PDA

View Full Version : Brawl In G'Town vs China



dukeblue1206
08-18-2011, 10:29 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/photos-of-georgetown-brawl-in-china/2011/08/18/gIQApHsVNJ_blog.html

Stay classy G'Town

slower
08-18-2011, 10:35 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/photos-of-georgetown-brawl-in-china/2011/08/18/gIQApHsVNJ_blog.html

Stay classy G'Town

Georgetown has always been filled with punks, ever since JT the Elder was coach. By design.

Duvall
08-18-2011, 10:39 AM
I don't see the problem - Georgetown is just introducing the world to the wonders and majesty of BIG EAST basketball.

brlftz
08-18-2011, 10:54 AM
before leaping to conclusions, knowing that it was a professional team in a foreign league, we might want to consider the possibility that Georgetown was being heavily provoked. if so they shouldn't have taken the bait, but still.

NSDukeFan
08-18-2011, 10:57 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/photos-of-georgetown-brawl-in-china/2011/08/18/gIQApHsVNJ_blog.html

Stay classy G'Town

The Not-so-Friendship Games?

hurleyfor3
08-18-2011, 10:57 AM
before leaping to conclusions, knowing that it was a professional team in a foreign league, we might want to consider the possibility that Georgetown was being heavily provoked. if so they shouldn't have taken the bait, but still.

K probably would have pulled his team off the court in a case such as that.

ChillinDuke
08-18-2011, 11:17 AM
Here's a link with a G'Town fan's recount of what happened. Obviously, it has a G'Town bias, but still sounds like some pretty bizarre stuff...

http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-basketball/2011/8/18/2370305/georgetown-hoyas-china-brawl-beijing

magjayran
08-18-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm not gonna just jump out and blame Georgetown for this right off the bat. Sounds like a crazy situation.

PADukeMom
08-18-2011, 11:48 AM
I think I read that Joe Biden was in attandance so perhaps the Chinese team was showing their displeasure at our debt crisis. I know bad joke but hey it is a Thursday morning & basketball is back! With the apparent foul disparaity I wonder if the Chinese team is the DUKE of Asia? I kind of feel for the G-Town kids.

I really do think K would have pulled the team off the court if things had gotten that bad.

oldnavy
08-18-2011, 11:50 AM
I haven't seen either the Duke game or the G'Town game, but from those who have, the officiating sounds suspect. Having played in games where the refs either favored a team or let everything go, tempers flair and things can get ugly very fast.

dchen09
08-18-2011, 12:47 PM
Non-partisan view on the game. The reporter tries hard not to assign any blame but it seems pretty obvious that the Chinese team and refs just did not take this as a friendly. As much as I dislike Georgetown, its hard to assign them much blame at all for what happened. If we thought the Duke game was reffed badly, this one seems far worse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/fight-ends-georgetown-basketball-exhibition-in-china/2011/08/18/gIQAs1zeNJ_story.html

Regenman
08-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Based on the foul differential and the fact that a Chinese man (not in an uniform) is stomping on a G-Town player already on the ground, I'm not quite sure why Georgetown is the one that has to stay classy. One of their players got into Thompson's face before the brawl so this was building up beforehand.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the officiating in these "friendlies" has been pretty bad and one-sided, so perhaps the Chinese Basketball Association needs to get their act together (not Georgetown).

killerleft
08-18-2011, 01:28 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/post/photos-of-georgetown-brawl-in-china/2011/08/18/gIQApHsVNJ_blog.html

Stay classy G'Town

? With no facts in hand, what justifies this statement?

dchen09
08-18-2011, 01:32 PM
? With no facts in hand, what justifies this statement?

To be fair, any time a college team goes international, it just sounds bad when they get into a brawl regardless of the situation.

NovaScotian
08-18-2011, 01:48 PM
please please please let there be video.

NovaScotian
08-18-2011, 02:16 PM
please please please let there be video.

got it!
http://tobaccoroadblues.com/2011/08/18/the-beijing-brawl/

-bdbd
08-18-2011, 02:18 PM
Based on the foul differential and the fact that a Chinese man (not in an uniform) is stomping on a G-Town player already on the ground, I'm not quite sure why Georgetown is the one that has to stay classy. One of their players got into Thompson's face before the brawl so this was building up beforehand.

I'm pretty sure we can all agree that the officiating in these "friendlies" has been pretty bad and one-sided, so perhaps the Chinese Basketball Association needs to get their act together (not Georgetown).


I think I read that Joe Biden was in attandance so perhaps the Chinese team was showing their displeasure at our debt crisis. I know bad joke but hey it is a Thursday morning & basketball is back! With the apparent foul disparaity I wonder if the Chinese team is the DUKE of Asia? I kind of feel for the G-Town kids.

I really do think K would have pulled the team off the court if things had gotten that bad.

VP Biden was NOT at this game, though he did attend an earlier Georgetown game there.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/08/18/us-china-brawl.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a10

Hard to say from the box score - G'town called for about twice as many fouls as Bayi. But was that b/c they were being more physical/Big East-like, or b/c of one-sided reffing (which could have helped cause tension/anger from the Georgetown side)?

The Washington Post article, written by an American reporter in attendance apparently, while trying to stay impartial seems to hint that it was Bayi that was being more provocative.

*** I hope that this has no further implications for the game Duke is about to play in Beijing. Certainly the fans and local media will be very sensitive to any acrimony in our game. I'm sure K will be really on top of this, talking to our guys about it beforehand. I don't expect any problems.

Just looked at the video posted by NS - from the rain of bottles flying towards the GT players as they exited you'd think this game was being played in College Park!!

wilko
08-18-2011, 02:28 PM
I aint gonna judge G'Town on this... I'm just glad it wasn't US in this incident.
I also hope the next Great Big from China gives Duke a positive look because of this. I could live with the next Yao Ming in a Duke uni.

Aditya
08-18-2011, 02:47 PM
It seems clear to me from the article and the video that the Chinese team and many fans were acting in a completely classless fashion. I think a big question is what the brawl implies. If American college students are going to get physically abused in the name of diplomacy, why should they be sent to play? Why should American students be deployed to be, literally, kicked around?

billyj
08-18-2011, 03:01 PM
It seems clear to me from the article and the video that the Chinese team and many fans were acting in a completely classless fashion. I think a big question is what the brawl implies. If American college students are going to get physically abused in the name of diplomacy, why should they be sent to play? Why should American students be deployed to be, literally, kicked around?

Chinese basketball (or any professional sports) teams are filled with thugs. You can't have a college team from another nation go out there and kick their butt. They were just looking for a reason to start a brawl, and that punch started it. It was a shameful display of classless thuggery after that.

NovaScotian
08-18-2011, 03:13 PM
I aint gonna judge G'Town on this... I'm just glad it wasn't US in this incident.

i hear you - you can bet there are some people who would be veeery quick to suggest this sort of thing would have been all duke's fault.

duke79
08-18-2011, 03:17 PM
It seems clear to me from the article and the video that the Chinese team and many fans were acting in a completely classless fashion. I think a big question is what the brawl implies. If American college students are going to get physically abused in the name of diplomacy, why should they be sent to play? Why should American students be deployed to be, literally, kicked around?

