Butch Davis fired, Baddour out too

[Devilsfan]

Just heard the terrible news. Thank goodness they waited until August.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9917515/

Could be! So says the teaser on WRAL. More details on the 6:00 news.

[Class of '94]

Link I just found thanks to OZZIE:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9917515/

I wonder if UNC is taking their cues from Ohio State by finally deciding to fire Davis in hopes of getting lesser penalties from the NCAA.

[Jderf]

Pretty surprising. From the tone of the people on the board who appeared to follow the scandal the closest, it seemed to me as if Butch had iron-clad job security. But I guess UNC finally got around to doing the inevitable, although lord knows they have a tendency to drag their heels.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I don't thnk they'll do a damn thing other than say what a great guy Butchy is,
would make no sense to take any action now after all these months. Not only have they waited too long, but to pull the trigger and do such an about face so close to the start of practice makes little sense.
But then again, IF they do send him packing, I don't think the team will be affected too much, since BD apparently didn't know what anybody was doing anyways. ;)

[OldPhiKap]

The linked article merely said that his situation was being discussed. "In jeopardy" is conjecture from the author.

I'd like to see them do the right thing here, but am not holding my breath.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Well maybe I am totally wrong. Per IC and Greg Barnes...


Posted: Today 4:39 PM
BUTCH DAVIS FIRED PER SOURCE** A source has confirmed to IC that Butch Davis has been fired and the players have been notified of the decision.

A UNC official would not confirm or deny the rumor that Butch Davis has been fired as UNC's head football coach, but did provide the following statement:

"The chancellor met with the Board of Trustees today to discuss the future of the football program."

[Gewebe14]

Check the link now: just updated

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9917515/

[oldnavy]

It is the right thing to do. I just wonder how all the folks that were spinning it to keep Davis will now spin it to say that UNC did the right thing, because we all know that a UNC fan is never wrong!

[Duvall]

UNC statement (http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/072711aad.html).

[CameronBornAndBred]

“To restore confidence in the University of North Carolina and our football program, it’s time to make a change,” said UNC Chancellor Holden Thorp. “What started as a purely athletic issue has begun to chip away at this University’s reputation."

Umm, no. It started as unc athletes CHEATING ACADEMICALLY!! But ok, whatever.

[davekay1971]

One wonders whether the stiffness of the Ga Tech sanctions, over a relatively minor infraction, had anything to do with UNC's decision to attempt to cut their losses by letting Butch go. It certainly had nothing to do with, as Holden Thorp tried to claim, the situation beginning to affect UNC's reputation as a whole. Were that the issue, Butch would have been fired long, long ago.

At any rate, NC State fans are saddened today. Now UNC might actually hire a coach who can beat State!

[Rogue]

Is Dickie next ??

The Alum liked Butch better than Dickie lol.. :cool:

[devildeac]

Certainly is one way to retain the recruits who showed up on campus for any summer sessions or for the fall practices about to start.

[devildeac]

Never too early/late to recycle this one:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation


Guess the unc trustees finally watched this video and took it seriously.:D

[hudlow]

I told you so.

hud

[-bdbd]

One wonders whether the stiffness of the Ga Tech sanctions, over a relatively minor infraction, had anything to do with UNC's decision to attempt to cut their losses by letting Butch go. It certainly had nothing to do with, as Holden Thorp tried to claim, the situation beginning to affect UNC's reputation as a whole. Were that the issue, Butch would have been fired long, long ago.

At any rate, NC State fans are saddened today. Now UNC might actually hire a coach who can beat State!


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/07/north-carolina-fires-football-coach-butch-davis/1?csp=25&kjnd=NJBMq8JhajrxJNS99S644CimzzVfkYPG0fztB8SplNH6r %2FYwVly1f%2BxmP3gmSqF%2F-7249d150-1e48-42ca-980a-9670685fb180_1k0h9egJZ2sb1y94aVZTFmoCVKKY3WwxD%2BU DOjF8mhwNqT9gI4N6IT1N%2FWfVB9mw

Where's Kong when you need him???

So, what does this mean for the recruits who were to be Freshmen this Fall? Are they able to bail and go to a school that still has a circumstance similar to what they sold to recruits? Or did NC wait too long, since most are in summer School there already, and they are screwed? It'll be interesting to see how many go. Obviously some implications for recruits currently being recruited from HS seniors 2012. Were there any we were finalists for? It will be next-to-impossible to fill this vacancy quickly at this time of year (with anything but a short-term solution). How much of the staff stays?

In all seriousness, I had been just stunned how long the school allowed this to drag on, but let's hope they're returning to their purported "values..."
One has to hope that it was prolonged consideration, and not just the fear put into them by the NCAA adjudicating Ga Tech and OSU.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Faustus]

"BEGUN to chip away at the university's reputation?" Um, if they'd fired Butch LAST summer that might have had some credence. Now, it's just the hollow sounds of rats scampering off a rapidly sinking ship with the rotting stench of Major Sanctions blowing in. Far, far too late to be convincing. Would love to know what tipped the balance between today and the football coaches' media day... mere hours before.

[Newton_14]

Right move, but at the worst possible time.

2nd, it appears that the negative attention on UNC at the Football Kickoff in Pinehurst this week (Most of the questions were about the scandal, rather than football) was factor one. Factor 2 was this. There was a new Board of Trustee's sworn in on July 1st. (Members serve 4 years and rotate off on July 1st in odd-numbered years). They even swore in new leaders and today was the first meeting for the new board. Apparrently they had an agenda.

No way they should have allowed Butch to go to Pinehurst this week then fire him two days later if this was already in the works. Me thinks Holden Thorpe took a beating in front of the trustee's today...

UNC has just destroyed this football season which is just plain awesome!!

[sagegrouse]

Right move, but at the worst possible time.

2nd, it appears that the negative attention on UNC at the Football Kickoff in Pinehurst this week (Most of the questions were about the scandal, rather than football) was factor one. Factor 2 was this. There was a new Board of Trustee's sworn in on July 1st. (Members serve 4 years and rotate off on July 1st in odd-numbered years). They even swore in new leaders and today was the first meeting for the new board. Apparrently they had an agenda.

No way they should have allowed Butch to go to Pinehurst this week then fire him two days later if this was already in the works.

UNC has just destroyed this football season which is just plain awesome!!

Good move by UNC. The crescendo of compaints, accusations, wrongdoings was growing. We'll see, but I believe this changes the subject totally. The story of UNC football will now be (a) who coaches the team this year, (b) what is the nature of the contracts with the new coaches, and (c) can the football team recover from the confusion and have a good season. The offending coaches will be gone; the offending players are mostly gone; the offending tutor is long gone!

UNC gets to say [heh-heh-snicker] that "a page has been turned," "we have cleaned house," and "the academic virtue of Chapel Hill has been restored."

WRT the timing: the Trustees meeting was long scheduled; the timing of the ACC football kickoff last weekend was one of those things that just happens.

I am surprised from the story that UNC may only owe Butch $3-4 million. Sounds like there was (a) no automatic renewal or (b) a lot of incentives or added benefits (radio and TV), which are never part of a buyout.

sagegrouse

[SCMatt33]

So, what does this mean for the recruits who were to be Freshmen this Fall? Are they able to bail and go to a school that still has a circumstance similar to what they sold to recruits? Or did NC wait too long, since most are in summer School there already, and they are screwed? It'll be interesting to see how many go. Obviously some implications for recruits currently being recruited from HS seniors 2012. Were there any we were finalists for? It will be next-to-impossible to fill this vacancy quickly at this time of year (with anything but a short-term solution). How much of the staff stays?

In all seriousness, I had been just stunned how long the school allowed this to drag on, but let's hope they're returning to their purported "values..."
One has to hope that it was prolonged consideration, and not just the fear put into them by the NCAA adjudicating Ga Tech and OSU.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I am absolutely stunned by the timing as well. As for the Freshman, don't quote me on this, but I believe that once they enrolled and started taking classes (even summer classes) they would have to transfer and wait a year to play. It's possible that some waited to start until the fall, and I believe that those freshman could enroll somewhere else and play so long as the school grants them a release. I would highly doubt that many will though, as I don't know who would take on new players for this season without red-shirting this late in the game. If I'm completely wrong about the freshman situation, someone please correct me (or confirm this) as I want to know for sure as well.

As far as timing goes, this completely baffles me. There are going to be players who want to leave and its getting late to transfer and be eligible for 2012. This is the absolute worst timing for incoming freshman. I would also imagine that they will have to use an interim head coach now as I can't possibly imagine someone new being willing to take the job (I haven't read up on it yet so this may have happened, but this is just my gut reaction to reading the headline). There is a reason all of the media types said that once he survived the initial wave last year, that he was going to hang on until the NCAA announced final penalties. Those are the only two times that make sense, as initially, you can still bring in someone new to show the NCAA that the school is serious about changing direction, and once it's done with, you can hire someone without them having to worry about the NCAA hanging over their head. Now you seem to get the worst of both worlds. I have to imagine that something significant has happened very recently to change the picture as I have never heard of someone being fired this close to the season.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I am absolutely stunned by the timing as well. As for the Freshman, don't quote me on this, but I believe that once they enrolled and started taking classes (even summer classes) they would have to transfer and wait a year to play. It's possible that some waited to start until the fall, and I believe that those freshman could enroll somewhere else and play so long as the school grants them a release. I would highly doubt that many will though, as I don't know who would take on new players for this season without red-shirting this late in the game. If I'm completely wrong about the freshman situation, someone please correct me (or confirm this) as I want to know for sure as well.

As far as timing goes, this completely baffles me. There are going to be players who want to leave and its getting late to transfer and be eligible for 2012. This is the absolute worst timing for incoming freshman. I would also imagine that they will have to use an interim head coach now as I can't possibly imagine someone new being willing to take the job (I haven't read up on it yet so this may have happened, but this is just my gut reaction to reading the headline). There is a reason all of the media types said that once he survived the initial wave last year, that he was going to hang on until the NCAA announced final penalties. Those are the only two times that make sense, as initially, you can still bring in someone new to show the NCAA that the school is serious about changing direction, and once it's done with, you can hire someone without them having to worry about the NCAA hanging over their head. Now you seem to get the worst of both worlds. I have to imagine that something significant has happened very recently to change the picture as I have never heard of someone being fired this close to the season.

I believe you are correct about enrolling being a key factor in determining eligibility for next season. Think back to the way Lane Kiffin left Knoxville and the recruits began to jump ship. Some of the most interesting reading back then related to Ed Orgeron's role in the timing and manner of some of those exits.

