FB: Virginia Tech 14, Duke 10

[awhom111]

It was a tough loss last week, but this season still has a few weeks to go. As usual, I have the link for the TV affiliate list from the ACC website:
http://www.theacc.com/live/2011-acc-football-match-center-virginia-tech-at-duke.html

Considering we were just on the network last week, there are very few differences. It looks like Hagerstown, Maryland is out and Baltimore is in and I spotted a channel difference in the Washington DC area. I would just double-check the list to see what channel to tune into for the game.

[Reilly]

Let's Go Duke .... Aaron Rouse, we will *never* forget ...

[OldPhiKap]

This would be a nice one to win. Go get 'em guys.

[whereinthehellami]

Here is the main preview of the Duke-VT (http://www.techsideline.com/news_archive/showArticle-6191.php) game from Techsideline.

Here is another preview (http://blog.techsideline.com/?p=6212?PHPSESSID=9799eb447c7034bef1b98662c9112423 ) from one of their bloggers, who has a unique style that you either love or hate. I think it's fun.

[CameronBornAndBred]

First and foremost thing to do if we hope to have any chance at all is to not let them score early and often as Wake and FSU did. We are doomed if we have to play catchup again. IF we do let them score early and often, we better keep pace with them and not start to figure out our game plan in the second half once again.

[Reilly]

... We are doomed if we have to play catchup again. ....

To that end, if we win the toss, TAKE THE BALL!!!!!

[Duke of Nashville]

VT fan support always shows up strong. On that note I am sure atleast one side will be full of Duke Blue. This is going to be a battle. Duke still can make a bowl if we win out and I know that we will be gunning for the win. I expect a hard fought battle with Duke prevailing, sending shockwaves through the ACC.

42-35 Duke

[devildeac]

18.5 point 'dogs. This one could get ugly in a hurry if we get behind early.

[Bob Green]

Duke still can make a bowl if we win out...

There are five games left, but we only need to win three to attain bowl eligibility. If we win out, we will be 8-4.

[Dev11]

There are five games left, but we only need to win three to attain bowl eligibility. If we win out, we will be 8-4.

Fine, we'll take 8-4.

[OldPhiKap]

Fine, we'll take 8-4.

I'm not greedy, 7-5 is okay with me.

Let's take that first step tomorrow, though.

[-bdbd]

We're about due for a nice big upset. Whether or not it is tomorrow, Cut will deliver one in the near future. Of that I am quite confident.

Go Devils! Shock the Turkeys!

:eek:

[Bob Green]

We're about due for a nice big upset. Whether or not it is tomorrow, Cut will deliver one in the near future. Of that I am quite confident.

Go Devils! Shock the Turkeys!

:eek:

There is no better day than today for Duke football to Shock the World. We need to knock off several ACC opponents down the stretch so today would be a great day to get started! I believe we need this game to be a shootout in order to have a chance to pull off the upset. It is time to throw caution to the wind and get the offense rolling. I'm hoping for a 2009 NC State type game where points were being scored left and right until the Wolfpack offense wilted under the pressure of having to score every time they had the ball. Our offense needs to explode today and dare Virginia Tech to respond and respond and respond...

[Olympic Fan]

I can't help thinking how close we are ...

As disappointing as the Richmond and Wake games were, change just one play in each game and Duke is 5-2 at this moment. Imagine the excitement that would be surrounding the program if that were the case.

Now, I realize that change a couple of plays in the BC and the FIU games and we would be 1-6. That's a fair response to my observation.

But my point is that this team -- this program -- is right on the cusp of success. It's still a relatively young team and if we could just make the breakthrough this season, we'll be set up beautifully for next year. But Duke needs a breakthrough win ... something to develop the mindset that they should win games like Richmond and Wake. I don't think that's there yet.

I think Va Tech will be tough. But that's the point of a breakthroughy win -- you've got to beat somebody nobody expects you to.

After the Wake loss -- what a heartbreaker! -- I'm not thinking about bowls or anything. I'm thinking of the one big win that will turn this program around. Not saying it happens today, but I think it comes soon.

[SilkyJ]

There is no better day than today for Duke football to Shock the World. We need to knock off several ACC opponents down the stretch so today would be a great day to get started! I believe we need this game to be a shootout in order to have a chance to pull off the upset. It is time to throw caution to the wind and get the offense rolling. I'm hoping for a 2009 NC State type game where points were being scored left and right until the Wolfpack offense wilted under the pressure of having to score every time they had the ball. Our offense needs to explode today and dare Virginia Tech to respond and respond and respond...

Well we need to stretch the field then (can we add that to Throaty's HB?). This 10/10 for 40 yards junk ain't gonna get it done.

I like the phrase Cut used before the BC game, which I attended and enjoyed watching them stretch the field more (though it was still a lot of west coast offense): Unleash Renfree.

[riverside6]

Live stats for the game here:

http://www.scacchoops.com/FB_ViewHDGame.asp?hGame=1512 (http://www.scacchoops.com/FB_ViewHDGame.asp?hGame=1512)

[Gthoma2a]

We have shown ourselves to be a team that can make plays and make life tough for good opponents, but we need to start taking advantage of these opportunities that we create more often to get to the next level. We are playing a pretty good game against the number 12 team in the country and we nearly had it last week.

[ChrisP]

We have shown ourselves to be a team that can make plays and make life tough for good opponents, but we need to start taking advantage of these opportunities that we create more often to get to the next level. We are playing a pretty good game against the number 12 team in the country and we nearly had it last week.

Agreed. What drives me completely nuts and what I think is really killing this team is the number of negative yardage plays. One occurred today on Duke's next-to-last drive. We completely a tough, long pass to Vernon for 39 yards, then had a nice, 8 yard run on first down to set up 2nd and about 2. Then, on second down, we opened up NO hole for our RB and he bounced off the VT defender like a child and ended up flat on his back. Two yard loss. And, just like that, we're in 3rd and 4. Not really sure why Boone came in on 3rd and 4 but he did and almost got sacked. Anyway, my point is that it seems like every time the team makes a positive play and seems to have a little momentum going, we do something stupid like a sideways pass or a run up the middle, or get a procedure penalty, and end up going backwards. Ugh.

Well, here's to hoping for a much better second half! Go Duke!!!

[Bob Green]

I'm encouraged by the 1st half. Now we need to play a strong 2nd half like we did against BC and Wake Forest.

[PumpkinFunk]

There's a lot of positive to take out of the first half, for sure, but there's also a lot that could've gone much, much worse. We gave up some huge pass plays once again. Our offense really struggled (especially with Boone in, for the most part), and we kept taking the ball out of Renfree's hands when he was finally getting somewhere with the passing game. The QB rotation can't be good for Sean's confidence. And the running game is going nowhere, at all. The game could've easily been tied, but this just as easily could have been 28-7 at the half. That scares me a bit. The one really big positive is that we've gone back to a vertical passing game, which opens up so much all over the field. Playcalling is still pretty conservative in the red zone, though.

[ChrisP]

OMG! Low snap ends up putting us in 2nd and 15! This junk HAS to stop!!!!

[ChrisP]

I think our center is a backup, right? Great effort by Boone to pick up that first down but another low snap almost cost us again. So frustrating...

[DukeSean]

wow that was a big hit on Renfree, hope he's ok. was very borderline, could've gone as late hit

[Duvall]

wow that was a big hit on Renfree, hope he's ok. was very borderline, could've gone as late hit

From Virginia Tech, you say? What a surprise.

[-bdbd]

Yeah, VPI always seems to try to play 'intimidation football' against Duke. I remember us playing up there about 3 years ago and their D gets three )3!) late hit calls - and it easily coulds been 2 more - in just the first half alone. I hope we've learned to fught back, and take advantage of the penalties Tech gets when they get caught.

Gotta love that Duke is really fighting for this one. We'll see how the rest plays out, but five minutes into the third duke had some shots to score from the VPI 10 yard line. Hope that Renfree is ok after that nasty hit (I think it coulda been a roughing call).

But down only 4 with under 25 minutes to go against a top-15 squad.... These are the kinds of "opportunities" where Duke just needs to (someday soon, maybe today?) take advantage if. Who's going to take charge and make that one special play to put us over the top??? There were similar opportunities vs Wake and Richmond. This would be a HUGE, special upset if we could just get over that hump.

Let's go Devils. Keep taking it to 'em!!! Fight! Fight! Fight!

:eek:

[DukeSean]

Gotta love that Duke is really fighting for this one. We'll see how the rest plays out, but five minutes into the third duke had some shots to score from the VPI 10 yard line. Hope that Renfree is ok after that nasty hit (I think it coulda been a roughing call).


My sentiments exactly, I love the fight. Connor Vernon, especially, always impresses me with his "bounce-back" after some of those nasty hits.

[DukeSean]

DANG what a run by DSCOTT!

and then as I type this, false start. :(

[ChrisP]

Great run by Scott but next play...lose 5 yards on a procedure penalty. Again! Ugh!!! C'mon guys!

[JasonEvans]

DANG what a run by DSCOTT!

and then as I type this, false start. :(

The run was epic and important after the totally blown punt return.

The false start... a reminder of how maddening it can be to be a Duke foot fan ;)

-Jason

[DukeSean]

The false start... a reminder of how maddening it can be to be a Duke foot fan ;)

-Jason

...and a missed FG.

[JasonEvans]

well, if we could hit 30 yard FGs, we'd be leading this thing. Grrrr.

[grossbus]

Dang...again!

[ChrisP]

Missed FG!!! You have GOT to be freakin' kidding me. Not sure, but I might be more upset with the 3rd down call to Helfet. First of all, the guy drops lots of passes and even when he does manage to hold onto the ball, when has he EVER outrun speedy secondary players. That play seemed to me to have a very low percentage chance of getting us the first down.

We just simply are not good enough to keep making mistakes against a good, talented team like VT. It seems like every time we make a great play on one side of the ball, we turn around and screw it up.

[DukeSean]

well, if we could hit 30 yard FGs, we'd be leading this thing. Grrrr.

Why do we do this to ourselves, it's painful to watch.

Being a Rangers fan doesn't help.

[TonyWR]

well, if we could hit 30 yard FGs, we'd be leading this thing. Grrrr.

I agree, that was pathetic. That was probably Dukes last shot at winning this game, sheesh..

[ChrisP]

Can we just run like 1 play - just ONE - with Matt Daniels at QB? Just sayin'....

[loldevilz]

Matt Daniels is a pro

[DukeSean]

considering that shanked punt, that overturned INT call played out pretty well for us...now we gotta take advantage

[ChrisP]

Not sure if that was the right call after the review, but whatever. The bottom line is that we have excellent field position after the shanked punt and we simply have to do something on offense now. Let's go DUKE!!!

[CDu]

Not sure if that was the right call after the review, but whatever. The bottom line is that we have excellent field position after the shanked punt and we simply have to do something on offense now. Let's go DUKE!!!

I'm pretty sure it was the right call. Daniels was still trying to bring it in when he rolled over out of bounds. Thankfully we didn't turn it over on the punt.

Now if our offense could only capitalize for once.

[ChrisP]

Well, so much for taking advantage of good field position. Heck of a punt though - maybe we can get lucky and have VT throw us a pick 6 or put it on the ground and let our defense get the go-ahead score.

[CDu]

Well, so much for taking advantage of good field position. Heck of a punt though - maybe we can get lucky and have VT throw us a pick 6 or put it on the ground and let our defense get the go-ahead score.

Pretty crucial possession here. We need to, at the very least, keep the field position advantage. And not let the Hokies run clock.

It's frustrating to see how well the defense has played and still be trailing.

[grossbus]

Daniels!!!

[grossbus]

This possession! Now!!

[ChrisP]

If I were a Duke defensive player, I'd be pretty upset with the "O" right about now. You really couldn't ask for more from our defense at this point. Still, I'd hate to see us give up a big play like we did to Wake's Givens last week. Of course, if the offense could do anything at all (cough...make a field goal...cough) then it'd take some pressure off the "D". And yes, I realize that technically, FG's come from special teams and not the offense but you know what I mean.

[CDu]

Can't ask for more chances in this second half. We have to capitalize. Man, I wish I wasn't sick and could be at the game!

[ChrisP]

Why, why, why do you run a route that isn't enough yardage for the 1st down!!! Ugh!!!!

[ChrisP]

I'm sorry, but the play calling baffles me. What in the WORLD was that 4th down play???

[DukeSean]

wow what a break...giving us the 1st down and goal

[CDu]

wow what a break...giving us the 1st down and goal

Nope. Dead ball penalty. After the change of possession. VT ball.

[grossbus]

Bad play calling...again. Tech playing for screens and dump passes.

[DukeSean]

Nope. Dead ball penalty. After the change of possession. VT ball.

yea I realized, i'm not watching with any volume cause the lady is sleeping :(

[CDu]

And now we'll see a heavy dose of the run. It's looking pretty over.

[ChrisP]

Man, this sucks - how many opportunities have we blown in this 2nd half? And now VT's moving it - Wilson's running wild and they look to be very close to running out the clock.

[DukeSean]

if we had just hit one of those 2 missed FGs earlier, that 4th and 2 would've been our FG to take the lead, instead we had to go for it. all these opportunities that we aren't capitalizing on

[DukeSean]

we have a small chance...very small

[CDu]

Looks like we'll get one last shot. We'll need to go 80+ yards in under 2 minutes with no timeouts (assuming nothing crazy happens on the punt).

[ChrisP]

Nice sack! Man, you really couldn't ask much more of our defense. I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that our offense can score here but...maybe we'll finally get lucky. :)

[ChrisP]

This is just not Sean Renfree's day. We needed a first down there and went for the big play on 3rd and 2???

[DukeSean]

Nice sack! Man, you really couldn't ask much more of our defense. I haven't seen anything that indicates to me that our offense can score here but...maybe we'll finally get lucky. :)

I wouldn't hold your breath, but hey it's worth hoping for

[DukeSean]

well, at least we beat the spread. :(

should've had this game, we can't seem to put together all aspects of our team for 4 quarters...

defense was really great in the 2nd half, offense was really terrible. kicking game did us in

[grossbus]

Play calling??? Guy catches on the left sideline and you call a formation where that guy is on the right side? He never made it. A lost play.

A wonderful effort by the D. Woeful O.

[PSurprise]

well, at least we beat the spread. :(

should've had this game, we can't seem to put together all aspects of our team for 4 quarters...

defense was really great in the 2nd half, offense was really terrible. kicking game did us in

That's what so frustrating about Duke football. It's ALWAYS this. Renfree might be on one day, and the defense gives up 400 yards. Or, the defense does an outstanding job and the offense is anemic. Same thing with special teams. Someone needs to motivate these guys for the ENTIRE game. It shouldn't be this tough being a Duke football fan.
Argh!
Good game defense! Hopefully they'll show up again next week.

