FB: Duke 48, Tulane 27

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Who's got the scouting report? Most of my current information relates to food and voodoo in NOLA.

[duke79]

Looks like Duke is favored by 10 points, at this point in time.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Looks like Duke is favored by 10 points, at this point in time.
That sounds good!

Who can tell us about Tulane? I know there are some folks on this board who live in NOLA.

[uh_no]

Looks like Duke is favored by 10 points, at this point in time.

well, we're 0-1 as the favorite and 1-1 as the underdog, but sounds good none the less!

[JasonEvans]

Ahh, if I had a dime for every time Duke has been a 10-point favorite in the past 10 years...

I'd probably have about 30 cents.

-Jason "good sign of respect for our guys!" Evans

[killerleft]

Ahh, if I had a dime for every time Duke has been a 10-point favorite in the past 10 years...

I'd probably have about 30 cents.

-Jason "good sign of respect for our guys!" Evans

:D, good one!

Since the Cat's out of the bag, I suggest we let him stay loose, although Great Scott may roam as well (crossed fingers!). Really looking forward to this team having all of the weapons available, hope that's this week! And may the defense continue to play well!

[duke blue brewcrew]

:D, good one!

Since the Cat's out of the bag, I suggest we let him stay loose, although Great Scott may roam as well (crossed fingers!). Really looking forward to this team having all of the weapons available, hope that's this week! And may the defense continue to play well!

My fingers are crossed for sure! Have there been reports that some of our walking wounded could be back for the Tulane game? I hope so! We could use Moore, Scott and Snead!

[OldPhiKap]

We learned on Saturday that, if we execute, we have the skill and the plan to win.

Just gotta execute what we know how to do.

Geaux Duke!

[Newton_14]

That sounds good!

Who can tell us about Tulane? I know there are some folks on this board who live in NOLA.


Here is a snippet for 3 of their key players. I pulled this from a document on their website that provides a summary of their 3 games this year. Looks like these 3 guys are someone to be on the lookout for. The Middle Linebacker, QB, and Kick/Punt Returner.
Here is the link to the full document on their site, followed by the writeup on the 3 guys
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tul/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/release/release_20110912aaa.pdf

NO SURPRISE: MACKEY AMONG NATION’S TOP DEFENDERS
• For the second straight week, Tulane junior middle linebacker
Trent Mackey ranks among the nation’s leaders in tackles. This
week, Mackey is ranked No. 4 in the country (No. 2 in C-USA) for
tackles with 13.0 per outing.
Mackey, who had double digit tackles with 16 vs. Southeastern
Louisiana in the opener and his 10 stops last week vs. Tulsa
was his 10th in 14 games as a member of the Green Wave.
Last season, Mackey notched eight games with 10 or more
stops and totaled a team-best 124 tackles for the year.

GRIFFIN PLACING HIS NAME AMONG TULANE’S TOP SIGNAL CALLERS
• With the next yard he throws for, Tulane junior quarterback Ryan Griffi n will move into
seventh place in Tulane career history. He is currently tied with Deron Smith (1987-90) for
seventh in school history with 4,190 yards. Here is where Griffi n ranks in every stat category:
sits atop Tulane career record book in completion percentage (.603) while ranking second in
completions per game (18.0), third in passing attempts per game (29.9), fourth in passing yards
per game (190.5), fi fth in touchdown passes per game (1.18), sixth in passing effi ciency (122.3),
seventh in 300-yard passing games (3), tied for seventh in passing yards (4,190), eighth in pass
attempts (657) and completions (396), and tied for eighth in touchdown passes (26)

KELLEY CONTINUES TO IMPRESS
• True freshman Robert Kelley continues to cement his name among the nation’s top
freshman through two games this season. Kelley is averaging a Conference USA best 175.5
all-purpose yards per game, which places him 19th in the country, and he ranks fourth among
league players and 41st nationally in kickoff return with 24.62 yards per return.
In his fi rst game, Kelley set a Tulane single-game kickoff return yardage record, tallying
213 yards on seven returns and was named the Conference USA and Louisiana Special Teams
Player of the Week. The 213 yards was the third-best single game effort in C-USA history.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

One down, Tulane to go!

[OldPhiKap]

Here is a snippet for 3 of their key players. I pulled this from a document on their website that provides a summary of their 3 games this year. Looks like these 3 guys are someone to be on the lookout for. The Middle Linebacker, QB, and Kick/Punt Returner.
Here is the link to the full document on their site, followed by the writeup on the 3 guys
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tul/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/release/release_20110912aaa.pdf

NO SURPRISE: MACKEY AMONG NATION’S TOP DEFENDERS
• For the second straight week, Tulane junior middle linebacker
Trent Mackey ranks among the nation’s leaders in tackles. This
week, Mackey is ranked No. 4 in the country (No. 2 in C-USA) for
tackles with 13.0 per outing.
Mackey, who had double digit tackles with 16 vs. Southeastern
Louisiana in the opener and his 10 stops last week vs. Tulsa
was his 10th in 14 games as a member of the Green Wave.
Last season, Mackey notched eight games with 10 or more
stops and totaled a team-best 124 tackles for the year.

GRIFFIN PLACING HIS NAME AMONG TULANE’S TOP SIGNAL CALLERS
• With the next yard he throws for, Tulane junior quarterback Ryan Griffi n will move into
seventh place in Tulane career history. He is currently tied with Deron Smith (1987-90) for
seventh in school history with 4,190 yards. Here is where Griffi n ranks in every stat category:
sits atop Tulane career record book in completion percentage (.603) while ranking second in
completions per game (18.0), third in passing attempts per game (29.9), fourth in passing yards
per game (190.5), fi fth in touchdown passes per game (1.18), sixth in passing effi ciency (122.3),
seventh in 300-yard passing games (3), tied for seventh in passing yards (4,190), eighth in pass
attempts (657) and completions (396), and tied for eighth in touchdown passes (26)

KELLEY CONTINUES TO IMPRESS
• True freshman Robert Kelley continues to cement his name among the nation’s top
freshman through two games this season. Kelley is averaging a Conference USA best 175.5
all-purpose yards per game, which places him 19th in the country, and he ranks fourth among
league players and 41st nationally in kickoff return with 24.62 yards per return.
In his fi rst game, Kelley set a Tulane single-game kickoff return yardage record, tallying
213 yards on seven returns and was named the Conference USA and Louisiana Special Teams
Player of the Week. The 213 yards was the third-best single game effort in C-USA history.

Great find. Of course, BC had the leading tackler and a great QB as well.

The key is whether we execute or not. That simple.

[barely]

Here is a snippet for 3 of their key players. I pulled this from a document on their website that provides a summary of their 3 games this year. Looks like these 3 guys are someone to be on the lookout for. The Middle Linebacker, QB, and Kick/Punt Returner.
Here is the link to the full document on their site, followed by the writeup on the 3 guys
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tul/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/release/release_20110912aaa.pdf

NO SURPRISE: MACKEY AMONG NATION’S TOP DEFENDERS
• For the second straight week, Tulane junior middle linebacker
Trent Mackey ranks among the nation’s leaders in tackles. This
week, Mackey is ranked No. 4 in the country (No. 2 in C-USA) for
tackles with 13.0 per outing.
Mackey, who had double digit tackles with 16 vs. Southeastern
Louisiana in the opener and his 10 stops last week vs. Tulsa
was his 10th in 14 games as a member of the Green Wave.
Last season, Mackey notched eight games with 10 or more
stops and totaled a team-best 124 tackles for the year.

GRIFFIN PLACING HIS NAME AMONG TULANE’S TOP SIGNAL CALLERS
• With the next yard he throws for, Tulane junior quarterback Ryan Griffi n will move into
seventh place in Tulane career history. He is currently tied with Deron Smith (1987-90) for
seventh in school history with 4,190 yards. Here is where Griffi n ranks in every stat category:
sits atop Tulane career record book in completion percentage (.603) while ranking second in
completions per game (18.0), third in passing attempts per game (29.9), fourth in passing yards
per game (190.5), fi fth in touchdown passes per game (1.18), sixth in passing effi ciency (122.3),
seventh in 300-yard passing games (3), tied for seventh in passing yards (4,190), eighth in pass
attempts (657) and completions (396), and tied for eighth in touchdown passes (26)

KELLEY CONTINUES TO IMPRESS
• True freshman Robert Kelley continues to cement his name among the nation’s top
freshman through two games this season. Kelley is averaging a Conference USA best 175.5
all-purpose yards per game, which places him 19th in the country, and he ranks fourth among
league players and 41st nationally in kickoff return with 24.62 yards per return.
In his fi rst game, Kelley set a Tulane single-game kickoff return yardage record, tallying
213 yards on seven returns and was named the Conference USA and Louisiana Special Teams
Player of the Week. The 213 yards was the third-best single game effort in C-USA history.

Isn't Mackey the same guy that we recruited and then dismissed from the team? Anyone recall why he was dismissed?

[killerleft]

Isn't Mackey the same guy that we recruited and then dismissed from the team? Anyone recall why he was dismissed?

http://duke.scout.com/2/837071.html

Here is a blurb from Scout at the time. Says Mackey didn't meet "team standards", which could mean a lot, or very few, things.

[budwom]

Yes, Mackey did a very bad thing, though the specifics were not publicly disclosed.

We will have to score a bunch of points. Our defense just isn't that good, and I promise you Tulane will score quite a bit.
Time to avoid the ridiculous penalties which have plagued us. Anyone who expects an easy win doesn't understand Duke football.....

[duke blue brewcrew]

We will have to score a bunch of points. Our defense just isn't that good, and I promise you Tulane will score quite a bit.
Time to avoid the ridiculous penalties which have plagued us. Anyone who expects an easy win doesn't understand Duke football.....

I have no doubts that Duke will need to execute at a high level on both sides of the ball and in special teams to be victorious against Tulane. No Blue Devil football fan has the luxury of looking past any opponent. However, I take issue with your comment that Duke's defense isn't any good. I think you mistake a lack of experience for a lack of talent. I watched every snap of the BC game, and with the exception of the final drive, our defense played their collective butts off in that game. My gutt tells me you'll have a different opinion of this team at the end of the season. Once Duke gets healthy, they'll be able to hang with anyone in the league...and should pull out a few wins for their efforts.

[watzone]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/09/duke-te-braxton-deaver-thinks-duke-is-ready-to-turn-the-corner/ Very postive responses from Duke TE Braxton Deaver goin into the Tulane game.

[OldPhiKap]

Our defense just isn't that good

I am assuming that you might not have been able to catch the second half of the BC game. It was a pretty impressive performance.

You are certainly right that this is not an easy game. I don't think anyone is taking it for granted.

[Bob Green]

Our defense just isn't that good...


I take issue with your comment that Duke's defense isn't any good.

In defense of budwom (not that he needs me to defend him), you misquoted him. There is a big difference in the words "that" and "any" when discussing our defense. While the defense has played admirably so far this season, we do rank 11 of 12 in the ACC in Scoring Defense giving up 28.7 points per game so there is plenty of room for continued improvement and I fully expect improvement will be continuous throughout the season. As you state, our defense is inexperienced.

[budwom]

In defense of budwom (not that he needs me to defend him), you misquoted him. There is a big difference in the words "that" and "any" when discussing our defense. While the defense has played admirably so far this season, we do rank 11 of 12 in the ACC in Scoring Defense giving up 28.7 points per game so there is plenty of room for continued improvement and I fully expect improvement will be continuous throughout the season. As you state, our defense is inexperienced.

Thank you Bob, I chose my words carefully. We have a lot of young guys on defense. They may (or may not) prove to be good quality defenders. What concerns me about Tulane (despite being 10 point underdogs) is that they
have a pretty good passing attack, and BC missed quite a few wide open receivers against us on Saturday. We need to improve our pass rush as well. And yes, I saw the entire BC game, including the last 1:45 or so when they went through our defence with considerable ease.

The oddsmakers have the over/under at 54.5, hence they see it as 32-22 Duke (I know, they balance the odds, etc, but still....). So I'm not the only guy who thinks we'll have to score quite a few points to win.

[Tulanefan]

Hello guys, I am this week's enemy, I guess. First let me hat tip Duke basketball. I am a fan of Coach K, and I love watching his teams. That said, this is about football. I see you guys know little about our team so I'll fill you in.

Okay, so to help you guys out in becoming more familiar with Tulane and what you should look for I'll start with offense.

Tulane's quarterback is redshirt junior Ryan Griffin. He has at times been impressive, but he hasn't been consistent. This is partly due to a weak offensive line, and a modest receiving corp. But when they are on, they are ON, as the game against UAB showed last week when the O-Line didn't allow a sack and the receivers were making even the difficult catches. Is this a matter of a very young team finally maturing or was UAB just that pathetic? In the Bob Toledo era big wins have been followed up with inexplicable poor performances, so Duke is catching Tulane at the right time.

Tulane has a very good running back in Orleans Darkwa. In preseason he was on the Doak Walker watch list, but early injuries have limited his play. If he's a 100% he'll give fits to any defense, especially if Tulane's o-line shows up. Tulane also has the speedy Albert Williams. Give him a seam and he could wreck havoc. On the other hand he has the habit of juking around too much. Cost Tulane a first down last week by juking when he didn't have to. Then there's true freshman Robert Kelley who is mentioned above. He mostly plays on special teams right now, but he's a bowling ball. When Tulane recruited him he was about 5'10 and 190 pounds and had a 4.55 40. But since he's signed with Tulane he's had a growth spurt, he's now 5'11" and 223 lbs with a sub 4.5 40. Together these three backs make a good stable of backs and is the strength of Tulane's offense. Stop them and you'll be sitting pretty.

On defense, Tulane has given up a lot of points this year, but that's a bit deceiving. Tulsa put up 31 points but that was only after the defense was worn down by offensive failures that included poor play from the O-line and 6 dropped passes from the receiving corp. Trent Mackey at LB and Dezman Moses at DE, both transfers (from Duke and Iowa, respectively) are the stars here, and can be dominant. Also Derek Strozier is a smallish cornerback for Tulane but has excellent pass defense skills. He has two picks on the year including a 55 yard pick-6 last week. The defense has five picks through three games and ten sacks, and are among the Conference USA leaders.

Special teams is Tulane's weakness, especially the kick return coverage, but they've been much better in punt coverage. Tulane has lost an awful lot of points and field position due to poor kick coverage this year.

Tulane is a very young team with only 12 seniors on the whole team this year, and only 6 who see regular playing time. So, the question is this: will they play like a young team as they did against Tulsa or will they play like a talented team with a mission as they did against UAB? If it's the former, you should have an easy go of it, if it's the latter you'll be in for a ball game.


Note: this is Bob Toledo's fifth year at Tulane and the first year with nobody but his own recruits on the team. This team is the most talented that Tulane's had under Toledo as he's done a good job recruiting, but the question will be whether he can get them to play to their potential on a consistent basis.


Well guys, best of luck (except I hope your team loses, of course). :D

[OldPhiKap]

Hello guys, I am this week's enemy, I guess. First let me hat tip Duke basketball. I am a fan of Coach K, and I love watching his teams. That said, this is about football. I see you guys know little about our team so I'll fill you in.

Okay, so to help you guys out in becoming more familiar with Tulane and what you should look for I'll start with offense.

Tulane's quarterback is redshirt junior Ryan Griffin. He has at times been impressive, but he hasn't been consistent. This is partly due to a weak offensive line, and a modest receiving corp. But when they are on, they are ON, as the game against UAB showed last week when the O-Line didn't allow a sack and the receivers were making even the difficult catches. Is this a matter of a very young team finally maturing or was UAB just that pathetic? In the Bob Toledo era big wins have been followed up with inexplicable poor performances, so Duke is catching Tulane at the right time.

Tulane has a very good running back in Orleans Darkwa. In preseason he was on the Doak Walker watch list, but early injuries have limited his play. If he's a 100% he'll give fits to any defense, especially if Tulane's o-line shows up. Tulane also has the speedy Albert Williams. Give him a seam and he could wreck havoc. On the other hand he has the habit of juking around too much. Cost Tulane a first down last week by juking when he didn't have to. Then there's true freshman Robert Kelley who is mentioned above. He mostly plays on special teams right now, but he's a bowling ball. When Tulane recruited him he was about 5'10 and 190 pounds and had a 4.55 40. But since he's signed with Tulane he's had a growth spurt, he's now 5'11" and 223 lbs with a sub 4.5 40. Together these three backs make a good stable of backs and is the strength of Tulane's offense. Stop them and you'll be sitting pretty.

On defense, Tulane has given up a lot of points this year, but that's a bit deceiving. Tulsa put up 31 points but that was only after the defense was worn down by offensive failures that included poor play from the O-line and 6 dropped passes from the receiving corp. Trent Mackey at LB and Dezman Moses at DE, both transfers (from Duke and Iowa, respectively) are the stars here, and can be dominant. Also Derek Strozier is a smallish cornerback for Tulane but has excellent pass defense skills. He has two picks on the year including a 55 yard pick-6 last week. The defense has five picks through three games and ten sacks, and are among the Conference USA leaders.

Special teams is Tulane's weakness, especially the kick return coverage, but they've been much better in punt coverage. Tulane has lost an awful lot of points and field position due to poor kick coverage this year.

Tulane is a very young team with only 12 seniors on the whole team this year, and only 6 who see regular playing time. So, the question is this: will they play like a young team as they did against Tulsa or will they play like a talented team with a mission as they did against UAB? If it's the former, you should have an easy go of it, if it's the latter you'll be in for a ball game.


Note: this is Bob Toledo's fifth year at Tulane and the first year with nobody but his own recruits on the team. This team is the most talented that Tulane's had under Toledo as he's done a good job recruiting, but the question will be whether he can get them to play to their potential on a consistent basis.


Well guys, best of luck (except I hope your team loses, of course). :D

Many thanks for the excellent post, and please come back any time.

Hope you run the tables after this weekend. ;>)

-- OPK

[devildeac]

Hello guys, I am this week's enemy, I guess. First let me hat tip Duke basketball. I am a fan of Coach K, and I love watching his teams. That said, this is about football. I see you guys know little about our team so I'll fill you in.

Okay, so to help you guys out in becoming more familiar with Tulane and what you should look for I'll start with offense.

Tulane's quarterback is redshirt junior Ryan Griffin. He has at times been impressive, but he hasn't been consistent. This is partly due to a weak offensive line, and a modest receiving corp. But when they are on, they are ON, as the game against UAB showed last week when the O-Line didn't allow a sack and the receivers were making even the difficult catches. Is this a matter of a very young team finally maturing or was UAB just that pathetic? In the Bob Toledo era big wins have been followed up with inexplicable poor performances, so Duke is catching Tulane at the right time.

