PDA

View Full Version : Top Ten Players in the ACC



JasonEvans
08-08-2011, 09:22 PM
Dunno why, but Yahoo has put up an article and a list (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AvfbSrf2nIee4crjbAbK0Z3evbYF?slug=jn-king_top_10_players_in_acc_basketball_080811) of the Top 10 players in the conference. It is very, very, very heavy on the wrong shade of blue.

I am not sure if it is supposed to be in order or not, but they list the following players in the following order--


Harry Barnes
James McAdoo
Austin Rivers
John Henson
Tyler Zeller
Mason Plumlee
Kendall Marshall
Malcolm Grant
Reggie Johnson (do they know he is hurt?)
CJ Leslie

-Jason "let the debate begin... pesonally, I just don't think McAdoo is going to see enough court time to be all-that this year" Evans

gumbomoop
08-08-2011, 09:48 PM
Dunno why, but Yahoo has put up an article and a list (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AvfbSrf2nIee4crjbAbK0Z3evbYF?slug=jn-king_top_10_players_in_acc_basketball_080811) of the Top 10 players in the conference. It is very, very, very heavy on the wrong shade of blue.

I am not sure if it is supposed to be in order or not, but they list the following players in the following order--


Harry Barnes
James McAdoo
Austin Rivers
John Henson
Tyler Zeller
Mason Plumlee
Kendall Marshall
Malcolm Grant
Reggie Johnson (do they know he is hurt?)
CJ Leslie

-Jason "let the debate begin... pesonally, I just don't think McAdoo is going to see enough court time to be all-that this year" Evans

I'd guess this list is in the author's order, and I might go along with the top 5 in that order, maybe switching Zeller and Henson. I assume that McAdoo will get 25 mpg, unless Roy is dumb enough to give either Desmond Hubert or Jackson Simmons [blue team for those frosh, fine.....] meaningful minutes.

Absent Roy's nutiness in playing too many guys [say, 12-13] every game, the Heels rotating 3 bigs [PF and C] are Zeller, Henson, and McAdoo, of whom McAdoo is the best, ultimately. IMO, he's nationally #2 frosh, after Anthony Davis. But maybe AR will fly past both of 'em.

I think I'd want Mike Scott on the list, and maybe Seth. Either of those guys would nip in ahead of the injured Reggie. Leslie as top 10? I don't know. Mason? I don't know.

Despite my high regard for the Heels' very talented 5 guys, Duke will still challenge them for ACC #1. IMO, there will be less distance, record-wise, between Heels and Devils than between Devils and 'Noles.

Newton_14
08-08-2011, 10:08 PM
I'd guess this list is in the author's order, and I might go along with the top 5 in that order, maybe switching Zeller and Henson. I assume that McAdoo will get 25 mpg, unless Roy is dumb enough to give either Desmond Hubert or Jackson Simmons [blue team for those frosh, fine.....] meaningful minutes.

Absent Roy's nutiness in playing too many guys [say, 12-13] every game, the Heels rotating 3 bigs [PF and C] are Zeller, Henson, and McAdoo, of whom McAdoo is the best, ultimately. IMO, he's nationally #2 frosh, after Anthony Davis. But maybe AR will fly past both of 'em.

I think I'd want Mike Scott on the list, and maybe Seth. Either of those guys would nip in ahead of the injured Reggie. Leslie as top 10? I don't know. Mason? I don't know.

Despite my high regard for the Heels' very talented 5 guys, Duke will still challenge them for ACC #1. IMO, there will be less distance, record-wise, between Heels and Devils than between Devils and 'Noles.

I don't have the love for McAdoo that some have. Good player, but not over-whelming, especially out of the gate playing behind the two in front of him. I would not rate him above Austin, nor Bradley Beal.

As for the Top Ten List, too many Heels. Seth will have a say in that, as will Mike Scott as you mention, and FSU is rumored to have a guy or two that can play the game. As for our guys, I am fine with flying below the radar. Let them all think that Ryan Kelly, Andre Dawkins, Miles Plumlee, Murph, Silent G, Tyler, Josh, Cook, MP3, Seth and the gang are a bunch of stiffs. ..:)

gumbomoop
08-08-2011, 10:33 PM
I don't have the love for McAdoo that some have. Good player, but not over-whelming, especially out of the gate playing behind the two in front of him. I would not rate him above Austin, nor Bradley Beal.

As for the Top Ten List, too many Heels. Seth will have a say in that, as will Mike Scott as you mention, and FSU is rumored to have a guy or two that can play the game. As for our guys, I am fine with flying below the radar. Let them all think that Ryan Kelly, Andre Dawkins, Miles Plumlee, Murph, Silent G, Tyler, Josh, Cook, MP3, Seth and the gang are a bunch of stiffs. ..:)

Although Anthony Davis's multi-talents were more striking in the several all-star games I saw, McAdoo's relentlessness on both O and D was very impressive. I assume Roy will not play either Zeller or Henson 30 mpg, so I've convinced myself that McAdoo will get plenty of PT, and will be efficient at both ends.

I wonder whether FSU's Bernard James or Michael Snaer will blossom, and whether Dorenzo Hudson will be healthy and VT's obvious go-to guy.

I know there must be some inconsistency in my view that, pre-season, I could see all these 5 Heels as top 7-8 in the conference, yet also think Duke will challenge for #1. But maybe it's 2 factors: (1) A win is a win, so even if the Heels win more blowouts, that doesn't necessarily translate into more wins than Duke will get. And (2), as I've argued, incessantly, on the schedule thread, UNC has a slightly more challenging unbalanced mess than does Duke, with perhaps one more tough road test than the Devils will face.

COYS
08-08-2011, 11:04 PM
Although Anthony Davis's multi-talents were more striking in the several all-star games I saw, McAdoo's relentlessness on both O and D was very impressive. I assume Roy will not play either Zeller or Henson 30 mpg, so I've convinced myself that McAdoo will get plenty of PT, and will be efficient at both ends.

I wonder whether FSU's Bernard James or Michael Snaer will blossom, and whether Dorenzo Hudson will be healthy and VT's obvious go-to guy.

I know there must be some inconsistency in my view that, pre-season, I could see all these 5 Heels as top 7-8 in the conference, yet also think Duke will challenge for #1. But maybe it's 2 factors: (1) A win is a win, so even if the Heels win more blowouts, that doesn't necessarily translate into more wins than Duke will get. And (2), as I've argued, incessantly, on the schedule thread, UNC has a slightly more challenging unbalanced mess than does Duke, with perhaps one more tough road test than the Devils will face.

This list also suffers from an unrealistic view of Marshall (the one wearing puke blue, that is). He had a very strong freshmen campaign, I'll agree. He was important in the Heels turnaround. But I'm not sure that he showed any more than Seth, who also completed his first ACC season. Seth was far superior to Kendal in every category except assists and assist rate (an admittedly impressive 40%!). Kendal made all of 20 three pointers all season (for a respectable 37%), was mediocre from the line, and turned the ball over on 30% of his possessions. I think he's a talented player who played well for a freshman. But he was not a world-beater. His pedestrian 100.4 offensive rating pales in comparison to Seth's killer rating of 121.7. I think Marshall deserves a lot of credit for sparking the Heels, but I also think he is probably given a little too much credit. I think people have discounted Seth's ability because he has been overshadowed by the Rivers Hype (which, I anticipate, will be deserved). But don't be surprised if Seth gets higher all ACC honors next year than Kendall. Kendall wlll almost assuredly have more assists. But Seth won't be a slouch in that department and his scoring output will be far superior as will his shooting percentages and turnover rate. Seth was the better player last year and I anticipate that he will continue to be the better player this year, as well.

