think that dre needs to play more physically away from the ball on defense. Duke needs all the bulk it can get to counter the often over-the-top physicality that other teams are throwing at them--I don't know what the refs thought they saw when "they went to the video tape" (an inside joke for DC guys and New Yorkers) but I saw a big gratuitously stick his big butt square into a moving Rivers. That is an assault in addition to being a foul. One of Michigan State's bigs stomped on a guy and got away with it.

Thorton gave it back, Dre needs to also. Mason was unbelievable on the defensive board's in the second half and his brother was almost as good on the offensive board. They and Kelly fought like crazy on the defensive boards and on interior defense.

This was a great win. Make no misstake, Tennessee is a really, really good team, its offensive approach left guys with space to attack from the top, their changes of direction were performed with sharpness, were on the unusual side, and whomever was making them were long and fast. Curry comes back to the interior receiver and causes him trouble, often taking it away, as well as anyone I have seen. Surprised me. The kid is tough.

I thought that the key to the game was Rivers' threes. He was given space far enough from the baskiet that the defender thought was safe. I always thought when I played that catching it where one could score off the shot if it was yielded, you had to take it and knock a few down and then you owned your defender in one-on-one play. I thought that those two did that for Rivers. [I] was impressed that he used his skill and agility on the bounce to avoid a quick double team, and then gliding into the lane for floaters were daggers. Tennessee's bigs, who were looking to body Duke's inside players all over the paint, were stuck too far away to matter. Had they tried to contest from where they were defending (a) they would and did fail and (b) often left way too late to protect first and foremost against an easy drop-off dunk. We did not see much of the second because the first was so available and Rivers was deadly with that game, and Curry was knocking down those he took also.

I like that both were fresh because Thorton and, in particular, because Cook got time on the court, usually in partnership with Thorton. Cook will get better with more playing time like he got tonght, which will make Rivers and Curry fresh at close-out time.

There was very little easy on offense to Duke, except those floaters, and that is a credit to Tennessee's defense. As other's have said, very tough test, very good win, imo, great coaching by K and his staff. Oh, Kelly was sensational. Off the bounce in the circle at the top of the fouline, he looked a bit like dirk, in terms of poise, reversal of direction under control, choosing to shoot when he wanted, when he was ready; ran the floor, great at blocking and altering shots, got lough defensive rebounds, kept rebounds the other guys seemed to have within their grasp alive, and played physically, without seeming out of place and therefore more at risk of injury than other of the other bigs out there.

Much to like about tonight's win, which I thought was a real team effort, all out at that.

[HCheek37]

Here's a great breakdown from the guys at SCACChoops.com

http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=6503&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Huge bucket there and even though we let them come back from 8 down (we did get a stop on the next possession but then Miles shot an ugly jumper that started a 6-0 run for the Vols.

[superdave]

I still think Curry is getting worn down by handling the ball so much... he was getting destroyed on defense in the first half and made another inexcusable turnover in crunch time. When he gets low on defense and puts a little extra into his offense, he's a great player. When he's too winded to do that, he's a liability. Honestly, I'd rather of 25 minutes of great-Curry than 40 minutes of tired-Curry, if that's what it comes down to.

Very interesting thought. I do think they pull Seth off the ball some when Quinn or Tyler is in the game with him, and Austin initiates the offense some too. But your point about Seth getting worn down is a good one. He got attacked vs. Belmont as Coach K pointed out in the post-game. Seth is a calming influence on the offense, which is great because our offensive chemistry (reading one another, spacing, timing and location of screens) pretty much sucks right now. Seth is also a pretty good defender - he's got the scheme down, it's just a matter of executing for him. So he's our most evolved guard right now, which means he'll play big minutes. He has played 28, 24, 38, 34, and 35 minutes so far. He's averaging 2 fouls and 2 TO's per game so I dont think him being winded is causing mistakes. Quinn is averaging 9.6 minutes and Tyler 18.6, so there's evidence that Seth will play off the ball about a third of his minutes, if not a little more. I think that's good for him and the team, and I think he's veteran enough to improve over the season.

