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Olympic Fan
11-20-2011, 12:42 PM
Okay, here's one for the philosophers out there.

Vandy and Tennessee are in overtime. Vandy gets the ball first. On the second play, the Vandy QB (Aaron Rogers' little brother) throws an out pass that picked by a Tennessee defensive back, who then appears to stumble to his knees, but gets up and returns the ball 85-yards for the touchdown. As he takes off, the side judge, just feet from the play, blows his whistle and waves his arms over his head, signalling that the Tennessee defender is down where he stumbled.

When they go to replay, the referee announces that since no whistle was blown (a blatant falsehood) the only determination is whether his knee touched. The replay official determines that the kid's knee never touches the ground -- it's close, but the replay gets it right -- and thus his return counts and Tennessee wins 27-21. Later, the SEC issues a ruling that the whistle WAS blown and that the play never should have been reviewed.

My question is, was justice done? If the linesman doesn't botch the call and blow his whistle, the kid returns the ball for a touchdown and Tennessee wins. Or maybe there was a Vandy kid who stopped chasing him when he heard the whistle (I watched the replay and saw several players on both teams stop at the whistle, but I'm not sure any of the Vandy kids could have caught him anyway). By rule, the play was dead and should not have been reviewed ... Tennessee should have gotten the ball at the 25 for its try in overtime and could have won the fgame anyway with a FG or TD.

So what was the right outcome?

BTW Did anybody else see the end of the Virginia-FSU game? It looked like a Duke game (from FSU's point of view). The Seminoles absolutely dominate the game, but because of an incredible series of mistakes, they are only up 13-7 when Virginia goes 95 yards in about three minutes to score the go-ahead TD with 56 seconds left. FSU gets a good KO return and quickly moves the ball to near midfield, where they face a fourth and five with about 30 seconds left. Manuel is sacked and Virginia appears to have the game won, but wait ... there is a flag -- the guy sacking Manuel is called for facemask. Mike London goes nuts, but replay shows it was a good call (that's just TV replay, the play wasn't reviewed officially).

FSU quickly gets the ball to the Virginia 30 with 12 seconds left and no timeouts. They try to get a little closer and throw an out pass for about six yards ... only the receiver makes a diving catch short of the sideline. The clock keeps running and runs out before FSU can attempt the game-winning FG. Virginia storms on the field in celebration, everything is choas ... but, wait, the game isn't over ... the replay wants to review the catch to see if the receiver got out of bounds -- he didn't, but after a six minuite review, they determine that he didbn't actually make the catch and the pass was incomplete.

Again London goes nuts -- he's already sent his team to the locker room and he has to get them back. Dustin Hopkins, the best FG kicker in the ACC, lines up for a 47-yard field goal. Before he can kick it, there is movement on the line -- false start? a Five-yard penalty" a 52-yard field goal? (Contrary to the TV announcer, the new 10-second runoff rule would not apply because the clock was stopped). No, the ruling is that someone on the Virginia defense was calling false signals to make the FSU lineman jump.

You can imagine London now as the third big call in a row goes against him ... Hopkins lines up for the 42-yard kick -- and knocks it wide left.

Wow!

Zeke
11-20-2011, 06:08 PM
Okay, here's one for the philosophers out there.

Vandy and Tennessee are in overtime. Vandy gets the ball first. On the second play, the Vandy QB (Aaron Rogers' little brother) throws an out pass that picked by a Tennessee defensive back, who then appears to stumble to his knees, but gets up and returns the ball 85-yards for the touchdown. As he takes off, the side judge, just feet from the play, blows his whistle and waves his arms over his head, signalling that the Tennessee defender is down where he stumbled.

When they go to replay, the referee announces that since no whistle was blown (a blatant falsehood) the only determination is whether his knee touched. The replay official determines that the kid's knee never touches the ground -- it's close, but the replay gets it right -- and thus his return counts and Tennessee wins 27-21. Later, the SEC issues a ruling that the whistle WAS blown and that the play never should have been reviewed.