Looked like a very ugly scene, from that video. Did NOT like to see the Chinese fans throwing trash at the G-Town players. Sort of scary. Hard to tell exactly who was at fault, but I would say that the Chinese were certainly not completely innocent in the whole affair.

sporthenry
08-18-2011, 03:19 PM
i hear you - you can bet there are some people who would be veeery quick to suggest this sort of thing would have been all duke's fault.

Just like some here were quick to point out it must have been Gtown's thuggery or whatever they call it. But that video stirs some patriotism in me. Hard to tell but it didn't appear the Gtown player really did much then the Chinese started to surround the one or two guys who were alone. In the one picture, the Gtown guy seemed to knock out the Chinese player but if this was the other way around, the China national team vs say the Pacers and that brawl occurred, would it not be a national incident?

Reilly
08-18-2011, 03:21 PM
... from the rain of bottles flying towards the GT players as they exited you'd think this game was being played in College Park!!

There may yet be rioting in PG County tonight, with Terp-dom upset that the American players getting punched in China were not from Duke ...

I bet Nate James's dad could handle a billion Chinese ....

Class of '94
08-18-2011, 03:32 PM
i hear you - you can bet there are some people who would be veeery quick to suggest this sort of thing would have been all duke's fault.

No offense but I don't want to even bring Duke and Duke hate into this discussion. I have to admit that I was quick to put ihis situation as G-town's fault but after seeing the video, It appears to me that the thugs were wearing Chinese basketball uniforms. I thought it was deplorable that it appeared that a bunch of the Chinese players were ganging up on and on top of two of G-town's players in the corner; and I'm glad the rest of G-town's team came back and helped those two by getting the Chinese players off of them. I also noticed in the video tghat a few of the Chinese players were trying to get back in the fight while holding chairs. I thought that was very punkish. Saying that, It was unfortunate situation for everyone involved and we obviously don't have all the facts; but I firmly believe that at the very least both sides and the refs are all at fault (alhough I find myself aligning with G=town and feeling like the Chinese players and the refs [by not controlling the game and officiating better] brought this on), Just my opinion.

TampaDuke
08-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Obviously it's tough to tell from the posted video what happened, but toward the beginning of the video it looks like the GT player that throws the outlet pass from the backcourt swings at the China player just as the camera is beginning to pan down court. The Chinese player had started to turn to run down court and immediately turns back to the GT player and the fracas begins.

From there, the Chinese players really seemed to escalate it.

Enough blame to go around, but Thompson made the correct move in getting the team out of there, IMO.

Acymetric
08-18-2011, 04:22 PM
Obviously it's tough to tell from the posted video what happened, but toward the beginning of the video it looks like the GT player that throws the outlet pass from the backcourt swings at the China player just as the camera is beginning to pan down court. The Chinese player had started to turn to run down court and immediately turns back to the GT player and the fracas begins.

From there, the Chinese players really seemed to escalate it.

Enough blame to go around, but Thompson made the correct move in getting the team out of there, IMO.

Looked to me like the Chinese player was running back to contest the outlet and sort of ran into the GT player, I didn't see that as a punch on his part.

But either way, in 2 instances multiple Chinese players were ganging up on Georgetown players who were on the ground. Worth noting that this is a military team, and they look like a bunch of punks to me.

Regenman
08-18-2011, 04:37 PM
Bayi is a big team (7 players 6'9" and above) and they have some players in their early 30s. I highly doubt that a traveling college team in an hostile environment is going to instigate something. However, a home team getting all the calls and yet still tied by a team of teens/young adults is probably going to get chippy. And then there's the racial factor...based on my travels in China, I'm sure its a pretty big element. After looking at the video, cornering a kid with 3 guys and then putting a beat down on him when he's on the ground (which caused the fracas to move behind the goal) is BS.

CharlestonDevil
08-18-2011, 04:47 PM
We may not know who or what actions started the fight, or what began generating tensions in the first place, but one thing that jumped out to me was how quickly the mob(quite literally) of Chinese people rushed the court. I mean there was a guy in street clothes throwing punches and swinging kicks?!?! Look at the different groups of Chinese players and fans that encircle the Gtown guys. This was not one on one, Ron Artest style fighting, it was groups versus individual players.

The home crowd/team was certainly looking for a fight. Unless Gtown just had a personal vendetta and 28 first half fouls didn't accurately send the message that they needed to chill out.

SMO
08-18-2011, 04:50 PM
We may not know who or what actions started the fight, or what began generating tensions in the first place, but one thing that jumped out to me was how quickly the mob(quite literally) of Chinese people rushed the court. I mean there was a guy in street clothes throwing punches and swinging kicks?!?! Look at the different groups of Chinese players and fans that encircle the Gtown guys. This was not one on one, Ron Artest style fighting, it was groups versus individual players.

The home crowd/team was certainly looking for a fight. Unless Gtown just had a personal vendetta and 28 first half fouls didn't accurately send the message that they needed to chill out.

Completely disgraceful behavior by the Chinese team and fans. I would not be surprised if race was a factor as some have suggested. What a preventable shame.

Lauderdevil
08-18-2011, 04:58 PM
While the video doesn't cover the whole situation, the clear bad acts it does show (punching, chair throwing, water-bottle throwing) were not coming from Georgetown. The Hoyas do not appear to deserve the quick-trigger criticisms leveled on them over this.

Reisen
08-18-2011, 05:16 PM
Agreed. I've been getting a lot of ribbing at work about this, given I have a Masters from Georgetown, but this was pretty clearly the Chinese acting poorly. The video is clear enough. That's a disgrace.

licc85
08-18-2011, 05:23 PM
I just watched the video, and I have to admit, I see a lot more disgraceful behavior from the Chinese side than the Gtown side. Now I don't know exactly what was said or done to start the incident, but what I DID see was the Gtown coaches actually trying to wall off their own players and break up the fight, while the Chinese staff did nothing but watch as their players ganged up on helplessly prone Gtown players. That's just shameful. That team should be fined or something.

As a side note, I would have been very surprised if anything like this had happened in our game, even under similar circumstances, as the players on the National team would probably never do something this stupid while representing their entire country. Don't let the actions of one idiot club team and their fans skew your view of the Chinese people.

sporthenry
08-18-2011, 05:29 PM
Putting all the information available and reading between the lines, Georgetown was probably frustrated which help set it off but the fault lies mostly with the team and refs. From watching today, the FT and foul disparity probably more came from them being American than anything else. I'm sure they ran into the whole reaching in stuff and couldn't comprehend it much like Dre couldn't either. Then I'm sure the other team pushed the limits of physicality of the foreign game with handchecking and stuff. So I'm sure Gtown started getting frustrated.

Then I would assume the Chinese team started getting more physical either b/c they were embarrassed to be losing, realized the refs wouldn't do anything, or were upset with the reactions of the Gtown players. Then I'm sure the refs probably either did the racial or anti-American thing and the game just became absurd. So the Gtown player was then fouled hard and was sick of the whole game so he shoved the Chinese guy which is bad, but apparently happened before in the game as there were shoving matches throughout the game. Then the Chinese were just looking for whatever to overreact and subsequently did so. I didn't really see a punch thrown by the Gtown player but the video is grainy so who knows. But the fact that a Chinese player had the gall to accost JT3 tells me most of what I need to know. Then you had them jumping on Gtown players when the Gtown players looked more worried about getting out alive.

