903!! MBB: Duke 74, Michigan State 69 Post Game Thread

[CDu]

Didn't see a thread. Discuss.

[Newton_14]

Congrats to Coach K, the new ALL TIME leader in wins in NCAA History! Well done!

Discuss here. The end was not pretty but I can cut the kids some slack facing the pressure of the moment. They wanted it badly for their Coach.

[blueduke59]

Last 7 minutes was very sloppy and that's being kind. I hope these guys learn how to go for the jugular. Hope they also get serious about getting the ball in to the post. Tonight it seemed to be an afterthought. 7 shots total for the bigs. 7. Their interior defense has improved quite a bit though. Kelly should start. I think he sparked the team in the second half after Dawkins carried them in the first

[moonpie23]

it's gonna be a great season !!! :)

[Newton_14]

Didn't see a thread. Discuss.

Sorry CDu, we were typing at the same time. I merged my thread into yours. I am going to tweak your title to add 903 if you don' mind.

[Bob Green]

it's gonna be a great season !!! :)

Hey, moonpie23, nice flip-flop - next thing you know you will be running for political office. :cool:

[moonpie23]

Hey, moonpie23, nice flip-flop - next thing you know you will be running for political office. :cool:

that's not public knowledge yet, bob....please don't tell anyone...
:cool:

[DukieInBrasil]

we won! despite ineffective offense from the MPs and a totally ineffective game from Rivers. Cuz Dawkins was AWESOME, Curry was too (plus 5 steals) and Ryan Kelly didn't miss a shot (shades of last year?).
Congrats to Coach K for the all-time victories title!

[NSDukeFan]

it's gonna be a great season !!! :)

That's more like it.

Congrats to coach K on a great achievement. Congrats to this team for winning their second big ball game of this young season.

[BleedsP287]

Interesting Austin didn't play much, though he did have a bit of foul trouble, and wasn't playing very well, whereas all of the other guys really were.

Seth has really improved, I see he has stolen one of Austin's classic stutter step drive-by moves, and he does it under control, which is one thing Austin is having some trouble with. But he'll get it.

Happy day, grats to coach and the team(s), and to Duke, and the sixth men from the last 30 years (that's us).

[UrinalCake]

Great games by Dawkins and Curry. Ball-handing at end of games needs work, as we saw in the Belmont game too. Interior defense was outstanding. Nice job by the players staying focused with all the hoopla surrounding win 903.

[DukieInBrasil]

it sounds like Nolan needs to school Austin and Seth on the tear drop floater.
Yes, yes he does.

[CLW]

Hopefully, this issue of blowing huge leads late in the 2nd half can be cured.

Andre was HUGE in the 1st half and I thought Kelly really played well and IMHO should be getting serious consideration for cracking the starting lineup and moving one Plumlee to the bench.

[TampaDukie]

Couldn't be prouder of our university, our program, or our coach. What a great night!

[FerryFor50]

Great game, but what bugged me was that Dawkins was on fire and they stopped getting him shots in the 2nd half. Not coincidentally, that's when MSU started to claw their way back into the game. Lots of poor decisions and forced shots, just like in the Belmont game. Will come back to haunt them if they don't fix it soon.

[J4Kop99]

Curry
Rivers
Dawk
Kelly
Mason

Should be our starting line-up from now on. Miles is still having some serious trouble on both ends.

[J4Kop99]

Also, if anyone was ever wondering where coach's love for "stall-ball" came from... look no further than the man Coach just passed on the all-time wins list.

[Bob Green]

Andre was HUGE in the 1st half...

Dawkins scored 12 points in the 2nd half so I have to modify your statement and say, "Andre was HUGE throughout the game!"

[CDu]

Congrats to Coach K and the team for reaching the milestone. Hopefully there'll be 30+ more this year.

As for the game itself, thank goodness we hit our 3s, and thank goodness MSU couldn't finish around the basket. During the first 25 minutes, MSU repeatedly got the ball in REALLY good position and didn't finish. Meanwhile, our offense looked terrible during that stretch. Thankfully, Dawkins refused to miss. We could easily have been down 10-15 at the half, but went in with a lead. This continued early in the second half, when MSU kept getting it to their bigs within spitting distance of the rim and they kept missing. From 41-40 early in the second half, they missed about 4-5 easy layups and we hit a few threes.

The good:
- Andre Dawkins was on tonight. He hit threes. He made some driving shots. He looked really good. I hope we see this more.
- Team toughness. MSU brought the physical play. But we matched them. They didn't kill us on the glass on either end. Limiting second chance opportunities was a big key.
- Kelly's shooting. He didn't miss all night. I'll take that.
- Curry's shooting. He hit 10 free throws and 2 big 3s.
- Forcing turnovers. We forced 20 turnovers. That's good.
- Defense on Green. The Plumlees and Kelly took turns on Green (mostly the Plumlees), and they held him to a terrible field goal percentage and a bunch of turnovers. They got backside help from Curry and Thornton as well. Something about cutting off the head of the snake...

The not-so-good:
- We still allowed too many easy layup chances. MSU backed our bigs down and got point-blank opportunities... and missed repeatedly.
- Offensive flow. The ridiculous 3pt shooting will mask that we looked really choppy on offense for the first 30ish minutes. We started to get some flow later in the game as we pushed the lead out to 18 or so. But for large stretches we looked plodding and methodical. Again, thank goodness Dawkins hit those early 3s to keep us afloat.
- Composure plays. Mason gave a chippy little forearm that cost us a possession and two free throws. Miles got a technical. We can't do that.
- Tough night for Rivers. He got into the lane, but didn't react well to MSU's help defense. It resulted in what hopefully will be his worst game at Duke.
- Late-game decision making. Curry made some very bad decisions toward the end. Mason took a 5-second call with a timeout in hand. We gave them a few too many extra chances to chip away, and they were capitalizing.

I'm glad the shooting was on tonight. If we're 6-20 instead of 10-20, we probably lose. Thankfully, we hit those shots. We survived our first major conference test. MSU is physical, athletic, and well-coached, and we handled it. Hopefully we can build on the positives and learn from the mistakes.

Again, 903!

[CDu]

Sorry CDu, we were typing at the same time. I merged my thread into yours. I am going to tweak your title to add 903 if you don' mind.

Not a problem at all. Your title is far superior to mine!

[FerryFor50]

One good takeaway is that Duke hung with MSU on the glass after MSU owned the glass against UNC. Hopefully that carries over!

[Bob Green]

The good:
- Andre Dawkins was on tonight. He hit threes. He made some driving shots. He looked really good. I hope we see this more.


Great analysis, but you didn't specifically point out the most important aspect of Dawkins' performance - his defensive presence. Dawkins scored his first two points by stepping into the passing lane, stealing a pass and breaking away for a snowbird lay-up. He continued to play solid defense for the entire game!

[TonyWR]

Yes, yes he does.

First off, congrats to the best coach, ever, in any sport.

Secondly, if this game had gone another 2 minutes I feel strongly we would have witnessed a Duke meltdown. You don't go up almost 20 then end the game in that fashion.

This team is young yes and the season is early but if Miles, Mason and Rivers don't correct what we saw from them tonight then it's gonna be a very frustrating season. This team can't compete with the extremely talented and physical teams like Kansas and Kentucky. Next week against OSU will be another nail biter for sure, I don't feel good about what may happen. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I was not impressed with tonights game. Everyone should thank Dawkins and Curry for carrying this game on their backs..............

[OldPhiKap]

positives:

1. Dre is the chronic. Killer.
2. Austin can get to the lane, needs to learn the pull-up and the kick-out.
3. Great to see us step up to the brawl that is MSU basketball (I mean that in a good way -- we could have backed down but stood up and out-banged them).
4. Ryan is a great mis-match we can exploit in many games.
5. Thorton, only going higher in my book. Solid.
6. Several great interior passes by Mason in the second half.

things to work on:

1. we got lost on a lot of picks in the first half -- did better in the second.
2. didn't move the ball throught he Plumli as well as the first two games; need to get that inside-outside going.

[Bluedevil114]

Congrats to Coach K!! It has truly been an honor to be a Duke fan for the past 32 years!! Go Duke!! A tough game that will help us develop down the road. Go Duke!!

[loldevilz]

Congrats to Coach K!

I know he won't stop at 903. I fully expect him to hit 1000! It will be a mark that will never be matched by another Div1 Men's basketball coach!

As for the game
Positives-
1) Andre Dawkins was unreal. Its amazing what he can do when he is "on".
2) Great rebounding by the bigs. Impressed that we showed the toughness to hang with them on the boards.
3) Really responded well to half time talk

Negatives-
1) The Plumlees were almost totally absent on the offensive end
2) Really did not manage the game well, very similar to the Belmont debacle
3) Rivers struggled scoring the ball

[Oriole Way]

First off, congrats to the best coach, ever, in any sport.

Secondly, if this game had gone another 2 minutes I feel strongly we would have witnessed a Duke meltdown. You don't go up almost 20 then end the game in that fashion.

This team is young yes and the season is early but if Miles, Mason and Rivers don't correct what we saw from them tonight then it's gonna be a very frustrating season. This team can't compete with the extremely talented and physical teams like Kansas and Kentucky. Next week against OSU will be another nail biter for sure, I don't feel good about what may happen. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I was not impressed with tonights game. Everyone should thank Dawkins and Curry for carrying this game on their backs..............

There were some alarming negatives to the game (Rivers having an awful game, Miles ditto, not being able to put the game away after being up 20, lackluster post play), but I think it's huge that Andre Dawkins, who's essentially been a 5th option - at best - in the first two games of the season emerge as someone who carried us in a big game.

It's really disappointing to see Miles take such a step back and not build on any of his success from practices and the China/Dubai trip. Him having a Zoubek-esque senior season would go a long way to making this a Final Four-caliber team. Now, he should go to the bench until he starts playing like a senior. I was advocating benching Mason in favor of Kelly to start the season, but now I think Kelly and Mason should be our starting frontcourt for the next few games.

Regardless, there's plenty of talent and plenty of work to do. Congrats to Coach K on such an incredible accomplishment.

[Billy Dat]

Big night for K and the program - let's hope he keeps pushing to 1000+.

The first half was a mess, aside from Dre's sublime shooting. A lot of those shots were pretty heavily contested, too. He was just feeling it. Although he couldn't help but be quieter in the second half, he was still a meaningful presence making a bunch of shots, playing tough on D, agitating the other team a little...his best all around game in a long time. Ok, Dre, you've given your admirers more hope that you will be this kind of player game in and game out. Please justify their hopes and dreams.

I, too, though Kelly was our next best player. He was solid on both ends, scoring, rebounding, contesting shots, spacing the floor, handling the ball, etc. He was the frontline star.

Curry was solid. As others have said, he needs to work on finishing games, but he did a lot of scoring and was a real pest on defense.

We didn't get Mason the ball enough early, and the early foul plus the technical had him out of sorts - I also thought that I saw a fair sized shiner near his eye, so maybe he was mad because he was getting hit. To that I say...Man up, dog! Still, he kept battling and, ultimately, had a good game although how many people screamed at him through their TV when he picked up that ridiculous 3rd foul?

Agree about Rivers, but a lot of his moves were on point and he wasn't getting any love from the refs. He's going to have freshman games, but I don't think we'll see too many when he gets within 3 feet of the hoop and comes up empty as many times as he did tonight.

Thornton gave us some decent minutes, Miles was a little dissapointing (esp the technical). Hairston actually gave us some good minutes in the first half, as did Cook.

MSU missed a TON of easy baskets...like, layups, over and over. The also fumbled a lot of passes right under the basket. They played well the first 10 but their turnovers let us stay in the game, and then we got hot to start the second and they got very cold. But, we also toughened up and started scrapping and hustling more...I love the way we contested those under the basket opportunities.

Solid win, we are a work in progress but we are evolving. No one is emerging as a game-in, game-out person you can count on, but Curry is probably the closest so far with Mason and Kelly next then Rivers and Dawkins. Naturally, Mr. 903 is always ready game-in, game out. Way to go, Coach!

[jipops]

Mich St scored 13 points in the final 1:21 of the game. The lack of poise at the end is a concern. I expected us to be outplayed in the post, but the lack of post play was still surprising. Bad showing by the frontcourt offensively on this stage. We simply have to get more out of Miles to be successful this season. The mistakes he made out there were more freshmen-like than senior.

But a tough win. Andre found his spots and stayed focused all throughout. The defense for the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half was superb. Seth seems to be finding more and more comfort in his role, just still needs more time. 903!!

[Newton_14]

First off, congrats to the best coach, ever, in any sport.

Secondly, if this game had gone another 2 minutes I feel strongly we would have witnessed a Duke meltdown. You don't go up almost 20 then end the game in that fashion.

This team is young yes and the season is early but if Miles, Mason and Rivers don't correct what we saw from them tonight then it's gonna be a very frustrating season. This team can't compete with the extremely talented and physical teams like Kansas and Kentucky. Next week against OSU will be another nail biter for sure, I don't feel good about what may happen. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I was not impressed with tonights game. Everyone should thank Dawkins and Curry for carrying this game on their backs..............

A few things to consider here. First, except for the dumb dead ball foul, Mason played a heck of a game. This despite only getting 3 shot attempts. He defended really well, had amazing passes and was all over the place making things happen. People will point to MSU missing "easy shots", but much of that was due to the pressure the 3 bigs were putting on the MSU bigs. Our bigs challenged shots, especially Mason and Kelly, and either blocked, altered, or caused MSU to rush numerous shotsl Give some credit to the defense.

2nd, Miles is high strung and this was a night of high emotion. He simply wanted it too badly and rushed all night long. He will help this team this year. I am willing to give him and the other kids a break on mental mistakes due to the pressure they were under from 903. The media treated this like a NCAA Title game.

Finally, Austin is a freshman who pressed too much on the big stage (and again the high emotion of 903) and got frustrated.

As we move forward Austin will get much better. I am not worried about him at all.

The guys played great out there tonight for much of the game. The team defense and interior defense was really good most of the game. The poor finish was fatigue, and excitement, both of which led to mental errors and poor execution.

Now that the record is behind us, the guys can settle into a normal season.

All that said, tonight is not a night for criticism. It is a night for celebration. Under that pressure, this inexperienced team could have laid an egg. THey didn't.

[Saratoga2]

We got a win against a good well coached team, but all was not great.

What was great was Andre's shooting in both halfs. Many of his shots were against a bigger player. He went to the basket at least two times and hit his free throws. His defense and presence were also solid.

Seth shot well and was definitely trusted by coach K but his end of game management was rocky to say the least. Making a long pass early in the clock when we really needed to take time off. Ball handling issues and passing into trouble. What he needs is to think what he is doing out there.

Our bigs played hard for the entire game but Miles jst suffers from not being able to deal with pressure. Coach K cut his playing time down.

Mason had happy feet in the first half and was petulant enough to give a couple of silly fouls. Fortunately for us, his second half was a big improvement, with solid passing, shot altering presence and the like. Why we passed to him at the end of game situation seems like poor management by our guards who know his foul shooting isn't good.

Unlike others, I thought Kelly's first half smacked of trying too hard defensively and getting beat doing it. His second half was altogether different when he played much smarter and hit all his shots. I would move him into a starter position with Mason going forward.

Austin had a poor game for him, fouling when he shouldn't have and being a little too aggressive going to the basket. That said, it is nice to see a guy who can beat an opponent off the drive. If he drives and dishes more and also uses his outside shot, he can be a very big positive factor. Yes, he is a freshman, but he has what it takes to be a star player. Expect more from his as the season moves on.

Tyler was a big factor in the game as well. I thought his defense was outstanding when we made the run and his ball handling is a benefit, taking some of the pressure off of Seth. Until Tyler took the dirty knee to his head, he was playing great. That should have been called as a two shot foul and possession for Duke.

Hairston was in briefly and looks very strong but didn't stay in for long. He doesn't have Miles size but his is still better with the ball. We also had Quinn in for a while and he didn't impress with his defense so coach K didn't go that way again. We didn't see Michael or Alex as the game got close at the end.

It was a good learning experience and the lessons for our bigs is to play smarter in the first half, the lessons for our guards is to better manage the end of game situation.

[NovaScotian]

can anybody tell me which former players/other important people were at the game besides rmk?

