Redshirt anyone?

[lotusland]

The red-shirt idea was floated over the summer about both MP3 and Murphey but it seems that Murphey won't red-shirt now. MP3 was mentioned again as a candidate recently although I can't recall what article it was in. I know some people think QC will be an impact player this year but I doubt it unless Seth or TT gets injured. Tyler ended up being an important contributor last year after Kyrie was injured so anything is possible. Even so I think we're stacked at PG so if QC's knee is less than 100% I'd sit him. I think the Murphey speculation was more about him coming early than his readiness and there hasn't been any buzz about Silent G sitting out even though he appears to be 10 or 11 on the depth chart at this point. If I had to guess I'd say MP3 or no one at this point.

Anyone else have an opinion about potential re-shirt candidates?

[pfrduke]

The red-shirt idea was floated over the summer about both MP3 and Murphey but it seems that Murphey won't red-shirt now. MP3 was mentioned again as a candidate recently although I can't recall what article it was in. I know some people think QC will be an impact player this year but I doubt it unless Seth or TT gets injured. Tyler ended up being an important contributor last year after Kyrie was injured so anything is possible. Even so I think we're stacked at PG so if QC's knee is less than 100% I'd sit him. I think the Murphey speculation was more about him coming early than his readiness and there hasn't been any buzz about Silent G sitting out even though he appears to be 10 or 11 on the depth chart at this point. If I had to guess I'd say MP3 or no one at this point.

Anyone else have an opinion about potential re-shirt candidates?

Murphey now joins a long line of Duke greats, including Reddick, Sheldon, Shyer, Singlar, etc., etc., etc.

[Duvall]

Murphey now joins a long line of Duke greats, including Reddick, Sheldon, Shyer, Singlar, etc., etc., etc.

I don't even get how that's possible. Who the heck is named Murphey?

[davekay1971]

I just don't see much reason to redshirt anyone. For one thing, basketball is completely unlike football, where redshirts are more common. 18 and 19 years olds frequently don't have the physical maturity to play college football. In basketball, on the other hand, 18 and 19 year olds are usually physically ready to play, and, frequently, dominate. For another, is there a really good argument that either Murphy or Plumlee will have any particular need for four years of eligibility following this year? Murphy can probably earn some time this year, since we really don't have anyone else on the team quite like him. Next year he may very well start, or at least be a sub in the 20 minutes per game range. As for Marshall, next year Miles will be gone and, if Mason finally gets it to click as Coach K seems to indicate he's looking for this year, Mason may earn a high enough draft pick to warrant going to the NBA as well. There hasn't been much talk of RK making the leap, but he doesn't really compete for time at Marshall's position anyway. Marshall will likely either be first sub at the 5 next year and, if Mason goes pro, may be our starter at the 5.

So, I expect both Murphy and Marshall can realistically look forward to 3 years of solid playing time, maybe even 2-3 years starting, without redshirting this season.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The coaches REALLY want to redshirt Josh Snead this year.

[UrinalCake]

I don't see Marshall redshirting; I don't think we're as deep inside as others seem to think. MP1 and MP2 are still pretty foul-prone. Hairston is undersized to guard the 5 and barely has more experience than Marshall. So I think we'll see MP3 get some playing time, and even if it's just a few minutes here and there it'd be a reason not to redshirt. Also there's the whole factor of getting to play with his brothers.

[Kedsy]

Also there's the whole factor of getting to play with his brothers.

I think this is the key. If Marshall has any say in the matter, I'd be very surprised if he'd redshirt away the chance to play in games alongside his older brothers. And nobody else is going to redshirt, either. To me, this is a manufactured issue.

[airowe]

I think Marshall would benefit tremendously from a redshirt year. He wasn't held back a year like his brothers were at Christ School. We'll find out very soon.

[Olympic Fan]

We'll know Saturday night ... any player who plays even one second in the exhibition game will not be eligible to redshirt.

Personally, I think the idea that Murphy or Cook might redshirt are silly -- both are going to average doubl;e figure minutes this season.

Marshall Plumlee ... maybe. It's not that his game or body needs it (he's further advanced than say Carson Desrosier or Daniel Miller were a year ago -- he'd be starting this year at Maryland or Boston College; he'd be a key player at Clemson, Georgia Tech or Wake Forest). But I don't buy that he's get many minutes. at Duke.

[loldevilz]

Hasn't coach already basically discounted the idea that anyone will red shirt. He said in an interview that he can't remember the last time he redshirted anyone like the players he has right now. Sure Marshall has guys in front of him who can play, but he's a McDonalds All American. He and the rest of the freshman are ready to play college basketball.

[lotusland]

I think this is the key. If Marshall has any say in the matter, I'd be very surprised if he'd redshirt away the chance to play in games alongside his older brothers. And nobody else is going to redshirt, either. To me, this is a manufactured issue.

It wasn't meant to be an issue just a topic of conversation. Duke has an abundance of depth this year so the 10, 11 and 12 guys are going to sit a lot. It's just a matter of whether they're wearing warm-ups or street clothes. Bigs tend to develop slower so I think having MP3 as a 5th year senior might be beneficial. I doesn't seem like anyone else is a red shirt candidate except for an injury.

