Miami could be in biiig trouble

[JasonEvans]

Yikes, Hurricane football could be in deep !#%^#&*

According to an article at CBS Sportsline (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/15439998/ncaa-looking-into-boosters-claims-that-miami-players-took-cash)...


A source confirmed that the focus of the investigation stems from claims made by Nevin Shapiro, a Miami booster who has been convicted of running a multimillion dollar Ponzi scheme. He is working on a tell-all book about the claims, which is expected to name nearly 100 athletes at the school who broke NCAA rules since 2001. Shapiro donated $150,000 to the athletic department and was a frequent guest on the sidelines at Hurricanes practices and games.

Palm Beach Post beat writer Jorge Milian reported Sunday night that Shapiro would also be the focus of a damaging story from Yahoo! Sports.

One source said Miami was "in big trouble" as a result of the claims and that Shapiro would be able to back up his allegations. Most of the allegations focus on Miami football players receiving money and other benefits as a result of playing for the Hurricanes.

One rogue booster... that is all it takes.

-Jason "The ACC is becoming the SEC in a really bad way" Evans

[devildeac]

Yikes, Hurricane football could be in deep !#%^#&*

According to an article at CBS Sportsline (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/15439998/ncaa-looking-into-boosters-claims-that-miami-players-took-cash)...



One rogue booster... that is all it takes.

-Jason "The ACC is becoming the SEC in a really bad way" Evans

Hmmm, wonder if he knew butch when he was there from 1995-2000 and then had any subsequent connections with the Cleveland Browns from 2001-04.

[OldPhiKap]

UNC
GT
Clemson
Miami

all within a very short time. Disgusting if true.

[hurleyfor3]

And why would everyone need to join the SEC? Seems the SEC has come to us.

[jimsumner]

UNC
GT
Clemson
Miami

all within a very short time. Disgusting if true.

Clemson? Do you mean Florida State?

[OldPhiKap]

Clemson? Do you mean Florida State?

I wish:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Clemson-reports-12-NCAA-violations.html


But probably them, too.

[Duvall]

I wish:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Clemson-reports-12-NCAA-violations.html


But probably them, too.

It's not fair to compare Clemson to North Carolina based only on secondary violations, even 12 of them at once.

[OldPhiKap]

It's not fair to compare Clemson to North Carolina based only on secondary violations, even 12 of them at once.

That is both the saddest, and funniest, thing I have read in a long time.

[Bluedog]

It's not fair to compare Clemson to North Carolina based only on secondary violations, even 12 of them at once.


That is both the saddest, and funniest, thing I have read in a long time.

I personally agree with Duvall that major infractions are much more significant and newsworthy than secondary violations. Secondary violations occur all the time and are usually inadvertent. Not a blatant "student got money" scheme. Here is how the NCAA defines a secondary violation:


Secondary violation: A secondary violation is an isolated or inadvertent violation that provides or intends to provide only minimal recruiting, competitive or other advantages. Secondary violations do not include extra benefits or any significant recruiting benefits. If a school commits several secondary violations, they may collectively be considered a major infraction. Secondary violations occur frequently and are usually resolved administratively.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Issues/Enforcement/Rules+Enforcement+glossary+of+terms

While it's certainly not a good thing to occur, it happens. I believe Coach Collins got hit with a secondary violation a season or two ago.

[jimsumner]

I wish:

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Clemson-reports-12-NCAA-violations.html


But probably them, too.

These are inconsequential. FSU had wins vacated just a few years ago, essentially ending Bowden's efforts to overtake Paterno in career wins.

[CameronBornAndBred]

UNC
GT
Clemson
Miami

all within a very short time. Disgusting if true.
Also all under John Swofford's watchful eye of the ACC. I don't think he is to blame, but he should face some accountability. This is from wikipedia...

During his tenure he has doubled the ACC's annual revenue, served as Chairman of the Bowl Championship Series (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/wiki/Bowl_Championship_Series) in college football in 2000 and 2001, and expanded the ACC to include Boston College (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/wiki/Boston_College), Virginia Tech (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/wiki/Virginia_Polytechnic_Institute_and_State_Universit y), and the University of Miami (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/wiki/University_of_Miami).
So in just over 10 years, the ACC's revenue has doubled, in part because of the powerhouse football programs of Miami and VT. But obviously when money is to be made, rules get broken, and people look the other way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Swofford

[OldPhiKap]

These are inconsequential. FSU had wins vacated just a few years ago, essentially ending Bowden's efforts to overtake Paterno in career wins.

Not arguing relative weight -- we agree on that. My point was that there is a recent splash of ACC teams in the news for violations. Stories about all of those schools have been in the papers the last six months.

And you are correct that, prior to UNC, FSU's punishment was the largest in recent years. We need to go back to Clemson in the 1980's to get something as large, IIRC.

[throatybeard]

1986

[CameronBornAndBred]

One quick note, since DBR is always quick to point out that it's all allegations until proven otherwise...the guy pointing the finger just got sent away for 20 years, so it's not like he's an admirable character to be trusted. Doesn't mean that what he says isn't true, but it may be a long while before anything comes of this other than speculation.

[hq2]

Gee. What a surprise. Never would have suspected it.

[OldPhiKap]

On the plus side, there may be an opening for Butch Davis to return and clean up the program.

[tommy]

All I can say is that if these allegations are true, these folks didn't get their money's worth.

[hq2]

They didn't? So what's the going rate?

[Devilsfan]

Maybe they can finally beat the Buckeyes at something.

[JasonEvans]

One quick note, since DBR is always quick to point out that it's all allegations until proven otherwise...the guy pointing the finger just got sent away for 20 years, so it's not like he's an admirable character to be trusted. Doesn't mean that what he says isn't true, but it may be a long while before anything comes of this other than speculation.

Excellent point and very true.

The articles on this seem to say that the accuser claims to have all kinds of documentation and proof. We shall see.

-Jason "I hope it is untrue... but the history at Miami and many other big programs gives me pause" Evans

[formerdukeathlete]

One quick note, since DBR is always quick to point out that it's all allegations until proven otherwise...the guy pointing the finger just got sent away for 20 years, so it's not like he's an admirable character to be trusted. Doesn't mean that what he says isn't true, but it may be a long while before anything comes of this other than speculation.

http://www.flsd.uscourts.gov/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/2010-136In-re-Order-on-the-Report-and-Recommendation-of-the-Ad-Hoc-Committee-of-Attorney-Maria-Elena-Perez11-13-10.pdf

Shapiro's attorney, who is providing information to the NCAA, has had her problems in her law practice and was the subject of a Peer Review and Attorney Grievance brought into Federal District Court. That was negative publicity. I would think she may be relishing all the attention right now, as a positive in getter her name out there. This may have no bearing on the accuracy of what she is purporting. Just may be worth noting that she, as well, does not appear to be squeakly clean.

[Duvall]

Shapiro's attorney, who is providing information to the NCAA, has had her problems in her law practice and was the subject of a Peer Review and Attorney Grievance brought into Federal District Court. That was negative publicity. I would think she may be relishing all the attention right now, as a positive in getter her name out there.

Or perhaps not (http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news?slug=cr-renegade_miami_booster_details_illicit_benefits_08 1611).


In an effort to substantiate the booster’s claims, Yahoo! Sports audited approximately 20,000 pages of financial and business records from his bankruptcy case, more than 5,000 pages of cell phone records, multiple interview summaries tied to his federal Ponzi case, and more than 1,000 photos. Nearly 100 interviews were also conducted with individuals living in six different states. In the process, documents, photos and 21 human sources – including nine former Miami players or recruits, and one former coach – corroborated multiple parts of Shapiro’s rule-breaking.

[arydolphin]

Boom goes the dynamite: http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news?slug=cr-renegade_miami_booster_details_illicit_benefits_08 1611

[Duvall]

A couple more investigations and Ted Roof's career record might get above .500.

[mkline09]

I'm not sure even Jack Burton could get the Canes out of this jam. His reflexes just aren't that good.

[theAlaskanBear]

Anyone catch the parts about Frank Haith and Miami Basketball. This is going to be very very ugly. Basically he confesses to paying 10k for a baskeballer w/ the cooperation of an Assistant Coach, AND that Haith was an attendee at a strip club soiree put on for players. A lot of information about the basketball program as you read on.

A must read article!

[formerdukeathlete]

This is an incredible article. Do we have an ethics / morals clause re membership in the ACC?

[Newton_14]

Can I ask a dumb question? Why on earth would this booster guy spill his guts on wrong-doing he was at the center of? Did he get less prison time for doing this?

Not that I am not glad it came out. If all this is true, then it needs to come out so Miami can get punished fully, and can start the process of cleaning up both programs. I just find it odd that the booster would spill the beans.

I guess Missouri is hating life right about now as well. The ACC is taking hits left and right. There is also another UNC story out today as well..

[theAlaskanBear]

Can I ask a dumb question? Why on earth would this booster guy spill his guts on wrong-doing he was at the center of? Did he get less prison time for doing this?

Not that I am not glad it came out. If all this is true, then it needs to come out so Miami can get punished fully, and can start the process of cleaning up both programs. I just find it odd that the booster would spill the beans.

I guess Missouri is hating life right about now as well. The ACC is taking hits left and right. There is also another UNC story out today as well..

Well, his life is pretty muched screwed up either way...its not going to help him and probably will just alienate him more by taking down the university. I call it the Canseco clause. Its a big FU (note: not Florida University), and he can now moralistically wag his figure and say, but look at everyone around me, its the culture and I was just a part of it.

Unfortunately, I worry about the opposite of the ACC taking hits. What I worry about is that people will say, "Wow, not even the ACC can keep clean" and throw their hands up and stop trying altogether.

[Verga3]

This is an incredible article. Do we have an ethics / morals clause re membership in the ACC?

What should the ACC do about this? Be proactive? Wait for NCAA?

Another unmitigated mess for our proud Conference. Sad to see.

[Duvall]

This is an incredible article. Do we have an ethics / morals clause re membership in the ACC?

Yes - Duke, Wake and Virginia may get expelled for having them.

[Duvall]

What should the ACC do about this? Be proactive? Wait for NCAA?


Too late for much action there - Miami has a new athletic director, football coach and basketball coach.

[Newton_14]

Well, his life is pretty muched screwed up either way...its not going to help him and probably will just alienate him more by taking down the university. I call it the Canseco clause. Its a big FU (note: not Florida University), and he can now moralistically wag his figure and say, but look at everyone around me, its the culture and I was just a part of it.

Unfortunately, I worry about the opposite of the ACC taking hits. What I worry about is that people will say, "Wow, not even the ACC can keep clean" and throw their hands up and stop trying altogether.

Thanks. I should have read the Yahoo article before posting. It had the answer to my question. Once he got in legal trouble, he reached out to the former players he had provided benefits to, thinking that since they were his "family" they would help him in his time of need. He got squat. Seems none of them were interested in helping him, so Shapiro says fine, I will blow the whistle and rat out all of you and take "The U" down in flames.

The penalties if all of this turns out to be true, will be incredibly harsh. Likely the worst penalties since SMU.

[Verga3]

Too late for much action there - Miami has a new athletic director, football coach and basketball coach.

Tough luck for the current regime. The NCAA will look at the institution. Will the ACC (or Miami) proactively recommend any action/sanctions before the NCAA gets their chops into this? Maybe they should consult Holden Thorp first...

[Atlanta Duke]

Boom goes the dynamite: http://sports.yahoo.com/investigations/news?slug=cr-renegade_miami_booster_details_illicit_benefits_08 1611

Yep - trying to explain booster financing of alleged stripper abortions to the NCAA compliance cops is never a good thing

In one instance, Shapiro described taking a player to the Pink Pony strip club and paying for a dancer to engage in sex with the athlete. In the ensuing weeks, Shapiro said the dancer called one of his security providers and informed him that the player had gotten her pregnant during the incident. Shapiro said he gave the dancer $500 to have an abortion performed, without notifying the player of the incident.

“I was doing him a favor,” the booster said. “That idiot might have wanted to keep [the baby].”

