MBB: Duke 82, Davidson 69 Post-Game Thread

[pfrduke]

Discuss.

[Indoor66]

A tale of two half's. Go Duke - on to Maui.

Another thought - I hope they take down the 903/Kounting board in Cameron. Time to move on on that issue.

[davekay1971]

Mason is a different player this year. Nice game for Austin. Another test passed by this team: fighting through the emotional letdown against a well-coached team to get through number 904.

[Underdog5]

Happy for the W but this game and the Belmont game make me a little nervous about a potential match up with Memphis. This is going to be a fun team to watch develop.

[Bob Green]

Quinn Cook played solid down the stretch. He has all the requisite skill sets so I believe his court minutes will steadily increase over the season. His ball handling and free throw shooting will ensure he is in games at crunch time.

[Saratoga2]

I am interested in how people saw Andre's play tonight. Was the defense set up to stop him or did he just have an off night? It would seem a 6'4" guard out there would have given Duke a defensive advantage.

Clearly having Ryan off the court for much of the 1st have due to foul trouble had an impact on the game. He has a lot of value out there.

Better game by Miles although a lot of fouls.

Quinn looked very good when given a chance.

Foul shooting woes could bite us sometime in Maui.

I don't have much to add tonight but will read with interested what others are thinking.

[loldevilz]

Once again we started out slow, then in the second half we played some outstanding basketball for 10-15 minutes, and then we played some sloppy basketball to close the game. When we are playing well we are really good, but it seems like we don't play motivated a lot.

The most interesting thing for me was that the 3 point shot was almost never utilized. It was out entire offense last game, and this game, the Plumlees, and Rivers really led the offense. Its nice to see that we can win games multiple ways.

[arnie]

Quinn Cook played solid down the stretch. He has all the requisite skill sets so I believe his court minutes will steadily increase over the season. His ball handling and free throw shooting will ensure he is in games at crunch time.

Totally agree - think we'll play small a lot this year with Mason/Kelly and 4 guards. Cook is a player.

[Bob Green]

I am interested in how people saw Andre's play tonight. Was the defense set up to stop him or did he just have an off night?

IMO, ball handling is the issue. Dawkins looks much improved defensively, and he has always been a great shooter, but against quick teams that pressure the perimeter he is going to be at a disadvantage. I'd like to see him work the baseline a bit more to complement the corner J.

[J4Kop99]

Hey coach, dust off some of those old JJ plays and give Dawkins a few to run at the beginning of every game. If he gets going early that makes things a lot easier for the rest of the team.

--Good work, Mason. He is going to dominate most teams' bigs. Fun to watch a Duke offense that utilizes a big man. Coach has a big that he can trust down low on the offensive end... first time since Shelden. Also, Rivers looked good and under control for the most part. He was just playing too hard against MSU.

I don't know what has to happen for Miles to get going on a regular basis. He's not going to get a breakaway dunk every single game...

[delfrio]

Totally agree - think we'll play small a lot this year with Mason/Kelly and 4 guards. Cook is a player.

This might be jumping ahead a bit, because I have no idea if he can be truly dominant, but I'm already thinking of Cook as a solid 4-year player. He's got a good handle, 3-point shot, FTs, and he appears to enjoy getting after it on defense. And he seems vocal in the Nolan/Paulus/etc mold. We haven't seen much in terms of decision making while running a team yet, but I think he might have the most (unrecognized) upside on the team.

[uh_no]

Totally agree - think we'll play small a lot this year with Mason/Kelly and 4 guards. Cook is a player.

I think our lineups will be mostly dictated by defense. In the first half there were several times when our perimeter was porous, and if not for their missing some layups, the lead might have been 10+. It certainly improved in the second half, but has been a problem in each game we've played this year (for most values of the word "each"). Perhaps the 4 guard set is going to give us the best look, but I think we'll have a lot of trouble guarding the 3 this year, let alone putting a small guy on the opposing 4 as well. Teams like UNC and Uconn would eat us alive if we tried to put 4 guards on the floor.

[Indoor66]

I think our lineups will be mostly dictated by defense. In the first half there were several times when our perimeter was porous, and if not for their missing some layups, the lead might have been 10+. It certainly improved in the second half, but has been a problem in each game we've played this year (for most values of the word "each"). Perhaps the 4 guard set is going to give us the best look, but I think we'll have a lot of trouble guarding the 3 this year, let alone putting a small guy on the opposing 4 as well. Teams like UNC and Uconn would eat us alive if we tried to put 4 guards on the floor.

Is uCON on the schedule this year?

[uh_no]

Is uCON on the schedule this year?

They are not. That does not change the point that large teams would pose a problem for a 4 guard lineup, and there is a decent chance that we will be guaranteed to run into UNC twice this year...if not 3 teams, and if we want a shot to go deep, we'll have to figure out a way to stop all kinds of teams, some of who are doubtless going to be large enough to thoroughly exploit a 4 guard set.

[loldevilz]

The only time Duke will play a four guard lineup is in end-of-game situations because the Plumlee's are poor free throw shooters. Cook will be the best player in this class other than Rivers, but he is not good enough to keep Kelly or Mason out of the lineup. Both mean too much to this team on the defensive and offensive ends.

[MChambers]

I thought this would be a tough game, after 903, and it was, at least for a half. The Duke defense at the start of the second half was quite impressive, however. And how does Duke run away with a game without shooting many 3s?

Mason played another impressive game. He's really a dominant rebounder.

Rivers can take anyone off the dribble. Or so it seems. Not quite as good as Kyrie, but awfully good. (Can I wonder how anyone could have dealt with the two of them in the same backcourt?)

Curry had a very strong second half. He struggled with his shot early on, but really turned it around,

Cook played a lot in the second half. Clearly his best performance so far.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I know that it is only 3 games in but if Coach K is not going to play Murphy why not red shirt him ?

[DU82]

I know that it is only 3 games in but if Coach K is not going to play Murphy why not red shirt him ?

He played in two games...yes exhibition games, but it matters. He cannot be redshirted other than for a medical exception.

Repeating from other threads, he suffered a concussion in practice. They are holding him out because of that. I do not believe it is a season ending issue.

[MCFinARL]

IMO, ball handling is the issue. Dawkins looks much improved defensively, and he has always been a great shooter, but against quick teams that pressure the perimeter he is going to be at a disadvantage. I'd like to see him work the baseline a bit more to complement the corner J.

Yes, but--1) it didn't seem to me his teammates looked for Andre as much as they could have given his Michigan St. performance, especially after he hit that three in the first half; 2) Despite greatly improved defense and focus, it still seems Andre has less margin for error from the coaches than some other players, for whatever reason. He was immediately removed after his travel in the second half and never got back in the game.

I don't disagree that Andre is not the best ball handler among the guards, but he is not a primary ball handler anyway, and I'm not sure why a game like Michigan St. doesn't earn him a little more margin for error in the next game than he got here, given the number of errors of various types by other guards.

[gep]

I didn't see the first half, but the close score seems like the team has to get in to the "feel" and rhythm of the game. Then, something happens in the locker room, and the first half of the second half is great... they build up a good lead. Then, as everyone says, the last 5 minutes or so is "eventful". But thinking about it while watching this game, maybe Coach K is *teaching* the team how to play the last 5 minutes... stall ball, if you will... and win the game.:cool: I thought I saw Coach K standing and waving his arms alot directing while the guards had the ball near mid-court.

[pfrduke]

He played in two games...yes exhibition games, but it matters. He cannot be redshirted other than for a medical exception.

This is not correct w/r/t freshmen.

[basket1544]

When can we expect to have a Man of the Match thread up?
Thanks!

[diesel]

For me, that outlet pass for most of the length of the floor from Mason to Miles for the dunk was the highlight of the season so far! And Mason's rebound total must have been outstanding. But why can't he hit free throws? (I seem to recall making the same comment last year!) I haven't compared their stats, but it seemed to me that Miles had a much better percentage in the free throw department tonight.

[DU82]

This is not correct w/r/t freshmen.

You'll have to show me that rule. All I found at ncaa.org is:

The term "redshirt" is used to describe a student-athlete who does not participate in competition in a sport for an entire academic year. If you do not compete in a sport the entire academic year, you have not used a season of competition. For example, if you are a qualifier, and you attend a four-year college your freshman year, and you practice but do not compete against outside competition, you would still have the next four years to play four seasons of competition.Each student is allowed no more than four seasons of competition per sport. If you were not a qualifier, you may have fewer seasons of competition available to you. You should know that NCAA rules indicate that any competition, regardless of time, during a season counts as one of your seasons of competition in that sport. It does not matter how long you were involved in a particular competition (for example, one play in a football game, one point in a volleyball match); you will be charged with one season of competition.

I don't see anything that says different about freshmen. I presume that's why Marshall hasn't played since the Blue/White game.

[basket1544]

Miles was great from the line making 4 of 4 (better even than Ryan who had his first miss of the year tonight). As a team, they missed 11 free throws tonight. I know Mason struggles at the line, but when Dre and Seth miss free throws I just want to scream.
Oh well at least we got the win. Now on to Monday afternoon's game!

[The Gordog]

Discuss.

Can anyone who was at the game report on what K said to the Crazies after the game?

I too liked what we saw from #2 tonight.

[watzone]

I thought Mason had a great game tonight with his second double-double of the season. He got the team going and showed great emotion in the win. http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/11/mason-plumlee-has-a-double-double-to-help-duke-to-victory/ A little over a minute clip with Mason. And what a night is was for Coach K as well, game recap - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/11/undefeated-blue-devils-grow-some-more-in-82-69-win-over-davidson-coach-k-video/

[DU82]

Can anyone who was at the game report on what K said to the Crazies after the game?

I too liked what we saw from #2 tonight.

There was a long ceremony after the game, with the Krzyzewski family, Pres. Brodhead, Kevin White, John Swofford (who didn't get booed, but should have for how long he spoke) and Mr. and Mrs. Tom Butters. There were two videos shown, I expect Blue Planet to have them online shortly. The primary theme was family.

A new banner was unveiled in the south?/west? endzone (opposite the championship banners) which is in a separate thread.

[devildeac]

There was a long ceremony after the game, with the Krzyzewski family, Pres. Brodhead, Kevin White, John Swofford (who didn't get booed, but should have for how long he spoke) and Mr. and Mrs. Tom Butters. There were two videos shown, I expect Blue Planet to have them online shortly. The primary theme was family.

A new banner was unveiled in the south?/west? endzone (opposite the championship banners) which is in a separate thread.