[Devilsfan]

Forget the play calling. How about a player begging to come off the field with the game on the line and then on 4th down the QB throws it to this same guy with your main threats on the field. QB play calling is suspect as well as a players heart wanting out when the games on the line.

[Devilsfan]

I was just told that we beat the spread two weeks in a row. Screw the spread, I want this team to win a close ACC game and so does Cut.

[Devilsfan]

We make two very makable FGs and guess what, we win. Shame because the D and Daniels played one hell of a game!

[arnie]

We make two very makable FGs and guess what, we win. Shame because the D and Daniels played one hell of a game!


I want to agree with you, but making 2 field goals changes the dynamic of the game and VT then tries to score in the 4th quarter. But, it would have been nice to make the short ones.

[cspan37421]

Forget the play calling. How about a player begging to come off the field with the game on the line and then on 4th down the QB throws it to this same guy with your main threats on the field. QB play calling is suspect as well as a players heart wanting out when the games on the line.

I beg to differ.

If a player knows he can't be effective for a down, get him out. At least he's putting the team first. I wouldn't question his heart.

And I'll say playcallling. You're out of timeouts and you're throwing to the middle of the field.

Had Snyderwine not been off today, I'd have gone for the 3 on 4th and 2 deep in VT territory. There were 5 min left and your D has been good enough to get the ball back - at least for another try.

I really dislike the platooning QB thing. How many games has that won us? Or would not doing it make us even worse? Are we making it that much harder for other teams to prepare for us, because we play 2 QBs?

BTW, that last turnover on downs at the end of the game ... VT had hand on back of Duke receiver. Obvious he was being dragged down. Then again ... had he caught it, it probably would have taken the VT guy about 55 seconds to get off of him.

Pretty frustrating.

[Class of '94]

That's what so frustrating about Duke football. It's ALWAYS this. Renfree might be on one day, and the defense gives up 400 yards. Or, the defense does an outstanding job and the offense is anemic. Same thing with special teams. Someone needs to motivate these guys for the ENTIRE game. It shouldn't be this tough being a Duke football fan.
Argh!
Good game defense! Hopefully they'll show up again next week.

Reinfree hasn't been on when it counts throughtout ACC play this season. I know I'm going to upset the Reinfree supportersw and apologists but blaming the coaches and play calling can only go so far. At some point, you have to look at the QB and while Reinfree can put up great numbers at times statistically, it doesn't equate to wins. It's the second game in a row where Reinfree has had the opportunity to lead Duke to a victory at the end and he failed miserably; and Duke could've and should've won both these ames. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Reinfree is the reason why Duke has lost these games. Obviously, if Snyderwine had made his field goals, Duke would've won this game (Snyderwine choking is a topic for another day and figuring out what's happended to his lack of clutch play is a topic and rant for another day); and I'm not saying Boone is necessarily the answer, especially if the coaches don't allow the kid to mix in throws and not just be a runner; but I just wonder if Reinfree can lead Duke to ACC wins, especially in the clutch when Duke has opportunities to win the game at the end. I just don't think he has that "it" factor in terms of being a special QB, especially when you consider that this was pegged a season for most ACC teams to have unproven QBs and Reinfree was considered to be one of the best QBs this year because of his experience and ability. Sorry for the rant and I may be unfairly criticizing Reinfree; but I am just so frustrated!!!! Right now Duke should be at worst 6-2 or 5-3 imo....

[CDu]

This is just not Sean Renfree's day. We needed a first down there and went for the big play on 3rd and 2???

Well, 3rd and 2 when you're in 4-down territory is somewhat like a 2nd and 2 during the middle of the game. So I see no problem going for a big play on 3rd and 2. We needed to gain a lot of yardage, and we had another play to work with.

What's more confusing is that they ran a play to Braxton on the far left side of the field, then called a formation that required him to run the width of the field to the far right before the snap. In a hurry up formation, that's just ridiculous. And the result was a throwaway by Renfree.

[cspan37421]

This is just not Sean Renfree's day. We needed a first down there and went for the big play on 3rd and 2???

Yeah, that drove me nuts. So many wasted downs. We don't seem to value our plays as much as we should.

It's almost as if the strategy is to NOT do the smart thing, because that's just what the defense expects us to do. So we do the dumb thing, thinking we'll catch them off guard.

[cspan37421]

Well, 3rd and 2 when you're in 4-down territory is somewhat like a 2nd and 2 during the middle of the game. So I see no problem going for a big play on 3rd and 2. We needed to gain a lot of yardage, and we had another play to work with.

What's more confusing is that they ran a play to Braxton on the far left side of the field, then called a formation that required him to run the width of the field to the far right before the snap. In a hurry up formation, that's just ridiculous. And the result was a throwaway by Renfree.

I fully agree with your second point, but disagree on the first. I don't think you can equate 3rd and 2 at the end of a game with 2nd and 2 at the middle. If the former fails, you're in a "this is ballgame" situation. Not so for the latter.

Yes, you need a lot of yards, but you had time to get a first down, stop the clock by moving the chains. It's not like we had 3rd and 2 from the 20 yard line with 15 seconds to go. For that, yeah, forget the first down, take your shots. But not with over a minute to go and you're 60+ yards away.

[jv001]

It seems we find a way to lose most weeks. Some weeks the defense can't stop the other teams offense and then some weeks the defense plays "lights out" and we can't score. I really thought our offense this year would be good enough to win some games when the defense didn't show up, but our offense seems stagnant. Bad play calling, bad decisions and bad execution. The offensive woes seems to lie with the QB and the offensive co-ordinator. We just don't know how to win. Go Duke!

[PSurprise]

And, needless to say, it's very difficult to win with 4 TOs, (of course one was on 4th down). No room for any errors with Duke football.

[cspan37421]

And, needless to say, it's very difficult to win with 4 TOs, (of course one was on 4th down). No room for any errors with Duke football.

Actually, I think we turned it over on downs twice, plus 3 interceptions and 1 fumble lost. So that's 6 TOs.

[duke09hms]

Watched with some med school friends from Duke, who I convinced to be duke football fans this year and stayed true even after the Richmond disaster. Some choice comments:

"It's 3rd-and-2, why is the qb throwing long? Terrible decision." "That's why he plays for Duke."
"Why would they call a 4th down play with only 1 receiving option (Thompson fell down)." "That's Duke football."
"Wtf, how does our kicker miss from 38 and 29? This is 2 games he's blown for us." "That's why he kicks for Duke."
"Why the hell would our TE catch just short of the 1st down? Does he have no field awareness?" "That's why he plays for Duke."

Humor is one of the best ways to deal with tragedy, and so this became a running joke.

Needless to say, I don't think they'll be following duke football anymore. The Duke football program is undeniably better but our quarterback/offensive coordinator don't seem to have the chemistry or intangibles to make winning plays that it seemed Thad Lewis had back when we went 5-7. Playcalling is suspect and inconsistent. The offense simply looks poorly coached out there.

- Cooper Helfet has a penchant for either dropping passes or making his break just short of the 1st down.
- That 29 yard miss by Snyderwine was colossal. And that's me trying to excuse the 38-yd miss.
- Gotta feel for the defense here, especially Matt Daniels. What a superb effort they put out, holding VT to 14 pts, wow.
- How did Desmond Scott get caught on that long run? I thought Cut was trying to recruit speed, it looked like he was run down by a linebacker and a safety.

Ugh so many chances to win the game. Thank you defense for your amazing performance. Offense, yall have issues.

[El_Diablo]

Renfree led the team in sacks today, sacking himself twice.

[CDu]

Actually, I think we turned it over on downs twice, plus 3 interceptions and 1 fumble lost. So that's 6 TOs.

I don't think the turnovers on downs actually count as turnovers, as they work the same as a (really short) punt. One of those was in the red zone, so I guess it could have turned into a FG instead (that's assuming a lot with this team). We had 4 turnovers in the classic sense, although one of those was a 4th down turnover. So it was really 3 true turnovers.

[SilkyJ]

Well, 3rd and 2 when you're in 4-down territory is somewhat like a 2nd and 2 during the middle of the game. So I see no problem going for a big play on 3rd and 2. We needed to gain a lot of yardage, and we had another play to work with.



I fully agree with your second point, but disagree on the first. I don't think you can equate 3rd and 2 at the end of a game with 2nd and 2 at the middle. If the former fails, you're in a "this is ballgame" situation. Not so for the latter.


CDu, I'm normally in the same ballpark as you, but you're off here. If you miss on the 3rd and 2 late, you have one play left that is for all the marbles. You don't convert on the ensuing 4th and 2, and the game is over.

2nd and 2 or 3rd and 2 in the middle of the game? No matter what happens you've got tons of time to make up any deficit. There is no comparison.

Bad decision by Renfree there. Another bad decision to make Braxton switch sides after ~8 yard gain 2 plays before. I'm assuming that was Renfree's call given it was a no huddle situation.

Of course, in the middle of the game Roper had plenty of poor calls himself. Snyderwine's foot was making all kinds of bad decisions. Tough to be close and not be able to close the door b/c of "little" things like that. Sigh.

Still think Cut is the best Coach we've had in 15-20 years tho. Gonna be tough to convince me otherwise. I think his biggest mistake may be not calling the plays.

Next Play.

[-bdbd]

Watched with some med school friends from Duke, who I convinced to be duke football fans this year and stayed true even after the Richmond disaster. Some choice comments:

"It's 3rd-and-2, why is the qb throwing long? Terrible decision." "That's why he plays for Duke."
"Why would they call a 4th down play with only 1 receiving option (Thompson fell down)." "That's Duke football."
"Wtf, how does our kicker miss from 38 and 29? This is 2 games he's blown for us." "That's why he kicks for Duke."
"Why the hell would our TE catch just short of the 1st down? Does he have no field awareness?" "That's why he plays for Duke."

Humor is one of the best ways to deal with tragedy, and so this became a running joke.

Needless to say, I don't think they'll be following duke football anymore. The Duke football program is undeniably better but our quarterback/offensive coordinator don't seem to have the chemistry or intangibles to make winning plays that it seemed Thad Lewis had back when we went 5-7. Playcalling is suspect and inconsistent. The offense simply looks poorly coached out there.

- Cooper Helfet has a penchant for either dropping passes or making his break just short of the 1st down.
- That 29 yard miss by Snyderwine was colossal. And that's me trying to excuse the 38-yd miss.
- Gotta feel for the defense here, especially Matt Daniels. What a superb effort they put out, holding VT to 14 pts, wow.
- How did Desmond Scott get caught on that long run? I thought Cut was trying to recruit speed, it looked like he was run down by a linebacker and a safety.

Ugh so many chances to win the game. Thank you defense for your amazing performance. Offense, yall have issues.

Arrrrgh! Very frustrating loss. As I watched Cut and players trot off the field it sure looked to me that nobody was being satisfied with moral victories anymore... Good sign. Keep creating opportunities like this and we WILL be completing some good upsets in the next few years.

I'm overall pleased with the team's performance today, especially the Defense. What effort, what fight! It was clearly not Renfree's or Helfet's day today. Really inconsistent QB play - a few really bad decisions and his throwing touch seemed off a bunch of times. We had several opportunities for someone, anyone (!), to make the "winning play." But it didn't happen. Any chance Boone replaces Renfree next week? FWIW, I hate the frequent switching of QB's based on situations. It harms the momentum and rhytm of both guys.

Sigh.....

Keep plugging guys - one these will break our way, I have zero doubt about it.


:(

[CDu]

CDu, I'm normally in the same ballpark as you, but you're off here. If you miss on the 3rd and 2 late, you have one play left that is for all the marbles. You don't convert on the ensuing 4th and 2, and the game is over.

I said somewhat like it - not exactly like it. Obviously there's some difference there. But you still have another play to work with. That was my point. The team felt they could get a big gainer on 3rd down, and they still had another play to try to make the 1st down.

Does it put more pressure on that 4th down play? Sure. But there's pressure on every play in a 2-minute drive, and that includes any 3rd or 4th down situation. If we hit a big gainer, we get a real opportunity to get that touchdown. We weren't going to dink and dunk down the field for a TD with ~1:10 to go and ~70 yards to cover. So I don't see a huge problem with going for a big play.

[grossbus]

i hate being patronized by the opposing coaches and players after they beat us. :(

[SilkyJ]

I said somewhat like it - not exactly like it. Obviously there's some difference there. But you still have another play to work with. That was my point. The team felt they could get a big gainer on 3rd down, and they still had another play to try to make the 1st down.

Does it put more pressure on that 4th down play? Sure. But there's pressure on every play in a 2-minute drive, and that includes any 3rd or 4th down situation. If we hit a big gainer, we get a real opportunity to get that touchdown. We weren't going to dink and dunk down the field for a TD with ~1:10 to go and ~70 yards to cover. So I don't see a huge problem with going for a big play.

I know what you're saying, but I disagree. Strongly. Having "another play to work with" in the middle of the game means at worst you punt and get the ball back several more times. Several more possessions, dozens more plays.

Having another play to work with late in the game means if you screw up, the game is now on the line with one single play. I don't think those situations compare at all. Taking a low % shot that puts you in a 4th down that could end the game is not remotely similar to taking a low % shot that means you'll still get the ball back multiple times. You take high % percentage plays in that situation and try to keep the drive moving.

[CDu]

I know what you're saying, but I disagree. Strongly. Having "another play to work with" in the middle of the game means at worst you punt and get the ball back several more times. Having another play to work with in that situation means at worst you have one play that makes or breaks the game. Screw up and the game is over. You really think those two situations compare? I don't.

Obviously the end of game situation is a much higher-pressure situation. My point was simply that we had another play to work with. In the 3rd and 1 scenario earlier in the game, the drive ends if you come up short. Same is true of the 4th and 1 situation at the end of the game. The difference is obviously that the game ends in the latter scenario. But in terms of playcalling, you shouldn't be scared to be in a "need 1 yard to continue the game" situation.

In my opinion you're just delaying the inevitable by running short plays on 3rd and 1 in that situation. We had about 1 minute left and needed 60 yards with no timeouts. Realistically, we were going to have to go for a big gainer eventually. Might as well have been there.

[SilkyJ]

Obviously the end of game situation is a much higher-pressure situation. My point was simply that we had another play to work with. In the 3rd and 1 scenario earlier in the game, the drive ends if you come up short. Same is true of the 4th and 1 situation at the end of the game. The difference is obviously that the game ends in the latter scenario. But in terms of playcalling, you shouldn't be scared to be in a "need 1 yard to continue the game" situation.

In my opinion you're just delaying the inevitable by running short plays on 3rd and 1 in that situation. We had about 1 minute left and needed 60 yards with no timeouts. Realistically, we were going to have to go for a big gainer eventually. Might as well have been there.

