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gw67
07-15-2007, 01:19 PM
The first cut of the Pan Am team was made after five playing sessions. Ellington of UNC and Gist of Maryland are in the final 14 which will be cut to 12 before team leaves for games. A bunch of no names: Foster (Vandy), Weaver and Low (Washington State), Taylor and Leunen (Oregon) and Carter (Texas A&M). I'm surprised that Brockman (Washington), Costner (N.C.State), Lofton (Tennessee) and one of the Kansas guards didn't make it but they must have been outplayed in the eyes of the selection committee. I only saw Washington State and Oregon play a couple games last year but count me as one who was not impressed by any of their individual players.

Good experience for Scheyer and the rest of the ACC players. Hope Nelson recovers quickly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2937067

gw67

ACCBBallFan
07-15-2007, 05:25 PM
Looks like they decided to go with mostly seniors.

Of the roster of finalists features 10 players who will be seniors in 2007-08, two who will be juniors (Carter and Maynor) and two who will be sophomores in 2007-08. (Ellington and Reynolds)

I read somewhere that costner who I felt plays an international style has been having to ice his knee most of the past week.

USA Today confirmed ESPN Team USA Pan Am roster and has audio from each finalist, plus coach Wright and Boeheim.

http://www.usabasketball.com/news.php?news_page=07_mpag_finalists

Ellington (2006 Nike Hoop Summit, 2005 Youth Development Festival Blue Team); Leunen (2003 Youth Development Festival West Team); Reynolds (2005 Youth Development Festival White Team); Taylor (2003 Youth Development Festival West Team); and White (2004 Nike Hoop Summit and 2003 Youth Development Festival South Team) all possess previous USA Basketball experience.

just_wondering
07-15-2007, 08:53 PM
GW67,

I think that are a number of different interpretations of what happened during the Maryland season last year. The standard interpretation is that the three seniors woke up realized that this was the last go round and carried the team down the stretch to the ACC tournament where they reverted to type. My interpretation is that Gist,Vasquez and Hayes carried the team and because two of them were freshmen hit the wall at the ACC tournament. I am hoping that Gist is proving my theory correct. If you believe that Gist, Vasquez and Hayes were the difference makers then it is hard to believe that Maryland will be NIT bound this year.

ACCBBallFan
07-15-2007, 11:09 PM
GW67,

I think that are a number of different interpretations of what happened during the Maryland season last year. The standard interpretation is that the three seniors woke up realized that this was the last go round and carried the team down the stretch to the ACC tournament where they reverted to type. My interpretation is that Gist,Vasquez and Hayes carried the team and because two of them were freshmen hit the wall at the ACC tournament. I am hoping that Gist is proving my theory correct. If you believe that Gist, Vasquez and Hayes were the difference makers then it is hard to believe that Maryland will be NIT bound this year.Those three seem very solid and Osby looked like he had some potential last year.

Just depends on them getting some help from some of these returning guys or Gary again finding some diamonds in the rough from whatever freshmen guys he has coming in not all that highly ranked,

With veterans like Strawberry, Mike Jones, Ibekwe, and even Bowers playing ahead of many of these guys last year, and MD not on TV all that much, hard to tell how much potential any of them have. But the two now sophomore guards seemed to have some leadership skills as freshmen.

On the surafce though, MD appears to be a couple players short, like NC State last year. Once their first 5 get in any foul trouble or minor injuries, could be shaky, but when they are all available, pretty solid.

F  6-9  212  Sophomore  Jerome Burney
G  6-3  175  Sophomore  Eric Hayes
F  6-7  205  Sophomore  Landon Milbourne
G  6-5  195  Sophomore  Greivis Vasquez
F  6-7  260  Junior  Dave Neal
F  6-8  228  Senior James Gist
G-F  6-5  190  Senior Jason McAlpin
F  6-8  255  Senior Bambale Osby

just_wondering
07-16-2007, 05:43 AM
ACCBallFan,

Neal had shoulder surgery in the offseason.
Burney broke his foot again in the spring.
Landon Milborne has impressed the coaching staff.

Starting line-up
Vasquez
Hayes
Osby
Gist
Milborne

Neal solid roll player and captain material

From 5 recruits and Burney they need only two more pieces to the puzzle

gw67
07-16-2007, 08:00 AM
j_w,

It is nice to see Gist make the first cut. I will be surprised if the team carries five big men so he may be in danger of not making the final cut.