I pretty much despise all things tarheelian but I thought swofford was very gracious and complimentary to K and Duke and did not interject anything of the light blue persuasion except mentioning he was hired in his former position about the same time K was at Duke, again without mentioning any institutional names. He was a bit of a windbag but appeared quite sincere in his praises. But you can bet Ozzie and I were ready to start a GTHcGTH chant at the first hint of anything about unc;).

[hq2]

Happy for the W but this game and the Belmont game make me a little nervous about a potential match up with Memphis.

Tend to agree with this. These letdown games show that the team has to play well to win, even against mediocre comp. Mason looked
good, but I think the MSU game was a better indicator of where he is against quality big men; nowhere, as far as I can tell. Andre wasn't
a factor tonight; looked like they were more interested in getting the bigs and Austin going, all of whom (except RK) didn't play well against
MSU on offense. 'dre will be there when we need him (hopefully!). Austin showed he is very effective against bad interior D. If only he had a good drive
and dish; K and the staff really need to work on setting him and the Plumlees up for some good alley oops. My favorite play of the evening;
nice drive crossing the lane by RK, with a good bank angle. Love to see him do that sort of thing more often.

[Greg_Newton]

Man, are we going to miss Mason's defensive rebounding when he's gone. Those long arms swooping up out of the sea of players at the perfect moment to swallow the ball at the apex of the bounce are a beautiful sight!

I also can't believe how much his approach to contact has improved over the course of a year. I don't know if you remember, but even last year, he would VERY rarely take the ball strong. We'd always be on here groaning about how he either had to a) dunk everything, or b) do some weak, double-clutch fadeaway that would 100% ensure he'd get his shot off (it would just be an awful shot). Not a trace of that this year - he's been muscling up guys and taking it to the rim right up through their noses. Major kudos for improving such a crucial aspect of his game to the point that I almost forget how far he's come.

Anyhoo, post-game quotes: http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205335910 Thought this was interesting:


"[Miles] and Quinn Cook coming off the bench were dynamite for us. And I think that's the type of team we're going to have right now. Quinn played two minutes against Michigan State. I don't think Miles played very well against Michigan State. They've got to put that behind them as we grow. Andre [Dawkins] had a great game against Michigan State. He played okay today. I'm not going to evaluate each player. What I'm saying is we're going to have fluctuation like that, and if we get to a point where all of them are playing well consistently, where they know who they are consistently. They don't know that yet. It's not their fault they don't know that. The only way you know that is to compete and you've got to get the experience of doing it. But in saying that, to see Quinn and Miles step up - Quinn was big-time for us. And that keeps Seth [Curry] a lot fresher. Miles had to play even more because of Ryan [Kelly] being in foul trouble. So we've just got to be a collective effort, and hopefully everyone keeps getting better."

[COYS]

Mason looked good, but I think the MSU game was a better indicator of where he is against quality big men; nowhere, as far as I can tell.

I think this might not do justice to Mason's over all effort in the MSU game. He played very tough defense against the bigger, physical MSU frontline. Also, on offense, MSU almost always collapsed two defenders on Mason, making it tough for him to get going from the post but, with a few exceptions, he was able to handle that pressure and get rid of the ball. His post game is definitely still a bit mechanical and slow to develop. When he's working one on one, he's alright but he does need to make faster moves if he is going to avoid collapsing defenses. That being said, he's had some great games on offense against weaker competition and had good games on defense against everyone. He's not a finished product, but he's definitely not "nowhere" against good front courts. This has been his best 4 game stretch he's ever put in while at Duke. That he played good defense against the Spartans even when he wasn't scoring is a great sign that he's beginning to develop a more consistent approach. Tonight, he was doing some much needed scoring, which has also got to be encouraging.

[Greg_Newton]

There was a long ceremony after the game, with the Krzyzewski family, Pres. Brodhead, Kevin White, John Swofford (who didn't get booed, but should have for how long he spoke) and Mr. and Mrs. Tom Butters. There were two videos shown, I expect Blue Planet to have them online shortly. The primary theme was family.

A new banner was unveiled in the south?/west? endzone (opposite the championship banners) which is in a separate thread.

I thought the most moving part of his speech was where he looked at the students, and said something along the lines of "I hope each of can find, in your lives, a place where you feel like you can do something great and make magic happen, and have people around in you that believe in you, like I have been lucky enough to find here." It was probably more eloquent than that, but it was a nice, inspirational comment to the students that seemed very genuine and heartfelt.

[Newton_14]

Tend to agree with this. These letdown games show that the team has to play well to win, even against mediocre comp. Mason looked
good, but I think the MSU game was a better indicator of where he is against quality big men; nowhere, as far as I can tell. Andre wasn't
a factor tonight; looked like they were more interested in getting the bigs and Austin going, all of whom (except RK) didn't play well against
MSU on offense. 'dre will be there when we need him (hopefully!). Austin showed he is very effective against bad interior D. If only he had a good drive
and dish; K and the staff really need to work on setting him and the Plumlees up for some good alley oops. My favorite play of the evening;
nice drive crossing the lane by RK, with a good bank angle. Love to see him do that sort of thing more often.

Mason is "nowhere" against quality big men? Wow. First, Belmont and Davidson, are not "mediocre" teams and both teams had quality bigs (not as good defensively as Mich St but just as good or better offensively). Presbyterian also had one quality big. Mason has played well in every game including Mich St. He drew numerous fouls on Mich St bigs blowing by them on post moves and forcing them to foul him. Their entire front line was in foul trouble. His weakness right now is foul shooting, but he is excelling in just about every other phase of the game and is a dominant rebounder. He is showing a much better ability to score the basketball on the interior. He spent 2 years trying to "shoot" the basketball in the paint, and he has finally figured out how to "score" the basketball. He and Kelly are pretty much even in the race for most improved player from last year. I am just amazed at how many people refuse to give this kid any credit...

As for the game tonight, Duke came out lacking defensive intensity in the first half. Maybe it was the predicted let down after the highly emotional 903 game against MSU, or maybe it was taking Davidson too lightly or a combination of both. Either way, when they upped the intensity in the 2nd half, they turned a 6 point deficit into a 19 point lead in a hurry. Once again the intensity dropped a bit after getting the lead but they handled the final stretch much better than previous games, so improvement in that dept. Davidson never got closer than 11 points but it was far too little too late. Austin played a really good game including a few kickouts to shooters and I am not going to discredit that by dissing Davidson's interior defense. Davidson is a very well coached team with good scheme's that they execute well. They are not a Top team by any stretched but they aren't chopped liver either. The day is coming soon when Austin will carve up the best of the best defenses.

This is very much a growing, developing team, with growing developing players. Role players who are transitioning into star players. They are not going to win every game, and they are not going to win by 20 every night out in the games they do win. They will take a few losses along the way and 1 or 2 of those might happen next week in Maui. They will however, continue to improve game in and game out. They are fun to watch. It is going to be a good year and once again, by the end of the year, Duke will be a contender in both tourney's and a high seed in both tourney's.

My favorite play among many was the Seth alley-oop to Mason in heavy traffic. They made a very difficult play look easy.

[Gthoma2a]

I hope I am not Denver Bronco fanning here, but I really don't get why Quinn doesn't get more minutes. Could it be his cardio? He is so productive with hardly any time that I wish I could see him consistently out there for a game. He just gets it done. He has the swagger and he gets points for us. Him and Austin have great chemistry. Oddly enough, Austin was getting the ball to Quinn in rhythm a couple of games ago, not the other way around. I feel like he could make Kendall Marshall look bad later in the season if we give him playing time. I hate to be looking that far forward, but I want to win those games so bad!

[CameronBornAndBred]

The game was good...the second half was very good. The third half was even better.

213721382139

[juise]

There were two videos shown, I expect Blue Planet to have them online shortly. The primary theme was family.

I'm guessing that this is one of the videos you're referencing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDK0RNuw4Dc).

[Kedsy]

Totally agree - think we'll play small a lot this year with Mason/Kelly and 4 guards. Cook is a player.

Define "a lot," please.

Mason (averaging a double/double) and Ryan have been two of our best players so far this year, and Miles is averaging 7.5 ppg and 6.3 rpg in fewer than 18 minutes a game. So all three of them are "players," too. Not sure why you think two of those three don't deserve to be on the floor almost all the time.


Hey coach, dust off some of those old JJ plays and give Dawkins a few to run at the beginning of every game. If he gets going early that makes things a lot easier for the rest of the team.

I agree with this. Andre, Mason, and Miles all seem to play better when they knock down a few early in the game. On the one hand, I think we need to feed them all early to get them going. On the other hand, I wish they'd all play with the same intensity whether they get going early or not.


Yes, but--1) it didn't seem to me his teammates looked for Andre as much as they could have given his Michigan St. performance, especially after he hit that three in the first half

I agree. Although some of it is on him. The one time I saw him work hard for his shot, they fed him and he hit the three (in the first half). Very next possession, I watched him and he was just standing in place. If he'd run around and worked for a shot again, maybe they'd have fed him again?


I hope I am not Denver Bronco fanning here, but I really don't get why Quinn doesn't get more minutes.

He got 12 minutes today and has averaged 10 per game so far. How many minutes do you expect from him? Austin and Seth are going to play big minutes game in and game out (and if one of them plays less, like Austin against Michigan State, it will probably be Andre or maybe Tyler who takes up the slack, rather than Quinn). Today, Andre played 20 minutes and Tyler played 17 -- do you think their minutes should be drastically reduced to allow Quinn to play more? Our three main bigs played 70 minutes (and Josh played 8 of the remaining 10, showing that today we didn't play four guards pretty much at all). So unless you think Tyler (and/or Andre, but that's even less likely) will get his minutes drastically reduced, there's really no room for Quinn to increase his minutes by any significant amount. Maybe by the end of the year, Tyler and Quinn will reverse (Quinn 15-20 and Tyler 8-12 instead of vice versa), but that's about as high as I believe Quinn will get this season.

Next season I imagine he'll play more.

[J4Kop99]

I'm guessing that this is one of the videos you're referencing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDK0RNuw4Dc).

That is an awesome video.

[Gthoma2a]

Define "a lot," please.

Mason (averaging a double/double) and Ryan have been two of our best players so far this year, and Miles is averaging 7.5 ppg and 6.3 rpg in fewer than 18 minutes a game. So all three of them are "players," too. Not sure why you think two of those three don't deserve to be on the floor almost all the time.



I agree with this. Andre, Mason, and Miles all seem to play better when they knock down a few early in the game. On the one hand, I think we need to feed them all early to get them going. On the other hand, I wish they'd all play with the same intensity whether they get going early or not.



I agree. Although some of it is on him. The one time I saw him work hard for his shot, they fed him and he hit the three (in the first half). Very next possession, I watched him and he was just standing in place. If he'd run around and worked for a shot again, maybe they'd have fed him again?