Tulane has a very good running back in Orleans Darkwa. In preseason he was on the Doak Walker watch list, but early injuries have limited his play. If he's a 100% he'll give fits to any defense, especially if Tulane's o-line shows up. Tulane also has the speedy Albert Williams. Give him a seam and he could wreck havoc. On the other hand he has the habit of juking around too much. Cost Tulane a first down last week by juking when he didn't have to. Then there's true freshman Robert Kelley who is mentioned above. He mostly plays on special teams right now, but he's a bowling ball. When Tulane recruited him he was about 5'10 and 190 pounds and had a 4.55 40. But since he's signed with Tulane he's had a growth spurt, he's now 5'11" and 223 lbs with a sub 4.5 40. Together these three backs make a good stable of backs and is the strength of Tulane's offense. Stop them and you'll be sitting pretty.

On defense, Tulane has given up a lot of points this year, but that's a bit deceiving. Tulsa put up 31 points but that was only after the defense was worn down by offensive failures that included poor play from the O-line and 6 dropped passes from the receiving corp. Trent Mackey at LB and Dezman Moses at DE, both transfers (from Duke and Iowa, respectively) are the stars here, and can be dominant. Also Derek Strozier is a smallish cornerback for Tulane but has excellent pass defense skills. He has two picks on the year including a 55 yard pick-6 last week. The defense has five picks through three games and ten sacks, and are among the Conference USA leaders.

Special teams is Tulane's weakness, especially the kick return coverage, but they've been much better in punt coverage. Tulane has lost an awful lot of points and field position due to poor kick coverage this year.

Tulane is a very young team with only 12 seniors on the whole team this year, and only 6 who see regular playing time. So, the question is this: will they play like a young team as they did against Tulsa or will they play like a talented team with a mission as they did against UAB? If it's the former, you should have an easy go of it, if it's the latter you'll be in for a ball game.


Note: this is Bob Toledo's fifth year at Tulane and the first year with nobody but his own recruits on the team. This team is the most talented that Tulane's had under Toledo as he's done a good job recruiting, but the question will be whether he can get them to play to their potential on a consistent basis.


Well guys, best of luck (except I hope your team loses, of course). :D

Excellent preview! Thanks for taking the time to post it. We need a winning streak (not THAT kind of streak, OZZIE, even if it is Homecoming) started and we hope it starts with Tulane so we can (Green) Wave y'all good-bye and wish you a safe journey home.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Hello guys, I am this week's enemy, I guess. First let me hat tip Duke basketball. I am a fan of Coach K, and I love watching his teams. That said, this is about football. I see you guys know little about our team so I'll fill you in.

Okay, so to help you guys out in becoming more familiar with Tulane and what you should look for ...

Well guys, best of luck (except I hope your team loses, of course). :D
First, welcome. Thanks for a great post. Second, you're not the enemy. Tulane is our opponent, and we plan to outscore you and send your team home, feeling badly about the outcome but hopefully healthy and knowing that you (well, they) were beaten fairly by a better team. Best of luck to you for the rest of the season, starting next week! :cool:

[Tulanefan]

Thanks guys, glad to be of help.

Just to emphasize how young Tulane is, on the two-deep depth chart for offense, defense, and special teams there are, by my count, 29 sophomores or freshmen.

Depth chart vs Duke (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tul/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/depth_chart_event/depth_chart_20110920aaa.pdf)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Thanks guys, glad to be of help.

Just to emphasize how young Tulane is, on the two-deep depth chart for offense, defense, and special teams there are, by my count, 29 sophomores or freshmen.

Depth chart vs Duke (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/tul/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2011-12/depth_chart_event/depth_chart_20110920aaa.pdf)
That's a lot like Duke's depth chart, especially on the lines of scrimmage and on defense in general. Actually, the only place where we have senior/upper class star (or multi-year starting) talent and depth is at receiver, with Varner and Vernon at the wide receiver positions and Helfet at TE. Perhaps add Sean Renfree at QB, DT Charlie Hatcher and S Matt Daniels. The rest of the team? Young and talented, but still learning and growing (on the job!)

[jimsumner]

That's a lot like Duke's depth chart, especially on the lines of scrimmage and on defense in general. Actually, the only place where we have senior/upper class star (or multi-year starting) talent and depth is at receiver, with Varner and Vernon at the wide receiver positions and Helfet at TE. Perhaps add Sean Renfree at QB, DT Charlie Hatcher and S Matt Daniels. The rest of the team? Young and talented, but still learning and growing (on the job!)

I'd add Kyle Hill to the upper-class star list. Maybe Kenny Anunike, although he's still learning his position. And there are lots of upper-class DBs. Lee Butler, Johnny Williams, Walt Canty, Jordan Byas, Zach Greene, in addition to Daniels.

Hopefully, we can add Desmond Scott to the upperclass star list. As soon as he gets healthy. And I'd love to get that senior place-kicker back to star status.

Duke is young, overall, at OL and LB, very young at DL. But that shouldn't be a disadvantage at home against a team equally young, perhaps younger.

[budwom]

I'd add Kyle Hill to the upper-class star list. Maybe Kenny Anunike, although he's still learning his position. And there are lots of upper-class DBs. Lee Butler, Johnny Williams, Walt Canty, Jordan Byas, Zach Greene, in addition to Daniels.

Hopefully, we can add Desmond Scott to the upperclass star list. As soon as he gets healthy. And I'd love to get that senior place-kicker back to star status.

Duke is young, overall, at OL and LB, very young at DL. But that shouldn't be a disadvantage at home against a team equally young, perhaps younger.

Jim, until Kyle Hill stops committing alarmingly ill-timed motion penalties, I don't think he deserves to be on any star lists.

[jimsumner]

Jim, until Kyle Hill stops committing alarmingly ill-timed motion penalties, I don't think he deserves to be on any star lists.

Hill's considered one of Duke's better NFL prospects. Penalties notwithstanding, he's the anchor of an OL that is actually becoming an asset, rather than a liability.

[77devil]

This game represents a first for Duke football since 2003. Who can get the right answer without an internet search?

[OldPhiKap]

This game represents a first for Duke football since 2003. Who can get the right answer without an internet search?

First double digit favorite.

(WSJ, thanks)

[Bob Green]

First double digit favorite.

(WSJ, thanks)

This cannot be correct as Duke was a 12 point favorite over Richmond. Perhaps it is the first double digit favorite over a FBS opponent.

[77devil]

This cannot be correct as Duke was a 12 point favorite over Richmond. Perhaps it is the first double digit favorite over a FBS opponent.

Correct Bob. I should have been more explicit.

[OldPhiKap]

Correct Bob. I should have been more explicit.

No, your question was right -- my answer is not wholly accurate. Bob's addition makes the answer right.

(so, if we were a trivia team, we'd split the pot).

[noladevil]

Tulane put it all together last week and played well in all three phases. They run an offense out of the 70's, a reflection of coaching dinosaur Bob Toledo. QB Ryan Griffin (11) is similar to Renfree (tall, experienced, accurate, but immobile and struggles with pressure) but with a little less arm strength. The O-line is weak and inexperienced, though moving their best lineman Harris Howard (71) from LG to LT last week seemed to help. Receivers are talented but erratic, and the top receiver Ryan Grant (3) was out the last two weeks and questionable for this week. RS Freshman tight end Matt Marfisi (88)is a future star. Tulane is loaded with talent at running back - probably the top 3 and maybe 4 backs would all start for us. Orleans Darkwa (26) gained over 900 yards as a freshman in only 10 games and is a stud, though still fighting foot problems right now. Senior Albert Williams (25) is explosive, and Freshman Robert Kelley (2) is a load at 225 lbs and is also a good KO returner.

Tulane's defense has improved greatly since last year, with its only really poor play being in the 2nd half against Tulsa. The strength of the defense is MLB Trent Mackey (20) who has been much discussed here and playing some fantastic football, and defensive ends Desman Moses (6) and Austen Jacks (50). Tulane's weakest area on defense is OLB, which should be a concern to Tulane fans given Duke's short passing game. DB's are above average, though safety Shakiel Smith (4) gambles a lot and his normally stout tackling has been weakened as he has played with a separated shoulder the past 2 games.

With a win against a I-AA weakling, a blowout loss to a good Tulsa team and a blowout win on the road against an awful UAB team, the verdict is still out on Tulane. They have improved for sure, but where that puts them relative to the Blue Devils is uncertain. Should be a competitive game - wish I could get back for homecoming.

[noladevil]

Put mine to shame. Tulanefan - you going to Durham for the game?

[budwom]

Hill's considered one of Duke's better NFL prospects. Penalties notwithstanding, he's the anchor of an OL that is actually becoming an asset, rather than a liability.

I'm aware of his theoretical prospects, Jim, but having watched him pretty closely the first three weeks, I don't think his performance thus far will get him into the NFL. Hopefully he steps things up
significantly. I will be there on Saturday to supervise him....

[Bob Green]

Here is an article on Tulane Coach Bob Toledo's weekly press conference:

http://www.tulanegreenwave.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/092011aaa.html


"As far as Duke is concerned, they're 1-2. They beat Boston College 20-19. It's another road game for us. It's an ACC opponent and a BCS opponent. I think David Cutcliffe has done a nice job. You're all familiar with him having been at Tennessee and Ole Miss. He's got a very young team like us as well. Last week, they were 43-of-55 throwing the football for 384 yards and two touchdowns. They had seven players catch passes. The quarterback, Sean Renfree, is very patient. He knows where to go with the ball and he is very accurate. The wide receivers Donovan Varner had 12 catches. Conner Vernon had 116 yards and two touchdowns. They've got a defense that is going to be very difficult to move the ball on. They pack the paint. They're going to get eight or nine guys up there close to the line of scrimmage. So we've got to be successful running the football, we've got to take our shots when it's time and we've got to make some plays in the passing game. They've got a defensive end, Kenny Anunike, who has four sacks. He's pretty good. And their safety, Matt Daniels, is a heck of a player. He's up for the Ronny Lott Award and he's pretty good."

[davekay1971]

There are parts of Tulanefan's post that look like a summary of Duke football - upgraded talent, young team, defense being put in bad positions by turnovers, lots of potential, sometimes trouble putting it together.

That should make for a very interesting, very unpredictable game.

From the previews, it sounds like Tulane's rushing attack is a real strength for them, and that their passing game can be negated with good pressure on the QB. So our DL and linebacking corps are going to be key in stopping them.

Let's go, Duke. Time to even up that record!

[Tulanefan]

Put mine to shame. Tulanefan - you going to Durham for the game?

I think you added a few things that I left out, so you did great. I can't make it to Durham. Living under great recession budget these days. :) Plus my mother-n-law is sick so we got to look out for her particularly since she's getting up there in age. Will be watching on ESPN3 though.

[pbc2]

Looking forward to an exciting game tomorrow between two teams that can move the football on offense. Hopefully the weather cooperates and we have a great afternoon in Durham! Go Duke!

[duke79]

I have a problem with watching the game tomorrow on ESPN3 (and I believe this is the only place where it is being televised). I can access ESPN3 at work where I have Verizon as my internet provider. However, at home, I get internet access through a small, local "WiMax" service provider. When I try to access ESPN3, I get a message that in order to access "WatchESPN", I have to receive my internet service through one of the providers that they list on the site. It is a long list of internet and cable providers. However, the company who provides my internet service is NOT listed and therefore I can apparently NOT access ESPN3. Does anyone know how to get around this? I'd like to watch the Duke/Tulane game without having to go to my office. Any help would be appreciated.

[gep]

I have a problem with watching the game tomorrow on ESPN3 (and I believe this is the only place where it is being televised). I can access ESPN3 at work where I have Verizon as my internet provider. However, at home, I get internet access through a small, local "WiMax" service provider. When I try to access ESPN3, I get a message that in order to access "WatchESPN", I have to receive my internet service through one of the providers that they list on the site. It is a long list of internet and cable providers. However, the company who provides my internet service is NOT listed and therefore I can apparently NOT access ESPN3. Does anyone know how to get around this? I'd like to watch the Duke/Tulane game without having to go to my office. Any help would be appreciated.

I think it's something like this. At your work computer, create an ESPN account in ESPN. Then, go to the ESPN3 link at the bottom, and when in ESPN3 (with the Verizon logo at the top-right, I would think), click on the "remote access" button. Then when at home, go to ESPN, log in, go to the ESPN3 link on the bottom, and you should be ON. I tried this a couple of times in the past, and it worked well. Good luck!!!

[duke79]

Thanks, Gep, I'll try that. Hope it works.

[towerview road]

Chat about the game: http://snrub.com/

[duke79]

Just turned on the game on ESPN3. Looks like the stands are 3/4's empty. Truly pathetic. I think Coach Cut and the players deserve better support !!

[towerview road]

WW looks painfully empty, but the game looks great so far! Really nice catch by Vernon.

[loldevilz]

That was definitely a sack. Horrible call.

[towerview road]

Srub chat is painfully empty too. Where is everybody today? At WW I hope?

[Wander]

If you're not watching, don't let Tulane's 7 points fool you - Duke is dominating this game. (When was the last time we could say that?)

[SoCalDukeFan]

What happened/

SoCal

[SoCalDukeFan]

The account on my iphone espn app was wrong.

[Duvall]

Injuries starting to pile up for Duke. Could be a concern in the second half.

[diveonthefloor]

Well it's looking good going into halftime.

Darn it, if not for Snyderwine's "burp" in the Richmond game, we could be 3-1 after this week and smelling good for a bowl.

But I'll certainly take 2 in a row, even over mediocre teams.

FIU is good. If we win that game, I'll be impressed.

(Sorry to count my chickens before Tulane game is over, but we are completely overmatching them in all phases.)

[peloton]

Wow. The offense is starting to impress me, although it appears that Tulane's defense is pretty porous. But you have to give credit where it's due and both the coaching staff and players are utilizing our strengths. You've got to admire Coach Cutcliffe's calls to go for it on 4th and 1 (believe we did that at least twice the 1st half?) We can not get complacent or too conservative though during the 2nd half as we have the momentum - we need to take advantage of that. C'mon Devils! Keep the pedal to the metal! Keep playing hard with determination and let's win this game comfortably.

[magjayran]

Checking scores at work. Looks like a fun game. Can't wait to get home and watch the whole replay on ESPN3.

[DU82]

Should be 38-10. There was no block in the back, he missed the Tulane player.

[riverside6]

Live stats and play analysis for the game here:

http://www.scacchoops.com/FB_ViewHDGame.asp?hGame=1227

Fun to see a lot of impressive numbers from Duke today.

[gep]

That "inadvertent early whistle" on Boone's fumble play was HUGE. It's about time Duke gets some breaks ("calls" too).

GO DUKE!!!!

[ChillinDuke]

I just tuned in, but looking at the stat line (and score) we look pretty dominant.

Maybe this will turn out to be the type of win we were hoping to see all offseason (...multiple offseasons).

...Gotta win first. Go Duke!

- Chillin

[gep]

well... there went the advantage of a huge break... turnover...

[loldevilz]

Great win. Defense and offense were absolutely dominant. I'd say we had a real shot at a bowl game...if we hadn't already lost to Richmond.

[Class of '94]

Great win. Defense and offense were absolutely dominant. I'd say we had a real shot at a bowl game...if we hadn't already lost to Richmond.

We still have a solid chance of being bowl eligible. It just means we have to place more emphasis on winning some ACC games....

[peloton]

Congrats to Coach Cut and the entire team on a solid victory. It was definitely earned by the entire team. The offense, defense, and special teams all had a big part in this win. Special congrats to Will on getting his mojo back - if you're not fully healed already, hopefully you will be soon! Your abilities will be needed when we're in the thick of our ACC schedule. Another great thing about this win is that a lot of players got a chance to get some playing time, especially in the 4th quarter - good to see us continue to develop additional depth. Dare I say that this team is just beginning to show us what they're capable of achieving? Way to go, Blue Devils. This is yet another step towards becoming a respectable (read:solid) FBS program...win the games that you should win. Next play!

[grossbus]

"We still have a solid chance of being bowl eligible."

stop. every time this idea gets voiced, we crash.

[CDu]

We still have a solid chance of being bowl eligible. It just means we have to place more emphasis on winning some ACC games....

No. We have, at best, a very remote chance at being bowl eligible. We need 4 more wins, but we will likely be the underdog in every remaining game - heavily so in many of them (FSU, Va Tech, @Miami). So to be bowl eligible, we'd have to win all three of our realistically winnable games (@FIU, Wake Forest, and @UVa), and then pull a substantial upset over Ga Tech or @UNC. There's basically no margin for error. The chances of a bowl game went from "reasonable chance" to "nearly nonexistent" the minute we lost to Richmond.

That being said, it was a great win today. The team looked good on both sides of the ball until we let our foot off the gas at the end. We were the better team on the field today and we showed it. It was very fun to watch us look good and give an opponent a whoopin for once.

[jimsumner]

Nothing official yet but Anunike almost certainly out for season.

Serious bummer.

[Acymetric]

Nothing official yet but Anunike almost certainly out for season.

Serious bummer.

Ugh...that sucks. It'll be trial by fire for our young but reportedly talented ends, hope they can build on today's game and continue to impose themselves on opposing offenses.

[peloton]

Precisely, grossbus - my sentiments exactly. While both today's win and last week's against BC are absolutely a step in the right direction in demonstrating progress, we are a 2-2 team right now...nothing more, nothing less. Let's take one game at a time and not even mention the 'b' word yet. Duke football teams can't afford to look beyond the next game...certainly not yet anyway. I guarantee you that Coach Cut is not thinking about any "you know what" right now. He's emphasizing to the team that the next game on the schedule is the most important game...that principle is paramount to any truly successful team (can you say "Duke basketball"?) If/when this team reaches 5 wins I'll consider the possibility of a bowl game but until then, it's business as usual.

[uh_no]

Let's take one game at a time and not even mention the 'b' word yet.

Yeah...don't talk about basketball until next month!

[loldevilz]

Does anybody know who will replace Anunike in the starting lineup? He was quickly becoming my favorite Duke football player.

Also the job Rick Petri has done turning around the defense deserves huge praise. The starting defense essentially gave up 1 field goal during the game. The TD and other field goal were both on Renfree. That means that over about 5 quarters the defense has given up only 3 points! That's incredible. I'd like to see more forced turnovers, but I can't argue with what they've accomplished.

