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Newton_14
08-22-2011, 09:35 PM
Game is Thursday at 1:30 [pm] Eastern. The other thread has gotten way too big, so let's go to normal protocol (in August, ain't this great!!) and use this thread for discussing the next game. I will put up a post game thread at the end of the game.

Discuss away! Any scoop on the UAE team?

Bob Green
08-22-2011, 10:28 PM
Discuss away! Any scoop on the UAE team?

My understanding is we will be playing the actual UAE National Team, which is ranked #67 in the World:

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/even/rank/p/rankMen.html

http://www.fiba.com/temp/_pdf/FIBAMediaGuide/378.pdf

The China National team is ranked #10, but the past three games have been against the China Junior National Team.

airowe
08-22-2011, 11:13 PM
I've got all their names and ages and am currently working on their heights and weights. I hope to have a post up tomorrow with all their info...

uh_no
08-23-2011, 12:10 AM
My understanding is we will be playing the actual UAE National Team, which is ranked #67 in the World:


I didn't even know there were that many countries! :P

THe things they don't teach us in Pratt!

sagegrouse
08-23-2011, 12:58 AM
I've got all their names and ages and am currently working on their heights and weights. I hope to have a post up tomorrow with all their info...

Did anyone get the detailed roster for the Chinese team? I am particularly interested in heights and weights. It looked like its backcourt ranged from 6-5 to 6-7, judging by how much the players towered over Seth and Tyler.


sagegrouse

airowe
08-25-2011, 12:12 AM
Did anyone get the detailed roster for the Chinese team? I am particularly interested in heights and weights. It looked like its backcourt ranged from 6-5 to 6-7, judging by how much the players towered over Seth and Tyler.


sagegrouse

This is what I found before the games started, not sure how accurate it was: http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2011/08/16/chinese-opponents-who-is-duke-playing/

I'll have the players we're playing in Dubai up on the site tomorrow between 8 and 9 AM. They are a VERY small team. They have one player at 6'8" and two 6'6" centers...

licc85
08-25-2011, 03:18 AM
I wonder if the officiating in this game is going to be as ridiculous as it was in China. Hopefully they can find a way to call the game at least somewhat fair . . . although I predict that the Plunlees are going to whistled get quite a bit just because of the huge size advantage they are going to have against the UAE front court.

airowe
08-25-2011, 08:38 AM
Roster is up: http://www.dukehoopblog.com/2011/08/25/uae-national-team-who-is-duke-playing/

gumbomoop
08-25-2011, 09:02 AM
Thanks to airowe for info. Wow, these guys are neither tall nor weighty. Or something. Do scales in UAE stop at 200?

dchen09
08-25-2011, 10:47 AM
LOL, there's a 5'8 guard who is listed at 200lbs but only 1 of their centers is 200lbs. At least their back court isn't too small per say.

UrinalCake
08-25-2011, 12:00 PM
I predict that the Plumlees are going to whistled get quite a bit just because of the huge size advantage they are going to have against the UAE front court.

I hope they can stay at home defensively against the small lineup instead of reaching in and swatting at the ball. They made some good plays in the backcourt and during inbounds plays in the last game, but honestly I'd rather they stay back and defend straight up rather than expose themselves to cheap ticky-tack fouls. If they've got 5-6 inches on their man then there's no reason they can't create pressure inside without fouling. Let's get the Plums going!

OTOH if they do get into some foul trouble then this might be a game where we experiment with some smaller lineups, like playing Murphy or Gbinije at the 4.

loldevilz
08-25-2011, 01:40 PM
Alex Murphy is a baller. Love his game!

licc85
08-25-2011, 01:42 PM
man, our ball handling is SLOPPY so far. Murph looks good though. Mike G seems to be forcing it right now. The UAE point guard is pretty good, he's quick and crafty, gotta keep an eye on him.

Duke79UNLV77
08-25-2011, 01:46 PM
and Sean May in the same place at the same time? If so, I bet it was at a McDonald's.

meloveduke
08-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Our bench vs their starters is a good game....

CameronBornAndBred
08-25-2011, 01:50 PM
I see snrub is empty..Section 21 is open if anyone cares to join. Just pick a username, leave password blank. Tight game, fugly shooting on both sides.
http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/chat/

OZZIE4DUKE
08-25-2011, 01:55 PM
Travel weary? Had to wait for Ramadan to end before they could eat? Went to a water park before the game*? I expect we'll win the game but this game will not be a work of art.

OK, we're starting to play a bit better, up 25-16 now.

*In high school in Ft. Lauderdale, I went water skiing in the morning once before playing a Saturday afternoon baseball game. My muscles were so worn out, mushy and worthless (no comments from the peanut gallery, devildeac - I'm talking to you!) that playing was extremely tough. I couldn't even swing a bat effectively.

licc85
08-25-2011, 02:10 PM
1st half thoughts:

Austin looks great, best player on the floor.

Mason is playing VERY well. Hes actually holding on to the ball and is being aggressive and opportunistic on offense. I loved the jump hook as well.

Seth and Dre both doing a great job too.

Other than the sloppy ball handling early, we're playing pretty well. Good D for the most part, and hitting the open man on offense. They can't handle us on the boards, and we're getting a lot of run outs off of defensive rebounds. Fun game to watch.

devilsadvocate85
08-25-2011, 02:11 PM
and Sean May in the same place at the same time? If so, I bet it was at a McDonald's.

But, I did see Sean May in Maggiano's at Southpoint in Durham on 8/17

u2umark
08-25-2011, 02:14 PM
Good half so far but I think the starters were a little passive in the first couple of minutes. I expect Austin to dominate the second half ending with about 25 points. Seth needs to be more aggressive in this game. I feel he doesn't feel the sense of urgency he had with the Chinese games.

CDu
08-25-2011, 02:30 PM
The camera just showed a "Krzyzewski Krzucks" sign... twice.

licc85
08-25-2011, 02:47 PM
The camera just showed a "Krzyzewski Krzucks" sign... twice.

I love this camera crew, all they do is find hot girls in the crowd lol

by the way, Gottlieb just called Steve Nash an American . . . nice

Aditya
08-25-2011, 02:55 PM
I love this camera crew, all they do is find hot girls in the crowd lol

by the way, Gottlieb just called Steve Nash an American . . . nice

Yeah there's that one Virginia fan who gets as much face time as anyone.

