Sports, scandals, scars and why I am doubting if I can be a fan anymore [Archive]

KenTankerous

11-12-2011, 11:25 AM

My work and family life is very tumultuous. I deal in dangerous situations that are at best anxiety ridden due to the constant possibility of violence, destruction and lawsuits. I found harbor in college sports. There, on the court, pitch, field or yard, turmoil, conflict, rivalry and dispute were settled for no other reason than to build strong bodies, strong resolve and school pride. In no more than 60 minutes, the good guys either won or lost and you moved on. Next play.

And when people would criticize it as corrupt or misplaced emotions, I could point to Penn State or Duke and say, "No. Not there. These are good guys." Well, not anymore.

Between Ky hiring greasy Calipaymi, the NCAA wanting to pay athletes and now the abomination and institutional abuse from Penn State, I feel like a kid who just found out there is no Santa Claus. And I'm having a hard time processing this. Is anyone else lost with me? Do you fear something like this could ever happen at Duke? IS it happening at Duke and they are just too smart to get caught?

I started a new thread because we have a place to debate the nuts and bolts of who knew what when and due process and the court of public opinion presided over by the lynch-media (kudos to the coiner of that one!) . I want to talk about how these things have changed your perception of sports, the institutions that allegedly govern them and how much enjoyment has been sucked from the diversion that is, or used to be, amateur athletics.

Mike Corey

11-12-2011, 11:39 AM

I want to talk about how these things have changed your perception of sports, the institutions that allegedly govern them and how much enjoyment has been sucked from the diversion that is, or used to be, amateur athletics.

I completely understand where you're coming from.

I would suggest, however, that not much has changed in college athletics between this week and last, in the sense that the naughtiness you rightly lament--the continued rise of snake oil salesmen like John Calipari; the misfeasance or nonfeasance at Penn State (only the alleged cover up being a University matter, not the sexual predation); and today's NYTimes story (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/12/us/on-college-campuses-athletes-often-get-off-easy.html?hp) on the parallel judicial system for college athletes--has been present for decades. Is it worse now, or are we just more aware of it now?

My thought would be that though there is a higher quantity of money flowing through college sports now than ever before, the collusion and troubled waters have been distilled a bit over the years. We're just more aware of the troubles that arise because of increases in transparency. That makes it all the more bothersome though, doesn't it? These guys are going to get caught...and yet they still try to keep wrongdoing under wraps.

People speak of corruption in college sports much the same way they talk about corruption in politics. I think that in both instances, things are generally better than they once were, they're just not as good as any of us as fans (or voters) would like them to be.

None of the above solves your quandary. For that, I apologize.

Jim3k

11-12-2011, 03:44 PM

I dunno, Ken. There are levels of misconduct, some of which are arcane and nonsensical, such as the inadvertent recruiting stuff that most schools experience. These are usually self-reported. Duke had one of those with assistant Chris Collins a couple of years ago. Feather on the wrist penalty stuff.

Then there are those involving honest, but serious mistakes, such as Lute Olson's connection to an AAU on-campus tournament. Olson was in the early stages of Alzheimer's, relied on some misinformation, permitted use of his autopen and the the UofA chose to clean house. Still, not really serious as far as venality is concerned. In fact, until then, I don't believe the UofA ever had any unethical issues.

I'm sure that there are many universities out there, both state and private, which run perfectly honorable programs--even those with minor blemishes. Stanford is certainly one without any blemish.

Then there are those which were extremely dirty, were caught and cleaned up. Michigan, Cal and San Francisco come to mind. Sure, it took years for them to reacquire their reputations, but they did it. That doesn't mean the teams have returned to their high status on the field/court afterwards.

Then, there are the line-walkers, Calimari being the most visible. I think the academic progress rules should have a positive effect there.

And, of course, there are the outliers--PSU is the current example. There is no evidence that the Penn State teams themselves were operating crookedly. By that I mean that PSU has not run afoul of the NCAA. Here the university seems to have put its reputation ahead of all other interests and covered up a crime committed by a retiree who had access to the athletics buildings. (I suppose it's possible that that same attitude permitted cover-up/decline to report NCAA violations, but that has not come up.) Oddly, here the teams are reputable, but the university has lost its reputation. PSU's outlier status seems plain.

So I think your concerns are a bit overblown. Sure...any of these schools might be sitting on a bombshell which may never explode; most likely though, there is no bombshell. All of them are at some risk because you always have outsiders whose activities are hard to monitor. A good athletics department makes an effort to keep things clean. It's not easy and when a gambler gets hold of a Tulane or Michigan player, how does one judge the institution? Staff members are less problematical for judging the school. North Carolina's football staff includes an associate head coach wired to a pro agency? That's a school problem. Grade fraud?--the university's reputation takes that one.