Ok, let's rephrase. Wouldn't it be better to try and get the 1st down. STOP THE CLOCK. Then go for the big gainer on 1st or 2nd down? If you screw up you've got 2-3 plays left, not a single play to decide the game? Surely you can't disagree with that.

[CDu]

Ok, let's rephrase. Wouldn't it be better to try and get the 1st down. STOP THE CLOCK. Then go for the big gainer on 1st or 2nd down? If you screw up you've got 2-3 plays left, not a single play to decide the game? Surely you can't disagree with that.

Sure, it might have been better to do that. Just like it might be better to get the short-yardage play on 2nd and short earlier in the game. I just don't think it was mindnumbingly dumb to go for a big gain there.

I think there were more substantial errors in playcalling than that one.

[DukeSean]

From the AP recap, some interesting "taste of your own medicine" from Wilson:


Wilson, the ACC's leading rusher, had his sixth straight 100-yard game and has hit triple digits eight times this season for Virginia Tech. He accused the Blue Devils of "doing dirty stuff" at the bottoms of piles -- specifically, "pinching, punching, reaching through the face mask" and grabbing at his groin," he said.

Yea well maybe you should tell your D guys to stop the late hits, the unnecessary roughness, and you won't get pinched, punched, reached through the face mask when you're at the bottom of a pile. We only learned from experience

[SilkyJ]

Sure, it might have been better to do that. Just like it might be better to get the short-yardage play on 2nd and short earlier in the game.

One of those plays cost us the game and the other one didn't.


I just don't think it was mindnumbingly dumb to go for a big gain there.

I appreciate your choice of words. It was indeed mindnumdingly dumb for a QB who had completed 50% of his passes and thrown 2 picks to go for a very low % play and put the game on the line when he could have gone for a high % play and kept the drive alive.



I think there were more substantial errors in playcalling than that one.

That's not what we're debating, but I can understand why you're trying to deflect. We're debating whether or not taking a low % play that puts you in a game- breaking situation is similar to a low % play that doesn't put the game on the line. I think that sentence says it all.

I'll let you have last words, I'm done with this one. I can't believe you're trying to argue this.

[CDu]

One of those plays cost us the game and the other one didn't.

You're under the mistaken impression that either example (3rd down late or 2nd down early) cost us the game.

1. it didn't end the drive
2. there was no guarantee we'd have scored if we'd completed a 3rd and short there
3. there was no guarantee we'd have gotten the short yardage play either (see INT on 4th down)

It wasn't the high-percentage play. But we needed a game-changing play at that point to win. We weren't succeeding with short-yardage plays throughout the game anyway. We had, however, connected on a few long pass plays during the game.

[SilkyJ]

You're under the mistaken impression that either example (3rd down late or 2nd down early) cost us the game.


Oh I can't resist. You're wrong again tho. One COULD cost us the game and the other COULDN'T. That's my point.

[CDu]

Oh I can't resist. You're wrong again tho. One COULD cost us the game and the other COULDN'T. That's my point.

No, I was not wrong. What you said in this post is different than the post to which I responded. You said one play cost us the game, not that one play could have cost us the game. Very different statements.

And even in your revised statement, that 3rd down play could only have cost us the game if it resulted in a turnover. In any other situation, we live to play another play. And a turnover could have just as well happened on an attempt at a short-yardage play (you know, kind of like the INT on the subsequent short-yardage play).

Now I'm off to enjoy the basketball game and forget about the loss. Happy to discuss further in 2 hours or so.

[cspan37421]

I said somewhat like it - not exactly like it. Obviously there's some difference there. But you still have another play to work with. That was my point. The team felt they could get a big gainer on 3rd down, and they still had another play to try to make the 1st down.

Does it put more pressure on that 4th down play? Sure. But there's pressure on every play in a 2-minute drive, and that includes any 3rd or 4th down situation. If we hit a big gainer, we get a real opportunity to get that touchdown. We weren't going to dink and dunk down the field for a TD with ~1:10 to go and ~70 yards to cover. So I don't see a huge problem with going for a big play.

While I get your reasoning, I would point out that, in general, the longer the pass play, the lower the likelihood of completion. We needed but two yards to get a first down, stop the clock to move the chains, etc. Why go for such a low percentage play, esp. in that situation? It's not like we had a mismatch to exploit, AFAIK.

BTW, SilkyJ mentioned that Cut's worst decision might be to not be calling the offensive plays. I think he's on to something there.

edit: I missed all the back and forth above ... seems like my points had already been made. I do beg to differ with CDu as well, agree with SilkyJ (more than once!) I'll just leave it at that. I think it was a terrible call. If we had a speedster mismatched at WR, I could almost see it - but it's still a low % play, very likely to leave you with 4th and 2. You CAN cover 60 yards in a minute at 12-15 yards at a time. VT did it to us a lot today - our D just stiffened or they made a mistake at the end.

[killerleft]

This is a game that was ours for the taking, but we sorta left it there. And yet...

We played on even terms with a very good football team. We made more good hits today than I've seen Duke make in a long time. Our guys played extremely hard and showed that we aren't going to be bullied by anybody. I don't want to see us doing illegal things, but the quote by the VT guy saying we were "playing dirty" during the pile-ups was something I take as an overall positive remark - a little attitude goes a long way. Our defensive backs, much maligned for years, did a fine job all day. If our line could have produced more pressure it could have been a banner day.

Play calling? I've heard a lot of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing by several posters here, but I thought we actually were very well coached today. Everybody's got the answer after the play, but the coaches seemed to try about everything they could to get the offense going. Sometimes that means running some plays that are counter-intuitive, and of course they seem silly when they don't work. Renfree simply didn't have lots of time to unload the ball most plays.

Another very disappointing loss, but that's what happens when your team is showing improvement and hasn't quite learned how to win the big games yet. I prefer these games so much versus the ones B.C. (before Cut). I think we're getting there, just sad today wasn't the day we served notice.

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did!:rolleyes: Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

This is a game that was ours for the taking, but we sorta left it there. And yet...

We played on even terms with a very good football team. We made more good hits today than I've seen Duke make in a long time. Our guys played extremely hard and showed that we aren't going to be bullied by anybody. I don't want to see us doing illegal things, but the quote by the VT guy saying we were "playing dirty" during the pile-ups was something I take as an overall positive remark - a little attitude goes a long way. Our defensive backs, much maligned for years, did a fine job all day. If our line could have produced more pressure it could have been a banner day.

Play calling? I've heard a lot of I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ing by several posters here, but I thought we actually were very well coached today. Everybody's got the answer after the play, but the coaches seemed to try about everything they could to get the offense going. Sometimes that means running some plays that are counter-intuitive, and of course they seem silly when they don't work. Renfree simply didn't have lots of time to unload the ball most plays.

Another very disappointing loss, but that's what happens when your team is showing improvement and hasn't quite learned how to win the big games yet. I prefer these games so much versus the ones B.C. (before Cut). I think we're getting there, just sad today wasn't the day we served notice.

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did!:rolleyes: Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.
What a game! It was as exciting as anyone could want. It was heartbreaking to lose, but there were some great highlights. There were some spectacular plays by our guys... Matt Daniels was credited for two interceptions and had a third taken away after the officials ruled on who had control and when. Conner Vernon is now #2 in all time receiving yards. And did I mention that our defense held VA Tech scoreless in the second half? Clemson is the only opponent to hold the turkeys to fewer points in a game.

[DownEastDevil]

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did!:rolleyes: Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.

My exact thoughts! What a shame!

[sagegrouse]

Duke's defense stifled a highly ranked Virginia Tech team.

For the second week in a row we seemed to be much the stronger team after halftime.

If I don't get ahold of myself, I might conclude that this Duke team will finish the season strong and outmuscle the teams we face in November. Nah! No woofing here until we put some wins on the board.

sagegrouse

[SilkyJ]

No, I was not wrong. What you said in this post is different than the post to which I responded. You said one play cost us the game, not that one play could have cost us the game. Very different statements.

And even in your revised statement, that 3rd down play could only have cost us the game if it resulted in a turnover. In any other situation, we live to play another play. And a turnover could have just as well happened on an attempt at a short-yardage play (you know, kind of like the INT on the subsequent short-yardage play).

Now I'm off to enjoy the basketball game and forget about the loss. Happy to discuss further in 2 hours or so.

I think you're splitting hairs and grasping at straws, but clearly we don't see eye to eye. I guess we need to exchange glasses or something b/c I literally can't even fathom having you're viewpoint (that going deep on a 2nd & 2 in the middle of the game is comparable to throwing the same pass on a 3rd & 2 that brings up potentially the last play of the game).

[graybead]

I'm upset that we lost today. I'm upset that Synderwine missed two very makeable FG's. . .again and we may have won with those. But I'm even more upset with our fans and our cheerleaders. When one section on the Duke side can cheer "Let's Go!" louder than any Duke cheers by the whole Duke side while the other side of the stadium responds "Hokies!", it's just embarrassing. And they were being led by their cheerleaders. I didn't see our cheerleaders doing anything.

We have the family 4-pack season tickets and sit on the side that is usually full of opposing fans. I felt alone today in my own stadium. The fans were overpowering us. If Duke fans can't get excited about being within a touchdown of beating the #12 team in the country for the entire 4th quarter, then maybe they need to watch the game at home. Reminded me of the "wine & cheese" crowd up the road. I was cheering loud enough for all the Hokie fans around me to take notice. Some even applauded my efforts. But they clearly were much more supportive of their team than our fans were.

Duke football is improving and as they still have more work to do, the fans, students and cheerleaders have some work to do as well.

[Scorp4me]

i hate being patronized by the opposing coaches and players after they beat us. :(

I certainly agree with the sentiment, but I don't think he was patronizing us today. Tech was lucky to get out of that stadium with a win and he knew it.

[CDu]

I think you're splitting hairs and grasping at straws, but clearly we don't see eye to eye. I guess we need to exchange glasses or something b/c I literally can't even fathom having you're viewpoint (that going deep on a 2nd & 2 in the middle of the game is comparable to throwing the same pass on a 3rd & 2 that brings up potentially the last play of the game).

And I think you're focusing too much attention on an off-hand comment comparing between mid-game and late-game.

I don't think the decision on that particular was nearly as bad as you do. You think it's awful. That play did not cost us the game. It wasn't even the worst play call of the game. Or of that drive. I'm sorry that it's gotten as much discussion as it has in this thread.

Let's move on.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I have just gotten home from the basketball game and have read none of this thread. I will endeavor to do that later, probably tomorrow morning. For now, and I will expand on this thought later, all I will say is that Curt Roper must be removed from his post as Offensive Coordinator or at least should not be the person calling the plays. Not saying he has to be fired - Cutcliffe isn't going to do that. He can be reassigned, or demoted, or made towel boy for all I care, but until he isn't calling our plays, excellent efforts like today's will result in close, frustrating losses and not thrilling victories. We should be 6 - 3 today and not 3 - 6. And it's all Curt Roper's fault.

[Son of Jarhead]

I am just as frustrated as anybody with the end results, but I was very proud of the effort & enthusiasm from the Blue Devils today. I was especially impressed with our defense. Daniels was everywhere, as usual, but he got help today. And what about those two hits Bias delivered! Wow!! The VT fans around us were even applauding that one in the flat near the Duke sideline. As an aside, the VT fans around Jarhead & I were all quite nice... refreshing compared to some jerks we've had to endure in the past. Keep improving, Devils... the wins will come.

On Snyderwine's missed FG's, keep in mind that it was a somewhat windy day(up to 15 mph was forecast). On that one that hit the right upright, the wind was blowing towards him & to the right. Now, I'm sure he knows to adjust for the wind, but that can't possibly be easy to do. He would probably be the first to say he can do better, but with the wind in mind, we can cut him a little slack. I wish we would have been able to stick some in the endzone so we didn't have to try field goals.

On Renfree, I seem to recall that he has been nursing hip & back injuries. Perhaps that is affecting his accuracy. He has been high with a lot of throws, as well as simply off target. He seems to rush some throws when he feels pressure, which is understandable I suppose with the hits he has taken. At other times, he looks great... take a deep breath, Sean, & just play, you can do this! I do wish they would stop with the QB switching so much. I can understand it in goal-line situations where the tight space makes throwing difficult, or in something like 3rd-&-1, but with as much as we've used it, our opponents have studied it enough to make it ineffective. Switching to Boone after Sean had just made two big pass completions to get us somewhere around their 30 completely messed up our rhythm. If we're going to use Boone, I hope they will open up the playbook a little more for him so defenses can't key in on him running.

Anyway, very proud of you, guys... keep the effort high, keep working, and let's go win some games! Go Duke!

[killerleft]

I'm upset that we lost today. I'm upset that Synderwine missed two very makeable FG's. . .again and we may have won with those. But I'm even more upset with our fans and our cheerleaders. When one section on the Duke side can cheer "Let's Go!" louder than any Duke cheers by the whole Duke side while the other side of the stadium responds "Hokies!", it's just embarrassing. And they were being led by their cheerleaders. I didn't see our cheerleaders doing anything.

We have the family 4-pack season tickets and sit on the side that is usually full of opposing fans. I felt alone today in my own stadium. The fans were overpowering us. If Duke fans can't get excited about being within a touchdown of beating the #12 team in the country for the entire 4th quarter, then maybe they need to watch the game at home. Reminded me of the "wine & cheese" crowd up the road. I was cheering loud enough for all the Hokie fans around me to take notice. Some even applauded my efforts. But they clearly were much more supportive of their team than our fans were.

Duke football is improving and as they still have more work to do, the fans, students and cheerleaders have some work to do as well.

Amen to that! I sometimes wonder why some folks come to the game. Duke played very well against a good opponent, and way too many of our fans were just sitting there like a bad infomercial was happening in front of them. I don't understand it.

I had a ball cheering on the team, and actually got an approving nod from several fans for running off three VT fans. They were expecting an easy game so they could taunt Duke fans. When VT was whistled for the obvious out-of-bounds hit at the VT bench, the VT lady loudly asked if we were at a Duke basketball game (when Duke presumably gets all the calls, don't you know). It is amazing what a few honest verbal missiles and some old-fashioned loud cheering can accomplish. Within five minutes those Hokies were headed for the visitors' side of the field, and I appreciated the pair of gloves they left for my wife in their haste to escape A LOUD DUKE FAN. My obvious point is this: If you show up acting like a masochist looking for somebody to beat you down, there are those who will oblige. If you stand up and fight you can change things. Plus, it just feels better to cheer and use up some energy on a cool day!

