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View Full Version : Tudor's inane take on Duke



arnie
10-29-2011, 07:06 AM
Tudor's comparison (see Home Page - Well Maybe) of this team with the 2006-2007 team shows his lack of research. The 2011-2012 team is so much more athletic at guard and so much deeper at all positions. I guess he needed something to write about and didn't care to do any research. I kind of think we'll do better than 22 wins and 8-8 in the ACC.

oldnavy
10-29-2011, 07:15 AM
Tudor's comparison (see Home Page - Well Maybe) of this team with the 2006-2007 team shows his lack of research. The 2011-2012 team is so much more athletic at guard and so much deeper at all positions. I guess he needed something to write about and didn't care to do any research. I kind of think we'll do better than 22 wins and 8-8 in the ACC.

If we lose 8 games in this years ACC I will be shocked and sad.

davekay1971
10-29-2011, 08:10 AM
Agreed completely. The experience level on this team may be comparable to 2006-2007, but the talent level is not at all comparable. We're big and athletic on the interior, have a matchup nightmare in RK, and have, potentially, the best perimeter in the country (which, if anyone hasn't noticed, is a pretty athletic group). There are plenty of question marks on this team, to be sure, but Tudor's simply way off in his assessment. I guess it's his inner Tarheel hopes brimming to the surface.

CDu
10-29-2011, 08:50 AM
Tudor's comparison (see Home Page - Well Maybe) of this team with the 2006-2007 team shows his lack of research. The 2011-2012 team is so much more athletic at guard and so much deeper at all positions. I guess he needed something to write about and didn't care to do any research. I kind of think we'll do better than 22 wins and 8-8 in the ACC.

In fairness, what Tudor said is accurate. He just said there are a lot of questions about this team and that there are some similarities. He didn't say we'd likely end up with only 22 wins and an 8-8 conference record.

His point was simply that this team, like the 2007 team, has to adjust from the loss of two fantastic senior stars, and must find the leadership and production lost.

I agree that this team is more equipped to do so than the 2007 team, which was much less experienced, much less deep, and arguably much less talented as well.

Bob Green
10-29-2011, 09:00 AM
Tudor's comparison (see Home Page - Well Maybe) of this team with the 2006-2007 team shows his lack of research. The 2011-2012 team is so much more athletic at guard and so much deeper at all positions. I guess he needed something to write about and didn't care to do any research. I kind of think we'll do better than 22 wins and 8-8 in the ACC.

In the end, I agree with you that this year's team will do better than 22 wins and 8-8 in the ACC; however, in fairness to Caulton Tudor, while there are striking differences between the 2011-12 and 2006-07 teams, some similarities do exist:

1. Both teams are without their major points contributors from the previous season. In 2011, Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler and Kyrie Irving scored 52.8% of the team's points, while in 2006, J.J. Redick and Shelden Williams accounted for 56.1%.

However, the 2006 numbers are much larger when you factor in Sean Dockery (256 points) and Lee Melchioni (206 points). The four seniors combined to score 72% of the team's points.

2. Neither the 2011-12 team nor the 2006-07 team return a double figure scorer. Seth Curry averaged 9.0 ppg in 2011 while Josh McRoberts averaged 8.7 ppg in 2006.

3. The 2006-07 team expected to receive heavy contributions from the four freshmen on the roster: Gerald Henderson, Jon Scheyer, Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek. The four combined to start 62 games as freshmen. I have no idea what the coaching staff's expectations are for 2011-12, but I do not believe I'm climbing out on a limb when I state Duke fans are expecting big contributions from the freshmen this season. Obviously, fans are mainly focused in on Austin Rivers, but expectations also exist for Alex Murphy and Quinn Cook. Mike Gbinije and Marshall Plumlee are pretty much out of the limelight at this time (at least in the World according to Bob).

4. Both teams feature tri-captains: DeMarcus Nelson, Josh McRoberts and Greg Paulus in 2007; Miles Plumlee, Ryan Kelly and Seth Curry this year. Okay, this point is inane, but whatever, it does contribute to post word count.

The glaring differences I see between the two teams are experience and depth. Looking at experience first, In 2007, junior DeMarcus Nelson was the only upperclassman on the team, while this year's team has five upperclassmen on the roster: Miles Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Seth Curry, Mason Plumlee and Andre Dawkins.

Turning our attention to depth, the 2007 squad featured only nine recruited scholarship players, while this year's team has 12.

Finally, if Duke fans only want to pay attention to a single sentence in Tudor's article, I recommend they focus on this one:


But it also was the season in which Scheyer, Lance Thomas and Brian Zoubek entered the program and began careers that culminated in the 2010 NCAA title.

Olympic Fan
10-29-2011, 09:50 AM
While I think you can equate what Duke LOST off last year's team to what the 2007 team lost after 2006, I don't think you can begin to compare what the two teams have returning.