Sir Stealth
08-18-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm no fan of Georgetown basketball, but it looks really stupid for posters to come on here and say that Georgetown acted poorly here. If you watch the video, it looks like the fight was completely escalated by the Chinese team, which rushed the court en masse at the drop of a hat. There is a player from the Chinese team throwing punches at a Gtown player on the ground, multiple players from the Chinese team immediately picking up and swinging chairs, and a manager/fan of the Chinese team stomping on a Georgetown player. Then you have the fans of the Chinese team throwing stuff at the team as they leave. I didn't see anything bad done by a Georgetown player really and feel like there was probably a good bit of restraint on their part. Reports also discuss a player from the Chinese team having a screaming meltdown in JTIII's face during the game as he stared in his typically Droopyesque disbelief.

Of course, at the same time it's ridiculous to go in the other direction and speculate that the Chinese team acted this way out of racism or paint the whole thing with a broad brush and say that all of Chinese basketball is completely filled with thugs. No reason to blow this one incident out of proportion based on the acts of one team and one crowd. Georgetown should not agree to play against that team or in that arena again though.

licc85
08-18-2011, 05:49 PM
I'm no fan of Georgetown basketball, but it looks really stupid for posters to come on here and say that Georgetown acted poorly here. If you watch the video, it looks like the fight was completely escalated by the Chinese team, which rushed the court en masse at the drop of a hat. There is a player from the Chinese team throwing punches at a Gtown player on the ground, multiple players from the Chinese team immediately picking up and swinging chairs, and a manager/fan of the Chinese team stomping on a Georgetown player. Then you have the fans of the Chinese team throwing stuff at the team as they leave. I didn't see anything bad done by a Georgetown player really and feel like there was probably a good bit of restraint on their part. Reports also discuss a player from the Chinese team having a screaming meltdown in JTIII's face during the game as he stared in his typically Droopyesque disbelief.

Of course, at the same time it's ridiculous to go in the other direction and speculate that the Chinese team acted this way out of racism or paint the whole thing with a broad brush and say that all of Chinese basketball is completely filled with thugs. No reason to blow this one incident out of proportion based on the acts of one team and one crowd. Georgetown should not agree to play against that team or in that arena again though.

I think most of the posters here would agree that Georgetown is not to blame here, and that the actions of the Chinese players, coaches, and fans were absolutely shameful. As a Chinese-born American, I'm extremely upset at the way things turned out in this game, and I'm frustrated that 90% of Americans are going to look at this video and automatically assume that this is typical behavior for Chinese people. I can only hope that basketball relations between our two countries haven't taken a giant step back because of this.

CDu
08-18-2011, 05:58 PM
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast!

As others have said, this looks really bad for that Chinese team. Throwing/wielding chairs, repeated punches/kicks to players on the ground. Unacceptable. Obviously we don't know what happened throughout the game leading up to the fight (though there is certainly room for speculation), but there must have been a lot of chippy stuff going on. I hope that everyone on the Georgetown team (as well as their fanbase in attendance) is okay. That's a scary situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if Georgetown ends their trip early. Very unfortunate event during what should have been an amazing experience for those kids. And of course hopefully it doesn't affect our upcoming game.

hillsborodevil
08-18-2011, 06:21 PM
After seeing the video I believe I will take my family out tonight to eat some......Chinese

JasonEvans
08-18-2011, 08:23 PM
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast!

It jumped up a notch. (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/8224c1a1e3/anchorman-newscaster-fight-from-anchormanfan?rel=by_user)

-Jason "at least no one was wielding tridents" Evans

House G
08-18-2011, 08:30 PM
Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got out of hand fast!

As others have said, this looks really bad for that Chinese team. Throwing/wielding chairs, repeated punches/kicks to players on the ground. Unacceptable. Obviously we don't know what happened throughout the game leading up to the fight (though there is certainly room for speculation), but there must have been a lot of chippy stuff going on. I hope that everyone on the Georgetown team (as well as their fanbase in attendance) is okay. That's a scary situation.

I wouldn't be surprised if Georgetown ends their trip early. Very unfortunate event during what should have been an amazing experience for those kids. And of course hopefully it doesn't affect our upcoming game.

Yeah, I haven't seen a chair wielded like that since Bloomington 1985:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvRO2GE4x4M

JasonEvans
08-18-2011, 08:31 PM
I have watched the video a few times and I have a hard time blaming Georgetown at all. It looks to me like the Chinese players start it and escalate it severely. The Chinese fans then put the icing on then cake with their debris shower down upon the Hoyas.

These Chinese government is very protective of the country's image. I suspect they will not look upon this incident kindly. The Chinese team and these players (and the refs and the security guards) are all likely in biig trouble. I would expect some kind of apology to Georgetown fairly quickly.

-Jason "if this were the 1970s or 80s, someone would be headed to a 're-education camp' over this" Evans

dukebballcamper90-91
08-18-2011, 09:00 PM
I don't blame G'Town. As bad as I hate G'Town, I think I hate China more. Our game was got a little suspect at times. I wish we would call our game off.

77devil
08-18-2011, 10:02 PM
These Chinese government is very protective of the country's image. I suspect they will not look upon this incident kindly. The Chinese team and these players (and the refs and the security guards) are all likely in biig trouble. I would expect some kind of apology to Georgetown fairly quickly.

-Jason "if this were the 1970s or 80s, someone would be headed to a 're-education camp' over this" Evans

I wouldn't bet the ranch. I have done extensive business in China over many years, which means de facto the Chinese government. While I agree with the first two sentences, my experience is that if the government can spin it, it will do so. Of course, as you noted, the video is pretty damaging.

My guess is that Chinese officials are spending more time looking for locals involved with any videos and that they are the ones in "biig" trouble.

jipops
08-18-2011, 10:41 PM
Georgetown has always been filled with punks, ever since JT the Elder was coach. By design.

It is sad to me that the automatic assumption made here is that GTown is the instigator in this mess. Have we learned anything from the reading so-called "sports-journalists" running rampant with the K-Poythress story?

Get the facts first and the facts we can find are in the video, and it doesn't make the Chinese look very good.

As an aside, I'm no GTown fan but I do take exception that the Hoyas have always been filled with punks. Patrick Ewing, Reggie Williams, David Wingate, Dikembe Mutombo and numerous other former players were real stand-up guys.

Newton_14
08-18-2011, 10:59 PM
I too have to place most if not all of the blame on the Chinese team, their coaches, and the actual cops there who mostly sat back and acted as spectators while the Georgetown guys were fighting for their lives, if you will excuse the exaggeration there. What a mess. I did find a bit of humor in the back to back photo that showed a Georgetown playing putting one of the Chinese players on his rear. Photo 1 they are locked up and the G'town kid has both hands under the chin of the Chinese kid, and in photo 2, the Chinese kid is a good two feet in the air heading parallel to the floor on his backside. Man, he laid that dude out!

Humor aside, that was an ugly and dangerous deal. Especially the cases where the G'town kids were down on the floor with multiple Chinese guys trying to kick the crap out of them. That, combined with the chairs, makes it amazing to me that no one was seriously hurt. I applaud the G'Town staff and contingent for getting their kids safely off the floor and into the locker room as fast as they did.