My question is, was justice done? If the linesman doesn't botch the call and blow his whistle, the kid returns the ball for a touchdown and Tennessee wins. Or maybe there was a Vandy kid who stopped chasing him when he heard the whistle (I watched the replay and saw several players on both teams stop at the whistle, but I'm not sure any of the Vandy kids could have caught him anyway). By rule, the play was dead and should not have been reviewed ... Tennessee should have gotten the ball at the 25 for its try in overtime and could have won the fgame anyway with a FG or TD.

So what was the right outcom

It is a question of fact. Did the side judge blow a whistle? The referee said there was no whistle and of course the Tennesse folks thought there was no whistle- I'm sure the Vanderbilt people thought there was a whistle. It is not a question of rules, bit it is a question of fact. Who knows better than than the refs?

devildeac
11-20-2011, 06:41 PM
Don't forget the phantom GT TD yesterday to which loran and sage have already referred in the FB thread on the EK Board:mad:.

rthomas
11-20-2011, 08:16 PM
Since the time that pro and college football has relied on the replay judges, so have the field judges.

Olympic Fan
11-21-2011, 12:35 AM
It is a question of fact. Did the side judge blow a whistle? The referee said there was no whistle and of course the Tennesse folks thought there was no whistle- I'm sure the Vanderbilt people thought there was a whistle. It is not a question of rules, bit it is a question of fact. Who knows better than than the refs?

No dispute in fact -- the SEC office issued a statement admitting that the sidejudge DID blow his whistle.

http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2011/nov/20/sec-coordinator-of-officials-crew-blew-call-in/?partner=RSS

On replay, the whistle is clearly audible and is in sync with the sidejudge waving his hands over his head (to signal that the play is dead).

There is no debate about the facts,. And there is no question of rules -- by rule, the play was dead even though the ref was wrong to blow his whistle.

The only question I was asking is what is justice?

killerleft
11-21-2011, 10:58 PM
It is a question of fact. Did the side judge blow a whistle? The referee said there was no whistle and of course the Tennesse folks thought there was no whistle- I'm sure the Vanderbilt people thought there was a whistle. It is not a question of rules, bit it is a question of fact. Who knows better than than the refs?

How about a question of ears? I heard the whistle, and the TV guys heard the whistle, during live play.

I heard the whistle live when VT was allowed a fumble recovery against Duke. Saw the ref motioning that the Duke player was down before he fumbled. Replay showed an unquestionable fumble and recovery by VT.

Interesting that both calls, as incorrectly decided by the replay refs, turned out to be true justice in the end. Did they fudge to make sure the "right" thing was done?

Zeke
11-23-2011, 04:31 PM
No dispute in fact -- the SEC office issued a statement admitting that the sidejudge DID blow his whistle.

http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2011/nov/20/sec-coordinator-of-officials-crew-blew-call-in/?partner=RSS

On replay, the whistle is clearly audible and is in sync with the sidejudge waving his hands over his head (to signal that the play is dead).

There is no debate about the facts,. And there is no question of rules -- by rule, the play was dead even though the ref was wrong to blow his whistle.

The only question I was asking is what is justice?

Hard to imagine that the referee would announce that no whistle was blown, if indeed there was one blown without checking with the side judge. As to your question: justice is playing the game by the rules. If it was blown then Tennessee gets the ball on the 25 and probably kicks a field goal. If not the play stands. You can't do make up calls. How many bad ball/strike calls are made in baseball and how many bad block/charge bad calls are made in basketball. I hope they don't intentionally try to "do justice".

Olympic Fan
11-23-2011, 08:44 PM
Hard to imagine that the referee would announce that no whistle was blown, if indeed there was one blown without checking with the side judge. As to your question: justice is playing the game by the rules. If it was blown then Tennessee gets the ball on the 25 and probably kicks a field goal. If not the play stands. You can't do make up calls. How many bad ball/strike calls are made in baseball and how many bad block/charge bad calls are made in basketball. I hope they don't intentionally try to "do justice".

