Tebow

[JasonEvans]

Flurry of articles today talking about what a disaster he was yesterday. I found this one (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Al.5UELB8tFlRWs9BEIlq0xDubYF?slug=ms-silver_morning_rush_tebow_struggles_103111) particularly revealing because it speaks to what other NFL players are thinking.


“Come on – that’s embarrassing. I mean, it’s a joke," said one Lion defender. "We knew all week that if we brought any kind of defensive pressure, he couldn’t do anything. In the second half it got boring out there. We were like, ‘Come on – that’s your quarterback? Seriously?’ ”

It would be one thing if this particular defender could be written off as an outlier, but during the time I spent in the Lions’ locker room after the game – and, later, on the phone with various coaches, front-office executives and players around the league – similarly harsh assessments were uttered about the second-year quarterback making his second start of the 2011 season.

Words like atrocious, terrible, completely exposed and not even close to ready kept coming up in these conversations.

A movie reviewer friend of mine, Matt Goldberg of Collider.com (http://twitter.com/#!/MattGoldberg), tweeted the following earlier today:
Tim Tebow is like Rudy if Notre Dame had let Rudy keep playing.

-Jason "the Broncos supposedly are going to give him one more start -- but will check out Brady Quinn once the Tebow experiment is done" Evans

[Bluedog]

I'll admit I didn't watch the game, so I can't say for sure, but it seems that everybody is being a bit harsh to put 100% of the blame on Tebow. Are there not like 80 other guys on the team? Could it not be that the Lions are superior to the Broncos at basically every position and no matter what Tebow did, they had no hope? The Lions D-line is pretty solid last I checked, so it's not like Tebow was up against a bunch of patsies and just flopped. I just don't get the Tebow hate. Broncos have a lot of problems on their roster. Maybe the criticism should go more towards the staff as well for their offensive schemes.

[hurleyfor3]

Heh. If only you people know. We got Steelers/Pats blacked out, so we didn't even have a choice but to watch that atrocity. Well... actually we had plenty of choices of other things to do, this being Colorado. I guess something has to suck about living here.

[BD80]

Tebow - the proper noun or the verb?

As a Lion's fan, I felt conflicted watching the Lions mock his "private" genuflecting. His public display seems contrived, and he deserves the mocking, but ...

I was appalled that the NFL allowed the "Good v Evil" official storyline to be published as a caption for the game featuring Tebow and Suh. A better caption would have been "Hype v Substance."

[weezie]

Could it not be that the Lions are superior to the Broncos at basically every position and no matter what Tebow did, they had no hope? The Lions D-line is pretty solid last I checked

It could indeed be so. I feel giddy just reading the above quote.

Imagine...the Lion!

[BD80]

http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/33052141


However -- and this is a big however -- there’s a glaring disconnect between many fans’ assessment of Tebow’s status as a wholesome winner and the way many NFL players process his presence. To some, the notion that Tebow somehow pushes harder or taps into a higher power than they do is insulting. The NFL is full of maniacally driven grinders who’ve overcome incredible odds to reach the pinnacle of their profession, and many of them are clean-living and well-mannered, too.

While few NFL players seem to have a problem with Tebow on a personal level, I know plenty who are put off by the mythology and the holier-than-thou fan base that lionizes his every accomplishment and perceives negative depictions of his ability through a persecution-complex-tinted prism.

I think the players are more miffed about the NFL's institutional promotion of Tebow over other players. I will bet Suh has given back more than Tebow. Suh bought about $1 million in computers for Nebraska, before he ever played for the Lions. I will bet that Suh was a superior student in college to Tebow. To in any way portray Tebow as superior to Suh is heinous.

[Mal]

I think the players are more miffed about the NFL's institutional promotion of Tebow over other players.

I think this is the key, and agree with that Eye On Football quote. That sentiment ripples through the media as well, leading to some exceptionally harsh discussions of how generally not good as an NFL quarterback he looks. He's not where a second year QB who's now started half a dozen games should be. His head's on a swivel, he's inaccurate, it takes him forever to get rid of the ball, and there's still a deer in the headlights aspect to it all. In the old days, that would have been OK. But in this era, where 4 or 5 more, ready to start Day 1, QB's come out of the NCAA every single season, it just doesn't cut it. Contrast to Andy Dalton and Cam Newton. And now Christian Ponder. Those guys are rookies and they're already light years ahead of Tebow as NFL QB's.

When you add to that the resentment out there amongst people that, due only to the prepackaged pr and the Heisman and the outrageous amount of coverage he got as a college player, they even have to discuss his play, you're going to get this kind of backlash. There have been plenty of mobile, make things happen, just good enough as a passer to win in college, quarterbacks entering the NFL in the past. Each of them prior to Tebow have been billed as "great college quarterback, but we'll see if their unique set of skills translates." Kind of like the undersized two guard who's stuck between a point guard and a sg when he tries the NBA. None of them have been lionized the way Tebow has, none of them have been called some kind of transcendent leader and expected to succeed simply because of that, and none of them came with a nationwide legion of fans who appear to simply not believe he won't be able to change the way offense is played in the NFL.

Personally, I get annoyed by all the "leader," "heart" and "winner" stuff that seems to follow Tebow around. You know who else is an incredible winner? Payton Manning. He also has a cannon for an arm and a once-in-a-lifetime ability to understand what defenses are doing. You know who else has a lot of heart? Aaron Rodgers. He also can make any throw on the field, and is just as mobile as Tebow. You know who else is a great leader? Tom Brady. He's also got a speedy delivery and is ridiculously consistent and accurate. Intangibles are often exaggerated or imagined/assumed from afar or just applied to fit a likely narrative with no real evidence. Talent is real.

I feel somewhat sorry for Tebow. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, and he hasn't done all that much to feed the hype surrounding him, and it's certainly not his fault Josh McDaniels made such a dumb draft decision on him. That's what it all comes down to, though. If he'd been picked where a huge question mark QB should have been picked (ie, in the third round), Denver wouldn't feel obligated to give him a shot yet. They could have experimented in practice for a few years, seen what he was capable of, tried him in different positions, and given up or not, outside the constant speculation and criticism. But because they were so aggressive to take him so early, they're in this position where Fox and Elway are essentially forced to watch him fail spectacularly and publicly so they can move on without Tebow's true believers always nipping at their heels. They could have moved Tebow to TE or H-back by now, not had to leave Adam Weber (who reportedly was significantly better in training camp) on the practice squad, and moved on by now with another legitimate option to try after demoting Orton.

[Wander]

There have been plenty of mobile, make things happen, just good enough as a passer to win in college, quarterbacks entering the NFL in the past.

I'm with you on most of what you said, but I have to disagree a little bit here. Tebow was absolutely unique as a college player - we've seen plenty of quarterbacks who have a runningback-type style to their game, but Tebow was the first quarterback/fullback type of player I've seen, or at least the only really good one. He deserved a lot of the college hype.

But I agree with all the other stuff. Unfortunately, I think Denver was put in a situation where they basically had to start Tebow, if only to please the hysteric fan base. That way they can say "you see? We told you he wasn't that good at this time, now can we get back to trying to win football games with Quinn?" You'd like to think that NFL coaches wouldn't be controlled by fan pressure, but I can see why they felt they needed to put him out there.

[JasonEvans]

It was clear after about week 4 that the Broncos were not going to the playoffs this season. So, it behooves them to start Tebow 1) because it brings in fans eager to see him play and 2) because it helps assure you that you will get a high draft pick.

In sports, there is perhaps nothing worse than mediocrity. If you are going to miss the playoffs, be sure you miss spectacularly so you get a higher draft pick. The team who finishes 1 game out of the playoffs and the team that loses every single game have exactly the same chance of winning a Super Bowl this year (though the team 1 game out could be nicely building for next year and probably has better attendance and so on). The only difference in them is that one is picking about 20th and one is picking in the top 3, the difference in drafting Cam Newton or -- well -- Tim Tebow** ;)

--Jason "I still don't understand why the Broncos don't try harder to convert Tebow into a TE or WR -- he certainly has the physical skills for those positions" Evans

**- I know he got picked about 40 picks higher than anyone expected, but the analogy just fit so perfectly

[Mal]

I'm with you on most of what you said, but I have to disagree a little bit here. Tebow was absolutely unique as a college player - we've seen plenty of quarterbacks who have a runningback-type style to their game, but Tebow was the first quarterback/fullback type of player I've seen, or at least the only really good one. He deserved a lot of the college hype.

Yes, fair enough. I think Culpepper was a little that way, given his size, but obviously he only got about 1% of the attention due to the program he was in. Otherwise, the run/pass guys like Chase Daniel, Cam Newton, Vince Young, were mostly edge runners or option/qb draw type guys, instead of getting so many designed runs up the middle. That said, the Tebow style was more obviously not going to translate well to the NFL. At least in hindsight. He's huge, but so are the linebackers. Culpepper's great size was much more valuable in the pros as a shield against sacks, as he could shrug off blitzing CB's or safeties and DE's had a tough time dragging him down. He didn't use that size to plow up the middle and run over linebackers much in the NFL. Tebow appears to have been the perfect quarterback for Urban Meyer's system (or Urban Meyer the perfect coach to scheme up an offense around the talents presented him in Tebow), which was more than enough for Florida. But as we saw Sunday, the Detroit Lions aren't the Michigan Wolverines.

As a broader point, given the evolution of the pro game and offense-friendly rules, it's even more baffling why Josh McDaniels even wanted to bother with a project like Tebow. Perhaps he could have developed into a different type of quarterback than we'd seen before, but when the league's absolutely chock full of guys on their way to 5,000 yard passing seasons, what would be the point? Running 'aint where it's at in the NFL these days. A guy who came from the Patriots must have known that.

I think the Broncos aren't much going to like what's behind door number 3 when and if they give up on Tebow, either. Hasn't Quinn already shown he's not the guy to lead a bad offense? Luckily, Denver should have a top 5 pick and can go get that guy from Baylor or someone else.

[jimmymax]

I have about as much interest in the Tebow hype as I do the Humphries/Kardashian hysteria, but I was wondering if anyone went with the feeding Christians to Lions in the Colosseum angle...

[Wander]

But as we saw Sunday, the Detroit Lions aren't the Michigan Wolverines.


And the Michigan Wolverines were already good enough to beat Tebow in a big game :)

[Duvall]

I'm with you on most of what you said, but I have to disagree a little bit here. Tebow was absolutely unique as a college player - we've seen plenty of quarterbacks who have a runningback-type style to their game, but Tebow was the first quarterback/fullback type of player I've seen, or at least the only really good one. He deserved a lot of the college hype.

College hype perhaps, but the strange thing about Tebow has been the way that he has received far more NFL hype than Heisman trophy winners with limited pro skillsets have received in the past. There's just never been anything to indicate that Tebow warrants even a fraction of the attention that he has gotten as a pro.

[cspan37421]

I think a big part of the hype is that he led Florida (isn't this correct?) to 2 national championships as a college quarterback. That, coupled with his wearing his most-popular-in-America religion on his sleeve (er, make that on his eye black), and many people were thrilled by him - how he performed, what he stood for.

The thing that's pathetic in this is the leadership of the Broncos. Apparently the coaches all knew that he was by far the least accurate or prepared QB on their roster. They saw him every day in practice and made sure to leak to reporters that, in terms of QB skill, there was no contest - Orton was the best QB they had. Yet a few weeks in, Orton stinks, and they bow to fan demands to play Tebow. The inmates are running the asylum.

Now, I understand that sometimes you get a guy who can really rise to the occasion, despite looking not so great in practice. Maybe guys who need real game pressure to perform their best. And after the first week or so, Tebow looked to be one of those guys. After this past week vs. Detroit, though, it appears he's reverting to his mean ability ... which may not be enough to play QB in this league.

Still, the guy is dedicated and, with the right instruction, I bet he could learn to be a decent QB ... or at least, be a contributor in some way. Perhaps he could wander in the desert / play in the Arena league, honing his skill for a few years, like Kurt Warner.

[Duvall]

I think a big part of the hype is that he led Florida (isn't this correct?) to 2 national championships as a college quarterback.

Well, he really only led them to one title.


Still, the guy is dedicated and, with the right instruction, I bet he could learn to be a decent QB ... or at least, be a contributor in some way. Perhaps he could wander in the desert / play in the Arena league, honing his skill for a few years, like Kurt Warner.

Tebow will never have the chops to be compared to Kurt Warner. No arm.

[MartyClark]

i like Tim Tebow. I like what he stands for. He has shown no evidence that he is an NFL quarterback. His throwing motion is awful. He has little accuracy. I wish him well but don't think he'll make it.

The Broncos have become a terrible organization. The owner is rumored to have significant medical issues that impair his ability to run the organization. They gave away their best receiver, Brandon Lloyd, for a 5th round draft choice. They have 3 quarterbacks and none of them can play. Unfortunately they have won two games, probably playing themselves out of the "Suck for Luck" sweepstakes.

It's not a good time to be a football fan in Colorado. My beloved Buffaloes are woeful. Thank God for Duke basketball.

[Olympic Fan]

I think a big part of the hype is that he led Florida (isn't this correct?) to 2 national championships as a college quarterback.

He was the primary quarterback for one national title.

As a freshman, he played a small role on a another national championship team. He was used very much like Duke uses Boone -- as a short-yardage/scoring zone package. But their primary QB that year was Chris Leak. While much, MUCH more successful than this Duke team, it would not be unfair to equate Leak to Renfree and Tebow to Boone (at least in terms of how they were used that season).

Frankly, I don't understand why Tebow is so deified ... he had essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch, a similar run/pass QB who won the 2000 Heisman trophy at Nebraska and barely missed winning the national title in his senior year. I don't remember anything like the same hysteria for Crouch, who was a very similar player to Tebow. In fact, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that he was given a decent signing bonus by the Rams to play wide receiver ... but he got hurt and returned the bonus, even though he didn't have do. Seems like a standup guy.

[Indoor66]

Frankly, I don't understand why Tebow is so deified ... he had essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch, a similar run/pass QB who won the 2000 Heisman trophy at Nebraska and barely missed winning the national title in his senior year. I don't remember anything like the same hysteria for Crouch, who was a very similar player to Tebow. In fact, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that he was given a decent signing bonus by the Rams to play wide receiver ... but he got hurt and returned the bonus, even though he didn't have do. Seems like a standup guy.

A great U of Florida publicity machine.

[Genedoc]

He was the primary quarterback for one national title.

As a freshman, he played a small role on a another national championship team. He was used very much like Duke uses Boone -- as a short-yardage/scoring zone package. But their primary QB that year was Chris Leak. While much, MUCH more successful than this Duke team, it would not be unfair to equate Leak to Renfree and Tebow to Boone (at least in terms of how they were used that season).

Frankly, I don't understand why Tebow is so deified ... he had essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch, a similar run/pass QB who won the 2000 Heisman trophy at Nebraska and barely missed winning the national title in his senior year. I don't remember anything like the same hysteria for Crouch, who was a very similar player to Tebow. In fact, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that he was given a decent signing bonus by the Rams to play wide receiver ... but he got hurt and returned the bonus, even though he didn't have do. Seems like a standup guy.
Because he and his acolytes deified him.

The first time the guy yapped about how hard of a worker he was/was going to be/is, I tuned out. I know a lot of awfully hard working individuals, and not one of them has ever actually told me how hard they work. They simply do it. The people who tell you how hard they work are the ones trying to convince themselves with their words. The guy who tells you how many hours he spent preparing is useless; the dude who simply shows up and kicks butt gets recognized.

And THAT'S why NFL players almost universally hate the dude. There are other religious players and coaches who aren't hated. There are other white players and coaches who aren't hated. It's that the guy calls attention to himself with is little pose, and tells you repeatedly how hard he works, and how he works harder than anyone else, ever, ever, ever has or will. Anyone watch the E60 piece on him? The 10th time he commented about how humble he was and how hard he was going to work and how he was going to work harder than everyone else I turned it off. That's arrogance, plain and simple. If you really think you're going to work harder than anyone else that's ever done your job, you should at least be smart enough to not say a word and simply do it.

My $.02.

[cspan37421]

Because he and his acolytes deified him.

The first time the guy yapped about how hard of a worker he was/was going to be/is, I tuned out. I know a lot of awfully hard working individuals, and not one of them has ever actually told me how hard they work. They simply do it. The people who tell you how hard they work are the ones trying to convince themselves with their words. The guy who tells you how many hours he spent preparing is useless; the dude who simply shows up and kicks butt gets recognized.

And THAT'S why NFL players almost universally hate the dude. There are other religious players and coaches who aren't hated. There are other white players and coaches who aren't hated. It's that the guy calls attention to himself with is little pose, and tells you repeatedly how hard he works, and how he works harder than anyone else, ever, ever, ever has or will. Anyone watch the E60 piece on him? The 10th time he commented about how humble he was and how hard he was going to work and how he was going to work harder than everyone else I turned it off. That's arrogance, plain and simple. If you really think you're going to work harder than anyone else that's ever done your job, you should at least be smart enough to not say a word and simply do it.

My $.02.

Well, his Broncos teammates seem to not hate him (at least, before the Lions game). While I get your point about his constant talking about himself, maybe he did need to work harder than most to have the kind of success he's had ... especially if it's true that he has little talent for the QB position. I'm not a fan of his, but I can see how he might be saying all that to motivate himself and be oblivious to how it sounds to others, esp. those not on his team.

[Stray Gator]

He was the primary quarterback for one national title.

As a freshman, he played a small role on a another national championship team. He was used very much like Duke uses Boone -- as a short-yardage/scoring zone package. But their primary QB that year was Chris Leak. While much, MUCH more successful than this Duke team, it would not be unfair to equate Leak to Renfree and Tebow to Boone (at least in terms of how they were used that season).

Frankly, I don't understand why Tebow is so deified ... he had essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch, a similar run/pass QB who won the 2000 Heisman trophy at Nebraska and barely missed winning the national title in his senior year. I don't remember anything like the same hysteria for Crouch, who was a very similar player to Tebow. In fact, I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that he was given a decent signing bonus by the Rams to play wide receiver ... but he got hurt and returned the bonus, even though he didn't have do. Seems like a standup guy.

I'm not going to wade in here to defend Tim Tebow against the overwhelming negative sentiment. But to say that he had "essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch" is a real stretch. Crouch had a total of 88 career TDs; Tebow (who, unlike Crouch, did not start as a freshman) had that many career passing TDs--and Tebow had another 57 TDs rushing. Crouch set the career total offense record at Nebraska with 7915 yards; Tebow's career total offense record was 12,233 yards. As for Tebow's passing ability, his career completion percentage at UF was 67.1% and his QB rating was 176.0. By comparison, Crouch completed 51.5% of his passes and had a rating of 121.1. I don't know what other credentials you had in mind, but I hardly think it's fair to say based on those commonly recognized categories for comparison that they were "essentially the same."

[Wander]

I'm not going to wade in here to defend Tim Tebow against the overwhelming negative sentiment. But to say that he had "essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch" is a real stretch. Crouch had a total of 88 career TDs; Tebow (who, unlike Crouch, did not start as a freshman) had that many career passing TDs--and Tebow had another 57 TDs rushing. Crouch set the career total offense record at Nebraska with 7915 yards; Tebow's career total offense record was 12,233 yards. As for Tebow's passing ability, his career completion percentage at UF was 67.1% and his QB rating was 176.0. By comparison, Crouch completed 51.5% of his passes and had a rating of 121.1. I don't know what other credentials you had in mind, but I hardly think it's fair to say based on those commonly recognized categories for comparison that they were "essentially the same."

I agree, and I don't like the comparison to the Duke quarterbacks, even from a qualitative "I'm not saying they're as good" standpoint. Our usually outstanding coaching staff uses Boone out of some sort of odd mentality that says it's inherently good to be playing two quarterbacks in a game. Meyer used Tebow his freshman year because he was too talented to keep entirely on the bench. Think of it this way - if you have Tebow and Boone swap places, Cutcliffe would still be playing two quarterbacks, whereas Meyer would only be playing Chris Leak.