Kfanarmy
08-18-2011, 11:12 PM
... Worth noting that this is a military team, and they look like a bunch of punks to me. What do you mean by this?

Acymetric
08-18-2011, 11:28 PM
What do you mean by this?

Sorry, reading that again it kind of sounds like I would expect military guys to be punks...to be clear that's not what I was trying to say.

I guess I was trying to imply two points. A: Dangerous to have those guys coming at a group of college kids trying to hurt them, and B: Pretty shameful that military guys would act that way. Maybe other countries don't have the same standards that we do but I would hope someone with military experience would have more self control than was shown by the Chinese players.

KenTankerous
08-19-2011, 03:53 AM
If this were a restaurant or barroom as opposed to a gym, these "professional" athletes would be arrested for assaulting minors, no? Why is it acceptable for grown men to beat on college kids with chairs and fists and feet and the best we can muster is mildly vague disdain for their lack of professionalism?

What the Bayi Rockets and their fans did wasn't just unsportsmanship - it was criminal. And as a sports fan, I find it completely unacceptable.

Not only should TJ3 exit China early, Coach K and the Dukies ought to leave China this morning in solidarity.

ice-9
08-19-2011, 04:37 AM
Oh wow, what an embarassing incident. I'm ethnically Chinese but attended U.S. schools and lived most of my life in Singapore and Indonesia, so I think I'm a neutral observer to all this.

I watched the video (here: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2011/08/georgetown-basketball-brawl-video-hoyas-involved-in-melee-in-china-65333.html) several times, and here's my take:

- The Chinese player fouled the Hoya passer rather roughly, but not imo flagrantly

- The Hoya player took a swing at the Chinese player who had already turned to run back on defense

- The Chinese player immediately got into the Hoya's face and swung at (or shoved?) him. Another Chinese player nearb ganged up on the Hoya player

- At that point players from BOTH sides rushed to the fracas, though the Chinese bench got there first as they were closer

- From there I couldn't tell which group was more aggressive than the other

- The fight was taken to the sideline behind the basket where the chairs were; players fell all over the chairs

- I couldn't tell whether the Chinese team assistants (in white shirts and khakis) were joining in the fight or trying to stop it...if the former, those assistants should be ashamed. It was probably a mix -- some of them were trying to stop the fight (I saw one wrap his arms around a Hoya player to bring him away from the fight), some joining it (I saw another throwing a chair at presumably a Hoya player; of course there's also the stomp photo)

- One Chinese player picked up a chair, but did not swing with it. Later you'll see someone from the Hoya (not in uniform) also pick up a chair but he also did not swing with it

- A lot of bottles were thrown from the crowd...kinda reminded me of Duke-Maryland games at the Comcast Center

My overall take is that both sides should take responsibility for the incident. I don't know who is "more responsibe" than the other, but I do know that the Chinese team as hosts should be more gracious towards their guests, and on that count they failed miserably. IMO, this incident makes both China and the U.S. bad.

I don't think the Chinese government would ever formally apologize for an incident like this, but it would behoove them to find out who threw bottles and which assistants joined in the fight and make arrests.

CameronBornAndBred
08-19-2011, 08:39 AM
Not only should TJ3 exit China early, Coach K and the Dukies ought to leave China this morning in solidarity.
I respect your opinion, but I totally disagree. We are there as ambassadors of the sport and in a sense diplomats of our country. Georgetown is too, which is why JT3 started off his statement with "two great teams" instead of "us and a bunch of wankers". It was the right thing for Georgetown to leave the court, it would be the wrong thing for either team to leave the country. This is a great opportunity for us to say "hey, this was an ugly event, but we are strong enough characters to continue on. We want to share our sport with you."

OldPhiKap
08-19-2011, 09:10 AM
I wouldn't bet the ranch. I have done extensive business in China over many years, which means de facto the Chinese government. While I agree with the first two sentences, my experience is that if the government can spin it, it will do so. Of course, as you noted, the video is pretty damaging.

My guess is that Chinese officials are spending more time looking for locals involved with any videos and that they are the ones in "biig" trouble.

"Round up the usual suspects"

DukieInKansas
08-19-2011, 09:38 AM
On GMA this morning, they reported that some of the Chinese players and coaches met with Georgetown to smooth things over. "The coaches of both teams and several players met early Friday morning at the Beijing Airport before the Hoyas left for Shanghai. Both coaches talked about their teams and leagues as well as their families, and discussed possible future exchanges and Chinese players coming to Washington, D.C. "

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/International/georgetown-hoyas-continuing-shanghai-court-brawl/story?id=14338384

MCFinARL
08-19-2011, 10:08 AM
IMO, this incident makes both China and the U.S. bad.

I am assuming you meant to include the word "look" here--makes both China and the U.S. look bad. As such, I found myself instantly reacting negatively to your assertion that the actions of a few Georgetown basketball players could be attributed to "the US," even if they are U.S. representatives as part of a State Department facilitated exchange, and even if your analysis of what happened is closer to the truth than some of the others that see less provocation by Georgetown players [I haven't studied the the video closely enough to say].
But then I had to acknowledge that the same could be said the other way. Many people commenting on this situation (not as much on this board as elsewhere) have attributed the behavior of the Bayi team to "China" as a whole. Some have offered a few other incidents as evidence, but even with a little bit of supporting evidence, gross generalizations are still gross generalizations. The US and China--the countries--have a lot of very important issues to work out. In the current economic climate, a lot of Americans are, understandably, apprehensive about our future relationship with China. It's pretty easy to see a basketball brawl as a metaphor for a lot of other things, but in the end, I doubt it is helpful.


I respect your opinion, but I totally disagree. We are there as ambassadors of the sport and in a sense diplomats of our country. Georgetown is too, which is why JT3 started off his statement with "two great teams" instead of "us and a bunch of wankers". It was the right thing for Georgetown to leave the court, it would be the wrong thing for either team to leave the country. This is a great opportunity for us to say "hey, this was an ugly event, but we are strong enough characters to continue on. We want to share our sport with you."

Very well put--I agree completely. Since I believe Georgetown's next game is against the same team, this will give everyone on both sides an opportunity to demonstrate maturity and avoid pouring gas on the fire. Hopefully it will work out that way.

tecumseh
08-19-2011, 10:31 AM
I blame the Chinese and I think watching the video that is absolutely clear. Does anyone remember the benchclearing brawls of their national teams agains Puerto Rico and Brazil in recent years. The young Chinese players are toxic combination of spoiled only children playing with desperation borne of poverty and family expectations whose heads are filled with nationalistic fervor and oh yeah they are not so great at basketball

KenTankerous
08-19-2011, 10:34 AM
I respect your opinion, but I totally disagree. We are there as ambassadors of the sport and in a sense diplomats of our country. Georgetown is too, which is why JT3 started off his statement with "two great teams" instead of "us and a bunch of wankers". It was the right thing for Georgetown to leave the court, it would be the wrong thing for either team to leave the country. This is a great opportunity for us to say "hey, this was an ugly event, but we are strong enough characters to continue on. We want to share our sport with you."


