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airowe
10-10-2011, 03:40 PM
3 PM Saturday. Duke has the chance to make a serious statement with a win here. The bye was great for resting the healthy players and helping to heal the unhealthy ones.

My boy @thedevilwolf is feeling like Duke makes it four wins in a row and FSU four losses. http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2011/10/10/dhb-exclusive-duke-will-beat-florida-state/

If you live anywhere close to Durham, come out and support these guys.

-bdbd
10-10-2011, 03:52 PM
3 PM Saturday. Duke has the chance to make a serious statement with a win here. The bye was great for resting the healthy players and helping to heal the unhealthy ones.

My boy @thedevilwolf is feeling like Duke makes it four wins in a row and FSU four losses. http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2011/10/10/dhb-exclusive-duke-will-beat-florida-state/

If you live anywhere close to Durham, come out and support these guys.

It'll be interesting to see how badly the FSU confidence is dinged up after the Wake loss. At a macro level, I wonder how they react emotionally - angry and focused and seeking some revenge, or unconfident, searching and unfocused, licking their wounds??? By contrast Duke is riding a 3 game streak, playing at home and following a (healing) bye week. While you always hesitate to predict a win over an FSU team (especially one that entered the season as a top-10 squad in the NC hunt), this is as good a set-up as we've seen heading into the FSU game in many years..... Hmmmm.

And for once FSU will be playing more dinged-up than us!

:rolleyes:

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-10-2011, 04:05 PM
3 PM Saturday. Duke has the chance to make a serious statement with a win here. The bye was great for resting the healthy players and helping to heal the unhealthy ones.

My boy @thedevilwolf is feeling like Duke makes it four wins in a row and FSU four losses. http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2011/10/10/dhb-exclusive-duke-will-beat-florida-state/

If you live anywhere close to Durham, come out and support these guys.
I like thedevilwolf's assessment about how the game can go and why. Florida State has a lot to lose. They haven't really been able to put together a great game this year. Sometimes even good coaches can't figure out how to use what they have.

Duke's on an upward trend of improved play and self confidence. If it comes down to strategies, I think Coach Cutcliffe is better at it than Jimbo.

Bob Green
10-10-2011, 04:56 PM
3My boy @thedevilwolf is feeling like Duke makes it four wins in a row and FSU four losses.

An excellent read. Thanks for the link.

dpslaw
10-10-2011, 05:44 PM
Check out this tweet!

The DevilWolf (@thedevilwolf)
10/10/11 9:21 AM
FSU bans Twitter, forcing their players to put their thoughts down on paper instead. After all, on paper is where FSU shines the most.

OldPhiKap
10-10-2011, 06:06 PM
Not sure I'd be talking smack. FSU is rightly favored by a dozen or more.

mkline09
10-10-2011, 06:21 PM
Not sure I'd be talking smack. FSU is rightly favored by a dozen or more.

While I share his enthusiasm and optomism I'm not going to start poking at the Noles considering they are still pretty darn talented. The chances of a victory are certainly there, but Duke's margin for error is so small that the smack talk just doesn't ring true. If Duke wins this one then they and we to an extent get a little credibility to smack a lip or two.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-10-2011, 06:23 PM
Not sure I'd be talking smack. FSU is rightly favored by a dozen or more.
Those odds reflect great progress being made in Durham, NC. I'm looking forward to a good game, not one like those in the past with monsoons and massacres in the stadium.

awhom111
10-10-2011, 07:32 PM
The ACC website list of RSN affiliates for this game is now online here:
http://www.theacc.com/live/2011-acc-football-match-center-florida-state-at-duke.html

Just a warning that this is not always the most accurate based on my experiences from the past few weeks. If one of your cable stations is on this list, I would double-check the website or local listings to make sure the game is on the channel stated and not on an alternate or the main channel instead of whatever is on the list.

Some of us get our pay TV from a national provider and may get one or more of these channels as a part of our package. It may or may not be blacked out if you are out of market for that channel so that ESPN can charge you for it. You will probably have to wait until the time of the game to figure out if you can watch it.

OldPhiKap
10-10-2011, 07:46 PM
Those odds reflect great progress being made in Durham, NC. I'm looking forward to a good game, not one like those in the past with monsoons and massacres in the stadium.

The line has as much to do with what's happening in Durham as in Tallahassee. Which is a nice change from the years when all that mattered was how (and to what extent) the other team would roll us.

12.5 is about the line when we went up to BC IIRC give or take. We've come a long way. But I am not under any illusion that we are in foranything other than a real uphill battle against a talented, proud, wounded team. They will come with something to prove.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-10-2011, 08:31 PM
The line has as much to do with what's happening in Durham as in Tallahassee. Which is a nice change from the years when all that mattered was how (and to what extent) the other team would roll us.

12.5 is about the line when we went up to BC IIRC give or take. We've come a long way. But I am not under any illusion that we are in foranything other than a real uphill battle against a talented, proud, wounded team. They will come with something to prove.
No doubt that uphill will continue to be a descriptor for a while. There is progress and there is opportunity this Saturday.

Bob Green
10-10-2011, 09:03 PM
12.5 is about the line when we went up to BC IIRC give or take.

The final line in the BC game was seven points. Currently, Duke is a 13 point underdog with the over/under set at 54. I'll take Duke and the over.

msdukie
10-10-2011, 11:05 PM
The final line in the BC game was seven points. Currently, Duke is a 13 point underdog with the over/under set at 54. I'll take Duke and the over.

As a proud Duke alum and loyal season ticket holder since graduation (who has been to both of Duke's road wins this year) and as someone who engaged in questionable decisionmaking on so many levels by choosing to attend F$U for law school, I believe that with all of F$U's struggles and Duke's substantial progress, we are still looking at a 30 point loss.

Let's hope I'm wrong.

uh_no
10-10-2011, 11:11 PM
As a proud Duke alum and loyal season ticket holder since graduation (who has been to both of Duke's road wins this year) and as someone who engaged in questionable decisionmaking on so many levels by choosing to attend F$U for law school, I believe that with all of F$U's struggles and Duke's substantial progress, we are still looking at a 30 point loss.

Let's hope I'm wrong.

Wow. 30 points is a far cry from 13.

Perspective: we lost to STANFORD by 30, and stanford is a heck of a lot better than FSU. Not to mention, we are coming off a bye week. Don't underestimate the rest + extra prep time that FSU clearly didn't have. One can also mention the night vs day difference in playcalling since the stanford game.

I just can't fathom how someone could justifiably expect a 30 point loss.

johnb
10-10-2011, 11:47 PM
Wow. 30 points is a far cry from 13.

Perspective: we lost to STANFORD by 30, and stanford is a heck of a lot better than FSU. Not to mention, we are coming off a bye week. Don't underestimate the rest + extra prep time that FSU clearly didn't have. One can also mention the night vs day difference in playcalling since the stanford game.

I just can't fathom how someone could justifiably expect a 30 point loss.

I'd think it's because Stanford might be a better team than FSU, but FSU has better players. If they play together and to their potential, Stanford would have a hard time with them. And so would we.

Duvall
10-10-2011, 11:49 PM
Wow. 30 points is a far cry from 13.

Perspective: we lost to STANFORD by 30, and stanford is a heck of a lot better than FSU.

You think that was Stanford's best effort?

FSU won't be a West Coast team coming east for an afternoon kickoff, and will be much more desperate.

uh_no
10-10-2011, 11:53 PM
I'd think it's because Stanford might be a better team than FSU, but FSU has better players. If they play together and to their potential, Stanford would have a hard time with them. And so would we.

Wait....Stanford has arguably the best player in the country....that's gotta be worth something, no?

OldPhiKap
10-11-2011, 07:39 AM
Wow. 30 points is a far cry from 13.

Perspective: we lost to STANFORD by 30, and stanford is a heck of a lot better than FSU. Not to mention, we are coming off a bye week. Don't underestimate the rest + extra prep time that FSU clearly didn't have. One can also mention the night vs day difference in playcalling since the stanford game.

I just can't fathom how someone could justifiably expect a 30 point loss.


FWIW, FSU had a bye week between its 35-30 loss at Clemson and its 35-30 loss at Wake.

Wander
10-11-2011, 07:59 AM
FSU won't be a West Coast team coming east for an afternoon kickoff, and will be much more desperate.

FSU was supposed to be desperate for their last game - they were a preseason top 10 team coming off a bye week and two consecutive losses. Instead they played like complete crap against Wake.

FSU is a better team than Duke and has a better chance of beating us than not, but I don't think it will because of any sort of mental edge (or by 30 points).

MulletMan
10-11-2011, 08:31 AM
Guys I think there is a difference between a middling team with no talent and a talented team that hasn't lived up to its potential. If you watched the OU-FSU game, you would know how good this FSU team is.

OldPhiKap
10-11-2011, 08:36 AM
Guys I think there is a difference between a middling team with no talent and a talented team that hasn't lived up to its potential. If you watched the OU-FSU game, you would know how good this FSU team is.

. . . especially if you also saw what OU did to Texas last week.

Olympic Fan
10-11-2011, 09:49 AM
Show of hands ... if I had told you before the seson that coming into this game, one team would be on a three-game winning streak and the other on a three-game losing streak, how many would have guessed which was which? That's remarkable in itself.

As for Saturday's outcome -- I think the two-touchdown line is reasonable. I'm certainly hoping Duke can do a lot better (even win!), but wouldn't be stunned if it got ugly.

Watching the Wake-FSU game, the Noles got themselves in trouble by starting their backup QB, who was awful. Once Manuel got in the game, they moved the ball consistently. On the other hand, by that point Wake was shredding their defense. THAT is the part of the game that I can't understand.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-11-2011, 09:53 AM
Show of hands ... if I had told you before the seson that coming into this game, one team would be on a three-game winning streak and the other on a three-game losing streak, how many would have guessed which was which? That's remarkable in itself.

As for Saturday's outcome -- I think the two-touchdown line is reasonable. I'm certainly hoping Duke can do a lot better (even win!), but wouldn't be stunned if it got ugly.

Watching the Wake-FSU game, the Noles got themselves in trouble by starting their backup QB, who was awful. Once Manuel got in the game, they moved the ball consistently. On the other hand, by that point Wake was shredding their defense. THAT is the part of the game that I can't understand.
The fact that Wake was able to shred the defense certainly makes me look at this game differently than previous games with FL State. Wake highlighted FL State weaknesses in a clear way.

chrishoke
10-11-2011, 10:14 AM
Wake is much better than you think. They were very physical with FSU.

wilko
10-11-2011, 11:47 AM
Wake is much better than you think. They were very physical with FSU.

THIS is something I wondered about. I'm inclined to agree.

As much as I want Duke to win the game, as much as I want this to a defining moment of the Phoenix Rising, shaking off the vestiges of the past and all that... well, I've thought that before about past teams. So far this movie seems familiar.

Duke has put them in the position to have a meaningful game on the line, but they gotta make it happen and win before I go hog wild over it.
I cant go all in just yet.

rsvman
10-11-2011, 12:07 PM
As much as I hate to say it, and as much as I will be rooting hard for a Duke victory here, if the line is really 13 points and I were a betting man I'd put my money on FSU all day every day.

I expect we lose by 17 points or more.

riverside6
10-11-2011, 12:17 PM
To get you ready for the game, you can use our new football game sim to see what might happen against FSU by simming the game here:

http://www.scacchoops.com/fb_GameSimulator.asp?HomeTeam=DU&HomeYear=2012&AwayTeam=FS&AwayYear=2012

Right now, Duke has won 13% of sims and FSU is a 2 touchdown favorite.

Enjoy.

gls6
10-11-2011, 12:34 PM
If Duke wins, I am rushing the field and getting tazered.

My friend told me that either Adam or Joe on 99.9 was talking Duke up and predicting they will win by 12 and when that happens, college gameday comes to Durham for the Wake game. Come on. We beat Florida International. Not Florida. We will have 20 rushing yards to their 190. Let's just not miss our field goals and try to keep it close for as long as possible.

uh_no
10-11-2011, 12:44 PM
Let's just not miss our field goals and try to keep it close for as long as possible.

Any word if snyderwine is fully healed up? I know that despite playing he's still not 100%, but has seemed more himself of lat.

Duvall
10-11-2011, 12:45 PM
If Duke wins, I am rushing the field and getting tazered.

My friend told me that either Adam or Joe on 99.9 was talking Duke up and predicting they will win by 12 and when that happens, college gameday comes to Durham for the Wake game. Come on. We beat Florida International. Not Florida. We will have 20 rushing yards to their 190. Let's just not miss our field goals and try to keep it close for as long as possible.

Much discussion of this game has been made with tongue in cheek.

gls6
10-11-2011, 12:50 PM
Totally. At least we're getting some airtime.

devildeac
10-11-2011, 01:07 PM
Any word if snyderwine is fully healed up? I know that despite playing he's still not 100%, but has seemed more himself of lat.

Cut held him out of practice some last week based on the article I read a couple days ago from the Herald-Sun but said he was improving, IIRC. Also, another secondary source I talked with today went to the FIU game and chatted with a close male relative of his who said he was healing/playing with less discomfort.

CameronBornAndBred
10-11-2011, 01:10 PM
As much as I'm looking forward to another opportunity of beating the Seminoles, the fact will be that IF we do beat them this weekend it will be looked upon by the media as we won because "Florida State sucks". And after 4 straight losses it will be hard to argue against.
That being said, I'm looking forward to a competitive, high scoring game with tons of yardage through the air by both teams.

CameronBornAndBred
10-11-2011, 01:14 PM
Here's an interesting comparison to see how each team stacks up, and how amazingly close we are.

FSU
Overall Ranking for Passing Yards = 13th
Overall Ranking for Rushing Yards = 112th

Duke
Overall Ranking for Passing Yards = 16th
Overall Ranking for Rushing Yards = 107th

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-11-2011, 01:21 PM
Florida State may have the edge on raw talent. I think Duke has the edge when it comes to coaches.

OldPhiKap
10-11-2011, 01:28 PM
Any word if snyderwine is fully healed up? I know that despite playing he's still not 100%, but has seemed more himself of lat.