[hudlow]

When I first heard about this guy coming to coach Duke...I thought I'd wait a while before I even put too much effort into learning how to pronounce his name correctly...he wouldn't last over a season...maybe two.

Thanks Coach K.

Crow never tasted any better.

hud

[1 24 90]

can anybody tell me which former players/other important people were at the game besides rmk?

They talked to Shane and Grant Hill. They also showed Duhon, Boozer & Dunleavy and said that Jay Will and Bobby Hurley were there but never showed them.

[sagegrouse]

Congratulations to Coach K! Great coach and class act.

I thought our defense was amazing in teh second half. All of a sudden, the Spartans couldn't score and we were getting all the loose balls.

All day, Andre, all day! An amazing breakout performance at just the right time.

Seth was money the entire game. I thought Mason had a good second half and was surprised to see he didn't score more.

sagegrouse

[Utley]

Most importantly - anyone know where the afterprty is?

[dukelifer]

First, congrats to K. If it couldn't be in Cameron- winning 903 in the Garden- a basketball mecca- is probably the next best thing.

There was much to like in the game and much to keep an eye on going forward. Having Dre take on the role of JJ Redick was nice to see. He is such a good shooter- he simply needs to play with some swagger. He did this tonight because he got hot early. Unfortunately, he can so easily get down on himself and disappear - but when he is on- he can be explosive. Kelly is playing with some swagger these days. He has much more confidence and is such a good free throw shooter. Duke needs to use him more. Curry is solid at the point and Thornton will play a lot- since he does all the dirty work. Mason struggled scoring the ball- but he is passing well. He and Ryan can make a good duo.

As for concerns, Rivers has so much to learn about playing college ball. He is playing much more physically talented players and he has yet to figure out how to get his shot over defenders. His misses in traffic are effectively turnovers and often lead to run outs. K clearly wants him to be a driver- but he would benefit by hitting some short jumpers and picking his spots better. I am sure he will make the adjustments- but he is really pressing. The other concern is how Duke is losing big leads. Part of this is due to the lack of drivers to effectively run the stall. When Rivers figures it out- this should help. Curry made a few forced passes that were ill-advised. Right now- no lead is safe with this team. The good news is that they are getting big leads.

Duke is a good team- but they will be an adventure until Rivers figures it out. The next few games will be huge tests for Duke. All we know is that they will be battle tested going into the ACC season.

[Billy Dat]

can anybody tell me which former players/other important people were at the game besides rmk?

The Duke Blue Planet Twitter feed posted a pic
http://twitpic.com/7eqxuj

I spot the following guys, some faces look familiar but I can't place them (is that T.Hill talking to Brand?):
Dunleavy, Battier, Duhon, Hurley, Abdelnaby, Brand, Boozer, Hill, Kyrie

[DuKe4LiFe#30]

Andre was on fire beyond the arc. And also drove the ball in for layups and played decent defense. Picked a great time to hAVE his best game a blue devil!

Congrats to coach k and his family

[fogey]

I thought Quinn's defense was energetic and that he worked very hard; he actually stays in front of his man as well or better than anyone. Tyler gets beat all the time, but has great IQ and help defense, nose for steals. When Quinn gets that, he will be outstanding. The bonus: his offensive tools- quickness, passing skills, and (as we saw last game) a nice shooting touch.

[SCMatt33]

First, Congrats Coach K!

As for the game, I don't think that the game tape from this games will be preserved by the Library of Congress any time soon. As for the final score, you can break it down that Duke was sloppy and made a lot of mistakes, but Michigan State was sloppier and made a lot more mistakes. With the way the game went, I really don't have many other game specific thoughts, but I do have a lot of big picture things.

It's hard to comment on certain things exactly since the official box score has yet to be released, but it looks like we played around even with them on the boards give or take a few. This team destroyed UNC on the boards. This actually says less to me about our pure rebounding ability than it does about this teams' ability to follow a game plan. The Plumlees were hardly dominant against them on the boards, but did a good job of keeping rebounds alive and the guards did a great job of crashing in to scoop up loose balls. Clearly, team rebounding was a focus in the prep for this game, just like the press was a focus of prep for Belmont. Both times, Duke did a great job of implementing that into the game. This teams is willing to learn, and willing to do what it takes, but bringing it all together will take time. The question is how long? It could be by January, or the season could end before it happens, but the process is on its way.

Also, a lot of people mentioned that this team is "inexperienced." That's only partially true. Of the seven guys who got major minutes tonight, 5 have been on the roster for two years together already. Throw in Tyler, who fit in pretty seamlessly last year, and you have 6 guys who already have great chemistry. All six also saw significant minutes last year, including Tyler, who did an admirable job eating some minutes with Kyrie hurt. I also wonder a bit if those six are still getting used to Austin and Austin getting used to everyone else. Last year, Kyrie came in college ready from a basketball factory school. Austin comes from a high school team on which he was the only real talent. When he's on, it doesn't matter, but when he's not, he has a hard time getting others involved and they have a hard time getting him involved. I don't think its a coincidence that it was after he went out with his third foul that Duke took it from a 1 point game to a 17 or 18 point game by the time he came back. Having Austin fit in with everyone will take some time, and again, it could be a month, or it might not happen completely by the end of the year, we don't know.

The rotation is also interesting. After 2 legit games, it's pretty clear that Coach K is going with a 7 2/2 man rotation, the two halves being Cook and Hairston picking up spot minutes in the first half to give guys an extra bit of rest. The question is whether one of Cook, Hairston, Murphy, or Gbinije can show enough in practice to get significant minutes. I have a feeling that someone might do it for ACC season, but when push comes to shove at tourney time, the 7 guys who see big minutes now are going to be the ones on the floor.

The perimeter D has been a point of concern for awhile now, and this was really the only place that Michigan State was exploiting Duke's D. Time and again, they broke down defenders in one-on-one match ups. Michigan state had a lot of turnovers in this game, but unlike Belmont, a lot of them were self inflicted. I just didn't see Duke getting enough steals, easy boards, and fast break points to justify allowing Michigan State to get to rim at will. Incidentally, we were also lucky that they missed a ton of layups. None of us have been in practice, but Coach K must see something to make him think that this will get better or I'd imagine that we'd see guys start to back off a little. It's important to remember with the perimeter D that the first step is everything. It's not always about speed or athleticism, but reaction time. You have to recognize and be in lock step with the ball handler on the first step or it's over.

The last thing is the Plumlee offense. They had some first moves in the first two games that didn't work tonight. Most big guys on good teams won't be beat on the slow developing two or three dribble moves that they used against Belmont and PC. We saw that moves that worked best were the ones where Mason was able to beat his defender in one dribble. He got that on that hook shot and there were a few time that he had them beat on one dribble but got fouled before he could get a shot off. That's not to say that he should never take more than one dribble on a post move, but when it takes more than one dribble to at least get face up, it's probably a good idea to pass back out.

Finally, Duke has really bailed itself out with hot three point shooting, at almost 50% for the year. This is clearly not sustainable. We've already seen the team go brick city from three in that first exhibition game. Three point shooting is never something that can be consistent from game to game, and shooting half of your field goals from the outside is not a good formula for later on. They played a team with tough big guys, but with Austin spending significant amounts of time off the floor, Dawkins and Curry were the primary options and they have to mix in other stuff with their jump shot. They don't have break-you-down moves, but they have to find ways to probe the D, and be crafty to get floaters and layups for themselves or a big.

The end game was also interesting. Everyone on the floor seemed a little lethargic (both teams), and it looked like Izzo had actually given up before they had the four point play with the foul on the three pointer and offensive board. I'm not too worried about it yet given some of the weird stuff that happened, like Tyler slipping on the stupid sticker. If it keeps happening, I'll get more concerned.

With that huge post, the box score was finally posted. Duke only lost the rebounding battle 32-31, but they were actually further behind than it looked because Michigan State missed a lot more shots. That means if rebounding percentage were equal, Duke would have several more boards in the game. Still, we didn't get killed, and most of the problem was getting offensive rebounds for ourselves. The team did a great job and held them to just 25% offensive rebounding, which is pretty darn good against Michigan State. BTW, shout out to Seth for having 7 boards.

I was also satisfied with the free throw shooting at 73%. That number is usually just good, but when Mason has a quarter of the shots, that's really good. Speaking of Mason's shooting, he really seems to have his shots on line, but is just really inconsistent with the distance. If you're going to be accurate on only one axis, that's the better one. It gives the ball a chance to bounce in, and it's more conducive to rebounding as the ball will go back towards the shooter into the pile, as opposed to the side where the defenders have position.

There's probably more, but all in all, this team is really sloppy and needs to improve big time, but there are positives there. Once again, congrats Coach K!!

[devildeac]

Haven't seen this one yet:

2128

From NCDOT.

[BobbyFan]

The Duke Blue Planet Twitter feed posted a pic
http://twitpic.com/7eqxuj

I spot the following guys, some faces look familiar but I can't place them (is that T.Hill talking to Brand?):
Dunleavy, Battier, Duhon, Hurley, Abdelnaby, Brand, Boozer, Hill, Kyrie

Any chance that is Matt Christensen in the back wearing the red/orange?

And Dunleavy looks like he came from 1999.

[Jackson]

Any chance that is Matt Christensen in the back wearing the red/orange?

And Dunleavy looks like he came from 1999.

Kenny Dennard is in that pic too.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I thought Mason played better than some are giving him credit for. Yes, he only took 3 shots, but his 10 free throws were largely a result of assertive offensive moves. 5-10 free throws actually is progress, so hopefully that will continue to trend upwards. I also thought there should have been a goal tend called on one of his hooks, and he made another nice hook, unfortunately after a travel. He made himself a threat. He also made some great passes and defended against a lot of size, until the final minutes when we went to the matador defense. Ryan has become reliable and has added some variation to his game. Miles, on the other hand, had a really off game.

Austin at least showed that he can get by people, which the team needs. He also is starting to look to pass at times, but needs to be stronger with the ball and to finish the layups when he gets there. I think he'll really grow throughout the year.

Obviously, great to see a big game from Dawkins.

I saw Murphy shooting around pre-game. Is he still out with the concussion? I thought he showed enough promise in preseason that I would be surprised if he redshirts.

Thank you, Coach K!!!!!

[fc3]

Agree with earlier post that this is a night to celebrate, not criticize. Imagine the pressure with all the former players there, hype, etc. Coach K was going to get it eventually, but nice that he calmly stared it down and moved on on the first try.

Wish we could have Bilas and Knight announce all our games. Interesting that Vitale has been conspicuously absent so far this season, wonder if that is intentional.

Go Duke!

[J4Kop99]

Agree with earlier post that this is a night to celebrate, not criticize. Imagine the pressure with all the former players there, hype, etc. Coach K was going to get it eventually, but nice that he calmly stared it down and moved on on the first try.

Wish we could have Bilas and Knight announce all our games. Interesting that Vitale has been conspicuously absent so far this season, wonder if that is intentional.

Go Duke!

Turn on ESPN right now and listen closely.

[loldevilz]

I thought Mason played better than some are giving him credit for. Yes, he only took 3 shots, but his 10 free throws were largely a result of assertive offensive moves. 5-10 free throws actually is progress, so hopefully that will continue to trend upwards. I also thought there should have been a goal tend called on one of his hooks, and he made another nice hook, unfortunately after a travel. He made himself a threat. He also made some great passes and defended against a lot of size, until the final minutes when we went to the matador defense. Ryan has become reliable and has added some variation to his game. Miles, on the other hand, had a really off game.


I agree partially with what you are saying. I thought Mason really was able to get to the free throw line at will in the second half. The problem is that he still can't hit free throws at all. At times it feels like he is so close to getting it, but he just can't seem to put it all together.

Also, Ryan really needs to start. I don't understand why he is the first off the bench when he has shown that he is much more valuable than either of the Plums.

Lastly, this might seem out of left field but I feel that Hairston should maybe be moved ahead of Miles in the rotation. Hairston did a great job on Green and he doesn't turn the ball over. I think he is ready for more minutes.

[brumby041]

What is the impetus for "going to the monitor"?

They went for Mason's (stupid) elbow and Nix's box out, neither of which I thought warranted a call. Yet they let the (obvious to me) knee to Thornton's head go??? That looked like it had to potential to really hurt Tyler.

Would love an explanation.

-Brumby

[-bdbd]

Curry
Rivers
Dawk
Kelly
Mason

Should be our starting line-up from now on. Miles is still having some serious trouble on both ends.

Agree. It was interesting to see who was on the floor at crunch time. Obviously Andre had a monster night. But I thought Mason, Kelly and Curry all stepped up in their own, often quiet, ways. Good also to see solid minutes and contrubtions by Cook, Thorton, and Hairston. Obviously a down night for Miles. And Austin will certainly see better nights while at Duke - he seems too often like he's not playing within himself or within the offense - trying too hard to make something happen by himself.

Since I so often rag on them, I should acknowledge that ESPN did a good job of spotlighting this milestone for K. The extended "talking heads" session set on center court after the game - Jay, Digger, Davis and the host - was well done and just "nice." Jay sure did seem giddy for K though - but witty as always (I'm almost always proud that he's one of us!).

And nice after-game moments and comments from K - explaining that the ball will go into the Duke BB Hall of Fame, "This ball is the sort of thing that doesn't belong to a coach...it belongs to a school and a program..." Ixzo, classy as always. Great to see the K-Knight embrace and private words. The presentation. K's hugs and kisses for Micky and his daughters, and especially with his brother. Very nicely done all around. Now, how long before the boorish 'heeeeelz fans start deriding it "barely hanging on for a win against a team that NC "blew out" just a few days earlier... ??? (Sigh.) :rolleyes:

[Bojangles4Eva]

Congrats on 903, and may there be many more!

In tonight’s game I saw a lot of talent and inexperience, and the latter will get better with time. While it is uncomfortable to see two large leads cut down in two intense games, the ability to create a lead when one was needed, and eventually win should not be looked over. I think Jay Bilas said towards the end of the game that Duke has their plan, they just need to practice it, while Michigan State needed to go back to the drawing board. I totally agree with this. All of our problems can be worked out which is why I am happy about this game. A W is a W...now prepare for Davidson.

[-bdbd]

Anybody know if there are any plans to recognize this achievement back in Cameron on Friday night in front of the Duke faithful??

[dukebsbll14]

Anybody know if there are any plans to recognize this achievement back in Cameron on Friday night in front of the Duke faithful??

According to the facebook event started by the Head LM's, there will be a ceremony after the game.

[Troublemaker]

Dawk won the game for Duke in the first half. I mean, you kinda knew Michigan St. was in trouble when at halftime they had thoroughly outplayed Duke to that point and was still trailing by 1. That was all due to Dawk's one-man show in the first half. In the second half, the rest of the team calmed down, started playing to our capabilities and was able to cruise to a big lead before hanging on at the end there.

I can't say enough about Dawk. I believe he's a clutch shooter and that's a nice weapon to have in Duke's arsenal. I'll forever be grateful for the two three's he hit against Baylor his freshman year that helped send Duke to the Final Four. He of course sealed the game against Belmont in the season opener this year, and now this. With countless former Duke greats looking on and with all the media attention about 903 and all the self-imposed pressure to win it for Coach K, the entire team played jittery in the first half except for one man who shot lights out and allowed the team to weather the storm. Gotta love that kid. Hopefully this game will springboard him into becoming a consistent starter for the rest of the season.

[Troublemaker]

I thought Mason played better than some are giving him credit for. Yes, he only took 3 shots, but his 10 free throws were largely a result of assertive offensive moves. 5-10 free throws actually is progress, so hopefully that will continue to trend upwards. I also thought there should have been a goal tend called on one of his hooks, and he made another nice hook, unfortunately after a travel. He made himself a threat. He also made some great passes and defended against a lot of size, until the final minutes when we went to the matador defense. Ryan has become reliable and has added some variation to his game. Miles, on the other hand, had a really off game.

Thank you, Coach K!!!!!

Agreed. Mason had a good game. I give him a ton of credit for helping Michigan St miss close-in shots with his shotblocking presence and length. Sure, MSU's post players aren't the most polished, but I firmly believe the intimidation factor played a part as well.