How great it would be if we could turn Wallace Wade into a home field advantage. Such things are impossible to quantify, but it wouldn't surprise me if the vocal VT crowd was a major factor in their narrow win over a tough Duke team. And that's a shame. We had more fans overall, I think. But the noise-o-meter victory went to the VT side.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Let's not forget the student section. It was really heartwarming to see those guys show up and support the team like they did!:rolleyes: Why not invite the general admission folks over there after the 1st quarter? What a waste of seats.

The student section is pathetic. Embarrassing. Ridiculous. Shameful. Hold on while I get my thesaurus...

So, an idea... Maybe we should paint the bleachers Pantone 287 to help hide the emptiness. Or better yet, paint faux fans in the seats. It's got to be disheartening for the players.

[watzone]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/dont-give-up-on-these-blue-devils/ Don't give up on thes Blue Devils just yet. As a long time fan, I know frustration and I will admit it is hard being a DFB fan, but progress is being made, just not in thee win column. Let's tryy and have a great turnout in the final home game against Georgia Tech.

[DownEastDevil]

How great it would be if we could turn Wallace Wade into a home field advantage. Such things are impossible to quantify, but it wouldn't surprise me if the vocal VT crowd was a major factor in their narrow win over a tough Duke team. And that's a shame. We had more fans overall, I think. But the noise-o-meter victory went to the VT side.

I heard a group of VT fans behind me talking about the crowd and they were joking about how Duke had to invite recruits to the away games. It really ticked me off but how could I argue the point.

[Devilsfan]

I totally agree. This team is getting better and better. As for the pathetic student support, maybe there should be a mandatory class in this game as most of the student body seems to have grown up with Futball or nerdy video games. The part of the student body that understands the game is probably playing another sport. Maybe the money spent on the practice facility should have gone to a Dome Stadium. They seem to attend indoor sports where they wont get cold or wet. Hey student body, support your team! You supported a drunk fest tail gate so why not be like all other major colleges and go to football games.

[Devilsfan]

ESPN U just gave props to Coach Cut and the team! Seems like everyone that really knows the game truly appreciates our progress. They did do some "wide right" jokes, however.

[uh_no]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/dont-give-up-on-these-blue-devils/ Don't give up on thes Blue Devils just yet. As a long time fan, I know frustration and I will admit it is hard being a DFB fan, but progress is being made, just not in thee win column. Let's tryy and have a great turnout in the final home game against Georgia Tech.

This game FAR more than any this year has indicated that progress has been made. I have been 100% confident that improvements had been made over the roof era, but until yesterday, I was mildly skeptical that our program was in a better state now than it was the first year cut was here.

After the blowout from FSU people said that we aren't good becuase we can't even keep it respectable against good teams in the ACC....well....if that wasn't a respectable performance, than I don't know what was. If every game duke played at home was a game like that, I'd buy season tickets right now. The problem is, there wasn't the expectation that this game would be remotely reasonable going in (I was dreading going to the game actually, fully expecting to be down by 20+ at halftime)

In terms of coaching: I thought they did a better job. I see lots of crap here for taking a shot on 3rd down on the last drive: its 4 down territory, VT was expecting something short....it was a shot to get what we needed in 1 play....seeing as our 3rd down conversion was like <30%, I can't blame the coaches for taking what might have been our best opportunity. The play calls were more agressive, we looked downfield....execution was lacking at times, but the coaches didn't lose it for us this week.

In summary: phenomenal job by the defense, better job by the coaches, some execution problems....apparently injuries might have caused snyderwine to get a case of the shanks....i'm not depressed....thanks for a good game duke footbalL!

[Olympic Fan]

I posted before the game about how close this team was ... the loss to Virginia Tech just proved it. Duke is so close to success that it is heartbreaking. As I said earlier, the most important thing this team has to accomplish is that it needs to learn to win -- to acquire the poise and confidence that Coach K's basketball team has in close games. As it is now, we get to the end of close games and we hope to win, not expect to win.

Just a few observations:
-- Love the growth of the young defensive line. They pretty much won the battle up front (especially in the second half). That was against a VPI offensive line with four fifth-year senior starters who outweighed them by an average of 30 pounds a man. For Duke, Charlie Hatcher was the only guy who played on the defensive line who wasn't a freshman or a sophomore (okay, Curtis Hazelton played a couple of snaps). As these guys get older (and bigger and stronger), Duke is going to be just fine on the DL (although I'd love to have a dominant pass rusher emerge -- maybe Anunike next year?).

-- Loved seeing David Helton move in and play the majority of snaps at LB alongside Kelby Brown. He had two sacks last week. He was solid against VPI. These two guys are going to give us a great pair for the next two years.

-- I don't want to blame Will Snyderwine for the loss -- there was a lot more to it than his missed FGs. But I can't help thinking that if we had the 2010 Will Snyderwine this year, we'd be 5-3 and not 3-5. We would have won the Richmond game and the VPI game (I know they also missed a chip shot FG, so the score should have been 17-16 VPI down the stretch, but if that would have been the case, we could have kicked a FG on that last possession deep in their territory and not gambled on fourth down -- we should have won 19-17).

-- Biggest problem with his team is the inability to convert red zone opprtunities into touchdowns. It cost us against Wake, it cost us against Richmond and it cost us against VPI. I know they've tried everything -- the Boone package, Renfree running, Renfee throwing -- I'd like to see a little more Renfree handing off or maybe try an option package with Corey Gattis (who was an option QB in high school). I don't know the answer. But neither does Kurt Roper. I agree with the poster who would like to see him relieved of the play-calling responsibilities. Whatever he's doing is not working.

-- Finally, mad props to Matt Daniels, who played one of the greatest games any Duke defensive back has ever played. His two interceptions both stopped VPI scoring opportunities early and prevented them from jumping on top and taking us out of the game. He tied Kelby Brown for the team-high 13 tackles (and that included some memorable hits). He broke up another TD pass in the end zone right before they missed their short FG. He had a third interception overturned on review, but even that worked in our favor (instead of getting it at the 19 where he intercepted, they had to punt and after a shank, we got it at the 45 -- Frank Beamer won his appeal and lost 26 yards in the process!). And late in the game, he helped set up our last chance by breaking up a third-down pass (the ball was there, but Daniels seperated the receiver with a great hit). The guy is the best safety in the ACC (he's third in the league in tackles -- the top safety by far; and second in the league is passes broken up, again the top safety). Unfortunately, becauise he's playing on a mediocre team, he's not going to get the awards he deserves.

I've talked a lot about how solid we are going to be next year. We'll still have some good safeties next season, we won't be hurting there. But we won't have anybody as good as Daniels. He is a GREAT player.

[Devilsfan]

Daniels is the one player that is good enough to start for anyone in the country.

[Indoor66]

I watched the game until the local channel cut away to the Florida game. It seems to me that it takes a lot of years of recruiting to have quality depth. We are very good until he have to play the reserves. Then things fall back a little. I can see this getting better over the past several years and, IMO, the depth will continue to improve. It takes that quality to compete with the big boys. Quality players at all positions and several deep.

[jimsumner]

I think Olympic fan summed it up pretty well.

I think we're in danger of mistaking the trees for the forest.

The trees is that Duke lost another heartbreaker, a disappointing loss to be sure. I keep thinking of how close Duke is to having six wins.

But the broader picture is that Duke went toe-to-toe with an established heavyweight and lost by close decision not by knock out. This team has been savaged by injuries to crucial players--Anunike, Moore, Butler, Snead, Scott, Snyderwine, Braxton, Varner so many more. And it's an exceptionally young team. I'm not trying to disrespect guys like Jay Hollingsworth or Danny Parker, but Duke basically has six really important seniors-Varner, Helfet, Hill, Snyderwine, Hatcher and Daniels. Everyone else of consequence should return next year. Duke is redshirting all but five of its true freshmen this season--the exceptions are Crowder, Holiday, Helton, Woodruff and Grier. The talent upgrade continues. Duke continues to get faster and deeper. Another year in the weight room can only help an exceptionally young OL and DL.

Be honest. How many of you expected VT to just toast Duke yesterday? My guess is, a lot.

I'm seeing lots and lots of good things. The patient may have died yesterday but the operation looked pretty good to me. Duke's getting there.

My two cents.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I think Olympic fan summed it up pretty well.

I think we're in danger of mistaking the trees for the forest.

The trees is that Duke lost another heartbreaker, a disappointing loss to be sure. I keep thinking of how close Duke is to having six wins.

But the broader picture is that Duke went toe-to-toe with an established heavyweight and lost by close decision not by knock out. This team has been savaged by injuries to crucial players--Anunike, Moore, Butler, Snead, Scott, Snyderwine, Braxton, Varner so many more. And it's an exceptionally young team. I'm not trying to disrespect guys like Jay Hollingsworth or Danny Parker, but Duke basically has six really important seniors-Varner, Helfet, Hill, Snyderwine, Hatcher and Daniels. Everyone else of consequence should return next year. Duke is redshirting all but five of its true freshmen this season--the exceptions are Crowder, Holiday, Helton, Woodruff and Grier. The talent upgrade continues. Duke continues to get faster and deeper. Another year in the weight room can only help an exceptionally young OL and DL.

Be honest. How many of you expected VT to just toast Duke yesterday? My guess is, a lot.

I'm seeing lots and lots of good things. The patient may have died yesterday but the operation looked pretty good to me. Duke's getting there.

My two cents.
Right on, Brother!

For our young defense to hold VA Tech scoreless in the second half is outstanding. Holding their total points to the second lowest of the season is another highlight for the defense. Sure, offense didn't get into a smooth, productive rhythm, but they were competitive and very close to outscoring a formidable opponent.

Overall, I think this was the Duke team's best game of the season. Every game they get better. This momentum and improvement began to build noticeable in the FIU game and has continued. At this point in the season, we expect every team to play better.... and our opponents have been getting better as the season has progressed.... making Duke's progress even more significant.

I was more concerned about playing VA Tech than any previous opponent (except Stanford). What a game our guys played yesterday! It's been a long time since a Duke football team played at that level against a nationally ranked opponent building a string of road wins. It's an encouraging trend as we go into the month of November, a month when the big boys control the show.

[Bob Green]

Duke fans must maintain perspective and stay the course. Rome wasn't built in a day and the Duke football rebuilding process requires more time. Jim's following three sentences are a nice summary of where we are:


The talent upgrade continues. Duke continues to get faster and deeper. Another year in the weight room can only help an exceptionally young OL and DL.

It is all about talent, speed, depth and size in the trenches. The team is much, much better than in years past. Olympic Fan's post illustrates key improvements on defense:



-- Love the growth of the young defensive line. They pretty much won the battle up front (especially in the second half). That was against a VPI offensive line with four fifth-year senior starters who outweighed them by an average of 30 pounds a man. For Duke, Charlie Hatcher was the only guy who played on the defensive line who wasn't a freshman or a sophomore (okay, Curtis Hazelton played a couple of snaps). As these guys get older (and bigger and stronger), Duke is going to be just fine on the DL (although I'd love to have a dominant pass rusher emerge -- maybe Anunike next year?).

-- Loved seeing David Helton move in and play the majority of snaps at LB alongside Kelby Brown. He had two sacks last week. He was solid against VPI. These two guys are going to give us a great pair for the next two years.

I'll add junior safety Jordon Byas' name to the list of key players returning next season. He made two bone rattling tackles yesterday and is a guy who could emerge over the rest of the season as a solid member of a rapidly improving defense.

[TwiceDuke]

It is all about talent, speed, depth and size in the trenches. The team is much, much better than in years past. Olympic Fan's post illustrates key improvements on defense:



I'll add junior safety Jordon Byas' name to the list of key players returning next season. He made two bone rattling tackles yesterday and is a guy who could emerge over the rest of the season as a solid member of a rapidly improving defense.


Building on this list, I'd add Cockrell. Much maligned in the past, he's grown into a great coverage player. Not only is he not blowing huge plays, other teams haven't even really been throwing it in his direction (as far as I can tell).

(Another long post, several comments):

1 - Talent and speed. Throughout the season, I've been disgusted by the comments that we haven't upgraded the recruits (and I said so last week). Yet, I couldn't put my fingers on WHY I felt that way. Now I do. This is a football team with the speed and talent to be in the right place, step for step with the other team's skill players, on almost 100% of plays (especially on defense). The problem, thus far, has been an inability to execute. Think of the Greene/Givens play last week: the CB read the route correctly, was in position to make the play, but then didn't. That's EXECUTION, not talent. There were plays like that in this game, but many, many fewer. In the second half, I'm not sure there were any.

We are way, way away from watching players who are 1000 steps out of position, or who have simply been out-run. Our execution still gets sloppy from time to time. But that's coaching, not recruiting. And, if you ask me, it's also about the age and experience of the players, many of whom (a) were raw talent coming out of high school, and not as polished as the 4- and 5-star players, and (b) are still underclassmen.

2 - We had a fair amount of success when we started with Renfree under center yesterday. In fact, I thought our pass protection was better when Renfree started under center, than in the pistol/gun. Our play-action fake was more effective. And our receivers were more-open. I'd like to see more of that.

3 - Boone was in at weird times, and I admit to being puzzled at some of those decisions. But I also know that using Boone gives defenses one more thing to think about when preparing to play against us. Our playbook is pretty small, and opposing defenses take a lot of our offense away by smothering Vernon and Varner. Although we haven't had great success, every time that Boone has played, I'm not sure that I sell one of our (maybe) two wrinkles in order to simplify the QB rotation.

4 - Renfree. All I'll say is that I think the kid is better than he believes himself to be. We've watched his confidence decline over the past two or three weeks. I don't know if it's the close games, whether it's his own performance, or something else, but he has to file that all away for the offseason and just get back to playing. Kudos to the opposing defenses for putting him inside of a little mental box (i.e. putting pressure on him, giving him very narrow throwing lanes). But Renfree is one of our (potential) all-conference players. I just wish that he knew it, without feeling any pressure to perform.

EXTRA CREDIT - re: student attendance. I was a (club) athlete at Duke for 7 years. In any given year, I would meet 5-10 really athletic, competition-minded guys who tried out for the team; the types of guys I grew up with in high school, watching football. Almost to a man, these new players had NO clue how football worked. When I visited friends at other ACC schools, I was amazed at how the general level of football knowledge skyrocketed (i.e. my nueroscience-majoring, girly-girl girlfriend at UMD knew more about the game than my 6'5", brutish teammate). To be fair, I'm stereotyping. But I can't see how you can ask people ignorant of the game to watch for three hours, even if to support their school. Nor do I know how to fix it, if even those who are athletically inclined are ignorant of the sport. I'd love to see it fixed. I'm just not sure there is anything anyone can do, save for give it time. (Just my two cents).

[jimsumner]

RE: Renfree. Somewhere, there's a great quarterback fighting to get out. He's as smart, as dedicated and as hard-working as you can possibly hope for. Lives in the film room and can dissect a defense as well as anyone his age.