[devildeac]

A couple more investigations and Ted Roof's career record might get above .500.

That just might make us bowl eligible sometime during 2003-07.

1989

[devildeac]

Can I ask a dumb question? Why on earth would this booster guy spill his guts on wrong-doing he was at the center of? Did he get less prison time for doing this?

Not that I am not glad it came out. If all this is true, then it needs to come out so Miami can get punished fully, and can start the process of cleaning up both programs. I just find it odd that the booster would spill the beans.

I guess Missouri is hating life right about now as well. The ACC is taking hits left and right. There is also another UNC story out today as well..

What's the new unc story? I have not seen that one yet.

1990

[Newton_14]

What's the new unc story? I have not seen that one yet.

1990

I just posted it in the UNC thread. Enjoy!

I was busy digesting the Yahoo article on Miami, which was a lot. Is there anything the guy did not provide the Miami players, and coaches, and assistants, and equipment managers, mothers, girlfriends, ... did I leave anyone out? If John Blake was "Black Santa", what the heck was Shapiro called??:)

[theAlaskanBear]

I just posted it in the UNC thread. Enjoy!

I was busy digesting the Yahoo article on Miami, which was a lot. Is there anything the guy did not provide the Miami players, and coaches, and assistants, and equipment managers, mothers, girlfriends, ... did I leave anyone out? If John Blake was "Black Santa", what the heck was Shapiro called??:)

White Christmas? :eek:

The real damage here is going to be the fact assistant coaches (in both football and basketball) and Frank Haith were involved. It's bad enough for coaches to ignore student-booster relationships, but they actively participated in them on enough occasions to make it seem normal! And it's not just "money for food and tvs" but illegal activities like prostitution (seems like the main thing, actually) in hotels and private yachts. I was like wow, all you need are some drugs and this guy is the stereotypical florida druglord.

That is a lack of institutional control at the basest level.

[devildeac]

I just posted it in the UNC thread. Enjoy!

I was busy digesting the Yahoo article on Miami, which was a lot. Is there anything the guy did not provide the Miami players, and coaches, and assistants, and equipment managers, mothers, girlfriends, ... did I leave anyone out? If John Blake was "Black Santa", what the heck was Shapiro called??:)

Just looked at the thread and saw it. Thanks!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Too late for much action there - Miami has a new athletic director, football coach and basketball coach.

You have to wonder whether they saw all this coming down and began cleaning house.

This is disheartening on so many levels. I am true blue through and through. But growing up in Florida, I was (and to a degree still am) a big UM football fan. My dad's an alum. We were among the few who would admit to loving the U. Never missed watching the canes in their prime back in the days of Schnellenberger and Johnson. Catholics vs. Convicts, etc. I guess we always figured deep down that the convicts moniker was an earned one. But this is just disgusting to see this level of blatant disregard for the breaking of rules. My UM gear will now be stowed indefinitely. I hope they don't get the death penalty. But I imagine this will be very ugly and very damaging to the program for a long, long time. Deservedly so.

For me, this serves as a valuable reminder... no matter what our results are at the end of each football or basketball season, we can wear our true blue colors with great pride knowing that we have leaders like Cut and K doing it the right way. More than I can say for those loathsome fans of the school down the road. I swear I can sense that touch of reticence from many of them these days as they mope about in their porta potty blue t-shirts.

[g-money]

WOW - that is one heck of an article. I'd say this reporting tops George Dohrmann's SI expose of Ohio State in terms of journalistic depth and quality. Of course, the egregiousness of Miami's sins makes it an easy target.

SMU sounds like a good analogy to this case. I was thinking that a "modern-day UNLV" might be appropriate but it's probably not severe enough. Heck, if all these things are proven true maybe Miami deserves a dictionary entry all its own.

The question is: With OSU, UNC, and Miami all blowing up this summer, is there any chance we could see a serious reform of college athletics? The state of affairs can't get any sorrier.

[A-Tex Devil]

Checking out the latest donation to the U's AD with our man Nevin and Frank Haith....

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5630/1313229436.jpg

[Verga3]

You have to wonder whether they saw all this coming down and began cleaning house.

This is disheartening on so many levels. I am true blue through and through. But growing up in Florida, I was (and to a degree still am) a big UM football fan. My dad's an alum. We were among the few who would admit to loving the U. Never missed watching the canes in their prime back in the days of Schnellenberger and Johnson. Catholics vs. Convicts, etc. I guess we always figured deep down that the convicts moniker was an earned one. But this is just disgusting to see this level of blatant disregard for the breaking of rules. My UM gear will now be stowed indefinitely. I hope they don't get the death penalty. But I imagine this will be very ugly and very damaging to the program for a long, long time. Deservedly so.

For me, this serves as a valuable reminder... no matter what our results are at the end of each football or basketball season, we can wear our true blue colors with great pride knowing that we have leaders like Cut and K doing it the right way. More than I can say for those loathsome fans of the school down the road. I swear I can sense that touch of reticence from many of them these days as they mope about in their porta potty blue t-shirts.

Great post, albeit it tough one for you and your family. Miami was a very different school when your dad was there. It had/has great academics, but the "U" of the last couple of decades has not brought near enough pride and warm feelings to alums and fans like you. Sad deal. Feel for you.

[throatybeard]

I was like wow, all you need are some drugs and this guy is the stereotypical florida druglord.

Say hello to my little friend!

[A-Tex Devil]

What is more sobering is what this means for the ACC. I think the chances of Miami getting the death penalty are slim to none, but they are going to be crippled. They don't have the alumni base, fan support, or strength in the athletic department to overcome what I think are going to be some pretty harsh sanctions of more than 2 years. Shalala has to go. I feel bad for Al Golden and Shawn Eichorst. Especially Eichorst. He's going to get vilified even though this was on Kirby Hocutt's and Paul Dee's watch.

So now we have the equivalent of an SMU/Tulane in the ACC bringing nothing to the table at a time when TV contracts and conference realignment are potentially (but hopefully not) going to blow up the status quo. Does Miami being crippled give VaTech/FSU/Clemson more incentive to listen to the SEC? Does it reverse fields where if the Big East does get an ACC comparable TV contract (doubtful, but possible) that the balance of power shifts back to the Big East? All speculation, but we are about to have the equivalent of 1990 SMU in our conference starting next year (there are going to be mass transfers from the U --- poor Seantrell Henderson). Follow the trajectory of the Southwest Conference after SMUs return. It's not pretty.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I always like to look in and see what the local press is saying. In unc's case, the press ran away and hid. Miami is a bit different, probably because they are much more national. Either way, here's an opinion piece from the the Miami Herald.

The smoke that you see at the University of Miami is a five-alarm blaze
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/08/17/2362429/the-smoke-that-you-see-at-the.html

[CameronBornAndBred]

I feel bad for Al Golden and Shawn Eichorst. Especially Eichorst. He's going to get vilified even though this was on Kirby Hocutt's and Paul Dee's watch.

From Heather Dinich's blog.

Golden said he did not read the Yahoo! Sports story published Tuesday, and he did not feel blindsided by the allegations. However, he did say that if university officials had known about any of this, they should have told him before he was hired. Still, Golden said he and his family are happy at Miami.

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/27527/al-golden-remains-calm-and-collected

[killerleft]

You have to wonder whether they saw all this coming down and began cleaning house.

This is disheartening on so many levels. I am true blue through and through. But growing up in Florida, I was (and to a degree still am) a big UM football fan. My dad's an alum. We were among the few who would admit to loving the U. Never missed watching the canes in their prime back in the days of Schnellenberger and Johnson. Catholics vs. Convicts, etc. I guess we always figured deep down that the convicts moniker was an earned one. But this is just disgusting to see this level of blatant disregard for the breaking of rules. My UM gear will now be stowed indefinitely. I hope they don't get the death penalty. But I imagine this will be very ugly and very damaging to the program for a long, long time. Deservedly so.

For me, this serves as a valuable reminder... no matter what our results are at the end of each football or basketball season, we can wear our true blue colors with great pride knowing that we have leaders like Cut and K doing it the right way. More than I can say for those loathsome fans of the school down the road. I swear I can sense that touch of reticence from many of them these days as they mope about in their porta potty blue t-shirts.

Well said regarding the right way to do things. For me, having Duke win by doing things "the Carolina-Miami Way" would completely obliterate any satisfaction gained from winning. Build it slow, but build it right. A top-twenty team done that way will be an achievement which will make us proud.

I still can't believe that many in Tarheelia Nation are still lamenting the goneness of Butch.

[Acymetric]

From Heather Dinich's blog.

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/27527/al-golden-remains-calm-and-collected


Golden said he did not read the Yahoo! Sports story published Tuesday, and he did not feel blindsided by the allegations. However, he did say that if university officials had known about any of this, they should have told him before he was hired. Still, Golden said he and his family are happy at Miami.

Don't really care how he says he feels...if he didn't know about this beforehand then he was blindsided.

[Chard]

For those interested, here is an article about Shapiro (http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2010-12-16/news/nevin-shapiro-miami-s-caligula/).

Many sides to a story with the truth somewhere in the midst.

[Ping Lin]

What is more sobering is what this means for the ACC. I think the chances of Miami getting the death penalty are slim to none.

Just curious why you feel this is the case? SMU rather famously got the death penalty, and from where I sit, this whole mess looks even worse. Personally, even though it will probably hurt the conference, I think I'd support the death penalty here -- if you're not going to impose it in this case, really, when will you ever?

[A-Tex Devil]

Just curious why you feel this is the case? SMU rather famously got the death penalty, and from where I sit, this whole mess looks even worse. Personally, even though it will probably hurt the conference, I think I'd support the death penalty here -- if you're not going to impose it in this case, really, when will you ever?

I support it too, but after what it did to SMU, I can't believe the NCAA will do it again. Although you and others are right -- if it is in the bylaws, this is the ideal case for it.

If I am Donna Shalala, I pull the plug myself. Although I am sure she'll be forced to resign first.

The craziest thing about all of this is Shapiro trying to fight UM's compliance officer in the press box 3 years ago at the Orange Bowl when UVA slaughtered the 'Canes in the Orange Bowl. If that's not the epitome of loss of institutional control, I don't know what is.

[TexHawk]

I support it too, but after what it did to SMU, I can't believe the NCAA will do it again. Although you and others are right -- if it is in the bylaws, this is the ideal case for it.

Paul Dee helped set the precedent himself with the USC penalties, and that involved only two players (Bush and Mayo). This is 70+. The NCAA does have it's sacred cows, but not sure Miami is considered one.

[JStuart]

I support it too, but after what it did to SMU, I can't believe the NCAA will do it again. Although you and others are right -- if it is in the bylaws, this is the ideal case for it.

If I am Donna Shalala, I pull the plug myself. Although I am sure she'll be forced to resign first.

The craziest thing about all of this is Shapiro trying to fight UM's compliance officer in the press box 3 years ago at the Orange Bowl when UVA slaughtered the 'Canes in the Orange Bowl. If that's not the epitome of loss of institutional control, I don't know what is.

One could argue that allowing an NFL agent's runner/associate as the assistant head coach of a football team, who also is in charge of recruiting is also the epitome of Loss Of Institutional Control, but I'm sure THAT hasn't happened anywhere...

[sagegrouse]

I support it too, but after what it did to SMU, I can't believe the NCAA will do it again. Although you and others are right -- if it is in the bylaws, this is the ideal case for it.

If I am Donna Shalala, I pull the plug myself. Although I am sure she'll be forced to resign first.The craziest thing about all of this is Shapiro trying to fight UM's compliance officer in the press box 3 years ago at the Orange Bowl when UVA slaughtered the 'Canes in the Orange Bowl. If that's not the epitome of loss of institutional control, I don't know what is.

I agree re the "Death Penalty." The SMU experience was a disaster -- the program basically NEVER recovered.

I disagree with respect to Donna Shalala --"pull the plug myself." Do you mean Shalala should cancel football at "The U?" That won't happen. Football is a major part of the University and its links to the community, students, alumni and fans. She'll move aggressively to clean it up, I predict. But maybe I misunderstood your post.

