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obsesseddukefan
08-24-2011, 04:47 PM
With the schedule just coming out about an hour ago, does anyone have any info on what the festivities will be this Year for CTC3? I realize it may be a little premature, but I plan on going again this year, curious if there will be autograph sessions again. Thanks in advance.

oldnavy
08-24-2011, 04:50 PM
Anybody want to bet that NONE of our players will be wearing banana suits?

NovaScotian
08-24-2011, 07:26 PM
Anybody want to bet that NONE of our players will be wearing banana suits?

what exactly do you have against banana suits?

devildeac
08-24-2011, 08:21 PM
Anybody want to bet that NONE of our players will be wearing banana suits?


what exactly do you have against banana suits?

I actually liked the pumpkin costume better and the magician act was kinda cool, too:rolleyes:.

oldnavy
08-26-2011, 06:42 AM
I actually liked the pumpkin costume better and the magician act was kinda cool, too:rolleyes:.

Well, I guess I don't have anything against a banana suit, but they shouldn't be worn after labor day.

The magician act gave me my avatar, so of course I loved it.

ThePublisher
08-26-2011, 12:36 PM
When do tickets go on sale for this?

TonyWR
08-27-2011, 11:29 AM
When do tickets go on sale for this?

Not sure but soon I suspect. I hope this years is as good as the last 2. The dunk contest, the skits, the scrimmage, the activities in K-ville, ex-players....it's an awesome time! I'd love to see more past Dukies there, seeing Laettner there for CTC1 was a treat I won't ever forget!

obsesseddukefan
08-27-2011, 06:08 PM
Not sure but soon I suspect. I hope this years is as good as the last 2. The dunk contest, the skits, the scrimmage, the activities in K-ville, ex-players....it's an awesome time! I'd love to see more past Dukies there, seeing Laettner there for CTC1 was a treat I won't ever forget!

I will never forget seeing Laettner standing next to Hurley..I mean what do you say to them that they already don't know? LOL. They were very personable and I think felt very appreciative with the fans wanting to talk with them. IMHO, I felt CTC1 was the best...I was able to get my ball signed by the entire staff and add it to my collection. The meet and greet I thought was a must for CTC2 especially with Irving on the team. Too bad they didn't have one. I managed to get Austin Rivers autograph but it was on a Duke towel...Sharpie and cloth do not mix unfortunately. I am hoping that there will be another meet and greet this year. Either way the dunk contest and all the activities make it a fun day for all. I really dig the unveiling of the new team posters as well.

TonyWR
09-12-2011, 04:34 PM
When do tickets go on sale for this?

Is there an official date as to when CTC 3 tickets go on sale?

bluedevilchick17
09-20-2011, 09:35 AM
Does anyone have any extra tickets to this that they are willing to sell? I need 2 or 3 tickets for my friends 21st birthday that is on Oct 2nd!! We have never been to a game at Cameron and he is one of the biggest Duke fans that I have ever met!! We do not live in NC so this would mean the world to him if we could go! Please help if you can!

Duke of Nashville
09-20-2011, 10:52 AM
Is there an official date as to when CTC 3 tickets go on sale?

Tickets go on sale the first week of October for CTC 3 and the first exhibition games. Also, there is potentially a big name on the judging panel for the dunk contest this year.

sagegrouse
09-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Does anyone have any extra tickets to this that they are willing to sell? I need 2 or 3 tickets for my friends 21st birthday that is on Oct 2nd!! We have never been to a game at Cameron and he is one of the biggest Duke fans that I have ever met!! We do not live in NC so this would mean the world to him if we could go! Please help if you can!

BDC17: DBR has a special message forum for Ticket Exchange -- see button at top of page. -- sageg.

watzone
09-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Countdown to Craziness. Tickets, ranging from $20-$35, go on sale at www.GoDuke.com/tickets beginning at 8:30 am on Thursday, Sept. 29.

We'll be there and you should too.

dukeballboy88
09-26-2011, 08:23 PM
I hear Julius Randle wont be in attendance now. I was told it was his high school homecoming. Anyone heard anything about him?

blev23
09-28-2011, 03:26 PM
He stated in his latest blog that he cancelled because it's his High School Homecoming week. Can't blame him for that. I was really looking forward to seeing him though. I watched him play at the Beach Ball Classic last year and this kid is the real deal. His blog is located under the "Class of 2013 Recruiting" thread.

ThePublisher
09-29-2011, 08:41 AM
Anyone know what side of Cameron is better to sit on? Obviously for the game is doesn't matter, but what about the stage?

uh_no
09-29-2011, 09:14 AM
Anyone know what side of Cameron is better to sit on? Obviously for the game is doesn't matter, but what about the stage?

no stage for C2C, or at least there wasn't previously. if K talks, he'll face the student section probably

TonyWR
09-29-2011, 11:40 AM
Anyone know what side of Cameron is better to sit on? Obviously for the game is doesn't matter, but what about the stage?

There are no bad seats in Cameron!

MulletMan
09-29-2011, 12:10 PM
no stage for C2C, or at least there wasn't previously. if K talks, he'll face the student section probably

He speaks in the round, acknowledging all four sides of the stadium as he speaks.

Judges for the dunk contest will sit on the court near the scorer's table. Players entered last season down the stairs of the grad student/band section on the north end. Dunkers dunk in front of the grad section on the south end (home team goal in the second half of games).

arlight
09-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Hey! This is going to be my first time attending Countdown to Craziness, I was just wondering if there's any chance of meeting the players.

Thank you, and go blue devils!

uh_no
09-29-2011, 04:18 PM
Hey! This is going to be my first time attending Countdown to Craziness, I was just wondering if there's any chance of meeting the players.

Thank you, and go blue devils!

I can't speak for everyone, but when I was there as a student, the best time to catch the players was always a few hours beforehand when they're walking into cameron from the card parking lot. I've never run into players inside the stadium, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Perhaps some of the others have a different perspective.

Duke of Nashville
09-29-2011, 04:41 PM
Hey! This is going to be my first time attending Countdown to Craziness, I was just wondering if there's any chance of meeting the players.

Thank you, and go blue devils!

You can catch some at the True Blue Cue Crew's tailgate on Devil's Alley at the next home football game....:cool:

UrinalCake
09-29-2011, 10:13 PM
Last year wasn't it a whole-day event where they had autograph sessions with the players in the afternoon? Or maybe they did it the day before the game, can't remember.

obsesseddukefan
09-29-2011, 11:01 PM
Last year wasn't it a whole-day event where they had autograph sessions with the players in the afternoon? Or maybe they did it the day before the game, can't remember.

While it was fairly easy to get autographs at CTC the last few years, I think you are referring to 2009 when the event was a 2 day extravaganza. Friday was the usual dunk contest, the new team poster was displayed, etc. Then early on Saturday, was the autograph session that was for a few hours where you could get anything signed, even Coach K had a roped off line to meet him as well. Was fortunate enough to get some jerseys and a ball signed by the whole team that is now my center piece (since Duke won the championship and all ;) Also a chance to get pics with the ACC trophies, the NC trophies and Coack K's Olympic Medal. Sunday was the open practice.

uh_no
09-30-2011, 01:04 AM
While it was fairly easy to get autographs at CTC the last few years, I think you are referring to 2009 when the event was a 2 day extravaganza.

that was 2010, after we won the natty. 2009 was the inaugural C2C i believe.

El_Diablo
09-30-2011, 07:34 AM
that was 2010, after we won the natty. 2009 was the inaugural C2C i believe.

No, obsesseddukefan had it right. 2009 was the open house, when the team signed the Goodfellas poster the morning after C2C. Last year (2010), they didn't have the open house.

uh_no
09-30-2011, 09:25 AM
No, obsesseddukefan had it right. 2009 was the open house, when the team signed the Goodfellas poster the morning after C2C. Last year (2010), they didn't have the open house.

I stand corrected, then.

airowe
09-30-2011, 10:23 AM
I don't think they'll have the open house again unless the football team is not playing a home game the same weekend. Don't want to interfere.

If it were me, I'd try to have some cross-promotion between the basketball and football teams but I'm sure there is a lot more going on behind the scenes that I don't know about.

UrinalCake
09-30-2011, 10:38 AM
Man, how old are we that we can't even keep our years straight :) I hope they do an autograph session-type thing this year, though we also have a lot of younger players who might not be as comfortable with it.

Any early bets on who will win the dunk contest? Mason is probably the favorite but Gbinije could be a sleeper.

ThePublisher
09-30-2011, 10:49 AM
Man, how old are we that we can't even keep our years straight :) I hope they do an autograph session-type thing this year, though we also have a lot of younger players who might not be as comfortable with it.

Any early bets on who will win the dunk contest? Mason is probably the favorite but Gbinije could be a sleeper.

I'm betting on either SubZero or Dre All Day taking the honors.

airowe
09-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Andre is two-time defending champion. I don't see how he wouldn't be the favorite.

obsesseddukefan
09-30-2011, 12:18 PM
Man, how old are we that we can't even keep our years straight :) I hope they do an autograph session-type thing this year, though we also have a lot of younger players who might not be as comfortable with it.

Any early bets on who will win the dunk contest? Mason is probably the favorite but Gbinije could be a sleeper.


I can barely keep my days straight let alone years :p

My pick is for Dre to win again this year..although I would love to see Kelly do his thing.

NSDukeFan
09-30-2011, 12:31 PM
I can barely keep my days straight let alone years :p

My pick is for Dre to win again this year..although I would love to see Kelly do his thing.

I am also looking forward to seeing Kelly do his thing. But I don't think that nice pump fake moves, blocking a surprising amount of shots, good perimeter shooting, doing a reasonable job when switched out on perimeter players, making nice interior passes, etc. will win the dunk contest.

August West
09-30-2011, 12:46 PM
Tickets for CTC came today! Can't wait. :)

obsesseddukefan
09-30-2011, 02:16 PM
I am also looking forward to seeing Kelly do his thing. But I don't think that nice pump fake moves, blocking a surprising amount of shots, good perimeter shooting, doing a reasonable job when switched out on perimeter players, making nice interior passes, etc. will win the dunk contest.

LOL LOL very true NSDukeFan, but if you give a kid an open lane and no one guarding him...I think we would both be amazed by what the kids today say are considered "mad ups" LOL LOL. Either way I expect good good things to come Kellys way this year.

chrishoke
09-30-2011, 03:12 PM
Can't wait for the new season to begin. This will be a fun year.

blazindw
09-30-2011, 08:31 PM
Just got my tickets in the mail today...excited for this!!

And for those wondering, there is a home football game that Saturday (against FSU). It'll be awesome to be down to catch both teams!

30scheyer
09-30-2011, 10:45 PM
got my tix: section 16 row E
You?

TonyWR
10-02-2011, 02:36 PM
got my tix: section 16 row E
You?

Section 1, row I.

Gonna hit the basketball museum and Nasher beforehand then K-ville and Cameron!

dukebsbll14
10-02-2011, 11:49 PM
oooohh y'all should come by and say hello. I don't have class on Fridays so I'll be spending most(if not all) of the day in K-ville. And I'd love to meet some of the Dukies on this board.

Super excited. Was front row for CTC last year at it was a blast. Hoping Dre gets the dunk title for the third straight year. Even though he's class of 2013, I still consider him class of 2014 haha. He's our guy!!!!

PADukeMom
10-03-2011, 10:55 AM
I always thought K didn't receive a gold medal for the Olympics. Now I am confused.

obsesseddukefan
10-03-2011, 11:51 AM
I always thought K didn't receive a gold medal for the Olympics. Now I am confused.

He did not, but when they won the gold all the players put thier medals around his neck. What was at CTC was either one of the players medal, or a replica...if that makes sense on a Monday Morning...:p

sagegrouse
10-03-2011, 12:23 PM
He did not, but when they won the gold all the players put thier medals around his neck. What was at CTC was either one of the players medal, or a replica...if that makes sense on a Monday Morning...:p

ODF and PaDuke Mom -- Coaches don't Olympic medals in any sport. But coaches did get medals for the FIBA World Championship in 2010.

sagegrouse

Gewebe14
10-05-2011, 10:31 AM
Anyone know if the tickets are sold out for CDTC? I can't find the link to buy tickets on Goduke's website.

1 24 90
10-05-2011, 12:09 PM
http://www.goduke.com//ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205311130

gep
10-05-2011, 01:08 PM
http://www.goduke.com//ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205311130

This is just awesome. I just looked at the ESPN3 site under "upcoming", and Duke's CTC is listed. The best part of ESPN3, to me, is that essentially all events can be replayed. (I've noticed in the past that NBA games, while can be watched live, are not replayed.) I hope those asking about ESPN3 in the other thread can resolve the issues and get access.

edit (more info): I just saw that while watchespn.com shows all ESPN networks (ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, ESPN3, etc) only ESPN3 events are apparently replayed.

devildeac
10-10-2011, 09:20 AM
Page 2 for this? The horrors! Too much/many FB discussion/s (jk). See y'all Friday night!

dukedoc
10-11-2011, 07:17 PM
Can't wait for this season to get underway! Luke Winn giving our backcourt some props: link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1110/cbb-top-16-backcourts/content.16.html)

sagegrouse
10-11-2011, 08:16 PM
Can't wait for this season to get underway! Luke Winn giving our backcourt some props: link (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1110/cbb-top-16-backcourts/content.16.html)

As the man said, college basketball is a guard's game.................. sageg.

Duke31122
10-11-2011, 11:12 PM
What do you guys think are realistic goals for this season? I believe we have a good squad and a Final Four is possible.

dukeballboy88
10-12-2011, 06:39 AM
I think we will win it all every year and this year is no different.

Ibleedblue87
10-14-2011, 10:40 AM
Anyone have a remote access account for ESPN3 that a fan could use to watch tonight? dumb internet provider doesn't support it

Ibleedblue87

J4Kop99
10-14-2011, 11:03 AM
Any recruits scheduled to be there tonight?

Bluedog
10-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Any recruits scheduled to be there tonight?

Matt Jones. Also Rasheed will be there.

UNCleRod
10-14-2011, 12:06 PM
Matt Jones. Also Rasheed will be there.

Tony Parker, Julius Randle, & Jabari Parker?

rhcpflea99
10-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Awww feels like I'm coming out of hibernation.

watzone
10-14-2011, 01:00 PM
Josh Hairston is ready for CTC - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/josh-hairston-is-ready-for-countdown-to-craziness-are-you/

CLW
10-14-2011, 07:20 PM
Apparently my ISP doesn't offer ESPN3 access. Anyone know of another free stream of C2C?

UrinalCake
10-14-2011, 11:06 PM
Apparently my ISP doesn't offer ESPN3 access. Anyone know of another free stream of C2C?

The last two years someone has posted it on youtube within a day or two. Keep an eye out for it there.

devildeac
10-14-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm glad we have 3 Plumlees this year as Miles and Mason each had 4 PF with 4 minutes left in a 24 minute scrimmage and Miles "fouled out" within seconds after I texted CB&B that tidbit. More later, but Seth is quite a player.

basket1544
10-14-2011, 11:44 PM
Not to take anything away from the other Blue Team members, but Seth was a beast! The White Team seemed to play more as a collective team, but Seth refused to go away. I loved seeing his leadership come out and his 3 pointer in the closing part of the second half was from JJ-range. He was in perfect rhythm. So I guess now the question is, will he be Duke's leading scorer this year?

CDu
10-14-2011, 11:54 PM
Not to take anything away from the other Blue Team members, but Seth was a beast! The White Team seemed to play more as a collective team, but Seth refused to go away. I loved seeing his leadership come out and his 3 pointer in the closing part of the second half was from JJ-range. He was in perfect rhythm. So I guess now the question is, will he be Duke's leading scorer this year?

I assume he'll be among the top 3 scorers for Duke. And there will be plenty of games this year where he leads the team in scoring. Whether he leads the team in scoring or Rivers or Dawkins leads the team is very much in doubt. I'd expect it to be Rivers or Curry, with Dawkins and Kelly also very comfortably in double figures.

loldevilz
10-15-2011, 12:38 AM
I could easily see Seth Curry leading the team in scoring as he is the top returning scorer from last year. What I've seen so far from the games in China and Dubai and now the Blue/White scrimmage continues to make me believe that Duke has four really really good college basketball players in Seth Curry, Austin Rivers, Ryan Kelly, and Miles Plumlee. What we need is role players guys in the Lance Thomas type mold. Mason Plumlee could be that guy. Hairston or Gbinije could be it.

CDu
10-15-2011, 01:00 AM
I could easily see Seth Curry leading the team in scoring as he is the top returning scorer from last year. What I've seen so far from the games in China and Dubai and now the Blue/White scrimmage continues to make me believe that Duke has four really really good college basketball players in Seth Curry, Austin Rivers, Ryan Kelly, and Miles Plumlee. What we need is role players guys in the Lance Thomas type mold. Mason Plumlee could be that guy. Hairston or Gbinije could be it.