Newton_14
08-08-2011, 11:08 PM
Although Anthony Davis's multi-talents were more striking in the several all-star games I saw, McAdoo's relentlessness on both O and D was very impressive. I assume Roy will not play either Zeller or Henson 30 mpg, so I've convinced myself that McAdoo will get plenty of PT, and will be efficient at both ends.

I wonder whether FSU's Bernard James or Michael Snaer will blossom, and whether Dorenzo Hudson will be healthy and VT's obvious go-to guy.

I know there must be some inconsistency in my view that, pre-season, I could see all these 5 Heels as top 7-8 in the conference, yet also think Duke will challenge for #1. But maybe it's 2 factors: (1) A win is a win, so even if the Heels win more blowouts, that doesn't necessarily translate into more wins than Duke will get. And (2), as I've argued, incessantly, on the schedule thread, UNC has a slightly more challenging unbalanced mess than does Duke, with perhaps one more tough road test than the Devils will face.

I agree McAdoo will get plenty of PT in the 3 man rotation. Absolutely. It will be interesting to see if he is just a solid player as I am expecting him to be, or if he is a star in the making that wows. I hope the former of course. UNC will be good, no doubt, but not unbeatable. Our kids won't back down, so I don't feel it is inconsistent at all to predict that UNC will be really good, but also predict Duke will challenge them hard for both ACC goals. We will be young, but if folks are expecting Duke to be weak, they will be sadly mistaken.

Wheat/"/"/"
08-08-2011, 11:10 PM
Tyler Zeller does not seem to get the respect that he deserves, probably because he's not flashy. He has an excellent all around game and plays hard.
He will be All ACC, and is the best center in the league.

Wheat/"/"/"
08-08-2011, 11:19 PM
I agree McAdoo will get plenty of PT in the 3 man rotation. Absolutely. It will be interesting to see if he is just a solid player as I am expecting him to be, or if he is a star in the making that wows. I hope the former of course. UNC will be good, no doubt, but not unbeatable. Our kids won't back down, so I don't feel it is inconsistent at all to predict that UNC will be really good, but also predict Duke will challenge them hard for both ACC goals. We will be young, but if folks are expecting Duke to be weak, they will be sadly mistaken.

That Snaer (FSU) kid can play. He just has to learn to bring it every night.

Nobody I respect thinks Duke is going to be weak this season. I thought UNC was better last season, yet Duke won 2 out of 3. Why? Because Duke can shoot it and if the shots fall, Duke can beat anyone. If Mason can deliver some stronger post offense, which he has the talent to do, Duke is right in the mix for a national title run next season instead of being a spoiler.

gumbomoop
08-08-2011, 11:22 PM
Tyler Zeller does not seem to get the respect that he deserves, probably because he's not flashy. He has an excellent all around game and plays hard.
He will be All ACC, and is the best center in the league.

I agree, and think he's better on D than many assume. Am I wrong [Wheat? others?] in thinking Zeller had become pretty good on D by late last season? In my mind's memory-eye, I see Zeller with good position, nicking around his man to flick away or intercept post-passes. Zeller any good as a passer?

Because I just didn't see Mike Scott enough 2 years ago, I really don't know how good he is. Anybody know his strengths and weaknesses?

Wheat/"/"/"
08-08-2011, 11:40 PM
I agree, and think he's better on D than many assume. Am I wrong [Wheat? others?] in thinking Zeller had become pretty good on D by late last season? In my mind's memory-eye, I see Zeller with good position, nicking around his man to flick away or intercept post-passes. Zeller any good as a passer?

Because I just didn't see Mike Scott enough 2 years ago, I really don't know how good he is. Anybody know his strengths and weaknesses?

I think Zeller is a good position defender and plays tougher than people give him credit for. His defensive issues are that he's not "springy" and his rebounding instincts are not that great. He has good hands, but not exactly strong hands.

He plays smart D, and usually won't reach in or come over the back. Strong offensive post players can score on him, but he makes them work for it....and he's a legit 7'.

He can pass, run, shoot and score with the best bigs in the country.

Wander
08-09-2011, 12:04 AM
Seth was far superior to Kendal in every category except assists and assist rate (an admittedly impressive 40%!).

You're comparing apples and oranges. Marshall is a pure pass-first point guard and Curry is a scorer. It goes without saying that Marshall is a better passer and Curry is a better scorer. The difference is that Curry is a legitimately good scorer, but Marshall is arguably the best passer in college basketball.

I think the list, if meant to be in order, is a bit too based upon NBA potential. McAdoo and Plumlee too high, Marshall and Curry too low. And Scott of UVA should replace Malcolm Grant.

NovaScotian
08-09-2011, 05:38 AM
You're comparing apples and oranges. Marshall is a pure pass-first point guard and Curry is a scorer. It goes without saying that Marshall is a better passer and Curry is a better scorer. The difference is that Curry is a legitimately good scorer, but Marshall is arguably the best passer in college basketball.


yea, not to diss my man seth, but i think most coaches in the country would rather have kendall running the point. he'll probably end up first team all conference, and i think could improve a hell of a lot more than harry will.

gumbomoop
08-09-2011, 07:39 AM
As long as I'm giving so much love to some Heels, I feel compelled to point out a couple of flaws I certainly hope go uncorrected.

For Barnes, his handle, the inadequacy of which last season made him uncertain, timid even, in getting to the rim from the wing. We remember his impressive thunder dunks because they were so rare. So I hope his time at CP3 camp was wasted. When Barnes develops a handle anywhere near as good as his other talents, the hype will be realized. I hope that occurs, at the earliest, a couple of years from now.

For Marshall, his decision making, the inconsistency of which sometimes gets ignored as we marvel at the beauty of his long passes and the variety and precision of his post passes. For one as court-smart as is Marshall, he's up in the air several times a game with no obvious target for one of his passes. He is often brilliant, occasionally Drew II-like. [Now there's an insult that should wake him up....]

McAdoo will be superb, but as Newton_14 noted in an earlier post, probably not out of the gate. My fear is that McAdoo, unlike Barnes, will be less self-consciously "driven" and simply be matter-of-factly, no drama, driven. My hope is that Barnes set him a fine example of self-obsession. But I fear McAdoo is too normal.

jimrowe0
08-09-2011, 07:45 AM
Dunno why, but Yahoo has put up an article and a list (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AvfbSrf2nIee4crjbAbK0Z3evbYF?slug=jn-king_top_10_players_in_acc_basketball_080811) of the Top 10 players in the conference. It is very, very, very heavy on the wrong shade of blue.

I am not sure if it is supposed to be in order or not, but they list the following players in the following order--


Harry Barnes
James McAdoo
Austin Rivers
John Henson
Tyler Zeller
Mason Plumlee
Kendall Marshall
Malcolm Grant
Reggie Johnson (do they know he is hurt?)
CJ Leslie

-Jason "let the debate begin... pesonally, I just don't think McAdoo is going to see enough court time to be all-that this year" Evans

Personally I would replace Marshall with Durand Scott, who I think is going to have an all-acc year. Also, I have not been overly impressed with McAdoo. He's a good player, however I certainly don't expect him to be in the list this year. Replace McAdoo with Seth Curry, which I belive will be the leading scorer for Duke this year.