Watching the game live, I saw the referee go to the side judge who had blown his whistle and speak to him ... the side judge shakes his head no ... and the referee returns t the middle of the field and announces that since no whistle was blown, the play was under review.

What we have is a case of a cowardly official who made a mistake, then lied about it to his colleages.

Whether you believe justice was done or not, that guy should be fired. Period.

The SEC now acknowledges that he DID blow his whistle (which you can not only hear on replay, but see him make the signal -- waving his hands over his head -- that the play is dead). That guy should never officiate another game.

gam7
11-24-2011, 01:49 AM
BTW Did anybody else see the end of the Virginia-FSU game? It looked like a Duke game (from FSU's point of view). The Seminoles absolutely dominate the game, but because of an incredible series of mistakes, they are only up 13-7 when Virginia goes 95 yards in about three minutes to score the go-ahead TD with 56 seconds left. FSU gets a good KO return and quickly moves the ball to near midfield, where they face a fourth and five with about 30 seconds left. Manuel is sacked and Virginia appears to have the game won, but wait ... there is a flag -- the guy sacking Manuel is called for facemask. Mike London goes nuts, but replay shows it was a good call (that's just TV replay, the play wasn't reviewed officially).

FSU quickly gets the ball to the Virginia 30 with 12 seconds left and no timeouts. They try to get a little closer and throw an out pass for about six yards ... only the receiver makes a diving catch short of the sideline. The clock keeps running and runs out before FSU can attempt the game-winning FG. Virginia storms on the field in celebration, everything is choas ... but, wait, the game isn't over ... the replay wants to review the catch to see if the receiver got out of bounds -- he didn't, but after a six minuite review, they determine that he didbn't actually make the catch and the pass was incomplete.

Again London goes nuts -- he's already sent his team to the locker room and he has to get them back. Dustin Hopkins, the best FG kicker in the ACC, lines up for a 47-yard field goal. Before he can kick it, there is movement on the line -- false start? a Five-yard penalty" a 52-yard field goal? (Contrary to the TV announcer, the new 10-second runoff rule would not apply because the clock was stopped). No, the ruling is that someone on the Virginia defense was calling false signals to make the FSU lineman jump.

You can imagine London now as the third big call in a row goes against him ... Hopkins lines up for the 42-yard kick -- and knocks it wide left.

Wow!

I watched this game with a rooting interest in UVA. The only part you left out was the UVA player's broken leg on the face mask play requiring an air cast to be applied and then carting him off. This added to the drama and craziness. It was totally bizarre to be rooting for an FSU completion while they reviewed that play for what felt like 15 minutes. That last drive was an absolute roller coaster. After they moved up the FG attempt, I was starting to wonder if the game was being officiated by the same crew that did the 1968 olympics mens basketball gold medal game.

Anyway, I plan to be in cville for UVA-Va Tech Saturday. There is a lot riding on that one.

House G
11-27-2011, 11:31 AM
Hall of shame:

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/15618151/wac-apologizes-for-lengthy-replay-review

HaveFunExpectToWin
11-27-2011, 04:28 PM
Just saw this thread. One thing to note, in Vanderbilt football there is no justice from the referees.

That said, we're going bowling and UT isn't.

jimsumner
11-27-2011, 05:22 PM
After they moved up the FG attempt, I was starting to wonder if the game was being officiated by the same crew that did the 1968 olympics mens basketball gold medal game.



Well they would be pretty old by now. :)

BTW, I think you're referring to 1972.

gam7
11-27-2011, 10:06 PM
BTW, I think you're referring to 1972.

Yep, I meant '72. Thanks Jim.

jafarr1
11-28-2011, 01:02 PM
A similar thing happened to Duke earlier this year. Juwan Thompson fumbled around the opposing 20 yard-line. The whistle blew (the call being down by contact), and only after the whistle did the defense recover the fumble. The play was reviewed, it was called a fumble, and the ball was awarded to the opposition at the spot of the fumble recovery.

In this case, again, justice was probably done - it was a legitimate fumble and there was no Duke player in the area to recover it - but by the letter of law, the fumble recovery came after the whistle, so Duke should have kept the ball.