FB: Wake Forest 24, Duke 23

[awhom111]

Of the bad streaks that Duke Football has collected over the years, the one against Wake has to be one of the most frustrating. Some of the recent losses have happened in extremely painful and unusual ways.

Here is the list of broadcast affiliates for the ACC Network this weekend:
http://www.theacc.com/live/2011-acc-football-match-center-wake-forest-at-duke.html

Check the list if you couldn't get the past Duke game on the ACC Network, because some affiliates have been added. Those include:
Macon, Georgia
Des Moines, Iowa
Hagerstown, Maryland
Hattiesburg, Mississippi
Abilene, Texas
San Angelo, Texas

[OldPhiKap]

We are WAY overdue to win this game. GO DUKE!!!!!

[OldPhiKap]

Okay, next play. Time to focus on the Deacs. We have been overdue to win this one, with so many close games. Come on Devils, get it to 4-4!!!!

[DukeSean]

I am totally on board with you, would love to see us rebound and take out Wake after so many heartbreaking losses in years recent, but I'd much rather prefer 4-3 ;)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif Let's Go DUKE! Beat Wake! Go To Hell carolina! 9F! http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif http://www.crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif

[burnspbesq]

Would be awfully nice if we could beat Wake on Thursday night as well as Saturday afternoon.

[mkline09]

Okay 11 years is enough. Time to beat the Deacons. No more missed field goals that cost games, or late drives for that matter. Bring the A game like they did against Tulane. Defense needs to forget about FSU and focus on stopping Tanner Price and his weapons. On offense cut down on the mistakes. Desmond Scott showed flashes of his old self and it would be nice to see Thompson get lose once or twice. And when all else fails throw the ball to Conner Vernon. If he wrote a book he should call it "Just give me the damn ball too." He is something to watch when Renfree can get him the ball.

[chrishoke]

No excuses Devils. This is the biggest game of the year. We have to play with a fiery passion.

[CameronBornAndBred]

No excuses Devils. This is the biggest game of the year. We have to play with a fiery passion.
If we lose playing the way we played against Florida State, I will be upset and have valid complaints. If we lose playing the way we did against Tulane and FIU, I will acknowledge that Wake has the better team this year. This is one of the few years that I would be willing to do that; we sure as hell have had and blew our chances previously. I don't think this team will lose due to folding at the end of the game like we have seen.
Cut says this is the best Wake team he has seen, I agree.

"It's been a war every year. I have great respect for Jim Grobe, and I think this may be the best Wake team of the four we've played. Probably is,"
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10271584/

[-bdbd]

I know folks are a bit down about FSU. But don't you just get the sense that this program might be one big win from turning a huge corner?!? Don't know if Wake would qualify - maybe needs to be a ranked opponent - but the best analogy I have is Duke MBB beating UNLV in '91. Yes, I realize that K's program was pretty damn good before then -more than one FF in the preceding few years - but that win escalated Duke MBB to a whole 'nother plateau. I sure would love to see us beat a VPI, Ga Tech, or nearly-ranked NC@CH soon... I think you start winning the occasional ranked opponent game and good things can cascade (recruiting, media coverage, confidence, fans, etc).

Still, just imagine the lift if we DO beat Wake this Saturday.....

Go Duke!

:rolleyes:

[awhom111]

Here is the list of broadcast affiliates for the ACC Network this weekend:
http://www.theacc.com/live/2011-acc-football-match-center-wake-forest-at-duke.html

Check the list if you couldn't get the past Duke game on the ACC Network, because some affiliates have been added. Those include:
Macon, Georgia
Des Moines, Iowa
Hagerstown, Maryland
Hattiesburg, Mississippi
Abilene, Texas
San Angelo, Texas

Here is a repost of the TV information from the other thread. Thanks for posting in it then starting your own thread, OPK ;)!

[Reilly]

Hope this link works:

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205318412&DB_OEM_ID=4200

[devildeac]

1. For richer, for poorer; for better, for worse; in sickness and in health...
2. Duke 45, deacs 38

My older daughter gets married at 5PM Saturday and OPK wished me a good day all around and this plan just might work.
:-))

[DonnyDevil]

Don't worry... my 3 year old son and I will be there. Duke is 5-0 when he is at the game! I decided to take my daughter to her first game last weekend with the 2 of us and we all know what happened... so she is no longer allowed to come to the game! (Just Kidding... kinda) Go Duke!

[OldPhiKap]

1. For richer, for poorer; for better, for worse; in sickness and in health...
2. Duke 45, deacs 38

My older daughter gets married at 5PM Saturday and OPK wished me a good day all around and this plan just might work.
:-))

I'm pulling for your happiness. Oh, and your daughter as well. OPK

[pbc2]

Duke Football Injury Report
October 20, 2011
Vs. Wake Forest

WR Brandon Braxton (head) – Probable
S August Campbell (leg) – Probable

C Dave Harding (leg) – Questionable
C Brian Moore (arm) – Questionable
WR Donovan Varner (leg) – Questionable
CB Johnny Williams (leg) – Questionable

S Lee Butler (leg) – OUT
QB Brandon Connette (upper body) – OUT

TE Jack Farrell (leg) – OUT FOR SEASON
DE Kenny Anunike (leg) – OUT FOR SEASON

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Duke Football Injury Report
October 20, 2011
Vs. Wake Forest

WR Brandon Braxton (head) – Probable
S August Campbell (leg) – Probable

C Dave Harding (leg) – Questionable
C Brian Moore (arm) – Questionable
WR Donovan Varner (leg) – Questionable
CB Johnny Williams (leg) – Questionable

It's nice to see that Matt Daniels has cleared this list entirely, and that Brian Moore has moved "up" from Out to Questionable. Doesn't mean he'll play, but let's hope that both he and Harding can. We know Varner has a hammy problem and that those can be tricky - one wrong tweak and he's lost for weeks, and this is his senior season. Vibes for no wrong tweaks, Dondo! Also noting that neither Scott nor Snead is listed! :cool:

[mkline09]

I thought I'd share my Duke-Wake preview for anyone interested in reading. I know some of you read my blog and I'd love for more of you to as well. Anyway here is the link

http://dukesportsblog.com/2011/10/20/duke-wake-forest-blue-devils-look-to-erase-11-years-of-deacon-domination.aspx

And of course I've picked Duke to win 36-30 for those who just want to get to the good stuff. Anyway enjoy.

[davekay1971]

1. For richer, for poorer; for better, for worse; in sickness and in health...
2. Duke 45, deacs 38

My older daughter gets married at 5PM Saturday and OPK wished me a good day all around and this plan just might work.
:-))

Congratulations...and I hope the "something blue" she has is related to Duke football :-)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Congratulations...and I hope the "something blue" she has is related to Duke football :-)
She's a unc grad, so it will be the wrong color.:eek:

[OldPhiKap]

She's a unc grad, so it will be the wrong color.:eek:

Well, maybe Duke winning will make her feel blue. Not trying to ruin her big day and all, but we've all got priorities in this world. Go Duke!!!!

(Looks like good weather for a game and a wedding!)

[Wander]

Should be a shootout - neither can team has a good pass rush or a good secondary.

[devildeac]

She's a unc grad, so it will be the wrong color.:eek:
Thanks!

Yea, but you should see how many pix we have of her in Duke cheerleading garb from when she was in her formative years. And, those pix WILL be shown in their slide show tonight after the rehearsal dinner. BWAHAHAHA!

And, to stay on topic, I will be watching and perhaps chatting some during the game. devil>deac

[Bob Green]

Congratulations on the wedding! Now on to the really important stuff, how does Duke win?

1. Limit big plays: Duke cannot allow Price and Givens to burn them deep. That means we have to pressure the QB, which means we have to bring the heat at times. When Duke blitzes, the secondary must step up and hold their own. I'm talking about the age old bend but don't break mentality.

2. Take care of the football: Duke is minus two (-2) in Turnover Margin while Wake Forest is plus four (+4). Our margin of error is minimal to non-existent so we cannot give Wake Forest extra offensive possessions. It would be great for Sean Renfree to have extra opportunities so we must win the turnover battle.

3. Time of Possession: Sean Renfree and company must convert 1st downs in order to sustain drives and keep Tanner Price and Chris Givens standing around on the sidelines. The less time those two are on the field the better for Duke.

I expect this game to be a shootout, but we are overdue for a victory against the Demon Deacons so let's make it happen tomorrow. If it comes down to a late field goal attempt, Will Snyderwine is healthy.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Congratulations on the wedding! Now on to the really important stuff, how does Duke win?