I'd put Mason and Dawkins in the conversation just as quickly as I'd bring up Miles. You seem to be forgetting that Mason had at least 7 rebounds in 15 of his last 18 games last year, had 14 double-figure rebound games, and had 6 double-doubles. So I'm not ready to say Miles has definitively jumped past Mason based simply on two or three exhibitions in August. At the very least, I'm not going to say that Mason isn't a very good college basketball player yet.

I don't think we'll see a whole lot of Hairston or Gbinije this year, so I don't think they'll fill any Lance Thomas type mold. And I don't really see similarities between either of those guys and Lance Thomas (Gbinije is a wing and Hairston isn't as quick as Thomas was).

stickdog
10-15-2011, 01:55 AM
I wouldn't count out Murphy for that role.

Greg_Newton
10-15-2011, 02:21 AM
As per the annual tradition, I'd like to make a few unwarranted, completely unjustifiable predictions based on one scrimmage in October:

1. People will be calling for Cook to take over as starting PG from time to time this year, especially Jan/Feb when we lose a couple games and Cook has some good stretches. However, Curry is going to win us a LOT of games and give us some legendary performances when it really matters, and be one of the better guards in the country.

He's just a winner. He is our closer, plain and simple. It's incredible - he even did this during summer league games - at around the 5-10 minute mark in games when he's behind, he injects himself with NZT and starts moving about 10 times faster than normal and playing perfect basketball until his team inevitably wins. How many points did he score in the last 5 minutes tonight? How many incredible steals did he have that he had no business getting? I remember at least 3 in the last 3-4 minutes, all of which were huge.

2. Miles and Ryan are going to be an exponentially better frontcourt than we've had in the last recruiting cycle. They look like they've made major jumps, even since this summer. I remember being shocked that during those last couple of minutes, I found myself wanting the white team to actually pass the ball inside to the big men to make plays when we needed them, rather than letting the guards (including AR) do their thing. When was the last time you could say anything close to that, even in a blue/white game? IMO, Miles, Kelly and Curry were clearly the best 3 players on the floor.

3. Curry, Rivers, Dawkins, Thornton and Cook are going to get the majority of the 1-3 minutes, with all 5 playing in most games. Each is a legit ACC player, right now, and each brings a unique set of strengths. Murphy is going to show flashes and get minutes, but not put up significant numbers (~2ppg?). He's going to be a stud - and can still be effective without scoring much - but he has a lot of adjusting to do and we've got too many other weapons.

4. Rivers will be a complement, rather than centerpiece, to the offense. With Miles, Ryan and Curry playing at such high levels, we really just need Rivers and Dawkins to provide explosiveness, defense and scoring in bunches from the wings. I think this suits both the team and the individual players best, given where they are in their games right now. There will be room for Austin to take on a greater role if he grows into it, but we have the luxury of letting that happen rather than forcing him to drive everything from day one.

NYC Duke Fan
10-15-2011, 04:24 AM
Haven't heard very much about him as to what role he might have this year etc. Do you think that maybe he should be red-shirted this year as it doesn't look like he will see much action? If you are red-shirted I assume that you can still practice with the team.

DevilWearsPrada
10-15-2011, 07:00 AM
Not to take anything away from the other Blue Team members, but Seth was a beast! The White Team seemed to play more as a collective team, but Seth refused to go away. I loved seeing his leadership come out and his 3 pointer in the closing part of the second half was from JJ-range. He was in perfect rhythm. So I guess now the question is, will he be Duke's leading scorer this year?

When I went to see Steph Curry play at RBC center in 2008 for the NCAA games, I would shout out and cheer loud, when Steph made a Big 3 or bucket.... "PUT A LITTLE CURRY ON THAT!!!"

Seth in my opinion is just as good as Steph. I watched Seth when he would practice with the team, during his Red Shirt Year, and Seth made the 2010 stronger and better, especially Nolan and Jon, to become a National Team. Seth has such court vision and shouting range.

Thanks for the updates on CTC! I didnt get to attend. But my heart was there!

"Put a LITTLE CURRY on that, please!!!

Lets Go Duke!

arnie
10-15-2011, 08:36 AM
Think Cook will play a lot as part of 4-5 man rotation among the three guard slots. Mason still needs to develop a "go to" inside move, but maybe Miles' defense had something to do with this last night.

Enjoyed Collins taking it to WOJO as Blue came back from huge deficit to win.

Newton_14
10-15-2011, 09:14 AM
Very fun night. Greg_Newton pretty much hit the nail on the head with his summary. With about 5 minutes left, and the Blue team down 13, I turned to my buddy I attended the game with, and asked him if the Blue Team had a run in them. Almost immediately, Seth scored 5 points in like 30 seconds, and the comeback was on. What was really impressive about Seth's performance, was his patience all game long. He never forced anything, did not "try to be great", just played a very solid game maintaining a steady speed if you will, then matted the accelerator in the last 5 minutes to carry his team to the win. Very impressive.

Interesting that for the first time in a long time, K split the teams evenly. The White team was not the predicted starting lineup, so don't read anything into who wore White vs who wore Blue. White team was Thornton, Cook, Rivers, Kelly, Miles, with Silent G coming off the bench. Blue team was Seth, Andre, Murphy, Mason, Josh, with Marshall coming of the bench. Also for the first time in a long time, K did not switch the teams around at the half.

The upperclassmen were all solid, with Seth, Miles, Kelly, Mason, and Andre all showing development and maturity from last year. All 5 are definitely solid players that can be counted on game in and game out. Austin is a special talent and showed that, especially in the first half. He looked better to me than he did in the China games. Thinks and reacts quicker, moving the ball much better than he did in China. His defense looked improved as well. He still made some freshman mistakes, which was not surprising. By mid-year I think we will see a much improved player.

I was pleasantly surprised with Cook. I had only seen him in the Nike Hoop Summit since he missed the Summer League with the knee issue. He showed great poise, great ball-handling skills, and quickness. He is going to be a great boost off the bench. Will definitely contribute this year.

Overall, I liked what I saw. All of the bigs got touches inside with each showing an ability to make good things happen down low. Miles was the most impressive, but Kelly and Mason had their moments. Mason nailed a beautiful right-hand hook and looked much improved at the line. Don't read anything into the whole "Miles fouled out in 24 minutes" chatter. First, he had 5 fouls but was not expelled from the game. They did not have a foul limit, so there was no need to worry about picking up too many fouls. That led to really aggressive play in the paint, much of it brother on brother with none of the siblings giving each other anything easy.

I am very much looking forward to the first exhibition game two weeks from tonight, where we can see the guys against another team, and see the various lineups K will throw out there. As Mason said, "they go to work today". Very deep team, with a ton of young talent. The battle for the 7th, 8th, 9th place in the rotation should be fierce, and with the mix of talent, K can throw a ton of different looks at the competition. They showed a 3 qtr court zone press at times last night, and with the athlete's out there, they will be able to use that at times to apply pressure, and create turnovers.

A great night in Cameron Indoor with a great atmosphere. Like K stated, "it was good to be back at home" in the world's greatest sports venue!

CDu
10-15-2011, 09:48 AM
Haven't heard very much about him as to what role he might have this year etc. Do you think that maybe he should be red-shirted this year as it doesn't look like he will see much action? If you are red-shirted I assume that you can still practice with the team.

Murphy seemed to be ahead of Gbinije and Hairston in the 3/4 rotation, so I'd expect him to see more action than those two and Marshall. I doubt he would be redshirted, though I definitely don't think he'll be getting starter minutes. The word from many has been that nobody is planning to redshirt.

As for the practice question - yes, you can practice as a redshirt.

Newton_14
10-15-2011, 09:56 AM
Murphy seemed to be ahead of Gbinije and Hairston in the 3/4 rotation, so I'd expect him to see more action than those two and Marshall. I doubt he would be redshirted, though I definitely don't think he'll be getting starter minutes. The word from many has been that nobody is planning to redshirt.

As for the practice question - yes, you can practice as a redshirt.

Agree. I think Murphy and Gbinije will battle each other all season for the backup minutes at the 3. When K chooses to go small, one of those two would likely slide down to the 4.

Regarding Josh, he played pretty well last night. Especially down the key stretch run. It will be interesting to see how many minutes Josh can garner at the 4 spot. The big 3 of Miles, Mason, and Ryan will eat the bulk of the minutes at the 4/5 positions. Josh, Alex, and Mike will battle for the remaining minutes at the 4, with Alex, and Michael battling for minutes at the 3 as well. They will be behind Andre and Austin for those minutes at the 3 though.

This is the deepest I can recall Duke being at the Small and Power Forward slots.

House G
10-15-2011, 11:07 AM
What do you guys think are realistic goals for this season? I believe we have a good squad and a Final Four is possible.

Doug Gottlieb said last night that he believes Duke can be a 25-win team but he thinks they may max out at this level. He and Hubert Davis both said that, Austin Rivers
aside, Duke has only role players. Hubert believes Duke needs someone to become the "go-to guy", someone who will transition from a role player to "the" player. I don't
think this is likely, given the makeup of our team. I think it is a good thing that we are deep and likely to have balanced scoring. I also like it when people make comments
such as: ". . . when we look at the ACC, it seems to be North Carolina and everybody else".

basket1544
10-15-2011, 11:14 AM
I love it when Gottlieb gives good bulletin board material. I guess since he couldn't call these players "alarmingly unathletic" he decided to call them a bunch of role players. Can't wait to see what these players do with that.

jimsumner
10-15-2011, 11:31 AM
Agree. I think Murphy and Gbinije will battle each other all season for the backup minutes at the 3. When K chooses to go small, one of those two would likely slide down to the 4.

Regarding Josh, he played pretty well last night. Especially down the key stretch run. It will be interesting to see how many minutes Josh can garner at the 4 spot. The big 3 of Miles, Mason, and Ryan will eat the bulk of the minutes at the 4/5 positions. Josh, Alex, and Mike will battle for the remaining minutes at the 4, with Alex, and Michael battling for minutes at the 3 as well. They will be behind Andre and Austin for those minutes at the 3 though.

This is the deepest I can recall Duke being at the Small and Power Forward slots.

Murphy hasn't exploded in game competition yet. But Duke really, really likes what they've seen from him in practices and work-outs. I suspect he'll get better and better as the season progresses.

Duke has a very good freshman class. It's not just Rivers and the four dwarves.

ACCBBallFan
10-15-2011, 11:39 AM
As per the annual tradition, I'd like to make a few unwarranted, completely unjustifiable predictions based on one scrimmage in October:

1. People will be calling for Cook to take over as starting PG from time to time this year, especially Jan/Feb when we lose a couple games and Cook has some good stretches. However, Curry is going to win us a LOT of games and give us some legendary performances when it really matters, and be one of the better guards in the country.

He's just a winner. He is our closer, plain and simple. It's incredible - he even did this during summer league games - at around the 5-10 minute mark in games when he's behind, he injects himself with NZT and starts moving about 10 times faster than normal and playing perfect basketball until his team inevitably wins. How many points did he score in the last 5 minutes tonight? How many incredible steals did he have that he had no business getting? I remember at least 3 in the last 3-4 minutes, all of which were huge.

2. Miles and Ryan are going to be an exponentially better frontcourt than we've had in the last recruiting cycle. They look like they've made major jumps, even since this summer. I remember being shocked that during those last couple of minutes, I found myself wanting the white team to actually pass the ball inside to the big men to make plays when we needed them, rather than letting the guards (including AR) do their thing. When was the last time you could say anything close to that, even in a blue/white game? IMO, Miles, Kelly and Curry were clearly the best 3 players on the floor.

3. Curry, Rivers, Dawkins, Thornton and Cook are going to get the majority of the 1-3 minutes, with all 5 playing in most games. Each is a legit ACC player, right now, and each brings a unique set of strengths. Murphy is going to show flashes and get minutes, but not put up significant numbers (~2ppg?). He's going to be a stud - and can still be effective without scoring much - but he has a lot of adjusting to do and we've got too many other weapons.

4. Rivers will be a complement, rather than centerpiece, to the offense. With Miles, Ryan and Curry playing at such high levels, we really just need Rivers and Dawkins to provide explosiveness, defense and scoring in bunches from the wings. I think this suits both the team and the individual players best, given where they are in their games right now. There will be room for Austin to take on a greater role if he grows into it, but we have the luxury of letting that happen rather than forcing him to drive everything from day one.


Agree. I think Murphy and Gbinije will battle each other all season for the backup minutes at the 3. When K chooses to go small, one of those two would likely slide down to the 4.

Regarding Josh, he played pretty well last night. Especially down the key stretch run. It will be interesting to see how many minutes Josh can garner at the 4 spot. The big 3 of Miles, Mason, and Ryan will eat the bulk of the minutes at the 4/5 positions. Josh, Alex, and Mike will battle for the remaining minutes at the 4, with Alex, and Michael battling for minutes at the 3 as well. They will be behind Andre and Austin for those minutes at the 3 though.

This is the deepest I can recall Duke being at the Small and Power Forward slots.
There won't be many minutes to go around at PF/C after MP1, MP2 and Kelly, but my guess is that Josh Hairston with his experience in Duke system and his strength currently has the edge.

Rivers will be fine when he slows it down, 6 turnovers last night. Not many teams draw offensive fouls like Duke does, but Austin will have to be careful on that since as a frosh he will not get those calls.

Quinn Cook looks like he may be a better overall PG than Tyler Thornton. He and MP3 did a little better than I expected, while Murphy and Gbinije played nervously and did not do much at all. We rationalized tentative play in China/Dubai and can again attribute it to first game at Cameroan but Alex and Mike need to step it up in exhibition games.

So at his point, my top 7 would be the 5 upperclassmen plus Austin and Quinn with Mason and Quinn first two subs in. Josh is #8 if needed at PF, and TBD among Alex/Mike for #9, my guess was Murphy but he did not show it last night, when Duke needs a SF bigger than Dre or Austin.

Tyler #10 in rotation will again be the defensive energy guy when coach K wants to crank up the pressure but fouls a lot. The other of Gbinije/Murphy will be #11 and MP3 is #12.

Mop up minutes a term coach K detests along with "pods" will go to the undersvclassmen frosh not named Rivers and the two sophs Tyler and Josh.

As coach K said about Kyrie when comparing his frosh impact to Austin, the PG posiition is typically more ready in frosh year, so Quinn Cook being a natural PG showed that. His knee seemed fine.

ACCBBallFan
10-15-2011, 11:51 AM
Andre is two-time defending champion. I don't see how he wouldn't be the favorite.

My guess is that Dre has some minor undisclosed injuury. Why would he not compete in dunk contest when as you say he won one and tied the other his first two years. He also played somewhat tentatively in the scrimmage.

As was the case with Quinn this summer though, better to err on side of caution.

Bob Green
10-15-2011, 11:54 AM
I enjoyed watching the Blue vs White Scrimmage and saw some things which make me smile:

1. Once again, the team is loaded with players who can knockdown 3-point FGs. Dawkins and Curry led the team in made 3-point FGs last season with 64 plus Rivers and Cook are added to the mix. Duke made 280 3-point FGs last season making 37.7% of their attempts. Due to the departure of Singler and Smith I'm not sure this team will make as many 3-point FGs as last season but can they make a higher percentage? The Blue and White squads were a combined 8 - 20 last night. And that was with Dawkins having a cold shooting night (1-7).

2. Miles Plumlee and Ryan Kelly complement each other nicely. I look forward to seeing the two work high low post passes for easy baskets. These two should start and see as many minutes as they can handle. Kelly had a quiet night, but Miles looked great showing off both a right-hand and left-hand hook shot. Miles made 3 of 4 free throw attempts as well.

Mason Plumlee still looked inconsistent. It's like something hasn't "clicked" for him. If the coaching staff can work with Mason and achieve that "click" he has the potential to be a monster. The team needs him to be a monster.

Our inside game is in strong shape with these three guys. Of course, foul trouble will be a concern so Josh Hairston and Marshall Plumlee will need to be ready to step in and play.

3. Team speed is average. Duke is not a slow team but an opponent with great speed will be a challenge on the defensive end of the court and could give us fits.

4. Depth is a strength. The five freshmen all look ready to play in varying capacities and that provides Coach Krzyzewski with a lot of flexibility to mix and match player combinations and develop game strategies.

5. Seth Curry has superstar potential. Right now I would say Duke is a team with a lot of talented players but no one player who strikes fear into the heart of opponents. If a player is going to develop into a star this year, I expect it to be Seth Curry. As Greg Newton stated above:


As per the annual tradition, I'd like to make a few unwarranted, completely unjustifiable predictions based on one scrimmage in October:

1. Seth Curry will be the team's leading scorer.
2. The starting five will be: Miles Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Andre Dawkins, Austin Rivers and Seth Curry.

I haven't seen any post that contains a link to the box score so here it is:

https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/791408.pdf?ATCLID=205316855&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200

jimsumner
10-15-2011, 12:17 PM
Some thoughts on the three bigs.