In the light of a new morning, I think I was being a bit reactionary. You are correct. It is best if we get past this and play ball.

I still think the thuggery in basketball especially, but sports in general, has become far too commonplace and our acceptance and tacit approval of this behavior is wrong. But I am at somewhat of a loss on what we, as fans, do about it.

HCheek37
08-19-2011, 11:01 AM
On GMA this morning, they reported that some of the Chinese players and coaches met with Georgetown to smooth things over. "The coaches of both teams and several players met early Friday morning at the Beijing Airport before the Hoyas left for Shanghai. Both coaches talked about their teams and leagues as well as their families, and discussed possible future exchanges and Chinese players coming to Washington, D.C. "

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/International/georgetown-hoyas-continuing-shanghai-court-brawl/story?id=14338384

In the article linked above, they mention two things that surprised me.

1) The teams are scheduled to play again on Sunday (this cannot be a good idea)

2) Georgetown asked for a police escort back to their hotel and were not given one! Way to go China, first your thugs on the court start a melee and then you are stupid enough to send Georgetown out of the arena without security. They are lucky nothing happened to the Hoyas on their way back to the hotel.

tecumseh
08-19-2011, 11:29 AM
I have only visited China a few times but have two adult children who have lived there and are fluent in Mandarin. One and I hope this is not too much public policy but mainstream reporting about China is heavily filtered, even by Americans. Case in point Rupert Murdoch has BIG plans for China as does Microsoft so Fox and WSJ and MSNBC are very careful about what they say. The Chinese single child policy combined with the lack of a social safety net puts huge pressure on children to produce and earn money....kind of like that great documentary "Hoop Dreams" this is the reality of all the Chinese basketball players who play with what Pat Riley said about John Starks " a certain desperation". One of the tragedies of the Chinese sports machines is kids and young adults are spit out after years of training exclusively in that sport...no college degree to fall back on and no real future if they fall short of the national team or Olympic medals the outlook is not so great.

Chinese sports is all about propaganda and really Olympics. Chinese athletes are separated from the rest of the world to a much greater degree than other athletes. If the game between the US and Spain in basketball gets too physical you have people who are friends and teammates on both sides, this is very true in international soccer. Chinese athletes with some very few exceptions have no friends outside of China.

Chinese leadership promotes this "us against the world" attitude. It helps deflect from the corruption and inequalities of the system. Saving face is obviously important so if you lost the game but stayed "brothers in arms" and fought bravely that is OK too.

Lastly as my daughter always jokes "It is OK to rip off the American but not to hurt them". If the Georgetown players were attacked violently on the way to the hotel some very heavy sh$t would come down on the Chinese who did this. Chinese "justice" can be very swift and harsh.

Sorry to be so long winded but sadly the Chinese sport system is a disgrace IMHO it spits out kids like so many used parts and promotes nationalism so a corrupt regime can stay in power and does as little as possible for "goodwill" the last thing the Chinese officials want is to expose a generation of kids to the Western world

AZLA
08-19-2011, 11:36 AM
Referees only had to call double-technicals and the game could have presumed and ended with a friendly handshake.

Now doubt the people who threw the chairs were just protesting how uncomfortable folding chairs are.

And who could blame them?

The fans throwing water bottles were just being gracious hosts.

It was obvious that after the ruckus, Georgetown players were exhausted and thirsty.

Out of kindness, the fans threw some water their way.

Look, when a chair gets thrown in a bowling alley in Hampton Roads, Virginia -- that's considered inciting a riot and mayhem -- when one gets thrown in an international game... it's just political expression a al a Jerry Springer.

Minor misunderstanding.

PADukeMom
08-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Watched the video several times & all I can say is WOW! Honestly I did not see the G-Town player taking the first shot.

If I didn't know what this video was about I might have very well mistaken it for a WWE match or perhaps a Maryland home game.

Didn't realize the Biden visit was the previuos day. Did he also attend a Duke game?

CDu
08-19-2011, 12:27 PM
- One Chinese player picked up a chair, but did not swing with it. Later you'll see someone from the Hoya (not in uniform) also pick up a chair but he also did not swing with it

I think you should watch this version of the video:

http://tobaccoroadblues.com/2011/08/18/the-beijing-brawl/

The version you presented missed the worst of the actions of the Chinese team. The stuff that happened behind the backboard is the worst of it, and the video you were watching can't see that stuff.

Multiple Chinese players picked up chairs. One of them swung it very hard in the direction of a prone Georgetown player. Another one did just hold the chair over his head.

Also, there's a clip of a Chines player throwing haymakers behind the basket, and sitting on top of a prone Georgetown player and punching him repeatedly.

And I think there's pretty clear evidence that at least one of the Chinese coaches was participating in the fight and not trying to stop it (the guy stomping and kicking).


My overall take is that both sides should take responsibility for the incident. I don't know who is "more responsibe" than the other, but I do know that the Chinese team as hosts should be more gracious towards their guests, and on that count they failed miserably. IMO, this incident makes both China and the U.S. bad.

I don't know who is more responsible for the fight, but the Chinese players pretty clearly appear to be the ones escalating it (ganging up on individual players, swinging chairs, at least one coach joining in). I don't think I'd say it makes China or the US look good or bad. It makes that particular Chinese team and those fans look bad. It doesn't doesn't make the Georgetown team look good, but I'd say it's far less "not good" for Georgetown than it looks for that Chinese team.

DukieInKansas
08-19-2011, 01:44 PM
It would be interesting to have a rough translation of the voices heard on that video. (I would assume that it is something along the lines of can you believe what is happening, someone should stop this.) It also seemed like there was an announcer talking as the Georgetown team left and bottles flew - that would be really interesting to have translated.


OK - true confession time. My recording of yesterday's Duke game did not happen. How was the attendence at our two games? This video of the Georgetown games looks like it was a really empty arena. Just curious for a crowd size comparison.

Bob Green
08-19-2011, 01:45 PM
OK - true confession time. My recording of yesterday's Duke game did not happen. How was the attendence at our two games? This video of the Georgetown games looks like it was a really empty arena. Just curious for a crowd size comparison.

Attendance at the second game was very good - the arena looked sold out or close to.

-bdbd
08-19-2011, 01:52 PM
Talking to someone in Beijing last night around midnight and they said news of the Georgetown incident was blocked in China. Hmmmmm. :eek:

A-Tex Devil
08-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Adding a little levity..... the Taiwanese animation news report (http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/31419340) is out. I think it pretty much nails it.

ChicagoHeel
08-19-2011, 02:49 PM
I've spent many years in China and I'm somewhat surprised by this incident. On the one hand, sports are so tied up with nationalism that it's easy to see how the passion of the Chinese players and fans elevated quickly and dangerously. On the other hand, Chinese place a great deal of emphasis on being gracious hosts and it is very rare for a foreigner to ever feel threatened with physical harm in China. Undoubtedly this is a tremendous embarrassment to China's leaders, which likely explains the media blackout.

As to who is at fault, of course it is hard to say. My sense of the video is that the precipitating incident was a Georgetown player that threw a shove/ punch to the shoulder of a Chinese player following a hard foul. This was likely in response to the harsh play and uneven referees, but that is a reason not an excuse. Technically I would say G-town started it. But, as the picture below and video captures, the Chinese side really escalated and showed an appalling lack of control. My conclusion is that it is an embarrassing incident to both sides, but a deeply shameful event for the Chinese. I know I'd be humiliated to see a Bulls assistant stomping on a student from Beijing University.