1. Limit big plays: Duke cannot allow Price and Givens to burn them deep.

And you know they are going to try very hard, and probably very early, just as FSU did. Wake must have been licking their chops to see the 'Noles light us up like that. My guess is that the secondary has been putting in some extra time this week concentrating on assignments.

[duke79]

I'm a little confused about what the television/internet options are going to be for watching this game. Is it going to be on ESPN3? or available somewhere on the DISH network? (I was able to watch the Florida State game on NESN here in New England).

Any help would be appreciated.

[awhom111]

I'm a little confused about what the television/internet options are going to be for watching this game. Is it going to be on ESPN3? or available somewhere on the DISH network? (I was able to watch the Florida State game on NESN here in New England).

Any help would be appreciated.

Where are you located exactly? The first post on the thread has the local stations that the game will be available on. You can check the list or just post where you live/get your local channels from and we can double check for you. If you do not live in one of the areas with the game on TV you will be able to watch on ESPN3.

[sagegrouse]

Game on Fox/Channel 5 - in DC and Channel 13 in Baltimore. -- sage

[Bob Green]

The game will be carried by ESPN3.

[asbcheeks]

Guess this is the best place to put this.

The Jets signed Eron Riley off the Denver practice squad this week. Should be a great opportunity for Eron, Jets are suddenly pretty thin at WR having traded Derrick Mason away last week. I have high hopes, looking forward to seeing him in green.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Guess this is the best place to put this.

The Jets signed Eron Riley off the Denver practice squad this week. Should be a great opportunity for Eron, Jets are suddenly pretty thin at WR having traded Derrick Mason away last week. I have high hopes, looking forward to seeing him in green.
Thanks for the link...actually I would love to see the mods make this it's own thread. Talk about some perserverance..Eron has been around and stuck around, best of luck to him!

[grossbus]

If we don't get a better pass rush right now, price to givens is going to be repeated often.

[grossbus]

Three passes into the flat for a total of 7 yards. Punt. Drives me nutz.

[TruBlu]

Am I the only one tired of the sideways passing game?

[grossbus]

Am I the only one tired of the sideways passing game?

We have zero incompletions and 30 yards of offense. Might as well punt on first down.

[davekay1971]

Sigh...3rd and 15 when they're backed up to their own end zone and they get 15 yards and 1 inch. Just a killer.

[davekay1971]

Sigh...3rd and 15 when they're backed up to their own end zone and they get 15 yards and 1 inch. Just a killer.

Critical stop on 3rd and 2 then again on 4th and 2. Wake scores again, especially a TD, and it would be a very tough thing for this team to come back in the 2nd half. Now, let's go get on the scoreboard!

Well...never mind.

[jjasper0729]

What happened to stretching the field? How can you expect to win when you don't take a chance for yardage

[u2umark]

He seems confused out there without any playmaking ideas now. Maybe a break with backup QB in will help him see a different perspective. Right now, we are getting demolished by Wake's defense. 3 plays and out? Are you kidding me? Stop with the side passes. Take some risks and throw deep.

[grossbus]

For a team that does not commit penalties, we sure have had a lot and at bad times.

[loran16]

I'm used profanity in the chat, but won't here, but this is ridiculous. At one point, Renfree was 12 for 12 for 40 yards or something. It's not because of defense - Duke's been doing this for weeks. They're afraid to throw downfield.

In fact, "afraid" is the proper word for Duke's offense lately - afraid to the point of insanity. Our defense is not very good, to put it lightly. Despite this, we punt inside their 40, we take the FG rather than try for a TD with 8 seconds left, and we don't let our great QB go deep. Cutcliffe HAS to realize, as ALL OF US have realized, that when the D is bad, and EVERYONE SAYS THAT YOUR BEST CHANCE TO WIN IS A SHOOTOUT, you have to take RISKS.

But Cut is conservative, and the team has fallen behind two weeks in a row because of it. It has to freaking stop.

[arnie]

I'm used profanity in the chat, but won't here, but this is ridiculous. At one point, Renfree was 12 for 12 for 40 yards or something. It's not because of defense - Duke's been doing this for weeks. They're afraid to throw downfield.

In fact, "afraid" is the proper word for Duke's offense lately - afraid to the point of insanity. Our defense is not very good, to put it lightly. Despite this, we punt inside their 40, we take the FG rather than try for a TD with 8 seconds left, and we don't let our great QB go deep. Cutcliffe HAS to realize, as ALL OF US have realized, that when the D is bad, and EVERYONE SAYS THAT YOUR BEST CHANCE TO WIN IS A SHOOTOUT, you have to take RISKS.

But Cut is conservative, and the team has fallen behind two weeks in a row because of it. It has to freaking stop.

You'll be better off changin the channel to the Clemson game and watching them win (hopefully!)- makes for a more enjoyable saturday.

[roywhite]

Am I the only one tired of the sideways passing game?

Great term for what we saw in the 1st half.

Not sure what was the most frustrating:
sideways passing game
Key conversions by Wake
Duke penalties

Ugh.

[A-Tex Devil]

Great term for what we saw in the 1st half.

Not sure what was the most frustrating:
sideways passing game
Key conversions by Wake
Duke penalties

Ugh.

Sideways passing game? What, did we go hire Greg Davis as the new OC?

[grossbus]

Good drive to open half, but only 3 points. Now, can we stop them?

[davekay1971]

Nice stop by our defense. Very nice. Hopefully our offense can come back and kick down the door of that end zone. We do that, this is a ballgame.

[davekay1971]

You'll be better off changin the channel to the Clemson game and watching them win (hopefully!)- makes for a more enjoyable saturday.

I'm flipping back and forth between the two games. Clemson is putting quite the enjoyable hurt on the Cheaters. But don't give up on the Duke game. Once upon a time, with the Duke men's hoops team down at Maryland by 10 with 54 seconds left in the game and our star player in a game-long funk, I turned it off rather than see the Maryland students storm the court.

Never again...

[davekay1971]

Gutsy calls on several plays on that drive. I detested the call to put Boone in on 3rd and goal, didn't like the idea of keeping him in on 4th much better, but it paid off with a touchdown! Duke not just showing signs of life this quarter...they are dominating this quarter!

[grossbus]

Looks to me like they are working on renfree's hip.

[arnie]

I'm flipping back and forth between the two games. Clemson is putting quite the enjoyable hurt on the Cheaters. But don't give up on the Duke game. Once upon a time, with the Duke men's hoops team down at Maryland by 10 with 54 seconds left in the game and our star player in a game-long funk, I turned it off rather than see the Maryland students storm the court.

Never again...

You're right - need a split screen.

[u2umark]

I said it...show wake's defense something different with Boone and it's paying off. Hopefully when Renfree comes back, he would have a fuller grasp of their defense.

[grossbus]

I wanted to go on 4th and goal. A 6 point lead not really that much better than 3.

[duke79]

A TD on that last drive would have been nice. But Duke is looking tough this half. The offensive line is moving the Wake defenders around - unlike last week against Fl. State. Let's hope for a win today !!

[grossbus]

Well, crap. After all that good D, to let that happen.

[jjasper0729]

How do you lose track of the one person you can't lose track of. UGH!

[duke79]

I wanted to go on 4th and goal. A 6 point lead not really that much better than 3.

Always a tough call, but I agree with you here. I guess a 6 point margin takes a field goal out of play, but, now that Wake has scored a TD, it doesn't matter. Furthermore, even if Duke did not score, Wake would be starting out from their own 2-yard line - psychologically a much tougher place to start from rather than from their own 20 or 30 yard line following a kick-off.

[grossbus]

Another sideways throw loses 5. What a downer after such a good half. Bad execution on D and bad plays on O.

[grossbus]

We need throws down the field. No runs.

[duke79]

UGH !! This will be a tough loss to take. Duke could have easily won this game.

[ChillinDuke]

I said it first.

You also said it last.

So frustrating. Ughh.

- Chillin

[grossbus]

Every throw high.

Three missed tackles one that one play gonna kill us.

Should have gone for it on 4th and goal.

[duke79]

Every throw high.

Three missed tackles one that one play gonna kill us.

Should have gone for it on 4th and goal.

Yea, hindsight is always 20/20, but I think would have made more sense to go for it on fourth and goal at the 2-yard line. But, hell, I'm NOT the coach (for good reason).

[365Duke]

Boone gets us back in the game....then we send him back to the bench. Hang this one on the coaching staff (again).