He's become a guy that we can rely on in the post. He has scoring moves, improved touch, and just as importantly, good court vision and passing ability to find cutters and open shooters. You can now throw the ball into him in the post and be pretty confident that something positive will happen. That's a great weapon to have in the arsenal.

Also agree that Miles struggled mightily. He's still not able to translate his practice dominance to real live game play. Yet. Hopefully it'll come at some point this season because we'll definitely need him to round out a very good 3-man post rotation. He's the missing piece right now with Ryan and Mason being so solid. If he can play with more confidence and have poise when he receives the ball, then he'll start to see the kickout opportunities and reduce the strips and fumbling of passes that he has suffered through.

Overall I like where we're at. We're a good team right now who has a lot of upside contained in Rivers and Miles finding their games at some point this season. We have time.

[superdave]

This was a game of runs - not necessarily scoring runs, but runs of momentum and lucky bounces. MSU outplayed Duke for most of the first half. We were flat and a step slow, then our D woke up about 5 minutes in. But the first half was theirs and we still managed to go into the locker room with the lead thanks to Dawkins barrage. I'll take it. We held them without a FG for about 7 minutes in the second half if I recall. Our offense was patient, our D was physical and quick. There's a reason MSU missed a lot of point blank shots - we contested them well. The MSU cut the lead from 20 to 5 before running out of time.

Defense - The Duke front line played the MSU front line pretty well on the defensive end. That's a good sign. But our bigs are not rotating to help out when a perimeter player gets beat. This has to improve or we'll be watching teams spread and drive on us all year. Our bigs had their backs to the ball and their heads down, and there was not enough communication. This could be tough vs. Ohio State.

Offensive Spacing, Chemistry - On offense our spacing is pretty sucky. Guys dont know quite where the ball handler wants the screen, or the timing of the ball screen. This is an issue of chemistry and reps in my opinion. I bet by January we'll see a big difference on offensive flow, and less of guys crowding each other and misreading each other's intentions. Hopefully with the emphasis on feeding the post, we become consistent at reading those angles and making the right pass. We have the bigs to play some nice high-low, and those bigs can find shooters on the wings too.

Free Throws - We got to the line pretty well tonight. Seth, Austin and Mason all attacked enough to draw fouls. This is a great way to start a game and begin to get into a rhythm. This can be a good way to both manufacture points while our chemistry gels and for end of game situations.

I've seen improvement over three games. I'll take it. Next step....guys settling into consistent roles and performances.

[gcashwell]

I have actually liked the way the Plumlees have played this season. Even tonight, Miles was tough. I keep thinking it will click for him at some point.

Ryan Kelly and Andre were incredible.

I have been very disappointed in Rivers' inability to finish close to the basket. I'm afraid defenses will figure him out pretty soon. It seems like he is able to get to the line a lot in the first half, then they adjust to him in the second. I understand he should improve as this is only his 3rd (really second) real game.

Tyler Thornton is essential to this team. I actually think he should play more minutes than Rivers.

I would like to see Dre, Curry, Thorton, either Plumlee, and Kelly get the most minutes at this point.

[Kedsy]

I expected us to be outplayed in the post, but the lack of post play was still surprising. Bad showing by the frontcourt offensively on this stage.

Our three big guys outscored their three big guys 22 to 14 (and Michigan State is a frontcourt-dominated team). So what's wrong with that?


Right now- no lead is safe with this team.

Well, since we've won every game, I'd say so far every lead is safe.


Lastly, this might seem out of left field but I feel that Hairston should maybe be moved ahead of Miles in the rotation. Hairston did a great job on Green and he doesn't turn the ball over. I think he is ready for more minutes.

Miles was really good on the China trip, in practice (from what we've heard) and in the first two games this season (especially his 13 and 11 against Presbyterian), but you think Josh should play more than Miles based on 5 minutes against Michigan State? We contained Green the entire game (not just the 5 minutes Josh played), and where do you get that Josh doesn't turn the ball over? His turnover per minute percentage this season (0.10) is about the same as Miles's (0.11).

Miles didn't play so well tonight, but it's one game. Andre didn't play so well the first two games, but he showed what he could do tonight. I think if we, as fans, can stop thinking that the most recent game defines everything we'll all be a lot happier.

Also, whoever was complaining about our bigs only taking 7 shots needs to factor in the fact that our bigs took 18 free throws.

I agree with whoever suggested Andre's defensive contributions were almost as important as his offense. We were all worried about how we'd deal with a big "3" like Dawson, but Dawson had 9 points and 3 rebounds. Andre also had 3 rebounds. I think we won that battle.

Finally, just looking at our two close games so far, anyone who thinks we'll be going more than 7 deep once January or February rolls around is deluding himself. Maybe 8 deep if Quinn or Alex can work their way into the rotation, but at this point that looks like a long shot.

[DukieTiger]

Finally, just looking at our two close games so far, anyone who thinks we'll be going more than 7 deep once January or February rolls around is deluding himself. Maybe 8 deep if Quinn or Alex can work their way into the rotation, but at this point that looks like a long shot.

While I agree to a certain extent that K isn't likely to play a very deep bench late in the season, I just don't think we can rule it out at this point. There are too many guys with potential and too much opportunity to earn time to say that the Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Mason-Tyler rotation is all there is, long-term, for this team. There is no telling how guys like Quinn and Alex, as you mentioned, are going to develop- to say nothing of Gbinije and Hairston. I don't know that we can summarize this Duke team as easily as past teams, simply because there is SO much room to grow and develop.

Just my 2 cents.

[g-money]

Dawk won the game for Duke in the first half. I mean, you kinda knew Michigan St. was in trouble when at halftime they had thoroughly outplayed Duke to that point and was still trailing by 1. That was all due to Dawk's one-man show in the first half. In the second half, the rest of the team calmed down, started playing to our capabilities and was able to cruise to a big lead before hanging on at the end there.

I can't say enough about Dawk. I believe he's a clutch shooter and that's a nice weapon to have in Duke's arsenal. I'll forever be grateful for the two three's he hit against Baylor his freshman year that helped send Duke to the Final Four. He of course sealed the game against Belmont in the season opener this year, and now this. With countless former Duke greats looking on and with all the media attention about 903 and all the self-imposed pressure to win it for Coach K, the entire team played jittery in the first half except for one man who shot lights out and allowed the team to weather the storm. Gotta love that kid. Hopefully this game will springboard him into becoming a consistent starter for the rest of the season.

Agreed, I thought Dawkins was hitting shots tonight that even JJ would have missed. It's clear Andre has put in the work to develop a picture-perfect jump shot. Now if he can just build some confidence around attacking the basket off the dribble (which is also a function of practice and hard work IMO), he can become a complete player and emerge as one of Duke's stars. I also loved his hustle on the defensive end and the fact that he was speaking up in the huddle before FTs.

Keep it up Andre!!!

[Kedsy]

While I agree to a certain extent that K isn't likely to play a very deep bench late in the season, I just don't think we can rule it out at this point. There are too many guys with potential and too much opportunity to earn time to say that the Seth-Austin-Dre-Ryan-Miles-Mason-Tyler rotation is all there is, long-term, for this team. There is no telling how guys like Quinn and Alex, as you mentioned, are going to develop- to say nothing of Gbinije and Hairston. I don't know that we can summarize this Duke team as easily as past teams, simply because there is SO much room to grow and develop.

Just my 2 cents.

The deepest Coach K Duke team ever (1997-98) still only went 7 deep in close games by the end of the year. And this was a team that had 10 guys average double-figure minutes over the course of the season, and in tough early games went 8 or 9 deep. Our current team is only going 7 deep in tough early games.

So you may be right, but history suggests otherwise.

[DukieTiger]

The deepest Coach K Duke team ever (1997-98) still only went 7 deep in close games by the end of the year. And this was a team that had 10 guys average double-figure minutes over the course of the season, and in tough early games went 8 or 9 deep. Our current team is only going 7 deep in tough early games.

So you may be right, but history suggests otherwise.

Well I think originally you said he would only go 7 deep in January/February in general, as opposed to close/tough games, but yeah it makes sense from a strategy standpoint to tend to only want your top 7 or 8 guys on the court in a tough game. But a number is just a number, and I happen to think that every team and every game is different. That's why I'm not so quick to say that K will only play X players significant minutes come ACC play- because I'm sure I can find plenty of ACC games/postseason games in various years where he played more than 7 guys. Additionally, one distinction I would make for this particular team is that Quinn, Josh, Mike and Murph all have various attributes about their games that aren't exactly bountiful in the current top-7. Ball handling and distributing for Quinn; Size and relative athleticism on the wings for Josh, Mike and Murph. That's what I meant when I said that the opportunity is potentially there.

*edited to add that both last year's team and the '10 national champs pretty consistently went 8 deep in late season games. Not saying that they did every game, but there are plenty of examples just from the brief glimpse I just took.

[bjornolf]

I thought that maybe certain players were playing a little TOO hard, and maybe a little tight, last night. It reminded me of some baseball players trying to reach milestones and making it much harder than it should have been. Great effort though, and glad it's over so the guys can go back to just playing ball.

I thought one reason we lost the lead was that they kept fouling Mason near the end... and he kept missing. Trading 1 for 2... or 3 is not a good way to win basketball games. I think the end was also a great example of the tightening up theory. I think the players wanted to do this SO bad for K in the Garden with all their predecessors present, and when they got it to 20 they relaxed a little too much, then freaked out a little when it got under 12. Their decision making seemed to fall apart a little at that point. Luckily, they gutted it out. I'm sure K said something about it in that timeout and it helped them finish.

The fact that vets like Dawkins and Kelly played so well, while guys like Rivers had trouble shows signs of this as well. They'll learn. They've got the best teacher they could have after all. :D

[DukieInBrasil]

Agreed. Mason had a good game. I give him a ton of credit for helping Michigan St miss close-in shots with his shotblocking presence and length. Sure, MSU's post players aren't the most polished, but I firmly believe the intimidation factor played a part as well.

He's become a guy that we can rely on in the post. He has scoring moves, improved touch, and just as importantly, good court vision and passing ability to find cutters and open shooters. You can now throw the ball into him in the post and be pretty confident that something positive will happen. That's a great weapon to have in the arsenal.

While Mason has improved in this regard, he gets the ball stolen from him by dribbling the ball too much on a far-too-frequent basis. Overall though, i'm impressed by his improvement so far this year.

[Saratoga2]

I thought that maybe certain players were playing a little TOO hard, and maybe a little tight, last night. It reminded me of some baseball players trying to reach milestones and making it much harder than it should have been. Great effort though, and glad it's over so the guys can go back to just playing ball.

I thought one reason we lost the lead was that they kept fouling Mason near the end... and he kept missing. Trading 1 for 2... or 3 is not a good way to win basketball games. I think the end was also a great example of the tightening up theory. I think the players wanted to do this SO bad for K in the Garden with all their predecessors present, and when they got it to 20 they relaxed a little too much, then freaked out a little when it got under 12. Their decision making seemed to fall apart a little at that point. Luckily, they gutted it out. I'm sure K said something about it in that timeout and it helped them finish.

The fact that vets like Dawkins and Kelly played so well, while guys like Rivers had trouble shows signs of this as well. They'll learn. They've got the best teacher they could have after all. :D

Another reason we lost the lead was decision making by our guards. Our point guard or chief ball handler, if you will, needs to make good decisions in the manner of Scheyer. Most of our issues were not ball handling issues but instead were poor decisions. Long passes when we needed to take time off the clock, passing to a big man who doesn't do well with free throws, getting yourself essentially trapped up high on the baseline. Driving into a crowd is also an issue. We also have had our guards trying to make spectactular plays rather than working the ball for the shot. This is not new for Duke, and each year the coaches have to curb these impulses. The good thing about these failings is that they were all on film and coach K can use those in review as teaching moments.

[slower]

Agreed, I thought Dawkins was hitting shots tonight that even JJ would have missed.

Really? Which ones would JJ have missed?

GREAT game for Dre. But until he consistently shows JJ's mental toughness, ability to create shots from anywhere on the court, physical conditioning and killer instinct, it would be nice for people to stop forcing these Dre/JJ comparisons.

[dukedoc]

I know this has been mentioned earlier in this thread, but I'm still thinking about it. I don't recall MSU being a dirty team but there seemed to be a lot of nonsense last night capped off by the knee to Tyler's head. Just saying that Nix really has to grow up mentally to match the size of his girth.

[77devil]

Agreed, I thought Dawkins was hitting shots tonight that even JJ would have missed.

How soon they forget. It's simply a rediculous comparison.


Really? Which ones would JJ have missed?

GREAT game for Dre. But until he consistently shows JJ's mental toughness, ability to create shots from anywhere on the court, physical conditioning and killer instinct, it would be nice for people to stop forcing these Dre/JJ comparisons.

What he said.


There were plenty of teachable moments from last nights game for the coaching staff to work in practice. All the better that Duke won under the circumstances.

-Senior leadership from a team captain-You can be sure Miles has a one on one with "The Captain" about leading by example. Mason's T was arguable, Miles' was no excuse.
-Inbounding against the press
-Ball movement, patience, and clock management when protecting a lead. Fortunately, our guys had a big margin for this learning experience.
-Help defense- Obviously this is practiced everyday, but last night showed opportunity for much improvement.
-Making Austin's dribble drive ability more effective. It is understandable that Austin's instinct is to finish, but at the D-1 level he has to find the open man consistently.

This team is definitely a work in progress, and Duke has the best coach in the business. Get ready for the roller coaster.

[superdave]

The deepest Coach K Duke team ever (1997-98) still only went 7 deep in close games by the end of the year. And this was a team that had 10 guys average double-figure minutes over the course of the season, and in tough early games went 8 or 9 deep. Our current team is only going 7 deep in tough early games.

So you may be right, but history suggests otherwise.

Kedsy - Quinn and Josh both played sparingly in the first half last night. Josh played a little more because out 4/5 guys racked up a few fouls. Quinn played a little more because Austin had a few fouls and his shot wasnt going in. Do you see first half playing time for those guys going forward? I could see those guys - plus Murphy and Gbinije - playing 3-5 first half minutes in a lot of the games this year, although unlikely vs. Ohio State, Unc.

I'm not sure that necessarily means they are "in the rotation", just that they have earned a little run.

[noyac]

Coach K continues to impress me by showing how to do things the right way and teaching that to his players. Yesterday he benched Andre and Mason in points of the game where the score was still close. He did this because they did the wrong thing and he had to teach them that.

We all saw Mason reach out his arm at Thornton to push him aside. I personally didn't think it was a malicious act and more an act of self preservation, whether it was malicious or not is irrelevant. Coach K had to teach Mason that you can't do things like that.

Then Andre was jawing with an MSU player (I forget which one) and the ref pulled them aside to tell them to knock it off. Andre was on fire and I am sure most coaches would have left him in but Coach K felt that the ref's warning was not enough and he had to really send a message to Andre.

These are just some of the reasons I admire and respect Coach K and will always be a Duke fan.

[COYS]

I had to watch the ESPN3 replay of the game so I'm just getting to the thread. First, congrats to Coach K, the team, and the Duke basketball program. It's an amazing accomplishment . . . and ESPN actually did justice to it (surprisingly). 903 is hardly the end of the road, either. I'm hoping for 30+ more wins this season.

Defensively, this was a great game. MSU punched us in the mouth at first, and we responded by becoming even tougher than they were. Mason deserves a TON of credit for this. Forget his relatively low points and rebounds totals. He was consistent and focused, stepping up against a strong and physical team. The technical was dumb. And he wasn't perfect in his decision-making on offense, but he was strong on defense in a way that I'm not sure we've ever seen him.

It was great to see Andre move without the ball and be rewarded for his work. Hopefully this will motivate him to continue to work hard on offense. His confidence on offense seemed to spill over on defense, too. Actually, as Bob Green pointed out, it may have started with defense. That steal and dunk really seemed to jumpstart his game. He was one of the best defenders on the court, matching MSU's physicality. That's a great sign for the future.

As for Austin, this was one of the toughest matchups he will face all season. The Spartans are super physical. He's already adjusting to the speed of the college game. However, the strength of the Spartans was a little more than the still-slender Austin was ready for. I'm not worried at all. The skills are there. He's getting into good spots. He just has to get used to finishing (he was oh so close a number of times) and kicking out on the drive. He's a willing passer unless he decides to drive, at which point he drives to shoot for himself. If he can get better at balancing his scoring ability with his passing, it will actually open things up for him and I think we'll see his scoring average go up. Anyway, I'm not worried about Austin, at all. You know he's in the gym right now trying to get better after being frustrated last night.