For the most part, though, you can be pretty confident that programs are honestly run. Yeah--I've heard coaches say things like, "If you're not cheating, you're not competing," but I think that's just irony speaking. At least I hope so.

rogermortimer

11-12-2011, 05:29 PM

While this Penn State scandal is the worst in my lifetime (although some may argue the Dave Bliss incident at Baylor), the worm turned long ago. Division 1 football (in particular) and Division 1 basketball really are not compatible with the mission of most any educational institution. Football really corrupts, even at schools (like Duke) which follow the rules. It costs a fortune, requires the lowering of academic standards not just for a handful of athletes but for tens of them, and disorders the academic priorities of the school. Think Florida State would have a Family Life or Recreation major without football? Likely not.

Football at a place like Penn State is entertainment for the masses. And it permits alums and followers to relive their youth vicariously - the reason why it attracts so much money. But University of Chicago had it right in the 40's when they gave up big time sports.

Accordingly, as disturbing as the event at PSU is, I long ago gave up any illusions over NCAA revenue sports. The notion that the programs exist for young people is hogwash (although it comes closer at Duke and other places with high grad rates) and even more absurd is that they exist for the development of young people. They are businesses on campus, and their interests often prevail over virtually anything else.

PADukeMom

11-12-2011, 05:33 PM

I feel the exact same way. My heart is broken. If you would have told me last Saturday that JoePa would not be coaching against Nebraska I would have thought you would have to be insane.

I watched the game against Belmont last night with so many mixed emotions. I couldn't watch Penn State today. I haven't missed watching or listening to a Penn State game since 1966. I still remember being that 8 year old little girl with her ear pressed against her AM transistor radio praying that the signal wouldn't be lost before the game ended. Howdo/can I ever get that love back?

In this past month, my Raiders lost Al Davis, my Lions lost JoePa &hopefully on Tuesday K will get the record. I will be at MSG in my DUKE shirt cheering for my team & proud of my coach. I will do so with a broken heart & spirit.

SMO

11-12-2011, 05:40 PM

I feel your pain KenT. For me, sports are less of an escape than they used to be but that's not a bad thing. There's sadness in realizing there are fewer "good guys" in sports than I thought and that much of the system is flawed. Finding other outlets can be refreshing.

SCMatt33

11-12-2011, 06:07 PM

I'm kind of mixed on this. I completely understand that you want to find something pure to go home and enjoy at the end of the day. On the other hand, if the mistakes of some, or even many sully your view of the entertainment you get from watching them, you can end up being completely cynical about life. It's not like there is much out there to get entertainment from that doesn't have a dark side: sports, movies, music, tv. If you really want to enjoy yourself in a pure way, you have to find something that has value to you, but not everyone. Spend time with friends and family, go to a local theater or small time sporting event, be it a niche college sport or a minor league pro sport.

You came here for advice on it because you can rely on open and honest discussion. No one has to pay to access any content, and it is small enough to be intimate, but large enough to be interesting. You can't find that in big time entertainment. If you want to enjoy those things as they are that's great. I tend to separate the on court and off court aspects of basketball and other sports. If I was a UK fan, I frankly wouldn't care about anything people say about Calipari or whether he follows all the rules. Those things don't make the on court experience any less fun to watch. We can sit here and say that it would make the accomplishments less valuable, but really, accomplishments in sports have no intrinsic value to fans. The value to fans is going along for the ride. The trophies and banners are only reminders of how much we enjoyed the ride. For the players and coaches, the value comes from the life experiences gained along the way. The off court stuff doesn't affect that.

If you truly can't or don't want to separate the on court and off court stuff, I respect that and I would hope that you can find something in which you don't have to separate those things, but I personally prefer to enjoy what happens as its happening and worry about the other stuff as separate issues.

throatybeard

11-12-2011, 09:50 PM

Then there are those involving honest, but serious mistakes, such as Lute Olson's connection to an AAU on-campus tournament. Olson was in the early stages of Alzheimer's, relied on some misinformation, permitted use of his autopen and the the UofA chose to clean house.

This is neither here nor there, but the way I heard it, he had a stroke. I hadn't heard the Alzheimer's story. Is that the case?

basket1544

11-12-2011, 10:06 PM

I've also had a difficult week as I remember that our sports heroes are truly human and shouldn't be deified. It really hit home for me when the reporters stood outside of what is called Paterno-ville with tents up in the background telling of the student riots. What would happen in Durham if such a scandal would occur? I can't help but thing, "Could such a thing happen in Durham?" It's such a sick and twisted and horrible thing that has happened to the most innocent of children. I am very glad that Pennsylvania is finally taking it seriously and that the men who let this happen are facing serious consequences. I just have such a hard time thinking that this is the same kindly looking grandfather who sat on stage with Coach K last spring and they talked about their high standards of excellence. How can someone pretend to have morals and allow such a horrible thing go on?
Sorry that this is such a long ramble. I promise I did have a point, but I can't remember it now. Just that we should remember that people are not infallible.

Jim3k

11-12-2011, 10:59 PM

This is neither here nor there, but the way I heard it, he had a stroke. I hadn't heard the Alzheimer's story. Is that the case?