I understand the frustration with the deification of the guy for his personality, NFL ability, religion, and supposed work ethic. But his college career on the football field is the one place he deserved the hype.

[BD80]

I'm not going to wade in here to defend Tim Tebow against the overwhelming negative sentiment. But to say that he had "essentially the same credentials coming out of college as Eric Crouch" is a real stretch. Crouch had a total of 88 career TDs; Tebow (who, unlike Crouch, did not start as a freshman) had that many career passing TDs--and Tebow had another 57 TDs rushing. Crouch set the career total offense record at Nebraska with 7915 yards; Tebow's career total offense record was 12,233 yards. As for Tebow's passing ability, his career completion percentage at UF was 67.1% and his QB rating was 176.0. By comparison, Crouch completed 51.5% of his passes and had a rating of 121.1. I don't know what other credentials you had in mind, but I hardly think it's fair to say based on those commonly recognized categories for comparison that they were "essentially the same."

It wouldn't be much of an exaggeration, if any, to say that Tebow played with better talent at Florida than he currently plays with at Denver. His offensive line was certainly better (two Pounceys and Gilbert Marcus - current starting tackle for the Steelers, current Redskin G Maurice Hurt and Saint G Carl Johnson). Garo Yepremian could have rushed for 30+ tds behind that line. As for passing, all Tebow had to do was throw a 10 yd pass to current pros Percy Harvin, Riley Cooper, Aaron Hernandez, David Nelson or Louis Murphy, and get credit for a 50 yd td.

[Mal]

It wouldn't be much of an exaggeration, if any, to say that Tebow played with better talent at Florida than he currently plays with at Denver. His offensive line was certainly better (two Pounceys and Gilbert Marcus - current starting tackle for the Steelers, current Redskin G Maurice Hurt and Saint G Carl Johnson). Garo Yepremian could have rushed for 30+ tds behind that line. As for passing, all Tebow had to do was throw a 10 yd pass to current pros Percy Harvin, Riley Cooper, Aaron Hernandez, David Nelson or Louis Murphy, and get credit for a 50 yd td.

Good point. Although I don't dispute stray and wander's general point that the dude was a fantastically successful college quarterback and racked up some ridiculous collegiate numbers, that talent discrepency had to have factored in to some degree.

You meant "better talent" in a relative sense, though, right? As in better talent at Florida compared to other NCAA teams they played, not better talent at Florida straight up against the 2011 Broncos? The Broncos, as woeful as they are relative to other NFL teams right now, are still a pro team. Knowshon Moreno, Willis McGahee, Eddie Royal, and Demaryius Thomas were all fairly good in college, too. ;) Heck, Eric Decker, who's just recently cracked the starting lineup for Denver, led the Big Ten in receptions, yards and receiving TD's as a junior.

[Stray Gator]

Tebow also set the Florida high school passing record before he entered college. I don't understand why people want to discredit Tebow. I watched him play for four years at UF and can assure you he threw plenty of deep outs, crossing patterns, and long bombs, with excellent accuracy. His teammates liked him, and he devoted a lot of his time to good deeds, usually without fanfare. Tebow hate seems to me a lot like Duke hate. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[BD80]

... You meant "better talent" in a relative sense, though, right? As in better talent at Florida compared to other NCAA teams they played, not better talent at Florida straight up against the 2011 Broncos? The Broncos, as woeful as they are relative to other NFL teams right now, are still a pro team. Knowshon Moreno, Willis McGahee, Eddie Royal, and Demaryius Thomas were all fairly good in college, too. ;) Heck, Eric Decker, who's just recently cracked the starting lineup for Denver, led the Big Ten in receptions, yards and receiving TD's as a junior.

Generally yes, it was relative - the Broncos would beat the Gators. However I think his offensive line and receivers at Florida were (are) superior to his current offensive line and receiver teammates with the Broncos.


Tebow also set the Florida high school passing record before he entered college. I don't understand why people want to discredit Tebow. I watched him play for four years at UF and can assure you he threw plenty of deep outs, crossing patterns, and long bombs, with excellent accuracy. His teammates liked him, and he devoted a lot of his time to good deeds, usually without fanfare. Tebow hate seems to me a lot like Duke hate. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I was merely pointing out that statistics are just part of the story. Tebow wasn't as good at UF as his stats would lead one to believe because his offense was unbelievably talented. Five of his linemen are in the pros - at least 3 are starting and one was an All-Pro as a ROOKIE at CENTER! Five of his receivers are in the pros, Harvin was the NFL rookie of the year in 2009-10 and made it to the pro-bowl. BTW Harvin was on the receiving end of 1900 yards of Tebow's passes, averaging over 14 yds per reception, and caught 13 of Tebow's td passes.

Nor is Tebow as bad as Denver is making him look. They are running a 5-7 step drop passing attack with a line that is just awful, and with receivers that simply can't get open, even in single coverage. I do believe Denver is setting Tebow up to fail so they can move on to acquire a more conventional quarterback of Elway's choosing without backlash from the fanbase.

[rthomas]

Tebow also set the Florida high school passing record before he entered college. I don't understand why people want to discredit Tebow. I watched him play for four years at UF and can assure you he threw plenty of deep outs, crossing patterns, and long bombs, with excellent accuracy. His teammates liked him, and he devoted a lot of his time to good deeds, usually without fanfare. Tebow hate seems to me a lot like Duke hate. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.


Tebow hate is nothing, nothing nothing at all like Duke hate. Tebow hate is more like Michelle Wie hate. Simply, both are people who have capitalized on their projected talents before proving anything at the pro level. Both should shutup and put up ,then make their money. Wie has actually done this. Maybe Tebow will, maybe not.

[Stray Gator]

Tebow hate is nothing, nothing nothing at all like Duke hate. Tebow hate is more like Michelle Wie hate. Simply, both are people who have capitalized on their projected talents before proving anything at the pro level. Both should shutup and put up ,then make their money. Wie has actually done this. Maybe Tebow will, maybe not.

Actually, I believe there are many similarities between Duke Hate and Tebow Hate. The typical Duke Haters resent Duke (and Duke players) for achieving success and earning championships in intercollegiate competition, and for winning "the right way" by playing hard while complying with the rules, and for conducting themselves honorably as student-athletes in a manner that their adult fans can be proud of and their younger fans can emulate--all of which makes the haters respond by insisting that Duke players are overhyped, that their "good guy" image is just a fabrication of the media, and that their success is undeserved. And of course there are those Duke Haters who revel in the fact that some of the Blue Devil players who were most celebrated and honored for their college stardom turned out to be far less successful in the pros. That sounds a lot like the comments I'm seeing here about Tebow.

[mph]

Actually, I believe there are many similarities between Duke Hate and Tebow Hate. The typical Duke Haters resent Duke (and Duke players) for achieving success and earning championships in intercollegiate competition, and for winning "the right way" by playing hard while complying with the rules, and for conducting themselves honorably as student-athletes in a manner that their adult fans can be proud of and their younger fans can emulate--all of which makes the haters respond by insisting that Duke players are overhyped, that their "good guy" image is just a fabrication of the media, and that their success is undeserved. And of course there are those Duke Haters who revel in the fact that some of the Blue Devil players who were most celebrated and honored for their college stardom turned out to be far less successful in the pros. That sounds a lot like the comments I'm seeing here about Tebow.

Well said. I like Mal's post back at the beginning of this thread and I'm not sure why so many smart people have a hard time distinguishing between Tebow and the media hype surrounding him. I don't believe he has the tools to be a successful NFL QB, and I did get a little irritated back in his UF days, constantly hearing about his heart, will to win, etc. But like Mal, I don't think he's done much to contribute to the hype, and like Stray, I don't see what's to hate about a guy who seems to be maximizing his talent and playing the game with integrity. He seems like a good guy to me and I wish him well as he pursues his NFL dream.

[Deslok]

To me the apt comparison for Tebow is Jeter. Both are/were very talented players who had some measure of success. But the vitriol that heads in their direction seems to stem from the overly fawning portrayal of them in the media. By the media hype, you'd think Tebow was the greatest football player of the last 30 years. Similarly, Jeter is portrayed as the greatest baseball player in a similar time frame. And the praise isn't undeserving, they were phenomenal performers. Its the overstatement that drives critics nuts. And when it then extends to portraying everything about the guy as the epitome of a player, that's when it brings out the hatred. Tebow has worked hard to get to where he is(to even be in the NFL is a pretty amazing accomplishment), but has he really worked harder than everyone else on every team he has been on? Tebow is by no means the first guy to take a knee and say a prayer after a big moment(historically, a not uncommon action after scoring a touchdown), but the media focus on it makes others want to mock it.

[weezie]

To me the apt comparison for Tebow is Jeter.

Oh man Des, you certainly are a brave soul! I think the Yankee fans here will soon be in touch.

Sidebar: we were in New Orleans this past weekend and of course rode the street car out St. Charles. Saw one house completely decorated with skeletons depicting various personalities, one of which was in the Tebow Kneel. Pretty funny.

[rthomas]

Actually, I believe there are many similarities between Duke Hate and Tebow Hate. The typical Duke Haters resent Duke (and Duke players) for achieving success and earning championships in intercollegiate competition, and for winning "the right way" by playing hard while complying with the rules, and for conducting themselves honorably as student-athletes in a manner that their adult fans can be proud of and their younger fans can emulate--all of which makes the haters respond by insisting that Duke players are overhyped, that their "good guy" image is just a fabrication of the media, and that their success is undeserved. And of course there are those Duke Haters who revel in the fact that some of the Blue Devil players who were most celebrated and honored for their college stardom turned out to be far less successful in the pros. That sounds a lot like the comments I'm seeing here about Tebow.


Duke hate = the epitome of success hate in your area of expertise = NY Yankees and the Dallas Cowboys (in the America's team days).

Tebow hate = overhyped and too many commercials, writing books, etc. before you have reached the epitome of success in your area = Michelle Wie hate.

[JasonEvans]

Tebow and Jeter... naaah, I don't even begin to see that. I am no Yankee lover, but Jeter is an incredibly accomplished and successful pro. Tebow is a total bust as a pro so far and his only accomplishments have come at the amateur level.

Tebow and Wie... now that is a good comparison. Different sports and different levels of interest in the sports, but they both seem to have been hyped massively as amateurs and then struggled to live up to billing as pros.

Tebow hate and Duke hate... I guess I see it a little bit.

-Jason "loved this Tebowing image" Evans
2115

[A-Tex Devil]

Well said. I like Mal's post back at the beginning of this thread and I'm not sure why so many smart people have a hard time distinguishing between Tebow and the media hype surrounding him. I don't believe he has the tools to be a successful NFL QB, and I did get a little irritated back in his UF days, constantly hearing about his heart, will to win, etc. But like Mal, I don't think he's done much to contribute to the hype, and like Stray, I don't see what's to hate about a guy who seems to be maximizing his talent and playing the game with integrity. He seems like a good guy to me and I wish him well as he pursues his NFL dream.

This is exactly how I feel. There is a lot of frustration that he is held at a higher plane than lots of athletes who are more talented and work hard or harder and simply don't talk about it. That said, the way Tebow expresses himself is fine by me. He's not denigrating others, he's just talking about what HE is doing to make himself better. I would say the "hate" is as much the people that put him on a pedestal than anything else.

As a college player, he's almost peerless, though. But if you want to get a Gator fan's goat, tell them they probably WOULD have won the national championship in '09 had Tebow left and they let Cam Newton take the reins. It's speculative, but after Auburn's year last year, it's certainly worthy of discussion. That said, I don't know a Gator fan that would have had it any other way, and I can't blame them.

[Mal]

Actually, I believe there are many similarities between Duke Hate and Tebow Hate. The typical Duke Haters resent Duke (and Duke players) for achieving success and earning championships in intercollegiate competition, and for winning "the right way" by playing hard while complying with the rules, and for conducting themselves honorably as student-athletes in a manner that their adult fans can be proud of and their younger fans can emulate.

I disagree with this. My psychoanalysis from afar of the average Duke hater has always come to the conclusion that it's not that we win "the right way" that causes the resentment (because, really, who in a vacuum would object to that?). It's the frequency with which everyone's told that we win the right way. Which could be taken as an implication that no other program, including theirs, does things the right way. Thereby lumping their school in with Kentucky and UConn with no nuance. (That said, I can see the argument that Duke hating for Kentucky fans for instance is some weird projection of their own jealousy of our competing with them in terms of on court success without having to shave every corner like they do. But that's not the case for average Iowa or Washington fan). There's also the simple frequency with which they have to see us taking up the airwaves. Duke's probably been the most successful college basketball program of the last 25 years, but not by so much that in the minds of most that justifies having our every early season non-con game on ESPN in prime time. This is no different than the old Notre Dame hatred, which I'll admit to partaking in heavily in my younger days: yeah, they had more winning tradition than others, but why should that mean every single game gets national coverage to the exclusion of my team?

Where I lose patience with the Duke hate is when it spills over from being media-based rage to being directed at our players and fans. Like it's our fault Dick Vitale is such a buffoon. In that way, I see your analogy a bit. The hating on Tebow as a person is fairly hard to justify and is more than likely just a spilling over of annoyance at the sports media machine. I should note that there are some grounds, namely the overt displays of religion and the in your face Superbowl ad from last year, but in the grand scheme, those are pretty small things compared to, you know, running a dogfighting ring or whatever.

[BD80]

Duke hate = the epitome of success hate in your area of expertise = NY Yankees and the Dallas Cowboys (in the America's team days). ...

Sorry, the Cowboys don't quite fit - they've always been behind the Steelers. In fact, the "America's Team" moniker is right up there with the Tebow hype.

Of course, we Steeler fans do tend to see the world in black and gold.

[throatybeard]

Michelle Wie is a lot hotter than Tebow. Just saying is all.

I find most comparisons of Duke to professional franchises facile and spurious. Despite the fact that amateurism is a hoax, Universities and professional sports organizations are quite different animals.

Cam Newton might be better at what Tebow did. He just didn't do it as long. And now, he's apparently doing something Tebow can't or that Tebow needs some time to figure out. Hell, Tebow's only started a few games. Give the dweeb some time and see what happens.

[A-Tex Devil]

Cam Newton might be better at what Tebow did. He just didn't do it as long. And now, he's apparently doing something Tebow can't or that Tebow needs some time to figure out. Hell, Tebow's only started a few games. Give the dweeb some time and see what happens.

I'll give Tebow this -- go back and look at his game against the Texans last year where he had >300 yards on like 16 completions. The Texans had a historically bad pass defense last year, but they did have a good defensive line, so it wasn't like Tebow was hanging out in the pocket waiting for the receivers to get open.

One could use a bastardized version of the transitive property to postulate that if Tebow had anything resembling adequate skill position play around him, that the game against the Texans is emblematic of what he might be capable of against the league at large. Denver's sub-par receivers torched Houston's historically bad defensive backfield, and Tebow was able to take advantage. Perhaps with very good to great skill position players, he could do the same against most of the league?

I'm not even playing devil's advocate here, nor am I a Tebow fan. But man, do his weapons suck, and that should certainly be taken into account.

[duke09hms]

Duke hate = the epitome of success hate in your area of expertise = NY Yankees and the Dallas Cowboys (in the America's team days).

Tebow hate = overhyped and too many commercials, writing books, etc. before you have reached the epitome of success in your area = Michelle Wie hate.

1. Did Tebow not achieve extraordinarily great success in college football, to the level of Duke college basketball? His achievements are then deserving of publicity.

2. Isn't hating on him because "he sucks in the pros" (btw only a few games/small sample size, terrible receivers/supporting cast) similar to those who hate on Duke players who "suck in the pros" and claim them to be overhyped as well?

3. He hasn't really sought out the publicity or looked to hype himself up. He answers questions honestly. If you dislike the hype, blame our modern media.

[Stray Gator]

A column published yesterday, pertinent to the issues being discussed in this thread, that I'll post without further comment:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Tim-Tebow-why-the-heck-do-we-hate-him-110211

[JG Nothing]

A column published yesterday, pertinent to the issues being discussed in this thread, that I'll post without further comment:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Tim-Tebow-why-the-heck-do-we-hate-him-110211

Engel should stick to writing about sports (or whatever she does) instead of playing amateur sociologist. It is not that unusual for players to honor God on the field (e.g. making the sign of the cross or looking up to the sky and pointing). How come these players are not mocked? As for the claim that you "cannot mock Muslim faith," I am not so sure that is true (ever listen to Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck?). Moreover, if we do tolerate the mockery of Christianity more than Islam, then there are more insightful reasons and analyses than Engel is capable of providing.

[cspan37421]

I would very much like to comment but I fear we'll veer off into PPB and other controversial territory.

I'll just say I am a fan of Stray Gator's posts, generally, and while I appreciate the link, I didn't think highly of the reasoning in the article. I'll have to leave it at that.

[moonpie23]

there's a real problem with the point of her article...

"What if Tim Tebow were a Muslim?"

i'm pretty sure if tebow showed up at a game with PRAISE ALLAH under his eyes and actually DID bow to mecca to celebrate a play, the broncos stadium would be empty the following week and the press would be DEFENDING tebow's right to his own opinion, while the typical american football fan would be calling for his ban from the NFL...

[cspan37421]

According to anonymous Player X in ESPN Magazine, the decision to play Tebow (and trade away Brandon Lloyd) may well reflect a "suck for Luck" strategy by one retired stud Stanford QB to get another. Food for thought. So rather than a cowardly bow to fan demand, it's perhaps a shrewd strategy.

[Clipsfan]

According to anonymous Player X in ESPN Magazine, the decision to play Tebow (and trade away Brandon Lloyd) may well reflect a "suck for Luck" strategy by one retired stud Stanford QB to get another. Food for thought. So rather than a cowardly bow to fan demand, it's perhaps a shrewd strategy.

The problem with that strategy is that a couple teams are way ahead of them in the suck for luck race

[Stray Gator]

The problem with that strategy is that a couple teams are way ahead of them in the suck for luck race

If the Denver coaches had persisted in using an offensive game plan that required Tebow to act as a pure pocket passer, similar to the approach we saw against Detroit last week, then perhaps there might have been reason to question their true objective. But to the encouragement of those who would like to see Tebow and the Broncos have a legitimate chance to succeed, the coaches installed a read-option game plan that better suited Tebow's skills, which everyone recognizes are not nearly up to the prototypical NFL QB level. As a result, he was able to employ a run-pass option that created enough space in the Raiders' defense for both Tebow and McGahee to gain more than 100 yards each on the ground, and bought him time to connect on a pair of TD passes covering more than 20 yards (both of which, it should be noted, were tight spirals thrown with good zip and accuracy), while suffering only 1 sack and no interceptions.

The Broncos are now 2-1 in Tebow's 3 starts this season. Granted, wins against Miami and Oakland, even on the road, can't be regarded as harbingers of glory. And granted, those wins must fairly be credited as a team effort. But I'm glad to see Tebow getting an opportunity to develop and make progress, however modest, so that he may earn at least some measure of respect for his efforts, especially given the merciless criticism he has received from so many skeptics. I don't think he's ever going to win over Elway, and he may never improve his pocket passing skills to the point that he can become a consistently successful QB in the NFL. But I don't understand why anyone would wish to see him fail.

[rthomas]

If the Denver coaches had persisted in using an offensive game plan that required Tebow to act as a pure pocket passer, similar to the approach we saw against Detroit last week, then perhaps there might have been reason to question their true objective. But to the encouragement of those who would like to see Tebow and the Broncos have a legitimate chance to succeed, the coaches installed a read-option game plan that better suited Tebow's skills, which everyone recognizes are not nearly up to the prototypical NFL QB level. As a result, he was able to employ a run-pass option that created enough space in the Raiders' defense for both Tebow and McGahee to gain more than 100 yards each on the ground, and bought him time to connect on a pair of TD passes covering more than 20 yards (both of which, it should be noted, were tight spirals thrown with good zip and accuracy), while suffering only 1 sack and no interceptions.