That would be my list

CDu
08-09-2011, 08:44 AM
Dunno why, but Yahoo has put up an article and a list (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news;_ylt=AvfbSrf2nIee4crjbAbK0Z3evbYF?slug=jn-king_top_10_players_in_acc_basketball_080811) of the Top 10 players in the conference. It is very, very, very heavy on the wrong shade of blue.

I am not sure if it is supposed to be in order or not, but they list the following players in the following order--


Harry Barnes
James McAdoo
Austin Rivers
John Henson
Tyler Zeller
Mason Plumlee
Kendall Marshall
Malcolm Grant
Reggie Johnson (do they know he is hurt?)
CJ Leslie

-Jason "let the debate begin... pesonally, I just don't think McAdoo is going to see enough court time to be all-that this year" Evans

Well, I'm going to have trouble taking an article seriously when it lists four frontcourt players as starters for UNC. McAdoo is almost certainly not going to start this year barring injury.

Count me in the camp that's not quite as high on McAdoo. Not because of playing time (I think he'll get 20-25mpg) but because I'm not sure the hype is warranted. His all star game performances were solid, but they were enhanced by a lot of free cherry-picking buckets as the quality of play deteriorated. I think he'll be good, but I'd rate Zeller, Henson, Mason Plumlee, and CJ Leslie ahead of McAdoo right now. I'd have rated Johnson ahead of him too if not for the injury. If Johnson returns to form by January then I'll rate Johnson ahead of him too.

I'm not surprised by the list though. It's almost entirely based on hype (only Grant and Johnson are under-the-radar guys), and a lot of our players don't have the hype yet. Any number of guys could end up stepping up and making 1st/2nd team All-ACC (Curry, Dawkins, and Kelly are the most likely possibilities to join Rivers and Mason), but none are strong/sure bets right now. Marshall, Barnes, Zeller, and Henson have the past performance in their favor and McAdoo has the hype.

It's also reflective of the fact that the talent in the rest of the ACC has taken a big hit. Other guys who could sneak in would be the Scotts (Durand and Mike), Stoglin, Hudson, and maybe one of the FSU guys (Snaer or White?).

COYS
08-09-2011, 09:12 AM
yea, not to diss my man seth, but i think most coaches in the country would rather have kendall running the point. he'll probably end up first team all conference, and i think could improve a hell of a lot more than harry will.

I'm going to defend my stance a little, here. Yes, Marshall is a better passer than Curry. But he was also a turnover machine last year, a liability on defense, and didn't shoot enough from long range. When running the break he is deadly (where most of his assists come from), but he struggles in the half court. I think Kendall gets deserved praise for his assist numbers, but I think people overrate the value of a "pure" point guard when everything else they do on the offensive end (turnovers, shooting, free throws, etc.) and defensive end are below average. I would rather have a player who creates 122 points per 100 possessions and does a pretty good job distributing the ball (as Seth did last year) instead of a player who gets a lot of assists but turns the ball over on 30% of their possessions, doesn't shoot particularly well, and is a mediocre defender. I actually really like Marshall. I think he will become a great point guard. By this time next year, we will probably be talking about him as one of the best in the nation. I think he's a dangerous player and bottling him up like Nolan did in the ACC championship game is the key to stopping UNC's attack. That said, I think his impressive passing statistics are hiding the other parts of his game that are subpar. Seth is better in every single other category. separating them because one is a "pure" point and the other isn't seems arbitrary since the list is supposed to be the 10 best players regardless of position.

Duvall
08-09-2011, 09:18 AM
Well, I'm going to have trouble taking an article seriously when it lists four frontcourt players as starters for UNC. McAdoo is almost certainly not going to start this year barring injury.

To be fair, I can easily believe that Barnes would make a better shooting guard than any of UNC's guards. So a lineup with Barnes and McAdoo might be UNC's best bet.

ACCBBallFan
08-09-2011, 09:26 AM
Here's a site that tried to project the 2011-2012 production, sans frosh.

http://www.scacchoops.com/StatProjections.asp?Season=2012

I sorted their results to reflect more than just points scored by summing Points, assists, rebounds, Steals and Blocks and then subtracting Turnovers:

Player Name Pts Asts Rbds Stls Blks TOs Score Team

Harrison Barnes 16.8 2.3 6.9 1.3 0.9 2.4 25.8 NC
Tyler Zeller 14.9 1.3 7.9 1.0 1.0 1.9 24.2 NC
Travis McKie 15.2 1.8 7.3 1.2 1.1 2.5 24.1 WF
C J Leslie 13.7 1.3 8.0 1.0 1.9 2.2 23.7 ST
Mike Scott 14.8 1.2 7.5 1.0 1.1 2.0 23.6 VA
Durand Scott 15.4 3.8 4.1 1.6 0.3 2.4 22.8 MI
John Henson 13.3 1.2 8.2 1.0 1.3 2.2 22.8 NC
Malcolm Grant 16.6 2.9 3.2 1.4 0.2 2.1 22.2 MI
Andre Young 15.2 3.1 3.5 1.4 0.3 2.2 21.3 CL
Terrell Stoglin 14.6 3.5 3.3 1.3 0.2 2.6 20.3 MD

Sean Mosley 11.9 2.3 5.6 1.2 0.7 2.0 19.7 MD
J T Terrell 14.2 3.2 3.3 1.2 0.2 2.5 19.6 WF
Glen Rice Jr 12.4 2.3 4.7 1.4 0.5 1.9 19.4 GT
Lorenzo Brown 12.9 3.4 3.7 1.3 0.3 2.6 19.0 ST
Reggie Johnson 10.9 0.9 6.5 0.6 0.8 1.7 18.0 MI
Xavier Gibson 10.3 0.9 6.5 0.7 1.3 1.8 17.9 FS
Dorenzo Hudson 12.3 2.1 3.7 1.1 0.2 1.7 17.7 VT
Mason Plumlee 09.6 1.0 6.9 0.9 1.1 1.8 17.7 DU
Richard Howell 10.3 1.4 6.0 0.9 0.7 1.7 17.6 ST
Devin Booker 10.0 1.3 6.2 1.1 0.9 1.9 17.6 CL

Wheat/"/"/"
08-09-2011, 09:35 AM
Count me in on the wait and see side with McAdoo. I try to follow recruits closely, but I have not seen any of them play a meaningful game. That includes Rivers, P.J.Hairston,etc....

I don't know how we can make informed opinions without seeing them. I trust my eyes, because I've seen too many playersr come into the league, like John Henson, who were clearly not ready to contribute right away as all the recruiting sites said.

gumbomoop
08-09-2011, 09:43 AM
Count me in the camp that's not quite as high on McAdoo. Not because of playing time (I think he'll get 20-25mpg) but because I'm not sure the hype is warranted. His all star game performances were solid, but they were enhanced by a lot of free cherry-picking buckets as the quality of play deteriorated.

I agree with most of what CDu wrote in his post, and so apologize [a little, and insincerely] for focusing only on my disagreement re McAdoo.