See Jim Sumner's thread on Cut's presser. Per Cut, Will is back to fine for the first time all year.

CDu
10-11-2011, 01:41 PM
If Duke wins, I am rushing the field and getting tazered.

My friend told me that either Adam or Joe on 99.9 was talking Duke up and predicting they will win by 12 and when that happens, college gameday comes to Durham for the Wake game. Come on. We beat Florida International. Not Florida. We will have 20 rushing yards to their 190. Let's just not miss our field goals and try to keep it close for as long as possible.

I didn't hear the Adam & Joe show in which such things were said, but I can almost guarantee (having listened to those guys plenty of times) that if such words were said, they were said dripping with sarcasm. Those guys (especially Ovies) spend most of their day in sarcasm (or snark) mode.

As for the game, I'd be a bit surprised if FSU runs for 190 yards. Their running game has been pretty pedestrian this year. Aside from the Charleston Southern game, they haven't really done a ton on the ground.

What's been crazy is how bad the FSU defense has looked the last two weeks. Clemson shredded them through the air, and Wake was able to pound them on the ground (34 carries for 162 yards when you take out the sack yardage).

I'd expect FSU to bounce back and handle their business this week in what is a must-win game for them. I don't expect it to be a single-digit game. I'd be happy to be wrong, but I think the Noles will respond. That said, if we can make it a shootout, there's always a chance. FSU's defense has been very shaky the last two weeks.

roywhite
10-11-2011, 01:52 PM
Blue Devils have no fear of Seminoles (http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm)

This article from the WRAL site also includes a link to a radio interview on AM 620 with Coach Cut.

I thought this was interesting:


Coming off a bye week, Cutcliffe said the Devils spent their time off nursing back injuries, working about 40 percent of the time on Florida State, 40 percent on Duke, and the remaining 20 percent on the Georgia Tech option offense, which they wont see until late November.

devildeac
10-11-2011, 02:11 PM
Blue Devils have no fear of Seminoles (http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/scholarships_by_sport.htm)

This article from the WRAL site also includes a link to a radio interview on AM 620 with Coach Cut.

I thought this was interesting:



That is quite interesting if the quote is correct. I guess he meant working on the things we do well and correcting some of the mistakes to which alluded after the FIU game. Unless, of course, he meant 40% of the time they worked on Wake (and not Duke).

chrishoke
10-11-2011, 02:17 PM
To get you ready for the game, you can use our new football game sim to see what might happen against FSU by simming the game here:

http://www.scacchoops.com/fb_GameSimulator.asp?HomeTeam=DU&HomeYear=2012&AwayTeam=FS&AwayYear=2012

Right now, Duke has won 13% of sims and FSU is a 2 touchdown favorite.

Enjoy.

I simulated and got a 12-7 Duke win! Obviouskly, I stopped there.

CDu
10-11-2011, 03:08 PM
That is quite interesting if the quote is correct. I guess he meant working on the things we do well and correcting some of the mistakes to which alluded after the FIU game. Unless, of course, he meant 40% of the time they worked on Wake (and not Duke).

I think the interesting part is the "20% on Georgia Tech" part. The rest is 50/50 focusing on your opponent and focusing on you, which I think is standard coachspeak. You spend half the time working on your plays and reviewing your previous games and the other half scouting/preparing for the opponent. You always have to work on your playcalling, formations, and execution, and you have to gameplan for the opponent. And you always have to see what the opponent likes to do with their formations and playcalling and strengths/weaknesses.

The time spent preparing for GT is interesting given how far off that game is. But it's a reflection of how very different GT's offense is from every other offense we'll face this year.

devildeac
10-11-2011, 03:24 PM
I think the interesting part is the "20% on Georgia Tech" part. The rest is 50/50 focusing on your opponent and focusing on you, which I think is standard coachspeak. You spend half the time working on your plays and reviewing your previous games and the other half scouting/preparing for the opponent. You always have to work on your playcalling, formations, and execution, and you have to gameplan for the opponent. And you always have to see what the opponent likes to do with their formations and playcalling and strengths/weaknesses.

The time spent preparing for GT is interesting given how far off that game is. But it's a reflection of how very different GT's offense is from every other offense we'll face this year.

Good point. Quoting Jim Sumner from the Coach Cut presser thread:

"This was interesting. Why work on GT now? In recent years, Duke has played other option teams, e.g. Navy and Army. This year, GT is it. So, Duke took advantage of the off-week to spend some time working on the GT option, practicing against a team Duke doesn't play for another six weeks."

Great minds think alike, right?;)

dukebluelemur
10-11-2011, 04:10 PM
I simulated and got a 12-7 Duke win! Obviouskly, I stopped there.

My first and only sim:
FINAL SCORE -- DU (2012): 27 - FS (2012): 24

OldPhiKap
10-11-2011, 04:44 PM
My first and only sim:
FINAL SCORE -- DU (2012): 27 - FS (2012): 24

Does that make us a "virtual" lock?

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-11-2011, 05:14 PM
Does that make us a "virtual" lock?
Turn, turn, turn.... to everything there is a seaason......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA2IYnGRYac

OZZIE4DUKE
10-11-2011, 06:07 PM
I, for one, am looking forward to taking down some goal posts this Saturday evening about 6:20 pm or so, and carrying them up to the main quad! I'm hoping many of you will join me on the field in doing so, because those suckers are major heavy. Coach Cut said we had to wait until we had a meaningful win to do this. I think that beating FSU, regardless of their so far pitiful record, will qualify as a most meaningful win for our program. :cool:

roywhite
10-13-2011, 09:02 AM
Heather Dinnich of ESPN predicts in her blog:

Duke 35 -- FSU 34 (http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation)


Duke 35, Florida State 34: Duke will do exactly what Wake Forest did, and beat the Seminoles with their passing game and their discipline. Duke didnt allow a turnover or a sack in its come-from-behind road win over FIU. Florida State has made a habit out of untimely penalties, and had five turnovers in the loss to Wake Forest. Duke has a chance to catch the Noles when theyre down, and David Cutcliffe will make sure they do.

davekay1971
10-13-2011, 09:45 AM
Heather Dinnich of ESPN predicts in her blog:

Duke 35 -- FSU 34 (http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation)

Heather's been one of the best about taking note early of Duke's overall program improvement. She's been looking for us to turn the corner for awhile and (fairly) really let us have it for stubbing our toes against Richmond. I appreciate her recognition that Duke has some real strengths and is growing as a football program.

But I really want to tell her, and everyone else in the media, "Shhhh! Don't tell Florida State that we're actually becoming a pretty good team. Don't talk about 3 game winning and losing streaks. Tell FSU all they have to do is show up and they'll get a nice, comfy double digit win to get back on track. No effort needed in Durham." And THEN talk about what a great upset it was after we win! Ahem, hypothetically assuming we win, of course.

I will now go and make a sacrifice to the gods.

Go Duke!

roywhite
10-13-2011, 09:53 AM
I will now go and make a sacrifice to the gods.Go Duke!

Yikes, davekay...

I have visions of you getting some obnoxious Tarheel fan and running him to death on a stress test...

though there is a certain appeal to the thought :)

watzone
10-13-2011, 11:08 AM
http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/fsu-at-duke-qa-previe/ Florida State site answers some questions sharing light on the state of their program after three straight losses. Q & A exchange for those interested. Line is going up meaning money coming in on FSU.

duke blue brewcrew
10-13-2011, 12:32 PM
Heather's been one of the best about taking note early of Duke's overall program improvement. She's been looking for us to turn the corner for awhile and (fairly) really let us have it for stubbing our toes against Richmond. I appreciate her recognition that Duke has some real strengths and is growing as a football program.

But I really want to tell her, and everyone else in the media, "Shhhh! Don't tell Florida State that we're actually becoming a pretty good team. Don't talk about 3 game winning and losing streaks. Tell FSU all they have to do is show up and they'll get a nice, comfy double digit win to get back on track. No effort needed in Durham." And THEN talk about what a great upset it was after we win! Ahem, hypothetically assuming we win, of course.

I will now go and make a sacrifice to the gods.

Go Duke!

It would be nice if our boys could fly under the radar on this one. No need to wake a sleeping giant, provide bulletin board material or anything of the like. FSU is going to be mad enough as it is and looking to turn things around starting with a trip to Durham. Let's save all that discussion for after the game when we can hopefully talk about a great Duke win! Until then I will remain cautiously optomistic that Duke will represent themselves well on the football field, and would love to watch Ozzie and the boys tear down the goal posts afterwards! GO DUKE!!!

DukeSean
10-15-2011, 08:49 AM
It would be nice if our boys could fly under the radar on this one. No need to wake a sleeping giant, provide bulletin board material or anything of the like. FSU is going to be mad enough as it is and looking to turn things around starting with a trip to Durham. Let's save all that discussion for after the game when we can hopefully talk about a great Duke win! Until then I will remain cautiously optomistic that Duke will represent themselves well on the football field, and would love to watch Ozzie and the boys tear down the goal posts afterwards! GO DUKE!!!

the last thing FSU needed was some locker room material, so I was pretty upset (pardon the pun) to see that HD actually picked us. I kinda like having a chip on our shoulder with something to prove.

Defenses are not going to look good today, I'm afraid, but I don't mind giving up 45 points as long as we score 46.

airowe
10-15-2011, 09:14 AM
Here's a link if you font get espn3.com: http://www.firstrowsports.tv/watch/86112/1/watch-florida-state-vs-duke.html

killerleft
10-15-2011, 10:00 AM
Beautiful Fall day, football weather. Great day to root for Duke at Wally Wade.

My ride arrives in an hour. Hope to see a bunch of you there. Go Duke! Turn the 'Noles into 'holes and run right thru 'em!!!

chrishoke
10-15-2011, 10:30 AM
Take no prisoners Devils.

Mike Corey
10-15-2011, 10:58 AM
The first football game I attended at Duke was September 1, 2001, when #6 Florida State came to Wallace Wade.

The game was decently attended by us freshmen, eager to begin reveling in the college experience.

It could not have started any better. At the end of the first quarter, Duke was leading 6-0 after a 78-yard touchdown pass from D. Bryant to Chris Douglas. We held our collective breath.

And then FSU scored 45 straight points.

A win over the Seminoles has been a long time comin'. Git'er done, Devils.

hudlow
10-15-2011, 11:18 AM
I, for one, am looking forward to taking down some goal posts this Saturday evening about 6:20 pm or so, and carrying them up to the main quad! I'm hoping many of you will join me on the field in doing so, because those suckers are major heavy. Coach Cut said we had to wait until we had a meaningful win to do this. I think that beating FSU, regardless of their so far pitiful record, will qualify as a most meaningful win for our program. :cool:


I'll be there in spirit...But I'd love to help carry one of those posts.

AtlBluRew
10-15-2011, 02:24 PM
It's:disheartening to see the empty stands on a beautiful day and our team riding a 3 game win streak.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 02:36 PM
It's:disheartening to see the empty stands on a beautiful day and our team riding a 3 game win streak.

ah. 7 minutes into the game before the first complaints fly in.

You'll enjoy the game a lot more if you don't worry about the crowd and just focus on the game.

AtlBluRew
10-15-2011, 03:05 PM
ah. 7 minutes into the game before the first complaints fly in.

You'll enjoy the game a lot more if you don't worry about the crowd and just focus on the game.


To use your screen name against you now that it's 24-3 a minute into the second quarter .. .uh_no. ;)

grossbus
10-15-2011, 03:06 PM
Looks over to me. :(

DueBlevil
10-15-2011, 03:07 PM
To use your screen name against you now that it's 24-3 a minute into the second quarter .. .uh_no. ;)

And you were wondering why people didn't go to the game...?

arnie
10-15-2011, 03:19 PM
And you were wondering why people didn't go to the game...?

I thought about, but after 40 years of misery, can't deal with it anymore.

loran16
10-15-2011, 03:28 PM
Couple thoughts:

1. The defense is truly godawful. Since Tauiliili, Vinny Rey, and Oghobasse left, we haven't found anyone near their caliber. Opponents can pass long and tend to have issues only when they try to get too cute, such as when FSU early on did several tricky fake handoffs in a row, allowing our D to get extra time to stop the run. I'm not sure if this is coaching or recruiting, but a personnel change isprobably needed. We're destined for last in the ACC in defense for our 2nd year in a row.

1A. For example, QBs against Duke can go long with impunity, as if there's no one open, the D line can't stop a QB from scrambling for good yardage.

2. The conservative playcalling continues to kill me. Down 21 at around the 35, with FSU getting the ball back at half, the team has NO business punting. You can't stop them, you have to go for it.

3. The loss of our backup center really makes this even worse. Good god.

DueBlevil
10-15-2011, 03:34 PM
Couple thoughts:

1. The defense is truly godawful. Since Tauiliili, Vinny Rey, and Oghobasse left, we haven't found anyone near their caliber. Opponents can pass long and tend to have issues only when they try to get too cute, such as when FSU early on did several tricky fake handoffs in a row, allowing our D to get extra time to stop the run. I'm not sure if this is coaching or recruiting, but a personnel change isprobably needed. We're destined for last in the ACC in defense for our 2nd year in a row.

1A. For example, QBs against Duke can go long with impunity, as if there's no one open, the D line can't stop a QB from scrambling for good yardage.

2. The conservative playcalling continues to kill me. Down 21 at around the 35, with FSU getting the ball back at half, the team has NO business punting. You can't stop them, you have to go for it.