The 2007 returned NO seniors and ONE junior -- and junior DeMarcus Nelson had been injured for much of his first two seasons.

They 2007 Devils did return two sophomore starters, but one of those -- Greg Paulus -- broke his foot in preseason. Although he returned in December, he was not the same player. Pretty tough to lose your starting point guard at the start of practice. The most talented member of thne freshman class (Gerald Henderson) was never at full speed that season. Another freshman (Lance Thomas) moved into the starting lineup at Christmas, then hurt his ankle and was a less effective player the rest of the season. Yet for all that, the team was in the top 10 most of the season and only started to slide late when David McClure suffered a back injury.

Compare that with what the 2012 team has returning: just one senior, but FOUR juniors -- FIVE UPPERCLASSMAN WHO EACH HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE THAT NELSON HAD IN 2007.

It's true that Duke doesn't return a double figure scorer. And it's true that the last time that happened was in 2007 when Duke "slumped" to 22-11, 8-8 in the ACC.

But the previous time that happened to Coach K was 2000, when he returned three upperclassmen and added a good freshman class. That inexperienced team won 29 games, went 15-1 in the ACC (18-1 counting the ACC Tourney) and finished the regular season ranked No. 1 in thne nation.

I kind of think this season will fall somewhere in between those two extremes -- closer to 2000 than 2007. I'm putting the over/under at 25 wins, 12 ACC wins, a top 10 finish and a No. 2 NCAA seed.

loldevilz
10-29-2011, 10:17 AM
Tudor's comparison (see Home Page - Well Maybe) of this team with the 2006-2007 team shows his lack of research. The 2011-2012 team is so much more athletic at guard and so much deeper at all positions. I guess he needed something to write about and didn't care to do any research. I kind of think we'll do better than 22 wins and 8-8 in the ACC.

If I recall correctly it was Coach K that made that comparison first. I agree with you though, this team isn't the most veteran team, but all its veterans are superb college players.

Scorp4me
10-29-2011, 11:00 AM
While I think you can equate what Duke LOST off last year's team to what the 2007 team lost after 2006, I don't think you can begin to compare what the two teams have returning.

Bingo. You said everything I wanted to say.

So my question is if 2006/20074 is the best comparison for what we lost...what's the best comparison for what we have returning? Anyone know? I don't, that's why I'm asking, lol.

Kedsy
10-29-2011, 11:06 AM
The experience level on this team may be comparable to 2006-2007...


...this team isn't the most veteran team...

Others have addressed the experience issue, but I want to stress that the experience level on our current team is not in any way comparable to 2006-07. The 2006-07 Duke team was the least experienced in the Coach K era. That team went into the season with only three players who'd played more than 185 career minutes (DeMarcus Nelson, 1151 minutes; Greg Paulus, 1163 minutes; Josh McRoberts, 883 minutes), and two of the three had only played one season. The rotation included only one upperclassman: four freshmen, three sophomores (one of whom barely played before that season) and one junior.

In contrast, the current roster has five upperclassmen among its top six players. Six of our players have played more than 300 career minutes, and five have played more than 900 minutes (Miles, 1447; Mason, 1429; Andre, 1255; Ryan, 970; Seth, 924 + however many minutes he played at Liberty; Tyler, 337). So while it's true that Miles and Ryan didn't play much their freshman year, I think this season we have very much a veteran team.

NM Duke Fan
10-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Yes, this team is more talented--offensively. Defense? Not so sure, esp. in the guard spots. In addition, I don't see a truly outstanding defensive talent like a Battier to take up the slack. How much can this team grow defensively over the year, that is a big question in my mind . . .

Kedsy
10-29-2011, 02:54 PM
In addition, I don't see a truly outstanding defensive talent like a Battier to take up the slack.

Have you seen any Battier-like defensive talents at Duke since Shane graduated in 2001? Why should this year be any different?

Duvall
10-29-2011, 03:02 PM
Others have addressed the experience issue, but I want to stress that the experience level on our current team is not in any way comparable to 2006-07. The 2006-07 Duke team was the least experienced in the Coach K era. That team went into the season with only three players who'd played more than 185 career minutes (DeMarcus Nelson, 1151 minutes; Greg Paulus, 1163 minutes; Josh McRoberts, 883 minutes), and two of the three had only played one season. The rotation included only one upperclassman: four freshmen, three sophomores (one of whom barely played before that season) and one junior.

In contrast, the current roster has five upperclassmen among its top six players. Six of our players have played more than 300 career minutes, and five have played more than 900 minutes (Miles, 1447; Mason, 1429; Andre, 1255; Ryan, 970; Seth, 924 + however many minutes he played at Liberty; Tyler, 337). So while it's true that Miles and Ryan didn't play much their freshman year, I think this season we have very much a veteran team.

1277 (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/players/playerpage/1646615/seth-curry), total of 2201.

NM Duke Fan
10-29-2011, 04:04 PM
Have you seen any Battier-like defensive talents at Duke since Shane graduated in 2001? Why should this year be any different?