MPG - It's tough to get a good sense of this, because of Roy's system, including a strong tendency to give everyone some PT. I'll reemphasize what I said in an earlier post, that, by late season anyway, if Roy limits Jackson Simmons and Desmond Hubert each to a brief cameo, that leaves 77-78 mpg at the 4 & 5 spots. OK, give Zeller and Henson 27-28 each, leaving ~ 23 for McAdoo. I hope, but do not think, CDu's low-end est of 20 mpg comes true, for the Heels will be better for every minute McAdoo is on the floor.

Hype - IMO [a minority, but not unique opinion], McAdoo isn't hyped enough, because there's nothing flashy about his game, which is understated, no-trash-talk, happy, relentless, alert, comprehensive. My own view of his talent has nothing to do with the points he scored in - was it the Jordan Classic? CDu is right that he got some cherry-picks. But he didn't cherry-pick rebounds and baskets in traffic. He didn't cherry-pick smooth internal passes. He was everywhere, disrupting opponents, facilitating good play for his team.

So, I agree that statistically he probably won't be a top-10 guy this season. But in terms of "value-added," he will be way up there. I predict.

ACCBBallFan
08-09-2011, 09:48 AM
Here is what that site had for Duke players, excl frosh:

Duke Player Pts Asts Rbds Stls Blks TOs Index

Mason Plumlee 09.6 1.0 6.9 0.9 1.1 1.8 17.7 DU
Seth Curry 11.3 2.3 2.9 1.0 0.2 2.0 15.7 DU
Ryan Kelly 09.1 1.2 4.5 0.7 0.5 1.4 14.6 DU
Andre Dawkins 10.4 1.7 2.5 0.9 0.2 1.5 14.2 DU
Miles Plumlee 06.4 0.6 5.3 0.5 0.8 1.4 12.2 DU
Josh Hairston 05.2 0.5 3.4 0.5 0.3 1.0 08.9 DU
Tyler Thornton 04.4 2.0 1.7 0.6 0.1 1.4 07.4 DU

The other guys projected ahead of Seth Curry, (and Ryan Kelly and Dre Dawkins) per this site:

Scott Wood 12.6 2.0 3.3 0.9 0.3 1.7 17.4 ST
Michael Snaer 11.5 2.9 3.1 1.4 0.2 2.1 17.0 FS
Joe Harris 11.2 1.8 4.2 1.0 0.6 1.9 16.9 VA
Okaro White 10.9 1.5 4.4 0.8 0.7 1.7 16.6 FS
Milton Jennings 09.9 1.5 5.3 1.0 0.7 1.8 16.6 CL
Dexter Strickland 10.7 2.9 3.2 1.2 0.2 1.8 16.4 NC
Sammy Zeglinski 10.5 2.8 3.4 1.3 0.3 1.9 16.4 VA
Bernard James 09.3 0.9 5.6 0.7 1.6 1.7 16.4 FS
Tanner Smith 10.0 2.8 4.0 1.2 0.2 2.0 16.2 CL
J.T. Thompson 09.8 1.1 5.7 0.7 0.6 1.7 16.2 VT
DeQuan Jones 09.7 1.3 4.9 0.9 0.7 1.7 15.8 MI

Despite the general opinion that ACC will be UNC, Duke and then a bunch of nobody's, you can see that there are quite a few good players returning for everybody but BC (Rubin and Moton if they both return). MD (Stoglin, Mosley, PJ Howard and Padgett) and GT (Rice Jr, Udofia, Dan Miller, Jason Morris and Kammeron Holsey) are kind of light on number of solid returnees, and of course are adjusting to new coaches.

It's wait to see if the Wake guys get better results with McKie, J T Terrell, C J Harris, Carson Desrosiers, Tony Chennault and Nikita Mescharikov even after suspending Ty Walker and Tabb.

Miami agian has Durand Scott, Malcolm Grant, Reggie Johnson, Dequan Jones, Garius Adams, Julian Gamble, plus Rion Brown.

FSU has Xavier Gibson, Michael Snaer, Okaro White, Bernard James, Deveidas Dulkys, Luke Loucks and Terrence Shannon hwo played well vs Duke.

Even without Harrow, NC State has CJ leslie, Lo Brown, Richard Howell, Scott Wood, C J Williams and Deshawn painter.

UVA gets Mike Scott back plus Joe Harris, Sammy Zeiglinski, KT Harrell, Jostel Evans and Assane Sene.

Clemson has Andre Young, Devon Booker, Milton Jennings, Tanner Smith and Brian Narcisse.

VA Tech getds red shirts Dorenzo Hudson and JT Thompson and possibly Allan Chaney plus Victor Davilla, Erick Green and maybe Jarrelle Eddie.

So while few if any of these other ACC teams may be top 25, many should at least be inside the bubble of 68 NCAA Tourney teams.

Slackerb
08-09-2011, 10:21 AM
I could see Lorenzo Brown sneaking into the back end of a top ten list this year.

His number from last year were good, but he was switching roles between SG and PG a lot, until the end of the year. This year, he'll be the man running the show at State, and he could put up some lofty numbers. 9.3 PPG, 3.7 APG, 3.7 RPG are good numbers for a freshman combo guard.

CDu
08-09-2011, 10:33 AM
To be fair, I can easily believe that Barnes would make a better shooting guard than any of UNC's guards. So a lineup with Barnes and McAdoo might be UNC's best bet.

I don't think Barnes has the ballhandling skills to play SG. Further, I don't think McAdoo has the skills to play the wing. UNC's best bet is with Barnes at the 3, with Hairston and Bullock backing him up there.

CDu
08-09-2011, 10:39 AM
Hype - IMO [a minority, but not unique opinion], McAdoo isn't hyped enough, because there's nothing flashy about his game, which is understated, no-trash-talk, happy, relentless, alert, comprehensive. My own view of his talent has nothing to do with the points he scored in - was it the Jordan Classic? CDu is right that he got some cherry-picks. But he didn't cherry-pick rebounds and baskets in traffic. He didn't cherry-pick smooth internal passes. He was everywhere, disrupting opponents, facilitating good play for his team.

So, I agree that statistically he probably won't be a top-10 guy this season. But in terms of "value-added," he will be way up there. I predict.

I agree that he was better than most of the other bigs in that all-star game. But I also think that most the other bigs (aside from Davis, obviously) were not that good.

McAdoo is a smart player who will fit in very well and will definitely add value. But I certainly don't think he's the #2 player in the ACC (statistically or otherwise). In terms of value added, he might crack the top 10, but I'd lump him with a lot of others in that regard. It sounds like we're mainly in agreement, just arguing semantics.

