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mkline09
11-01-2011, 05:34 PM
I know it is still early in the week and I hadn't see anything started on Duke-Miami so I figured I'd get the ball rolling. Apologies to anyone else who may have been contemplating starting it.

To me this is a very winnable game but I have to ask what did Duke do to always end up playing a team coming off a bad loss? Florida State now the Hurricanes. Miami certainly isn't the impossing force they once were and if Duke can get there minds right and execute they could put themselves in position to win. Heck they are 1-0 in Miami this year.

I think the major key is can the offense score points. It is so frustrating for us as fans but I'm sure even more for the kids on the team to drive down the field and then just hit a wall. We've talked about the redzone woes ad nauseum and of course the kicking issues but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is the lack of big plays. I remember there being more of those the last few years and I can't remember too many if any from this year.

I've noticed a greater effort to take shots down field when Renfree has enough time. I think Duke can exploit that using Conner Vernon. I wish they'd run more crossing patterns though because that has always seemed to be their bread and butter the last couple years and they've gone away from it. I'd like to see them use more of Cooper Helfet in the redzone too. He has good size and it seems they'd design some plays with Boone or Renfree to try and utilize his skill set down there. Either way I'll be tuned in and watching and hoping they can put it altogether. The last two weeks have been frustrating so it is time to see them break out this week.

OldPhiKap
11-01-2011, 05:45 PM
We have been playing better and just need that break-through victory to get us moving. Go get 'em guys!

CameronBlue
11-01-2011, 06:19 PM
I think the major key is can the offense score points. It is so frustrating for us as fans but I'm sure even more for the kids on the team to drive down the field and then just hit a wall. We've talked about the redzone woes ad nauseum and of course the kicking issues but the one thing that sticks out in my mind is the lack of big plays. I remember there being more of those the last few years and I can't remember too many if any from this year.




Here's another major key, G. A bold key, doesn't lend itself to the lyricism of the virtuoso violin but generally a key suited to full orchestral interpretation (Eine kleine Nachtmusik, The Star Spangled Banner originally, Devo's "Whip It"). More seriously, I think what frustrates me most about Duke this year is the one area that just hasn't been present while Duke has had moments of good play in almost every other area, the pass rush. VT's first TD was a direct result of the fact that their QB had EONS of time, you could compose an Unfinished Symphony in less time. That just has to change. What's even more frustrating is that Duke has steadily improved against the run this season, from which would follow a better pass rush, one would think (uh, simplistically). That Duke held VT to 14 points is astonishing and a testament to all the other things that Duke is doing well on defense to compensate because pass defense starts with the ability to pressure the QB. Duke just doesn't have that ability. The question is how you manufacture a pass rush without compromising other aspects of the defense. I fear that Miami will just go dog-nuts wild on Duke for this one deficiency.

mkline09
11-01-2011, 06:35 PM
Here's another major key, G. A bold key, doesn't lend itself to the lyricism of the virtuoso violin but generally a key suited to full orchestral interpretation (Eine kleine Nachtmusik, The Star Spangled Banner originally, Devo's "Whip It"). More seriously, I think what frustrates me most about Duke this year is the one area that just hasn't been present while Duke has had moments of good play in almost every other area, the pass rush. VT's first TD was a direct result of the fact that their QB had EONS of time, you could compose an Unfinished Symphony in less time. That just has to change. What's even more frustrating is that Duke has steadily improved against the run this season, from which would follow a better pass rush, one would think (uh, simplistically). That Duke held VT to 14 points is astonishing and a testament to all the other things that Duke is doing well on defense to compensate because pass defense starts with the ability to pressure the QB. Duke just doesn't have that ability. The question is how you manufacture a pass rush without compromising other aspects of the defense. I fear that Miami will just go dog-nuts wild on Duke for this one deficiency.

You make some good points and as I was sitting at the VT game my brother was commenting on how Duke never seems to get any rush or blitz. I think there are two major issues. First they are beat to hell on the defensive line. Playing lots of kinds under 100 pecent and a lot of young unproven guys. Now that excuse goes but so far but I suspect that you are correct that if they don't get a lot of pressure they could be in trouble. That being said they are playing a Jacory Harris quarterbacked team so there is a chance he could get all crazy and throw two or three picks. It is risk reward with the blitz especially if you are banged up in the secondary too, which they are. But in the event Miami can score Duke has got to score points of their own and not allow the defense to have to do it all because they are gong to break at some point.

awhom111
11-01-2011, 10:43 PM
I had a two game losing streak on game threads that I started after a win in my first one, so it is good to see someone else start one.

As usual, here are the ACC tv listings for which RSNs will be carrying the game:
http://www.theacc.com/live/2011-acc-football-match-center-duke-at-miami.html

Bob Green
11-04-2011, 09:30 AM
It's time for the offense to get rolling:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/04/2486132/shaky-pass-defense-haunts-hurricanes.html

I expect this to be a high scoring game. Duke needs to jump out to an early lead and force the 'Canes to play from behind. This team has played their hearts out and they are overdue for a victory so it sure would be nice if Lady Luck lined up on our side tomorrow.

devildeac
11-04-2011, 10:09 AM
It's time for the offense to get rolling:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/04/2486132/shaky-pass-defense-haunts-hurricanes.html

I expect this to be a high scoring game. Duke needs to jump out to an early lead and force the 'Canes to play from behind. This team has played their hearts out and they are overdue for a victory so it sure would be nice if Lady Luck lined up on our side tomorrow.

I don't want Lady Luck. I want Touchdown Jesus. With a multitude of appearances. :>))

Lid
11-04-2011, 10:20 AM
Nice article in the N&O today about Miami native Donovan Varner and his path through high school to Duke:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/11/04/1616657/from-miami-streets-to-duke.html.

Makes it even easier to cheer hard for him.

chrishoke
11-04-2011, 11:00 AM
Which Miami team will show up, the one that consecutively beat UNC and GTor the one that lost to Virginia at home?

Bob Green
11-04-2011, 02:45 PM
Here is a nice comment from Miami Coach Al Golden:


“The way Duke is playing right now, they have our attention,” Miami coach Al Golden said. “So it’s going to be quite a challenge for us.”

The whole article is here:

http://www.accsports.com/wires/2011110411445/miami-duke-trying-to-set-up-strong-finishes-.php

Linebacker Sean Spence also speaks out:


"Those days of Duke being a pushover, those days are long gone,"

There has been much discussion on the board in various threads about the offensive struggles this season, particularly in the Red Zone, and with the two QB system. Perhaps, as Duke fans, we should accept that part of the reason our offense has struggled this season is our opponents respect us and are seriously preparing for games against Duke. Where as we might have snuck up on teams in Coach Cutcliffe's first couple of seasons, we are not going to sneak up on a team now or moving forward.

Finally, QB Jacory Harris pays us a compliment as well:


“We’ve got to go 4-0. … And (Duke) is not no easy team. They gave Virginia Tech a run for their money and they’ve been doing good this whole year.”

OldPhiKap
11-04-2011, 05:38 PM
Leave it to a Md Alum to explain it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrIcuRfxGgg





(Edit to be fair, picking on a former Duke student who has done fairly well for herself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ee7QzZwojMk )

chrishoke
11-05-2011, 08:29 AM
Game day. I sure hoped the offense can get untracked today. Target: 30 points to win.

mkline09
11-05-2011, 09:57 AM
Game day. I sure hoped the offense can get untracked today. Target: 30 points to win.

Yep offense needs to find a way to score especially if the defense holds up and forces a few turnovers.

riverside6
11-05-2011, 02:54 PM
You can follow live stats for the Duke/Miami game here...

http://www.scacchoops.com/FB_ViewHDGame.asp?hGame=1562

Stat feed should start at kickoff.