[jimsumner]

Does anybody know who will replace Anunike in the starting lineup? He was quickly becoming my favorite Duke football player.

Also the job Rick Petri has done turning around the defense deserves huge praise. The starting defense essentially gave up 1 field goal during the game. The TD and other field goal were both on Renfree. That means that over about 5 quarters the defense has given up only 3 points! That's incredible. I'd like to see more forced turnovers, but I can't argue with what they've accomplished.

Justin Foxx is the only recruited DE who is not a redshirt freshman. So, consider it fluid. Dez Johnson, Jamal Wallace, Jordan DeWalt Ondijo are in the mix. Duke could move Nick Sink from DT to DE.

Cut said that he told Anukike that he would cut off one of his legs and give it to him, if he could. Kid has had two knee surgeries and worked his way back both times. Coming back a third time will test anyone's resolve.

[duke79]

Good, solid win today. Admittedly, Tulane is not a great team, but, nonetheless, Duke looked good on both offense and defense. We'll see how the team executes once we start playing better teams in the ACC. I have to say that I was very dismayed when I saw the video shot of the stands at the beginning of the game (on ESPN3). To me, it looked like no more than 1/4 of the seats were filled. I can't imagine the official attendance was over 10,000. Maybe more fans came after the game started. But I really think Coach Cut and the players DESERVE more support from the students and others in the Durham community. I understand the argument that Duke is really a basketball school and no one cares about football but this was truly shameful. I've seen high school football games that had more fans. I wonder what Coach Cut thinks when he comes out on the field and looks up at the stands and see huge numbers of empty seats, especially after coaching at Tennessee where they get 78,000 (or some similar number) at every game. It HAS to be discouraging for him.

[DueBlevil]

To me, it looked like no more than 1/4 of the seats were filled. I can't imagine the official attendance was over 10,000.

Attendance was 20,138. Camera angles did not show the entire crowd. Certainly not good attendance, especially for homecoming, but this was Tulane.

[Jim3k]

Attendance was 20,138. Camera angles did not show the entire crowd. Certainly not good attendance, especially for homecoming, but this was Tulane.


I also understand that the weather before the game may have discouraged attendance. Can you speak to that?

[jimsumner]

Good, solid win today. Admittedly, Tulane is not a great team, but, nonetheless, Duke looked good on both offense and defense. We'll see how the team executes once we start playing better teams in the ACC. I have to say that I was very dismayed when I saw the video shot of the stands at the beginning of the game (on ESPN3). To me, it looked like no more than 1/4 of the seats were filled. I can't imagine the official attendance was over 10,000. Maybe more fans came after the game started. But I really think Coach Cut and the players DESERVE more support from the students and others in the Durham community. I understand the argument that Duke is really a basketball school and no one cares about football but this was truly shameful. I've seen high school football games that had more fans. I wonder what Coach Cut thinks when he comes out on the field and looks up at the stands and see huge numbers of empty seats, especially after coaching at Tennessee where they get 78,000 (or some similar number) at every game. It HAS to be discouraging for him.

Agreed. The crowd was disappointingly small, especially coming off an ACC road win.

Cut was asked about this in the post-game. Not a lot he could say except "give us a chance and we'll give you a good effort."

He did compliment the team for its ability to generate enthusiasm internally. Still, it would be nice to have a significant home-field advantage, with some enthusiasm generated by the crowd.

The curious thing was watching people leave the game in the third quarter, with Duke playing great and well ahead.

[uh_no]

Good, solid win today. Admittedly, Tulane is not a great team, but, nonetheless, Duke looked good on both offense and defense. We'll see how the team executes once we start playing better teams in the ACC. I have to say that I was very dismayed when I saw the video shot of the stands at the beginning of the game (on ESPN3). To me, it looked like no more than 1/4 of the seats were filled. I can't imagine the official attendance was over 10,000. Maybe more fans came after the game started. But I really think Coach Cut and the players DESERVE more support from the students and others in the Durham community. I understand the argument that Duke is really a basketball school and no one cares about football but this was truly shameful. I've seen high school football games that had more fans. I wonder what Coach Cut thinks when he comes out on the field and looks up at the stands and see huge numbers of empty seats, especially after coaching at Tennessee where they get 78,000 (or some similar number) at every game. It HAS to be discouraging for him.

When Curtis Beach was putting up a record setting performance in the decathlon at the ACC championships held at duke this spring, he probably looked up in the stands and saw there were very few duke fans. Why does a mediocre football team deserve more fan support than a top collegiate decathlete? The women's tennis team won a national championship a year ago. They probably get a few hundred at their matches. Do they deserve more? I want duke games to have a huge turnout also. But I don't for a second pretend for a second that the team is any more deserving of support than any other campus venture, or that students somehow have a duty to come out to football games.

That aside, I imagine it is discouraging for the team, but I also imagine that they have very realistic expectations as to what to expect each game. I'm sure they were thrilled at the turnout of the first two games, and realized that this game, against a minor OOC opponent probably wasn't going to have a huge turnout. I would think that the ACC games would see a much larger turnout. If the team ever got to 5 wins, every subsequent home game would be very well attended...I'll admit, I was not at the game today despite being on campus. I spent 3 hours in the biddle building practice rooms. I had the game on espn3, yes, but a game which I thought we would win handily would not have been very enjoyable to me. So I did other things. When we get to the ACC games, especially if we have 3 or 4 wins, I'll come, becuase we'll have a chance to do something special as opposed to beating up on a overmatched team.

People have said that we shouldn't start bowl talk, but I'll be honest, nothing would get me more excited for duke football (and thus go to games) than the possibility of going to a bowl. That's what will get me to go to games and make it worth 3-4 hours on a saturday instead of doing other things.

[DueBlevil]

I also understand that the weather before the game may have discouraged attendance. Can you speak to that?

Yeah there was a lot of rain in the morning, but the gametime weather was fine, quite nice even. Not sure if it had an effect, but I suppose it could have dampened the festivities

[jimsumner]

When Curtis Beach was putting up a record setting performance in the decathlon at the ACC championships held at duke this spring, he probably looked up in the stands and saw there were very few duke fans. Why does a mediocre football team deserve more fan support than a top collegiate decathlete? The women's tennis team won a national championship a year ago. They probably get a few hundred at their matches. Do they deserve more? I want duke games to have a huge turnout also. But I don't for a second pretend for a second that the team is any more deserving of support than any other campus venture, or that students somehow have a duty to come out to football games.

That aside, I imagine it is discouraging for the team, but I also imagine that they have very realistic expectations as to what to expect each game. I'm sure they were thrilled at the turnout of the first two games, and realized that this game, against a minor OOC opponent probably wasn't going to have a huge turnout. I would think that the ACC games would see a much larger turnout. If the team ever got to 5 wins, every subsequent home game would be very well attended...I'll admit, I was not at the game today despite being on campus. I spent 3 hours in the biddle building practice rooms. I had the game on espn3, yes, but a game which I thought we would win handily would not have been very enjoyable to me. So I did other things. When we get to the ACC games, especially if we have 3 or 4 wins, I'll come, becuase we'll have a chance to do something special as opposed to beating up on a overmatched team.

People have said that we shouldn't start bowl talk, but I'll be honest, nothing would get me more excited for duke football (and thus go to games) than the possibility of going to a bowl. That's what will get me to go to games and make it worth 3-4 hours on a saturday instead of doing other things.

I'm not sure it's a question of who deserves fans as much as context. Maybe the top lab assistant on campus "deserves" as much respect as Curtis Beach. But Women's tennis and track and field aren't revenue-producing sports. The women's tennis team doesn't play in a 35,000 seat stadium, doesn't have nationally televised matches and doesn't have a huge promotional infrastructure promoting paid attendance.

The valid comparison, IMO, isn't Duke football versus Duke's women's tennis but Duke football versus the football programs of other BCS football schools. Women's tennis isn't designed to help pay for other sports. Football is. That's why small crowds are a concern. It's lost money.

[OldPhiKap]

Congrats to the team on what sounded like a very good effort. Time to focus on the road test ahead.

Re: attendance -- it's a chicken and egg thing. Cut and the players can put butts in the seat if they start putting out a product that folks consistently want to go see. I believe we will get there, and sooner than many give us credit for being able to do. But, unfortunately, our history and lack of local base (in comparison to other schools) means that the burden is on the team to step up first. Not saying that's right -- but I think that's the reality.

And we can do it. Already on the road.

[killerleft]

When Curtis Beach was putting up a record setting performance in the decathlon at the ACC championships held at duke this spring, he probably looked up in the stands and saw there were very few duke fans. Why does a mediocre football team deserve more fan support than a top collegiate decathlete? The women's tennis team won a national championship a year ago. They probably get a few hundred at their matches. Do they deserve more? I want duke games to have a huge turnout also. But I don't for a second pretend for a second that the team is any more deserving of support than any other campus venture, or that students somehow have a duty to come out to football games.

That aside, I imagine it is discouraging for the team, but I also imagine that they have very realistic expectations as to what to expect each game. I'm sure they were thrilled at the turnout of the first two games, and realized that this game, against a minor OOC opponent probably wasn't going to have a huge turnout. I would think that the ACC games would see a much larger turnout. If the team ever got to 5 wins, every subsequent home game would be very well attended...I'll admit, I was not at the game today despite being on campus. I spent 3 hours in the biddle building practice rooms. I had the game on espn3, yes, but a game which I thought we would win handily would not have been very enjoyable to me. So I did other things. When we get to the ACC games, especially if we have 3 or 4 wins, I'll come, becuase we'll have a chance to do something special as opposed to beating up on a overmatched team.

People have said that we shouldn't start bowl talk, but I'll be honest, nothing would get me more excited for duke football (and thus go to games) than the possibility of going to a bowl. That's what will get me to go to games and make it worth 3-4 hours on a saturday instead of doing other things.

Great! I sure hope we can one day be your team that you'll support as long as they win for you and keep you amused, and maybe the weather is good and the creek don't rise.

[Sixthman]

Yeah there was a lot of rain in the morning, but the gametime weather was fine, quite nice even. Not sure if it had an effect, but I suppose it could have dampened the festivities

No doubt the weather discouraged people from coming, as it was only about 45 minutes before game time when there was any suggestion locally that it was not going to rain throughout the game. The student attendance was not great, and most of those who came arrived significantly after the opening kickoff. I imagine that a lot of groups (such as high school teams, etc ...) who typically come to the games, cancelled due to the weather. That said, for those who did not see the game, it was very strange. Not only did we dominate the game, but in a way, it felt as if we were not playing as well as we are capable of playing. It was unmistakeable that the majority of the hard hits doled out in the game came from Tulane, rather than Duke (in fact, it seemed nearly as if the roughing the passer rule had been suspended for the game). We played with confidence and some ease, but not a lot of energy. Early in the second half, a Tulane defender took Renfree down hard, and while Sean was on his back being seen to by our trainers, you could easily hear the players on the Tulane sidelines vocally celebrating Renfree's injury. It was so quiet in the stadium I could hear what they were saying from accross the field, and no doubt our players could too. It was the kind of thing that needed some clear, clean, authoritative on the field hitting in response. That never came. We controlled the line of scrimage, on both sides of the ball -- which is very gratifying, we had a number of three and outs on defense, but to me, our defensive pursuit of the ball was poor -- the worst it has been this season, by far. On offense, only our own mistakes could stop our first team offense. We were the clearly better team, and I am hoping that once we established this, we were perhaps keeping our power dry for the next game.

[duke79]

Great! I sure hope we can one day be your team that you'll support as long as they win for you and keep you amused, and maybe the weather is good and the creek don't rise.

Well said !!! I don't care what excuses people come up with to NOT attend the games, but I still maintain that Coach Cut and the team deserve MORE support.

[6th Man]

When Curtis Beach was putting up a record setting performance in the decathlon at the ACC championships held at duke this spring, he probably looked up in the stands and saw there were very few duke fans. Why does a mediocre football team deserve more fan support than a top collegiate decathlete? The women's tennis team won a national championship a year ago. They probably get a few hundred at their matches. Do they deserve more? I want duke games to have a huge turnout also. But I don't for a second pretend for a second that the team is any more deserving of support than any other campus venture, or that students somehow have a duty to come out to football games.

You have to look no further than all of this conference realignment to see and understand the importance of football. Why do so many folks on this board get so defensive anytime someone mentions the fact that we need more fan support?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Regarding the attendance at the game: driving from Winston-Salem to get to the game required driving in rain so heavy that people drove with their flashing lights on. There were numerous accidents. The heavy rain continued in Alamance County to the edge of Orange County. When the rains hit Durham prior to the game, the water came down so heavily we rinsed some of our tailgate dishes in the runoff from the roofs of the tents. There is no doubt that such weather discouraged any who had not yet left to head to the game.

Middle school football teams were there in great numbers. We saw many such groups before the rains hit. Few were in the stadium as the game progressed. Lastly, the students' attendance was seriously hampered by the rain. While it is true that doubts about how the team would play may have kept many for the game, the weather played a major role as well.

[CDu]

Good, solid win today. Admittedly, Tulane is not a great team, but, nonetheless, Duke looked good on both offense and defense. We'll see how the team executes once we start playing better teams in the ACC. I have to say that I was very dismayed when I saw the video shot of the stands at the beginning of the game (on ESPN3). To me, it looked like no more than 1/4 of the seats were filled. I can't imagine the official attendance was over 10,000. Maybe more fans came after the game started. But I really think Coach Cut and the players DESERVE more support from the students and others in the Durham community. I understand the argument that Duke is really a basketball school and no one cares about football but this was truly shameful. I've seen high school football games that had more fans. I wonder what Coach Cut thinks when he comes out on the field and looks up at the stands and see huge numbers of empty seats, especially after coaching at Tennessee where they get 78,000 (or some similar number) at every game. It HAS to be discouraging for him.

I was at the game, and it was probably about 1/3 to 1/2 full. The end zone and edges were sparsely filled, but the sections between the 20s were fairly full. As for the crowd, what did you expect? The weather was terrible right up until kickoff (then it got pretty nice), and the opponent was a small school with a terrible football team from fairly far away. There were a lot of factors that played against there being a lot of attendance.

That said, I'm sure it's discouraging to see only 20,000-25,000 fans at the games. But that's the difference between coaching at a big state school with a historically good football team and a small private school that hasn't been consistently good for ~20 years.

If we start winning consistently, we'll see the fans come. But until then, I don't think it's reasonable to expect big crowds to show up to watch a bad team.

[CDu]

The valid comparison, IMO, isn't Duke football versus Duke's women's tennis but Duke football versus the football programs of other BCS football schools. Women's tennis isn't designed to help pay for other sports. Football is. That's why small crowds are a concern. It's lost money.

When Wake Forest wasn't very good, it had terrible attendance at football games too (I went to a couple of those games). I'm guessing the same is true for Northwestern. When you're a small private school that doesn't play well, it can be tough to put butts in the seats. You've got to give people a reason to show up, and that means putting a winning team on the field. Games like today will help. Games like Richmond hurt.

The attendance will go up in the next few weeks, when we play FSU and Va Tech. Unfortunately, that will be because the opponents' fans travel well. And unfortunately those won't likely be wins for us, which won't help boost Duke fan attendance.

[OldPhiKap]

When Wake Forest wasn't very good, it had terrible attendance at football games too (I went to a couple of those games). I'm guessing the same is true for Northwestern. When you're a small private school that doesn't play well, it can be tough to put butts in the seats. You've got to give people a reason to show up, and that means putting a winning team on the field. Games like today will help. Games like Richmond hurt.

The attendance will go up in the next few weeks, when we play FSU and Va Tech. Unfortunately, that will be because the opponents' fans travel well. And unfortunately those won't likely be wins for us, which won't help boost Duke fan attendance.

All true. Although if we pull out a big win, the tide starts to turn. Performance on the field -- consistently, and over time -- is the best way to build attendance.

And I do not think that is an impossible task. We need to execute at a very high level, and maybe hope for some luck to bouce our way. But it can be done.

[CDu]

All true. Although if we pull out a big win, the tide starts to turn. Performance on the field -- consistently, and over time -- is the best way to build attendance.

And I do not think that is an impossible task. We need to execute at a very high level, and maybe hope for some luck to bouce our way. But it can be done.

Agreed. It's not impossible to build a fan base. It's just that the program has kicked the fans in the teeth so many times in the past 15 years that it's going to take some work. It may even take a bowl berth to make it happen. But if we start winning consistently at home, fans will show up. Wins like today will help. Wins against a team like Ga Tech and Wake Forest would help more (I'm not ready to entertain the possibility of beating FSU or Va Tech).

[Greg_Newton]

Attendance was 20,138. Camera angles did not show the entire crowd. Certainly not good attendance, especially for homecoming, but this was Tulane.

Yeah, the side you didn't see on TV was pretty full, actually. However, I was surprised how empty the rest of the place was. The interesting thing is there was almost nobody in the general admission section (despite how cheap those tickets are), it was just the reserved sections on the sidelines. To me, that says that we lost the on-the-fence, casual fans with the Richmond loss.

Heartbreaker for Anunike. That one really hurts. I'm getting worried about injuries in general; we're losing a concerning number of our playmakers. We don't have much depth in the secondary, as evidenced by the 4th quarter (and how much Greene got beat); really hope Cockrell and Butler's hammies heal up soon.

Everything else looked great, though; defense quietly continues to do everything we could ask of it, Thompson and Crowder both quietly continue to grow into big-time players, Renfree and Vernon continue to show serious heart. Really hope the red-zone success can help us overcome the scoring issues.

Anyway, we were completely dominant while the starters were in, which isn't something we get to say much. It was almost surreal to look around late in the game and see so many relaxed, smiling faces! ;)

[uh_no]

You have to look no further than all of this conference realignment to see and understand the importance of football. Why do so many folks on this board get so defensive anytime someone mentions the fact that we need more fan support?

I agree that fan support is essential in the whole conference realignment, getting money thing (and in that sense, duke needs more fan support), but I will not agree that there is any sort of moral argument that the football team "deserves" some sort of support for their efforts.

[J.Blink]

Yeah, the side you didn't see on TV was pretty full, actually. However, I was surprised how empty the rest of the place was. The interesting thing is there was almost nobody in the general admission section (despite how cheap those tickets are), it was just the reserved sections on the sidelines. To me, that says that we lost the on-the-fence, casual fans with the Richmond loss.

Alternatively, I sit in section 28,and during the course of the game several families moved from elsewhere in the stadium to better sections. When seats midfield are only sparsely filled, why sit in GA if you don't have to? Not great attendance but I think it was almost entirely due to the weather.