[Duke of Nashville]

The coaches REALLY want to redshirt Josh Snead this year.

Is this still an option? I hope so, it's been a tough year for the kid. I would love to see him and Crowder on the same field together....


As far as basketball goes I don't see K ever redshirting anyone unless for a medical reason.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Is this still an option? I hope so, it's been a tough year for the kid. I would love to see him and Crowder on the same field together....


As far as basketball goes I don't see K ever redshirting anyone unless for a medical reason.
Yes, see this week's football injury report thread. Snead hasn't played a down this year due to his injured foot, which is now healed. He wants to play, but with less than half the season left, and no running backs recruited in this year's class, the coaches would really like to stagger his class (he's a sophomore) and get him for an extra year. He's got great speed and is a breakaway runner - he can be a star in this league! And please note that I put Snead (football) in this obviously basketball thread as a point of humor; I don't think any of our big men are going to redshirt this year, but like with recruiting, I'll believe it when I see it. :cool:

[gumbomoop]

Personally, I think the idea that Murphy or Cook might redshirt are silly -- both are going to average double figure minutes this season.

I agree with this, but want to point out what is surely a logical extension of this prediction, should it come true: it means K will use a legitimate 9-man rotation.

Inside: MP1, MP2, Kelly = 75-80 mpg, with mop-up minutes/DNP for JH and MP3
Perimeter: SC, AD, AR = ~90 mpg, leaving 30-32 mpg to be roughly equally split among 3 of these 4: TT, AM, QC, MG. Most likely MG slips down.

I could be persuaded that by late season, either TT or QC will lose minutes to the other, which would, in turn, mean K goes back to an 8-man rotation, which might or might not include QC. And if not, QC doesn't quite average double-figure mpg. But QC redshirt, no. He'll play some, and someday soon enough be a star.

It's also possible, if unlikely, that MG's defense could prove more valuable than AM's all-around game, in which case AM doesn't average double figure.

There seems a clear top-6 this season, so it's reasonable to argue about who, by January, will be #s 7-9 [and thus part of the rotation], and who #s 10-12 [and thus mostly not, save for blowouts]. One thing that would muddle predictions about mpg would be if each [i.e., every one] of #s 7-12 bring enough to justify their playing substantial minutes in some games. In which unusual-for-K-case, Duke would display a 10-11 man rotation.

Unlikely, but not impossible, given this particular mixture of players. After all, among the things we know about K, these 2: (a) he settles on an 8-man-rotation, at most; (b) he's flexible, and molds his team according to the actual players on the team.

[lotusland]

I don't see Marshall redshirting; I don't think we're as deep inside as others seem to think. MP1 and MP2 are still pretty foul-prone. Hairston is undersized to guard the 5 and barely has more experience than Marshall. So I think we'll see MP3 get some playing time, and even if it's just a few minutes here and there it'd be a reason not to redshirt. Also there's the whole factor of getting to play with his brothers.


Well it's pure speculation but I think Marshall is 12th in the rotation so i doubt he plays much this year. If one of the font court players got hurt I'd expect more minutes for Murphy and/or SG instead of Marshall.

[sagegrouse]

Well it's pure speculation but I think Marshall is 12th in the rotation so i doubt he plays much this year. If one of the font court players got hurt I'd expect more minutes for Murphy and/or SG instead of Marshall.

Lessee.... Miles with four fouls at the 12 minute mark in 2H. Mason the same. Kelly has three. I dunno, it looks like Marshall could get some time.

Stats for the Blue-White game: in 24 minutes, Miles had five fouls; Mason had four; and Ryan had three.

Sagegrouse

[Duke of Nashville]

Yes, see this week's football injury report thread. Snead hasn't played a down this year due to his injured foot, which is now healed. He wants to play, but with less than half the season left, and no running backs recruited in this year's class, the coaches would really like to stagger his class (he's a sophomore) and get him for an extra year. He's got great speed and is a breakaway runner - he can be a star in this league! And please note that I put Snead (football) in this obviously basketball thread as a point of humor; I don't think any of our big men are going to redshirt this year, but like with recruiting, I'll believe it when I see it. :cool:

HaHa. Trust me we are on the same page....maybe not the right thread. Let me digress for a moment... I beleive he can be a star too! His physical set matches up with Givens from Wake Forest (Givens 6'0 195 Snead 5'9 185) We don't have many athletes like that on the field and would love to see a Redshirt Sophomore tag for Snead on the roster.... Anyway back on topic.

The main reason why I really don't see Marshall redshirting is because of what people have said about his motor. I can see Marshall getting some good PT when our other bigs may need a kick in the butt to get going on a bad night...a la Tyler last year on the defensive end. It may be a card K might want to hold up his sleeve.

Also, Sagegrouse's point is right on target.

Go Duke!

[lotusland]

Lessee.... Miles with four fouls at the 12 minute mark in 2H. Mason the same. Kelly has three. I dunno, it looks like Marshall could get some time.

Stats for the Blue-White game: in 24 minutes, Miles had five fouls; Mason had four; and Ryan had three.