But he can overthink this. We've heard the expression "paralysis by analysis" and Renfree is sometimes prone to that. He had a bad patch in the middle of last season, where he had a lot of turnovers and he took it hard. As a result, I think he's become a bit risk averse. He takes mistakes hard, especially his own.

If he could just relax and let it fire. Channel his inner Ben Bennett.

Easy for me to say. I don't have a boatload of angry 280-pounders bearing down on me. He's so close to being an absolute elite QB. He made some throws yesterday that were stunning, thread-the-needle passes to covered receivers on the move. Just a little bit more.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Right on the money again, Jim..... regarding Renfree's talent, intelligence and confidence; the lack of sophisticated football knowledge among most of the students and many of the fans; Cockrell's talent and improvement and on and on.

Football is so much more complicated than basketball. Renfree and others on this team are on the verge of something really big, such a contrast to the play of the past that when it does happen, the exultation will soar like after a national championship.

Sometimes having great possibilities so near can be scary.

[Devilsfan]

They really teach the game of football at Duke without having the luxury of only taking recruits from the top 150 high school seniors. #5 this year reminds me a lot of an offensive version of #6 last year. I am waiting for him to turn to the stands and shout "look mom no hands" like he's riding his bicycle. But if he improves by next year half as much as #6 did in the last year he will really be a player. I am amazed at the player that opposing coaches exploited all last year is now a terrific defensive back. Our coaching staff are great teachers. If only they trusted the players enough to be a little no a lot more creative on offense. This seems to be a weakness in our team. But I think they have done a wonderful job teaching football to a terrific group of young student athletes.

[OldPhiKap]

I thought the announcers said it exactly right. You have to develop the belief and attitude that you deserve to win a close game like that. There is a reason that great teams pull out close games at the end. We do it in basketball. Unfortunately we are not there yet in football. But we're developing the talent and game plans we need to do it. We just need that big break-through.

I ain't giving up my seat on the bandwagon yet.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I have just gotten home from the basketball game and have read none of this thread. I will endeavor to do that later, probably tomorrow morning. For now, and I will expand on this thought later, all I will say is that Curt Roper must be removed from his post as Offensive Coordinator or at least should not be the person calling the plays. Not saying he has to be fired - Cutcliffe isn't going to do that. He can be reassigned, or demoted, or made towel boy for all I care, but until he isn't calling our plays, excellent efforts like today's will result in close, frustrating losses and not thrilling victories. We should be 6 - 2 today and not 3 - 5. And it's all Curt Roper's fault.Note I've corrected the record we should have.


We make two very makable FGs and guess what, we win. Shame because the D and Daniels played one hell of a game!
OK, I'm back, whether you want to hear this or not. After the first two or three games this season, I said the play calling was "abysmal". It was incredibly conservative and predictable, and it was getting us nowhere. Then we opened it up after Cut said they'd been too conservative, and yes, we've thrown it down-field some, but not much. Yes, we've had some imaginative onsides kicks and yesterday's (unsuccessful) center eligible play. But we lack a mid range passing game, rarely throwing 12 to 18 yards to our (really wonderful) wide receivers on slants, crosses or out patterns, something other teams do to us with regularity, especially on third and long. Our first play yesterday was a quick out pass to the sideline for no gain - a wasted down and so typical of our offense this year. We live in the era of the hitch and go to Eron Riley, but he's long gone, and it hasn't worked once all year. We have run an end around or two, including the one at FIU by Jamison Crowder that clinched the win, but I don't think we've tried a reverse, or double reverse this year. Why not, with the speed we've got with Crowder and other frosh wideouts? The use of the Boone package, formerly the Connette package, is so inappropriate and predictable even Dick Brodhead knows what's coming when Boone goes in. Opposing defenses certainly do and they adjust their defense accordingly. From what I've seen, Anthony Boone has shown that he can be an effective roll out quarterback THROWING the ball given the right play calling. He's a strong runner, but I think he can be an effective change of pace QB for when Renfree is off his game, or when the defensive rush is so strong that it dictates a more mobile QB. Our OL is getting better as the season goes along, protection is getting better, but it is nice to have the option.



I want to agree with you, but making 2 field goals changes the dynamic of the game and VT then tries to score in the 4th quarter. But, it would have been nice to make the short ones.
I said this in the stands at the time, but I would not have tried to kick that last FG based on score - it made no sense. We were down 14 - 10 mid 4th quarter, so we'd need another score to go ahead, and even if we got it, and the next score was a FG, we'd only have 16 points, which means that VT would also only need a FG in their last possession to get to 17 and beat us by one point (just like last week). NO, we needed 7 points on that possession, and I would have gone for the first down on 4th down to (eventually) get up by 3. Worst case, we didn't get the first down and we'd turn it over on downs and we still needed to score a touchdown to win (just like what happened when we missed the FG attempt, but no one expected that to happen and it was really inconsequential.) Going for the FG then was a conservative, conventional "safe" play. We've been playing losing football since 1994, we need to be aggressive and play to win, especially now that we have the talent to compete!


I posted before the game about how close this team was ... the loss to Virginia Tech just proved it. Duke is so close to success that it is heartbreaking. As I said earlier, the most important thing this team has to accomplish is that it needs to learn to win -- to acquire the poise and confidence that Coach K's basketball team has in close games. As it is now, we get to the end of close games and we hope to win, not expect to win.

Just a few observations:
-- Love the growth of the young defensive line. They pretty much won the battle up front (especially in the second half).
-- Loved seeing David Helton move in and play the majority of snaps at LB alongside Kelby Brown. He had two sacks last week. He was solid against VPI. These two guys are going to give us a great pair for the next two years.

-- I don't want to blame Will Snyderwine for the loss -- there was a lot more to it than his missed FGs.

-- Biggest problem with his team is the inability to convert red zone opprtunities into touchdowns. It cost us against Wake, it cost us against Richmond and it cost us against VPI. I know they've tried everything -- the Boone package, Renfree running, Renfee throwing -- I'd like to see a little more Renfree handing off or maybe try an option package with Corey Gattis (who was an option QB in high school). I don't know the answer. But neither does Kurt Roper. I agree with the poster who would like to see him relieved of the play-calling responsibilities. Whatever he's doing is not working.

-- Finally, mad props to Matt Daniels, who played one of the greatest games any Duke defensive back has ever played. ... He is a GREAT player.
Thanks for your support!

The team is close; they need to learn how to win and they'll do that by winning! Chicken or egg? Catch 22! It's going to happen, but it will happen faster and more consistently with better play calling. Sean Renfree needs to play like he's capable of playing. One former player expressed his opinion to me after the game and was questioning the QB coach's ability (it's not Cutcliffe, he's the guru :rolleyes:).

Matt Daniels is a stud! And so is Connor Vernon. True warriors! And fortunately, there are more on the team where they reside!

To whoever asked why Desmond Scott got caught on his long run, the answer is because he's not Josh Snead. Snead has the kind of speed that doesn't get caught from behind, but it's looking like we'll have to wait until next season to enjoy that!

Our next home game is in 3 weeks. IF we play up to our capabilities, and we catch a few lucky breaks, we could be playing for our 6th win on November 19th against Ga. Tech. I won't be shocked, but the folks in Miami and Charlotteville will be! :cool:

[SharkD]

Not to completely shift the discussion, but was anyone else as irked by the PA system and canned music as I was -- especially during the 4th quarter drives?

It seemed that every time the crowd would start to kindle a cheer of "Let's Go Duke" during a dead-ball situation on the final 3 drives, the PA system would start blaring one of the three canned songs, completely overpowering the crowd and dousing the embers of enthusiasm, in the stands.

The team seem electrified, the crowd becoming engaged, and then, all of a sudden, the air would go out of the stadium as soon as the selections from NOW That's What I call Music! No.'s 36, 37 and 38 began playing.

Meanwhile, when VPI had the ball, their fans had free reign to chant back-and-forth across the horseshoe.


(I'm waaay too young to be complaining about kids these days and their loud music.)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Not to completely shift the discussion, but was anyone else as irked by the PA system and canned music as I was -- especially during the 4th quarter drives?

It seemed that every time the crowd would start to kindle a cheer of "Let's Go Duke" during a dead-ball situation on the final 3 drives, the PA system would start blaring one of the three canned songs, completely overpowering the crowd and dousing the embers of enthusiasm, in the stands.

The team seem electrified, the crowd becoming engaged, and then, all of a sudden, the air would go out of the stadium as soon as the selections from NOW That's What I call Music! No.'s 36, 37 and 38 began playing.

Meanwhile, when VPI had the ball, their fans had free reign to chant back-and-forth across the horseshoe.


(I'm waaay too young to be complaining about kids these days and their loud music.)
I don't like it, but I've gotten used to it. WW just doesn't have the volume of fans to make the noise, so some "genius" marketing person thought one day a few years ago that piped in decibels would be the way to go. I guess I've built up a tolerance. I do loathe the same in Cameron though. Lord knows why they need to play the music there, when the pep band is way more entertaining. If I wanted to listen to that crap for a basketball game, I'd go check out an NBA event.

[Duke of Nashville]

Very proud in the way that our team played this Saturday. I still have alot of optimism for how the rest of the season can finish. I know I can see the progress we are making. Defense has played so well this year. Let's go Duke! Finish strong!

[gls6]

I admit that I haven't read every reply to this thread, but everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. Will Snyderwine is terrible and they need to stop letting him kick field goals. Maybe he was good in the past, but he has missed way too many this year. I know there were a lot more factors in play here, but I was ready to rush the field and instead I had to listen to all of my fellow fans make excuses yet again.

[Duke of Nashville]

I admit that I haven't read every reply to this thread, but everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. Will Snyderwine is terrible and they need to stop letting him kick field goals. Maybe he was good in the past, but he has missed way too many this year. I know there were a lot more factors in play here, but I was ready to rush the field and instead I had to listen to all of my fellow fans make excuses yet again.

Terrible isn't far off but the kid proved last year what he is capable of producing on the football field. I don't have any insight into what exactly his injury was earlier this seaon but it's had to of had a direct influence on his confidence/abilities. He was pre-season all-american. I don't listen to the majority of the fans excuses and I put more merit into what the coaches say. The coaches are not going to come out and say that we lost because of player x. Although, it would be very easy to say we lost this game because we missed three freakin field goals. There is not doubt our team would be in a more favorable position had Will lived up to the hype. Saying that, I still think we give him the opportunities to kick field goals.

[fan345678]

Here's another quote from VT defensive end James Gayle:
"Actually they were overly nice. Never had someone ask me where I was from in between snaps. Nothing but respect for Duke."
I saw it on a VT forum...not sure where it's printed, but that's a different experience than David Wilson's. It's typical for RB's to get most of the dirty stuff in the pile anyway (and typical for it to be just one or two guys dishing it out).

I was there on Saturday and the piped-in noise was indeed dreadful. I understand that playing the music on the visiting team's third downs is an effort to educate the crowd on when to make noise (a bit different in football...you don't make noise when your team has the ball, but you should make a lot of noise when your team is on D), but blaring music from the scoreboard probably keeps more people quiet than it encourages to be loud. It's bush league, but it's not nearly as bad at Wade as it is at a GT game in Atlanta. That place is miserable.

Word out of VT since Saturday was that Duke was the more prepared and the more fired-up team, with the defense being especially physical and intense. VT has never really had the best top-end talent, but has always made up for it in effort, hard work, and coaching, so to "out-effort" VT is a big step in the development of the Duke program. This was not like the close VT game a few years back when Tyrod Taylor had a bunch of early turnovers (though VT did throw two red zone picks on Saturday) and Duke couldn't move the football at all (the Zack-up-the-middle game). No, this was a gutsy and competent effort throughout.

As for Snyderwine, we can't fault him for missing a 57-yarder. The short one was a particularly bad miss, but remember that the VT kicker also missed a very short FG. Whether that FG should have been attempted or not is another question, but I can understand the coaches' desire to go for the FG and have a much smaller risk of an empty trip into VT's red zone. It didn't work, obviously, but a FG there keeps Duke chipping away and keeps the momentum in Duke's favor.

[loran16]

I admit that I haven't read every reply to this thread, but everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. Will Snyderwine is terrible and they need to stop letting him kick field goals. Maybe he was good in the past, but he has missed way too many this year. I know there were a lot more factors in play here, but I was ready to rush the field and instead I had to listen to all of my fellow fans make excuses yet again.

Not sure how long you've followed Duke Football, but the answer is this: There aren't really any better options on the roster. Snyderwine's upside is well ahead of any of our potential backups, and the backups aren't particularly good on average either.

FG Kicking has been a problem at Duke FOREVER.

[devildeac]

Terrible isn't far off but the kid proved last year what he is capable of producing on the football field. I don't have any insight into what exactly his injury was earlier this seaon but it's had to of had a direct influence on his confidence/abilities. He was pre-season all-american. I don't listen to the majority of the fans excuses and I put more merit into what the coaches say. The coaches are not going to come out and say that we lost because of player x. Although, it would be very easy to say we lost this game because we missed three freakin field goals. There is not doubt our team would be in a more favorable position had Will lived up to the hype. Saying that, I still think we give him the opportunities to kick field goals.

I believe Will had a foot/ankle injury in pre-season and was somewhat slow to recover in August and September so I think we can give him some slack early in the season. Plus, he re-aggravated it during an on-side kick against Stanford. A good friend of mine sat next to one of his family members at the FIU game and asked about the injury and said he was making nice progress. I would think he would not have resumed KO activities were he not near/at 100% at this time (well, as of a couple weeks ago). I think we are all highly disappointed by his performance on Saturday, but no one moreso than Will himself as he publicaly took the blame for the L based on his quote in the Raleigh N&O on Sunday AM. I think Vernon came to his defense and called it ridiculous and said the offense was to blame for failure to produce another TD with all our trips to the red zone in this game.