He got 12 minutes today and has averaged 10 per game so far. How many minutes do you expect from him? Austin and Seth are going to play big minutes game in and game out (and if one of them plays less, like Austin against Michigan State, it will probably be Andre or maybe Tyler who takes up the slack, rather than Quinn). Today, Andre played 20 minutes and Tyler played 17 -- do you think their minutes should be drastically reduced to allow Quinn to play more? Our three main bigs played 70 minutes (and Josh played 8 of the remaining 10, showing that today we didn't play four guards pretty much at all). So unless you think Tyler (and/or Andre, but that's even less likely) will get his minutes drastically reduced, there's really no room for Quinn to increase his minutes by any significant amount. Maybe by the end of the year, Tyler and Quinn will reverse (Quinn 15-20 and Tyler 8-12 instead of vice versa), but that's about as high as I believe Quinn will get this season.

Next season I imagine he'll play more.

I would like for him to get more minutes than Tyler during times that we are failing to get offense. If Andre isn't hot, I would like to see us play with Curry and Rivers playing off the ball a little. I just want us to use him. I think he is instant offense. Dre has some very good games, but those tend to come against teams that don't make him drive. If a team is forcing him to drive effectively, I don't see why Quinn playing more isn't a good idea. We already have a spot up shooter in Curry, we have a playmaker in Rivers and, with Quinn, we have a guy to feed them and score effectively. I don't think Tyler offers us much on the offensive end at this point and our offense seems to need a shot in the arm that I think Quinn gives better than Dre as a spot up shooter or Tyler as a lesser offensive player (keep in mind that I value his defense, but I think that we could use to have Quinn, with pretty good athleticism, pick up playing team defense a little more than Tyler learning to score late in the season). I could be wrong, but that is my opinion at this stage. Being a scorer isn't easy to pick up for guys who aren't that aggressive, but most solid athletes can learn to play in a defensive system without changing their personality.

[Dukeface88]

Mason is "nowhere" against quality big men? Wow. First, Belmont and Davidson, are not "mediocre" teams and both teams had quality bigs (not as good defensively as Mich St but just as good or better offensively). Presbyterian also had one quality big. Mason has played well in every game including Mich St. He drew numerous fouls on Mich St bigs blowing by them on post moves and forcing them to foul him. Their entire front line was in foul trouble. His weakness right now is foul shooting, but he is excelling in just about every other phase of the game and is a dominant rebounder. He is showing a much better ability to score the basketball on the interior. He spent 2 years trying to "shoot" the basketball in the paint, and he has finally figured out how to "score" the basketball. He and Kelly are pretty much even in the race for most improved player from last year. I am just amazed at how many people refuse to give this kid any credit...

You ain't kidding. After tonight's game, Mason is averaging 12 and 10 on 64.5% from the field, leading the team in rebounds and blocks, and is second in assists (although I also agree that his FT shooting has been Shaqesque). Personally, I think he's probably been the best player on the team over these first four games, and that isn't for lack of competition

It was also nice to see Austin bounce back after a poor game at MSU. I really like the way he's always looking to attack, and his ability to get opponents into foul trouble has been a big positive on the defensive end. His decision making is an issue - he's got more turnovers than assists - but that should improve over the year. I'm pretty pleased with his play so far, and excited to see how he does going forward.

Seth has been doing about what I expected. I expected quite a bit, so this is definitely a positive thing. He's been very efficient at scoring, and somewhat less at distributing and taking care of the ball. I'm not really sure the Scheyer comparisons I've seen are accurate, but I also can't think of a better one.

As for the rest of them team: Plumlee the Elder was solid, with the exception of the dumb foul to end the first half. Ditto Ryan after those two early fouls. Tyler was Tyler, and I mean that in a good way. Andre was quiet, but I think that had more to do with the gameplan than him. We were pretty intent on attacking the paint (just over half our points came there - when's the last time that happened?). Dre clearly has the ability to drive, but it seems like he needs to hit a couple of threes before he feels comfortable doing it. Glad to see Quinn get some decent burn as well, and he made good use of it. I don't know how much of a role he'll play this season, but I think he'll become a very special player down the road.

The biggest issue I see with this team is maintaining focus, espescially on defense. We have stretches where we're actively generating turnovers, denying shots, hustling for rebounds, valuing the ball on offense and so forth. I want us to get to the point that where we have one stretch that lasts 40 minutes. Coming out at the beginning of the games the way we come out at half time would be a good start.

[Greg_Newton]

Mason is "nowhere" against quality big men? Wow. First, Belmont and Davidson, are not "mediocre" teams and both teams had quality bigs (not as good defensively as Mich St but just as good or better offensively). Presbyterian also had one quality big. Mason has played well in every game including Mich St. He drew numerous fouls on Mich St bigs blowing by them on post moves and forcing them to foul him. Their entire front line was in foul trouble. His weakness right now is foul shooting, but he is excelling in just about every other phase of the game and is a dominant rebounder. He is showing a much better ability to score the basketball on the interior. He spent 2 years trying to "shoot" the basketball in the paint, and he has finally figured out how to "score" the basketball. He and Kelly are pretty much even in the race for most improved player from last year. I am just amazed at how many people refuse to give this kid any credit...

Seriously, I'm not sure anyone watched the MSU game and came to that conclusion. He made 10-15 very good moves and defended very well, he just didn't have great stats.

For discussion's sake, let's say he a) makes the wide-open reverse layup (after a great baseline spin) that he somehow missed, b) makes the 3-foot jump hook that 7-foot pogo stick Adrien Payne swatted away at the last minute, and shoots 70% from the line... he ends up with 13 points, 5 boards and 3 blocks, despite early foul trouble and a slew of non-shooting fouls that prevented a good move from putting him in a scoring situation.

Maui will certainly give us a larger sample size, though.

[devildeac]

I enjoyed K's komments during the ceremony after the game about halftime in the locker room. He said wryly, "At halftime, I didn't think there was going to be any ceremony," as he looked directly at the team while they were all standing in front of the Davidson bench. He then thanked them for coming out and playing very well against Davidson, saying "we beat a really good team tonight."

[ArkieDukie]

Quinn Cook played solid down the stretch. He has all the requisite skill sets so I believe his court minutes will steadily increase over the season. His ball handling and free throw shooting will ensure he is in games at crunch time.

I agree, Bob. I lost count of the number of times I said, "Wow - excellent D by QC." His passing was pretty good, too. Yeah, I think playing time will increase.

[MCFinARL]

Define "a lot," please.



I agree. Although some of it is on him. The one time I saw him [Andre] work hard for his shot, they fed him and he hit the three (in the first half). Very next possession, I watched him and he was just standing in place. If he'd run around and worked for a shot again, maybe they'd have fed him again?





This is a fair point--at times last night there was a lot of standing around, not just by Andre (but certainly including him), especially when Austin had the ball. Even last night, though, I think Andre was working harder, and more often, than he did most of last season--but not as much as in the previous game. There may be a little bit of a chicken-and-egg situation here. Hopefully it will sort itself out.

[MChambers]

Mason is "nowhere" against quality big men? Wow. First, Belmont and Davidson, are not "mediocre" teams and both teams had quality bigs (not as good defensively as Mich St but just as good or better offensively). Presbyterian also had one quality big. Mason has played well in every game including Mich St. He drew numerous fouls on Mich St bigs blowing by them on post moves and forcing them to foul him. Their entire front line was in foul trouble. His weakness right now is foul shooting, but he is excelling in just about every other phase of the game and is a dominant rebounder. He is showing a much better ability to score the basketball on the interior. He spent 2 years trying to "shoot" the basketball in the paint, and he has finally figured out how to "score" the basketball. He and Kelly are pretty much even in the race for most improved player from last year. I am just amazed at how many people refuse to give this kid

My favorite play among many was the Seth alley-oop to Mason in heavy traffic. They made a very difficult play look easy.
boy, do I agree with your points, especially these two. Mason showed more willingness to draw contact on his shots than I saw at any point last year. His defense has improved, too, but I'm most excited about his willingness to try to score through contact. Miles and Ryan are improving in this area, too. It's great to put pressure on the other team's bigs.

And that alley-oops was awesome, no question.

[hq2]

That being said, he's had some great games on offense against weaker competition and had good games on defense against everyone.

Precisely. When I said "nowhere" I meant on offense against quality comp. His D and rebounding are fine. However, scoring points against a team where
he has a three or four inch height advantage who aren't good leapers is not the same as scoring against a team with guys his size who are, which he clearly
did not do against MSU. MSU is probably the extreme case in the other direction; most teams aren't as physical under the basket. Nonetheless, it showed
that against top level comp, Mason is still not an effective low post scorer. Hopefully, by NCAA time, when he'll be facing players like that in most games, he may
be better; but now that he's a junior, I'm not sure how much better. We'll see.

[davekay1971]

There's no question Quinn showed last night that he's the total package. Good shooter, good distributor, plays aggressive, solid defense. Quinn is going to earn minutes this year. As with all of our players, every year, how many minutes depends on his in-practice and on-court performance. Coach K doesn't put a high or low end on any player's minutes, so we probably shouldn't either.

All that being said, of course, we have an embarrassment of riches on the perimeter this year. Seth, Dre, Austin, Tyler, and Quinn all have ability and have all shown that they can produce in game situations. So Koach gets to figure out which combinations are right in each situation. Trimming down Quinn's competition for PT to Seth and Tyler (reasonable as those are our 3 PG options), Quinn may very well have the highest ceiling as a PG. That's saying a lot, because I think Seth is a future NBA player (whether as a PG or SG I'm not sure). There's a big difference, however, in having the highest ceiling and being the best option right now. It will be interesting and fun to see how their strengths and roles develop from now until April.

[davekay1971]

Precisely. When I said "nowhere" I meant on offense against quality comp. His D and rebounding are fine. However, scoring points against a team where
he has a three or four inch height advantage who aren't good leapers is not the same as scoring against a team with guys his size who are, which he clearly
did not do against MSU. MSU is probably the extreme case in the other direction; most teams aren't as physical under the basket. Nonetheless, it showed
that against top level comp, Mason is still not an effective low post scorer. Hopefully, by NCAA time, when he'll be facing players like that in most games, he may
be better; but now that he's a junior, I'm not sure how much better. We'll see.

Despite your clarification, I still beg to differ. Mason was a positive in the MSU game (more on the defensive end than the offensive end), although his stats were down compared to the other teams we've played. It was a one game sample, but even in that one game he was far from "nowhere". It may be semantics, but I interpret "nowhere" as being lost, not a positive contributor (or even a negative for our team). Mason, to my eyes, has made a significant improvement this year in all phases except free-throws.

[Saratoga2]

Define "a lot," please.