CDu
08-25-2011, 02:58 PM
Yeah there's that one Virginia fan who gets as much face time as anyone.

She's the one that was holding the Krzyzewski Krzucks sign.

licc85
08-25-2011, 03:01 PM
Yeah there's that one Virginia fan who gets as much face time as anyone.

yeah . . I dunno what's up with that, It bugs me when people go to a game and rep a team who's not even there. Plus, that girl isn't even that hot, maybe a 6 or 7 at best. I saw some real cuties earlier when they were panning around in the 2nd quarter.

Aditya
08-25-2011, 03:03 PM
She's the one that was holding the Krzyzewski Krzucks sign.

Pretty negative for a Virginia fan.

Did anyone else just hear that the players' hotel is seven stars? Since when do hotels have more stars than Ike and MacArthur?

DukeGirl4ever
08-25-2011, 03:03 PM
I'm pretty impressed with Alex Murphy today.
When I first saw that he decided to come to Duke early, I was a bit apprehensive because of our numbers. I didn't really think he would get a lot of PT this season. However, after today I am pleasantly surprised.

I really liked the past couple of minutes when they had Miles, Ryan (or was it Mason? my mind is escaping me now), and Murphy playing together. It gave us some size and I thought we had great spacing.

I thought Marshall would get a bit more PT this game....I could really see a red-shirt year out of him.

BD80
08-25-2011, 03:04 PM
I love this camera crew, all they do is find hot girls in the crowd lol

by the way, Gottlieb just called Steve Nash an American . . . nice

He is North American

licc85
08-25-2011, 03:07 PM
He is North American

Thats like saying Pele is an American because he's south american

Faison1
08-25-2011, 03:14 PM
Score? Stats?

DukieInBrasil
08-25-2011, 03:15 PM
I didn't get to watch the whole game, just the last 40%, so maybe all the energy had been expended in building the large lead, but i was not impressed with Mason, again. He had the ball poked out of his hands after rebounds on multiple occasions, which is good that he got the reb., but he still has problems focusing on the pesky details that make good players better. Plus, he still can't hit FTs, so how can we look to him on offense if the only thing you have to do is foul him to get a defensive stop? I'm liking the Miles/Ryan starting 4/5 combo more and more.
From what i saw and heard from the announcers, it looked like Austin and Dre really had nice games. I liked what i saw from Murphy too. It was nice to see Marshall out there, though he didn't do much. Liked the TT tip-in too.

BD80
08-25-2011, 03:18 PM
Thats like saying Pele is an American because he's south american

Well ...

Isn't he?

I just find the appropriation of the term "American" by US citizens amusing. There are many other residents of the American continents.

bluedevilsince72
08-25-2011, 03:19 PM
The big man from UAE is my new fav player. Can we recruit him? behind the back passes, no looks.

hurleyfor3
08-25-2011, 03:30 PM
Did anyone else just hear that the players' hotel is seven stars? Since when do hotels have more stars than Ike and MacArthur?

It's a marketing thing; whatever hotel is connected to the Burj Dubai has called itself that. No independent rating organization or government agency I know of (governments rate hotels in some countries) goes above five.

licc85
08-25-2011, 03:32 PM
Well ...

Isn't he?

I just find the appropriation of the term "American" by US citizens amusing. There are many other residents of the American continents.

The English term "American" is known throughout the world as a reference to citizens of the United States of America. Citizens of Canada are commonly known as "Canadians." Citizens of south American countries also are referred to by the country of their origin. For example, people from Brazil are known as "Brazilians."

okay, sarcasm aside, here's the first entry in Webster for "American":

American; adj
1. of or pertaining to the United States of America or its inhabitants: an American citizen.

hurleyfor3
08-25-2011, 03:35 PM
Mod note: Thread drift onto topics of semantics will stop NOW; thanks.

gwlaw99
08-25-2011, 03:51 PM
Why does Gottlieb keep referring to Chris Collins as a point guard?

sporthenry
08-25-2011, 04:04 PM
I am enjoying how the roles are starting to come together at this point. At this point, the starters would seem to be Miles, Ryan, Dre, Rivers, and Seth. The good part about this is that we will bring some energy off the bench. I doubt we go 10 deep consistently but it appears that everyone has a unique role which will provide sparks. Mason is still Mason. He hasn't seemed to develop different moves, just perfected more of the same moves but he will provide energy with the likes of getting in the open court and should be matched up against other teams 3rd or 4th big so he should do well in that role. Thornton will have specific games where he will have to slow down some quick guards and will flourish as long as one or two other guys are having great games. I could see him being important in a UNC game where we have to slow down Marshall.

Murphy seems to provide the best instant offense off the bench. So I'd look to him on days when we are in a funk if AR is having an off day or if Dre misses a 3. Hairston won't be relied upon more than to eat minutes but he should be able to keep scores similar at the end of the half when foul trouble sets in. Grinder who will take the charge and get some boards but won't provide much offensively. G seems to be the furthest behind. I though he might be able to provide some energy with his long body on the defensive end and his athleticism on the offensive end but I suspect he seems to be odd man out at this point. Could possibly see him get some time against HB but I fear he will look outclassed but perhaps it was just nerves.

And then you have Cook who could provide real offense from a PG standpoint who with our offense off the ball would really make Duke a force for the 20 minutes or so that Cook could play. Not expecting too much from him b/c he is a freshman so anything he does is icing.

NovaScotian
08-25-2011, 04:07 PM
She's the one that was holding the Krzyzewski Krzucks sign.

to be correct, the sign read: "Krzyeikh Krzyzewski Krzucks." by far the best sign from an opposing fan in my lifetime.

Duvall
08-25-2011, 04:15 PM
to be correct, the sign read: "Krzyeikh Krzyzewski Krzucks." by far the best sign from an opposing fan in my lifetime.

Yeah, but it doesn't work. Sheikh Shashefski shucks?

loldevilz
08-25-2011, 04:16 PM
I am enjoying how the roles are starting to come together at this point. At this point, the starters would seem to be Miles, Ryan, Dre, Rivers, and Seth. The good part about this is that we will bring some energy off the bench. I doubt we go 10 deep consistently but it appears that everyone has a unique role which will provide sparks. Mason is still Mason. He hasn't seemed to develop different moves, just perfected more of the same moves but he will provide energy with the likes of getting in the open court and should be matched up against other teams 3rd or 4th big so he should do well in that role. Thornton will have specific games where he will have to slow down some quick guards and will flourish as long as one or two other guys are having great games. I could see him being important in a UNC game where we have to slow down Marshall.