3. The loss of our backup center really makes this even worse. Good god.

Can't say I disagree. Duke has looked really bad. We never really had a chance in this game (I don't care what Heather Dinich says). However, remember that this FSU team was ranked in the top 5 to start the season. They are extremely talented and played Oklahoma and Clemson very close. They were probably overranked but three losses in a row have made them look much worse than they really are. Just because Duke's not competitive in this game doesn't mean they won't be competitive in future games this season.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 03:36 PM
Couple thoughts:

1. The defense is truly godawful. Since Tauiliili, Vinny Rey, and Oghobasse left, we haven't found anyone near their caliber. Opponents can pass long and tend to have issues only when they try to get too cute, such as when FSU early on did several tricky fake handoffs in a row, allowing our D to get extra time to stop the run. I'm not sure if this is coaching or recruiting, but a personnel change isprobably needed. We're destined for last in the ACC in defense for our 2nd year in a row.

in all fairness, our secondary has been ravaged by injury. FSU is taking 100% advantage of that... there has been decent pressure on their QB, but we can't keep up with their WRs

Duvall
10-15-2011, 03:41 PM
C
2. The conservative playcalling continues to kill me. Down 21 at around the 35, with FSU getting the ball back at half, the team has NO business punting. You can't stop them, you have to go for it.

See, I don't agree there. It's a three-touchdown deficit in the second quarter, and it was 4th and more than 20. If you can get stops in the second half, that's not an insuperable lead. If you can't get stops, you aren't going to win anyway. Kick it away.

DueBlevil
10-15-2011, 03:46 PM
Is anyone else thinking Duke might try an onside kick to start the 2nd half? Or is that crazy

hudlow
10-15-2011, 03:48 PM
Is anyone else thinking Duke might try an onside kick to start the 2nd half? Or is that crazy

Go for it.

Duvall
10-15-2011, 03:51 PM
Is anyone else thinking Duke might try an onside kick to start the 2nd half? Or is that crazy

Makes sense. Maybe too much sense, FSU may be expecting one.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 03:56 PM
Makes sense. Maybe too much sense, FSU may be expecting one.

AHA so maybe we can fool them by kicking it long!

loran16
10-15-2011, 03:57 PM
in all fairness, our secondary has been ravaged by injury. FSU is taking 100% advantage of that... there has been decent pressure on their QB, but we can't keep up with their WRs

Dude, I wish I could agree with you, but our secondary, when healthy each of the last two years has been terrible. Our cornerbacks have been been seriously deficient, leading to Matt Daniels making tons of tackles.

The Johnny Williams experiment has been a clear failure (though we have not ever had problems with replacing him at WR).

The D needs to go to a traditional D formation, like they tried last year, even if it hurts. I think a coaching personnel change is needed for the D. It can't go on like this.

DueBlevil
10-15-2011, 04:05 PM
Is anyone else thinking Duke might try an onside kick to start the 2nd half? Or is that crazy

CALLED IT!!! haha. Of course Duke then turned it over on downs.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 04:05 PM
Dude, I wish I could agree with you, but our secondary, when healthy each of the last two years has been terrible. Our cornerbacks have been been seriously deficient, leading to Matt Daniels making tons of tackles.

The Johnny Williams experiment has been a clear failure (though we have not ever had problems with replacing him at WR).

The D needs to go to a traditional D formation, like they tried last year, even if it hurts. I think a coaching personnel change is needed for the D. It can't go on like this.

I'm not sure how the success of the secondary in past years mitigates the fact that we are missing 3(?) starters from the secondary.

If I'm not mistaken, we have a new defensive coordinator this year, further mitigating the relevance of previous year's success. For all we know, this system could be working well with a healthy secondary.

You point out that our defensive performance has been horrid in years past, but then you suggest going back to the same scheme you claim is terrible? how does that make sense? Especially when that scheme REMOVES a defensive back.

Duvall
10-15-2011, 04:07 PM
I think a coaching personnel change is needed for the D. It can't go on like this.

You think the team would be helped by having its fourth defensive coordinator in three seasons? Seems like a stretch.

Duvall
10-15-2011, 04:17 PM
But hey, Braxton has made a couple of good catches today. Maybe we shouldn't move him to another position just yet.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 04:20 PM
But hey, Braxton has made a couple of good catches today. Maybe we shouldn't move him to another position just yet.

Renfree had a couple tipped passes....maybe we should try a taller quarterback and put renfree at CB

nocilla
10-15-2011, 04:21 PM
A little bit of good news, UNC lost today. Good job Miami.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 04:56 PM
HERE WE GO! comeback time

mkline09
10-15-2011, 05:49 PM
Tough game but other than the fact that Wake beat the Noles last week, no one really expected a win. Couple observations: Renfree had zero time to throw the ball and the injuries on the o-line didn't help. Duke came out flat again and just didn't seem to have much live in them. Defensively the secondary got scorched and looked like they were two to three steps slow. FSU is just too fast for Duke.

Conner Vernon is just a beast. I mean he has got to be their best player.

I want to see Jay Hollingsworth run the ball more. Good things happen when he is in the game. Desmond Scott looks to be back. He seems to be a little tentative though at times on cuts and is lacking that move to break ankles.

As the game went on Duke's defensive front got some pressure and got to Manuel a couple times. I read some earlier criticism but the d-line is beat up too and they did lose their best pass rusher in Anunike so a lot of young guys are playing now.

Lot of young offensive weapons played in this game WR Holliday and Tyree Watkins caught a few passes. Didn't see Donovan Varner in the second half so I'm guessing, though I never heard, he was hurt.

Overall the loss is ugly but I'm not about to give up on the guys just yet. 3-3 isn't awful and I think there are at least two legitimate chances of winning games this season and I'm not about to consider a 5 win season with such a young team bad though 6 wins and a bowl would be great.

-bdbd
10-15-2011, 05:55 PM
Well, finally got to watch most of one today, with Comcast Sports Net broadcasting it here in DC. Renfree sure seemed overwhelmed for much of the day - FSU brought lots of pressure and he didn't respond well (nor did our line/backs) for the first three quarters. I was expecting a back-up QB at any minute by late-3rd Quarter. Also, I'd thought we had better depth now on the O-line, but they seemed simply outmatched.

The defense seemed to settle down for most of the third and 4th quarters. But I just had the sense this was the Duke of old -- playing overwhelmed, outmanned and scared. Disappointing. Are the injuries really the main reason, or were we just out-athleted?? And I thought we'd recruited a lot of depth. Shouldn't that show up with the injuries?

I hope they recover quickly, and certainly we should see better performances, over time, from the guys who were just coming back from injuries, like Des Scott. Wake is a winable game.

:(

mkline09
10-15-2011, 06:00 PM
Well, finally got to watch most of one today, with Comcast Sports Net broadcasting it here in DC. Renfree sure seemed overwhelmed for much of the day - FSU brought lots of pressure and he didn't respond well (nor did our line/backs) for the first three quarters. I was expecting a back-up QB at any minute by late-3rd Quarter. Also, I'd thought we had better depth now on the O-line, but they seemed simply outmatched.

The defense seemed to settle down for most of the third and 4th quarters. But I just had the sense this was the Duke of old -- playing overwhelmed, outmanned and scared. Disappointing. Are the injuries really the main reason, or were we just out-athleted?? And I thought we'd recruited a lot of depth. Shouldn't that show up with the injuries?

I hope they recover quickly, and certainly we should see better performances, over time, from the guys who were just coming back from injuries, like Des Scott. Wake is a winable game.

:(

I really think youth played a big role in us looking overwhelmed. Renfree just didn't have any time to throw the ball. FSU is super athletic and I think that accounted for some of the big plays along with a banged up secondary. I hate giving excuses but this team is awfully young. So yeah I think that they were just out-athleted for the most part, but I'm not ready to say this is the Duke of old just yet. Now if they put up a stinker againt Wake I might just go there but I'm hopeful they will man up and play better.

Duvall
10-15-2011, 06:07 PM
Wake is a winnable game.

What makes you say that?

NYC Duke Fan
10-15-2011, 06:09 PM
What makes you say that?

You beat me to the punch. Wake is beating Va Tech as I am writing.

Duke is not ready to play the better teams in the ACC

CDu
10-15-2011, 06:25 PM
You beat me to the punch. Wake is beating Va Tech as I am writing.

Duke is not ready to play the better teams in the ACC

Unfortunately, I tend to agree. We just looked overmatched today. Granted, FSU has the talent to do that (they gave Oklahoma a very tough test). But we'll have Wake (who beat FSU and is currently beating Va Tech early), Va Tech (more athletic than us like FSU), Ga Tech, UVa (who just beat Ga Tech), and UNC. If we win two of those remaining games, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

jimsumner
10-15-2011, 07:21 PM
RE: Duke's defensive backs.

I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. The absence of a consistent pass rush makes it very difficult to cover ACC receivers. Very, very difficult.

mkline09
10-15-2011, 07:37 PM
RE: Duke's defensive backs.

I've said this before but I think it bears repeating. The absence of a consistent pass rush makes it very difficult to cover ACC receivers. Very, very difficult.

I agree with you there was very little pressure on Manuel. That being said their Defensive line is beat up and young and it is hard to expect much of a pass rush against bigger faster offensive lines with a bunch of young untested guys. Also I have to think that all the pressure has got to come from the defensive line because with only two linebackers you don't get much help from them unless you blitz and that leaves your defensive backs in a lot of one on one coverage and the DBs just can't run with the top level wide receivers one on one.

Newton_14
10-15-2011, 07:37 PM
It was disappointing for sure, and we did not play anywhere near our capability today. It was easily the worse performance of the year for the team. A few rationale observations. FSU is far better with Manuel than without. It is not even close really. FSU is also big, athletic, and fast. Duke is improving in size and speed, and the gap between our size and speed compared to the better teams, is not nearly as large as it was 4 years ago. Still, there is a gap there, and it hurt us today. Doesn't help that the defense has been decimated with injuries.

3 Pass completions over 50+ yards is really what broke the game open for FSU. All 3 balls were perfect throws from Manuel, and came after he had plenty of time to throw. At that point in the game, we were just not getting any pressure on him. In those first 20 to 25 minutes, everything went perfectly for FSU and terrible for Duke. Renfree had a couple of long throws during that stretch to open receivers but just missed them. Manuel did not miss. It makes a difference. A FSU punt lands on the 8 and dies on the 2 perfectly. We played bad during that stretch and Murphy's Law kicked in. Credit FSU for making plays, and blame Duke for not giving our best effort. Two plays come to mind as examples. Manuel fakes a handoff then runs right into 2 perfectly positioned Duke defenders. What should have been a sack for a loss turns into a big gain when he somehow jukes both guys and blows by them. Play number 2 came just before the half with us behind 24-3, and Desmond catches the swing pass for a nice gain. But instead of running out of bounds to stop the clock, he tries to battle for a meaningless yard or two and fumbles. Free points for FSU. You just cannot do that in that situation.

When we were on offense, FSU's front 4 dominated the game and disrupted everything we tried to do for much of the game. Meanwhile, as expected, FSU used its big, physical CB's to play aggressive bump and run coverage against our much smaller receivers. Kudos to Renfree and Vernon for somehow hooking up several times despite that. Cooper had a solid game as well. The Varner injury hurt, but at least some of the young talented receivers got valuable playing time and made the most of it. We are very deep and talented at the receiver positions.

A tough day, and hopes of the big upset were dashed early. The guys are going to have to suck it up and keep working. The schedule is tough, but it will be interesting to see how they bounce back from laying an egg. We are long overdue to beat Wake. Would be a nice way to heal the wound from today.

Wander
10-15-2011, 07:49 PM
Wake Forest is winnable. I know that they beat FSU, but they're a better matchup for us - and I think FSU is better than Wake anyway. Our defense doesn't have the athletes to go up against teams that can just overwhelm us with pure talent.

Greg_Newton
10-15-2011, 08:49 PM
-The punting game.

-The FSU women.

-The spacious seating in the 2nd half.

-The lack of traffic when leaving the game late in the 4th.

-The amusing, apparent drunkenness of the sideline judge, who didn't seem to plan his sentences out in his head before transferring them to his mouth.

-The professional dancers we planted in the crowd for the big-screen cam during timeouts.

-The return of that nice relaxed, resigned, tension-free environment in the Wade... just like old times!

-The favor we did the ACC in general by getting FSU back on track, full of confidence and swagger.

;)



....................:(

devildeac
10-15-2011, 09:16 PM
-The punting game.

-The FSU women.

-The spacious seating in the 2nd half.

-The lack of traffic when leaving the game late in the 4th.

-The amusing, apparent drunkenness of the sideline judge, who didn't seem to plan his sentences out in his head before transferring them to his mouth.

-The professional dancers we planted in the crowd for the big-screen cam during timeouts.

-The return of that nice relaxed, resigned, tension-free environment in the Wade... just like old times!

-The favor we did the ACC in general by getting FSU back on track, full of confidence and swagger.

;)



....................:(

More positives from today's FB game:

2094

and

2095

and

2096

Our taco bar and burritos were mighty tasty, too. As was the giant coconut cake and Key Lime bars and Key Lime Pie.:D

throatybeard
10-15-2011, 10:15 PM
It was easily the worst performance of the year for the team.

I didn't see the game today, but if it was worse than the Richmond game, that's really saying something.

-bdbd
10-15-2011, 11:51 PM
What makes you say that?

CDu Originally Posted by NYC Duke Fan
You beat me to the punch. Wake is beating Va Tech as I am writing.
Duke is not ready to play the better teams in the ACC
Unfortunately, I tend to agree. We just looked overmatched today. Granted, FSU has the talent to do that (they gave Oklahoma a very tough test). But we'll have Wake (who beat FSU and is currently beating Va Tech early), Va Tech (more athletic than us like FSU), Ga Tech, UVa (who just beat Ga Tech), and UNC. If we win two of those remaining games, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

=============

Do y'all NOT think that we are capable of beating Wake? Really?? Then why play?
Yes, Wake beat FSU -- a "down" FSU w/o their star QB (and a couple other key players), and Wake got several key breaks; whereas (for whatever reason) FSU came to Durham fired-up, focused and desperate for a win - not so last week in Winston-Salem, and Wake matched up well with FSU. But (1) Duke and Wake have similar talent levels (many would argue that Duke has had more recruiting success than Wake in recent years), (2) we match up better with them, (3) the game is in Durham, (4) Duke is generally getting healthier (and Wake is not), (5) I expect Duke to play with a chip on the shoulder after an ugly loss. So, no, I don't think Duke would be a favoritte, but this game is most certainly winable.