Mason (averaging a double/double) and Ryan have been two of our best players so far this year, and Miles is averaging 7.5 ppg and 6.3 rpg in fewer than 18 minutes a game. So all three of them are "players," too. Not sure why you think two of those three don't deserve to be on the floor almost all the time.



I agree with this. Andre, Mason, and Miles all seem to play better when they knock down a few early in the game. On the one hand, I think we need to feed them all early to get them going. On the other hand, I wish they'd all play with the same intensity whether they get going early or not.



I agree. Although some of it is on him. The one time I saw him work hard for his shot, they fed him and he hit the three (in the first half). Very next possession, I watched him and he was just standing in place. If he'd run around and worked for a shot again, maybe they'd have fed him again?



He got 12 minutes today and has averaged 10 per game so far. How many minutes do you expect from him? Austin and Seth are going to play big minutes game in and game out (and if one of them plays less, like Austin against Michigan State, it will probably be Andre or maybe Tyler who takes up the slack, rather than Quinn). Today, Andre played 20 minutes and Tyler played 17 -- do you think their minutes should be drastically reduced to allow Quinn to play more? Our three main bigs played 70 minutes (and Josh played 8 of the remaining 10, showing that today we didn't play four guards pretty much at all). So unless you think Tyler (and/or Andre, but that's even less likely) will get his minutes drastically reduced, there's really no room for Quinn to increase his minutes by any significant amount. Maybe by the end of the year, Tyler and Quinn will reverse (Quinn 15-20 and Tyler 8-12 instead of vice versa), but that's about as high as I believe Quinn will get this season.

Next season I imagine he'll play more.

They fact that Quinn played 12 minutes tonight and had rdeally meaningful minutes will pay dividends in the upcoming tournament. Three games in as many days against quality opponents will be a challenge and we need all the effective players we can field. Ditto for Josh, who has gotten a few effective minutes here and there. The one area where our guys haven't come along to date is at small forward where our backups Michael hasn't played that well yet and Alex hasn't played at all.

We have a solid lineup with Seth, Austin and Dre at guard and Ryan and Mason at forward with Tyler and Quinn at backups and Miles and Josh to backup the bigs. It will be a tough series of games with a face pace and also some amount of bruising play. Of course the opponents will face the same. Plus the long flight out to Maui. I think everyone came away from last nights game in good shape. I heard that Austin has been nursing a sore hip, but he seemed fluid last night.

[ACCBBallFan]

I know that it is only 3 games in but if Coach K is not going to play Murphy why not red shirt him ?

Not last night, but in a prior presser, coach K started to say something about Alex that made me think he had a minor injury but then he changed topics without completing that thought.

Given Alex's happiness when Todd Z got in the prior game, I do not think he is disgruntled.

[slower]

I am interested in how people saw Andre's play tonight. Was the defense set up to stop him or did he just have an off night? It would seem a 6'4" guard out there would have given Duke a defensive advantage.

Sometimes it almost seems like a "worst of both worlds" situation for Dre. At times, he stands around. I noticed several times last night when he and Austin were bunched together on one side of the court, although it's possible that the designed play was a clearout/iso for Seth. Other times, Dre will do some JJ-style running to get open and just won't get the pass. It's obvious that Austin is the most prone to go for the Kobe-type posessions, where he just holds on to the ball and waits for his moment to drive. I'll be curious to see whether having either Ty or Quinn at point will get Dre more shot opportunities than the Seth/Austin combo. Just as some games are decided by matchups, so are individual offensive opportunities decided by Duke's personnel on the court at the momemt. So Dre may be FORCED to develop a more varied game (rather than just running around, waiting to get the pass and take his shot) in order to get his touches.

Just read some other posts - sorry if mine was redundant.

[ACCBBallFan]

Here are the +/- and lineup combos for the Davidson game:

Pts Vs. +/-
73 59 14 Austin
39 25 14 Miles
30 17 13 Quinn
57 48 09 Mason
34 26 08 Tyler
42 36 05 Dre
69 65 04 Seth
15 12 03 Josh
49 49 00 Ryan
02 08 -6 Mike

Min PtsFor PtsVs. +/- Line-Up

6.9 10 16 (6) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Ryan - the starting lineup was on floor together 4 times and only managed 0,-1,-2 and -3.

5.0 12 08 4 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Tyler two times together +6 and -2

4.2 10 08 2 Seth-Austin-Dre-Miles-Josh

3.8 09 04 5 Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Miles

3.6 09 04 5 Austin-Mason-Miles-Tyler-Quinn two times together +6 and -1

2.8 04 09 (5) Seth-Austin-Ryan-Miles-Quinn two times together -5 and 0

2.5 02 04 (2) Seth-Austin-Dre-Mason-Josh

2.3 02 08 (6) Seth-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Mike

2.2 04 04 0 Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Tyler

1.8 09 02 7 Seth-Austin-Mason-Ryan-Quinn

1.5 04 00 4 Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Quinn

1.5 03 00 3 Seth-Dre-Miles-Tyler-Josh

1.4 04 02 2 Seth-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn

0.7 00 00 0 Austin-Mason-Ryan-Tyler-Quinn

40 82 69 13

On a +/- per minute basis:

PPM Vs/M +/- per minute

2.5 - 1.4 = 1.1 Quinn

2.2 - 1.4 = 0.8 Miles

2.1 - 1.6 = 0.5 Tyler

2.1 - 1.7 = 0.4 Austin
1.9 - 1.5 = 0.4 Josh

2.0 - 1.7 = 0.3 Mason
1.9 - 1.6 = 0.3 Dre

2.0 - 1.9 = 0.1 Seth

0.9 - 3.5 =-2.6 Mike

On POG, when I combine favorable metrics likes minutes, points rebounds, assists, steals, blocks minus fouls minus turnovers and label that "Metrics" and combine that with +/-, Mason and Ausitn neither of whom Davidson could stop lead:

Metrics +/- Sum
58 09 67 Mason Plumlee, F
53 14 67 Austin Rivers, G

53 04 57 Seth Curry, G

29 14 43 Miles Plumlee, F
41 00 41 Ryan Kelly, F

23 13 36 Quinn Cook, G
25 06 31 Andre Dawkins, G

17 08 25 Tyler Thornton, G

10 03 13 Josh Hairston, F

00 -6 -6 Michael Gbinije, G-F

[jimsumner]

Not last night, but in a prior presser, coach K started to say something about Alex that made me think he had a minor injury but then he changed topics without completing that thought.

Given Alex's happiness when Todd Z got in the prior game, I do not think he is disgruntled.

Murphy suffered a concussion in practice. It's not a secret. Been discussed.

As a result, he's behind. He'll catch up. He'll play.

[ACCBBallFan]

Murphy suffered a concussion in practice. It's not a secret. Been discussed.

As a result, he's behind. He'll catch up. He'll play.

Thanks, Jim.

I have been off the boards the last couple of weeks out of town dealing with mother-in-law illness. She is now doing better and I trust Alex will be back soon.

[FellowTraveler]

Yes, but--1) it didn't seem to me his teammates looked for Andre as much as they could have given his Michigan St. performance, especially after he hit that three in the first half; 2) Despite greatly improved defense and focus, it still seems Andre has less margin for error from the coaches than some other players, for whatever reason. He was immediately removed after his travel in the second half and never got back in the game.

I don't disagree that Andre is not the best ball handler among the guards, but he is not a primary ball handler anyway, and I'm not sure why a game like Michigan St. doesn't earn him a little more margin for error in the next game than he got here, given the number of errors of various types by other guards.

My primary reaction to the game is frustration at Andre’s usage. There should have been a real effort to build on his huge game against Michigan State, and there wasn’t. He barely touched the ball in the first 5 minutes of the game, if at all. The game was 10 minutes old by the time he got his first shot. Teammates simply weren’t looking for him, and missed opportunities to get him the ball when he was open. And there certainly weren’t plays run to set him up. This is, to me, a huge mistake. Dawkins has the ability to be an excellent and consistent player; establishing him and building some momentum in that direction is as important as doing so for Mason. Instead, the reaction to his big game seems to have been “OK, now we can go back to ignoring him.”

(Just like last year: 28 points on 17 shots in 31 minutes against Bradley, followed three days later by 2 points on 2 shots in 18 minutes against St. Louis.)

And it isn’t like Dawkins stunk up the joint when he was on the court last night: His defense was fine, and when he did occasionally touch the ball, he made good decisions In addition to his 1 official assist -- a pass to a wide-open Ryan Kelly for a three when he could easily have forced his own, less-open shot -- he made a nice pass to Miles on an all-too-rare pick and roll (Miles ended up charging) and had another good play to set up a good-but-missed shot I don’t recall.

Yet he spent a lot of time on the bench, and a lot of time with teammates not seeming to realize he was on the court. IIRC, he sat for several minutes shortly after hitting his three in the first half. And for an extended stretch after the travel in the second half, which didn’t appear to be a mental lapse or anything egregious -- he simply lost balance and his pivot foot slid. If, as it appears, things like that get him pinned to the bench, but other guards can force off-balance, contested shots against multiple defenders while ignoring wide-open teammates without fear of sitting … well, that doesn’t seem ideal to me.

Now, I don’t know Andre Dawkins. I don’t know what happens in practices, or what kinds of incentives and disincentives he responds well to. The only information I have is what I see happen in games. But it is increasingly difficult to trust that his development is being maximized -- by him or his coaches.

Otherwise, there was a lot to like about last night’s game -- Mason, Austin & Cook, particularly.

Maybe Austin’s most encouraging outing so far, exhibitions included. He’s previously shown a great first step -- but while many have seen a player who can get into the lane at will, I haven’t. I’ve seen a player who has real difficulty after that first step: He has trouble maintaining separation from his defenders, trouble understanding when he can get a shot off, trouble finishing, trouble staying under control, and a general lack of awareness of the possibility and benefits of passing the ball while driving. All of that is fixable, and he looked a lot better against Davidson -- took better shots, stayed under control on his drives, etc. He has a lot of room for improvement, but there are some very positive signs. He’s performing much better at this stage than I expected after the China trip.

Cook seems to have the potential to be a better defender than I thought (or perhaps more accurately, a good defender sooner than I thought.) His free throw shooting inspires more confidence than that of anyone else on the team, save perhaps Ryan -- not an insignificant thing on a team that will likely be clinging to some late leads, and that has struggled from the line.

And Mason? I'll keep it short: Get Mason the ball.