WRT Shalala being forced to resign, I would be really surprised. Of course, she is one of my heroes (although I have met her only once or twice). She has been, by all reports, a crackerjack university president, both at Wisconsin and at Miami. At Wisconsin, after hearing from alumni in her trips around the state, she was responsible for reviving the football program and making it competitive in the Big Ten. But, we'll get to see her exercise all her leadership skills.

sagegrouse

[Nugget]

Paul Dee helped set the precedent himself with the USC penalties, and that involved only two players (Bush and Mayo). This is 70+. The NCAA does have it's sacred cows, but not sure Miami is considered one.

What's even more infuriating about this situation (admittedly, I have been a USC fan since childhood, so have some blinders here) is that:

1. The USC penalties were at least double of what was actually warranted when comparing the nature of the football violations against other similar cases -- not only was this just one player, but it involved payments to him (mostly his parents) by Lloyd Lake, who WAS NOT A BOOSTER, but trying to break into the agent/marketing business, whereas Shapiro was not just paying Miami players, but was also himself BOTH A BOOSTER AND AN AGENT; and

2. Paul Dee's sanctimony in assessing crippling sanctions against USC on the basis that "high profile players require high profile compliance" (a previously-unannounced standard), and the way in which the infactions report dripped with the not-quite-expressly-stated insinuation that there must have been some sort of impropriety based on the fact that Snoop and Will Ferrell could get access to the USC sidelines and locker room.

At the end of the day, it seems, what USC really went down so hard for was that they didn't assume from the get go that Bush (whom USC could not compel to be honest or cooperate because the allegations arose after he left school) had to be on the take and so, instead of publicly pleading guilty and self-sanctioning and "cooperating with the NCAA" [though, again, since no one could compel Bush to talk, how USC would have done more to "cooperate," other than to take a public mea cupla posture, is unclear], USC made the NCAA prove its case. Any lawyer (or, frankly anyone who's just watched Law & Order) will tell you, if you make the prosecutor go to trial, the sentence is worse.

Ohio St. and North Carolina were smart enough to learn from USC's mistake.

Presumably, Miami will be too. Their problem seems to be that the violations are so extensive (and run to the heart of the institution), that it is hard to see how any level of "cooperation" now can justifiably prevent a finding of lack of institutional control and, thus, serious sanctions. Particularly, given Paul Dee's comments during the USC process.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Scary stuff, and scary opinions from anyone with a voice. Basically this is not only going to be an ugly event for the Hurricanes to face, but also the NCAA. I've read at least a half dozen articles this morning calling their credibility into account. (And by the way, this could not have come at a worse time for the heels, who may indeed now face harsher sanctions than they would have, since the NCAA is going to want to show they have the muscle to back up their words.)


If USC got a two-year bowl ban and 30 docked scholarships, what should Miami get for an encyclopedia of allegations so tawdry as to make USC look like a bubble-gum shoplifter? Can you ban a team from the postseason for a decade? Can you take away 90 scholarships? Not likely. All that's seemingly left is the biggie -- the death penalty -- and it's entirely possible: Miami qualifies as a repeat violator for any violations before Feb. 27, 2008, stemming from it mid-90s Pell Grant scandal. But the NCAA hasn't gone there in 25 years.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/08/16/miami.hurricanes.allegations.reaction/index.html?xid=cnnbin&hpt=hp_bn10

[Acymetric]

\2. Paul Dee's sanctimony in assessing crippling sanctions against USC on the basis that "high profile players require high profile compliance" (a previously-unannounced standard), and the way in which the infactions report dripped with the not-quite-expressly-stated insinuation that there must have been some sort of impropriety based on the fact that Snoop and Will Ferrell could get access to the USC sidelines and locker room.

I'm not really sure what you take issue with there...its common sense that if you have players that are at high risk for improper benefits and rules violations (guys that are stars/top players) that you should have a compliance office that operates accordingly. Not doing so is essentially turning a blind eye to what could be (was) going on, and of course the NCAA is going to nail you for that.

[A-Tex Devil]

What's even more infuriating about this situation (admittedly, I have been a USC fan since childhood, so have some blinders here) is that:

1. The USC penalties were at least double of what was actually warranted when comparing the nature of the football violations against other similar cases -- not only was this just one player, but it involved payments to him (mostly his parents) by Lloyd Lake, who WAS NOT A BOOSTER, but trying to break into the agent/marketing business, whereas Shapiro was not just paying Miami players, but was also himself BOTH A BOOSTER AND AN AGENT; and

2. Paul Dee's sanctimony in assessing crippling sanctions against USC on the basis that "high profile players require high profile compliance" (a previously-unannounced standard), and the way in which the infactions report dripped with the not-quite-expressly-stated insinuation that there must have been some sort of impropriety based on the fact that Snoop and Will Ferrell could get access to the USC sidelines and locker room.

At the end of the day, it seems, what USC really went down so hard for was that they didn't assume from the get go that Bush (whom USC could not compel to be honest or cooperate because the allegations arose after he left school) had to be on the take and so, instead of publicly pleading guilty and self-sanctioning and "cooperating with the NCAA" [though, again, since no one could compel Bush to talk, how USC would have done more to "cooperate," other than to take a public mea cupla posture, is unclear], USC made the NCAA prove its case. Any lawyer (or, frankly anyone who's just watched Law & Order) will tell you, if you make the prosecutor go to trial, the sentence is worse.

Ohio St. and North Carolina were smart enough to learn from USC's mistake.

Presumably, Miami will be too. Their problem seems to be that the violations are so extensive (and run to the heart of the institution), that it is hard to see how any level of "cooperation" now can justifiably prevent a finding of lack of institutional control and, thus, serious sanctions. Particularly, given Paul Dee's comments during the USC process.

Paul Dee looks awful here.

But from an outsider's perspective, the reason USC got hit harder than OSU will (although I am not sure about UNC yet) wasn't just because they simply didn't cooperate, and they didn't, it's that USC, all the way to its AD, seemed to be obtrusive and uncooperative - sometimes even arrogant. Confident they didn't do anything wrong. This isn't a criminal case where you want to hide or not dig for things that might hurt your side. If you find something, anything, even if your Ath Dept is completely out of the loop, you turn it in. Immdediately.

[A-Tex Devil]

I agree re the "Death Penalty." The SMU experience was a disaster -- the program basically NEVER recovered.

I disagree with respect to Donna Shalala --"pull the plug myself." Do you mean Shalala should cancel football at "The U?" That won't happen. Football is a major part of the University and its links to the community, students, alumni and fans. She'll move aggressively to clean it up, I predict. But maybe I misunderstood your post.

WRT Shalala being forced to resign, I would be really surprised. Of course, she is one of my heroes (although I have met her only once or twice). She has been, by all reports, a crackerjack university president, both at Wisconsin and at Miami. At Wisconsin, after hearing from alumni in her trips around the state, she was responsible for reviving the football program and making it competitive in the Big Ten. But, we'll get to see her exercise all her leadership skills.

sagegrouse

I just don't know how a University President survives this. This guy was an official booster, with his name on things, for the U, and at the same time committing every NCAA violation imaginable with players and recruits. He tried to fight the compliance director IN THE PRESS BOX, and was still allowed access to the program. I'm not saying she knew, but she should have known. And I am not saying she did anything wrong, but the appearance of impropriety is so plainly there, I think she'll go down with this. Let's just say executives have gone down for a lot worse for things that happened on their watch.

For more fun in NCAA land, listen to Paul Finebaum's program out of Birmingham this afternoon where Danny Sheridan is supposedly going to name the Auburn booster that supposedly paid Cam Newton's dad.

[CameronBornAndBred]

One other thought on the death penalty and those who say that it won't be imposed because the offending parties are no longer there. Well, the breadth of these allegations go way past 2 coaches and one AD. A guy murders someone 20 years ago, if he is caught, even if he hasn't killed anyone else, he's still held accountable. True, the legal courts and the NCAA are two different entities, but both situations have their reasonable similarities. Harsh penalties are handed to criminals for more than just keeping them away from society, they are also handed down as a warning to others. "Think twice, or this may happen to you." Well, being a repeat offender, as an institution, Miami seems to have learned the first time that it maybe it was worth the risk. Other programs obviously seem to feel that way too. Just a thought to not be so surprised if they get the worst the NCAA can offer. 25 years ago, the NCAA didn't say "we are doing this one time, and never again".

[Wander]

There's not mathematically enough room for every program to be as good as their historical best. Some programs, like Michigan football or Kentucky basketball (or, I think, Duke basketball), will survive anything in the long-term. Others, like St John's basketball, are temporary powerhouses. I've long believed Miami to be in the latter category. They're a private school without a particularly strong fan base and have two monster programs in their state (and one or two up-and-comers in UCF and USF).

Miami may not get the death penalty, but their days as one of the sport's powerhouses are over.

[A-Tex Devil]

I agree I think that Miami Football should go away for a while. And now that reports are coming out that Kirby Hocutt gave Shapiro access to the players, this thing is growing faster and faster and is affecting multiple schools -- including Texas Tech, Purdue, Kansas St. and Alabama to name a few.

But back on point, when SMU got the death penalty, it's track and field and swimming programs, and some of its other "Olympic" sports were very, very good. They fell down the tubes, and the men's side for each went away when the football team came back. The money to pay for those sports comes from football. And it does more now than it did then. Without football money, or at least it's portion of the ACC TV share, all of those Olympic sports at Miami are going to shrivel up as well.

Miami will become a dead appendage on the ACC, not only in terms of football, but in all sports, if it gets the death penalty. Maybe it deserves it seeing how complicit their athletic department and multiple coaches appear to be. But if they get the death penalty, it will be SMU all over again for their entire athletic department, brought down by one man's need to hang out with kids half his age, and an athletic department's (and perhaps an administrations) at best gross negligence and at worst complicity.

As an aside -- seeing Craig James on ESPN today claiming he knew nothing about what was going on at SMU is laughable and sad.

[Mal]

But back on point, when SMU got the death penalty, it's track and field and swimming programs, and some of its other "Olympic" sports were very, very good. They fell down the tubes, and the men's side for each went away when the football team came back. The money to pay for those sports comes from football. And it does more now than it did then. Without football money, or at least it's portion of the ACC TV share, all of those Olympic sports at Miami are going to shrivel up as well.

Is this really a problem, though? Current students involved in those sports at Miami suffer some collateral damage by seeing the money to fund those programs dwindle even in the next couple years, yes. But they're not going to fold up shop immediately. Starting with the recruiting class of 2012, Miami won't get the same quality of athlete they've grown accustomed to in its golf, tennis and swimming programs, but those kids will displace someone somewhere else, and on down the line until someone decides to go to Miami and its subpar program. On the other hand, I don't really care that the university would see a longterm decrease in the prominence of its entire sports program, rather than just the football program. Too bad.


Miami will become a dead appendage on the ACC, not only in terms of football, but in all sports, if it gets the death penalty.

This one does concern me, although I feel the ACC's got enough strength in the soccer, baseball, tennis, golf and similar worlds that Miami doesn't add so much it would tarnish the conference's competitiveness in those sports. I don't know what this scandal will mean in terms of potentially driving FSU to the SEC to be their 14th, but I have a feeling losing one of their main rivals and seeing a further dilution of the ACC's already waning football reputation probably doesn't help keep them around. However, that's probably the case even if Miami doesn't get the death penalty. They're going to be on probation for at least a decade and lose dozens of scholarships - enough to permanently remove them from the upper echelons of the college football hierarchy.

That said, I'm an old man now and a hopeless purist who still yearns for the days of a basketball-centric conference with a double round robin schedule, so maybe giving up on the Florida experiment wouldn't be all bad. The trouble will be that we can't slough off Miami anymore as no one will want them, regardless of how this all turns out.

[devildeac]

I'll make a small wager of Ozzie's money that even the SEC won't want Miami now or anytime in the next decade or three:rolleyes:.

[Nugget]

Paul Dee looks awful here.