[Jderf]

However, you're probably right that people (including me) have been a bit too hard on him.

Really? Because I've found that reactions to Austin, both on message boards and in the media, have been shockingly fair. After last year's circus with Barnes and the pre-season All-American hype, I felt certain that Austin was in for the same treatment: build up absurd expectations, decry the inevitable disappointment. But on the contrary, people seem to be remarkably realistic about it. The general consensus appears to be "Not perfect, but promising." Which I think is apt.

Personally, I absolutely love what we've seen from Austin so far; and when he masters the little things that people have mentioned, he is going to be truly awesome.

[Billy Dat]

our offensive chemistry (reading one another, spacing, timing and location of screens) pretty much sucks right now.

This is very true, a point I have been meaning to commit to screen for a few games. Yet, we are still winning against tough competition which is really encouraging. Aside from the fact that this poor offensive chemistry assumes some forthcoming upside in the team's offensive play, there is also the upside that the board may avoid beating the annual "we peak too early" drum.

[superdave]

This is very true, a point I have been meaning to commit to screen for a few games. Yet, we are still winning against tough competition which is really encouraging. Aside from the fact that this poor offensive chemistry assumes some forthcoming upside in the team's offensive play, there is also the upside that the board may avoid beating the annual "we peak too early" drum.

There's a lot of upside yet to be had. Austin is shooting 40% from the field. If he inches up a few % points, that means he's finishing in the paint better and hitting his J more regularly. Our bigs are combining for 3.6 blocks per game. This should go up with our size and leaping ability. We have more turnovers than assists on the season. So when that improves, our efficiency should go up.

Super "We're going to get much better" Dave

[77devil]

Very interesting thought. I do think they pull Seth off the ball some when Quinn or Tyler is in the game with him, and Austin initiates the offense some too. But your point about Seth getting worn down is a good one. He got attacked vs. Belmont as Coach K pointed out in the post-game. Seth is a calming influence on the offense, which is great because our offensive chemistry (reading one another, spacing, timing and location of screens) pretty much sucks right now. Seth is also a pretty good defender - he's got the scheme down, it's just a matter of executing for him. So he's our most evolved guard right now, which means he'll play big minutes. He has played 28, 24, 38, 34, and 35 minutes so far. He's averaging 2 fouls and 2 TO's per game so I dont think him being winded is causing mistakes. Quinn is averaging 9.6 minutes and Tyler 18.6, so there's evidence that Seth will play off the ball about a third of his minutes, if not a little more. I think that's good for him and the team, and I think he's veteran enough to improve over the season.

Plus Austin is bringing the ball up court for stretches when Seth is in the game. Some of what we are seeing, to be sure, is early season tinkering, but it makes sense that the coaches are taking opportunities to keep Seth fresher for his offense at end game situations.

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

I think that as the season goes along and this team defines each player's role, Duke will become progressively better on both ends of the court. Certain players like Ryan and Seth really have a good feel for one another. Hopefully once Murphy and Gbinije catch on we will be deeper and can surprise a few teams who think they can present match-up problems in terms of length and athletic ability.

[roywhite]

There's a lot of upside yet to be had. Austin is shooting 40% from the field. If he inches up a few % points, that means he's finishing in the paint better and hitting his J more regularly. Our bigs are combining for 3.6 blocks per game. This should go up with our size and leaping ability. We have more turnovers than assists on the season. So when that improves, our efficiency should go up.

Super "We're going to get much better" Dave

That fits in well with observations made by, I think, Mike Breen and Doris Burke as they have broadcasted our games.
In contrast to Michigan State, who Breen felt needed to go back to the drawing board, Duke seemed to be generally on the right track and could look to further improvements through experience and small adjustments.

I'd be surprised if the 2011-12 team becomes dominant, yet they should be capable of beating any given opponent and are likely to improve.
Certainly helps to have the best coach.