[grossbus]

Renfree ineffective after injury. Probably should have stayed with Boone. Ah, who knows. Another L.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I;m no fair weather fan but this is just becoming unbearable to watch. What a lame effort on the last drive. Just play for the stinking field goal. Two decent running plays. Use your timeouts. Kick it thru the uprights. Play some defense. Man...!

[loran16]

Yea, hindsight is always 20/20, but I think would have made more sense to go for it on fourth and goal at the 2-yard line. But, hell, I'm NOT the coach (for good reason).

FTR, you can check the chat, I advocated going 4th and 1.

Also, "I'm not the coach" is a terrible way to cut off arguments. The Coaches aren't infallible. Cutcliffe is mindblowingly conservative, which works when the D can play well, but the Defense is still poor - our 3rd 3 and out in the 2nd half came after a wide open Wake WR dropped the pass. He should have gone for it, since you succeed over 50% of the time from that distance on a run, and pinning em so deep would ruin their chances of passing.

Just an error, among the many he made in the first half.

[Class of '94]

Boone gets us back in the game....then we send him back to the bench. Hang this one on the coaching staff (again).

I hate to say it but when we didn't go for it and only got the field goal, I knew somehow we were going to shoot ourselves in the foot and lose this game. Boone accounted for 17 of the 23 pts scored by Duke; Reinfree was responsible for only 6pts. Why wouldn't you leave Boone in for the rest of the guy when he looked more effective than Reinfree and Reinfree was hurt. Saying that, the derensive mistake that led to a touchdown in 13 seconds was IMO the play that killed us. If the defense had in worst case kept Wake to a field goal, we still win the game.

[jv001]

Every throw high.

Three missed tackles one that one play gonna kill us. Should have gone for it on 4th and goal.
Poor tackling has been something that's plagued us in the past and on the play you mention it turned out to be a killer. Well not long before we tip it off. GoDuke!

[Bob Green]

This was an especially frustrating loss as we definitely snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. We scored on five straight possessions, the last of the 1st half and the first four of the second half. Unfortunately, three of the five scores were field goals. I do not understand why we didn't take a shot into the end zone at the end of the 1st half when there were eight seconds left on the clock. And on the last field goal, when it was 4th and goal from the one yard line, I believe we should have went for the TD. We were up 20-17 and the field goal didn't make it a two possession game.

I give the team credit for coming back from the 17-0 deficit to take the lead, they could have easily folded up and quit, but they showed a ton of heart and fought back. In the end, giving up the big explosive play was our undoing. Poor tackling by our young defense on the decisive play of the game.

[Greg_Newton]

This was an especially frustrating loss as we definitely snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

It's absolutely astounding and infuriating how we do this every year against Wake in a crucial game.

I give the team a ton of credit for coming from 17-0 to score 23 straight against a good team, but they've lost my attendance for the season. 1 quarter of competing out of 8 isn't enough to justify the hassle and emotional investment.

This seems like a game we "deserved" to win, but really, we didn't. We couldn't score a TD in the fourth from 1st-and-goal on the 5. We couldn't gain 6 yards in 3 plays (not even 1 yard) to get into Snyderwine's range with the game on the lane. We couldn't make a routine open field tackle even given three pathetic shots on the game-winning TD. We benefited from several drive-changing drops and penalties in the second half. We never looked like we believed we were going to win, or that we knew how to.

It's only going to get worse from here, if you look at our schedule; this was the worse of the two teams left that we can compete with. Oh well, at least they kept me invested through CTC this year.

[DukeSean]

And on the last field goal, when it was 4th and goal from the one yard line, I believe we should have went for the TD. We were up 20-17 and the field goal didn't make it a two possession game.


I thought about this a while, and the way our defense was playing at the time, forcing WF to have to get a TD instead of a FG was a good idea. I'm sure we no one figured we'd give up a 66-yard TD. If we failed to get any points at all on that red-zone try, it would have given all the momentum to WF and would have been rather deflating for Duke I think.

These losses against Wake don't get any easier even with all the experience

[arnie]

This was an especially frustrating loss as we definitely snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. We scored on five straight possessions, the last of the 1st half and the first four of the second half. Unfortunately, three of the five scores were field goals. I do not understand why we didn't take a shot into the end zone at the end of the 1st half when there were eight seconds left on the clock. And on the last field goal, when it was 4th and goal from the one yard line, I believe we should have went for the TD. We were up 20-17 and the field goal didn't make it a two possession game.

I give the team credit for coming back from the 17-0 deficit to take the lead, they could have easily folded up and quit, but they showed a ton of heart and fought back. In the end, giving up the big explosive play was our undoing. Poor tackling by our young defense on the decisive play of the game.

The field goal attempt midway in the 4th quarter made no sense at the time and certainly doesn't cut it after thinking about it. Cut seems to motivate the players, has hired coaches that have some semblance of special teams understanding and possibly an offensive philosphy. However, game time play calling and of course recruiting appear to be his big weaknesses

[Bob Green]

I thought about this a while, and the way our defense was playing at the time, forcing WF to have to get a TD instead of a FG was a good idea.

I acknowledge that your point is the conventional approach; however, if we had failed to convert the touchdown, Wake Forest would have been backed up 99 yards away from the goal line. With the way our defense was playing at the time, we could have forced the Demon Deacons to punt from deep in their own territory.

We beat Wake in every statistical category except the one that counts. Duke had more 1st downs, rushing yards, receiving yards and total yards than Wake Forest. We dominated Time of Possession 38 minutes to 22 minutes. Wake Forest scored one more point!

[sagegrouse]

This seems like a game we "deserved" to win, but really, we didn't. We couldn't score a TD in the fourth from 1st-and-goal on the 5. We couldn't gain 6 yards in 3 plays (not even 1 yard) to get into Snyderwine's range with the game on the lane. We couldn't make a routine open field tackle even given three pathetic shots on the game-winning TD. We benefited from several drive-changing drops and penalties in the second half. We never looked like we believed we were going to win, or that we knew how to.



We didn't deserve to win because we got behind at home 17-0 against a team that was our rough equivalent in terms of talent. I mean, 17-0 when Vernon and Renfree were totally healthy? What's going on here? Can we not handle 12:30 kickoffs?

sagegrouse

[CameronBlue]

Boone gets us back in the game....then we send him back to the bench. Hang this one on the coaching staff (again).

Yeah but with Boone on the field there's no mystery. It's going to be a run likely inside the tackles. You may have some success with some misdirection here and there, as Duke did, but it's not a winning strategy in the long run.

Funny, you'd probably get a split opinion on the wisdom of putting in a 2nd qb package, even with Sean's injury. But it's a losing strategy IMO.

[Greg_Newton]

Now for my left-brain's reaction...

-In a game where he should have actually been free to make some plays (due to Wake's nonexistent pass rush), Renfree was a below-average-to-bad QB today, and IMO, the reason we lost. He made numerous bad decisions (checking down for 0-2 yard gains almost every play, forcing it into double-coverage downfield, airing it out inexplicably despite not being pressured), bad throws (sailing passes over receivers' heads, overthrowing guys on long balls, not hitting guys in stride on check-downs and screens, plus a few throws that just weren't even close). If it was because of injury, he shouldn't have been playing. Give Boone a chance if Renfree's not healthy enough to be an effective QB - if that position isn't a strength, we don't have a chance.

-Juwan Thompson had a great game. Hope he's okay.

-Helfet also played well. His two drops were Renfree's fault, and wouldn't have even looked catchable for a less athletic TE.

-Crowder was disappointing. Needed him to step up, and he dropped several balls and didn't look particularly explosive.

-I continue to be baffled as to why Zach Greene sees the field so often. He's been making huge mistakes since garbage time in the Tulane game (although several of them had luckily not resulted in big plays), but it came back to bite us today. In a big way. And who was it that made the worst open-field "tackle" attempt of the year after Greene's dive?

-Would the pass interference call not have stopped the clock (with 8 seconds left in the half)? If not, why did we accept the penalty, if we were going to call the timeout anyway? Not a huge mistake if the penalty in fact would NOT have stopped the clock, but a mistake either way.

-On the 4th-down, long pass that was overturned to lead to Wake's 2nd TD, was the receiver pushed out of bounds? He clearly had been running out of bounds, and it was weird that the ref didn't even address that.


This was a more frustrating game to watch than was Richmond, to me.