Indoor66
08-09-2011, 10:40 AM
Here is what that site had for Duke players, excl frosh:

Duke Player Pts Asts Rbds Stls Blks TOs Index

Mason Plumlee 09.6 1.0 6.9 0.9 1.1 1.8 17.7 DU
Seth Curry 11.3 2.3 2.9 1.0 0.2 2.0 15.7 DU
Ryan Kelly 09.1 1.2 4.5 0.7 0.5 1.4 14.6 DU
Andre Dawkins 10.4 1.7 2.5 0.9 0.2 1.5 14.2 DU
Miles Plumlee 06.4 0.6 5.3 0.5 0.8 1.4 12.2 DU
Josh Hairston 05.2 0.5 3.4 0.5 0.3 1.0 08.9 DU
Tyler Thornton 04.4 2.0 1.7 0.6 0.1 1.4 07.4 DU

The other guys projected ahead of Seth Curry, (and Ryan Kelly and Dre Dawkins) per this site:

Scott Wood 12.6 2.0 3.3 0.9 0.3 1.7 17.4 ST
Michael Snaer 11.5 2.9 3.1 1.4 0.2 2.1 17.0 FS
Joe Harris 11.2 1.8 4.2 1.0 0.6 1.9 16.9 VA
Okaro White 10.9 1.5 4.4 0.8 0.7 1.7 16.6 FS
Milton Jennings 09.9 1.5 5.3 1.0 0.7 1.8 16.6 CL
Dexter Strickland 10.7 2.9 3.2 1.2 0.2 1.8 16.4 NC
Sammy Zeglinski 10.5 2.8 3.4 1.3 0.3 1.9 16.4 VA
Bernard James 09.3 0.9 5.6 0.7 1.6 1.7 16.4 FS
Tanner Smith 10.0 2.8 4.0 1.2 0.2 2.0 16.2 CL
J.T. Thompson 09.8 1.1 5.7 0.7 0.6 1.7 16.2 VT
DeQuan Jones 09.7 1.3 4.9 0.9 0.7 1.7 15.8 MI

Despite the general opinion that ACC will be UNC, Duke and then a bunch of nobody's, you can see that there are quite a few good players returning for everybody but BC (Rubin and Moton if they both return). MD (Stoglin, Mosley, PJ Howard and Padgett) and GT (Rice Jr, Udofia, Dan Miller, Jason Morris and Kammeron Holsey) are kind of light on number of solid returnees, and of course are adjusting to new coaches.

It's wait to see if the Wake guys get better results with McKie, J T Terrell, C J Harris, Carson Desrosiers, Tony Chennault and Nikita Mescharikov even after suspending Ty Walker and Tabb.

Miami agian has Durand Scott, Malcolm Grant, Reggie Johnson, Dequan Jones, Garius Adams, Julian Gamble, plus Rion Brown.

FSU has Xavier Gibson, Michael Snaer, Okaro White, Bernard James, Deveidas Dulkys, Luke Loucks and Terrence Shannon hwo played well vs Duke.

Even without Harrow, NC State has CJ leslie, Lo Brown, Richard Howell, Scott Wood, C J Williams and Deshawn painter.

UVA gets Mike Scott back plus Joe Harris, Sammy Zeiglinski, KT Harrell, Jostel Evans and Assane Sene.

Clemson has Andre Young, Devon Booker, Milton Jennings, Tanner Smith and Brian Narcisse.

VA Tech getds red shirts Dorenzo Hudson and JT Thompson and possibly Allan Chaney plus Victor Davilla, Erick Green and maybe Jarrelle Eddie.

So while few if any of these other ACC teams may be top 25, many should at least be inside the bubble of 68 NCAA Tourney teams.

IMO, what is missing from these equations is what left the teams in June of 2011. For Duke we lost Singler and Smith and that was a lot of points that will now go to remaining players. UNC will return, essentially, all of its scoring from last year so there are fewer "new" points to spread around. This results in the Duke players having lower performance numbers.

I think we may be undervaluing our players.

NSDukeFan
08-09-2011, 10:54 AM
I don't think this list is nearly as bad as last year's Yahoo or CBS top 50 players in the NCAA. A few players that I don't think will be on the top 2 ACC teams, but maybe close to the third and haven't been mentioned yet are Bernard James, Milton Jennings, Erick Green, Victor Davila, Lorenzo Brown, Scott Wood, or Joe Harris. James averaged close to 9ppg, 6rpg and 2bpg last year and Jennings may be poised for a breakthrough (maybe Snaer for FSU as well?) I also wouldn't include McAdoo yet, as I am not yet sure he will be one of the few transcendent freshmen to be an all-ACC performer. My guess at this time would be:

1st team: Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Mike Scott, Seth Curry
2nd team: Austin Rivers, Dorenzo Hudson, Malcolm Grant, CJ Leslie, Andre Young
3rd team: Michael Snaer, Mason Plumlee, Durand Scott, Bernard James, Reggie Johnson

with honourabale mention going to Andre Dawkins, Ryan Kelly, Miles Plumlee, Kendall Marshall, Lorenzo Brown, Milton Jennings, James McAdoo, Erick Green, Terrell Stoglin and Joe Harris

CDu
08-09-2011, 11:08 AM
IMO, what is missing from these equations is what left the teams in June of 2011. For Duke we lost Singler and Smith and that was a lot of points that will now go to remaining players. UNC will return, essentially, all of its scoring from last year so there are fewer "new" points to spread around. This results in the Duke players having lower performance numbers.

I think we may be undervaluing our players.

Yeah, those estimates for the Duke players are terrible. I can't imagine that Plumlee only averages 6.9 rpg and 1.1 bpg considering he averaged 8.4 rpg and 1.7 bpg last year. I also can't see the combination of Curry and Dawkins only jumping a combined 4ppg this year.

People are most certainly underestimating the production of some of our returning players - it's just a question of which ones and by how much. Several people are going to pick up at least some of the 38ppg and 11rpg lost from Singler and Smith (and the 5-6 ppg and 1 rpg that Irving gave us when spread out over the course of the season). Whether the slack is completely picked up remains to be seen, but at least some of those numbers for our players will certainly go up - probably by more than any other team's returning players outside of maybe VaTech (since we lost more production than any other team).

That site is either overestimating the production of the incoming freshmen or underestimating the production of our returning players.

Side note: I'm amused by the "% correct" title to the last column of data. That's probably a poor choice of words (perhaps "confidence level" would be better), since we have no idea how correct those estimates are until after the season. Based on my first sentence, I'd say the rebounding and shotblocking estimates for Mason are almost assuredly substantial underestimates.

CDu
08-09-2011, 11:23 AM
My guess at this time would be:

1st team: Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Mike Scott, Seth Curry
2nd team: Austin Rivers, Dorenzo Hudson, Malcolm Grant, CJ Leslie, Andre Young
3rd team: Michael Snaer, Mason Plumlee, Durand Scott, Bernard James, Reggie Johnson

with honourabale mention going to Andre Dawkins, Ryan Kelly, Miles Plumlee, Kendall Marshall, Lorenzo Brown, Milton Jennings, James McAdoo, Erick Green, Terrell Stoglin and Joe Harris

I think another guard makes first team and one of those forwards doesn't. The league always has a few guards jump up statistically. I don't expect Curry to make 1st team, but I don't know which ones it'll be. I'd guess any of D.Scott, Grant, Snaer, Brown, Marshall, Green, Rivers, Stoglin, Curry, and Dawkins could make it.

Other guys who could sneak onto the 2nd/3rd/HM lists include Booker, Harrell, Rice Jr (if he's still there), and Pe'Shon Howard.

For some reason, I'm not a huge fan of Andre Young. I know he got 11ppg last year, but I feel like those numbers were more a function of Stitt creating offense for him. I've never been impressed with his ability to run an offense or create his own shot, and without Stitt I wonder whether his production will improve to All-ACC level.

NSDukeFan
08-09-2011, 11:38 AM
I think another guard makes first team and one of those forwards doesn't. The league always has a few guards jump up statistically. I don't expect Curry to make 1st team, but I don't know which ones it'll be. I'd guess any of D.Scott, Grant, Snaer, Brown, Marshall, Green, Rivers, Stoglin, Curry, and Dawkins could make it.

Other guys who could sneak onto the 2nd/3rd/HM lists include Booker, Harrell, Rice Jr (if he's still there), and Pe'Shon Howard.