[MCFinARL]

Sometimes it almost seems like a "worst of both worlds" situation for Dre. At times, he stands around. I noticed several times last night when he and Austin were bunched together on one side of the court, although it's possible that the designed play was a clearout/iso for Seth. Other times, Dre will do some JJ-style running to get open and just won't get the pass. It's obvious that Austin is the most prone to go for the Kobe-type posessions, where he just holds on to the ball and waits for his moment to drive. I'll be curious to see whether having either Ty or Quinn at point will get Dre more shot opportunities than the Seth/Austin combo. Just as some games are decided by matchups, so are individual offensive opportunities decided by Duke's personnel on the court at the momemt. So Dre may be FORCED to develop a more varied game (rather than just running around, waiting to get the pass and take his shot) in order to get his touches.

Just read some other posts - sorry if mine was redundant.

Don't think it was redundant at all--your insight about the impact of personnel on the court is definitely value added to the discussion.

[ncexnyc]

Who was that youngster wearing Mason's #5 last night. Whoever it was, Coach K needs to offer him a scholarship immediately. That kid was definitely a pressence in the post on both ends of the court. All fun aside, it was a huge game for Mason. Nice to see the power moves around the hoop. The alleyoop was nice, but what I loved seeing the most and hope to see more of in the future was the full court pass to Miles. As soon as Mason snagged that rebound his eyes were looking downcourt. With the guards we have we should try to exploit that aspect of Mason's game more often.

Miles played much better last night. Maybe he got the message K sent by having Josh as the first big off the bench. Some nice free throw shooting as well.

Austin had a really nice game. Not many players will be able to keep him from getting to the rim. A couple of turnovers, but we'll have to live with them if we want him to continue in attack mode. Hopefully he'll learn when to pick his spots.

Ryan was solid. He's becoming more and more of a force on the defensive end. He continues to get those sneaky steals and it looked as though he had a couple of nice blocks as well.

Josh got some early minutes and he always brings energy when he's on the court. I like his future and believe he'll be a key contributor next year.

Dre was his usual self. Teases us with a monster game and then fades away the next. The team as a whole didn't shoot many threes, but come on Dre let us know you're out there.

Seth played extremely well. Still not sold he'll be the PG at season's end, but wherever he plays, he'll be a major contributor.

Tyler got his minutes. Nothing really sticks out about his time last night. Maybe that's a good thing as we normally sing his praises when he picks us up when we're playing flat. For the most part we were in the game from start to finish and really didn't have any lulls in intensity.

Quinn looked very quick. Never really heard him mentioned like that leading up to his arrival, but he's got a nice bounce in his game and he'll be hard to keep off the court.

Silent G, well he was pretty quiet. Hopefuly he'll feel more comfortable as the season progresses.

Over the past few games a number of posters have discussed the size of our rotation. I believe that this is one year Coach K might have a very deep bench. I believe this, because I don't think anyone's role is set in stone at this point in time. After the overseas tour many felt it was Miles and Ryan. Then we saw Mason and Miles and last night it was Mason and Ryan as our starting frontcourt. In the past we returned players who were for the most part penciled into the starting line-up and the only way they wouldn't be there was if they got injured. I don't believe that to be the case this year.

The backcourt situation is just as fluid as the frontcourt. Seth, while playing solid PG, is going to be pushed hard by Quinn. If Quinn continues his rapid development he could crack the starting line-up by season's end. Would that mean Seth slides to the 2 spot? Well if Dre doesn't become more consistent I could certainly envision Austin moving to the 3 and Seth going to the 2.

I don't think any of this is a problem. It's nice to have all these great players and practices should be very competitive. I look back at Hansbro's run and one of the key factor in why they dominated us over that stretch was their depth. For the most part it seemed like we would hang with our starters, but then they would put in a wave of quality subs and the fresh legs would prevail. I believe we'll see a lot of match-up play utilized by Coach K this year taking advantage of our quality depth, but I guess only time will tell.

[davekay1971]

With regards to depth (which number was that on the Throatybeard guide?) I think the simplest way to look at it is that we're going to be deep enough. Regardless of how many guys average 10+ minutes (my guess is 7, though Quinn may make it 8), we're going to have ample depth, barring injury of course, to handle both fatigue and foul difficulty.

We have a very solid 3 man rotation at the 4/5, with Josh capable of adding quality minutes as well.

We have a solid 5 man rotation at the perimeter, and I believe, after seeing Quinn, that it will be a VERY solid 5 man rotation.

Given the lack of a true SF, Alex and Silent G could possibly play their way into more minutes, but even with them not playing significant minutes, we have good depth on both the interior and perimeter.

[Indoor66]

Regarding Andre, I too noticed him apparently open in the corner and he did not get the ball. I also noticed that in a number of those moments, the player with the ball would have had to make a dangerous, low percentage pass to get it to him.

It also appeared to me that the game plan was to score on the interior - either by driving the ball or by passing to the bigs and let them work. Check the box score on the limited number of 3's by the team - we only shot 13 3's. I would guess that this is a season low on 3's (too lazy to check).

[DuKe4LiFe#30]

Would like to see austin make some outside shots

If we play memphis in maui quinn should get extended minutes aganist joe jackson

Run plays for ANDRE!!!!!

[wsb3]

Quinn Cook played solid down the stretch. He has all the requisite skill sets so I believe his court minutes will steadily increase over the season. His ball handling and free throw shooting will ensure he is in games at crunch time.

Impressed with Cook also.. Curious if anyone sees him running the point & Curry sliding back to wing on a regular basis as the season progresses?.. Regardless agree that he has some serious upside.. & who knows where he would be now if the knee had not held him back.

As for the 4 guard talk..I hope not..I hate when we lose because of getting killed on the boards.

[elvis14]

My semi random thoughts after watching the game and reading the other posts:

Add me to the list of guys that loved what I saw from Mason last night.
There was a stretch in the second half as we pulled away that I thought we played out best ball yet this season and looked dominant
As long as I'm adding myself to lists, add me to the list of guy that's looking forward to seeing what Koach does with Quinn Cook. People around here love to post "it's not who starts the game, it's who finishes it" and last night when Davidson was trying to make a run QC was inserted into the lineup and played really well.
I was glad to see Miles have a decent game after that MSU fiasco
I wish there was another game today, I'm already starting to love this year's team

I am interested in how people saw Andre's play tonight. Was the defense set up to stop him or did he just have an off night? It would seem a 6'4" guard out there would have given Duke a defensive advantage.

Clearly having Ryan off the court for much of the 1st have due to foul trouble had an impact on the game. He has a lot of value out there.



Hey coach, dust off some of those old JJ plays and give Dawkins a few to run at the beginning of every game. If he gets going early that makes things a lot easier for the rest of the team.

I was also disappointed in the way Andre was used last night. Against MSU they were running a few plays for him and trying to get him the ball. I think that getting him started early is important and agree that his playing well really opens things up for others.

Saratoga2, good point about Kelly. Although Miles did play better, I thought that having Kelly miss time in the first half was a big part of Davidson's success.

[NSDukeFan]

Regarding Andre, I too noticed him apparently open in the corner and he did not get the ball. I also noticed that in a number of those moments, the player with the ball would have had to make a dangerous, low percentage pass to get it to him.

It also appeared to me that the game plan was to score on the interior - either by driving the ball or by passing to the bigs and let them work. Check the box score on the limited number of 3's by the team - we only shot 13 3's. I would guess that this is a season low on 3's (too lazy to check).

If the team is trying to get the ball inside, Andre can be helpful even if he is not moving and not scoring. Teams should know they have to guard him at the three point line which helps to spread the floor to give the interior and penetrating players more room to operate. If Andre is defending well, he can be a positive without seeming to contribute much offensively. I, like most of us, hope that Andre can be a more consistent scorer as well as a more versatile scorer (penetrating and pump fakes and pull ups), but if he helps the team spread the floor, defends well and wins the team a game (MSU) or two (or almost wins the team a game, Wisconsin Big10 challenge) he can still be a big contributor to this team.

[Rudy]

So often big guys have huge expectations put upon them and fans get frustrated if the player seems slow to meet the expectations. It was certainly true of Zoubs and we know that his injuries hampered his progress. Then Zoubs got healthy at the right time and gave us a great run to the championship. With Mason we see how he rebounds, see how he has developed a hook shot (finally) and see him make strong moves to the basket instead of fade-aways and we think GREAT, he's arrived! But then we see him take about six steps with the ball on a post move and wonder why he hasn't mastered footwork or wonder why he hasn't conquered his mental issues with free throws. He hasn't become a dominant player but he's become very good and I believe he'll get better as the season goes on.

It's going to be a fun season because several players are good but can be a lot better---or they could have a rash of turnovers or loss of focus and lose a few games.

[Gthoma2a]

I think that there is something to be said of Marshall showing up and Miles playing as hard as he can to make an impact in his senior year. Remember that during 2010 our practices were known for being brutal and making the team into the tough, gritty team that got us a banner. Players would have to play through tougher contact every day than they ever encountered in games, so they knew that getting it done was more important than what happened while you were trying.

[Kedsy]

If a team is forcing him to drive effectively, I don't see why Quinn playing more isn't a good idea.

Because offense is only half the game. Quinn looked decent on D last night -- he's getting better. But even when he gets to the point where he's a solid defensive contributor, I don't think we'll see Quinn/Seth/Austin for long stretches at a time. That's a very undersized perimeter, which on defense is bad for a lot of reasons, even if all three individuals play solid one-on-one D.

As Quinn's defense improves, he may take some minutes from Tyler, but absent injury I think there's a ceiling to how much he'll be used this season. In my mind, the only way he'll take a large chunk of Andre's current minutes is if Andre collapses on the defensive end. As long as Andre's defense is good, he's valuable enough on offense that I don't think even Quinn's considerable offensive gifts will keep Andre off the court.


Even last night, though, I think Andre was working harder, and more often, than he did most of last season--but not as much as in the previous game. There may be a little bit of a chicken-and-egg situation here. Hopefully it will sort itself out.


I'll be curious to see whether having either Ty or Quinn at point will get Dre more shot opportunities than the Seth/Austin combo.

I don't know. Last year, I thought Seth got the ball to Andre better and more often than Nolan or Tyler did. Even more than Kyrie did, although Kyrie certainly passed to Andre from time to time.

I think McFinARL is right. Andre seems to work harder for his shot when he's been rewarded the past few times. His teammates look for him more after he's hit a few. It's a circular thing. If Andre kept working even when he's not seeing the ball, I believe he'd eventually see the ball and over time his teammates would learn to look for him more. Hopefully, as you say, it will sort itself out.

[dcdevil2009]

Am I the only one that sees a lot of Chris Duhon in Quinn Cook's game? Granted Duhon was probably more talented coming in and is Duke's all time leader in minutes played, but when he gets on the floor Quinn seems to play a similar role to a freshman year Duhon and looks like he's got that same calmness and quiet swagger that made Duhon such a great leader in his later years. I can definitely see Quinn leading the team in floor slaps, being the first to huddle everyone up on the court, and wanting the ball to go through him with the game on the line for the next few years.