[NYC Duke Fan]

Maybe we are just not that good and maybe Cutcliffe is not the right guy. I am not advocating firing him at all, but it is possible that he is not the right person for this job. As an example look at the job that Harbaugh did at Stanford before he went to the pros.

It has been pointed out numerous times that Duke is not Stanfod at least football wise, but once in a while can we get a coach not named Steve Spurrier who can change this program around.

You cannot have a credible program when you lose to a team like Richmond in the first game of the season and at home.

[Bob Green]

And who was it that made the worst open-field "tackle" attempt of the year after Greene's dive?

Ross Cockrell. I'll have to watch the highlights (low lights) to be 100 percent sure and I'm not mentally ready to do that yet, but I'm 99% sure that first Greene, then Cockrell and finally Matt Daniels fail to bring Givens down on the touchdown.

[buddy]

For the second time this year, the coaches failed the players. Kurt Roper needs to be fired now. The object of the game is to move from end zone to end zone, not from sideline to sideline. And what went on at the end of the first half? I thought we took the penalty to save a time out. But instead, we give up yards AND take the time out. I assume Cutcliffe made that decision. He is a veteran coach who has been to bowl games. That was a total brain cramp. I am proud of how the kids played today. They were let down by their coaches. I know Cut took responsibility on his post-game show, but frankly, the way to take responsibility is to change what he has been doing. Duke is now 37-153 since our last bowl appearance, yet we have coaches who call a game as if they are afraid of losing. And as long as they do that, Duke will continue to lose. Cutcliffe was met with a wave of enthusiasm and has received great support, but he is squandering his goodwill by coaching like Carl Franks.

[J.Blink]

Frustrating game. Feels like a particularly bad one because of how darn close we came. Major credit to the team for how they came out of the gates in the second half. Just wish they could have kept it up till the end. A lot of dumb penalties--one particular motion killed me (this has been a continual problem). I noticed Cutcliffe really chewed him (79) out.

Is the problem conservative play calling or Renfree not looking down the field? Seems like Renfree kind of locks in on one guy and telegraphs it the whole time. Into triple coverage?

For what it's worth, I'm with those who wish we would have stuck with Boone near the end. Can't say I understand the decision making on who the QB is.

[Bob Green]

I noticed Cutcliffe really chewed him (79) out.

#79 is fifth year senior Kyle Hill (6'6" 290) who, before the season started, was considered a safe bet to play on Sunday next year. He has had a bunch of false start penalties this year.

[sagegrouse]

Maybe we are just not that good and maybe Cutcliffe is not the right guy. I am not advocating firing him at all, but it is possible that he is not the right person for this job. As an example look at the job that Harbaugh did at Stanford before he went to the pros.

It has been pointed out numerous times that Duke is not Stanfod at least football wise, but once in a while can we get a coach not named Steve Spurrier who can change this program around.

You cannot have a credible program when you lose to a team like Richmond in the first game of the season and at home.

I am as impatient as anyone I know -- about Duke football and everything else. However, I am going to give Cutcliffe 7-10 years to make his mark, because of the hole we were in when he arrived. Just for grins, here is the average number per year of players drafted over the past eleven years:



WF 1.5
BC 1.8
GT 2.3
MD 2.6
ST 2.7
VA 2.8
CL 3.2
NC 3.3
VT 4.5
FS 5.0
MI 6.4


Pretty respectable range from 1.5 players per year for Wake to an impressive 6+ for Miami.

Here's the Duke comparable of players drafted per year: 0.09

That's fewer than ONE PLAYER per TEN YEARS!!!!!

None of the players in those overlooked Duke classes were recruited by Cutcliffe. Now exactly what do we expect him to accomplish in 3-4 years?

sagegrouse

[365Duke]

Yeah but with Boone on the field there's no mystery. It's going to be a run likely inside the tackles. You may have some success with some misdirection here and there, as Duke did, but it's not a winning strategy in the long run.

Funny, you'd probably get a split opinion on the wisdom of putting in a 2nd qb package, even with Sean's injury. But it's a losing strategy IMO.


yet with "no mystery", we scored consistently with Boone in. The reason, IMO, you keep Boone in is because we were playing with a "what do we have to lose" mentality with him in....mystery or not.

[DU82]

For the second time this year, the coaches failed the players. Kurt Roper needs to be fired now. The object of the game is to move from end zone to end zone, not from sideline to sideline. And what went on at the end of the first half? I thought we took the penalty to save a time out. But instead, we give up yards AND take the time out..

We took the penalty so that it was first down, not fourth. In theory, if something happens with the snap, the ball can be spiked and leave time for another attempt. I, along with almost everybody else, assumed that the clock would stop after the penalty, but guess not.

What I didn't understand was why we didn't go for two after the first TD, to cut the lead to three (17-14) which, as it turned out, would have meant a tie score. I also thought at the time that we should have gone for it fourth and goal up 3.

MIA again: students and Herb.

[DU82]

#79 is fifth year senior Kyle Hill (6'6" 290) who, before the season started, was considered a safe bet to play on Sunday next year. He has had a bunch of false start penalties this year.

I believe Moore was back at center for the first time this season, and looked rusty. Many low snaps that took the team out of rythmn, there didn't appear to be the coordination between the center and QB. That caused some of the problems.

[Bob Green]

I believe Moore was back at center for the first time this season, and looked rusty. Many low snaps that took the team out of rythmn, there didn't appear to be the coordination between the center and QB. That caused some of the problems.

Yes, Moore was back at center, but what is the relevance to my post? Hill is the starting left tackle.

[Bob Green]

Yes, Moore was back at center, but what is the relevance to my post? Hill is the starting left tackle.

Never mind, I understand your point now. Duh, I was a little slow on the uptake.

[DU82]

Never mind, I understand your point now. Duh, I was a little slow on the uptake.

I wasn't that clear, to be sure! At least one of the false starts involved most of the line, and Renfree, IIRC. That's the center's fault.

[chrishoke]

So painful.

[buddy]

We took the penalty so that it was first down, not fourth. In theory, if something happens with the snap, the ball can be spiked and leave time for another attempt. I, along with almost everybody else, assumed that the clock would stop after the penalty, but guess not.

Thanks for the explanation. Sitting in the stands (on the other side of the 50), I wasn't aware of the implications for the downs. But even so, if you are going to burn the time out and kick the field goal, why not keep the yards? Having taken the first down, with 8 seconds left, there was time to go into the end zone and then kick. The point of getting first down should have been to run more plays. Again, confused coaching.

Given the time left, I had no problem with going for one and not two. Two is not a given, and if you miss you are virtually compelled to go for two the next time you score. The problem wasn't not going for two--it was having to kick field goals inside the red zone. (Heck, inside the 10 yard line.)

[DownEastDevil]

I was so fed up with the play calling at halftime I thought about leaving. I couldn't believe I made the 160 mile round trip by myself (my wife was fed up from last week) to see the coaches let this team down. All the talk from Cut about opening things up and we settle for 3 with 8 seconds left in the half instead of throwing into the end zone at least once and then not going for a TD on 4th down from the one. Not sure what to think anymore about the coach I have backed all year. I'm sure I will be back next week pulling for the players and wondering about the coaches.

[uh_no]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdMUfuCfUB8

hope this cheers everyone up

[dukeman28428]

I have attended football games for more than 60 years in Wallace Wade and I left today with a very empty and sad feeling for the players and fans. There is no question in my mind that the coaches let the players down today. 8 seconds left in 2nd quarter and we call a time out and kick a field goal. We were behind 17-0 and needed a lift. Easy to throw one pass, take time out and then kick if we have to. I am so upset at our play calling. The short yardage passes, East to West, are not getting us anywhere. With our receivers, why not get agressive like Cut says each week but game day, we don't and are so conservative that it makes me wonder if the coaches are afraid to lose? Why not open it up and have some fun and make it entertaining for the players and fans. It is so painful to have to go through this. Our offense is so predictable. There is no way we should have lost this game or the one to Richmond. I put these losses, and especially today, right on the shoulders of the coaches and Cut has to shake things up and open up our offense and try some different things. A very low time for this Duke fan and I am very sorry for the players that have to endure this.