You are right. He had a stroke about 2 years earlier. He also suffered from depression. (http://www.aolnews.com/2008/10/28/lute-olson-suffering-from-depression/) Here is a story about a report from his doctor (http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/mens_basketball/articles/2008/10/28/doctor_former_arizona_coach_lute_olson_had_stroke/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Latest+sports+news), who while denying dementia, nonetheless describes symptoms which, at the very least, seem to qualify as dementia, even if not Alzheimer's:

Over the last few weeks, Knope said he had talked to Olson about retiring because Olson was struggling to handle his workload as preseason practice opened.

"He just couldn't put the pieces together," Knope said. "He couldn't do what he needed to do for the team."

The doctor goes on to say that the stroke did not actually affect his mental acuity, but I think the doctor's statement is, to some extent, internally inconsistent.

COYS

11-12-2011, 11:05 PM

I look at it this way. The "golden age" of any sport is a myth. Baseball never had a golden age. When Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig ruled baseball, they did so in a league that didn't allow black players (and was unfriendly to the few who represented other ethnic or religious minorities). The mounds were too high in the 60's. Betting and organized crime marred the game in the nineteen-teens (and probably before that, too). Steroids are only the most recent scandal in a history of scandals that goes back beyond 1890. College football is hardly any different. Loose recruiting rules, segregation, racism, outright cheating, doping . . . these things have plagued football, basketball, swimming, track and field, skiing, biking, soccer . . . you name it. Humans are imperfect and sports are a human creation. It makes sense that sports will always be imperfect.

But sports are still lots of fun. They are filled with wonderful people who accomplish amazing things and give their fans a lot of fun and entertainment along the way. It is even filled with amazing people who sometimes make mistakes, even horrible mistakes, which is likely the case with JoePa. There are villains, heroes, good guys, bad guys, and everything in between. Just like no one can point to a period in human history and declare that the world was perfect for everyone, we're kidding ourselves if we can look back and say that scandals in sports are a recent phenomenon. It is possible that they get more press now (although it'd be hard to be worse than the 1919 Black Sox scandal in baseball) thanks to modern technology, but they've always been there. The good and the bad have always been side by side. Personally, i still think the good far outweighs the bad as we tend to remember the scandals more than we remember the multitude of examples of the good in sports. I feel for everyone who is a Penn State fan. It is a terrible situation. But Penn State will live on and has the ability to continue to make a positive impact on those who participate in its football program just as it did for many years under JoePa, Sandusky notwithstanding. And as for sports as a whole, they will continue just as they always have, warts and all.

rthomas

11-12-2011, 11:30 PM

Today: Sports, politics, religion, life...

moonpie23

11-13-2011, 12:47 AM

money....

tfl9399

11-13-2011, 01:28 AM

Don't judge what you think you know.

While this Penn State scandal is the worst in my lifetime (although some may argue the Dave Bliss incident at Baylor), the worm turned long ago. Division 1 football (in particular) and Division 1 basketball really are not compatible with the mission of most any educational institution. Football really corrupts, even at schools (like Duke) which follow the rules. It costs a fortune, requires the lowering of academic standards not just for a handful of athletes but for tens of them, and disorders the academic priorities of the school. Think Florida State would have a Family Life or Recreation major without football? Likely not.

Football at a place like Penn State is entertainment for the masses. And it permits alums and followers to relive their youth vicariously - the reason why it attracts so much money. But University of Chicago had it right in the 40's when they gave up big time sports.

Accordingly, as disturbing as the event at PSU is, I long ago gave up any illusions over NCAA revenue sports. The notion that the programs exist for young people is hogwash (although it comes closer at Duke and other places with high grad rates) and even more absurd is that they exist for the development of young people. They are businesses on campus, and their interests often prevail over virtually anything else.

DukieInKansas

11-13-2011, 01:32 AM

It is always hard when we find out that the people or programs we have respected are all too human and have feet of clay. I think there is still many positives in sports. If time permits, take a trip to a small town and see how sports can pull a town together - football on a fall evening, basketball on a winter night, baseball on a warm summer evening. I know you aren't in NC, but next summer take the time to see if there is a Miracle League in your area. Here is a link to the NC Triangle area league: http://www.miracleleaguetriangle.org/miracle/portals/0/video/index.html (Thank you, moonpie23, for the information on this wonderful opportunity. I hope Sam is doing well.) After these horrible aspects come to light, we eventually go back to the watching the sports we love. Unfortunately, we lose some of our ideals from this and are not as shocked when the scandal comes to light.

Ken, I hope that your family life becomes less tumultuous and that you stay safe.

eta - Yes, I realize that I am probably rivaling Ozzie's paradigm of optimism here.

JasonEvans

11-13-2011, 02:04 AM

JStuart

11-13-2011, 08:14 AM

Ken,
Thanks for posting this; I had similar feelings after all the unc stuff, and the utter lack of local outrage. I had thought I was just getting old, or one of few who felt this way. This is precisely why I read this board, and I appreciate all the other comments from Jason, et al.