Imagine how many Duhon/Jay Williams and Kyrie/Quinn comparisons there would be if those two could have played together.

[Kedsy]

Imagine how many Duhon/Jay Williams and Kyrie/Quinn comparisons there would be if those two could have played together.

Personally, I think Austin Rivers is more of an analog for Jason Williams than Kyrie Irving was. Jason was more of a combo guard than a "true point." He seemed to look for his own shot first and (especially his freshman year) he turned the ball over a lot. To me, at least, his game looked a lot more like Austin's than it looked like Kyrie's.

Which means you can still have your Duhon/Williams comparison, if you can deal with two freshmen playing the roles instead of a freshman and a sophomore.

[Dukeface88]

Granted Duhon was probably more talented coming in and is Duke's all time leader in minutes played

Minor correction: Duhon was Duke's all time leader in minutes played. Kyle passed him last year (4887 to 4813).

[dcdevil2009]

Personally, I think Austin Rivers is more of an analog for Jason Williams than Kyrie Irving was. Jason was more of a combo guard than a "true point." He seemed to look for his own shot first and (especially his freshman year) he turned the ball over a lot. To me, at least, his game looked a lot more like Austin's than it looked like Kyrie's.

Which means you can still have your Duhon/Williams comparison, if you can deal with two freshmen playing the roles instead of a freshman and a sophomore.

I don't need need the multi-party comparison, and don't see nearly as many similarities between Kyrie/Austin and Williams as between Cook and Duhon. However, it wasn't so much the freshman/sophomore roles as it was the up tempo game we could play with Kyrie and Williams that created the comparison. In a half court set, I'd agree that Austin is the better analog, but defensively and in transition, I still think it's Kyrie. I'd also suggest that your similarities between Austin and Williams could be said about almost all talented freshmen (decision-making and turnovers), but both Austin and Williams were among the best in the nation at creating shots or getting to the rim whenever they wanted. But regardless of those comparisons, I would love to see the Quinn Duhon comparison play out over the next few years.

[Gthoma2a]

Because offense is only half the game. Quinn looked decent on D last night -- he's getting better. But even when he gets to the point where he's a solid defensive contributor, I don't think we'll see Quinn/Seth/Austin for long stretches at a time. That's a very undersized perimeter, which on defense is bad for a lot of reasons, even if all three individuals play solid one-on-one D.

As Quinn's defense improves, he may take some minutes from Tyler, but absent injury I think there's a ceiling to how much he'll be used this season. In my mind, the only way he'll take a large chunk of Andre's current minutes is if Andre collapses on the defensive end. As long as Andre's defense is good, he's valuable enough on offense that I don't think even Quinn's considerable offensive gifts will keep Andre off the court.





I don't know. Last year, I thought Seth got the ball to Andre better and more often than Nolan or Tyler did. Even more than Kyrie did, although Kyrie certainly passed to Andre from time to time.

I think McFinARL is right. Andre seems to work harder for his shot when he's been rewarded the past few times. His teammates look for him more after he's hit a few. It's a circular thing. If Andre kept working even when he's not seeing the ball, I believe he'd eventually see the ball and over time his teammates would learn to look for him more. Hopefully, as you say, it will sort itself out.

Quinn gives us more points per minute than any of the guys we are talking about taking playing time from, he has athleticism, and he has effort. He has the ability to be a scorer like freshman Jay with the passing of Kendall Marshall (it is all he has, but he is somehow thought of as an NBA player according to draft speculation). He isn't as centered on any one thing, but he has the skills to pick and choose what he does. He has a season to learn the defensive system, but he has all the tools necessary to master it.

I don't think that Tyler is comfortable shooting. Tyler seems disappointed when he has to shoot (it was like when he shot an airball last night from 3). Tyler looks for guys, but when he doesn't see them, he seems uncomfortable. This means that teams will be likely to slack off of him and focus more on Austin (not good). That means that Austin is less effective.

Throwing Andre in is great when he isn't forced to handle the ball a lot around fast defenders. Andre is a great offensive threat like JJ (sharpshooter), but he can't use his athleticism without his handle. He may need set plays against better teams. That means that we have two ball handlers and one guy you need to make sure doesn't get the ball off of screens. Still good, but not ideal for the entire game.

Seth is a good ball handler, but he is used to playing as an off the ball guy, and I think that is where he is best (Nolan was our ball handler last year and he could pick and choose what he did masterfully). I think Seth would be best as a scorer with his options opened up with two other good ball handlers to keep defenses spread.

I am not even saying for sure that Quinn needs or will succeed with a lot of minutes, but I would like to see how it goes. That is what I am advocating.

[Kedsy]

Quinn gives us more points per minute than any of the guys we are talking about taking playing time from, he has athleticism, and he has effort. He has the ability to be a scorer like freshman Jay with the passing of Kendall Marshall (it is all he has, but he is somehow thought of as an NBA player according to draft speculation). He isn't as centered on any one thing, but he has the skills to pick and choose what he does. He has a season to learn the defensive system, but he has all the tools necessary to master it.

I agree with you that Quinn is a good player and once he learns the defensive system he'll be a great asset for the team, although I don't think points per minute means that much when he has so few minutes compared to the others (especially since he went scoreless in our two games against better competition). I also don't think we've seen nearly enough of him to compare him to either Jason Williams or Kendall Marshall. Nor, even if he surpasses all expectations, would I even dream that Quinn's performance this season will come anywhere close to Jason Williams or Kendall Marshall in their freshman seasons.

He only has two assists so far this season, in 40 minutes. In Kendall Marshall's first 44 minutes (3 games) at UNC he had 16 assists. And while I previously said per minute stats don't mean that much, 16 to 2 is a big discrepancy, especially since Marshall ended up the ACC leader in assists. So far when he's played, Quinn's primarily been a scorer, rather than a distributor. If that's going to be his role, I wouldn't take him over Andre, at least not at this point in time.

In the end, I agree with you that it would be interesting to see how well Quinn would perform with starters' minutes. But historically that's not the way K operates. He gives people big minutes after he's fairly certain how well they'll perform, as opposed to throwing them in the water just to see if they can swim.

[Newton_14]

I agree with you that Quinn is a good player and once he learns the defensive system he'll be a great asset for the team, although I don't think points per minute means that much when he has so few minutes compared to the others (especially since he went scoreless in our two games against better competition). I also don't think we've seen nearly enough of him to compare him to either Jason Williams or Kendall Marshall. Nor, even if he surpasses all expectations, would I even dream that Quinn's performance this season will come anywhere close to Jason Williams or Kendall Marshall in their freshman seasons.

He only has two assists so far this season, in 40 minutes. In Kendall Marshall's first 44 minutes (3 games) at UNC he had 16 assists. And while I previously said per minute stats don't mean that much, 16 to 2 is a big discrepancy, especially since Marshall ended up the ACC leader in assists. So far when he's played, Quinn's primarily been a scorer, rather than a distributor. If that's going to be his role, I wouldn't take him over Andre, at least not at this point in time.

In the end, I agree with you that it would be interesting to see how well Quinn would perform with starters' minutes. But historically that's not the way K operates. He gives people big minutes after he's fairly certain how well they'll perform, as opposed to throwing them in the water just to see if they can swim.

I am a bit miffed as to why some are wanting Seth's role to change from what it is now. He is averaging 15.8 ppg on 51% shooting from the floor, a scorching hot 58% from 3, 3.0 assists, 2 steals pg, and 4.3 rpg. He is the teams leading scorer, and the offense is fine under his leadership. The team can score in a variety of ways. What is Seth going to gain by having his position changed? We don't need him to average 18-20 ppg with the scoring balance we have on this team. If he were struggling in the pg role, and the team was struggling to generate points, I could understand it, but that is clearly not the case.

I think the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here.

[Kedsy]

I am a bit miffed as to why some are wanting Seth's role to change from what it is now. He is averaging 15.8 ppg on 51% shooting from the floor, a scorching hot 58% from 3, 3.0 assists, 2 steals pg, and 4.3 rpg. He is the teams leading scorer, and the offense is fine under his leadership. The team can score in a variety of ways. What is Seth going to gain by having his position changed? We don't need him to average 18-20 ppg with the scoring balance we have on this team. If he were struggling in the pg role, and the team was struggling to generate points, I could understand it, but that is clearly not the case.

I think the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here.

I hope you don't think I was advocating changing Seth's role. I've been more or less arguing the opposite.

[Newton_14]

I hope you don't think I was advocating changing Seth's role. I've been more or less arguing the opposite.

Not at all. Sorry for the confusion. I was agreeing with you. I just replied to your post because it was the latest in the discussion. I agree with your points on the situation and your comments on Quinn.

[Gthoma2a]

I am a bit miffed as to why some are wanting Seth's role to change from what it is now. He is averaging 15.8 ppg on 51% shooting from the floor, a scorching hot 58% from 3, 3.0 assists, 2 steals pg, and 4.3 rpg. He is the teams leading scorer, and the offense is fine under his leadership. The team can score in a variety of ways. What is Seth going to gain by having his position changed? We don't need him to average 18-20 ppg with the scoring balance we have on this team. If he were struggling in the pg role, and the team was struggling to generate points, I could understand it, but that is clearly not the case.

I think the old saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies here.

I don't want to change his capacity wholesale, but I would like to see us try and use Quinn for a decent amount of time as an experiment. I feel like Seth is a veteran who can do whatever we need him to do. The way I see it, you never know if you don't try. I am not saying move Quinn to the point for the entire season without seeing how it affects us, but seeing how it affects us before we say that it is a bad idea.

[Devilsfan]

Tyler and Quinn seem a little height challenged. I loved it when we had a taller point guard that intimidated and dominated the opponents like Kyrie.

[bass-piscator]

"Andre is a great offensive threat like JJ (sharpshooter)"

I may sound like a broken record this year, but exept for both having a nice looking stroke there is no "like JJ" here. Dawkins may go off every once in a while but JJ went off almost every game. And that with many times two guys chasing him around the court.

[devilsadvocate85]

Tyler and Quinn seem a little height challenged. I loved it when we had a taller point guard that intimidated and dominated the opponents like Kyrie.

Kyrie -- 6' 2"
Tyler -- 6' 1"
Quin -- 6' 0"

You really think that makes much of a difference as a PG, or was this a sarcastic post and I missed it?

[uh_no]

Kyrie -- 6' 2"
Tyler -- 6' 1"
Quin -- 6' 0"

You really think that makes much of a difference as a PG, or was this a sarcastic post and I missed it?