I agree with you that he was a key player for the Terps during the last two months of the season, and I expect him to be their leader during the upcoming season. He is one of those players who has improved markedly during his three years. His stats in all of the following categories have improved during each of his three years: mpg, ppg, rpg, blpg, stpg, apg, fg% and ft%. He has improved his offense, adding inside shots with either hand, a mid-range jumper and even a solid outside jumper to the run and dunk offense he had when he arrived as a freshman. He still needs to improve his passing and he needs to become stronger but he should be a candidate for All ACC if he stays healthy.

I note that either the Post or the Sun recently stated that Vasquez had made the next-to-final cut (15 players) for the Argentina senior team (they play against the NBA-level teams later this year in Vegas, I believe). I expect that he will significantly improve as a soph and this experience should be helpful.

gw67

ACCBBallFan
07-16-2007, 10:46 AM
Here's the link but it was Venezuela, not Argentina.

http://umterps.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/071207aaa.html

Regarding James Gist, I have not seen him play a lot but I have always thought he had so much more talent than he actually displays, probably an unjustified criticism that falls on a lot of natural athletes that make it look so easy some feel they are not trying as hard as they could, when the fact of the matter is they are just so darn good.

Maybe like Lance Thomas said about his play at Duke last year, Gist was just deferring too much to the seniors Ibekwe, Jones and Strawberry.

pfrduke
07-16-2007, 11:09 AM
The first cut of the Pan Am team was made after five playing sessions. Ellington of UNC and Gist of Maryland are in the final 14 which will be cut to 12 before team leaves for games. A bunch of no names: Foster (Vandy), Weaver and Low (Washington State), Taylor and Leunen (Oregon) and Carter (Texas A&M). I'm surprised that Brockman (Washington), Costner (N.C.State), Lofton (Tennessee) and one of the Kansas guards didn't make it but they must have been outplayed in the eyes of the selection committee. I only saw Washington State and Oregon play a couple games last year but count me as one who was not impressed by any of their individual players.

Good experience for Scheyer and the rest of the ACC players. Hope Nelson recovers quickly.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2937067

gw67

Maybe they're no-names outside of ACC-country, but the players you listed are all very talented players who have received their share of recognition within their conferences. Foster was Vandy's second-best player, and was a coaches' 2nd team all-SEC (AP all-SEC honorable mention). Derrick Low and Kyle Weaver led a remarkable turnaround at WSU and were among the 9 players selected as All Pac-10. Maarty Leunen was honorable mention All Pac-10, and one of the most efficient all-around players in the conference. And Josh Carter (honorable mention all-Big XII) is A&M's best player now that Law and Jones are gone (if Jones pulled out of the draft, I take that back). They may not be quite as recognizable as a Chris Lofton or Jon Brockman, but this group is not a bunch of no names.

gw67
07-16-2007, 11:34 AM
ACCBBallFan - Your comparison of Gist and Thomas as freshmen may be fair. Gist was a good run/jump athlete but he didn't have many skills or a good feel for the game, and the refs seemed to call a bunch of touch fouls on him. I think Thomas' freshman year was similar.

Although their games were far from finished products, both appeared to be mature youngsters. I recall Gist as a freshman, listening intently and looking directly at Williams during his sideline tirades while others stared straight ahead. I believe that both of his parents are ex-military and he seemed to be very interested in improving. Thomas always seemed to be "in the game" even after he was removed for ticky-tack fouls. He also appears to have a good outlook based on a recent interview. It would be nice if he improves year-by-year as well.

gw67

gw67
07-16-2007, 11:55 AM
pfrduke - Thanks for some info on "no-names". I follow college basketball but I couldn't tell you who Carter, Taylor and Foster played for. As I mentioned, they must have outplayed Brockman, Lofton and others. Both Oregon and Washington State had very good seasons last year. From my memory, the little guards on Oregon, including one who is very short, were easily the best players on their team. Washington State seemed to play a slow down game and the only player they had who seemed to be able to shoot was a freshman forward. The question I would have about this team is outside shooting. Perhaps, they are depending on Ellington, Reynolds and a couple of the "no names".

gw67

juise
07-16-2007, 12:36 PM
From my memory, the little guards on Oregon, including one who is very short, were easily the best players on their team.