[wtm001]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdMUfuCfUB8

hope this cheers everyone up

Thanks, I've spent the last hour watching the end of some tournament games. :)

[Sixthman]

I have attended football games for more than 60 years in Wallace Wade and I left today with a very empty and sad feeling for the players and fans. There is no question in my mind that the coaches let the players down today. 8 seconds left in 2nd quarter and we call a time out and kick a field goal. We were behind 17-0 and needed a lift. Easy to throw one pass, take time out and then kick if we have to. I am so upset at our play calling. The short yardage passes, East to West, are not getting us anywhere. With our receivers, why not get agressive like Cut says each week but game day, we don't and are so conservative that it makes me wonder if the coaches are afraid to lose? Why not open it up and have some fun and make it entertaining for the players and fans. It is so painful to have to go through this. Our offense is so predictable. There is no way we should have lost this game or the one to Richmond. I put these losses, and especially today, right on the shoulders of the coaches and Cut has to shake things up and open up our offense and try some different things. A very low time for this Duke fan and I am very sorry for the players that have to endure this.

It is difficult to take exception to anything you say. While I am sure the players and coaches suffer as a result of a loss like this more than a dedicated fan such as yourself, I think your feelings and frustrations are justified. Dedicated fans (and let's be honest, when it comes to Duke football the group of long time dedicated fans is a small one) are a legitimate constituency the care and feeding of which is part of maintaining a successful program. I still look forward to the taste of consistent success. However, some losses are more difficult to swallow than others, and the factors you cite made this a really distasteful day. I am sure some of us have had their fill.

[cspan37421]

I'm glad that I found the game in the 2nd half b/c I probably would not have watched it if I had started in the first half.

There's more than enough blame to go around in losses and this week's installment is no exception.

Our starting QB was pretty inaccurate down the stretch. I understand he was injured previously, but it stands to reason that if THAT was the reason he was inaccurate, one should look to the bench for someone who could be more accurate - specifically, not overthrowing the receivers left and right. At least 2 downs in the second half were thrown completely away on short out patterns which the receivers had zero chance of catching. It was as if he was about to be taken down scrambling and had to throw it away. But he was in the pocket. He had time, and he threw hard way over the receivers' heads. If Sean R has the best accuracy and arm strength on our team, fine, it was just a bad finish to the game. But I wonder. We need better than that.

You're up by 3 in the fourth quarter. You have the ball, fourth and goal from inside the five. Man, I remember when the football version of sabermetrics started to come and one finding was that you should go for it on fourth down (at least short, if not 5 yds +) whenever you're at the opponents' 40 yard line or closer. I simply could not believe that call, to kick the field goal. Good for Will S to have recovered his health, form, and confidence. But I cannot understand the coaching philosophy on that one. Up by 6 does not help a whole lot. Yes, it prevents a tying field goal, but you're right on the doorstep and even if it failed, you had them backed up all half unable to do much.

As far as I can tell, we don't have a lateral speed advantage to be taking on a sideways attack, whether running or throwing. I don't know why we do it.

No one mentioned how close we came to blocking Wake's last punt. That would have been sweet, Will S might have been in a position for the win. That said, what actually happened, well, our guy did signal fair catch and ran with it. The only reason I can think of why we were not penalized is that the play was blown dead pretty quickly after he caught it.

We have improved under Cutcliffe, but not nearly as much as we could. We're still making silly mistakes on the field (and at this age, that's coaching); the playcalling is at critical times inexplicable (that's coaching); and for all the bother to lower academic standards in recruiting (so I've heard) we're not bringing in significantly better classes of players. Perhaps Cut is the first step towards even better coaching.

[verga]

is a motivator, Cutcliffe seems like a good coach who knows his stuff UNTIL gameday. He refuses to throw the ball down the field, why i don't know? Sometimes a team needs to have their butts kicked, i can't see that being Cutcliffe. Not going for it before half told me all i needed to know about coach, you're behind, you haven't scored and yet you settle for a field goal? I believe Cutcliffe said if they didn't beat Wake today he would put away the black uniforms, well it's time to throw them away for good. I can't see where we're going to get another W this season.

[cspan37421]

I believe Cutcliffe said if they didn't beat Wake today he would put away the black uniforms, well it's time to throw them away for good. I can't see where we're going to get another W this season.

If that's true, I'm appalled. He's actually spending time thinking about home uniform colors?

Thank goodness that Under Armor guy isn't a Duke grad. Can you imagine how distracting that would be the coaching staff? Decisions!

Perhaps the black uniforms have thrown our chakras out of balance. Or maybe we need homeopathic levels of Gatorade to really get the maximum benefit out of that sports drink.

Tonight's metaphor: Duke Football's bowl chance is the guy on the gurney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

[Scorp4me]

blah, blah, blah. It's the same whining every game. If we had won by one point you'd all be singing their praises. And are you really complaining that the coaches didn't stay with Boone? After all the @#$#@$ and moaning about not playing Renfree. I'm proud as heck of the kid for showing some toughness and coming back in.

The fact is any one little thing could have changed this game, that's why it was a one point game. If you're going to blame the coaches you might as well blame the Duke players for screwing up or the Wake players for playing well. While I certainly realize there is something to be said for the players having to execute, I'm not to saying a coach can't be blamed ...I'm just saying it was the kind of game where you can assign blame here or there or anywhere...but there just wasn't all that much blame to go around. It was a heck of a game and I'm sick as can be that we have lost another close one to Wake.

[6th Man]

I've been a season ticket holder for quite a few years now and I've certainly had my share of frustration and long drives back home. This season has probably been the worst for me. The Richmond game was an absolute disaster. Today we lost to a Wake Forest team for the 12th consecutive time in our typical "not getting it done" fashion. As many of you have said, our play calling was abysmal. The calls to burn a timeout and kick a field goal at the end of the half and to not go for 2 down 5 highly debatable. Not finding a way to punch in a TD and settling for a field goal late in the game. I can't believe we can't find a better way to play first and goal situations. Absolutely no creativity whatsoever. How many times this year have we run Connette and Boone in first and goal situations? Richmond and Wake are important games for us. These are the games you have to win. Ironically we have been the flatest out of the gates against these two teams. How can you not come out fired up against these two teams? Both have cleaned our clocks recently. I came to these games fired up as a fan only to be deflated quickly by slow starts and uninspired play. Coach Cut has certainly improved Duke's football, but at some point you have to start to wonder if this is as good as it gets? The press conferences are broken records. Working hard in practice and we are better than our record shows...we have to take look at ourselves, coaches included...blah blah blah. Same song and dance and the same results. Afterwhile it just starts sounding like hot air. I know we had and have a loooong ways to go. But there are aspects that are showing NO improvement. I know Rome wasn't built in a day, but the struggles of Duke football have been long and painful. Richmond and Wake Forest this year only made it worse. I probably shouldn't be posting tonight as I am incredibly bitter. I'm remaining a fan...though I question my sanity. I've suffered through too much bad football not to see this thing through at some point.

[uh_no]

blah, blah, blah. It's the same whining every game. If we had won by one point you'd all be singing their praises. And are you really complaining that the coaches didn't stay with Boone? After all the @#$#@$ and moaning about not playing Renfree. I'm proud as heck of the kid for showing some toughness and coming back in.

The fact is any one little thing could have changed this game, that's why it was a one point game. If you're going to blame the coaches you might as well blame the Duke players for screwing up or the Wake players for playing well. While I certainly realize there is something to be said for the players having to execute, I'm not to saying a coach can't be blamed ...I'm just saying it was the kind of game where you can assign blame here or there or anywhere...but there just wasn't all that much blame to go around. It was a heck of a game and I'm sick as can be that we have lost another close one to Wake.

I agree about your point on renfree.

When we lose to a better team its because, unfortunately, our players are just not as big or skilled, and that's not something you can make a decision to change. Play calls and game plans are much easier to change. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. So I absolutely believe you can fault the coaches for their work today. We can assign 2 specific coaches' decisions to this loss. A horrid coaching decision is more similar to a player committing a stupid personal foul than a missed tackle or dropped pass. If a player committed fouls that cost us 15 yards week in and week out, he'd get reamed by the coaches. Why can the coaches not be ripped by the fans for making the same terrible coaching decisions week in and week out?

[J.Blink]

I agree about your point on renfree.

Referring to the Connette / Boone package? I'll comment below.


When we lose to a better team its because, unfortunately, our players are just not as big or skilled, and that's not something you can make a decision to change.

That's exactly how I felt after the FSU game. Richmond--I was mad. Some of the other losses, felt bad, but I wasn't particularly mad (maybe resigned). FSU I wasn't upset at all (beyond what's expected for a loss)--they were clearly a more physically talented team. Not a lot you can do when your opponent is bigger, taller, and faster than you are. I thought Duke played reasonably well.