[ncexnyc]

We had 19 pages calling for Butch's head and lamenting the end of the, "Carolina Way." Well Butch got axed and now several members are questioning UNC's motives. How about we applaud their new Board for doing the right thing and leave it at that.

[Newton_14]

We had 19 pages calling for Butch's head and lamenting the end of the, "Carolina Way." Well Butch got axed and now several members are questioning UNC's motives. How about we applaud their new Board for doing the right thing and leave it at that.

I don't question the motives at all. He should have been fired long ago. I just question the timing. This close to the season? But yes I do applaud the new board for firing him.

[OldPhiKap]

Chanellor Thorpe:

"What started as a purely athletic issue has begun to chip away at this University's reputation. I have been deliberate in my approach to understanding this situation fully, and I have worked to be fair to everyone involved.

"However, I have lost confidence in our ability to come through this without harming the way people think of this institution. Our academic integrity is paramount and we must work diligently to protect it. The only way to move forward and put this behind us is to make a change."


Exactly what a lot of us have said for months. I would like to think he is sincere in giving this reason.

[SCMatt33]

We had 19 pages calling for Butch's head and lamenting the end of the, "Carolina Way." Well Butch got axed and now several members are questioning UNC's motives. How about we applaud their new Board for doing the right thing and leave it at that.

I haven't thouroughly read all of the posts so I don't know the general feeling of this thread, but I certainly think that they have finally done the right thing here. The timing is SO baffling from a football standpoint that I think it sends a clear message (and one that I'm sure they were deliberately trying to send) that UNC as a university doesn't care enough about football to compromise the university itself. When it was just a football thing with a small cheating part, they could deal with it, but things like the McAdoo suit brought it over way too much to the academic side and the damage that was being done to the University was too much. Now you could argue that they should have done this sooner, but I think that a really thorough investigation was necessary and prudent for two reasons. First, if they are firing him with cause, they have to insure that they can defend the cause. Second, it clearly shows that the university was in no way rushing to conclusions or doing this just to try and salvage the immediate future of the football team.

That being said, there are a few people who get screwed, namely the incoming freshman who have already enrolled and weren't given a fair chance to decide what was best for them before enrolling. That being said, somebody was going to get screwed by this, but you can't compromise the thouroughness of investigation for the sake of 20-25 people. They could have told them quietly that this was possible (and we don't know for sure that they didn't), but I imagine that it would be hard to get word to just those guys without word of Davis' situation becoming public or at least spread around the football team. Depending on how the University handles this season and the hiring of their next permanent head coach, we will know for sure how much this was about doing the right thing or if (I hope and suspect that this is NOT the case) that they simply came to the conclusion that they couldn't get Davis through all of this wiithout significant damage to the success of the football team.

[OldPhiKap]

P.S. Hey, Butch . . . . SEE 'YA!!!!!

[cspan37421]

Chanellor Thorpe:

"What started as a purely athletic issue has begun to chip away at this University's reputation. I have been deliberate in my approach to understanding this situation fully, and I have worked to be fair to everyone involved.

"However, I have lost confidence in our ability to come through this without harming the way people think of this institution. Our academic integrity is paramount and we must work diligently to protect it. The only way to move forward and put this behind us is to make a change."




I believe it was just yesterday I suggested that, in light of their attitude regarding their own program's NCAA violations, we should really not consider them a public ivy anymore. Perhaps Chancellor Thorpe reads DBR? :rolleyes:

[Verga3]

Chanellor Thorpe:

"What started as a purely athletic issue has begun to chip away at this University's reputation. I have been deliberate in my approach to understanding this situation fully, and I have worked to be fair to everyone involved.

"However, I have lost confidence in our ability to come through this without harming the way people think of this institution. Our academic integrity is paramount and we must work diligently to protect it. The only way to move forward and put this behind us is to make a change."


Exactly what a lot of us have said for months. I would like to think he is sincere in giving this reason.

I think Chancellor Thorp was sincere, after the Trustees report was given. He has seemed to be pretty invested in seeing "the process" through before today. Good for the Trustees. A little too late for me, but congrats on a needed first step. UNC's institutional reputation does not deserve to be dragged slowly through the swamp by blind or impotent leaders...Let's just hope more UNC actions are taken to mitigate what will surely be very ugly sanctions by the NCAA.

[cspan37421]

I think Chancellor Thorp was sincere, after the Trustees report was given. He has seemed to be pretty invested in seeing "the process" through before today. Good for the Trustees. A little too late for me, but congrats on a needed first step. UNC's institutional reputation does not deserve to be dragged slowly through the swamp by blind or impotent leaders...Let's just hope more UNC actions are taken to mitigate what will surely be very ugly sanctions by the NCAA.

See, for me, their reputation is already damaged. That's what the last year was about. With respect to their reputation, they're in the rebuilding stage now, not the maintaining stage.

[Mike Corey]

dUNCe should go after Tressel...

;)

[uh_no]

See, for me, their reputation is already damaged. That's what the last year was about. With respect to their reputation, they're in the rebuilding stage now, not the maintaining stage.

Arguments about the usefulness of college rankings aside, UNC's has not changed because of this affair, so it would appear that their reputation has only really been damaged for you, and not so much in the eyes of the general populace. Outside of pockets of duke and state fans, frankly, most people don't care.

[-jk]

Arguments about the usefulness of college rankings aside, UNC's has not changed because of this affair, so it would appear that their reputation has only really been damaged for you, and not so much in the eyes of the general populace. Outside of pockets of duke and state fans, frankly, most people don't care.

I think you're mistaken. The Trustees saw the UNC reputation being damaged by the continued employment of Davis and took the action they thought the most appropriate. If people didn't care, Davis would still be coaching.

-jk

[moonpie23]

i find it amazing how many people on here are saying that "unc is doing the right thing"......they should have "done the right thing" last year when it all broke....they've been twisting and turning and evading at EVERY situation trying their best to get out of it unscathed....They're not "doing the right thing".....they're doing the ONLY thing left....

and let's not feel to badly for young recruits that sign on to a team with this kind of mess all over it's face....

i am hoping that the ncaa will address the entire thing with a stern set of punishments...

[OZ]

Outside of pockets of duke and state fans, frankly, most people don't care.


I can't speak to how "most people feel," because I honestly have no way of knowing. What I do know is that where I live, work and play the noise from "the pockets of Duke and State fans" is no small thing.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Chanellor Thorpe:

"What started as a purely athletic issue has begun to chip away at this University's reputation. I have been deliberate in my approach to understanding this situation fully, and I have worked to be fair to everyone involved.

"However, I have lost confidence in our ability to come through this without harming the way people think of this institution. Our academic integrity is paramount and we must work diligently to protect it. The only way to move forward and put this behind us is to make a change."


Exactly what a lot of us have said for months. I would like to think he is sincere in giving this reason.
But it wasn't. This whole thing started as an academic scandal, that involved athletes. The agents and parking tickets were discovered later.

[SCMatt33]

i find it amazing how many people on here are saying that "unc is doing the right thing"......they should have "done the right thing" last year when it all broke....they've been twisting and turning and evading at EVERY situation trying their best to get out of it unscathed....They're not "doing the right thing".....they're doing the ONLY thing left....

and let's not feel to badly for young recruits that sign on to a team with this kind of mess all over it's face....

i am hoping that the ncaa will address the entire thing with a stern set of punishments...

I can't disagree more that they should have "done the right thing" last year, and waiting only means that they tried to hold out until they couldn't anymore. First, there is no reason to believe that they ran out of rope today if they were indeed trying to just hold on. This certainly isn't the only thing left. There is no reason they couldn't have held on until at least the point where NCAA penalties came down, and if they were light (any length of probation, no bowl ban, and 5 or less schollys lost per yer for some number of years), which is entirely possible, they could have kept him long term if they really wanted to. If they had fired him right away, before the investigation was finished, and the official allegations handed down, there was the possibility that he really would have been found to not have known (or should have known) anything about what Blake and Wiley did. Would that scenario have been likely, no, but again it would be possible. I really am glad that they took their time evaluating the situation. Too often today, people demand immediate satisfaction, and things get lost. UNC could easily have been afraid of a Mike Leach type lawsuit if they tried to fire him right away. There are plenty of cases where decisions were made too quickly and the wrong call has been made in the past. This wasn't like Ohio State where they caught Tressel with his hand in the cookie jar. There is no direct evidence against Davis so they had to take their time, if for no other reason than to be able to justify firing him with cause and saving a few million dollars.

As far as NCAA punishments go, this furthers my thoughts that they will be light compared to the allegations. Even before today, there was speculation that they would simply get vacated wins, a few schollys per year, and a long probation, but no bowl ban. UNC has gotten rid of the head coach, the main assistant involved, and there is no guarantee that the AD will still be there come October. They are doing a good job cleaning house which will be seen as a mitigating factor. It is also a big deal to the NCAA that UNC has no record of major violations over the last 50 years. If you look at the reports from NCAA cases on their website, they always begin by listing past infractions cases. The track record is a big deal to them and will help UNC here, but the first time offender (in recent years) card is one that they can only play once. They certainly need to tread lightly into the future or will risk a worse fate than what I suspect they will get here. I would certainly expect that after this year, they will hire someone who may not be a sexy name, but it will be someone who has never been close to any NCAA violations, even secondary ones. If they go and try to hire someone like a Rich Rod type, who has some NCAA past, it will signal that today wasn't really what it looked like, but we probably won't find that out for several months, so I will take the situation at face value until then.

[devildeac]

But it wasn't. This whole thing started as an academic scandal, that involved athletes. The agents and parking tickets were discovered later.

I am not so sure about this, CB&B. There are so many details to remember and so many that I have forgotten already (early CRS versus simply WAY to much to recall?), but I thought the waste material hit the rotating blades about Marvin Austin and his cronies taking various trips that were paid for by unc FB grads and/or agents and then all of John Blake's indiscretions/connections were revealed, too. Tutorgate came along fairly rapidly also, but I thought it was "improper benefits" first and then academic issues shortly thereafter. At this point, I really don't care much which came first, I just want them to continue to squirm and lurch awaiting the ncaa hammer/s to fall while lamenting the "carolina way." Schadenfreude near its best.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I am not so sure about this, CB&B. There are so many details to remember and so many that I have forgotten already (early CRS versus simply WAY to much to recall?), but I thought the waste material hit the rotating blades about Marvin Austin and his cronies taking various trips that were paid for by unc FB grads and/or agents and then all of John Blake's indiscretions/connections were revealed, too. Tutorgate came along fairly rapidly also, but I thought it was "improper benefits" first and then academic issues shortly thereafter. At this point, I really don't care much which came first, I just want them to continue to squirm and lurch awaiting the ncaa hammer/s to fall while lamenting the "carolina way." Schadenfreude near its best.