The Broncos are now 2-1 in Tebow's 3 starts this season. Granted, wins against Miami and Oakland, even on the road, can't be regarded as harbingers of glory. And granted, those wins must fairly be credited as a team effort. But I'm glad to see Tebow getting an opportunity to develop and make progress, however modest, so that he may earn at least some measure of respect for his efforts, especially given the merciless criticism he has received from so many skeptics. I don't think he's ever going to win over Elway, and he may never improve his pocket passing skills to the point that he can become a consistently successful QB in the NFL. But I don't understand why anyone would wish to see him fail.

All I know is that I picked up an injured Willis McGahee in late October and yesterday he had 163 RuYd, 2 RuTD (60,24) to give me 33 points.

[77devil]

But I don't understand why anyone would wish to see him fail.

You mean other than the fact that he was a Gator. But seriously, it seems as irrational as the Duke hate we know so well. I'm sure sociologists have a pathology to explain it. Tebow's best course of action under the circumstances is to keep as low a profile as possible.

[JasonEvans]

All I know is that I picked up an injured Willis McGahee in late October and yesterday he had 163 RuYd, 2 RuTD (60,24) to give me 33 points.

I've had MaGahee all season. I actually benched him yesterday because I figured the Denver offense would struggle so mightily.

I am going to lose my FFootball game by about 10 points... I would be cruising to a win if I had started him.

-Jason "grrr" Evans

[throatybeard]

I've had MaGahee all season. I actually benched him yesterday because I figured the Denver offense would struggle so mightily.

I am going to lose my FFootball game by about 10 points... I would be cruising to a win if I had started him.

-Jason "grrr" Evans

In the league where I'm playing you, my optimal lineup still beats yours with McGahee by 13, almost 14 points

[BD80]

In the league where I'm playing you, my optimal lineup still beats yours with McGahee by 13, almost 14 points

Sort of the antithesis of the humility attributed to Tebow.

Would this be Tefauxing?

[SupaDave]

In the league where I'm playing you, my optimal lineup still beats yours with McGahee by 13, almost 14 points

Funny! Even funnier is that Tebow even has a thread at the DBR. He's omnipresent! It's insane. If Jay Cutler has got ice water in his veins then Tebow has holy water in his. Sure - the Broncos are gonna take more losses but they traded away his #1 WR and he lost his offensive coordinator. Who's on the Broncos Def again? Man Tebow has got some real challenges with that Broncos squad. I can remember when Cutler AND Orton were both at LEAST as bad as Tebow - without the rushing yards and TDs. I think the kid will stick around.

[JasonEvans]

In the league where I'm playing you, my optimal lineup still beats yours with McGahee by 13, almost 14 points

I was merely talking about my last minute decision to stupidly play Ogbonnaya instead of MaGahee. I would have netted 26.2 extra points by going with MaGahee, which would have been enough for a small win.

-Jason "we are both 5-4, but thanks to my higher total point total, I'm in 3rd place and you are in 6th" Evans

[Stray Gator]

I would very much like to comment but I fear we'll veer off into PPB and other controversial territory.

I'll just say I am a fan of Stray Gator's posts, generally, and while I appreciate the link, I didn't think highly of the reasoning in the article. I'll have to leave it at that.

FWIW, I didn't mean to convey the impression that I was endorsing the reasoning of the article, only that the content was of interest in relation to the issues being discussed in this thread. Here's another article--this one from today's NY Times--that provides what I believe is an interesting analysis regarding the effect of Tebow's overt religiousness on the highly polarized sentiments towards him among the media and fans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/sports/football/in-tebow-debate-a-clash-of-faith-and-football.html?_r=2&hp

[killerleft]

Tebow leads Denver on a 95-yard drive, running for over 50 yards including 20 for the win against the Jets with less than a minute left.

He may or may not be an NFL-quality quarterback, but being Tim Tebow seems to be all that's necessary. What a guy!

[A-Tex Devil]

Tebow leads Denver on a 95-yard drive, running for over 50 yards including 20 for the win against the Jets with less than a minute left.

He may or may not be an NFL-quality quarterback, but being Tim Tebow seems to be all that's necessary. What a guy!

Congrats to Tebow. He's winning. THat's better than guys like Philip Rivers are doing. But the next step is winning a game where his defense isn't lights out. The Denver defense deserves 5x as much credit as anyone on its offense in these Tebow wins.

And, if he can get to 30-17 as a starter, he'll be as good as Vince Young!! :p

[SoCalDukeFan]

The Denver defense played great against the Jets. Not sure if that is their norm but they played well.

If your defense plays great and you don't turn it over, then you always have a chance to win. Tebow does not turn it over. The Denver offense burns clock and reduces the other teams chances to score. The offense with Tebow running is different than anyone else so the defense is never comfortable.

I know Denver won a game with a miracle comeback, but basically I think they have a tough time coming back.

Tebow is certainly not a typical NFL QB but he made few bad mistakes last night. Its one thing to miss your receiver and throw an incomplete, another to throw a Pick 6 as Sanchez did.

The running back injury also hurt the Jets and it forced Joe McKnight to have to do more than he is capable.

SoCal

[Matches]

Tebow would be getting picked left and right if he was playing in a typical NFL offense. Accuracy is, to be kind, not his strong suit.

... which is one of the big reasons he's playing in an offense specifically tailored to the things he does well.

[jamesfrommaiden]

I could care less if he is or is not a legit NFL QB. I don't care about his religous convictions. I just know Tim Tebow is fantasy gold baby...

[Verga3]

Denver again in OT, tonight. Tim is a winner because of his belief (which he infuses in his teammates) and because he is completely unafraid. Technique and mechanics be damned...give me this guy on my team...win or lose.

[tommy]

Tim is a winner because of his belief . . .

And you know that how, exactly?
And you also know that Tebow's "belief" is stronger than his opponents' beliefs . . . how, exactly?

[Verga3]

And you know that how, exactly?
And you also know that Tebow's "belief" is stronger than his opponents' beliefs . . . how, exactly?

His belief and confidence in himself and his teammates is well-documented. What are you referring to?

[tommy]

His belief and confidence in himself and his teammates is well-documented. What are you referring to?

When you said that "Tim is a winner because of his belief" it sounded like you were saying that Tebow's team is winning because of his religious beliefs, or at least that those religious beliefs are somehow a factor in his team's recent success. Apparently that's not what you meant.

Be that as it may, what causes you to say that Denver is winning because of Tebow's belief and confidence in himself and his teammates? Do you think his belief and confidence in himself and his teammates is greater than the beliefs in himself and the team that are held by Philip Rivers? Darrelle Revis? Rex Ryan? Hue Jackson? Brandon Marshall? Why would you think that Tebow's belief in himself is greater than the right guard of the Seattle Seahawks, whoever that is? Just because Tebow's belief in himself is "well-documented" by the media doesn't mean that it actually exceeds anyone else's, does it?

[Matches]

Yup - I think that's the reason for the Tebow hate in a nutshell. When Tebow's team wins, it's not because they ran faster, or hit harder, or played better defense than the opposition. It's because Tebow is a good person - and by implication, a better person than anyone else on the field.

THAT's the storyline that people resent.

[Stray Gator]

Yup - I think that's the reason for the Tebow hate in a nutshell. When Tebow's team wins, it's not because they ran faster, or hit harder, or played better defense than the opposition. It's because Tebow is a good person - and by implication, a better person than anyone else on the field.

THAT's the storyline that people resent.

I don't think you'll hear that storyline from Tim Tebow or his longtime fans, because those who have observed him since he came out of high school--and, most tellingly, those who have played football with him--understand that Tebow credits the team effort for every win, is the first to take the blame for any loss, and is far from being a selfish, egotistical person. It sounds more like a storyline being pushed by (a) those who dislike him and want to make others dislike him; or (b) those who want to exploit his success and his religious faith to promote their own agendas.

I believe that what Tebow brings is simply an exceptional combination of work ethic and desire to win that inspires and motivates his teammates to play harder and have confidence in their ability to ultimately prevail. Those who have played competitive team sports will understand that sometimes there is a teammate who, through sheer dogged determination and a refusal to accept defeat, gets everyone else to believe that giving that extra effort can enable them to persist and overcome adversities that would cause less motivated players to stop pushing themselves as hard. No one disputes that there are players like that on other teams as well. I can even recall a few like that who played basketball at Duke. :)I think the reason Tebow is getting more attention for it is because he is a second-year player who has been panned by the experts as lacking NFL-caliber talent and is the object of much scorn and resentment for his positive public image, which many people either resent or refuse to accept as genuine.

[Indoor66]

I don't think you'll hear that storyline from Tim Tebow or his longtime fans, because those who have observed him since he came out of high school--and, most tellingly, those who have played football with him--understand that Tebow credits the team effort for every win, is the first to take the blame for any loss, and is far from being a selfish, egotistical person. It sounds more like a storyline being pushed by (a) those who dislike him and want to make others dislike him; or (b) those who want to exploit his success and his religious faith to promote their own agendas.

I believe that what Tebow brings is simply an exceptional combination of work ethic and desire to win that inspires and motivates his teammates to play harder and have confidence in their ability to ultimately prevail. Those who have played competitive team sports will understand that sometimes there is a teammate who, through sheer dogged determination and a refusal to accept defeat, gets everyone else to believe that giving that extra effort can enable them to persist and overcome adversities that would cause less motivated players to stop pushing themselves as hard. No one disputes that there are players like that on other teams as well. I can even recall a few like that who played basketball at Duke. :)I think the reason Tebow is getting more attention for it is because he is a second-year player who has been panned by the experts as lacking NFL-caliber talent and is the object of much scorn and resentment for his positive public image, which many people either resent or refuse to accept as genuine.

I agree with you Stray. I have seen Tebow since his freshman year and have lived around many Gator, Miami (the U) and Florida State fans for years. I have seen the adulation by the Gator fans and the derision by the others. But watching Tebow without having a dog in the fight, I see him to be an incredibly motivated, enthusiastic and dedicated athlete with the ability to impart those qualities in his teammates. I don't know how he does it, but those around him seem always to play better than they do without him.

He has unusual personal qualities, for whatever reason, and to dislike him because he is serious, has an abiding faith or works hard is ridiculous.

[Matches]

He has unusual personal qualities, for whatever reason, and to dislike him because he is serious, has an abiding faith or works hard is ridiculous.

I don't think anyone dislikes him for those reasons. (Well, maybe "anyone" is overstating it - someone somewhere probably does, but I don't believe those numbers to be significant.)

I think people dislike him because they're tired of being *told* that he is or does those things.

It's very much like Duke hate, often rationalized as "they hate us because we're successful." There's more to it than that.

[Indoor66]

There's more to it than that.

Please expand on the "more" that there is to it.

[Matches]

Please expand on the "more" that there is to it.

Sure. See my post above, in part.

I can give you a laundry list of teams and players who are successful but who are not "hated" - of course there are always individuals who hate on any particular team/ player but, for example, "Aaron Rodgers Hate" isn't a national phenomenon. I'm sure someone somewhere hates the guy but it's not a "thing" like Tebow Hate is.

So why Tebow? Is it because he's religious? Again, there are dozens if not hundreds of NFL and other players who wear their faith on their sleeves, but no one blinks.

I agree with Stray's post above that Tebow, when interviewed, invariably deflects praise away from himself and toward his teammates. His fans, though, are another story - they do everything short of deifying the guy. The media is complicit - when the Broncos win the narrative is "Tebow, Broncos Win." Even if Tebow played poorly, he "found a way to win" or "inspired his teammates to play well." And when his team wins, inevitably it's trumpeted as being the result of Tebow's hard work. The implication is that other players don't work as hard as Tebow does, and that's at best unknowable, and at worst demonstrably false.

If the guy makes a play to win a game or leads an important drive, by all means give him props. He's done it a few times, and he actually played quite well yesterday. Too often, though, the narrative is "Tebow won because he's such a good person" - and that's insulting to all the *other* good people in the NFL.

[A-Tex Devil]

Tim Tebow has shown that he is a competent NFL game manager that throws enough wrinkles at even good defenses (see the NY Jets) that he will get to the red zone at least 5 or 6 times a game such that his team is likely to end up in the 16-24 point range at the end of the game.

What I want to see next is for him to redeem himself for the Lions game. What happens when his defense isn't able to stop the other team and the option game is not an..... option? Looking at their schedule, the Pats and the Bills pose those challenges (although the Bills are falling apart). If the Bears get Cutler back, they may present a problem as well.

But looking at the schedule -- you could envision the Broncos finishing at 10-6, and if Tebow and the defense continue to play like they have been, they should at least be a 9-7 team. Tebow in the playoffs? Probably!

[Duvall]

I agree with Stray's post above that Tebow, when interviewed, invariably deflects praise away from himself and toward his teammates. His fans, though, are another story - they do everything short of deifying the guy.

Short of? (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-11-17/sports/sfl-tim-tebow-jesus-jersey-110911_1_nflshop-com-denver-broncos-quarterback-denver-post)

[Indoor66]

Sure. See my post above, in part.

I can give you a laundry list of teams and players who are successful but who are not "hated" - of course there are always individuals who hate on any particular team/ player but, for example, "Aaron Rodgers Hate" isn't a national phenomenon. I'm sure someone somewhere hates the guy but it's not a "thing" like Tebow Hate is.

So why Tebow? Is it because he's religious? Again, there are dozens if not hundreds of NFL and other players who wear their faith on their sleeves, but no one blinks.

I agree with Stray's post above that Tebow, when interviewed, invariably deflects praise away from himself and toward his teammates. His fans, though, are another story - they do everything short of deifying the guy. The media is complicit - when the Broncos win the narrative is "Tebow, Broncos Win." Even if Tebow played poorly, he "found a way to win" or "inspired his teammates to play well." And when his team wins, inevitably it's trumpeted as being the result of Tebow's hard work. The implication is that other players don't work as hard as Tebow does, and that's at best unknowable, and at worst demonstrably false.

If the guy makes a play to win a game or leads an important drive, by all means give him props. He's done it a few times, and he actually played quite well yesterday. Too often, though, the narrative is "Tebow won because he's such a good person" - and that's insulting to all the *other* good people in the NFL.

I still don't get it. Tebow doesn't write the articles or "promote" the conclusions. It seems the dislike for Tebow is because others complement him and because others write glowing things about him. He doesn't say he won because he is a good person, he says he won because of the play of his teammates. What is it about Tebow the man that you or others dislike?

[killerleft]

I don't think anyone dislikes him for those reasons. (Well, maybe "anyone" is overstating it - someone somewhere probably does, but I don't believe those numbers to be significant.)

I think people dislike him because they're tired of being *told* that he is or does those things.

It's very much like Duke hate, often rationalized as "they hate us because we're successful." There's more to it than that.

Still and yet, Tebow is not the one doing the telling. I'm far from a religious person, but it is easy to see that, for many people, his openness about his faith is what bothers them most. That his words have been twisted into knots and spun a different way by others is THEIR problem. And, for me, that's what makes his recent success so nice.

[Matches]

I still don't get it. Tebow doesn't write the articles or "promote" the conclusions. It seems the dislike for Tebow is because others complement him and because others write glowing things about him. He doesn't say he won because he is a good person, he says he won because of the play of his teammates. What is it about Tebow the man that you or others dislike?

I don't know Tebow the man. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy. Totally separate from my opinion of Tebow the Football Player.

I've heard Roy Williams is a great guy in private too. Sports hate is not the same as Personal hate.

[Indoor66]

I don't know Tebow the man. I'm sure he's a perfectly nice guy. Totally separate from my opinion of Tebow the Football Player.

I've heard Roy Williams is a great guy in private too. Sports hate is not the same as Personal hate.

Not picking on you, but it seems the Tebow hate is, somehow, different. He is getting killed over what OTHERS are saying about him. I just don't see the reason for the criticism or dislike that is so apparent in much that has been written.

I just don't get it. There must be something more than sports hate. It seems to me that the hate crosses too many lines.

(Please understand, I live in South Florida and have heard more about Tebow than I ever need to hear. I am not a Tebow lover or a Gator fan, I just am confused.)

[tommy]

Tim Tebow has shown that he is a competent NFL game manager that throws enough wrinkles at even good defenses (see the NY Jets) that he will get to the red zone at least 5 or 6 times a game such that his team is likely to end up in the 16-24 point range at the end of the game.

I don't know about that. In the six games that he's started, Denver has scored over 18 points only once, that being 38 against Oakland. The other 5 games: 18, 10, 17, 16, 16.

What Denver does have going for it is a weak closing schedule. Minnesota with a rookie QB. Chicago with a terrible backup QB. New England. At imploding Buffalo, and home to the Chiefs, also with a bad QB situation. 3 of the 5 are out of the playoff running so will have little incentive. So yes, I could certainly see Denver making the playoffs, though I still wouldn't bet on it.

[BD80]

I don't think you'll hear that storyline from Tim Tebow or his longtime fans, because those who have observed him since he came out of high school--and, most tellingly, those who have played football with him--understand that Tebow credits the team effort for every win, is the first to take the blame for any loss, and is far from being a selfish, egotistical person. It sounds more like a storyline being pushed by (a) those who dislike him and want to make others dislike him; or (b) those who want to exploit his success and his religious faith to promote their own agendas.

I believe that what Tebow brings is simply an exceptional combination of work ethic and desire to win that inspires and motivates his teammates to play harder and have confidence in their ability to ultimately prevail. Those who have played competitive team sports will understand that sometimes there is a teammate who, through sheer dogged determination and a refusal to accept defeat, gets everyone else to believe that giving that extra effort can enable them to persist and overcome adversities that would cause less motivated players to stop pushing themselves as hard. No one disputes that there are players like that on other teams as well. I can even recall a few like that who played basketball at Duke. :)I think the reason Tebow is getting more attention for it is because he is a second-year player who has been panned by the experts as lacking NFL-caliber talent and is the object of much scorn and resentment for his positive public image, which many people either resent or refuse to accept as genuine.

He makes sure he publicly thanks God at every occassion. He is drawing attention to himself, albeit for the purported reason of drawing attention to his faith, and thus drawing attention to God. He could choose to wait until he gets to the sidelines to "Tebow," or choose NOT to mention God in every interview, or even, GASP, choose NOT to do the optional interviews. I happen to believe in God, but don't appreciate Tebow telling everyone it is his duty to glorify God at every opportunity; like Jehova's Witnesses, such relentless proselytizing has a negative effect.

As for his "success," I think much of the credit should go to the defense, to the offensive line, and to Coach John Fox, who knows how to succeed with a running game in the NFL. Tebow is a valuable weapon, and he hasn't turned the ball over, but it he does not deserve the credit for the recent turnaround. More than the team coming around to Fox's ground game, the SCHEDULE is to blame for the turnaround. Prior to Tebow, the Broncos went 1-4 against four teams with winning records and one team with a losing record. Since Tebow, the Broncos have gone 5-1 against three teams with winning records and three teams with losing records. Moreover, one winning team "Tebow" beat was the Raiders, who were using a quarterback with just 2 weeks of practice in the offense after a year of not playing at all. The other winning team they beat was the Jets, who suck on the road and had a quarterback who was beaten by the Broncos D.

Oakland (7-4)
Lost 20-23

Cincinnati (7-4)
Won 24-22

@Tennessee (6-5)
Lost 14-17

@Green Bay (11-0)
Lost 23-49

San Diego (4-7)
Lost 24-29

Tebow Starts
@Miami (3-8)
Won 18-15 OT

Detroit (7-4)
Lost 10-45

@Oakland (7-4) Palmer’s 1st game
Won 38-24

@Kansas City (4-7)
Won 17-10

N.Y. Jets (6-5, 1-4 on road)
Won 17-13

@San Diego (4-7, 6th straight loss)
Won 16-13 OT

[SoCalDukeFan]

Denver has a very good defense. Tebow does not turn the ball over (1 interception this year as a starter). That formula wins games in the NFL.

Tebow seems like a great guy to me. He was not a prima donna last year and took all the hazing etc. He is a team player. I can't say that he inspires his teammates, but my guess is that love playing with him. He certainly is a winner.