Sagegrouse

I doubt MP1, MP2 and RK all foul out in the same game with meaningful minutes remaining. It could happen but probably not more than once. As long as we have one 6'10 guy available I bet we play Josh, SG or Murphy at 4 before MP3 gets any burn.

How often has Duke even had 3 guys over 6'10 much less 4? It's hard to argue that the 4th guy fills a "need" IMO.

[Kedsy]

It wasn't meant to be an issue just a topic of conversation.

Yes, I understand and my comment wasn't aimed at you. A lot of people are mentioning potential redshirts, including some among the press. But I don't think the speculation is based on what's happening in real life.

Having said that, if airowe implies they're considering a redshirt for Marshall, then maybe I'm wrong.

[Bluedog]

We'll know Saturday night ... any player who plays even one second in the exhibition game will not be eligible to redshirt.

Freshmen are allowed to play in exhibition games and still retain redshirt eligibility. Notre Dame thought the all players could play in exhibitions and retain redshirt capability, but sophomores, juniors, and seniors aren't allowed. They made that mistake with Tim Abromaitis his sophomore year, but appealed to the NCAA for a fifth year and were granted it - although he's serving a four game suspension for the upcoming season.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2011-10-11/notre-dames-tim-abromaitis-to-be-allowed-to-play-in-2011-12


The NCAA allows freshmen to play exhibition games and then spend the rest of the year as a redshirt—but not sophomores, juniors or seniors. The Notre Dame coaches misunderstood the rule and didn’t learn of their mistake until well into Abromaitis’ redshirt season.

So, the debate can rage on past Saturday night. :)

[Troublemaker]

I agree with this, but want to point out what is surely a logical extension of this prediction, should it come true: it means K will use a legitimate 9-man rotation.

Inside: MP1, MP2, Kelly = 75-80 mpg, with mop-up minutes/DNP for JH and MP3
Perimeter: SC, AD, AR = ~90 mpg, leaving 30-32 mpg to be roughly equally split among 3 of these 4: TT, AM, QC, MG. Most likely MG slips down.

I could be persuaded that by late season, either TT or QC will lose minutes to the other, which would, in turn, mean K goes back to an 8-man rotation, which might or might not include QC. And if not, QC doesn't quite average double-figure mpg. But QC redshirt, no. He'll play some, and someday soon enough be a star.

It's also possible, if unlikely, that MG's defense could prove more valuable than AM's all-around game, in which case AM doesn't average double figure.

There seems a clear top-6 this season, so it's reasonable to argue about who, by January, will be #s 7-9 [and thus part of the rotation], and who #s 10-12 [and thus mostly not, save for blowouts]. One thing that would muddle predictions about mpg would be if each [i.e., every one] of #s 7-12 bring enough to justify their playing substantial minutes in some games. In which unusual-for-K-case, Duke would display a 10-11 man rotation.

Unlikely, but not impossible, given this particular mixture of players. After all, among the things we know about K, these 2: (a) he settles on an 8-man-rotation, at most; (b) he's flexible, and molds his team according to the actual players on the team.

Agreed. In competitive games, I expect an 8-man rotation with the bench consisting of MP2, Murphy, and Thornton (although a swap of Kelly for MP2 is possible, of course).

And like others, I don't really expect a redshirt to happen given Coach K's history of not using it. MP3 is the longshot possibility but even he will have a "role" as the center during mop-up duty whenever Duke blows out a team. The mop-up lineup: Fr Cook, Fr Gbinije, Fr Murphy, So Hairston, Fr Plumlee.

[UrinalCake]

Let's say we're playing UNC and both Plumlees have two fouls with eight minutes left in the first half. While I hope this never happens, it wouldn't be a shock to me if it did. In this case would you prefer

a.) Kelly guards Zeller, MG or AM guards Henson, Dawkins guards Barnes
b.) MP3 guards Zeller, Kelly guards Henson, Dawkins or MG/AM guards Barnes.

Neither of these is a particularly great scenario, and we'd probably do a little of both. I understand that UNC has the deepest frontcourt in the country and is far from a typical opponent, but my point is that it's not completely unforeseeable that we could need MP3 to play some minutes. If we find ourselves in the above situation and he's been redshirted so he's not even available, on the off chance that he decides to stay for a fifth year, then that just wouldn't make any sense to me.

[lotusland]

Let's say we're playing UNC and both Plumlees have two fouls with eight minutes left in the first half. While I hope this never happens, it wouldn't be a shock to me if it did. In this case would you prefer

a.) Kelly guards Zeller, MG or AM guards Henson, Dawkins guards Barnes
b.) MP3 guards Zeller, Kelly guards Henson, Dawkins or MG/AM guards Barnes.

Neither of these is a particularly great scenario, and we'd probably do a little of both. I understand that UNC has the deepest frontcourt in the country and is far from a typical opponent, but my point is that it's not completely unforeseeable that we could need MP3 to play some minutes. If we find ourselves in the above situation and he's been redshirted so he's not even available, on the off chance that he decides to stay for a fifth year, then that just wouldn't make any sense to me.