I think it's useful to recognize that Miles and RK played with each other last night, while Mason was paired inside with either Hairston or Marshall.

It was pretty intense inside last night. No quarter asked, none given. Ryan told me its been like that all the time.

Mason seemed surrounded inside in ways that RK and Miles weren't. Hairston and Marshall aren't up to that level yet, although Hairston made some key plays in his team's rally.

But anytime you divide the three bigs in a scrimmage or practice, the one against two is going to put the one at a disadvantage. Had Miles and Mason been paired, RK may not have looked as good. Had Mason and Ryan been paired, ditto with Miles.

ACCBBallFan
10-15-2011, 12:28 PM
I enjoyed watching the Blue vs White Scrimmage and saw some things which make me smile:

1. Once again, the team is loaded with players who can knockdown 3-point FGs. Dawkins and Curry led the team in made 3-point FGs last season with 64 plus Rivers and Cook are added to the mix. Duke made 280 3-point FGs last season making 37.7% of their attempts. Due to the departure of Singler and Smith I'm not sure this team will make as many 3-point FGs as last season but can they make a higher percentage? The Blue and White squads were a combined 8 - 20 last night. And that was with Dawkins having a cold shooting night (1-7).

2. Miles Plumlee and Ryan Kelly complement each other nicely. I look forward to seeing the two work high low post passes for easy baskets. These two should start and see as many minutes as they can handle. Kelly had a quiet night, but Miles looked great showing off both a right-hand and left-hand hook shot. Miles made 3 of 4 free throw attempts as well.

Mason Plumlee still looked inconsistent. It's like something hasn't "clicked" for him. If the coaching staff can work with Mason and achieve that "click" he has the potential to be a monster. The team needs him to be a monster.

Our inside game is in strong shape with these three guys. Of course, foul trouble will be a concern so Josh Hairston and Marshall Plumlee will need to be ready to step in and play.

3. Team speed is average. Duke is not a slow team but an opponent with great speed will be a challenge on the defensive end of the court and could give us fits.

4. Depth is a strength. The five freshmen all look ready to play in varying capacities and that provides Coach Krzyzewski with a lot of flexibility to mix and match player combinations and develop game strategies.

5. Seth Curry has superstar potential. Right now I would say Duke is a team with a lot of talented players but no one player who strikes fear into the heart of opponents. If a player is going to develop into a star this year, I expect it to be Seth Curry. As Greg Newton stated above:



1. Seth Curry will be the team's leading scorer.
2. The starting five will be: Miles Plumlee, Ryan Kelly, Andre Dawkins, Austin Rivers and Seth Curry.

I haven't seen any post that contains a link to the box score so here it is:

https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/791408.pdf?ATCLID=205316855&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200

I guess it can be looked at both ways, but the way I see it is if Seth can light it up like that when piared only with one shooter Dre, imagine what he can do when paired with Dre @SG, Austin @ SF and Ryan @PF instead of the non scoring threats Murphy and Hairston.

I did not keep track of whether Seth mostly abused Quinn (13 min) or Tyler (19 min), but when a guy scores that much you also have to look at his defenders. At the beginning it was Quinn on Seth, Tyler on Dre, Alex on Austin. Josh on Ryan and Mason on Miles. On first sub when Gbinije replaced Quinn, Dre guarded Austin and Alex gaurded Mike.

Seth scored 12 points in first half and 16 in second when matchups may have been different.

In that lineup, Austin had to play SF and did a good job garnering 5 rebounds. So of the two, I tend to think of Dre as the SG and Austin as the SF with the benefit being having both Seth and Dre back to defend against fast break when Austin takes it to the hoop.

Small sample size but FT shootign was really encouraging especiallyboth elder Plums and Austin 3-4 and Alex 2-2, while these 4 shot FT terribly in China/Dubai.

Can't read too much into the PT as six players per side forced some of the subs but Austin and Alex each played 24 minutes as did the upperclassmen, Tyler 19, Josh 17, Mike 16, Quinn 13 and Marshall 7 with Todd Z not getting off the pine. While I thought Quinn outplayed Tyler, Thornton has the bigger PT.

-bdbd
10-15-2011, 01:19 PM
Matt Jones. Also Rasheed will be there.


Tony Parker, Julius Randle, & Jabari Parker?


So any notes on the recruits in attendance? Any cheers for any of them? Did we see much reaction,enthusiasm, commitments, etc, etc.????

;) :rolleyes: :D

El_Diablo
10-15-2011, 01:45 PM
Matt Jones and Rasheed Sulaimon were in attendance. Matt got a cheer from the Crazies, which he acknowledged with a smile and a wave.

DukieInBrasil
10-15-2011, 05:02 PM
I was super-impressed with Curry, who seems to have developed his game even since China. Austin shot the ball a bit better but his play still seemed a bit rushed frequently.
I was impressed with Marshall, too, for the little that he played. He went strait to the rim when he got the ball, and made his FTs too, with a good-looking stroke. Looks like he moves well on the floor.
Liked seeing some Blue Devils ball again!

Dukeface88
10-15-2011, 07:16 PM
Doug Gottlieb said last night that he believes Duke can be a 25-win team but he thinks they may max out at this level.

Considering we've only "maxed out" at less than 25 wins once in the last ten years, I like the over on that bet.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 07:30 PM
Doug Gottlieb said last night that he believes Duke can be a 25-win team but he thinks they may max out at this level. He and Hubert Davis both said that, Austin Rivers
aside, Duke has only role players. Hubert believes Duke needs someone to become the "go-to guy", someone who will transition from a role player to "the" player. I don't
think this is likely, given the makeup of our team. I think it is a good thing that we are deep and likely to have balanced scoring. I also like it when people make comments
such as: ". . . when we look at the ACC, it seems to be North Carolina and everybody else".

First of all, seeing as it was Doug Gottlieb and Hubiased Davis who said, I'm inclined to believe exactly the opposite.

Perhaps Douggy think's we're alarmingly unathletic again...Perhps the reason they think we have only role players is because the entire team played with 3 of the best players in the country last year...kind of hard to shine when you're playing off kyle and nolan....but I never exactly expect these guys to use critical thinking skills....

If I want reasoned analysis...I look elsewhere....I suggest you do, too.

dukebsbll14
10-15-2011, 07:50 PM
So any notes on the recruits in attendance? Any cheers for any of them? Did we see much reaction,enthusiasm, commitments, etc, etc.????

;) :rolleyes: :D

We cheered for Matt and Rasheed. Both seemed to enjoy it.

Native
10-15-2011, 07:51 PM
Matt Jones and Rasheed Sulaimon were in attendance. Matt got a cheer from the Crazies, which he acknowledged with a smile and a wave.

Yep, my group got chants going for Matt and Rasheed. We also did a "We Love Texas" chant and a few others. Was JaQuel Richmond there?

dukebsbll14
10-15-2011, 07:54 PM
Yep, my group got chants going for Matt and Rasheed. We also did a "We Love Texas" chant and a few others. Was JaQuel Richmond there?

According the the Chronicle, JaQuel was there, but we couldn't spot him (I like visual confirmation before I chant...)

By the by, were you by any chance in the group right at center court? I was right in front of the "Coach K Court" logo...

Newton_14
10-15-2011, 08:06 PM
Murphy hasn't exploded in game competition yet. But Duke really, really likes what they've seen from him in practices and work-outs. I suspect he'll get better and better as the season progresses.

Duke has a very good freshman class. It's not just Rivers and the four dwarves.

Thanks Jim. I definitely am not giving up on Murphy, not at all. Thinking about his play last night on the way home, I reminded myself that Scheyer had a less than impressive Blue White game his Freshman year as well. I went home that night thinking Jon was not ready to contribute. Missed that one by a mile. I think Murphy will contribute this year, but I just don't see him starting unless Andre gets hurt or hits a major slump. I do feel Murphy will be in the rotation. My hope is that Gbinije is good enough to push Murphy. When I said "backup" minutes, I meant in the rotation, but not starting, rather than "mop up" minutes. Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part and conveyed the wrong message.

I agree with you regarding the Freshman. I was pleasantly surprised with Cook last night. 3 or 4 of the Freshman will likely contribute this season against conference competition.

In other news, while leaving the Football game today, I walked past a really sweet, black Dodge Challenger SRT with Florida plates parked in the Whitford parking lot between the baseball and lacrosse fields. Awesome ride with Black Rims and bright red brakes. I stopped to check it out, before heading on. I turned back a few minutes later to see Austin Rivers hopping in it. The benefits of being the son of a NBA Coach! Nice ride. (Just please keep it between the ditches Austin!!)

Native
10-15-2011, 09:14 PM
According the the Chronicle, JaQuel was there, but we couldn't spot him (I like visual confirmation before I chant...)

By the by, were you by any chance in the group right at center court? I was right in front of the "Coach K Court" logo...

Yes! I just realized that we were right next to each other. We had to show 'Sheed some love.

I was the guy in the white Irving jersey and the Duke cape.

dukebsbll14
10-15-2011, 09:50 PM
Yes! I just realized that we were right next to each other. We had to show 'Sheed some love.

I was the guy in the white Irving jersey and the Duke cape.

ha yeah. I was in the Nolan/Quinn jersey with the tie. A little disappointed we didn't do anything for JJ or G. I tried to get a "JJ Redick's dynamite!" going, but no one around me picked it up...too long ago for some of the newbies I guess. (In their defense, no one here was a student when JJ was here) Sigh.

Native
10-15-2011, 09:57 PM
ha yeah. I was in the Nolan/Quinn jersey with the tie. A little disappointed we didn't do anything for JJ or G. I tried to get a "JJ Redick's dynamite!" going, but no one around me picked it up...too long ago for some of the newbies I guess. (In their defense, no one here was a student when JJ was here) Sigh.

I hear ya, man. I've been going to games in Cameron for forever though... longer than most students — been pretty fortunate. We definitely need to coordinate our stuff this season man!

Jderf
10-15-2011, 10:00 PM
Yes! I just realized that we were right next to each other. We had to show 'Sheed some love.

Seeing "Sheed" used with positive connotations is going to take some getting used to.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 10:11 PM
ha yeah. I was in the nolan/quinn jersey with the tie. A little disappointed we didn't do anything for jj or g. I tried to get a "jj redick's dynamite!" going, but no one around me picked it up...too long ago for some of the newbies i guess. (in their defense, no one here was a student when jj was here) sigh.

g can fly

dukebsbll14
10-15-2011, 10:39 PM
g can fly

lol too long for me too


I hear ya, man. I've been going to games in Cameron for forever though... longer than most students — been pretty fortunate. We definitely need to coordinate our stuff this season man!

Since my sister got in (class of '09), I've been addicted to Duke. Unless somethings askew, you can find me somewhere between the Coach K Court logo and the line monitors. IMO, best spot in Cameron. Definitely hit me up for anything basketball related. I love Cameron and making our house a tough place to play in.

uh_no
10-15-2011, 10:43 PM
lol too long for me too



Is there any definitive list of player chants throughout the ages?

dukebsbll14
10-15-2011, 10:46 PM
Is there any definitive list of player chants throughout the ages?

not that I know of....weekend project for me? Sorry, physics.

Actually though, sounds like a good topic for a DBR thread.

Native
10-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Since my sister got in (class of '09), I've been addicted to Duke. Unless somethings askew, you can find me somewhere between the Coach K Court logo and the line monitors. IMO, best spot in Cameron. Definitely hit me up for anything basketball related. I love Cameron and making our house a tough place to play in.

Yeah, my grandpa's taught at the business school for 30+ years so I've had season tickets all my life in the upper deck. I've been to pretty much every home game for the past sixteen years or so. Right there with ya, Cameron's home for me and definitely ready to crank up the volume from the front row!

Kedsy
10-15-2011, 11:53 PM
I agree with you regarding the Freshman. I was pleasantly surprised with Cook last night. 3 or 4 of the Freshman will likely contribute this season against conference competition.

Well, the freshmen may be ready to contribute, but is it likely that 3 or 4 of them will contribute in ACC play? Three maybe, but I'd be shocked at four. Even three is tough to envision.

Statistically, the deepest K-coached team was the 1997-98 squad, which essentially had 10 guys average double-figure minutes, but once the calendar turned to January, that team never had more than 8 guys play double-figure minutes in a game where the final margin was 27 or less (and under 30 only happened the one time that it was 27 pts). Once the calendar hit February, the 1997-98 team never had more than 7 guys play double-figure minutes in any game where the final margin was less than 20 points.

If this team follows the same pattern, then we'll have 8 guys playing double-figure minutes in the 1st month of conference play and 7 guys doing so in the 2nd month and the tournaments. Here's my view of our rotation:

TOP SIX: Austin, Seth, Andre, Ryan, Miles, Mason

If we play a 9-man rotation in ACC play, then it's certainly possible that Quinn and Alex are two of the next three, giving us three frosh in the rotation, but I have to emphasize that would be a deeper rotation than K's deepest team ever, so I wouldn't call it likely. If we only play an 8-man rotation, then both guys after the top six must be freshmen, presumably Quinn and Alex, but that would mean both Tyler and Josh will be out of the rotation by league play. Possible? Sure, but again I wouldn't call it likely. If we drop to a 7-man rotation, as we did in 1997-98, then there's no way more than two members of that rotation will be freshmen, absent injury or other extraordinary circumstance.

Of course, if by "contribute," you mean play 3 to 6 minutes a game in league play, breaking into double-figure minutes in the 30-point blowouts, then forget what I've said above. I'm assuming you mean double-figure minutes, or something close to that, in meaningful situations.

dukeballboy88
10-16-2011, 12:15 AM
All I know is I had a great time and Seth can light it up. I love how we have guys now on the perimeter that dont settle for the 3. Austin has one of the quickest first steps ive seen and he goes to the rack hard. Seth from about 15ft is straight cash homey and he can get that shot all by himself. Quinn is a true point guard and it wouldnt surprise me at all if he starts midway throught the season.

Kedsy
10-16-2011, 12:23 AM
Quinn is a true point guard and it wouldnt surprise me at all if he starts midway throught the season.

Starts over whom?

(Because if Quinn starts then one of Austin, Seth, and Andre will not start.)

J4Kop99
10-16-2011, 12:28 AM
Raftery was in the house last night?

Some ONIONS and man-to-man to all.

Dukehky
10-16-2011, 02:00 AM
I really liked what I saw from Miles outside of the obvious wide open dunks created by QC and others. Did anybody catch those 2 lefty baby hooks? I
would love to see some kind of post ability outside of strong rebounding from the Plumlees. I expected a little more from Ryan, but seeing as he's a big, people have to give him the ball. I don't see AR being the player we all hope he can be until at least January because he seemed to be kind of a black hole when he got the rock. He needs to be more willing to pass and become a better passer in general, on a more positive note, I fully expected that buzzer beater he shot to go in, and I expect that they will. Dawkins' d has improved and as always, the kid can stroke. I honestly don't see Thornton holding on to his 7 spot over QC much longer, his quickness level was tremendously exposed and racked up a bunch of fouls while trying to compensate. I also don't see Hairston breaking into the rotation. Miles Mason and Ryan seem to have that pretty locked down. I appreciate his hustle but when the entire team is super jacked up when he made a baseline J, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. Of course I hope that I'm wrong, because the better they are, the more they contribute in practice, and the better team we become. I hope to see Murphy and silent G develop into college players, but they're not there yet, not to say they won't be before the season starts or by the time the bigger games start to come around. We need them to, athletic 3/4s are gonna be essential to making a push in both the ACC and NCAA tourny. Seth Curry is a boss, like what I saw from him as the pg. Ive said it before, not the best team we've ever had, but it seems like its going to be one of the more athletic and therefore exciting teams we've had in a pretty long time.

Greg_Newton
10-16-2011, 02:07 AM
TOP SIX: Austin, Seth, Andre, Ryan, Miles, Mason

If we play a 9-man rotation in ACC play, then it's certainly possible that Quinn and Alex are two of the next three, giving us three frosh in the rotation, but I have to emphasize that would be a deeper rotation than K's deepest team ever, so I wouldn't call it likely. If we only play an 8-man rotation, then both guys after the top six must be freshmen, presumably Quinn and Alex, but that would mean both Tyler and Josh will be out of the rotation by league play. Possible? Sure, but again I wouldn't call it likely. If we drop to a 7-man rotation, as we did in 1997-98, then there's no way more than two members of that rotation will be freshmen, absent injury or other extraordinary circumstance.

Of course, if by "contribute," you mean play 3 to 6 minutes a game in league play, breaking into double-figure minutes in the 30-point blowouts, then forget what I've said above. I'm assuming you mean double-figure minutes, or something close to that, in meaningful situations.

To me, we have two groups: The top 6 you referenced, and Thornton, Murphy and Cook.