Murphy seems to provide the best instant offense off the bench. So I'd look to him on days when we are in a funk if AR is having an off day or if Dre misses a 3. Hairston won't be relied upon more than to eat minutes but he should be able to keep scores similar at the end of the half when foul trouble sets in. Grinder who will take the charge and get some boards but won't provide much offensively. G seems to be the furthest behind. I though he might be able to provide some energy with his long body on the defensive end and his athleticism on the offensive end but I suspect he seems to be odd man out at this point. Could possibly see him get some time against HB but I fear he will look outclassed but perhaps it was just nerves.

And then you have Cook who could provide real offense from a PG standpoint who with our offense off the ball would really make Duke a force for the 20 minutes or so that Cook could play. Not expecting too much from him b/c he is a freshman so anything he does is icing.

I think that Hairston will be much more important when Duke hits undersized mobile frontcourts like Arizona and Virginia Tech last year. Kelly and Miles in particular really get eaten up by those type of teams. Not to mention we have a bunch of bigs that seem to get a kick out of pointlessly fouling the other team so he will be needed for foul trouble situations.

ACCBBallFan
08-25-2011, 04:17 PM
I am enjoying how the roles are starting to come together at this point. At this point, the starters would seem to be Miles, Ryan, Dre, Rivers, and Seth. The good part about this is that we will bring some energy off the bench. I doubt we go 10 deep consistently but it appears that everyone has a unique role which will provide sparks. Mason is still Mason. He hasn't seemed to develop different moves, just perfected more of the same moves but he will provide energy with the likes of getting in the open court and should be matched up against other teams 3rd or 4th big so he should do well in that role. Thornton will have specific games where he will have to slow down some quick guards and will flourish as long as one or two other guys are having great games. I could see him being important in a UNC game where we have to slow down Marshall.

Murphy seems to provide the best instant offense off the bench. So I'd look to him on days when we are in a funk if AR is having an off day or if Dre misses a 3. Hairston won't be relied upon more than to eat minutes but he should be able to keep scores similar at the end of the half when foul trouble sets in. Grinder who will take the charge and get some boards but won't provide much offensively. G seems to be the furthest behind. I though he might be able to provide some energy with his long body on the defensive end and his athleticism on the offensive end but I suspect he seems to be odd man out at this point. Could possibly see him get some time against HB but I fear he will look outclassed but perhaps it was just nerves.

And then you have Cook who could provide real offense from a PG standpoint who with our offense off the ball would really make Duke a force for the 20 minutes or so that Cook could play. Not expecting too much from him b/c he is a freshman so anything he does is icing.

Yes a good game for development as the top 3 guys Ryan, Miles and Seth took it easy on UAE.

4th and 5th starters Dre and Austin played well, and 6th and 7th guys Mason and Alex showed some spurts of confidence.

Other than the tip-in, Tyler regressed a bit. As Gottlieb said, he plays best in muscle games, as does Miles.

Not much from silent G or Josh and cameo appearance at end by Marshall.

Would have been the game to feature 3 Plums on floor at same time (may be saving that for UNC Greensboro or Presybterian or senior night) but Duke played too sloppily to keep lead much above 20.

NovaScotian
08-25-2011, 04:26 PM
Yeah, but it doesn't work. Sheikh Shashefski shucks?

i'm willing to forgive it - i've never seen alliteration look so wrong and sound so right. i'm also hoping it will inspire Krzyzewski's Chefs to changes their names to Krzyzewski's Krzyeikhs. Perhaps with some culturally insensitive costumes to go along. Thoughts?

Biscuit King
08-25-2011, 04:34 PM
A better sign was: "SADDAM IS A DUKE FAN"

(circa 1991 at Reynolds coliseum)

lotusland
08-25-2011, 04:39 PM
yeah . . I dunno what's up with that, It bugs me when people go to a game and rep a team who's not even there. Plus, that girl isn't even that hot, maybe a 6 or 7 at best. I saw some real cuties earlier when they were panning around in the 2nd quarter. I wasn't able to watch the game very closely but I did tell someone on the phone that Eva Longoria and all of her sisters were at the game.

loldevilz
08-25-2011, 04:52 PM
Rivers looked like a totally different player today. I definitely thought he looked like the best player on the floor. They couldn't stop him off the dribble and he shot the ball really well today.

Mason showed glimpses of real post moves. He did a nice step through and got fouled. He had a jump hook. He also had a ridiculous put back dunk which was really Blake Griffin like. As good as this was to see, I thought he defense was so bad that he shouldn't have been playing. Multiple times he go so far out he was literally the farthest person from the basket.

I was very pleased with Murphy. He is a great slasher. So far though, he really has not shot the ball well. I don't think he hit more than two free throws the entire time. I think his shot will come around and he will really push Dawkins for minutes.

I also was pleased with Hairston. I don't think he will just be a minutes eater. When Duke plays against smaller and mobile frontcourts he will be valuable as a defensive stopper. Remember he is basically a freshman as he got almost no minutes last year.

Finally, Duke is still has a lot to work on. Duke gave up so many transition baskets today. You can't allow that to happen in NCAA play. Not to mention there were tons of missed dunks, stripped rebounds, stupid fouls. The defense was superb at times, but also unwatchable at times. When this team learns to string possessions together I think they will be a force.

lotusland
08-25-2011, 05:13 PM
I just knew someone would rant on here in response to Gottlieb's snarky comments about Wojo coaching the bigs.

killerleft
08-25-2011, 05:44 PM
Yeah, but it doesn't work. Sheikh Shashefski shucks?

:D I just assumed that Virginia fan= drunk.

BD80
08-25-2011, 06:06 PM
Mod note: Thread drift onto topics of semantics will stop NOW; thanks.

No problem. I don't even know where Semanta is

sporthenry
08-26-2011, 12:50 AM
I think that Hairston will be much more important when Duke hits undersized mobile frontcourts like Arizona and Virginia Tech last year. Kelly and Miles in particular really get eaten up by those type of teams. Not to mention we have a bunch of bigs that seem to get a kick out of pointlessly fouling the other team so he will be needed for foul trouble situations.