So glad for the entire team that we finally got a really big, crushing, decisive, overpowering win! Hope the parade of injuries during the game turn out to be mostly minor, and let's go get FIU!

[DueBlevil]

I agree that fan support is essential in the whole conference realignment, getting money thing (and in that sense, duke needs more fan support), but I will not agree that there is any sort of moral argument that the football team "deserves" some sort of support for their efforts.

Yeah I feel like this argument has played out before on this board, and the fact is that people are just going to fundamentally disagree on this. One argument is that the football team should be supported unconditionally by students at the least because it is associated with Duke and the team needs (or "deserves") for us to be there because that's what happens at other BCS schools. Other people think that people should show up if they want to, and it is the job of the team (and coaches/administration) to make people want to go. I don't think either point of view can be totally discarded, and people are just simply going to disagree on this.

My 2 cents is that what the team "deserves" is to be fully supported by the administration (this has really only happened recently) because it is part of what the administration is paid to do: make Duke the best it can be and support the university's mission in that regard. Fan support is earned. No other BCS program has had to endure what Duke football has had to endure in the past 20 years, and blaming the fans for that is just not right. Assuming that everyone will just automatically jump on the bus now because other (much larger public) schools can get 70,000+ fans is unrealistic.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Well said !!! I don't care what excuses people come up with to NOT attend the games, but I still maintain that Coach Cut and the team deserve MORE support.

I was embarrassed for Coach Cut the Duke football program today. A sound homecoming victory appreciated by a lot of fans dressed up as empty seats. Any recruits in the stands would have been unimpressed with the support the program received today.

[davekay1971]

Congratulations to the team for the dominant victory! I'm one of the guilty parties that couldn't make it - family commitments had me in Greenville and actually at the ECU football game. Seeing a lopsided victory in Duke's favor is always good, and I can tell you that, in my section of the ECU game, there was an audible reaction of surprise when the Duke-Tulane scores would flash up on the scoreboard. People still expect Duke football to lose, so seeing us crush somebody is a good thing!

[diveonthefloor]

Looking at the Sagarin ratings, Tulane is by far the weakest team we will play this year (139)

Here are the rest:
Richmond 104
Stanford 6
BC 94
FIU 75
FSU 37
WF 63
VaTech 9
Mia 45
Uva 73
GT 16
UNC 32

Duke itself is now listed at 97.
If Sagarin predictions hold true, we will be underdogs in each and all of our remaining games. All hail the underdog!

[sagegrouse]

We didn't get in our football funk in three years, and we are not going to get out of it in three years-- either on the field or in attendance. That said, Duke is doing better.

In Cutcliffe's first three years, attendance at 20 home games has averaged 28,061. In Roof's last three years, attendance averaged 19,017 in 18 home games. That's an increase of 48% in attendance.

On the field, Duke won 33.3% of all its games under Cutcliffe and 5.7% under Roof. One can reasonably assume that if Duke wins one-half or more of its games, as I expect, attendance will increase even more. Heck, we may even need to expand the stadium.

sagegrouse

[CDu]

Yeah I feel like this argument has played out before on this board, and the fact is that people are just going to fundamentally disagree on this. One argument is that the football team should be supported unconditionally by students at the least because it is associated with Duke and the team needs (or "deserves") for us to be there because that's what happens at other BCS schools. Other people think that people should show up if they want to, and it is the job of the team (and coaches/administration) to make people want to go. I don't think either point of view can be totally discarded, and people are just simply going to disagree on this.

My 2 cents is that what the team "deserves" is to be fully supported by the administration (this has really only happened recently) because it is part of what the administration is paid to do: make Duke the best it can be and support the university's mission in that regard. Fan support is earned. No other BCS program has had to endure what Duke football has had to endure in the past 20 years, and blaming the fans for that is just not right. Assuming that everyone will just automatically jump on the bus now because other (much larger public) schools can get 70,000+ fans is unrealistic.

I agree with you, and wanted to emphasize the bolded argument. "Other BCS" schools is a very broad brush. I suspect that if you look at other small, private, unsuccessful BCS programs (i.e., programs more comparable to Duke), you'd see similar attendance woes. For example, when Wake Forest was terrible, they didn't get fan support either. Comparing us to large, public universities with even mediocre football programs is apples to oranges.

[formerdukeathlete]

Agreed. It's not impossible to build a fan base. It's just that the program has kicked the fans in the teeth so many times in the past 15 years that it's going to take some work. It may even take a bowl berth to make it happen. But if we start winning consistently at home, fans will show up. Wins like today will help. Wins against a team like Ga Tech and Wake Forest would help more (I'm not ready to entertain the possibility of beating FSU or Va Tech).

While this win is gratifying, we did not control the line as well as we might have, and Renfree was hit too much and too often.

On the matter of attendance, the team's lackluster showings against Richmond and Stanford are to blame there. And, that falls right on Cut's shoulders. Either it was being too conservative - Richmond, or misses in recruiting, recruiting too many projects rather than focusing on highly sought after players - the talent differential was huge against Stanford.

In his post game comments Cut acknowledged being too conservative in our first two games. These were self-inflicted wounds. I think it would help if we want greater revenue in Football to schedule teams our fans have an interest in watching us play. Tulane would not travel well. Its nice to beat a Conference USA team, but it will be difficult to fill the stadium. Showcase Football in an improved Wade Stadium against major program teams.

We may be recruiting more talent now than Roof did, but I think not as much as in Roof's 05 class before the wheels fell off his program. We need big tough players on the line like Stanford. Then we will control the line; our QBs wont be getting beaten up so easily. Opposing team members wont be cheering about injuring our QB; they will be too roughed up to play such dirty Football.

[J.Blink]

While this win is gratifying, we did not control the line as well as we might have, and Renfree was hit too much and too often.

On the matter of attendance, the team's lackluster showings against Richmond and Stanford are to blame there. And, that falls right on Cut's shoulders. Either it was being too conservative - Richmond, or misses in recruiting, recruiting too many projects rather than focusing on highly sought after players - the talent differential was huge against Stanford.

In his post game comments Cut acknowledged being too conservative in our first two games. These were self-inflicted wounds. I think it would help if we want greater revenue in Football to schedule teams our fans have an interest in watching us play. Tulane would not travel well. Its nice to beat a Conference USA team, but it will be difficult to fill the stadium. Showcase Football in an improved Wade Stadium against major program teams.

We may be recruiting more talent now than Roof did, but I think not as much as in Roof's 05 class before the wheels fell off his program. We need big tough players on the line like Stanford. Then we will control the line; our QBs wont be getting beaten up so easily. Opposing team members wont be cheering about injuring our QB; they will be too roughed up to play such dirty Football.

Can't you be happy about Duke's performance for even a minute? We haven't had as solid a win in years. I think everybody here knows you don't like Cut, but after a disastrous (close! but disastrous) first game, I think Cut AND THE TEAM have earned some respect and a respite from the whining!

I fully admit to being quite upset after the Richmond game, but the consistency of some of the Debbie Downers on this board is rather amazing.

Edited: I should add that I DO agree with some of your criticisms, FDA (primarily academic standards), but come on, as long as the program stays clean--and Cutcliffe seems an honorable man above all else--winning is winning!

[CDu]

On the matter of attendance, the team's lackluster showings against Richmond and Stanford are to blame there. And, that falls right on Cut's shoulders. Either it was being too conservative - Richmond, or misses in recruiting, recruiting too many projects rather than focusing on highly sought after players - the talent differential was huge against Stanford.

I'd say it was the combination of the rough first two home games (moreso the Richmond debacle - we were expected to get walloped by Stanford) AND the awful pre-game weather. I could definitely understand people deciding not to brave the weather (which only turned out to be a non-issue at the last minute) to sit through what could have been another disappointment.

I'm glad that I decided to go ahead and use my tickets, as the weather and game turned out very nice.

[Olympic Fan]

I'd rather not get bogged down in debates about the crowd and/or Duke's bowl chances at this time.

I kind of feel like wins like this are so rare that we ought to take at least a little time to celebrate and appreciate it. I think you have to go back to Cut's first year to find a game where we dominated a comparable opponent in a similar fashion. Maybe that 49-28 win at NC State in 2009, but that one was close for a half (remember, we couldn't stop them and they couldn't stop us). The NCCU win in 2009 was that lopsided, but NCCU isn't near the level of Tulane (which isn't great, but is a respectable FBS team -- one that came to Durham 2-1, coming off a huge victory over UAB). I think you have to go back to the 31-3 victory over Virginia in Cut's fourth game of the 2008 season to find a comparable match.

So GREAT win.

It was great because as Cut said, we were close to excellence in all three phases of the game. The offense would have been flawless, except for the one interception (returned for a TD) that Renfree threw and the one lateral that we didn't go after. Other than that, the running game was productive (I can't help thinking how productive it would have been if Scott and/or Snead had been available to share the load with Juwan), the passing game was sharp and best of all, we were perfect in the red zone! We could have scored 60, but Cut shut it down in the fourth corner and let a bunch of guys -- including almost all the walk-ons play. Good for him.

The kicking game was also nearly perfect. Great that Will returned and finally got out of his FG slump (and he kicked off great too). Great that Ijjas got a chance and kicked his first FG. Our coverage was great and we had some nice returns -- although the best of them (Crowder's 70-yard punt return) was called back for a bogus clipping penalty.

But to me, the best news was the continued growth of this defense. I know that coming into the game, Tulane thought they would struggle to stop Duke, but were confident that they could move the ball. Instead, Duke stopped them cold for more than three quarters until Cut again called off the dogs and started subbing freely on defense (the last Tulane drive was accomplished against an all freshman defensive front, two third-team LBs and four third-team DBs).

But they could not move the ball against our real defense. We got consistent pressure, stuffed the run and did a great job in coverage -- Matt Daniels has always been a great hitter. When did he become a great coverage safety too (I think he now leads the nation in pass breakups)? Knowles was able to play a bunch of people up front (I mean during the meat of the game, not counting the bench-clearing in the fourth quarter).

The biggest concern I see going forward is the accumulation of injuries. Losing Kenny Anunike is heartbreaking -- the kid has worked so hard to come back from knee injury. To go out now is painful on a personal level ... and for the team (he was our best pass rusher). No idea how bad the injuries are to Lee Butler and Ross Cockrell, but we really need them back.

If we get those two veteran DBs back and can get either Scott and/or Snead back soon, I'd feel pretty good going on. I'll never get over the Richmond loss, but this team is growing and getting better. To me, the future looks really good -- as the kids on both lines grow up, we're going to be much tougher. I'm not a former Duke athlete, but I strongly believe this program is headed in the right direction. I believe it's right on the edge of success -- as long as we're not derailed by the health issue.

PS Okay, one comment about the crowds. One thing we know is that when Duke has success, the crowds come out of the woodwork. In both 1989 and 1994, when Duke started winning, we started packing Wallace Wade. It will happen again.

[chrishoke]

These are exciting times to be a Duke football fan. We have an improving good young team that is a lot of fun to watch. Time to get on the band wagon. Keep getting better guys - lots of correctable mistakes to work on - stay hungry.

[watzone]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/09/charlie-hartcher-and-juwon-thompson-talk-of-the-victory-over-tulane/ Charlie Hatcher and Juwon Thompson talk of the big win.

[killerleft]

We're getting better, no doubt. Even with a bunch of injuries hamstringing us, we're getting better.

The defense has done a great job of shrugging off the yolk of negativity (kinda like having an FDA on your back whispering "You're no good and not smart enough..." all the time) that has surrounded that unit for years. Of course, we still have some improvements to make to become a strong unit. But these guys are NOT the Duke defense of old.

The offense has been closing in on excellence for a couple years now. Our best runner is down and still we run. Our line has had to make adjustments, and still we run - not with the success we WILL have, but this Duke offense is very close to being able to keep us in games and win games we couldn't have dreamed of winning in years past. We may have some weird play calls from time to time, bet our offense has quietly become a time-guzzler, and that has kept the defense fresher and able to compete in the fourth quarter.

It is very important to know that we are a healthy Will Snyderwine away from being a legitimate 3-1, and we could have easily been even with Stanford at halftime.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see our special teams become one of the best in the ACC before the end of the year. This group bears little resemblance to past Duke groups, either.

Duke University has made a commitment to Football that, considering the spotty help given in the still-recent past, is astounding. I don't think that even the most optimistic of us would have believed that this could have happened, but here we are.

It is very easy to point out what we aren't doing well. Just look at this thread. If Coach Cutcliffe hadn't called off the dogs, we were well on the way to scoring 60 or more points while giving up probably 14 points less than we did. Incredibly, for some people, the glass must never be half full. We finally put a team on the field that totally outclassed its opponent, which has been rare in the last 15 years (at least!), and STILL all some of us have to do is let everybody know what we DID NOT do well.

Criticism is natural, and has its place. But I cannot understand how even the most critical Duke fans don't see the potential in our football team. We've had an abnormal amount of injuries to key personnel, but still we improve. The coaching staff is obviously doing a good job overall, or we wouldn't be where we are.

As always, I make an appeal to those Duke fans who can make it to games but somehow don't get to the stadium on game days. Come on out and help us win some more games. More fans are what we need right now. We're at the point where having an enthusiastic fanbase can make all the difference between winning and losing. Frankly, if you're waiting for Duke to win lots before you come to Wallace Wade, it may be true that you are insuring that it will take longer to get the team to the level that we all want Duke to reach.

[throatybeard]

The defense has done a great job of shrugging off the yolk of negativity (kinda like having an FDA on your back whispering "You're no good and not smart enough..." all the time) that has surrounded that unit for years.

Don't forget not tall enough. :D

[killerleft]

Don't forget not tall enough. :D

:) Yep! Poor Thad Lewis shorted himself right into the NFL, the only QB under 6'5" ever to do that! As we hopefully get more and more good ballplayers, and as we get farther away from Thad's time at Duke, just how good he was becomes ever more apparent. I wear my #9 tshirt for a reason. Perhaps tiny Anthony Boone will see a lot of Lewis film, if he hasn't already.

[devildeac]

:) Yep! Poor Thad Lewis shorted himself right into the NFL, the only QB under 6'5" ever to do that! As we hopefully get more and more good ballplayers, and as we get farther away from Thad's time at Duke, just how good he was becomes ever more apparent. I wear my #9 tshirt for a reason.

And Ozzie wears his 9F shirt for two reasons.;)

[OldPhiKap]

We're getting better, no doubt. Even with a bunch of injuries hamstringing us, we're getting better.

The defense has done a great job of shrugging off the yolk of negativity (kinda like having an FDA on your back whispering "You're no good and not smart enough..." all the time) that has surrounded that unit for years. Of course, we still have some improvements to make to become a strong unit. But these guys are NOT the Duke defense of old.

The offense has been closing in on excellence for a couple years now. Our best runner is down and still we run. Our line has had to make adjustments, and still we run - not with the success we WILL have, but this Duke offense is very close to being able to keep us in games and win games we couldn't have dreamed of winning in years past. We may have some weird play calls from time to time, bet our offense has quietly become a time-guzzler, and that has kept the defense fresher and able to compete in the fourth quarter.

It is very important to know that we are a healthy Will Snyderwine away from being a legitimate 3-1, and we could have easily been even with Stanford at halftime.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see our special teams become one of the best in the ACC before the end of the year. This group bears little resemblance to past Duke groups, either.

Duke University has made a commitment to Football that, considering the spotty help given in the still-recent past, is astounding. I don't think that even the most optimistic of us would have believed that this could have happened, but here we are.

It is very easy to point out what we aren't doing well. Just look at this thread. If Coach Cutcliffe hadn't called off the dogs, we were well on the way to scoring 60 or more points while giving up probably 14 points less than we did. Incredibly, for some people, the glass must never be half full. We finally put a team on the field that totally outclassed its opponent, which has been rare in the last 15 years (at least!), and STILL all some of us have to do is let everybody know what we DID NOT do well.

Criticism is natural, and has its place. But I cannot understand how even the most critical Duke fans don't see the potential in our football team. We've had an abnormal amount of injuries to key personnel, but still we improve. The coaching staff is obviously doing a good job overall, or we wouldn't be where we are.

As always, I make an appeal to those Duke fans who can make it to games but somehow don't get to the stadium on game days. Come on out and help us win some more games. More fans are what we need right now. We're at the point where having an enthusiastic fanbase can make all the difference between winning and losing. Frankly, if you're waiting for Duke to win lots before you come to Wallace Wade, it may be true that you are insuring that it will take longer to get the team to the level that we all want Duke to reach.

Could not say any of this better, extremely well-said. Time to tighten up and get ready for the next challenge! OPK

[killerleft]

And Ozzie wears his 9F shirt for two reasons.;)

I thought of that after I posted the reply!:p

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Victory should be sweet and savored..... victory seasoned with a little spice from NOLA.... delish!:D

In our section there was a lot of conversation about wanting to play Tulane in the future.... home and away.:cool:

[PDDuke85]

Mrs PDDuke and I made the trek up from Charleston, SC, Friday night, after work. Aside from pockets of fog, the weather was OK for the trip. Saturday, our tailgate moved inside to the car to allow for the final shower to pass through. We do this on a regular basis for many reasons. I can't put into words what my Duke education has done for me through the years. Not enough time, space, vocabulary. After I concluded my Air Force career, we dropped the anchor in the Charleston, SC area. Since 2002, we've attended football games as often as possible, having seen a wide variety of outcomes. The low point being Frank's last game after the boys were eviscerated by Wake Forest on homecoming. We continue to attend because of our love for the University, our commitment to the fine young men and women on the football team, cheerleading squad, and our own DUMB, and my being a sports junkie as well.

The transformation for this football program over the past 4 years is huge. I have all the faith in the world in coach Cutcliffe to resuscitate this program previously left for dead. I can't, for the world, fathom how there can be such apathy on campus. Please students, show up, scream, support your classmates, your program, your school.

We intend to continue our treks up I 95 every fall. Depending on work schedule, hoping to make it a seasons ticket arrangement.
We're fairly affable folks so if you're going to join us at Wallace Wade, as soon as bowl eligibility is the norm or as soon as it's cool to be seen at a football game, say hey. We'll be happy to share our experiences of watching the resurrection.

[formerdukeathlete]

We're getting better, no doubt. Even with a bunch of injuries hamstringing us, we're getting better.

The defense has done a great job of shrugging off the yolk of negativity (kinda like having an FDA on your back whispering "You're no good and not smart enough..." all the time) that has surrounded that unit for years. Of course, we still have some improvements to make to become a strong unit. But these guys are NOT the Duke defense of old.