In fact, ignoring favorites/underdogs, there's maybe only one or two of the remaining six where the overall talent levels are in the neighborhood as today's opponent. IIRC, FSU has had some monster-rated recruiting hauls in the last 2-3 years - maybe best in the ACC overall. And the flipside of CDu's post: Didn't three of those six remainders also LOSE today?!? :confused: Mark my words, we are not done with our wins for this year.

Oct. 22 Wake Forest TBA
Oct. 29 Virginia Tech TBA
Nov. 5 at Miami-FL TBA
Nov. 12 at Virginia TBA
Nov. 19 Georgia Tech TBA
Nov. 26 at North Carolina TBA

throatybeard
10-16-2011, 12:11 AM
It's disheartening to see the empty stands on a beautiful day and our team riding a 3 game win streak.

Attendance reported at 24,687.

I have no idea what that means in terms of actual human beings in the seats. But I have been to games where the attendance figure in the box score was about double the apparent attendance.

uh_no
10-16-2011, 12:24 AM
Attendance reported at 24,687.

I have no idea what that means in terms of actual human beings in the seats. But I have been to games where the attendance figure in the box score was about double the apparent attendance.

The thing about our stadium is that the bottom of the U being the most empty makes it look more empty than it really is....if you moved all the empty seats to the ends of the horseshoe, it would look a lot more full. The other thing is the huge open "promenade" where, unlike other stadiums, its easy to just stand up there and hang out, eat food, mill around, and there are probbaly a couple thousand people up there at any give time.
The last thing is the student section, where much like in cameron, it is always listed as sold out because it technically is.

duke09hms
10-16-2011, 12:41 AM
It was easily the worse performance of the year for the team.

Remember RICHMOND, the loss that set our program back at least a year? The Duke program and fans can understand big losses to #6 Stanford and #5 FSU, but NOT losing to little Richmond. Now THAT was the worst performance of the year. We lost the turnover margin by far to a FCS team, today we were at least tied 2-2 to one of the best teams in the country (when they have their QB). I just threw up in my mouth thinking of the Richmond game, which led to me thinking of WHY we schedule such strong nonconference teams like Alabama last year, Stanford this year and next - games we had no chance of winning. Replace Stanford with a crap team like Memphis/Indiana or a weak non-BCS FBS team this year, and there's a good chance we'd be 5-1. We'd probably avoid more injuries as well. Just seems like we're TRYING to make it harder for us to get to a bowl.

Anyway, I find no shame in losing to FSU, one of the top teams in the country when they have their QB, which they did today. We are simply still not in the same class of size/strength/athleticism to compete in the trenches with the big boys. On O, our line got owned, giving up 5 sacks and allowing Sean to be pressured all game. It's a wonder he was even able to complete 60% of his passes. Maybe that's how Thad Lewis was able to stick in the NFL. Nothing develops a quick release like playing behind a good ol' Duke offensive line. Those sacks were also often at the worst possible times. Momentum-killers, like right after recovering an onside kick.

On D, our front seven (or six?) got owned, giving up 242 yds rushing on 45 carries (5.4 ypc). Although later on in the game, we were able to get some pressure on FSU, sacking EJ Manuel twice, by then it was too late. Manuel had all day to throw in the 1st quarter even when we brought extra men to blitz, leading to THREE 50+ yd completions in the 1st quarter (51, 50, 59). The game was over right there, 160 yds passing on 3 plays with FSU able to get 5 yds on the ground anytime they wanted to. I honestly don't know what we are worse at - the inability to pressure the QB, the inability to stop the run, or the inability to cover receivers. On some of those long pass plays, our DB was nowhere near the FSU receiver. Can we not get a good DB coach in here?

Our skill players can compete with any team in the country. But our O-line and entire defense would find even matches in the FCS. Makes me feel bad for Renfree, Scott, and our receivers.

It does make me wonder how Wake was able to hold their own in the lines with FSU. We've supposedly been out-recruiting Wake these last few years. Pessimistically, it means Cutcliffe is failing at recruiting and developing our linemen. Optimistically, it means FSU didnt give a crap against Wake and came out unfocused, while unfortunately playing with desperation and effort against us. Hopefully it's the latter.

Rough game for our boys today, I was predicting a 3 TD loss, so I'm overall not too disappointed. Good for Snyderwine to hit that 38-yder in the 1st quarter. Hopefully some of our guys will continue to heal. The Wake Forest game next week carries a much larger emotional investment and might be one of the last winnable games for us, so I hope we make good on another chance to end a looooong losing streak.

formerdukeathlete
10-16-2011, 05:40 AM
Wake Forest is winnable. I know that they beat FSU, but they're a better matchup for us - and I think FSU is better than Wake anyway. Our defense doesn't have the athletes to go up against teams that can just overwhelm us with pure talent.

To be realistic, imo we will be lucky to win another game this season. Take Wake. Look at the teams they have beaten this season and look at the teams we have beaten. Tulane absolutely was smoked by Army and now by UTEP. After beating Duke, Richmond has been beaten by New Hampshire, Towson, James Madison.

All the teams remaining on our schedule have out-recruited Duke since Cutcliffe has been our coach. So, we are to win based on what, our will or our coaching or our staff's unique ability to find under the radar diamonds in the rough? If we win one more game that will be encouraging.

Folks point to Wake, but Wake may be better coached than we are. Better in game adjustments. Folks say Virginia, because we have beaten them in the past. But, their recruiting has taken off to a new level the last couple of years, picking up a lot more upper tier talent who appear to be well-qualified academically. UVa will have a lot of talent on the field for us to contend with.

VPI, UM, GT and UNC will be long shots. We are going to beat UNC this year because, what, we dont like them, or we are due, or by sheer will and or coaching?

For the remainder of the season we will face well-coached teams which have better talent than Duke. That's the reality. If we win two of them, this will be a hopeful sign, but only if can capitalize on some success and improve our recruiting going forward.

CDu
10-16-2011, 07:31 AM
Do y'all NOT think that we are capable of beating Wake? Really?? Then why play?

Please point me to where I said we are incapable of beating Wake. I'm pretty sure I never said that. I just said (or I guess implied) that I expect us to lose that game. That doesn't mean I think we couldn't possibly win that game.


And the flipside of CDu's post: Didn't three of those six remainders also LOSE today?!? :confused:

Hard for three of them NOT to lose when they're all playing against each other: WF vs VT, UM vs UNC, UVa vs GT. There was a 100% chance that 3 of our future opponents would lose this weekend.


Mark my words, we are not done with our wins for this year.

Please point me to where I said we were done with our wins this year. I said if we win two more I'll be pleasantly surprised. I think we'll win one more, though.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-16-2011, 10:56 AM
It was disappointing for sure, and we did not play anywhere near our capability today. It was easily the worse performance of the year for the team. A few rationale observations. FSU is far better with Manuel than without. It is not even close really. FSU is also big, athletic, and fast. Duke is improving in size and speed, and the gap between our size and speed compared to the better teams, is not nearly as large as it was 4 years ago. Still, there is a gap there, and it hurt us today. Doesn't help that the defense has been decimated with injuries.

3 Pass completions over 50+ yards is really what broke the game open for FSU. All 3 balls were perfect throws from Manuel, and came after he had plenty of time to throw. At that point in the game, we were just not getting any pressure on him. In those first 20 to 25 minutes, everything went perfectly for FSU and terrible for Duke. Renfree had a couple of long throws during that stretch to open receivers but just missed them. Manuel did not miss. It makes a difference. A FSU punt lands on the 8 and dies on the 2 perfectly. We played bad during that stretch and Murphy's Law kicked in. Credit FSU for making plays, and blame Duke for not giving our best effort. Two plays come to mind as examples. Manuel fakes a handoff then runs right into 2 perfectly positioned Duke defenders. What should have been a sack for a loss turns into a big gain when he somehow jukes both guys and blows by them. Play number 2 came just before the half with us behind 24-3, and Desmond catches the swing pass for a nice gain. But instead of running out of bounds to stop the clock, he tries to battle for a meaningless yard or two and fumbles. Free points for FSU. You just cannot do that in that situation.

When we were on offense, FSU's front 4 dominated the game and disrupted everything we tried to do for much of the game. Meanwhile, as expected, FSU used its big, physical CB's to play aggressive bump and run coverage against our much smaller receivers. Kudos to Renfree and Vernon for somehow hooking up several times despite that. Cooper had a solid game as well. The Varner injury hurt, but at least some of the young talented receivers got valuable playing time and made the most of it. We are very deep and talented at the receiver positions.

A tough day, and hopes of the big upset were dashed early. The guys are going to have to suck it up and keep working. The schedule is tough, but it will be interesting to see how they bounce back from laying an egg. We are long overdue to beat Wake. Would be a nice way to heal the wound from today.
Very disappointing for sure. The tipped interception was a bad way to start, and there were several more passes tipped as the day went on. Renfree needs to learn how to avoid that. He's not too short to play QB and he's not inexperienced at this point.

We've gotten faster in the last three years, but we're still so much smaller on the lines than a team like FSU. By a significant margin. When our (now) starting center went down with an injury and we brought in the long snapper to play every down, he was so far over-matched by FSU's DL that it wasn't even watchable. To Renfree's credit he hung in there and gained valuable experience, but I think I would have put in the more mobile Boone (package) and gone with more roll out passing.

I heard from a radio report at the game that Varner had a hammy injury in the first half and that's why he didn't play in the 2nd. I have heard/read nothing today to confirm or update this.

I spoke with Kenny Anunike after the game. His surgery is scheduled in 2 or 3 weeks, and is hoping to get this year back as a medical redshirt and have 2 more years to play (2 years of grad school on scholarship - he'll graduate this spring!) He also said that Josh Snead is really anxious to play and he thinks he's healthy, but the coaches are being very cautious with him. He does have an injury similar to Kyrie's, though not as serious.

Yes, we can beat Wake. And we will.

Olympic Fan
10-16-2011, 11:58 AM
Just a few comments:

-- Just a terrible, terrible first half. Poor focus, poor effort, poor execution combined with an FSU that was focused, angry and got all the breaks. The game turned on those three 50-yard passes on three straight possessions. In all three cases, Duke got abbsolutely no pressure, allowing Manuel to sit back, wait for the receiver to open up deep, then delievered a perfect pass. He makes a BIG difference for that team. Losing him in the Oklahoma game (a game they were tied with six minutes to play) had a huge impact on their season.

-- The second half was better -- a lot more effort and a lot more success, although admittedly much of it came late against an FSU team that was largely coasting at that point. But opening with the onsides kick was great. yeah, they turned it over on downs, but when Duke finally did score, kicking and getting ANOTHER onsides kick was amazing.

-- I think the reason for the lopsided nature of the game can be summed up in two words: pass protection. FSU had it early, giving Manuel all day to find his deep receivers. Duke didn't -- FSU had five sacks, five hurries and five tipped passes. Against FIU, Renfree was able to stretch the field by going deep. He never had that chance against FSU because of the pass rush. Do you know how hard it is to throw short when the defense can play tight, confident that the QB will not have time to burn them deep?

-- Can't believe somebody is complaining about Duke being too conservative. Cut went for fourth down conversions FIVE times (making three). He tried three onside kicks (we got two). I don't know what the complaint is about the end of the half. Are you talking about with just about four minutes left. Duke, down 24-3, takes back to back sacks and faces a 4th-and-23 from its own 32. You complain about punting then? And it doesn't hurt. FSU gets a couple of first downs, but Duke gets a sack and forces a punt. Duke did get a stop! Crowder catches the punt at the Duke 16 with 53 seconds left.

Now here's where you might fault Cut -- but not for being conservative. Instead of running out the clock and being content with a 21-point deficit, he calls a swing pass on first down. Scott catches it and instead of running out of bounds for a 5-6 yard gain, he tries to fight for more yardage ... and he fumbles the ball away. Amazingly, the defenses stops FSU cold and forces a field goal. I really find it hard to believe anybody can complain about Cut being too conservative at the end of the half.

-- BRW, great job by Alex King. It should not go overlooked -- five punts for a 53.2 yard average. FSU had one decent punt return, but that one was partially negated by a block in the back. Great day for the punt team.

-- Agree that the Johnny Williams move to CB has been disappointing. When Cut made the move, he said Williams was a NFL-quality DB. Okay, last year, he was limited by a bunch of injuries. And he's been hobbled a bit this year. But I still haven't seen evidence that Williams is even an ACC-quality DB, much less a NFL player. On the other hand, Ross Cockrell, who came into such abuse last year (and deserved some of it as he learned on the job), has matured into a quality ACC corner. He's a sure tackler and an excellent cover guy. BTW, the three 50-yard completions Saturday, one was against Williams (not sure if he was supposed to get safety help, but it looked like he was beaten badly) and two came vs. Matt Daniels. On the first, it looked like Daniels was in perfect position, but when he turned to look back for the ball, the receiver got seperation.

-- I never expected Duke to beat FSU, although I am disappointed by the margin. Not going to get into a debate as to which was the worst loss -- let me say that Richmond was easily the most disappointing loss (no excuse for that one and if we had won it as we should, we'd still be in great shape for a bowl), but we might have actually played worse in the first half against FSU. Still, the future isn't bleak for this team. Not saying I expect or even predict a victory over Wake Forest, but it's certainly a reasonably possibility. Athletically, the two are not that far apart. It's been an amazing decade in the Duke-Wake series ... Wake wins every year, but every game comes down to one or two plays. Twice, we've missed chip shot game-winning field goals on the final play of regulation It would be nice to break that streak this year ... nice and possible (but clearly no certainty). I'll worry about the post-Wake games after we see what happens against Wake.

I would point out that the game last year that most resembled Saturday's debacle was Duke's 44-7 drubbing at Virginia Tech. If anything, we looked more impotent in Blacksburg than we did Saturday (just 208 yards total offense at VPI). A week later, Duke went to Navy and stunned the bowl-bound Middies and had 456 total yards in a 34-31 win. A week after that, we beat Virginia 55-48 .. three tight losses to BC, Georgia Tech and North Carolina followed, but we were in all three games to the end. Not saying that happens again, but I just mention this to point out that it's not farfetched to think that last Saurday's disaster was an aberration and not evidence that this is a terrible team.