Thornton got plenty of burn last year, so I assume he won't be frozen out. The staff is very high on Murphy - he was pushing Dre for the starting spot early on - and he always seems to have a net positive effect on the court, so I think he'll be in the rotation. Quinn's kind of the wild card, to me... I certainly don't think he starts, but he certainly looks ready to play. History would dictate that he'd get frozen out by the numbers game, but if he's good enough...

Hairston and Gbinije are guys that could contribute if we lacked depth, but I just don't think they're good enough to displace any of the other nine's minutes.

DukeWarhead
10-16-2011, 02:37 AM
Been scoping the web to get info on what the other big celebrations were like. UNC, UK, etc. Anymore banana suits or stupid dance routines? Recruit reactions? I realize it's totally inconsequential but for some reason I'm extremely curious.

Faison1
10-16-2011, 08:40 AM
I've seen the "Start Quinn" subject in several threads both here and on other sites. It's nice to hear he had such a good game, but seriously, we don't have a Larry Drew type problem, so why start this ridiculousness so early in the season after just one intrasquad game?

If we follow along with the request, and start Quinn, who do you sit? Curry and Rivers seem like they are automatic, which leaves Dawkins. If we sit Dawkins, then you have to move Rivers over to SF, and I don't think anyone expects him to either accept, or have the ability to guard other 3's. The guy weighs 200, 205 maybe. You want him to try to control small forwards that typically outweigh him by a minimum 20 pounds? Especially when we're up against some pretty good small forwards this year?

OSU's Deshaun Thomas is listed at 6'6 230. Harrison Barnes is 6'8 220. I don't know about Austin's attitude, but I'm pretty sure he didn't come to Duke to play small forward. K could convince him to sacrifice for the team if there was a glaring problem, but we don't have one. Dawkins, Murphy, and Gbinije are all more than capable to play the position.

If Cook's knee holds up, I bet he gets about 10-15 mins a game, maybe less. In 1997/1998 William Avery averaged 19 mins as a frosh. Wojo was the starter. Avery was much, much more skilled than Wojo, but Wojo had a big advantage in experience. Having seen Cook play just a little, I still feel comfortable saying he's no Will Avery.

Faison1
10-16-2011, 09:07 AM
Actually, Austin is listed at 185. My bad.

uh_no
10-16-2011, 10:21 AM
Been scoping the web to get info on what the other big celebrations were like. UNC, UK, etc. Anymore banana suits or stupid dance routines? Recruit reactions? I realize it's totally inconsequential but for some reason I'm extremely curious.

UNC men did a dance routine with the UNC dance team
Calipari gave some stupid speech about how the time for expectation wasover and it was time to bring glory home
Hakim and melo were at syracuse, and I believe played in the scimmage
self came out in leather on a motorcycle
Drummond had a pretty good between the legs dunk

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7103558/midnight-madness-festivities-kick-start-new-season-college-basketball-teams

Faison1
10-16-2011, 10:39 AM
Check out Seth's interview on the right hand side. He sounds like Tone Loc. For a seond there, I thought he was going to break out in "Funky Cold Medina":

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205316855&DB_OEM_ID=4200

Kedsy
10-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Actually, Austin is listed at 185. My bad.

According to GoDuke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/roster.php?season=2011-12), Austin is listed at 6'4", 200. The exact same as Andre. Though personally, I think Andre looks a little taller and a lot heavier.

As far as whether Austin would be willing to play the 3, other than who he defends I don't think it would make any difference at all for his game. His offensive game wouldn't change even a little bit with the change in position. So I don't imagine he would care, unless the banging with bigger players takes too big a toll physically. Also, while Barnes and Thomas may be a lot bigger than Austin (and Andre), Most college SFs are only a little bigger than Austin.

Having said all that, I completely agree with you that Andre will start over Quinn. I agree with you that Quinn is unlikely to average more than 10 to 15 mpg his freshman season, and that's only if he shows he's ready and beats out Tyler for the 7th man in the rotation. My current expectation is that Tyler and Quinn will combine for between 15 and 25 minutes a game, probably toward the lower end of that range, at least once the games start counting.

uh_no
10-16-2011, 11:48 AM
According to GoDuke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/roster.php?season=2011-12), Austin is listed at 6'4", 200. The exact same as Andre. Though personally, I think Andre looks a little taller and a lot heavier.

As far as whether Austin would be willing to play the 3, other than who he defends I don't think it would make any difference at all for his game. His offensive game wouldn't change even a little bit with the change in position. So I don't imagine he would care, unless the banging with bigger players takes too big a toll physically. Also, while Barnes and Thomas may be a lot bigger than Austin (and Andre), Most college SFs are only a little bigger than Austin.

Having said all that, I completely agree with you that Andre will start over Quinn. I agree with you that Quinn is unlikely to average more than 10 to 15 mpg his freshman season, and that's only if he shows he's ready and beats out Tyler for the 7th man in the rotation. My current expectation is that Tyler and Quinn will combine for between 15 and 25 minutes a game, probably toward the lower end of that range, at least once the games start counting.

I think you're spot on. I think in the offense we are likely to run this year, there will be no way to say who is playing 1,2 or 3. We'll just have seth andre and austin out there doing there thing. Now, obviosuly one of them has to bring the ball up, but the position number, in this case is largely arbitrary, depending mostly on who the other team decides to use to guard who. Now on defense, obviously it makes a big difference who guards what position, and I think how we choose to defend will largely depend on matchups.

I don't think there's a kangaroo's chance in antarctica that the starters in the backcourt are not andre, seth, and austin. Could that change as the year goes on? yeah maybe....I often like the play of bringing one of your stars off the bench like that.....but even if that happened, i would bet a good bit that those three ended up with a majority of the minutes

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-16-2011, 11:51 AM
UNC men did a dance routine with the UNC dance team
Calipari gave some stupid speech about how the time for expectation wasover and it was time to bring glory home
Hakim and melo were at syracuse, and I believe played in the scimmage
self came out in leather on a motorcycle
Drummond had a pretty good between the legs dunk

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7103558/midnight-madness-festivities-kick-start-new-season-college-basketball-teams

Here's all you need to know...

2097

2098

Faison1
10-16-2011, 12:44 PM
According to GoDuke.com (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/seasons/roster.php?season=2011-12), Austin is listed at 6'4", 200. The exact same as Andre. Though personally, I think Andre looks a little taller and a lot heavier.

Yep, you're right. Although, depending on where you look, I think he's listed anywhere from 185 - 205. After my original post where I listed him at 200 lbs off of memory, I went back to check someplace which listed him at 185.

Regardless, as you mention, he doesn't look as big as Dre. And as we've all heard, defense is an area he needs to work on. Dre should be more prepared to take on athletic wings (with emphasis on SHOULD).

Maybe if Dre doesn't perform during league play, I could see a change, but I'm really, really hoping that won't be the case.

Starting five of Curry, Rivers, Dre, Kelly, and Miles is a team I can get emotionally invested in. With the exception of Rivers, they've all bided their time for their moment to shine. I'm cheering hard, not only for the team's success, but also for their individual accomplishments.

jimsumner
10-16-2011, 02:21 PM
Yep, you're right. Although, depending on where you look, I think he's listed anywhere from 185 - 205. After my original post where I listed him at 200 lbs off of memory, I went back to check someplace which listed him at 185.

Regardless, as you mention, he doesn't look as big as Dre. And as we've all heard, defense is an area he needs to work on. Dre should be more prepared to take on athletic wings (with emphasis on SHOULD).

Maybe if Dre doesn't perform during league play, I could see a change, but I'm really, really hoping that won't be the case.

Starting five of Curry, Rivers, Dre, Kelly, and Miles is a team I can get emotionally invested in. With the exception of Rivers, they've all bided their time for their moment to shine. I'm cheering hard, not only for the team's success, but also for their individual accomplishments.

Even before CTC, K said that Curry would spend some time at the 2, with either Cook or Thornton at the point. But that's a long way from envisioning a starting lineup with Curry at the 2 and Rivers at the 3.

There's a big difference between Dawkins at the 3 and Rivers at the 3. Dawkins has defended the 3 at the college level for two seasons, including an entire season guarding Kyle Singler in practice. I suspect Rivers hasn't spent much time guarding 6-8, 220-pounders. Dawkins has.

That said, Dawkins has to play better than he did Friday night. When he was sharing the court with some combination of Scheyer, Singler, Smith and Irving, Dawkins could be content to spot up, spread the floor and be the beneficiary of opposing D's attention to the studs.

Now, he needs to be a stud. He has to figure out ways to help the team other than jacking up 3s. I certainly think it's doable. But it seems like he still thinks of himself as a complementary player. Needs to start asserting himself.

TonyWR
10-16-2011, 02:35 PM
Here's all you need to know...

2097

2098

Tarholes, I cant stop laughing. All they need now is Doh-erty and the clown show would be complete!

loldevilz
10-16-2011, 03:05 PM
Wow did Seth Curry play well! If any of y'all still think that Cook or Thornton will be out point guard rewatch Curry's performance. He absolutely took over that game. The white team had Kelly, Rivers and Miles, but Curry beat them all. He scored in transition, he scored from 3, he got to the line, he forced turnovers, he distributed the ball. His handle is seriously underestimated. The crossover he had against Thornton was ridiculous. When he gets in the lane, which is able to do surprisingly easily, he gets his floater off before the bigs even jump. If Curry does not play 35 minutes a game this year I will be very surprised.

Also, Josh Hairston had a really good game but no one really noticed. He took a few really key charges. He had a really nice tip in, and showed a nice midrange game. He has a pretty wide load so he can move people around. He should get some playing time this year because he brings a lot to the table.

I was a bit disappointed in Murphy and Gbinije. I would still like to see one of them really push Dawkins for the starting spot, but its only October, so no worries.

Devilsfan
10-16-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't agree with this but had to chuckle when a local call in sports radio program had someone (a wolfpack fan) call and refer to this year's team as "Slow White and the 7 Plumlees". I guess if we want to be number 1 we have to take the ribbing that comes from the envious fans of other teams.

Kedsy
10-16-2011, 03:30 PM
I was a bit disappointed in Murphy and Gbinije. I would still like to see one of them really push Dawkins for the starting spot, but its only October, so no worries.

Stranger things have happened, I suppose, but I'll be shocked if either Alex or Mike starts this year, assuming no major injuries or other catastrophes. Frankly, I'll be surprised if both of them are even in the rotation once January rolls around. I'm hoping that one of them (I assume Alex at this point) can play 10 minutes a game during the ACC season and beyond, but that's not close to a lock. Whichever of the two loses out the competition for the last spot in the rotation will probably only play mop-up minutes.

By next year, I hope and expect both of them will be solid contributors.

uh_no
10-16-2011, 03:32 PM
Wow did Seth Curry play well! If any of y'all still think that Cook or Thornton will be out point guard rewatch Curry's performance. He absolutely took over that game. The white team had Kelly, Rivers and Miles, but Curry beat them all. He scored in transition, he scored from 3, he got to the line, he forced turnovers, he distributed the ball. His handle is seriously underestimated. The crossover he had against Thornton was ridiculous. When he gets in the lane, which is able to do surprisingly easily, he gets his floater off before the bigs even jump. If Curry does not play 35 minutes a game this year I will be very surprised.

Also, Josh Hairston had a really good game but no one really noticed. He took a few really key charges. He had a really nice tip in, and showed a nice midrange game. He has a pretty wide load so he can move people around. He should get some playing time this year because he brings a lot to the table.

I was a bit disappointed in Murphy and Gbinije. I would still like to see one of them really push Dawkins for the starting spot, but its only October, so no worries.

I do agree that curry played well, but I think we need to temper our expectations of his year based on a scrimmage against other duke guys. The biggest thing is that half the people he'll be playing with were playing on the other team. Defense isn't exactly in tip top shape this early in the season, and his role may change when he is on a team with austin and dre, instead of flying solo. If I recall, Taylor king had a great B+W when he was here....and we know how that turned out when he got into real games. (not that there's anything really in common with seth an TK....obviously....just pointing out that B+W performaces are not always indicative of how the season will go. It works the other way too....i recall in 2009 first play, Jon threw a pass to zoubek and it bounced off his face....little did we know at the time....

airowe
10-16-2011, 03:37 PM
Stranger things have happened, I suppose, but I'll be shocked if either Alex or Mike starts this year, assuming no major injuries or other catastrophes. Frankly, I'll be surprised if both of them are even in the rotation once January rolls around. I'm hoping that one of them (I assume Alex at this point) can play 10 minutes a game during the ACC season and beyond, but that's not close to a lock. Whichever of the two loses out the competition for the last spot in the rotation will probably only play mop-up minutes.

By next year, I hope and expect both of them will be solid contributors.

From everything I've heard this summer and up to today, Alex has been in an ongoing battle for the starting small forward spot since he arrived on campus.

jimsumner
10-16-2011, 04:13 PM
From everything I've heard this summer and up to today, Alex has been in an ongoing battle for the starting small forward spot since he arrived on campus.

FWIW, K went out of his way to praise Murphy after the CTC scrimmage.

Read into that what you will.

Kedsy
10-16-2011, 06:10 PM
From everything I've heard this summer and up to today, Alex has been in an ongoing battle for the starting small forward spot since he arrived on campus.

That's surprising to me. It's hard for me to imagine Andre not having a very strong inside track for that job.

uh_no
10-16-2011, 06:21 PM
That's surprising to me. It's hard for me to imagine Andre not having a very strong inside track for that job.

While this is probably true, if alex is a beast, plays tough defense, and is not a liability on offense, I can envision him getting the nod while dre fights with seth and andre for minutes at the 1 and 2, and splits time at the 3.

DukieTiger
10-16-2011, 06:33 PM
I don't agree with this but had to chuckle when a local call in sports radio program had someone (a wolfpack fan) call and refer to this year's team as "Slow White and the 7 Plumlees". I guess if we want to be number 1 we have to take the ribbing that comes from the envious fans of other teams.

Ask em what they think of this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFyjE5SzLDs

jimsumner
10-16-2011, 06:34 PM
That's surprising to me. It's hard for me to imagine Andre not having a very strong inside track for that job.

I suspect he does. But he is a bit undersized for the role. Duke has made this sort of thing work in the past, as recently as 2004, when Duhon, Ewing and Redick started on the perimeter. Dawkins does have some experience playing the 3. If he rebounds and defends well, he likely starts. But Murphy is a good 4 inches taller and that could dictate PT down the line if Dawkins has trouble guarding bigger wings.

Dawkins could make an effective sixth man, able to sub for a lot of people. Think David Henderson, c. 1984 and 1985, or Jon Scheyer, as a sophomore in 2008. Both went from freshmen starter to sophomore sixth men and both embraced the opportunity.

Then again, how likely is K to start two freshmen, while bringing an experienced junior off the bench?

But there should be some competition in practice.

OldPhiKap
10-16-2011, 08:15 PM
I suspect he does. But he is a bit undersized for the role. Duke has made this sort of thing work in the past, as recently as 2004, when Duhon, Ewing and Redick started on the perimeter. Dawkins does have some experience playing the 3. If he rebounds and defends well, he likely starts. But Murphy is a good 4 inches taller and that could dictate PT down the line if Dawkins has trouble guarding bigger wings.

Dawkins could make an effective sixth man, able to sub for a lot of people. Think David Henderson, c. 1984 and 1985, or Jon Scheyer, as a sophomore in 2008. Both went from freshmen starter to sophomore sixth men and both embraced the opportunity.

Then again, how likely is K to start two freshmen, while bringing an experienced junior off the bench?

But there should be some competition in practice.

. . . and Hendu '86 when Billy King grabbed a lot of minutes as the stopper along with JD, Tommy, Jay and Mark "still should retire his number" Alarie.

But as you say, it will be determined based on practice and the match-ups.



(P.S. Clicked on your article that I have on my favorites about the '86 team yesterday by accident -- what a great article! Jim, you've covered my absolutely favorite team [and my sophomore year] in a wonderful fashion).

summerwind03
10-16-2011, 08:25 PM
.
(P.S. Clicked on your article that I have on my favorites about the '86 team yesterday by accident -- what a great article! Jim, you've covered my absolutely favorite team [and my sophomore year] in a wonderful fashion).

Why don't you link to it? I'd enjoy reading it. Thanks.

OldPhiKap
10-16-2011, 08:33 PM
Why don't you link to it? I'd enjoy reading it. Thanks.

Happy to oblige, mods please delete (and my apologies) if it violates some sort of inter-code that I don't know about:

http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/dukemag/issues/010206/eightysixers1.html

The absolute foundation of what we enjoy today. And extremely well-described by Jim. E-hats off. OPK

Newton_14
10-16-2011, 08:53 PM
Well, the freshmen may be ready to contribute, but is it likely that 3 or 4 of them will contribute in ACC play? Three maybe, but I'd be shocked at four. Even three is tough to envision.