You may be right. If so, then the strategy of "taking forever and a day to address our problems" worked well on me, and so maybe it has worked well on the NCAA too. Either way, it was not a purely academic scandal as the chancellor would like to imply. Tutorgate has been around for a long time now.

[CameronBornAndBred]

You may be right. If so, then the strategy of "taking forever and a day to address our problems" worked well on me, and so maybe it has worked well on the NCAA too. Either way, it was not a purely academic scandal as the chancellor would like to imply. Tutorgate has been around for a long time now.
Grrrr...can't edit that..but obviously should be "purely athletic scandal". If I had a better tutor, I would have gotten it right the first time.

[uh_no]

I think you're mistaken. The Trustees saw the UNC reputation being damaged by the continued employment of Davis and took the action they thought the most appropriate. If people didn't care, Davis would still be coaching.

-jk

OH I agree. I don't know how often the trustees meet, but if it's anything like duke, its only a few times a year. That (assumedly) being the case, I don't think they were going to call a special meeting just to fire Butch. I think the trustees have a high vision of what the university needs to be academically, perhaps higher than what most people would have of it. If I didn't read this forum, I would honestly have very little idea about the academic accusations. I might have seen something about it a year ago, but it's really not mentioned too much. I think the message from the trustees is that whether or not there is an outrage, we will not stand for it. I feel that part of the delay in his firing is the lack of having UNC's version of the lacrosse case. THey didn't jump when there were vague initial allegations, but waited until facts had been sorted through. The argument that they were trying to 'save face' hardly seems to hold water with me. If that were the case, they would have fired him when public opinion was strongly against him, which would have been previously. I just think this was the first the trustees met when they were sure that Butch was not worthy of upholding the standards of UNC. I applaud the trustees for taking time to collect thoughts and not act rashly, such restraint would have saved Mike Pressler's job. No, its not a perfect analogy, but it serves to illustrate some of the point I'm trying to make.

I guess the summary is that the trustees hold the universities academic reputation to a higher standard than your average Joe might, and their actions reflect that standard instead of concern that the populace's valuation of UNC's academic quality is dropping.

[devildeac]

Grrrr...can't edit that..but obviously should be "purely athletic scandal". If I had a better tutor, I would have gotten it right the first time.

And, if you had a better tutor, it would have been 39% plagiarized and you would have lost your posting, err, academic eligibility, too:rolleyes:.

[roywhite]

I guess the summary is that the trustees hold the universities academic reputation to a higher standard than your average Joe might, and their actions reflect that standard instead of concern that the populace's valuation of UNC's academic quality is dropping.

I don't think today's actions would have happened were it not for rising public sentiment against the UNC football program's offenses and dis-satisfaction about the response of the University to this point. From an anecdotal standpoint from my contacts with business people in the Triad and Triangle, there was more and more talk about the UNC scandal. There were an increasing number of newspaper columns, even in Charlotte and Raleigh, traditionally light blue-friendly media centers, critical of UNC's response to these problems. More radio hosts have been speaking out and even ridiculing the UNC administration.

It may have been an act of conscience for the trustees and chancellor, but it also involved public opinion.

[devildeac]

OH I agree. I don't know how often the trustees meet, but if it's anything like duke, its only a few times a year. That (assumedly) being the case, I don't think they were going to call a special meeting just to fire Butch. I think the trustees have a high vision of what the university needs to be academically, perhaps higher than what most people would have of it. If I didn't read this forum, I would honestly have very little idea about the academic accusations. I might have seen something about it a year ago, but it's really not mentioned too much. I think the message from the trustees is that whether or not there is an outrage, we will not stand for it. I feel that part of the delay in his firing is the lack of having UNC's version of the lacrosse case. THey didn't jump when there were vague initial allegations, but waited until facts had been sorted through. The argument that they were trying to 'save face' hardly seems to hold water with me. If that were the case, they would have fired him when public opinion was strongly against him, which would have been previously. I just think this was the first the trustees met when they were sure that Butch was not worthy of upholding the standards of UNC. I applaud the trustees for taking time to collect thoughts and not act rashly, such restraint would have saved Mike Pressler's job. No, its not a perfect analogy, but it serves to illustrate some of the point I'm trying to make.

I guess the summary is that the trustees hold the universities academic reputation to a higher standard than your average Joe might, and their actions reflect that standard instead of concern that the populace's valuation of UNC's academic quality is dropping.

I read somewhere else also that there were a number of trustees newly elected early in July with others obviously rotating off the board. This allowed the "new" board to continue prior investigations and then act on them now, whether it was that they had all their data/conclusions and/or, they were running out of options and Butch just had to go now, both for athletic/academic integrity issues and for NCAA self-policing and "appearance" issues. (for lack of better terms and ability to express myself as clearly as I think I should:o.)

[devildeac]

dUNCe should go after Tressel...

;)

I mentioned that on another board and someone else suggested Mike Leach, too:rolleyes:;).

[CameronBornAndBred]

There are two reactions to North Carolina's firing of Butch Davis on Wednesday.
It's about time.

But it's also about timing.
And the timing makes a whole lot less sense than the termination itself.
This could have and should have happened much earlier. North Carolina had a dozen compelling and reasonable occasions in its miserable, scandal-scarred past year to fire Davis, and it declined to do so. A partial list of opportunities:


The "partial list" is not a short one. ;)
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6810094/north-carolina-tar-heels-football-coach-butch-davis-dismissed

[cspan37421]

Arguments about the usefulness of college rankings aside, UNC's has not changed because of this affair, so it would appear that their reputation has only really been damaged for you, and not so much in the eyes of the general populace. Outside of pockets of duke and state fans, frankly, most people don't care.

Not just me ... I have a couple of bright, talented kids who will be going to college (one in 2 years), both of whom are quite aware of the college landscape, having attended summer programs at several schools. We have a lot of NC and ACC ties, so they're aware of UNC's former reputation. To the younger one, the bigger sports fan, UNC looks like just another state school - an SEC one at that.

You may be true about the general populace and most people, but I haven't polled most people. I just know that the ideas of "public ivy/academic integrity" and "massive NCAA violations" don't mix well and in resolving that cognitive dissonance, you gotta make a call of some sort.

BTW, if you've followed my posts before, you know that I think rankings like USNWR are a scourge upon the college-search landscape. One can make the case I have without reference to college rankings.

[JasonEvans]

That being said, there are a few people who get screwed, namely the incoming freshman who have already enrolled and weren't given a fair chance to decide what was best for them before enrolling. That being said, somebody was going to get screwed by this, but you can't compromise the thouroughness of investigation for the sake of 20-25 people.

It is probably worth noting that every single freshman at UNC right now knew about the investigation and the potential ramifications of it before they enrolled. Heck, most knew about it before they committed to Carolina. This mess began almost a year ago, before last season began. Anyone who is a freshman there now had to know they were coming to a program in some trouble and one where the head coach might get fired.

-Jason "I think the recent MacAdoo stuff was the straw that broke the camel's back. The new trustees made this their first order of business and told Thorpe what he had to do today" Evans

[JasonEvans]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6810094/north-carolina-tar-heels-football-coach-butch-davis-dismissed

Everyone needs to read that Pat Forde column. I am not generally a fan of Forde, but he really slams Carolina HARD for the timing of this... and he makes some good points.


North Carolina owes everyone an explanation. And it better be a good one.

It owes Davis an explanation of why it put him through the dog-and-pony show in Pinehurst just days earlier. It owes the players, who are on the cusp of starting the season, an explanation of why their plans are now scrambled -- for the second year in a row. (If you're a North Carolina player who hasn't done anything wrong in terms of taking extra benefits or committing academic fraud, how happy are you tonight?) And it owes the fans, who have pumped money into season tickets for 2011, an explanation for why this trap door was yanked open now, instead of this past December or January.

-Jason "I wonder if UNC will now try to bury the phone record release because Davis is no longer an employee -- hmmmm" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

It is probably worth noting that every single freshman at UNC right now knew about the investigation and the potential ramifications of it before they enrolled. Heck, most knew about it before they committed to Carolina. This mess began almost a year ago, before last season began. Anyone who is a freshman there now had to know they were coming to a program in some trouble and one where the head coach might get fired.

-Jason "I think the recent MacAdoo stuff was the straw that broke the camel's back. The new trustees made this their first order of business and told Thorpe what he had to do today" Evans
This is pre-firing.

The scandal has already changed recruiting.
"It has been a challenge," Davis said. "The uncertainty of things and the timeline. When is there going to be some kind of resolution? The one thing we told recruits going back to last year's signing class was, 'There's a process.' We're going to have to follow the process as the NCAA requires. There's the investigative part, the allegations part, the response part, then October."
Davis said he had already landed "16 or 17" players who committed to the Heels before news of the scandal broke.
"Part of the recruiting pitch I've used all the time is: Would you go to the institution if you weren't an athlete?" Davis said. "Would you want a college education from this institution 20 years from now? Because football's going to be over. That helped us. The majority of those kids never wavered. They wanted to come."
http://www.news-record.com/content/2011/07/26/article/tar_heels_davis_turmoil_hurting_unc_recruiting

[CameronBornAndBred]

-Jason "I wonder if UNC will now try to bury the phone record release because Davis is no longer an employee -- hmmmm" Evans
Ooooooohhh!...Is it possible they have dug something up in those records? That's actually a really good question, and if so, would be a more legitimate explanation for the timing of the firing.

[SCMatt33]

It is probably worth noting that every single freshman at UNC right now knew about the investigation and the potential ramifications of it before they enrolled. Heck, most knew about it before they committed to Carolina. This mess began almost a year ago, before last season began. Anyone who is a freshman there now had to know they were coming to a program in some trouble and one where the head coach might get fired.

-Jason "I think the recent MacAdoo stuff was the straw that broke the camel's back. The new trustees made this their first order of business and told Thorpe what he had to do today" Evans

I'm not sure they all were fully made aware of the severity by UNC coaches, at least not according to this (http://hamptonroads.com/2011/07/butch-davis-gone-who-else-pays-price). This guy writes for a pro Va Tech paper so naturally focuses on guys who spurned Va Tech to go to UNC, but those quotes make it look an awful lot like the Butch Davis and Co. were severely downplaying the chances of significant damage to UNC. Given that these are 17 and 18 year old kids who aren't necessarily huge fans who spend hours reading every article on the situation, it's doubtful that many really knew the true severity of the issue.