-- I do worry about the injuries, especially now that our off-week is in the past. I also heard that Varner had a hamstrong problem. Hope that's not going to be a long-term problem. Harding and Tomlinson returned to the game and were out there when Duke played better late. That's good, but a lot of guys are playing banged up. Matt Daniels was playing on one leg (and a lot of guts). True, he got beat in coverage a couple of times, but he also led the team with 14 tackles (9 solo) and forced a fumble. Good to see Desmond Scott back in action -- maybe not 100 percent, but he made some nice moves (6.6 yards a carry).

To sum up ... Saturday's performance was hard to swallow, but it's not the end of the world ... or even the end of the season.

hudlow
10-16-2011, 12:08 PM
I'll have to say that was one of the best on sides kick I've ever seen.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-16-2011, 12:25 PM
Just a few comments:

-- Just a terrible, terrible first half. Poor focus, poor effort, poor execution combined with an FSU that was focused, angry and got all the breaks. The game turned on those three 50-yard passes on three straight possessions. In all three cases, Duke got abbsolutely no pressure, allowing Manuel to sit back, wait for the receiver to open up deep, then delievered a perfect pass. He makes a BIG difference for that team. Losing him in the Oklahoma game (a game they were tied with six minutes to play) had a huge impact on their season.

-- The second half was better -- a lot more effort and a lot more success, although admittedly much of it came late against an FSU team that was largely coasting at that point. But opening with the onsides kick was great. yeah, they turned it over on downs, but when Duke finally did score, kicking and getting ANOTHER onsides kick was amazing.

-- I think the reason for the lopsided nature of the game can be summed up in two words: pass protection. FSU had it early, giving Manuel all day to find his deep receivers. Duke didn't -- FSU had five sacks, five hurries and five tipped passes. Against FIU, Renfree was able to stretch the field by going deep. He never had that chance against FSU because of the pass rush. Do you know how hard it is to throw short when the defense can play tight, confident that the QB will not have time to burn them deep?

-- Can't believe somebody is complaining about Duke being too conservative. Cut went for fourth down conversions FIVE times (making three). He tried three onside kicks (we got two). I don't know what the complaint is about the end of the half. Are you talking about with just about four minutes left. Duke, down 24-3, takes back to back sacks and faces a 4th-and-23 from its own 32. You complain about punting then? And it doesn't hurt. FSU gets a couple of first downs, but Duke gets a sack and forces a punt. Duke did get a stop! Crowder catches the punt at the Duke 16 with 53 seconds left.

Now here's where you might fault Cut -- but not for being conservative. Instead of running out the clock and being content with a 21-point deficit, he calls a swing pass on first down. Scott catches it and instead of running out of bounds for a 5-6 yard gain, he tries to fight for more yardage ... and he fumbles the ball away. Amazingly, the defenses stops FSU cold and forces a field goal. I really find it hard to believe anybody can complain about Cut being too conservative at the end of the half.

-- BRW, great job by Alex King. It should not go overlooked -- five punts for a 53.2 yard average. FSU had one decent punt return, but that one was partially negated by a block in the back. Great day for the punt team.

-- Agree that the Johnny Williams move to CB has been disappointing. When Cut made the move, he said Williams was a NFL-quality DB. Okay, last year, he was limited by a bunch of injuries. And he's been hobbled a bit this year. But I still haven't seen evidence that Williams is even an ACC-quality DB, much less a NFL player. On the other hand, Ross Cockrell, who came into such abuse last year (and deserved some of it as he learned on the job), has matured into a quality ACC corner. He's a sure tackler and an excellent cover guy. BTW, the three 50-yard completions Saturday, one was against Williams (not sure if he was supposed to get safety help, but it looked like he was beaten badly) and two came vs. Matt Daniels. On the first, it looked like Daniels was in perfect position, but when he turned to look back for the ball, the receiver got seperation.

-- I never expected Duke to beat FSU, although I am disappointed by the margin. Not going to get into a debate as to which was the worst loss -- let me say that Richmond was easily the most disappointing loss (no excuse for that one and if we had won it as we should, we'd still be in great shape for a bowl), but we might have actually played worse in the first half against FSU. Still, the future isn't bleak for this team. Not saying I expect or even predict a victory over Wake Forest, but it's certainly a reasonably possibility. Athletically, the two are not that far apart. It's been an amazing decade in the Duke-Wake series ... Wake wins every year, but every game comes down to one or two plays. Twice, we've missed chip shot game-winning field goals on the final play of regulation It would be nice to break that streak this year ... nice and possible (but clearly no certainty). I'll worry about the post-Wake games after we see what happens against Wake.

I would point out that the game last year that most resembled Saturday's debacle was Duke's 44-7 drubbing at Virginia Tech. If anything, we looked more impotent in Blacksburg than we did Saturday (just 208 yards total offense at VPI). A week later, Duke went to Navy and stunned the bowl-bound Middies and had 456 total yards in a 34-31 win. A week after that, we beat Virginia 55-48 .. three tight losses to BC, Georgia Tech and North Carolina followed, but we were in all three games to the end. Not saying that happens again, but I just mention this to point out that it's not farfetched to think that last Saurday's disaster was an aberration and not evidence that this is a terrible team.

-- I do worry about the injuries, especially now that our off-week is in the past. I also heard that Varner had a hamstrong problem. Hope that's not going to be a long-term problem. Harding and Tomlinson returned to the game and were out there when Duke played better late. That's good, but a lot of guys are playing banged up. Matt Daniels was playing on one leg (and a lot of guts). True, he got beat in coverage a couple of times, but he also led the team with 14 tackles (9 solo) and forced a fumble. Good to see Desmond Scott back in action -- maybe not 100 percent, but he made some nice moves (6.6 yards a carry).

To sum up ... Saturday's performance was hard to swallow, but it's not the end of the world ... or even the end of the season.
Thank you! Your summary and analysis are overall the most realistic, yet hopeful, I've read so far. Rebuilding in football is very, very difficult. Rebuilding in basketball, for example, does not compare.

When Coach Cutcliffe first arrived, he spent a lot of energy interacting with people in all sorts of venues to build up interest in attending and upgrading the actual game day atmosphere. During the Devil Walks the first few years, he was glad-handing like the best candidate running for office. This season he has been transforming from the guy hyping the crowd to a coach on a mission, very focused on the game and getting started with his game plan. Wallace Wade called it "the look" I think.

The transformation of the program is not going as fast as any of us would like. It's as if we've been in the desert and are so dehydrated that no amount of water seems to satisfy. Loyalty is sometimes wears thin. I look to Curtis Mayfield and The Impressions for my inspiration: "Keep on Pushing."

*Speaking of Matt Daniels, I understand that in addition to the injury he was battling, he had a fever of 102 on Thursday. It takes a pretty tough guy to play under those conditions.

jimsumner
10-16-2011, 01:12 PM
Thank you! Your summary and analysis are overall the most realistic, yet hopeful, I've read so far. Rebuilding in football is very, very difficult. Rebuilding in basketball, for example, does not compare.

When Coach Cutcliffe first arrived, he spent a lot of energy interacting with people in all sorts of venues to build up interest in attending and upgrading the actual game day atmosphere. During the Devil Walks the first few years, he was glad-handing like the best candidate running for office. This season he has been transforming from the guy hyping the crowd to a coach on a mission, very focused on the game and getting started with his game plan. Wallace Wade called it "the look" I think.

The transformation of the program is not going as fast as any of us would like. It's as if we've been in the desert and are so dehydrated that no amount of water seems to satisfy. Loyalty is sometimes wears thin. I look to Curtis Mayfield and The Impressions for my inspiration: "Keep on Pushing."

*Speaking of Matt Daniels, I understand that in addition to the injury he was battling, he had a fever of 102 on Thursday. It takes a pretty tough guy to play under those conditions.

Cut said after the game that he did not expect either Daniels or Harding to play. Both deserve kudos for toughing it out.

He also implied that redshirting Snead is still an option. Something along the lines of "we've got to figure out what to do" with Snead.

He also suggested that Moore might not be ready for a few more weeks. They've got to make sure his arm is completely healed. Moore has already redshirted once, so another is not an option.

As for Wake, the transitive property rarely works in sports. FSU was much tougher and much more focused against Duke than they were against Wake. I wouldn't take comparative scores as a sign that Duke can't beat the Deacs.

A healthy Manuel made a huge difference. Put FSU's backup QB against a healthy Duke defense and maybe we have a game. Instead we have FSU's starting QB against Duke's beat-up defense. There was one absolutely stunning stat from the game. Renfree attempted 43 passes. Manuel attempted 14. Manuel had more passing yards out of those 14 passes than Renfree had out of his 43 passes. Mull that one over for awhile.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-16-2011, 01:44 PM
Cut said after the game that he did not expect either Daniels or Harding to play. Both deserve kudos for toughing it out.

He also implied that redshirting Snead is still an option. Something along the lines of "we've got to figure out what to do" with Snead.

He also suggested that Moore might not be ready for a few more weeks. They've got to make sure his arm is completely healed. Moore has already redshirted once, so another is not an option.

As for Wake, the transitive property rarely works in sports. FSU was much tougher and much more focused against Duke than they were against Wake. I wouldn't take comparative scores as a sign that Duke can't beat the Deacs.

A healthy Manuel made a huge difference. Put FSU's backup QB against a healthy Duke defense and maybe we have a game. Instead we have FSU's starting QB against Duke's beat-up defense. There was one absolutely stunning stat from the game. Renfree attempted 43 passes. Manuel attempted 14. Manuel had more passing yards out of those 14 passes than Renfree had out of his 43 passes. Mull that one over for awhile.
Jim, your insights and comments about our players with injuries are right on the money and a good reminder of reality. It's so easy for fans to get caught up in what we think we know at a distance. The efforts put forth by many players yesterday, particularly Daniels and Harding, were significant even if the results weren't what we'd hoped for.

Every game brings a new opportunity for greatness. I look forward to hosting Wake and just maybe putting an end to their streak against Duke.

I listened to the Wake game on my way home last night. In the first quarter or so when Wake was leading VA Tech 10 to zip, I began to think that they'd returned to the form that served them so well just a few years back. When VA Tech finally had had enough and began to put a clinic, I thought..... we can beat Wake!

Devilsfan
10-16-2011, 02:12 PM
I love what strides we have made in football. I believe we could not have a better HC. We run a clean program, a rarity these days. I hope we bounce back and beat Wake next week. What happened to the team that played FIU? I started to get excited about our chances the rest of this year. Let's show all the returning players how proud we can be about a Coach Cut team!

jafarr1
10-16-2011, 03:44 PM
Moore could still qualify for a medical hardship, correct? I would suspect a broken arm would qualify him for that.

jimsumner
10-16-2011, 04:06 PM
Moore could still qualify for a medical hardship, correct? I would suspect a broken arm would qualify him for that.

He took a non-injury redshirt as a freshman. Under rare circumstances the NCAA will grant a second redshirt but almost always only if both were injury redshirts.

Most offensive linemen routinely sit out their freshmen seasons. One of the downsides of that is that you lose the injury redshirt option down the road.

Reilly
10-17-2011, 09:13 AM
... -- Agree that the Johnny Williams move to CB has been disappointing. When Cut made the move, he said Williams was a NFL-quality DB. Okay, last year, he was limited by a bunch of injuries. And he's been hobbled a bit this year. But I still haven't seen evidence that Williams is even an ACC-quality DB, much less a NFL player. ....

Olyfan, agree with 99% of what you wrote. One small quibble with respect to the language above: I don't recall Cut ever saying JW was an NFL-quality corner. What I recall was more along the lines of "we moved Player X at Ole Miss from WR to CB, and he's now in the NFL; and I think maybe JW's body is better suited to be a CB than a WR" ... something like that. I think we all thought it was a longshot for JW to be super-successful at CB (Cut included) and Cut was putting the best spin on it, but I don't believe he ever said JW as an NFL-quality corner. What amazes me is that JW *is* a starting CB for Duke: how a converted WR is presumably better than the other guys recruited for that position and who have been playing it throughout their Duke years ....

jimsumner
10-17-2011, 10:31 AM
Olyfan, agree with 99% of what you wrote. One small quibble with respect to the language above: I don't recall Cut ever saying JW was an NFL-quality corner. What I recall was more along the lines of "we moved Player X at Ole Miss from WR to CB, and he's now in the NFL; and I think maybe JW's body is better suited to be a CB than a WR" ... something like that. I think we all thought it was a longshot for JW to be super-successful at CB (Cut included) and Cut was putting the best spin on it, but I don't believe he ever said JW as an NFL-quality corner. What amazes me is that JW *is* a starting CB for Duke: how a converted WR is presumably better than the other guys recruited for that position and who have been playing it throughout their Duke years ....

I'm pretty sure Cut spoke positively about Williams' NFL potential at a number of media events. Not a guarantee but something more along the lines of he's-got-a-chance. Certainly, he's been injured enough since the switch, that we have some wiggle room here. But JW was a pretty good WR as a soph. Given Austin Kelly's struggles last season and Braxton's struggles this season, it's hard not to wonder what if. I think the best we can give this move is an incomplete.

Then again, the move may say more about the relative strengths of the two positions than the relative abilities of Williams.

Reilly
10-17-2011, 10:41 AM
Jim, I guess I'd like to see the Cut quote about JW and NFL CB potential.

This is all I could find ("We'll see how Johnny does").

What I do recall is Cut talking about the player who he switched at Ole Miss who made the NFL, I believe (if I could recall that player's name, then maybe the google machine would help find other JW quotes):

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/9768/dukes-williams-making-the-transition-to-corner

Well see how Johnny does, Cutcliffe said. Hes a starter on Day 1 as a corner. We can be more athletic and deeper there. We redshirted a lot of young men there, so Im real excited about some competition at all of the positions in the secondary.

jimsumner
10-17-2011, 10:53 AM
Jim, I guess I'd like to see the Cut quote about JW and NFL CB potential.

This is all I could find ("We'll see how Johnny does").