For some reason, I'm not a huge fan of Andre Young. I know he got 11ppg last year, but I feel like those numbers were more a function of Stitt creating offense for him. I've never been impressed with his ability to run an offense or create his own shot, and without Stitt I wonder whether his production will improve to All-ACC level.

I agree, there aren't a lot of obvious choices for a guard as a first team selection for the upcoming year. I think you listed as good possibilities as any. Should be another fun year in the ACC.

CDu
08-09-2011, 11:48 AM
I agree, there aren't a lot of obvious choices for a guard as a first team selection for the upcoming year. I think you listed as good possibilities as any. Should be another fun year in the ACC.

Yeah there's so much turnover for so many teams. Surely some players will step up. It's just really unclear who it will be. That's part of UNC's edge (aside from also having lots of talent) is that they'll be returning all of their best players and adding some better players to replace the reserves they did lose. Everybody else is having to either replace a ton of production or is starting from a huge talent deficit anyway (or both).

superdave
08-09-2011, 11:59 AM
Remember Al Featherston's article a few months back on how Dawkins' stats mirrored Nolan's first two years of his career? I cant find the article but here's my post (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?25238-2011-12-Starting-Lineup&p=498047#post498047) that borrows Feather's argument.

I expect Andre to take a big step forward. He's got a lot of minutes under his belt and will get opportunities with so much attention paid to our backcourt. I see Andre and Austin Rivers as our two best chances to have a player on the 1st or 2nd team All-ACC. I think Seth will wind up minding the offense a lot and looking for his shot a little less.

NSDukeFan
08-09-2011, 12:01 PM
Yeah there's so much turnover for so many teams. Surely some players will step up. It's just really unclear who it will be. That's part of UNC's edge (aside from also having lots of talent) is that they'll be returning all of their best players and adding some better players to replace the reserves they did lose. Everybody else is having to either replace a ton of production or is starting from a huge talent deficit anyway (or both).

The scary part about UNC is they have a very talented player from each of the last three recruiting classes at their weakest starting position. I wouldn't be surprised if Bullock and/or Strickland had big years (not enough room for huge scoring numbers, but a solid option at that position would make them scarier.) It will make things even sweeter if/when Duke beats that talented roster.

ACCBBallFan
08-09-2011, 12:05 PM
IMO, what is missing from these equations is what left the teams in June of 2011. For Duke we lost Singler and Smith and that was a lot of points that will now go to remaining players. UNC will return, essentially, all of its scoring from last year so there are fewer "new" points to spread around. This results in the Duke players having lower performance numbers.

I think we may be undervaluing our players.

I am not sure how that scacc site does their projections, but I had the same thought as you and CDu about someone on a team losing a bunch of starters having more opportunity to out produce last year's trend than someone on a team returning virtually everybody but their announcer.

The other thing missing from the analysis is the freshmen who Scout rates in this order:

DU Austin Rivers
NC James MCAdoo
NC P J Hairston
VT Dorian Finney-Smith
DU Michael Gbinije

DU Quinn Cook
DU Marshall Plumlee
DU Alex Murphy
MD Nick Faust
GT Julian Royal

VT C J Barksdale
FS Aaron Thomas
CL Bernard Sullivan
FS Antwan Space
VT Marquis Rankin

VT Robert Brown
VA Malcolm Brogdon

So Duke (5), VA Tech (4), UNC (2) and FSU (2) the 4 teams with veteran ACC coaches get richer, while MD, GA T, CL and UVA get one four star recruit and Miami, State, Wake and BC get none.

As discussed in prior threads, I think Alex Murphy may be the sleeper in this group and is very underrated after his change in graduating class.

CDu
08-09-2011, 12:23 PM
The scary part about UNC is they have a very talented player from each of the last three recruiting classes at their weakest starting position. I wouldn't be surprised if Bullock and/or Strickland had big years (not enough room for huge scoring numbers, but a solid option at that position would make them scarier.) It will make things even sweeter if/when Duke beats that talented roster.

Yeah, the sleeping dog combo of Strickland/Bullock/Hairston at the 2 makes me nervous considering how good they'll be at the other spots. Though I do wonder if Bullock and Hairston ultimately provide lesser versions of what Barnes provides (perimeter shooting, minimal ballhandling). If so, they may still be very reliant on Marshall to create the offense (or they'll settle for jumpers). But that's nitpicking on the margins of what appears to be a very very good team.

Luckily, we only have to be better than them on a particular night (or three or four) - not over the course of the entire season.

NSDukeFan
08-09-2011, 12:33 PM
Yeah, the sleeping dog combo of Strickland/Bullock/Hairston at the 2 makes me nervous considering how good they'll be at the other spots. Though I do wonder if Bullock and Hairston ultimately provide lesser versions of what Barnes provides (perimeter shooting, minimal ballhandling). If so, they may still be very reliant on Marshall to create the offense (or they'll settle for jumpers). But that's nitpicking on the margins of what appears to be a very very good team.

Luckily, we only have to be better than them on a particular night (or three or four) - not over the course of the entire season.

They don't necessarily need Marshall to create offense if Henson and/or Zeller can pass out of the post when they don't have good opportunities due to double teams. I also expect Barnes (and maybe Strickland) to be more aggressive taking the ball to the basket this year. I agree Duke will only have to be better than them 2 to 4 times next year.

oldnavy
08-09-2011, 01:55 PM
Count me in on the wait and see side with McAdoo. I try to follow recruits closely, but I have not seen any of them play a meaningful game. That includes Rivers, P.J.Hairston,etc....

I don't know how we can make informed opinions without seeing them. I trust my eyes, because I've seen too many playersr come into the league, like John Henson, who were clearly not ready to contribute right away as all the recruiting sites said.

Amen. Same goes with "teams". You have to see how a team gels before crowning them as well. Every program has had teams that on paper were more impressive than on the court.

bdevil94
08-09-2011, 02:40 PM
IMO, what is missing from these equations is what left the teams in June of 2011. For Duke we lost Singler and Smith and that was a lot of points that will now go to remaining players. UNC will return, essentially, all of its scoring from last year so there are fewer "new" points to spread around. This results in the Duke players having lower performance numbers.

I think we may be undervaluing our players.

Ditto this statement. You're comparing some of our guys off the bench stat vs. other team starter stats.

gumbomoop
08-09-2011, 09:41 PM
.... meaningful game.... I don't know how we can make informed opinions without seeing them. I trust my eyes....

I trust your eyes, too. Also, my eyes. As in, I saw McAdoo play twice, McDonald's and Jordan A-S games. Arguably, neither was meaningful; I concede that.

But as a result of watching these games, I have formed some preliminary opinions about McAdoo, and others, too. I have a positive opinion about Khem Birch (Pitt), Tony Wroten (UW), Michael Gbinije (solid all over the court, not dominating, but contributing, multi-ways -- I saw this), Anthony Davis (UK, wow), Bradley Beal (real deal), Marshall Plumlee (not top 20, marginally McD AA, but he has talent, for future years -- I think I saw something there, not as certain as I am about McAdoo and others).

I could go on down these AA A-S lists. Granted a couple of A-S games do not a great player make. The evidence my eyes have seen is limited. At what point is the eye-test quantitatively sufficient to constitute an "informed opinion"? I saw stuff; actually that's why I watched the games. [What the hell were you nutters doing?] In McAdoo's case, I saw many "little" things that I judge to be not little, mostly, I guess, because of their "many-ness."