[slower]

Since Coach K said after an exhibition game that the team just plays better when Thornton comes in the game, I’ve heard television broadcasters say precisely the same thing at least once during every subsequent game, as though it’s their own original thought.

That's pretty much a staple of their profession. Some are better than others. Most are just monkeys with good haircuts.

[COYS]

There's a lot of upside yet to be had. Austin is shooting 40% from the field. If he inches up a few % points, that means he's finishing in the paint better and hitting his J more regularly. Our bigs are combining for 3.6 blocks per game. This should go up with our size and leaping ability. We have more turnovers than assists on the season. So when that improves, our efficiency should go up.

Super "We're going to get much better" Dave

Great points. We have more diverse offensive players than we've had since 2004 when we had CDu, Shelden, JJ, Luol, and Daniel all in double figures. We had balanced scoring in the 2007-2008 season, too, but so much of it was predicated on three point shooting. Seth and Andre can kill from three, but Seth is also effective pulling up inside the arc. Austin can beat anyone off the dribble. He has the ball in his hands so much that as he improves off the bounce, he will single-handedly improve our offensive efficiency. Mason provides inside scoring while Ryan gives us what many hoped Shav would provide for that 2004 team. That type of balance and talent is a luxury, but at the same time it will make it harder to figure out how to focus our offense. As the players develop chemistry and as the staff gets a better picture of how different combinations of players work, I think you'll see us become an elite offensive team by the end of the year.

According to KenPom our offense is better than our defense at this point in terms of ranking. However, I actually think that improvements in the turnover and decision-making departments on offense will have a significant effect on defense, as well. We're giving the opposition a fair number of easy buckets off of long rebounds from bad shots and from careless turnovers. Limit those and we take away 3-5 easy 2pt. possessions for our opposition each game.

[Indoor66]

I definitely remember a nice left handed lay in that he had in the davidson game, I remember commenting on how he used his left hand.

Yeah, I saw him go left and finish with the left hand. Bob, I too have commented on his failure to go left and was watching him closely on this issue.

[Indoor66]

Yeah, he just doesn't have nearly the diverse skillset of Bird. I think poor man's Nowitzki with Kelly.

I love Ryan's game but Bird was in a different league. His passing was second only to Pistol Pete and his shooting was creative and uncanny. He could put it in from anywhere any time. Bird was in a class that is very small in basketball history.

[hq2]

I love Ryan's game but Bird was in a different league. His passing was second only to Pistol Pete and his shooting was creative and uncanny. He could put it in from anywhere any time. Bird was in a class that is very small in basketball history.

First time I saw Bird in college he scored 49 points from like, everywhere. I can't remember him missing a single open shot. RK has a long
ways to go to get to that level, BUT: He is showing signs of being the most skilled all around Duke big man since Ferry and Laettner., both of
whom were threats to score from anywhere. RK is showing that he has grown into his body now and knows how to use it. He has excellent
coordination for a player his size (behind the back dribbles?), has great court sense, knows how to take and make good shots, and is finally
figuring out that when you're 6-11 and coordinated, you can do a whole lot of things under the basket, and it's hard for other players to stop
you. He's adjusted his shot angle for his new height and reach too, so the inconsistent shooting of last year is gone too. And, best of all, the
skinny freshman perimeter wimpiness is gone. He's getting tough under the basket, fighting for rebounds, and playing quality D. If
he keeps progressing at this rate, he could be all conference by the end of the year; and maybe looking at an NBA contract at the end of next.

[juise]

Chad Ford wrote a little (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/39555/ford-in-maui-austin-rivers-overrated) about Austin's game against UT (nothing new here), but I was interested to see his comments on Ryan's game. There are also some comments on Mason.

[jimsumner]

That's pretty much a staple of their profession. Some are better than others. Most are just monkeys with good haircuts.

Or perhaps they're talking to some combination of K, Wojo, Collins and Capel, who are reinforcing this point, an insight they're then repeating to their audience.

It can happen. Some of them do some research.

And some are monkeys with good haircuts.