What I do recall is Cut talking about the player who he switched at Ole Miss who made the NFL, I believe (if I could recall that player's name, then maybe the google machine would help find other JW quotes):

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/9768/dukes-williams-making-the-transition-to-corner

Well see how Johnny does, Cutcliffe said. Hes a starter on Day 1 as a corner. We can be more athletic and deeper there. We redshirted a lot of young men there, so Im real excited about some competition at all of the positions in the secondary.

Reilly, you'll just to accept that I was in the room.

Reilly
10-17-2011, 11:06 AM
Jim, I accept that you were in the room. Just would like to see Cut's actual words. I recall reading about the JW switch and Cut noting the other positive (NFL) result of a similar switch, but didn't read that to mean Cut believed JW had NFL CB potential ... would like to see his exact words if he ever made a more direct prediction of JW's future (that I don't recall ever reading), that's all.

jimsumner
10-17-2011, 11:23 AM
Jim, I accept that you were in the room. Just would like to see Cut's actual words. I recall reading about the JW switch and Cut noting the other positive (NFL) result of a similar switch, but didn't read that to mean Cut believed JW had NFL CB potential ... would like to see his exact words if he ever made a more direct prediction of JW's future (that I don't recall ever reading), that's all.

My wife remembers telling me lots of things that I don't recall and can't find on Google. So, I guess there are limitations. :)

budwom
10-17-2011, 11:46 AM
With all due respect, Olympic, to say the outcome was lopsided due to two words, pass protection, really sugarcoats things.

The two words i'd use are better talent. FSU is simply bigger, stronger and faster at just about every position. Their DL, LBs and DBs are far, far better than ours. It's not remotely close.
For certain things could have been somewhat better with a pass rush, but we've been saying that for years now. Our DL is just not that good (though they're OK vs the run much of the time).
We'll get a better pass rush when we have more talent, just as we'll win more games when we have more talent.

I know we've made some major improvements to the program, but when we line up against a team of athletes like FSU has, our shortcomings are obvious.

I'll be happy to be proved wrong when we play Va. Tech and Miami (and to a lesser extent UNC and Ga Tech). I don't see how we can match their talent at this point.

First of all let's see how we do vs. Wake. We count them as a likely or potential win every year, yet we haven't beat them in a decade.

chrishoke
10-17-2011, 11:51 AM
It is so hard to be a long time loyal and supoportive Duke football fan. That first half waas painful.

CameronBlue
10-17-2011, 12:09 PM
It is so hard to be a long time loyal and supoportive Duke football fan. That first half waas painful.

Duke football reminds me of a line attributed to CS Lewis in William Nicholson's play "Shadowlands". To paraphrase: "The presence of pain in the world wakes us up to the existence of God." That could be a good marketing slogan to increase ticket sales: "God hasn't forsaken Duke football. Why have you?"

You're a better person for the experience.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-17-2011, 12:38 PM
It is so hard to be a long time loyal and supportive Duke football fan. That first half was painful.
You are so wrong about this. chrishoke, I hope you are saying that you are STILL are a loyal and supportive Duke football fan but that you are in pain, so I am not so much addressing you as I am many others. Yes, it is painful. Yes, it may turn your stomach at times, and it certainly gets frustrating. I hate losing just as much as you do, or anyone else does. BUT - Duke is MY alma mater. It is MY team, MY school. I root for them through good times and bad, and because I enjoy being with people of a like mind, and the friends I have made over the years, I come to the games and root my butt off game after game, year after year, and have a damn good time doing it. Just like I did as an undergrad when the basketball team was last in the ACC every year, barely winning 10 or 11 games per season and had a losing record every year. Sure, I'd love for us to go 12-0, and eventually we will. Or might. Or might not. But as long as I can afford to come out and support MY team and have the health to do so, my fanny will be in my seat supporting MY team. And it sickens me that there were as close to ZERO STUDENTS at last Saturday's game. We had a three game winning streak. We were playing Florida State, a perennial top 10 team that had a 3 game losing streak and maybe, just maybe, we were catching them at the right time to beat them. And because the poor little baby students lost their precious drunken tailgate of years past they didn't come out and support their fellow student athletes on the most glorious weather day for football they'll ever see. Kudos to Native, this year's Freshman student body president, Rolvix, and the other couple of dozen students that were there, and of course to DUMB and the cheerleaders who did a fine job! Oh, and while I'm on my soap box, it's not just the students, I'm calling out Crazy Towel Guy too, the so called "#1 Duke fan". He's selling his tickets in the parking lot before the games and not going to the games anymore. He spoke with me in Blue Devil Alley on Saturday, showed me the tickets he was selling. Claims he's fed up too. Herb - get your butt back into Wallace Wade Stadium - you are FOS; it's not becoming of you.

formerdukeathlete
10-17-2011, 01:21 PM
You are so wrong about this. chrishoke, I hope you are saying that you are STILL are a loyal and supportive Duke football fan but that you are in pain, so I am not so much addressing you as I am many others. Yes, it is painful. Yes, it may turn your stomach at times, and it certainly gets frustrating. I hate losing just as much as you do, or anyone else does. BUT - Duke is MY alma mater. It is MY team, MY school. I root for them through good times and bad, and because I enjoy being with people of a like mind, and the friends I have made over the years, I come to the games and root my butt off game after game, year after year, and have a damn good time doing it. Just like I did as an undergrad when the basketball team was last in the ACC every year, barely winning 10 or 11 games per season and had a losing record every year. Sure, I'd love for us to go 12-0, and eventually we will. Or might. Or might not. But as long as I can afford to come out and support MY team and have the health to do so, my fanny will be in my seat supporting MY team. And it sickens me that there were as close to ZERO STUDENTS at last Saturday's game. We had a three game winning streak. We were playing Florida State, a perennial top 10 team that had a 3 game losing streak and maybe, just maybe, we were catching them at the right time to beat them. And because the poor little baby students lost their precious drunken tailgate of years past they didn't come out and support their fellow student athletes on the most glorious weather day for football they'll ever see. Kudos to Native, this year's Freshman student body president, Rolvix, and the other couple of dozen students that were there, and of course to DUMB and the cheerleaders who did a fine job! Oh, and while I'm on my soap box, it's not just the students, I'm calling out Crazy Towel Guy too, the so called "#1 Duke fan". He's selling his tickets in the parking lot before the games and not going to the games anymore. He spoke with me in Blue Devil Alley on Saturday, showed me the tickets he was selling. Claims he's fed up too. Herb - get your butt back into Wallace Wade Stadium - you are FOS; it's not becoming of you.

To paraphrase a line from the Ryan Reynolds movie, Just Friends, Ryan Reynolds to Anna Faris, when he really wanted Amy Smart, "You cant torture sombody into liking you." :)

The admin knixed Trailgate and imposed a new regime (which is designed to encourage / force attendance ) and this is still resented and in protest or otherwise, the kids are just not going along.

A few other factors. Football players are more isolated from the rest of the student body than they were when we were in school and fewer of them are taking mainstream majors such as Economics, Public Policy Studies, Engineering. They do not interact among the student body as much as they used to. I dont believe they are allowed to join fraternities, at least Basketball players are not. Academic support, even classes are held within the Athletic Complex, such as the Roloff class in the K Center. Another factor, arguably, is the larger international component of the student body and the geek factor as a general matter. 10% of the class are varsity athletes. Football with all the walksons is less than 2% of the class, and the other 8% plus varsity athletes have real demands timewise and may not relish going to a Football game over say the other sport of their choice.

I dont blame the students. I do blame the loss to Richmond to a degree. That, coupled with the punitive measures re Tailgate, just depleted interest levels.

Reilly
10-17-2011, 01:29 PM
I was wondering where "Superfan" has been (what CTG used to be called). Was afraid he was ill. Glad he's healthy. Hope he cheers again.

Ozzie, that's distressing to hear about the student attendance. I was fearful of the turnout for the following reason: I believe it was the first weekend back after Fall break, and that's when students start feeling the pressure, and when those who've enjoyed the first six weeks of school realize they need to put it into gear. That, and the fact that any limited athletic support capital might be expended on Friday night at CTC, made me fearful. Also, the sense of futility against a two-TD favorite who had beaten us all 16 times we've played by an average of 35 points. I went to every home game as an undergrad; I would hope others would do the same. And one would hope the great weather and 3-game winning streak would be that much more enticing. But I had my doubts given the timing. The next two weeks at 12:30 pm start times don't bode well either ...

Scorp4me
10-17-2011, 03:16 PM
The admin knixed Trailgate and imposed a new regime (which is designed to encourage / force attendance ) and this is still resented and in protest or otherwise, the kids are just not going along.

No offense, but bull crap! They needed to "knix" tailgate. It was a bigger embarrassment to the school than the students not showing up. I said a few years back we should simply give up on the current student body, they were a lost cause. I received some flack for it, but walking to the Stanford game I remember thinking...wow, this is one of the first time I've passed the students and thought...I could have really enjoyed it here. Yeap, that's right, I'm a fan not an alumni and that doesn't give me any less right to bicker and complain. The fact is that group of students was so used to losing and simply dressing up like idiots and getting drunk that there was no winning them back. Since Cut has began coaching I think those students have passed on and more have taken their spot. I've seen flashes from them, much like I have from the football team. I'm not sure it's an either or but rather a together. As the football team improves the students improve. Right now I'd say they are a 3-3 student section, but they're a whole lot better than they used to be.

The fact is the administration did what had to do. Cut their short term losses for long term success. I for one am rooting for the administration, the fans, the students, and the football team to going on another winning streak!

Sorry after rereading my post I wanted to apologize fda. My ire was not directed at you, but at the student situation of the past...which as I mentioned is improving I think.

chrishoke
10-17-2011, 03:32 PM
You are so wrong about this. chrishoke, I hope you are saying that you are STILL are a loyal and supportive Duke football fan but that you are in pain, so I am not so much addressing you as I am many others. Yes, it is painful. Yes, it may turn your stomach at times, and it certainly gets frustrating. I hate losing just as much as you do, or anyone else does. BUT - Duke is MY alma mater. It is MY team, MY school. I root for them through good times and bad, and because I enjoy being with people of a like mind, and the friends I have made over the years, I come to the games and root my butt off game after game, year after year, and have a damn good time doing it. Just like I did as an undergrad when the basketball team was last in the ACC every year, barely winning 10 or 11 games per season and had a losing record every year. Sure, I'd love for us to go 12-0, and eventually we will. Or might. Or might not. But as long as I can afford to come out and support MY team and have the health to do so, my fanny will be in my seat supporting MY team. And it sickens me that there were as close to ZERO STUDENTS at last Saturday's game. We had a three game winning streak. We were playing Florida State, a perennial top 10 team that had a 3 game losing streak and maybe, just maybe, we were catching them at the right time to beat them. And because the poor little baby students lost their precious drunken tailgate of years past they didn't come out and support their fellow student athletes on the most glorious weather day for football they'll ever see. Kudos to Native, this year's Freshman student body president, Rolvix, and the other couple of dozen students that were there, and of course to DUMB and the cheerleaders who did a fine job! Oh, and while I'm on my soap box, it's not just the students, I'm calling out Crazy Towel Guy too, the so called "#1 Duke fan". He's selling his tickets in the parking lot before the games and not going to the games anymore. He spoke with me in Blue Devil Alley on Saturday, showed me the tickets he was selling. Claims he's fed up too. Herb - get your butt back into Wallace Wade Stadium - you are FOS; it's not becoming of you.

Good post. By the way, when I said that I was a loyal and supportive fan, I meant it. I've been a season ticket holder for more than 50 years (my younger years with my dad). I will die a Duke football fan. Bob Harris just celebrated his 400th football game as Duke's radio guy. I was at his first game, in 1976 in Neyland Stadium against Tennessee. As for CTG, he can kiss my butt.

CameronBlue
10-17-2011, 04:23 PM
As for CTG, he can kiss my butt.

I'd hold out for dinner and a movie first.

throatybeard
10-17-2011, 05:20 PM
Duke football reminds me of a line attributed to CS Lewis in William Nicholson's play "Shadowlands". To paraphrase: "The presence of pain in the world wakes us up to the existence of God." That could be a good marketing slogan to increase ticket sales: "God hasn't forsaken Duke football. Why have you?"

You're a better person for the experience.

Duke Football: A Grief Observed.

ForkFondler
10-17-2011, 08:28 PM
The first quarter and attendance were disappointing, but...

I would have felt much better about our chances had FSU had 0 turnovers and smoked Wake the week before. Instead, they had a 5-0 turnover disadvantage (which was largely attributable to a rusty quarterback) and still barely lost. They came in feeling they had no margin for error and showed it.

Next week is another story.

sagegrouse
10-17-2011, 09:13 PM
I dont blame the students. I do blame the loss to Richmond to a degree. That, coupled with the punitive measures re Tailgate, just depleted interest levels.

I am sorry, FDA, but this is unacceptable tripe. "Punitive measures" were against a dangerous event that was not producing fans at the football game, just drunken students in the parking lot. And the "loss to Richmond" is not a moral failure but a call to action for the fans.

Students have full control over their free time, and I am happy to join Ozzie in urging them to show up for football games.

sagegrouse

"Would some kind soul convert 'sly' to 'sky?'"

uh_no
10-17-2011, 09:22 PM
I am sorry, FDA, but this is unacceptable tripe. "Punitive measures" were against a dangerous event that was not producing fans at the football game, just drunken students in the parking lot. And the "loss to Richmond" is not a moral failure but a call to action for the fans.

Students have full control over their free time, and I am happy to join Ozzie in urging them to show up for football games.

sagegrouse

"Would some kind soul convert 'sly' to 'sky?'"

i would argue that tailgate actually produced SOME fans....as a % (however small it may be) of people at tailgate went to the game to sober up....now those folks have no incentive to get out of bed at all.....

Don't read this as me being a proponent of tailgate, just that the logic that it reduced attendance doesn't really follow

ForkFondler
10-17-2011, 09:45 PM
And the "loss to Richmond" is not a moral failure but a call to action for the fans.