I hope he's pathetically lousy, Wears-like-only-decent, Drew II-like-head-case, IC-hate-bait, and transfers to UCLA. I will celebrate my poor vision. GTHC.

Wheat/"/"/"
08-10-2011, 12:30 AM
I trust your eyes, too. Also, my eyes. As in, I saw McAdoo play twice, McDonald's and Jordan A-S games. Arguably, neither was meaningful; I concede that.

But as a result of watching these games, I have formed some preliminary opinions about McAdoo, and others, too. I have a positive opinion about Khem Birch (Pitt), Tony Wroten (UW), Michael Gbinije (solid all over the court, not dominating, but contributing, multi-ways -- I saw this), Anthony Davis (UK, wow), Bradley Beal (real deal), Marshall Plumlee (not top 20, marginally McD AA, but he has talent, for future years -- I think I saw something there, not as certain as I am about McAdoo and others).

I could go on down these AA A-S lists. Granted a couple of A-S games do not a great player make. The evidence my eyes have seen is limited. At what point is the eye-test quantitatively sufficient to constitute an "informed opinion"? I saw stuff; actually that's why I watched the games. [What the hell were you nutters doing?] In McAdoo's case, I saw many "little" things that I judge to be not little, mostly, I guess, because of their "many-ness."

I hope he's pathetically lousy, Wears-like-only-decent, Drew II-like-head-case, IC-hate-bait, and transfers to UCLA. I will celebrate my poor vision. GTHC.

My apologies for setting you off. I was not really directing my comment specifically at you, but I can see looking back on it how you took it that way. I don't challenge your evaluations, they seem pretty much right on from the little I've seen of those players. Davis was a wow guy, for example.

I saw those all star games too, and their raw talent was obvious, as you mentioned. My point is before we can go too far down the road judging playing time and impact of freshmen we generally need to see them in game situations. Once the season starts and we get to see how their games translate to college level defense, and how they mesh with their teammates, then the picture will be much more in focus. It will probably be 8-10 games in before i'll be comfortable offering a good read on how much they will contribute this season.

Some will adjust pretty darn quick, some won't. McAdoo looked very composed and confident, and showed no real weakness, he very well could be a big impact player, just as you are predictiing.

Again, my apologies not expressing my thoughts more clearly.

sagegrouse
08-10-2011, 12:35 AM
I believe the most underrated players in college basketball are talented sophomores who played relatively little as freshmen. The lazy man's way to pick an All-ACC or A-A team is to look at the stats from returning players and the hype for entering freshmen. No one seems to want to do the hard work of rating sophs (or juniors) suddenly blessed with playing time.

sagegrouse

NSDukeFan
08-10-2011, 08:28 AM
I believe the most underrated players in college basketball are talented sophomores who played relatively little as freshmen. The lazy man's way to pick an All-ACC or A-A team is to look at the stats from returning players and the hype for entering freshmen. No one seems to want to do the hard work of rating sophs (or juniors) suddenly blessed with playing time.

sagegrouse

Unfortunately, you found me out, at least for the most part, especially with the other ACC teams.

gumbomoop
08-10-2011, 09:38 AM
My apologies for setting you off.... Again, my apologies not expressing my thoughts more clearly.

Is there no end to your torturing me?

1. No fair apologizing twice. Especially since .... see below, #5.
2. I am suspicious that you might be a Heels fan. I may even have seen photographic evidence, although what with Photoshop and all, I'm thinking devildeac is up to something.... My advice to you, if indeed you, Wheat, are a real person at all, is to beware Duke fanatics who appear friendly. Anyone who reads DBR and EK should know we are haters, pure and simple.
3. Worse, a reasonable Heels fan. You should be ashamed, doubly so.
4. I bet you think Roy is not an idiot. Triply so.
5. Main reason the apology is unnecessary is that I was merely using your eye-test statement as a convenient jumping off point for a rant against all you McAdoo-skeptics. In which rant, I was able to use one of my favorite words, "nutters," referring, naturally, to those who seem not to agree with me.


I believe the most underrated players in college basketball are talented sophomores who played relatively little as freshmen.... No one seems to want to do the hard work of rating sophs (or juniors) suddenly blessed with playing time.

Now, sagegrouse makes a real good point here. But see, this also applies to James Michael McAdoo, who, remember, toyed with the idea of coming to CH a year early. This means - isn't this obvious? - that McAdoo, who "played relatively little as a freshman," is, essentially, a sophomore "suddenly blessed with playing time"? If you're with me so far [you're a nutter], you will see that the purpose of sagegrouse's post was to say [with remarkable cleverness reminiscent of a weird combo of P.G. Wodehouse, Loudon Wainwright III, and Sarah Silverman], "McAdoo will be great."

The defense rests.

Wheat/"/"/"
08-10-2011, 10:08 AM
(1) Is there no end to your torturing me?

(2) The defense rests.


(1) It's what good Heel fans do.

(2) Thankfully, my head hurts :)

devildeac
08-10-2011, 11:09 AM
Is there no end to your torturing me?

1. No fair apologizing twice. Especially since .... see below, #5.
2. I am suspicious that you might be a Heels fan. I may even have seen photographic evidence, although what with Photoshop and all, I'm thinking devildeac is up to something.... My advice to you, if indeed you, Wheat, are a real person at all, is to beware Duke fanatics who appear friendly. Anyone who reads DBR and EK should know we are haters, pure and simple.
3. Worse, a reasonable Heels fan. You should be ashamed, doubly so.
4. I bet you think Roy is not an idiot. Triply so.
5. Main reason the apology is unnecessary is that I was merely using your eye-test statement as a convenient jumping off point for a rant against all you McAdoo-skeptics. In which rant, I was able to use one of my favorite words, "nutters," referring, naturally, to those who seem not to agree with me.



Now, sagegrouse makes a real good point here. But see, this also applies to James Michael McAdoo, who, remember, toyed with the idea of coming to CH a year early. This means - isn't this obvious? - that McAdoo, who "played relatively little as a freshman," is, essentially, a sophomore "suddenly blessed with playing time"? If you're with me so far [you're a nutter], you will see that the purpose of sagegrouse's post was to say [with remarkable cleverness reminiscent of a weird combo of P.G. Wodehouse, Loudon Wainwright III, and Sarah Silverman], "McAdoo will be great."

The defense rests.

OK, you have invoked me so I feel slightly obligated to put down my small, underinflated basketball, leave the side/ancillary court and step into the fray with the big boys here. Briefly.

Wheat is indeed a real person. Real what I am not quite sure yet (jk, ol' buddy;)). Bought me a Diet Mt. Dew just before that non-Photshopped picture was taken during his recent visit to Raleigh with real money, too. (Dang, now I owe him one.) Knows his hoops, used to have "hops" (not the brewed variety either:p) and loves to yank our chains just a bit, just as we can return the favors:p. After all, we got numbers on him here.

Now, to get back on topic. I'd put Marshall, PJ, Harry, Henson and Zeller all on 1st team All-ACC. Heck, I'd put them all on 1st team All-American for that matter. Let 'em live up to the hype. That way, my peanut/butter M&Ms will be that much sweeter and my hand-crafted ales all the more richer and tastier if/when (I am not a woofer. Nor am I a "tweeter." Dual meaning/pun is an intentional yet another feeble attempt at humor.) we take them down in the 2011/12 season.