I would not surprise me if Marshall sat during that scenario even if he were available. We're basically trying to steal a few minutes so I could see K letting one big play with 2 fouls or going with Josh at 4 or even one of AM or MG at 4. UNC can shoot over you as good as anyone but they also have an annoying habit on getting wide open dunks if your bigs don't rotate quickly and appropriately. I would rather Henson shoot over Josh than have MP3 watching him dunk it. I’m not saying that Marshall won’t be ready to play D because I have no idea but my point is that the tallest guy is not always the best defender and we’ve seen Coach K choose to go small before in similar situations.

[CameronBornAndBred]

MP3 didn't even take off his sweats last night, so that points pretty well to redshirting. I met him early in the morning as we set up our tailgate, and he was all smiles. In fact, he's been all smiles every time I met him, hr has a great attitude. If my brain hadn't been soggy and cold I would have loved to think to ask him about the redshirt, but it was and I didn't.

[jimsumner]

MP3 didn't even take off his sweats last night, so that points pretty well to redshirting. I.

I wouldn't make that assumption. It could just mean that K hasn't yet made up his mind. If Marshall plays, he can't redshirt. But not playing doesn't preclude playing down the line.

As an aside, what an absurd rule. An exhibition game is designed to help a team figure out things without the game actually counting. So, why not allow a potential redshirt to play and thus enable the team to better make that decision? The game doesn't count. So, why should it count? If you know what I mean.

[Kedsy]

I wouldn't make that assumption. It could just mean that K hasn't yet made up his mind. If Marshall plays, he can't redshirt. But not playing doesn't preclude playing down the line.

As an aside, what an absurd rule. An exhibition game is designed to help a team figure out things without the game actually counting. So, why not allow a potential redshirt to play and thus enable the team to better make that decision? The game doesn't count. So, why should it count? If you know what I mean.

I thought freshmen were allowed to play in exhibition games and then redshirt, but not sophomores, juniors, and seniors. Is that not right?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I thought freshmen were allowed to play in exhibition games and then redshirt, but not sophomores, juniors, and seniors. Is that not right?
That's what someone above said.

[budwom]

The analysis seems pretty basic to me:

As long as MP1, MP2 and Kelly stay healthy, we're going to be just fine at the two big man positions.

Therefore, it comes down to whether MP3 will be of more benefit playing minimal minutes this year, OR
would he be more valuable as a fifth year senior four years hence. (Remember The Zoub.)

Barring injury to others, I'd be stunned if MP3 averaged more than a minute or two per game this year, so a redshirt would seem to make obvious sense.

[Devilsfan]

Let's recruit and SIGN ready to play athletes.

[uh_no]

Let's recruit and SIGN ready to play athletes.

like zoubek and nolan and lance....

[jimsumner]

Let's recruit and SIGN ready to play athletes.

Duke has had a fair amount of success over the years with players who took some time to develop.
Which of these players would you rather not have signed?


John Smith; 91 minutes played as a freshman
Brian Davis; 244 mp as a freshman
Marty Clark,; 104 mp as a freshman, 268 as a sophomore
Kenny Blakeney; 175 mp as a redshirt freshman
Eric Meek, 143 freshman
Greg Newton, 115 freshman
Carmen Wallace, 45 freshman
Nate James, 144 freshman
Casey Sanders, 144 freshman
Lee Melchionni 71 freshman
David McClure, 184 freshman
Brian Zoubek, 235 freshman
Miles Plumlee, 165 freshman
Ryan Kelly, 227 freshman


Were any of these players ready-to-play freshmen? Yet, all eventually became players of consequence for Duke, players who helped Duke win championships. Why would we assume that Marshall Plumlee isn't capable of joining that list?

[JimBD]

Waste of a perfectly good shirt, unless you expect any of these guys to be students at Duke for 5 years. I would assume that the plan is to either graduate by the end of the fourth year or be in the NBA by then.

[jimsumner]

As I've stated elsewhere, K has a strong inclination to not redshirt. Matt Christensen was Duke's last non-injury redshirt of a recruited player and those circumstances were fairly unusual. So, I think the default is no redshirt.

Let me throw another variable into the mix. Duke hopes to know something about Parker and McGary sometime in the next week. Duke won't know for sure about Mason and the NBA until later.

Does this impact any decision on Marshall? Let's posit a worst-case scenario, in which Mason goes pro and Duke does not sign a big. That would leave a 4/5 rotation next season of Kelly, Hairston, Marshall and some Murphy at the 4. Would Marshall be more effective as a sophomore rather than a redshirt freshman, even if the difference is only a 100 or so mop-up minutes?

[johnb]

...Let's posit a worst-case scenario, in which Mason goes pro and Duke does not sign a big. That would leave a 4/5 rotation next season of Kelly, Hairston, Marshall and some Murphy at the 4. Would Marshall be more effective as a sophomore rather than a redshirt freshman, even if the difference is only a 100 or so mop-up minutes?