Well no doubt he will be useful in foul trouble situations but I look forward to Kelly being more agile this year. Those extra pounds he took off should help and while I remember him getting beat off the bounce once in the first televised Chinese game, I still expect him to improve on that. In addition, Hairston doesn't exactly seem to be the quickest guy in the world. I'm sure he will help guard some quicker 4 men b/c he will provide 5 more fouls but I don't foresee him shutting down the likes of Terrence Jones off the dribble.

sporthenry
08-26-2011, 12:56 AM
Yes a good game for development as the top 3 guys Ryan, Miles and Seth took it easy on UAE.

4th and 5th starters Dre and Austin played well, and 6th and 7th guys Mason and Alex showed some spurts of confidence.

Other than the tip-in, Tyler regressed a bit. As Gottlieb said, he plays best in muscle games, as does Miles.

Not much from silent G or Josh and cameo appearance at end by Marshall.

Would have been the game to feature 3 Plums on floor at same time (may be saving that for UNC Greensboro or Presybterian or senior night) but Duke played too sloppily to keep lead much above 20.

Well I think Thornton looked the most disinterested out there for whatever reason as the team had a ton of reasons to be off their game. Add that to the type of up and down game and I agree it doesn't fit him too well. But that is why I think K could got 9-10 deep but not consistently. Meaning, when we are having trouble initiating offense and AR is having some freshman issues and we are getting burned by the opposing team's PG, we plug in TT to provide a spark off the bench and let Seth work off ball. However, in other games, I suspect TT will only play to give Seth a bit of a breather when all goes well. So I think the bench apart from Mason will all have good games but also games where they seemingly disappear either through not playing or not being involved much in the action.

licc85
08-26-2011, 01:06 AM
Agree or disagree?: Once the rotation is established, Alex Murphy will become the 7th man. I think he brings a lot to the table, he just needs a bit more game experience.

oldnavy
08-26-2011, 06:30 AM
I've got all their names and ages and am currently working on their heights and weights. I hope to have a post up tomorrow with all their info...

Remember, the UAE uses the European standard cinderblocks, so you must us a correction factor on the heights.

DukieInBrasil
08-26-2011, 08:20 AM
I also was pleased with Hairston. I don't think he will just be a minutes eater. When Duke plays against smaller and mobile frontcourts he will be valuable as a defensive stopper. Remember he is basically a freshman as he got almost no minutes last year.


No, Hairston is very much a Sophomore, as he was on the team the entire year last year, played in nearly all of the games, learned a lot, grew some more and is looking to contribute a lot more than last year.
This idea that someone is basically a year behind their actual year just cuz they didn't start or play huge minutes is not helpful. Is Miles basically just a Jr. cuz he only played about as much as Josh did as a Freshmen? Is Ryan basically just a So. cuz he only played about as much as Josh as Freshmen? No.

sagegrouse
08-26-2011, 08:49 AM
Watching now inasmuch as I stupidly forgot to set the DVR yesterday AM. Good quality line-of-sight from the Emerald Mountain tower of the renowned mountain ISP, Zirkel Wireless. (May have to trim the Gambel Oaks in my yard if reception suffers.)

sagegrouse

CDu
08-26-2011, 09:24 AM
I also was pleased with Hairston. I don't think he will just be a minutes eater. When Duke plays against smaller and mobile frontcourts he will be valuable as a defensive stopper. Remember he is basically a freshman as he got almost no minutes last year.

People keep saying this about Hairston (I've seen Lance Thomas references before), but he doesn't really seem to be a quick guy. I don't see Hairston having that skill set really. And I'll be fairly surprised if he plays major minutes this year. He didn't play much last year, and none of the guys in front of him have left (and at least two of the three in front of him are showing signs of big improvement). I don't really see him as any sort of upgrade over Kelly against quicker bigs.

I just don't see Hairston getting more than 8-12mpg this year. I think Miles/Mason/Kelly will get around 70mpg, and I think Murphy could get some minutes at the 4 in a change-of-pace lineup.

CDu
08-26-2011, 09:30 AM
Agree or disagree?: Once the rotation is established, Alex Murphy will become the 7th man. I think he brings a lot to the table, he just needs a bit more game experience.

Depends on what you mean by 7th man, but my guess would be disagree. The top six will be Curry/Rivers/Dawkins/Kelly/Mason/Miles. After that, I'd put the backup guard as next, so I'd say Thornton or Cook will be the 7th man. Murphy would be the 8th, and could get similar minutes to that of Thornton/Cook.

gumbomoop
08-26-2011, 09:42 AM
I come away from the 3 televised games with many more positives than negatives.

Expect occasional games of astonishing 3-bombs from Seth and Andre. I wonder whether a few times this season those 2 plus Ryan and Austin will all be on fire in the same game.

Miles's energy seems a bit more disciplined than previously. He should have a few really strong offensive rebound games. He and Mason will block some shots from the weak side.

Like several posters, I'm impressed with Murphy's smarts, slashing, movement. I wouldn't claim he "gets it" at a level Kyle showed from the very beginning, but he gets it enough to help.

I don't expect Tyler to have a great season, but I do expect him to disrupt opponents in some games, which would be great.

Mason's passing.

But..... a few negatives, too. "Concerns," put it that way.

Mason, for some unfathomable reason, gets stripped far too often and easily after a defensive rebound. This is but one example of his lack of good court sense. I assume the staff has seen this weakness, and will help him work on it, a lot. Also troubling is the fact that Mason's passing may be his strongest offensive weapon. Back in the summer of 2009, I posted several times that Duke would be very good in '09-'10.... because Mason Plumlee was so good. I was obviously wrong. Although I expect this season to be wowed, again and again, by his athleticism, I'd really prefer to be calmed by his consistency.

Miles, for some equally unfathomable reason, gives away guaranteed points with his ill-considered one-handed thunder-dunk misses on put-backs. "Irritating" hardly does justice to my response to this crap.

I didn't expect MGb to look quite so lost out there. I had posted more than once that he was sleeper-good, and would help a lot this year. Still hope so, hope that it's just a matter of the big jump up to college-level. Per conversations on several threads this summer, it would help to have a solid 6'6"-ish guy on D. Btw, remember the question re his height? Does he look 6'6" or 6'8"?