ChrisP
11-05-2011, 03:28 PM
Well, off to a typical Duke FB start - easy first drive by the opponent consisting of few plays for big chunks of yardage that ends in a TD. Then, a three-and-out for our offense with 2 procedure penalties peppered in for good measure. And that's in addition to an inexplicably dumb "sideways" pass to the flat on 3rd down that gained about 3 yards out of the 6 that were needed for the first down. I don't care if that pass to the flat was Renfree's tertiary option, I HATE that play!

ChrisP
11-05-2011, 03:30 PM
Great, Daniels just went down hard. This has the makings of an UGLY game for the devils. Why do I have the feeling that this one will be over after the first quarter?

grossbus
11-05-2011, 03:45 PM
I am so tired of third down passes into the flat resulting in a punt.

Not gonna watch anymore.

arnie
11-05-2011, 03:48 PM
Great, Daniels just went down hard. This has the makings of an UGLY game for the devils. Why do I have the feeling that this one will be over after the first quarter?

Quite a start - two sideways passes on consecutive 3rd down and long (coupled with the infamous bring in the other qb and screw up a down). The defense has nothing left. For the umpteenth time, wait till next year.

PSurprise
11-05-2011, 03:51 PM
Pass to the flat...Take a drink!

PDDuke85
11-05-2011, 03:53 PM
Pass to the flat...Take a drink!

My liver can't take it

DevilsOnMyMind
11-05-2011, 03:53 PM
I have to say I am stunned. I thought for the past two weeks that we lost mostly because of play-calling but the defense played very well (mostly)! The defense is horrible in this game. And really, how angry are the Blue Devils as they said in the opening? I keep hoping and praying that we will put it together and pull out a big win. The defense will never get it together if they have to stay on the field all day. What is WRONG with this offense?

dyedwab
11-05-2011, 04:01 PM
I have to say I am stunned. I thought for the past two weeks that we lost mostly because of play-calling but the defense played very well (mostly)! The defense is horrible in this game. And really, how angry are the Blue Devils as they said in the opening? I keep hoping and praying that we will put it together and pull out a big win. The defense will never get it together if they have to stay on the field all day. What is WRONG with this offense?

This is the first time I've been able to watch any Duke football for extended length of time. I believe those of you who have said that the program is in significantly better shape than it was, say, five years ago.

This game so far shows no evidence of that.

throatybeard
11-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Here's another major key, G. A bold key, doesn't lend itself to the lyricism of the virtuoso violin but generally a key suited to full orchestral interpretation (Eine kleine Nachtmusik, The Star Spangled Banner originally, Devo's "Whip It").

Duke football is more like e-flat minor. I'm thinking about the desolation of Shostakovich's last string quartet here.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-05-2011, 04:05 PM
I have to say I am stunned. I thought for the past two weeks that we lost mostly because of play-calling but the defense played very well (mostly)! The defense is horrible in this game. And really, how angry are the Blue Devils as they said in the opening? I keep hoping and praying that we will put it together and pull out a big win. The defense will never get it together if they have to stay on the field all day. What is WRONG with this offense?
It may be difficult to sort out all the psychological factors, but it is very clear that Miami is playing hard, fast football..... much like State did against Carolina in the 12:30P game.

I was at the VT game last week; I saw how well our defense played. That wasn't a fluke. Miami is playing at a very high level in this game and the margin of error we can handle continues to be very small.

ChrisP
11-05-2011, 04:16 PM
Have to give the offense credit for not hanging their heads there and putting together a nice drive. I really, REALLY want to praise this team and be positive, but, dang...they make it hard sometimes!

I hope maybe this is the start of us coming back in this game to at least make it respectable. Of course, I'd love to storm back and win but, at this point, I'll gladly take respectable.

grossbus
11-05-2011, 04:21 PM
"I'll gladly take respectable."

respectable would be hard to define in a way that could be met.

gotoguy
11-05-2011, 04:35 PM
The first play on the most recent Miami scoring drive to go up 28-3 was the poorest display of football I've seen in sometime. A quick throw out to the sideline to the WR with the Duke CB playing 12 yards off the WR behind the first down line then whiffing on the tackle....embarassing.

ChrisP
11-05-2011, 04:40 PM
We "whiff" on tackles a lot. I wish my knowledge of the game allowed me to understand it better, but I just don't get it. The only thing I can think of is that our defense lacks the speed to get in proper position to tackle and thus we either "whiff" or, if we do make contact, fail to actually tackle the opposing player. Like the sideways passing game and the platooning of QB's this feature of recent Duke Football teams drives me insane in the membrane!!! :mad:

CameronBlue
11-05-2011, 04:57 PM
Duke football is more like e-flat minor. I'm thinking about the desolation of Shostakovich's last string quartet here.

I thought you might have said Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring". Spring Football, the season of Duke's full glory, when hope springs eternal but to end tragically as a sacrifice to the football gods, as proven today.

throatybeard
11-05-2011, 05:10 PM
I thought you might have said Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring". Spring Football, the season of Duke's full glory, when hope springs eternal but to end tragically as a sacrifice to the football gods, as proven today.

Hmm, good call.

Or Janáček's Káťa Kabanová. Things start out with a glimmer of hope, but at the end she drowns in the Volga.

throatybeard
11-05-2011, 05:27 PM
The good news is that I just discovered these unholy proceedings can be viewed in crisp HD on Fox Sports West, instead of through a standard def glass darkly on ESPN GamePlan.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-05-2011, 05:35 PM
The score is disappointing, but I like the way our players are not giving up.

6th Man
11-05-2011, 05:35 PM
We caught Miami at a bad time. Coming off a loss they have played inspired football today. I've been more impressed with their good play than depressed about our bad play.

CameronBlue
11-05-2011, 05:37 PM
Hmm, good call.

Or Janáček's Káťa Kabanová. Things start out with a glimmer of hope, but at the end she drowns in the Volga.

Then there's always Hambone McGee's "Ode To Billy Ray". Ahh, the poignant and tragic lives of those Georgia 'shine runners.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-05-2011, 05:42 PM
We caught Miami at a bad time. Coming off a loss they have played inspired football today. I've been more impressed with their good play than depressed about our bad play.
You're on the money.

PDDuke85
11-05-2011, 05:42 PM
The only surprise on the 4th down play was that the network didn't go to a commercial prior to the snap. Enough already!

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-05-2011, 05:42 PM
Oh my god, enough already with that ridiculous QB package!

ChrisP
11-05-2011, 05:43 PM
And....another promising drive ends in 0 points and lots of frustration for players and fans alike thanks to passes completed BEHIND the line of scrimmage and subbing in for Boone so that everyone and their momma knows what's coming. Mind boggling :mad:

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-05-2011, 05:44 PM
The only surprise on the 4th down play was that the network didn't go to a commercial prior to the snap. Enough already!

Actually the only surprise is that it wasn't a false start. So frustrating.

DownEastDevil
11-05-2011, 05:44 PM
Was there anybody in the stadium that didn't know what was coming. I'm sick of that stupid play. Roper you are killing me!

grossbus
11-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Hello defense. We are bringing in our RUNNING QB on this 4th and short situation. Please don't play him to RUN.

Right. :mad:

CameronBlue
11-05-2011, 05:46 PM
And....another promising drive ends in 0 points and lots of frustration for players and fans alike thanks to passes completed BEHIND the line of scrimmage and subbing in for Boone so that everyone and their momma knows what's coming. Mind boggling :mad:

I might have just reached the tipping point with Cut. That was inexplicable.

grossbus
11-05-2011, 05:48 PM
" passes completed BEHIND the line of scrimmage"


We must lead the country in that stat.

throatybeard
11-05-2011, 05:52 PM
It's not all bad. We just completed a pass well beyond the line of scrimmage.