2008

CDu
08-19-2011, 03:01 PM
As to who is at fault, of course it is hard to say. My sense of the video is that the precipitating incident was a Georgetown player that threw a shove/ punch to the shoulder of a Chinese player following a hard foul. This was likely in response to the harsh play and uneven referees, but that is a reason not an excuse. Technically I would say G-town started it. But, as the picture below and video captures, the Chinese side really escalated and showed an appalling lack of control. My conclusion is that it is an embarrassing incident to both sides, but a deeply shameful event for the Chinese. I know I'd be humiliated to see a Bulls assistant stomping on a student from Beijing University.

I agree that the particular incident started with the shove/punch. But I have trouble believing the shove/punch alone was enough to start the melee that resulted. There had to be a LOT of questionable incidents (both ways) leading up to that shove/punch. I just can't imagine an isolated swing setting off such an incident so quickly. The Chinese had to be ready to fight already, and that was likely spawned by previous proceedings.

Given the location, the difference in ages/experience, and the way it escalated, I'd have to put a LOT more blame on the Chinese side. Georgetown certainly isn't without blame, though, as it's hard to excuse taking a swing at someone in a basketball game.

MCFinARL
08-19-2011, 03:20 PM
Referees only had to call double-technicals and the game could have presumed and ended with a friendly handshake.

Now doubt the people who threw the chairs were just protesting how uncomfortable folding chairs are.

And who could blame them?

The fans throwing water bottles were just being gracious hosts.

It was obvious that after the ruckus, Georgetown players were exhausted and thirsty.

Out of kindness, the fans threw some water their way.

Look, when a chair gets thrown in a bowling alley in Hampton Roads, Virginia -- that's considered inciting a riot and mayhem -- when one gets thrown in an international game... it's just political expression a al a Jerry Springer.

Minor misunderstanding.

I have been waiting for someone to draw this analogy, which seems both apt and inevitable. But I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from it, as I'm also not sure what conclusion to draw from your cleverly sarcastic post.

TampaDuke
08-19-2011, 03:24 PM
Multiple Chinese players picked up chairs. One of them swung it very hard in the direction of a prone Georgetown player. Another one did just hold the chair over his head.

Also, there's a clip of a Chines player throwing haymakers behind the basket, and sitting on top of a prone Georgetown player and punching him repeatedly.

And I think there's pretty clear evidence that at least one of the Chinese coaches was participating in the fight and not trying to stop it (the guy stomping and kicking).

I don't know who is more responsible for the fight, but the Chinese players pretty clearly appear to be the ones escalating it (ganging up on individual players, swinging chairs, at least one coach joining in). I don't think I'd say it makes China or the US look good or bad. It makes that particular Chinese team and those fans look bad. It doesn't doesn't make the Georgetown team look good, but I'd say it's far less "not good" for Georgetown than it looks for that Chinese team.

I tend to agree with you that the Chinese players clearly escalate the fight and come off looking worse than GT. That said, there is pretty clear video of at least one GT player hurling a chair and hitting a Chinese player with it behind the basket.

JasonEvans
08-19-2011, 04:32 PM
For all the folks who doubted me when I said that the Chinese government would not be pleased (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/world/asia/20basketball.html?_r=2&hp) with this...


But even if Beijing has since come to believe that gold medals are lovelier than bronze, senior leaders here are clearly displeased that players from its most popular men’s basketball team got into an ugly, full-court brawl Thursday night with the Georgetown University Hoyas.

-Jason

hq2
08-19-2011, 04:47 PM
But does it really surprise anyone that G-Town would be involved? Clearly, the Chinese were as much
if not more at fault, but G-town is known for playing rough, period. My bet is that all this stuff built up
throughout the game; we only saw the end of it. My bet is G-town provoked a lot of it earlier.

Duke05
08-19-2011, 04:49 PM
For all the folks who doubted me when I said that the Chinese government would not be pleased (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/world/asia/20basketball.html?_r=2&hp) with this...



-Jason

More from that same article:

In a country prone to nationalistic sentiment, most microblog remarks were surprisingly critical of the home team, a once-reliable champion that has in recent years fallen off its pedestal after losing some of its best players to retirement.


“Aren’t Bayi players soldiers? Why would they beat up a bunch of college students?” asked one posting. “What a loss of face for the people’s army!” Others made light of the situation. “The Bayi team sure is lousy at basketball and should try some other sport — like boxing.”


One of the few newspapers to cover the fight, The Beijing News, blamed the referee for poorly officiating the game and security guards for inaction during the fisticuffs. The paper, however, suggested that the Hoya coach, John Thompson III, had a hand in the skirmish, and that Georgetown was known for its aggressive defensive tactics.

AZLA
08-19-2011, 05:20 PM
I have been waiting for someone to draw this analogy, which seems both apt and inevitable. But I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from it, as I'm also not sure what conclusion to draw from your cleverly sarcastic post.

Was fully anticipating PRC officials to spin the incident (which was clearly boorish behavior on the part of the Rockets) into some concocted position that puts the home team and crowd into a favorable light and casts the blame on Georgetown players -- which if you'll notice on this board -- plays into the initial conclusions that somehow Georgetown's previous reputation may have somehow contributed to this blowup. Yes it's a veiled, sarcastic post both poking fun at the Chinese government and the fact that if that type of fight happened in the U.S., some host players would most likely have faced charges (the ones who isolated the Hoya and pummeled him on the floor and attacked him with chairs) as it went well beyond just an on the court skirmish IMO. It's a moot point now -- both sides have said it's water under the bridge and they get to make up on Sunday. No doubt they will hug it out, exchange white doves and peace laurels and get back to playing the game.

DukieInKansas
08-19-2011, 05:45 PM
More from that same article:
snip
“Aren’t Bayi players soldiers? Why would they beat up a bunch of college students?” asked one posting. “What a loss of face for the people’s army!” Others made light of the situation. “The Bayi team sure is lousy at basketball and should try some other sport — like boxing.”

snip


This comment is hysterical. I love that humor can be international. :D

77devil
08-19-2011, 08:50 PM
For all the folks who doubted me when I said that the Chinese government would not be pleased (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/world/asia/20basketball.html?_r=2&hp) with this
-Jason

Your selection is a NYT reporter expressing an opinion without any attribution to support it. I think the following is the more relevant passage from the article.

"One of the few newspapers to cover the fight, The Beijing News, blamed the referee for poorly officiating the game and security guards for inaction during the fisticuffs. The paper, however, suggested that the Hoya coach, John Thompson III, had a hand in the skirmish, and that Georgetown was known for its aggressive defensive tactics. " (emphasis mine)

I see no reference to the team and the spin on Georgetown and it's coach is no coincidence.

Your missing the point Jason. Of course the government apparatchik is displeased anytime a situation puts the country in a bad light, but publicly admitting as much instead of spinning is an altogether different matter.

weezie
08-19-2011, 09:07 PM
From today's (and every day's) worst sports section in the entire universe and Miss Sally Jenkins,
"It’s one thing to have a bench-clearing brawl between New York and Detroit, or Duke and Maryland. It’s quite another to have one in China."