Edit: Forgot the obvious: FT-shooting. 3Ms - Miles, Mason, Murphy - have to contribute free points. Shooting 40-50% in close games is a killer.

Back to the positive: Gottlieb was wrong, if unsurprisingly snarky, in labeling Duke "a top-15, maybe top-10 team." Duke is easily - easily - top 15, and no-maybe-about-it, consensus preseason top 7. I'd give 'em #5-6. Too many weapons, even with the flaws.

lotusland
08-26-2011, 09:51 AM
Agree or disagree?: Once the rotation is established, Alex Murphy will become the 7th man. I think he brings a lot to the table, he just needs a bit more game experience.

Well assuming whichever Plum doesn't start is our 6th man I would put Tyler in the 7th position. Also I think Josh will be a regular 5+ MPG player and occasionally more depending on foul trouble. It's possible that Murphey ends up averaging more MPG than Josh but I think he'll also have more DNP games. For that reason I would list Murphey currently 9th. I'd rank the backup 3 position as the most hotly contested spot between Murphey and sG with the current advantage going to Murphey. Defense will probably play bigger role in MPG for the frosh once the season starts so sG could still end up on top. You have to think MP3 and QC are 11th and 12th in the rotation at this point and not likely to contribute much unless guys get injured ahead of them. Obviously QC is more of a wildcard if he comes back healthy and beats Tyler out for back-up PG but to me it seems unlikely that he will beat out an experienced contributor like TT as a freshman coming off an injury.

UrinalCake
08-26-2011, 10:02 AM
Miles, for some equally unfathomable reason, gives away guaranteed points with his ill-considered one-handed thunder-dunk misses on put-backs. "Irritating" hardly does justice to my response to this crap.

Mason does it too, and it's not just on put-backs but on alley-oops and contested dunks. They try to bring the house down with a nearly impossible slam that works maybe 1 out of 20 times instead of taking the lay-in. I like the aggressiveness but they both need to manage it better at times.

Free throw shooting was poor from the whole team, I'd guess around 50%, though I suppose it's somewhat forgivable given the environment.

The two opponents we've seen gave us two completely different looks. I think we've seen that our team has the versatility to match up with nearly anyone. We haven't yet faced the "big, athletic wing/forward" that so often gives us trouble, but I still feel pretty encouraged with what I saw.

CDu
08-26-2011, 10:28 AM
I come away from the 3 televised games with many more positives than negatives.

But..... a few negatives, too. "Concerns," put it that way.

Back to the positive: Gottlieb was wrong, if unsurprisingly snarky, in labeling Duke "a top-15, maybe top-10 team." Duke is easily - easily - top 15, and no-maybe-about-it, consensus preseason top 7. I'd give 'em #5-6. Too many weapons, even with the flaws.

I agree with your post here. I'll also add some positives/concerns.

Positives:
- Rivers showed signs of his tremendous ability to attack off the dribble
- Kelly looks more fluid and more confident (albeit against slower comp)
- Murphy looks like he could develop into a useful, high-energy 3/4 in situational minutes off the bench this year

Concerns:
- Still questions about the PG play. Curry doesn't seem comfortable creating for others, Rivers is still a work in progress in terms of decisionmaking, Thornton just doesn't have the offensive skill to create offense for others, and Cook is still an unknown due to the injury
- Still not sure that we have a back-to-the-basket offensive presence
- Rivers showed some questionable attitude when things didn't go smoothly in China, and I think it affected his game on both ends. He's going to need to improve on that area, because there are going to be times this year when things don't go smoothly for him

CDu
08-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Mason does it too, and it's not just on put-backs but on alley-oops and contested dunks. They try to bring the house down with a nearly impossible slam that works maybe 1 out of 20 times instead of taking the lay-in. I like the aggressiveness but they both need to manage it better at times.

Free throw shooting was poor from the whole team, I'd guess around 50%, though I suppose it's somewhat forgivable given the environment.

The two opponents we've seen gave us two completely different looks. I think we've seen that our team has the versatility to match up with nearly anyone. We haven't yet faced the "big, athletic wing/forward" that so often gives us trouble, but I still feel pretty encouraged with what I saw.

Yeah, the Plumlees both seem to have a bad habit of trying to make the highlight play rather than the smart play. Perhaps it's because neither has much confidence in their touch around the basket. Perhaps they're concerned that they'll get blocked otherwise. Or perhaps it's just a sign of not good court awareness/instincts. In any case, it's frustrating. As is their free throw shooting.

gumbomoop
08-26-2011, 10:36 AM
Mason does it too, and it's not just on put-backs but on alley-oops and contested dunks. They try to bring the house down with a nearly impossible slam that works maybe 1 out of 20 times instead of taking the lay-in.

Yes, you're right. I seem to have been too soft on both Miles and Mason. Their smart - and dumb - play is one of several keys to our season. Thunder-dunk stuff plays to the crowd, but I doubt it wins many games.

UrinalCake
08-26-2011, 10:48 AM
They're kind of like the anti-Zoubek - I used to scream at him through the television to just dunk the ball instead of putting up a weak layup that would be blocked by a smaller guy. What we really need is a player who always knows exactly when a dunk will work an exactly when it won't, with 100% accuracy :)

gumbomoop
08-26-2011, 10:57 AM
You know, as long as we're helping Wojo coach the Plumlees, allow me to suggest that I find it disconcertingly necessary to curse too regularly at all those "rhythm dribbles" right next to the basket. Bigs are coached, I hope, to not "collect yourself" by bringing the ball to the floor, which has far better odds of ending badly than well: steals, walks, 3-second, fumble, defensive help, block. Bleecccchhhh. Keep it high, put it in immediately.

CDu
08-26-2011, 11:06 AM
You know, as long as we're helping Wojo coach the Plumlees, allow me to suggest that I find it disconcertingly necessary to curse too regularly at all those "rhythm dribbles" right next to the basket. Bigs are coached, I hope, to not "collect yourself" by bringing the ball to the floor, which has far better odds of ending badly than well: steals, walks, 3-second, fumble, defensive help, block. Bleecccchhhh. Keep it high, put it in immediately.

Yeah, I think those dribbles are a function of bad footwork. I think both Plumlees are guilty of really bad footwork/balance. I think that's the culprit for their lack of fluid post moves and Mason's traveling calls. Those dribbles allow them to shuffle their feet and regain balance.