I am weezing now after so much typing, plus my chest is hurting and my legs are cramping so I'm gonna go back to the senior games and spectate here again for a while.

sagegrouse
08-10-2011, 01:57 PM
Now, sagegrouse makes a real good point here. But see, this also applies to James Michael McAdoo, who, remember, toyed with the idea of coming to CH a year early. This means - isn't this obvious? - that McAdoo, who "played relatively little as a freshman," is, essentially, a sophomore "suddenly blessed with playing time"? If you're with me so far [you're a nutter], you will see that the purpose of sagegrouse's post was to say [with remarkable cleverness reminiscent of a weird combo of P.G. Wodehouse, Loudon Wainwright III, and Sarah Silverman], "McAdoo will be great."

The defense rests.

After I posted, I wondered what the message meant, and your analysis is as good as any. -- sagegrouse

davekay1971
08-10-2011, 02:44 PM
Wheat is indeed a real person. .

How do you know? I spun my top just before I logged onto DBR and it's STILL SPINNING!

gumbomoop
08-11-2011, 07:45 PM
Per Jderf's Law, all threads ultimately become Duke v. Carolina. Here's a semi-serious question, to which I have a guess, but not really a confident answer.

From this list, who are the 5 most skilled ball handlers?


PJ Hairston
Andre Dawkins
Kendall Marshall
Dexter Strickland
Seth Curry
Reggie Bullock
Austin Rivers
Quinn Cook
Harrison Barnes
Alex Murphy
Tyler Thornton

roywhite
08-11-2011, 09:00 PM
On rating the ball handlers:

Marshall
Curry
Rivers
Cook

final spot---close between Strickland and Thornton

Murphy ahead of Barnes, I think.

CDu
08-11-2011, 09:32 PM
Per Jderf's Law, all threads ultimately become Duke v. Carolina. Here's a semi-serious question, to which I have a guess, but not really a confident answer.

From this list, who are the 5 most skilled ball handlers?


PJ Hairston
Andre Dawkins
Kendall Marshall
Dexter Strickland
Seth Curry
Reggie Bullock
Austin Rivers
Quinn Cook
Harrison Barnes
Alex Murphy
Tyler Thornton


I won't venture an absolute order, but I'll put them in groups in terms of ballhandling:

Really good: Marshall/Rivers

Pretty Solid: Strickland/Curry/Cook(?)

Solid: Thornton

Catch-and-shoot: Dawkins/Barnes/Bullock/Hairston(?)

Solid for a forward but not for a guard: Murphy(?)

The question marks indicate I haven't seen enough of them to have a good idea.

Newton_14
08-11-2011, 09:50 PM
I won't venture an absolute order, but I'll put them in groups in terms of ballhandling:

Really good: Marshall/Rivers

Pretty Solid: Strickland/Curry/Cook(?)

Solid: Thornton

Catch-and-shoot: Dawkins/Barnes/Bullock/Hairston(?)

Solid for a forward but not for a guard: Murphy(?)

The question marks indicate I haven't seen enough of them to have a good idea.

I would only make 2 changes. I would push Cook up to the really good category, and actually move Murphy up two spots to solid. Kid has a really good handle. Agree on all the rest.

jimrowe0
08-12-2011, 07:58 AM
I would only make 2 changes. I would push Cook up to the really good category, and actually move Murphy up two spots to solid. Kid has a really good handle. Agree on all the rest.

I agree on both of those. I would however move Hairston up one spot to solid.

CDu
08-12-2011, 09:39 AM
I agree on both of those. I would however move Hairston up one spot to solid.

You and NS could be absolutely correct about Cook, Murphy, and Hairston. I haven't seen enough of either of those guys' ballhandling skills to know. It could also be a difference in semantics in terms of how you're defining the categories.

That said, I'd be pretty surprised if Hairston and Murphy were as solid ballhandlers as Thornton. From his scouting profiles, ballhandling appears to not be a strength of Hairston's. His profile (and the one game I've seen from him) just seem to scream catch-and-shoot or catch-and-finish player. And while Murphy may be a very good ballhandler for a forward, I'd be really surprised if he (or any 6'8" forward) was in a similar category as a PG in terms of ballhandling. That skill level is typically the domain of a very short list of players. Hopefully Hairston proves me right and Murphy proves me wrong!

devildeac
08-12-2011, 10:05 AM
You and NS could be absolutely correct about Cook, Murphy, and Hairston. I haven't seen enough of either of those guys' ballhandling skills to know. It could also be a difference in semantics in terms of how you're defining the categories.

That said, I'd be pretty surprised if Hairston and Murphy were as solid ballhandlers as Thornton. From his scouting profiles, ballhandling appears to not be a strength of Hairston's. His profile (and the one game I've seen from him) just seem to scream catch-and-shoot or catch-and-finish player. And while Murphy may be a very good ballhandler for a forward, I'd be really surprised if he (or any 6'8" forward) was in a similar category as a PG in terms of ballhandling. That skill level is typically the domain of a very short list of players. Hopefully Hairston proves me right and Murphy proves me wrong!

I hope PJ Hairston proves you wrong and doesn't catch and shoot as well as advertised either;).

CDu
08-12-2011, 10:16 AM
I hope PJ Hairston proves you wrong and doesn't catch and shoot as well as advertised either;).

Touche. Touche. I second that hope. I won't mind being wrong on all counts in that scenario.

ACCBBallFan
08-12-2011, 11:00 AM
From a ball handling perspective, label these three groupings any way you want but there is clear separation:

1. Kendall Marshall, Ausitn Rivers and Quinn Cook

2. Tyler Thornton, Seth Curry and Dexter Strickland

3. P J Hairston, Harrison Barnes, Dre Dawkins, Reggie Bullock, Alex Murphy and Mike Gbinije.

So in terms of top 5 question, Duke has 4 of the top 6 ball handlers, and Leslie McDonald being injured would not affect top 3, if even top 6.

Be that is it may, Seth is Duke's PG and Austin leverages his outstanding handle form the wing.

SupaDave
08-12-2011, 11:10 AM
I hope PJ Hairston proves you wrong and doesn't catch and shoot as well as advertised either;).

A quick note on PJ. I observed him during the Pro-Am look off JOHN WALL on more than one occasion and then threw up a really ridiculous shot. I promise you haven't seen the last of this. He's a baller but mentally he's always been THE man - and well there's a guy on the team that is "that dude". I'm just saying...

CDu
08-12-2011, 12:40 PM
From a ball handling perspective, label these three groupings any way you want but there is clear separation:

1. Kendall Marshall, Ausitn Rivers and Quinn Cook

2. Tyler Thornton, Seth Curry and Dexter Strickland

3. P J Hairston, Harrison Barnes, Dre Dawkins, Reggie Bullock, Alex Murphy and Mike Gbinije.

So in terms of top 5 question, Duke has 4 of the top 6 ball handlers, and Leslie McDonald being injured would not affect top 3, if even top 6.

Be that is it may, Seth is Duke's PG and Austin leverages his outstanding handle form the wing.

That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect, with the only question for me being Cook (and that's only because I haven't really seen him play at all). I'd have put McDonald in the third group.

Of course, UNC doesn't need Bullock/Hairston/Barnes to be great ballhandlers. They just need them to hit shots, finish at the rim, and play defense. Similarly, Duke probably won't need Dawkins/Murphy/Gbinije to be great ballhandlers either.