The little guards were Aaron Brooks (who has been making waves in the NBA summer league after being drafted late in the first round) and the aforemention Bryce Taylor. Taylor's most notable game was an 11 for 11 shooting (7 for 7 from 3-point range) performance that lifted the Ducks to the Pac-1o tournament title last year in a route of USC.

pfrduke
07-16-2007, 01:16 PM
The little guards were Aaron Brooks (who has been making waves in the NBA summer league after being drafted late in the first round) and the aforemention Bryce Taylor. Taylor's most notable game was an 11 for 11 shooting (7 for 7 from 3-point range) performance that lifted the Ducks to the Pac-1o tournament title last year in a route of USC.

Actually, the other litte guard he's remembering is Tajuan Porter, the all of 5'6" freshman who exploded for OU last year. Bryce Taylor is much more of a wing/guard at 6'5". He had an excellent year, averaging 14.1 and 4.6 and shooting 42.2% from 3. He and Porter are the go to scorers for Oregon next year.

pfrduke
07-16-2007, 01:25 PM
pfrduke - Thanks for some info on "no-names". I follow college basketball but I couldn't tell you who Carter, Taylor and Foster played for. As I mentioned, they must have outplayed Brockman, Lofton and others. Both Oregon and Washington State had very good seasons last year. From my memory, the little guards on Oregon, including one who is very short, were easily the best players on their team. Washington State seemed to play a slow down game and the only player they had who seemed to be able to shoot was a freshman forward. The question I would have about this team is outside shooting. Perhaps, they are depending on Ellington, Reynolds and a couple of the "no names".

gw67

Taylor and Low are both good outside shooters, Taylor at 42.2% from 3, and Low at 39.9%. Low, like Neitzel (who shot 41.2% from outside), can pull up and shoot the 3 off the dribble (Taylor is more of a spot-up). Taylor, Neitzel, Josh Carter (50% from 3 last year on 172 attempts), Low, and Foster (career 40% 3pt shooter, though he had a down year from outside last season) all shoot very well from outside, and all of those except Foster shot better from 3 last season than either Ellington or Reynolds. This team has plenty of folks that can gun from deep. Honestly, I think Foster, Taylor, and Carter are all more deserving of PT than Ellington on that squad, particularly if they run a 2-point guard lineup with two of the Low, Neitzel, Reynolds, Maynor group on the court at all times. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked if Ellington is not in the final 12 by the weekend.

juise
07-16-2007, 01:39 PM
Actually, the other litte guard he's remembering is Tajuan Porter, the all of 5'6" freshman who exploded for OU last year. Bryce Taylor is much more of a wing/guard at 6'5". He had an excellent year, averaging 14.1 and 4.6 and shooting 42.2% from 3. He and Porter are the go to scorers for Oregon next year.

You're right. I was thinking of Porter, too. I thought his breakout game was in the tournament, but then I looked up Taylor's stats and was miguided. Porter's big game was in the Sweet 16 against UNLV when he scored 33 (8 of 12 from 3-point range).

Patrick Yates
07-16-2007, 01:44 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/seth_davis/07/16/hoop.thoughts/index.html

comments redacted in advance

Patrick Yates

ACCBBallFan
07-16-2007, 10:19 PM
Taylor and Low are both good outside shooters, Taylor at 42.2% from 3, and Low at 39.9%. Low, like Neitzel (who shot 41.2% from outside), can pull up and shoot the 3 off the dribble (Taylor is more of a spot-up). Taylor, Neitzel, Josh Carter (50% from 3 last year on 172 attempts), Low, and Foster (career 40% 3pt shooter, though he had a down year from outside last season) all shoot very well from outside, and all of those except Foster shot better from 3 last season than either Ellington or Reynolds. This team has plenty of folks that can gun from deep. Honestly, I think Foster, Taylor, and Carter are all more deserving of PT than Ellington on that squad, particularly if they run a 2-point guard lineup with two of the Low, Neitzel, Reynolds, Maynor group on the court at all times. Actually, I wouldn't be shocked if Ellington is not in the final 12 by the weekend.Wow, guess I have been putting too much faith in the CSTV reports and UNC message baords.

I was thinking Ellington might start, but had forgotten about Neitzel who I really like.