The 56 or 57 yard FGA he had at the end of the 1st half is in his range. Trust me with that info. One made FG of the other two might have changed the play calling on our last possession if we only had to get to their ~20 instead of needing the TD for the W. I'm with you, he had a great year last year and the staff has to trust him to make a high %age of his FGA inside the 30 or 40 yard line. I think we have a walk-on (Iijas), another Asack and a redshirt that apparently we do not plan to burn as our other options for the PK chores.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I admit that I haven't read every reply to this thread, but everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. Will Snyderwine is terrible and they need to stop letting him kick field goals. Maybe he was good in the past, but he has missed way too many this year. I know there were a lot more factors in play here, but I was ready to rush the field and instead I had to listen to all of my fellow fans make excuses yet again.
When JJ (or any other insanely good shooter) hit a cold streak did you ask for them to be benched? The truth is the only way he will get out of his mental block is to make a few, and to do that he needs to be on the field kicking. Unlike in basketball, a kicker only sees the field (hopefully) once or twice a game, and when they miss it is a huge event. What I didn't like seeing was the coaches' decision to have the confidence to set him for failure at the end of the half with a 56 yarder, and then not have the confidence to use him with enough time on our side still in the 4th. There are different ways to look at that 4th we decided to go for it (with a crappily called/designed running play). Yes, we were down 4 and needed a TD to get on top, but if Will makes that one then we are only down by 1 and he has his confidence for the final kick. (Which we would have had the opportunity for.)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I believe Will had a foot/ankle injury in pre-season and was somewhat slow to recover in August and September so I think we can give him some slack early in the season. Plus, he re-aggravated it during an on-side kick against Stanford. A good friend of mine sat next to one of his family members at the FIU game and asked about the injury and said he was making nice progress. I would think he would not have resumed KO activities were he not near/at 100% at this time (well, as of a couple weeks ago). I think we are all highly disappointed by his performance on Saturday, but no one moreso than Will himself as he publicly took the blame for the L based on his quote in the Raleigh N&O on Sunday AM. I think Vernon came to his defense and called it ridiculous and said the offense was to blame for failure to produce another TD with all our trips to the red zone in this game.

The 56 or 57 yard FGA he had at the end of the 1st half is in his range. Trust me with that info. One made FG of the other two might have changed the play calling on our last possession if we only had to get to their ~20 instead of needing the TD for the W. I'm with you, he had a great year last year and the staff has to trust him to make a high %age of his FGA inside the 30 or 40 yard line. I think we have a walk-on (Ijjas), another Asack and a redshirt that apparently we do not plan to burn as our other options for the PK chores.
I can't give you an update on Snyderwine's physical condition, but I wouldn't have tried the 57 yarder at the end of the half for two reasons, even if it was within his practice range, and that's if he was completely healthy. 1) How often do you hit the ball at close to 100% of your distance and hit it perfectly straight? You golfers can chime in here. Answer - not often. 2) Given maybe a <5% chance of hitting either the FG or scoring a TD on a "Hail Mary", given our history in the last 35 years, I'll go for the more aggressive play and go for the TD - see below. With the pass, if it's not completed, maybe VT commits a penalty and we get another chance to complete it from a shorter distance (or even kick a FG from a shorter distance).

When JJ (or any other insanely good shooter) hit a cold streak did you ask for them to be benched? The truth is the only way he will get out of his mental block is to make a few, and to do that he needs to be on the field kicking. Unlike in basketball, a kicker only sees the field (hopefully) once or twice a game, and when they miss it is a huge event. What I didn't like seeing was the coaches' decision to have the confidence to set him for failure at the end of the half with a 56 yarder, and then not have the confidence to use him with enough time on our side still in the 4th. There are different ways to look at that 4th we decided to go for it (with a crappily called/designed running play). Yes, we were down 4 and needed a TD to get on top, but if Will makes that one then we are only down by 1 and he has his confidence for the final kick. (Which we would have had the opportunity for.)
No, the math doesn't work if you extrapolate to the end of the game. Had we kicked 2 FG's to take a 16 - 14 lead with a 60 to 90 seconds left, it is far too easy for VT to have driven into FG range and then kick a game winning FG of their own and win 17 - 16. Even though we did have numerous 3 and outs against them (YAY!), there were many "bend but not break" stops as well, and, after all, we are still Duke, we would have been in a prevent defense in that last minute (we know how well that usually turns out...), and we needed a 3 point lead to have not lost when they kicked that end of game FG. A 1 or 2 point lead was trusting fate to think we could hold it, and we are not at that point. While you ponder this, remember, I am the optimist. We needed a 3 point lead.

[killerleft]

I admit that I haven't read every reply to this thread, but everyone seems to be ignoring the elephant in the room. Will Snyderwine is terrible and they need to stop letting him kick field goals. Maybe he was good in the past, but he has missed way too many this year. I know there were a lot more factors in play here, but I was ready to rush the field and instead I had to listen to all of my fellow fans make excuses yet again.

Will Snyderwine agrees with you, I'm sure, that he sucked on Saturday. He has had a slow-to-heal injury that has affected him. I think he's still gonna be our placekicker, so I'm looking for a rags-to-riches last five games from him. We know he can perform at a high level.

[jimsumner]

I can't give you an update on Snyderwine's physical condition, but I wouldn't have tried the 57 yarder at the end of the half for two reasons, even if it was within his practice range, and that's if he was completely healthy. 1) How often do you hit the ball at close to 100% of your distance and hit it perfectly straight? You golfers can chime in here. Answer - not often. 2) Given maybe a <5% chance of hitting either the FG or scoring a TD on a "Hail Mary", given our history in the last 35 years, I'll go for the more aggressive play and go for the TD - see below. With the pass, if it's not completed, maybe VT commits a penalty and we get another chance to complete it from a shorter distance (or even kick a FG from a shorter distance).

No, the math doesn't work if you extrapolate to the end of the game. Had we kicked 2 FG's to take a 16 - 14 lead with a 60 to 90 seconds left, it is far too easy for VT to have driven into FG range and then kick a game winning FG of their own and win 17 - 16. Even though we did have numerous 3 and outs against them (YAY!), there were many "bend but not break" stops as well, and, after all, we are still Duke, we would have been in a prevent defense in that last minute (we know how well that usually turns out...), and we needed a 3 point lead to have not lost when they kicked that end of game FG. A 1 or 2 point lead was trusting fate to think we could hold it, and we are not at that point. While you ponder this, remember, I am the optimist. We needed a 3 point lead.

If Snyderwine makes the two short field goals and Duke is up 16-14, then Duke likely goes for another short field goal in the 4th quarter, rather than go for it on fourth down. Lots of assumptions, here but that puts Duke up 19-14.

Of course, VT plays differently with a deficit than with a lead and the Wake game shows how quickly a lead can dissipate.

My understanding is that he is reasonably healthy. But I'm not sure if he's missing reps in practice. He went into the VT game on a roll and he's still never missed a PAT. And Duke certainly doesn't have any better options.

It's tough to win close games with a shaky FG game. Ask the Panthers.

Then again, there's a simple solution to over-reliance on your place-kicker. Score more touchdowns.

[gls6]

He is 7 for 14. I can recall 2 of them being particularly long and possibly unmakeable - one vs. Richmond and one vs. VT, but this percentage is worst in the ACC, and he was coming into this season as our All-ACC stud kicker. I think this goes beyond cold streak.

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.

[jimsumner]

He is 7 for 14. I can recall 2 of them being particularly long and possibly unmakeable - one vs. Richmond and one vs. VT, but this percentage is worst in the ACC, and he was coming into this season as our All-ACC stud kicker. I think this goes beyond cold streak.

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.

Why would you hold your breath on PATs? Snyderwine is 72-72 for his career. I just wish it were something closer to 172-172.

[gls6]

Why would you hold your breath on PATs? Snyderwine is 72-72 for his career. I just wish it were something closer to 172-172.

This is true. I guess I was just being dramatic.

[Reilly]

.... I would think he would not have resumed KO activities were he not near/at 100% at this time (well, as of a couple weeks ago). .....

Asack continues to kickoff, doesn't he? The gamenotes show he kicked off during the VT game.

[Reilly]

He is 7 for 14. .... I think this goes beyond cold streak.

....

He was 0 for 4 when hurt, including a 60 yard attempt.
Then, he went on a 6 for 6 run.
Then, he went 1 for 4 Saturday, one 57, one off the upright, and then the other one.

In short, I don't think he's *that* far off. As stated, his PATs are perfect, as well.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

He is 7 for 14. I can recall 2 of them being particularly long and possibly unmakeable - one vs. Richmond and one vs. VT, but this percentage is worst in the ACC, and he was coming into this season as our All-ACC stud kicker. I think this goes beyond cold streak.

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.
Snyderwine has been rock solid kicking FG's since he's gotten healthy, and I fully expected him to make the 38 yarder he attempted. In fact, I'll ask here since no one else has been able to tell me - how did he miss it? I could not tell from my vantage point in the stands - was it wide right, or left? I'll assume it wasn't "too high" and I know it was plenty long enough. I was expecting the refs to raise their arms signaling good, but instead they waved them "no good". I asked one of the cheerleaders after the game and she couldn't tell either. So honest question - why was it a miss?

I've already stated why I wouldn't have attempted the 57 yarder (it was at the edge of his range), and he SHOULD HAVE made the 27 yarder, even though I wouldn't have kicked it if it was my call. He just missed it. Even Mariano Rivera blows save a couple of times a year, usually by giving up a home run. Water under the bridge at this point.

I still have confidence in Will to be our FG and XP kicker. Next play.

[jimsumner]

Asack continues to kickoff, doesn't he? The gamenotes show he kicked off during the VT game.

Asack will continue to kick off. Snyderwine re-injured his foot on a kick-off earlier in the season. Duke won't take the chance on it happening again.

[sagegrouse]

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.

To "squarely place some of the blame" strikes me as scapegoating. Why should we be "placing blame" on college players wearing our uniform? I dunno who is "getting defensive." I think you are making inappropriate comments about our players who are trying hard. And wasn't Snyderwine a walk-on?

We have another subthread (Quin Cook) on randomness: with 14 observations, a success rate of 50% is not inconsistent with a much higher (or lower) underlying probability. And if you "censor" the data due to a preseason injury and drop the first four attempts, the success rate is 70%. I "wish" our kicker was more accurate; I "wish" our QB was more accurate on his tosses, and I would probably wish for a bunch of other things if I could figure out what was going on in the line play.

sagegrouse

[devildeac]

If Snyderwine makes the two short field goals and Duke is up 16-14, then Duke likely goes for another short field goal in the 4th quarter, rather than go for it on fourth down. Lots of assumptions, here but that puts Duke up 19-14.

Of course, VT plays differently with a deficit than with a lead and the Wake game shows how quickly a lead can dissipate.

My understanding is that he is reasonably healthy. But I'm not sure if he's missing reps in practice. He went into the VT game on a roll and he's still never missed a PAT. And Duke certainly doesn't have any better options.

It's tough to win close games with a shaky FG game. Ask the Panthers.

Then again, there's a simple solution to over-reliance on your place-kicker. Score more touchdowns.

Shoot, I'll take him making 1 of the 2 realistic FGA and then drive about 40 yards with about 90 seconds to go on the clock and kick the game winner from about their 25 or 30 with less than 10 seconds to go on the clock;).

[devildeac]

Why would you hold your breath on PATs? Snyderwine is 72-72 for his career. I just wish it were something closer to 172-172.

I'd be happy with 171/172 with his only miss coming against Elon;).

[devildeac]

I believe Will had a foot/ankle injury in pre-season and was somewhat slow to recover in August and September so I think we can give him some slack early in the season. Plus, he re-aggravated it during an on-side kick against Stanford. A good friend of mine sat next to one of his family members at the FIU game and asked about the injury and said he was making nice progress. I would think he would not have resumed KO activities were he not near/at 100% at this time (well, as of a couple weeks ago). I think we are all highly disappointed by his performance on Saturday, but no one moreso than Will himself as he publicly took the blame for the L based on his quote in the Raleigh N&O on Sunday AM. I think Vernon came to his defense and called it ridiculous and said the offense was to blame for failure to produce another TD with all our trips to the red zone in this game.

The 56 or 57 yard FGA he had at the end of the 1st half is in his range. Trust me with that info. One made FG of the other two might have changed the play calling on our last possession if we only had to get to their ~20 instead of needing the TD for the W. I'm with you, he had a great year last year and the staff has to trust him to make a high %age of his FGA inside the 30 or 40 yard line. I think we have a walk-on (Iijas), another Asack and a redshirt that apparently we do not plan to burn as our other options for the PK chores.


He is 7 for 14. I can recall 2 of them being particularly long and possibly unmakeable - one vs. Richmond and one vs. VT, but this percentage is worst in the ACC, and he was coming into this season as our All-ACC stud kicker. I think this goes beyond cold streak.

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.

See bolded area above.

[devildeac]

Asack continues to kickoff, doesn't he? The gamenotes show he kicked off during the VT game.

You may be correct. 96 and 98 look very similar with my aging eyes and no binoculars from my seat high up in the end zone:o. Heck, if it's Asack, I'm happy with his performance so far as Will's sub.

[gls6]

To "squarely place some of the blame" strikes me as scapegoating. Why should we be "placing blame" on college players wearing our uniform? I dunno who is "getting defensive." I think you are making inappropriate comments about our players who are trying hard. And wasn't Snyderwine a walk-on?
sagegrouse

Excuse me. I was not trying to be inappropriate and I was just thinking that the kicking game deserved criticism. I realize now that I should keep this type of talk to myself and I apologize. At this point, bowl eligibility is highly unlikely, so I should just enjoy the games and support the program as it continues to gain momentum and move in the right direction.

[jimsumner]

See bolded area above.

Snyderwine did indeed fall on his sword following the game, as he did following the Richmond game.

His teammates pooh-poohed the notion.

As they should have.

No one player loses a football game. Duke had exceptional position and lots of opportunities to get the ball in the end zone, time after time. Duke ran lots of plays deep in VT territory and somehow managed to cross the end zone only once. Obviously, VT had a lot to do with that. But if the offense executes better in the red zone, then the burden isn't on the place-kicker and we're not having this conversation.

[uh_no]

Excuse me. I was not trying to be inappropriate and I was just thinking that the kicking game deserved criticism. I realize now that I should keep this type of talk to myself and I apologize. At this point, bowl eligibility is highly unlikely, so I should just enjoy the games and support the program as it continues to gain momentum and move in the right direction.

There is no doubt that the kicking game deserves criticism, and you have no reason to be afraid to voice that criticism. What crosses the line is saying "the loss was xxx's fault".

Renfree missed receivers and fell a couple times.
the center snapped a few balls into the ground
the line didn't do as good a job blocking
the defense gave up some big plays

there are hundreds of things that all came together to cause us to lose the game. By definition, if we have to kick a field goal it means the rest of the offense didn't do its job, which is to put the ball in the endzone. On the 4th and 2, the offense had a play which fell apart...if that had gone different could we have won? sure. People blame the kicker because its easy.

Please don't be afraid to voice your opinions. If everyone here had the opinion that eveerything about anything duke was 100% positive, this board would be kinda boring. Just be very cautious about blaming a very complicated game such as football loss on a single player. Individuals can't win by themselves. They can't lose by themselves either.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

You may be correct. 96 and 98 look very similar with my aging eyes and no binoculars from my seat high up in the end zone:o. Heck, if it's Asack, I'm happy with his performance so far as Will's sub.
Not only has Paul Azack been pretty good at kicking off, he's run down the field and tackled opponents afterward...... a plus.