I think that's the key issue. If I'm football coach at Oklahoma or Alabama and have the equivalent of MP3 (a four star recruit with a whole bunch of previously-recruited 4 and 5 star recruits in front of him, including an NFL-ready starter, which is the case for most of their starters), i'd probably red shirt him as a lineman but let him play as a 4th string skills player. A 6'4" 280 pounder can gain a lot of strength and size in a year away from the gladiator pit and then be ready to get in their rotation. A 5'11" wide receiver is probably best getting the reps, and may develop more quickly than I expect. But all of basketball is akin to being a wide receiver aside from the occasional player who has a log ways to go to grow into their unusually long bodies--and duke hasn't needed to recruit projects for quite a while, and mp3 is hardly a project.

Yes, it would've been nice to have had Zoubs back for a 5th year, and a year off would likely have allowed him to resolve the nagging injuries that slowed him so much for 3 years. I don't think the staff recognized the extent of those injuries, however, or they would've red shirted him. That simply isn't mp3's situation, and it's not like he isn't ready to participate in college basketball. And, anyway, do you think they can really give up the photo op of all 3 brothers playing in the same game? I'd bet the photo will be hung in Cameron before Miles graduates.

[lotusland]

As I've stated elsewhere, K has a strong inclination to not redshirt. Matt Christensen was Duke's last non-injury redshirt of a recruited player and those circumstances were fairly unusual. So, I think the default is no redshirt.

Let me throw another variable into the mix. Duke hopes to know something about Parker and McGary sometime in the next week. Duke won't know for sure about Mason and the NBA until later.

Does this impact any decision on Marshall? Let's posit a worst-case scenario, in which Mason goes pro and Duke does not sign a big. That would leave a 4/5 rotation next season of Kelly, Hairston, Marshall and some Murphy at the 4. Would Marshall be more effective as a sophomore rather than a redshirt freshman, even if the difference is only a 100 or so mop-up minutes?

I'd rather have a red-shirt Freshman next year with a 5th year Senior down the road than a Sophomore with garbage time experience. You get a year of practice either way and how useful are garbage minutes anyway? I think MP3 probably uses all 4-years of eligibility either way. But that said, it comes down to his choice. If he wants to compete for minutes this year rather than taking a year to develope in practice only then I think you gotta let him play.

As far as MP2 goes I think if he's a guaranteed first rounder this year he needs to go. He may still have some value to the Pros for "potential" after his Junior year but not so much as a Senior. It seems like the only way to improve draft position as a senior is to have a break out year like Kemba Walker. But I guess that will be a thread for April and May...

[Kedsy]

It seems like the only way to improve draft position as a senior is to have a break out year like Kemba Walker.

Except Kemba Walker was only a junior.

[lotusland]

Except Kemba Walker was only a junior.
That explains why he only had time to read 1 book.

[ACCBBallFan]

To me what trumps a red-shirt is having all three Plumlees making history on floor together on Miles' senior night.

There is ample time to recruit centers who will be as formidable as Marshall will be in 5 years.

[Acymetric]

To me what trumps a red-shirt is having all three Plumlees making history on floor together on Miles' senior night.

There is ample time to recruit centers who will be as formidable as Marshall will be in 5 years.

Although I understand it can't be a deciding factor...the chance to have all three brothers playing for the same college (practicing doesn't carry the same weight) is pretty cool. Only redshirt Marshall if he is 99% sure he will stay 5 years; otherwise it is a waste.

[Devilsfan]

I think it will be a silent redshirt of MPIII. I don't think you will see all three brothers on the court at once this year as K only plays those that are "ready to play" and have earned playing time.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I think it will be a silent redshirt of MPIII. I don't think you will see all three brothers on the court at once this year as K only plays those that are "ready to play" and have earned playing time.
What will be the most telling scene is when Duke is up by a gajillion against someone, and Zafirovsky comes in while Marshall sits.

[jimsumner]

What will be the most telling scene is when Duke is up by a gajillion against someone, and Zafirovsky comes in while Marshall sits.

That opportunity should come tomorrow. Shaw isn't very good.

[stillcrazie]

While I hope for great things from Marshall, we don't yet know the pace of his development. Obviously we don't know Parker's either, but having more guys on the roster gives us a better chance of having at least one ready to contribute.

Personally, I think Parker is more important for 2013 than 2012. We'll still have Ryan and possibly Mason next year, but they're both gone afterwards. Even in the best case scenario for Marshall, I don't think he'll be playing 40 minutes a game as a junior. And while I like Josh and Alex, I'm not eager to see either of them playing center while Marshall is out. We could get Noel Nerlens or Jabari Parker in the 2013 class, but that isn't guaranteed. One on the team is worth two on the recruitment board, to mangle a metaphor.

Is Marshall redshirting? I had not seen this.

[Dukeface88]

Is Marshall redshirting? I had not seen this.

I was responding to the general "we'll have Marshall" point. I have no idea whether he's actually redshirting.

[MCFinARL]

I was responding to the general "we'll have Marshall" point. I have no idea whether he's actually redshirting.

I seem to recall that someone asked Coach K about this after Marshall did not appear in the exhibition games and he said that no decision has been made to redshirt him--but since I don't know the exact words, I'm not sure whether he meant that Marshall would definitely not be redshirted or whether he meant that the question was still open.