I think to really understand a players size, you have to have their reach too. And while I agree with your post in principle, Is it possible that kyrie had a huge wingspan as well?

[Olympic Fan]

Personally, I think Austin Rivers is more of an analog for Jason Williams than Kyrie Irving was. Jason was more of a combo guard than a "true point." He seemed to look for his own shot first and (especially his freshman year) he turned the ball over a lot. To me, at least, his game looked a lot more like Austin's than it looked like Kyrie's.


You're making the same mistake that bill Guthridge made. Because Jason was such a great scorer, you can't see that he was a pure point.

Jason has the second highest assist per game average in Duke history -- he averaged 6.0 assists a game. His 644 assists are the fourth-best in Duke history -- the three guys ahead of him (Hurley, Duhon and Amaker) all played four years. Only Hurley (an unreal 7.7 assists a game) was as a better distributor. And Jason's turnovers weren't that bad -- he has the 10th best assist-turnover ratio in Duke history.

Considering that he was also the leading scorer on two of three teams he played on (averaging 21-plus points a game as a soph and a junior), his assist totals become more amazing. The toughest thing for a scorer to do -- and Seth is wrestling with this now -- is to balance his own scoring responsibilities with his playmaking responsibilities. Scheyer did a good job with that in 2010. Nolan did a good job with that after Kyrie got hurt last season (although, if you remember, be struggled a bit with it in December) ... but nobody Duke has had has balanced those two things as well as Jason Williams did.

For the record, Kyrie averaged less than 5 assists a game ... he actually scored a little better as a freshman (17.5 ppg. to 14.5 ppg) than Williams -- so he was more of a scorer and less of a playmaker.

I repeat that by any rational definition of the term, Jason Williams was a pure point guard.

PS The Guthridge reference is to the fact that Jason grew up a UNC fan and wanted to play for the Tar Heels. But he also wanted to be a point guard and Guthridge told him they were solid at the point (they had just recruited Ron Curry) and only saw him as a wing guard.

[jimsumner]

Tyler and Quinn seem a little height challenged. I loved it when we had a taller point guard that intimidated and dominated the opponents like Kyrie.

That's why Ty Lawson was so ineffectual against Duke. Just wasn't tall enough. :)

Seriously, how many of Duke's best point guards have been taller than the norm? Scheyer, for sure. Capel, who was more of a combo. Jason Williams was strong as an ox, but not exceptionally tall. Daniel Ewing played one season at the point, at 6-3. Snyder's 6-3. Not all that tall.

Tommy Amaker, Bobby Hurley, Wojo, Avery, Williams, Duhon, Irving, Nolan. These guys were all in the 6-0--6-2 range, typical for a college point guard. I don't recall any of them being posted up on a regular basis by opposing points or being unable to pass over longer defenders.

I just don't see either Cook or Thornton as being at a disadvantage because of their height. Now, playing both of them at the same time, that's a different story. But only one is a point in that scenario.

[Kedsy]

Because Jason was such a great scorer, you can't see that he was a pure point.

You could be right, but I'm not sure. I know Jason's assist numbers, but his game always struck me as more of a combo guard. When he and Duhon ran together, my recollection (which could be faulty) was that Duhon ran the point. And assists don't tell the whole story. When Grant Hill was a senior, he averaged 5.2 assists per game (more than Kyrie, as you point out). Didn't make Grant a pure point.

[Troublemaker]

I don't want to change his capacity wholesale, but I would like to see us try and use Quinn for a decent amount of time as an experiment. I feel like Seth is a veteran who can do whatever we need him to do. The way I see it, you never know if you don't try. I am not saying move Quinn to the point for the entire season without seeing how it affects us, but seeing how it affects us before we say that it is a bad idea.

Haha, I'm pretty sure Coach K and staff have already seen all the possible backcourt combinations in practice and continue to experiment there. Basically YOU want to see it in a game for YOUR benefit since practices aren't televised, but the coaches are already well aware of what currently works and what currently doesn't.

The good news is, Quinn seems to be getting better and perhaps is in the midst of expanding his role gradually. Heck, he could very well start later on in the season, who knows. I have the utmost confidence that Coach K and staff are continually evaluating the team and when a player reaches a point where they deserve to start, then he will.

[DukeCrow]

You could be right, but I'm not sure. I know Jason's assist numbers, but his game always struck me as more of a combo guard. When he and Duhon ran together, my recollection (which could be faulty) was that Duhon ran the point. And assists don't tell the whole story. When Grant Hill was a senior, he averaged 5.2 assists per game (more than Kyrie, as you point out). Didn't make Grant a pure point.

If I recall correctly, people were calling Grant a point forward that year because he ran the offense quite a bit. Even if he didn't bring the ball up the court, he would get the ball after it crossed mid-court, and the offense would run through him.

[Kedsy]

If I recall correctly, people were calling Grant a point forward that year because he ran the offense quite a bit. Even if he didn't bring the ball up the court, he would get the ball after it crossed mid-court, and the offense would run through him.

Yes, many people did, although people also described Jeff Capel as a point guard that year (although really he was more of a combo guard, too). Both Grant in '94 and Jason Williams when he was here had the ball in their hands a LOT. Johnny Dawkins, too, back in the day. And they all had a lot of assists. Yet, I would still argue they were "combo" players and not "pure points."

To me, Austin Rivers reminds me of Jason Williams and Johnny Dawkins a lot more than Kyrie Irving did.

[sagegrouse]

I think to really understand a players size, you have to have their reach too. And while I agree with your post in principle, Is it possible that kyrie had a huge wingspan as well?

Look you are dodging the main issue: bring on the cinderblocks!

sage

[uh_no]

Look you are dodging the main issue: bring on the cinderblocks!

sage

I thought we settled this: Pres. B is tall enough to play PG but dean sue was not.....oh wait that was QB

[devildeac]

And just think about what great big men coaches Quinn, Tyler and Seth can become in 5-10 years or so:rolleyes:;).

[hustleplays]

My observation: Quinn Cook is a bona fide PG, with tremendous upside and currently adequate skills. I think that he ought to play more, right away, because he will make -- as his comfort level and proficiency in our system increase -- the trio of Austin, Seth and/or Dre much more effective. Not to mention feeding our bigs -- remember what KI did for Mason et al? Folks, we have no bona fide PG right now, and does anyone disagree that a true, really good PG is not critical? Seth is working hard at running the point, but he is not a true PG, taking in the entire scene. He thrives when someone feeds him the ball. Quinn has the talent to become a really good PG. The sooner he becomes proficient within our system and with our guys, the better our season will turn out. Maybe we lose several games early this season. Let's nurture our one and only true -- and very talented -- PG, so that we win at the end.




Impressed with Cook also.. Curious if anyone sees him running the point & Curry sliding back to wing on a regular basis as the season progresses?.. Regardless agree that he has some serious upside.. & who knows where he would be now if the knee had not held him back.

As for the 4 guard talk..I hope not..I hate when we lose because of getting killed on the boards.

[basket1544]

Point guard (or point forward in the case of Grant) versus shooting guard is more of a mindset than a size matchup position. Quinn and Tyler are point guards because when they are on the court, their mindset is pass first. Seth can setup and run the offense called from the bench, but he's not going to think pass first because he's a shooter. His instinct is to shoot the ball first, much like Jon and Nolan before him. Kyrie is a special case. His mindset seemed to be pass first, but he still managed to average the most points per minute played in Duke history. That's why he's the number 1 draft pick.

[Kedsy]

Folks, we have no bona fide PG right now, and does anyone disagree that a true, really good PG is not critical?

Have you not been reading this thread and the "conundrum" thread? Lots of people disagree, especially those who remember the last season we didn't really have a "true, really good PG," which was the season before last when we won a national championship. Even more people disagree with your assertion that we don't have a "bona fide PG right now." Seth is doing fine and will continue to improve.

Quinn will also continue to improve. As he earns more playing time he will get more playing time. Coach K has never lost games (or even risked losing games) so he can "nurture" a player. I'd be very surprised if he started now.

[Kedsy]

Point guard (or point forward in the case of Grant) versus shooting guard is more of a mindset than a size matchup position. Quinn and Tyler are point guards because when they are on the court, their mindset is pass first.

I don't entirely agree with this as the sole qualification. Billy King's "mindset" was to pass first (rather than shoot) but he wasn't anything close to a point guard. He just couldn't shoot.


Kyrie is a special case. His mindset seemed to be pass first, but he still managed to average the most points per minute played in Duke history.

Kyrie was/is good. Really good. But to say he "average[d] the most points per minutes played in Duke history" is somewhat disingenuous. First of all, far as I can tell, minutes played as a statistic wasn't kept until the mid/late 1970s. Guys like Groat and Verga (and probably others) almost certainly had more points per minute than Kyrie did. More importantly, Kyrie barely played 300 career minutes (and a disproportionate number of those minutes were against early season patsies), so he shouldn't qualify for any career records. If you want to talk about just season records, lots of guys (e.g., Redick, Laettner, J Williams, etc.) had better points per minute than Kyrie in a single season. Or, if you don't think there should be a minimum number of minutes to be eligible for career leader, then Kyrie still doesn't have the record because of walkons like Ned Franke, who played 3 minutes in 1982 and scored 2 points.

Now, you could argue that if I have to drag out names like Groat, Verga, Redick, Laettner, and Jason Williams (and, of course, Ned Franke) in order to refute your contention, then Kyrie must have been pretty darn good. And you'd be right, he was pretty darn good. But I just don't think we should prop up his pedestal by saying things like most points per minute (or anything else) in Duke history.

[uh_no]

I don't entirely agree with this as the sole qualification. Billy King's "mindset" was to pass first (rather than shoot) but he wasn't anything close to a point guard. He just couldn't shoot.



Kyrie was/is good. Really good. But to say he "average[d] the most points per minutes played in Duke history" is somewhat disingenuous. First of all, far as I can tell, minutes played as a statistic wasn't kept until the mid/late 1970s. Guys like Groat and Verga (and probably others) almost certainly had more points per minute than Kyrie did. More importantly, Kyrie barely played 300 career minutes (and a disproportionate number of those minutes were against early season patsies), so he shouldn't qualify for any career records. If you want to talk about just season records, lots of guys (e.g., Redick, Laettner, J Williams, etc.) had better points per minute than Kyrie in a single season. Or, if you don't think there should be a minimum number of minutes to be eligible for career leader, then Kyrie still doesn't have the record because of walkons like Ned Franke, who played 3 minutes in 1982 and scored 2 points.