My work and family life is very tumultuous. I deal in dangerous situations that are at best anxiety ridden due to the constant possibility of violence, destruction and lawsuits. I found harbor in college sports. There, on the court, pitch, field or yard, turmoil, conflict, rivalry and dispute were settled for no other reason than to build strong bodies, strong resolve and school pride. In no more than 60 minutes, the good guys either won or lost and you moved on. Next play.

And when people would criticize it as corrupt or misplaced emotions, I could point to Penn State or Duke and say, "No. Not there. These are good guys." Well, not anymore.

Between Ky hiring greasy Calipaymi, the NCAA wanting to pay athletes and now the abomination and institutional abuse from Penn State, I feel like a kid who just found out there is no Santa Claus. And I'm having a hard time processing this. Is anyone else lost with me? Do you fear something like this could ever happen at Duke? IS it happening at Duke and they are just too smart to get caught?

I started a new thread because we have a place to debate the nuts and bolts of who knew what when and due process and the court of public opinion presided over by the lynch-media (kudos to the coiner of that one!) . I want to talk about how these things have changed your perception of sports, the institutions that allegedly govern them and how much enjoyment has been sucked from the diversion that is, or used to be, amateur athletics.

KenTankerous

11-13-2011, 02:45 PM

Devil in the Blue Dress

11-13-2011, 03:04 PM

Thanks y'all. There is a lot of good perspective in here, as always.

I watched "Remember the Titans" last night. That helped. And then saw this clip from SNL:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/13/even-snls-sata-horrified-by-penn-paterno/#.Tr_6laNdWks.facebook
I share your sense of loss in the revelations of wrongdoing beyond imagination. Learning that someone or something you trusted is anything but trustworthy can shake one to the core. I remember that deep sense of loss and disillusionment in the days that followed Katrina.

It's important to allow time to give some perspective for regrouping and resetting priorities. From deeply disturbing circumstances can come profound understandings which can become a positive force in our lives. I was reminded of this truth while watching the ESPN special on Coach K a little earlier today.

Hang in there. Don't try to read or watch everything about this demoralizing revelation. Stay in touch with your friends, those in person and those on the Internet, and allow yourself time to process and move on in a healthy way.

ChillinDuke

11-13-2011, 03:17 PM

The good and the bad have always been side by side. Personally, i still think the good far outweighs the bad as we tend to remember the scandals more than we remember the multitude of examples of the good in sports.

Excellent post, COYS.

It's important to understand that people tend to remember the bad more than the good. To borrow a poker reference, people have plenty of bad beat stories but are quick to forget when they get the lucky cards. It's human nature.

I find that if I try to consciously give equal consideration to the good things that happen in my life, then the bad things don't seem nearly as heavy. The same goes for sports. It's easy to remember the Miami's, the UNC's, the Penn State's.

How easy it is to forget about Kerri Strug's one-legged vault for gold in '96. Or how bout even the Northern Iowa seniors over Kansas in 2010. The list goes on and on...

Sports has incredible examples of perseverance, strength, and character. There is still (and always will be) good in sports.

- Chillin

ForkFondler

11-13-2011, 10:52 PM

dukebluelemur

11-13-2011, 11:22 PM

Ken,

You forgot to mention the scandal at Miami. That one is a real doozy, if it proves to be true.

You also forgot to mention how traditional rivalries and structures have been torn apart over the past couple months as schools chase the money in this musical chairs game of conference expansion and contraction. I mean, what is the Big East without a few teams from the West Coast... when you say Syracuse, I instantly think - ACC! ... and it should be easy for Texas and TxA&M to forget decades and decades of annual matchups just so A&M can play South Carolina and Vandy instead.

-Jason "if any of this gets you down, Taylor Branch wrote a nice article (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/10/the-shame-of-college-sports/8643/) recently in The Atlantic that should perk you up right away ;)" Evans

Honestly Jason, I respect you as a poster, but I have a bit of a problem lumping this in with the other issues discussed. As a child, my parents, due to work (economic influences) were forced to move our family several times. This obviously uprooted and damaged existing relationships, but I'm not going to call them morally bankrupt for doing so. Even without geographical changes, relationships among people change and evolve, come and go. New relationships form. Institutions are like people in that sense. There is no sacrosanct right or moral imperative attached to one particular grouping or another. Schools have a right to look after their own stability and financial health, and doing so in my mind does not come with any ethical culpability. Lumping this in with actual moral failures like failing to educate or discipline players they have a responsibility for, failing to compete according to the rules they have agreed to compete by, or the abomination at PSU, is wrong.

I can certainly understand it as a reason to be frustrated with sports, but I feel this thread is about more than simple frustration, its about despair and loss of hope, which is sad and I don't think should be diminished with (what I feel are ultimately) more trivial matters.

DukeWarhead

11-14-2011, 01:15 PM

... but I feel this thread is about more than simple frustration, its about despair and loss of hope, which is sad and I don't think should be diminished with (what I feel are ultimately) more trivial matters.

If goings on in the world of college sports brings "despair and loss of hope" to a bunch of folks then I think there's a signifcant lack of perspective and context happening. Earthquakes, wars, disease epidemics - these things bring dispair and loss of hope. (Folks even find hope in these real tradgedies sometimes.)