But from an outsider's perspective, the reason USC got hit harder than OSU will (although I am not sure about UNC yet) wasn't just because they simply didn't cooperate, and they didn't, it's that USC, all the way to its AD, seemed to be obtrusive and uncooperative - sometimes even arrogant. Confident they didn't do anything wrong. This isn't a criminal case where you want to hide or not dig for things that might hurt your side. If you find something, anything, even if your Ath Dept is completely out of the loop, you turn it in. Immdediately.

Largely, I agree with you. USC, up to and including the AD, really put their head in the sand and their attitude towards the investigation made the ultimate punishment worse than it ought to have been. But, I think it is almost entirely atmospherics.

From the standpoint of what more they could have done to actually cooperate, there isn't much -- those people whom the school could control did cooperate.

[JasonEvans]

First of all, Paul Dee is just being crucified in the media today.

Stewart Mandell in SI says (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/08/16/miami.hurricanes.allegations.reaction/)--


“Dee, Miami's AD during most of the period covering Shapiro's allegations, is retired and no longer under NCAA jurisdiction. Still, it seems only fair he should spend a day at USC's Heritage Hall wearing a sandwich board with the word "Hypocrite."

Dennis Dodd of CBS Sportsline (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/15446543/miamis-exad-new-poster-child-for-college-football-hypocrisy) says --


He's the guy who sat in judgment of USC when the program was burned to the ground, then scolded the school for letting it happen.

"High profile players demand high-profile compliance," Dee said 14 months ago in reference to Reggie Bush.

There have been few more hypocritical words spoken in the history of NCAA enforcement.


Michael Rosenbeg, also in SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/08/17/miami/index.html), says this just highlights how screwed up the whole system is --


The extremes of the Miami case should show you how preposterous this entire enterprise is. Former Miami athletic director Paul Dee is the chair of the NCAA's Committee on Infractions. He either didn't care, or didn't know, about some of the most blatant extra benefits in NCAA history. Heck, Shapiro, had official ties to the University of Miami athletic department and owned part of a sports agency. That alone should have set off the loudest alarms in South Florida. NCAA cases are about plausible deniability -- we didn't know, we could have known, the head coach didn't know, it was the assistant director of associate something-or-other's fault, kids these days are nutty, please be nice to us, etc. Miami has no plausible deniability here.


And finally, Mike Decourcy in The Sporting News (http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-08/um-violations/story/miami-mess-a-strict-failure-of-leadership)--


It always seemed incongruous, Dee’s presence as infractions committee chair. He was athletics director at Miami when more than 50 football players were alleged to be among the participants in a massive fraud of the federal Pell Grant system, when the Hurricanes later were banned from playing in a bowl game and stripped of dozens of scholarships. It’s possible that episode from the 1990s was a mere preamble to what some are describing as the most sweeping scandal in NCAA history.

“I know with absolute certainty,” Dee said, “that we controlled the things we could control.”

Which, apparently, was nothing.

One more note -- I know a lot of people are talking about the Death Penalty today but I just don't see that happening again unless a school is actually paying players itself or something like that. This stuff is really, really bad; but the NCAA does not want to kill another high profile program. Given the Pell scandal and Miami's history a scandal this serious and this widespread would seem to be a scenario where the Death Penalty could come into play. But I don't think it will happen.

Obviously, there is much investigating (ha!!) by the NCAA that needs to be done before anything is finalized but I suspect Miami will get something similar to USC -- a couple year bowl ban and a fair number of lost scholarships -- perhaps as many as 10 or 15 a year for several years. I could also see the NCAA pulling out a penalty it used to employ, banning Miami from appearing on TV for a year or two. That could lead the ACC to deduct a lot of Miami's annual revenue from the conference. Those penalties would severely hit the Miami program while not killing it. I suspect we will see something like that before we see Miami given the Death Penalty.

--Jason "Worth noting, Miami basketball is likely to get hammered a bit too -- no NCAA tourney and some lost schollies, I suspect" Evans

[JasonEvans]

One more good slam of Paul Dee, this time from Dan Wolken in The Daily (http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/08/17/081711-sports-wolken-miami-hurricane-football-1-3/) --


During the nine years he served on the NCAA’s Committee on Infractions, former University of Miami athletic director Paul Dee helped rule on more than 80 cases of major violations. As chairman, he hammered Southern Cal’s football program for the illegal benefits taken by Reggie Bush, remarking that “high-profile players demand high-profile compliance.” When his committee stripped the Memphis basketball team of its 2008 Final Four, Dee said the school had a “strict liability,” even though there was no evidence it knew about Derrick Rose’s phony SAT.

Those words now serve as a tapestry of humiliation on a scale never before been seen in college athletics. While Dee’s intellectually lazy, breathtakingly arrogant committee was screaming that athletic departments should have known about the wrongdoing under their noses, his athletic department was in the midst of a scandal that only the willfully ignorant could have missed.

-Jason "Ouch!" Evans

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Everyone is commenting that this person should have known and that person should have known and this other person did know... well, it is said that the simplest answer is often the right one. And I have a suspicion it is going to come out that everyone knew. It's possible that this is the simple explanation as to why this went on and on and on despite all the warning signs. Because the infiltration of the UM athletic system was so extensive and so deeply ingrained, no one had the will (or better yet, the nerve or moral compass) to step forward because it had become a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. And so collectively they all chose to ride it out. What a shame for my dear old canes...

[sagegrouse]

There's not mathematically enough room for every program to be as good as their historical best. Some programs, like Michigan football or Kentucky basketball (or, I think, Duke basketball), will survive anything in the long-term. Others, like St John's basketball, are temporary powerhouses. I've long believed Miami to be in the latter category. They're a private school without a particularly strong fan base and have two monster programs in their state (and one or two up-and-comers in UCF and USF).

Miami may not get the death penalty, but their days as one of the sport's powerhouses are over.

I know it seems strange, but St. John's is in the top ten in total wins by Division I schools -- #7 at 1,724 -- sagegrouse

[hudlow]

Bounties?

I'm all for the death penalty now.

There's no place for this in sports at any level.

Miami is as good a place as any to make an example and send out a very strong message.

hud

[hq2]

. She has been, by all reports, a crackerjack university president, both at Wisconsin and at Miami. At Wisconsin, after hearing from alumni in her trips around the state, she was responsible for reviving the football program and making it competitive in the Big Ten. But, we'll get to see her exercise all her leadership skills.



Yeah, I remember her as president of U.W. Madison while I was there. She was pretty good and highly regarded. I saw the football program revival
then too, but you never heard of any of these kinds of allegations about the Badgers. I don't think this is cause for her to lose her job. Still, knowing
of the reputation of Miami athletics, you would think she would have kept a better watch on things.

[formerdukeathlete]

Bounties?

I'm all for the death penalty now.

There's no place for this in sports at any level.

Miami is as good a place as any to make an example and send out a very strong message.

hud

I agree with you, absolutely.

FWIW and as a point of reference in the college game, overall, we have suffered what seemed to be intentional, take a guy out of the game, hits by Wake, VT and GT teams. Certainly not by bounties, hopefully.

VT's late hit on Thad Lewis his freshman year, which took him out of the game. A very late helmet hit to the open above Thad's facemask = concussion. Wake's late hit on Sean Renfree in the 2010 game, lead by the helmet, driving through to the chin up under the facemask. Kelby Brown's knee injury in the 2010 game was the result of a chop / cut block. Paul Johnson's Navy teams were big time cut blockers. We need better officiating, tighter rules all around. And, if Miami gets the death penalty, we will need a new member in the ACC.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I agree with you, absolutely.

FWIW and as a point of reference in the college game, overall, we have suffered what seemed to be intentional, take a guy out of the game, hits by Wake, VT and GT teams. Certainly not by bounties, hopefully.

VT's late hitS on Thad Lewis his freshman year, which took him out of the game. A very late helmet hit to the open above Thad's facemask = concussion. Wake's late hit on Sean Renfree in the 2010 game, lead by the helmet, driving through to the chin up under the facemask. Kelby Brown's knee injury in the 2010 game was the result of a chop / cut block. Paul Johnson's Navy teams were big time cut blockers. We need better officiating, tighter rules all around. And, if Miami gets the death penalty, we will need a new member in the ACC.
Just wanted to correct that for you.

[Jim3k]

I agree with you, absolutely.

... And, if Miami gets the death penalty, we will need a new member in the ACC.
Hello, Syracuse! Hello, Pitt! Hello, Vandy!

Come on down! We wanna talk!

[Newton_14]

Hello, Syracuse! Hello, Pitt! Hello, Vandy!

Come on down! We wanna talk!

Agree with one difference. I would replace Vandy with West Virginia, and I would add Notre Dame. I hate mega-conferences, hate them, hate them. But my fear is, if the ACC stands pat and reacts instead of proacts we will lose the conference altogether. That would be a sad day in the state of North Carolina.'

[devildeac]

I agree with you, absolutely.

FWIW and as a point of reference in the college game, overall, we have suffered what seemed to be intentional, take a guy out of the game, hits by Wake, VT and GT teams. Certainly not by bounties, hopefully.

VT's late hit on Thad Lewis his freshman year, which took him out of the game. A very late helmet hit to the open above Thad's facemask = concussion. Wake's late hit on Sean Renfree in the 2010 game, lead by the helmet, driving through to the chin up under the facemask. Kelby Brown's knee injury in the 2010 game was the result of a chop / cut block. Paul Johnson's Navy teams were big time cut blockers. We need better officiating, tighter rules all around. And, if Miami gets the death penalty, we will need a new member in the ACC.

You also omitted the multiple (at least 6 or 7) late hits on our players by the 'holes at Kenan in the 2009 game. Absolutely disgusting to have repeated unsportsmanlike penalties by the same "criminals" without regard to whistles or sideline boundaries. IIRC, there were a few others that could have been called but weren't. Still not sorry to see you gone, Butchy:mad:.

[Newton_14]

You also omitted the multiple (at least 6 or 7) late hits on our players by the 'holes at Kenan in the 2009 game. Absolutely disgusting to have repeated unsportsmanlike penalties by the same "criminals" without regard to whistles or sideline boundaries. IIRC, there were a few others that could have been called but weren't. Still not sorry to see you gone, Butchy:mad:.

Amen to that. Our receivers, especially, took a bunch of cheap shot/late hits that day. Can't remember if it was Varner or Vernon, but one of them got laid out on a crossing pattern, long after the pass sailed 10 feet above his head. He was in a helpless position and got creamed even though it was clear the DB saw the pass was not catchable.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Amen to that. Our receivers, especially, took a bunch of cheap shot/late hits that day. Can't remember if it was Varner or Vernon, but one of them got laid out on a crossing pattern, long after the pass sailed 10 feet above his head. He was in a helpless position and got creamed even though it was clear the DB saw the pass was not catchable.
The player who was beaten so badly he almost had to crawl off the field was Thad Lewis. The most frequent source of late hits and beating the QB was one tweeter named Marvin "Anchorman" Austin. There's a reason Austin's jersey is used for the last tackle by the Duke team.

[Verga3]

Everyone is commenting that this person should have known and that person should have known and this other person did know... well, it is said that the simplest answer is often the right one. And I have a suspicion it is going to come out that everyone knew. It's possible that this is the simple explanation as to why this went on and on and on despite all the warning signs. Because the infiltration of the UM athletic system was so extensive and so deeply ingrained, no one had the will (or better yet, the nerve or moral compass) to step forward because it had become a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation. And so collectively they all chose to ride it out. What a shame for my dear old canes...

Tough stuff for a great school. Donna Shalala is done. Lack of institutional control is an understatement here. Predict Shalala resigns and ACC jetisons Miami.

[gep]

Bounties?

I'm all for the death penalty now.

There's no place for this in sports at any level.

Miami is as good a place as any to make an example and send out a very strong message.

hud

This was my main thought after reading through the Yahoo Sports article... and I agree with all subsequent posts As you say, bounties anywhere and anytime is absolutely disgusting. While UofMiami didn't "authorize" this, a registered booster did, which may be sufficient for the death penalty. I don't think the "current" team or school should be totally penalized (since they weren't there at the time), but if it really was an institutional problem, it might just be "tough luck". I can't imagine what that $5,000 bounty would have meant if one of those players ended up in a major injury. That's NOT how the game should be played, no matter how much money is involved... especially in college.