[Bob Green]

In fact, I'll ask here since no one else has been able to tell me - how did he miss it? I could not tell from my vantage point in the stands - was it wide right, or left? I'll assume it wasn't "too high" and I know it was plenty long enough. I was expecting the refs to raise their arms signaling good, but instead they waved them "no good". I asked one of the cheerleaders after the game and she couldn't tell either. So honest question - why was it a miss?

It was wide right.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

It was wide right.
Really? Wide right? Did they show a replay on TV?

[Bob Green]

Really? Wide right? Did they show a replay on TV?

Yes, I just re-watched the 38 and 29 yard misses. I guess right or left depends on the viewer's perspective. The kick was wide right from the same perspective that the kick which hit the upright hit the right upright.

http://espn.go.com/watchespn/player/_/source/espn3/id/310428/

[MattC09]

This is my first post on DBR, so hello everyone.

I have a question about the review of the fumble by Juwan Thompson in the 1st Quarter. Both live and watching it on ESPN3 replay, the ball was clearly loose before he was down but the whistle had blown multiple times before the ball was recovered by VT. Does the whistle no longer end a play?

I immediately screamed that it was an inadvertent whistle and thus the play was dead. Replay the down, and we maintain the ball. Since the game, I've talked to several football officials who have said that it should have been replayed rather than VT being awarded the ball. The same thing happened in the Clemson-GT game. Perhaps I'm unaware of some rule change, but I was hoping for some clarification. Does the replay official not have sound? Even still, the players all stopped before the ball was recovered...hinting at a whistle. I was incredibly confused...and upset.

[Newton_14]

He is 7 for 14. I can recall 2 of them being particularly long and possibly unmakeable - one vs. Richmond and one vs. VT, but this percentage is worst in the ACC, and he was coming into this season as our All-ACC stud kicker. I think this goes beyond cold streak.

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.

He played hurt against Richmond and Stanford and the ball did not even come off his foot good. All but one were bad misses which is highly uncharacteristic for Will. He has only missed 2 FG's while healthy. (It's ridiculous to hold a 57 yd attempt against him). If he had been healthy all year we wouldn't even be having this conversation. He had a bad day Saturday for sure, but he is still the best kicker on this team by a mile. Bench him and we won't make another FG the rest of the year. I don't think it is excuse making, when a kid is hurt, and fails to execute. If we had a quality backup, I suspect the coaching staff would have rested Will until the injury fully healed, but that luxury was not there.

We lost Saturday because of poor offense. Renfree had a subpar day as well. If he is on his game, we have a great chance of winning.

[CDu]

This is my first post on DBR, so hello everyone.

I have a question about the review of the fumble by Juwan Thompson in the 1st Quarter. Both live and watching it on ESPN3 replay, the ball was clearly loose before he was down but the whistle had blown multiple times before the ball was recovered by VT. Does the whistle no longer end a play?

I immediately screamed that it was an inadvertent whistle and thus the play was dead. Replay the down, and we maintain the ball. Since the game, I've talked to several football officials who have said that it should have been replayed rather than VT being awarded the ball. The same thing happened in the Clemson-GT game. Perhaps I'm unaware of some rule change, but I was hoping for some clarification. Does the replay official not have sound? Even still, the players all stopped before the ball was recovered...hinting at a whistle. I was incredibly confused...and upset.

In the NFL, the rule was changed in recent years so that, if a team was clearly in position to recover the ball when the whistle blows, the team is allowed the recovery. This was as a result of an inadvertant whistle on a QB forced fumble that would have clearly been recovered by the defense and decided the game.

I don't know if college football has adopted the same rule, but frequently they do end up following the NFL's lead. And in this case, there were like 6 VT guys and no Duke guys in the neighborhood of the ball when the whistle blew.

[Newton_14]

Individuals can't win by themselves. .

You're right, but Matt Daniels tries awful damn hard at it...

[devildeac]

You're right, but Matt Daniels tries awful damn hard at it...

I meant to comment on him earlier. He missed a tackle early and allowed a long gainer on a run but he ended up playing a fabulous game. I really thought he made an incredible play and had his 3rd pick but that got overturned, ultimately to our benefit, as they shanked a punt on the next play and we ended up about +25 yards on that exchange:D. I also thought Foster looked really bad when he got beat for about 60 yards but he thoroughly redeemed himself too as I think it was him who broke up 1 or even 2 pass plays in their next set of plays after that long pass which eventually led to their missed FG.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

This is my first post on DBR, so hello everyone.

I have a question about the review of the fumble by Juwan Thompson in the 1st Quarter. Both live and watching it on ESPN3 replay, the ball was clearly loose before he was down but the whistle had blown multiple times before the ball was recovered by VT. Does the whistle no longer end a play?

I immediately screamed that it was an inadvertent whistle and thus the play was dead. Replay the down, and we maintain the ball. Since the game, I've talked to several football officials who have said that it should have been replayed rather than VT being awarded the ball. The same thing happened in the Clemson-GT game. Perhaps I'm unaware of some rule change, but I was hoping for some clarification. Does the replay official not have sound? Even still, the players all stopped before the ball was recovered...hinting at a whistle. I was incredibly confused...and upset.


In the NFL, the rule was changed in recent years so that, if a team was clearly in position to recover the ball when the whistle blows, the team is allowed the recovery. This was as a result of an inadvertant whistle on a QB forced fumble that would have clearly been recovered by the defense and decided the game.

I don't know if college football has adopted the same rule, but frequently they do end up following the NFL's lead. And in this case, there were like 6 VT guys and no Duke guys in the neighborhood of the ball when the whistle blew.
Good question, because I was screaming the same thing after that play. No one around me was aware of the rule change either, but obviously there has been some sort of change because we all heard the whistles and most of the players stopped playing before VT fell on the ball.

[Olympic Fan]

Good question, because I was screaming the same thing after that play. No one around me was aware of the rule change either, but obviously there has been some sort of change because we all heard the whistles and most of the players stopped playing before VT fell on the ball.

In college, if the ball is fumbled and the whistle blows before it is recovered, the play is dead and possession returns to the team that lost it -- even if the defensive team is in position to recover it and in fact does recover it after the whistle.

Cutcliffe told the press after the game that he tried to make that point to the refs after the Juwan Thompson fumble ... he claimed that he clearly heard a whistle too while the ball was bouncing loose. But he was told that none of the officials blew a whistle and that the replay official did not hear a whistle when he reviewed the play. I can't say for sure that I heard one as I watched the play, but I noticed that players on both teams seemed to stop -- nobody made an aggresive move for the ball. When the VPI player came up with it (it bounced right to him), there was a moment of hesitation before he started to run with it.

[Reilly]

In college, if the ball is fumbled and the whistle blows before it is recovered, the play is dead and possession returns to the team that lost it -- even if the defensive team is in position to recover it and in fact does recover it after the whistle.

Cutcliffe told the press after the game that he tried to make that point to the refs after the Juwan Thompson fumble ... he claimed that he clearly heard a whistle too while the ball was bouncing loose. But he was told that none of the officials blew a whistle and that the replay official did not hear a whistle when he reviewed the play. I can't say for sure that I heard one as I watched the play, but I noticed that players on both teams seemed to stop -- nobody made an aggresive move for the ball. When the VPI player came up with it (it bounced right to him), there was a moment of hesitation before he started to run with it.

Really? The college rule has not been changed to match the NFL rule? Ay ya ya ... now this play really makes me mad. First, it sure sounded like a whistle blew, to me, watching on TV. Second, if none of the refs blew a whistle .... when did the ever blow a whistle -- the VT player was never tackled, was he? Play just sort of stopped. So, they had to blow a whistle *at some point* .... why did they blow a whistle when they did? Or, maybe the truly never did blow a whistle, and the play is continuing on right now, a little after 6 am on Tuesday ....

[devildeac]

In college, if the ball is fumbled and the whistle blows before it is recovered, the play is dead and possession returns to the team that lost it -- even if the defensive team is in position to recover it and in fact does recover it after the whistle.

Cutcliffe told the press after the game that he tried to make that point to the refs after the Juwan Thompson fumble ... he claimed that he clearly heard a whistle too while the ball was bouncing loose. But he was told that none of the officials blew a whistle and that the replay official did not hear a whistle when he reviewed the play. I can't say for sure that I heard one as I watched the play, but I noticed that players on both teams seemed to stop -- nobody made an aggresive move for the ball. When the VPI player came up with it (it bounced right to him), there was a moment of hesitation before he started to run with it.

Lending further credence to the Cameron Crazies chant:

"I'm blind, I'M DEAF, I wanna be a ref."

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Lending further credence to the Cameron Crazies chant:

"I'm blind, I'M DEAF, I wanna be a ref."
So many thought they heard a whistle, but the officials said they didn't signal end of play.... could the whistle have been blown by someone else? I have tried to access replays, but now I wonder about this possibility.

[CameronBornAndBred]

In college, if the ball is fumbled and the whistle blows before it is recovered, the play is dead and possession returns to the team that lost it -- even if the defensive team is in position to recover it and in fact does recover it after the whistle.

Cutcliffe told the press after the game that he tried to make that point to the refs after the Juwan Thompson fumble ... he claimed that he clearly heard a whistle too while the ball was bouncing loose. But he was told that none of the officials blew a whistle and that the replay official did not hear a whistle when he reviewed the play. I can't say for sure that I heard one as I watched the play, but I noticed that players on both teams seemed to stop -- nobody made an aggresive move for the ball. When the VPI player came up with it (it bounced right to him), there was a moment of hesitation before he started to run with it.
There were 2 instances that DD and I (and some guy behind us) were screaming "RUN A PLAY!!!!". We didn't care what play, we didn't care if Renfree called for a hike and then fell on the ball. Everyone in Durham county knew that play was going to be reviewed...SO YOU DON'T GIVE THE REFS THE TIME TO REVIEW IT!!!! Arrrgh. Get up to scrimmage, snap it and keep the ball. Even if we don't make any yards, even if we lose yards, we still maintain possession.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

In college, if the ball is fumbled and the whistle blows before it is recovered, the play is dead and possession returns to the team that lost it -- even if the defensive team is in position to recover it and in fact does recover it after the whistle.

Cutcliffe told the press after the game that he tried to make that point to the refs after the Juwan Thompson fumble ... he claimed that he clearly heard a whistle too while the ball was bouncing loose. But he was told that none of the officials blew a whistle and that the replay official did not hear a whistle when he reviewed the play. I can't say for sure that I heard one as I watched the play, but I noticed that players on both teams seemed to stop -- nobody made an aggresive move for the ball. When the VPI player came up with it (it bounced right to him), there was a moment of hesitation before he started to run with it.
It may be time for Coach Cut to have a couple of Coach K moments with the refs to start getting their respect, and more importantly their attention and the calls going Duke's way, fair and impartially, of course http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/3.gif

[OldPhiKap]

I want to give Beamer some credit for his quote (on the front page) that Duke played well and his players need to stop whining about how Duke played. I thought his response to the issue was wholly appropriate.

[killerleft]

So many thought they heard a whistle, but the officials said they didn't signal end of play.... could the whistle have been blown by someone else? I have tried to access replays, but now I wonder about this possibility.

If the refs said they didn't blow a whistle, they were sadly (for us) mistaken. I just reviewed the play and the player was ruled down. Several whistles blew and the ref's arm is clearly pointing toward where Juwan went down. The ref is without a doubt signalling that the play was over at that moment. What other reason would the officials have for stopping what (if no whistle was blown) could have been a legitimate fumble return for a touchdown? I have no idea what the ruling should be on a play that happens thay way, but the replay doesn't lie.

The refs just blew the play. There was no way to absolutely determine what may have happened if they had not.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I want to give Beamer some credit for his quote (on the front page) that Duke played well and his players need to stop whining about how Duke played. I thought his response to the issue was wholly appropriate.
You're absolutely right! Never thought I'd hear Frank Beamer say that Duke played an excellent game regardless of whatever happened on the field. As for the whining players, sometimes a little psychological projection (or is it transference?) can interfere with the facts.

[Duke of Nashville]

You're absolutely right! Never thought I'd hear Frank Beamer say that Duke played an excellent game regardless of whatever happened on the field. As for the whining players, sometimes a little psychological projection (or is it transference?) can interfere with the facts.

In the conference calls leading up to the game this past Saturday Beamer also pointed out that Duke was only a couple of points away from being a 5-2 team. He also said something along the lines of Duke is a team you have to watch out for. Take it for what it is worth I guess but he earned some respect in my mind for the way he approached and applauded Duke Football.

[Son of Jarhead]

He is 7 for 14. I can recall 2 of them being particularly long and possibly unmakeable - one vs. Richmond and one vs. VT, but this percentage is worst in the ACC, and he was coming into this season as our All-ACC stud kicker. I think this goes beyond cold streak.

I really don't see why anyone is getting defensive after Richmond, Stanford, and now VT. I think we can squarely place some of the blame here on 96. I acknowledge that it's not cut and dry that we win the game if he makes two of them, and no I could not do any better, but it's really a shame that I am holding my breath on extra points and 25-yarders.


He played hurt against Richmond and Stanford and the ball did not even come off his foot good. All but one were bad misses which is highly uncharacteristic for Will. He has only missed 2 FG's while healthy. (It's ridiculous to hold a 57 yd attempt against him). If he had been healthy all year we wouldn't even be having this conversation. He had a bad day Saturday for sure, but he is still the best kicker on this team by a mile. Bench him and we won't make another FG the rest of the year. I don't think it is excuse making, when a kid is hurt, and fails to execute. If we had a quality backup, I suspect the coaching staff would have rested Will until the injury fully healed, but that luxury was not there.

We lost Saturday because of poor offense. Renfree had a subpar day as well. If he is on his game, we have a great chance of winning.

Good reply by Newt & others so I won't repeat all they have said. On the 2 missed while healthy from Saturday, the first was pushed right (not by much) & the second hit the right upright. Ok, so he missed them, but to me, it seems only fair to remember that it was a somewhat windy day. I am certain the wind was gusting pretty hard left-to-right and towards Will on the second one that hit the upright (I don't recall the wind on the first miss), so... for me, in addition to the 2 long tries & the 4 missed while hurt, I'm also going to cut him some slack at least on the hit upright.

[devilirium]

Kid blew it. He had 8 days off to heal the foot, and he kicked pretty well for a short time after that. His kicking has cost Duke 2 games this year. We were not going to score 7 on VT more times than not with Renfree at the controls. Duke had to take advantage of getting 3 when it could. Their defense is pretty stout--even with all the injuries that they've sustained.

It's admirable that Will took responsibility for the loss (and Cut covering him for it--although I'm betting that if Cut had a few beers then he'd tell you how he'd really feel), but you have to produce when the snap and hold are there. And they have been.