Disappointments, yes. Anger, yes. But let's not forget that college sports, while extremely popular, are not life and death. Scandals, abhorernt crimes, and things that can make you very upset happen all the time thoughout every corner of this country - in all types of ways. They just don't all end up on ESPN.

Deep breath. Sports are not corrupt - people are. Hate the bad, corrupt people all you want (they deserve it) but don't get it twisted - in the big scheme of things, with all else going on in the world, the bad stuff that happens within the college sports realm is not worth societal dispair and loss of hope. It just aint.

PADukeMom

11-14-2011, 01:42 PM

It's just hard is all. Even though I knew that one day, inevitably, I woudn't see JoePa pacing the sidelines in his "high water" pants. In fact the past few years he has been up in the press box. It's just painful right now. We are all entitled to our feelings. I just hope they don't remove the bronze JoePa staute in front of Beaver Stadium.

Mal

11-14-2011, 02:48 PM

Apologies for the length of the following: I'm more sorting out my own feelings about this topic than providing Kentankerous with any real advice.

I'm sort of with rogermortimer upthread, and have been progressing down that road for some time. The recent incidents at Penn State have not exactly turned me around. And I get angry at myself at times for all the thousands of hours I've wasted on caring about something as trivial as athletic contests to the exclusion of concerts, plays, reading, cooking, being in nature, and everything else to do out there in the world with our precious little time.

There was a good Radiolab a few months ago (http://www.radiolab.org/2011/aug/23/) about games and sports and why otherwise mature, intelligent people continue to be attracted to them despite the risk of emotional overattachment to something generally meaningless. Why do we keep letting the outcomes of contests between total strangers affect our moods and life patterns? My god, they're just games! But at the same time, there are alluring factors that keep us coming back. Watch a full baseball game, and you're pretty much guaranteed to see a situation or event you've never seen before. There's the competition, of course, and all it stands in for, taking evolutionary contest and moving it to something not truly life or death. There's the comforting tribalism to be found in fandom as a substitute for community often lacking in the modern world. There are the good examples set by those who set goals and work really hard to attain them.

But I've been finding the flip side difficult to overlook these days. The fact that to even meaningfully compete in almost any sport, my kids need to start dedicating absurd amounts of time to them at the age of 7. The fact that the football and basketball coaches at large public universities are paid orders of magnitude more than any other public employee in the state. The absurdity of a collegiate athletics governing body trying to pretend that college football and basketball players aren't professionals in all but name - they devote at least half of their waking hours to their sport, in season and not; they're involved in an enterprise that makes many, many millions of dollars annually; they're on television and speaking to the media regularly. The complete regulatory capture of many academic institutions by athletics (and, in the Penn State and Baylor and probably other cases, the terrible human cost that can come with that). The fact that 90% of the name brand American universities are defined in the public by the success or lack thereof of their football and basketball teams, and not at all by academics. The valuation of dozens of professional sports franchises north of half a billion dollars.

I'm torn because I've loved sports my entire life. They've always been and continue to be a major bonding factor within my family. They're a great ice breaker for conversation with most any male I might meet in the world. But I, like Kentankerous, find myself drifting from them in a more permanent way than my usual hiatus-taking for a few weeks when all "my" teams are simultaneously are a downswing, or when I've invested too much in a Duke basketball team and we lose in the tourney. I find myself more drawn to individual sports nowadays, and eschewing the tribalism and some of the absurdity I see in letting a part of my identity be tied to which teams I follow. But I fear that if I drop out entirely, my sons will miss that bond I share with my own dad, as well as be outcast in social settings for not being sports nuts like every other boy in America.

I think at the end of it all for me, I sense that sports may have jumped the shark in our culture. Why is it that ours is the only nation in the world where collegiate athletics are given such outsized importance (or any at all, really)? Why is ours the only culture on the planet in which professional athletics dwarfs all other forms of entertainment? Where it's a big deal for the chief executive of the country to even propose addressing the nation when there's a football game going on? Where one could spend their entire life just consuming sports media, without even bothering to watch (much less, you know, actually play) the games underneath it all?

While the underlying assets of Sport as a general matter remain, the inevitable arms race of professionalism has all but obscured most of that. Winning and making money is more in the forefront than overcoming daily adversity. TV ratings and ad dollars are more important than making the most of your potential and working as a team. Half the channels on my cable system are dedicated to sports now. Professional poker players are making millions of dollars so that we can watch them on television. A long snapper in the NFL makes 10 times the money a teacher does. I find myself falling away from big time sports because I'm recoiling from what it says about our culture generally that they exist in the form in which they exist, I guess.

DukeWarhead

11-14-2011, 03:53 PM

I think at the end of it all for me, I sense that sports may have jumped the shark in our culture. Why is it that ours is the only nation in the world where collegiate athletics are given such outsized importance (or any at all, really)? Why is ours the only culture on the planet in which professional athletics dwarfs all other forms of entertainment?