What? Which brawls is she referencing?

77devil
08-19-2011, 09:19 PM
From today's (and every day's) worst sports section in the entire universe and Miss Sally Jenkins,
"It’s one thing to have a bench-clearing brawl between New York and Detroit, or Duke and Maryland. It’s quite another to have one in China."

What? Which brawls is she referencing?

Second worst behind the NYT. ;)

ForkFondler
08-19-2011, 09:36 PM
Second worst behind the NYT. ;)

The Post has a sports section that covers pro sports reasonably well. College sports, not really.

The Times has a collection of human interest stories on people who happen to be athletes. They also occasionally report scores.

Devilsfan
08-19-2011, 09:51 PM
G'town is representing the youth of America and they are involved in a brawl. It's a sad reflection on their coach. He should have better control over his players. He selected them, gave them a scholly to a high academic institution in our nations capitol. A school that our President has been known to be present at their games. Why would any academic school want to be represented by players who participate in a brawl in China. This type of action is what's wrong with college sports today. I'm glad Duke athletes set the Gold standard for integrity and public behavior.

OldPhiKap
08-19-2011, 10:19 PM
G'town is representing the youth of America and they are involved in a brawl. It's a sad reflection on their coach. He should have better control over his players. He selected them, gave them a scholly to a high academic institution in our nations capitol. A school that our President has been known to be present at their games. Why would any academic school want to be represented by players who participate in a brawl in China. This type of action is what's wrong with college sports today. I'm glad Duke athletes set the Gold standard for integrity and public behavior.

If someone hit our players with a chair, they've done the same.

I'm not a G-Town fan, but from what I saw they were not the cause of the riot here.






{Somewhere, Christian Laettner is wondering what the big deal is here.}

jdj4duke
08-19-2011, 11:27 PM
From today's (and every day's) worst sports section in the entire universe and Miss Sally Jenkins,
"It’s one thing to have a bench-clearing brawl between ......... Duke and Maryland. It’s quite another to have one in China."


Good gawd but she is lazy. Forget the hyperbole and inaccuracy, but can't she come up with something that might be a little more original instead of going back to the same tired well? Obviously not, but what a poor piece of work.

Reilly
08-20-2011, 12:02 AM
I have been waiting for someone to draw this analogy, which seems both apt and inevitable. But I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from it, as I'm also not sure what conclusion to draw from your cleverly sarcastic post.

I think the conclusion to draw is obvious: bowling alley brawls are "just practice" for the real deal.

In America, chair wielding led to an over-charge (the Court of Appeals found that there was not enough evidence to convict the Answer of maiming by mob), but at least there was a charge for violence, and due process, and an opinion, and all that other silly law and order and rights stuff. In China, it will be interesting to watch and see what we get for similar chair wielding -- other than PR pronouncements and the like. Any prosecutions?

Jim3k
08-20-2011, 05:09 AM
Also in America, in 2005 Texas Ranger pitcher Frank Francisco was sentenced after pleading guilty to the misdemeanor charge of throwing a chair which struck and injured a female fan during a game with the Oakland A's. ESPN's archived story. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2098227)

Thirty days on a work detail (ten off for good behavior), 26 anger management sessions.

I was about 40 feet away from the incident and was stunned by the stupidity of it.

viperflt
08-20-2011, 08:01 AM
It would be interesting to have a rough translation of the voices heard on that video. (I would assume that it is something along the lines of can you believe what is happening, someone should stop this.) It also seemed like there was an announcer talking as the Georgetown team left and bottles flew - that would be really interesting to have translated.


OK - true confession time. My recording of yesterday's Duke game did not happen. How was the attendence at our two games? This video of the Georgetown games looks like it was a really empty arena. Just curious for a crowd size comparison.


I was at the Shanghai game and the attendance was OK -- certainly not full. The entire upper deck of the area is empty (there were not even selling tickets for it).
The arena seats 18,000 people and I'd say there were about 5,000-7,000 people there. More than half were pro-Duke.

The refs were very one sided and Coach K did his proper yelling at the refs. When one of the calls got reversed (possession arrow), he "bowed" to the refs.

hillsborodevil
08-20-2011, 08:11 AM
China did this........G'Town did that.........or even worse putting a political spin between two great countries.

Unfortunately, this happens everywhere around the globe - players and fans are passionate about sports.

If you want to throw blame please do so at the refs for letting the game get out of hand long before the brawl - or the NCAA for allowing NCAA teams to compete in China with Chinese refs only. The same thing would happen if Nolan/Kyrie officiated this years Duke/Carolina game.

When Duke plays an out of conference opponent do you think the game is officiated by ACC officials only?

viperflt
08-20-2011, 08:21 AM
First, this is only a game. Bench clearing brawls happen in many places, so don't make this out to be some international incident. To say this incident is representative of China is like saying when there is a bench clearing brawl in the NBA, it represents all of USA.

I live in China and while this incident is mostly blocked, many people know and those who have seen the videos and photos, and the discussions here, all say China team is at fault and the security was incompetent. It's outrageous to suggest GT leave China because of this, and even more outrageous to suggest Duke leave China because of this. That's like saying after an NBA brawl, they should cancel the rest of the season!

Some other parts of this site refereed to audio of Chinese that referred to "black devil" - a highly discriminatory word. Keep in mind this phrase is very rare in China. It's more common in Chinese-American community, but really from 20-30 years ago. Those who yelled this at the game may very well be US citizens. People in China don't usually have such racial bias on Americans.

By the way, I was at the Duke Shanghai game on Thursday. The crowd was mostly ex-pats and most of the Chinese there speak fluent English and looks to have spent significant time in USA. Many in the crowd, including ethnic Chinese were also yelling at the refs. The lady next to me (Chinese) was yelling at the ref saying (in Chinese) "Aren't you ashamed to be so biased". I'd imagine the Beijing GT game had similar crowd mix so this is not a typical Chinese crowd.

You actually have to be pretty well of to attend these games -- The Duke game was expensive! top tick is RMB880 (USD$137) and the cheapest is around RMB330 (USD$50).

TheItinerantSon
08-20-2011, 02:44 PM
JTIIIs Georgetown teams have been rather finesse-y and not particularly physical at all. So the people who are trying to invoke John Thompson the elder and the physicality of the georgetown teams of the 1980s are being rather silly (if not motivated by baser prejudices). More relevant would the chinese national basketball programs extensive history of fighting at international events.




Also this is the most preposterous statement i've read all year:

"People in China don't usually have such racial bias on Americans."

killerleft
08-20-2011, 02:53 PM
I have a question for those more knowledgeable regarding the inner-workings of Chinese politics.

Is there a reasonable chance, independent of what is said publicly about the brawl, the government may punish any Chinese players and/or coaches privately for their part in it? Severe secret penalties do seem to be the Chinese Way.

Maybe my question seems unneeded, but nobody has mentioned what may be in store for those people behind the scenes.

viperflt
08-20-2011, 10:39 PM
JTIIIs Georgetown teams have been rather finesse-y and not particularly physical at all. So the people who are trying to invoke John Thompson the elder and the physicality of the georgetown teams of the 1980s are being rather silly (if not motivated by baser prejudices). More relevant would the chinese national basketball programs extensive history of fighting at international events.