Unfortunately it was to #36 on Miami.

PDDuke85
11-05-2011, 05:59 PM
There's a new wrinkle

OldPhiKap
11-05-2011, 06:25 PM
Hard
to
watch

Sixthman
11-05-2011, 06:27 PM
Are the coaches unaware that the running quarterback routine is a predicable approach that is resulting in consistent failure?

mkline09
11-05-2011, 06:30 PM
I think the only thing that has hurt me worse than watching/listening to that game today was when I was in high school and got hit squarely in the jewels with an 80 mph fastball. At least for that one pitch I was wearing a cup. Felt like I should have worn one today too. While I won't be spralled out on a field for the next 20 minutes this game was just ridiculous in every way imaginable and painful. Pathetic in every facet, aside from punting. Not sure what to make out of this game just left with an aching feeling. What was that???

Bob Green
11-05-2011, 06:34 PM
Our offense was missing in action once again. This has become a common theme for the season. Prior to the season starting, I posted in various places that our offense would score enough points to pressure our opponents to respond. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Through nine games, we are averaging 21.8 points per game. Last season, through the first nine games, we averaged 27.5 points per game or 5.7 more points than this year. I have to say it is time to make some changes. First, and foremost, the two QB system must go away. And second, we need a new Offensive Coordinator. Kurt Roper is not getting the job done and if we are serious about rebuilding the football program then he must be fired! Or, at a minimum, relieved of the play calling duties.

cspan37421
11-05-2011, 06:38 PM
" passes completed BEHIND the line of scrimmage"


We must lead the country in that stat.

Some say: You have to look beyond the stats, though. We are improving, it's just in ways that cannot be captured by any objective measure.

I say: I hope you're right, because the objective measures don't look very promising.

jv001
11-05-2011, 06:38 PM
Our offense was missing in action once again. This has become a common theme for the season. Prior to the season starting, I posted in various places that our offense would score enough points to pressure our opponents to respond. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Through nine games, we are averaging 21.8 points per game. Last season, through the first nine games, we averaged 27.5 points per game or 5.7 more points than this year. I have to say it is time to make some changes. First, and foremost, the two QB system must go away. And second, we need a new Offensive Coordinator. Kurt Roper is not getting the job done and if we are serious about rebuilding the football program then he must be fired! Or, at a minimum, relieved of the play calling duties.

Gotta agree with you Bob. Our offense causes our defense to be on the field way too long. I know we gave up 49 pts to a decent Miami team, but some of that has to go on the offense. Lack of imagination on offense. GoDuke!

mkline09
11-05-2011, 06:38 PM
Our offense was missing in action once again. This has become a common theme for the season. Prior to the season starting, I posted in various places that our offense would score enough points to pressure our opponents to respond. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Through nine games, we are averaging 21.8 points per game. Last season, through the first nine games, we averaged 27.5 points per game or 5.7 more points than this year. I have to say it is time to make some changes. First, and foremost, the two QB system must go away. And second, we need a new Offensive Coordinator. Kurt Roper is not getting the job done and if we are serious about rebuilding the football program then he must be fired! or, at a minimum, relieved of the play calling duties.

I'm not one to adhere to the knee jerk reaction to a loss but in this case I'm starting to agree with you. The offensive play calling has been suspect most of the season. The two quarterback system has caused more false starts and turnovers than it has points and we just don't look like the same offense that Cutcliffe was running his first three years. I also think some hard looks need to be made on the defensive side of the ball because Duke gets zero pressure and the secondary is routinely getting torched. If some serious improvement isn't made over the last three games, and I'm inclinded to believe that it probably won't, I think some changes need to be made. Love coach Cut and his loyalty to his staff, but the bottom line is make improvements or make changes to improve and we are reaching that point where some changes may need to be made.

cspan37421
11-05-2011, 06:44 PM
And second, we need a new Offensive Coordinator.

David Cutcliffe was supposedly a pretty good OC at one time.

chrishoke
11-05-2011, 06:49 PM
Unfortunately the whole staff will need to be fired, this year or next. Very sad.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-05-2011, 07:14 PM
Unfortunately the whole staff will need to be fired, this year or next. Very sad.
Isn't that what they said at Ole Miss?;)

sagegrouse
11-05-2011, 07:32 PM
Our offense was missing in action once again. This has become a common theme for the season. Prior to the season starting, I posted in various places that our offense would score enough points to pressure our opponents to respond. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Through nine games, we are averaging 21.8 points per game. Last season, through the first nine games, we averaged 27.5 points per game or 5.7 more points than this year. I have to say it is time to make some changes. First, and foremost, the two QB system must go away. And second, we need a new Offensive Coordinator. Kurt Roper is not getting the job done and if we are serious about rebuilding the football program then he must be fired! Or, at a minimum, relieved of the play calling duties.

Sometimes it helps to be 1,000 miles away from the action. The coaches had decided to establish the run against Miami -- a reasonable strategy. But when Miami scored so easily, I was saying to myself here in DC, "We have to get some first downs and give the defense a chance to get its bearings." Nope. We proceeded with our scripted running plays; we had a three-and-out; and Miami drove for another score. Heck, I would have gone for it on fourth down on our first series.

This was also not a good week for the offense to start making dumb penalties that killed nascent drives.

BTW, the defensive holding call in the endzone was total garbage. The zebras looked that they had already decided that Duke couldn't do anything right and was not gonna be reqarded with a positive play.

I give Miami a lot of credit for rebounding from a very poor performance against UVa. It's happened to Duke twice this season (FSU), but you gotta make your own luck.

sagegrouse

arnie
11-05-2011, 08:18 PM
Isn't that what they said at Ole Miss?;)

Big difference between us and Ole Miss - he won games at Ole Miss, but they realized after Manning nothing was in the cupboard. Still surprised they fired him though.

At Duke, he won't be fired, cause we fear the next coach might slap together a couple of 0-12's. Without improved recruiting, 3-9, 4-8 is best we can hope for.

Devil in the Blue Dress
11-05-2011, 08:28 PM
Big difference between us and Ole Miss - he won games at Ole Miss, but they realized after Manning nothing was in the cupboard. Still surprised they fired him though.

At Duke, he won't be fired, cause we fear the next coach might slap together a couple of 0-12's. Without improved recruiting, 3-9, 4-8 is best we can hope for.
The folks at Ole Miss weren't satisfied with the number of wins and wanted Cut to fire some staff members. He refused and was fired on the Friday before he was to visit Michael Oher for the big recruiting visit on Sunday. I made my comment in response to another poster suggesting that the whole staff be fired this year or next year.

heyman25
11-05-2011, 08:36 PM
Our offense was missing in action once again. This has become a common theme for the season. Prior to the season starting, I posted in various places that our offense would score enough points to pressure our opponents to respond. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Through nine games, we are averaging 21.8 points per game. Last season, through the first nine games, we averaged 27.5 points per game or 5.7 more points than this year. I have to say it is time to make some changes. First, and foremost, the two QB system must go away. And second, we need a new Offensive Coordinator. Kurt Roper is not getting the job done and if we are serious about rebuilding the football program then he must be fired! Or, at a minimum, relieved of the play calling duties.

Besides passing sideways the team is heading in that direction no gain and many losses. Losing faith in Cutcliffe. Four years later with better facilities and a losing program.

formerdukeathlete
11-05-2011, 08:47 PM
The folks at Ole Miss weren't satisfied with the number of wins and wanted Cut to fire some staff members. He refused and was fired on the Friday before he was to visit Michael Oher for the big recruiting visit on Sunday. I made my comment in response to another poster suggesting that the whole staff be fired this year or next year.