I do not care about his religion one way or the other. I think he is fun to watch.

SoCal

[davekay1971]

Not picking on you, but it seems the Tebow hate is, somehow, different. He is getting killed over what OTHERS are saying about him. I just don't see the reason for the criticism or dislike that is so apparent in much that has been written.

I just don't get it. There must be something more than sports hate. It seems to me that the hate crosses too many lines.

(Please understand, I live in South Florida and have heard more about Tebow than I ever need to hear. I am not a Tebow lover or a Gator fan, I just am confused.)

But there really is a similarity to Duke hate. People who hate Duke don't hate us for anything our coach and players do or say. Oh, sure, they make up flimsy excuses like K "intimidating" the refs or assumptions of him cheating or whatever. But when you really pin down a Duke hater, other than the UNC fans who have the rivalry reason for hatred, invariably it boils down to some arm flapping and "I'm just sick of Dukie V and ESPN hyping them up every year."

Duke wasn't hated in 1992. We were fresh, we were a new story, and we were actually celebrated by everyone outside of the Chapel Hill crowd for winning the right way. We were a good guy story in college hoops, so much that Laettner and company had a Beatles-type aura. They were absolutely celebrities. Then they had the affront to win it again, they beat up a lovable-underdog Kentucky team and Laettner stepped on Aminu, and then, even more annoying, were back in the championship game in 1994. By the time 1995 came along, short-attention-span, easily-jaded America had had enough of Duke and, especially, Vitale et al telling them how great K and Duke were.

America doesn't hate winners. America hates being force-fed things. Duke gets that hate every year. Hansbrough got some of that hate until he disappeared in the NBA and became irrelevant. Tebow's getting it now.

Tebow doesn't actually have to say or do ANYTHING to get others to hate him. He's already done enough: four years of non-stop college hype and now more hype than his game or stats really have earned him in the NFL. People are basically sick of him already. He's a Mariah Carey song that's been played 5 times an hour for a month and you're ready to punch the radio every time it comes on again.

Addendum: I, myself, actually like what Tebow's doing. To me, he's interesting and worth supporting.

[A-Tex Devil]

I don't know about that. In the six games that he's started, Denver has scored over 18 points only once, that being 38 against Oakland. The other 5 games: 18, 10, 17, 16, 16.

What Denver does have going for it is a weak closing schedule. Minnesota with a rookie QB. Chicago with a terrible backup QB. New England. At imploding Buffalo, and home to the Chiefs, also with a bad QB situation. 3 of the 5 are out of the playoff running so will have little incentive. So yes, I could certainly see Denver making the playoffs, though I still wouldn't bet on it.

OK, I overstated it, but was trying to play nice.

And I had no idea the Raiders were 7-4. They have GB and Detroit coming up. Should be a heck of a fight among gimps between those two to get slaughtered in the first round of the playoffs by whoever gets 2nd in the AFC North.

[Verga3]

When you said that "Tim is a winner because of his belief" it sounded like you were saying that Tebow's team is winning because of his religious beliefs, or at least that those religious beliefs are somehow a factor in his team's recent success. Apparently that's not what you meant.

Be that as it may, what causes you to say that Denver is winning because of Tebow's belief and confidence in himself and his teammates? Do you think his belief and confidence in himself and his teammates is greater than the beliefs in himself and the team that are held by Philip Rivers? Darrelle Revis? Rex Ryan? Hue Jackson? Brandon Marshall? Why would you think that Tebow's belief in himself is greater than the right guard of the Seattle Seahawks, whoever that is? Just because Tebow's belief in himself is "well-documented" by the media doesn't mean that it actually exceeds anyone else's, does it?

Here's what I said: "Tim is a winner because of his belief (which he infuses in his teammates) and because he is completely unafraid. Technique and mechanics be damned...give me this guy on my team...win or lose."

It appears to me that Tim's belief in himself (wherever that comes from) and as a leader and catalyst for his team, is making a difference. His spiritual "beliefs" are certainly a part of who he is, so that's fantastic...but, this is about winning and competing in the NFL, not eternity (or whatever). Let's get off the religion thing and appreciate a football player, please.

Incidently, you should add Ndamukong Suh to your list. He also believes in himself, even when some others don't.

[moonpie23]

i don't dislike tebow, but he crossed the line with the scripture under the eyes.....pure, blatant BILLBOARD style relentless self promotion. Tebow may give all the credit in the world to his team mates, but that stunt crossed the line. Kneeling in prayer (or just plain thankfulness), pointing to the sky, etc are all just gestures. The billboard under the eyes INVITES scorn......he used that as a stunt...imho, NOT in spiritual faith....it was FLAUNTING...

if you thought that was awesome, just imagine him being a muslim and having "praise allah" painted under there...

[BD80]

i don't dislike tebow, but he crossed the line with the scripture under the eyes.....pure, blatant BILLBOARD style relentless self promotion. Tebow may give all the credit in the world to his team mates, but that stunt crossed the line. Kneeling in prayer (or just plain thankfulness), pointing to the sky, etc are all just gestures. The billboard under the eyes INVITES scorn......he used that as a stunt...imho, NOT in spiritual faith....it was FLAUNTING...
...

In a way, Tebowing is comparable to the buffoonish TD celebrations. Which brings me to ...

Boorish Steve Johnson for the Bills draws an excessive celebration penalty, which leads to a Jets TD, and then drops TWO passes that could have redeemed him.

It wasn't Johnson's pantomime of Plaxico shooting himself that drew the excessive celebration penalty, it was Johnson later dropping onto the ground on his back. Apparently, dropping to the ground is an automatic penalty.

How is Tebowing NOT a penalty if he drops to a knee on the ground?

[moonpie23]

How is Tebowing NOT a penalty if he drops to a knee on the ground?


umm....christians would complain?

[snowdenscold]

i don't dislike tebow, but he crossed the line with the scripture under the eyes.....pure, blatant BILLBOARD style relentless self promotion.

...he used that as a stunt...imho, NOT in spiritual faith....it was FLAUNTING...


(emphasis mine).
Is that true though? Or just your interpretation of it? I see where you're coming from, but am not sure it's definitive.

[brevity]

But there really is a similarity to Duke hate. People who hate Duke don't hate us for anything our coach and players do or say. Oh, sure, they make up flimsy excuses like K "intimidating" the refs or assumptions of him cheating or whatever. But when you really pin down a Duke hater, other than the UNC fans who have the rivalry reason for hatred, invariably it boils down to some arm flapping and "I'm just sick of Dukie V and ESPN hyping them up every year."

Duke wasn't hated in 1992. We were fresh, we were a new story, and we were actually celebrated by everyone outside of the Chapel Hill crowd for winning the right way. We were a good guy story in college hoops, so much that Laettner and company had a Beatles-type aura. They were absolutely celebrities. Then they had the affront to win it again, they beat up a lovable-underdog Kentucky team and Laettner stepped on Aminu, and then, even more annoying, were back in the championship game in 1994. By the time 1995 came along, short-attention-span, easily-jaded America had had enough of Duke and, especially, Vitale et al telling them how great K and Duke were.

America doesn't hate winners. America hates being force-fed things. Duke gets that hate every year. Hansbrough got some of that hate until he disappeared in the NBA and became irrelevant. Tebow's getting it now.

Tebow doesn't actually have to say or do ANYTHING to get others to hate him. He's already done enough: four years of non-stop college hype and now more hype than his game or stats really have earned him in the NFL. People are basically sick of him already. He's a Mariah Carey song that's been played 5 times an hour for a month and you're ready to punch the radio every time it comes on again.

Addendum: I, myself, actually like what Tebow's doing. To me, he's interesting and worth supporting.

Best post in this thread. Quoted it in its entirety to make sure everyone gets a chance to read it.

On a Duke board, I think the Tebow issue lingers because, unlike Hansbrough, he has the audacity to stay relevant in the pros. And really, that's all he needs to do in order for the media to continue force-feeding us.

I'm a Duke fan that has wished for a long time that Dick Vitale would turn his attention elsewhere. Maybe share a Coca-Cola with Roy Williams, or attend some backroom dealings with John Calipari, or find something that Bill Self likes to do. (Vitale only seems to follow those 4 schools.) The national coverage is certainly appreciated, but Duke doesn't need the embarrassing hype.

As for Tebow, I guess I support what he represents, and I'm not talking about religion. He's taking the label of "good college player that can't make it at the next level" and shoving it up Mel's Kiper. I would think fellow Duke fans would take some consolation in his efforts to show that pro success is not preordained.

[rthomas]

This may been posted earlier. But it is hilarious.

http://tebowing.com/

[moonpie23]

(emphasis mine).
Is that true though? Or just your interpretation of it? I see where you're coming from, but am not sure it's definitive.

small letters on his shoe? hand written with sharpie on his ankle? inside his hand, back of helmet? sure...


under the eyes on the face? blatant....

maybe a tattoo?

[killerleft]

In a way, Tebowing is comparable to the buffoonish TD celebrations. Which brings me to ...

Boorish Steve Johnson for the Bills draws an excessive celebration penalty, which leads to a Jets TD, and then drops TWO passes that could have redeemed him.

It wasn't Johnson's pantomime of Plaxico shooting himself that drew the excessive celebration penalty, it was Johnson later dropping onto the ground on his back. Apparently, dropping to the ground is an automatic penalty.

How is Tebowing NOT a penalty if he drops to a knee on the ground?

Strange question. Could it be because players have done it for many, many years and no one has ever thunk that the gesture might be a cause for concern? That the gesture suggests a meekness that can't be considered as negativity toward the opponent? Would you approve of flags flying every time a player looks up at the sky and smiles?

Tebowing evidently includes picking the nits where one can find them. OR, did I miss the sarcasm you meant to convey?

[killerleft]

I think that a large part of the Tebow issue comes from people who thought that the Tebow-as-NFL quarterback thing had been settled. Lots of his detractors had already had their fun declaring this bee-in-their-bonnet a joke. Now he's been resurrected (symbolic), is leading his people toward the Promised Land (symbolic), and is seen as the key to Denver's success. This is grating on a lot of people's nerves, especially UFlorida haters.

This all has a Miracle on 34th Street feel to it. I guess the rest of the season will show who's who. Truly, it is impossible for me not to laugh out load whenever Denver pulls out a win nowadays. The Tebow-hating crowd is doing a lot of wailing. They are gnashing their teeth.

[throatybeard]

He makes sure he publicly thanks God at every occasion. He is drawing attention to himself, albeit for the purported reason of drawing attention to his faith, and thus drawing attention to God. He could choose to wait until he gets to the sidelines to "Tebow," or choose NOT to mention God in every interview, or even, GASP, choose NOT to do the optional interviews. I happen to believe in God, but don't appreciate Tebow telling everyone it is his duty to glorify God at every opportunity; like Jehovah's Witnesses, such relentless proselytizing has a negative effect.

Exactly. Not only that, the the Jesus he purports to follow said:


Matthew 6

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Not that he's the only guy who's guilty of antics such as "Tebowing." I must say I'm conflicted about Albert Pujols' constant sky-pointing. But hardly anyone manages to make as much of an ostentatious production of it as Tebow does.

[throatybeard]

Duke wasn't hated in 1992. We were fresh, we were a new story, and we were actually celebrated by everyone outside of the Chapel Hill crowd for winning the right way. We were a good guy story in college hoops, so much that Laettner and company had a Beatles-type aura. They were absolutely celebrities. Then they had the affront to win it again, they beat up a lovable-underdog Kentucky team and Laettner stepped on Aminu, and then, even more annoying, were back in the championship game in 1994. By the time 1995 came along, short-attention-span, easily-jaded America had had enough of Duke and, especially, Vitale et al telling them how great K and Duke were.

I'm not sure that's accurate. Duke wasn't hated in 1986. But tons of sports fans hated Hurley and Laettner, even before Aminu's sternum collided with Christian's foot. A lot of people hated us for upsetting UNLV, because the "doing it the right way" script was already out there. Heck, I was taking merciless crap from my classmates--in rural Georgia--every time I wore a Duke shirt as early as the 1987-88 season. And they were Georgia fans mostly, not Tech fans who might have a more direct reason to hate us. People didn't like Danny Ferry, either. That "soft Duke pro" meme was out there as soon as he decamped for Italy. I think we were halfway over America's sports shark as early as 1988 or 1989. And we were squarely in the crosshairs of over exposure as soon as the "Duke invitational" meme had begun around 1991.

[Matches]

I'm not sure that's accurate. Duke wasn't hated in 1986. But tons of sports fans hated Hurley and Laettner, even before Aminu's sternum collided with Christian's foot. A lot of people hated us for upsetting UNLV, because the "doing it the right way" script was already out there. Heck, I was taking merciless crap from my classmates--in rural Georgia--every time I wore a Duke shirt as early as the 1987-88 season. And they were Georgia fans mostly, not Tech fans who might have a more direct reason to hate us. People didn't like Danny Ferry, either. That "soft Duke pro" meme was out there as soon as he decamped for Italy. I think we were halfway over America's sports shark as early as 1988 or 1989. And we were squarely in the crosshairs of over exposure as soon as the "Duke invitational" meme had begun around 1991.

I don't remember us being all that hated back then. I grew up in NC and was an NC State fan until I went to college. Back then State was relevant, of course, and the State/ UNC rivalry was very heated, and Duke often seemed to be the likable third option. Those days feel quaint now.

I tend to agree that '92 was the tipping point. You're certainly right that a lot of people didn't like Ferry and/or Hurley, but '92 was when it really started to translate into hatred for the entire program. Laettner stepping on Aminu was a big deal.

[killerleft]

I don't remember us being all that hated back then. I grew up in NC and was an NC State fan until I went to college. Back then State was relevant, of course, and the State/ UNC rivalry was very heated, and Duke often seemed to be the likable third option. Those days feel quaint now.

I tend to agree that '92 was the tipping point. You're certainly right that a lot of people didn't like Ferry and/or Hurley, but '92 was when it really started to translate into hatred for the entire program. Laettner stepping on Aminu was a big deal.

Laettner may not have helped, but '91 and '92 were really about Duke just winning and winning and being on TV and everybody telling everybody how good Duke was and how Duke does things the right way, ad nauseum. Everybody likes a winner, but win too much and a lot of people start to have misgivings. Keep winning, and people start celebrating whenever you lose. And so it goes.

[Matches]

Laettner may not have helped, but '91 and '92 were really about Duke just winning and winning and being on TV and everybody telling everybody how good Duke was and how Duke does things the right way, ad nauseum. Everybody likes a winner, but win too much and a lot of people start to have misgivings. Keep winning, and people start celebrating whenever you lose. And so it goes.

I guess - but that never seemed to set in for, say, the Jordan-era Bulls. Or the Montana-era 49ers. Sure there were people out there who hated those teams, but they weren't Duke-hated.

[moonpie23]

look, for all i've said here about tebow, i pull for him.....i LOVE it when he shows them all how wrong they are.... (in my field, it happens all the time as well)


so, just for argument's sake.......suppose, just suppose he continues to win.....

how many games would he have to win before all of his detractors have to have a nice hot cup of shut up?

[Duvall]

look, for all i've said here about tebow, i pull for him.....i LOVE it when he shows them all how wrong they are.... (in my field, it happens all the time as well)


so, just for argument's sake.......suppose, just suppose he continues to win.....

how many games would he have to win before all of his detractors have to have a nice hot cup of shut up?

Football players don't win games, football teams win games.

Tebow can prove that he's an NFL quarterback by playing like a decent NFL quarterback. And rushing the ball 30 times for 70 yards doesn't count.

[moonpie23]

Football players don't win games, football teams win games.

Tebow can prove that he's an NFL quarterback by playing like a decent NFL quarterback. And rushing the ball 30 times for 70 yards doesn't count.

didn't they have another qb before him that was losing? was he an nfl quarterback?

[darthur]

didn't they have another qb before him that was losing? was he an nfl quarterback?

I know very little about football, but I checked out Denver because of this thread.

Under Tebow, they are 5-1 but have scored 20 points in only one game.
Before Tebow, they were 1-4 but scored 20 points in every game but one.

I sampled a couple games and didn't see a big difference in the number of drives. Is this really a case of Tebow playing good offense as opposed to the defense stepping up?

[A-Tex Devil]

I know very little about football, but I checked out Denver because of this thread.

Under Tebow, they are 5-1 but have scored 20 points in only one game.
Before Tebow, they were 1-4 but scored 20 points in every game but one.

I sampled a couple games and didn't see a big difference in the number of drives. Is this really a case of Tebow playing good offense as opposed to the defense stepping up?

No. Not really. You are on the right track. Also, the schedule got easier.

[Stray Gator]

There's no question that Denver's turnaround since Tebow became the starter is attributable largely to improved defense and special teams play. But in fairness, the change in the offensive scheme to rely more heavily on the read-option, and Tebow's ability to execute that scheme without making costly mistakes, deserves some credit. When the offense is able to run the ball and maintain possession, it gradually wears down the opposing defense while allowing Denver's defense an opportunity to recover and come back refreshed for the next series. Moreover, by avoiding turnovers--and in the seven games he's played this year, Tebow has thrown only one INT against 8 TDs in 143 pass attempts--the defense is not put in the position where it has to unexpectedly come back out and defend a short field against an opposing offense that is suddenly pumped with adrenaline and feeling momentum. In some ways, what Fox is running resembles old-time SEC football, in which the winning formula emphasizes ball possession, a smashmouth running game, a stout defense, and special teams to gain and maintain favorable field position. In addition, if the interviews of other Denver players are deemed credible, they are growing more confident in their ability to win at the end of games because they believe that Tebow will make plays to put them in position to win--and that kind of confidence is a valuable (albeit immeasurable) intangible which can give a team the edge in a close match.

That approach obviously, by design, minimizes the need to rely as much on the NFL-style passing game, which everyone recognizes has not been Tebow's forte. But those who watched last Sunday's game against the Chargers saw Tebow throw quite a few NFL-caliber passes--displaying improvement that was acknowledged by several of the commentators. If not for a few drops by the receivers and a no-call on a clear pass interference, his completion percentage of 50% (9-for-18) would have been significantly better. As it is, though, his quarterback rating for the season has improved to 80.5, which puts him 34th in the NFL, ahead of some other QBs that might be regarded as "decent," including Michael Vick, Chad Henne, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, and Josh Freeman. Based solely on the 6 games he's started, Tebow's QB rating would be 84.3, which would rank him 25th in the NFL--not great, but certainly not as bad as some people portray him.

So while I agree that Tebow only deserves limited credit for Denver's 5-1 record since he became the starter, he does deserve some credit.

[Matches]

The Broncos are playing John Fox Ball. Having watched Fox for a decade as the Panthers' coach - this is his style of football. He emphasizes ball control, field position, and defense, and minimizes the impact of the QB. It can be very dull to watch but it's effective when well-executed. Tebow is a good fit for that type of game because he doesn't turn the ball over.

The reason that no one else in the NFL plays John Fox Ball, though, is that it's almost impossible to sustain success using this model. If the O-line slumps or has injuries, they're cooked. If the defense slumps or has injuries, they're cooked. Essentially it's a very useful system with an undertalented team - it will elevate them to mediocrity and keep them competitive in most games. They'll rarely get blown out, and will have a chance to win a lot of games if they make plays in the 4th quarter. Fox managed 7-9 his first season in CAR with Rodney Peete at QB. It is not, however, the style of an elite team - the NFL has evolved into a passing league for a reason.

[Highlander]

The Broncos are playing John Fox Ball. Having watched Fox for a decade as the Panthers' coach - this is his style of football. He emphasizes ball control, field position, and defense, and minimizes the impact of the QB. It can be very dull to watch but it's effective when well-executed. Tebow is a good fit for that type of game because he doesn't turn the ball over.