I dunno. The missed field goal with a minute plus was torture-likely-to-require-years-of-recovery. The tonic was the BC missed chip shot miracle. But, I wasn't at either game. Anyway, beat Wake, damn it.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2011, 07:34 AM
I am sorry, FDA, but this is unacceptable tripe. "Punitive measures" were against a dangerous event that was not producing fans at the football game, just drunken students in the parking lot. And the "loss to Richmond" is not a moral failure but a call to action for the fans.

Students have full control over their free time, and I am happy to join Ozzie in urging them to show up for football games.

sagegrouse

"Would some kind soul convert 'sly' to 'sky?'"
I have to agree on this comment, sage. Not only was the event dangerous, the public drunkenness was embarrassing and disgusting..... and you know that I know what a good party is like, especially for collegians.

As the Tailgate would disburse, many of the "fall down drunks" would wonder through the parking lots where the rest of us were. The upchucking and fall to the pavement condition was becoming the face of the student body to those outside the university.

mkline09
10-18-2011, 07:51 AM
I have to agree on this comment, sage. Not only was the event dangerous, the public drunkenness was embarrassing and disgusting..... and you know that I know what a good party is like, especially for collegians.

As the Tailgate would disburse, many of the "fall down drunks" would wonder through the parking lots where the rest of us were. The upchucking and fall to the pavement condition was becoming the face of the student body to those outside the university.

Piggie backing on that, I thought the students dressed in costumes last year during the Alabama game were kind of embarrasing. I overheard more than a few Bama fans comment on how silly that was and looked. Turnout was great and don't get me wrong I don't necessarily care what Alabama fans think, but I think the younger kids need to learn more about cheering at football games and not focus so much on how they look. In football it isn't so much about how crazy the fans look and act as it is how loud they can get the stadium. Of course that being said if they show up in bear suits it wouldn't matter if they would just show up. Tailgate just gave the kids an excuse to party and drink but like everyone has said the kids didn't show up to the game either because they didn't care about it or they were just too drunk to make it.

Unfortunately I think Duke football is in a phase where the students are like win or we aren't coming, though at the Tulane game, kids were leaving at the half and Duke was winning, big. Getting the kids interested in football is a unique challenge when many (not all) don't seem to be patient enough to wait for a winning program to surface. They want it now, now, now and that just isn't the case in football. It takes a while.

formerdukeathlete
10-18-2011, 09:00 AM
i would argue that tailgate actually produced SOME fans....as a % (however small it may be) of people at tailgate went to the game to sober up....now those folks have no incentive to get out of bed at all.....

Don't read this as me being a proponent of tailgate, just that the logic that it reduced attendance doesn't really follow

What I have taken in reading what proponents and opponents alike have had to say about Tailgate was that it was a campus wide party where students of all social affiliations and independents would mix, widely enjoyed and appreciated among students. Opponents objected for this or that reason, but could not cite anything close to a majority of students opposed to Tailgatge. A 15 year old sibling of a student snuck in, threw up drinking too much, and, rather than going back to the dorm room to sleep it off, paramedics were called and the 15 year old was taken to the emergency room. This was cited as the reason to ban Tailgate. With such support among students, it was very certain that banning Tailgate would not have been well received. I agree with you. Some (quite a few) students who may have gone over to the game after being at Tailgate for a while, just dont make the trip at all.

Richmond was a huge disappointment because it undermined the credibility of what we were building in Football. With Midnight Madness and the onset of Basketball season, with the disappointment against Richmond at home to start the season, with no campus wide party in proximity of the Stadium, with the need to buckle down academically, students asked themselves why make the trip over for the game?

I too would like to students make the game and for there to be excellent student attendance.

Duke recruits top flight students who also are accepted at other top 10 universities. In the past, when we have yielded a student also accepted to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT or Stanford, student life, party scene and D-1 sports were cited as reasons for picking Duke over these schools. In the past, when Football players also recruited by top tier programs and the other academic BCS schools pcked Duke they have mentioned reasons such as reasonably good party scene, weather. They have commented that they could play BCS football, receive a top flight education and have a pretty good time while doing it.

I believe our yield among jointly accepted students versus H,Y,P,MIT, Stanford was higher when Brodie was President than it is today. I attribute this to the assualt against work hard play hard at Duke which began with Nan. The irony is, that Tailgate, so dispised by some Duke alums because it was perceived as a distraction from home games, in providng a campus wide social outlet, improved the social scene on campus and thereby indirectly helped Football. It made attending Duke a bit more of a good time overall. Another irony, banning Tailgate, in order to curtail work hard play hard, in order to make the place more reflective, more intellectual, continuing to assault work hard play hard, actually hurts our ability to recruit top flight students who are also admitted to other top tier universities. Banning tailgate, as in assaulting work hard play hard in general, indirectly hurts the quality of our applicant pool and who ultimately matriculates. And, those who do matriculate may be less well-rounded, less social, and less interested in sports in the first place.

During Spurrier's 89 season, a NYT article

'But it is difficult recruiting sufficient numbers of talented players, especially on defense, to compete both on the field and in the classroom.

''For some reason, and I don't have the answer, offensive players are more academically oriented,'' said Spurrier. ''I don't know why that is, but that seems to be the way the personality traits fall into place.''
...........

At one stage against Clemson, Duke fielded only four defenders who weighed more than 200 pounds. ''Effort and emotion got us through that Clemson game on defense,'' said Spurrier, whose team rallied from a 14-0 halftime deficit while holding the defending A.C.C. champions to 95 yards in the second half.

The upset greatly enhanced the confidence of a squad seeking its second straight winning season, a modest achievment Duke has managed only once over the past 17 years.'

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/07/sports/duke-is-looking-smart-in-football-too.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


It helped Spurrier that Steve Sloan had recruited well with Tommy Limbaugh and a recruiting budget increased by Tom Butters to recruit nationally.


'One of Tommy's biggest successes was having 2 top-10 recruiting classes at Duke in football. Steve Spurrier took those recruits as the nucleus of the 1989 Duke Football team and propelled them to the ACC Championship. That is the only time Duke has won an ACC Championship in 43 years!' http://www.4umanagement.com/Workshops/

Duke was a better time socially back then, and our Football teams had higher academic requirements than they do know. In an effort to recruit more talent, Cutcliffe went local and with lowered academic standards. And, we have not recruited, not close to the same levels of talent. Stanford today is recruiting at those levels. Duke can as well, with the right approach, maybe the right coach (as in, as much as we like him, maybe Cut is not the guy). When we recruit at these levels we can beat Florida State and Va Tech, even with higher academic standards.

-jk
10-18-2011, 10:02 AM
A 15 year old sibling of a student snuck in, threw up drinking too much, and, rather than going back to the dorm room to sleep it off, paramedics were called and the 15 year old was taken to the emergency room.

Without getting into the specifics of the rest of your post (and the drinking age moving from 18 to 21 since spurrier started coaching at Duke), the 15 year old kid in question didn't just throw up. He was found passed-out-drunk in a port-a-potty. Whoever was responsible for sneaking him into Tailgate abandoned him. That was the final straw for the university.

For good or ill, times change, and Duke has had to change with them.

-jk

Kewlswim
10-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Without getting into the specifics of the rest of your post (and the drinking age moving from 18 to 21 since spurrier started coaching at Duke), the 15 year old kid in question didn't just throw up. He was found passed-out-drunk in a port-a-potty. Whoever was responsible for sneaking him into Tailgate abandoned him. That was the final straw for the university.

For good or ill, times change, and Duke has had to change with them.

-jk

Hello,

I never did know or really care what the final straw was because I thought that the whole drunken mess seemed unbecoming and quite dangerous. Now that I know, I applaud the University even more for getting rid of it. Furthermore, winning will bring kids back. There is plenty of room on my bandwagon for anyone who wants to root for Duke Football. I believe, without any reservation, in Duke Football. I won't give an inch and feel horrible when we (hope it is ok to use the word "we" here) lose and happy when we win. Our golden light will shine--it is just a matter of time.

GO DUKE!

OZZIE4DUKE
10-18-2011, 02:16 PM
FDA, Tailgate, as it had evolved, was nothing more than a poor excuse for a drunken Roman orgy and unfortunately it had little or nothing to do with football other than it occurred on Saturday mornings. It was an abomination, and as _jk pointed out, a 15 year old, who had no business being there, but yet was the responsibility of the University because he was, damn near died. The students at Duke today need to get over it, come up with some new ideas, and start supporting THEIR football team. I don't buy the lame excuses being offered about academics or lack of interest in football in general precluding ALL the students from attending. Some, yes, indeed, but not the large significant numbers that aren't attending. Wh have had the exact same discussion last year, so often, in fact, that it needs it's own code in an updated HPR, say
7) k) Student attendance at games is pathetic. What can we do to get the student body to attend football games?

Scorp4me
10-18-2011, 02:27 PM
FDA, Tailgate, as it had evolved, was nothing more than a poor excuse for a drunken Roman orgy and unfortunately it had little or nothing to do with football other than it occurred on Saturday mornings. It was an abomination, and as _jk pointed out, a 15 year old, who had no business being there, but yet was the responsibility of the University because he was, damn near died. The students at Duke today need to get over it, come up with some new ideas, and start supporting THEIR football team. I don't buy the lame excuses being offered about academics or lack of interest in football in general precluding ALL the students from attending. Some, yes, indeed, but not the large significant numbers that aren't attending. Wh have had the exact same discussion last year, so often, in fact, that it needs it's own code in an updated HPR, say

I agree as do most I think. But are there students on campus still whining? From what I've seen of the pre-game atmosphere it seems much better. If any are still complaining they will graduate as new ones take their place. I think the administration just had to cut their losses knowing a new student body would replace them in 4 years. And it's not as if we went from great student attendance at the game to poor attendance. I'd say it's a bit better actually. Plus the ones that show up aren't completely drunk and dressed like idiots.

formerdukeathlete
10-18-2011, 02:42 PM
FDA, Tailgate, as it had evolved, was nothing more than a poor excuse for a drunken Roman orgy and unfortunately it had little or nothing to do with football other than it occurred on Saturday mornings. It was an abomination, and as _jk pointed out, a 15 year old, who had no business being there, but yet was the responsibility of the University because he was, damn near died. The students at Duke today need to get over it, come up with some new ideas, and start supporting THEIR football team. I don't buy the lame excuses being offered about academics or lack of interest in football in general precluding ALL the students from attending. Some, yes, indeed, but not the large significant numbers that aren't attending. Wh have had the exact same discussion last year, so often, in fact, that it needs it's own code in an updated HPR, say

We will have to disagree on what I perceive were the positives about Tailgate, and, perhaps you will have to disagree with me re the positives in work hard play hard for Duke when recruiting students in general, athletes and non-athletes alike. Nan may have raised good amounts of money, including for the multi-disciplined research building, but she was not an ideal candidate to be President at Duke. imo, she did not quite get the place, what sold Duke to top students. And imo her assault on the campus culture went well beyond what was required as a result of changing the drinking age. It was not a coincidence that Football recruiting and really even Basketball recruiting declined after Nan took over. Her assaults on campus living, moving frats around, banning kegs (even if controls were in place to monitor drinking ages) created dissonance on campus. We heard back about this interviewing for Duke at the time.

All that said, as we have recruited much better Football players to Duke in the past, we should be able to recruit much better than we are, even right now. This should be our expectation without sacrificing academics, and even with higher academic standards.

CDu
10-18-2011, 02:59 PM
We will have to disagree on what I perceive were the positives about Tailgate, and, perhaps you will have to disagree with me re the positives in work hard play hard for Duke when recruiting students in general, athletes and non-athletes alike. Nan may have raised good amounts of money, including for the multi-disciplined research building, but she was not an ideal candidate to be President at Duke. imo, she did not quite get the place, what sold Duke to top students. And imo her assault on the campus culture went well beyond what was required as a result of changing the drinking age. It was not a coincidence that Football recruiting and really even Basketball recruiting declined after Nan took over. Her assaults on campus living, moving frats around, banning kegs (even if controls were in place to monitor drinking ages) created dissonance on campus. We heard back about this interviewing for Duke at the time.

All that said, as we have recruited much better Football players to Duke in the past, we should be able to recruit much better than we are, even right now. This should be our expectation without sacrificing academics, and even with higher academic standards.

I don't think one can reasonably argue that our basketball recruiting declined after Nan took over. Coach K was hammering out top recruiting classes and top prospects throughout Nan's time at Duke. If anything, I'd say our basketball recruiting actually improved while Nan was here (though not by result of anything she did or didn't do).

I think you're also oversimplifying to say "we've recruited better football players in the past, we should be able to do so again." The landscape of college football and recruiting has changed drastically since we were drawing good recruiting classes. I don't think Nan is the reason that the football program has declined.

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2011, 03:11 PM
I agree as do most I think. But are there students on campus still whining? From what I've seen of the pre-game atmosphere it seems much better. If any are still complaining they will graduate as new ones take their place. I think the administration just had to cut their losses knowing a new student body would replace them in 4 years. And it's not as if we went from great student attendance at the game to poor attendance. I'd say it's a bit better actually. Plus the ones that show up aren't completely drunk and dressed like idiots.
The answer is yes, there are still students complaining and protesting the shutdown of Tailgate. I hear about it every game day from students I know.

sagegrouse
10-18-2011, 03:15 PM
We will have to disagree on what I perceive were the positives about Tailgate, and, perhaps you will have to disagree with me re the positives in work hard play hard for Duke when recruiting students in general, athletes and non-athletes alike. Nan may have raised good amounts of money, including for the multi-disciplined research building, but she was not an ideal candidate to be President at Duke. imo, she did not quite get the place, what sold Duke to top students. And imo her assault on the campus culture went well beyond what was required as a result of changing the drinking age. It was not a coincidence that Football recruiting and really even Basketball recruiting declined after Nan took over. Her assaults on campus living, moving frats around, banning kegs (even if controls were in place to monitor drinking ages) created dissonance on campus. We heard back about this interviewing for Duke at the time.
All that said, as we have recruited much better Football players to Duke in the past, we should be able to recruit much better than we are, even right now. This should be our expectation without sacrificing academics, and even with higher academic standards.