But they do result in more opportunity for bad things to happen. Especially when you don't have "strong hands" (because people have more opportunities for the strip) and you're a bad free throw shooter (because there are more opportunities for recovery fouls). But they often also get themselves too far under the basket and allow the backboard/rim to serve as an extra defender and provide a better opportunity for defenders to get the block.

Kedsy
08-26-2011, 09:43 PM
I was very pleased with Murphy. He is a great slasher. So far though, he really has not shot the ball well. I don't think he hit more than two free throws the entire time. I think his shot will come around and he will really push Dawkins for minutes.

Alex may get some minutes (as the 8th guy in the rotation) but Andre will get all the minutes he can handle. If you're suggesting Alex will challenge Andre for the starting position or the primary minute-getter at the 3, then I completely disagree.

From what we've seen so far (plus common sense as Andre is a junior and Alex is a freshman), Andre is the clearly superior player compared to Alex.


Agree or disagree?: Once the rotation is established, Alex Murphy will become the 7th man. I think he brings a lot to the table, he just needs a bit more game experience.

I'm with others on the "disagree" side. Alex seems poised to become the 8th man in the rotation. Unless Josh or one of the non-Austin freshmen beat Alex out for the 8th spot (in which case Alex would sink to 9th). Tyler (or possibly Quinn, though I'd be surprised) will most likely be the 7th man in the rotation.

Kedsy
08-26-2011, 09:44 PM
Box score: https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/781417.pdf?ATCLID=205250247&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200

CDu
08-26-2011, 10:03 PM
Box score: https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/781417.pdf?ATCLID=205250247&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200

The stats sort of reflect our incredible size advantage inside (3-5 inch edge at each post spot). Mason got 17 points and 15 rebounds (7 offensive) while Miles and Kelly added another 13 rebounds. It seems like Mason took Miles's place as the Plumlee getting all the dunks. And Kelly didn't get as many looks, resulting in only 6 points. I suspect it'll be that kind of season early on - up and down performances from the Plumlees and occasional (hopefully frequent) big shooting nights for Kelly. Hopefully at least one of the three can step up with more consistency. If not, hopefully at least 2 of the 3 have a decent game every night.

The guard play was again sloppy (5 assists and 10 turnovers from our three primary ballhandlers) and the team had 22 turnovers. Part of that was the lack of preparation for this game (supposedly the team took it easy in terms of preparing for UAE, instead enjoying the area). But it's not like the ballhandling was crisp in China either.

Monster shooting night from Dawkins and a nice game from Rivers (though it'd be nice to see an A/TO ratio of above one instead of 0.5, and it'd be nice to see a few more of those drives finished). Curry was "meh" and Thornton was not very good.

Newton_14
08-26-2011, 10:07 PM
Yeah, the Plumlees both seem to have a bad habit of trying to make the highlight play rather than the smart play. Perhaps it's because neither has much confidence in their touch around the basket. Perhaps they're concerned that they'll get blocked otherwise. Or perhaps it's just a sign of not good court awareness/instincts. In any case, it's frustrating. As is their free throw shooting.

Miles does it more than Mason, but I think you are on to something here with reasoning. For whatever reason, I have never gotten the impression that it was a show off thing. I think like you allude to above, it is a combination of comfort/discomfort, brain freeze (aka court awareness), and aggressiveness. Concerning the latter, and in fairness to both guys, I heard Jason Williams say it during the UNCG game last year, and Gottlieb said it 4 or 5 times in China, that the coaching staff has been stressing with the Plum's that they should try to dunk everything around the basket. That is good when making a power post-move close to the basket, but can be bad in tip-in situations which we have seen. I would imagine it would be hard to turn the switch on and off, when the directive from the staff is to dunk aggressively.

A definite work in progress, but overall I thought Miles played well in China, and Mason had several good moments as well. Once we get back in the USA with normal schedules/routines, normal basketballs, and college rules, I think we will see improvements from every single guy on the team. This trip was great and will prove invaluable before all is said and done.

Concerning "normal schedules/routines", for those that don't know, the team went to a Water Park on game day in Dubai. That had to have been a negative impact to their conditioning during the game there.

loldevilz
08-27-2011, 12:45 AM
Alex may get some minutes (as the 8th guy in the rotation) but Andre will get all the minutes he can handle. If you're suggesting Alex will challenge Andre for the starting position or the primary minute-getter at the 3, then I completely disagree.

From what we've seen so far (plus common sense as Andre is a junior and Alex is a freshman), Andre is the clearly superior player compared to Alex.


The small forward position demands versatility. You need someone who can defend, someone who can rebound, someone who can pass. Dawkins hovers around the three point line waiting for someone to pass him the ball. That's his entire game. On defense he hangs off guys. He doesn't get in the passing lanes or try to force turnovers. I know that I don't want Dawkins guarding Harrison Barnes for 35 minutes and I definitely don't want to see him guarding the 3 in the NCAA tournament. It was bad enough last year watching Duke get torched by Michigan and Arizona when we went small.

CDu
08-27-2011, 09:58 AM
The small forward position demands versatility. You need someone who can defend, someone who can rebound, someone who can pass. Dawkins hovers around the three point line waiting for someone to pass him the ball. That's his entire game. On defense he hangs off guys. He doesn't get in the passing lanes or try to force turnovers. I know that I don't want Dawkins guarding Harrison Barnes for 35 minutes and I definitely don't want to see him guarding the 3 in the NCAA tournament. It was bad enough last year watching Duke get torched by Michigan and Arizona when we went small.

Dawkins has his flaws (though I think you've overstated them here). But I don't want a freshman Murphy or Gbinije guarding Barnes for 35 minutes either.

sagegrouse
08-27-2011, 10:51 AM
The small forward position demands versatility. You need someone who can defend, someone who can rebound, someone who can pass. Dawkins hovers around the three point line waiting for someone to pass him the ball. That's his entire game.

This is a canard -- and it isn't like it hasn't been discussed 20 times before. Andre is told how to play in the offense, and he does. He is the best shooter on the team and has JJ-like range. I think he is a versatile player whose skills have not been entirely used -- until this year, I believe. He is strong and athletic and can get to the rim. Dawkins will be playing basketball for a long time. BTW doesn't Andre's alleged sin of sticking to one spot on the court the same set-up as Shane Battier, JJ and countless others in the NBA?