Statistically, the deepest K-coached team was the 1997-98 squad, which essentially had 10 guys average double-figure minutes, but once the calendar turned to January, that team never had more than 8 guys play double-figure minutes in a game where the final margin was 27 or less (and under 30 only happened the one time that it was 27 pts). Once the calendar hit February, the 1997-98 team never had more than 7 guys play double-figure minutes in any game where the final margin was less than 20 points.

If this team follows the same pattern, then we'll have 8 guys playing double-figure minutes in the 1st month of conference play and 7 guys doing so in the 2nd month and the tournaments. Here's my view of our rotation:

TOP SIX: Austin, Seth, Andre, Ryan, Miles, Mason

If we play a 9-man rotation in ACC play, then it's certainly possible that Quinn and Alex are two of the next three, giving us three frosh in the rotation, but I have to emphasize that would be a deeper rotation than K's deepest team ever, so I wouldn't call it likely. If we only play an 8-man rotation, then both guys after the top six must be freshmen, presumably Quinn and Alex, but that would mean both Tyler and Josh will be out of the rotation by league play. Possible? Sure, but again I wouldn't call it likely. If we drop to a 7-man rotation, as we did in 1997-98, then there's no way more than two members of that rotation will be freshmen, absent injury or other extraordinary circumstance.

Of course, if by "contribute," you mean play 3 to 6 minutes a game in league play, breaking into double-figure minutes in the 30-point blowouts, then forget what I've said above. I'm assuming you mean double-figure minutes, or something close to that, in meaningful situations.

By "contribute", I meant appearing in all games for at least a few minutes, vs racking up multiple DNP's in a row. Austin is a given, and Murphy, based on what we saw in China, and the reports from those with contacts on the staff, is likely to play in most every game. I was a bit surprised to see Airowe's comments that Murphy has been challenging hard for a starting spot. I am basing that more on my confidence and expectations for a Jr Dawkins, than a lack of faith in Alex. So it looks like 2 of the freshman are destined to be in the rotation.

The wildcards are Cook and Gbinije. For now, the nod goes to Cook in terms of chances to crack the rotation and play maybe 10 to 12 mpg vs Gbinije's chances. Both are facing long odds due to upperclassmen in front of them. Despite Tyler's offensive shortcomings, he proved last year he could be effective (and disruptive) on defense, and can run the team fairly well. It will be hard to push Tyler out of the rotation. On the other hand, Cook has really good talent, and brings a dimension to the team that no one else really has with his ball handling, quickness, and ability to drive and dish. With Gbinije, I agree he is facing long odds, based on where he is at with his stage of development, and how many guys he has in front of him.

Defense will go a long way in helping sort these things out of course, in all the various battles for PT. For example, defense and rebounding may be Mason's ticket back into the starting lineup should Kelly or Miles have issues in those 2 area's.

It is going to be a really interesting year. I agree with the core guys you listed in your top 6, but I hope 3 or 4 of the other guys play well enough that K is comfortable using them a lot, and going a bit deeper than normal in the rotation. Odds are against it based on history, and 98 is probably a great example of what to possibly expect for this year. K had more depth than normal and utilized it pretty effectively, even though he did pare it down late in the season. I could see this season following a similar pattern.

This is going to be a fun year watching this team develop. Which guys move up from role players to stars, and how many guys can find a role and stay in the rotation.

Less than 2 weeks now until the first exhibition game! Hard to believe the season is upon us!

Go Duke!

ACCBBallFan
10-16-2011, 09:05 PM
Even before CTC, K said that Curry would spend some time at the 2, with either Cook or Thornton at the point. But that's a long way from envisioning a starting lineup with Curry at the 2 and Rivers at the 3.

There's a big difference between Dawkins at the 3 and Rivers at the 3. Dawkins has defended the 3 at the college level for two seasons, including an entire season guarding Kyle Singler in practice. I suspect Rivers hasn't spent much time guarding 6-8, 220-pounders. Dawkins has.

That said, Dawkins has to play better than he did Friday night. When he was sharing the court with some combination of Scheyer, Singler, Smith and Irving, Dawkins could be content to spot up, spread the floor and be the beneficiary of opposing D's attention to the studs.

Now, he needs to be a stud. He has to figure out ways to help the team other than jacking up 3s. I certainly think it's doable. But it seems like he still thinks of himself as a complementary player. Needs to start asserting himself.
Jim, I am guessing that since Dre did not bother to try and defend his two time dunk championship (one a tie) that he has some minor undisclosed injury, not enough to stop him from being on floor 24 minutes, but maybe why he deferred so much to Seth. He also only shot 1-7 which is unusual for him.

In the Duke offensive scheme, the 2-3 are fairly interchangeable. On offense I like to think of Austin as the SF so that when he takes it to the rack, Seth and Dre are both back in case Rivers turns it over or misses. That's the only good thing about Dre not moving more without the ball. Last year he showed some signs of a mid range game and a floater when he had the ball, no longer being just a spot up 3 point shooter.

Both Dre and Austin need to contnue to work on moving without the ball.

With respect to rebounds, Austin had 5 in 24 minutes while Dre, Alex and Mike each had 1 for a combined 3 in 64 minutes. In fairness, Dre was playing SG the whole scrimmage, Alex and Mike were always at SF for a total of 40 miinutes and Rivers alternated 16 minutes at SG when Gbinije was in game and 8 minutes at SF when Quinn and Tyler were both in and Mike was resting.

Even in HS, Austin seemed to be able to rebound on both ends of the floor, partially because his Winter Park and AAU teams were so small. Conversely now he needs to figure out how to leverage the Plumlees' size when he drives and has an open alley oop.

As you say, on defense, Dre has some valuable experience vying against Singler past two years. Dre obviously has leaping ability but does not seem to aggressively pursue rebounds, which of course is hard to do when hanging out beyond the 3 point line on offensive end. He needs to snag more defensive boards though or at least box out his man from getting any rebounds.

dcar1985
10-16-2011, 09:14 PM
I definitely respect the info from those inside the situation that are saying Murphy is pushing Dre for the starting spot at the 3 spot....but outside of that looking in I honestly don't see what anyone else is seeing to think the same...I didn't think Murphy looked particularly good in China, he played ok for a freshmen getting his first college ball action. I didn't think he did anything during the B v. W game to warrant any consideration as a starter either. I think he's going to be a heck of a player for Duke eventually but it seems like people are trying to rush the whole Singler 2.0 thing

Gbinije has a lot of potential but is playing super nervous, once he learns to relax he'll be fine...he didn't play well during the China trip, thought he had a few nice plays in the B v. W game especially the heads up behind the back pass to Miles...I like his upside more than Murphys, but he definitely needs to break out of this shy nervous shell I think its affecting his game.

Kedsy
10-16-2011, 10:09 PM
Dawkins could make an effective sixth man, able to sub for a lot of people. Think David Henderson, c. 1984 and 1985, or Jon Scheyer, as a sophomore in 2008. Both went from freshmen starter to sophomore sixth men and both embraced the opportunity.

Except the sixth man on this team will be whichever big (Mason, Miles, Ryan) isn't starting. So if Andre doesn't start he'd be the seventh man. Now, that might seem like semantics, but it doesn't feel like it to me.

I agree that against big SFs like Harrison Barnes, if Andre can't defend him than Alex might need to play more minutes in that particular game, but I'll still be very surprised if Andre doesn't start almost every game (I can also see him not starting in one or two games, to light a fire under him if he goes into one of his pouty funks, but realistically no more than that).

UrinalCake
10-16-2011, 10:36 PM
I enjoyed Quinn's entrance, he and Rivers were the only ones that showed much personality. Murphy and Gbinije looked pretty stiff. I could see Quinn eventually taking over Nolan's role as vocal leader and class clown.

Kedsy
10-16-2011, 10:37 PM
By "contribute", I meant appearing in all games for at least a few minutes, vs racking up multiple DNP's in a row.

Well, if that's your definition, it's a lot harder to dispute it. I assume Alex will play at least a few minutes in almost every game, and if Quinn is ready that would make three freshmen. If you stretch the definition to double-figure minutes, it becomes less likely. Based on math and history, I will be surprised if more than 8 guys get double-figure minutes in any contested game after January 1. By February 1, it could stay at 8, but my guess is in a close game we'll only see 7 guys get double-figure minutes. If 6 of those guys are Mason, Miles, Ryan, Austin, Seth, and Andre, then that leaves us with Alex, Quinn, Tyler, and Josh (and maybe Mike) vying for two spots, possibly just one.

Having said that, I could see all four (maybe five but I sincerely doubt it) getting 5 or more mpg, but if that happens then the 7th and 8th men would only be playing 8 or 10 minutes.

My math goes like this: by February, in close games, Seth, Austin, and Andre will likely be combining for 90 to 95 minutes. Miles, Mason, and Ryan will likely be combining for 70 to 75 minutes. Giving us 5 to 10 minutes available at PF, and 25 to 30 minutes available at PG/wing. If Josh takes 5 mpg at PF, and whichever of Tyler/Quinn loses the competition for backup PG plays 5 minutes at PG, then if we're at the low end of the range of available minutes it's 10 mpg apiece for the backup PG and the backup SF, and if we're at the high end it's 15 mpg apiece (although that would involve 5 mpg for Alex at PF). If Alex (assuming he's the backup SF, or the starter, I suppose) or Quinn (assuming he's the backup PG) play more than 10 (or 15 in the high end example) than the other will have to play less. If Tyler or Josh plays more than five minutes, it would probably come out of Quinn's or Alex's share.


While this is probably true, if alex is a beast, plays tough defense, and is not a liability on offense, I can envision him getting the nod while dre fights with seth and andre for minutes at the 1 and 2, and splits time at the 3.

Well, based on what we saw in China and what I've heard about Blue/White, Alex has a ways to go before he fits your description. Though apparently he's showing more than that in practice (based on K's comments and airowe's reports), so maybe it's not so far as it appears to this outsider.

COYS
10-17-2011, 12:02 AM
I watched the game twice because 24 minutes of game action just isn't enough!

The two standouts were obviously Seth and Miles. They both had great games and showed significant improvement. Personally, I'm not surprised about Seth looking so much better. While it's true he's not a "true" point guard, he is used to having the ball in his hands like he did in high school and during his frosh year at Liberty. Now that he's had his redshirt year and last year to adjust to ACC speed and improve his quickness and handle, he looks completely comfortable handling the ball. He even made the notoriously pesky defender Tyler Thornton look bad on multiple occasions. He also valued the basketball. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Seth had a better year last season than his raw numbers would indicate (see his efficiency stats at www.kenpom.com) and, in a way reminiscent of Jon Scheyer, will make good things happen for the offense night in and night out. As for Miles, he was active and assertive on both sides of the ball. Like Jim Sumner, I loved the Ryan/Miles high-low game. Ryan throws excellent entry passes into the post and, with his outside shooting ability, really opens up space for Miles to operate in the post. The White Team didn't use that enough, in my opinion.

As for the freshmen, Austin showed both sides of himself. On the one hand, he can be unstoppable when his three point shot is falling (his range is ridiculous). On the other hand, he can bog down the offense and settle for too many jumpers after pounding the ball into the hardwoods for too long. He's used to having the ball in his hands and starting his scoring moves off the dribble from beyond the three point line. He'll have plenty of opportunities to do that, but I'd like to see him get the ball inside the arc in catch and shoot situations or at least closer to the basket so he can make a faster scoring move. There will be ups and downs for Austin at first, but with Seth as the rock of the offense, Austin won't have to shoulder the entire scoring burden and will be able to learn by trial by fire. My prediction is that by February, Seth and Austin will be the most fearsome back court duo in the nation. Count me as one impressed by Alex. His offense has a ways to go, but he showed surprising bounce as an athlete on defense and generally played excellently on the defensive end the entire game. People forget he was a top 10/15 recruit in the 2012 class with NBA potential. With his physical tools, skill set and instincts, I see why K has been indicating that there might be a battle between him and Andre for minutes at the three. Also, Quinn Cook is another guy who fell in the rankings largely due to playing hurt most of his senior year. Now that he's healthy, his quickness, speed, and handle really stand out. He has a gear that no one else on the team has. No predictions from me regarding minutes, but the speed Quinn can provide may be very important to Duke in some of the games this season. Marshall and Mike G have obvious potential as well. If we do have an 8 man rotation this season, the battle for the last spot will be tough as this crop of freshmen will push the veterans for sure.

Overall, I'm really excited about this team. Seth has been seriously overlooked by the national media. I predict he'll play himself onto the Wooden Watch List quickly. We've got excellent depth at all positions even if we lack experience in some cases. We've got a healthy dose of NBA talent on the roster, veteran leadership in Miles, Ryan, Mason, and Seth, and a group of freshmen that bring skills that the veterans don't have (Quinn's speed, Alex and Mike G's length at the three, etc.). We've got a tough schedule and we're replacing some of Duke's finest players in Nolan and Kyle (and Kyrie). However, I believe this year will be more similar to 2003 than 2007. In 2003, Boozer, Dunleavy and JWill all left for the pros leaving Chris Duhon and Dahntay Jones as the veterans to play alongside a talented freshman class that included JJ Redick and Shelden Williams. That team narrowly lost to the eventual National Runner up Kansas Jayhawks in the Sweet 16 after gelling in the second half of the season and winning the ACC. I still think that team deserved a 2 seed, which may have allowed them to go even deeper into the tournament. In some ways, this year's team didn't even lose as much as that team did. Seth, Miles, Mason, Andre and Ryan were regulars the previous year who have all improved and can lead the team this year. JJ, Shelden, Shav, and Dockery were all freshman and the first three played significant minutes. Outside of Austin, it is doubtful that this year's freshman will have to shoulder the same burden even though the talent of the class stacks up nicely with the 2003 freshmen. Given that the competition in college basketball isn't as tough as it was then, I can see the 2011-2012 Blue Devils putting it all together and making a serious run in March. It won't be a smooth ride, but this team can definitely get to the top. I'm excited.

Dukeface88
10-17-2011, 01:46 AM
To me, the question of who starts now is less important than the question of who will be starting after the annual mid-season lineup change.

Dr. Rosenrosen
10-17-2011, 09:19 AM
To me, the question of who starts now is less important than the question of who will be starting after the annual mid-season lineup change.

I'm far less worried about who starts (at any point in the season) and much more interested in who is on the floor at the end of tight games. Really, that's what matters... as Jon Scheyer reminded us all.

jimsumner
10-17-2011, 09:33 AM
RE: Dawkins.

Sometimes at Duke, the 2 and the 3 are interchangeable. Sometimes, they aren't. When Singler was playing the 3 and Curry the 2, for example, only one of these guys was a threat to post up and we all know which one. And the other team does get the ball about half the time. Inconvenient, I realize but it's in the rules. What can you do? But having a 6-4 guy guard a 6-8 guy on the blocks can be disadvantageous.

Dawkins is a frustrating, fascinating player. He has the skill set and the athleticism to be a big-time player, at least as good as Phil Henderson or Thomas Hill, maybe better. At the aesthetic level, I'm not sure I've ever seen a prettier shot.

But you don't get style points. It goes in or it doesn't. His seem to go in.

But remember how hard guys like Collins, Langdon and Redick worked to get open, coming off screens, fighting off defenders? After a game, Redick looked like he had gone 10 rounds with a bear, scratches and welts and bruises all over his body. Langdon would have to have his shoulders reattached after games. These guys wanted the ball, indeed demanded the ball, and were willing to work overtime to earn the ball.

I haven't seen that with Dawkins, not consistently at least. Last year, Duke needed him to play off Singler, Smith, Irving. But even then, he would sometimes just disappear. This year, Duke needs him to be a primary option on offense, not a secondary one.

I didn't see that Friday. He did hit one early jumper with a hand in his face but then he reverted to earlier form, strangely passive.

I really want Dre to suceed. He's an engaging guy, popular with his teammates and the fans. But sometimes he has to have a fire lit under him. That just seems to be his personality and Duke has had more than its share of silent assasins. But a confident, assertive Andre Dawkins could go a long way towards turning Duke into the kind of team we've come to expect. The opportunity is right in front of him. Will he grab it?

superdave
10-17-2011, 09:57 AM
Dawkins would appear to be ready to make a pretty significant statistical leap this year. Certainly Mason and Ryan are prime candidates for such a leap as well.

Look at Nolan's minutes and ppg (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=2473) for each year: 14.7 to 21.6 to 35.5 for minutes, and 5.9 to 8.4 to 17.6 in points. I'd characterize that as a pretty steady progression from rotation guy to really good over three years.

Recruits who are top 10 are typically able to step right in and put up solid stats. But the next tier of guys (15-30 or so) are usually good rotation players who improve a lot each year but also gain more opportunities as upper classmen graduate and move on. Nolan took off as he got more minutes and more shots with Henderson and Paulus leaving the backcourt.