The offense has been closing in on excellence for a couple years now. Our best runner is down and still we run. Our line has had to make adjustments, and still we run - not with the success we WILL have, but this Duke offense is very close to being able to keep us in games and win games we couldn't have dreamed of winning in years past. We may have some weird play calls from time to time, bet our offense has quietly become a time-guzzler, and that has kept the defense fresher and able to compete in the fourth quarter.

It is very important to know that we are a healthy Will Snyderwine away from being a legitimate 3-1, and we could have easily been even with Stanford at halftime.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see our special teams become one of the best in the ACC before the end of the year. This group bears little resemblance to past Duke groups, either.

Duke University has made a commitment to Football that, considering the spotty help given in the still-recent past, is astounding. I don't think that even the most optimistic of us would have believed that this could have happened, but here we are.

It is very easy to point out what we aren't doing well. Just look at this thread. If Coach Cutcliffe hadn't called off the dogs, we were well on the way to scoring 60 or more points while giving up probably 14 points less than we did. Incredibly, for some people, the glass must never be half full. We finally put a team on the field that totally outclassed its opponent, which has been rare in the last 15 years (at least!), and STILL all some of us have to do is let everybody know what we DID NOT do well.

Criticism is natural, and has its place. But I cannot understand how even the most critical Duke fans don't see the potential in our football team. We've had an abnormal amount of injuries to key personnel, but still we improve. The coaching staff is obviously doing a good job overall, or we wouldn't be where we are.

As always, I make an appeal to those Duke fans who can make it to games but somehow don't get to the stadium on game days. Come on out and help us win some more games. More fans are what we need right now. We're at the point where having an enthusiastic fanbase can make all the difference between winning and losing. Frankly, if you're waiting for Duke to win lots before you come to Wallace Wade, it may be true that you are insuring that it will take longer to get the team to the level that we all want Duke to reach.

Hey, I think Duke can recruit better Football players. We did so in the past. I think Cut can recruit better to Duke, better athletically and much better in terms of the athletic academic combination. Cut pushed several 700s SAT math verbals (at least several) on admissions in the 2011 class, who were not in the top half of their high school classes, one not even projected to be NCAA eligible at the time, all the while he did not offer a number highly sought after prospects with well north of 1000 math verbal. My take is that Cut is a very honorable man. Fiercely competitive, AND independent. OK, so we need to work with that. But, lets help him get it straight recruiting to an elite academic institution. Gene Banks came to Duke with 850ish math verbal SATs, but he was top 25% of his high school class. With Cut, why the huge disconnect in approach? I think it was a function of a lack of direction from the administration, or that he had requested more leeway as a condition to taking the job. I will agree that he is doing better in screening for the 2012 class, but, still our recruiting classes should not average at least 200 math verbal SAT points below Stanford and Northwestern, and should not rank lower than Northwestern athletically.

[Newton_14]

Hey, I think Duke can recruit better Football players. We did so in the past. I think Cut can recruit better to Duke, better athletically and much better in terms of the athletic academic combination. Cut pushed several 700s SAT math verbals (at least several) on admissions in the 2011 class, who were not in the top half of their high school classes, one not even projected to be NCAA eligible at the time, all the while he did not offer a number highly sought after prospects with well north of 1000 math verbal. My take is that Cut is a very honorable man. Fiercely competitive, AND independent. OK, so we need to work with that. But, lets help him get it straight recruiting to an elite academic institution. Gene Banks came to Duke with 850ish math verbal SATs, but he was top 25% of his high school class. With Cut, why the huge disconnect in approach? I think it was a function of a lack of direction from the administration, or that he had requested more leeway as a condition to taking the job. I will agree that he is doing better in screening for the 2012 class, but, still our recruiting classes should not average at least 200 math verbal SAT points below Stanford and Northwestern, and should not rank lower than Northwestern athletically.

You have put this out there as "fact" several times now. Source? Link?

[formerdukeathlete]

You have put this out there as "fact" several times now. Source? Link?

I can post individual data available on the internet if you wish, but, this about the 2011 class is pretty widely known. Joe Watson, for example, from Davie County High School was not projected NCAA eligible when he was offered and committed to Duke. Admissions had to say no, and there are other examples.

[Scorp4me]

On the matter of attendance, the team's lackluster showings against Richmond and Stanford are to blame there. And, that falls right on Cut's shoulders.

We lost to Richmond, it was disappointing. I was disappointed. We lost to Stanford despite playing them tough for almost a half. Won a close BC game. And dominated Tulane. I'll say it again, if you can't see the improvement from the Franks/Roof era then you shouldn't be posting about Duke football. If someone like Cut can't win at Duke we're in big trouble! Luckily I don't think that is the case.

As for the attendance, I think the abysmal weather had more to do with it than anything. The weather was terrible. We had our ponchos and were ready for a day of wet football. I know only the diehards in my circle came to this game and reason for the ones who didn't had nothing to do with any of the previous games, it had to do with the weather. It's an excuse, I know, but the excuse was the weather. I don't even believe deep down it was the Richmond/Stanford game. It was the weather.

I'd also like to say I've been critical of the students in the past, particularly their tailgate. Not this year. As I walked through the quad on my way to the game against Stanford I thought, this is the first time I've seen a pre-game that made me wish I was an alumni and not just a fan. As much as Cut has seem to brought in more competitive recruits, he has connected with the students more as well. The students have done a better job this year.

[killerleft]

Hey, I think Duke can recruit better Football players. We did so in the past. I think Cut can recruit better to Duke, better athletically and much better in terms of the athletic academic combination. Cut pushed several 700s SAT math verbals (at least several) on admissions in the 2011 class, who were not in the top half of their high school classes, one not even projected to be NCAA eligible at the time, all the while he did not offer a number highly sought after prospects with well north of 1000 math verbal. My take is that Cut is a very honorable man. Fiercely competitive, AND independent. OK, so we need to work with that. But, lets help him get it straight recruiting to an elite academic institution. Gene Banks came to Duke with 850ish math verbal SATs, but he was top 25% of his high school class. With Cut, why the huge disconnect in approach? I think it was a function of a lack of direction from the administration, or that he had requested more leeway as a condition to taking the job. I will agree that he is doing better in screening for the 2012 class, but, still our recruiting classes should not average at least 200 math verbal SAT points below Stanford and Northwestern, and should not rank lower than Northwestern athletically.

I don't see a scenario that did not include Coach Cut outlining his vision for a Duke program that wins football games and graduates student-athletes. The administration hired him, so they must be onboard with who Cut recruits. I'll take your word that the next class is, on paper, better equipped to excel in the classroom. But if our present players continue to graduate at the level that Duke has come to expect from them, I'd say your argument here is full of holes. Do you want football players that graduate or do they have be "elite" as well? If indeed these guys are coming in poorly equipped to be Duke students, and they are staying eligible and on track to get diplomas, I'd say that's a feather in everybody's cap! Just let's not tell Carolina how to do it the honorable way, because, uh..., I like it when they screw up!

[formerdukeathlete]

I don't see a scenario that did not include Coach Cut outlining his vision for a Duke program that wins football games and graduates student-athletes. The administration hired him, so they must be onboard with who Cut recruits. I'll take your word that the next class is, on paper, better equipped to excel in the classroom. But if our present players continue to graduate at the level that Duke has come to expect from them, I'd say your argument here is full of holes. Do you want football players that graduate or do they have be "elite" as well? If indeed these guys are coming in poorly equipped to be Duke students, and they are staying eligible and on track to get diplomas, I'd say that's a feather in everybody's cap! Just let's not tell Carolina how to do it the honorable way, because, uh..., I like it when they screw up!

The academic information I refer to is recruit provided data typically listed on rivals profiles.

Admissions IS friendlier to invited walkons for Football these days; over 20% of the current sqad are walkons. A walkon who receives financial aid would count toward the 25 a year, 85 total scholarship limit (and thus be a negative for the Program), unless among other things they would be admissible to Duke in a general sense. Tevin Hood, son of a Duke grad and now transferred to Yale and on the Yale Football team after playing for Duke for one season, is an example. He was a national merit finalist. My take is that walkons average above 1300 math verbal, which helps.

[Reilly]

Some were critical of Cut for going for it on 4th and 1 in his own territory in a scoreless Richmond game. I liked the call as I believe teams should go for it much more often on 4th and short overall, and I liked Cut trying to generate momentum (much needed) in that Richmond game.

Against Tulane, in the 2d quarter, it was 24-10 Duke, and Duke faced a 4th and 1 in its own territory (I think) ... went for it, got it, completed an 8 minute back-breaking drive, and went up 31-10, effectively putting the game away. If Duke punts there, Tulane's driving to make it a 1-score game ....

[Wander]

Some were critical of Cut for going for it on 4th and 1 in his own territory in a scoreless Richmond game. I liked the call as I believe teams should go for it much more often on 4th and short overall, and I liked Cut trying to generate momentum (much needed) in that Richmond game.

Against Tulane, in the 2d quarter, it was 24-10 Duke, and Duke faced a 4th and 1 in its own territory (I think) ... went for it, got it, completed an 8 minute back-breaking drive, and went up 31-10, effectively putting the game away. If Duke punts there, Tulane's driving to make it a 1-score game ....

I agree that coaches are too conservative in general, and particularly on 4th downs, but there's a difference between going for it at the beginning of a scoreless game and going for it when you're up by two touchdowns and - more importantly - have proven that you can run the ball against the defense you're facing.

[Reilly]

... there's a difference between going for it at the beginning of a scoreless game and going for it when you're up by two touchdowns and - more importantly - have proven that you can run the ball against the defense you're facing.

One such difference might be this: if up two scores, go ahead and punt. Do not give the other team momentum and the ball on your side of the field. Play it safe. In other words, perhaps *more* reason to go for it in the scoreless game than when up by two scores. I think the odds of converting either situation (against UR and Tulane) are *both* very, very much in Duke's favor ... and, I think the reward of converting it against Richmond was even greater than against Tulane, given the emotional lethargy of the UR game to that point.

[CDu]

One such difference might be this: if up two scores, go ahead and punt. Do not give the other team momentum and the ball on your side of the field. Play it safe. In other words, perhaps *more* reason to go for it in the scoreless game than when up by two scores. I think the odds of converting either situation (against UR and Tulane) are *both* very, very much in Duke's favor ... and, I think the reward of converting it against Richmond was even greater than against Tulane, given the emotional lethargy of the UR game to that point.

One could also argue the exact opposite: if it's tied early, go ahead and punt. Do not give the other team momentum and the ball on your side of the field. Don't give an inferior team an easy opportunity to get the lead and gain confidence that it can get the W. Make them travel the length of the field to score.

[duke79]

Yeah I feel like this argument has played out before on this board, and the fact is that people are just going to fundamentally disagree on this. One argument is that the football team should be supported unconditionally by students at the least because it is associated with Duke and the team needs (or "deserves") for us to be there because that's what happens at other BCS schools. Other people think that people should show up if they want to, and it is the job of the team (and coaches/administration) to make people want to go. I don't think either point of view can be totally discarded, and people are just simply going to disagree on this.

My 2 cents is that what the team "deserves" is to be fully supported by the administration (this has really only happened recently) because it is part of what the administration is paid to do: make Duke the best it can be and support the university's mission in that regard. Fan support is earned. No other BCS program has had to endure what Duke football has had to endure in the past 20 years, and blaming the fans for that is just not right. Assuming that everyone will just automatically jump on the bus now because other (much larger public) schools can get 70,000+ fans is unrealistic.

Yes, maybe we (or I) should not say that Coach Cut, the players and others associated with the football team "deserve" more fan support. This is obviously not a moral issue. I mean, we're not finding a cure for cancer or feeding the starving masses in Somolia. But I think it would be nice to see more fan support from both the Duke and Durham community for the team and coaches. I know the official attendance for the game was over 20,000 but, from the looks of the stadium at the beginning of the game, I'd be amazed if there were even 10,000 people in the stands. The view of the stands from the TV angles was just disheartening and I wasn't even playing !!! I also agree that others sports at Duke should have more fan support too. No argument there from me. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I hope there are more Duke fans in the stands for the ACC games this season.

[sagegrouse]

Coach Cut had about two seconds to make a decision, and he made it. As Yogi Berra (allegedly) said, "If you come to a fork in the road, take it." I think it was a reflexive action, and it might have been a bit rash.

Coach K tells Zoubek to miss the free throw against Butler, providing columnists and sports media commentators around the country a couple of weeks of free columns. But, while K was yelling, "Miss it!," Chris Collins was yelling, "Make it!" So much for all the detailed explanations offered by K after the fact: we weren't going to win in OT; we weren't going to get any calls against Butler; a shot with three seconds left on an inbounds play has much higher probability of going in than a shot where the rebound is grabbed under the basket. Yeah, well.... K made a decision; Cut made a decision. Experienced coaches don't second-guess themselves. But next time they may make different decisions.

This is not a rant--

sagegrouse

[markbdevil]

Yes, maybe we (or I) should not say that Coach Cut, the players and others associated with the football team "deserve" more fan support. This is obviously not a moral issue. I mean, we're not finding a cure for cancer or feeding the starving masses in Somolia. But I think it would be nice to see more fan support from both the Duke and Durham community for the team and coaches. I know the official attendance for the game was over 20,000 but, from the looks of the stadium at the beginning of the game, I'd be amazed if there were even 10,000 people in the stands. The view of the stands from the TV angles was just disheartening and I wasn't even playing !!! I also agree that others sports at Duke should have more fan support too. No argument there from me. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I hope there are more Duke fans in the stands for the ACC games this season.

I was surprised the official attendance was just over 20,000. The student section was empty except for the band and about 4 rows of students. I passed more students on the Quad than in the stadium. Duke needs a 'gimmick' to attract the casual fan. I know winning will fill the stands. All Duke employees should get free or reduced tickets, the turnout for the Richmond game by Duke employees and their families was great. Those are the fans you need. Also I hope Wallace Wade Stadium will be 'upgraded' soon. The stadium needs a roof that covers only the seats, so regardless of the weather, fans will know they will be comfortable. I'm not an architect, but seems this could be done without blocking the press box view. And no games should start at noon in September, it's too hot! I know TV dictates the times, but early September in Durham can still be brutal and unsafe.
There needs to be free parking or at least not $10 a car. Duke wants to attract fans, but it seems like they do everything to turn people off.
And one more thing, paint Wallace Wade blue and white!
GO DUKE!

[DueBlevil]

I was surprised the official attendance was just over 20,000. The student section was empty except for the band and about 4 rows of students. I passed more students on the Quad than in the stadium. Duke needs a 'gimmick' to attract the casual fan. I know winning will fill the stands. All Duke employees should get free or reduced tickets, the turnout for the Richmond game by Duke employees and their families was great. Those are the fans you need. Also I hope Wallace Wade Stadium will be 'upgraded' soon. The stadium needs a roof that covers only the seats, so regardless of the weather, fans will know they will be comfortable. I'm not an architect, but seems this could be done without blocking the press box view. And no games should start at noon in September, it's too hot! I know TV dictates the times, but early September in Durham can still be brutal and unsafe.
There needs to be free parking or at least not $10 a car. Duke wants to attract fans, but it seems like they do everything to turn people off.
And one more thing, paint Wallace Wade blue and white!
GO DUKE!

Yeah I agree with you that rather than looking toward the fans to make the game day experience better, the administration needs to make the first move. In the past couple years they have finally started to show a willingness to do this. Upgraded restrooms/concessions, scoreboards, etc. but I think they can do more. I have never been to a college FB game except at Duke, so I'm not sure what exactly has been done elsewhere, but I think your suggestions about parking and the comfort of the stadium are valid.

It has always seemed to me that the administration has been waiting for the team to get better and for there to be more fan support before they make a major move to upgrade the facilities (particularly Wallace Wade) to a true BCS level. Ok I can see why they'd wait. You want to make sure the stadium will fill to a reasonable level, and success on the playing field increases the chance of getting donations to fund these upgrades. But I think the administration has to act, to PRETEND like we are a legitimate, amazing BCS team that WILL fill the stadium. The fact that we have an embarrassing stadium (sorry to the Wallace Wade apologists out there, but it is so underwhelming, even when full) feeds into the impression that students at Duke and other Durhamites largely accept of "Duke doesn't care about football."

I know this is incredibly unlikely, but if Duke was to tear down WW and build a brand new stadium (or keep WW for track and build a new stadium elsewhere, with plenty of parking :)), I think that would really create so much excitement for everyone. Even if we were to make a substantial improvement, like take out the track and add a bowl of seats around the field or something, that would really make a statement and maybe give us something to be proud of, to feel like we BELONG in the ACC. I'm sorry, new bathrooms were great and necessary, but they're not exciting and not nearly enough.

However, given that major upgrades to WW are probably not very imminent (and I understand that the funding just isn't there right now), I think there are some things that the administration can do to generate more interest. Free/reduced-price tickets for employees is a good idea, as suggested, maybe also for local youth/high school football teams (not sure if this is already done?). Painting WW is an interesting thought. Maybe making football a bigger part of orientation for freshmen to indoctrinate them a bit before they meet with the apathy of the upperclassmen. Get them all in WW and learn cheers or something. Maybe pep rallies in WW on Friday night for the entire school to get pumped for the game the next day; have like a speech from Cut and a game between intramural football teams or something else to give some entertainment and something to cheer for (not sure if that would work). More publicity around campus, huge banners across the Marketplace or Great Hall making sure everyone knows that there's a game that week. Make it a competition between frats or sororities or dormitories as to who has the best % turnout at the game. These are all just random (possibly bad) ideas, but I think maybe we need to just sort of get creative and pretend we're a big time school rather than waiting for it to actually happen on its own.

I know Cut has tried to do some things (the walk, talking with students in the marketplace), but he seems to be the only one who is actively trying to generate excitement. I think on some level the administration has a "that's not my job" attitude about it, and it very well might not be the administration's job at other schools where football is more entrenched, but at Duke I really believe the people who have the power to make some changes need to do so.

[cspan37421]

If you build it, they will come. Once something is at stake for Duke football, be it a bowl bid or a realistic chance to knock off an arch rival, I think fans will come. Short of that, you're asking for a 3+ hour commitment with nothing significant hanging on it. At 2-2, all is not lost, despite being underdogs in all our remaining games. Should we get to 3-2, or even at 3-3 with Wake Forest up next, I think you'll see a decent crowd check in to see if we can get to 4-3. If we get to 5 wins with a game left (and if 6 really does make us eligible) I think you'll get even more fans.