I was also thinking that the PG slot was very dependent on Eric Maynor when Mario Chalmers and Sherron Collins got cut and Sean Singletary and Dominic James got caught in some administrivia not being on the preliminary roster when they were at the time still pursuing their immediate NBA prospects.

All but four of the 14 are seniors, so should be pretty experienced team USA, with 5 including Ellington having prior experience in international play.

thebur
07-17-2007, 11:00 AM
Here is a good article I hadn't seen yet on DBR, talks about using last year's first round exit as a teaching point for the coming season.

Let's hope we are getting all of our injury bug out now!

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2938073

gw67
07-17-2007, 11:40 AM
The current group of 14 players includes:

4 point guards - Neitzel, Maynor, Low and Reynolds
5 wings - Ellington, Taylor, Carter, Foster and Weaver
5 frontcourt players - Hibbert, Dorsey, Leunen, Gist and White

On the surface, it appears that one of the point guards and one of the frontcourt players will be cut to get to the 12 man squad but I could see them keeping a combo guard like Reynolds and dropping a wing like Weaver.

gw67

ACCBBallFan
07-17-2007, 01:12 PM
The current group of 14 players includes:

4 point guards - Neitzel, Maynor, Low and Reynolds
5 wings - Ellington, Taylor, Carter, Foster and Weaver
5 frontcourt players - Hibbert, Dorsey, Leunen, Gist and White

On the surface, it appears that one of the point guards and one of the frontcourt players will be cut to get to the 12 man squad but I could see them keeping a combo guard like Reynolds and dropping a wing like Weaver.

gw67

Wow, looks like neither ACC guy is a lock. Gotta figure Hibbert, Dorsey and DJ White are locks and forward cut is either Leunen or Gist.

For the 9 guards, going solely on metrics even though there is more to it

FG% 3PT% FG 3PT Total Player Sum%
492 500 8 9 17 Carter 992
517 422 9 8 17 Taylor 939
446 399 5 6 11 Low 845
426 412 3 7 10 Neitzel 838
449 346 6 2 8 Foster 795
487 237 7 1 8 Weaver 724
424 390 2 5 7 Maynor 814
433 371 4 3 7 Ellington 804
387 376 1 4 5 Reynolds 763


So it appears if based mostly on metrics, the guard that gets cut would come from Reynolds who is worst shooter overall, Weaver who is just not a 3 PT shooter (9/38), and then Ellington or Maynor, since Foster's 3 point woes this year were apparently out of character.

rather than from some of these guys many of us knew nothing about like Carter. Taylor, and Low who shoot lights out.

gw67
07-17-2007, 03:05 PM
ACCBBallFan - All of the guards and wings are excellent free throw shooters with Weaver being the worst at 77% and Neitzel being the best at 88%.

Majerus (and others) use the 180 Rule (fg% plus ft% plus 3-pt% over 180) to define a great shooter. None of the players meet that goal but Carter, Taylor and Neitzel are excellent shooters and Low, Foster and Ellington are better than average (see below):

Carter 177
Taylor 177
Neitzel 172
Low 164
Foster 164
Ellington 164
Maynor 159
Reynolds 159
Weaver 150

gw67

juise
07-17-2007, 05:21 PM
Majerus (and others) use the 180 Rule (fg% plus ft% plus 3-pt% over 180) to define a great shooter. None of the players meet that goal but Carter, Taylor and Neitzel are excellent shooters and Low, Foster and Ellington are better than average (see below):

Carter 177
Taylor 177
Neitzel 172
Low 164
Foster 164
Ellington 164
Maynor 159
Reynolds 159
Weaver 150

gw67

For the sake of comparison, I looked up Duke's two best overall shooters from last season.

Scheyer 161
Paulus 166


Interestingly enough, J.J. never reached the 180 mark either:

Freshman 173
Sophomore 177
Junior 175
Senior 175 (FT% hurt him)
Career 175

ACCBBallFan
07-17-2007, 05:45 PM
ACCBBallFan - All of the guards and wings are excellent free throw shooters with Weaver being the worst at 77% and Neitzel being the best at 88%.