Another good guy to look at in this regard is Thomas Hill (http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/players/statlines.php?playerid=182): 12.3 to 23.3 to 30.6 in minutes from years 1 to 3; 3.4 to 11.5 to 14.6 in points. Hill both improved as a player and also got more opportunities as Billy McCaffrey and Phil Henderson left. Hill was the 2nd leading scorer on the 1992 team!

If Dawkins is able to follow the trajectory of either Nolan or Thomas, we will be pleased. If each of Andre, Mason and Ryan make similar, significant leaps, we'll be competing for big things.

Kyle and Nolan played a combined 1,545 minutes and took a combined 1,078 field goal attempts last year (about half of the team's attempts). That's a lot of minutes and shots free for the taking. We'll see who wants them the most!

OldPhiKap
10-17-2011, 10:10 AM
RE: Dawkins.

Sometimes at Duke, the 2 and the 3 are interchangeable. Sometimes, they aren't. When Singler was playing the 3 and Curry the 2, for example, only one of these guys was a threat to post up and we all know which one. And the other team does get the ball about half the time. Inconvenient, I realize but it's in the rules. What can you do? But having a 6-4 guy guard a 6-8 guy on the blocks can be disadvantageous.

Dawkins is a frustrating, fascinating player. He has the skill set and the athleticism to be a big-time player, at least as good as Phil Henderson or Thomas Hill, maybe better. At the aesthetic level, I'm not sure I've ever seen a prettier shot.

But you don't get style points. It goes in or it doesn't. His seem to go in.

But remember how hard guys like Collins, Langdon and Redick worked to get open, coming off screens, fighting off defenders? After a game, Redick looked like he had gone 10 rounds with a bear, scratches and welts and bruises all over his body. Langdon would have to have his shoulders reattached after games. These guys wanted the ball, indeed demanded the ball, and were willing to work overtime to earn the ball.

I haven't seen that with Dawkins, not consistently at least. Last year, Duke needed him to play off Singler, Smith, Irving. But even then, he would sometimes just disappear. This year, Duke needs him to be a primary option on offense, not a secondary one.

I didn't see that Friday. He did hit one early jumper with a hand in his face but then he reverted to earlier form, strangely passive.

I really want Dre to suceed. He's an engaging guy, popular with his teammates and the fans. But sometimes he has to have a fire lit under him. That just seems to be his personality and Duke has had more than its share of silent assasins. But a confident, assertive Andre Dawkins could go a long way towards turning Duke into the kind of team we've come to expect. The opportunity is right in front of him. Will he grab it?

Maybe he needs to release his "inner Chi" like Battier did after watching a kung-fu movie. You never know what pushes the hungry button -- other than sitting on the bench, which works with some and is counterproductive with some as a motivational tool.



Dre can be a very important part of the puzzle this year, but he has to get comfortable with that role and get the hunger. It is hard to balance being a good team player and being a green-light take over guy. Grant went through that, too.

Here's hoping.

CDu
10-17-2011, 10:14 AM
Except the sixth man on this team will be whichever big (Mason, Miles, Ryan) isn't starting. So if Andre doesn't start he'd be the seventh man. Now, that might seem like semantics, but it doesn't feel like it to me.

I think it really would be semantics. If Dawkins didn't start, I'd still expect him to get 20+ mpg as the first "small" off the bench. There'd be two "sixth men", because the first big off the bench would also probably get 20+ mpg. The two would often come in at the same time. I'd only differentiate between the 6th man and 7th man in a scenario where the differences in minutes between the two are substantial.

As for Dawkins' play, I'm still waiting to see him show the expanded skill set beyond the 3 point shot. He's shown an occasional instance of attacking off the dribble, but for the most part he's been content to just fire 3s. If he's to become a more consistent presence/force on offense, he's going to have to show more ability to attack off the dribble, and he's going to have to show more work off the ball to get open shots. Hopefully he's able to do that this year.

Bluealum
10-17-2011, 10:16 AM
RE: Dawkins.

Sometimes at Duke, the 2 and the 3 are interchangeable. Sometimes, they aren't. When Singler was playing the 3 and Curry the 2, for example, only one of these guys was a threat to post up and we all know which one. And the other team does get the ball about half the time. Inconvenient, I realize but it's in the rules. What can you do? But having a 6-4 guy guard a 6-8 guy on the blocks can be disadvantageous.

Dawkins is a frustrating, fascinating player. He has the skill set and the athleticism to be a big-time player, at least as good as Phil Henderson or Thomas Hill, maybe better. At the aesthetic level, I'm not sure I've ever seen a prettier shot.

But you don't get style points. It goes in or it doesn't. His seem to go in.

But remember how hard guys like Collins, Langdon and Redick worked to get open, coming off screens, fighting off defenders? After a game, Redick looked like he had gone 10 rounds with a bear, scratches and welts and bruises all over his body. Langdon would have to have his shoulders reattached after games. These guys wanted the ball, indeed demanded the ball, and were willing to work overtime to earn the ball.

I haven't seen that with Dawkins, not consistently at least. Last year, Duke needed him to play off Singler, Smith, Irving. But even then, he would sometimes just disappear. This year, Duke needs him to be a primary option on offense, not a secondary one.

I didn't see that Friday. He did hit one early jumper with a hand in his face but then he reverted to earlier form, strangely passive.

I really want Dre to suceed. He's an engaging guy, popular with his teammates and the fans. But sometimes he has to have a fire lit under him. That just seems to be his personality and Duke has had more than its share of silent assasins. But a confident, assertive Andre Dawkins could go a long way towards turning Duke into the kind of team we've come to expect. The opportunity is right in front of him. Will he grab it?


This, in spades. He is an enigma. When he is 'on' you remember, not only the threes, but the blow by tomahawk dunks (ok 1 stands out). His enthusiasm is also quite contagious, he has a great smile and can really get the team going. When he is down, he is like a giant black hole of energy. He is listless, defends poorly, and generally makes the team look less dynamic on both sides of the ball. I think all of us hope he makes the jump this season. The relentless energy of Reddick and Langdon in his own smooth way, are great examples for Dre. He is, arguably, physically more gifted than either of those two and has a shot to match, but has a long way to go in terms of showing the consistent fire that those two all time greats did. I hope he follows a Nolan arc rather than a Ricky Price arc (another player who seemed fractions away from greatness but never got there). The same holds true from Mason, as well, though in a very different type of player. I found it encouraging that he was very excited about the come from behind blue team victory, even though he was not a significant contributor. Speaks to a possible injury/limitation that others have speculated on... or perhaps a sign of maturity. Either is a good sign.

Reilly
10-17-2011, 10:18 AM
Maybe he needs to release his "inner Chi" like Battier did after watching a kung-fu movie. ....

I think w/ Battier it was a Discovery channel documentary about monks ... and that was more about letting the game come to him and being in the natural flow .... Andre doesn't need that; he does need a kung-fu movie ....

UrinalCake
10-17-2011, 10:43 AM
I think w/ Battier it was a Discovery channel documentary about monks ...

Shaolin monks, to be exact. Wow, I can't remember anything I learned in any of my classes at Duke, but I remember that.

Totally agree about Dawkins. There were many times over the past two years that I'd watch just him for a whole possession and he would just stand in the corner. I thought maybe I was being too hard on him, that maybe the coaching staff had told him that his role was simply to spot up while his more senior players tried to make a play. But regardless, this is his year to step it up.

jimsumner
10-17-2011, 11:50 AM
The term "sixth man" can mean a couple of things. In its most basic sense, it simply refers to the first guy off the bench.

That's the default.

But there's a more nuanced interpretation. When former Duke P.E. instructor Red Auerbach was coaching the Celtics, he came up with an idea that he could better utilize one of his starters in a key, reserve role. Frank Ramsey was the first but the idea reached its apotheosis with John Havlicek.

Simply put, Auerbach's sixth man was a versatile, mid-sized player, who could come off the bench for any number of starters and fill any number of roles.
A true sixth man would benefit from watching the beginning of the game, monitoring the officiating, the flow of the game, what was working, what his team needed. Then, at a point when the starters were getting winded, Auerbach would go with the sixth man, who either would be matched against a tiring starter or a less effective reserve. The sixth man could score, defend, pass, attack off the dribble, energize a sluggish team, calm down a frenzied team.

David Henderson was the best Duke analogue. In 1984 and 1985 Duke started Jay Bilas, Dan Meagher, Mark Alarie, Johnny Dawkins and Tommy Amaker. But in both seasons, Henderson was fourth on the team in minutes played and third in scoring. He could come in for Bilas, with Alarie moving to the 5. Or he could come in for Meagher, with Alarie moving to the 4. He could come in for Alarie. He could come in for Amaker, with JD taking over at point. He could even come in for Dawkins, if Dawkins was inclined to come out, which he rarely was.

And Henderson could drive, rebound, be a lock-up defender. Whatever the team needed.

Billy McCaffrey made the 1991 All Final Four team off the bench. Jon Scheyer excelled in the role in 2008. Marty Clark had his moments.

I'm not sure if Andre Dawkins has the versatility to be a prototype sixth man. A bit of a one-trick pony. So far. But he sure could provide some instant O off the bench.

If I were a betting man, I would wager that Dawkins will start at the 3 more often than not. But I think we need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that Duke will have A starting lineup this season. I think it way more likely that Duke will have multiple starting lineups. There's a lot of talent on this team but a lot of uncertainty. At last week's press conference, K was asked to identify some under-the-radar-players. His response was that they all were under the radar and several needed to be above the radar, all the time. Until those players are identified, I would look for some lineup instability.

That's not necessarily a recipe for disaster. Duke lost three senior starters in 1990 and K responded with a rotating 1991 lineup, that saw nine different players get multiple starts. It seemed to work out okay.

COYS
10-17-2011, 12:01 PM
That's not necessarily a recipe for disaster. Duke lost three senior starters in 1990 and K responded with a rotating 1991 lineup, that saw nine different players get multiple starts. It seemed to work out okay.

While perhaps not quite as extreme, the 2010 team saw two starters depart from the previous year and the pre-season projected starting lineup of Mason, Miles, Kyle, Nolan, and Jon only started one game, if I remember correctly. Olek even started while Nolan was serving his suspension for playing in an unsanctioned summer league game. I'd say the staff figured out that lineup situation pretty well, too.

Actually, come to think of it, the 2001 team had a lineup shuffle after Boozer's injury, as well. I second Jim Sumner in that I'm not too worried about establishing a starting lineup from day one.

ACCBBallFan
10-17-2011, 12:14 PM
I'm far less worried about who starts (at any point in the season) and much more interested in who is on the floor at the end of tight games. Really, that's what matters... as Jon Scheyer reminded us all.
I went back and rewatched the scrimmage.

Seth was equal opportunity beating Quinn cleanly at least 6 times, Tyler 4 and Austin twice on switches.

When the game was on the line, Wojo and Capel had Quinn on the pine and Gbinije in the game for the last several minutes, until only a few seconds remained when they subbed in Quinn for better 3 point shooting. So only 13 minutes and not during prime time.

Tyler got beat a lot, a couple more times by Dre, and fouled a lot

Seth and Ryan traded key turnovers and steals in final minute.

Dre was open just missing after beating Tyler twice, Gbinbje twice and Quinn once. Maybe some credit for Gbinije for the 1-7 but did not exactly smother him either. Austin did the best on Dre and vice versa.

On defense Dre did a decent job on Austin in second half and Josh switched off well a couple times too. Josh also set a couple good screens. Josh could not guard Ryan though.

Austin beat whoever guarded him whether it was Alex once, Dre three times, Seth twice or Josh once. Wojo and Capel moved Dre onto him and he did draw a charge and another turnover, as did Josh on switches, a testamdent to his experience.

Quinn also beat Alex once and Seth once in first half but did not do much in second. Perhaps he may still be getting into game shape after the long rest of his now fully recovered knee.

Whichever of the two Plums and Kelly who was solo versus the other two, in this case Mason, would have looked worse by being paired with Josh/Marshall than with a starter.

Suffice it to say that coach K has a lot of weapons at his disposal, especially on offense.

dcar1985
10-17-2011, 01:23 PM
I went back and rewatched the scrimmage.

Seth was equal opportunity beating Quinn cleanly at least 6 times, Tyler 4 and Austin twice on switches.

When the game was on the line, Wojo and Capel had Quinn on the pine and Gbinije in the game for the last several minutes, until only a few seconds remained when they subbed in Quinn for better 3 point shooting. So only 13 minutes and not during prime time.

Tyler got beat a lot, a couple more times by Dre, and fouled a lot

Seth and Ryan traded key turnovers and steals in final minute.

Dre was open just missing after beating Tyler twice, Gbinbje twice and Quinn once. Maybe some credit for Gbinije for the 1-7 but did not exactly smother him either. Austin did the best on Dre and vice versa.

On defense Dre did a decent job on Austin in second half and Josh switched off well a couple times too. Josh also set a couple good screens. Josh could not guard Ryan though.

Austin beat whoever guarded him whether it was Alex once, Dre three times, Seth twice or Josh once. Wojo and Capel moved Dre onto him and he did draw a charge and another turnover, as did Josh on switches, a testamdent to his experience.

Quinn also beat Alex once and Seth once in first half but did not do much in second. Perhaps he may still be getting into game shape after the long rest of his now fully recovered knee.

Whichever of the two Plums and Kelly who was solo versus the other two, in this case Mason, would have looked worse by being paired with Josh/Marshall than with a starter.

Suffice it to say that coach K has a lot of weapons at his disposal, especially on offense.

Is closing out on a three point shooter considered getting beat? Getting beat is more of a blow by term or even and off the dribble pull up

MulletMan
10-17-2011, 01:39 PM
I tried to get a "JJ Redick's dynamite!" going, but no one around me picked it up...

I'm pretty sure that I just died a little inside.

If you read my posting history, you'll see that I am pretty apt to defend whatever the current incarnation of the Crazies is, but the loss or non-knowledge of some of the iconic chants makes me sad.

For example, with grad students on both ends, Cameron is perfectly set up for the Big-High-School chant for state... but at the last game, no one could get it going. Instead, there was just a lot of Lets-Go-Duke and Some-one'-na-ame clap-clap clap-clap-clap. C'mon... I know you guys can do better!

Gauntlet thrown down!!!

MulletMan
10-17-2011, 01:50 PM
This, in spades. He is an enigma. When he is 'on' you remember, not only the threes, but the blow by tomahawk dunks (ok 1 stands out). His enthusiasm is also quite contagious, he has a great smile and can really get the team going. When he is down, he is like a giant black hole of energy. He is listless, defends poorly, and generally makes the team look less dynamic on both sides of the ball. I think all of us hope he makes the jump this season. The relentless energy of Reddick and Langdon in his own smooth way, are great examples for Dre. He is, arguably, physically more gifted than either of those two and has a shot to match, but has a long way to go in terms of showing the consistent fire that those two all time greats did.

Plain and simple... this is what we need to see from Dre (Highlight #2 in the countdown, at the 2:52 mark of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9l0pXd5s0g

If he takes and aggressive mindset to attacking the basket he will take some pressure off of Rivers to drive and create, get himself moving and in the flow of the game more, and make defenders back off of his outside jumper.

dcar1985
10-17-2011, 02:29 PM
Plain and simple... this is what we need to see from Dre (Highlight #2 in the countdown, at the 2:52 mark of the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9l0pXd5s0g

If he takes and aggressive mindset to attacking the basket he will take some pressure off of Rivers to drive and create, get himself moving and in the flow of the game more, and make defenders back off of his outside jumper.

Its a lot easier than it sounds especially if Dre isn't putting in the work needed to improve his handle. Its pretty clear that he doesn't feel comfortable putting it on the deck, I don't know how many people here on the board have played at that level or against players of that level anywhere but when your not at a that level in a certain skill your probably not going do much of it because its exactly what the opposing player wants, they know his handle is weak and would probably prefer Dre to try and create off the dribble because he's not good at it.......right now Dre putting the ball on the floor is just asking to be stolen or some kind of bad decision to be made.

I was really hoping he would focus on this during the off season and maybe he has but just hasn't got to the point where in his mind he's comfortable and just does. He really has the potential to be a big time player if he puts the effort in to improve other parts of his game and not just perfect his jumper.

CDu
10-17-2011, 03:23 PM
Is closing out on a three point shooter considered getting beat? Getting beat is more of a blow by term or even and off the dribble pull up

That was my first reaction to the post as well. I haven't seen the video (I don't get ESPN3), but Dawkins has generally known for firing LONG 3pt attempts in a catch-and-shoot mode. I wouldn't call those scenarios "beating his man" but rather "taking what the defense gave him."

UNCleRod
10-17-2011, 04:28 PM
article from grantland on CTC

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/6728/austin-rivers-seth-curry-and-unforeseen-drama-at-dukes-midnight-madness

sounds like curry showed the freshman what college bball is about.