You just have to look at the progress at Northwestern, Vandy, UVa, Stanford since Cutcliffe was hired, Cutcliffe's weak nonsensical recruiting efforts, Cut's predictable playcalling, the lack of progress in the Duke Program (notwithstanding his having been given lower academic thesholds in recruiting than Northwestern and Stanford), to get close to the conclusion that Cutcliffe is not the right man to bring Duke Football back.

Newton_14
11-05-2011, 09:11 PM
You just have to look at the progress at Northwestern, Vandy, UVa, Stanford since Cutcliffe was hired, Cutcliffe's weak nonsensical recruiting efforts, Cut's predictable playcalling, the lack of progress in the Duke Program (notwithstanding his having been given lower academic thesholds in recruiting than Northwestern and Stanford), to get close to the conclusion that Cutcliffe is not the right man to bring Duke Football back.

As has been noted, oh, about 100 times, the programs at Northwestern, Vandy, UVA, and Stanford were in no where near as bad of shape as the Duke program was 4 years ago when Cutcliffe arrived. It's not even close and I would even call it an apples to oranges comparison. Much worse. The progress at those schools is irrelevant to the progress at Duke. If you thought it would only take 4 years to dig Duke Football out of that quagmire you were sadly mistaken.

Today was a bad day. The team laid an egg against an extremely athletic team on the road. With our current level of talent we are always vulnerable to a blowout if we are not at out best, and college players unfortunately are never at their best for 12 straight weeks. They stumble and have days where they don't execute. Look no further than the UNC/NC State game. On paper UNC is by far the better team yet they were shutout by a mediocre NC State team that Cincy and FSU ran out of the stadium and scored on at will.

Firing Cutcliffe now would be a huge mistake with drastic consequences.

gep
11-05-2011, 09:41 PM
It may be difficult to sort out all the psychological factors, but it is very clear that Miami is playing hard, fast football..... much like State did against Carolina in the 12:30P game.

I was at the VT game last week; I saw how well our defense played. That wasn't a fluke. Miami is playing at a very high level in this game and the margin of error we can handle continues to be very small.

In an attempt to keep this glass half-full... I think that Miami so dominated the game is a credit to the players and coaching staff. Coming in off of a loss, Miami already was focused. But, if they simply over-look Duke (as in previous years), maybe it's a game... but they did not, they were extremely focused, and it wasn't a game. Problem with these kinds of games is that it's Duke that ends up looking very bad, more-so than the opponent playing very well. Gotta give credit to Miami, but total trashing of Duke may not be totally warranted.

uh_no
11-05-2011, 09:42 PM
In an attempt to keep this glass half-full... I think that Miami so dominated the game is a credit to the players and coaching staff. Coming in off of a loss, Miami already was focused. But, if they simply over-look Duke (as in previous years), maybe it's a game... but they did not, they were extremely focused, and it wasn't a game. Problem with these kinds of games is that it's Duke that ends up looking very bad, more-so than the opponent playing very well. Gotta still give credit to Miami, but total trashing of Duke may not be totally warranted.

what irks me is we come off a great well played game, and lay an egg so bad. I was so pumped after last week....and then we get a game like this. as much as we NEED good games like last week, we NEED to not have games like this weeks.

Newton_14
11-05-2011, 09:54 PM
what irks me is we come off a great well played game, and lay an egg so bad. I was so pumped after last week....and then we get a game like this. as much as we NEED good games like last week, we NEED to not have games like this weeks.

That part is disappointing for sure. I thought we played well in the 2nd half of the FSU game, 2nd half of the Wake game, and all of the Vatech game. So 3 weeks in a row of at least one half of good play, and 2 of those games against very strong competition. I was worried about today because of all the athlete's Miami and how bad our offense is right now.

The defense up until today had done their best to keep us in games, but I suppose the weight of that wore them down. We have to fix our offensive issues and the slow starts. We are killing our defense by constantly putting them in a hole early and often.

Bob Green
11-05-2011, 09:59 PM
In an attempt to keep this glass half-full...

Virginia earned bowl eligibility today. Wake Forest is up 17 to 10 on Notre Dame and will be bowl eligible if they hold on and win. Duke is looking at another season with a losing record. I am a glass Half-full guy, but tonight my glass is looking half empty.

duke09hms
11-05-2011, 10:28 PM
Anyone else still think Renfree has a shot at the NFL? All these swing passes can't be entirely the fault of the OC. I strongly doubt they are the primary receiving option on each play, so some of it surely lies on Sean's decision-making and his being over-willing to checkdown.

I miss Thad Lewis.

uh_no
11-05-2011, 10:42 PM
That part is disappointing for sure. I thought we played well in the 2nd half of the FSU game, 2nd half of the Wake game, and all of the Vatech game. So 3 weeks in a row of at least one half of good play, and 2 of those games against very strong competition. I was worried about today because of all the athlete's Miami and how bad our offense is right now.

The defense up until today had done their best to keep us in games, but I suppose the weight of that wore them down. We have to fix our offensive issues and the slow starts. We are killing our defense by constantly putting them in a hole early and often.

I honestly think there needs to be an OC change. It's just not working. We have a very good QB, what I think should be one of the best WR corps in the league, a couple of pretty good running backs, and a very promising season....and we turn out squat week in and week out. We're averaging a shade over 17 points in ACC games, and that's just flat out terrible for an offense that has so many pieces as we have and who has shown in the past the ability to put up points. I'm sure the coaches are doing what they think is right, and I respect that to an extent, but its not working....or i should say, it's working for 17.25 points a game. With our defense, that just isn't going to get the job done (not to rip on the defense, but they can only put up so much fight...and even 17.25 would have won it against vt). I just can't fathom how horrible the offense would be if we didn't have a decent quarterback and very good wide receivers. What worries me about coach cutliffe isn't his dedication or ability to get the job done, but his loyalty to his assistants. I understand wanting to be loyal. But you can't be blind to the fact that that trust could be hurting the team.

So, yes, I am calling for the OC's head (to put it harshly without really meaning to). I'm sure he's a great guy, and he's doing what he thinks is best for duke to win, but its not working, and we haven't seen adaptability or flexibility which might effect a different outcome. Do I think cut is the right guy to be here? Yes, so long as he realizes that sometime if an offense which is effectively a year older goes regresses from year to year, you might have to cut the "loyalty" and make the changes which need to be made.

I've tried to say this in the best way possible, and hope this isn't construed as "bailing" in any way, but its the way I feel.

Greg_Newton
11-05-2011, 10:54 PM
Do I think cut is the right guy to be here? Yes, so long as he realizes that sometime if an offense which is effectively a year older goes regresses from year to year, you might have to cut the "loyalty" and make the changes which need to be made.

I think this is a pretty fair assessment of the situation. We should be supportive and not run Cut out of town just because he didn't resurrect a dead program overnight, but that doesn't mean he should have a carte blanche if we're not making progress.

I think when you take the last two games in a vacuum, they're pretty in line with expectations. We competed with a top 15 team last week and probably should have won, then got blown out today by a team that had the top recruiting class in 2008 and top 15 classes the following two years. We can only expect our guys to overachieve so often against that kind of talent.

A few more winning plays against Richmond, Wake and VT, and the glass looks a lot different. I do think the glass would also look a lot better with a different OC, though...

uh_no
11-05-2011, 11:00 PM
I think when you take the last two games in a vacuum, they're pretty in line with expectations. We competed with a top 15 team last week and probably should have won, then got blown out today by a team that had the top recruiting class in 2008 and top 15 classes the following two years. We can only expect our guys to overachieve so often against that kind of talent.


I just wish we could build off these things. Maybe we do, and you just don't see it on the field. Maybe if we played someone else this week...idk, uva, wake....we could have had a great win. I think the schedule this year hurt us somewhat. It just hurts so much to come off last week thinking so positively and then end up so down after this week (and don't get me wrong, Im sure the team feels the same way).