And that brings me to the rest of the team. The final score notwithstanding, this was a pretty dominant win for Duke, especially in the second half. Strong, physical teams were a slight concern for me, as Andre is undersized against some college 3's, Austin is slender, Seth, is pretty small, and Ryan is not a particularly physical player. In addition, Mason and Miles had never been able to play defense consistently. The Spartans pushed us around for a while, but everyone answered the bell. Ryan, especially, upped his defensive game in the second half after gambling too much and giving up too much space in the first half. We took advantage of all of our mismatches, particularly with Ryan, proving that if the other team has an advantage in the post against us at the three or the four, we can still win the match-up by exploiting the strength of our perimeter game. Good stuff.

Seth made some mistakes but deserves a lot of credit, along with Tyler, for keeping our offense going against a tough defense. They also were incredibly pesky on defense and are a big part of why the Spartan post players could never get anything going. Most of the entry passes into the post came from Green and not from the guards (although some of their drives and dishes were nice). The team is still improving, but there was a lot to like. The ceiling for this team is really high. They just have to work on getting everyone operating at a high level night in, and night out.

[dukeballboy88]

I think you can compare Dawk and JJ on form. If I were judging simply on the way the shot looks, I might have to say Dawkins has the best form Ive ever seen. He is always squared up and its straight up and down. Its typical phone booth form and he always uses B-E-E-F. If I had to teach a class on just form and how a jump shot is suppsed to look, I'd use Dawkins shot as an example. Not saying JJ's wasnt beautiful because it was but just looking at both shooting, I might give Dawk the edge. Really, its splitting hairs or arguing about who is the richest billionaire but I thought I would add that.

If Ryan Kelly plays like that all year, we will be a tough team to beat. There is not many bigs that will be able to guard him.

I think Austin is trying to hard and that can easily be fixed, plus like someone mentioned earlier, he didnt get any calls on his way to the basket. He takes it to the rim hard and draws alot of contact and refs will start giving him the calls going forward.

Seth has one of the best shot fakes ive ever seen. He seems to get someone off their feet everytime he does it and his step back is money.

I love how Mase has developed the sky hook almost to perfection. It looks great and he has made about everyone he has taken. I think that needs to be his go to move when he gets it on the block. Plus, I like how he faces the defender when he catches it off the block. He can take any big man in the country off the dribble and he is a great passer. The no look to Ryan could be a play they can master. Because 9 out of 10 times when the ball comes to Mase on a pass the help defenders head will follow the ball and lose sight of his man. Ryan is smart enough to see that and can make a cut to the lane for an easy 2.

Miles just needs to relax. I know is Duke basketball and big games each week but its still basketball. The rim is the same height it was since middle school, the foul line is the same distance, the ball is the same size. When it comes down to it, its a game. Its a game Miles has played all his life. Just play and have fun.

I think Andre has the tools to be an All ACC caliber player. I was more impressed with the couple of shots he made going to the basket because if he can create off the dribble more, I can see this type of performance every night.

TT is a player every team needs. He is savy and tough and I like his energy level. Im glad we got him.

[feldspar]

Biggest frustration of the night was the mental mistakes by the brothers Plumlee. Both of them earned completely unnecessary technical fouls. Especially in a game like last night's, there's just no room for that.

[hq2]

I can't say enough about Dawk. I believe he's a clutch shooter and that's a nice weapon to have in Duke's arsenal. I'll forever be grateful for the two three's he hit against Baylor his freshman year that helped send Duke to the Final Four. He of course sealed the game against Belmont in the season opener this year, and now this. With countless former Duke greats looking on and with all the media attention about 903 and all the self-imposed pressure to win it for Coach K, the entire team played jittery in the first half except for one man who shot lights out and allowed the team to weather the storm. Gotta love that kid. Hopefully this game will springboard him into becoming a consistent starter for the rest of the season.

So whither Andre? Will he be "Mister November, Missed in February", like the last two years? This is the kind of game I have believed
he could have with consistency once he got it going, but he hasn't shown it the last two years. What I like about this game is that he
showed the other intangibles, hustle, defense, movement away from the ball, that he hasn't always shown in the past two years. And
these are the kinds of things that will keep him on the floor when his shot isn't falling (and more importantly, keep him out of Ks
doghouse) If Andre could keep playing like this, he could be an All America level player. He just needs to keep up this level of overall play to get there.

[oldnavy]

I think Coach Knight hit the nail on the head when he said this Duke team is on the right "path", meaning they are doing the things they need to to become a very good team. Remember this is only the 3rd game of the year, I suspect that the team we have come Feb/March will be surprising to some.

[Kedsy]

Well I think originally you said he would only go 7 deep in January/February in general, as opposed to close/tough games, but yeah it makes sense from a strategy standpoint to tend to only want your top 7 or 8 guys on the court in a tough game.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I always meant close/tough games. If we're blowing out Wake Forest at home, I expect plenty of guys to get plenty of minutes, even though it's an ACC game.


But a number is just a number, and I happen to think that every team and every game is different. That's why I'm not so quick to say that K will only play X players significant minutes come ACC play- because I'm sure I can find plenty of ACC games/postseason games in various years where he played more than 7 guys. Additionally, one distinction I would make for this particular team is that Quinn, Josh, Mike and Murph all have various attributes about their games that aren't exactly bountiful in the current top-7. Ball handling and distributing for Quinn; Size and relative athleticism on the wings for Josh, Mike and Murph. That's what I meant when I said that the opportunity is potentially there.

*edited to add that both last year's team and the '10 national champs pretty consistently went 8 deep in late season games. Not saying that they did every game, but there are plenty of examples just from the brief glimpse I just took.

This is all true, to an extent. Again, possibly poor communication on my part, but when I talk about being in the rotation, I mean getting regular (10 or more) minutes. In 2010, in our last five NCAAT games, here's how many players played 10 minutes or more:

Cal -- 7
Purdue -- 6 (plus one player with 9 mins)
Baylor -- 8
West Virginia -- 6 (plus one player with 8 mins and one with 7, but we won by 21 and I don't think these guys were in the game very much when it mattered)
Butler -- 5 (plus one player with 9 mins)

I wouldn't call that consistently going 8 deep, but obviously it did happen once. And I'm pretty sure it happened once or twice in the ACCT that year as well. And if your point is that Quinn and/or Alex and/or Josh and/or Mike can get 5 or so minutes in the big games, then we just have a definitional issue and I completely agree with you.

Finally, I personally like a longer rotation. I hope Quinn or Alex or whoever play so well they force Coach K to give them regular minutes, and not at the expense of someone else (e.g., when Elliot Williams broke into the rotation in 2009, Greg Paulus dropped out of it; we still played a 7 man rotation at the end). I'm just saying that based on history, we're not likely to have more than 7 guys (consistently) playing double-figure minutes (in tough/close games toward the end of the year), as much as we'd all prefer that we did.

[Kedsy]

While Mason has improved in this regard, he gets the ball stolen from him by dribbling the ball too much on a far-too-frequent basis.

He only had two turnovers. Not sure if both were strips while he was dribbling, but I doubt it. "Far-too-frequent" might be a bit unfair.


Kedsy - Quinn and Josh both played sparingly in the first half last night. Josh played a little more because out 4/5 guys racked up a few fouls. Quinn played a little more because Austin had a few fouls and his shot wasnt going in. Do you see first half playing time for those guys going forward? I could see those guys - plus Murphy and Gbinije - playing 3-5 first half minutes in a lot of the games this year, although unlikely vs. Ohio State, Unc.

I'm not sure that necessarily means they are "in the rotation", just that they have earned a little run.

Yes, I do see it, more or less. I don't know about 5 first half minutes, but 2 or 3 in a lot of games (even the tough/close ones) is attainable for two or even three of the Quinn/Alex/Josh/Mike quartet. I expect Josh to get 3 to 5 minutes in almost all games because I doubt our main trio of bigs will too often top 75 aggregate minutes. Quinn is an exciting talent and I hope he forces his way to at least 8 or 10 minutes a game (not sure at whose expense, though). And we've heard so many good things about Alex that, once he's healthy, we have to hope he deserves at least 5 to 10 minutes a game (again, not sure at whose expense those minutes would come). Mike has all the tools and we just have to see how quickly he learns how to use them.

Ultimately the "problem" is not how much (or little) Coach K wants to use his bench, but how much he wants to use his starters. I assume Mason/Miles/Ryan will average 75 aggregate minutes. Coach K almost always likes his starting backcourt to get 30 to 35 minutes each, so let's say 65 combined for Austin and Seth (and if one of them plays less, like last night Austin played only 23, Coach usually makes up for that by expanding the fifth starter's minutes, like last night when Andre played 38). If Andre and Tyler are the primary guys playing the third perimeter position, I doubt they'd combine for less than 45 between them, maybe 40 if they're both having off-nights. That only leaves 15 minutes (occasionally as much as 20) for the other four combined, which could mean an 8th guy (Quinn or Alex) getting 10 minutes and a ninth guy (Josh) getting 5, or it could mean three guys (Quinn/Josh/Alex or Mike) getting 5 each.

These guys might deserve more minutes, but I just don't see where they'll come from. If Quinn or Alex force their way into the rotation and play 10 or more minutes, I have to think it means someone else (Tyler? Andre? senior captain Miles?) dropping out (playing fewer than 10 minutes). And right now it's hard for me to see that happening with any of our top 7 guys. Closest I can see is if Quinn's defense comes along to where it's almost as good as Tyler's, then Quinn and Tyler could switch positions in the pecking order, but, again, it's hard to envision Quinn's defense getting that advanced that quickly.

But to answer your question, since they do seem deserving, I envision two or three of them playing a few meaningful first-half minutes in most games.


Finally, I obviously don't know that this is how it will shake out and I'm not disrespecting Quinn or Alex or Mike by saying they won't play so much. I'm not suggesting it's improper to believe that [insert your favorite young player here] will see scads of minutes as the season moves forward. I don't claim to know Coach K's mind and I understand that players earn time and things change and Coach K sometimes makes big lineup changes in February. I'm just saying K has been pretty consistent in the way he doles out minutes. Even with his startling late-season changes, when someone steps into a much larger role someone else slips into a much smaller one. It's really just simple math.

[tbyers11]

A few things to consider here. First, except for the dumb dead ball foul, Mason played a heck of a game. This despite only getting 3 shot attempts. He defended really well, had amazing passes and was all over the place making things happen. People will point to MSU missing "easy shots", but much of that was due to the pressure the 3 bigs were putting on the MSU bigs. Our bigs challenged shots, especially Mason and Kelly, and either blocked, altered, or caused MSU to rush numerous shotsl Give some credit to the defense.

I strongly agree with these points. Miles did not have a good game, but I think that Mason and Ryan, especially in the 2nd half for Ryan, had very good games. Mason is really showing some good things in the post offensively with his moves and passing. He is not Jared Sullinger yet, but his footwork and composure are greatly improved. Also agree that those interior "bunnies" that MSU missed were almost all strongly challenged by the interior D.


What is the impetus for "going to the monitor"?

They went for Mason's (stupid) elbow and Nix's box out, neither of which I thought warranted a call. Yet they let the (obvious to me) knee to Thornton's head go??? That looked like it had to potential to really hurt Tyler.

Would love an explanation.

-Brumby

This really bothers me too. I understand the need to go to the monitor to make sure that you get things right in a big fracas situation. However, if MSU's Thornton hadn't whined about the little shove that he got from Mason I don't think the refs would have gone to the monitor. The Nix shove to Andre on the FT was even more ticky-tack. If we go the monitor you can find contact like these two examples on probably 50% of all plays. Overuse of the monitor really disrupts the flow of the game. The announcers hinted at Mason's "shove" being an issue because it was a dead ball. Nix's shove was after a made FT. Is this a dead ball situation? The Nix knee to Tyler's head was happening just as a foul was being called and I guess wasn't actually a dead ball. Is this the difference?
Is it the possibility of an elbow being thrown? I know they can go to the monitor for this. Mason's and Nix's shoves could have possibly been elbows so that would make sense but neither of them were actually elbows yet fouls were still called. I know that there are some former refs that post on here. Do any of you have any clarification?

My thoughts on the inability to finish games issue are 2-fold. One, the primary ballhandlers in these situations so far (Seth and Tyler) either haven't been on the court much in these situations in college (Tyler) or haven't been the primary ballhandler when on the court (Seth). All the players (Scheyer, Nolan, Kyle, Kyrie) that typically dominated the ball in end game situations the last 2 years are gone. Composure with the game on the line can't really be replicated in practice. Seth had three bad plays (an early shot that led to a breakout, a travel, and the horrendous 3/4 court alley-oop attempt to Mason) vs one good play (the drive to basket and nice finish) in the last 5 minutes. Hopefully, he will improve. I also really think that Quinn could be beneficial in these situations. Hopefully, early season games will allow him to get more PT and will allow Coach K to be more comfortable using him. That kind of segues to my second point, fatigue. Coach K actually referenced after both the Belmont and MSU games that the players might have been a little tired at the end. I know that winning the Belmont and MSU games was important for a young team's psyche, but I hope that Quinn, Gbinije and Alex get a little more playing time in future early season games to hopefully keep everyone a little fresher at the end.

[wilko]

Congrats on the record.
When these dudes are old and grey they can look back and know they made a contribution to that objective.

Andre was a man tonight. If he can continue that effort I'll be greatly encouraged for this years prospects. He was just awesome tonight. If he doesn't DO that... then maybe MSU starts to get more confident and then maybe they get some friendly rolls on the rim based on that as opposed to rushed shots to keep pace.

Seth showed up BIG as well. Whatever probs he had before with his shoes in earlier games were fixed. He was in control as opposed to sliding all over the place. Good for him.

MP2 and MP1 - loved the hard-nosed defensive play. They were not afraid to mix it up and would not be bullied and gave as good as they got. They BOTH should take TT out to dinner because Tyler saved their bacon on help-side D several times. When the MP's got beat on D, TT was there for a strip or tie-up. TT is my unsung hero. If he doesn't Do that... MSU gets easy buckets.

That said the MP's have stuff to work on Defensively for position, reaction and communication. I would feel A LOT better about the win if Mason got a handful of those hooks to go down. Seems like he was called for 4 walks when he was getting ready to make a move. And Miles - maybe he should get a massage before the game to relax and just play. Getting a shot or 2 to go down would do worlds for his confidence/ I dont think he is all that far away from being at Masons level of play. The effort is there.

A wins a win and we'll take it. But we've along way to go.

[gcashwell]

This really bothers me too. I understand the need to go to the monitor to make sure that you get things right in a big fracas situation. However, if MSU's Thornton hadn't whined about the little shove that he got from Mason I don't think the refs would have gone to the monitor. The Nix shove to Andre on the FT was even more ticky-tack. If we go the monitor you can find contact like these two examples on probably 50% of all plays. Overuse of the monitor really disrupts the flow of the game. The announcers hinted at Mason's "shove" being an issue because it was a dead ball. Nix's shove was after a made FT. Is this a dead ball situation? The Nix knee to Tyler's head was happening just as a foul was being called and I guess wasn't actually a dead ball. Is this the difference?
Is it the possibility of an elbow being thrown? I know they can go to the monitor for this. Mason's and Nix's shoves could have possibly been elbows so that would make sense but neither of them were actually elbows yet fouls were still called. I know that there are some former refs that post on here. Do any of you have any clarification?



I figured the Nix shove to Andre was a makeup call for a flagrant 1 not being called during the Kelly play a few seconds earlier.

[superdave]

Just now looking at the box score (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/798039.pdf?ATCLID=205334176&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200):

Good

5 first half minutes for Josh. He needs seasoning now because I guarantee we'll need late game minutes out of him at some point. Big men tend to foul a lot...
38 minutes for Andre. Coach K rode the hot hand. I suspect we'll see a lot of variance in minutes early this season.
We only lost on the boards by 1. Our guards did a good job of hitting the boards. I'll take it vs. Izzo.
3 point shooting. We're at about 50% for the season.
41 free throw attempts. More please.