Ah, yes. One of my favorite topics: "Why does Duke get better and better when every single Duke president since William Preston Few has been a failure."

Let's do a review of the troops:

A Hollis Edens, who was basically forced to resign in 1960, was recruited from the Rockefeller Foundation because Duke would eventually need outside support from foundations. According to faculty I knew, his view of Duke was a liberal arts college with a total emphasis on undergraduate education and with research as a frill. "Unhappily," this faculty member told me, "I could express his vision of Duke better than he could." His nemesis, Provost Paul M. Gross, was fired by the Board after Edens resigned (although remaining a faculty member and giving his name to Gross Chem).

Dr. Deryl Hart, Julio and JK's grandfather, was long-time chair of the Department of Surgery and president of Duke for three years while the search for a parmanent president was underway. He did a wonderful job in a caretaker role. His home was the one now occupied by Brodhead, who moved out of the Duke Forest and back to campus.

The savior was to be Douglas M. Knight, President of Lawrence College in Wisconsin, and a former English prof at Yale. Knight, whom I knew better than the rest, was one of the most verbally skilled people I ever met and a wonderful speaker. It was his bad fortune to be President during the late 1960's, and almost all university presidents from that era stepped down during the campus turmoil. He was also, it is generally agreed, not a strong leader and very sensitive to criticism. Knight also led the downfall of the Duke football program from perennial ACC champion to also-ran. It was thought at the time that major college athletics was incompatible with academic leadership and greatness, so he had his accompices, including many members of the Board of Trustees. Of course, only a couple of years later Jim Plunkett led Stanford to two Rose Bowls and personally disproved the conventional wisdom.

Duke's solution to the student and faculty unrest was Gov. and later Senator Terry Sanford. His political skills were without parallel and needed during this troubled period. I and many others thought he never understood the modern university. He seemed to favor the Dartmouth model -- first-rate undergraduate college and premier professional schools. Graduate education and academic research were never his strong suit.

He was replaced after being elected to the U.S. Senate by Dr. H. Keith H. Brodie, a medical doctor and psychiatrist. Not exactly a bold leader, I would say. Some of his personal qualities were also criticized. There seemed to be general relief when he returned to a faculty position.

Nan Keohane came to Duke from Wellesley in 1993, where she was president. A distinguished academic and chair of the faculty senate at Stanford, she would return to teaching (Princeton, I believe) after her Duke tenure. FDA has pronounced her a failure, so sobeit. I was confided in by a faculty member that "she was fired by the Board," which seems to be a canard, but not unusual rumors at a large university.

Then we have Dick Brodhead, who has received more criticism that all the rest of the people combined, thanks to the LAX incident. It is too early to write the history of Duke under Brodhead, so we must wait a few years, but no one today seems to be trumpeting his successes.

But basically, as you see, every Duke President has been judged a failure. I wonder how the University stays in business and has climbed the ranks from regional excellence to international acclaim.

sagegrouse
'Many of you here have had more exposure to the later Presidents than I have. I hope you'll correct my factual mistakes'

flyingdutchdevil
10-18-2011, 03:25 PM
I've stated my opinion for the last 3 years running: blaming the students will get you nowhere and is, to a certain extent, unfair. Every school takes on its own identity and Duke - in the last decade or so - has not been about football. And you want to know the truth: the vast majority of the student body is just happy with that. I'm currently at a grad school here at Duke (after an undergrad stint at this fantastic university) and I can say with certainty that neither the undergrads nor grads care much for Duke college football. It doesn't come up in conversation, most students couldn't name 1 player on the team, and if Coach Cut walked past them they would have no idea who he was.

To think that students will start caring about the team after a three-game winning streak is short-sighted. Duke football has (and, to a certain extent, still is) been viewed as a laughing-stock. Building the program will take years and possibly a few winning seasons before students take an avid interest. This isn't Notre Dame. This isn't USC. This isn't a SEC school. This is Duke. We have our own unique identity, our own culture, and neither of those include football as of right now.

I expect to take anti-pitchforks (or whatever they're called) for this post.

As I'm sure you are sick of blaming the students, I am sick of hearing you blame the students.

Duvall
10-18-2011, 03:30 PM
It was not a coincidence that Football recruiting and really even Basketball recruiting declined after Nan took over.

I think it's time to retire the Asack jokes - we have a new king.

formerdukeathlete
10-18-2011, 03:43 PM
Ah, yes. One of my favorite topics: "Why does Duke get better and better when every single Duke president since William Preston Few has been a failure."

Let's do a review of the troops:

A Hollis Edens, who was basically forced to resign in 1960, was recruited from the Rockefeller Foundation because Duke would eventually need outside support from foundations. According to faculty I knew, his view of Duke was a liberal arts college with a total emphasis on undergraduate education and with research as a frill. "Unhappily," this faculty member told me, "I could express his vision of Duke better than he could." His nemesis, Provost Paul M. Gross, was fired by the Board after Edens resigned (although remaining a faculty member and giving his name to Gross Chem).

Dr. Deryl Hart, Julio and JK's grandfather, was long-time chair of the Department of Surgery and president of Duke for three years while the search for a parmanent president was underway. He did a wonderful job in a caretaker role. His home was the one now occupied by Brodhead, who moved out of the Duke Forest and back to campus.

The savior was to be Douglas M. Knight, President of Lawrence College in Wisconsin, and a former English prof at Yale. Knight, whom I knew better than the rest, was one of the most verbally skilled people I ever met and a wonderful speaker. It was his bad fortune to be President during the late 1960's, and almost all university presidents from that era stepped down during the campus turmoil. He was also, it is generally agreed, not a strong leader and very sensitive to criticism. Knight also led the downfall of the Duke football program from perennial ACC champion to also-ran. It was thought at the time that major college athletics was incompatible with academic leadership and greatness, so he had his accompices, including many members of the Board of Trustees. Of course, only a couple of years later Jim Plunkett led Stanford to two Rose Bowls and personally disproved the conventional wisdom.

Duke's solution to the student and faculty unrest was Gov. and later Senator Terry Sanford. His political skills were without parallel and needed during this troubled period. I and many others thought he never understood the modern university. He seemed to favor the Dartmouth model -- first-rate undergraduate college and premier professional schools. Graduate education and academic research were never his strong suit.

He was replaced after being elected to the U.S. Senate by Dr. H. Keith H. Brodie, a medical doctor and psychiatrist. Not exactly a bold leader, I would say. Some of his personal qualities were also criticized. There seemed to be general relief when he returned to a faculty position.

Nan Keohane came to Duke from Wellesley in 1993, where she was president. A distinguished academic and chair of the faculty senate at Stanford, she would return to teaching (Princeton, I believe) after her Duke tenure. FDA has pronounced her a failure, so sobeit. I was confided in by a faculty member that "she was fired by the Board," which seems to be a canard, but not unusual rumors at a large university.

Then we have Dick Brodhead, who has received more criticism that all the rest of the people combined, thanks to the LAX incident. It is too early to write the history of Duke under Brodhead, so we must wait a few years, but no one today seems to be trumpeting his successes.

But basically, as you see, every Duke President has been judged a failure. I wonder how the University stays in business and has climbed the ranks from regional excellence to international acclaim.

sagegrouse
'Many of you here have had more exposure to the later Presidents than I have. I hope you'll correct my factual mistakes'

Lets think of Knight and Keohane as two Presidents who boldly and incorrectly manipulated the culture at Duke. Nan's measures were more drastic than Knight's regarding student life. For how many decades were ATO and Phi Delt side by side on the main quad as places where between the two about 75% of Football players joined? Breaking this up hurt recruiting, big-time. Even Knight did not go so far. He threatened, proponed to de-emphasize Football. He did not go all the way, even though faculty wanted him to do so. He hired an Ivy League coach who had not exactly set the world on fire in Ithica. But, the campus was still the campus. Under Knight and Sanford we mixed the campuses, men and women, but still fraternities as social outlets and living groups were allowed to remain where they were. Nan came in and bam. She spoke before students at one point and said something to the effect that she set out to deliberately and completely dismantle work hard play hard at Duke, like it or not students, tough luck.

Dartmouth I think has adjusted to the changes in times and drinking age in a more appropriate fashion than Duke. I have a friend on the faculty there. Let me purport that it is still the case when they successfully recruit students, including Football players, with admissions offers from top tier Ivies and other universities that the reasons cited include the social life party scene at the school.

Lid
10-18-2011, 03:56 PM
I've stated my opinion for the last 3 years running: blaming the students will get you nowhere and is, to a certain extent, unfair. Every school takes on its own identity and Duke - in the last decade or so - has not been about football. And you want to know the truth: the vast majority of the student body is just happy with that. I'm currently at a grad school here at Duke (after an undergrad stint at this fantastic university) and I can say with certainty that neither the undergrads nor grads care much for Duke college football. It doesn't come up in conversation, most students couldn't name 1 player on the team, and if Coach Cut walked past them they would have no idea who he was.

To think that students will start caring about the team after a three-game winning streak is short-sighted. Duke football has (and, to a certain extent, still is) been viewed as a laughing-stock. Building the program will take years and possibly a few winning seasons before students take an avid interest. This isn't Notre Dame. This isn't USC. This isn't a SEC school. This is Duke. We have our own unique identity, our own culture, and neither of those include football as of right now.

I expect to take anti-pitchforks (or whatever they're called) for this post.

As I'm sure you are sick of blaming the students, I am sick of hearing you blame the students.

I don't disagree with much of what you write, although my perspective is a bit different. I did get a laugh out of reading your pro-criticism Churchill quote just below a post where you rip people for criticizing the students, though. :)

Scorp4me
10-18-2011, 04:18 PM
The answer is yes, there are still students complaining and protesting the shutdown of Tailgate. I hear about it every game day from students I know.

I guess you're probably right DITBD, but it's only been what...a year or two since it was done away with. There are still those on campus who remember fondly (if not groggily and incompletely) tailgate. I guess it stinks for those who have chosen to continue fighting the cause, but others will move in who take their spot. Given another two or three years and it'll only be a vague memory (for both old and new alike) Still, thanks for the reminder, I guess it seemed like it had been longer than it had.

OZZIE4DUKE
10-18-2011, 04:29 PM
Lets think of Knight and Keohane as two Presidents who boldly and incorrectly manipulated the culture at Duke. Nan's measures were more drastic than Knight's regarding student life. For how many decades were ATO and Phi Delt side by side on the main quad as places where between the two about 75% of Football players joined? Breaking this up hurt recruiting, big-time. Even Knight did not go so far. He threatened, proponed to de-emphasize Football. He did not go all the way, even though faculty wanted him to do so. He hired an Ivy League coach who had not exactly set the world on fire in Ithica. But, the campus was still the campus. Under Knight and Sanford we mixed the campuses, men and women, but still fraternities as social outlets and living groups were allowed to remain where they were. Nan came in and bam. She spoke before students at one point and said something to the effect that she set out to deliberately and completely dismantle work hard play hard at Duke, like it or not students, tough luck.

Dartmouth I think has adjusted to the changes in times and drinking age in a more appropriate fashion than Duke. I have a friend on the faculty there. Let me purport that it is still the case when they successfully recruit students, including Football players, with admissions offers from top tier Ivies and other universities that the reasons cited include the social life party scene at the school.
There are some things, FDA, on which we agree, and have for years. Among them
1) A dislike for Nan for her anti fraternity stance in general, AND, whom I liken to Dean Wormer for putting my fraternity on double secret probation and kicking them off campus. No, they didn't deserve it, I tell you, and they are still not back as an undergraduate chapter.
2) The State of nc for raising the drinking age for beer and wine to 21. Life was much easier on campus when 18 year olds could LEGALLY drink on campus. They are going to do it anyway, now it's just done in more dangerous ways, like binge drinking and off campus where drinking and driving is more likely.
3) Work hard, play hard, especially if it includes a good drunken Roman orgy. :D (Tailgate was a pathetic drunken Roman orgy.)

Devil in the Blue Dress
10-18-2011, 04:34 PM
I guess you're probably right DITBD, but it's only been what...a year or two since it was done away with. There are still those on campus who remember fondly (if not groggily and incompletely) tailgate. I guess it stinks for those who have chosen to continue fighting the cause, but others will move in who take their spot. Given another two or three years and it'll only be a vague memory (for both old and new alike) Still, thanks for the reminder, I guess it seemed like it had been longer than it had.
This is the first year of something instead of Tailgate. Last year was when the "last straw" brought an end to the excess.

Among the students I've gotten to know are those who wanted to attend a real tailgate party with the sort of fellowship and good times many of us enjoy.... not the drop dead drunk parties with ambulances on standby.

throatybeard
10-18-2011, 07:20 PM
I think it's time to retire the Asack jokes - we have a new king.

The problem was that Nannerl wasn't tall enough to be a University President.

Pretty tall for a woman though. I wonder if she could coach the big men when Wojo moves on.

OldPhiKap
10-18-2011, 08:55 PM
The problem was that Nannerl wasn't tall enough to be a University President.

Pretty tall for a woman though. I wonder if she could coach the big men when Wojo moves on.

Could Nanner run the keeper?

uh_no
10-18-2011, 09:19 PM
Could Nanner run the keeper?

No, we still use the connette package for that

OldPhiKap
10-18-2011, 09:49 PM
No, we still use the connette package for that

Nanner was certainly taller than Uncle Terry. Avuncular though he was.

Although he called us all down for a food fight my freshman year. I still blame Monday Monday.

uh_no
10-18-2011, 09:50 PM
Nanner was certainly taller than Uncle Terry. Avuncular though he was.

Although he called us all down for a food fight my freshman year. I still blame Monday Monday.

yes but was she taller by a full cinderblock?

OldPhiKap
10-18-2011, 10:00 PM
yes but was she taller by a full cinderblock?

Duh. Depends on the angle of the photograph.

Who is more comfortable driving to the basket, though? That seems to be the question of the hour.

devildeac
10-18-2011, 10:12 PM
Nanner was certainly taller than Uncle Terry. Avuncular though he was.

Although he called us all down for a food fight my freshman year. I still blame Monday Monday.

Can't trust that day.;)