Have you seen the European soccer leagues?? Have you seen the amount of attention paid to them by fans? I'm just saying - I think viewing the US as the only country guilty of placing too much emphasis on college or professional sports is a bit over the top.
Sure, we Americans love our sports and pay ridiculous amounts of money in the process. This is in no way unique, however. There's plenty of cultures that overdo it when sports are concerned. (Just ask Andres Escobar).

I just don't think this is a specifically American phenomenon.
This, however, is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQsd7y5YbZw

Mal

11-14-2011, 07:28 PM

Have you seen the European soccer leagues?? Have you seen the amount of attention paid to them by fans? I'm just saying - I think viewing the US as the only country guilty of placing too much emphasis on college or professional sports is a bit over the top.
Sure, we Americans love our sports and pay ridiculous amounts of money in the process. This is in no way unique, however. There's plenty of cultures that overdo it when sports are concerned. (Just ask Andres Escobar).

Yeah, I thought of the soccer/futbol counterexample when writing. I just don't think it adds up the way U.S. sports do as a whole. Take the U.K. There's the EPL and its lower divisions, which (no research or numbers to support me, just wild-reared guesstimations) seems to roughly equate with the NFL. And...what else? What's their MLB? Cricket? What's the analogue to the NBA? NHL? College hoops? College basketball? NASCAR's way bigger than F1. We have a professional bowling league, and poker's on television every night in this country.

Some of it's just the size of the United States, I know. We talk a lot about how India and China dwarf us in population, but we're still in the 5 most populous countries in the world (I think), and still have far and away the most expendable cash. There's sufficient economy of scale to support four major professional sports leagues and countless minor ones, and fund every Olympic sport. But that's not a full explanation for why we have three separate ESPN's, plus the Golf Channel, Fox Sports networks all over the place, a couple soccer channels, the Big Ten Network, the pending Longhorn Network, the Tennis Channel, OLN, Versus, and whatever else. Not to mention at least two or three separate radio stations in every single urban market in the country dedicated to nothing except talking about sports. When the EPL season's over and your team's not in the Champions League, what are you watching, or as importantly, attending, in Liverpool? I don't get the sense, from Brits I know, that there's just a migration to the next sport's season the way we have here. That holds for other Europeans and Latin Americans I know, and fits with my experiences traveling. They know their soccer, yes. They don't generally spend an average of three hours a day all year round watching sports and consuming sports media, though. We have (again, guessing) 60 hours a year of NATIONAL television coverage of Little League baseball! We have high school basketball and football tournaments that get regional and national coverage. We have a top-rated television drama about the importance and centrality of high school football to a town in Texas. Fantasy sports? Invented, perfected, and commoditized in the United States. We have professional hockey teams that draw more people to every home game, and charge 2x per ticket more, than the top teams in Russia, in multiple locations where a frozen pond has never occurred since the last Ice Age. We can't abide having the Olympics shown on tape delay in this country.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, no other country has any significant collegiate athletics. Our college athletic system, on the other hand, is a multi-billion dollar enterprise for two separate sports. The University of Texas Athletic Department is something like a $150M/year enterprise. Anecdotally and based on my time in other countries, I'd hazard that college hockey and baseball are bigger money games than most of the secondary professional sports in most European countries.

We're also the most obese country in the world. Which leads me to the general conclusion that we watch too much sports and don't play enough. That's been my personal focus lately. Stop watching and reading about Novak Djokovic, and go hit some tennis balls.

cspan37421

11-14-2011, 07:39 PM

Mal's post #25 really resonates with me ... almost exactly how I feel. Let me add just a couple little things to it.

First, I don't think there's any method we could all agree upon which would help us figure out whether sports or the fandom for it is so out of proportion in out society that it's not worth it anymore, or whether it's detrimental to society as a whole. For some people, a Kerri Strugg or Doug Flutie moment every few years is enough to justify an immensely greater amount of resources spent on forgotten moments, to look past corruption, cheating, scandal, academic fraud. For others, such moments are wonderful but don't justify the situation on balance. Every fan evaluates this pro/con balance implicitly ... and comes to their own conclusion.

Second ... I just thought I'd share a tidbit from a bb game tonight. My son's team, undefeated, played an away game. The stands in this school were effectively all on one side; there was no home/away seating. Without doing a play-by-play, suffice it to say that what we witnessed was a younger version combination of the Duke-Maryland "gone in 54 seconds" game with the Duke-UNC Jeff Capel shot to put it into OT. The crowd got ugly and hostile toward the end of the 4th quarter as the lead slipped away from the home team, which eventually lost. Your correspondent here got to experience a level of hospitality not that dissimilar from JJ's folks at VaTech. I'll just leave it at that.

Folks, this was a middle school game. JV at that! Right now, if you asked me, I'd say yeah, the tail is wagging the dog, and it's hard to believe that on the whole, we have the balance right here. But I surely don't have enough information to make the calculation, and even if I did, as I say, who could agree on a method.