HOw about I make a deal with the devil....we can get blown out each of the next 2 games if we beat carolina and win the bell....that would be a season saved for me

Jarhead
11-05-2011, 11:07 PM
Duke's football team has a coach who can recruit, teach, and lead a disparate group of student athletes as he tries to resuscitate this program. It is a monumentally difficult task that nobody has been able to do for several decades. I am inclined to allow Coach Cutcliffe the slack he needs, and I am willing to give him a number of years to accomplish the task. Ask me later how many. There will be progress. There has been progress, and we all know it. Sometimes, though, I get hung up on the play calling meme in which the offensive coaching staff, or the head coach, sends in the drive killer package I think of as the Connette/Boone never works package. I know. I have never coached football, and I haven't put on the pads since 1945, but one thing I know. If the opponents know what plays will be run, those plays won't work, so what am I missing here? Why does this happen in every game we play? Is there some strategy that I don't understand? I can wait. I've been waiting a long time.

GDavidson
11-05-2011, 11:27 PM
Duke's football team has a coach who can recruit, teach, and lead a disparate group of student athletes as he tries to resuscitate this program. It is a monumentally difficult task that nobody has been able to do for several decades. I am inclined to allow Coach Cutcliffe the slack he needs, and I am willing to give him a number of years to accomplish the task. Ask me later how many. There will be progress. There has been progress, and we all know it. Sometimes, though, I get hung up on the play calling meme in which the offensive coaching staff, or the head coach, sends in the drive killer package I think of as the Connette/Boone never works package. I know. I have never coached football, and I haven't put on the pads since 1945, but one thing I know. If the opponents know what plays will be run, those plays won't work, so what am I missing here? Why does this happen in every game we play? Is there some strategy that I don't understand? I can wait. I've been waiting a long time.

Lining up your QB in a shotgun formation on 4th and inches is unacceptable. I have been a Duke fan for 45 years so I have given coaches the benefit of the doubt at Duke. I just think in your 4th year at Duke we should be more competitive.

Bob Green
11-06-2011, 12:03 AM
Lining up your QB in a shotgun formation on 4th and inches is unacceptable. I have been a Duke fan for 45 years so I have given coaches the benefit of the doubt at Duke. I just think in your 4th year at Duke we should be more competitive.

It is great to see you posting! There has been a lot of water under the bridge since you, my dad and I made those trips from Fayetteville to Durham starting back in the mid-60s.

Olympic Fan
11-06-2011, 12:59 AM
I am very much a pro-Cutcliffe guy and as anyone who has read my posts know, I'm about the most optimistic Duke football fan in hyperspace. I really do think Cut has brought the program a long way and with a very, VERY young team this year has them on the verge of success.

All that said, allow me to go negative for a moment.

(1) I hate, hate, HATE the Boone package. I hated it when it was the Connette package. Today was just one example -- we got our two TDs today when they allowed Renfree to stay in and throw into the end zone for one TD and to run for the other. As noted above, Boone's first three appearances resulted in (1) a procedure penalty (different cadence is hard for the OL to handle) that essentally killed a drive; (2) a two-yard loss on fourth and one that literally killed a drive; and (3) a fumbled handoff that essentially ended the game. Today was awful, but the Boone package has been stinking up the join and slowing our offensive momentum for most of the season. Yes, it's sometimes productive on short yardage ... but I think lining up in the I and giving Renfree the option to throw or hand off would be even more effective.

(2) I can't believe how unaggressive Duke's playcalling is. Is that the OC? Or is it Cut's fault. Today, Duke ran 10 first-down plays in the first half. The first eight were I-formation handoffs to the tailback right up the middle (for about an average of 2 yards). The last two were shotgun formation handoffs to the tailback right up the middle (which got a little more yardage because there was less than 30 seconds left in the half and Miami was in a prevent defense).

Think about the start of the game. Miami takes the kickoff and scores in five plays (okay, the TD was bogus, but even if they get the call right, they still have second and goal at the two). Down 7-0, Duke gets the ball near the 30 and runs up the middle and throws a short pass for 3rd and one. That brings in Boone and we get the penalty for procedure. Facing third and six, we bring Renfree back in and try to run a swing pass to the tailback. Against Wake, I wasn't sure whether all the short passes were called or were conservative reads by Renfree, but on this occasion, he was looking for his TB as snoon as he came up from center, so I know it was called. The play gains two yards and we punt (after another penalty).

Miami promptly scores and we're down 14-0. On our second possession, it's run, run and another quick swing pass to the tailback. Another punt, another quick TD and we're down 21-0 and the game io essentially over.

Okay, the way Miami's offense was abusing our defense, there probably wasn't a chance to win anyway, but god, it would have been nice to show some fire on offense, some imagination ... SOME AGGRESSIVENESS.

Watching our offense today was like watching Steve Sloan's offense in the '80s.

I still have a lot of hope for Coach Cut and his program, but today was tough to swallow ... tougher than getting beat so bad by Forida State, I would have thought Cut knew that Duke couldn't simply line up and beat a team like Miami by playing it safe and conservative.

chrishoke
11-06-2011, 08:13 AM
Want to feel worse? Old Dominion beat Richmond yesterday by 14! It was their 6th loss in a row.

GDavidson
11-06-2011, 08:18 AM
It is great to see you posting! There has been a lot of water under the bridge since you, my dad and I made those trips from Fayetteville to Durham starting back in the mid-60s.

It has been a long time Bob since the 60`s It is a lot easier drive from Fayetteville to Durham now. I don`t post a lot but I read the boards almost every day. I`m just frustrated with Duke football and I`m too stubborn and loyal to quit being a fan. I just feel like Duke should be able to compete on a higher level.

CameronBornAndBred
11-06-2011, 08:20 AM
You just have to look at the progress at Northwestern, Vandy, UVa, Stanford since Cutcliffe was hired, Cutcliffe's weak nonsensical recruiting efforts, Cut's predictable playcalling, the lack of progress in the Duke Program (notwithstanding his having been given lower academic thesholds in recruiting than Northwestern and Stanford), to get close to the conclusion that Cutcliffe is not the right man to bring Duke Football back.
Without having read the rest of the responses on this thread, I take huge issue with your calling out Cut's recruiting effort. The fact is that with Duke as what he is trying to sell, David Cutcliffe has done a great job of recruiting. We are both faster and bigger than we have been in recent memory. We will NEVER bring in classes stacked with 4 star recruits. But when you look at the next tier of guys available, I have loved the ones he has sold the university on.

fuse
11-06-2011, 09:03 AM
For all the "fire Cut" bandwagon, name even two quality head coaches that would do a better job after Cut that would want the job.
Cutcliffe wants to be here, has a quality staff, and most importantly has changed the expectations of Duke football from being irrelevant to "expecting to win" (results notwithstanding.)

I've thought for the past 2 years we'd be bowling but the Alabama hangover killed us last year and this year has been tough to watch.
I think Cut and his staff deserve another 2-4 years to demonstrate bringing Duke football to a consistent level of competitive in every game, and 5-6/6-5 or better as a season record.

I don't think Duke can win out and be bowl eligible this year and that makes me sad for the seniors who have really put their hearts into making Duke football better.
I think changing coaching staff now sets us back another 4 years and would be a huge mistake.

-g

Wander
11-06-2011, 09:19 AM
For all the "fire Cut" bandwagon, name even two quality head coaches that would do a better job after Cut that would want the job.
Cutcliffe wants to be here, has a quality staff, and most importantly has changed the expectations of Duke football from being irrelevant to "expecting to win" (results notwithstanding.)

I think basically all of us who are following the program agree that Cut needs to keep the job. I don't know of any reasonable person who thinks he should be fired. The program is clearly significantly better than where it was before Cut.