Bad

8 assists, 17 turnovers. Bad ratio!
Only FG attempts by our 4/5 guys. We fed the post, but MSU guys seemed to push our bigs off the post a step or two beyond where they are actually capable of making a post move.
Only 4 offensive rebounds.
Keith Appling went off the last 5 minutes. Not cooooool.



I dont know

No Silent G this game. I would love to see him get some minutes early in the season, of course I have no idea how he has been in practice.

[roywhite]

Another take on the stats...

Our rebounding was spread around and we were nearly even with Michigan State (they had 32 to our 31)
With the emphasis Mich State puts on rebounding, they need a big margin in that category to win against good teams, and did not get it last night
Seth was our leading(!) rebounder with 7, as well as having 4 steals and 20 points.

I like to see our guards helping out on the boards, and this could be an area of improvement over last year.
Seth, Andre, Austin, and Tyler Thornton all seem capable of getting some boards and moving down to double team post players when necessary.

One other thing we are so used to that we sometimes forget to mention
3-point shooting is a real strong point for this team
10-21 as a team is outstanding
How many other teams have the depth of outside shooters we have with Andre, Seth, Ryan Kelly, and Austin Rivers?

[Kedsy]

I would feel A LOT better about the win if Mason got a handful of those hooks to go down. Seems like he was called for 4 walks when he was getting ready to make a move.

I know you're exaggerating, but he only took three shots without being fouled. And he made one of them. Unless you mean he should have finished the hook through the contact, he couldn't have made a "handful." Also, he only had two turnovers, and I think only one of them was a walk (I believe he was stripped while dribbling on the other).


And Miles - maybe he should get a massage before the game to relax and just play. Getting a shot or 2 to go down would do worlds for his confidence/ I dont think he is all that far away from being at Masons level of play. The effort is there.

I agree with this observation. I have noticed in past years that both Miles and Mason play much better when they complete a dunk opportunity early in the game. If we ran alley-oops to both of them in the first few minutes (and they completed the dunk), I think both Mason and Miles would be a lot more consistent (and consistently good).


Just now looking at the box score (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/798039.pdf?ATCLID=205334176&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200):

41 free throw attempts. More please.

41 free throw attempts is a lot. Michigan State only had 18. Or do you mean more games like this, please?



Only [8] FG attempts by our 4/5 guys. We fed the post, but MSU guys seemed to push our bigs off the post a step or two beyond where they are actually capable of making a post move.

As has been noted earlier (even by you, sort of), the bigs also had 18 free throw chances. So they had a lot more than 8 FG attempts, just got fouled a lot while they took their shots.

[CDu]

As has been noted earlier (even by you, sort of), the bigs also had 18 free throw chances. So they had a lot more than 8 FG attempts, just got fouled a lot while they took their shots.

The FT count doesn't accurately reflect the chances either, as several of those free throws came on non-shooting fouls once we were in the bonus. There were very few shooting fouls. I'd guess the number of field goal attempts was probably closer to 11-12 than 8.

We definitely threw the ball in to the bigs (really the Plumlees, especially Mason) a bunch in hopes of post shots. However, the Plumlees were frequently being forced to post up way too far from the basket. As such, they didn't look great in the post. Mason looked methodical and uncomfortable, though he did hit a couple of hooks (one waved off after a travel). He's not quick, so he's going to need to start his touches deeper in the post to be a consistently effective scorer.

[ncexnyc]

As per my usual routine, I got to watch the game early in the morning after coming home from work. It lets me compare what I've read in the in-game thread and the post-game thread, with what I actually see and in a more detached and relaxed manner.

Not sure why there is so much talk about another blown lead. Last night's 20 point lead didn't vanish as quickly as Friday's lead did and while I'd love for the team to blow opponents out by 20+, that isn't going to happen against quality opposition very often. I think we did job of trading time for points.

Austin Rivers has an explosive first step and can get into the lane seemingly at will. With more experience he'll start finishing better and hitting open players. I was concerned about his so-called attitude, but to date he's done a fairly good job of not expressing himself when a play doesn't go his way.

Seth had a very nice game. He's a scorer, but his PG skills are improving. Another ill advised play at the end of the game, but he'll learn that crunchtime decisions require him to make the smart play over the highlight reel play.

Andre continues to baffle me. Two so-so games and then he goes off. He wasn't making his usual wide open shots, but the shots he was making were JJ like. Coming around curls, a man in his face. A truly awesome game. Can we please get this game in and game out.

Mason was solid. Played with some attitude and was abled to draw fouls against the opposition.

Ryan had some gambles on defense go against him, but he had a big second half and his range definitely gives us a big match-up edge.

Tyler had a rough night physically. Took several cheapshots including a well measured Ric Flair knee to the head. As pesky as ever, he's definitely a defensive sparkplug.

Quinn wasn't much of a factor, but better nights are surely ahead.

Miles had a really poor game yesterday. He seemed to be caught-up in the moment and just couldn't calm down. Every ball seemed to slip out of his hands and nothing went his way. I'm sure he'll come up with some big moments for the team down the line.

No Alex or Silent G.

A great effort on the boards and there's no way anyone in their right mind could call Duke a soft, finesse team.

[loldevilz]

As per my usual routine, I got to watch the game early in the morning after coming home from work. It lets me compare what I've read in the in-game thread and the post-game thread, with what I actually see and in a more detached and relaxed manner.

Not sure why there is so much talk about another blown lead. Last night's 20 point lead didn't vanish as quickly as Friday's lead did and while I'd love for the team to blow opponents out by 20+, that isn't going to happen against quality opposition very often. I think we did job of trading time for points.


Firstly, when you have a 20 point lead with 10 minutes to go, it shouldn't go down to the final possession.

I'm pretty sure that at one point we gave up like 13 points in 2 minutes.

My issue with the way the game was handled is that we made about 5 mistakes that you shouldn't make in this situation

1) Getting a 5 second violation on an inbounds play
2) 2 times Thornton turned the ball over under pressure
3) Fouling a 3 point shooter and then not getting the rebound off of a missed free throw
4) Multiple transition baskets given up during stall ball
5) Passing the ball to Mason Plumlee when he's going to be fouled

[NovaScotian]

everybody loves draymond

[CDu]

Firstly, when you have a 20 point lead with 10 minutes to go, it shouldn't go down to the final possession.

Technically, it didn't quite come down to the last possession. They were never closer than 2 possessions (3+ possessions until the final 30 seconds). But still not an efficiently handled end-of-game on our part.


My issue with the way the game was handled is that we made about 5 mistakes that you shouldn't make in this situation

1) Getting a 5 second violation on an inbounds play
2) 2 times Thornton turned the ball over under pressure
3) Fouling a 3 point shooter and then not getting the rebound off of a missed free throw
4) Multiple transition baskets given up during stall ball
5) Passing the ball to Mason Plumlee when he's going to be fouled

Agree that the last 7:30 of the game wasn't played great on our end. We gave up most of an 18-point lead in that stretch. I'd also add the three turnovers by Curry, one of which was completely unforced with 30+ seconds on the shot clock.

I'd point out that the stall ball part of this is a red herring. That's usually what should be avoided with stall ball. With stall ball, you should be able to get back defensively (since you should be set offensively). That's just lazy effort in getting back. And at the end, some of those layups were allowed because we didn't want to give up the 3.

[dukeballboy88]

Yeah we were up 13 with 3 minutes left. That has to be corrected. I dont know if TT handles the ball well enough to be in late game situations when protecting a lead. I love him and think we need him to be good but he doesnt look comfortable with ball when the other team is pressing. By no means am I saying the lead evaporated because of him, its just what I saw down the stretch.

[gwlaw99]

As per my usual routine, I got to watch the game early in the morning after coming home from work. It lets me compare what I've read in the in-game thread and the post-game thread, with what I actually see and in a more detached and relaxed manner.

Not sure why there is so much talk about another blown lead. Last night's 20 point lead didn't vanish as quickly as Friday's lead did and while I'd love for the team to blow opponents out by 20+, that isn't going to happen against quality opposition very often. I think we did job of trading time for points.

Austin Rivers has an explosive first step and can get into the lane seemingly at will. With more experience he'll start finishing better and hitting open players. I was concerned about his so-called attitude, but to date he's done a fairly good job of not expressing himself when a play doesn't go his way.

Seth had a very nice game. He's a scorer, but his PG skills are improving. Another ill advised play at the end of the game, but he'll learn that crunchtime decisions require him to make the smart play over the highlight reel play.

Andre continues to baffle me. Two so-so games and then he goes off. He wasn't making his usual wide open shots, but the shots he was making were JJ like. Coming around curls, a man in his face. A truly awesome game. Can we please get this game in and game out.

Mason was solid. Played with some attitude and was abled to draw fouls against the opposition.

Ryan had some gambles on defense go against him, but he had a big second half and his range definitely gives us a big match-up edge.

Tyler had a rough night physically. Took several cheapshots including a well measured Ric Flair knee to the head. As pesky as ever, he's definitely a defensive sparkplug.

Quinn wasn't much of a factor, but better nights are surely ahead.

Miles had a really poor game yesterday. He seemed to be caught-up in the moment and just couldn't calm down. Every ball seemed to slip out of his hands and nothing went his way. I'm sure he'll come up with some big moments for the team down the line.

No Alex or Silent G.

A great effort on the boards and there's no way anyone in their right mind could call Duke a soft, finesse team.

I agree with all of this. Mason was also altering a lot of shots. That doesn't get on the stat sheet, but it was the reason for many of their misses.

[gwlaw99]

Yeah we were up 13 with 3 minutes left. That has to be corrected. I dont know if TT handles the ball well enough to be in late game situations when protecting a lead. I love him and think we need him to be good but he doesnt look comfortable with ball when the other team is pressing. By no means am I saying the lead evaporated because of him, its just what I saw down the stretch.

I remember a few nail biters last year that we won where I was cursing K for starting stall ball too early :) Stall ball +turnovers is not a good combination.

[Billy Dat]

One trend worth watching is our lack of transition points. We've got a couple of great running big men but don't have a transition PG to get them the ball. As a result, maybe we can't expect to have a meaningful transition game, although it's too early to say. We haven't had a lot of perimeter steals, but there have been some long rebounds where I thought we could have run and didn't. I feel like Thornton, Rivers or Cook would be more natural fast break PGs than Curry, but Curry's been playing well so maybe our best offense won't include a lot of transition ala 2010. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.

If we are headed toward being more of a half court team, I want to see Mason get more touches. Someone earlier mentioned that, yesterday, he was not getting good position and therefore was catching 15 feet from the basket. That needs to change. I'd like to see some more high/low action to get him the ball closer to the hoop because he is showing a nice hook, and he is passing really well - nice kick-outs and some nice drop offs to Kelly, especially that bounce pass in the second half. He's got the makings of a really dynamic offensive force, both scoring and passing, and he's only going to get better with more touches. Running a lot more motion through him will open up the perimeter, too.

People are also commenting about Rivers inability to go left. I must admit that there were a bunch of times yesterday when he was being challenged to go left and he didn't, which surprised me because he abused some people going left in the early games. Go left, young man, go left!

[sagegrouse]

Firstly, when you have a 20 point lead with 10 minutes to go, it shouldn't go down to the final possession.

I'm pretty sure that at one point we gave up like 13 points in 2 minutes.

My issue with the way the game was handled is that we made about 5 mistakes that you shouldn't make in this situation

1) Getting a 5 second violation on an inbounds play
2) 2 times Thornton turned the ball over under pressure
3) Fouling a 3 point shooter and then not getting the rebound off of a missed free throw
4) Multiple transition baskets given up during stall ball
5) Passing the ball to Mason Plumlee when he's going to be fouled

Lots of mistakes and lots of things to work on. OTOH I thought we were in trouble before halftime because Michigan State was pushing us around and grabbing all the loose balls. Thank heavens for Andre!

After halftime we took the Spartans to the woodshed: from 16:37 to 9:18 we outscored MSU 20-1. The Spartans are a good team so they came back a bit, and Duke doesn't have Nolan around to run the clock and then breakdown the defense for a layup. But we'll get better at the end-of-game stuff.

sagegrouse

[roywhite]

One trend worth watching is our lack of transition points. We've got a couple of great running big men but don't have a transition PG to get them the ball. As a result, maybe we can't expect to have a meaningful transition game, although it's too early to say. We haven't had a lot of perimeter steals, but there have been some long rebounds where I thought we could have run and didn't. I feel like Thornton, Rivers or Cook would be more natural fast break PGs than Curry, but Curry's been playing well so maybe our best offense won't include a lot of transition ala 2010. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.

If we are headed toward being more of a half court team, I want to see Mason get more touches. Someone earlier mentioned that, yesterday, he was not getting good position and therefore was catching 15 feet from the basket. That needs to change. I'd like to see some more high/low action to get him the ball closer to the hoop because he is showing a nice hook, and he is passing really well - nice kick-outs and some nice drop offs to Kelly, especially that bounce pass in the second half. He's got the makings of a really dynamic offensive force, both scoring and passing, and he's only going to get better with more touches. Running a lot more motion through him will open up the perimeter, too.

People are also commenting about Rivers inability to go left. I must admit that there were a bunch of times yesterday when he was being challenged to go left and he didn't, which surprised me because he abused some people going left in the early games. Go left, young man, go left!

Good area for observation. I'm hopeful that we can establish a faster pace and look to run more in transition.

Although there's nobody on the roster who would be confused with Kryie, we do have several elements for potential transition success. Both Mason and Miles can snatch the ball off the defenive boards and change ends quickly. Both run well, and Mason is a good passer. Both dunk with authority and really are better suited offensively to transition than a half court set. Ryan Kelly does not run as well, but he's a great trailer to take a clear outside shot if lanes get cut off. Who becomes the primary ball handler and distributor in transition? Don't know for sure, maybe Seth. We certainly have guys who can flare out and set up at 3-point lines.

My hunch is that K is not pushing the transition game at this point, and is more concerned with overall establishing roles. Plus Michigan State is a hard team to run on.

Again, interesting to see how this develops.

[CDu]

One trend worth watching is our lack of transition points. We've got a couple of great running big men but don't have a transition PG to get them the ball. As a result, maybe we can't expect to have a meaningful transition game, although it's too early to say. We haven't had a lot of perimeter steals, but there have been some long rebounds where I thought we could have run and didn't. I feel like Thornton, Rivers or Cook would be more natural fast break PGs than Curry, but Curry's been playing well so maybe our best offense won't include a lot of transition ala 2010. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.

Part of the lack of transition is the lack of live-ball turnovers. Another part is that I don't think our bigs are all that fast or quick. They're good leapers who can finish in transition, but unless they start near half-court, they aren't going to be involved in a fast break. But it's true that we don't have the explosive end-to-end PG to really push tempo. I don't think Thornton is a fast-break leader, and I haven't seen enough of Cook to know yet. Rivers can get out and go, but decision-making is still a question for him (more of a shoot-first guy).


If we are headed toward being more of a half court team, I want to see Mason get more touches. Someone earlier mentioned that, yesterday, he was not getting good position and therefore was catching 15 feet from the basket. That needs to change. I'd like to see some more high/low action to get him the ball closer to the hoop because he is showing a nice hook, and he is passing really well - nice kick-outs and some nice drop offs to Kelly, especially that bounce pass in the second half. He's got the makings of a really dynamic offensive force, both scoring and passing, and he's only going to get better with more touches. Running a lot more motion through him will open up the perimeter, too.

I was one of the ones to mention this, so I'm glad you followed up. The Mason-to-Kelly combo did work a few times in the second half. So if Plumlee isn't going to get great position, I'd certainly like to see more of that (or more cutting from the perimeter guys in general). As for Mason getting the ball lower, I think it's a two-way street. He has to work harder to establish position at the right times (doesn't do any good to fight for position when the guard isn't ready to feed you) and for longer periods of time, and the guards need to do better at identifying when he's established really good position.

It's fine to sometimes start further from the basket on a post up. But starting every time 15 feet from the basket makes life very difficult unless you have a really polished offensive post game.

[ncexnyc]

Firstly, when you have a 20 point lead with 10 minutes to go, it shouldn't go down to the final possession.