Also this is the most preposterous statement i've read all year:

"People in China don't usually have such racial bias on Americans."

Why do you think that? How do you know?

viperflt
08-20-2011, 10:42 PM
I have a question for those more knowledgeable regarding the inner-workings of Chinese politics.

Is there a reasonable chance, independent of what is said publicly about the brawl, the government may punish any Chinese players and/or coaches privately for their part in it? Severe secret penalties do seem to be the Chinese Way.

Maybe my question seems unneeded, but nobody has mentioned what may be in store for those people behind the scenes.

Very likely -- that's the way Chinese handles things. They probably won't ever say anything in public, but privately, they will deal with it.

proelitedota
08-21-2011, 05:42 PM
Let's just say that the Bayi player's ears are still ringing from the tirade that they got from the sergeant, and outside of basketball, their careers in everything else is pretty much over.

licc85
08-21-2011, 08:06 PM
Let's just say that the Bayi player's ears are still ringing from the tirade that they got from the sergeant, and outside of basketball, their careers in everything else is pretty much over.

I don't think this is too much of a stretch from the actual truth. I REALLY can't imagine the government doing anything less, but obviously, we'll never know about it for sure. While it is a pretty severe punishment for a basketball brawl, it did look extremely bad for the Chinese hosts and for Chinese athletics in general. The government probably wasn't too happy, I almost feel bad for them now.

uh_no
08-21-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't think this is too much of a stretch from the actual truth. I REALLY can't imagine the government doing anything less, but obviously, we'll never know about it for sure. While it is a pretty severe punishment for a basketball brawl, it did look extremely bad for the Chinese hosts and for Chinese athletics in general. The government probably wasn't too happy, I almost feel bad for them now.

With the amount of charade that was put up for the olympics, it becomes clear that one of the chinese government's main goals is to appear dazzling to the west. This stage of basketball games against US universities was likely means to the same end.

licc85
08-22-2011, 12:26 AM
So apparently, the Bayi Rockets are known for fighting. For those of you who weren't familiar with their background, they are affiliated with the People's Liberation Army, which was started in 1927 as the military branch of the newly established communist regime. They are indeed trained in hand to hand combat and Zhu Fangyu, from the Chinese the national team was once famously quoted saying "When Bayi can’t put up shots, they put up their fists instead."

I also found a hilarious article which discusses how each of our players would deal with a similar situation, enjoy:

http://tobaccoroadblues.com/2011/08/21/if-the-dukies-have-to-fight/

Greg_Newton
08-22-2011, 04:05 AM
I also found a hilarious article which discusses how each of our players would deal with a similar situation, enjoy:

http://tobaccoroadblues.com/2011/08/21/if-the-dukies-have-to-fight/

I thought Tyler Thornton's analysis was particularly hilarious:


If you’re China, this is the guy you don’t want to see in the fight. Thornton is a classic self-preserver, excelling despite his height and limited ability. When someone like him ends up at Duke, it really says something; he knows how to get [stuff] done. So when the brawl started, he’d disappear. If you saw his initial movements, you’d think he was a coward. But he’d be circling around, waiting for the right moment, and then he’d become absolute hell for the enemy. The minute any Chinese player engaged a Dukie, he’d have like 5 seconds before Thornton hit him from behind in the balls or kidney. By the time they turned around, he’d be gone. He’d spend most of the fight crawling between people’s knees. At the end of the fight, Thornton would be the one guy with no bruises and who wasn’t having any kind of adrenaline rush. He’s the definition of a dude who can handle himself.

OldSchool
08-22-2011, 08:00 PM
I agree that the particular incident started with the shove/punch. But I have trouble believing the shove/punch alone was enough to start the melee that resulted. There had to be a LOT of questionable incidents (both ways) leading up to that shove/punch. I just can't imagine an isolated swing setting off such an incident so quickly. The Chinese had to be ready to fight already, and that was likely spawned by previous proceedings.

Given the location, the difference in ages/experience, and the way it escalated, I'd have to put a LOT more blame on the Chinese side. Georgetown certainly isn't without blame, though, as it's hard to excuse taking a swing at someone in a basketball game.

ESPNU showed the fight at halftime of today's China-Duke game.

Slowing it down to look at frame-by-frame, I agree that the spark that set off the melee was when Jason Clark took a swing at #10 for Bayi, after #10 had just come down hard on Clark trying to stuff a pass by Clark.

What the Chinese players did after that was completely inexcusable.

But what a complete friggin' idiot Jason Clark was. Most of us have played against guys who just don't like us and maybe we don't like them. So there are some hard plays and some hard fouls that happen. Some guy intentionally elbows you in the rib going for a rebound, maybe he gets a shoulder in the solar plexus on the other end at the next contesting of a rebound.

But in my view when someone takes a swing at another player having nothing to do with a play on or for the ball, which is what Jason Clark did, that takes things to another level entirely, even in a chippy game when guys are taking cheap shots at each other when making plays on the ball.

I'm reminded of Dave Neal's pick on Nolan Smith a couple of years back at Maryland. Some thought it was legal play, I thought it was a moving pick and a cheap shot. But instead of taking a swing at a Maryland player, Gerald Henderson threw down a massive dunk and Duke handed them a L.

Again, what Jason Clark did doesn't excuse the reprehensible response by the Chinese players to his punch.

CDu
08-23-2011, 09:17 AM
ESPNU showed the fight at halftime of today's China-Duke game.

Slowing it down to look at frame-by-frame, I agree that the spark that set off the melee was when Jason Clark took a swing at #10 for Bayi, after #10 had just come down hard on Clark trying to stuff a pass by Clark.

What the Chinese players did after that was completely inexcusable.

But what a complete friggin' idiot Jason Clark was. Most of us have played against guys who just don't like us and maybe we don't like them. So there are some hard plays and some hard fouls that happen. Some guy intentionally elbows you in the rib going for a rebound, maybe he gets a shoulder in the solar plexus on the other end at the next contesting of a rebound.

But in my view when someone takes a swing at another player having nothing to do with a play on or for the ball, which is what Jason Clark did, that takes things to another level entirely, even in a chippy game when guys are taking cheap shots at each other when making plays on the ball.

I'm reminded of Dave Neal's pick on Nolan Smith a couple of years back at Maryland. Some thought it was legal play, I thought it was a moving pick and a cheap shot. But instead of taking a swing at a Maryland player, Gerald Henderson threw down a massive dunk and Duke handed them a L.

Again, what Jason Clark did doesn't excuse the reprehensible response by the Chinese players to his punch.

What Clark did was unacceptable. But we also don't know how much other stuff happened prior to Clark's swipe at the Chinese player. I have trouble believing that Clark's swipe came out of nowhere, and I have trouble believing that a singular shove/swing like Clark's would incite such an over-the-top response. I suspect that a lot of lesser stuff happened prior to that entire incident.

Neither team is without blame in this. Clark shouldn't have shoved/swung at the Chinese player, and the Chinese team shouldn't have gone postal from there. But I can almost guarantee that a lot of stuff happened that led to the boiling over for Clark and then for the Chinese team.