But something needs to change with the playcalling. Is there a single other D1 coach in the country who has this bizarre policy involving a backup quarterback? The Leak/Tebow situation at Florida isn't analogous for reasons I explained in another thread, and I've seen other teams give second-string quarterbacks experience by giving them a series or something, but I've never seen anything this nonsensical and pathetically ineffective before. This package is directly responsible for 14 points in the game, and Miami 42, Duke 21 is a whole lot more respectable considering the talent differential in a road game. The package Boone needs to go. Immediately.

Also, Duke going for an onside kick immediately after halftime has to be the worst kept secret in the ACC - it's worked before, but I assume opponents study enough film to see the pattern. I know this is the type of thing that you love when it works, but the surprise factor is gone.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-06-2011, 09:28 AM
Okay, the way Miami's offense was abusing our defense, there probably wasn't a chance to win anyway, but god, it would have been nice to show some fire on offense, some imagination ... SOME AGGRESSIVENESS.

Agree we need to be more aggressive. But I would amend that slightly to be SMARTLY aggressive. The Boone thing has been stated enough times already. It's neither smart nor aggressive. But I also think about that crucial moment in the game when we scored our second touchdown, had some real momentum on offense, down just 28-14, and we do WHAT? Seriously, we're going to catch Miami off guard with an onside kick? We literally threw the game away right there. Call it aggressive if you want, but I call stupid. It's fine to take some calculated risks - a reverse, a flea flicker on 1st down, whatever. But that was absolutely inane. I know hindsight is 20/20, but really, I cannot believe that call. You've got to have faith that your defense can get it figured out. At least make Miami work for it. But flipping the field on yourself that quickly and at that crucial moment... sorry, I will never understand that.

sagegrouse
11-06-2011, 09:40 AM
You just have to look at the progress at Northwestern, Vandy, UVa, Stanford since Cutcliffe was hired, Cutcliffe's weak nonsensical recruiting efforts, Cut's predictable playcalling, the lack of progress in the Duke Program (notwithstanding his having been given lower academic thesholds in recruiting than Northwestern and Stanford), to get close to the conclusion that Cutcliffe is not the right man to bring Duke Football back.

Here are the records for selected schools, comparing the last four years (Cut's tenure) vs. the four years before that (2004-2007)



Duke
15 30 0.333
4 42 0.087
Northwestern
28 20 0.583
22 25 0.468
Vanderbilt
15 31 0.326
16 30 0.348
Stanford
34 13 0.723
14 32 0.304


Duke has a winning percentage that is FOUR TIMES what is was before.

Northwestern has improved from just below 0.500 to above 0.500.

Vanderbilt is no better than before.

Stanford has had a good run, better than doubling its win percentage.

Now exactly what was your point about other teams improving more than Duke?

sagegrouse

ChillinDuke
11-06-2011, 10:11 AM
I'm as baffled as most of you by the play-calling. But I see a lot of posters simply asking questions such as "Is this the OC's fault? How could Cut possibly still go with the Boone package? Why don't we look downfield and be 'smartly aggressive'?"

Shouldn't we have some of these questions answered at this point in the season? Jim? Mark? Has anyone asked these pointed questions in press conferences and gotten actual, non-PC responses?

I just feel we deserve answers to some of these questions. That doesn't mean ditch Cut (which I wouldn't support) or even the OC (which I would support). But what's the deal with this week-in week-out nonsensical play?

I believe many posters on this board to be very knowlegdeable sports fans, so I find it hard to believe that we are collectively way off base in our analyses.

- Chillin

uh_no
11-06-2011, 10:20 AM
I'm as baffled as most of you by the play-calling. But I see a lot of posters simply asking questions such as "Is this the OC's fault? How could Cut possibly still go with the Boone package? Why don't we look downfield and be 'smartly aggressive'?"

Shouldn't we have some of these questions answered at this point in the season? Jim? Mark? Has anyone asked these pointed questions in press conferences and gotten actual, non-PC responses?

I just feel we deserve answers to some of these questions. That doesn't mean ditch Cut (which I wouldn't support) or even the OC (which I would support). But what's the deal with this week-in week-out nonsensical play?

I believe many posters on this board to be very knowlegdeable sports fans, so I find it hard to believe that we are collectively way off base in our analyses.

- Chillin

We have gotten answers. The answer is "the coaches let the team down today...we're going to turn renfree lose and be more agressive" and then the next week? more of the same. I don't know if the answers are just flat out lies or what.

ChillinDuke
11-06-2011, 10:43 AM
We have gotten answers. The answer is "the coaches let the team down today...we're going to turn renfree lose and be more agressive" and then the next week? more of the same. I don't know if the answers are just flat out lies or what.

Exactly. These are PC answers.

Does anyone close to the team/coaches know what's really behind these decisions that a knowledgeable fanbase can't rationally explain? There haven't been many (if any) counter-points to the questions raised here. (And we usually have plenty of counter-points around these parts.)

- Chillin

mkline09
11-06-2011, 11:04 AM
We have gotten answers. The answer is "the coaches let the team down today...we're going to turn renfree lose and be more agressive" and then the next week? more of the same. I don't know if the answers are just flat out lies or what.

You know I really think Cutcliffe sees what is going on here but I think the man is just such a good guy he perhaps doesn't want to admit to himself, and certainly not to the fan base who (as most fan bases are apt to do complain about coaching) that certain members of his staff aren't getting the job done. He is taking the high road with very routine answers to try and deflect negative attention off his guys (team and coaches alike). Very admirable but I think behind closed doors there may have to be some soul searching done in the off season.

For anyone interested in reading my latest ramblings on Duke-Miami feel free to check out my Good, Bad and Ugly (http://dukesportsblog.com/2011/11/06/duke-miami-the-good-bad-and-ugly.aspx)column over at my blog. Or not if you'd rather keep your breakfast or lunch down.

Wander
11-06-2011, 11:28 AM
Does anyone close to the team/coaches know what's really behind these decisions that a knowledgeable fanbase can't rationally explain? There haven't been many (if any) counter-points to the questions raised here. (And we usually have plenty of counter-points around these parts.)


Jim Sumner posted notes on one of Cutcliffe's press days where he sort of addressed this. If I remember correctly the answer was that he thinks that there's inherent value to playing a backup in case the starter gets hurt or something. I think this is a poor line of thinking to begin with, but even if I agreed with it, it doesn't explain why you make your plays with the second-string quarterback as predictable as you can.

What's interesting is this the exact opposite complaint that most fanbases have. Whether it's Tim Tebow, Marty Pocius, or the lone crazy person calling for Zack Asack to play over Thad Lewis, you always here people wanting the reserves to play more. So much so that the term "Backup quarterback syndrome" exists. I think this is genuinely beyond that and a legitimate complaint, and I hope Cutcliffe is forced to address it again at the next press day.

uh_no
11-06-2011, 11:39 AM
Jim Sumner posted notes on one of Cutcliffe's press days where he sort of addressed this. If I remember correctly the answer was that he thinks that there's inherent value to playing a backup in case the starter gets hurt or something.

Did he play a backup QB when he had peyton and eli? now I know he wasn't the head coach....

but doesn't having the backup QB ready to come in if we need him at the end of the game completely worthless if getting said QB warm costs a chance to win the game anyway?

I'd rather take my chances with the starter.....it seems to work well for every other darn football team.....remember when the colts put in matt painter in the super bowl to keep him warm behind eli manning? or when the pats used to put matt cassel in behind brady? remember when auburn pulled cam newton in the title game last year?

yeah....neither do I

formerdukeathlete
11-06-2011, 12:07 PM
Without having read the rest of the responses on this thread, I take huge issue with your calling out Cut's recruiting effort. The fact is that with Duke as what he is trying to sell, David Cutcliffe has done a great job of recruiting. We are both faster and bigger than we have been in recent memory. We will NEVER bring in classes stacked with 4 star recruits. But when you look at the next tier of guys available, I have loved the ones he has sold the university on.