ACCBBallFan
10-17-2011, 08:17 PM
That was my first reaction to the post as well. I haven't seen the video (I don't get ESPN3), but Dawkins has generally known for firing LONG 3pt attempts in a catch-and-shoot mode. I wouldn't call those scenarios "beating his man" but rather "taking what the defense gave him."Fair enough. I took the opposite view that the scouting report says don't leave him open and he was open.

Since he only hit 1-7, I agree it may be harsh to label it getting beaten, but he is almost as likely to hit those many nights.

CDu
10-17-2011, 10:35 PM
Fair enough. I took the opposite view that the scouting report says don't leave him open and he was open.

Since he only hit 1-7, I agree it may be harsh to label it getting beaten, but he is almost as likely to hit those many nights.

Well, I don't think he was terribly open on too many of his looks, either. Most were reasonably defended, he just shot them anyway. I definitely wouldn't use the terminology that he beat the defense. At best, the defense just didn't extend far enough in a few cases.

Newton_14
10-17-2011, 11:00 PM
Its a lot easier than it sounds especially if Dre isn't putting in the work needed to improve his handle. Its pretty clear that he doesn't feel comfortable putting it on the deck, I don't know how many people here on the board have played at that level or against players of that level anywhere but when your not at a that level in a certain skill your probably not going do much of it because its exactly what the opposing player wants, they know his handle is weak and would probably prefer Dre to try and create off the dribble because he's not good at it.......right now Dre putting the ball on the floor is just asking to be stolen or some kind of bad decision to be made.

I was really hoping he would focus on this during the off season and maybe he has but just hasn't got to the point where in his mind he's comfortable and just does. He really has the potential to be a big time player if he puts the effort in to improve other parts of his game and not just perfect his jumper.

I don't think Andre putting the ball on the floor is asking for steals or bad decisions. Not at all. It was one scrimmage. I wouldn't give up on Andre attacking the basket after one Blue White game. He did put in a lot of work this summer on his handle and attacking the basket. I saw some of it first hand at the Summer League. In past summers in that league he pretty much hung out on the perimeter and jacked up 3's. This year he attacked the basket time and time again. He also drove and pulled up for mid-range jumpers. He still took a decent amount of 3's but several of those were NOT catch and shoot, but rather a stare down, couple of dribbles and step back pull up 3's. He shot the ball incredibly well too. It was summer league of course, but there was good talent on the floor and he was challenged with college and on occasion, pro level defenders. Several nights he played the point, bringing the ball up the court and initiating the offense. I am sure that was by design to get him as much work as possible on ball handling. I have to believe there were many hours spent in the gym as well, working on ball handling and attacking.

It will be tougher to do that against ACC competition of course, but I will be surprised if we do not see some of those same moves as soon as the exhibition games and early season games start. It is hard to get a read from the Blue White for several reasons. The defense knows the offensive sets and exactly where each player wants to go and is supposed to go on given plays, and the line ups are different as well. Plus with him skipping the dunk contest, Andre was likely not 100% Friday Night.

I may be out on a limb, but I am not ready to declare Andre "not improved" based on how he played in the Blue White. As we get into games, and he is on the floor with the regular lineups playing against real teams, I expect to see Andre start looking to attack, looking for mid-range pull ups, and of course seeking the 3 point shot in all area's of the floor. I am with Jim Sumner, in that one would be hard pressed to find a better looking stroke. He easily has the purest jumpshot since JJ. Poetry in motion.

loldevilz
10-18-2011, 01:33 AM
I don't think Andre putting the ball on the floor is asking for steals or bad decisions. Not at all. It was one scrimmage. I wouldn't give up on Andre attacking the basket after one Blue White game. He did put in a lot of work this summer on his handle and attacking the basket. I saw some of it first hand at the Summer League. In past summers in that league he pretty much hung out on the perimeter and jacked up 3's. This year he attacked the basket time and time again. He also drove and pulled up for mid-range jumpers. He still took a decent amount of 3's but several of those were NOT catch and shoot, but rather a stare down, couple of dribbles and step back pull up 3's. He shot the ball incredibly well too. It was summer league of course, but there was good talent on the floor and he was challenged with college and on occasion, pro level defenders. Several nights he played the point, bringing the ball up the court and initiating the offense. I am sure that was by design to get him as much work as possible on ball handling. I have to believe there were many hours spent in the gym as well, working on ball handling and attacking.

It will be tougher to do that against ACC competition of course, but I will be surprised if we do not see some of those same moves as soon as the exhibition games and early season games start. It is hard to get a read from the Blue White for several reasons. The defense knows the offensive sets and exactly where each player wants to go and is supposed to go on given plays, and the line ups are different as well. Plus with him skipping the dunk contest, Andre was likely not 100% Friday Night.

I may be out on a limb, but I am not ready to declare Andre "not improved" based on how he played in the Blue White. As we get into games, and he is on the floor with the regular lineups playing against real teams, I expect to see Andre start looking to attack, looking for mid-range pull ups, and of course seeking the 3 point shot in all area's of the floor. I am with Jim Sumner, in that one would be hard pressed to find a better looking stroke. He easily has the purest jumpshot since JJ. Poetry in motion.

Dawkins took 7 three pointers and they were almost all catch and shoot- many were contested. He has showed no signs of developing his offensive game. Sure he can drive to the hoop if there is a wide open lane, but he isn't going to beat someone off the dribble on a regular basis. He doesn't even really utilize the pump fake which could really help him create some space. But as others have mentioned the main problem with his offense is that he just doesn't fit into the flow. He doesn't make good passes to the bigs or get rebounds or come off screens. He drifts till he is left open for a three. Anyways, his offense isn't really going to be the issue this year. He will need to prove that he can rebound and defend at the small forward spot to play. From what I've seen I doubt that this happens and I expect Gbinije to eventually take over the starting spot.

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 07:44 AM
He has showed no signs of developing his offensive game. Sure he can drive to the hoop if there is a wide open lane, but he isn't going to beat someone off the dribble on a regular basis. He doesn't even really utilize the pump fake which could really help him create some space. But as others have mentioned the main problem with his offense is that he just doesn't fit into the flow. He doesn't make good passes to the bigs or get rebounds or come off screens. He drifts till he is left open for a three. Anyways, his offense isn't really going to be the issue this year. He will need to prove that he can rebound and defend at the small forward spot to play.

And you can tell all this based on one intra-squad scrimmage?


From what I've seen I doubt that this happens and I expect Gbinije to eventually take over the starting spot.

I think this might happen, too -- after Andre graduates. Not this year, though.

I also think you ought to temper your expectations for Mike. I think he has great long-term potential, but this season I'll be surprised if he averages more than 5 minutes a game.

Skitzle
10-18-2011, 09:31 AM
article from grantland on CTC

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/6728/austin-rivers-seth-curry-and-unforeseen-drama-at-dukes-midnight-madness

sounds like curry showed the freshman what college bball is about.


this is a good article. I am highlighting it and requesting it be discussed :)

watzone
10-18-2011, 09:42 AM
We have teamed with the Ball is Life guys for several videos - here is our debut hightlight vid from Countdown to Craziness - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/bdn-brings-you-video-highlights-from-countdown-to-craziness/

It was a good time event which IMO showed that Kelly, the Plums, Austin, Seth an Andre were the top six. The interesting battles will be for the 7th and 8th spots. Some are worried with Rivers to's but trust me, the light will go off foe he has too much talent.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 10:20 AM
And you can tell all this based on one intra-squad scrimmage?



I think this might happen, too -- after Andre graduates. Not this year, though.

I also think you ought to temper your expectations for Mike. I think he has great long-term potential, but this season I'll be surprised if he averages more than 5 minutes a game.

No I think he can come to that conclusion based on the last two year and this years scrimmage. Dre just isn't comfortable putting it on the floor, it is what it is....if he had developed this skill why not show it now? You playing against players you know and there's no pressure because its basically a glorified practice scrimmage. I could even understand him showing that ability now during the scrimmage but then it disappearing during season but I'm not seeing it....when he gets the ball he's looking to shoot or get rid of it as soon as possible ex. Being that long 3 Seth had in the first half I believe off a pass from Dre during a fast break. One of the bigs got the ball in transition and looked for a guard which they should, the ball came to Dre and he acted as if the ball was on fire getting rid of it immediately ...to the surprise of Seth even tho he buried the trey. I like others hope we're missing something, Dre is my favorite player on the team I think he has all the potential to be an All American type player.


Why would u be surprised about Mike averaging at least 5 mins a game....are you basing that on nervous play during the China trip? I thought he looked good during the scrimmage, played solid D crashed the boards went to the cup strong, missed one bunny got fouled on another two drives but they weren't called, also had a really nice heads up behind the back pass to Miles for the dunk as Mike ran the floor and beat everyone else back.....The kid can play...he was clearly uncomfortable and didn't know where to be on offense but that will come plus it was August...he has a really smooth game and once he settles down and learns the offense he'll contribute....seems like a lot of people are writing Mike off who don't really know much about his game outside of China

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 11:07 AM
No I think he can come to that conclusion based on the last two year and this years scrimmage. Dre just isn't comfortable putting it on the floor, it is what it is....if he had developed this skill why not show it now? You playing against players you know and there's no pressure because its basically a glorified practice scrimmage. I could even understand him showing that ability now during the scrimmage but then it disappearing during season but I'm not seeing it....when he gets the ball he's looking to shoot or get rid of it as soon as possible ex. Being that long 3 Seth had in the first half I believe off a pass from Dre during a fast break. One of the bigs got the ball in transition and looked for a guard which they should, the ball came to Dre and he acted as if the ball was on fire getting rid of it immediately ...to the surprise of Seth even tho he buried the trey. I like others hope we're missing something, Dre is my favorite player on the team I think he has all the potential to be an All American type player.

We all know how Andre played his first two years, but the question is how he's developed in the off-season. Personally, I saw a lot of advancement between his freshman and sophomore years and I expect a lot more between last season and this. As Newton said, he handled the ball plenty during the summer league (albeit against essentially no defense). I'm just saying nobody should declare that Andre hasn't developed or advanced between last season and this one based on one scrimmage (or even one scrimmage plus the China trip, although I thought Andre looked pretty good on the China trip). We have no idea yet how he's going to play this season.



Why would u be surprised about Mike averaging at least 5 mins a game....are you basing that on nervous play during the China trip? I thought he looked good during the scrimmage, played solid D crashed the boards went to the cup strong, missed one bunny got fouled on another two drives but they weren't called, also had a really nice heads up behind the back pass to Miles for the dunk as Mike ran the floor and beat everyone else back.....The kid can play...he was clearly uncomfortable and didn't know where to be on offense but that will come plus it was August...he has a really smooth game and once he settles down and learns the offense he'll contribute....seems like a lot of people are writing Mike off who don't really know much about his game outside of China

It's not a matter of writing him off, it's basic math. I figure Seth and Austin will play around 65 minutes between them and Miles/Mason/Ryan will split around 75 minutes. Andre should get at least 25 and probably closer to 30. That's 165 to 170 minutes, leaving 30 to 35, combined for: Alex, Quinn, Tyler, Josh, Mike, and Marshall. Let's say Quinn and Tyler split 15 minutes and Alex gets 10 to 15. That leaves 5 to 10 minutes for Josh, Mike, and Marshall. I figure Josh is good for 5, which leaves 0 to 5 for Mike and 0 for Marshall. And I might be underestimating Alex's minutes here, which would pinch the last few guys even more.

Put another way, I expect everyone will play in the early season blowouts, but in the games that count, there's almost no chance we'll go beyond 9 guys in the rotation, and it'll most likely be 8, or even 7. Mike has little chance to leapfrog the top six (Austin/Seth/Andre/Miles/Mason/Ryan) in the rotation, and he's unlikely to get past Quinn, Alex, or Tyler (although I suppose it's possible he could slip past one of the backup PGs up to become the 9th man in the rotation). It's not even a lock that he'll leapfrog over Josh. As a 10th or 11th man, it's highly unlikely he'll get as high as 5 minutes a game, at least in games that count. Even as a ninth man it's a longshot to get much more than that.

Don't get me wrong. I like the potential in what I've seen from Mike so far. I think he'll end up being a good player for Duke, hopefully next year and certainly after that. I just think there are too many guys ahead of him this season for him to play more than a few minutes a game.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 11:30 AM
We all know how Andre played his first two years, but the question is how he's developed in the off-season. Personally, I saw a lot of advancement between his freshman and sophomore years and I expect a lot more between last season and this. As Newton said, he handled the ball plenty during the summer league (albeit against essentially no defense). I'm just saying nobody should declare that Andre hasn't developed or advanced between last season and this one based on one scrimmage (or even one scrimmage plus the China trip, although I thought Andre looked pretty good on the China trip). We have no idea yet how he's going to play this season.




It's not a matter of writing him off, it's basic math. I figure Seth and Austin will play around 65 minutes between them and Miles/Mason/Ryan will split around 75 minutes. Andre should get at least 25 and probably closer to 30. That's 165 to 170 minutes, leaving 30 to 35, combined for: Alex, Quinn, Tyler, Josh, Mike, and Marshall. Let's say Quinn and Tyler split 15 minutes and Alex gets 10 to 15. That leaves 5 to 10 minutes for Josh, Mike, and Marshall. I figure Josh is good for 5, which leaves 0 to 5 for Mike and 0 for Marshall. And I might be underestimating Alex's minutes here, which would pinch the last few guys even more.

Put another way, I expect everyone will play in the early season blowouts, but in the games that count, there's almost no chance we'll go beyond 9 guys in the rotation, and it'll most likely be 8, or even 7. Mike has little chance to leapfrog the top six (Austin/Seth/Andre/Miles/Mason/Ryan) in the rotation, and he's unlikely to get past Quinn, Alex, or Tyler (although I suppose it's possible he could slip past one of the backup PGs up to become the 9th man in the rotation). It's not even a lock that he'll leapfrog over Josh. As a 10th or 11th man, it's highly unlikely he'll get as high as 5 minutes a game, at least in games that count. Even as a ninth man it's a longshot to get much more than that.

Don't get me wrong. I like the potential in what I've seen from Mike so far. I think he'll end up being a good player for Duke, hopefully next year and certainly after that. I just think there are too many guys ahead of him this season for him to play more than a few minutes a game.


Like I've said in past post its easy to feel more comfortable handling the rock against lesser competition especially when no one is really D'ing you up and this is coming from a pure basketball stand point not as an observer...Yea he looked good in China but not putting the ball on the floor, the two times I remember off the top of my head he drove right into a travel which should've been a charge and the other he clanked a floater off the side of the backboard. I try not to make assumptions about you guys since I don't know your background but as a basketball player (not professionally) even though I have played against pro talent from what I see Dre looks super uneasy w/ the rock and yes I can see that from just the scrimmage.

Im still not getting why your assuming that its unlikely Mike will pass anyone in the rotation, you don't think K is going to play the best players available? If Mike gets its he'll play I don't think K plays favorites...and IMO he's more talented then Tyler, Josh, and Alex. Its all just of matter of putting it together and understanding what your running out there and since the season hasn't even started Im not ready to say he's not gonna play.....It seems like your telling me not to base much on the scrimmage in Dre's case but you've already got a rotation set off of it when it comes to everybody else....

CDu
10-18-2011, 11:38 AM
We all know how Andre played his first two years, but the question is how he's developed in the off-season. Personally, I saw a lot of advancement between his freshman and sophomore years and I expect a lot more between last season and this. As Newton said, he handled the ball plenty during the summer league (albeit against essentially no defense). I'm just saying nobody should declare that Andre hasn't developed or advanced between last season and this one based on one scrimmage (or even one scrimmage plus the China trip, although I thought Andre looked pretty good on the China trip). We have no idea yet how he's going to play this season.

I don't think we've seen any evidence that Dawkins is comfortable off the dribble at any point against remotely meaningful defense. It's easy to attack off the dribble when there's no defense. But Dawkins didn't show the comfort to do so as a freshman, he didn't show it as a sophomore, and he didn't show it in China/UAE, and he didn't show it in the Blue/White scrimmage.

It's possible that he has advanced to a meaningful degree in this area, but I wouldn't say it's likely based on what we've seen. Fortunately, I don't he'll be asked to attack off the dribble too much. I suspect Curry and Rivers will do a lot more of it, along with Cook whenever he sees the floor.

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 11:52 AM
Im still not getting why your assuming that its unlikely Mike will pass anyone in the rotation, you don't think K is going to play the best players available? If Mike gets its he'll play I don't think K plays favorites...and IMO he's more talented then Tyler, Josh, and Alex. Its all just of matter of putting it together and understanding what your running out there and since the season hasn't even started Im not ready to say he's not gonna play.....It seems like your telling me not to base much on the scrimmage in Dre's case but you've already got a rotation set off of it when it comes to everybody else....

I'm not basing my rotation thoughts on how anyone played in China or in the scrimmage (I didn't even see the scrimmage). Obviously we won't know for sure until the real games start. You asked me why I'd be surprised if Mike averages more than 5 mpg this season and I told you.