The reason that no one else in the NFL plays John Fox Ball, though, is that it's almost impossible to sustain success using this model. If the O-line slumps or has injuries, they're cooked. If the defense slumps or has injuries, they're cooked. Essentially it's a very useful system with an undertalented team - it will elevate them to mediocrity and keep them competitive in most games. They'll rarely get blown out, and will have a chance to win a lot of games if they make plays in the 4th quarter. Fox managed 7-9 his first season in CAR with Rodney Peete at QB. It is not, however, the style of an elite team - the NFL has evolved into a passing league for a reason.

So is it fair to say John Fox the Herb Sendek of the NFL? :)

[Wander]

Moreover, by avoiding turnovers--and in the seven games he's played this year, Tebow has thrown only one INT against 8 TDs in 143 pass attempts--the defense is not put in the position where it has to unexpectedly come back out and defend a short field against an opposing offense that is suddenly pumped with adrenaline and feeling momentum.

I think this is key. The ability to not make mistakes is one of the most underrated qualities in every sport. Think Jon Scheyer in 2010.

[cato]

But those who watched last Sunday's game against the Chargers saw Tebow throw quite a few NFL-caliber passes--displaying improvement that was acknowledged by several of the commentators.

True, but he didn't do it against an NFL-caliber passing defense.

[JasonEvans]

On ESPN this morning, they discussed the possibility of Tebow making the Pro Bowl.

...

Pick your jaw up off the floor and listen.

The AFC does not have many good QBs this season. Brady's great, Big Ben is pretty good. Matt Schaub was having a nice season, but he's hurt now. Who else? Flacco? Rivers is leading the world in interceptions. Fitzpatrick started out great but has faded recently. Heck, Andy Daulton is probably a decent pro bowl contender from the AFC. Remember that at least one QB won't be eligible because his team will be in the Super Bowl.

So, is it impossible to imagine Tebow on the Pro Bowl team?

Herm Edwards went a step further and said that if he was the coach of the AFC team, he would pick Tebow with his coach's pick. He said it would be good for the Pro Bowl game, which always struggles for attention, because Tebow brings a ton of fan and media attention. He said the unique skills Tebow brings at the QB position would also be good for a Pro Bowl squad and that the lack of practice the Pro Bowl defenses get would probably make Tebow's attack even more difficult to defend.

Look, I agree with all the folks who say the Denver surge comes from a ton of factors not named Tebow. Personally, I would not want him as my QB if my team had a goal of winning a Super Bowl. But, he really might make the Pro Bowl and I am not so sure he would be totally misplaced if he did.

-Jason "over the long haul, I've seen nothing to show me that Tebow can be more than a barely average QB" Evans

[Indoor66]

-Jason "over the long haul, I've seen nothing to show me that Tebow can be more than a barely average QB" Evans

Maybe nothing other than he wins.

[Matches]

Maybe nothing other than he wins.

This is where the debate gets circular. If winning is the bottom-line indicator of a player's talent, then every Broncos player who is seeing PT right now must be really good, since the team is winning.

[Duvall]

On ESPN this morning, they discussed the possibility of Tebow making the Pro Bowl.

...

Pick your jaw up off the floor and listen.

The AFC does not have many good QBs this season. Brady's great, Big Ben is pretty good. Matt Schaub was having a nice season, but he's hurt now. Who else? Flacco? Rivers is leading the world in interceptions. Fitzpatrick started out great but has faded recently. Heck, Andy Daulton is probably a decent pro bowl contender from the AFC. Remember that at least one QB won't be eligible because his team will be in the Super Bowl.

So, is it impossible to imagine Tebow on the Pro Bowl team?

It really is dire, isn't it? (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=0011&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2011&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go)

Maybe they should just add some NFC quarterbacks to the AFC squad.

[BD80]

On ESPN this morning, they discussed the possibility of Tebow making the Pro Bowl.

...

Pick your jaw up off the floor and listen.

The AFC does not have many good QBs this season. Brady's great, Big Ben is pretty good. Matt Schaub was having a nice season, but he's hurt now. Who else? Flacco? Rivers is leading the world in interceptions. Fitzpatrick started out great but has faded recently. Heck, Andy Daulton is probably a decent pro bowl contender from the AFC. Remember that at least one QB won't be eligible because his team will be in the Super Bowl.

So, is it impossible to imagine Tebow on the Pro Bowl team?

Herm Edwards went a step further and said that if he was the coach of the AFC team, he would pick Tebow with his coach's pick. He said it would be good for the Pro Bowl game, which always struggles for attention, because Tebow brings a ton of fan and media attention. He said the unique skills Tebow brings at the QB position would also be good for a Pro Bowl squad and that the lack of practice the Pro Bowl defenses get would probably make Tebow's attack even more difficult to defend.

Look, I agree with all the folks who say the Denver surge comes from a ton of factors not named Tebow. Personally, I would not want him as my QB if my team had a goal of winning a Super Bowl. But, he really might make the Pro Bowl and I am not so sure he would be totally misplaced if he did.

-Jason "over the long haul, I've seen nothing to show me that Tebow can be more than a barely average QB" Evans


Now this pushes me toward the Tebow haters. There is absolutely no reason for Tebow in the Pro Bowl as a QB. Put him in as a running back if you want, his numbers would be more persuasive. Brady and Big Ben are the clear choices, and lets hope Ben will be in the Super Bowl, opening up a QB spot. Peyton Manning would typically have this spot. Matt Ryan and Andy Dalton would be next in line in my mind. I'll bet even Carson Palmer will deserve the spot before Tebow.

I enjoy the Tebow conundrum, I root for the Broncos because of the situation, but am not a fan of "Tebowing."

[JasonEvans]

Now this pushes me toward the Tebow haters. There is absolutely no reason for Tebow in the Pro Bowl as a QB. Put him in as a running back if you want, his numbers would be more persuasive. Brady and Big Ben are the clear choices, and lets hope Ben will be in the Super Bowl, opening up a QB spot. Peyton Manning would typically have this spot. Matt Ryan and Andy Dalton would be next in line in my mind. I'll bet even Carson Palmer will deserve the spot before Tebow.

I enjoy the Tebow conundrum, I root for the Broncos because of the situation, but am not a fan of "Tebowing."

Matt Ryan is not eligible for the AFC Pro Bowl team as he plays for an NFC team.


Maybe they should just add some NFC quarterbacks to the AFC squad.

Duvall is kidding, but in all seriousness, Matt Ryan is a perfect example of the QB imbalance. A very solid case could be made that Matty-Ice would be the 2nd best QB in the AFC right now. Ryan started out the season poorly, but is basically neck-and-neck with Big Ben right now. It is not unreasonable to look at how the past several games have gone for Ryan and project that he will have had a better season than Ben when all is said and done.

But, in the NFC, Ryan is clearly behind Rogers, Brees, Romo, and probably Eli Manning too... at least this season. Cam Newton's running ability has to give him a boost and his passing stats aren't that bad. He has been hurt a lot but we all know what a force Michael Vick can be. Stafford has had a pretty good season too (26 TDs, 4th most in football).

The way I see it, 4 of the top 5 QBs in the NFL are in the NFC and probably about 7 or 8 of the top 10 are NFC guys.

-Jason "it seems that defenses rule in the AFC (except for the Pats) while offenses carry the day in the NFC (except for the 49ers and maybe Bears)" Evans

[Stray Gator]

Now this pushes me toward the Tebow haters. ...

Are you really letting your sentiments about Tebow be influenced by something these ESPN commentators obviously threw out for effect, and almost certainly as a form of mockery? Isn't this akin to college basketball fans who say they are influenced to dislike Duke because they get tired of hearing Duke being touted by Dick Vitale and other mediots...except that Vitale is being serious in his praise, while the ESPN commentators suggesting that Tebow be considered for the Pro Bowl are obviously just trying to exploit and escalate the whole Tebow controversy? I would hope that Duke fans, perhaps more than any other group, would recognize that players should not be judged, one way or another, based on the "storylines" that sportswriters and commentators develop for the primary purpose of attracting attention from readers or viewers.

[BD80]

... Matt Ryan is a perfect example of the QB imbalance. A very solid case could be made that Matty-Ice would be the 2nd best QB in the AFC right now. Ryan started out the season poorly, but is basically neck-and-neck with Big Ben right now. It is not unreasonable to look at how the past several games have gone for Ryan and project that he will have had a better season than Ben when all is said and done.

But, in the NFC, Ryan is clearly behind Rogers, Brees, Romo, and probably Eli Manning too... at least this season. Cam Newton's running ability has to give him a boost and his passing stats aren't that bad. He has been hurt a lot but we all know what a force Michael Vick can be. Stafford has had a pretty good season too (26 TDs, 4th most in football).

The way I see it, 4 of the top 5 QBs in the NFL are in the NFC and probably about 7 or 8 of the top 10 are NFC guys.

-Jason "it seems that defenses rule in the AFC (except for the Pats) while offenses carry the day in the NFC (except for the 49ers and maybe Bears)" Evans

Romo? Seriously?

Romo is not a top ten QB.

Brees, Rodgers, Brady and P Manning are the top level.

Big Ben is a half step back.

Eli Manning and Flacco another step back. Rivers had been here.

Then Ryan, Shaub, Vick and maybe Stafford and Bradford. Rivers must at least be here. This the level where the NFC is deep, young potential pro-bowlers.

Then comes Romo, Sanchez, Palmer, Cutler, Orton, Dalton, Newton, Fitzpatrick, Freeman, etc. Romo isn't even in the top half of this group.

Gabbart and Ponder are just below and will move up. Alex Smith.

A bunch of journeymen QBs like Hasselbeck and Kitna. Matt Moore, Colt McCoy.

Tebow.

Tavaris Jackson, Brady Quinn.

[rasputin]

Romo? Seriously?

Romo is not a top ten QB.

Brees, Rodgers, Brady and P Manning are the top level.

Big Ben is a half step back.

Eli Manning and Flacco another step back. Rivers had been here.

Then Ryan, Shaub, Vick and maybe Stafford and Bradford. Rivers must at least be here. This the level where the NFC is deep, young potential pro-bowlers.

Then comes Romo, Sanchez, Palmer, Cutler, Orton, Dalton, Newton, Fitzpatrick, Freeman, etc. Romo isn't even in the top half of this group.

Gabbart and Ponder are just below and will move up. Alex Smith.

A bunch of journeymen QBs like Hasselbeck and Kitna. Matt Moore, Colt McCoy.

Tebow.

Tavaris Jackson, Brady Quinn.

Where's Sam the Ram?

He's having a poor season, but he certainly is a young potential pro-bowler.

[Duvall]

Romo? Seriously?

Romo is not a top ten QB.

Brees, Rodgers, Brady and P Manning are the top level.

Big Ben is a half step back.

Eli Manning and Flacco another step back. Rivers had been here.

Then Ryan, Shaub, Vick and maybe Stafford and Bradford. Rivers must at least be here. This the level where the NFC is deep, young potential pro-bowlers.

Then comes Romo, Sanchez, Palmer, Cutler, Orton, Dalton, Newton, Fitzpatrick, Freeman, etc. Romo isn't even in the top half of this group.

Pretty sure Jason is talking about 2011 only. No way can you put Romo behind some of these guys based on this season. I mean, Rivers? Flacco? Sanchez?

[Stray Gator]

Current NFL Ratings [NOTE: 5 of the top 6 are not quarterbacks]:

Passing

Rk Player Team Rating

1 Shane Lechler OAK 135.4
2 Aaron Rodgers GB 127.7
3 Ray Rice BAL RB 118.8
3 Sidney Rice SEA 118.8
3 Em. Sanders PIT 118.8
3 Daniel Sepulveda PIT 118.8
7 Colin Kaepernick SF 115.3
8 Matt Leinart HOU 110.1
9 Tom Brady NE QB 105.1
10 Chase Daniel NO 104.2
11 Jake Locker TEN 103.7
12 Drew Brees NO 103.6
13 Shaun Hill DET 103.5
14 Tony Romo DAL 97.5
15 Matt Schaub HOU 96.8
16 Br. Gradkowski CIN 96.5
17 Eli Manning NYG 95.6
18 B. Roethlisberger PIT 92.2
19 Alex Smith SF 91.2
20 Matt Stafford DET 90.7
21 Matt Ryan ATL 89.3
22 Matt Moore MIA 87.8
23 Jay Cutler CHI 85.7
24 Ryan Fitzpatrick BUF 85.5
25 Jason Campbell OAK 84.2
26 Matt Hasselbeck TEN 83.1
27 Donovan McNabb MIN 82.9
28 Jon Kitna DAL 82.1
29 Andy Dalton CIN 81.8
29 Dan Orlovsky IND 81.8
31 Cam Newton CAR 81.1
32 Mark Sanchez NYJ 80.9
33 Philip Rivers SD 80.8
34 Tim Tebow DEN 80.5
35 Michael Vick PHI 79.8
36 Chad Henne MIA 79.0
37 Joe Flacco BAL 78.9
38 Colt McCoy CLE 78.1
39 Kevin Kolb ARI 77.8
39 Carson Palmer OAK 77.8
41 Matt Cassel KC 76.6
42 Josh Freeman TB 74.6
43 Rex Grossman WAS 73.6
44 Tarvaris Jackson SEA 72.8
45 Christian Ponder MIN 72.6
46 Sam Bradford STL 72.3
47 John Beck WAS 72.1
48 Matt Flynn GB 70.1
49 Vince Young PHI 69.6
50 A.J. Feeley STL 68.3

[throatybeard]

I don't remember us being all that hated back then. I grew up in NC and was an NC State fan until I went to college. Back then State was relevant, of course, and the State/ UNC rivalry was very heated, and Duke often seemed to be the likable third option. Those days feel quaint now.

I do remember a bumper sticker in Chapel Hill, circa...I want to say Mack Brown's first couple years in football, 1988, 1989. "Duke is puke, Wake is fake, but the team I hate is NC State." There was another one with red text on a Carolina blue field that said "It's always too late for State."

State has beaten UNC five straight years in football and UNC is still giving them that "you're not our rival" business Duke fans like to give Maryland. State really needs to get their act together in basketball, I guess.


Current NFL Ratings [NOTE: 5 of the top 6 are not quarterbacks]:

Passing

Rk Player Team Rating

1 Shane Lechler OAK 135.4

Lechler is such a stone cold badass, he can pass with his FOOT.

[phaedrus]

Current NFL Ratings [NOTE: 5 of the top 6 are not quarterbacks]:

Passing

Rk Player Team Rating
2 Aaron Rodgers GB 127.7


I mean, Good God.

[JasonEvans]

Pretty sure Jason is talking about 2011 only. No way can you put Romo behind some of these guys based on this season. I mean, Rivers? Flacco? Sanchez?

Exactly-- I was talking Pro Bowl selections.

Also, while I am no Romo fan, I think it is pretty hard to make an argument he is barely in the top half of all the QBs in football. He is having a heck of a season this year and has not exactly been a total loser in the past.

-Jason "Romo makes the Pro Bowl this year, I think that is a fairly safe bet" Evans

[killerleft]

"Ancient Mayan tablet does not say the world will end in 2012; properly decoded, it cryptically states "In the One Mile High City, the 15 Man will lead his fellow horsemen to victory in a Bowl That Is Super". Whatever that means (guardian.co.uk)"

http://www.fark.com/

LOL.

[sporthenry]

But those who watched last Sunday's game against the Chargers saw Tebow throw quite a few NFL-caliber passes--displaying improvement that was acknowledged by several of the commentators.

So while I agree that Tebow only deserves limited credit for Denver's 5-1 record since he became the starter, he does deserve some credit.

He does deserve some credit, probably mostly attributed to what he brings to the locker room but the success is not sustainable. What happens when they start losing those games where he completes 2 passes? Then players lose faith in him and they are right back where they started.

The problem is as you mentioned he completed quite a few NFL caliber passes but guess what, he is in the NFL so we shouldn't throw a parade for completing a few NFL caliber passes. Do we get excited when Brady or Rodgers completes an NFL pass? And people will say he is young and has time to learn but most young QB's who are successful consistently show an ability to make those passes so I don't think you learn to make NFL passes you just learn where to throw it, the ability is just inherent and Tebow doesn't consistently have it with his curve balls.

I judge players by their ability to bring a championship to a city and Tebow does not have any of that as a starting QB. Yes, he can steal a few games in the regular season versus inferior competition and maybe even get into the playoffs but does anyone think he can lead that 4th quarter drive against the Steelers/Ravens or go score for score with Brady? So I have to agree with Elway that you have to be looking towards the future.

[sporthenry]

Romo? Seriously?

Romo is not a top ten QB.

Brees, Rodgers, Brady and P Manning are the top level.

Big Ben is a half step back.

Eli Manning and Flacco another step back. Rivers had been here.

Then Ryan, Shaub, Vick and maybe Stafford and Bradford. Rivers must at least be here. This the level where the NFC is deep, young potential pro-bowlers.

Then comes Romo, Sanchez, Palmer, Cutler, Orton, Dalton, Newton, Fitzpatrick, Freeman, etc. Romo isn't even in the top half of this group.


This is just ridiculous. There is no way you can put Rivers ahead of Romo with such certainty. Rivers has been a colossal disappointment this year while Romo has his team in position to succeed. Both have shown an ability to choke but Rivers is playing terribly. Romo is 4th on ESPN's passer rating, Rivers is 20th. Romo is 4th in completion % and has less INTs than Brees or Brady.

And Flacco has never had better numbers than Romo is any one season and again Romo is blowing him out of the water 64.5 to 56% completion% 21 to 13 TDs, 7.96 avg to 6.66 and not even including Flacco's 8 fumbles to Romo's 3.

Additionally, there is no way you can put Bradford ahead of Romo or many others at this point or else you'd have to put Dalton in your top 10. Your list is very convoluted with some guys on potential and others on results.

I would reduce the amount of levels and put Rivers, Romo, Cutler, Schaub, Ryan,and Flacco all in the same division because they are all system QBs who can get hot but struggle when they see adversity. And I'm not even a Romo fan but give the guy his due at least in the regular season.

[A-Tex Devil]

This is just ridiculous. There is no way you can put Rivers ahead of Romo with such certainty. Rivers has been a colossal disappointment this year while Romo has his team in position to succeed. Both have shown an ability to choke but Rivers is playing terribly. Romo is 4th on ESPN's passer rating, Rivers is 20th. Romo is 4th in completion % and has less INTs than Brees or Brady.

Additionally, there is no way you can put Bradford ahead of Romo or many others at this point or else you'd have to put Dalton in your top 10. Your list is very convoluted with some guys on potential and others on results.

I would reduce the amount of levels and put Rivers, Romo, Cutler, Schaub, Ryan,and Flacco all in the same division because they are all system QBs who can get hot but struggle when they see adversity.

Rivers has been so bad this year that if I were the Nevada Gaming Commission, I would investigate him for point shaving.

[cato]

Rivers has been so bad this year that if I were the Nevada Gaming Commission, I would investigate him for point shaving.

Indeed. I have never seen a player reverse direction like Rivers has this year. Previously, he had improved every year, and seemed to be in the same position as Rogers, poised to enter the conversation as top QB. It is astounding the different directions they have gone in.

[Highlander]

Indeed. I have never seen a player reverse direction like Rivers has this year. Previously, he had improved every year, and seemed to be in the same position as Rogers, poised to enter the conversation as top QB. It is astounding the different directions they have gone in.

See Delhomme, Jake (comparisons to Rogers notwithstanding).

[Matches]

It would not surprise me to learn that Rivers has been playing with an unreported injury. The dropoff is pretty astounding.

Romo OTOH has had an excellent season. We'll see if he can keep it going in the playoffs.

[Duvall]

This should be fun (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/02/the-thom-brennamantim-tebow-reunion/).

[throatybeard]

Indeed. I have never seen a player reverse direction like Rivers has this year. Previously, he had improved every year, and seemed to be in the same position as Rogers, poised to enter the conversation as top QB. It is astounding the different directions they have gone in.

You could always get a team of lawyers from San Diego to fire him.

[cato]

You could always get a team of lawyers from San Diego to fire him.

What a strange response.

[throatybeard]

What a strange response.

I have a hunch that you understand it perfectly.