I'm pretty sure that at one point we gave up like 13 points in 2 minutes.

My issue with the way the game was handled is that we made about 5 mistakes that you shouldn't make in this situation

1) Getting a 5 second violation on an inbounds play
2) 2 times Thornton turned the ball over under pressure
3) Fouling a 3 point shooter and then not getting the rebound off of a missed free throw
4) Multiple transition baskets given up during stall ball
5) Passing the ball to Mason Plumlee when he's going to be fouled

Maybe you should look at the big picture. Despite not having KI, NS, and KS this talented group of pieces has managed to open very large leads against two quality opponents. Now I used the word pieces instead of team, because this group of inexperienced kids are still learing their roles and how to play off of each other. Eventually they will become a more coherent team that will display more consistancy.

So they've had these big leads and they did lose them, but you know what? The fact of the matter is they prevailed in both contests. That should tell you something about these kids. That despite the pressure, they found a way to gut out wins against two solid opponents. I'll take this everyday of the week.

[bjornolf]

I thought that maybe certain players were playing a little TOO hard, and maybe a little tight, last night. It reminded me of some baseball players trying to reach milestones and making it much harder than it should have been. Great effort though, and glad it's over so the guys can go back to just playing ball.


Hot darn! K was on Mike & Mike this morning, and said the guys played tight in the first half because of the situation. :D Read my post, eh coach? (kidding of course on that last part)

[NSDukeFan]

A few things to consider here. First, except for the dumb dead ball foul, Mason played a heck of a game. This despite only getting 3 shot attempts. He defended really well, had amazing passes and was all over the place making things happen. People will point to MSU missing "easy shots", but much of that was due to the pressure the 3 bigs were putting on the MSU bigs. Our bigs challenged shots, especially Mason and Kelly, and either blocked, altered, or caused MSU to rush numerous shotsl Give some credit to the defense.

... Under that pressure, this inexperienced team could have laid an egg. THey didn't.
I agree completely. I thought this was a great win for the team early in the year. I also thought Mason played very well and has played strong in every game this year. Like many, I disliked the over the shoulder fade away hook Mason seemed to employ some of the time the past couple of years. I feel like he has taken the ball strong on just about all his offensive moves, has passed nicely from the post and has been a force defensively and on the glass. His numbers may not have been great this game, but I thought he was, against a very physical team.

I thought Mason played better than some are giving him credit for. Yes, he only took 3 shots, but his 10 free throws were largely a result of assertive offensive moves. 5-10 free throws actually is progress, so hopefully that will continue to trend upwards. I also thought there should have been a goal tend called on one of his hooks, and he made another nice hook, unfortunately after a travel. He made himself a threat. He also made some great passes and defended against a lot of size, until the final minutes when we went to the matador defense. Ryan has become reliable and has added some variation to his game. Miles, on the other hand, had a really off game.
I also thought Mason showed a lot of toughness in this game and has so far this year.

Austin at least showed that he can get by people, which the team needs. He also is starting to look to pass at times, but needs to be stronger with the ball and to finish the layups when he gets there. I think he'll really grow throughout the year.

Obviously, great to see a big game from Dawkins.

I saw Murphy shooting around pre-game. Is he still out with the concussion? I thought he showed enough promise in preseason that I would be surprised if he redshirts.

Thank you, Coach K!!!!!
I also think we will see great things from Austin this year. I don't think there is any thought that Murphy would redshirt and don't think he can since he played in the exhibitions, but since he is just coming back from the head injury, I am not shocked he didn't get in this game. Hopefully, we see him against Davidson and get solid contributions from him this year.

...

I can't say enough about Dawk. I believe he's a clutch shooter and that's a nice weapon to have in Duke's arsenal. I'll forever be grateful for the two three's he hit against Baylor his freshman year that helped send Duke to the Final Four. He of course sealed the game against Belmont in the season opener this year, and now this. With countless former Duke greats looking on and with all the media attention about 903 and all the self-imposed pressure to win it for Coach K, the entire team played jittery in the first half except for one man who shot lights out and allowed the team to weather the storm. Gotta love that kid. Hopefully this game will springboard him into becoming a consistent starter for the rest of the season.
I agree completely. Way to go Dre. That's a few times that when the team has needed him most, he has come through.

Agreed. Mason had a good game. I give him a ton of credit for helping Michigan St miss close-in shots with his shotblocking presence and length. Sure, MSU's post players aren't the most polished, but I firmly believe the intimidation factor played a part as well.

He's become a guy that we can rely on in the post. He has scoring moves, improved touch, and just as importantly, good court vision and passing ability to find cutters and open shooters. You can now throw the ball into him in the post and be pretty confident that something positive will happen. That's a great weapon to have in the arsenal.

Also agree that Miles struggled mightily. He's still not able to translate his practice dominance to real live game play. Yet. Hopefully it'll come at some point this season because we'll definitely need him to round out a very good 3-man post rotation. He's the missing piece right now with Ryan and Mason being so solid. If he can play with more confidence and have poise when he receives the ball, then he'll start to see the kickout opportunities and reduce the strips and fumbling of passes that he has suffered through.

Overall I like where we're at. We're a good team right now who has a lot of upside contained in Rivers and Miles finding their games at some point this season. We have time.
Well said.



Biggest frustration of the night was the mental mistakes by the brothers Plumlee. Both of them earned completely unnecessary technical fouls. Especially in a game like last night's, there's just no room for that.
I agree with your sentiment, but in this game, there was enough room for that. ;)

I have obviously been impressed with Mason's play and toughness so far this year, but I also can't say enough about Tyler's toughness in a physical game like this one. He is a guy that I am getting the feeling is never going to get out-toughed, which is a nice thing to have on your team. The team showed nice toughness in a pressure filled game where everyone from Duke was hoping to see victory #903. Congratulations to the team for coming through.

[brumby041]

Tyler had a rough night physically. Took several cheapshots including a well measured Ric Flair knee to the head. As pesky as ever, he's definitely a defensive sparkplug.



He really reminds me of Wojo... LOVE IT!

-Brumby

[DukieInBrasil]

TT is a player every team needs. He is savy and tough and I like his energy level. Im glad we got him.
There were several different plays last night when TT got in there and knocked a ball loose, but didn't get credit for a steal, in fact one time Dre got the credit. In the end, i don't think TT cares if he got credit for them, he's all about making winning plays. He had that unfortunate slip on the stupid f'ing logo near midcourt for the turn, and he still makes some not-so great plays on O. Still, his intensity, nose for the ball on D, and generally solid ball handling make him much more valuable than his stats alone might lead one to believe.
His rep as a great defender stopper are over-rated i think, as his man-to-man D is somewhat lacking. However, his ability to come weakside and strip, steal or generally disrupt a ballhandler are superb. He did that several times last night too.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No time to read the thread....sorry in advance if I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

My first look at Duke this season besides one of those not too informative exhibitions...

I thought Duke was...gritty... against a strong MSU team. MSU always plays tough, and Duke played tough too. Coach K's teams rarely back down and this team showed some heart on a big night for K. He'd probably have a hundred fewer wins if he didn't get his teams to play that tough all the time. Coach K is a great coach and anybody who says otherwise is not paying attention.

All that said, I didn't think the Duke team played very well in this one. The positive for you guys is is the old story that good teams "win ugly".

To be a master of the obvious, Dawkins shot it well, very well and was active on D. Shooting like that will bail a team out when they are not playing anywhere near their best, and I thought that was what happened. That and MSU pretty much stunk it up, especially Nix, to start the second half, missing everything and getting caught pouting. Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away. There will be more nights when they don't fall that well than those when they do.

Kelly was solid, Curry was OK...everybody else played sub par. Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Austin is finding out his ultra-quick first step is only the start of a play. He's got to learn to finish better, whether its at the rack or with a pass. Way too much talent to not become a success, but he's got to commit to getting under control in all aspects of the game.

I was also surprised that Dukes ball handling overall looked so suspect. There were too many times when bigs and wings turned it over on the dribble, or drove into touble and struggled with the handle. That should improve as the season goes along and they get use to playing together against that level of competition.

Still a good win against a good team, and congrats to coach K on an outstanding accomplishment.

[bass-piscator]

I knew the Dre/JJ comparisons would start after last night's game. To compare Dawkins to JJ is ridiculous. I'll take all comers that number 20 will not be hanging from the rafters anytime soon.

On another note, Dawkins did have an excellent shooting night. Curry and Kelly also had very good games. After not missing a shot all night though I thought I saw Kelly wide open near or past the 3-point line on numerous occasions but no one was looking for him. Odd.

Also, IMHO, Miles has hands of stone. How many loose balls and rebounds did he fumble and lose. He should get some lessons from Brian Z. When Zoubek grabbed a ball he made it his.

Lastly, Austin has a lot of learning and maturing to do. He doesn't share the ball and frequently charges the basket in the belief that his considerable skills are going to overcome running into 3 defenders near the basket.

I may be dead wrong on all of the above.

Congrats Coach.

[duke79]

Has Alex Murphy gotten any playing time in the last couple of games? I don't recall seeing him on the floor against Mich St or Belmont? Is he injured or just doesn't fit into the playing rotation at this point in time. I wonder if that will change. If he is going to sit on the bench mostly, I wonder if maybe he should red shirt or perhaps have stayed in high school for his final year. Just a thought. I realize there is value to being on the team and practicing with the team but I have to believe the goal of most of the players is to PLAY in games.

[DukieInBrasil]

One other thing we are so used to that we sometimes forget to mention
3-point shooting is a real strong point for this team
10-21 as a team is outstanding
How many other teams have the depth of outside shooters we have with Andre, Seth, Ryan Kelly, and Austin Rivers?
Not to mention that both TT and QC are shooting 50% so far, only 4-8 combined, but still, they both have the potential to be at least worthy of defending beyond the arc. Neither Murphy nor Gbinije (1-1) have shot enough 3s to be known quantities yet, but are supposedly both capable of making defenders go out beyond the arc with them.
Your point is good though, we have lots of 3pt shooter, and several excellent ones. As a team we are one made 3 short of 50% through 3 games. That's awesome.

[Native]

Has Alex Murphy gotten any playing time in the last couple of games? I don't recall seeing him on the floor against Mich St or Belmont? Is he injured or just doesn't fit into the playing rotation at this point in time. I wonder if that will change. If he is going to sit on the bench mostly, I wonder if maybe he should red shirt or perhaps have stayed in high school for his final year. Just a thought. I realize there is value to being on the team and practicing with the team but I have to believe the goal of most of the players is to PLAY in games.

He is out with a mild head injury (http://heraldsun.com/bookmark/16421622-Head-injury-sidelines-Duke’s-Murphy). Word around campus is he had a pretty tough collision with Miles in a practice and is slightly concussed. Should be fine.

[DukieInBrasil]

Has Alex Murphy gotten any playing time in the last couple of games? I don't recall seeing him on the floor against Mich St or Belmont? Is he injured or just doesn't fit into the playing rotation at this point in time. I wonder if that will change. If he is going to sit on the bench mostly, I wonder if maybe he should red shirt or perhaps have stayed in high school for his final year. Just a thought. I realize there is value to being on the team and practicing with the team but I have to believe the goal of most of the players is to PLAY in games.

Alex didn't play the first 2 games due to a concussion, or something to that effect. He was only cleared to practice on Monday,so it shouldn't be a great surprise he didn't see game time vs MSU.
I highly doubt that he'll continue to be stuck to the bench.

[feldspar]

This really bothers me too. I understand the need to go to the monitor to make sure that you get things right in a big fracas situation. However, if MSU's Thornton hadn't whined about the little shove that he got from Mason I don't think the refs would have gone to the monitor. The Nix shove to Andre on the FT was even more ticky-tack. If we go the monitor you can find contact like these two examples on probably 50% of all plays. Overuse of the monitor really disrupts the flow of the game. The announcers hinted at Mason's "shove" being an issue because it was a dead ball. Nix's shove was after a made FT. Is this a dead ball situation? The Nix knee to Tyler's head was happening just as a foul was being called and I guess wasn't actually a dead ball. Is this the difference?
Is it the possibility of an elbow being thrown? I know they can go to the monitor for this. Mason's and Nix's shoves could have possibly been elbows so that would make sense but neither of them were actually elbows yet fouls were still called. I know that there are some former refs that post on here. Do any of you have any clarification?


Let me try to tackle this. I think first and foremost, it's not a cut and dry issue, and second, you have to for a moment look at the situation not as a Duke fan, but put yourself in the shoes of the officials.

The officials new this was going to be a physical game from the get-go. We all knew it, and I'm sure they talked in their pre-game about working to minimize the physicality by calling fouls on post-ups, reach arounds, etc, which the did starting pretty early on.

Now fast forward to the Mason Plumlee incident. Little, chippy things like what Mason did are what you're taught to look for when you're trying to keep two teams for going after each others' throats. Those little things add up, and before you know it, if it's not controlled, bad things start happening.

Ok, so Mason goes up for a layup after the whistle is blown. Thornton goes up in a faux defense, for whatever reason. Mason swats at him with his arm. In that moment, it doesn't seem as if any of the officials directly saw exactly what happened. In that moment, they have to ask themselves, "Did Plumlee touch the MSU player? Did he throw an elbow?" It's obvious none of them knew for sure. What is obvious is that they saw "something," but they didn't know what that something was.

Per NCAA rules, if there is a belief that a player MAY have thrown an elbow, the officials are empowered to go to the monitor. If the officials even have an inkling that an elbow or punch might have been thrown, believe you me that this year, they're going to the monitor. Why? Because it's a point of emphasis this year, and they're being judged on every time they do or don't.

So, you've got a group of three officials who, while yes they're trying to do their best to avoid the physicality of the game getting out of control, they're also well aware that they're getting graded on this type of situation. So they go to the monitor.

They do so, and in the process, figure out that no elbow or punch was thrown, but Mason did contact Thornton with his hand/arm. According to the replay rule, if, during the course of looking for a flagrant, you discover a contact dead ball technical foul, you are required to penalize it. Which is what they did.

Everything the officials did with that situation was completely within protocol, and exactly as the rule book says.

So what makes that different than the other situations you bring up? It has nothing to do with whether plays are ticky-tack or not. It has everything to do with whether the officials believe a flagrant foul (such as an elbow or punch) has occurred. So, if a player gets shoved, you're not going to see officials go to the monitor (unless it's an absolutely outrageous shove, like into press row or something that could warrant a flagrant). The other situations you cite (the shove and the knee) occurred during live ball situations. Even so, you can't go to the monitor for a common shove. The knee?? I'm convinced none of the officials saw what we saw on the replay, or they would have gone to the monitor to determine if it was flagrant. And if they had reviewed it, I have no doubt Nix would have received a flagrant and been gone from the game.

[slower]

Also, IMHO, Miles has hands of stone. How many loose balls and rebounds did he fumble and lose. He should get some lessons from Brian Z. When Zoubek grabbed a ball he made it his
.

So here's the thing. It's not necessarily that they have bad hands, although the size and strength of their hands may play a role (note the large number of missed dunks). To me, it's more of a lack of awareness of defenders in their area. I can't count the number of times they have the ball stripped by defenders coming from behind when they are either pulling down a defensive rebound or holding the ball near the top of the key. And, of course, when they put the ball on the floor. They need to be taught (and in fairness, the team as a whole needs to focus more on) to VALUE EVERY POSSESSION, to ASSUME that every time they have the ball, somebody will, indeed, try to strip it from their hands. Those lost possessions could very well be a game-deciding factor at some point. And somebody needs to show Austin video of Demarcus and Gerald's ill-conceived drives to the basket, although I believe he'll correct his early tendency. It struck me last night, after Mason made his great pass to Ryan, how similar the process is, at times, to a quarterback going through his downfield reads. I think Austin will develop that skill of making his reads.

Edit: I agree with Feldspar's post above that MSU's Thornton initiated the incident with Mason by playing "After the whistle" defense, by channeling his inner Garnett (the single most loathesome NBA player since Laimbeer).

[feldspar]

Edit: I agree with Feldspar's post above that MSU's Thornton initiated the incident with Mason by playing "After the whistle" defense, by channeling his inner Garnett (ugh).