[tieguy]

I can't imagine what that $5,000 bounty would have meant if one of those players ended up in a major injury. That's NOT how the game should be played, no matter how much money is involved... especially in college.

There are plenty of reasons to be displeased with the U (I'm very curious to hear from my Miami-grad father and step-mother when they get off the cruise) but the bounties seem to me not substantially worse than any other form of payout to the kids. Replace "$5,000 bounty" with "four year scholarship" and that's the situation these kids are already in, since playing football at that level, with boys and men of that size, is a constant threat of long-term brain damage. Any effect of the bounties on the health of those kids is, at worst, very marginal. They're already doing it to themselves and no one has to pay them for it. In fact, no one *can* pay them for it, which is a bigger ongoing criminal (antitrust, minimum-wage violating) issue than anything these kids did.

~tieguy

[formerdukeathlete]

[I]There are plenty of reasons to be displeased with the U (I'm very curious to hear from my Miami-grad father and step-mother when they get off the cruise) but the bounties seem to me not substantially worse than any other form of payout to the kids. Replace "$5,000 bounty" with "four year scholarship" and that's the situation these kids are already in, since playing football at that level, with boys and men of that size, is a constant threat of long-term brain damage. Any effect of the bounties on the health of those kids is, at worst, very marginal. They're already doing it to themselves and no one has to pay them for it. In fact, no one *can* pay them for it, which is a bigger ongoing criminal (antitrust, minimum-wage violating) issue than anything these kids did.

~tieguy

Going onto the Football field, players assume risks of injury, sure. But, they do not anticipate cheap shots designed to take them out of the game or even end their playing careers. In last year's Wake game, the late hit, leading with the helmet, on Renfree's chin looked coached. If there were evidence that Wake coaches sought to take Renfree out of the game in this fashion, that they had watched film of Renfree's position in the pocket after releasing the ball , etc., then to me that is just about as bad as if Miami coaches had been aware that bounties were being offered to be paid in particular games.

A 4 year scholarship at Duke can mean 9 semesters full ride plus summer school. Have to value that at north of $250k. And, if a player is injured while on the team and cant play anymore they receive a medical hardship and continue on full scholarship at Duke while off the team.

[DukieInKansas]

I can't imagine what that $5,000 bounty would have meant if one of those players ended up in a major injury. That's NOT how the game should be played, no matter how much money is involved... especially in college.

There are plenty of reasons to be displeased with the U (I'm very curious to hear from my Miami-grad father and step-mother when they get off the cruise) but the bounties seem to me not substantially worse than any other form of payout to the kids. Replace "$5,000 bounty" with "four year scholarship" and that's the situation these kids are already in, since playing football at that level, with boys and men of that size, is a constant threat of long-term brain damage. Any effect of the bounties on the health of those kids is, at worst, very marginal. They're already doing it to themselves and no one has to pay them for it. In fact, no one *can* pay them for it, which is a bigger ongoing criminal (antitrust, minimum-wage violating) issue than anything these kids did.

~tieguy

There is a VERY big difference between the risk of serious injury from the normal play of the game and an injury caused through an intentional act to hurt, especially if the act is done in order to get a monetary award. The thought that someone would put a bounty on a player is disgusting, in my opinion.

[Stray Gator]

There are plenty of reasons to be displeased with the U (I'm very curious to hear from my Miami-grad father and step-mother when they get off the cruise) but the bounties seem to me not substantially worse than any other form of payout to the kids. ...

~tieguy

I strenuously disagree. There have been rumors swirling around for years that UM players were being paid by boosters specified "bonuses" for certain on-field achievements--in fact, there was alleged to be a prescribed "schedule" of monetary rewards for such things as intercepting a pass, scoring a touchdown, sacking the quarterback, etc. In my opinion, that kind of incentive to promote winning through positive contributions to the team effort is materially different, and far less nefarious, than paying a "bounty" for injuring an opposing player. In fact, with all due respect to my friend tieguy, I find it difficult to see how the two can reasonably be equated. To reward a student-athlete for achieving victory based on their own superior effort is still a violation of the rules, but I believe it is certainly a less reprehensible practice than offering them a reward for stealing victory by eliminating the competition.

[roywhite]

I strenuously disagree. There have been rumors swirling around for years that UM players were being paid by boosters specified "bonuses" for certain on-field achievements--in fact, there was alleged to be a prescribed "schedule" of monetary rewards for such things as intercepting a pass, scoring a touchdown, sacking the quarterback, etc. In my opinion, that kind of incentive to promote winning through positive contributions to the team effort is materially different, and far less nefarious, than paying a "bounty" for injuring an opposing player. In fact, with all due respect to my friend tieguy, I find it difficult to see how the two can reasonably be equated. To reward a student-athlete for achieving victory based on their own superior effort is still a violation of the rules, but I believe it is certainly a less reprehensible practice than offering them a reward for stealing victory by eliminating the competition.


In many places, such efforts are rewarded with a decal on the helmet.

At the "U", cash was the preferred reward.

[formerdukeathlete]

I strenuously disagree. There have been rumors swirling around for years that UM players were being paid by boosters specified "bonuses" for certain on-field achievements--in fact, there was alleged to be a prescribed "schedule" of monetary rewards for such things as intercepting a pass, scoring a touchdown, sacking the quarterback, etc. In my opinion, that kind of incentive to promote winning through positive contributions to the team effort is materially different, and far less nefarious, than paying a "bounty" for injuring an opposing player. In fact, with all due respect to my friend tieguy, I find it difficult to see how the two can reasonably be equated. To reward a student-athlete for achieving victory based on their own superior effort is still a violation of the rules, but I believe it is certainly a less reprehensible practice than offering them a reward for stealing victory by eliminating the competition.

If coaches were aware of this and came forward, say Coker, or Shannon of such goings on in the last 4 years, or if there were other very credible evidence that coaches were aware of such bonuses, and did not object (in effect had condoned the practice), then I think Miami may lose its football team for a year or more.

[wilko]

Beginning to sound more and more like the best tonic for the ACC is to have Duke Football be a contender this year. The league needs SOMETHING on the order of a positive success story.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I LOVE this quote from Coach Cut, when asked about Miami's (and other's) issues.

"If you're not interested in discipline. If you don't want a coach that's gonna know what you're driving, who you're hanging around. If you're not interested in being the most conditioned athlete.....absolutely don't come to Duke. That may be a crazy way to recruit but I am not dealing with prima donnas. I've done this almost 40 years and coached some of the best that ever played the game and I'm not going to start dealing with prima donnas now."

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10015386/

[oldnavy]

I LOVE this quote from Coach Cut, when asked about Miami's (and other's) issues.

"If you're not interested in discipline. If you don't want a coach that's gonna know what you're driving, who you're hanging around. If you're not interested in being the most conditioned athlete.....absolutely don't come to Duke. That may be a crazy way to recruit but I am not dealing with prima donnas. I've done this almost 40 years and coached some of the best that ever played the game and I'm not going to start dealing with prima donnas now."

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10015386/

NOW THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!! As the head man, he personally is going to know what kind of car you are driving and who you hang with. For all those Butch Davis apologist's out there, this is how you keep from getting 9 major NCAA violations. You become INVOLVED with the kids, just like your own children. You know where they are, who they are with, and how they pay for what they buy. It is hard work, but it is necessary to be a good leader.

[A-Tex Devil]

NOW THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!! As the head man, he personally is going to know what kind of car you are driving and who you hang with. For all those Butch Davis apologist's out there, this is how you keep from getting 9 major NCAA violations. You become INVOLVED with the kids, just like your own children. You know where they are, who they are with, and how they pay for what they buy. It is hard work, but it is necessary to be a good leader.

This. Mack Brown and the Texas Ath Dept have a copy of each player's car title/lease and apartment lease on file. If they are seen driving another car around campus, they have to explain themselves. If they get arrested (e.g. Christian Scott recently), they are suspended until facts come out, because generally (but not always), even if you aren't doing anything illegal, putting yourself in a position to even be arrested in itself can be considered conduct detrimental to the team. Appearance of impropriety and all..

No athletic department can prevent the $500 handshakes from boosters and things of that nature, but it is extremely easy to create an atmosphere of strict compliance in your program. The fact that Miami coaches were at some of these "events" with Shapiro and other players is telling with respect to Miami's atmosphere of compliance.

[SoCalDukeFan]

First of all, Paul Dee is just being crucified in the media today.

Stewart Mandell in SI says (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/08/16/miami.hurricanes.allegations.reaction/)--



Dennis Dodd of CBS Sportsline (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/15446543/miamis-exad-new-poster-child-for-college-football-hypocrisy) says --



Michael Rosenbeg, also in SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/michael_rosenberg/08/17/miami/index.html), says this just highlights how screwed up the whole system is --



And finally, Mike Decourcy in The Sporting News (http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-08/um-violations/story/miami-mess-a-strict-failure-of-leadership)--



One more note -- I know a lot of people are talking about the Death Penalty today but I just don't see that happening again unless a school is actually paying players itself or something like that. This stuff is really, really bad; but the NCAA does not want to kill another high profile program. Given the Pell scandal and Miami's history a scandal this serious and this widespread would seem to be a scenario where the Death Penalty could come into play. But I don't think it will happen.

Obviously, there is much investigating (ha!!) by the NCAA that needs to be done before anything is finalized but I suspect Miami will get something similar to USC -- a couple year bowl ban and a fair number of lost scholarships -- perhaps as many as 10 or 15 a year for several years. I could also see the NCAA pulling out a penalty it used to employ, banning Miami from appearing on TV for a year or two. That could lead the ACC to deduct a lot of Miami's annual revenue from the conference. Those penalties would severely hit the Miami program while not killing it. I suspect we will see something like that before we see Miami given the Death Penalty.

--Jason "Worth noting, Miami basketball is likely to get hammered a bit too -- no NCAA tourney and some lost schollies, I suspect" Evans

Beyond Dee this just shows how totally screwed up the NCAA is. Ohio State has multiple players getting a benefit and they get to play in their bowl game. Cam Newton's father shopped him around and no penalty. The NCAA Infractions Committee headed by Paul Dee decides the USC should get hammered because one player and his family received major benefits. Why would any group put the Miami AD as the head of the Infractions Committee in the first place? Wasn't Miami regularly in trouble.

If you can handle the profanity and want to see what USC fans really think of Paul Dee and the NCAA go here (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.football.college/browse_thread/thread/f0b23634f6662170/c9e9931dfa30166e?show_docid=c9e9931dfa30166e).

Miami should get the death penalty. President should go. The other problem is that college Presidents think that they need to be concerned that all but about 100 of their students are fine representatives of the school academically and culturally and the football coach can worry about the other 100.

SoCal

[TexHawk]

Obviously, there is much investigating (ha!!) by the NCAA that needs to be done before anything is finalized but I suspect Miami will get something similar to USC -- a couple year bowl ban and a fair number of lost scholarships -- perhaps as many as 10 or 15 a year for several years. I could also see the NCAA pulling out a penalty it used to employ, banning Miami from appearing on TV for a year or two. That could lead the ACC to deduct a lot of Miami's annual revenue from the conference. Those penalties would severely hit the Miami program while not killing it. I suspect we will see something like that before we see Miami given the Death Penalty.

--Jason "Worth noting, Miami basketball is likely to get hammered a bit too -- no NCAA tourney and some lost schollies, I suspect" Evans

Look, I don't think they'll get the death penalty either. Too much damage to the conference. But let's be honest, Miami is much closer to SMU on the spectrum than USC was. USC got caught paying two guys (on some less-than-concrete evidence). There is documented evidence with over 70 players at Miami, and that's just the ones we know about.

[oldnavy]

May be time to change the title of the thread to Miami IS in big trouble.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Look, I don't think they'll get the death penalty either. Too much damage to the conference. But let's be honest, Miami is much closer to SMU on the spectrum than USC was. USC got caught paying two guys (on some less-than-concrete evidence). There is documented evidence with over 70 players at Miami, and that's just the ones we know about.