Olympic, I fear you have been drinking the Cut promo Koolaid.

Cut's recruiting initially was atrocious. It was exactly the opposite of what he was advised to do by the Chairman of the Faculty Athletics Council when he was interviewed for the job. He did not screen among highly sought after prospects nationally. Screen as in look to see who were better students who might (as has been the case since Wallace Wade) consider what Duke had to offer as a Football team by virture of their being more adept in the classroom.

Cut went about things on his own devices recruiting like he were at Ole Miss, looking for under the radar talent locally, and by that I mean primarily in North Carolina. Cutcliffe was quoted in Duke Magazine that Duke was so low he told his staff not to try to recruit high school All Americans, but look for under the radar. And a lot of the kids he offered and even obtained commitments from were under the academic cutoffs that Franks initially had to deal with and which Sloan and Limbaugh dealt with when landing top classes. As an aside, Football under Cut would look a lot less palatable to the University academically, had it not been for our walkon program. GPAs of our invited walkons have helped our team averages considerably. The invited walkon program was expanded as a result of the recommendations in the strategic plan for Athletics.

Go out and recruit Clarkston Hines', VO's should have been Cut's mantra, but Cutcliffe did not offer most all of these caliber players, as in did not offer at all. He prefers to recruit out of camp, as in who among prospects will give Duke summer camp a try. Top prospects who are better students who might consider Duke will be spread across the country, and many will not be able to make it to Duke for camp.

Contrast Cut's approach with Mike London's at UVa. He is landing much higher ranked classes, and if you look at the recruit data available on line, his classes look better academcially, as well as being higher ranked. Lately, as in this year, it looks like Cutcliffe is trying to offer among better students. Still, we have commitments in the 12 class, a fair number, who appear to be under Duke's fairly long time cutoffs.

Kareem Martin was a highly regarded North Carolina in state prospect a couple of years ago who was a better student who we were in the running with and who finally picked North Carolina over Duke because they had an undergrad business major, so it goes. Was Martin even made aware that Duke had a program with Fuqua which might allow Martin to be well along on an MBA by the end of his eligibility at Duke? I dont know, but I think had we Harbaugh as coach, he would have been all over this, as well as introducing pre med inclined prospects to Duke med. At Stanford, Harbaugh had one or more premed inclined recruits in the operating room at Stanford med.

TheDevilMadeMeDoIt
11-06-2011, 12:18 PM
Agree we need to be more aggressive. But I would amend that slightly to be SMARTLY aggressive. The Boone thing has been stated enough times already. It's neither smart nor aggressive. But I also think about that crucial moment in the game when we scored our second touchdown, had some real momentum on offense, down just 28-14, and we do WHAT? Seriously, we're going to catch Miami off guard with an onside kick? We literally threw the game away right there. Call it aggressive if you want, but I call stupid. It's fine to take some calculated risks - a reverse, a flea flicker on 1st down, whatever. But that was absolutely inane. I know hindsight is 20/20, but really, I cannot believe that call. You've got to have faith that your defense can get it figured out. At least make Miami work for it. But flipping the field on yourself that quickly and at that crucial moment... sorry, I will never understand that.

I have agreed with most posters today, but I disagree about the criticism of the onside kick. We were not going to beat these guys yesterday without some gambling. On almost every onside kick the other team expects it, yet they still succeed more than one would expect. For me the onside kick was a good decision. I would rather see us try one on every kickoff than the other boneheaded things we do, such as run, run , run on 1st down, short pass on 3rd down, and bring in Boone when we get near the goal line. The poster who mentioned Steve Sloan's offense in the early 70's was right on. Slaon took Ben Bennett and threw it sideways most of the year. Has Steve been our guest offensive coordinator recently? Look at how different Spurrier was at Duke with limited talent. You have to gamble all the time and keep it wide open to give yourself a chance. I love David Cutliffe and I think he is our best coach since Spurrier, but this is Duke. You have to open it up. That creates the opportunity for success. And, I do recognize that gambling on offense creates big risks, but what the Hell, go for it.

OldPhiKap
11-06-2011, 12:31 PM
I think we can defer the "debate" over Cut's recruiting until next season. Our team has a great number of juniors and below right now, and Cut was able to redshirt a number of quality players (which you need to do to compete, although we've been pressed to do it).

Comparing UVa or Stanford to Duke seems apples and oranges to me for a number of reasons. UVa is a (relatively) large state school with a natural draw, and Palo Alto is as different from Durham as one can really describe. Both UVa and Stanford have had successful teams in recent memory. Duke is digging out of decades of neglect.

Put another way -- students at UVa and Stanford show up for their games even in tough times. Our students don't show up under any circumstances. Recruiting to Duke is fundamentally more difficult than almost any other D-1 school.

Having said all of that, I think Cut has done an admirable job. We will either see the fruits of that next year, or we won't. But I see no reason to cut him off at the knees presently.

Olympic Fan
11-06-2011, 12:44 PM
Olympic, I fear you have been drinking the Cut promo Koolaid.



Ahh, you do know that the post you were responding to was not mine ... it was from CameronBornanBred.

But that's okay ... I so strongly disagree with you on so many subjects, I don't mind being confused with somebody else.

J.Blink
11-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Ahh, you do know that the post you were responding to was not mine ... it was from CameronBornanBred.

But that's okay ... I so strongly disagree with you on so many subjects, I don't mind being confused with somebody else.

Forgive the all caps, but, VERY WELL SAID.

Bob Green
11-06-2011, 01:53 PM
I dont know, but I think had we Harbaugh as coach, he would have been all over this, as well as introducing pre med inclined prospects to Duke med. At Stanford, Harbaugh had one or more premed inclined recruits in the operating room at Stanford med.


Comparing UVa or Stanford to Duke seems apples and oranges to me for a number of reasons.

I agree with OPK, comparing Stanford and Duke is apples and oranges. For starters, California has a population of 37,300,000 people, while North Carolina is at 9,500,000. But of the 120 Division 1 or FBS schools, how many are in California? And how many are in North Carolina?

California contains seven FBS schools: Stanford, California, USC, UCLA, Fresno State, San Jose State and San Diego State. North Carolina contains five FBS schools: Duke, Carolina, State, Wake Forest and East Carolina.

So California has four times the population but only 1.4 times as many schools, which equals less competition for top in state football players. I realize recruiting is not limited to in state, but establishing a strong in state base is critical.

formerdukeathlete
11-06-2011, 02:09 PM
Ahh, you do know that the post you were responding to was not mine ... it was from CameronBornanBred.

But that's okay ... I so strongly disagree with you on so many subjects, I don't mind being confused with somebody else.

Sorry about that, Olympic.
You are welcome to disagree with my opinions, of course, but its hard to refute the facts, as in what based on Cut's own comments, offers indicated by national recruiting services (while not 100% complete, do relate to numbers of offers made), Cut did not go out and sell Duke to top prospects initially. That is unfortunately not opinion, but rather factual. Cut's reasons were that he eschewed ratings services, that he prefers to recruit of camp, that Duke was so low. His own words expressed these as reasons.

Now is our talent deficit a function of the inevitable, the hopelessness of Duke Football, the long turnaround which would be required, no matter who is the coach? Or, is it a function of who we have as a coach?

As to the need to establish an in-state recruiting base, Duke's recruting base is national, by virtue of the nature of the school, it is national. How did we win a national championship in soccer, lacrosse, basketball? Were these won with in-state (predominantly) talent? No, not even close.