Which wouldn't have happened if Mason hadn't played "after the whistle" offense. I know it happens all the time, and I understand what you're getting at, but I'm just saying Mason put himself in a position to be annoyed and retaliate, which he did. Just hand the ball to the official and move on, and that play never happens.

[g-money]

Really? Which ones would JJ have missed?

GREAT game for Dre. But until he consistently shows JJ's mental toughness, ability to create shots from anywhere on the court, physical conditioning and killer instinct, it would be nice for people to stop forcing these Dre/JJ comparisons.

Way to cut and paste one line from my post and proceed to blow it out of proportion. I wrote a single sentence saying that even Redick would have missed some of the contested 3's that Andre hit last night, then you extended the comparison to other aspects of Redick's game and accused me of forcing Redick/Dawkins comparisons. That junk might have worked on your HS debate team but it won't fly here, son.

[Saratoga2]

So here's the thing. It's not necessarily that they have bad hands, although the size and strength of their hands may play a role (note the large number of missed dunks). To me, it's more of a lack of awareness of defenders in their area. I can't count the number of times they have the ball stripped by defenders coming from behind when they are either pulling down a defensive rebound or holding the ball near the top of the key. And, of course, when they put the ball on the floor. They need to be taught (and in fairness, the team as a whole needs to focus more on) to VALUE EVERY POSSESSION, to ASSUME that every time they have the ball, somebody will, indeed, try to strip it from their hands. Those lost possessions could very well be a game-deciding factor at some point. And somebody needs to show Austin video of Demarcus and Gerald's ill-conceived drives to the basket, although I believe he'll correct his early tendency. It struck me last night, after Mason made his great pass to Ryan, how similar the process is, at times, to a quarterback going through his downfield reads. I think Austin will develop that skill of making his reads.

Edit: I agree with Feldspar's post above that MSU's Thornton initiated the incident with Mason by playing "After the whistle" defense, by channeling his inner Garnett (the single most loathesome NBA player since Laimbeer).

To me, Mason's awareness and control of the ball is superior to that of hiis brother. Miles just hasn't shown improvement, whereas Mason is close to breaking out into a reliable and gifted big man. Mason can pass and is solid defensively at times. He is a little weak in his footwork around the basket with happy feet resulting in turnovers. He seems not to get the fact that he traveled when he obviously has done so.

Miles just doesn't seem to know what to do with the ball when he does get it. He gets puts the ball on the floor or brings it down and gets stripped. He can't seem to make the little chippies around the basket. Almost like he has a panic attack when he gets the ball. I just don't see the improvement I would have expected from such a good athlete.

Saying this, both brothers try very hard and are team players.

[brumby041]

Let me try to tackle this. I think first and foremost, it's not a cut and dry issue, and second, you have to for a moment look at the situation not as a Duke fan, but put yourself in the shoes of the officials.

The officials new this was going to be a physical game from the get-go. We all knew it, and I'm sure they talked in their pre-game about working to minimize the physicality by calling fouls on post-ups, reach arounds, etc, which the did starting pretty early on.

Now fast forward to the Mason Plumlee incident. Little, chippy things like what Mason did are what you're taught to look for when you're trying to keep two teams for going after each others' throats. Those little things add up, and before you know it, if it's not controlled, bad things start happening.

Ok, so Mason goes up for a layup after the whistle is blown. Thornton goes up in a faux defense, for whatever reason. Mason swats at him with his arm. In that moment, it doesn't seem as if any of the officials directly saw exactly what happened. In that moment, they have to ask themselves, "Did Plumlee touch the MSU player? Did he throw an elbow?" It's obvious none of them knew for sure. What is obvious is that they saw "something," but they didn't know what that something was.

Per NCAA rules, if there is a belief that a player MAY have thrown an elbow, the officials are empowered to go to the monitor. If the officials even have an inkling that an elbow or punch might have been thrown, believe you me that this year, they're going to the monitor. Why? Because it's a point of emphasis this year, and they're being judged on every time they do or don't.

So, you've got a group of three officials who, while yes they're trying to do their best to avoid the physicality of the game getting out of control, they're also well aware that they're getting graded on this type of situation. So they go to the monitor.

They do so, and in the process, figure out that no elbow or punch was thrown, but Mason did contact Thornton with his hand/arm. According to the replay rule, if, during the course of looking for a flagrant, you discover a contact dead ball technical foul, you are required to penalize it. Which is what they did.

Everything the officials did with that situation was completely within protocol, and exactly as the rule book says.

So what makes that different than the other situations you bring up? It has nothing to do with whether plays are ticky-tack or not. It has everything to do with whether the officials believe a flagrant foul (such as an elbow or punch) has occurred. So, if a player gets shoved, you're not going to see officials go to the monitor (unless it's an absolutely outrageous shove, like into press row or something that could warrant a flagrant). The other situations you cite (the shove and the knee) occurred during live ball situations. Even so, you can't go to the monitor for a common shove. The knee?? I'm convinced none of the officials saw what we saw on the replay, or they would have gone to the monitor to determine if it was flagrant. And if they had reviewed it, I have no doubt Nix would have received a flagrant and been gone from the game.

Excellent explanation.

Thanks!

-Brumby

[Troublemaker]

To me, Mason's awareness and control of the ball is superior to that of hiis brother. Miles just hasn't shown improvement, whereas Mason is close to breaking out into a reliable and gifted big man. Mason can pass and is solid defensively at times.

I agree - can't lump Mason and Miles together for poor hands. Mason has good hands and good court vision and awareness; you can actually run offense through him without worry that he'll be a black hole or a turnover machine. On one possession against MSU, there was a routine pass he made from the lane out to the corner in which he palmed the ball with one hand and pitched it out to the shooter, but it's a pass that Miles can't make with his smaller hands. When Mason goes up for a rebound, he has much cleaner snatches than his brother as well and he's less apt to fumble interior passes. I just really have no complaints about Mason's hands and believe they are actually a good to great set of hands.

[Newton_14]

No time to read the thread....sorry in advance if I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

My first look at Duke this season besides one of those not too informative exhibitions...

I thought Duke was...gritty... against a strong MSU team. MSU always plays tough, and Duke played tough too. Coach K's teams rarely back down and this team showed some heart on a big night for K. He'd probably have a hundred fewer wins if he didn't get his teams to play that tough all the time. Coach K is a great coach and anybody who says otherwise is not paying attention.

All that said, I didn't think the Duke team played very well in this one. The positive for you guys is is the old story that good teams "win ugly".

To be a master of the obvious, Dawkins shot it well, very well and was active on D. Shooting like that will bail a team out when they are not playing anywhere near their best, and I thought that was what happened. That and MSU pretty much stunk it up, especially Nix, to start the second half, missing everything and getting caught pouting. Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away. There will be more nights when they don't fall that well than those when they do.

Kelly was solid, Curry was OK...everybody else played sub par. Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Austin is finding out his ultra-quick first step is only the start of a play. He's got to learn to finish better, whether its at the rack or with a pass. Way too much talent to not become a success, but he's got to commit to getting under control in all aspects of the game.

I was also surprised that Dukes ball handling overall looked so suspect. There were too many times when bigs and wings turned it over on the dribble, or drove into touble and struggled with the handle. That should improve as the season goes along and they get use to playing together against that level of competition.

Still a good win against a good team, and congrats to coach K on an outstanding accomplishment.

Mason makes one mental mistake. He goes up for a lay up messing around after the whistle and Thornton wants to play tough guy and try to block it. Mason shoves him off and the refs overreact. A bad play on Mason's part, but after that the guy was everywhere. Tough defense, nasty pass to Kelly in traffic, blocks, hustle play where he throws it backwards into Green to cause a turnover, challenging shots, drew numerous fouls on all 3 MSU bigs. Those little baby hooks with either hand, and the sky hook with the right hand are dropping for him now and he is getting better game by game. He only had 3 shots where he wasn't fouled, made 1, the 2nd one was goal tending that wasn't called, and the only miss was a reverse layup on the run. The guy had a big impact on the game. Had a grand total of 2 turnovers.

Miles had a bad night mainly due to being too caught up in the moment. First technical in his career that I can recall. Still played good defense in his limited minutes. 5 Rebounds in 14 minutes. The guy was a 3 star recruit who has improved year over year.

So two mental mistakes, and it leads to the nauseating hyperbole that the Plumlee's are horrible and make hundreds of bad plays each game. (Hint: We have no "Plumblee" on the squad. :cool:)

Seth was ok? 20 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 steals, 1 block.

As for the team finding scoring, Andre had 26, Curry 20, Kelly 14, Mason 7. Duke hit 10 three's. The scoring has been balanced all year long with points coming from multiple kids. I expect that will continue. Not a heavy reliance on 3 on the preseason and season. One game does not define the identity of a team. Andre got hot and we fed the hot hand like we should have. He scored in other ways as well. Both he and Seth will hit their fair share of 3's this year as they both are lethal out there. That will force teams to guard and open up the post for the 3 bigs, and driving lanes for Austin.

The only bad thing from last night was not closing out stronger. Fortunately they buried MSU so deep, the poor execution closing out the game only meant the final score did not reflect on the game.

All in all, for a developing team to come out on a highly emotional night, under that kind of pressure, and run MSU out of the gym in the 2nd half, going on a 20-1 run as Sage pointed out, without Austin having a big game offensively, was very good in my opinion. It took a team effort to pull that off and I expect K is very pleased with the efforts of the team last night. 2 regulars had subpar games (Miles/Austin) but the other guys stepped up big time and got it done. Austin will get it going and Miles will play better as well.

[Troublemaker]

Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away

Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.


Actually, I think Coach K is quite happy with Mason (but I agree the technical he got was needless). Overall, Mason has probably been Duke's best player through three games. You saw the weakest of his three offensive performances against MSU but prior to that, he's shown good offensive skill for Duke in the post.

[roywhite]

I agree - can't lump Mason and Miles together for poor hands. Mason has good hands and good court vision and awareness; you can actually run offense through him without worry that he'll be a black hole or a turnover machine. On one possession against MSU, there was a routine pass he made from the lane out to the corner in which he palmed the ball with one hand and pitched it out to the shooter, but it's a pass that Miles can't make with his smaller hands. When Mason goes up for a rebound, he has much cleaner snatches than his brother as well and he's less apt to fumble interior passes. I just really have no complaints about Mason's hands and believe they are actually a good to great set of hands.

Generally agree, though I can remember occasions of Mason getting stripped of rebounds (ACC tourny vs Henson, for example), from what appears to be inattention.

Not sure what to say about this problem in regards to Miles; it doesn't appear in every game, but is a troublesome issue for a senior. Seems to involve nerves or confidence, not just physical aspects.
By the way, Ryan Kelly often does a good job of cradling and protecting rebounds or steals that he gets in traffic.

[Troublemaker]

The deepest Coach K Duke team ever (1997-98) still only went 7 deep in close games by the end of the year. And this was a team that had 10 guys average double-figure minutes over the course of the season, and in tough early games went 8 or 9 deep. Our current team is only going 7 deep in tough early games.

So you may be right, but history suggests otherwise.

I hear you about the history, but I think there's a decent chance we could add an 8th guy to the rotation this year. I'd put the odds at 50/50. It would either be Murphy or Cook (or maybe both!). We do have a need for a big wing in the rotation and by many accounts, Murphy is blessed with a high bball IQ which might allow him to integrate faster into offensive and defensive schemes than your typical freshman. He just has to get healthy first and we'll see how it plays out from there. And with Cook, we may need some extra ball-handling against the press, especially when we're trying to protect the lead at the end of games and it's possible he could help out there in addition to the first-half minutes that he's been getting.

[stixof96]

I am going to hold judgement until Duke plays a team with a really strong and talented big man. I am concerned about how that will turn out right now. Duke is loaded again with perimeter players, but, the inside game is still looking for the next Zubek, in my opinion.

[jimsumner]

I am going to hold judgement until Duke plays a team with a really strong and talented big man. I am concerned about how that will turn out right now. Duke is loaded again with perimeter players, but, the inside game is still looking for the next Zubek, in my opinion.

Well, Sullinger certainly qualifies.

But how many ACC teams have a better 4/5 rotation that Duke. Maybe UNC. I can't think of any others.

[Newton_14]

Actually, I think Coach K is quite happy with Mason (but I agree the technical he got was needless). Overall, Mason has probably been Duke's best player through three games. You saw the weakest of his three offensive performances against MSU but prior to that, he's shown good offensive skill for Duke in the post.

Great post


I hear you about the history, but I think there's a decent chance we could add an 8th guy to the rotation this year. I'd put the odds at 50/50. It would either be Murphy or Cook (or maybe both!). We do have a need for a big wing in the rotation and by many accounts, Murphy is blessed with a high bball IQ which might allow him to integrate faster into offensive and defensive schemes than your typical freshman. He just has to get healthy first and we'll see how it plays out from there. And with Cook, we may need some extra ball-handling against the press, especially when we're trying to protect the lead at the end of games and it's possible he could help out there in addition to the first-half minutes that he's been getting.

I will post more on this in the Phase 1 thread, but I am really hoping at least one of Mike and Alex can play well enough to play some minutes no matter the opponent. I am actually surprised K did not play Mike in the first half last night. Mike had been coming in the game in the first half in all games so far. Like you say, having that big wing as a backup to Andre will help a lot. Plus it has the potential to be a One/Two punch with Mike bringing defense and Murphy bringing offense.

Quinn brings a different dimension as well. If he can improve his defense he can be a threat offensively in transition with both passing and scoring, and then a deep threat as a spot up 3 point shooter.

All 3 can possibly help this team this year in different ways.

[Kedsy]

I hear you about the history, but I think there's a decent chance we could add an 8th guy to the rotation this year. I'd put the odds at 50/50. It would either be Murphy or Cook (or maybe both!). We do have a need for a big wing in the rotation and by many accounts, Murphy is blessed with a high bball IQ which might allow him to integrate faster into offensive and defensive schemes than your typical freshman. He just has to get healthy first and we'll see how it plays out from there. And with Cook, we may need some extra ball-handling against the press, especially when we're trying to protect the lead at the end of games and it's possible he could help out there in addition to the first-half minutes that he's been getting.

I hope you're right. Your reasoning makes sense, and it's certainly possible that both Alex and Quinn could force their way into the rotation.

But as I wrote earlier, due to the amount that Coach K likes to play his starters, if these guys break into the rotation, it may be at the expense of someone else (e.g., if Quinn earns 15 minutes a game that means Tyler might drop out of the rotation, which at the moment is difficult to envision). It would be great if Alex and/or Quinn could earn minutes while everyone else keeps theirs as well, but we'll just have to see if K is willing to embrace fewer minutes for his top four or five guys. Only time will tell.

[DukieTiger]

I hope you're right. Your reasoning makes sense, and it's certainly possible that both Alex and Quinn could force their way into the rotation.

But as I wrote earlier, due to the amount that Coach K likes to play his starters, if these guys break into the rotation, it may be at the expense of someone else (e.g., if Quinn earns 15 minutes a game that means Tyler might drop out of the rotation, which at the moment is difficult to envision). It would be great if Alex and/or Quinn could earn minutes while everyone else keeps theirs as well, but we'll just have to see if K is willing to embrace fewer minutes for his top four or five guys. Only time will tell.

I think it's more likely that guys 8, 9 and maybe 10 in the rotation get minutes here and there throughout the year at the expense of guys 6 and 7- rather than 1-5 in the rotation. That would stand up with what you are saying and with the very real possibility that different matchups will require different lineups throughout the year. Maybe Murph/Mike will get minutes at the expense of Miles in a game, or Quinn will get minutes at the expense of Tyler- in which case we would still only truly go 7 or 8 deep for that game, just that the 7 or 8 will change depending on the situation. I just think that for us to have a solid 7 that is more or less the same every game, the onus is upon those top 7 guys to develop and round out their games. Because right now, as I said before, there is plenty of room for Quinn Cook to come into a game because we need his ball handling; or for Mike/Alex to come into a game because we need their size on the wings (or their quickness at the 4 spot.) The top 7 aren't exactly locked into their roles like they might have been in other years.

[Kedsy]

... in which case we would still only truly go 7 or 8 deep for that game, just that the 7 or 8 will change depending on the situation.

I think it's very possible you are correct. It will be interesting to see if K mixes and matches that way.