[striker219]

It is probably worth noting that every single freshman at UNC right now knew about the investigation and the potential ramifications of it before they enrolled. Heck, most knew about it before they committed to Carolina. This mess began almost a year ago, before last season began. Anyone who is a freshman there now had to know they were coming to a program in some trouble and one where the head coach might get fired.

"Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?
Randal: The ending of Return of the Jedi.
Dante: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.
Blue-Collar Man: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... (digs into pocket and produces business card) Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.
Randal: Like when?
Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.
Dante: Whose house was it?
Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.
Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?
Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.
Dante: Based on personal politics.
Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.
Randal: No way!
Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet."

The cut&paste seemed relevant, hope you don't mind.

[CameronBlue]

I don't think today's actions would have happened were it not for rising public sentiment against the UNC football program's offenses and dis-satisfaction about the response of the University to this point. From an anecdotal standpoint from my contacts with business people in the Triad and Triangle, there was more and more talk about the UNC scandal. There were an increasing number of newspaper columns, even in Charlotte and Raleigh, traditionally light blue-friendly media centers, critical of UNC's response to these problems. More radio hosts have been speaking out and even ridiculing the UNC administration.

It may have been an act of conscience for the trustees and chancellor, but it also involved public opinion.

The internal struggle for UNC's identity is not over, other battles are likely. Expect some version of "The Empire Strikes Back" to play out during the search for Butch's successor. Since the mid-90s the school has diverted a staggering amount of cash and fund-raising energy to the program and its facilities as one Kenan renovation has blended into another. To date HT has said nothing to indicate that UNC has deemphasized football (apparently Jones Angel thinks so) or scaled back its expectations for on-field success. It must be assumed that the plan to establish a perennial football power in Chapel Hill remains in motion. UNC wasn't the nerdy chemistry major trying to score with the Homecoming Queen when it hired Butch. Landing a big-name coach was central to the grander vision and the administration was all-in. Butch's hiring empowered influential boosters further and it's naive to think they'll walk away from this skirmish chastened to any appreciable degree; They will do what they have to do to protect their investment, history suggests up to and beyond the point when the school's academic reputation is at risk.

[uh_no]

I think the big question now is whether butch davis is now willing to throw UNC under the bus. I guess it depends on whether he thinks he has a shot at big time college football again. I think after the miami escapades and now this, I doubt that another big school will take a shot at him. If he feels that he is done, would he be more willing to spill all the beans?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I think the big question now is whether butch davis is now willing to throw UNC under the bus. I guess it depends on whether he thinks he has a shot at big time college football again. I think after the miami escapades and now this, I doubt that another big school will take a shot at him. If he feels that he is done, would he be more willing to spill all the beans?
He's coached in the NFL, won in a Super Bowl; I'm sure he'll find another job there. Good question though about how forthcoming he will be now versus before, but since he wasn't named I'm not sure he needs to give to his side of the story. (Although his story might have a darker side than we know of, I guess we'll find out at 11. )
Also, I would assume he still would want to protect his players; they've been loyal to him and I would guess he would be loyal back.

[PallasAthena]

Talk radio is going nuts in Raleigh this morning. 99.9 The Fan is not running Mike & Mike in favor of Local Guy and Greg Barnes from Inside Carolina talking about the Davis firing. "Coverage" will be continuous until 11, when Local Guy will present the Thorp press conference. Press conference to be broadcast on both 620 The Buzz and 99.9 "in its entirety."

The focus of fan anger seems to be Thorp/Trustees for letting this drag on until nine days before practice starts.

[OldPhiKap]

He's coached in the NFL, won in a Super Bowl; I'm sure he'll find another job there. Good question though about how forthcoming he will be now versus before, but since he wasn't named I'm not sure he needs to give to his side of the story. (Although his story might have a darker side than we know of, I guess we'll find out at 11. )
Also, I would assume he still would want to protect his players; they've been loyal to him and I would guess he would be loyal back.

I imagine he would be concerned about his own potential civil liability, and therefore will say as little as possible.

[sagegrouse]

He's coached in the NFL, won in a Super Bowl; I'm sure he'll find another job there. Good question though about how forthcoming he will be now versus before, but since he wasn't named I'm not sure he needs to give to his side of the story. (Although his story might have a darker side than we know of, I guess we'll find out at 11. )
Also, I would assume he still would want to protect his players; they've been loyal to him and I would guess he would be loyal back.

Although your main point had to do with public discussions, the continuing NCAA investigation is also a hurdle for Butch and UNC. I believe there are three to four MILLION reasons that Butch will cooperate with the NCAA investigation. It will be a condition of buying out his contract. Clearly his contract requires him not only to obey NCAA regulations but also to cooperate fully with any investigation. I can't see the latter provision being waived by UNC in the buyout negotiations.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

Fox Sports: UNC still has more firing to do:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/North-Carolina-Tar-Heels-fire-head-coach-Butch-Davis-athletic-director-Dick-Baddour-should-resign-072711

[CameronBornAndBred]

Although your main point had to do with public discussions, the continuing NCAA investigation is also a hurdle for Butch and UNC. I believe there are three to four MILLION reasons that Butch will cooperate with the NCAA investigation. It will be a condition of buying out his contract. Clearly his contract requires him not only to obey NCAA regulations but also to cooperate fully with any investigation. I can't see the latter provision being waived by UNC in the buyout negotiations.

sagegrouse
Oh I have no doubt he will cooperate, I just don't think there will be any malice behind what he decides to say. Uh_no was asking if he would be more inclined to "spill all the beans" now, and I don't think that will be the case.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Fox Sports: UNC still has more firing to do:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/North-Carolina-Tar-Heels-fire-head-coach-Butch-Davis-athletic-director-Dick-Baddour-should-resign-072711
I agree with that, and Thorp too. They both stood by with staunch support and have now made the school look embarrasingly worse than they did before. The way they have handled this is overshadowing the investigation itself.

[roywhite]

Oh I have no doubt he will cooperate, I just don't think there will be any malice behind what he decides to say. Uh_no was asking if he would be more inclined to "spill all the beans" now, and I don't think that will be the case.

I'm wondering if there will be a dispute as to the finanancial terms of his severance?
Is UNC likely to maintain they fired him for cause and are not responsible for a buyout?
Seems to me this issue will impact how forthcoming Butch is publicly.

Anything definite come out on this yet?

[BD80]

... the continuing NCAA investigation is also a hurdle for Butch and UNC. I believe there are three to four MILLION reasons that Butch will cooperate with the NCAA investigation. It will be a condition of buying out his contract. Clearly his contract requires him not only to obey NCAA regulations but also to cooperate fully with any investigation. I can't see the latter provision being waived by UNC in the buyout negotiations.

sagegrouse


I'm wondering if there will be a dispute as to the finanancial terms of his severance?
Is UNC likely to maintain they fired him for cause and are not responsible for a buyout?
Seems to me this issue will impact how forthcoming Butch is publicly.

Anything definite come out on this yet?

I believe that unc would prefer that butch NOT cooperate with the investigation. Just as the guilty assistant coach/agent was dumped just before production was required, butch is shown the door just as the real phone records are due. I don't know if the redacted records have yet been produced - but butch still has the unredacted version. With butch gone, unc has no "control" of the records and can't be "compelled" by the NCAA (by citing for failing to cooperate).

Nothing in unc's conduct with respect to the investigation to date makes me think that unc has any desire to out the truth.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Fox Sports: UNC still has more firing to do:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/North-Carolina-Tar-Heels-fire-head-coach-Butch-Davis-athletic-director-Dick-Baddour-should-resign-072711
Somehow the handling of this situation reminds me of how the firing of Matt Doherty was handled..... poor timing, role of basketball players in the decision, elements of poor execution of responsibility. Dick Baddour had a role in that situation, too.

[uh_no]

I believe that unc would prefer that butch NOT cooperate with the investigation. Just as the guilty assistant coach/agent was dumped just before production was required, butch is shown the door just as the real phone records are due. I don't know if the redacted records have yet been produced - but butch still has the unredacted version. With butch gone, unc has no "control" of the records and can't be "compelled" by the NCAA (by citing for failing to cooperate).

Nothing in unc's conduct with respect to the investigation to date makes me think that unc has any desire to out the truth.

I disagree and think that the school would want all the dirty laundry aired. The more that comes out now, the more they can hang on Butch, and Butch is gone, but if things leak out over a period of time, it will be like the never ending saga. The more that comes out, the more the school looks to be justified in firing him.

Contrast this with USC, where we're still dealing with the reggie bush stuff from what...7 years ago now? I don't think UNC wants to go down that path and would rather everything get cleared away now, placed on a coat that can be hung around butch davis' shoulders as he's shown the door.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Baddour just resigned. Or at least said he won't renew his contract.

[DevilWearsPrada]

Baddour just resigned. Or at least said he won't renew his contract.

AD Baddour is all choked up giving his resignation, or he is retiring. Or however, they will spin it. NOT SURPRISING, at all. In fact, the termination of Butch Davis, and the AD, leaving, is due time!

Another good day over at the hill!

A great day to be a Blue Devil. With that said, GTHC GTH! :cool:


www.wral.com

[BD80]

Semi-serious question:

Would any of unc's 4th and 5th year players now qualify for the supplemental draft? What if they confessed something that would make them ineligible this year?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'm wondering if there will be a dispute as to the finanancial terms of his severance?
Is UNC likely to maintain they fired him for cause and are not responsible for a buyout?
Seems to me this issue will impact how forthcoming Butch is publicly.

Anything definite come out on this yet?
Interesting. Thorp just said that they expect to be paying him close to his full buyout, and are "not dismissing him for cause".

[BD80]

Interesting. Thorp just said that they expect to be paying him close to his full buyout, and are "not dismissing him for cause".

Hush, money.

[WiJoe]

Thorp just said they ... are "not dismissing him for cause".



Does his nose look longer?

[hudlow]

Interesting. Thorp just said that they expect to be paying him close to his full buyout, and are "not dismissing him for cause".


That would be admitting that they are guilty of something...

[Chard]

I think the big question now is whether butch davis is now willing to throw UNC under the bus. I guess it depends on whether he thinks he has a shot at big time college football again. I think after the miami escapades and now this, I doubt that another big school will take a shot at him. If he feels that he is done, would he be more willing to spill all the beans?

What escapades at Miami are you referring to?

[DevilWearsPrada]

That would be admitting that they are guilty of something...

I dont read IC, but for anyone that does, please post their commments over here. Has the IC forum blown up with web traffic?

Another great day to be a Duke Blue Devil! GTHC GTH

[roywhite]

I dont read IC, but for anyone that does, please post their commments over here. Has the IC forum blown up with web traffic?

Another great day to be a Duke Blue Devil! GTHC GTH

Over at IC, huge number online...3,271 when I just checked.