As an aside, how about that "bring back tailgate" protest at the Bryan Center walkway this weekend, promising "Cocaine, 2 girls at once, and 'Rearn Engrish'", among other benefits? Stay classy guys. (yes, I know they're joking, but it's in poor taste imo - someone needs to be re-educated in creative harassment).

[Duke of Nashville]

I was actually impressed with the turn out. 20,000 seems about a right number if you ask me. And it's not like it was half Duke fans and half Tulane fans. It was like 19,985 Duke fans and about 15 Tulane fans. If the cheer leaders would have gotten' a Blue and White cheer going I bet both sides of the stadium would have been rocking. Anyone that was at the Alabama game last year (or ECU in the late 90's) knows what I am talking about when I say this. (Or maybe any opposing team's fanbase at WW)

Anyway, what a beating we put on the wave. Keep up the good work and let's beat FIU!

[CameronBornAndBred]

Yeah I agree with you that rather than looking toward the fans to make the game day experience better, the administration needs to make the first move. In the past couple years they have finally started to show a willingness to do this. Upgraded restrooms/concessions, scoreboards, etc. but I think they can do more. I have never been to a college FB game except at Duke, so I'm not sure what exactly has been done elsewhere, but I think your suggestions about parking and the comfort of the stadium are valid.

It has always seemed to me that the administration has been waiting for the team to get better and for there to be more fan support before they make a major move to upgrade the facilities (particularly Wallace Wade) to a true BCS level. Ok I can see why they'd wait. You want to make sure the stadium will fill to a reasonable level, and success on the playing field increases the chance of getting donations to fund these upgrades. But I think the administration has to act, to PRETEND like we are a legitimate, amazing BCS team that WILL fill the stadium. The fact that we have an embarrassing stadium (sorry to the Wallace Wade apologists out there, but it is so underwhelming, even when full) feeds into the impression that students at Duke and other Durhamites largely accept of "Duke doesn't care about football."

I know this is incredibly unlikely, but if Duke was to tear down WW and build a brand new stadium (or keep WW for track and build a new stadium elsewhere, with plenty of parking :)), I think that would really create so much excitement for everyone. Even if we were to make a substantial improvement, like take out the track and add a bowl of seats around the field or something, that would really make a statement and maybe give us something to be proud of, to feel like we BELONG in the ACC. I'm sorry, new bathrooms were great and necessary, but they're not exciting and not nearly enough.

However, given that major upgrades to WW are probably not very imminent (and I understand that the funding just isn't there right now), I think there are some things that the administration can do to generate more interest. Free/reduced-price tickets for employees is a good idea, as suggested, maybe also for local youth/high school football teams (not sure if this is already done?). Painting WW is an interesting thought. Maybe making football a bigger part of orientation for freshmen to indoctrinate them a bit before they meet with the apathy of the upperclassmen. Get them all in WW and learn cheers or something. Maybe pep rallies in WW on Friday night for the entire school to get pumped for the game the next day; have like a speech from Cut and a game between intramural football teams or something else to give some entertainment and something to cheer for (not sure if that would work). More publicity around campus, huge banners across the Marketplace or Great Hall making sure everyone knows that there's a game that week. Make it a competition between frats or sororities or dormitories as to who has the best % turnout at the game. These are all just random (possibly bad) ideas, but I think maybe we need to just sort of get creative and pretend we're a big time school rather than waiting for it to actually happen on its own.

I know Cut has tried to do some things (the walk, talking with students in the marketplace), but he seems to be the only one who is actively trying to generate excitement. I think on some level the administration has a "that's not my job" attitude about it, and it very well might not be the administration's job at other schools where football is more entrenched, but at Duke I really believe the people who have the power to make some changes need to do so.
Nice post and all valid points. To an extent, the administration can only do so much; at some point it is going to be up to the fans to make game day an experience that draws more people back the following week. Devil's Alley is a great example. The school gave us an awesome spot to tailgate, but only 2 tents make it an all day affair. That's us (The True Blue 'Cue Crew) and our neighbors (Coach Cut's Cookers). We arrive at 7am every game and leave when the lots have all but emptied. Is it the administration's fault that the other tents' occupants only show up an hour before kickoff and empty out before halftime? Nope. The fans have been given the means to make the most of it, and they still make the very least. It will take the efforts of those like the Crazietalkers under our tent to lead by example, and to show that game day can be and should be an event..win or lose.
That's one of the reasons I had the idea for the cookbook that I'm working on. It's not just a tailgating cookbook, it's a DUKE tailgating cookbook. It will be populated with not only great recipes, but my paintings showing the tailgate experience as well as stories from both people in the parking lots about their memories of games past and football players' stories from the field. I want to do the most I can to encourage others to come make Saturdays at Wallace Wade something to look forward to. I'm only a small fish in a big pond, but if there are enough fish blowing bubbles people will start to notice.
So I disagree with the administration having the "it's not my job attitude". I think they have worked hard and well to make game day better. Can they improve? Sure. But at some points the fans that DO come can help to make our Saturday's a bit more than just a football game.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Regarding the atmosphere along Tailgate Alley this past Saturday, I thought it was rocking despite the terrible rains and rivers of runoff we all had to deal with. People do arrive at varying times, but generally are in place by the time the Devil Walk comes through. :cool:

[Scorp4me]

I know this is incredibly unlikely, but if Duke was to tear down WW and build a brand new stadium

Much of your post includes great ideas. Many of the ideas have already been implemented to varying degrees of success (which is probably why you're still suggesting them, some didn't work out I guess, lol)...but tear down Wallace Wade??? Look I'm not old guy who remembers the glory days and wants to keep it for nostalgia, but I love the stadium. There isn't a bad seat in the place. Heck, that's the quote I've heard from opposing fans as well. It's a bit smaller, but so is Cameron. And yes I've heard those who want to replace Cameron as well. But the fact is there is much that can be done to make Wallace Wade a better stadium. The first would be filling it before we ever consider adding more seats!

[alteran]

Yes, maybe we (or I) should not say that Coach Cut, the players and others associated with the football team "deserve" more fan support. This is obviously not a moral issue. I mean, we're not finding a cure for cancer or feeding the starving masses in Somolia. But I think it would be nice to see more fan support from both the Duke and Durham community for the team and coaches. I know the official attendance for the game was over 20,000 but, from the looks of the stadium at the beginning of the game, I'd be amazed if there were even 10,000 people in the stands. The view of the stands from the TV angles was just disheartening and I wasn't even playing !!! I also agree that others sports at Duke should have more fan support too. No argument there from me. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I hope there are more Duke fans in the stands for the ACC games this season.

Okay, to the folks complaining about how it looked on TV, let me once again tell you about the day those of us at the game experienced.

The downpour leading up to the game was absolutely insane. Barring a storm with a name, I do not recall a time where it rained so hard for so long. I'm talking about one of those rains where you run for 20 feet and are thoroughly soaked. I've seen bursts like that last five minutes or so, but this one lasted 30-45 minutes at that level. There were advisories for flash floods. I have no doubt that there were people that were coming to the game that got in accidents or fender benders-- we're talking wait-under-the-bridge weather, here.

If you weren't there, it's really hard to appreciate how intimidating that burst was. Now don't feel sorry for me, I was personally hoisting beers at the time, but I suspect a lot of people planning to go made the decision not to during this stretch.

Fortunately for those of us going to the game, the rain stopped maybe 15-30 minutes before the game, and although looking dicey at times, held off. If you brought a towel, you could wipe off the seats and sit. Student attendance started poor but got quite full as word got out that the day was nice, although humid as a bathhouse.

Please don't misread what I mean in the following, but I would like to note that the people complaining about attendance appear to have seen the game on TV (this isn't a hypocrisy callout, I know many are not local), and those defending seem to have attended the game. I take this to mean that the broadcast must have made the scene look dramatic, but those of us who experienced the reality of the day seem to think (some) of the poor attendance was explainable.

My one critique of attendance was the surprising number of folks leaving early. Yes, I know the game was not in doubt and Duke was playing burn-the-clock. But seriously folks, how many times are you going to see 40+ points on the left side of the board in Wallace Wade? :)

[DueBlevil]

To an extent, the administration can only do so much; at some point it is going to be up to the fans to make game day an experience that draws more people back the following week. Devil's Alley is a great example. The school gave us an awesome spot to tailgate, but only 2 tents make it an all day affair. That's us (The True Blue 'Cue Crew) and our neighbors (Coach Cut's Cookers). We arrive at 7am every game and leave when the lots have all but emptied. Is it the administration's fault that the other tents' occupants only show up an hour before kickoff and empty out before halftime? Nope. The fans have been given the means to make the most of it, and they still make the very least. It will take the efforts of those like the Crazietalkers under our tent to lead by example, and to show that game day can be and should be an event..win or lose.
I agree with you that the administration has done some good things, like Devil's Alley and also reforming tailgate, and at some point fans just have to decide to show up and make a party of it. At most schools, the administration would have done more than enough. But I wonder if they can do more (or empower student groups to do more perhaps)


That's one of the reasons I had the idea for the cookbook that I'm working on. It's not just a tailgating cookbook, it's a DUKE tailgating cookbook. It will be populated with not only great recipes, but my paintings showing the tailgate experience as well as stories from both people in the parking lots about their memories of games past and football players' stories from the field.
That sounds amazing


...but tear down Wallace Wade??? Look I'm not old guy who remembers the glory days and wants to keep it for nostalgia, but I love the stadium. There isn't a bad seat in the place. Heck, that's the quote I've heard from opposing fans as well.
Yeah I have heard those things about WW as well. I agree that it can be a great place to watch a game (if you like to watch a game with the stadium half empty). And maybe tearing down WW isn't justified. I will also concede that if we expand the stadium, there is a risk that we will go from a 1/2 empty stadium to a 2/3 empty stadium. But don't you think there's some intrinsic value in having a stadium that even approaches the standards of other schools in our conference? Maybe that intrinsic value isn't worth the tens of millions of dollars (or more) it will cost to completely update the stadium. But sometimes I have a hard time taking a program seriously if they play in a stadium like WW, regardless of their record, and I don't think I'm alone. And I think there would be a positive impact on recruiting and attendance too. Anyways I guess the point is moot because there's probably really no money to do anything right now, but I am simply arguing against the "we'll expand the stadium when every single game is selling out" mentality.

[Indoor66]

Yeah I have heard those things about WW as well. I agree that it can be a great place to watch a game (if you like to watch a game with the stadium half empty). And maybe tearing down WW isn't justified. I will also concede that if we expand the stadium, there is a risk that we will go from a 1/2 empty stadium to a 2/3 empty stadium. But don't you think there's some intrinsic value in having a stadium that even approaches the standards of other schools in our conference? Maybe that intrinsic value isn't worth the tens of millions of dollars (or more) it will cost to completely update the stadium. But sometimes I have a hard time taking a program seriously if they play in a stadium like WW, regardless of their record, and I don't think I'm alone. And I think there would be a positive impact on recruiting and attendance too. Anyways I guess the point is moot because there's probably really no money to do anything right now, but I am simply arguing against the "we'll expand the stadium when every single game is selling out" mentality.

I don't see what is wrong with WW stadium that the upgrades already planned don't solve. It is a great place to view a game. If we need more seats we have room to grow. The style of the stadium is classic - new is not always better. IMO, Duke will cannot, realistically, expect to draw more than 45 - 50,000 fans and WW can be easily "remodeled" to hold that many fans.

The talk of a new stadium reminds me of a restaurant that fills its table so it expends - only to need more help, have higher expenses and very few more customers – a formula for failure.

For me WW it is like Cameron, iconic and needing only a little TLC not a sledge hammer.

[Scorp4me]

But don't you think there's some intrinsic value in having a stadium that even approaches the standards of other schools in our conference?

The bathrooms were a joke, but they took care of though. And I'm just looking at it from a fan's perspective. But what is wrong with the stadium? I mean no it can't seat 80,000 people, but then again we can't fill 80,000 people. Short of it "not being new" I don't see anything wrong with it. Can you explain which standards it does not mean? I"d be interested to know what they are...if they are valid...and if they can be fixed.

[ForkFondler]

The bathrooms were a joke, but they took care of though. And I'm just looking at it from a fan's perspective. But what is wrong with the stadium? I mean no it can't seat 80,000 people, but then again we can't fill 80,000 people. Short of it "not being new" I don't see anything wrong with it. Can you explain which standards it does not mean? I"d be interested to know what they are...if they are valid...and if they can be fixed.

The track puts 30-40' between the fans and the field, which makes WW the anti-Cameron.

[killerleft]

The track puts 30-40' between the fans and the field, which makes WW the anti-Cameron.

That's one of the planned upgrades, to lower the field and put seats inside the present stadium. Next?

[DueBlevil]

The bathrooms were a joke, but they took care of though. And I'm just looking at it from a fan's perspective. But what is wrong with the stadium? I mean no it can't seat 80,000 people, but then again we can't fill 80,000 people. Short of it "not being new" I don't see anything wrong with it. Can you explain which standards it does not mean? I"d be interested to know what they are...if they are valid...and if they can be fixed.

Well I agree with what the Bostock report suggested a few years ago. I briefly mentioned the idea of a brand new stadium before because I do believe that would create a lot of excitement, but I agree with the people who say WW can be adequately remedied.

Specifically, I think a couple of the major things holding WW back are: (not sure if you'll deem these "valid")


The track, as well as the level of seats: is it just me or are the fans much farther removed from the field than at other stadiums? I think we need to take a cue from Cameron and get seats as close to the action as possible
Lack of luxury boxes/entertaining space: aside from generating revenue, these also give the stadium the feeling of being a destination. I have been to the stadium at Wake Forest, not for a game, but for a function in the Bridger Field House, and it was really nice. Not to mention WW's "president's box" is kind of an embarrassment.
More of a "presence": this is more vague, but most stadiums have more of a grand entrance or impressive stature. You might think this is dumb, but I think there's more psychology at work than you realize. College football isn't only about the quality of a football game, it's about tradition, pageantry, school pride, stuff like that. I might be crazy but I feel like the football team at Duke University should have something a little more worthy to call home.

I know some of you won't agree with changing WW, as this board has a lot of "traditionalists" (I'm not saying that's bad). But I'm talking about ways to make the stadium attractive to the more casual fans. Having a great atmosphere is important. I agree that newer and bigger isn't always better. Cameron is one example, Fenway park is another. But if those venues were only 1/2-2/3 full all the time, would they still be considered great? There are examples of teams building new parks and seeing attendance go up substantially (Jacob's Field (now Progressive Field) in Cleveland, Camden Yards in Baltimore). There are more things that can entice fans to spend an afternoon out besides a good view and decent bathrooms. Let's face it, being small and old is ONE of the things that makes Cameron great, but it's not the ONLY thing.

Anyways, sorry to make a big deal of this. I don't post on this board very much, so now y'all probably think I'm a crazy person, but I promise this isn't an issue that keeps me up at night.

[Wander]

More of a "presence": this is more vague, but most stadiums have more of a grand entrance or impressive stature. You might think this is dumb, but I think there's more psychology at work than you realize. College football isn't only about the quality of a football game, it's about tradition, pageantry, school pride, stuff like that. I might be crazy but I feel like the football team at Duke University should have something a little more worthy to call home.


I actually think the fact that WW is built into the ground (from most directions) rather than above it gives it a pretty cool presence. It makes the place seem a bit more "trapping" to me. The two problems are that we're never full enough for this to really be noticeable, and the open end behind one of the field goal posts completely cancels out any of this closed-in feeling. I'd like to see us close the horseshoe, if not with extra seats then at least with some sort of large wall or building that blocks out the open view.

[ForkFondler]

That's one of the planned upgrades, to lower the field and put seats inside the present stadium. Next?

Right, nothing that can't be fixed. I thought the question was what is wrong with WW now. It's something that needs to be addressed even if attendance is not projected to increase dramatically.

[johnb]

Fill the stadium?

a) Increase the undergraduate enrollment to 25,000.
b) Make Duke the lone important public university in NC.
c) Free/cheap tickets to everyone in the region.
d) Win games.

The Tulane stomping does give some hope that d is possible.

[CDu]

Fill the stadium?

a) Increase the undergraduate enrollment to 25,000.
b) Make Duke the lone important public university in NC.
c) Free/cheap tickets to everyone in the region.
d) Win games.

The Tulane stomping does give some hope that d is possible.

Without (d) happening, I'm not sure that (c) would be sufficient to fill the stadium. Hopefully (d) is in the process of happening though.

[TruBlu]

IIRC, in the late 70's or early 80's, SI had an article which listed the top ten "ugly" college stadiums for watching good football. The article also listed the top ten "pretty" stadiums to watch bad football. Wallace Wade made the last list.

I actually like WW. Sure, there are improvements that have been made and could be made. The history of WW (good and bad) is something that should be cherished. It has been my pleasure to have witnessed both good and bad. Hopefully more good is in the future.

[towerview road]

Oh no - please don't suggest tearing down WW!

It may be old - but it is the only venue outside of the Rose Bowl (the site) where the Rose Bowl (the game) has ever been played in its history, dating back to 1923 (technically the first 7 years of the Rose Bowl, from 1916-1923 were played at Tournament Park at Caltech, but it wasn't actually the "Rose Bowl" (game) then without the "Rose Bowl" (stadium) so I'm not counting them).

I assume you all know about how the 1942 Rose Bowl was played at WW, right?

Big history. I am not saying improvements aren't sorely needed, just that suggestions of a complete tear-down are really terrible.

[sagegrouse]

IIRC, in the late 70's or early 80's, SI had an article which listed the top ten "ugly" college stadiums for watching good football. The article also listed the top ten "pretty" stadiums to watch bad football. Wallace Wade made the last list.

I actually like WW. Sure, there are improvements that have been made and could be made. The history of WW (good and bad) is something that should be cherished. It has been my pleasure to have witnessed both good and bad. Hopefully more good is in the future.

IIRC -

Duke - "Best place in the country to watch bad football"

Nebraska - "Worst place in the country to watch good football"

sagegrouse

[CDu]

IIRC, in the late 70's or early 80's, SI had an article which listed the top ten "ugly" college stadiums for watching good football. The article also listed the top ten "pretty" stadiums to watch bad football. Wallace Wade made the last list.

I actually like WW. Sure, there are improvements that have been made and could be made. The history of WW (good and bad) is something that should be cherished. It has been my pleasure to have witnessed both good and bad. Hopefully more good is in the future.