USC as accused of giving $1000 to a representative of OJ Mayo.

There was no accusation that USC gave anyone anything for football. A would be sports agent gave Reggie Bush and his family money in the expectation that he would represent Bush when he turned pro. No accusation of payments from any booster to any football player to attend USC or reward for performance when at USC. USC was guilty of a lack of oversight and there is an accusation that an assistant coach was aware of the Bush situation. For this Paul Dee and the NCAA hammered USC.

In my opinion when compared to USC, the Miami accusations are significantly worse. In relation to the punishment given USC, the only punishment appropriate for Miami would be the death penalty.

SoCal

[SoCalDukeFan]

I strenuously disagree. There have been rumors swirling around for years that UM players were being paid by boosters specified "bonuses" for certain on-field achievements--in fact, there was alleged to be a prescribed "schedule" of monetary rewards for such things as intercepting a pass, scoring a touchdown, sacking the quarterback, etc. In my opinion, that kind of incentive to promote winning through positive contributions to the team effort is materially different, and far less nefarious, than paying a "bounty" for injuring an opposing player. In fact, with all due respect to my friend tieguy, I find it difficult to see how the two can reasonably be equated. To reward a student-athlete for achieving victory based on their own superior effort is still a violation of the rules, but I believe it is certainly a less reprehensible practice than offering them a reward for stealing victory by eliminating the competition.

that Stray (and I am sure many many others) knew of these rumors but the NCAA still put the Miami AD as head of the Enforcement Committee.

SoCal

[throatybeard]

Legally, does the ACC have the ability to kick Miami out of the conference? Obviously you'd want to line up a replacement behind the scenes first.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Interesting article on Randy Shannon and how hard it may be for a coach to keep control of everything, even when they know there is trouble brewing.


Sources have told CaneSport that shortly after he was named to replace Larry Coker in 2007 that Shannon threatened his coaching staff with firings if they ever dealt with Shapiro and warned his players about Shapiro multiple times in team meetings during his four-year coaching tenure.


Shapiro would constantly call anybody in the athletic department that would listen and launch into blistering, profanity-laced and racially-charged tirades at the perceived lack of respect he was being shown by the head coach.

http://miami.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1253198

[Klemnop]

Not arguing relative weight -- we agree on that. My point was that there is a recent splash of ACC teams in the news for violations. Stories about all of those schools have been in the papers the last six months.

And you are correct that, prior to UNC, FSU's punishment was the largest in recent years. We need to go back to Clemson in the 1980's to get something as large, IIRC.

Every school (and I mean EVERY school) runs into secondary violations. Clemson publicly releases it's self-reported secondary violations each semester. It is a part of their compliance portfolio which should be applauded and not used to make a mountain out of nothing.

Clemson suffered its punishment in the 80's...with an EXTRA year tacked on by the ACC in addition to what the NCAA handed down. Danny Ford was shortly thereafter shown the door for continuing to walk too close to the line and has been followed in succession by absolute rule followers. I'd challenge you to find a football program that has run more clean that Clemson in the last 20 years.

Clemson has a history. As a Clemson Man I can't hide from that. But your inclusion of Clemson in this same list with Miami, UNC and even GaTech is an egregious error...and deserves your direct retraction - and not some half-assed defense.

Klem

[CameronBornAndBred]

Every school (and I mean EVERY school) runs into secondary violations. Clemson publicly releases it's self-reported secondary violations each semester. It is a part of their compliance portfolio which should be applauded and not used to make a mountain out of nothing.

Clemson suffered its punishment in the 80's...with an EXTRA year tacked on by the ACC in addition to what the NCAA handed down. Danny Ford was shortly thereafter shown the door for continuing to walk too close to the line and has been followed in succession by absolute rule followers. I'd challenge you to find a football program that has run more clean that Clemson in the last 20 years.

Clemson has a history. As a Clemson Man I can't hide from that. But your inclusion of Clemson in this same list with Miami, UNC and even GaTech is an egregious error...and deserves your direct retraction - and not some half-assed defense.

Klem
I don't think PK's post was opionated against Clemson, he was just pointing out a historical fact.

[Klemnop]

I don't think PK's post was opionated against Clemson, he was just pointing out a historical fact.

No, he was using a google search on NCCA violations in the last six months to lump Clemson in with Miami, UNC and GaTech - as representative of wide-spread problems at ACC schools. His inclusion of Clemson was in no way related to issues from 20+ years ago, per his own commentary that I included in my response.

Clemson's self-reported secondary voilations were actually less newsworthy than K's "unintentional" contact with a basketball prospect at an AAU tournament last month. So, I would also accept OldPhiKap amending his original post to include all ACC schools which have had any reported secondary violations in the last six months (therby including at least Duke and probably ALL other ACC schools) or a retraction of Clemson from the list.

I'd be happy to enumarate the 12 violations included in the link if we'd like to debate the merit of including Clemson in the same list with UNC and Miami. And Tech's infraction, while more isolated, actually had a direct impact on Clemson as Bey-Bey Thomas should have been ineligible for the ACC Championship Game where Tech beat Clemson on the final drive depriving Clemson of it's first ACC Championship since The Ford Years and the accompanying BCS appearance.

[devildeac]

I LOVE this quote from Coach Cut, when asked about Miami's (and other's) issues.

"If you're not interested in discipline. If you don't want a coach that's gonna know what you're driving, who you're hanging around. If you're not interested in being the most conditioned athlete.....absolutely don't come to Duke. That may be a crazy way to recruit but I am not dealing with prima donnas. I've done this almost 40 years and coached some of the best that ever played the game and I'm not going to start dealing with prima donnas now."

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/duke/story/10015386/


NOW THAT'S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!! As the head man, he personally is going to know what kind of car you are driving and who you hang with. For all those Butch Davis apologist's out there, this is how you keep from getting 9 major NCAA violations. You become INVOLVED with the kids, just like your own children. You know where they are, who they are with, and how they pay for what they buy. It is hard work, but it is necessary to be a good leader.

I'll never forget the first time I heard Cut speak. His four major points of emphasis were the 4Fs as he called them. Faith, Family, Fellowship and Football. He explained each one in a bit of detail and stressed that you let many folks down if you do not adhere to supporting all four. (I also joked there might be a fifth F and that might come during "teaching" moments after major mistakes on/off the field:o.)

[BD80]

I'll never forget the first time I heard Cut speak. His four major points of emphasis were the 4Fs as he called them. Faith, Family, Fellowship and Football. He explained each one in a bit of detail and stressed that you let many folks down if you do not adhere to supporting all four. (I also joked there might be a fifth F and that might come during "teaching" moments after major mistakes on/off the field:o.)

The 4 Fs? Doesn't that issue belong in the Carolina football scandal thread? I am getting this all confused.

Carolina fans must LOVE Miami right now for sopping up all of the bright lights and headlines: "Hey, maybe we did cheat, but we weren't NEARLY as bad as Miami!"

[devildeac]

The 4 Fs? Doesn't that issue belong in the Carolina football scandal thread? I am getting this all confused.

Carolina fans must LOVE Miami right now for sopping up all of the bright lights and headlines: "Hey, maybe we did cheat, but we weren't NEARLY as bad as Miami!"

No, Cut was pretty serious on his summer tour the first year. I am also having trouble coming up with 4Fs for unc. I can see falsification/falsehoods, fringe(illegal) benefits and a failing grade or two but can't twist agents, tutors, lack of knowledge or anything else into an F without running afoul of the board filters:o.

[sagegrouse]

The 4 Fs? Doesn't that issue belong in the Carolina football scandal thread? I am getting this all confused.

Carolina fans must LOVE Miami right now for sopping up all of the bright lights and headlines: "Hey, maybe we did cheat, but we weren't NEARLY as bad as Miami!"

No, for Carolina football, it's the FOUR P's: Parties (road trips), Payments, Parking Tickets, and Plagiarism.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

Every school (and I mean EVERY school) runs into secondary violations. Clemson publicly releases it's self-reported secondary violations each semester. It is a part of their compliance portfolio which should be applauded and not used to make a mountain out of nothing.

Clemson suffered its punishment in the 80's...with an EXTRA year tacked on by the ACC in addition to what the NCAA handed down. Danny Ford was shortly thereafter shown the door for continuing to walk too close to the line and has been followed in succession by absolute rule followers. I'd challenge you to find a football program that has run more clean that Clemson in the last 20 years.

Clemson has a history. As a Clemson Man I can't hide from that. But your inclusion of Clemson in this same list with Miami, UNC and even GaTech is an egregious error...and deserves your direct retraction - and not some half-assed defense.

Klem

Klem, as I said to Jim Sumner -- I am NOT equating Clemson's recent problem with any of those other incidents. I was merely pointing out that the ACC has been in the news a lot recently about violations.

Sorry if I offended -- not my intent. -- OPK



Edit to add re-post of my prior response to Jim (see post 12 above):

"Not arguing relative weight -- we agree on that. My point was that there is a recent splash of ACC teams in the news for violations. Stories about all of those schools have been in the papers the last six months.

"And you are correct that, prior to UNC, FSU's punishment was the largest in recent years. We need to go back to Clemson in the 1980's to get something as large, IIRC. "

I think that is the same thing you are saying. And, yes, Clemson has run exceptional programs -- not just football, but all sports -- since then.

[hurleyfor3]

No, Cut was pretty serious on his summer tour the first year. I am also having trouble coming up with 4Fs for unc. I can see falsification/falsehoods, fringe(illegal) benefits and a failing grade or two but can't twist agents, tutors, lack of knowledge or anything else into an F without running afoul of the board filters:o.

Free parking?

[devildeac]

Free parking?

That'll work nicely. Thanks!

But, as Ozzie reminded me via PM, there are really 9Fs.:D

2003

[throatybeard]

At Mizzou, where a bunch of the fans already hate Alden, the AD, they're experiencing even stronger buyer's remorse with Haith than they were when they hired him. And he wasn't a popular hire.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_65adcced-9d84-5902-b6a5-22eb7a88b101.html

[Klemnop]

Klem, as I said to Jim Sumner -- I am NOT equating Clemson's recent problem with any of those other incidents. I was merely pointing out that the ACC has been in the news a lot recently about violations.

Sorry if I offended -- not my intent. -- OPK



Edit to add re-post of my prior response to Jim (see post 12 above):

"Not arguing relative weight -- we agree on that. My point was that there is a recent splash of ACC teams in the news for violations. Stories about all of those schools have been in the papers the last six months.

"And you are correct that, prior to UNC, FSU's punishment was the largest in recent years. We need to go back to Clemson in the 1980's to get something as large, IIRC. "

I think that is the same thing you are saying. And, yes, Clemson has run exceptional programs -- not just football, but all sports -- since then.

I appreciate the clarification although I'd like to add a bit of weight to my original objection. Following is an article from July 11, 2011 detailing Maryland's self-reported football violations: http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/07/02/11/Maryland-self-reports-secondary-violatio/landing_acc.html?blockID=536415

If you're thinking to yourself that 12 (Clemson) > 2 (UMd) - that's because the Clemson report is not limited to football but is inclusive of all sports where there was any self-reported violation.

If I were willing to dig around any further I would find the same reports for all 12 ACC institutions. Which was my original objection to lumping Clemson in with UM, UNC and GaTech.

As a side note on a separate topic, I could have told you that UNC was headed for a heap of trouble on a January night back in 2007. The Clemson football staff had just secured a verbal comittment from a nationally rated WR - a guy who would have been a headliner in the class. This was approximately 10 days before National Signing Day. Just a couple of days later the same player de-committed from Clemson and announced his intention to sign with UNC. The prospective student-athlete had gone up for review with the Clemson AARC (Athletic Academic Review Committee.) The AARC had denied admission despite the fact that, at the time, he met all eligibility requirements of both the NCAA and the ACC (as evidenced by his committment to the Heels.)

The Clemson message boards went into a full-scale meltdown at the preposterous notion that a student athlete was good enough for UNC standards but not good enough for Clemson. The very idea that a football player would be held to a higher standard than the minimum required by the NCAA and ACC surely put Clemson at a competitive disadvantage - even just within the league, let alone in competition with the Big, Bad SEC.