Topics all over the map...Fire Holden Thorp, Petition to reinstate Butch, Who's the next coach?, Who's the next A.D.?

[CLT Devil]

Wow! What a crazy day in Charlotte, or NC in general. First we had everything going on with the Panthers re-signing most of their targets, as well as releasing John Kasay. Just when I thought things were winding down I read that Butch Davis was fired, and apparently blindsided by the decision as he was weeping after the meeting with the Board. Now we hear that Baddour has turned in his resignation. He plans to stay on through the allegations. UNC plans to pay Davis so they aren't really going to fight the fact that he was not the 'cause' of a lot that happened. I guess it comes down to 'should' he have known, but it appears that UNC is not going to try to fight that.

They won't be hiring a coach this summer, most likely in Jan or when season is over.

So, in 10 years or so is ESPN going to do another 30 for 30 on the 2010 UNC Football and the 'Team That Could Have Been?' Depends on how well the guys who didn't play but still got drafted/signed do in the NFL.

Here is one more thought on the alumni's feelings in general toward the Football team and academic standards for sports in Chapel Hill: Right about the time that I was graduating High School and getting ready to go to Duke I had a few friends get denied/waitlisted at UNCCH. These were the sons and daughters of alums who had given generously to the Rams Club and supported the school financially and as a fan going to games. In one case the alums kid was near the top of his class, had great grades and good test scores. There was a lot of resentment toward the school as the parents were mad at who the school was letting in to play sports and their kids weren't getting in after they were well qualified and their parents had given money and support for years. I know the two might not be directly related, but it did cause some bitter feelings toward the school from some staunch supporters. I think this faction of the Alumni base has a least a little bit to do with people getting fired and resigning. Most UNC alumni I know are almost sanctimonious about how their athletes were great students. Just a thought.

[hudlow]

I dont read IC, but for anyone that does, please post their commments over here. Has the IC forum blown up with web traffic?

Another great day to be a Duke Blue Devil! GTHC GTH

It blew up a long time ago - they just didn't notice.

[Devilsfan]

Wonder if the constant rumors of alledged loaner cars being parked anywhere the driver desired on campus, the alledged dispursement of tickets for re-sale and the alledged having papers written for players will now cease? I hate rumors, especially the ones that never go away year after year.

[devildeac]

Headline in the sports section of the Raleigh N&O this AM (I kid you not):

"Tarheel football team to spend a season in purgatory"

I don't see how/why that is newsworthy. We have been telling them to GO TO HELL for decades.

:D

[DevilWearsPrada]

Headline in the sports section of the Raleigh N&O this AM (I kid you not):

"Tarheel football team to spend a season in purgatory"

I don't see how/why that is newsworthy. We have been telling them to GO TO HELL for decades.

:D

Am I being disrespectful for giggling? :) rofl

Any thoughts on what the Newspaper headlines will read about the Thorp/Baddour live conference?

Also, how will the Firing of Butch Davis, and the stepping down of AD, Baddour effect this season of Unc Football, recruitment or the next 2-5 year plan?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. I have standards, you know! :cool:

[Indoor66]

If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. I have standards, you know! :cool:

You old Optimist, you! :cool:

[Jarhead]

After the onslaught of news and internet stuff about the crisis at UNC my first reaction was vigorous feelings of Schadenfreude. There was just to much to digest. Then I stumbled on the UNC press conference, and I remembered that I am a tax paying citizen of the state of North Carolina. I'm sorry, but I was disappointed in those two gentlemen. The only good news out of that was Baddour stepping down. On the other hand, neither Thorp nor Baddour impressed me. They simply were not convincing. Enough said.

[Highlander]

If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. I have standards, you know! :cool:

Oz - think of the damage you could do from behind the scenes. You could work out of office 9F. You could fire Roy, rehire Doherty, put a chipmunk in charge of the football team, change the basketball uni's to match the dark blue football ones, get fired for incompetence, and leave in total disgrace. It would take UNC a decade to recover from your rule. Meanwhile, we'd throw a welcome home party to you and treat you like a hero!

But there is the matter of your having to wear a baby blue tie to work everyday. May not be worth it.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Qualifications

1. Graduate of the school and the law school.

2. Hates Duke.

3. Should have learned a lot about athletes.

4. I would guess he could use the job and money.

Any other nominees?

SoCal

[DevilWearsPrada]

Qualifications

1. Graduate of the school and the law school.

2. Hates Duke.

3. Should have learned a lot about athletes.

4. I would guess he could use the job and money.

Any other nominees?

SoCal

I thought about Nifong during the 11am conference with Thorp and Baddour. And how the Unc scandal is unfolding, a year later. A very different ending than the Lacrosse story.

Would John Edwards be a candidate also?
He needs more money, to pay high attorney costs, and repay the $2 million dollars from the campaign fund.
Edwards graduated from Unc Law school.

[Kfanarmy]

Perhaps the timing was announced specifically to insure new recruits had already enrolled and couldn't back out...hey its a possibility


....That being said, there are a few people who get screwed, namely the incoming freshman who have already enrolled and weren't given a fair chance to decide what was best for them before enrolling. That being said, somebody was going to get screwed by this, but you can't compromise the thouroughness of investigation for the sake of 20-25 people. They could have told them quietly that this was possible (and we don't know for sure that they didn't), but I imagine that it would be hard to get word to just those guys without word of Davis' situation becoming public or at least spread around the football team. Depending on how the University handles this season and the hiring of their next permanent head coach, we will know for sure how much this was about doing the right thing or if (I hope and suspect that this is NOT the case) that they simply came to the conclusion that they couldn't get Davis through all of this wiithout significant damage to the success of the football team.

[SCMatt33]

Perhaps the timing was announced specifically to insure new recruits had already enrolled and couldn't back out...hey its a possibility

I thought about that, but there is no upside for UNC in keeping players who don't want to be there and feel screwed by the university. It's the same reason that players who ask for a release will almost always get it in the end. It's the old leading a horse to water scenario. You can't make him drink.

[Reilly]

.... It's the old leading a horse to water scenario. You can't make him drink.

... but they usually will nibble a peanut butter & pepper ball from your hand ...

[hood7]

Playing at Carolina is like being in jail...once you're out, you're free...I'm doing my time.
- R.McCants (paraphrased from memory)

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Perhaps the timing was announced specifically to insure new recruits had already enrolled and couldn't back out...hey its a possibility
I suspect the timing is related to the new chairman of the BOT (yesterday) and other factors such as the way the media focus at the recent ACC football media day...... focus on the scandal, not the looking ahead to the football season about to get underway.

[devildeac]

Good read here:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/07/28/butch-davis-unc/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a8&eref=sihp

[Kfanarmy]

I suspect the timing is related to the new chairman of the BOT (yesterday) and other factors such as the way the media focus at the recent ACC football media day...... focus on the scandal, not the looking ahead to the football season about to get underway.

let's focus more on the evil of UNC and less on the true motives pls...its Thursday, let your humor begin to show

[-bdbd]

Qualifications

1. Graduate of the school and the law school.

2. Hates Duke.

3. Should have learned a lot about athletes.

4. I would guess he could use the job and money.

Any other nominees?

SoCal

P.S. Nifong seems to have the right moral standing for the NC AD job as well.

Candidate #2 - Joe Alleva. He is already interviewing for other AD jobs, and he likes boating around the lakes in the CH area.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/acc/2011-07-28-north-carolina-dick-baddour-butch-davis_n.htm

Candidate #4 (my fave) - I'm thinking Michael Jordan has to enter the conversation somewhere here... he seems to enter every other Tar Hell conversation at some point! And, he's qualified - having run at least two other basketball-first franchises into the ground already. :rolleyes:


If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve. I have standards, you know! :cool:


Wait1 Oz, you have standards??! Really? ;)

[dukebsbll14]

Qualifications

1. Graduate of the school and the law school.

2. Hates Duke.

3. Should have learned a lot about athletes.

4. I would guess he could use the job and money.

Any other nominees?

SoCal

Nifong has plenty of evidence that will get the hooligans that caused this out of there!

[OldPhiKap]

Why not just put the AD job out for bid?

Oh wait, they already do that.

Nevermind.

[uh_no]

I suspect the timing is related to the new chairman of the BOT (yesterday) and other factors such as the way the media focus at the recent ACC football media day...... focus on the scandal, not the looking ahead to the football season about to get underway.

If I'm not mistaken, this was a firing from the top, the BOT, as opposed to the AD. They are limited in when they meet, and this is likely the first time they met for months. While the AD can fire people anytime, I think the timing is 100% related to the fact that there was a board meeting....seeing as it was a board decision...its not like they were going to convene a month ago in a special session just to fire the football coach.

[oldnavy]

Carolina football doesn't seem to be able to get out of it's own way. Even when they do the right thing, they do it at the absolute wrong time. What are they thinking over on the hill? I can see no positive for the university in this mess. The majority of the fans are angry, the players are angry, the recruits are confused, potential coaches have to be asking what kind of circus would I be working for if I take a job there?.... WOW!

I totally agree with give Butch the pink slip, but what on earth benefit is there to doing it now? They should have done it a lot sooner or if not then wait until the end of the season. Either you stand behind the guy or you don't. Why let him go to the ACC Media event and then suddenly pull the rug out from under him?

This time when Butch says he had no idea about what was going on I will believe him!

I guess if you needed to prove to the world that you have no regards for your football program you would make the move now.

Maybe that is it, maybe Thorpe wanted to show the world that he doesn't give a #+*& about UNC football. I can't think of a better way to do it.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

If I'm not mistaken, this was a firing from the top, the BOT, as opposed to the AD. They are limited in when they meet, and this is likely the first time they met for months. While the AD can fire people anytime, I think the timing is 100% related to the fact that there was a board meeting....seeing as it was a board decision...its not like they were going to convene a month ago in a special session just to fire the football coach.
I believe you are correct. It took a new chairman and the first scheduled meeting of the new board to set this in motion.

The dust up is interesting to watch and not be part of it. There is currently a new group on Facebook called "Fire Holden Thorp." It's based on the notion that Chancellor Thorp wrongly destroyed the coach and AD and thus must be fired.

[roywhite]

Carolina football doesn't seem to be able to get out of it's own way. Even when they do the right thing, they do it at the absolute wrong time. What are they thinking over on the hill? I can see no positive for the university in this mess. The majority of the fans are angry, the players are angry, the recruits are confused, potential coaches have to be asking what kind of circus would I be working for if I take a job there?.... WOW!