Well, a lot (most?) of stadiums have either been replaced or completely renovated in the last 30 years, so I'm not sure the reference holds anymore.

That said, I'm not sure there's much need to completely replace Wallace Wade stadium. Renovations needed? Sure.

[Dev11]

More of a "presence": this is more vague, but most stadiums have more of a grand entrance or impressive stature. You might think this is dumb, but I think there's more psychology at work than you realize. College football isn't only about the quality of a football game, it's about tradition, pageantry, school pride, stuff like that. I might be crazy but I feel like the football team at Duke University should have something a little more worthy to call home.

Ever been to Michigan Stadium? I know they recently added the big luxury boxes, but before that, it looked like a hole in the ground just like WW with a big scoreboard. Doesn't seem to have hurt them. Good teams get good attendance, thats that.

Regarding the attendance as viewed on tv, note that the tv angle shows the opposing team's section the most. There weren't all that many New Orleans folks who made the trip all the way to Durham. The shady side was much more full. Also, the rain factor was pretty substantial.

[DueBlevil]

Ever been to Michigan Stadium? I know they recently added the big luxury boxes, but before that, it looked like a hole in the ground just like WW with a big scoreboard. Doesn't seem to have hurt them. Good teams get good attendance, thats that.

Regarding the attendance as viewed on tv, note that the tv angle shows the opposing team's section the most. There weren't all that many New Orleans folks who made the trip all the way to Durham. The shady side was much more full. Also, the rain factor was pretty substantial.

Yeah you're missing my point about the stadiums. In fact everyone is. My point is that I'M RIGHT! Kidding of course. But seriously, comparing us to Michigan and saying that they can fill up their stadium so we shouldn't upgrade ours doesn't makes sense to me.

The TV angle on ESPN3 didn't show the opposing team's section. The angle that showed the stands showed the closed end of the horseshoe, in which there were virtually no spectators (which is not unusual). The visitors are usually toward the open end of the stadium, at least at every game I've been to, maybe that's changed.

[Bob Green]

My Wallace Wade Stadium improvement suggestion is to remove the aluminum benches (at least they're not wood these days) and replace them with real seats. Of course real seats take up more room, which means stadium capacity would be reduced. However, installing new seats in conjunction with removing the track, lowering the field and adding seats closer to the field should allow the new capacity to be the same as current capacity, which seems adequate seeing as there are lots of empty benches on a typical Saturday afternoon.

The suggestion to tear down Wallace Wade Stadium is heresy.

[throatybeard]

Nice post and all valid points. To an extent, the administration can only do so much; at some point it is going to be up to the fans to make game day an experience that draws more people back the following week. Devil's Alley is a great example. The school gave us an awesome spot to tailgate, but only 2 tents make it an all day affair. That's us (The True Blue 'Cue Crew) and our neighbors (Coach Cut's Cookers). We arrive at 7am every game and leave when the lots have all but emptied. Is it the administration's fault that the other tents' occupants only show up an hour before kickoff and empty out before halftime? Nope. The fans have been given the means to make the most of it, and they still make the very least. It will take the efforts of those like the Crazietalkers under our tent to lead by example, and to show that game day can be and should be an event..win or lose.
That's one of the reasons I had the idea for the cookbook that I'm working on. It's not just a tailgating cookbook, it's a DUKE tailgating cookbook. It will be populated with not only great recipes, but my paintings showing the tailgate experience as well as stories from both people in the parking lots about their memories of games past and football players' stories from the field. I want to do the most I can to encourage others to come make Saturdays at Wallace Wade something to look forward to. I'm only a small fish in a big pond, but if there are enough fish blowing bubbles people will start to notice.
So I disagree with the administration having the "it's not my job attitude". I think they have worked hard and well to make game day better. Can they improve? Sure. But at some points the fans that DO come can help to make our Saturday's a bit more than just a football game.

Exactly. It's isn't Dick Brodhead or Cathy Davidson's job to teach football culture to Duke people. I'm glad this band of CT diehards is into it, but the larger problem is cultural. The proximate portion of the fanbase, by and large, doesn't know how to act for a football game. We've got a proximate fanbase that basically thinks skating in 12 minutes before Duke-UNCG MBB game and leaving at the 8:00 timeout in the 2H is how sports go.

I was amazed when I went from Duke to Mississippi State back in 2004. Mississippi State is generally considered the poor sister of the state schools in the SEC, and has a long history of .500 football on good days. And the atmosphere for each and every home football game is like Carolina home MBB campout times ten. And MSU was going 3-8 each year I was there! And it's not big for a state school, it was under 20K total grad/undergrad then. I've also been to several games at Wake Forest, which is smaller than Duke. Their atmosphere kills us.

I live halfway across the country, so I can't do anything about this. And I've mostly ceased to care. Cutcliffe could go 7-5 every year and Duke's FB atmosphere would still be pretty embarrassing even by ACC standards. A couple games in the last 45 years (State 89, UVA 94) don't change this. This is no fault of the CB&Bs. They're carrying the flag up the hill. But the cultural problem is almost insurmountable.

[J.Blink]

My Wallace Wade Stadium improvement suggestion is to remove the aluminum benches (at least they're not wood these days) and replace them with real seats. Of course real seats take up more room, which means stadium capacity would be reduced. However, installing new seats in conjunction with removing the track, lowering the field and adding seats closer to the field should allow the new capacity to be the same as current capacity, which seems adequate seeing as there are lots of empty benches on a typical Saturday afternoon.

The suggestion to tear down Wallace Wade Stadium is heresy.

That's one thing I've REALLY hated about Kenan, the few times I've been there. I'm not sure if the entire stadium is like this, but the seats are almost impossible for me to sit in. I'm not that tall--6'3--but thanks to the "upgraded" seat backs, my legs literally do not fit and I've had to sit almost sideways.

I've been to maybe half the football stadiums in the ACC (though admittedly mostly the proximate ones, not the big hitters) and I guess I just really don't see what the problem with WW is. I actually really like WW. No ugly high-rise stands and garish signs, banners, and advertisements everywhere. Good legroom. Nicely wooded area on the visitors side. Nice track too.

Besides, wouldn't the time for sinking the field already be passed, now that we have a full practice field and the Pascal Fieldhouse? Or would there have to be some kind of tunnel down to the newly lowered field from the visitor side?

[OldPhiKap]

I live halfway across the country, so I can't do anything about this.

This is part of the struggle we have. State schools have a huge local and regional alumni and fan base. Schools like Wake draw, by and large, from folks within a few hundred miles. We are a small national school with students and alum from all over. Many students did not root for Duke as kids because it wasn't even on their radar (and we aren't on TV a lot); most alums are not in the Triangle (my kids love Duke football when we can get there, but it is a five hour one-way trip so it ain't often). Our school has a greater need for a good product to draw, because we don't have a huge local fall-back.

The culture is not hopeless -- but it is a greater struggle than a lot of places. A competitive team that is consistently bowl-eligible can change that.

[throatybeard]

But see, that's just it. We're not the only private school with a dispersed alumni base. Not everyone at WFU is from eight counties in Western NC. Look at Notre Dame. Their national alumni base is seen as an asset, not a liability. Stanford can put butts in seats. Notre Dame can put butts in seats even though out-of-work factory folks in Elkhart aren't showing up to Notre Dame games. Part of that has to do with their winning history, but a lot more of it (since they have a tendency to go 6-6 lately) has to do with a culture of giving a crap about the cornerstone sport and showing up. I went to our game there in 2007. I was dazzled by the atmosphere. It was in not particularly cold temperatures (about 45F) in which people at Duke would act like it's 30 below. We had a homecoming game against GT in Durham tenish years ago. The complaint on the board was how cold it was. That was farcical--it was like 62F. The tailgating was amazing. ND's stadium, on a FB scale, actually reminds me of Cameron. It's 80K capacity but everything is so close that it feels intimate. They were in the midst of a 3-9 season. And people were still showing up from NY and Chicago and the west coast. To watch them paste a Ted Roof team.

Wake Forest is a smaller school than Duke. Notre Dame enrollment: 11733. Duke: 14248.

This is another reason I encourage Duke to get out of the big bucks sports machine about five days after Mike Krzyzewski dies peacefully in his sleep in 2032. If we're doing to act like a I-AA or D2 school in football, okay, but then lets get out of IA. Heck, you go to a lot of MBB games in Cameron and they say its 9314 but really there are a lot of empty seats. Then we hear ululating on the board about how the game was on a Tuesday. OK, fine. So if we don't have what it takes to show up for DI revenue sports, great. Let's admit the reality of our situation and go back to being a University that isn't embroiled in the dirty business of revenue DI sports.

[OldPhiKap]

But see, that's just it. We're not the only private school with a dispersed alumni base. Not everyone at WFU is from eight counties in Western NC. Look at Notre Dame. Their national alumni base is seen as an asset, not a liability. Stanford can put butts in seats. Notre Dame can put butts in seats even though out-of-work factory folks in Elkhart aren't showing up to Notre Dame games. Part of that has to do with their winning history, but a lot more of it (since they have a tendency to go 6-6 lately) has to do with a culture of giving a crap about the cornerstone sport and showing up. I went to our game there in 2007. I was dazzled by the atmosphere. It was in not particularly cold temperatures (about 45F) in which people at Duke would act like it's 30 below. We had a homecoming game against GT in Durham tenish years ago. The complaint on the board was how cold it was. That was farcical--it was like 62F. The tailgating was amazing. ND's stadium, on a FB scale, actually reminds me of Cameron. It's 80K capacity but everything is so close that it feels intimate. They were in the midst of a 3-9 season. And people were still showing up from NY and Chicago and the west coast. To watch them paste a Ted Roof team.

Wake Forest is a smaller school than Duke. Notre Dame enrollment: 11733. Duke: 14248.

As always, you raise a number of interesting points. Let me focus on the football comparisons, and I will say at the start this is top of the head stuff. The three comparisons you make:

Notre Dame -- IS football. Or, at least was. But it is an iconoclastic football team. They negotiated their own deal with NBC. Whole different ballgame than everyone other than Texas.

Stanford -- Bay area population is not comparable to the Triangle. And I would guess has a big Bay Area following. it's not like Duke, where most folks living in Durham pull for State or UNC.

Wake -- alum not nearly as far-flung as Duke. While not all from a five-county area, Wake is a regional school. (Not a slam, just a different draw). And Wake is a few years ahead of us in terms of turning the pigskin around.


Keep the faith, Throaty. We want you on our wall, we need you on our wall.

[Greg_Newton]

It's pretty simple: people aren't going to invest their money, time, emotional energy and identity into Duke football until it's seen as a legitimate institution.

If you look around the Wade these days, you'll see a very different type of crowd than you see at Alabama, Notre Dame, UNC, UVA, even Wake. In my careful analysis, you've got:

A. The previous generations of Duke footballers and their crew, who are generally awesome.

B. The loyal, older Duke fans who made it through the 0-11 years by not getting too invested and leaving at halftime if it was 35-7, etc., who are generally good-natured, bring their kids, etc., but aren't going to tailgate all day or get too emotionally involved.

C. The fanatic, older Duke fans who stuck it out through every minute of the 0-11 years despite threatening to cancel their season tickets after every game. These folks tend to be a bit more bitter and critical... and probably rightfully so, given the emotional beatings they've subjected themselves to!

D.The small handful of Blue Devil Alley-types, who, despite being true-and-blue diehards, have somehow yet to become completely disillusioned and jaded, and still go all-out on game day. ;)

E. A tiny scattering of students and younger alumni/local fans.


...and the biggest variable in this equation is (E). The other four categories of fans - God bless 'em! - are generally going to stick it out through thick and thin without much variance in numbers (albeit with varying attitudes). The "E's" showed out en masse for Richmond... and haven't come back. I said it at the time, and I still believe it - that game set us back a few years in terms of perception and support.

You can see it from looking at the distribution in the stands; the shady side of the "U" where all of the long-time, reserved-seat holders sit is generally pretty full. However, the general admission section has become a ghost town. I mean, there was just no one at the bottom of the horseshoe at this game.

-----------

Anyway, start winning, and we'll get those young-ish, casual fans interested again. If we don't flop (like we did against Richmond), they'll hop on the bandwagon, get drunk in the parking lot all day, cheer loudly and stand up during games, and do all that fun, footbally stuff. But after the way we opened this pivotal year, I don't think we can ask them to keep coming on faith until the program proves it has a legitimate product to invest in.

[formerdukeathlete]

Well I agree with what the Bostock report suggested a few years ago. I briefly mentioned the idea of a brand new stadium before because I do believe that would create a lot of excitement, but I agree with the people who say WW can be adequately remedied.

Specifically, I think a couple of the major things holding WW back are: (not sure if you'll deem these "valid")


The track, as well as the level of seats: is it just me or are the fans much farther removed from the field than at other stadiums? I think we need to take a cue from Cameron and get seats as close to the action as possible
Lack of luxury boxes/entertaining space: aside from generating revenue, these also give the stadium the feeling of being a destination. I have been to the stadium at Wake Forest, not for a game, but for a function in the Bridger Field House, and it was really nice. Not to mention WW's "president's box" is kind of an embarrassment.
More of a "presence": this is more vague, but most stadiums have more of a grand entrance or impressive stature. You might think this is dumb, but I think there's more psychology at work than you realize. College football isn't only about the quality of a football game, it's about tradition, pageantry, school pride, stuff like that. I might be crazy but I feel like the football team at Duke University should have something a little more worthy to call home.

I know some of you won't agree with changing WW, as this board has a lot of "traditionalists" (I'm not saying that's bad). But I'm talking about ways to make the stadium attractive to the more casual fans. Having a great atmosphere is important. I agree that newer and bigger isn't always better. Cameron is one example, Fenway park is another. But if those venues were only 1/2-2/3 full all the time, would they still be considered great? There are examples of teams building new parks and seeing attendance go up substantially (Jacob's Field (now Progressive Field) in Cleveland, Camden Yards in Baltimore). There are more things that can entice fans to spend an afternoon out besides a good view and decent bathrooms. Let's face it, being small and old is ONE of the things that makes Cameron great, but it's not the ONLY thing.

Anyways, sorry to make a big deal of this. I don't post on this board very much, so now y'all probably think I'm a crazy person, but I promise this isn't an issue that keeps me up at night.

The problem with Wade is that it is a gentle rake stadium with a track separating the field from the stands. This means it is not loud. We can move stands toward the field, by lowering the field. It will, nonetheless, continue to be a gentle rake stadium. Ideally, the stadium should be reformed, bulldozing existing concrete. Still call it Wallace Wade.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

My Wallace Wade Stadium improvement suggestion is to remove the aluminum benches (at least they're not wood these days) and replace them with real seats. Of course real seats take up more room, which means stadium capacity would be reduced. However, installing new seats in conjunction with removing the track, lowering the field and adding seats closer to the field should allow the new capacity to be the same as current capacity, which seems adequate seeing as there are lots of empty benches on a typical Saturday afternoon.

The suggestion to tear down Wallace Wade Stadium is heresy.
If I may chime in about adding seat backs in Wallace Wade, at 5' 4" tall, I might be considered short compared to many football fans. I agree with J. Blink. I detest the seat backs as they are designed in Kenan.They provide for some of the poorest conditions for watching football to be found on this earth. The design allows for packing in so many people that when anyone in a row needs to exit for any reason, the whole row must stand and allow that person to walk over the seats themselves to get out.

With all the engineering talent seemingly available on campus, surely we don't need to consider such poor designs.

It's rather interesting that a thread about Duke's most recent win has veered into stadium design rather than celebrating the win.

[CDu]

Yeah you're missing my point about the stadiums. In fact everyone is. My point is that I'M RIGHT! Kidding of course. But seriously, comparing us to Michigan and saying that they can fill up their stadium so we shouldn't upgrade ours doesn't makes sense to me.

The TV angle on ESPN3 didn't show the opposing team's section. The angle that showed the stands showed the closed end of the horseshoe, in which there were virtually no spectators (which is not unusual). The visitors are usually toward the open end of the stadium, at least at every game I've been to, maybe that's changed.

The closed end of the horseshoe is always the least populated section of the crowd. The sections between the 20s are where everyone sits. Those sections were much much more full than the end zone sections.

[CDu]

But see, that's just it. We're not the only private school with a dispersed alumni base. Not everyone at WFU is from eight counties in Western NC. Look at Notre Dame. Their national alumni base is seen as an asset, not a liability. Stanford can put butts in seats. Notre Dame can put butts in seats even though out-of-work factory folks in Elkhart aren't showing up to Notre Dame games. Part of that has to do with their winning history, but a lot more of it (since they have a tendency to go 6-6 lately) has to do with a culture of giving a crap about the cornerstone sport and showing up. I went to our game there in 2007. I was dazzled by the atmosphere. It was in not particularly cold temperatures (about 45F) in which people at Duke would act like it's 30 below. We had a homecoming game against GT in Durham tenish years ago. The complaint on the board was how cold it was. That was farcical--it was like 62F. The tailgating was amazing. ND's stadium, on a FB scale, actually reminds me of Cameron. It's 80K capacity but everything is so close that it feels intimate. They were in the midst of a 3-9 season. And people were still showing up from NY and Chicago and the west coast. To watch them paste a Ted Roof team.

Wake Forest is a smaller school than Duke. Notre Dame enrollment: 11733. Duke: 14248.

This is another reason I encourage Duke to get out of the big bucks sports machine about five days after Mike Krzyzewski dies peacefully in his sleep in 2032. If we're doing to act like a I-AA or D2 school in football, okay, but then lets get out of IA. Heck, you go to a lot of MBB games in Cameron and they say its 9314 but really there are a lot of empty seats. Then we hear ululating on the board about how the game was on a Tuesday. OK, fine. So if we don't have what it takes to show up for DI revenue sports, great. Let's admit the reality of our situation and go back to being a University that isn't embroiled in the dirty business of revenue DI sports.

Notre Dame also has one of the winningest programs in division-1 history, and has regularly been making bowl games (even the occasional BCS appearance). They built their atmosphere based on decades and decades of success and national prominence.

You mention Wake Forest as well. Well, Wake Forest had TERRIBLE football attendance in the late-90s/early-00s, just like Duke. When they were terrible, fans didn't show up. Maybe their attendance has improved since they started winning some (I can't confirm this), but it certainly wasn't the case when they stunk like we did. I'd also argue that their alumni fanbase is much more local than ours.

And Stanford has the advantage of being in a larger metropolitan area (about 10 times the population of the Triangle) with one less school to rival for local fanship. And they, too, have enjoyed more football success than Duke in the last 50 years.