On defense he hangs off guys. He doesn't get in the passing lanes or try to force turnovers. I know that I don't want Dawkins guarding Harrison Barnes for 35 minutes and I definitely don't want to see him guarding the 3 in the NCAA tournament. It was bad enough last year watching Duke get torched by Michigan and Arizona when we went small.

It would be great to have Kyle back for a fifth season, or to have Murphy or Gbinije develop a year or two ahead of schedule. But very few college teams, even in the loftier brackets of the NCAAs, have three offensive threats of 6-7/6-8 or taller on the court at the same time. In fact, most college teams seem to start three guards. The difficulty for Duke is that one of the taller teams is our rival. I thought Andre did a fine job against Barnes last year, in short stretches. We'll see how he has improved, and then I guess the coaches get to devise a scheme to give him and others some help against HB.

sagegrouse

rocketeli
08-27-2011, 11:02 AM
Finally got a chance to watch 2 of the games (last China and Dubai)on the DVR. (I haven't read every post on the trip, so I might be repeating something already said-sorry)
Thoughts:
1.The Duke coaching staff was clearly not interested in providing a free, extensive scouting report to opposing teams--so offensive sets especially were kept very basic and players were allowed to do things they won't be allowed to do in regular games.

2.Austin Rivers is talented but he's no Kyrie Irving. How "coachable" he turns out to be will have a big impact on how well both Duke and he do this season. I'll bet that Coach K as already preumptively "involved" Doc Rivers in the plans to avoid any ego clashes over how Austin should be developed.

3.Duke could have beaten the Chinese Jr team by 40+ points every game--Coach K was obviously sensitive to the public relations side of the trip (he works closely with Fuqua) and called off the dogs whenever the score got too face-affectingly lopsided.

4.I wouldn't worry for two seconds about any foul totals for any Duke player in China. The officials clearly knew what country the games were played in.

5.Given the above--I think there is no reason to ruminate about Dawkins just hanging out looking for threes, Plumlees doing crazy things, etc--these facts derive from the points above.

Kedsy
08-27-2011, 02:09 PM
The small forward position demands versatility. You need someone who can defend, someone who can rebound, someone who can pass. Dawkins hovers around the three point line waiting for someone to pass him the ball. That's his entire game. On defense he hangs off guys. He doesn't get in the passing lanes or try to force turnovers. I know that I don't want Dawkins guarding Harrison Barnes for 35 minutes and I definitely don't want to see him guarding the 3 in the NCAA tournament. It was bad enough last year watching Duke get torched by Michigan and Arizona when we went small.

I hear what you're saying, though I disagree with your conclusions. Bottom line, though, is what you "want" (or what I want) is not particularly relevant. In reality it's very unlikely that Alex Murphy will become the primary SF for Duke this year over Andre Dawkins. Andre will play big minutes and Alex probably won't.

As far as how well Andre can guard HB, personally I'm not that worried. Unless HB has developed serious post moves we didn't see last year. Mostly, from what I saw, HB seemed to be a jump shooter, and I believe Andre can keep his hand in HB's face as well as Alex or Mike. To the extent that HB has added a dribble-drive to his game (and it wouldn't surprise me if he has), I doubt Andre's on-ball ability to stop the drive will be any worse than Alex's or Mike's, either. And if HB does post up, it's going to be awfully crowded down there with Zeller and Henson and their defenders, so that doesn't sound like it would be a huge advantage for HB, either.

Greg_Newton
08-27-2011, 03:04 PM
I'm in the camp that believes Dre will be our starting SF, but I wouldn't be so quick to Dismiss Murphy based on a few late August games in China. He brings an important element to the table that no one else on our team does, and early practice reports were saying that he was pushing Dre for the starting spot.

If he can adjust reasonably well over the next 6 months and avoid the freshman wall, I'm hopeful that he'll be a major part of the rotation (15-20 mpg?), probably with a few big games and a few no-shows.

gumbomoop
08-27-2011, 04:41 PM
[V]ery few college teams, even in the loftier brackets of the NCAAs, have three offensive threats of 6-7/6-8 or taller on the court at the same time. In fact, most college teams seem to start three guards. The difficulty for Duke is...our rival.... Barnes.

I second both points here.

(1) In some ways we posters talk past each other re the issue of "SF" v. "wings." I think sagegrouse is correct in saying most college teams play 3 guards. If that's accurate, then most teams simply don't have a default SF position at all. As with Duke, they have on the court, most of the time, 2 "bigs," plus 3 "perimeter" players, consisting of 2 "wings" and a PG. [Duke, obviously in 2009-'10 and some of the time in 2011-'12, played/will play a "combo" guard at PG.]

(2) But UNC is a crucial exception and thus a big problem, for which there may or may not be a "solution"-defender. That depends on a point made by Kedsy:


Unless HB has developed serious post moves..... HB seemed to be a jump shooter.... To the extent that HB has added a dribble-drive to his game (and it wouldn't surprise me if he has)....

Several of us have posted on various threads that we hope HB failed miserably at his summer task of significantly improving his handle [CP3 camp]. If Barnes has substantially - not just minimally - improved his handle, wow. If he now understands that he must not settle for jumpers - and doesn't have to, because he can take his defender off the dribble - wow, bad news. But in that event, even an experienced, taller, strong defender would have trouble. At least Andre has a little experience trying to stay with HB. If Barnes is noticeably more skilled than last season, he is a problem to which there is no solution. Have to hope he has an off-night.

Per Jderf's Law, all threads reduce, in the end, to Duke v. Carolina. I'd say the issue of needing a solid defender at the "SF" definitely tends to fall into Jderf's Law territory. For example, and by contrast with another strong opponent, I don't yet know who will play tOSU's wing opposite William Buford. [Hard to imagine Matta would play 3 "bigs," given that Sullinger counts for 2 bigs all by his lonesome.] Perhaps one of their lanky frosh recruits. But even one of those 6'7" fellows wouldn't pose a Barnes-level problem.

sagegrouse
08-27-2011, 07:26 PM
I second both points here.

(1) In some ways we posters talk past each other re the issue of "SF" v. "wings." I think sagegrouse is correct in saying most college teams play 3 guards. If that's accurate, then most teams simply don't have a default SF position at all. As with Duke, they have on the court, most of the time, 2 "bigs," plus 3 "perimeter" players, consisting of 2 "wings" and a PG. [Duke, obviously in 2009-'10 and some of the time in 2011-'12, played/will play a "combo" guard at PG.]