The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

That's how I (and I'm assuming others) felt about Renfree during much of this game. He just did not seem to ever look downfield (or at least did so infrequently). Is that play calling or Renfree? There were definitely multiple plays I saw where Renfree missed an open receiver to go for the close man (the East-West pass as someone called it). I'm not saying he should be perfect, but the pattern--the "same thing and expecting different results" if you will, was the sideways pass behind the receiver. I'm not sure you can blame that on play calling alone. He took a couple hits, came out at one point, and was limping at other times. There's no shame in not performing 100% if you're not physically 100%. Boone had a good drive...and was replaced by Renfree afterwards. Why break the momentum? If he's hot and Renfree's not, let him roll. My problem with the Connette/Boone package (other than the fact that it became completely predictable) is that more than anything else it destroyed Renfree's momentum. I imagine it must have been fairly disheartening to drive down the field and then get benched when you're inside the 20...

As an aside, I was looking at Cut's stats earlier. Pretty crazy that he was fired one year after going 10-3 and a bowl victory. During 6 years at Ole Miss, Cut won more bowl games (4) than Duke has ever won. Heck, in those six years, Cut had the same number of winning seasons (5) that Duke has had my entire life! Just shows how different expectations are... For what it's worth, I'm not one who is calling for any major shakeup, but damn if this season doesn't feel just like a reversion to the mean.

[dukeballboy88]

I dont post alot about football because im not a big fan of college footballs bowl system, it kind of turns me off from the sport. I watch all the Duke games though and attend when I can but the fg to go up 6 almost made me throw my drink. Actually the call before the fg, the roll out with Boone to the weak side of the field made me mad then when cut decided to kick it instead of pounding it in,I wanted to throw my drink. I sent my buddy thats a die hard worrisome wake fan a text and said good game yall will win 24-23.

You cant settle for fg's in the red zone.

[langdonfan]

yet with "no mystery", we scored consistently with Boone in. The reason, IMO, you keep Boone in is because we were playing with a "what do we have to lose" mentality with him in....mystery or not.

Why has Boone been plugged into the "Connette Package" anyway? Boone and Connette seem to be very different players. When Boone got his first playing time early on this season, he was used mostly as a passer and was effective. Suddenly around the third or fourth game of the year he became purely a runner. What the hell happened??? Is the thought that because Connette is injured someone MUST be placed into that role? That makes no sense to me. Seems like the coaches need to let Anthony be Anthony...

[365Duke]

Why has Boone been plugged into the "Connette Package" anyway? Boone and Connette seem to be very different players. When Boone got his first playing time early on this season, he was used mostly as a passer and was effective. Suddenly around the third or fourth game of the year he became purely a runner. What the hell happened??? Is the thought that because Connette is injured someone MUST be placed into that role? That makes no sense to me. Seems like the coaches need to let Anthony be Anthony...

100% agree. I actually think that because most teams see him as a one dimensional threat, that makes him even more dangerous on the pass.

[Kimist]

Like others here, I continue to make the trek to Wally Wade and I continue to have dismal drives back home. I have had my current seats longer (since early 70's) than most posters on these boards have even been around.

Is there any kind of statistic, official or unofficial, for completed passes resulting in a loss of yardage? My guess is the Devils might lead the nation in that category.:confused:

k

[devildeac]

2103

2104

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/10/23/1588564/wake-continues-win-streak-over.html


"Cutcliffe praised his team's second half efforts, though said afterward he had done a "more than poor job" of coaching in the first half. He said Duke lacked discipline and made "wishy-washy" decisions."

[CameronBlue]

2103

2104

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/10/23/1588564/wake-continues-win-streak-over.html


"Cutcliffe praised his team's second half efforts, though said afterward he had done a "more than poor job" of coaching in the first half. He said Duke lacked discipline and made "wishy-washy" decisions."

I wonder if he actually believes that or if he's just performing his perfunctory duties as caretaker of the team's pscyhe?

[TwiceDuke]

Can minds be changed on an internet message board? Doubtful.

The latter half of this thread bothers me, though. Does some of the blame rest at the feet of the coaching staff? Sure. But I think that the large problem is that, within a game, Cutcliffe and his staff have shown some reluctance to be dynamic. Sometimes that works - e.g. when you have a team that can dictate the pace of play and the style of the game - and sometimes it doesn't - e.g. when you are a weaker team, and have to exploit what is available.

Cutcliffe coaches this team as if they are capable of dominating ball games. I respect that, to an extent. It's part of the winning mentality. It's also frustrating, because everyone ends up playing Sunday-morning quarterback and identifying 101 ways to improve the game plan.

THAT SAID - "dynamic" and "aggressive" are two different concepts. Cutcliffe and staff are far from conservative in their play-calling. A number of onsides kicks, fake punts, and plays involving general trickery show this to be true. Could Cutcliffe be more aggressive? Sure. But, then you're running a circus side-show rather than a football team. Frankly, if I'm trying to build a football program, I do it by targeting the latter.

What I saw yesterday:

1 - In the early part of the game, the check-downs fall (in my eyes) squarely on Renfree. Or the defense. Or the lack of pass protection. Or, most likely of all, on a combination of all three. Renfree has spent a lot of time on his back this year. It's why Cutcliffe has targeted something like a 2.5 second release. How many balls can you throw down field in 2.5 seconds? Renfree has to make quick decisions, and it has started to show. I support Renfree every time he takes the field, but we also have to recognize that he's playing within a very confined area - the boundaries to which are NOT NECESSARILY drawn by the coaches. As the walls close in, Renfree historically has allowed his game to come undone. I think Wake got inside of his head. Hence, the many check-downs early, and the inaccuracy late.

If you want some corroborating evidence, take a look at Renfree's eyes, early in the game. He's looking downfield. He's just not finding anything he likes. Blame the players, blame Cutcliffe's training vis-a-vis a quick release, but don't blame conservativism. Conservative play calling had very little to do with the fact that our quarterback couldn't find players down field.

2 - We did well with the running game! Boone did, essentially, everything that was asked of him! Two small victories. And, for all the lambast earlier about Cutcliffe being static, rather than dynamic, I think the staff did a great job of exploiting the availability of the run. The adjustments at half time worked extraordinarily well, and a team that had been down by 14 points ended up taking a six-point lead. This was not the "Connette package" of old. Instead, it scored us six points (and very nearly 12).

3 - Contrary to some, I think that the coaching staff made the only sensible decisions regarding quarterbacks. Boone absolutely belonged in the game once we were inside the 10. And I think that the scoring drives bear that out. I also want my VETERAN quarterback, who by some sources was predicted to be the class of the ACC this year, in the game when the game is on the line. Boone did what was asked of him. Renfree and Co. couldn't quite pull it out. That breaks my heart. But I stick by Renfree for gutting it out. The ONLY qualm I have with the end-of-game play-calling and substitutions: I might have tried Boone on the second down with two minutes left. We needed six yards to give Snyderwine a shot, and our run game produced almost 3.5 yards per run.

4 - We're one blown coverage play away from a very different attitude on this board. Watch the play again. Whether Wake starts on it's own 1, or starts on the 35 (like it did), Givens is going to burn us for a TD on that play. It's what playmakers do. So all of this talk of "we should have gone for it" - while I understand, and even remember thinking the same - is moot. If we go for the TD on fourth, miss, and Wake burns us (as they were fated to do, apparently), then we're down 4 and we're in even more trouble.

PS - the argument "we'd been holding them all half" cuts both ways. If I'm a coach, and my team has held the opponent to four straight three-and-outs, has allowed 1 yard of offense in the half, and has all of the momentum... I kick the field goal. I put my defense back on the field. I say "hold them. Hold them to three-and-out. If not, then stop them at the 20 and let them kick a field goal." I think that the extra padding gives the defense the confidence and breathing room that they need. And I fully expect my defense to step up, not lay an egg. But, this is the Duke-Wake game, and the last 12 years have proven... Duke's going to find a heartbreaking way to lose. Moreover, if Wake had scored a SECOND TD in the half, Duke still would have had a one possession game after kicking a field goal (i.e. up six, down one, down eight), rather than being in an insurmountable hole (i.e. up three, down four, down 11).


Too much Chicken-Littleness going on here. AND FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, I hate the conclusory statements here about "no progress" or "bad recruiting." I'd put this group of players up against the best Roof team, any day, and watch the current players put a beat-down on the Roof team. Are our memories that short? I still remember the sting of owning the longest losing streak in the country.