[moonpie23]

IMHO

rivers is a hot head who will never win anything.....talented? yes, however, his temper and impatience will keep him and his team from ever going to, much less winning the SB...


no rings for rivers.......ever...

[throatybeard]

FWIW, I just waivered Vick in favor of Tebow. That's in a league in which I start Cam Newton. So it's really as a back-up. We'll see what happens with the matchups. I didn't pay close enough attention.

Just before the deadline, I also traded Eli Manning (also a backup) to a team starting Rivers. Ai yai yai.

[Duvall]

Based on this Minnesota-Denver game, I have concluded that an important part of leadership is getting to throw the ball to Percy Harvin.

[Acymetric]

Based on this Minnesota-Denver game, I have concluded that an important part of leadership is getting to throw the ball to Percy Harvin.

I've always thought not throwing the ball to Percy Harvin was the main thing holding me back in most areas of life.

[hurleyfor3]

It's been fun watching the Broncos and all, but as soon as they face a real team in the playoffs (NE/Balt/Pit) they're done.

[moonpie23]

It's been fun watching the Broncos and all, but as soon as they face a real team in the playoffs (NE/Balt/Pit) they're done.

as soon as duke faces a REAL team (baylor, WVA) they're done...

[hurleyfor3]

as soon as duke faces a REAL team (baylor, WVA) they're done...

Those were good teams, and we were favored against WVU anyway. The Broncos have been pulling these games out against average to bad teams.

[moonpie23]

true....i just can't help it......the more people say the broncos CAN'T do it, and then they continue to do it, i love it...

i love an under dog...

[killerleft]

It's been fun watching the Broncos and all, but as soon as they face a real team in the playoffs (NE/Balt/Pit) they're done.

Yeah, well, you're describing all the teams but the Super Bowl winner, more or less.:)

[Matches]

Props where they are deserved - Tebow played a solid, maybe better than solid, game against the Vikings. The D gave up 32 points this week so the win can't be attributed solely to good defense. Obviously the Broncos are still covering Tebow's throwing deficiencies by not having him throw very often, but he's doing what he's being asked to do, and doing it pretty well. And when he was asked to throw, he did so pretty well and very efficiently.

He also did a wonderful job of inspiring the D to make that late interception AND inspiring the FG kicker to knock down two big ones.

[Stray Gator]

Current passing ratings for NFL QBs after Sunday's games:

1 Aaron Rodgers GB 125.3
2 Matt Leinart HOU 110.1
3 Tom Brady NE 105.9
4 Drew Brees NO 105.5
5 Chase Daniel NO 104.2
6 Jake Locker TEN 103.7
6 Dan Orlovsky IND 103.7
8 Shaun Hill DET 103.5
9 Tony Romo DAL 97.3
10 Matt Schaub HOU 96.8
11 Eli Manning NYG 96.0
12 Alex Smith SF 94.9
13 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 93.6
14 Matthew Stafford DET 91.3
15 Tim Tebow DEN 87.9
16 Matt Moore MIA 87.6
17 Ryan Fitzpatrick BUF 85.8
18 Jay Cutler CHI 85.7
19 Matt Ryan ATL 85.2
20 Jason Campbell OAK 84.2
21 Seneca Wallace CLE 83.3
22 Matt Hasselbeck TEN 82.9
22 Donovan McNabb MIN 82.9
24 Cam Newton CAR 82.4
25 Jon Kitna DAL 82.1
26 Andy Dalton CIN 81.6
27 Colin Kaepernick SF 81.2
28 Mark Sanchez NYJ 81.1
29 Kevin Kolb ARI 81.0
30 Philip Rivers SD 80.8
31 Michael Vick PHI 79.8
32 Chad Henne MIA 79.0
32 T.J. Yates HOU 79.0
34 Joe Flacco BAL 78.3
35 Carson Palmer OAK 77.5
36 Colt McCoy CLE 76.9
37 Matt Cassel KC 76.6
37 Christian Ponder MIN 76.6
39 Tarvaris Jackson SEA 76.1
40 Josh Freeman TB 74.6
41 Josh Johnson TB 73.5
42 Sam Bradford STL 72.3
43 John Beck WAS 72.1
44 Matt Flynn GB 70.1

Some will say that Tebow's improved rating should be attributed to the fact that Denver has played a weak schedule since he became the starter; others will say that his mechanics and mental ability to play the position at the NFL level are getting better. I think it's probably some of both, along with growing confidence in and familiarity with his receivers and other teammates that comes from the experience of playing every snap, week after week.

I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit that, to those of us who have been cheering for Tim all along, it's gratifying to see him enjoy some success (for whatever reasons) and earn some credit (however begrudging) from at least a few of his critics and doubters. I don't think any of Tim's longtime fans would tout him as being a great prototypical NFL quarterback, or even expect him to develop into that role. But it certainly is a lot of fun to watch him use the skills he has to help his team find ways to win at the end of games. In fact, if he was a great passer who was leading Denver to comfortable wins in the conventional way, it wouldn't be nearly as exciting. The fact that the Broncos have needed to rally in the fourth quarter to overcome their offensive deficiencies--mostly due to Tebow's own shortcomings as an NFL QB--has given us these storybook finishes week after week. And whether you like Tebow or not, whether you cheer for Denver or not, they're delivering the kind of exhilarating, suspenseful, edge-of-your-seat, end-of-game adrenaline rush that makes sports so special.

[killerleft]

Props where they are deserved - Tebow played a solid, maybe better than solid, game against the Vikings. The D gave up 32 points this week so the win can't be attributed solely to good defense. Obviously the Broncos are still covering Tebow's throwing deficiencies by not having him throw very often, but he's doing what he's being asked to do, and doing it pretty well. And when he was asked to throw, he did so pretty well and very efficiently.

He also did a wonderful job of inspiring the D to make that late interception AND inspiring the FG kicker to knock down two big ones.

That's just Tebow being Tebow.

[tommy]

Props where they are deserved - Tebow played a solid, maybe better than solid, game against the Vikings. The D gave up 32 points this week so the win can't be attributed solely to good defense. Obviously the Broncos are still covering Tebow's throwing deficiencies by not having him throw very often, but he's doing what he's being asked to do, and doing it pretty well. And when he was asked to throw, he did so pretty well and very efficiently.

He also did a wonderful job of inspiring the D to make that late interception AND inspiring the FG kicker to knock down two big ones.

But don't forget, neither the interception nor the FG's would have happened had Tebow not believed so strongly they were going to happen.

[throatybeard]

But don't forget, neither the interception nor the FG's would have happened had Tebow not believed so strongly they were going to happen.

It's really good thing Jesus is a Broncos fan.

[BD80]

Current passing ratings for NFL QBs after Sunday's games:

1 Aaron Rodgers GB 125.3
2 Matt Leinart HOU 110.1
3 Tom Brady NE 105.9
4 Drew Brees NO 105.5 ...

Since when does the QB rating include hang time?

[Newton_14]

Sure. See my post above, in part.

I can give you a laundry list of teams and players who are successful but who are not "hated" - of course there are always individuals who hate on any particular team/ player but, for example, "Aaron Rodgers Hate" isn't a national phenomenon. I'm sure someone somewhere hates the guy but it's not a "thing" like Tebow Hate is.

So why Tebow? Is it because he's religious? Again, there are dozens if not hundreds of NFL and other players who wear their faith on their sleeves, but no one blinks.

I agree with Stray's post above that Tebow, when interviewed, invariably deflects praise away from himself and toward his teammates. His fans, though, are another story - they do everything short of deifying the guy. The media is complicit - when the Broncos win the narrative is "Tebow, Broncos Win." Even if Tebow played poorly, he "found a way to win" or "inspired his teammates to play well." And when his team wins, inevitably it's trumpeted as being the result of Tebow's hard work. The implication is that other players don't work as hard as Tebow does, and that's at best unknowable, and at worst demonstrably false.

If the guy makes a play to win a game or leads an important drive, by all means give him props. He's done it a few times, and he actually played quite well yesterday. Too often, though, the narrative is "Tebow won because he's such a good person" - and that's insulting to all the *other* good people in the NFL.

But see, here is the deal in my view. Folks are hating on him when you said yourself its the media and his fans that you have the issue with. Shouldn't folks be hating on the media and his fans?

As much as we as fans endure the rampant Duke hate, when the Duke kids on the team nor the coaching staff in anyway deserve that hate, it is disappointing to read this thread and see all the hate directed at Tebow. It seems too that each win on Sunday only serves to fuel the fire in the hate towards him. The experts said he would be a flop and never make it as a QB, and currently he is proving them wrong. Good for him. I find it refreshing when an athlete overcomes the odds. It's fun to watch. "Experts" also said that JJ would never make it in the NBA. They were wrong. I see the Tebow's and JJ's as success stories, not reason to hate and pile on.

Will the success at QB continue? Who knows. Personally I feel the safe route would be to switch over to Tight End where he could possibly be All-Pro, but hey, the guy wants to be a QB so Denver has chosen to give him a shot. I wish him well.

I fully understand how people can be annoyed at how the media has hyped Tebow, but that is the media world we live in. I just wish folks would direct the disdain for that at the media and not Tebow.

It's kind of like the Tiger hate before he fell from grace. I would hear it from golf buddies every week.. "Man, Tiger was 13 shots out of the lead Sunday on the back nine, yet they kept showing him! And he made a birdie to cut it to 12 down, and the announcer yelled here he comes, the leaders should beware. Meanwhile they missed showing the 3rd place guy make a birdie! Dang I hate Woods!" It's not like Tiger demanded that they show every shot he made. The media did that yet the hate was directed at Tiger. It just never made any sense to me.

[Verga3]

But don't forget, neither the interception nor the FG's would have happened had Tebow not believed so strongly they were going to happen.

"Amen"...no sorry, meant to say "Hell Yes!" Good one, tommy.

[feldspar]

I fully understand how people can be annoyed at how the media has hyped Tebow, but that is the media world we live in. I just wish folks would direct the disdain for that at the media and not Tebow.

It's kind of like the Tiger hate before he fell from grace. I would hear it from golf buddies every week.. "Man, Tiger was 13 shots out of the lead Sunday on the back nine, yet they kept showing him! And he made a birdie to cut it to 12 down, and the announcer yelled here he comes, the leaders should beware. Meanwhile they missed showing the 3rd place guy make a birdie! Dang I hate Woods!" It's not like Tiger demanded that they show every shot he made. The media did that yet the hate was directed at Tiger. It just never made any sense to me.


Oh, man I couldn't agree with this more. People hate Tiger because they hate the media coverage of Tiger. But it's not cool or fun to hate on ESPN or CBS or NBC, so you direct your ire at the person, not the media. It's rather immature, if you ask me. As if Tiger Woods single handedly changed golf for the worse. As if he really holds that much power. Gimme a break.

As for Tebow, I'm rooting for him big time. Ever since the pre-season when every single analyst said he was a piece of trash that didn't belong on an NFL field, I've been rooting for him. The hypocrisy of the media knows no bounds.

[BD80]

Oh, man I couldn't agree with this more. People hate Tiger because they hate the media coverage of Tiger. But it's not cool or fun to hate on ESPN or CBS or NBC, so you direct your ire at the person, not the media. It's rather immature, if you ask me. As if Tiger Woods single handedly changed golf for the worse. As if he really holds that much power. Gimme a break.

As for Tebow, I'm rooting for him big time. Ever since the pre-season when every single analyst said he was a piece of trash that didn't belong on an NFL field, I've been rooting for him. The hypocrisy of the media knows no bounds.

Neither Tiger nor Tebow avoid the spotlight; rather they relish it, prancing about to attract MORE attention. How many other golfers go through such histrionics? I dislike Tiger, but I DO hate the media for the fawning.

Tebow isn't as bad, and does deflect plaudits to his teammates (although it is so rote it does seem disingenuous to me). I actually like Tebow, but don't think he is a pro quarterback. A team can do well with a wildcat QB, particularly one that runs so well, for a while, but teams will adjust and the QB will break. Running backs have an average useful NFL life of about 2 seasons. The fawning over Tebow is irritating, even in the Broncos "bad" defensive game, they forced 3 turnovers - including a pick 6 and the INT that gave the Broncos the winning fg, and twice held the Vikes to fgs on drives that started deep in Broncos territory. The Broncos gained a net 186 yds passing and a net 150 yds rushing. Tebow is a part of a team that has made an impressive turn-around, but he is not the cause nor even the chief factor.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Bill O's people called a Denver sports radio guy and offered to pay him to be on the show and take the position that Tebow's religion is a problem in the locker room. They already had someone who would take the other side.

Guy they called refused, said he was in the locker room 4 or 5 days a week and Tebow was not a problem at all.

Guy then reported the whole story on his radio show.

Evidently Bill O found someone else to take side.

This was reported to me from someone who heard it on the radio.

SoCal

[Verga3]

Tebow drives Broncos to score late in the 4th quarter v. Chicago. No timeouts left with 2+ minutes remaining. Guess they recovered the onside kick. CBS just showed Denver tie it up with a 59 yard field goal. In OT now. Whatever happens next...Unbelievable.

[Verga3]

51 yard field goal in OT. Wow!

[snowdenscold]

Whatever happens next...Unbelievable.

Like Chicago fumbling on a rush that gets them well into field goal range (possibly could have broken free for the straight out TD and win). Broncos recover and Tebow leads them back to the 35 or so where they kick another field goal (had a 59-yarder to tie) to win in OT.

[Blue in the Face]

Tebow drives Broncos to score late in the 4th quarter v. Chicago. No timeouts left with 2+ minutes remaining. Guess they recovered the onside kick. CBS just showed Denver tie it up with a 59 yard field goal. In OT now. Whatever happens next...Unbelievable.
This game really captured both sides of the Tebow coin. (I guess it's actually 3 sides, including their D coming up big for them).

[throatybeard]

So are we gonna have a thread on Matt Prater too? That was absolutely Janikowskian.

[Bluedog]

No timeouts left with 2+ minutes remaining. Guess they recovered the onside kick.

Nope. Bears just were stupid and ran the ball out of bounds.

[Verga3]

Nope. Bears just were stupid and ran the ball out of bounds.

Thanks. Couldn't get the game here. Denver DIDN'T onside kick so late with no timeouts? Interesting. Worked out for them. A "Fox is a genius" moment...or divine intervention (to aggravate some of our friends)?

[Verga3]

So are we gonna have a thread on Matt Prater too? That was absolutely Janikowskian.

Amazing. Matt surely deserves a thread after that. What pressure, what execution. Just amazing!

[Stray Gator]

Yet another storybook finish, thanks mainly to another fantastic late-game-and-overtime field goal kicking performance by Prater. I believe this was the fourth time since Tebow became the regular QB that Denver was down by more than 8 points with under 3 minutes to go today, and came back to win. Tebow was 3-16 at one point--though there were at least 4 or 5 drops of what should have been easy receptions--and then he hit something like 13 of the next 15 passes. To the Bronco players, I don't think it matters who gets the credit. They've got to be having a lot of fun doing this week after week. And for the fans, who could ask for more excitement?

[throatybeard]

Thanks. Couldn't get the game here. Denver DIDN'T onside kick so late with no timeouts? Interesting. Worked out for them. A "Fox is a genius" moment...or divine intervention (to aggravate some of our friends)?

No, they did, and the onsides kick was just about the most perfect I've even seen, ballooning up in the air and coming down well past the ten yards in an area populated by Broncos. The hands team didn't come up with it, it squirted into an area with one Bear, and he covered it.

[Verga3]

No, they did, and the onsides kick was just about the most perfect I've even seen, ballooning up in the air and coming down well past the ten yards in an area populated by Broncos. The hands team didn't come up with it, it squirted into an area with one Bear, and he covered it.

I should have guessed that. Thanks for painting the picture for me. Wish we could have found the FOX feed here in NC. Got an Infomercial instead.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Denver was obviously lucky to win.

The running back should have fallen down and ran out the clock. Or not fumbled.

But Tebow has ability to take advantage of the breaks.

This is fun to watch.

SoCal

[BD80]

The media is driving me crazy - calling it "Tebow Mania." Tebow does nothing for 55 minutes, the kicker hits from 59 frickin yards to tie and from 51 to win, and the Broncos defense gets the ball from the bears when they are in fg range to win in OT. "Tebow wins again!"

[throatybeard]

The media is driving me crazy - calling it "Tebow Mania." Tebow does nothing for 55 minutes, the kicker hits from 59 frickin yards to tie and from 51 to win, and the Broncos defense gets the ball from the bears when they are in fg range to win in OT. "Tebow wins again!"

Tebow's general lack of culpability in what the media is doing aside, I think this goes a long way towards explaining the backlash, or, at least, the lack of utility to a comparison with Redick or anyone else at Duke.

Football is [even] more of a team sport than basketball. Eleven guys have to do their job instead of five. Sometimes, a basketball team can succeed on offense with just two guys doing their job. I don't remember many "Redick wins again" or "Redick mania" headlines in 2003-2006, but even if there were, sometimes it was true. Dude put everybody on his back. At the end, he was creating more too.

If anybody on the Broncos is in a position to get a headline, "X wins," tonight it's the place kicker, insofar as the outcome depends. Even then, you need a clean snap, a clean hold, and at least an acceptable performance from the line. It's still a team effort. But the kicker's right leg is a disproportionate percentage of the outcome. Nonetheless, I haven't recently seen any "Janikowski wins" or "Gould wins" headlines even when such might more reasonably seem to be the case than "Tebow wins."

To some degree, it's not Tebow's fault that the media, realizing a commercial opportunity to get hits on the web and sell paper, frames him like this. But given what the scriptures say about not making a show out of praying (which I quoted up-thread), Tebow is, to some degree, complicit in this branding of him as the bestest Christianest athlete in America. And that is what makes a halfway decent NFL QB on a .500ish team the headliner. If some other QB--who hadn't made an ostentatious display out of being Christian--won a few games in a row, it wouldn't be as big a story. Romo has really excelled his [somewhat unfair] reputation as an underachiever this year, in an avalanche of rib injuries. I haven't seen a single headline that says "Romo wins." Maurice Jones-Drew went nuts today. Four TDs. Notify me if there's an "MJD wins" headline anywhere.

I apologize that this post comes so close to PPB content. But the political climate surrounding Christianity in this nation really is integral to understanding what's going on with Tim Tebow, a great college FB player but a middling NFL one.

[feldspar]

this branding of him as the bestest Christianest athlete in America. And that is what makes a halfway decent NFL QB on a .500ish team the headliner. If some other QB--who hadn't made an ostentatious display out of being Christian--won a few games in a row, it wouldn't be as big a story.

Well I couldn't disagree with this more.

Strip away Tebow's Christianity and he'd still be racking up the headlines. I mean, it's an interesting story, whether you like him or not. A kid who won the Heisman but was never considered the prototypical college quarterback and who is widely criticized for his decision making and throwing motion gets caught up in a quarterback controversy at the start of the season, where even his own teammates are behind the scenes threatening near revolt if he's named the starting QB. Analysts say it will be a joke if he ever starts an NFL game. Pundits make fun of how purely awful he is and how he was drafted so high. This same QB is then inserted into the starting lineup after his predecessor fails miserably and is later cut by the team. This same quarterback then goes on to win 6 out of 7 games, most of them not only in exciting comebacks, but in an unusual fashion.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that he kneels down and points to the sky. That's a nice little side piece, but strip that away and you still have an interesting, unusual and newsworthy story.

[Duke4Ever32]

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that he kneels down and points to the sky. That's a nice little side piece, but strip that away and you still have an interesting, unusual and newsworthy story.

Totally agree with this. The idea that the Tebow story this year wouldn't even be covered, or would be covered with must less zeal, if Tebow didn't kneel down and point to the sky on occasion is just laughable. Sure, he's only won 4 games when being down by 8 points or more with less than three minutes to play, but it's the kneeling down that's driving the coverage somehow!!