If they keep him on the active roster but don't play him, can he be redshirted retroactively? This might be a good strategy if they want to keep him available in case of injury to another big. But I don't know whether, in the case of a non-injury-related redshirt, the rules require a clear declaration early on.

[JasonEvans]

I seem to recall that someone asked Coach K about this after Marshall did not appear in the exhibition games and he said that no decision has been made to redshirt him--but since I don't know the exact words, I'm not sure whether he meant that Marshall would definitely not be redshirted or whether he meant that the question was still open.

If they keep him on the active roster but don't play him, can he be redshirted retroactively? This might be a good strategy if they want to keep him available in case of injury to another big. But I don't know whether, in the case of a non-injury-related redshirt, the rules require a clear declaration early on.

I may be wrong, but my understanding of the redshirt rule is as follows --

You can practice and sit on the bench, but if you go into any game, your redshirt is blown...

...Unless you are applying for a medical redshirt. In the case of a medical redshirt, so long as you have not played in more than 15% of your team's games (generally about 6 games), you can apply for a medical redshirt and get the year of eligibility back.

Seeing as Marshall is not a medical redshirt candidate, Duke must be careful about even playing him in these exhibition games. If he plays, his voluntary redshirt would be blown. But, there is nothing to prevent him from sitting on the bench and practicing.

Duke has not made any announcement about Marshall and they don't have to. There is no time limit on deciding these things. He could sit on the bench all through January and then Duke could decide to blow out his redshirt and start playing him in February. Though that is very rarely done for obvious reasons.

-Jason "it sure seems like they are aiming to redshirt him" Evans

[superdave]

I may be wrong, but my understanding of the redshirt rule is as follows --

You can practice and sit on the bench, but if you go into any game, your redshirt is blown...

...Unless you are applying for a medical redshirt. In the case of a medical redshirt, so long as you have not played in more than 15% of your team's games (generally about 6 games), you can apply for a medical redshirt and get the year of eligibility back.

Seeing as Marshall is not a medical redshirt candidate, Duke must be careful about even playing him in these exhibition games. If he plays, his voluntary redshirt would be blown. But, there is nothing to prevent him from sitting on the bench and practicing.

Duke has not made any announcement about Marshall and they don't have to. There is no time limit on deciding these things. He could sit on the bench all through January and then Duke could decide to blow out his redshirt and start playing him in February. Though that is very rarely done for obvious reasons.

-Jason "it sure seems like they are aiming to redshirt him" Evans

Yes it does. With three experienced guys splitting the 4/5 rotation, and with Josh Hairston grabbing a few minutes at the 4, I think we're set for this year unless someone gets injured.

But I also like the few things I've read about Marshall getting after his brothers in practice. It sounds like the three Plumlees have been duking it out behind the scenes.

Super "Pun Intended" Dave

[94duke]

I may be wrong, but my understanding of the redshirt rule is as follows --

You can practice and sit on the bench, but if you go into any game, your redshirt is blown...

...Unless you are applying for a medical redshirt. In the case of a medical redshirt, so long as you have not played in more than 15% of your team's games (generally about 6 games), you can apply for a medical redshirt and get the year of eligibility back.

Seeing as Marshall is not a medical redshirt candidate, Duke must be careful about even playing him in these exhibition games. If he plays, his voluntary redshirt would be blown. But, there is nothing to prevent him from sitting on the bench and practicing.

Duke has not made any announcement about Marshall and they don't have to. There is no time limit on deciding these things. He could sit on the bench all through January and then Duke could decide to blow out his redshirt and start playing him in February. Though that is very rarely done for obvious reasons.

-Jason "it sure seems like they are aiming to redshirt him" Evans

How are these last two exhibition games different from the overseas exhibition games? Didn't Marshall play in some of them?

[Kedsy]

Seeing as Marshall is not a medical redshirt candidate, Duke must be careful about even playing him in these exhibition games. If he plays, his voluntary redshirt would be blown.

There seems to be conflicting information about this. Someone said freshmen are allowed to play in the exhibition games and still redshirt. And I thought I read that elsewhere as well, but I'm not certain.

Not that it matters anymore because the exhibition games are finished, but is it true or untrue?

[jimsumner]

I seem to recall that someone asked Coach K about this after Marshall did not appear in the exhibition games and he said that no decision has been made to redshirt him--but since I don't know the exact words, I'm not sure whether he meant that Marshall would definitely not be redshirted or whether he meant that the question was still open.

If they keep him on the active roster but don't play him, can he be redshirted retroactively? This might be a good strategy if they want to keep him available in case of injury to another big. But I don't know whether, in the case of a non-injury-related redshirt, the rules require a clear declaration early on.

Actually, I asked K if a decision had been made on Marshall. K's response was that no decision had been made and one did not have to be made.

Obviously, K was being a bit disingenous. If a decision had been made to play Marshall, he would be playing. If he doesn't play, he can play later on. If he does play, he can't be redshirted later on (barring injury).

If he doesn't play a second, Duke doesn't have to file for a redshirt or ask for a redshirt or announce a redshirt or anything else. I suspect we won't see Marshall this season unless there are significant injuries to the 4/5 rotation or he demonstrates in practice a clear superiority over the other options (not likely).

Call it insurance.