Majerus (and others) use the 180 Rule (fg% plus ft% plus 3-pt% over 180) to define a great shooter. None of the players meet that goal but Carter, Taylor and Neitzel are excellent shooters and Low, Foster and Ellington are better than average (see below):

Carter 177
Taylor 177
Neitzel 172
Low 164
Foster 164
Ellington 164
Maynor 159
Reynolds 159
Weaver 150

gw67
Here's the link that said the two cut were Taylor and Carter. So much for metrics unless they are not so hot on defense.

http://slog.cstv.com/hangtime/


At least the ACC has two with Gist and Ellington, but I would have liked to have seen the three Ty's Tyler, Tywon and Tyrese plus Nelson and Costner but would not expect that many out of just 12 selected.

Ralph-Wiggum
07-17-2007, 07:46 PM
Majerus (and others) use the 180 Rule (fg% plus ft% plus 3-pt% over 180) to define a great shooter.



I guess that means that in 2006 Tyler Hansbrough was a great shooter (57% + 50% + 74%). ;)

mapei
07-17-2007, 10:31 PM
And he was certainly a great scorer. The difference may just be loose semantics.

gw67
07-18-2007, 07:12 AM
I suspect that the 180 rule applies to those who shoot three point shots on a regular basis (i.e. perimeter players). Hansbrough shot four 3-point shots that year. Last year he was at 155 which is still good for a big man.

Majerus first brought this thumb rule up during a Gonzaga game where he was describing Raivio as a pure shooter. Raivio was above 180 last year and for his career was at 178.

gw67

gw67
07-18-2007, 07:28 AM
The final cuts were made yesterday and, as noted earlier, Gist (Maryland) and Ellington (UNC) made the squad. I suspect that Wright had a major influence on the makeup of the team because there is only one perimeter player who has any size (Foster at 6-6). The rest are 6-0 (Neitzel), 6-1 (Low), 6-1 (Reynolds), 6-2 (Maynor), 6-4 (Ellington) and 6-5 (Weaver).

http://www.usabasketball.com/news.php?news_page=07mpag_team

I note that another ACC player, Thompson (UNC), is playing well for the USA U19 team.

gw67

Cali-Duke
07-18-2007, 12:24 PM
The 180 rule is a decent way of comparing 3 point shooters, but bringing up JJ is meaningless. He was usually double teamed his Junior and Senior years. While the smart thing to do in that situation would be to pass, he was our primary scorer, so he took those shots anyways. These statistics are rough estimations and should be taken with some consideration. On a lighter note, Singler isn't on crutches anymore :)

juise
07-18-2007, 12:49 PM
The 180 rule is a decent way of comparing 3 point shooters, but bringing up JJ is meaningless. He was usually double teamed his Junior and Senior years. While the smart thing to do in that situation would be to pass, he was our primary scorer, so he took those shots anyways. These statistics are rough estimations and should be taken with some consideration. On a lighter note, Singler isn't on crutches anymore :)

I brought up J.J. for reference because he clearly is/was a great shooter and I think his case shoots some holes in the 180 rule. I'm not so sure about your double-team point, though, since he didn't reach the 180 mark in his first two seasons either.

Oh, and that's wonderful news about Kyle.

ACCBBallFan
07-18-2007, 01:03 PM
The final cuts were made yesterday and, as noted earlier, Gist (Maryland) and Ellington (UNC) made the squad. I suspect that Wright had a major influence on the makeup of the team because there is only one perimeter player who has any size (Foster at 6-6). The rest are 6-0 (Neitzel), 6-1 (Low), 6-1 (Reynolds), 6-2 (Maynor), 6-4 (Ellington) and 6-5 (Weaver).

http://www.usabasketball.com/news.php?news_page=07mpag_team

I note that another ACC player, Thompson (UNC), is playing well for the USA U19 team.

gw67

Orgon has their midget 5' 6" Tajuan Porter on that U-19 team with Deon and had Maarty Leunen make top 12 and Bruce Taylor top 14 of PanAm. The Ducks also have Malik Hairston returning - so 4 double digit scorers back though they do lose Aaron Brooks their top scorer

PAC10 is probably strongest conference this year with UCLA, Wash St, USC, Oregon, Stanford, Arizona and Washington.

So could be a long year for Herb at AZ state, Boykin at Cal, and Oregon St.

gw67
07-18-2007, 02:36 PM
I agree that the PAC 10 will be the dominant conference this coming season. UCLA, Oregon, Washington State and USC are potentially Top Ten teams and Stanford, Washington and, perhaps, Arizona will be good.

gw67