We're all watching GOOD FOOTBALL now! The acute frustration we've begun to feel after these games should be proof enough that things are moving in the right direction.

*Steps off of soapbox*

[devildeac]

I wonder if he actually believes that or if he's just performing his perfunctory duties as caretaker of the team's pscyhe?

In his "media face" and the several times I have heard him speak, he seems sincere. Doesn't seem like the type who would throw his players under large public transportation vehicles with multiple sets of wheels (cough, cough:rolleyes:;)).

[Devilsfan]

Good news, we were resilient and competitive. Bad news, story had a plagiarized ending. Further bad news, this was Wake and at home.

[sagegrouse]

Can minds be changed on an internet message board? Doubtful.


Too much Chicken-Littleness going on here. AND FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, I hate the conclusory statements here about "no progress" or "bad recruiting." I'd put this group of players up against the best Roof team, any day, and watch the current players put a beat-down on the Roof team. Are our memories that short? I still remember the sting of owning the longest losing streak in the country.

We're all watching GOOD FOOTBALL now! The acute frustration we've begun to feel after these games should be proof enough that things are moving in the right direction.

*Steps off of soapbox*

Great post, TD. I know people focus on the particular play rather than the general situation. (Hey! We were behind 17 points just before half. How did that happen?) I expect that will always happen. And I understand the frustration: we don't need to lose winnable games.

But the leap from detecting error or questioning decisions to giving up on the team and the coaching staff is ridiculous.

sagegrouse

[Richard Berg]

Ross Cockrell. I'll have to watch the highlights (low lights) to be 100 percent sure and I'm not mentally ready to do that yet, but I'm 99% sure that first Greene, then Cockrell and finally Matt Daniels fail to bring Givens down on the touchdown.
Just catching up to the game on ESPN3. You're correct.

[cspan37421]

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/10/23/1588564/wake-continues-win-streak-over.html


"Cutcliffe praised his team's second half efforts, though said afterward he had done a "more than poor job" of coaching in the first half. He said Duke lacked discipline and made "wishy-washy" decisions."

a) maybe we should take him at his word.
b) who is (ultimately) responsible when a team lacks discipline?

Don't get me wrong - I don't want a return to the Franks or Roof era. But I would hope that's not our only choice. If it is ... I don't know why we bother.

[devildeac]

a) maybe we should take him at his word.
b) who is (ultimately) responsible when a team lacks discipline?

Don't get me wrong - I don't want a return to the Franks or Roof era. But I would hope that's not our only choice. If it is ... I don't know why we bother.

From another article I read (from the herald-sun, IIRC), I think Cut was referring to himself and his staff as much, if not moreso than the players, WRT to the "wishy-washy" decisions.

Regarding the discipline issue, I think both parties share fairly equally. The leaders must set the standards (work ethic, expectations, effort, plans of execution, etc) and the players/workers must execute them with fervor and repetition in order to succeed. If either party opts out, the system fails.

[Newton_14]

Can minds be changed on an internet message board? Doubtful.

The latter half of this thread bothers me, though. Does some of the blame rest at the feet of the coaching staff? Sure. But I think that the large problem is that, within a game, Cutcliffe and his staff have shown some reluctance to be dynamic. Sometimes that works - e.g. when you have a team that can dictate the pace of play and the style of the game - and sometimes it doesn't - e.g. when you are a weaker team, and have to exploit what is available.

Cutcliffe coaches this team as if they are capable of dominating ball games. I respect that, to an extent. It's part of the winning mentality. It's also frustrating, because everyone ends up playing Sunday-morning quarterback and identifying 101 ways to improve the game plan.

THAT SAID - "dynamic" and "aggressive" are two different concepts. Cutcliffe and staff are far from conservative in their play-calling. A number of onsides kicks, fake punts, and plays involving general trickery show this to be true. Could Cutcliffe be more aggressive? Sure. But, then you're running a circus side-show rather than a football team. Frankly, if I'm trying to build a football program, I do it by targeting the latter.

What I saw yesterday:

1 - In the early part of the game, the check-downs fall (in my eyes) squarely on Renfree. Or the defense. Or the lack of pass protection. Or, most likely of all, on a combination of all three. Renfree has spent a lot of time on his back this year. It's why Cutcliffe has targeted something like a 2.5 second release. How many balls can you throw down field in 2.5 seconds? Renfree has to make quick decisions, and it has started to show. I support Renfree every time he takes the field, but we also have to recognize that he's playing within a very confined area - the boundaries to which are NOT NECESSARILY drawn by the coaches. As the walls close in, Renfree historically has allowed his game to come undone. I think Wake got inside of his head. Hence, the many check-downs early, and the inaccuracy late.

If you want some corroborating evidence, take a look at Renfree's eyes, early in the game. He's looking downfield. He's just not finding anything he likes. Blame the players, blame Cutcliffe's training vis-a-vis a quick release, but don't blame conservativism. Conservative play calling had very little to do with the fact that our quarterback couldn't find players down field.

2 - We did well with the running game! Boone did, essentially, everything that was asked of him! Two small victories. And, for all the lambast earlier about Cutcliffe being static, rather than dynamic, I think the staff did a great job of exploiting the availability of the run. The adjustments at half time worked extraordinarily well, and a team that had been down by 14 points ended up taking a six-point lead. This was not the "Connette package" of old. Instead, it scored us six points (and very nearly 12).

3 - Contrary to some, I think that the coaching staff made the only sensible decisions regarding quarterbacks. Boone absolutely belonged in the game once we were inside the 10. And I think that the scoring drives bear that out. I also want my VETERAN quarterback, who by some sources was predicted to be the class of the ACC this year, in the game when the game is on the line. Boone did what was asked of him. Renfree and Co. couldn't quite pull it out. That breaks my heart. But I stick by Renfree for gutting it out. The ONLY qualm I have with the end-of-game play-calling and substitutions: I might have tried Boone on the second down with two minutes left. We needed six yards to give Snyderwine a shot, and our run game produced almost 3.5 yards per run.

4 - We're one blown coverage play away from a very different attitude on this board. Watch the play again. Whether Wake starts on it's own 1, or starts on the 35 (like it did), Givens is going to burn us for a TD on that play. It's what playmakers do. So all of this talk of "we should have gone for it" - while I understand, and even remember thinking the same - is moot. If we go for the TD on fourth, miss, and Wake burns us (as they were fated to do, apparently), then we're down 4 and we're in even more trouble.

PS - the argument "we'd been holding them all half" cuts both ways. If I'm a coach, and my team has held the opponent to four straight three-and-outs, has allowed 1 yard of offense in the half, and has all of the momentum... I kick the field goal. I put my defense back on the field. I say "hold them. Hold them to three-and-out. If not, then stop them at the 20 and let them kick a field goal." I think that the extra padding gives the defense the confidence and breathing room that they need. And I fully expect my defense to step up, not lay an egg. But, this is the Duke-Wake game, and the last 12 years have proven... Duke's going to find a heartbreaking way to lose. Moreover, if Wake had scored a SECOND TD in the half, Duke still would have had a one possession game after kicking a field goal (i.e. up six, down one, down eight), rather than being in an insurmountable hole (i.e. up three, down four, down 11).


Too much Chicken-Littleness going on here. AND FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, I hate the conclusory statements here about "no progress" or "bad recruiting." I'd put this group of players up against the best Roof team, any day, and watch the current players put a beat-down on the Roof team. Are our memories that short? I still remember the sting of owning the longest losing streak in the country.

We're all watching GOOD FOOTBALL now! The acute frustration we've begun to feel after these games should be proof enough that things are moving in the right direction.

*Steps off of soapbox*

Best post of the thread by a mile. Nothing much I can add to it, other than a couple of thoughts. One consistent theme in all of the bad parts of games this year held true much of the 1st half yesterday. In much of the 1st half, the Wake QB was getting 5 to 7 seconds to survey the field and wait for a receiver to come open. You simply cannot ask your secondary to cover for that amount of time. On the other side, for much of the same half, Renfree was getting less than 3 seconds to survey the field, and wait for a reciever to come open, thus the many sacks, check downs, scrambles, "sideways passes". You cannot have a vertical passing game under those conditions, let alone win games. It changed on both sides of the ball in the 2nd half, and we saw the results. Unfortunately, once we corrected the problems from the 1st half, we were bitten by too many red zone trips that resulted in FG's rather than TD's. On that last redzone trip I would have preferred a power I formation with Boone under center, and 4 straight handoffs to Desmond Scott, or stick with the pistol, and a mix of one of 3 plays: 1. Handoff's to Desmond Scott, 2. Handoff to Crowder on the end around, or 3. Boone on the QB Draw.