[RonFar]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/9924/903-wins-coach-k-and-the-record). This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

[stillcrazie]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/9924/903-wins-coach-k-and-the-record). This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

Wow, that is an amazing amount of Plumlee negativity. Reminds me a bit of the Zoubek negativity pre-January 2010.

[gumbomoop]

It's not necessarily that they have bad hands, although the size and strength of their hands may play a role (note the large number of missed dunks). To me, it's more of a lack of awareness of defenders in their area. I can't count the number of times they have the ball stripped by defenders coming from behind when they are either pulling down a defensive rebound or holding the ball near the top of the key. And, of course, when they put the ball on the floor. They need to be taught (and in fairness, the team as a whole needs to focus more on) to VALUE EVERY POSSESSION, to ASSUME that every time they have the ball, somebody will, indeed, try to strip it from their hands.

Although several posters have disagreed with slower's lumping Mason in with Miles on the hands issue, the essential point made here [slower's tag quote] is correct, IMO.

Some players have very good court sense, some average, some below average. Miles has shown a particular court-awareness-deficit after getting a defensive rebound. As slower notes, he doesn't seem to know, instinctively, where the opponents are, how many have run to get ready to play D, and who might be lurking to knock it out of his hands. His instincts - actually, lack thereof - prohibit him from valuing every possession. I absolutely agree with slower's advice to Miles - Mason, too - to assume a pesky defender is ready to strip the ball. But lacking the instinct, Miles would have to be taught, reminded repeatedly, to do this. I'd guess the coaching staff has tried to teach this, and has not entirely succeeded, to put it kindly.

Ditto for the bane of coaches [not to mention poster-coaches, like slower and you and me], watching bigs mis-use the rhythm dribble, putting the ball on the floor when they should keep it high and go up for a close-in shot. Just want to scream, every time. Bad, bad words.

Ditto for one of my pet peeves, the one-handed, missed, thunder-dunk, which Miles perhaps a bit more than Mason has "perfected." made one-handed thunder-dunks, as it only encourages them.....] I have no idea how K and staff respond to this particular crappy trend, but any missed dunk costs the team 2 valuable points. It looks great when it goes down, but when - way too frequently - it misfires, I mutter unkind thoughts about Miles's decision-making. For me, valuing every possession certainly includes understanding that 2 certain points is preferable - always, no exceptions - to a highlight-reel highlight.

[slower]

Way to cut and paste one line from my post and proceed to blow it out of proportion. I wrote a single sentence saying that even Redick would have missed some of the contested 3's that Andre hit last night, then you extended the comparison to other aspects of Redick's game and accused me of forcing Redick/Dawkins comparisons. That junk might have worked on your HS debate team but it won't fly here, son.

Yo, g-money, keepin' it real!

You said that Dre hit some shots that JJ would have missed. I disagreed. I said that "some" people were fond of making Dre/JJ comparisons. Sorry that you took it personally.

I'm neither a debater nor a playa-hater. Son.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[slower]

Although several posters have disagreed with slower's lumping Mason in with Miles on the hands issue, the essential point made here [slower's tag quote] is correct, IMO.

Some players have very good court sense, some average, some below average. Miles has shown a particular court-awareness-deficit after getting a defensive rebound. As slower notes, he doesn't seem to know, instinctively, where the opponents are, how many have run to get ready to play D, and who might be lurking to knock it out of his hands. His instincts - actually, lack thereof - prohibit him from valuing every possession. I absolutely agree with slower's advice to Miles - Mason, too - to assume a pesky defender is ready to strip the ball. But lacking the instinct, Miles would have to be taught, reminded repeatedly, to do this. I'd guess the coaching staff has tried to teach this, and has not entirely succeeded, to put it kindly.

Ditto for the bane of coaches [not to mention poster-coaches, like slower and you and me], watching bigs mis-use the rhythm dribble, putting the ball on the floor when they should keep it high and go up for a close-in shot. Just want to scream, every time. Bad, bad words.

Ditto for one of my pet peeves, the one-handed, missed, thunder-dunk, which Miles perhaps a bit more than Mason has "perfected." made one-handed thunder-dunks, as it only encourages them.....] I have no idea how K and staff respond to this particular crappy trend, but any missed dunk costs the team 2 valuable points. It looks great when it goes down, but when - way too frequently - it misfires, I mutter unkind thoughts about Miles's decision-making. For me, valuing every possession certainly includes understanding that 2 certain points is preferable - always, no exceptions - to a highlight-reel highlight.

Thanks, Gumbo.

Yes, Mason HAS looked much better than Miles so far. A couple of those passes looked almost Walton/Sabonis-esque! Hope he keeps it up. OSU will obviously be a huge test for our bigs. Cautious optimism (not that we will win, necessarily, but that Mason will acquit himself well).

[slower]

Yo, g-money, keepin' it real!

You said that Dre hit some shots that JJ would have missed. I disagreed. I said that "some" people were fond of making Dre/JJ comparisons. Sorry that you took it personally.

I'm neither a debater nor a playa-hater. Son.

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Dang, g-money, turns out I did NOT say "some" people. So, I see why you got cranky. My bad.

[CDu]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/9924/903-wins-coach-k-and-the-record). This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

Not a great analysis of the actual game, and not a phenomenal piece of literary work either. The guy just seems like a Duke fan who is frustrated with the Plumlees and appears to love Curry, and as such lets those feelings color his judgment. For example, he gives no mention of Curry's series of mistakes down the stretch, which were a bigger part of the comeback than Mason's 5-second violation. Instead, he drooled over Curry's calm demeanor.

I do somewhat agree with his stance about the Plumlee's development. They aren't very fluid in the post, they don't seem to have great court awareness, their rotations (especially Mason's) have frequently been poorly-timed, they do have trouble with their hands, and Miles has had trouble with silly fouls throughout his career (Mason seemed to shake that habit last year). This was perhaps an example of that with Miles, but I don't think it was the case with Mason. I'd hardly have called this the worst performance in a Duke uniform for Mason. 7 points, 5 rebounds, 3 blocks, and an assist in 32 minutes is not great, but it's far from awful. Miles, on the other hand, did have a pretty bad game.

It just seemed like Ryan projected all of his game frustration onto "the Plumlees" and ignored Mason's positive/okay contributions and any negatives from other players.

[superdave]

Saw this one on a different board, where a few were up in arms about the Plumlee negativity. I half agree with that, but getting beyond it I enjoyed reading about Coach K. Story's here (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/9924/903-wins-coach-k-and-the-record). This guy had the Seth Curry Saves Duke blog, which I saw earlier this week is now dead.

I read Shane's article yesterday. He's a good writer and clearly a Duke fan, but I cannot help shake the idea that he does not really know x's and o's. I'm not saying I do, just that I know good basketball knowledge when I see it, and I dont see it with him. I have been very pleased with Mason's play so far. He's busting his arse on D and showing some good post moves. He's going to take off in the next few months.

[CDu]

I read Shane's article yesterday. He's a good writer and clearly a Duke fan, but I cannot help shake the idea that he does not really know x's and o's. I'm not saying I do, just that I know good basketball knowledge when I see it, and I dont see it with him. I have been very pleased with Mason's play so far. He's busting his arse on D and showing some good post moves. He's going to take off in the next few months.

I agree with this, except for maybe the post moves part. I think Mason is still kind of methodical on the block. He does appear more confident, and he does seem to have an improved hook shot. But his post moves still seem pretty limited.

I certainly agree on Ryan's bball analysis skills.

[davekay1971]

My take on some of the negatives mentioned in this thread:

1) Plumlee Problems: I'm not at all worried about Mason. He's shown a big jump in productivity and reliability between last year and this year. And his free throws looked, for the most part, MUCH improved against MSU. Mason is a great rebounder...not just a good rebounder, a great one. His defensive presence in the lane is very much improved. His offensive game is improving, though he's not there yet. Miles, I am worried about. That technical was just dumb. He's a senior, he's a captain, and that was a freshman move. Which, I think, sums up the struggles Miles has - he's a physical beast with a tendency to make a bunch of mental errors. I hope he can make a Zoubekian transition, but I don't think there's really a comparison to the problems that need to be overcome. Zoubs was held back by injuries, and his senior season was his first truly healthy season at Duke. His head was never the problem, except maybe that he was overly tentative. Miles has had a healthy body and plenty of opportunity, but he's seems to always be in 2 steps forward, 2 steps back mode, and the 2 steps back always come from an error above the pons. I hope he makes a great leap in his consistency this year, I really do, but I fear he may find himself being the 3rd guy in our big-guy rotation if RK and Mason continue to perform at a higher level, more consistently, than Miles.

2) End of game: I'm not at all worried about this. We weren't good, of course, in end game, but that's ok. It's early season, we were playing a good opponent that plays with the same kind of heart and intensity that we do, and they played with better focus and intensity than did our guys. It was a good learning experience for us. We've got a talented backcourt, but it's still Seth early in the transition from off guard to point, Tyler with limited minutes in end-game situations, Cook with no experience in end-game situations, Dawk who's NOT a great ballhandler (but, boy, what a shot), etc. These guys needed a nasty experience trying to protect a lead against a good, determined, well-coached team the same way they needed a close game against Belmont. If they blow a big lead this way in February, then I'll be worried.

[hq2]

I do somewhat agree with his stance about the Plumlee's development. They aren't very fluid in the post, they don't seem to have great court awareness, their rotations (especially Mason's) have frequently been poorly-timed, they do have trouble with their hands, and Miles has had trouble with silly fouls throughout his career (Mason seemed to shake that habit last year). This was perhaps an example of that with Miles, but I don't think it was the case with Mason. I'd hardly have called this the worst performance in a Duke uniform for Mason. 7 points, 5 rebounds, 3 blocks, and an assist in 32 minutes is not great, but it's far from awful. Miles, on the other hand, did have a pretty bad game.

Yeah, I think that what's happened with the Plumlees is that since they are now junior-senior, people have concluded that they simply
aren't going to get any better, or at least not much better while they're at Duke. Both have had 2-3 years to work on their games after
growing into their height (Ryan is still getting better in that area), and it just hasn't happened. Neither has developed a reliable post game
in any form. What we get is an occasional tease; a jump hook here, a nice pass there, that shows some ability and lets us think they'll improve. But, after that, we get travels, missed shots, fouls, snuffs, and whatever, and it got to the point in the second half of the MSU game where it became clear that the thing to do was just get the ball to Seth and Andre and let them shoot it.

I think we're almost at the point where we should just do things like two years ago with Lance and Zoubs. Let Austin, Seth, 'dre and Kelly do the scoring, and let the Plumlees rebound, score garbage buckets, and play D. Hey, we won a national championship like that 2 years ago!

[feldspar]

Put me in the camp of not understanding all the Plumlee hand wringing. Has Miles been unspectacular at times this year? Sure, but it's early. And he has also had flashes of being really good.

You know what Lance Thomas' stats were on the third game of the season in 2010? 1 point, 1 rebound and 4 fouls in 16 minutes of play. My point? it's early, and while Miles is a senior, he's still learning.

Despite some obvious mental miscues, I thought Mason was fine against Michigan State. Not great, but fine. I'm incredibly encouraged by his developing hook shot, but more encouraged by his confidence in taking it. He's only going to get better as the season goes on.

We'll learn a lot about what these two can do against Ohio State. And if we're still having discussions like this come mid-January, then I'll start to worry. But just a bit.

[Kedsy]

If they blow a big lead this way in February, then I'll be worried.

Minor quibble: the team did NOT "blow a big lead" against Michigan State (nor against Belmont). Because they won.

Winning by 20 doesn't count more than winning by 5. Letting a lead slip but holding on is not blowing a lead.

(Not singling you out in particular. Many posters have made similar comments.)

[roywhite]

Minor quibble: the team did NOT "blow a big lead" against Michigan State (nor against Belmont). Because they won.

Winning by 20 doesn't count more than winning by 5. Letting a lead slip but holding on is not blowing a lead.

(Not singling you out in particular. Many posters have made similar comments.)

Yeah, there are a number of elements involved in successfully closing out a game when playing with a decent sized lead.
One is having a dominant ball handler who controls the action, milks the clock, and works for a good shot by someone....we may not have such a person this year
Other factors are good foul shooting, a reliable inbounding option, good overall ball handling including a big man who can handle, good coaching, and practice
We have most of the elements now or potentially, and can certainly improve.

To put some perspective on this, 3 games into the season we have twice had large leads against good teams, lost portions of the lead and won the games
If this is our biggest failing at this point, that's a a good thing overall.

[PADukeMom]

I took zero negatives from the game. It was a BIG game played in the biggest sports forum by a young team. Sure there are things that need improvement but the guy who just won 903 can help with that process.

I had a fantastic experience at MSG watching sports history being made. Had a great pregame dinner at Stout & met some great gentlemen who came in from Hawaii to see the game. We were surrounded by Kentucky fans who were nothing but gracious to me even when I joked around with them. They all congratulated my son & I on 903 & cheered for K.

[pfrduke]

Yeah, there are a number of elements involved in successfully closing out a game when playing with a decent sized lead.
One is having a dominant ball handler who controls the action, milks the clock, and works for a good shot by someone....we may not have such a person this year
Other factors are good foul shooting, a reliable inbounding option, good overall ball handling including a big man who can handle, good coaching, and practice
We have most of the elements now or potentially, and can certainly improve.

To put some perspective on this, 3 games into the season we have twice had large leads against good teams, lost portions of the lead and won the games
If this is our biggest failing at this point, that's a a good thing overall.

This may be implicit in your post, but one other element (perhaps the most important element) is getting big leads in the first place. Being up 20 on a team is itself part of closing the game out. It's a lot easier to deal with miscues and mistakes when you start from a 20-point cushion than from a 5-point one.

[oldnavy]

No time to read the thread....sorry in advance if I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

My first look at Duke this season besides one of those not too informative exhibitions...

I thought Duke was...gritty... against a strong MSU team. MSU always plays tough, and Duke played tough too. Coach K's teams rarely back down and this team showed some heart on a big night for K. He'd probably have a hundred fewer wins if he didn't get his teams to play that tough all the time. Coach K is a great coach and anybody who says otherwise is not paying attention.

All that said, I didn't think the Duke team played very well in this one. The positive for you guys is is the old story that good teams "win ugly".

To be a master of the obvious, Dawkins shot it well, very well and was active on D. Shooting like that will bail a team out when they are not playing anywhere near their best, and I thought that was what happened. That and MSU pretty much stunk it up, especially Nix, to start the second half, missing everything and getting caught pouting. Duke cannot depend on that hot shooting too much this season, they better develope something, anything, inside to go with the bombs away. There will be more nights when they don't fall that well than those when they do.

Kelly was solid, Curry was OK...everybody else played sub par. Somebody needs to give a Plumblee a basketball IQ pill. Take two and call us in the morning. All that talent and still making the same dumb mistakes 3 and 4 years later, it's got to drive coach K crazy.

Austin is finding out his ultra-quick first step is only the start of a play. He's got to learn to finish better, whether its at the rack or with a pass. Way too much talent to not become a success, but he's got to commit to getting under control in all aspects of the game.

I was also surprised that Dukes ball handling overall looked so suspect. There were too many times when bigs and wings turned it over on the dribble, or drove into touble and struggled with the handle. That should improve as the season goes along and they get use to playing together against that level of competition.

Still a good win against a good team, and congrats to coach K on an outstanding accomplishment.

Maybe, but you will never hear him say it.

[MChambers]

Maybe, but you will never hear him say it.

Are you drawing a contrast with any other coaches? Rhetorical question -- no need to respond.

[oldnavy]

Are you drawing a contrast with any other coaches? Rhetorical question -- no need to respond.

Why, whatever would give you that idea??? :rolleyes:

[devildeac]

Are you drawing a contrast with any other coaches? Rhetorical question -- no need to respond.


Why, whatever would give you that idea??? :rolleyes:

Just hop on (or under) the bus, Gus...

;)

[DevilWearsPrada]

On Wral, now, they are doing a special show on Coach K, and the Journey to 903.

Wral Raleigh nc 7pm.

[g-money]

Dang, g-money, turns out I did NOT say "some" people. So, I see why you got cranky. My bad.

Ha ha, it's all good slower. Sometimes I still get fired up from time to time even though I'm closing in on 40. Cheers.