I totally agree with give Butch the pink slip, but what on earth benefit is there to doing it now? They should have done it a lot sooner or if not then wait until the end of the season. Either you stand behind the guy or you don't. Why let him go to the ACC Media event and then suddenly pull the rug out from under him?

This time when Butch says he had no idea about what was going on I will believe him!

I guess if you needed to prove to the world that you have no regards for your football program you would make the move now.

Maybe that is it, maybe Thorpe wanted to show the world that he doesn't give a #+*& about UNC football. I can't think of a better way to do it.

Gotta disagree a bit here.

If the powers that be reach the decision that he needs to go, the sooner the better.
You wouldn't expect to keep on an employee that deserves to be fired just because it's the wrong time of the work year.

No doubt sooner would have been better.

I hear some light-blue fans on sports radio griping about the timing and ticked off at Thorp.
The larger point is Butch deserved to be fired, and Baddour also needed to go.

[uh_no]

I believe you are correct. It took a new chairman and the first scheduled meeting of the new board to set this in motion.

The dust up is interesting to watch and not be part of it. There is currently a new group on Facebook called "Fire Holden Thorp." It's based on the notion that Chancellor Thorp wrongly destroyed the coach and AD and thus must be fired.

I guess now that Butch is gone, someone has to keep driving the academic reputation of the university into the ground....those fans are off to a great start

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I guess now that Butch is gone, someone has to keep driving the academic reputation of the university into the ground....those fans are off to a great start
The ones I know who like this community as it's called on Facebook, are not UNC grads.... they're fans including some who matriculated but couldn't/didn't finish.

[CLT Devil]

Over at IC, huge number online...3,271 when I just checked.

Topics all over the map...Fire Holden Thorp, Petition to reinstate Butch, Who's the next coach?, Who's the next A.D.?

Most Popular Thread: "Countdown To 'Late Night With Roy'?

Baddour, in hindsight, had no business being the AD. Just look at who all left and who was hired and how the hiring process was handled. I believe he was an English teacher and I know he was a 'Carolina Man' - the first and only grad to hold the position (please tell me if I am missing something or totally incorrect here) so maybe that helped him keep his job for a while. Eventually he did redeem himself with the Williams and Davis hires but he pretty much had to go after Davis was fired.

The the poster above who said they had to wait until the next scheduled meeting: Do you not think that they would convene for a special session or a quorum to take care of this if it really was 'chipping away at the integrity of the University (paraphrase)?' I'd hope they had the ability to have a special session if need be. I do believe that it had to do with the Trustees and having a Pro-Butch chair on the way out and someone less forgiving of the academic fraud taking over. From what I hear, it wasn't so much that they were waiting to have a meeting fire him, as the old chairman didn't want him to go, and it was the new guy who pushed for the firing.

[-jk]

If I'm not mistaken, this was a firing from the top, the BOT, as opposed to the AD. They are limited in when they meet, and this is likely the first time they met for months. While the AD can fire people anytime, I think the timing is 100% related to the fact that there was a board meeting....seeing as it was a board decision...its not like they were going to convene a month ago in a special session just to fire the football coach.

I think you're absolutely right that the BoT did it. But they meet every other month. Since the football season ended, they met in Jan, Mar, and May and didn't take any action when the same facts were (or should have been) apparent.

From reports, it seems the new board membership pushed for it.

-jk

[Acymetric]

Most Popular Thread: "Countdown To 'Late Night With Roy'?

Baddour, in hindsight, had no business being the AD. Just look at who all left and who was hired and how the hiring process was handled. I believe he was an English teacher and I know he was a 'Carolina Man' - the first and only grad to hold the position (please tell me if I am missing something or totally incorrect here) so maybe that helped him keep his job for a while. Eventually he did redeem himself with the Williams and Davis hires but he pretty much had to go after Davis was fired.

Pretty sure John Swofford was a player and then the AD before becoming the ACC commissioner, right?

[Indoor66]

Most Popular Thread: "Countdown To 'Late Night With Roy'?

Baddour, in hindsight, had no business being the AD. Just look at who all left and who was hired and how the hiring process was handled. I believe he was an English teacher and I know he was a 'Carolina Man' - the first and only grad to hold the position (please tell me if I am missing something or totally incorrect here) so maybe that helped him keep his job for a while. Eventually he did redeem himself with the Williams and Davis hires but he pretty much had to go after Davis was fired.

You are incorrect. John Swafford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Swofford) was the Carolina AD from 1980-1997.

[Indoor66]

Pretty sure John Swofford was a player and then the AD before becoming the ACC commissioner, right?

He was AD at the Dump - 1980-1997.

[hudlow]

Now would be a good time to kick some butt in their school of journalism too.

Why not? I mean while they're doing the cleaning....

[devildeac]

I think you're absolutely right that the BoT did it. But they meet every other month. Since the football season ended, they met in Jan, Mar, and May and didn't take any action when the same facts were (or should have been) apparent.

From reports, it seems the new board membership pushed for it.

-jk

This would support the above and the other thoughts by DitBD and uh_no:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/07/28/butch-davis-unc/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a8&eref=sihp

Particularly this from about the middle of the article:


Now a week separated from the start of training camp, Thorp executed his decision with interesting timing, to say the least. But it should come as no coincidence that his decision also came the day a new Board of Trustees chairman was elected.

Bob Winston had long been known as a Davis supporter. The board's chairman since 2009, Winston and UNC administrators bent over backwards to show their support for the coach any chance they got. At a November meeting with Thorp and athletic director Dick Baddour, the board confirmed that Davis would be the head football coach in 2011. But a change of tune comes in July, already a month after the NCAA finally delivered its notice of allegations (which, by the way, had nothing in it that surprised anyone paying attention) and comes the same day Winston is no longer the board's chairman.

With a new sheriff in town in Raleigh lawyer Wade Hargrove, the sentiments toward Davis likely shifted in the meeting's closed session, and Thorp finally handed Davis his pink slip a few months tardy. But what does firing Davis actually cost UNC?

[oldnavy]

Gotta disagree a bit here.

If the powers that be reach the decision that he needs to go, the sooner the better.
You wouldn't expect to keep on an employee that deserves to be fired just because it's the wrong time of the work year.No doubt sooner would have been better.

I hear some light-blue fans on sports radio griping about the timing and ticked off at Thorp.
The larger point is Butch deserved to be fired, and Baddour also needed to go.

Roy, I get your point, but I may keep an employee that deserves to be fired until I have a plan to replace said employee, ESPECIALLY if I feel the employee has done nothing “wrong” per se like they continue to claim about Butch. If the negative impact to the organization outweighs the benefit of firing the employee then wait. It is not like Butch was some sort of pariah. Thorpe and Baddour also have to think about the impact on the university as well.

He SHOULD have been fired at the beginning of the mess. That is when firing him would have made the statement that they value the integrity of the school over the FB program. Waiting and supporting him for a year only to fire him at the start of the season is just stupid IMO. It is not like some NEW allegations were just uncovered. At this late juncture, I would have waited. I think that Thorpe and Baddour have set UNC football back at least 5 years.

BTW, I am loving it!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The interim coach has been announced. Everett Withers has an interesting bio. He's facing quite a challenge.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9925340/

[-bdbd]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/acc/2011-07-28-north-carolina-dick-baddour-butch-davis_n.htm

No surprise that they would pick as interim HC the current Defensive Coordinator, for a unit that has been the clear strength of the team for the last few years. He doesn't have much in the way of HC experience, so I don't know if he gets a serious look to continue after the "interim" season. But who the heck else could they get at this point?? Next domino is to see how much of the staff follow (or are pushed) out with Davis.

This move is an attempt to maximize continuity and to minimize defections. Feel sorry for those kids though. The leadership of the University clearly let them down.

[watzone]

It's a good bet they'll clean house in the off season.

[Newton_14]

Have to agree with BD80 that the NCAA has seen the last of Butch Davis. That is why Butch is getting paid. He walks away and takes the phone records with him, just like Blake. There is no doubt in my mind the NCAA will never get the chance to speak with Butch again regarding this investigation. Only Holden Thorpe and Dick Baddour will go to Indianapolis in Oct to face the NCAA. UNC also stated they reviewed the phone records but did not make copies. The records are gone now. How convenient.

JP Giglio, a writer for the ACC, WRAL, and Charlotte really cornered HT in the press conference about the buyout. A previous person had asked HT if Butch knew or should have known about the bad things going on. HT responded that he is confident Butch did not know and stopped there. The person followed up with "But do you feel Butch should have known?" HT responded again with "I am confident Butch did not know". Giglio then asks a question and dude was so mad his voice was almost cracking. He said "Holden, I am holding a copy of Butch's contract right here and it clearly states that if there are NCAA violations under his watch, UNC has cause to fire without paying Butch, so why are you paying him? HT responds with "Because we do not feel Butch is at fault here" or something to that effect. Giglio then angrily states "Then why are you firing him??"

Interesting to that HT claims he went to the BOT meeting and "asked their permission to proceed with firing Butch". I do not buy that for one second. I think the new BOT called HT in and demanded he fire Butch.

Someone else mentioned today that the reason Holden and Dick communicated over and over the last 7 months to recruits, the team, and the fanbase that Butch would absolutely be the coach in the 2011 Season was to insure there were no defections of players or incoming recruits, but more importantly, so the donations would continue pouring in to help fund the new renovations. Sounds plausible to me. One other theory floated to me by the UNC crowd is that the McAdoo case pushed the UNC administration over the top given how it exposed the plagiarism, which was a huge embarrassment.

No matter what the actual facts are, the timing with everything that went down this week has created turmoil in the fanbase, with the team, and with the local and national media. A big mess all the way around.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Have to agree with BD80 that the NCAA has seen the last of Butch Davis. That is why Butch is getting paid. He walks away and takes the phone records with him, just like Blake. There is no doubt in my mind the NCAA will never get the chance to speak with Butch again regarding this investigation. Only Holden Thorpe and Dick Baddour will go to Indianapolis in Oct to face the NCAA. UNC also stated they reviewed the phone records but did not make copies. The records are gone now. How convenient.

JP Giglio, a writer for the ACC, WRAL, and Charlotte really cornered HT in the press conference about the buyout. A previous person had asked HT if Butch knew or should have known about the bad things going on. HT responded that he is confident Butch did not know and stopped there. The person followed up with "But do you feel Butch should have known?" HT responded again with "I am confident Butch did not know". Giglio then asks a question and dude was so mad his voice was almost cracking. He said "Holden, I am holding a copy of Butch's contract right here and it clearly states that if there are NCAA violations under his watch, UNC has cause to fire without paying Butch, so why are you paying him? HT responds with "Because we do not feel Butch is at fault here" or something to that effect. Giglio then angrily states "Then why are you firing him??"