But I fully understand Mal's points regarding how talking sports is the social currency we exchange with friends, family, and co-workers. It's very hard to not participate in that economy and be integrated into the society. But if everyone around you is acting crazy (not in a good way), I don't see why acting crazy with them benefits oneself or society in any measure.

jimsumner

11-14-2011, 09:11 PM

As a physical activity, sports serve to connect the ivory towers to the outside world. Especially when they are worthy of spectators. The life of the mind is insular. Ahh, 1905.

1905 wasn't all that great, either.

The Faustian bargain between academia and the entertainment industry was made a long time ago. We can fine-tune around the edges but it's still a flawed system, one not employed by any other nation.

Perhaps, for good reason.

That may sound cynical. But these seem to be cynical times.

basket1544

11-14-2011, 11:20 PM

With all the scandals and scarring that these sports cause or show, why do we still watch? Why do we still participate and teach our children how to take a charge? Ultimately, on a Saturday afternoon after working hard all week, I want to get together with a group of friends and watch a team in play. I know the sports aren't pure, but watching the quick release of a very good three point shooter or the perfect timing of a well placed ally-oop, I'm able to forget about the "TPS reports" due on my boss' desk Monday. Is that selfish of me? I truly wish the important people in life (teachers, fire fighters, police officers, etc.) were paid the millions instead of those that happen to be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but that's not how capitalism works. There are only a very small percentage of people capable of doing what the average NBA player can do. Therefore, they get paid well for it. How they proceed to live their lives is up to them.

cspan37421

11-15-2011, 06:33 AM

There are only a very small percentage of people capable of doing what the average NBA player can do. Therefore, they get paid well for it.

It's more than just only a very small % of people can do what NBA players do ... it's that WE value it so highly. So that's the crux ... should we reconsider what we value?

btw, loved the TPS reports reference. Don't forget the cover sheet!

PADukeMom

11-15-2011, 09:42 AM

WHY DO I WATCH???

Because Saturdays in the Fall in Pennsylvania means Penn State football.

COYS

11-15-2011, 10:07 AM

Yeah, I thought of the soccer/futbol counterexample when writing. I just don't think it adds up the way U.S. sports do as a whole. Take the U.K. There's the EPL and its lower divisions, which (no research or numbers to support me, just wild-reared guesstimations) seems to roughly equate with the NFL. And...what else? What's their MLB? Cricket? What's the analogue to the NBA? NHL? College hoops? College basketball? NASCAR's way bigger than F1. We have a professional bowling league, and poker's on television every night in this country.

Rugby is big. Cricket is probably a slightly bigger deal in South-Central Asia than in England, but it's still big there. So are tennis and golf. Also, the lower divisions of soccer in Europe basically take the place of collegiate athletics in England. A League 1 team will pack out their stadiums for soccer matches even though they're in the third division and their best players are always a threat to be signed by bigger clubs (NBA draft comparison). You are right about the US being the only country to attach so much importance to collegiate athletics.

The college sports that are big are the sports that developed a more refined collegiate structure before there was a professional structure. College football's importance predates professional football's importance. Same with basketball, or at least both grew in popularity, simultaneously. Baseball, on the other hand, has been played professionally in some capacity since the mid 1800's. The Major Leagues were so entrenched by the time college baseball became organized that it had no hope of competing. This never happened in other countries. Professional soccer is almost as old as baseball in the United States. The other sports followed the soccer model rather than developing amateur leagues. In addition, the different university systems in Europe and elsewhere have not lent themselves to big money athletics. I don't think the United States attachment to sports is unique, even if our specific attachment to college sports is, if that makes sense.

DukeWarhead

11-15-2011, 10:38 AM

I don't think the United States attachment to sports is unique, even if our specific attachment to college sports is, if that makes sense.

Makes sense to me. Alot of European cultures have attachment to local/community club sports teams that we don't see here in the US. So while the collegiate aspect is not there, the attention and attachment certainly are. The fact that we in the US have scores of TV channels devoted specifically to sports is not noteworthy. We also have channels deovted specifically to food, travel, home shopping, etc. Excess is kind of what we do, because we can. I for one don't mind.

toooskies

11-15-2011, 12:10 PM

It's simply natural to enjoy sports. Whether it dates back to animalistic tendencies to establish an "alpha dog", or to succeed at hunting (I'm sure everyone cheered when a successful hunt brought home dinner instead of letting many go starving), or to succeed at war against rival groups (everyone's happy to be alive). Sports is a test of strength and skill, with the legacy of violence removed. Unless you're playing football, which has plenty of violence to go around, of course.

But it's foolish to assume organizations with thousands of individuals are going to be pure, unadulterated competitions. Calipari isn't exactly new to coaching, for instance. And scandal is as much a part of the college game as anything. Woody Hayes and Bear Bryant are two of many coaches who are legends of football, but left the game with impure legacies. Rumors of players being paid on John Wooden's UCLA teams have arisen from time to time, but it isn't as if the NCAA was powerful enough then to investigate them or has an interest in destroying his legacy since.