Many recent Duke teams didn't need a Battier to make up for a deficit of overall defensive talent and skills, many of the recent teams had an ample supply of really good defensive players. Not so sure about this year's team in that regard, and not seeing a strong defensive stopper emerge so far either. Was hoping silent G was going to be a defensive stopper specialist to help take up some of the slack, but wonder if he will even see any playing time when it counts.

SCMatt33
10-29-2011, 05:06 PM
I'm not sure why the comparison is "inane." Everyone points out that the talent level is different than '07, but I don't see the word talent, or any word like it, in the article. That entire article is about leadership. He also makes no assertion that this season will end up like '07. He simply warns that if leaders don't emerge, no matter the talent level, this season might be tougher than most predict. That is an assertion I wholeheartedly agree with.

Before we all go ragging on the '07 team too much, let's remember that they did a lot of things well. That team had a great non-conference season with the only loss being to Marquette in the CBE. They beat Gonzaga, Indiana, and Georgetown, who went to the Final Four. That team suffered from it's lack of leadership as none of the guys were able to circle the wagons when the team started going downhill.

The points brought up about talent and the differences between now and '07 are certainly valid, but they don't apply to anything Tudor wrote. Notably, this team should be a much better shooting team. That team shot 38% from the outside, which isn't that bad, but only Paulus shot 37% or better (McClure did to, but only took 7 shots). That led to Duke shooting less than 30% of it's shots from outside, an unheard of number for Duke and only 262nd in the country. That won't be a problem this year.

A second thing that was a big issue was depth. Duke only played about 22% of its minutes from the bench, good for 307th in the country. I don't think that will be the case this year.

Where we need the leadership is on D. Despite the struggles, that team finished 5th in defensive efficiency. Duke really need Rivers and Curry to be better than projected as perimeter defenders if they want a shot at a Final Four.

I doubt that Duke's results will be anywhere close to '07, but if new leaders don't step up (especially on D), we won't finish the year in the top 10 either.

jipops
10-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Remember, the 2007 team did make the tournament. I would be much more aghast if this Duke team was being compared to the 2009-2010 UNC team.

DukieTiger
10-29-2011, 11:20 PM
One significant difference I have not seen mentioned between the two teams is size. This year's team has a LOT more size in the post and on the wings, compared to the '07 team. That should be one significant difference between the two.

arnie
10-30-2011, 07:44 AM
One significant difference I have not seen mentioned between the two teams is size. This year's team has a LOT more size in the post and on the wings, compared to the '07 team. That should be one significant difference between the two.

Three 6'10" players returning with signficant experience versus one player with one year experience. And I think equally important, the 06/07 had one player returning that could play the point (Paulus - who we and Tudor know struggled throughout as a defender and penetrator) versus Thornton and Curry and of course Cook/Rivers coming in.

CDu
10-30-2011, 08:05 AM
Three 6'10" players returning with signficant experience versus one player with one year experience. And I think equally important, the 06/07 had one player returning that could play the point (Paulus - who we and Tudor know struggled throughout as a defender and penetrator) versus Thornton and Curry and of course Cook/Rivers coming in.

As has been said, Tudor didn't say it had a ton of similarities to the 2007 team - just some. As others have posted in this thread, that statement is accurate. And he made no statement to suggest the results this year will be similar to the 2007 team. I think you're reading more negative into the article than is really there.

gumbomoop
10-30-2011, 08:19 AM
Where we need the leadership is on D.

I encourage all to check out K's postgame comments. See Quote link from main Bellarmine story.

K thinks, just now, that Tyler Thornton will be a key leader on D.

sagegrouse
10-30-2011, 08:59 AM
I encourage all to check out K's postgame comments. See Quote link from main Bellarmine story.

K thinks, just now, that Tyler Thornton will be a key leader on D.


From the referral above -- sagegrouse




Duke Head Coach Mike Krzyzewski
Opening Statement:
".... Then in the second half I thought we played really well. Our big guys defended out on the perimeter - that's an unusual thing. Last year, our guys could not do that very well, the big guys. I thought our big guys did a good job with that. In the second half, they just went up with the ball instead of trying to make reads inside. [Tyler] Thornton really gave us a big boost. When he's in the ball game, we just play better. He doesn't have to hit a shot - we just play better when Tyler's in the basketball game. Our bigs in the second half were excellent and we didn't turn the ball over in the second half. We played better defense. So we beat a good team. I've watched a few games of theirs from last year and was just really impressed with how they play. They're going to have an outstanding year again. Hopefully they stay healthy. I wish them the best - they're a good group."

devildeac
10-30-2011, 01:41 PM
I am no fan of the Old Curmudgeon either but I thought his piece was fairly straightforward, accurate and pretty honest in previewing our MBB season. I think we have discussed many of our concerns here already and he mentioned many of those. Should be quite interesting to see how this group matures as the season unfolds.