The student athlete: 2011 pre-season All-ACC WR Dwight Jones

To Jones' credit he spent an interim year at prep school, got his grades in order and got full admission to UNC - where, by all accounts, he has stayed clear of the academic scandal and proven to be a success story in giving a chance to kid who has a marginal academic background. I harbour no ill will toward Jones, Jones' accomplishments or UNC in this case.

But when the day came that Clemson was committed enough to the academic process to say, "No Thanks" - while UNC was willing to take the chance....

[Papa John]

Klem, as I said to Jim Sumner -- I am NOT equating Clemson's recent problem with any of those other incidents. I was merely pointing out that the ACC has been in the news a lot recently about violations.

I suppose we should include our beloved university in that list as well, since we were also in the news recently about a potential secondary recruiting violation.

[77devil]

Clemson's self-reported secondary voilations[sic] were actually less newsworthy than K's "unintentional" contact with a basketball prospect at an AAU tournament last month.

Your statement is inaccurate. Coach K's contact was intentional and, more importantly, it is not at all certain that it was a violation. While the Duke story was indeed more publicized(not newsworthy), that was a media manifestation rather than the a reflection of the comparative substance of the different events.

[Klemnop]

Your statement is inaccurate. Coach K's contact was intentional and, more importantly, it is not at all certain that it was a violation. While the Duke story was indeed more publicized(not newsworthy), that was a media manifestation rather than the (sic) a reflection of the comparative substance of the different events.

One of the 12 secondary violations reported by Clemson was a result of a football coach receiving a request from a PSA to shadow the coach as part of a class requirement. During the day of shadowing the coach took the PSA to the Compliance office to show that interaction with Compliance was a big part of a coach's responsibility. The Compliance office became aware of the violation as a result of the coach's intentional behavior.

Clemson was never recruiting the PSA (no scholarship offer, etc.) and the self-imposed punishment was to cease contact with the PSA. The coach simply made a mistake in his interpretation/understanding of the rules of contact. In the Grand Scheme Of Things it was a kind gesture on the part of the coach to make himself accessible to a kid who asked for a favor.

If there is a difference in "the comparative substance of the different events" I'd surely like to know it.

The original point was to ask that OPK acknowledge that Clemson's inclusion in the list with Miami, UNC and GaTech was off base. (Way off base, IMO). Or, alternately, if the threshold for inclusion in the list was simply the reporting of any violations, including secondary violations, then to make the list comprehensive of all ACC schools which met the threshold - not only Clemson. I further provided a link to an article detailing Maryland's self-reported secondary violations within the same six month period...the result of less than one minute of Google effort. I'm sure that 10 more minutes of Google effort would reveal that each ACC institution self-reports secondary violations every semester.

Attempting to parse out the degree of error between various secondary violations simply shows a lack of willingness to accept that Duke makes the same kind of mistakes that everyone else makes. IMO.

Klem

[OldPhiKap]

One of the 12 secondary violations reported by Clemson was a result of a football coach receiving a request from a PSA to shadow the coach as part of a class requirement. During the day of shadowing the coach took the PSA to the Compliance office to show that interaction with Compliance was a big part of a coach's responsibility. The Compliance office became aware of the violation as a result of the coach's intentional behavior.

Clemson was never recruiting the PSA (no scholarship offer, etc.) and the self-imposed punishment was to cease contact with the PSA. The coach simply made a mistake in his interpretation/understanding of the rules of contact. In the Grand Scheme Of Things it was a kind gesture on the part of the coach to make himself accessible to a kid who asked for a favor.

If there is a difference in "the comparative substance of the different events" I'd surely like to know it.

The original point was to ask that OPK acknowledge that Clemson's inclusion in the list with Miami, UNC and GaTech was off base. (Way off base, IMO). Or, alternately, if the threshold for inclusion in the list was simply the reporting of any violations, including secondary violations, then to make the list comprehensive of all ACC schools which met the threshold - not only Clemson. I further provided a link to an article detailing Maryland's self-reported secondary violations within the same six month period...the result of less than one minute of Google effort. I'm sure that 10 more minutes of Google effort would reveal that each ACC institution self-reports secondary violations every semester.

Attempting to parse out the degree of error between various secondary violations simply shows a lack of willingness to accept that Duke makes the same kind of mistakes that everyone else makes. IMO.

Klem

Duke certainly makes mistakes, as do all institutions. I am not sure that the flap over K is one or not, we shall see.

It is certainly possible to make a more complete list than that which I posted. Mine was off the top of my head, based on the media I get here in Georgia-lina (which includes Clemson news, but none really on MD, UVa, VT, BC, etc).

[Olympic Fan]

I ran across an interesting contrary story about the Yahoo expose of Miami and the rush to judgment by the national media:

http://allabouttheu.wordpress.com/2011/08/18/renegade-reporter-spells-out-litany-of-accusations-while-often-failing-to-substantiate-his-claims/

Basically, the author argues that Charles Robinson has taken a handful of legitimate and proveable violations by Shapiro and mixed them in with dozens of unsubstantiated (and in some cases clearly false) claims. Not saying I believe his thesis, but makes a good case that some of the "evidence" presented in Yahoo is fraudulent -- for instance, much of the evidence to support Shapiro's claims are for contacts that occurred after the players left the U and were in the NFL (that especially applies to some of the damning photographs of the boat party).

He argues that instead of 72 players involved in hundreds of violations, there is solid evidence against 12 players -- and almost all of them were more than five years ago. Almost nothing since Randy Shannon became head coach. The rest he attributes to Shapiro's vindictive vow to "get" Miami for not standing by him when he was convicted of running a Ponzi scheme.

Now, I'm not sure I buy his defense of Miami, but I think it should serve as warning to at least wait before the evidence before making pronoucements about the severity of the situation. Is Miami's scandal worse than North Carolina's, where we had the associate head coach acting as an agent's representative and funnelling money to players, PLUS an academic prong that saw the head coaches' private tutor helping players cheat and funneling money to them? (all proven) If you mix in the unproven allegations at UNC -- the players driving cars provided by a convicted drug money launderer, the under-the-table payments to Marvin Austin's old high school coach, the pre-NCAA intrerview phone calls between John Blake and the players about to be interviewed (which sure looks like the kind of coaching that got Georgia Tech in trouble), the photos of Tyler Hansbrough and members of the basketball team partying on a booster's yacht, the UNC's refusal to investigate the clearly corrupt honor court and the African-American studies department, the fact that Butch Davis' personal policeman covered up at least one known DWI accident .... it makes the mix of Miami fact and fiction pale by comparison.

PS I understand that the story I linked comes from a Miami website ... but in the new world of journalism, I'm not going to turn my nose up at that kind of research. Indeed, the NC State Pack Pride website has done more successful investigative reporting on the UNC scandal than all the state's legitimate media put together.

[Udaman]

If the NCAA is ever going to issue the death penalty again, this should be the time they do so. Miami is a repeat offender....they have been put on probation before. This was an official booster, and dozens and dozens of people knew what was going on (including the coaches, AD and president). This violated just about every rule you can imagine.

Miami deserves to have the death penalty. Will it happen? I seriously doubt it.

[SoCalDukeFan]

If the NCAA is ever going to issue the death penalty again, this should be the time they do so. Miami is a repeat offender....they have been put on probation before. This was an official booster, and dozens and dozens of people knew what was going on (including the coaches, AD and president). This violated just about every rule you can imagine.

Miami deserves to have the death penalty. Will it happen? I seriously doubt it.

Look this appears to be much much worse than USC so how can Miami be punished much much more severely without the death penalty?

SoCal

[OldPhiKap]

Look this appears to be much much worse than USC so how can Miami be punished much much more severely without the death penalty?

SoCal

Agreed. If this pans out as reported (always a question) it is harder to think of a more out-of-control situation. If the facts alleged do not constitute "lack of institutional control," I don't know what would.

I am still suspicious of the source, although it seems that there is a bunch of corroborative smoke.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Agreed. If this pans out as reported (always a question) it is harder to think of a more out-of-control situation. If the facts alleged do not constitute "lack of institutional control," I don't know what would.

I am still suspicious of the source, although it seems that there is a bunch of corroborative smoke.


Even Shapiro's attorney, Maria Elena Perez -- a University of Miami graduate who proudly displays her diploma in her office -- said she agrees with Eichorst that the Hurricanes will be "left standing" when this process ends.
"I think there will be a football program after this," Perez said. "If they shut down this football program, too many people will lose too much money."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6873380/ncaa-told-miami-look-four-years

So the thought here is that in the process of buying off players and recruits to become a big time money earning program, they've succeeded so well that they are too rich to suffer the ultimate consequences.

[hudlow]

Too big to fail...

It worked for the banks.

[OldPhiKap]

Looks like the NCAA may be on the way to DEFCON 1:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6873380/ncaa-told-miami-look-four-years

[JasonEvans]

He argues that instead of 72 players involved in hundreds of violations, there is solid evidence against 12 players -- and almost all of them were more than five years ago. Almost nothing since Randy Shannon became head coach. The rest he attributes to Shapiro's vindictive vow to "get" Miami for not standing by him when he was convicted of running a Ponzi scheme.


As always, Oly Fan speaks wise words. I have little doubt that Shaprio is exaggerating some of this stuff and that he is perfectly willing to lie through his teeth to get revenge. This is a guy who defrauded folks out of millions of dollars.

As Duke fans, we especially should be concerned with a rush to judgement in cases like this. Let the fact be revealed and the lie exposed -- then, and only then, should we pronounce opinions on punishment.

--Jason "no matter what happens, it has been a very bad 12 months for ACC football" Evans

[SoCalDukeFan]

As always, Oly Fan speaks wise words. I have little doubt that Shaprio is exaggerating some of this stuff and that he is perfectly willing to lie through his teeth to get revenge. This is a guy who defrauded folks out of millions of dollars.

As Duke fans, we especially should be concerned with a rush to judgement in cases like this. Let the fact be revealed and the lie exposed -- then, and only then, should we pronounce opinions on punishment.

--Jason "no matter what happens, it has been a very bad 12 months for ACC football" Evans

I agree that Shapiro is probably exaggerating some stuff but for some of the claims there appears to be some evidence. Others were reported confirmed by multiple former players, ie see this on the bounties - http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports-sentinel-sports-now/2011/08/17/miami-booster-claims-he-put-bounties-on-tim-tebow-and-chris-rix/

This is nothing like the Duke lacrosse case.

SoCal

[hudlow]

Exactly, I doubt the NCAA would be telling Miami to be prepared to be looked upon as "willful violators" unless they had good reason beyond what would be considered exaggeration.

[Olympic Fan]

If the NCAA is ever going to issue the death penalty again, this should be the time they do so. Miami is a repeat offender....they have been put on probation before. This was an official booster, and dozens and dozens of people knew what was going on (including the coaches, AD and president). This violated just about every rule you can imagine.

Miami deserves to have the death penalty. Will it happen? I seriously doubt it.

Even if everything Shapiro says is true (which I'm not willing to concede), you really have the stretch the NCAA rules to argue for the death penalty. The death penalty is only in play for repeat violators, defined as: a school is a repeat violator if a second major violation occurs within five years of the start date of the penalty from the first case.

Miami's previous football penalty started in 1996 ... the earliest of the Shapiro allegations is 2002. So it would seem that under NCAA rules, the death penalty is not in play.

However, there is a loophole that would technically allow the death penalty. The Miami baseball was put on probation for a year in 2003 for violations that occurred in 1998-99. They were more technical in nature and totally unrelated to the current charges ... but under the rules, the NCAA could use the baseball penalty to invoke the death penalty.

Does Miami deserve the death penalty? If the great majority of Shapiro's charges do turn out to be true ... then, yes, I'd love to see the 'Canes slammed. But if it turns out that he's exaggerated a dozen or so illegal gifts into this nucleus holocost ... no. I repeat what I said before ... let's wait and see what turns out to be true and what turns out to be false before we start talking about what kind of penalties the 'Canes deserve.