And if your opinion is that money is corrupting everything, then switch only to non-revenue sports. Because as long as you watch that game on ESPN with everyone else, you are in fact contributing to the revenue, which contributes to the corruption. When you let the cable company raise rates when ESPN goes to them for more cash, you are contributing to the corruption. There are plenty of athletes who are playing "for the right reasons" on the lacrosse teams, running track, or on the swim team, and the only barrier to watching competition is having to follow them in person instead of from your home.

Mal

11-15-2011, 12:45 PM

I think I'm just going to agree to disagree with COYS and Warhead, if that's alright with them. My personal anecdota and time spent visiting (and in one case, living briefly) in European countries don't lead me to the same point on equivalency. Not a major point, in any event: take my general meanderings above and apply to the whole of the industrialized world if you want. I feel we're pretty out of whack on the importance we lend to sports as a general matter. Don't know if it's always been that way, but I suspect it hasn't, at least not to this extent.

Just food for thought: I checked some attendance numbers, and the total attendance last year at all English FA soccer games (Premier League down through English Conference, whatever that is), five levels of over 100 teams, was somewhere in the 30 million range.

Minor league baseball alone in the U.S. outdrew that last year. They play more games, yes, but we're talking about approximately the same amount of teams, and not including the majors while including the EPL. In many communities those minor league baseball teams fill a similar role as the lower division soccer teams do in European towns. Major League Baseball's 32 top level teams, on the other hand, this season drew about 75 million to stadiums. They play a lot of games (because people come, they can do so), and obviously there's 5 times the total potential fan base, but it's 1/3 the teams of English soccer. All told, the average American attended more than 2/3 as many professional baseball games last year as the average Brit did professional soccer matches, and if you just look at the top leagues, the average American went to as many MLB games as the average Brit did EPL games. And that's our second most popular sport up against the updisputed king of the hill by a long shot in the UK. I'm not even touching the U.S. league where it costs $20M+ for a 30 second ad on the championship game's telecast. Or its collegiate minor league, where 44 million people went to a game last year.

Also, for what it's worth: Arena Football, the National Lacrosse League (indoor lax), and the Women's NBA each draw more people per game in attendance than any indoor sports league in the world not based in the U.S. Arena Football (!) has a higher average attendance than both rugby union and rugby league in the UK.

By the way, excellent point, COYS, on the growth of college football and basketball before there was a viable professional league to compete with them and siphon talent off into a truly professional minor league system. It's weird, and perhaps regrettable, that those sports ended up being sponsored by universities before professional commerce got there to co-opt both.

gwlaw99

11-15-2011, 12:52 PM

If you extrapolate all the bad deeds of people to larger groups, you might as well give up on the human race.

dcdevil2009

11-15-2011, 01:22 PM

Just food for thought: I checked some attendance numbers, and the total attendance last year at all English FA soccer games (Premier League down through English Conference, whatever that is), five levels of over 100 teams, was somewhere in the 30 million range.

Minor league baseball alone in the U.S. outdrew that last year. They play more games, yes, but we're talking about approximately the same amount of teams, and not including the majors while including the EPL. In many communities those minor league baseball teams fill a similar role as the lower division soccer teams do in European towns. Major League Baseball's 32 top level teams, on the other hand, this season drew about 75 million to stadiums. They play a lot of games (because people come, they can do so), and obviously there's 5 times the total potential fan base, but it's 1/3 the teams of English soccer. All told, the average American attended more than 2/3 as many professional baseball games last year as the average Brit did professional soccer matches, and if you just look at the top leagues, the average American went to as many MLB games as the average Brit did EPL games. And that's our second most popular sport up against the updisputed king of the hill by a long shot in the UK. I'm not even touching the U.S. league where it costs $20M+ for a 30 second ad on the championship game's telecast. Or its collegiate minor league, where 44 million people went to a game last year.

I hate to nitpick, but I don't think the number of teams matters as much as the number of games. The MLB and NFL have a similar number of teams, but almost 50 million more people attended major league baseball games, but it doesn't mean baseball is more popular. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I think ticket price or average attendance comparisons might still support your point though.

bdeviled11

11-15-2011, 09:25 PM

To me for evil to exist, good has to exist. The universe has a strange way of balancing itself out. And in all honesty after reading what you said, I was almost frantically thinking, how do you counter this. Because frankly you are right. What happened at Penn State is gross, tragic, and disgusting. I can easily see how the state of the world can leave anyone jaded. But then I started to think of the things that lift me up when times are really tough and even when I start to question the way things are in sports or life.

{COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC} And in all honesty I started to turn, and become during the "Fab 5" era, The documentary actually affirmed that. It is perfectly acceptable to dislike, or even hate an opponent, but you have to respect them. While I hate UNC, I respect their history. I hate Tyler H. but I respect his work, and desire. Same goes with Tebow. I just hate the fact that Tebow's personal beliefs take over the story, and not his accomplishments. Because when you get down to it, the guy wins. Personally I think he is a fraud of a QB, but he wins.

But I will leave you with some of things that make me marvel at the pureness of human spirit and sports itself.
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[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZlXWp6vFdE&feature=related" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuoVM9nm42E)

And finally a fictional speech that marries the good and the bad of sports.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4tIrjBDkk