I don't disagree that the talent behind Will is not as good. I just wish that Will would've held off on his dream season. He couldn't miss last year.

[cspan37421]

it's a team sport. I'm sure Will is doing the best he can, and if it's not very good right now, well, that stinks for all of us, but it's the job of the coaching staff to prepare for contingencies like injuries. If they didn't recruit a kicker to back him up, or cross-train someone like Asack or King to step in should a Will get injured (or the yips, or whatever), then they share responsibility.

[jimsumner]

it's a team sport. I'm sure Will is doing the best he can, and if it's not very good right now, well, that stinks for all of us, but it's the job of the coaching staff to prepare for contingencies like injuries. If they didn't recruit a kicker to back him up, or cross-train someone like Asack or King to step in should a Will get injured (or the yips, or whatever), then they share responsibility.

Neither Snyderwine nor King was recruited. Asack was. Draw your own conclusions.

Walk-on Jeffrey Ijjas kicked some when Will was injured. He's Plan B.

Duke is redshirting freshman Will Monday, a top prep punter and decent place-kicker and has a committment from one of the top 2-3 place-kickers in this year's high-school class.

You have 85 total scholarships. Snyderwine, Monday and Asack are on scholarships. Not sure about King, but I think not. That's about as many scholarships as you want to tie up on kickers.

[mkline09]

Neither Snyderwine nor King was recruited. Asack was. Draw your own conclusions.

Walk-on Jeffrey Ijjas kicked some when Will was injured. He's Plan B.

Duke is redshirting freshman Will Monday, a top prep punter and decent place-kicker and has a committment from one of the top 2-3 place-kickers in this year's high-school class.

You have 85 total scholarships. Snyderwine, Monday and Asack are on scholarships. Not sure about King, but I think not. That's about as many scholarships as you want to tie up on kickers.

If King isn't on scholarship he certainly has earned one of late because that kid has been punting the ball well. They aren't always pretty but they've been extremely effective in flipping field position. He punted very well against VT and really has done much better since Duke abandoned the catch take two steps to your right and then punt approach which did nothing but create a series of blocks and almost blocks.

He also is on the Ray Guy Award list so good for Alex.

[jimsumner]

If King isn't on scholarship he certainly has earned one of late because that kid has been punting the ball well. They aren't always pretty but they've been extremely effective in flipping field position. He punted very well against VT and really has done much better since Duke abandoned the catch take two steps to your right and then punt approach which did nothing but create a series of blocks and almost blocks.

He also is on the Ray Guy Award list so good for Alex.

I mentioned this on another thread but King's father died a few weeks ago, making his recent performances even more impressive.

[mkline09]

I mentioned this on another thread but King's father died a few weeks ago, making his recent performances even more impressive.

Yeah I just saw that. Great story out of such a tragic one.

[chrishoke]

Remarkable game from Alan King given what he has gone through with the recent death oif his father. Thoughts and prayers go out to Alan and his family.

[cspan37421]

Neither Snyderwine nor King was recruited. Asack was. Draw your own conclusions.

Walk-on Jeffrey Ijjas kicked some when Will was injured. He's Plan B.

Duke is redshirting freshman Will Monday, a top prep punter and decent place-kicker and has a committment from one of the top 2-3 place-kickers in this year's high-school class.

You have 85 total scholarships. Snyderwine, Monday and Asack are on scholarships. Not sure about King, but I think not. That's about as many scholarships as you want to tie up on kickers.

You're right, you don't want to tie up too many of those ... but consider, who are the all-time scoring leaders in (pro) football? The top 20 is almost all kickers (it may be all; I don't know quite all of them); unless I'm missing something, that suggests it's an important spot to fill.

I don't mind if you're stingy with scholarships, but it seems like to me you need at the very least a back-up plan that would have someone (and I'll make up some numbers here) equally accurate from inside 30; 75% as accurate from 30-45 yds, and half as accurate from 45+. In other words, there's a reason they're not the starter, but they're serviceable in a pinch. Maybe a punter who can do that. But why doesn't our kickoff guy do it?

You noted Paul Asack was recruited and is on scholarship. According to his bio he's a) a place kicker and b) not scored a point for the Duke offense in his 4 years. I understand he's doing kickoffs, which is wonderful, but I find it more than a bit odd that your #1 place kicker is not your kickoff guy, and your kickoff guy isn't even your #2 place-kicker. So while I can understand being stingy on scholarships, I do wonder about how efficiently they're being used. If Alex King doesn't need one, we owe him a BIG thanks. He's been really good for us.

[Newton_14]

You're right, you don't want to tie up too many of those ... but consider, who are the all-time scoring leaders in (pro) football? The top 20 is almost all kickers (it may be all; I don't know quite all of them); unless I'm missing something, that suggests it's an important spot to fill.

I don't mind if you're stingy with scholarships, but it seems like to me you need at the very least a back-up plan that would have someone (and I'll make up some numbers here) equally accurate from inside 30; 75% as accurate from 30-45 yds, and half as accurate from 45+. In other words, there's a reason they're not the starter, but they're serviceable in a pinch. Maybe a punter who can do that. But why doesn't our kickoff guy do it?

You noted Paul Asack was recruited and is on scholarship. According to his bio he's a) a place kicker and b) not scored a point for the Duke offense in his 4 years. I understand he's doing kickoffs, which is wonderful, but I find it more than a bit odd that your #1 place kicker is not your kickoff guy, and your kickoff guy isn't even your #2 place-kicker. So while I can understand being stingy on scholarships, I do wonder about how efficiently they're being used. If Alex King doesn't need one, we owe him a BIG thanks. He's been really good for us.

Will was the Number 1 kickoff guy before the injury. Since the injury, Asack has handled all of the kickoff duties, I assume to help Will with the healing process. In the Stanford game, I am not positive but I believe Asack attempted one of the FG's and Ijjas attempted the other. Both missed badly. In regards to Asack not having scored a point in his career, up until this year he was 3rd or lower on the depth chart and thus had never attempted an extra point that I am aware of prior to this year. Asack has performed well in kickoff duties, and I have no idea why he is not the backup placekicker. I assume Ijjas outperforms him in practice. Agree it is an odd situation though.

[jimsumner]

You're right, you don't want to tie up too many of those ... but consider, who are the all-time scoring leaders in (pro) football? The top 20 is almost all kickers (it may be all; I don't know quite all of them); unless I'm missing something, that suggests it's an important spot to fill.

I don't mind if you're stingy with scholarships, but it seems like to me you need at the very least a back-up plan that would have someone (and I'll make up some numbers here) equally accurate from inside 30; 75% as accurate from 30-45 yds, and half as accurate from 45+. In other words, there's a reason they're not the starter, but they're serviceable in a pinch. Maybe a punter who can do that. But why doesn't our kickoff guy do it?

You noted Paul Asack was recruited and is on scholarship. According to his bio he's a) a place kicker and b) not scored a point for the Duke offense in his 4 years. I understand he's doing kickoffs, which is wonderful, but I find it more than a bit odd that your #1 place kicker is not your kickoff guy, and your kickoff guy isn't even your #2 place-kicker. So while I can understand being stingy on scholarships, I do wonder about how efficiently they're being used. If Alex King doesn't need one, we owe him a BIG thanks. He's been really good for us.

Cut didn't recruit Asack. He was already in the pipeline. My understanding is that his place-kicking in the springs and during practices has not been impressive enough to justify using him in games. But he's done what he was asked to do, is in academic good standing and Duke isn't the kind of place that runs off players. Which I applaud.

He has done a decent job on kickoffs and I'm glad he's getting an opportunity to contribute.

[Acymetric]

You're right, you don't want to tie up too many of those ... but consider, who are the all-time scoring leaders in (pro) football? The top 20 is almost all kickers (it may be all; I don't know quite all of them); unless I'm missing something, that suggests it's an important spot to fill.

I don't mind if you're stingy with scholarships, but it seems like to me you need at the very least a back-up plan that would have someone (and I'll make up some numbers here) equally accurate from inside 30; 75% as accurate from 30-45 yds, and half as accurate from 45+. In other words, there's a reason they're not the starter, but they're serviceable in a pinch. Maybe a punter who can do that. But why doesn't our kickoff guy do it?

You noted Paul Asack was recruited and is on scholarship. According to his bio he's a) a place kicker and b) not scored a point for the Duke offense in his 4 years. I understand he's doing kickoffs, which is wonderful, but I find it more than a bit odd that your #1 place kicker is not your kickoff guy, and your kickoff guy isn't even your #2 place-kicker. So while I can understand being stingy on scholarships, I do wonder about how efficiently they're being used. If Alex King doesn't need one, we owe him a BIG thanks. He's been really good for us.

Our #1 placekicker was our #1 kickoff guy until he re-injured his foot on a kickoff earlier this season. The staff decided that the #2 kickoff guy would handle kickoffs to prevent another injury to Nick, saving him for placekicking duties.

[mkline09]

According to Cut's breakdown of Miami last night it sounds as if Miami may be the biggest team Duke plays on both sides of the ball. He also said they are really fast and have a lot of weapons namely there 6'5" wide receiver Tommy Streeter who has 600 plus yards and 7 TDs this season. Cut also praised QB Jacory Harris as being better because it sounds like he isn't just tossing the ball up hoping Hankerson goes and gets it. Called Travis Benjamin the fastest guy in pad in the ACC. So sounds like it could be a busy day for the secondary unless they corners can disrupt the wide receivers at the line of scrimmage but a risky proposition cause they could beat you easily with a double move with the speed they have. Going to need lots of safety help on deep routes.

Defensively Cut says he thinks Duke can exploit their secondary which he called the 'newest' part of the team. Overall he seems positive happy with the way the team is playing and says they are playing better just not winning. He mentioned that he has gotten to watch a lot more football in recent weeks with the early games and feels that Duke is playing as well if not better than some teams who are winning but who have that one guy that can make a play when they need it.

Desmond Scott he said is about 100 percent again and it sounds like he really could have missed more time but pushed himself to get back and play. Was a serious ligament injury in his knee. I think that cut/stop and go move he pulled off against Virginia Tech showed us all what he is capable of bringing when healthy. Too bad they didn't capitalize on that drive.

Going to be tough but he thinks they can do it.

[jimsumner]

Will was the Number 1 kickoff guy before the injury. Since the injury, Asack has handled all of the kickoff duties, I assume to help Will with the healing process. In the Stanford game, I am not positive but I believe Asack attempted one of the FG's and Ijjas attempted the other. Both missed badly. In regards to Asack not having scored a point in his career, up until this year he was 3rd or lower on the depth chart and thus had never attempted an extra point that I am aware of prior to this year. Asack has performed well in kickoff duties, and I have no idea why he is not the backup placekicker. I assume Ijjas outperforms him in practice. Agree it is an odd situation though.

Snyderwine missed two FGs against Stanford, Ijjas missed one. Asack has never attempted a place kick in a Duke game.

[Newton_14]

Snyderwine missed two FGs against Stanford, Ijjas missed one. Asack has never attempted a place kick in a Duke game.

Thanks Jim. I was at the game and wasn't sure if Asack attempted one of those or not. Was thinking there were two attempts after Will went out but, I know better than to question to Sumner guy.:) Thanks for clarifying.

[fan345678]

You're absolutely right! Never thought I'd hear Frank Beamer say that Duke played an excellent game regardless of whatever happened on the field. As for the whining players, sometimes a little psychological projection (or is it transference?) can interfere with the facts.

Not pointing a finger, but I've seen a lot of antagonism toward Beamer posted on these forums before. He really is a humble, deferential guy...to the point that many VT fans get frustrated with him for it. He inherited a program on UNC-style probation (Bill Dooley was his predecessor) and has taken them to the level they are today. If it weren't for Beamer, VT would be floundering in Conference-USA or the rotten shell of the Big East. He's really done a Paterno-type job on the whole university. Obviously, his greatest fault is that he has given too many of his players too many chances, but it's not like he's pompous about it (see: Bowden) or a jerk to other coaches or the media (see: Spurrier). Personality-wise, he's really very Cutcliffe-esque. Yes, there was the rogue strong safety Aaron Rouse who tried to personally take out Thad a few years back, but remember that Beamer set UNC football back almost a decade by playing Baddour in order to get more money for the VT assistant coaches from the stingy (but very very good) VT AD...so what's not to like?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Not pointing a finger, but I've seen a lot of antagonism toward Beamer posted on these forums before. He really is a humble, deferential guy...to the point that many VT fans get frustrated with him for it. He inherited a program on UNC-style probation (Bill Dooley was his predecessor) and has taken them to the level they are today. If it weren't for Beamer, VT would be floundering in Conference-USA or the rotten shell of the Big East. He's really done a Paterno-type job on the whole university. Obviously, his greatest fault is that he has given too many of his players too many chances, but it's not like he's pompous about it (see: Bowden) or a jerk to other coaches or the media (see: Spurrier). Personality-wise, he's really very Cutcliffe-esque. Yes, there was the rogue strong safety Aaron Rouse who tried to personally take out Thad a few years back, but remember that Beamer set UNC football back almost a decade by playing Baddour in order to get more money for the VT assistant coaches from the stingy (but very very good) VT AD...so what's not to like?
My reference was not to Beamer's personality, but rather the great difference in play on the part of the Duke team. Beamer is gracious in post game interviews....but saying that Duke played an excellent game is not about being gracious, it's a reflection of the level of improvement.

[formerdukeathlete]

Snyderwine missed two FGs against Stanford, Ijjas missed one. Asack has never attempted a place kick in a Duke game.

Why it took us until Snyderline's injury to figure out that Asack was the right call for kickoffs is beyond me. In one game, i think VT, Asack kicked off and got the stop at the 11 yard line. That is, he was first to tackle the VT player.

Asack is a legit 220, 6-2 player who hit hard as a linebacker in high school, and may be one of the strongest guys on the team at his size / weight.

Why risk an injury with Snyderline kicking off? Certainly Snyderline is no comparison stopping returns.

Asack kicks as far or farther.

[Jarhead]

Why it took us until Snyderline's injury to figure out that Asack was the right call for kickoffs is beyond me. In one game, i think VT, Asack kicked off and got the stop at the 11 yard line. That is, he was first to tackle the VT player.

Asack is a legit 220, 6-2 player who hit hard as a linebacker in high school, and may be one of the strongest guys on the team at his size / weight.

Why risk an injury with Snyderline kicking off? Certainly Snyderline is no comparison stopping returns.

Asack kicks as far or farther.

My guess is that Snyderwine isn't in your spell checker. http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/4.gif

[formerdukeathlete]

My guess is that Snyderwine isn't in your spell checker. http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/4.gif

touche :)