And just to defend Jason -- I don't think he was trying to suggest that this was similar to the Duke lacrosse case, where no crime was actually committed, but to point out that in that case, a rush to judgement by the media (which is rushing again in another stampede) made a bad sitution much worse. The NCAA has been on this case for awhile. Let''s wait and see what really happened.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Even if everything Shapiro says is true (which I'm not willing to concede), you really have the stretch the NCAA rules to argue for the death penalty. The death penalty is only in play for repeat violators, defined as: a school is a repeat violator if a second major violation occurs within five years of the start date of the penalty from the first case.

Miami's previous football penalty started in 1996 ... the earliest of the Shapiro allegations is 2002. So it would seem that under NCAA rules, the death penalty is not in play.

However, there is a loophole that would technically allow the death penalty. The Miami baseball was put on probation for a year in 2003 for violations that occurred in 1998-99. They were more technical in nature and totally unrelated to the current charges ... but under the rules, the NCAA could use the baseball penalty to invoke the death penalty.

Does Miami deserve the death penalty? If the great majority of Shapiro's charges do turn out to be true ... then, yes, I'd love to see the 'Canes slammed. But if it turns out that he's exaggerated a dozen or so illegal gifts into this nucleus holocost ... no. I repeat what I said before ... let's wait and see what turns out to be true and what turns out to be false before we start talking about what kind of penalties the 'Canes deserve.

And just to defend Jason -- I don't think he was trying to suggest that this was similar to the Duke lacrosse case, where no crime was actually committed, but to point out that in that case, a rush to judgement by the media (which is rushing again in another stampede) made a bad sitution much worse. The NCAA has been on this case for awhile. Let''s wait and see what really happened.

Half of what Shapiro says is true. 36 violations. Players paid to injure other players part of it. Some coaches knew. Shapiro was a booster and given special treatment by Miami.

USC lost 30 scholarships and 2 years of post season. One player and his family received massive benefits from someone who was not a booster and received nothing from USC.

How would you punish Miami to be in line with the USC penalties?

I will accept your interpretation of what Jason wrote but I don't see many parallels. The NCAA has been on this for 5 months and appears to be doing through job before saying anything which is much different than the way Nifong acted.
SoCal



SoCal

[Nugget]

Look, I don't think they'll get the death penalty either. Too much damage to the conference. But let's be honest, Miami is much closer to SMU on the spectrum than USC was. USC got caught paying two guys (on some less-than-concrete evidence). There is documented evidence with over 70 players at Miami, and that's just the ones we know about.

Actually, it's even less nefarious than that. "USC" wasn't paying Bush at all -- a wannabe agent, who had no affiliation to the school, was.

[OldPhiKap]

Death penalty seems to be on the table:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/NCAA-President-Mark-Emmert-death-penalty-could-be-option-for-Miami-Hurricanes-081911

[77devil]

I am not sure that the flap over K is one or not, we shall see.

You beat me to it. Thanks. My objection to Klemnop's posts was because he presumed that K's recently publicized contact with a recruit was a violation when, in fact, it has not been established. Not like him to behave irrationally when Carolina isn't the subject

[killerleft]

I agree that Shapiro is probably exaggerating some stuff but for some of the claims there appears to be some evidence. Others were reported confirmed by multiple former players, ie see this on the bounties - http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports-sentinel-sports-now/2011/08/17/miami-booster-claims-he-put-bounties-on-tim-tebow-and-chris-rix/

This is nothing like the Duke lacrosse case.

SoCal

Well, it's not like the lacrosse case yet. But Olympic Fan has certainly made ME think about this from a fresh perspective. I don't doubt that Miami will be seriously hit when all is sorted out. But anything that can't be proven has to be taken with a grain of salt, to say the least. A convicted felon with malice on his mind and no moral compass can (to the tune of $93 million) be COUNTED ON to lie outright, and to embellish any truths with gusto. Determining the full story will take time and may be impossible to do in the long run. Remember, the amazing amount of money he cheated people out of didn't curb any of his appetite and apparent need to be a big shot and hog the spotlight.

And the story breakers at Yahoo! have been spoon-fed all this information. I will concede that they've done some homework on it, but I also expect that they didn't leave out some juicy bits just because they didn't have proof.

One thing is certain: Any decision handed down by the NCAA will not include a large majority of the present allegations. Perhaps, as in the Crystal Mangum hoax, we have been fed some fantastic lies.

[JasonEvans]

To clarify, I was in no way equating these allegations to the ones labelled against the Duke Lax team. I was merely pointing out that, as a school that endure the horror of a rush to judgement before all the facts were know, we should be among the first to urge patience in leaping from accusation to assumption of the truth.

-Jason "I know reporters are asking the NCAA Prez about the death penalty, but just because he won't rule it out, it does not mean he thinks it applies here" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

15 athletes are under the not so watchful eye of Miami now.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6885642/miami-hurricanes-say-15-athletes-investigation

[alteran]

To clarify, I was in no way equating these allegations to the ones labelled against the Duke Lax team. I was merely pointing out that, as a school that endure the horror of a rush to judgement before all the facts were know, we should be among the first to urge patience in leaping from accusation to assumption of the truth.

-Jason "I know reporters are asking the NCAA Prez about the death penalty, but just because he won't rule it out, it does not mean he thinks it applies here" Evans

I would argue that there is a material difference between speculating about what should happen to an institution should charges levied against it (with corroboration and multiple witnesses) be true, and speculating what should happen to individuals in a capital criminal case where individuals are singled out AND subjected to death threats (among many, many other things).

While I agree that a boulder or two of salt is absolutely warranted in the case of Nevin Shapiro, I just don't see any material harm in speculating about the ramifications for Miami should the accusations be true. JMHO.

[OldPhiKap]

I would argue that there is a material difference between speculating about what should happen to an institution should charges levied against it (with corroboration and multiple witnesses) be true, and speculating what should happen to individuals in a capital criminal case where individuals are singled out AND subjected to death threats (among many, many other things).

While I agree that a boulder or two of salt is absolutely warranted in the case of Nevin Shapiro, I just don't see any material harm in speculating about the ramifications for Miami should the accusations be true. JMHO.

FWIW, the WSJ had a huge article today on what would happen if Miami just drops football.

[Jim3k]

Link to the wsj article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903461304576524652558704770.html

[CameronBornAndBred]

Know how the NCAA is going to get the scoop? Offer immunity to transfers, like Marve.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/umiami/2011/08/limited-immunity-just-one-way-the-ncaa-plans-to-try-and-nail-um-says-cbs-sports-report.html

[ACCBBallFan]

As if things were not bad enough, now Julian Gamble has torn his ACL and is likely out for 2011 season

http://www.scacchoops.com/tt_NewsBreaker_External.asp?NB=6123

[Turk]

I will be watching to see how Miami's penalties compare with Ohio State's. I think OSU got a slap on the wrist compared to what should have been handed out. I am guessing that Miami's will be much more severe, but not the death penalty.

[kmspeaks]

Know how the NCAA is going to get the scoop? Offer immunity to transfers, like Marve.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/umiami/2011/08/limited-immunity-just-one-way-the-ncaa-plans-to-try-and-nail-um-says-cbs-sports-report.html

Am I the only one who thinks this is kind of a dirty tactic? I realize similar things are done in criminal cases but it just feels wrong that some of the (allegedly) guilty parties get off scot-free simply because they chose to transfer.

It appears to me that the NCAA mindset is the Auburns and Ohio States of the world make us too much money to bring any real punishment. Miami on the other hand hasn't been very good lately but their still enough of a household name that we can make it look like we're not afraid to come down on the big boys. If these accusations are true they deserve to be punished severely but so does Ohio State and it doesn't appear they will get much.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Am I the only one who thinks this is kind of a dirty tactic? I realize similar things are done in criminal cases but it just feels wrong that some of the (allegedly) guilty parties get off scot-free simply because they chose to transfer.

It appears to me that the NCAA mindset is the Auburns and Ohio States of the world make us too much money to bring any real punishment. Miami on the other hand hasn't been very good lately but their still enough of a household name that we can make it look like we're not afraid to come down on the big boys. If these accusations are true they deserve to be punished severely but so does Ohio State and it doesn't appear they will get much.

Auburn and Ohio State are too important to the NCAA. It has been all about the money. There is no other way to rationialize letting Cam Newton and the Ohio State players finish their season and play in bowl games last year.

Regarding letting the guilty off scot free, in the bizarro world of the NCAA there may be guilty players playing in bowl games (because they talked) while completely innocent USC players (who were in middle school when Reggie Bush and his family were accepting benefits) are home.

SoCal

[Bob Green]

This article indicates 13 'Canes will be ineligible until reinstated by the NCAA:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6894959/thirteen-miami-hurricanes-players-ineligible-reinstated-ncaa-source-says

[Newton_14]

This article indicates 13 'Canes will be ineligible until reinstated by the NCAA:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6894959/thirteen-miami-hurricanes-players-ineligible-reinstated-ncaa-source-says

Good find Bob. Looks like Miami is going to go thru what UNC experienced last season. Will be interesting to see if the team rallies around the new coach and plays well, or packs it in and plays poorly. Who does Miami have at QB besides Harris, whose undoubtedly will be one of those 13?

[blazindw]

Good find Bob. Looks like Miami is going to go thru what UNC experienced last season. Will be interesting to see if the team rallies around the new coach and plays well, or packs it in and plays poorly. Who does Miami have at QB besides Harris, whose undoubtedly will be one of those 13?

Jacory is one of the 13. That most likely leaves our QB1 as Stephen Morris, who came in last year when Jacory was hurt and a couple times when Jacory forgot that his teammates wore the same color he was wearing. Some Canes fans would say that it was still a QB competition between Morris and Jacory for QB1 before all this happened. Spencer Whipple (son of former OC Mark Whipple) will probably be the 2nd string.

[Newton_14]

Jacory is one of the 13. That most likely leaves our QB1 as Stephen Morris, who came in last year when Jacory was hurt and a couple times when Jacory forgot that his teammates wore the same color he was wearing. Some Canes fans would say that it was still a QB competition between Morris and Jacory for QB1 before all this happened. Spencer Whipple (son of former OC Mark Whipple) will probably be the 2nd string.

Thanks! What are your thoughts on the talent level without the 13 and what level of play we can expect from Miami given all the turmoil? Do you feel they have what it takes play well in these circumstances or do you see them going the other way and racking up losses?

[Bob Green]

Jacory is one of the 13.

How about defensive backs Ray Ray Armstrong and Jo Jo Nicolas?

[OldPhiKap]

How about defensive backs Ray Ray Armstrong and Jo Jo Nicolas?

Would Ray Ray and Jo Jo count as two people, or four?

-- OPOPK

[Indoor66]

Would Ray Ray and Jo Jo count as two people, or four?

-- OPOPK

It would only be two because the first iteration of the name is silent.

[blazindw]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/08/26/2375967/miami-hurricanes-confirm-players.html

Armstrong and Nicolas are not listed in the report. Only confirmed names are Jacory and Sean Spence, according to the Miami Herald. I believe all of them were at practice except for Nicolas, whose infant son--born prematurely recently--passed away Wednesday. There are as many as 13 that can be ineligible, though 5 of them are reported to have taken benefits of less than $100. They can pay back that money and be once again eligible to play, so I don't think they were reported to the NCAA. We just don't know who, except for Jacory and Spence, are on what list.

I don't have any worries about Morris taking the lead on offense. However, a lot of the players that could be ineligible were expected to be big time contributors on offense and defense. Honestly, we could be in a lot of trouble if all of these players can't play. A lot of trouble. After these guys, we have a lot of inexperience. Most of the starters have been starters since they were freshmen and sophomores, so the backups haven't had a lot of time. Not to mention that we lost a lot of talent to the NFL. I would think without them, it could be a rough year for dem Miami boyz. Still, I keep the faith that the youngsters can step up in the absence of those players and start smashing folks on the field...especially Ohio Snake on September 17th.

[roywhite]

Good for Charles Robinson.

He defends his reporting on the Miami scandal and destroys Jason Whitlock's claims.
Check out the interview that is linked from DBR's front page.