Thanks for your kind remarks.

It's not just the three guard tendencies. The other point about the three biggest players on an opponent is that there are very few teams with three players with size on the court where ALL THREE are offensive threats. Heck, at Duke, with Zoubek and LT, we resembled that remark.

sagegrouse

gumbomoop
08-27-2011, 11:55 PM
It's not just the three guard tendencies. The other point about the three biggest players on an opponent is that there are very few teams with three players with size on the court where ALL THREE are offensive threats. Heck, at Duke, with Zoubek and LT, we resembled that remark.

Very true, and all the more reason to face squarely the fact that UNC is loaded. For no matter which 2 of their primary 3 inside/bigs [McAdoo being the 3d] join HB on the court, the Heels will have 3 offensive threats from "players with size." As you implied in your previous post, HB is actually a perimeter-wing who may legitimately be called a "3-SF," but a tall, powerful 3-SF. He could easily play 4-PF, and I suppose had either Henson or Zeller departed, he'd have been called on to do that at times. That he will not have to do so - absent any injuries - speaks to the impressive experience, depth, and talent of this season's Heels. Beating them will be difficult and rewarding.

Beyond the Heels, I wonder what other teams meet the demanding criterion you've set forth. UK maybe? UConn, now that Drummond has signed on? Baylor?

sagegrouse
08-28-2011, 12:15 AM
Very true, and all the more reason to face squarely the fact that UNC is loaded. For no matter which 2 of their primary 3 inside/bigs [McAdoo being the 3d] join HB on the court, the Heels will have 3 offensive threats from "players with size." As you implied in your previous post, HB is actually a perimeter-wing who may legitimately be called a "3-SF," but a tall, powerful 3-SF. He could easily play 4-PF, and I suppose had either Henson or Zeller departed, he'd have been called on to do that at times. That he will not have to do so - absent any injuries - speaks to the impressive experience, depth, and talent of this season's Heels. Beating them will be difficult and rewarding.

Beyond the Heels, I wonder what other teams meet the demanding criterion you've set forth. UK maybe? UConn, now that Drummond has signed on? Baylor?

For worry-wart UNC fans (usually about one-half the fans at any school) there are beaucoup concerns going into 2012. Take UNC's last seven games, for example. It was amazing that the Heels survived to the finals of the ACC, given that they barely led either Miami or Clemson and had to have a miracle finish to beat the Tigers. Then UNC failed to show up against Duke in the finals. In the NCAAs, I thought UNC was unimpressive against both Long Island and UDub -- both games in Charlotte. The Heels thumped Marquette (their only good performance of the stretch), only to lose to a much younger Kentucky team in the regional finals.

UNC hasn't had the uber-competitive player that inspires his teammates. As a result, the team seemed almost lackadaisical at times -- like against Duke in the ACCs.

I will never sell an opponent short. There is no denying the talent down the road, and the infusion of even more talent could create a much better chemistry. You also have to believe that Kendall Marshall may more forcefully take the reins. And, of course, HB could live up to his promise -- and the same with Henson. And while we have fun with Ol' Roy's mannerisms and statements, he can coach.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
08-28-2011, 10:38 AM
For worry-wart UNC fans (usually about one-half the fans at any school) there are beaucoup concerns going into 2012. Take UNC's last seven games, for example. It was amazing that the Heels survived to the finals of the ACC, given that they barely led either Miami or Clemson and had to have a miracle finish to beat the Tigers. Then UNC failed to show up against Duke in the finals. In the NCAAs, I thought UNC was unimpressive against both Long Island and UDub -- both games in Charlotte. The Heels thumped Marquette (their only good performance of the stretch), only to lose to a much younger Kentucky team in the regional finals.

It wasn't just the last seven games. In the eight games before that, UNC had a two-point win against Florida State, a two point win at home against BC, a two point win over Clemson, and a loss to Duke. Thus in their last 15 games, the Heels had three losses and six games that went down to the last seconds (with five of the six against unranked opponents). Hardly dominant.

moonpie23
08-28-2011, 10:46 AM
i'd love to jump on the tarholes as well, but many MANY great bb games are won by just a couple of points by great teams.....i don't think that points to how weak or strong a team is....

they got it done on all those close games.....

Kedsy
08-28-2011, 11:17 AM
i'd love to jump on the tarholes as well, but many MANY great bb games are won by just a couple of points by great teams.....i don't think that points to how weak or strong a team is....

they got it done on all those close games.....

It's true that a lot of great games are won by great teams by only a couple points, but if a team is consistently playing even with supposedly inferior competition that says something beyond "they got it done."

It also says something if a significant number of your games go down to the last seconds and you win every one. Actually it says two things. First, it says that you have the ability to take and make the big shot and play crunch time defense, which is clearly a plus for the Heels. The other thing, I'd liken to the baseball concept of BABIP (batting average on balls in play). Over time, BABIP should be close to the same for every major league quality player. If someone has a significantly stronger (or weaker) BABIP than the average, it probably means his batting average does not accurately reflect his skill, and will most likely revert to the mean at some point. In other words, if UNC continues to play those down-to-the-wire games in 2011-12, I predict their luck will even out.

jipops
08-28-2011, 09:02 PM
I think one would have to be somewhat encouraged by the fact that the UAE game was played at a rather fast pace, yet the UAE shooting % ended up being quite low. Still, I didn't like the looks they were getting in the paint even as a small team. I think the defense has promise but there is work to be done, as with everything else.

With the decent amount of depth it would make sense to maintain a quick pace and have a relatively high number of possessions. But with what appears to currently be an issue with taking care of the ball, I do wonder if this is actually a good idea. I do think we are going to be a team that turns it over a lot, at least at the beginning of the season. Seth doesn't always appear to have control of the ball, especially when he's trying to move it quickly in traffic down court. And Tyler has the same problem as well. I think most of us would hate to see a slow paced offense, but I don't know what solutions are going to be available to resolve this. Mason at mid-court or the high post seems to work well in terms of distribution and moving the ball around. Kelly can certainly help there as well as score so that gives us two bigs that are not at all disastrous when putting the ball on the floor.

I think there is a lot of figure out in regards to what the offense is going to look like.