You win the battle inside the 10 yd line in the Red Zone with power running, (which we had shown we could effectively on Wake) or with fade passes to the corner to your 6'5 Wide Receiver. We do not have one of those unfortunately, at least not one with experience. I think Desmond would have gotten the job done given 1 to 4 tries.

[watzone]

Best post of the thread by a mile. Nothing much I can add to it, other than a couple of thoughts. One consistent theme in all of the bad parts of games this year held true much of the 1st half yesterday. In much of the 1st half, the Wake QB was getting 5 to 7 seconds to survey the field and wait for a receiver to come open. You simply cannot ask your secondary to cover for that amount of time. On the other side, for much of the same half, Renfree was getting less than 3 seconds to survey the field, and wait for a reciever to come open, thus the many sacks, check downs, scrambles, "sideways passes". You cannot have a vertical passing game under those conditions, let alone win games. It changed on both sides of the ball in the 2nd half, and we saw the results. Unfortunately, once we corrected the problems from the 1st half, we were bitten by too many red zone trips that resulted in FG's rather than TD's. On that last redzone trip I would have preferred a power I formation with Boone under center, and 4 straight handoffs to Desmond Scott, or stick with the pistol, and a mix of one of 3 plays: 1. Handoff's to Desmond Scott, 2. Handoff to Crowder on the end around, or 3. Boone on the QB Draw.

You win the battle inside the 10 yd line in the Red Zone with power running, (which we had shown we could effectively on Wake) or with fade passes to the corner to your 6'5 Wide Receiver. We do not have one of those unfortunately, at least not one with experience. I think Desmond would have gotten the job done given 1 to 4 tries.

Wow! Bringing the convo here at DBR.

I am frustrated as heck in that losing to Wake again is not a fun thing. But this team is very close to being 5-2 with two more executed plays in two games and if that were the case the boards would be abalze with bowl talk. It's easy to take shots at a team when they are down but recognizing the improvements seem lost on some. Sure, they're taking baby steps but that is much better than being on our heals as was the case with previous coaches. At some point the light will go off and the players will realize they're better than even they think and I look forward to that time.

Here are the Duke Video Highlights from the game - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/duke-football-highlights-video-vs-wake-forest/

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Wow! Bringing the convo here at DBR.

I am frustrated as heck in that losing to Wake again is not a fun thing. But this team is very close to being 5-2 with two more executed plays in two games and if that were the case the boards would be abalze with bowl talk. It's easy to take shots at a team when they are down but recognizing the improvements seem lost on some. Sure, they're taking baby steps but that is much better than being on our heals as was the case with previous coaches. At some point the light will go off and the players will realize they're better than even they think and I look forward to that time.

Here are the Duke Video Highlights from the game - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/duke-football-highlights-video-vs-wake-forest/
You're on the money regarding how close to wins this team is and how the change in attitude will follow the wins when they do materialize. This is not the time to retreat into mourning or embarrassment. This is the time to rally and push ahead! Instead of hanging our heads with disgust, it's time to take to heart a great locker room pep talk....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3VTk0cEQB8.

[OldPhiKap]

Amen to the last few posts. We are not where we want to be yet but are building towards it. This is still a young team.

There is no comparison between where the program is now, and where it was the previous 20 years or so.

And yes, the frustration comes from raised expectations and seeing us close to really breaking through. But I have faith that we will meet those expectations in the future.

[cspan37421]

While a lack of protection time would certainly explain Renfree's inability to throw downfield (and the lack of calls to do so), it is curious that the same o-line has us running the ball pretty well (when we choose to run, which isn't often), and in the recent past I seem to remember a record-setting QB, now with the Browns, who certainly threw the ball downfield. Has our pass protection really declined since the days of Thad Lewis?

[killerleft]

While a lack of protection time would certainly explain Renfree's inability to throw downfield (and the lack of calls to do so), it is curious that the same o-line has us running the ball pretty well (when we choose to run, which isn't often), and in the recent past I seem to remember a record-setting QB, now with the Browns, who certainly threw the ball downfield. Has our pass protection really declined since the days of Thad Lewis?

No, the protection has not declined. Lewis really blossomed his last two years, and Coach Cutcliffe had to be the main reason. Thad became adept at identifying the open receiver immediately, and then zinged the ball to that man. Sean has not yet been able to do that with as much consistency as Thad. I'm not trying to knock Sean. Thad is an NFL-quality quarterback, and to just make a pro roster as QB is a great accomplishment. Can Sean be that good? Maybe. He's physically there.

I have a serious question for Watzone or others who see our QBs practice a good bit. Is Anthony Boone a good passer? The little bit I've seen of him indicates he might be, but the sample size is admittedly tiny.

[roywhite]

One brief comment from watching the game:

Givens from Wake is very, very good.
I thought going into the season that our "V" boys Vernon and Varner were as good as anybody in the league.
However, Givens and Sammy Watkins from Clemson are at a different level altogether, truly game breakers.

In addition to a general upgrade of talent (which I believe is happening) we could also use at least 1 or 2 true playmakers, who could make a great play on their own to decide a game.
I wouldn't rule out Jamison Crowder from reaching that level, but don't see anybody else; maybe Scott or Sneed if fully healthy?

[Duke of Nashville]

No, the protection has not declined. Lewis really blossomed his last two years, and Coach Cutcliffe had to be the main reason. Thad became adept at identifying the open receiver immediately, and then zinged the ball to that man. Sean has not yet been able to do that with as much consistency as Thad. I'm not trying to knock Sean. Thad is an NFL-quality quarterback, and to just make a pro roster as QB is a great accomplishment. Can Sean be that good? Maybe. He's physically there.

I have a serious question for Watzone or others who see our QBs practice a good bit. Is Anthony Boone a good passer? The little bit I've seen of him indicates he might be, but the sample size is admittedly tiny.

I have not seen him practice but I have seen him warm-up prior to a game. Sean may not be throwing as hard when he warms-up (since he knows he has a full game to play) but Boone appears to have the strongest arm out of the bunch.

I am no expert. But, if the VT game starts to get ugly I think we will see AB come in and have a shot at a running a full series. I would like to see Boone have the chance to throw down the field. Since we really only have one package set up for Boone I wonder if he just isn't ready to make these kinds of throws yet. With the strength that I have seen out of AB, in either a shotgun or a single back formation, with a one or two step drop, hitting some slant routes could open up the VV's to make some plays.

[Duke of Nashville]

One brief comment from watching the game:

Givens from Wake is very, very good.
I thought going into the season that our "V" boys Vernon and Varner were as good as anybody in the league.
However, Givens and Sammy Watkins from Clemson are at a different level altogether, truly game breakers.

In addition to a general upgrade of talent (which I believe is happening) we could also use at least 1 or 2 true playmakers, who could make a great play on their own to decide a game.
I wouldn't rule out Jamison Crowder from reaching that level, but don't see anybody else; maybe Scott or Sneed if fully healthy?

I agree with Givens and Watkins. Those guys are incrediable.

Crowder is one heck of an athlete. When I see him run I think of some of the guys that Florida had in the past. If he gets in the open field he is gone! He is fast as heck but his size really hurts him as a WR. I'd like to see him lined up in the backfield more often or try to get some bubble screens going his way. JC3 might make some questionable decisions but he may be our second most talented player on offense (which says alot about a True Freshman), only behind Vernon.

[arnie]

Wow! Bringing the convo here at DBR.

I am frustrated as heck in that losing to Wake again is not a fun thing. But this team is very close to being 5-2 with two more executed plays in two games and if that were the case the boards would be abalze with bowl talk. It's easy to take shots at a team when they are down but recognizing the improvements seem lost on some. Sure, they're taking baby steps but that is much better than being on our heals as was the case with previous coaches. At some point the light will go off and the players will realize they're better than even they think and I look forward to that time.

Here are the Duke Video Highlights from the game - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/duke-football-highlights-video-vs-wake-forest/

http://mcubed.net/ncaaf/teams/duke.shtml

The above link provides an independent ranking of Duke football since 1960. These rankings indicated improvement in Duke football over the past 4 years is not dramatic. I guess we can argue about how the rankings were developed, but I don't think we're that close to winning half our games each year. The current 2011 ranking is #74, but we probably need to win another game or at least play our tough opponents close to stay below 90 or so. Bring back the early to mid 60's!!