Now, you could argue that if I have to drag out names like Groat, Verga, Redick, Laettner, and Jason Williams (and, of course, Ned Franke) in order to refute your contention, then Kyrie must have been pretty darn good. And you'd be right, he was pretty darn good. But I just don't think we should prop up his pedestal by saying things like most points per minute (or anything else) in Duke history.

the team only lost 1 game in which he played! he must be among the best dukies :P

[Kedsy]

Folks, we have no bona fide PG right now, and does anyone disagree that a true, really good PG is not critical?

We can go back and forth but I've been thinking and I wanted to attempt to clarify my position on this.

When I was at Duke I took a Philosophy course in Logic, and we read Plato. His hero, Socrates, would consistently trick other people into agreeing with him by sliding in seemingly innocuous but questionable premises and then building on them until his conclusion was irrefutable. It drove me crazy that the antagonists fell for Socrates's tricks every time.

This feels similar to me: PG is critical; Quinn is our only PG; therefore Quinn must play. I just don't agree with either of your premises*. So I don't agree with your conclusion.

Besides, we keep going like this, next thing you know we'll have no choice but to agree that Ray Charles is God. ;)



* (1) PG is important, yes, but not "critical," if by critical you mean the team can't succeed without a "true point."

(2) Quinn is not our only PG. In my opinion, Seth has more potential to be a successful PG by the end of this season as Quinn does. Even Austin may (although he also may not) have that potential. In future seasons, I believe Quinn may surpass both Seth's and Austin's PG skills (although that's not a lock, either, we'll just have to wait and see).



P.S.: I re-read my previous response to you, and I apologize if it came off as too snarky. It wasn't intended that way.

[dukepsy1963]

I was there.
Dre was off, Cook was on (great sticking to his man; and quick).

[OldPhiKap]

And just think about what great big men coaches Quinn, Tyler and Seth can become in 5-10 years or so:rolleyes:;).

lol. That is, of course, if they can beat out Dean Sue for the job.

[MCFinARL]

Besides, we keep going like this, next thing you know we'll have no choice but to agree that Ray Charles is God. ;)




Wait, what? He's not?

[Kedsy]

Wait, what? He's not?

Sorry, just a little syllogistic humor. I always liked that one.

[ncexnyc]

Can you actually believe there are people on this board who are suggesting that we play kids in their natural position. The next thing you know we'll have people coming on here saying you should eat cereal with a spoon instead of a fork.

[Kedsy]

Can you actually believe there are people on this board who are suggesting that we play kids in their natural position. The next thing you know we'll have people coming on here saying you should eat cereal with a spoon instead of a fork.

To me, "natural position" is a phrase that means nothing. What's important is who can help the team on the floor. Should we play a player who will help the team less just because he's more used to playing at a particular position than a better player? I wouldn't. If the team is better with Seth/Austin/Andre on the perimeter, shouldn't that be the predominant lineup? Even if none of them are "natural" PGs?

Basketball is a game that can be played successfully in many different ways. People who insist on "natural positions" seem to be seeing only one way. I'm glad that's not the way Coach K thinks.

[Billy Dat]

It's been a while since I've checked a post game thread this far after a game, always interesting what emerges as the primary topic/debate.

In this case, whether or not Quinn will be our starting PG by the end of the year. He did look good against Davidson. It is always tempting to try and imagine what would be our best line-up if everyone was playing to their full imagined potential. When you see Cook's quickness, and you see him make a 3, and play good defense, hit his foul shots and manage the game like a traditional PG, it leads you to think that he's the PG with the most upside. The same holds true for Andre and his shooting ability at 6'4". Would that "Dream 5" be Cook, Rivers, Dawkins, MP1 and Kelly?

The problem with the above is what actually happens game in and game out. In a presser during the summer, around the overseas trip, a reporter posed a question that K chose to interpret as suggesting someone should be playing based on potential and he answered something like, "I only know what I see", with the implication being that production earns minutes. Seth hasn't been perfect, but I feel like he's been our most consistent player this year. I thought the biggest sequence in the Davidson game was with 5 minutes left in the game and Duke up 13. Davidson had knocked a 20 point lead down to 13 in little more than a minute. The next few possessions featured Curry for 3, Curry steal, Davidson Dunk, Curry for another 3. I feel like Curry is always the guy stepping up to hit big shots when we need them, and I agree with the "if it aint broke don't fix it crowd", at least for now.

I think the Cook/Dawkins/Thornton battle for PT is a good one to keep watching, game by game a different one of them seems to step up, or retreat. Dawkins had a few nice clean looks at 3 and didn't knock them down. I thought the team got him the ball in good spots. I liked that Rivers was looking to pass more. He was lethal going to the rim, but he needs to avoid the "attempt to split the D up top, fail, and the opposition heads down for an easy uncontested 2". That one always hurts.

It would be nice if a similar Hairston/Gbinije/Murphy battle for PT was taking place daily in practice...perhaps it is but Hairston is winning (acknowledging Murphy has been hampered with a bruised brain).

I liked seeing us get 12 fast break points.

Count me among those screaming for Mason to touch the ball early and often. Let the big dog eat, fellas!

Finally, you know something is off when you are happy to see Miles step to the foul line. Can Hack-A-Mason be far off?

[OldPhiKap]

Count me among those screaming for Mason to touch the ball early and often. Let the big dog eat, fellas!



Big dog's gotta bark.

Establish position, DEMAND the ball.


And hit your free throws when the contact comes.

[Kedsy]

Big dog's gotta bark.

Establish position, DEMAND the ball.

So far, I think Mason has done a pretty good job this season demanding the ball.


And hit your free throws when the contact comes.

This is the key for Mason. If he'd only hit two-thirds of his free throws (which for most people isn't all that good), he'd be our second leading scorer right now.

[ncexnyc]

I'm not advocating wholesale changes, but the, "If it aint broke, don't fix it" mentality isn't a very pruedent course and certainly not one which the team should take. I've said it all along that the starting line-up still isn't set in stone, not that it ever is, but it can get pretty much get that way to a certain extent. I'm open to exploring the various options that we have.

I'm not quite as sold on Dre as many people on this board seem to be. He's averaging just over 10 points a game, which is extemely misleading as that includes his 26 point outburst against MSU. The other 3 games are 6, 4, and 5. I'm open to seeing how a line-up with Quinn at the PG, Seth as the SG, and Austin as the wing/SF fair. I realize there are issues with that line-up, but I'm willing to at least explore the possibilities, rather than just give a blanket no to it's consideration.

[Azdukefan]

I'm not advocating wholesale changes, but the, "If it aint broke, don't fix it" mentality isn't a very pruedent course and certainly not one which the team should take. I've said it all along that the starting line-up still isn't set in stone, not that it ever is, but it can get pretty much get that way to a certain extent. I'm open to exploring the various options that we have.

I'm not quite as sold on Dre as many people on this board seem to be. He's averaging just over 10 points a game, which is extemely misleading as that includes his 26 point outburst against MSU. The other 3 games are 6, 4, and 5. I'm open to seeing how a line-up with Quinn at the PG, Seth as the SG, and Austin as the wing/SF fair. I realize there are issues with that line-up, but I'm willing to at least explore the possibilities, rather than just give a blanket no to it's consideration.

I couldn't agree more about being open to lineup changes. In fact, short of Curry and MP2, I think any of our players could start (excluding Hairston) that play extensive minutes. My take is that Rivers to the bench should even be explored. Just a thought.

[Billy Dat]

I'm not advocating wholesale changes, but the, "If it aint broke, don't fix it" mentality isn't a very pruedent course and certainly not one which the team should take. I've said it all along that the starting line-up still isn't set in stone, not that it ever is, but it can get pretty much get that way to a certain extent. I'm open to exploring the various options that we have.

I'm not quite as sold on Dre as many people on this board seem to be. He's averaging just over 10 points a game, which is extemely misleading as that includes his 26 point outburst against MSU. The other 3 games are 6, 4, and 5. I'm open to seeing how a line-up with Quinn at the PG, Seth as the SG, and Austin as the wing/SF fair. I realize there are issues with that line-up, but I'm willing to at least explore the possibilities, rather than just give a blanket no to it's consideration.


I couldn't agree more about being open to lineup changes. In fact, short of Curry and MP2, I think any of our players could start (excluding Hairston) that play extensive minutes. My take is that Rivers to the bench should even be explored. Just a thought.

I think running a team as an absolute meritocracy is a lofty goal, and one that K does as well as anyone. The problem for fans is that there might be a difference, perhaps a wide one, between who you think is the best and who he thinks is the best. My agreement with the "if it aint broke don't fix it" reasoning is that we are undefeated and Curry has been playing well. Quinn Cook is coming on, and hopefully he will continue to come on. There is even some statistical back-up. If you know ESPN John Hollinger's PER rankings, which attempt to boil down a slew of offensive stats into one apples to apples comparison stat to rate player value, Cook is one of only four players in the ACC playing 15 minutes or less a game whose PER ranks in the top 30 in the conference. It's one thing for him to start grabbing minutes from an inconsistent Andre - which, based on the current sample size of games isn't yet justified, but it's another to play him over Andre and hand him the ball moving Seth off the ball, after 4 games, and a full preseason of "Seth is my point guard" press conferences from K. Aside from, as of today, being an unwarranted merit move, it might screw up the chemistry that the team is building and the confidence of its most consistent player. There's a lot at stake with such a move.

[CDu]

In this case, whether or not Quinn will be our starting PG by the end of the year. He did look good against Davidson. It is always tempting to try and imagine what would be our best line-up if everyone was playing to their full imagined potential. When you see Cook's quickness, and you see him make a 3, and play good defense, hit his foul shots and manage the game like a traditional PG, it leads you to think that he's the PG with the most upside.

Cook definitely played very well in the Davidson game. However, he has not, in any regular season game, played like a traditional PG. He's done his scoring off the ball or in transition off a steal, and he hasn't really created for others very often. That's not to say he doesn't have this skill set. Just that what he's done well so far doesn't do anything to address the "problems" we have at PG.


The problem with the above is what actually happens game in and game out. In a presser during the summer, around the overseas trip, a reporter posed a question that K chose to interpret as suggesting someone should be playing based on potential and he answered something like, "I only know what I see", with the implication being that production earns minutes. Seth hasn't been perfect, but I feel like he's been our most consistent player this year. I thought the biggest sequence in the Davidson game was with 5 minutes left in the game and Duke up 13. Davidson had knocked a 20 point lead down to 13 in little more than a minute. The next few possessions featured Curry for 3, Curry steal, Davidson Dunk, Curry for another 3. I feel like Curry is always the guy stepping up to hit big shots when we need them, and I agree with the "if it aint broke don't fix it crowd", at least for now.

With the exception of a sloppy end of game in the MSU game, I haven't seen anything to suggest Curry shouldn't have the ball in his hands running the offense. I do hope that Cook continues to progress and provides us another solid option as the quality of opposition increases.