Interesting to that HT claims he went to the BOT meeting and "asked their permission to proceed with firing Butch". I do not buy that for one second. I think the new BOT called HT in and demanded he fire Butch.

Someone else mentioned today that the reason Holden and Dick communicated over and over the last 7 months to recruits, the team, and the fanbase that Butch would absolutely be the coach in the 2011 Season was to insure there were no defections of players or incoming recruits, but more importantly, so the donations would continue pouring in to help fund the new renovations. Sounds plausible to me. One other theory floated to me by the UNC crowd is that the McAdoo case pushed the UNC administration over the top given how it exposed the plagiarism, which was a huge embarrassment.

No matter what the actual facts are, the timing with everything that went down this week has created turmoil in the fanbase, with the team, and with the local and national media. A big mess all the way around.

I've been hearing that donations have been dropping off or have been withdrawn as the saga has dragged along.

Perhaps all the pressure required to force the firing finally came together this week. Those of us on the outside may never know all the details of what triggered this cascade of events.

[Newton_14]

I've been hearing that donations have been dropping off or have been withdrawn as the saga has dragged along.

Perhaps all the pressure required to force the firing finally came together this week. Those of us on the outside may never know all the details of what triggered this cascade of events.

I expect they will see a huge dropoff in donations in the short-term giving this weeks events. Especially if they have already been dropping off in recent months. I am surrounded by UNC alums at work and all of them were disgusted the last 2 days. I think the fanbase feels very alienated right now.

[Reilly]

...
Interesting to that HT claims he went to the BOT meeting and "asked their permission to proceed with firing Butch". I do not buy that for one second. I think the new BOT called HT in and demanded he fire Butch. ....

I think it was mutual (that is, both Thorp and the BOT wanted Davis gone for the good of the university). Watch the last August presser:
Thorp has clear disdain for Davis. But Thorp had no power to do anything. Now, he does. He actually smiles in today's presser when he
said he had the full support of the Board. Thorp wanted to do the right thing all along, but didnt have the power, and didn't have the spine to fall on his sword to do the right thing earlier.

I believe www.bobleesays.com nails it 100%. I also liked the interview with Wade Hargrove, the new BOT chair, on wralsports.com
Hargrove seems like an upstanding man.

[elvis14]

Carolina football doesn't seem to be able to get out of it's own way. Even when they do the right thing, they do it at the absolute wrong time. What are they thinking over on the hill? I can see no positive for the university in this mess. The majority of the fans are angry, the players are angry, the recruits are confused, potential coaches have to be asking what kind of circus would I be working for if I take a job there?.... WOW!

I think oldnavy sums it up pretty well. It's a good old fashioned dumpster fire....one in which I get to bask in the light of the flames, roast marshmallows, laugh and joke with the kids and remember a time when UNC fans were even more arrogant than they are right now. How great is this? 9F

[JasonEvans]

-Jason "I wonder if UNC will now try to bury the phone record release because Davis is no longer an employee -- hmmmm" Evans

Just remember where you heard that little nugget first.

Lo and behold, UNC announced today that it had examined Butch's telephone records and found nothing improper...

...but the University did not bother to make copies of the phone records so it will not be releasing them. We will simply have to trust that there was nothing wrong with Butch's phone calls.

And, of course, now that Butch is fired, no one can scream about getting access to his phone any more.

I fully believe there was nothing to hide there... nada... completely innocent...

And I just got a great deal buying a bridge in Brooklyn.

-Jason "I am no conspiracy theorist, but this really smells fishy" Evans

[killerleft]

Two words describe the obvious choice for the next head coach as Carolina rediscovers the Way and moves to re-emphasize its academic prominence: Tom Harp. I heard he was in the area recently. Fishy.

[cspan37421]

Just remember where you heard that little nugget first.

Lo and behold, UNC announced today that it had examined Butch's telephone records and found nothing improper...

...but the University did not bother to make copies of the phone records so it will not be releasing them. We will simply have to trust that there was nothing wrong with Butch's phone calls.

...

-Jason "I am no conspiracy theorist, but this really smells fishy" Evans

All kudos to you on that one. When I first read it, I thought, oh yeah, what a perfect out for them!

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to notice that, if UNC and BD wanted to hide unfortunate facts in the phone records from the NCAA, they would have acted exactly the way they did.

How long before an NCAA rule (if there's not one already) that says you have to conduct all university communication on university-issued computers/phones etc? I mean, right from the start, you hear he never used his UNC-paid phone. You don't have to be a legal eagle to infer the motivation behind that.

[BD80]

Just remember where you heard that little nugget first.

Lo and behold, UNC announced today that it had examined Butch's telephone records and found nothing improper...

...but the University did not bother to make copies of the phone records so it will not be releasing them. We will simply have to trust that there was nothing wrong with Butch's phone calls.

And, of course, now that Butch is fired, no one can scream about getting access to his phone any more.

I fully believe there was nothing to hide there... nada... completely innocent...

And I just got a great deal buying a bridge in Brooklyn.

-Jason "I am no conspiracy theorist, but this really smells fishy" Evans

It is likely even more incidious than you make it seem.

davis (he does NOT deserve to be called bd) was the one redacting the phone records. I am certain he, with the help of counsel, was thorough - nay, let's call it enthusiastic - in the redactions.

Thus, there was no wrongdoing apparent from the phone records - there were probably 8 unredacted calls to his mother and 80,000 redacted calls.

Since unc did not retain the records produced, they can not be compelled under FOIA from the public university. We cannot even see how severely davis redacted the phone records

[OldPhiKap]

And, of course, now that Butch is fired, no one can scream about getting access to his phone any more.



Except the NCAA.

[Reilly]

Why can't the public scream about access? What does Davis' firing have to do with it? If I understand the logic, the open records laws are so the citizens can see what's going on with their government. If the phone is used for state business, the citizens should be able to see what's up with all that. Just b/c the guy who used the phone is no longer a state employee should not matter: the citizenry still has a concern as to how its business (the state's business, the people's business) was conducted.

[uh_no]

Why can't the public scream about access? What does Davis' firing have to do with it? If I understand the logic, the open records laws are so the citizens can see what's going on with their government. If the phone is used for state business, the citizens should be able to see what's up with all that. Just b/c the guy who used the phone is no longer a state employee should not matter: the citizenry still has a concern as to how its business (the state's business, the people's business) was conducted.

This is true for a state paid for phone. If he paid for the phone, its private regardless of what he used it for. One can only gain access through a subpeona.

[Reilly]

uh no, that's not my understanding from other stuff read about the phone, with folks making the analogy to private email accounts that courts have granted access to, if those accounts were used for public business.

[Olympic Fan]

This is true for a state paid for phone. If he paid for the phone, its private regardless of what he used it for. One can only gain access through a subpeona.

There is currently a FOI request before Judge Manning, who forced UNC to release the parking tickets and other details they were trying top hide.

My understand of the law is that even if this was a privately owned phone (which it was), the records of it are public property IF THE PHONE WAS USED FOR STATE (OR IN THIS CASE UNIVERSITY) BUSINESS. There's considerable evidence that it was -- the previously released phone records show numerous calls to and from this number from AD Dick Baddour and from assistant coach John Blake.

Obviously, this makes it harder to get the number, but Judge Manning has not been a pushover in the past. It's still possible that we get these records ... and Manning, at least, is likely to get them unredacted.

[BD80]

There is currently a FOI request before Judge Manning, who forced UNC to release the parking tickets and other details they were trying top hide.

My understand of the law is that even if this was a privately owned phone (which it was), the records of it are public property IF THE PHONE WAS USED FOR STATE (OR IN THIS CASE UNIVERSITY) BUSINESS. There's considerable evidence that it was -- the previously released phone records show numerous calls to and from this number from AD Dick Baddour and from assistant coach John Blake.

Obviously, this makes it harder to get the number, but Judge Manning has not been a pushover in the past. It's still possible that we get these records ... and Manning, at least, is likely to get them unredacted.

I don't believe Manning has jurisdiction over davis under FOIA. He can compel unc to turn over what they have, but I understand they only had the redacted copies

[OldPhiKap]

I don't believe Manning has jurisdiction over davis under FOIA. He can compel unc to turn over what they have, but I understand they only had the redacted copies

Do they even have copies, or were they merely allowed to review redacted copies?

[alteran]

Most UNC alumni I know are incredibly sanctimonious about how their athletes were great students. Just a thought.

Corrected that for you.

[uh_no]

I don't believe Manning has jurisdiction over davis under FOIA. He can compel unc to turn over what they have, but I understand they only had the redacted copies

I think you are correct. If a judge could compel a citizen to turn over private phone records because there were rumors that it may have been used for public business, it would violate both the citizens implied right to privacy and his right to be free from unreasonable search. If a judge were able to do this, then they could effectively freely search any public employees private domiciles if there were a 'rumor' that public business may have been conducted there, and that is a CLEAR violation fo the 4th amendment. Butch would only be compelled to release the records under a subpeona, and seeing as nobody is being investigated for a crime, that is highly unlikely. All that can be done is to compel UNC to release the records which they have. They have no obligation to store butch's private phone records, and have announced they did not store them.

We will likely never know what happened in them.

[alteran]

I think you are correct. If a judge could compel a citizen to turn over private phone records because there were rumors that it may have been used for public business, it would violate both the citizens implied right to privacy and his right to be free from unreasonable search. If a judge were able to do this, then they could effectively freely search any public employees private domiciles if there were a 'rumor' that public business may have been conducted there, and that is a CLEAR violation fo the 4th amendment. Butch would only be compelled to release the records under a subpeona, and seeing as nobody is being investigated for a crime, that is highly unlikely. All that can be done is to compel UNC to release the records which they have. They have no obligation to store butch's private phone records, and have announced they did not store them.

We will likely never know what happened in them.

FWIW, remember that the state actually started an investigation into tampering or something. The case seems to have been mothballed, but there IS the possibility of a criminal case here. If there is such a case, and we have calls to the private phone from Blake, I think it quite likely that Davis' phone records would be subject to subpoena.

Otherwise, you're spot on. Without a criminal case it's hard to see where the subpoena power comes from. Granted, IANAL, NDIPOOTV.

[sagegrouse]

I think you are correct. If a judge could compel a citizen to turn over private phone records because there were rumors that it may have been used for public business, it would violate both the citizens implied right to privacy and his right to be free from unreasonable search. If a judge were able to do this, then they could effectively freely search any public employees private domiciles if there were a 'rumor' that public business may have been conducted there, and that is a CLEAR violation fo the 4th amendment. Butch would only be compelled to release the records under a subpeona, and seeing as nobody is being investigated for a crime, that is highly unlikely. All that can be done is to compel UNC to release the records which they have. They have no obligation to store butch's private phone records, and have announced they did not store them.