[killerleft]

The religion aspect is important in that Tebow IS very public with his Christianity, and the Broncos are winning in ways that have the "miracle" aura about them. The more they win, the more some people will be bothered by Tebowing and Winning. Some people are happy that Tebowing produces wins. Some (like me) are just fascinated with the whole thing, and every win the Bucking Tebows garner gives me a good feeling inside, mainly because of the crap that Tebow takes from his detractors. He may be tall and healthy, but the David and Goliath story is not that far off the mark. Very few people would have bet that Denver's record could possibly be as good as it has been during the Reign of Tebow. That the defense and field goal specialist have done the largest part of the work doesn't harsh my buzz at all. Tim Tebow is a great leader. What did we expect?

disclaimer:;):o:D

[A-Tex Devil]

Well I couldn't disagree with this more.

Strip away Tebow's Christianity and he'd still be racking up the headlines. I mean, it's an interesting story, whether you like him or not. A kid who won the Heisman but was never considered the prototypical college quarterback and who is widely criticized for his decision making and throwing motion gets caught up in a quarterback controversy at the start of the season, where even his own teammates are behind the scenes threatening near revolt if he's named the starting QB. Analysts say it will be a joke if he ever starts an NFL game. Pundits make fun of how purely awful he is and how he was drafted so high. This same QB is then inserted into the starting lineup after his predecessor fails miserably and is later cut by the team. This same quarterback then goes on to win 6 out of 7 games, most of them not only in exciting comebacks, but in an unusual fashion.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that he kneels down and points to the sky. That's a nice little side piece, but strip that away and you still have an interesting, unusual and newsworthy story.

Strip away the Tebow hype, draft position, etc. etc. and you have VY at the end of his rookie year getting 6 straight wins and almost leading the Titans to the playoffs (and then doing it his second year -- although his play was much worse). I still have a warm place in my heart for VY as a Texas alum, and quickly concede his knuckleheadedness (new word?), thin skin and inability to deal with adversity in the pros (e.g. Jeff Fisher openly hating him from almost day one). But it's pretty much the same thing with more hype this time around.

I see more potential for Tebow in Denver than VY in Tennessee because he actually has a coach who seems to be 100% behind him, even if management (see Elway) may not be. While VY reacted awfully and inexcusably to his treatment by Jeff Fisher, Fish treated him like a yo-yo for 4 years, wins or not, and VY never knew where he stood from one game to the next.

[Duvall]

Well I couldn't disagree with this more.

Strip away Tebow's Christianity and he'd still be racking up the headlines. I mean, it's an interesting story, whether you like him or not. A kid who won the Heisman but was never considered the prototypical college quarterback and who is widely criticized for his decision making and throwing motion gets caught up in a quarterback controversy at the start of the season, where even his own teammates are behind the scenes threatening near revolt if he's named the starting QB. Analysts say it will be a joke if he ever starts an NFL game. Pundits make fun of how purely awful he is and how he was drafted so high. This same QB is then inserted into the starting lineup after his predecessor fails miserably and is later cut by the team. This same quarterback then goes on to win 6 out of 7 games, most of them not only in exciting comebacks, but in an unusual fashion.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that he kneels down and points to the sky. That's a nice little side piece, but strip that away and you still have an interesting, unusual and newsworthy story.

Kind of reminds me of Doug Flutie's time in Buffalo, down to the quarterback controversy. Got some attention, but not nearly this much.

(To be fair, Flutie's mistake may have been playing well for four quarters and failing to wait for the last minute (or beyond) to secure the win.)

[Matches]

I see more potential for Tebow in Denver than VY in Tennessee because he actually has a coach who seems to be 100% behind him, even if management (see Elway) may not be. While VY reacted awfully and inexcusably to his treatment by Jeff Fisher, Fish treated him like a yo-yo for 4 years, wins or not, and VY never knew where he stood from one game to the next.

Elway may not like Tebow but he's stuck with him for the foreseeable future. No way they can make a change after this season. Fox plays things so close to the vest it's often impossible to know his true feelings - but I've said upthread and will say again that Denver's offense right now is pure Foxball.

[cspan37421]

(To be fair, Flutie's mistake may have been playing well for four quarters and failing to wait for the last minute (or beyond) to secure the win.)

IMO, Flutie's mistake was playing for Wade Phillips.

But you're right, there are some similarities. Flutie had trouble seeing over the offensive line ... yet all he really ever did was win. Tebow's mechanics and (as I've heard) accuracy are really suspect. But all the guy does is win. That said, he's not a winning QB without that defense, without a kicker hitting two 50+ yarders, without a whole bunch of people making good plays. There's a saying about leadership - it's the ability to find a parade and get in front of it. To me, that explains at least half of what we're seeing. Sure, he's been great late. But perhaps a better QB could put the game away earlier?

[davekay1971]

This may be less about God supporting Tim Tebow than God having fun torturing people who are sick of hearing about how God must be supporting Tim Tebow.

:cool:

[Matches]

This may be less about God supporting Tim Tebow than God having fun torturing people who are sick of hearing about how God must be supporting Tim Tebow.

:cool:

I saw a tweet today that what's happening with the Broncos is either proof that God exists, or proof that he doesn't. :)

[SupaDave]

IMO, Flutie's mistake was playing for Wade Phillips.

But you're right, there are some similarities. Flutie had trouble seeing over the offensive line ... yet all he really ever did was win. Tebow's mechanics and (as I've heard) accuracy are really suspect. But all the guy does is win. That said, he's not a winning QB without that defense, without a kicker hitting two 50+ yarders, without a whole bunch of people making good plays. There's a saying about leadership - it's the ability to find a parade and get in front of it. To me, that explains at least half of what we're seeing. Sure, he's been great late. But perhaps a better QB could put the game away earlier?

That defense also gets the luxury of being fresh most of the game b/c the Denver offense slows the game down. No hurry up offense and they rarely give the opposing offense the ball more than 60 yards away from the goalline.

Wanna really test the Tebow theory? See how many times Denver has won the coin toss. That could be HUGE.

[Stray Gator]

That defense also gets the luxury of being fresh most of the game b/c the Denver offense slows the game down. No hurry up offense and they rarely give the opposing offense the ball more than 60 yards away from the goalline.

Wanna really test the Tebow theory? See how many times Denver has won the coin toss. That could be HUGE.

Don't be ridiculous. They never let Tebow do the coin toss anymore. Last time he did, the coin disintegrated upon re-entering Earth's atmosphere.

[Newton_14]

Well I couldn't disagree with this more.

Strip away Tebow's Christianity and he'd still be racking up the headlines. I mean, it's an interesting story, whether you like him or not. A kid who won the Heisman but was never considered the prototypical college quarterback and who is widely criticized for his decision making and throwing motion gets caught up in a quarterback controversy at the start of the season, where even his own teammates are behind the scenes threatening near revolt if he's named the starting QB. Analysts say it will be a joke if he ever starts an NFL game. Pundits make fun of how purely awful he is and how he was drafted so high. This same QB is then inserted into the starting lineup after his predecessor fails miserably and is later cut by the team. This same quarterback then goes on to win 6 out of 7 games, most of them not only in exciting comebacks, but in an unusual fashion.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the fact that he kneels down and points to the sky. That's a nice little side piece, but strip that away and you still have an interesting, unusual and newsworthy story.

I tend to agree with this. The media is certainly playing up the Christian angle to the story, but I very much agree that the other items are what make the story. It's funny, because in most cases, "The Media Buildeth Up" followed by "The Media Teareth Down". See Duke Basketball circa late 1980's (Duke, the darling of the Final Four) to late 1990's/2000's (Billy Packer screaming in the middle of a FF game against the Terps: Duke is Getting ALL OF THE CALLS IN THIS COMEBACK).

With Tebow, it has been the reverse. The media and experts declared him a bust/bum/drafted way too high/will never make it/sideshow, etc and now low and behold the media is driving Tebow Mania.

Throaty's correct on the scriptures and there is a delicate balance between setting a good example to others by praying vs drawing attention to oneself and making a show out of praying. Only Tim knows which bucket his prayers fall into there, but I am not about to judge him. That's between him and the good Lord above..

[killerleft]

I tend to agree with this. The media is certainly playing up the Christian angle to the story, but I very much agree that the other items are what make the story. It's funny, because in most cases, "The Media Buildeth Up" followed by "The Media Teareth Down". See Duke Basketball circa late 1980's (Duke, the darling of the Final Four) to late 1990's/2000's (Billy Packer screaming in the middle of a FF game against the Terps: Duke is Getting ALL OF THE CALLS IN THIS COMEBACK).

With Tebow, it has been the reverse. The media and experts declared him a bust/bum/drafted way too high/will never make it/sideshow, etc and now low and behold the media is driving Tebow Mania.

Throaty's correct on the scriptures and there is a delicate balance between setting a good example to others by praying vs drawing attention to oneself and making a show out of praying. Only Tim knows which bucket his prayers fall into there, but I am not about to judge him. That's between him and the good Lord above..

A quote that sheds some shadow on the Anti-Tebowing theory:

While amongst others:

John 11:41b to 42: Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

THEN Jesus withdrew to a place of privacy to pray.

Apparently, thanks to the Father is allowable. But I am certainly NOT an expert. I just googled for a response to this question. Isn't THANKS, rather than prayer, what Tebowing is all about?

And wouldn't it be in character that Tebow got it right?

[Matches]

With Tebow, it has been the reverse. The media and experts declared him a bust/bum/drafted way too high/will never make it/sideshow, etc and now low and behold the media is driving Tebow Mania.



Having listened to Evan & Phillips (sans Phillips) talking Tebow for three straight days during the 7 am drive hour, I'd have to agree with this. Tebow is Favre-ian gold for the media.

[tommy]

A quote that sheds some shadow on the Anti-Tebowing theory:

While amongst others:

John 11:41b to 42: Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

THEN Jesus withdrew to a place of privacy to pray.

Apparently, thanks to the Father is allowable. But I am certainly NOT an expert. I just googled for a response to this question. Isn't THANKS, rather than prayer, what Tebowing is all about?

And wouldn't it be in character that Tebow got it right?

I'm not a Christian and have never read the New Testament, so excuse my ignorance, but I've always wondered when a religious guy like Tebow lifts up his eyes to thank the Father for hearing him after the game has been won, why he doesn't lift up his eyes to thank the Father for hearing him after a game is lost? Has the Father not heard his prayers? Unlikely he believes the Father only hears some prayers but not others. Is the Father not thank-worthy unless the prayers are answered with a win? Is the Father really concerned with who's winning and losing football games, such that He hears and answers some prayers related to football but not others? What if there are guys praying to the Father on both sides of the ball, as there undoubtedly are? What's the deal on all this?

[feldspar]

I'm not a Christian and have never read the New Testament, so excuse my ignorance, but I've always wondered when a religious guy like Tebow lifts up his eyes to thank the Father for hearing him after the game has been won, why he doesn't lift up his eyes to thank the Father for hearing him after a game is lost? Has the Father not heard his prayers? Unlikely he believes the Father only hears some prayers but not others. Is the Father not thank-worthy unless the prayers are answered with a win? Is the Father really concerned with who's winning and losing football games, such that He hears and answers some prayers related to football but not others? What if there are guys praying to the Father on both sides of the ball, as there undoubtedly are? What's the deal on all this?

Here's my take.

People who think people like Tebow pray to win the game and think people like Tebow actually believe God is a Broncos fan either have no idea about what it means to have faith or just plain are trying to stir up religious crap.

I don't for a second believe that Tebow thinks God is a Broncos fan or even that God helps the Broncos win. I think Tebow believes he's been blessed with some pretty special skills. Skills he may not have otherwise been blessed with were it not for his faith.

When Tebow kneels, or points to the sky, I have very little doubt in my mind that he's thinking "Thanks for giving me this opportunity to excel at something so amazing, God" rather than "Thanks for handing us the win, God. I'm sure glad you're a Broncos fan."

There's a distinct difference that is lost on people who just want to play the "crazy religious people" card.

[Duvall]

Here's my take.

People who think people like Tebow pray to win the game and think people like Tebow actually believe God is a Broncos fan either have no idea about what it means to have faith or just plain are trying to stir up religious crap.

I don't for a second believe that Tebow thinks God is a Broncos fan or even that God helps the Broncos win.

Well, except that *Tebow* seems to feel that way. (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19527521?obref=obnetwork)


"I believe in a big God and special things can happen," Tebow said Sunday, after the Broncos defeated the Bears 13-10, only because the Broncos believed they couldn't lose.

How deeply do the Broncos believe?

Well, here's a story certain to cause churchgoers to thump a Bible with a loud "Amen!" and skeptics to roll their eyes at the crazy thought of mixing religion with sports.

"Tebow came to me and said, 'Don't worry about a thing,' because God has spoken to him," linebacker Wesley Woodyard told me in a quiet corner of the Denver locker room.

[Highlander]

I'm not a Christian and have never read the New Testament, so excuse my ignorance, but I've always wondered when a religious guy like Tebow lifts up his eyes to thank the Father for hearing him after the game has been won, why he doesn't lift up his eyes to thank the Father for hearing him after a game is lost? Has the Father not heard his prayers? Unlikely he believes the Father only hears some prayers but not others. Is the Father not thank-worthy unless the prayers are answered with a win? Is the Father really concerned with who's winning and losing football games, such that He hears and answers some prayers related to football but not others? What if there are guys praying to the Father on both sides of the ball, as there undoubtedly are? What's the deal on all this?

I'll try very carefully to stay out of PP territory here...

I'd encourage you to read a bit of the book of Job, which is Old Testament, and attempts to tackle your question. The crux of the story is that God tells Satan what a great, faithful, and righteous man Job is. The devil responds, saying "well of course he is, you've blessed him with riches, land, and an abundant family. Take all that away and he would no longer be faithful or righteous." God agrees to the challenge, and subsequently strips Job of everything, burning his house, killing his family, and taking his riches. Job never loses his faith in God, despite losing everything he has. He does question why he is being punished. God explains that he has a plan for everyone, and it is not for Job to try and understand.

Essentially, you give thanks for what you have, however meager or great it is. While you don't necessarily give thanks when bad things happen, you accept them and don't dwell on them, and look on the bright side and give thanks for what you do have. As to whether Tebow prays after losses, I don't know, but I would be surprised if he doesn't. Many times I have seen a post game prayer where both teams, winners and losers, participate.

[feldspar]

Well, except that *Tebow* seems to feel that way. (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19527521?obref=obnetwork)

Okay, well, you got me with that one.

[killerleft]

Well, except that *Tebow* seems to feel that way. (http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19527521?obref=obnetwork)

An excellent story. Tebow's "revelation" occurred on Nov. 17th. Storybook material. Perhaps the last line of the story is the best one: Maybe what you believe is not as important as believing it with all your heart.

It recalls that famous call by Al Michaels, "Tell you what, we're having an earthqua...". It's enough to make you feel placid.:o

Read more: Kiszla: Tim Tebow has the Broncos believing they can't lose - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_19527521?obref=obnetwork#ixzz1gXq5s6rj
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

[tommy]

Here's my take.

I don't for a second believe that Tebow thinks God is a Broncos fan or even that God helps the Broncos win. I think Tebow believes he's been blessed with some pretty special skills. Skills he may not have otherwise been blessed with were it not for his faith.

When Tebow kneels, or points to the sky, I have very little doubt in my mind that he's thinking "Thanks for giving me this opportunity to excel at something so amazing, God" rather than "Thanks for handing us the win, God. I'm sure glad you're a Broncos fan."

You may be right. But if that's the case, then why don't we see Tebow, after a Broncos loss, kneeling or pointing to the sky, thanking God for blessing him with those special skills and thanking God for the opportunity to excel at something so amazing?

[Indoor66]

You may be right. But if that's the case, then why don't we see Tebow, after a Broncos loss, kneeling or pointing to the sky, thanking God for blessing him with those special skills and thanking God for the opportunity to excel at something so amazing?

Maybe that is not a big enough story for the press to cover. Tebow doesn't take the pictures.

[feldspar]

You may be right. But if that's the case, then why don't we see Tebow, after a Broncos loss, kneeling or pointing to the sky, thanking God for blessing him with those special skills and thanking God for the opportunity to excel at something so amazing?

How do you know he doesn't do that?

[Turk]

I'll try very carefully to stay out of PP territory here...

I'd encourage you to read a bit of the book of Job, which is Old Testament, and attempts to tackle your question. The crux of the story is that God tells Satan what a great, faithful, and righteous man Job is. The devil responds, saying "well of course he is, you've blessed him with riches, land, and an abundant family. Take all that away and he would no longer be faithful or righteous." God agrees to the challenge, and subsequently strips Job of everything, burning his house, killing his family, and taking his riches. Job never loses his faith in God, despite losing everything he has. He does question why he is being punished. God explains that he has a plan for everyone, and it is not for Job to try and understand.



Easy for me to stay out of PP territory... Sounds a lot like Trading Places...

"No, I don't think that would be enough for Winthorpe. We'd have to heap a little more misfortune on those narrow shoulders. If he lost his job and his home and his fiancée and his friends.
If he were somehow disgraced and arrested by the police and thrown in jail, even. Yes, I'm sure he'd take to crime like a fish to water..."

Looking good, Louis!! :-)

[cato]

You may be right. But if that's the case, then why don't we see Tebow, after a Broncos loss, kneeling or pointing to the sky, thanking God for blessing him with those special skills and thanking God for the opportunity to excel at something so amazing?

Trick question. Tebow doesn't lose.

[Verga3]

You may be right. But if that's the case, then why don't we see Tebow, after a Broncos loss, kneeling or pointing to the sky, thanking God for blessing him with those special skills and thanking God for the opportunity to excel at something so amazing?

Maybe because he's pissed at losing? Just a wild guess.

[Mike Corey]

The last time a white Bronco was this widely discussed was 1994.

We're collectively thinking about this too hard. A quarterback of a team that has been down on its luck is enjoying some, with an all-time college great steering the franchise back into relevancy. That's newsworthy. Whether or not you're a Tebowangelist, whether or not you're a fan of the NFL, there's something to be said for the lack of reason behind Denver's sudden surge.

Mark Sanchez and the Jets did it a few years ago; the Broncos are doing it now. It's all part of the joy of the game.

[Turk]

Trick question. Tebow doesn't lose.

Tebow hasn't played the Steelers yet.

[killerleft]

Tebow hasn't played the Steelers yet.

I see the folks at Greasy Lake are as froggy as the Bears were.:D

[Verga3]

For Rick Perry...

"I played with Tim Tebow, I know Tim Tebow, Tim Tebow is a friend of mine...You, sir are no Tim Tebow."

With my apologies to Lloyd Bentsen and his family, God rest his soul.

[Verga3]

For Rick Perry...

"I played with Tim Tebow, I know Tim Tebow, Tim Tebow is a friend of mine...You, sir are no Tim Tebow."

With my apologies to Lloyd Bentsen and his family, God rest his soul.

Should added this link for those not watching debates in 1988. I know, I know you were in 5th grade...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-7gpgXNWYI

[Verga3]

What do you think? Should be a good game.

On ESPN, Skip Bayless picked Tebow over Brady, without question. He felt his comeback/4th Quarter attributes trumped Brady today, even respecting Brady's history. Stephen A. Smith vehemently disagreed...and almost cursed Bayless on the air (staged). Patriots win IMO, but Denver is at home and has a really good defense. Let's see. Great NFL theater.

[Mike Corey]

SNL lampooned Mr. Tebow (http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tebow/1374394) last night.

As to the game, the Patriots are the better team, which means the Broncos will probably win.

[moonpie23]

the cheaters are going to embarrass the broncos today....

[davekay1971]

Skip Bayless picked Tebow over Brady, without question. He felt his comeback/4th Quarter attributes trumped Brady today, even respecting Brady's history. Stephen A. Smith vehemently disagreed...

Brady vs. Tebow is like putting Mike Tyson (at his prime) in the ring with me. That's just an ugly comparison, and it's not going to go any better for Tebow than a 1988 bout with Tyson would have gone for me. This isn't a rip on Tebow - but any kind of realistic (ie: secular) comparison of Tebow to Brady, at this point in their careers, is laughable.