Note that Duke did this a few years ago with walk-on Jordan Davidson. He practiced and dressed out for every game. He just didn't play. Likewise with Todd Z as a freshman. There was no announcement. They just didn't play.

[ChillinDuke]

If he doesn't play a second, Duke doesn't have to file for a redshirt or ask for a redshirt or announce a redshirt or anything else. I suspect we won't see Marshall this season unless there are significant injuries to the 4/5 rotation or he demonstrates in practice a clear superiority over the other options (not likely).

Call it insurance.

Note that Duke did this a few years ago with walk-on Jordan Davidson. He practiced and dressed out for every game. He just didn't play. Likewise with Todd Z as a freshman. There was no announcement. They just didn't play.

Jim, I'm confused. So are you saying they would just use up his freshman year? Jordan and Todd were walk-ons, no? Marshall is obviously a recruited scholarship player. Clearly, K wouldn't want to just burn his recruited player's freshman year. A redshirt would be filed at some point if it was decided he wouldn't play. Am I misunderstanding?

- Chillin

[superdave]

Jim, I'm confused. So are you saying they would just use up his freshman year? Jordan and Todd were walk-ons, no? Marshall is obviously a recruited scholarship player. Clearly, K wouldn't want to just burn his recruited player's freshman year. A redshirt would be filed at some point if it was decided he wouldn't play. Am I misunderstanding?

- Chillin

I think what Jim is saying is that most likely Marshall wont play this season (barring an injury at the 4/5 spots) and will be redshirted but that there wont be a formal announcement forthcoming.

[SCMatt33]

A few notes to clear up on the medical redshift (even though it's not really relevant). I believe that a player can play in 25% of the games, as I seem to remember 8 games as the cutoff point for basketball. The second is that none of those games can be past the halfway point of the year. I Think most people intuitively assume the second one, but it's worth stating anyway.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Note that Duke did this a few years ago with walk-on Jordan Davidson. He practiced and dressed out for every game. He just didn't play. Likewise with Todd Z as a freshman. There was no announcement. They just didn't play.

There is a pretty big difference between Jordan Davidson & Todd Z AND Marshall Plumlee - a McDonald's All-American. Jordan Davidson and Todd Z were/are never expected to be difference-makers down the line. Marshall Plumlee is.

I think the red-shirt issue is an absolutely interesting one. I agree that Marshall is indeed more of an insurance policy in case (God forbid) something happens to the MP1/MP2/RK line-up. But - and I'm not sure we need this - Marshall is 5 fouls, and that is always useful.

[gumbomoop]

I think what Jim is saying is that most likely Marshall wont play this season (barring an injury at the 4/5 spots) and will be redshirted but that there wont be a formal announcement forthcoming.

I also think this is what Jim is saying. I'd also add/repeat this from his post, for part of the confusion about the "rule" for redshirting is the issue of whether Duke must "file" a redshirt-intent [or some such thing] re Marshall.

Jim said.....


If he doesn't play a second, Duke doesn't have to file for a redshirt or ask for a redshirt or announce a redshirt or anything else.

[jimsumner]

I also think this is what Jim is saying. I'd also add/repeat this from his post, for part of the confusion about the "rule" for redshirting is the issue of whether Duke must "file" a redshirt-intent [or some such thing] re Marshall.

Jim said.....

Correct. If he doesn't play a second this season, then Marshall Plumlee will have four years of eligibility remaining. There's no form to fill out.

[Duvall]

Correct. If he doesn't play a second this season, then Marshall Plumlee will have four years of eligibility remaining. There's no form to fill out.

How long would Plumlee have to use those four years of eligibility? Would Marshall's participation in practices and team activities start his five-year clock?

[JasonEvans]

How long would Plumlee have to use those four years of eligibility? Would Marshall's participation in practices and team activities start his five-year clock?

The moment you start taking classes as a full-time student, your 5-year clock starts. Marshall's clock started a couple months ago. The only thing that can stop/pause the clock is withdrawing from school to serve in the military or going on a Mormon mission.

-Jason "hope that clears it up-- and thanks to the person who corrected me on the 15% vs 25% for the medical redshirt" Evans

[jimsumner]

The moment you start taking classes as a full-time student, your 5-year clock starts. Marshall's clock started a couple months ago. The only thing that can stop/pause the clock is withdrawing from school to serve in the military or going on a Mormon mission.

-Jason "hope that clears it up-- and thanks to the person who corrected me on the 15% vs 25% for the medical redshirt" Evans

One of the arguments against Marshall taking a non-injury redshirt, is that it precludes his taking a medical redshirt somewhere down the line, should circumstances dictate. This applies to everyone of course. An example is Duke football player Jack Farrell. Farrell sat out 2009, his freshman season. He played last season as a redshirt freshman. He was injured in Duke's third game this season and is out for the year. But he'll still be a junior next season. The injury redshirt option disappeared when he didn't play as a freshman. He still only has five seasons to complete four seasons of competition.

Injury redshirts aren't that common in men's hoops but it does happen. Trajan Langdon, Nate James and Nick Horvath had fifth years because of injuries.