I think Cut seems like a very nice man, a capable OC based on his time at Tenn. post Ole Miss and open heart surgery. I dont think he is the right man to take Duke to upper tier ACC play. I hope I am wrong, because the transition is going to be messy, a bit costly, and the Administration better know what it is doing, as in how to lay out the job description and set expectations, when hiring Cut's replacement. Northwestern is harder to recruit to as a general matter. Not because of its higher academic requirements for Football players. They actually help coaches there to identify players who may actually be interested in the school. Its harder to recruit to Northwestern because it is a less desirable place to attend school. Stanford's and Northwestern's, as well as UVa's and Vandy's, recent successes in recruiting are helpful to our Administration is seeing what is possible at Duke.

throatybeard
11-06-2011, 02:11 PM
The real problem here is that Cutcliffe isn't tall enough. I know it's hard to see, because the field hasn't been lowered yet, but if you look close, it's right there.

duke09hms
11-06-2011, 05:53 PM
Coach Cutcliffe deserves at least quite a while as head coach before his seat starts getting warm. Football programs take more time to resurrect simply because of the huge roster, and the hole that Duke football has been in is incomparable to any other programs like Stanford, Northwestern, Vandy, or Wake. However, I do think it is valid to look at their accomplishments and set them as our program goals. Stanford and Wake show us that winning a BCS conference and making a BCS Bowl IS possible and something that ought to be a goal of ours. While expecting for us to reach those heights in just a few years is unreasonable, we should expect to see progress, and that is where most of our frustration stems from.

As a BCS conference school, we have to win our nonconference games because we are simply not going to win many conference games very soon - imagine if we had beaten Richmond and stopped stupidly scheduling national powerhouses to play like Alabama and Stanford. Instead we lose to FBS schools and with each such loss, we set the program back a year. Like it or not, we need to schedule more patsies and more importantly, we need to beat them in order for us to have a shot at a bowl.

SIDENOTE/RANT: People here love to complain about students not coming to games. Can you blame them? Every year Cutcliffe blows hot air about how the team is so much better and ready to turn the corner, the students turnout for the first game, and we blow it against Richmond. If the team stops choking winnable games and starts winning, they will come. The 3x national champion Duke Math Team consistently finishes in the top 5 every year and probably has more in common with the student body than the football team, yet you don't see them whining about student support. At a place like Duke where almost every student group is extremely successful, why would they come support a non-competitive team that consistently loses in heartbreaking fashion.

Also, comparisons to Stanford's Jim Harbaugh are frustrating and unfair. Harbaugh is a once-in-a-lifetime coach, and his fire and ability to motivate are unmatched. His work at Stanford is nothing less than legendary, and it would have been great to have him here. However, comparing Duke football to Stanford football's ascension is meaningless, it's like any other basketball program saying, "well Coach K did it, why can't you?" "Umm, well because I'm not Coach K?" Cutcliffe is a great guy, and the program has unarguably improved under him - 13 wins in 9 seasons before him, 15 wins in 4 seasons with Cutcliffe. However, he's no Harbaugh, just as no other bball coach is coach K, and I am perfectly alright with that. He will stay here as long as he wants, and it would be foolish to even consider firing him.

Recruiting Questions: The idea that we need to establish an in-state recruiting stronghold seems to be a fallacy. Of Stanford's 2012 class of 14, only 1 is from CA, of their 2011 class of 19, only 4 are from CA, of their 2010 class of 22, 4 from CA, of their 2009 class of 22, 9 from CA, 2008 class of 19, 8 from CA, and Harbaugh's first recruiting class of 2007 (before he had proven any success), 5 of the 19 are from CA. Again as above, Harbaugh is probably one of the best college coaches of recent history, so it's unfair to compare him w/ Cutcliffe, but it seems like in-state recruiting is nonessential to success, moreso if in a state like NC. A review of Northwestern/Vandy recruiting reveals the same - very few in-state recruits for solid football programs at national universities.

Duke is a national if not international school and so can and should recruit nationally. Academics should be a selling point for recruits and not an obstacle to be overcome. And so if it is true that Cutcliffe has successfully gotten more lenient academic standards for his recruits, then that is garbage in my book. Can anyone actually confirm this with a source? It's almost like trying to find the easy way instead of putting in the required work and due diligence. We should be going after the smartest top recruits - if the vast majority of HS students choose Duke over Vandy/Northwestern anyway, then perhaps most academically inclined FB recruits would do the same. A recent example is OL Laken Tomlinson - pre-med FB player chooses Duke over Ohio State/Northwestern because of Duke's top-5 med school and hospital.

Cutcliffe is a good man, and I am overall very happy to have him as our FB coach. However, he is not infallible (especially with his selection of OC), and this alum will continue to support the team and be crushed with every game we continue to give away. I do have to say that next year is probably our best chance at a bowl game (Renfree and Vernon's senior seasons), and if we don't get there then, it might be a long while.

cspan37421
11-06-2011, 06:10 PM
Roper's bio at goduke.com takes considerable credit for the great things Duke's offense accomplished with Thad Lewis at the helm. While I share frustration with the play-calling this year, I do wonder if we're being completely fair. If he's to blame for our woes this year, is he actually due credit for Thad Lewis' success? If each of these puts too much at his feet, is it more perhaps the case that Thad was simply a much better QB than what we have now? And if so, that points to recruiting as much as playcalling.

Just thinking ... not making a case one way or another.

uh_no
11-06-2011, 06:12 PM
Roper's bio at goduke.com takes considerable credit for the great things Duke's offense accomplished with Thad Lewis at the helm. While I share frustration with the play-calling this year, I do wonder if we're being completely fair. If he's to blame for our woes this year, is he actually due credit for Thad Lewis' success? If each of these puts too much at his feet, is it more perhaps the case that Thad was simply a much better QB than what we have now? And if so, that points to recruiting as much as playcalling.

Just thinking ... not making a case one way or another.

I think its just that renfree is a DIFFERENT quarterback than thad...and what may have worked for thad is clearly not working here.

cspan37421
11-06-2011, 06:14 PM
I think its just that renfree is a DIFFERENT quarterback than thad...and what may have worked for thad is clearly not working here.

It would indeed be ironic, would it not, if what Roper can teach a QB works for Ted Roof recruits but not David Cutcliffe recruits?

Wander
11-06-2011, 06:21 PM
Roper's bio at goduke.com takes considerable credit for the great things Duke's offense accomplished with Thad Lewis at the helm. While I share frustration with the play-calling this year, I do wonder if we're being completely fair. If he's to blame for our woes this year, is he actually due credit for Thad Lewis' success? If each of these puts too much at his feet, is it more perhaps the case that Thad was simply a much better QB than what we have now? And if so, that points to recruiting as much as playcalling.


I honestly think the presence of the Boone/Connette package makes a huge difference. As I mentioned, it was a 14 point swing in the Miami game - that's a lot! I don't remember anything similar with Thad. We would put in Asack for a series occasionally, but a series is different from a laughably predictable play or two.

Also, Thad was just a better quarterback. But Renfree is a good one, and I don't have a problem with how he's developing as an individual player.

uh_no
11-06-2011, 06:22 PM
It would indeed be ironic, would it not, if what Roper can teach a QB works for Ted Roof recruits but not David Cutcliffe recruits?

no....it would be like trying to teach shaq to play like gasol

devilirium
11-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Tough day for football at Miami, but we’re proud of the team. They are resilient and will bounce back, and if a handful of plays had gone differently, they’d be bowl-eligible right now. Next play.

Agree with the last bit, but the first sentence suggests a "Let's give these guys a cookie for trying" kinda mentality. I think most of them are not proud of what they've reaped right now. At least, we've gone beyond the "well, at least we graduate our players" sentiment that was purported by DBR after a bad loss in the Franks and Roof years.