I do admit my opinions have taken into account how the players were used in China by the coaching staff (which is different from how the players played, because how they were used presumably is based on how the players practiced and the extent to which the coaches think the players are ready), and Mike was clearly the 10th man (but Quinn didn't play at all, and there's a decent chance he'd have been ahead of Mike if he had, which would push Mike down to 11th man). Perhaps I'm jumping the gun in relying on that information, but I haven't heard any recent buzz that the coaches think Mike is ready to make a big leap in the rotation, either, so at least until I see or hear otherwise, I'm comfortable in my assumptions. Also, again not looking at how anyone played but how the coaches deployed the players, in the Blue/White scrimmage, Mike was the sixth man on his team (out of 6), while Tyler and Quinn started -- doesn't really mean anything, but suggests he's the 11th man in the rotation right now.

Clearly Mike has great athletic gifts. On what do you base your assertion that right now he's a better player than Tyler, Josh, and Alex? To some extent Josh, and certainly Tyler, have shown they can play on the college level. We haven't seen much of Mike at that level yet, but we certainly haven't seen anything to suggest he's more ready to play against college opponents than our two sophomores.

Several insiders have posted that Alex has been fighting for a starting job so far this season, and they obviously know more than I do. Personally, I'd be surprised if Alex gets that starting job, but if he's good enough to challenge for it he'll probably get decent minutes, and that puts him ahead of Mike in the rotation, at least at this point. If that's true (and I expect it is), then even if you're right and Mike can pass Tyler and Josh on the depth chart, he'd still be the 9th man. And historically at Duke, the 9th man doesn't play much more than 5 minutes, once the real games start. In most years the 9th guy averages less than 5 mpg for the season and barely plays at all in ACC games.

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 11:54 AM
I don't think we've seen any evidence that Dawkins is comfortable off the dribble at any point against remotely meaningful defense. It's easy to attack off the dribble when there's no defense. But Dawkins didn't show the comfort to do so as a freshman, he didn't show it as a sophomore, and he didn't show it in China/UAE, and he didn't show it in the Blue/White scrimmage.

It's possible that he has advanced to a meaningful degree in this area, but I wouldn't say it's likely based on what we've seen. Fortunately, I don't he'll be asked to attack off the dribble too much. I suspect Curry and Rivers will do a lot more of it, along with Cook whenever he sees the floor.

I am not arguing that Andre is ready to attack primarily off the dribble. I was protesting against someone saying his game hasn't developed/advanced based on the Blue/White scrimmage. There's a lot more to development and advancement than attacking off the dribble.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 11:59 AM
We have teamed with the Ball is Life guys for several videos - here is our debut hightlight vid from Countdown to Craziness - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/10/bdn-brings-you-video-highlights-from-countdown-to-craziness/

It was a good time event which IMO showed that Kelly, the Plums, Austin, Seth an Andre were the top six. The interesting battles will be for the 7th and 8th spots. Some are worried with Rivers to's but trust me, the light will go off foe he has too much talent.

No love for Josh or Mike...not cool

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not basing my rotation thoughts on how anyone played in China or in the scrimmage (I didn't even see the scrimmage). Obviously we won't know for sure until the real games start. You asked me why I'd be surprised if Mike averages more than 5 mpg this season and I told you.

I do admit my opinions have taken into account how the players were used in China by the coaching staff (which is different from how the players played, because how they were used presumably is based on how the players practiced and the extent to which the coaches think the players are ready), and Mike was clearly the 10th man (but Quinn didn't play at all, and there's a decent chance he'd have been ahead of Mike if he had, which would push Mike down to 11th man). Perhaps I'm jumping the gun in relying on that information, but I haven't heard any recent buzz that the coaches think Mike is ready to make a big leap in the rotation, either, so at least until I see or hear otherwise, I'm comfortable in my assumptions. (Also, again not looking at how anyone played but how the coaches deployed the players, in the Blue/White scrimmage, Mike was the sixth man on his team (out of 6), while Tyler and Quinn started -- doesn't really mean anything, but suggests he's the 11th man in the rotation right now.)

Clearly Mike has great athletic gifts. On what do you base your assertion that right now he's a better player than Tyler, Josh, and Alex? To some extent Josh, and certainly Tyler, have shown they can play on the college level. We haven't seen much of Mike at that level yet, but we certainly haven't seen anything to suggest he's more ready to play against college opponents than our two sophomores.

Several insiders have posted that Alex has been fighting for a starting job so far this season, and they obviously know more than I do. Personally, I'd be surprised if Alex gets that starting job, but if he's good enough to challenge for it he'll probably get decent minutes, and that puts him ahead of Mike in the rotation, at least at this point. If that's true (and I expect it is), then even if you're right and Mike can pass Tyler and Josh on the depth chart, he'd still be the 9th man. And historically at Duke, the 9th man doesn't play much more than 5 minutes, once the real games start.

Im not saying anything about what the rotation might be today....The season hasn't started. Of course Josh and Tyler have shown they can play at the college level b/c they've been in college for a year now....they're experience doesn't make them more talented in my mind....As far as the whole Alex thing, yea I've heard the same thing my question is...is that b/c of Alex playing extremely well or Dre under performing? I haven't seen anything in the little game action we've seen to say Alex should starting.

I just feel like Mike has been looked over for a while especially here on the board....and I look for great things out of him in the future. I get that he's not as easy to relate to as the other players w/ Quinns connection to Nolan, Alex and the whole Singler/Dunleavy clone stuff, Marshall being the 3rd Plumlee and Austin being Austin.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 12:16 PM
I am not arguing that Andre is ready to attack primarily off the dribble. I was protesting against someone saying his game hasn't developed/advanced based on the Blue/White scrimmage. There's a lot more to development and advancement than attacking off the dribble.

I specifically said him putting the rock on the floor not any other part of his game

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 12:28 PM
I specifically said him putting the rock on the floor not any other part of his game

Yes, you did, in response to my post about something another poster said. The original poster did not limit his comments to ballhandling alone.


I just feel like Mike has been looked over for a while especially here on the board....and I look for great things out of him in the future. I get that he's not as easy to relate to as the other players w/ Quinns connection to Nolan, Alex and the whole Singler/Dunleavy clone stuff, Marshall being the 3rd Plumlee and Austin being Austin.

I don't feel like people are overlooking Mike (I'm fairly certain I'm not) and I don't think he's difficult to relate to at all. I just think he's the 11th man in the rotation, and maybe he'll work his way up to 10th or even 9th, but that's not going to get him more than 5 mpg in close games. We have a very deep team and a coach who historically doesn't go very deep into his rotation. I fully expect Mike to someday be a starter for Duke, maybe even a star. Just not this year.

airowe
10-18-2011, 12:46 PM
I just feel like Mike has been looked over for a while especially here on the board....and I look for great things out of him in the future. I get that he's not as easy to relate to as the other players w/ Quinns connection to Nolan, Alex and the whole Singler/Dunleavy clone stuff, Marshall being the 3rd Plumlee and Austin being Austin.

Mike is very, very talented but his entire basketball career he has been known to "coast" a bit on the floor, especially on the defensive end. Talent alone doesn't get you on the floor for Duke.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 12:52 PM
Mike is very, very talented but his entire basketball career he has been known to "coast" a bit on the floor, especially on the defensive end. Talent alone doesn't get you on the floor for Duke.

Definitely not saying it does....doesn't change the fact that he gets slept on

uh_no
10-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Mike is very, very talented but his entire basketball career he has been known to "coast" a bit on the floor, especially on the defensive end. Talent alone doesn't get you on the floor for Duke.

One could ask Taylor King how "coasting" down the floor on defense gets you playing time....the question is, can he shape up and give 100% on the defensive end....if kids are smart, they catch on pretty quickly that if you don't play defense, you don't play at duke

airowe
10-18-2011, 01:08 PM
One could ask Taylor King how "coasting" down the floor on defense gets you playing time....the question is, can he shape up and give 100% on the defensive end....if kids are smart, they catch on pretty quickly that if you don't play defense, you don't play at duke

Agreed. And, just to note, I'm not saying that Gbinije is guilty of doing that since he got to Duke, but I think he has some things to work through before he gets on the floor for meaningful stretches this early in his career.

Not to mention the depth that we have at Michael's position(s) and he's facing an uphill battle for PT in conference play. I don't see that as "sleeping on him" but just taking a realistic view of the situation.

ACCBBallFan
10-18-2011, 01:24 PM
I read more into Dre not competing in the dunk contest, a skill everybody acknowledges he has.

The upperclassmen view the Blue White as a chance for the younger guys to shine. I did not think either Dre or Ryan were going full tilt. Ryan took it easy on Josh and Marshall and of course siblings fight each other just for the fun of it. He played harder when guarding Mason when Marshall was paired off with Miles.

Seth's compettive fire kicked in at end, and pretty much throughout, possibly to pick up slack for Dre who IMO must have a minor undisclosed injury that is not severe enough to keep him off the floor since he was present the entire 24 minutes.

Since he chose not to defend his two-time dunk contest title, I maintain Dre must have been nursing a minor injury. Dre worked more on defensive end verus Austin than on offensive end. It was not necessarily because he can't do it, just that the risk was not worth the reward. It might also explain his 1-7 shooting, had to hoist a few so defender could not shade over to help on Seth.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 01:32 PM
Agreed. And, just to note, I'm not saying that Gbinije is guilty of doing that since he got to Duke, but I think he has some things to work through before he gets on the floor for meaningful stretches this early in his career.

Not to mention the depth that we have at Michael's position(s) and he's facing an uphill battle for PT in conference play. I don't see that as "sleeping on him" but just taking a realistic view of the situation.

I feel like he was overlooked well before he stepped on to campus and its kind of continued now, maybe because he committed early? But for a 6'7 athletic wing who averaged 25, 10, and 5 as a senior there definitely wasn't much buzz around here for him...but then again im kind of assuming that everyone follows HS ball or at least Duke recruits like I do. As you said he has things he needs to work on to earn PT but I think he can get it done whereas it seems some are writing him off b/c they dont know much about him or his game.

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 02:19 PM
I feel like he was overlooked well before he stepped on to campus and its kind of continued now, maybe because he committed early? But for a 6'7 athletic wing who averaged 25, 10, and 5 as a senior there definitely wasn't much buzz around here for him...but then again im kind of assuming that everyone follows HS ball or at least Duke recruits like I do. As you said he has things he needs to work on to earn PT but I think he can get it done whereas it seems some are writing him off b/c they dont know much about him or his game.

High school stats can be misleading. Olek Czyz was a 6'7" athletic wing who averaged 20 and 10 in high school but wasn't remotely ready to play when he arrived at Duke.

Mike Gbinije was rated as the 28th best high school prospect by the RSCI. While of course there are exceptions, guys in that range usually take a year or two before they make major contributions at Duke. I think many of us are excited for Mike's potential and his eventual contributions to Duke basketball, maybe as soon as his sophomore year. Saying he's probably not going to play a huge role in his freshman year isn't disrespecting him or overlooking him or writing him off.

CDu
10-18-2011, 02:33 PM
High school stats can be misleading. Olek Czyz was a 6'7" athletic wing who averaged 20 and 10 in high school but wasn't remotely ready to play when he arrived at Duke.

Mike Gbinije was rated as the 28th best high school prospect by the RSCI. While of course there are exceptions, guys in that range usually take a year or two before they make major contributions at Duke. I think many of us are excited for Mike's potential and his eventual contributions to Duke basketball, maybe as soon as his sophomore year. Saying he's probably not going to play a huge role in his freshman year isn't disrespecting him or overlooking him or writing him off.

In fairness, Czyz was only a wing in the loosest of senses. He played more post in high school, and was a high school "4/5" whose athleticism might allow him to play the wing in college. Gbinije was, from the few games I saw him play, an actual wing player in high school.

But yes, high school stats are a pretty meaningless measure of a player's college readiness. For example, I believe that Mark Causey scored like 30ppg in high school in Georgia. And Casey Sanders was Mr. Basketball in Florida averaging 22 pts, 11 rebounds, and 7 blocks.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 02:34 PM
High school stats can be misleading. Olek Czyz was a 6'7" athletic wing who averaged 20 and 10 in high school but wasn't remotely ready to play when he arrived at Duke.

Mike Gbinije was rated as the 28th best high school prospect by the RSCI. While of course there are exceptions, guys in that range usually take a year or two before they make major contributions at Duke. I think many of us are excited for Mike's potential and his eventual contributions to Duke basketball, maybe as soon as his sophomore year. Saying he's probably not going to play a huge role in his freshman year isn't disrespecting him or overlooking him or writing him off.

If you say so...I could look at it as disrespect or writing him off for the fact that you just mentioned Mike in the same breath as Olek but I won't and I understand what your trying to say still doesn't change my opinion on him being overlooked by many, not just you.

Yea I don't buy that whole guys ranked in this range take this long to contribute thing, luckily we're usually in situation where we don't have to use the sink or swim method but im sure that alot of these guys ranked outside the top 10 are ready to play but they don't have to cause we have more experienced players there also....what about all the other teams out there playing w/ guys not highly ranked coming out of school....if a kid can play he can play regardless of what some supposed recruiting guru says.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 02:39 PM
In fairness, Czyz was only a wing in the loosest of senses. He played more post in high school, and was a high school "4/5" whose athleticism might allow him to play the wing in college. Gbinije was, from the few games I saw him play, an actual wing player in high school.

But yes, high school stats are a pretty meaningless measure of a player's college readiness. For example, I believe that Mark Causey scored like 30ppg in high school in Georgia. And Casey Sanders was Mr. Basketball in Florida averaging 22 pts, 11 rebounds, and 7 blocks.

I didn't say it was a measure of a player's college readiness...I said Mike was being overlooked coming in by many on this board and that there wasn't much buzz for a player of his caliber coming in as a Jordan Brand All American and probably a Mcdonalds AA if it wasnt for the fact that he was a 5th yr player...I dont know much about the expectations of Causey or Sanders coming into college.

CDu
10-18-2011, 02:46 PM
I didn't say it was a measure of a player's college readiness...I said Mike was being overlooked coming in by many on this board and that there wasn't much buzz for a player of his caliber coming in as a Jordan Brand All American and probably a Mcdonalds AA if it wasnt for the fact that he was a 5th yr player...I dont know much about the expectations of Causey or Sanders coming into college.

To provide insight, Causey was a walk-on and nothing significant was expected of him on the court. Sanders was a McDonald's All-American (and I'm pretty sure was higher-rated than Gbinije) and expected by some to be an impact player for Duke and expected by others to be a project.

The Jordan Brand/McDonald's All-American thing is not something that should guarantee a player "buzz." Ryan Kelly was a McDonald's All American yet a lot of people quickly realized he was probably a year away from readiness. So the buzz about him wasn't there. Sean Dockery was a McDonald's All American, but we had a veteran PG and he wasn't considered an immediate impact player. You could go down the list of McDonald's All Americans and find several guys each year who weren't immediate contributors as freshmen.

I think Gbinije is considered by most to be a talented young player. And he had quite a bit of buzz during the last year. But the discussion amongst people close to the program seems to be that he's behind Dawkins and Murphy at the moment, hence the lack of buzz.

Kedsy
10-18-2011, 03:29 PM
Sanders was a McDonald's All-American (and I'm pretty sure was higher-rated than Gbinije) and expected by some to be an impact player for Duke and expected by others to be a project.

Sanders was RSCI #16. My recollection is a lot of people thought he was offensively raw but defensively gifted. Opinions did vary as to whether he would contribute immediately or not. If I remember correctly, I mistakenly bought into the hype.

CDu
10-18-2011, 03:56 PM
Sanders was RSCI #16. My recollection is a lot of people thought he was offensively raw but defensively gifted. Opinions did vary as to whether he would contribute immediately or not. If I remember correctly, I mistakenly bought into the hype.

Yeah, those who were excited about him were excited because his combination of height and athleticism (So fast! Such a good leaper! Game-changing shotblocking skills!) envisioned great things in our up-tempo style. I also was pretty excited about him too - especially pairing his shotblocking gifts with Boozer's offensive prowess.

dcar1985
10-18-2011, 04:37 PM
http://youtu.be/SJwGgoU02fw How cute, Im sooo glad we don't have our guys out there dancing to Ne-Yo songs...

dukeballboy88
10-19-2011, 07:01 AM
The sad part about the above video is those chumps look like they have rehearsed their dance routine. Must have put alot of time into it.

Skitzle
10-19-2011, 12:13 PM
The Influence of Danny Green continues

CDu
10-19-2011, 02:19 PM
Sad.......

I'm not sure why it's sad. It's a silly skit done for the amusement of the players and the fans. I see no problem with it. I saw no problem with the costumes last year. And I saw no problem when we did the Titanic skit with Smith. It's all in good fun.

UrinalCake
10-19-2011, 02:46 PM
Makes the Superbowl Shuffle look like Baryshnikov on stage