[killerleft]

If I may chime in about adding seat backs in Wallace Wade, at 5' 4" tall, I might be considered short compared to many football fans. I agree with J. Blink. I detest the seat backs as they are designed in Kenan.They provide for some of the poorest conditions for watching football to be found on this earth. The design allows for packing in so many people that when anyone in a row needs to exit for any reason, the whole row must stand and allow that person to walk over the seats themselves to get out.

With all the engineering talent seemingly available on campus, surely we don't need to consider such poor designs.

It's rather interesting that a thread about Duke's most recent win has veered into stadium design rather than celebrating the win.

Seconded! Any advantage that a seat back provides is double-cancelled out by the "shoe-horn effect".

[Scorp4me]

Well I agree with what the Bostock report suggested a few years ago. I briefly mentioned the idea of a brand new stadium before because I do believe that would create a lot of excitement, but I agree with the people who say WW can be adequately remedied.

Specifically, I think a couple of the major things holding WW back are: (not sure if you'll deem these "valid")


The track, as well as the level of seats: is it just me or are the fans much farther removed from the field than at other stadiums? I think we need to take a cue from Cameron and get seats as close to the action as possible
Lack of luxury boxes/entertaining space: aside from generating revenue, these also give the stadium the feeling of being a destination. I have been to the stadium at Wake Forest, not for a game, but for a function in the Bridger Field House, and it was really nice. Not to mention WW's "president's box" is kind of an embarrassment.
More of a "presence": this is more vague, but most stadiums have more of a grand entrance or impressive stature. You might think this is dumb, but I think there's more psychology at work than you realize. College football isn't only about the quality of a football game, it's about tradition, pageantry, school pride, stuff like that. I might be crazy but I feel like the football team at Duke University should have something a little more worthy to call home.

I know some of you won't agree with changing WW, as this board has a lot of "traditionalists" (I'm not saying that's bad). But I'm talking about ways to make the stadium attractive to the more casual fans. Having a great atmosphere is important. I agree that newer and bigger isn't always better. Cameron is one example, Fenway park is another. But if those venues were only 1/2-2/3 full all the time, would they still be considered great? There are examples of teams building new parks and seeing attendance go up substantially (Jacob's Field (now Progressive Field) in Cleveland, Camden Yards in Baltimore). There are more things that can entice fans to spend an afternoon out besides a good view and decent bathrooms. Let's face it, being small and old is ONE of the things that makes Cameron great, but it's not the ONLY thing.

Anyways, sorry to make a big deal of this. I don't post on this board very much, so now y'all probably think I'm a crazy person, but I promise this isn't an issue that keeps me up at night.

Thanks for the specifics, it helps me to reply to them easier. And I should say I think of myself as a casual fan who is very dedicated, lol. I started attending football gamess during the Franks years, I stayed during the Roof years, and I'm enjoying watching them under the Cutcliffe years. I enjoy watching a good game and love tailgating with the family, although I often comment from my own first thoughts rather than what is perceived true football knowledge. By that I mean if buying Bojangles is less traditional than cooking out but I enjoy it more...I don't care. I'm not saying I do, just pointing out this is just my opinion. I want to respond...not because I think my opinion adds anything but because I was the one that asked. And I hope my use of the term "valid" wasn't taken wrong =)

I'm not sure I enjoy the track, but I certainly never noticed it. I don't think there is a bad seat in the stadium. And the much maligned top of the horseshoe is where we prefer to sit. Just to right at an angle where you can get a good view of everything. Would it be better if there was no track, maybe so, but the point is I never noticed it. I've seen countless tracks around fields in high school so I guess that clouds my thinking. You might say that is the problem it's not collegiate enough...but I don't know there is anything to compare to Friday night football so I don't think that. I wouldn't miss the track and if they could do it and make it look a part of the stadium...not like something added on then that'd be fine with me. But I'd like to fill what we have before we go adding new seats.

I'd be alright with doing away with any luxury boxes. I've already stated that there isn't a bad seat in the stadium. When I go I feel as though everyone is on the same page. I agree what is there now is kinda sad, so do away with them. Heck it'd add a few more seats to the stadium I'm sure, but again let's fill what we have first. I know it won't happen, but then again much of this won't, lol.

I won't disagree with the "presence" as you put it, but I think there is alot that goes into that. The bathrooms are...well look I know they are just bathrooms and we don't need fancy bathrooms to have a good football stadium. Bathrooms should be something you don't even notice, but when they are bad you notice them. The new ones are a great upgrade. There are also alot more vendors and things to do. It's a huge upgrade over the past few years. Wouldn't mind if they were a bit cheaper. For that matter parking. I remember my first games was against ECU I believe and it was packed, we had to park a long ways away and walk...rode in someone truck part of the way, but it was exciting. I thought wow, are all games going to be like this. They weren't lol, but parking is much better. But still $10??? $10 to park? I know it's just $5, but that price should be cut in half...it's way overpriced! I think in the end "presence" will come from wins on the field and buts in the seats.

From my perspective Wallace Wade is a great stadium, nothing is crumbling. The seats allow you space. I like the open horse shoe design. Great video board. I think we are lucky to have a stadium with such history and that is still in as good a shape as it is. But again it's just my perspective, an off the street perspective. I'm not comparing it to other stadiums or other programs. Maybe it loses something in the comparison, but for the casual fan I don't think that's necessary.

Doesn't mean I'm against upgrades, just have my own opinion on what some of those should be. Thanks for the reply DueBlevil

[Wander]

You mention Wake Forest as well. Well, Wake Forest had TERRIBLE football attendance in the late-90s/early-00s, just like Duke. When they were terrible, fans didn't show up. Maybe their attendance has improved since they started winning some (I can't confirm this), but it certainly wasn't the case when they stunk like we did. I'd also argue that their alumni fanbase is much more local than ours.


Wake isn't much better than Duke in terms of football culture - if it is at all. Average attendance around 31,000, with Duke's around 26,000 (for reference, the top ACC teams are in the 50's and 60's). Those numbers are from last year.

Vanderbilt is around 33,000 (all the other SEC teams are 50,000 or higher) and Northwestern is around 24,000. Stanford was at 41,000 - with a BCS bowl team and one of the best players in the country.

Wake, Vandy, Northwestern, and Stanford are the schools most similar to Duke in the BCS conferences. So, while Duke's attendance is bad, it's not an order of magnitude worse than similar schools - in fact, it's about what you'd expect.

All these abstract arguments about there being something fundamentally wrong with Duke fans are bogus - put some decent-to-good seasons under our belt and we'll be in exactly the same boat as Wake or Vandy or Northwestern (and maybe better than any or all of these).

[CDu]

Wake isn't much better than Duke in terms of football culture - if it is at all. Average attendance around 31,000, with Duke's around 26,000 (for reference, the top ACC teams are in the 50's and 60's). Those numbers are from last year.

Vanderbilt is around 33,000 (all the other SEC teams are 50,000 or higher) and Northwestern is around 24,000. Stanford was at 41,000 - with a BCS bowl team and one of the best players in the country.

Wake, Vandy, Northwestern, and Stanford are the schools most similar to Duke in the BCS conferences. So, while Duke's attendance is bad, it's not an order of magnitude worse than similar schools - in fact, it's about what you'd expect.

All these abstract arguments about there being something fundamentally wrong with Duke fans are bogus - put some decent-to-good seasons under our belt and we'll be in exactly the same boat as Wake or Vandy or Northwestern (and maybe better than any or all of these).

Thanks for the numbers. I would have been surprised if Wake suddenly had a large fanbase, even with the increase in wins recently. Your statements sum it up perfectly. If Stanford (with a MUCH larger market area and a much better product) barely tops 40,000 in attendance, there's no reason to think we should be packing out Wallace Wade right now. The notes about Northwestern, Vanderbilt (which has about double the larger market area), and Wake Forest having similar attendance issues rings consistent with what I'd have thought.

[davekay1971]

Thanks for the numbers. I would have been surprised if Wake suddenly had a large fanbase, even with the increase in wins recently. Your statements sum it up perfectly. If Stanford (with a MUCH larger market area and a much better product) barely tops 40,000 in attendance, there's no reason to think we should be packing out Wallace Wade right now. The notes about Northwestern, Vanderbilt (which has about double the larger market area), and Wake Forest having similar attendance issues rings consistent with what I'd have thought.

Wake actually has a big advantage over Duke in that it's the only show in town. Duke is competing for football fans in basically the same area as State (large, rabid football fanbase) and UNC (VERY large, but fairweather...in terms of football attendance...fanbase). Winston-Salem, like the rest of NC, probably has more UNC fans than anything else, but it still supports Wake pretty avidly. I'm not sure you can really compare the challenge Duke faces in building a football fanbase and culture to Wake's challenges. They're both small private schools without a strong football tradition, but beyond those similarities, there's a world of difference in the situations of the two schools.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I detest the seat backs as they are designed in Kenan.They provide for some of the poorest conditions for watching football to be found on this earth. The design allows for packing in so many people that when anyone in a row needs to exit for any reason, the whole row must stand and allow that person to walk over the seats themselves to get out.

They are especially evil for tall people such as myself. I love the bleachers in Wallace Wade, I love having the room. If you want a seat back, you can rent a chair from the stadium or bring your own.

[CDu]

Wake actually has a big advantage over Duke in that it's the only show in town. Duke is competing for football fans in basically the same area as State (large, rabid football fanbase) and UNC (VERY large, but fairweather...in terms of football attendance...fanbase). Winston-Salem, like the rest of NC, probably has more UNC fans than anything else, but it still supports Wake pretty avidly. I'm not sure you can really compare the challenge Duke faces in building a football fanbase and culture to Wake's challenges. They're both small private schools without a strong football tradition, but beyond those similarities, there's a world of difference in the situations of the two schools.

Sorry - I meant attendance not fanbase. From the statistics, it sounds like Wake is not wildly distancing themselves from Duke. In either case, I agree that using Wake as an example for why Duke should have higher attendance is not a valid argument (either because they don't actually have much more attendance, or because they've had more more recent success and have less competition for local fanship).

[throatybeard]

I don't put much stock in the reported attendance figures for Duke FB. I've been to way too many games where the 34K seat stadium was about a third full and then it says 26K in the boxscore. It's more than can be explained by gate attendance versus tickets sold, too.

To what extent the other schools are playing the same fuzzy math, I don't know.

[CDu]

I don't put much stock in the reported attendance figures for Duke FB. I've been to way too many games where the 34K seat stadium was about a third full and then it says 26K in the boxscore. It's more than can be explained by gate attendance versus tickets sold, too.

To what extent the other schools are playing the same fuzzy math, I don't know.

I'm guessing that pretty much all schools that don't have packed houses use some questionable math to generate their estimates. The other thing to consider is that those numbers are probably based on ticket sales and not actual attendance (since there aren't turnstyles). So I'm guessing that the numbers are overestimates across the board. Unless you're a place that plays to regular sellouts, the attendance numbers are almost always going to be inflated.

[throatybeard]

I'm guessing that pretty much all schools that don't have packed houses use some questionable math to generate their estimates. The other thing to consider is that those numbers are probably based on ticket sales and not actual attendance (since there aren't turnstyles). So I'm guessing that the numbers are overestimates across the board. Unless you're a place that plays to regular sellouts, the attendance numbers are almost always going to be inflated.

Even considering that, ours seem pretty ridiculous, though.

I understand when this happens in Cameron. I've been to games there with perhaps 6500 people. But in Cameron, all the ticketed seats are purchased and they define the student section as full irrespective of whether it actually is or not.

But with football, I find it hard to believe there are 11K bodies at a game and 15K no-shows on sold tickets.

Also, if it's based on sold tickets, what effect did the Alabama game have last year? Supposedly all these Bama fans bought season tickets and then returned all the games except Duke-Bama? Did that manifest in the ATT numbers?

Anyway, if you're trying to recruit, and there are 11K bodies in a third-full stadium, it looks bad to the kids you're recruiting. I don't think they'll much be persuaded otherwise by pointing them to an attendance number in a box score.

[ForkFondler]

I wonder if they count the student section as full, with the rationale being that since they've given the seats away, they are paid for.

[uh_no]

I wonder if they count the student section as full, with the rationale being that since they've given the seats away, they are paid for.

technically some of the student activity fee "pays" for those seats

[CDu]

Anyway, if you're trying to recruit, and there are 11K bodies in a third-full stadium, it looks bad to the kids you're recruiting. I don't think they'll much be persuaded otherwise by pointing them to an attendance number in a box score.

Of course it's a challenge for recruiting, and it'd be great if fan attendance wasn't a problem. Unfortunately, you have to develop a winning program to see the attendance numbers rise. You referenced Notre Dame, Stanford, and Wake Forest as small schools with better attendance. Well, Notre Dame has decades of football excellence to rely on, Stanford has a much larger market and more success, and Wake has less competition for local market and more success recently (and it's debatable whether they have so vastly superior attendance). The common thread here is winning. You win and more people will show up.

[Jim3k]

Tevin Hood, son of a Duke grad and now transferred to Yale and on the Yale Football team after playing for Duke for one season, is an example. He was a national merit finalist. My take is that walkons average above 1300 math verbal, which helps.

Hood decided not to play at Yale, though he appears to have enrolled for a semester. He is currently on the roster at the University of San Diego (http://usdtoreros.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hood_tevin00.html). I have no information regarding his success there.

USD is a member of the Pioneer Football League (http://pioneer-football.org/), the same league as Davidson and Campbell. Although the league competes as an NCAA Div. 1 (FCS) school, the league's schools do not offer football scholarships. As a result, Hood did not have to sit out a year and is an active player this season.

USD is currently 3-0 in conference and 5-1 over all (http://usdtoreros.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/sched/usd-m-footbl-sched.html).

[johnb]

Hood decided not to play at Yale, though he appears to have enrolled for a semester. He is currently on the roster at the University of San Diego (http://usdtoreros.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hood_tevin00.html). I have no information regarding his success there.

USD is a member of the Pioneer Football League (http://pioneer-football.org/), the same league as Davidson and Campbell. Although the league competes as an NCAA Div. 1 (FCS) school, the league's schools do not offer football scholarships. As a result, Hood did not have to sit out a year and is an active player this season.

USD is currently 3-0 in conference and 5-1 over all (http://usdtoreros.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/sched/usd-m-footbl-sched.html).

I have no idea what Hood was thinking, but it reminds me a bit of Jeff Van Gundy's decision to transfer from Yale to a JUCO so that he could get experience playing basketball after having been cut by Yale.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/04/21/sports/from-a-scouting-assignment-at-age-10-van-gundy-has-risen-to-the-top.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[johnb]

Exactly. It's isn't Dick Brodhead or Cathy Davidson's job to teach football culture to Duke people. I'm glad this band of CT diehards is into it, but the larger problem is cultural. The proximate portion of the fanbase, by and large, doesn't know how to act for a football game. We've got a proximate fanbase that basically thinks skating in 12 minutes before Duke-UNCG MBB game and leaving at the 8:00 timeout in the 2H is how sports go.

I was amazed when I went from Duke to Mississippi State back in 2004. Mississippi State is generally considered the poor sister of the state schools in the SEC, and has a long history of .500 football on good days. And the atmosphere for each and every home football game is like Carolina home MBB campout times ten. And MSU was going 3-8 each year I was there! And it's not big for a state school, it was under 20K total grad/undergrad then. I've also been to several games at Wake Forest, which is smaller than Duke. Their atmosphere kills us.

I live halfway across the country, so I can't do anything about this. And I've mostly ceased to care. Cutcliffe could go 7-5 every year and Duke's FB atmosphere would still be pretty embarrassing even by ACC standards. A couple games in the last 45 years (State 89, UVA 94) don't change this. This is no fault of the CB&Bs. They're carrying the flag up the hill. But the cultural problem is almost insurmountable.

This NYT article refers to Ole Miss rather than Mississippi State, but I assume it's a similar situation. What I recall from having read the article 5 years ago is the great line: "we may not win every game, but we've never lost a party."
http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/09/29/travel/escapes/29grove.html?pagewanted=all

And I'm really just posting because I like to see this thread as high as possible for as long as possible.

[throatybeard]

This NYT article refers to Ole Miss rather than Mississippi State, but I assume it's a similar situation. What I recall from having read the article 5 years ago is the great line: "we may not win every game, but we've never lost a party."
http://travel.nytimes.com/2006/09/29/travel/escapes/29grove.html?pagewanted=all

And I'm really just posting because I like to see this thread as high as possible for as long as possible.

Colin Cowherd's memorable take on the Grove is "the smell of barbecue, bourbon, and Chanel No 5."

[Reilly]

Exactly. It's isn't Dick Brodhead or Cathy Davidson's job to teach football culture to Duke people. I'm glad this band of CT diehards is into it, but the larger problem is cultural. The proximate portion of the fanbase, by and large, doesn't know how to act for a football game. .....

I live halfway across the country, so I can't do anything about this. And I've mostly ceased to care. ....

This is no fault of the CB&Bs. They're carrying the flag up the hill. But the cultural problem is almost insurmountable.

We'll never be Miss State or anybody. But we can have fun -- a lot of fun -- on a Duke scale. And, things have gotten worlds better. In 25 years of Duke fandom, the saddest I've ever been was opening day of the 2007 football season. That was more sad than losing 59-0 to UVa (I was there). More sad than giving up 64 to Navy in 1996 (I was there). More sad than having Ted Roof punt on 4th and 1 in the cold rain at Notre Dame losing 28-0 (or 7?) in the 4th quarter (I was there). More sad than watching any crushing b'ball defeat (1999 comes to mind). Opening Day 2007 was my first time back on campus since the year 2000. I got there very early. Walked around East. Not a soul. Walked around West. Not a soul. Went to the game. Smattering of folks. For opening day! The most sad I've ever been about the state of a Duke team I cared about. Beyond apathy that day.

You go to a game now, folks are out and about. There is life. The awesome partiers are there under the tents in the Card lot. Kids are playing on moonbounces. There is life. There is energy. Is it as many folks as we want? No. Do folks/students have a football mentality? No. But, it is far, far, far from despair. I've seen despair and hopelessness. We are so far beyond that. Fall football celebrations, what Cut calls them. The team is exciting -- who wants to try to stop Conner Vernon?

P.S., last I checked, RDU is still open. You can help, even if once a year ....

[OZZIE4DUKE]

You go to a game now, folks are out and about. There is life. The awesome partiers are there under the tents in the Card lot.
You're welcome to come join us if you want! :cool: PM me and I'll give you some details!