We will likely never know what happened in them.

The threat to UNC is solely from the NCAA unless the Carolina law grads in the state legislature rear up on their hind legs and do something.

NCAA requires the institution to participate voluntarily and constructively in any investigation. That goes for its employees. The NCAA must do that because it doesn't have subpoena power (we have to be thankful for something). Under the terms of the Butch Davis buyout, it seems to me that UNC has the right and responsibility to insist on cooperation from Butch prior to coughing up the $2.7 million (or whatever) it will pay him. Now UNC has received records from Butch and claims there is nothing there. That wouldn't be good enough for me. I would request a third party (a law firm, e.g.) to conduct the review of all the records.

Don't doubt the importance of cooperating with the NCAA -- look what happened to Georgia Tech, who had minor, minor violations, and got hammered because the Tech counsel at the time dealt in an aggressive way with the NCAA staff ("Tell me what you found out. No, I will not tell you what I know until I have finished looking into it.") And, of course, the AD whispered something about the investigation of minor matters to coaches and players.

sagegrouse
'GT should appeal and its penalties should be reduced to a handslap'

[Acymetric]

I think you are correct. If a judge could compel a citizen to turn over private phone records because there were rumors that it may have been used for public business, it would violate both the citizens implied right to privacy and his right to be free from unreasonable search. If a judge were able to do this, then they could effectively freely search any public employees private domiciles if there were a 'rumor' that public business may have been conducted there, and that is a CLEAR violation fo the 4th amendment. Butch would only be compelled to release the records under a subpeona, and seeing as nobody is being investigated for a crime, that is highly unlikely. All that can be done is to compel UNC to release the records which they have. They have no obligation to store butch's private phone records, and have announced they did not store them.

We will likely never know what happened in them.

Well they aren't rumors...its known fact that he used the phone for business because the only alternative is that he never made phone calls (his work phone record was BLANK).

[uh_no]

Well they aren't rumors...its known fact that he used the phone for business because the only alternative is that he never made phone calls (his work phone record was BLANK).

Still Speculation, and as far as I understand it (counter to what others have said) is that a private line is private (as far as FOI goes) regardless of what it is used for.

[uh_no]

The threat to UNC is solely from the NCAA unless the Carolina law grads in the state legislature rear up on their hind legs and do something.

NCAA requires the institution to participate voluntarily and constructively in any investigation. That goes for its employees. The NCAA must do that because it doesn't have subpoena power (we have to be thankful for something). Under the terms of the Butch Davis buyout, it seems to me that UNC has the right and responsibility to insist on cooperation from Butch prior to coughing up the $2.7 million (or whatever) it will pay him. Now UNC has received records from Butch and claims there is nothing there. That wouldn't be good enough for me. I would request a third party (a law firm, e.g.) to conduct the review of all the records.

Don't doubt the importance of cooperating with the NCAA -- look what happened to Georgia Tech, who had minor, minor violations, and got hammered because the Tech counsel at the time dealt in an aggressive way with the NCAA staff ("Tell me what you found out. No, I will not tell you what I know until I have finished looking into it.") And, of course, the AD whispered something about the investigation of minor matters to coaches and players.

sagegrouse
'GT should appeal and its penalties should be reduced to a handslap'

Good points. I was mainly referring to the ability of a FOI filing to obtain the records as public. I don't think we know at this time what stipulations UNC put on the buyout, but I wouldn't be surprised if full NCAA cooperation was one of them.

[-jk]

Still Speculation, and as far as I understand it (counter to what others have said) is that a private line is private (as far as FOI goes) regardless of what it is used for.

We do know that his A-1 assistant coach (whose unc phone records were extensively reviewed) called Davis's private phone a lot. Perhaps they were just meeting for drinks...

-jk

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

FWIW, remember that the state actually started an investigation into tampering or something. The case seems to have been mothballed, but there IS the possibility of a criminal case here. If there is such a case, and we have calls to the private phone from Blake, I think it quite likely that Davis' phone records would be subject to subpoena.

Otherwise, you're spot on. Without a criminal case it's hard to see where the subpoena power comes from. Granted, IANAL, NDIPOOTV.
The State's investigation is regarding the behavior of individual people acting as licensed sports agents..... Department of State handles such licensing and polices it. Such investigations usually go on without public comment or announcement until concluded, so I'm not making any assumptions at this point regarding the progress or lack of it in this investigation.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Here's a little more information regarding the timing of the decision.....http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9931289/.

[Newton_14]

Good points. I was mainly referring to the ability of a FOI filing to obtain the records as public. I don't think we know at this time what stipulations UNC put on the buyout, but I wouldn't be surprised if full NCAA cooperation was one of them.

I still maintain that UNC does NOT want Butch to cooperate with the NCAA. I think they are paying him to go away, take the phone records with him, and not cooperate with the NCAA. I could be wrong and will fully own up to it if I am proved to be so, but I just do not think Butch will travel to the NCAA meeting in October. It will only be Thorpe and Baddour.

Also, per a WRAL article yesterday, UNC does not have the phone records. The UNC official stated they reviewed the phone records but did not keep copies. The phone records are gone forever unless Butch decides to share them, which like you indicate, he cannot be forced to do outside of a criminal case.

[BD80]

Good points. I was mainly referring to the ability of a FOI filing to obtain the records as public. I don't think we know at this time what stipulations UNC put on the buyout, but I wouldn't be surprised if full NCAA cooperation was one of them.

unc's history would suggest otherwise. Wasn't the assistant let go before his cooperation was required pursuant to his contract, and unc did NOT require his cooperation as part of the termination?

[Devilsfan]

Carolina football players seam to give us a new meaning to the term "student athlete".

[oldnavy]

I still maintain that UNC does NOT want Butch to cooperate with the NCAA. I think they are paying him to go away, take the phone records with him, and not cooperate with the NCAA. I could be wrong and will fully own up to it if I am proved to be so, but I just do not think Butch will travel to the NCAA meeting in October. It will only be Thorpe and Baddour.

Also, per a WRAL article yesterday, UNC does not have the phone records. The UNC official stated they reviewed the phone records but did not keep copies. The phone records are gone forever unless Butch decides to share them, which like you indicate, he cannot be forced to do outside of a criminal case.

I agree. Butch will not be within 500 miles of that meeting, nor will Blake or Wiley or any other of the parties directly involved. UNC is embaressed by this mess and will try to keep as much of the ugliness hidden as possible. I just wonder how that will go over with the NCAA.

[uh_no]

I agree. Butch will not be within 500 miles of that meeting, nor will Blake or Wiley or any other of the parties directly involved. UNC is embaressed by this mess and will try to keep as much of the ugliness hidden as possible. I just wonder how that will go over with the NCAA.

I just don't see what the purpose of his hiding is. His reputation is already ruined, and he likely won't ever coach in the NCAA again. Maybe I just am too naive to realize that some people are dirtbags who will never own up to anything and just cover their _ until the cows come home.

Butch Davis: A grade "A" jerk.

[oldnavy]

I just don't see what the purpose of his hiding is. His reputation is already ruined, and he likely won't ever coach in the NCAA again. Maybe I just am too naive to realize that some people are dirtbags who will never own up to anything and just cover their _ until the cows come home.

Butch Davis: A grade "A" jerk.

Uh_no I think you have to get into the mindset of a typical UNCer. They truly do not think that they need to spray the bathroom with air freshener after they do their business. I have experienced it multiple times when dealing with the faculty of the pharmacy school and of course with the gazillion fans. It is something about that pale blue that makes them feel superior to everyone else and above it all.

You watch, the same fans are going to be calling for Coach K’s head for the “alleged” early offer to AP, but will scream until they pass out that Butch should be retained… makes no logical sense at all.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Holden Thorp has had a lot of email to read lately.


The latest release of public records from the University of North Carolina is a stack of emails to the chancellor's office from a period covering the weeks leading up to Wednesday's move to fire head football coach Butch Davis.

It seems that most of the emails were supportive of his decision. (As they should be, I don't understand how one can be a fan of the university and still want Davis representing them.)
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9931289/

[gumbomoop]

Holden Thorp has had a lot of email to read lately.

It seems that most of the emails were supportive of his decision. (As they should be, I don't understand how one can be a fan of the university and still want Davis representing them.)
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9931289/

I'm all for schadenfreude [a ref, to be clear, not at all to CB&B's comments, but to my own general outlook on Things-Heel] where UNC is concerned, but in the larger scheme of things, it is, IMO, a very good thing that Thorp has some support.

Having posted the following on the earlier thread.....


1. Who exactly are the higher ups?
2. To whom do the higher ups feel responsible?
3. Has a majority of the Board of Trustees [or analogous body] expressed any outrage at this mess?
4. Has any faculty body expressed any anger? Have individual faculty - say, even a few - expressed their dismay?
5. Any alums pissed off and making noise?
6. How about a few students, let's say among the outliers who are in CH for a first-rate education, and don't give a rip about sports? [IMO, it's pretty impressive how effectively a few students can embarrass adults who act disgracefully.]

Will anyone choose to, and be successful in, hold(ing) the higher ups to honorable standards? Or will its several constituencies allow a great university to dishonor itself?

.... I see that a number of the emails quoted in the WRAL blog provide an answer to several of my [and other posters'] questions, and in a way that does some parts of the UNC family very proud. Good for them, good for the flagship university of the state of North Carolina, and good for the state itself.

It's possible that we Duke loyalists can and should praise forthrightly those who stood up for honesty and integrity. For all our head-scratching re "Where are the sensible people over in that crowd," turns out there were some, they spoke up, and seem to have made a key difference.

[SmartDevil]

OK, Davis gone, Baddour gone....NCAA proceedings to unfold to their conclusion.

But what about the legal investigation into what was going on with those cars? How did some of those players pay for the cars, sometimes more than one car? Why were individual cars re-registered multiple times? Why were multiple cars "churned?"

Was there some great scheme involving the dealership? Was there money laundering involved? Was there insurance fraud or other types of fraud? What was the full scope of any criminal activity? And who benefited?

While if there was criminal activity (particularly money laundering) it probably was a "conventional" crime, I'd like to see a thorough investigation of what role any UNC staff or alumni/sports boosters had in it. And there's one more very, very remote possibility I don't even want to mention.

In the smaller but more immediate context, what were the financial terms of the players "having" those cars? Did the players violate state law? Did they comply with all tax obligations including income tax on funds received?

I hope the state and Feds are thoroughly investigating.