[gam7]

One of the arguments against Marshall taking a non-injury redshirt, is that it precludes his taking a medical redshirt somewhere down the line, should circumstances dictate. This applies to everyone of course. An example is Duke football player Jack Farrell. Farrell sat out 2009, his freshman season. He played last season as a redshirt freshman. He was injured in Duke's third game this season and is out for the year. But he'll still be a junior next season. The injury redshirt option disappeared when he didn't play as a freshman. He still only has five seasons to complete four seasons of competition.

Injury redshirts aren't that common in men's hoops but it does happen. Trajan Langdon, Nate James and Nick Horvath had fifth years because of injuries.

This argument doesn't make sense to me. I think everyone can agree that, even if not redshirted, Marshall almost certainlty will not play any meaningful minutes this season (if Miles were to get hurt, we'd play Mason and Ryan, even though neither is a true center, before we would use Marshall). So, if we do not redshirt him this year, and then he uses a medical redshirt later on (meaning two full years of no meaningful minutes while only losing one year of eligibility), he is in the exact same position as if he were to non-med redshirt this year and then lose a full year to injury.

Having said that, I am not in favor of his redshirting this year. I just don't think the argument above makes any sense.

[roywhite]

This argument doesn't make sense to me. I think everyone can agree that, even if not redshirted, Marshall almost certainlty will not play any meaningful minutes this season (if Miles were to get hurt, we'd play Mason and Ryan, even though neither is a true center, before we would use Marshall). So, if we do not redshirt him this year, and then he uses a medical redshirt later on (meaning two full years of no meaningful minutes while only losing one year of eligibility), he is in the exact same position as if he were to non-med redshirt this year and then lose a full year to injury.

Having said that, I am not in favor of his redshirting this year. I just don't think the argument above makes any sense.

On the issue of redshirting under Coach K, there are two instances I can recall where it may have been a mistake not to redshirt a freshman player:

1. Erik Meek, coming off an accident in the summer, played 143 minutes in 1991-92 (a team that obviously had plenty of talent)
He became a productive inside player by his 4th year, and his redshirt senior year would have been 1995-96 on a team that could have really used him.

2. Lee Melchionni played 71 minutes on the 2002-03 team; he would have been nice to have around on the 2006-07 team

Of course, that's all in retrospect, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Coach K redshirt Marshall this year.

[gam7]

On the issue of redshirting under Coach K, there are two instances I can recall where it may have been a mistake not to redshirt a freshman player:

1. Erik Meek, coming off an accident in the summer, played 143 minutes in 1991-92 (a team that obviously had plenty of talent)
He became a productive inside player by his 4th year, and his redshirt senior year would have been 1995-96 on a team that could have really used him.

2. Lee Melchionni played 71 minutes on the 2002-03 team; he would have been nice to have around on the 2006-07 team

Of course, that's all in retrospect, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Coach K redshirt Marshall this year.

Moderators, I propose moving the redshirt discussion to its own thread.

Roy, these are good examples. I am opposed to redshirting him for a couple of prospective, rather than retrospective, reasons. First of all, I was not privy to the recruiting pitch our staff gave Marshall, but I am guessing that the possibility of Marshall's redshirting during the only year in which he'd have an opportunity to play with both of his brothers was not discussed much, if at all (if someone has info to the contrary, I stand corrected). I suspect that the discussion was along the lines of Marshall having an opportunity to earn his minutes and if he earns them, he would get them. Applying a non-med redshirt essentially is saying, "we are not going to give you an opportunity to earn minutes this year" (although an obvious counter argument is that they would be putting him in a position to earn more minutes four years down the road).

A second reason I oppose the redshirt is that I think it could make Duke vulnerable to negative recruiting from other schools who might argue to future recruits: "Look, you could go to Duke as an All-American and they could still end up redshirting you, whereas we have never done that before and won't do that to you now."

Third, in the eyes of big guys we are recruiting now (Tony Parker and Okafor), my guess is that if they were asked the question, they would prefer that Marshall not redshirt. Redshirting would put Marshall in Tony Parker's class and both anticipate playing the 5. In Okafor's situation, I'd imagine that he'd prefer to see a senior (in Marshall) and a junior (in Parker) ahead of him at his position, rather than two juniors.

[jimsumner]

This argument doesn't make sense to me. I think everyone can agree that, even if not redshirted, Marshall almost certainlty will not play any meaningful minutes this season (if Miles were to get hurt, we'd play Mason and Ryan, even though neither is a true center, before we would use Marshall). So, if we do not redshirt him this year, and then he uses a medical redshirt later on (meaning two full years of no meaningful minutes while only losing one year of eligibility), he is in the exact same position as if he were to non-med redshirt this year and then lose a full year to injury.

Having said that, I am not in favor of his redshirting this year. I just don't think the argument above makes any sense.

You're right. It doesn't make any sense. As long as you assume that redshirting this season and playing but not redshirting are exactly the same thing.

That's the part that doesn't make any sense to me.

[UrinalCake]

Moderators, I propose moving the redshirt discussion to its own thread.

Like maybe this one http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?26361-Redshirt-anyone&highlight=redshirt

A lot of these issues have already been discussed.