Fortunately for Tebow and the Broncos, it's not Tebow vs. Brady. It's the Bronco's very poor (but with a tendency to do what needs to be done with the game on the line) offense, led by their inaccurate and ineffective (but with a tendency to do what needs to be done with the game on the line) quarterback against the Patriots injured and less-than-intimidating defense; and the Patriot's potent offense led by an all-time great quarterback versus the Bronco's stellar defense.

I expect a very interesting game seeing if which is stronger - Broncos defense or Patriots offense. But there's no drama in the Tebow-Brady comparison. Brady over Tebow as handily as the hypothetical '88 Tyson over Kay.

(Leading to the aside question: how much of a payday would be needed for you to step into the ring with 1988 Mike Tyson? Hmmm...off topic thread on craziest sports-related things you'd do for money, and how much would it take...?)

[moonpie23]

i HATE the cheaters.....not brady, but the coach........

if the cheaters get tebowed, i'll .....i'll......dang.....i'll say that this is a magical season for the broncos....



cheaters 38 broncos 9

[Verga3]

It's 41-23 New England with 1:00 minute to play. Looks like no one has left the stadium...

[feldspar]

Broncos lose. I think the burning question on everyone's mind is....did he still Tebow?

[tommy]

How do you know he doesn't do that?

CBS didn't show him doing it today as or after they got worked over by New England. I'd think that if he had, they would have zoomed right in on it.

[hurleyfor3]

It's been fun watching the Broncos and all, but as soon as they face a real team in the playoffs (NE/Balt/Pit) they're done.

*ahem*

[killerleft]

*ahem*


The thud you heard was not from surprise (hardly), but was the possible end of a feel-good story that transcended the usual NFL fare. Now it's back to epitome of media-driven sport, with every play covered from every angle every time you want it and more. Every point of view will be given voice, and the Super Bowl "happening" lasts for two weeks and ends in a flurry of new commercials, fittingly.

Ahem, indeed.

It's back to the English Premier League, for me.

[theAlaskanBear]

The thud you heard was not from surprise (hardly), but was the possible end of a feel-good story that transcended the usual NFL fare. Now it's back to epitome of media-driven sport, with every play covered from every angle every time you want it and more. Every point of view will be given voice, and the Super Bowl "happening" lasts for two weeks and ends in a flurry of new commercials, fittingly.

Ahem, indeed.

It's back to the English Premier League, for me.

I fail to see how Tebow was a feel-good story and not the epitome of media-driven sport, which you so eloquently described above. The whole Tebow story was awash in manufactured controversy from day 1. Not a single day went by on Sportscenter without a Tebow segment, and for the past 3 months the only topic covered on ESPNs variety show lineup was Tebowmania.

I do wish you luck with the EPL. Fortunately baseball, college basketball, and the NBA take me through most of the NFL season.

[moonpie23]

the cheaters are going to embarrass the broncos today....

ahem. (hack, cough, snort, wheeze)


I don't usually make predictions, but you could see this coming a mile away.

[Stray Gator]

CBS didn't show him doing it today as or after they got worked over by New England. I'd think that if he had, they would have zoomed right in on it.

Here's a brief report on what Tebow did immediately after the game:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82533f7d/article/tebows-day-not-ruined-by-highprofile-loss-to-patriots?campaign=Twitter_features

[Matches]

I actually thought Tebow played reasonably well, fumbles aside. He didn't look great but he looked like a competent NFL QB. He made a heady play to prevent a safety and was pretty adept at eluding the rush. The 30-yard sack was silly but it was the Broncos' last play - can't really fault him for trying to make something happen.

I still believe the guy is a marginal, at best, NFL QB, but I see him sticking around the league at least 5-6 years, not bad by most standards.

[killerleft]

I fail to see how Tebow was a feel-good story and not the epitome of media-driven sport, which you so eloquently described above. The whole Tebow story was awash in manufactured controversy from day 1. Not a single day went by on Sportscenter without a Tebow segment, and for the past 3 months the only topic covered on ESPNs variety show lineup was Tebowmania.

I do wish you luck with the EPL. Fortunately baseball, college basketball, and the NBA take me through most of the NFL season.

Well, you're right, I concede. I guess it is my perception that is skewed . I don't watch the between-game build-ups, and only catch an occasional game. It is a feel-good story for me, in that a great athlete/unusual NFL quarterback has been at the helm of a team that has blossomed since he became their leader. Hopefully Denver can get re-started and finish the year strong. Other than the Tebow story, this has been another yawny NFL year.

[killerleft]

ahem. (hack, cough, snort, wheeze)

I don't usually make predictions, but you could see this coming a mile away.

As you say, a mile away. But you predicted the previous Denver wins and their sometimes improbable finishes? Now THAT would be some serious predicting. This story may not be over yet. The odds are certainly against Denver winning it all, but Tebow & Co. can still have a strong season.

[sagegrouse]

I actually thought Tebow played reasonably well, fumbles aside. He didn't look great but he looked like a competent NFL QB. He made a heady play to prevent a safety and was pretty adept at eluding the rush. The 30-yard sack was silly but it was the Broncos' last play - can't really fault him for trying to make something happen.

I still believe the guy is a marginal, at best, NFL QB, but I see him sticking around the league at least 5-6 years, not bad by most standards.

Yesterday may have been Tebow's best game. And if he can put up reasonable passing stats as a drop-back QB, then he'll be one of the best players in the league because of all the extra offense he can generate through the run (he's an exceptional fullback) and the threat of the run.

Yesterday here in Steamboat Springs, CO, I decided the best time to Christmas shop was during the Broncos' game. So I
"Tebowed" the game and watched it later. Of course, all the shop clerks had to hear my one lame joke of the season.

sage

[hurleyfor3]

Yesterday here in Steamboat Springs, CO, I decided the best time to Christmas shop was during the Broncos' game. So I
"Tebowed" the game and watched it later. Of course, all the shop clerks had to hear my one lame joke of the season.

Oh please, everyone was out skiing. (You learn pretty fast up here to plan your activities around when the lifts run.)

[JohnGalt]

It's back to the English Premier League, for me.

So do you keep your avatar as is in remembrance of a Special One lost?

[JohnGalt]

I don't have a problem with Tebow. In fact, I'm sort of onboard with it all. A good kid winning games is a nice storyline.

What's annoying is flipping on the TV and The Herd, the DP Show, and First Take are all talking about it AT THE SAME TIME.

Ugghh. Enough.

[CDu]

Yesterday may have been Tebow's best game. And if he can put up reasonable passing stats as a drop-back QB, then he'll be one of the best players in the league because of all the extra offense he can generate through the run (he's an exceptional fullback) and the threat of the run.

Yesterday here in Steamboat Springs, CO, I decided the best time to Christmas shop was during the Broncos' game. So I
"Tebowed" the game and watched it later. Of course, all the shop clerks had to hear my one lame joke of the season.

sage

I don't know that I'd say it was his best game. I mean, it was coming against perhaps the worst pass defense in the NFL. I'd say his game against Minnesota or Oakland was better. But it was one of his better games. The funny thing is that the media follow up has mostly been "New England shut down Tebow" which is inaccurate. Tebow had a solid game, and his offense actually scored the third most points it has scored under Tebow this year. The offense just didn't get bailed out by a great defensive/special teams effort this week.

I agree with you that if Tebow can be an adequate passer he'll be a force. I just really question whether he'll ever be accurate enough as a passer. His delivery is REALLY long, and he's pretty inaccurate. He makes a lot of plays with his legs, but he's feasted mostly off of soft prevent defenses late in games (and two really bad pass defenses in Minnesota and New England). We've yet to really see him be an adequate drop-back QB. And as such, the offense has been pretty blah. Denver's offense has generated more than 20 points in just 3 of Tebow's 9 starts this year.

It'll be interesting to see his development as it continues. Eventually, I think defenses are going to learn not to play prevent defense late in games against him. 2/3 of the teams that have played him this year shut him down for 3.5 quarters, and then softened their coverages late to "prevent the big play." Will he be able to improve his throwing motion enough to be a passer against normal defense? Will he figure out a way to make that not matter? And/or will defenses make the late-game adjustments to turn him into a 4-quarter dud instead of a 3.5 quarter dud?

[killerleft]

So do you keep your avatar as is in remembrance of a Special One lost?

Kind of, I guess. I have been watching EPL for a few years now. Still don't have a favorite team. I had to google back then to find out how Mourinho got his nickname. Funny.

To get a bit on topic, Peter Crouch may be a weird match in soccer for Tim Tebow. Doesn't seem to fit the part, but produces some good play all the same. Scored an excellent goal this past weekend, always has to be accounted for, and puts lots of pressure on a defense. Uh, he's my favorite player.

[SoCalDukeFan]

On MNF I heard that teams that win the turnover battle win 81% of the games this year.

Denver with Tebow has done a good job, until Sunday, of not turning the ball over.

SoCal

[Olympic Fan]

Interesting polling data:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/12/packers-are-the-real-americas-team.html

By a very narrow margin, Tim Tebow is America's favorite NFL QB.

By a wide margin, the Green Bay Packer's are America's favorite team.

The Cowboys -- the self-proclaimed America's team -- have a strong fan base, BUT when asked what is your least favorite team, the Cowboys lead that vote by a wide margin.

PS While I love to see the Cowboys voted America's Least Favorite team, I wonder what the results would be in PPP did a similar poll for NCAA basketball?

[Wander]

PS While I love to see the Cowboys voted America's Least Favorite team, I wonder what the results would be in PPP did a similar poll for NCAA basketball?

I don't remember if it was very scientific or anything but I seem to remember hearing that it goes Duke-Carolina as the two most hated teams, in that order, and Carolina-Duke as the two most loved teams, in that order. Which is believable to me.

[sagegrouse]

Interesting polling data:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/12/packers-are-the-real-americas-team.html

By a very narrow margin, Tim Tebow is America's favorite NFL QB.

By a wide margin, the Green Bay Packer's are America's favorite team.

The Cowboys -- the self-proclaimed America's team -- have a strong fan base, BUT when asked what is your least favorite team, the Cowboys lead that vote by a wide margin.

PS While I love to see the Cowboys voted America's Least Favorite team, I wonder what the results would be in PPP did a similar poll for NCAA basketball?

If you are a team that usually loses or a winning team that receives little media converage, no one hates you.

These polls on "most liked" - "least liked" are similar to the big city glossies that conduct restaurant surveys. The "best restaurant" is usually voted the "most overrated." Any such voting is dominated by the establishments that are really well known.

sagegrouse

[77devil]

If you are a team that usually loses or a winning team that receives little media converage, no one hates you.

These polls on "most liked" - "least liked" are similar to the big city glossies that conduct restaurant surveys. The "best restaurant" is usually voted the "most overrated." Any such voting is dominated by the establishments that are really well known.

sagegrouse

When I opened this thread with Sage's post, there was an add for Zagat restaurant rating service at the top That's a little creepy.

[snowdenscold]

When I opened this thread with Sage's post, there was an add for Zagat restaurant rating service at the top That's a little creepy.

But somewhat expected, right? I guess I'm used to things like that from using Gmail.

Of course, the only ads I see on DBR now are when I have to use Safari on my iPhone/iPad (I won the latter for free - I'm not a crazy Mac nut).

[Turk]

Tebow hasn't played the Steelers yet.

Careful what you wish for, eh?

I'd prefer the Steelers opening with Oakland, not Denver. They haven't done well in Mile High (although some of that was Elway's fault as much as the elevation...)

[Duvall]

Tebow finishes the year ranked 27th in NFL passer rating (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2011&seasonType=REG), between Colt McCoy and Rex Grossman.

[hurleyfor3]

Careful what you wish for, eh?

I'd prefer the Steelers opening with Oakland, not Denver. They haven't done well in Mile High (although some of that was Elway's fault as much as the elevation...)

Funny, I think of the Steelers as historically doing well in Denver. There was the 2006 AFC Championship game and the 2009 Monday night game when the rest of the season was pretty forgettable, and also the 1984 playoff win in the Chuck Noll era when the Steelers were completely overmatched. Leading up to that game a radio station in Pittsburgh ran a parody of the Ghostbusters theme song with "Go Steelers" replacing "Ghostbusters".

Also, I live here. I can go to the game. :)

[CDu]

Tebow finishes the year ranked 27th in NFL passer rating (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2011&seasonType=REG), between Colt McCoy and Rex Grossman.

The atrocious performance Tebow gave against KC (6-22, 60 yards, 2 turnovers) in the finale certainly didn't help. Maybe teams figured out that they shouldn't switch to prevent defense at the end of games against Tebow?

The good news for the Broncos is that they play in a terrible division, so they still made the playoffs despite losing their last 3 games. The bad news is that they have to face the Steelers defense.

[Turk]

Funny, I think of the Steelers as historically doing well in Denver. There was the 2006 AFC Championship game and the 2009 Monday night game when the rest of the season was pretty forgettable, and also the 1984 playoff win in the Chuck Noll era when the Steelers were completely overmatched. Leading up to that game a radio station in Pittsburgh ran a parody of the Ghostbusters theme song with "Go Steelers" replacing "Ghostbusters".

Also, I live here. I can go to the game. :)

Well that's good enough for me... :cool:

It is funny which memories stick and which ones don't. I'd forgotten about the Mark Malone (!) game in 1984, but I remembered the game Bubby Brister (!!) almost stole from Elway in 1990, and a Kordell Stewart loss in '98. I didn't mind so much if Denver won, because at least that was better than the Raiders or the Browns... (yes, young'uns, the Browns were good once upon a time, way back in the last century...) So let's get some stats, shall we?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/game_query.cgi?tm1=den&tm2=pit&yr=all

If that's true, Steelers are 10-16-1 vs Denver overall, 5-9-1 at Mile High, including 2-2 in playoffs.

[Stray Gator]

Good for Tim and the Broncos.

[Indoor66]

Seems like Tebow and the Broncos took down Big Ben and the Steelers. Tebow looked real good.

[Stray Gator]

Did they just say that Tebow had the most yards throwing against the #1 defense this season? What a great game.

[OldPhiKap]

Nice game, got it done at crunch time.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

WOW! Just WOW! Tebow time again in one play!

[77devil]

Have to give credit where credit is due. Tebow played an outstanding game, and the last pass was a tight spiral on the money.

[moonpie23]

he will have his own 24hr channel.

wow. just freakin wow !

[OldPhiKap]

{of course, the blown defense on that last play had something to do with the result too. But the defense provides in mysterious ways. . . .}

[Stray Gator]

{of course, the blown defense on that last play had something to do with the result too. But the defense provides in mysterious ways. . . .}

The "blown" defense appeared to be a strategic decision by the Steelers to have the safeties cheat up towards the line of scrimmage because they were expecting Denver to run the ball on first down--as Denver has customarily, routinely done. Credit the Broncos' coaches with outfoxing (:rolleyes:) the Steelers' defensive coaches and having the confidence in their QB and receiver to make a gutsy call with so much on the line. And maybe a little credit to the QB and receiver for executing the play.

[OldPhiKap]

Tebow was 10/21. Happy he hit that last pass (I was pulling for Denver) but the receiver made the play. Tebow certainly hit him in stride, but it was an open defensive backfield and the throw was a simple drag/cross.

More power to Tim, I'm not a hater. But it deserves a little perspective.

[hurleyfor3]

I'm back from the game. I'm not turning on my teevee until the Broncos lose again, which might be sometime in October. At least the drive up I-70 was pretty, with the light of the full moon reflecting off fresh snow.

Elway earlier was telling Tebow to "gun it", which clearly meant, "you know how you play in the fourth quarter? Try playing the entire game that way." As it turned out, the way to beat the #1 passing defense was to throw over it, and the way to win in overtime is to do the thing that worked the best in regulation. I guess being guillotined beats digestion by the Sarlac pit, which is what the second quarter felt like.

Make no mistake though, the Broncos took advantage of some pretty fortuitous circumstances. They converted, though, and deserved to win.

[dball]

Make no mistake though, the Broncos took advantage of some pretty fortuitous circumstances. They converted, though, and deserved to win.

Certainly not everything went the Broncos way.

1--Champ Bailey, one of the best DBs in the League, drops a pick (did Steelers score thereafter?)
2--"inadvertent" whistle allows Pittsburgh to keep dropped lateral (Steelers later scored)
3--no face mask call when Tebow grabbed

[Indoor66]

Certainly not everything went the Broncos way.

1--Champ Bailey, one of the best DBs in the League, drops a pick (did Steelers score thereafter?)
2--"inadvertent" whistle allows Pittsburgh to keep dropped lateral (Steelers later scored)
3--no face mask call when Tebow grabbed

I did not see the whole game but I am sure there were calls that went the Steelers way and they did not score. Denver got some of the usual breaks that happen in football games and used them to win the game. The Steelers did not benefit themselves the same way and lost the game. Tebow was terrific.

[blazindw]

Tebow was 10/21. Happy he hit that last pass (I was pulling for Denver) but the receiver made the play. Tebow certainly hit him in stride, but it was an open defensive backfield and the throw was a simple drag/cross.

More power to Tim, I'm not a hater. But it deserves a little perspective.

Thank you. If you hadn't watched the game and only watched Sportscenter, you probably woulda thought that Tebow threw an 80-yard bomb in the air to himself in the endzone. That's the thing I hate most about Tebow mania...he once again disappeared in the 3rd and even the 4th quarter, but one play and everyone tells us that he won the whole thing by himself.

[OldPhiKap]

Drudge Headline:

"Tebow Throws For 3:16 Yards"

I must admit I chuckled at that one.

[hurleyfor3]

2--"inadvertent" whistle allows Pittsburgh to keep dropped lateral (Steelers later scored)

Well, if you're gonna whine about the officiating, how about letting the Broncos off for challenging an unchallengable play? What about the very late pass interference flag against the Steelers, thrown by an official so far away from the play I was certain it was Dick Paparo? Guess teevee doen't show that 17 times like it's a disputed lateral.

I was thinking more about things at the end of the game that directly affected the outcome, such as the Steelers' fumbling the snap when they were one first down away from field goal range because they didn't have a real center. Turns out the guy the Steelers missed the most yesterday was Pouincy. Oh, and the Broncos winning the overtime coin toss. That kind of mattered. But I guess Tebow caused that.

[hurleyfor3]

That's the thing I hate most about Tebow mania...he once again disappeared in the 3rd and even the 4th quarter, but one play and everyone tells us that he won the whole thing by himself.

Tebow threw for 200 yards and allowed the Broncos to score on four possessions (20 points) in a single quarter. What the hell else do you want him to do? Did you have the Broncos and 70? Please stop; you're making me stick up for Tebow as a Steelers fan.

[killerleft]

Thank you. If you hadn't watched the game and only watched Sportscenter, you probably woulda thought that Tebow threw an 80-yard bomb in the air to himself in the endzone. That's the thing I hate most about Tebow mania...he once again disappeared in the 3rd and even the 4th quarter, but one play and everyone tells us that he won the whole thing by himself.

Well, it WAS simply DEVINE, dahling!

[moonpie23]

what does the guy have to do to get some respect? win the Super Bowl and everyone says its the "rest of the team instead". sheesh. I hope he DOES run the table.

[Mike Corey]

Tim Tebow: The most widely respected and disrespected quarterback in the NFL.

[JNort]

what does the guy have to do to get some respect? win the Super Bowl and everyone says its the "rest of the team instead". sheesh. I hope he DOES run the table.

It would help if he was good. People are not doubting his will and all that stuff. He has just been a bad qb in terms of throwing the ball all year for the most part. If he could improve his accuracy and ability to read and react to the defense in passing situations he would get more respect. It only seems like people are disrespecting him because many people are making him seem great where he has not been and realistic observers point out his flaws or what he is doing wrong.

[JNort]

what does the guy have to do to get some respect? win the Super Bowl and everyone says its the "rest of the team instead". sheesh. I hope he DOES run the table.

O and for the record even if he does win the superbowl 28-0 I still will say he is a 3rd tier qb and not very good until he proves me wrong on a consistent basis.